| 00:01.48 | raduga | what do you run on your Z? |
| 00:02.21 | koyote | I don't at the moment, sold my 750 |
| 00:02.49 | koyote | currently debating a used 760, or a US model SL-6000, or trying to find a SL6000W |
| 00:03.24 | org[laptop] | raduga - I'm running cacko qt |
| 00:03.28 | org[laptop] | on my 760 |
| 00:06.00 | koyote | I think I'll end up with the 6000, since I'll end up using a pocketop keyboard. |
| 00:06.17 | koyote | and built in wireless... mmmmm |
| 00:08.06 | raduga | org: do you use desktop sync at all? |
| 00:13.46 | org[laptop] | yes, with a win2k laptop and outlook |
| 00:13.48 | org[laptop] | at work |
| 00:13.54 | org[laptop] | I don't sync at home at all |
| 00:14.15 | raduga | org: what version of qtopia desktop do you have at work? |
| 00:14.48 | raduga | (the 5500 or 5600 sharp one?) |
| 00:15.49 | org[laptop] | 760 with qtopia 1.6.2 (I think) |
| 00:19.21 | raduga | org: can you check? |
| 00:19.38 | raduga | (is your 760 handy?) |
| 00:20.46 | chris420 | raduga: have you tried updating qtopia desktop from here? http://www.trolltech.com/download/qtopia/ |
| 00:23.35 | raduga | chris420: that's the newer trolltech qtopia; it's not compatible with Sharp 3.1 based roms |
| 00:23.42 | raduga | i.e. cacko, and pretty much everything else |
| 00:25.46 | chris420 | k.. have you even bothered to try it? |
| 00:27.43 | raduga | erm. it does *not* work. It uses xml, and sharp's v1.54 all use dtm |
| 00:27.48 | chris420 | i used that wiht my 5500 3.3.5 which was based off the sharp kernel, only thing that would work |
| 00:28.30 | raduga | new sharp kernel or old sharp kernel? |
| 00:29.02 | chris420 | 2.4.18 |
| 00:29.48 | koyote | has anyone got gcc and/or emacs running on any stable variant on any Z? |
| 00:32.30 | raduga | eh. |
| 00:32.48 | trowney | yay, finally multisync is working with evolution !! lol |
| 00:33.14 | trowney | oops, sorry people, i was so excited after all the hardwork, kinda got carried away ; ) |
| 00:35.06 | koyote | yeah, see. i always get that answer |
| 00:36.02 | koyote | too much time trying to make embedded linux as PDAlike as windows CE, no time left to think about having a Real Computer in your pocket. |
| 00:36.18 | koyote | well, i'll buy another Z and try again :) |
| 00:37.11 | trowney | koyote, you seem to bring up a philosophical issue here |
| 00:37.33 | koyote | it's a big one in my life |
| 00:37.36 | koyote | actually, two |
| 00:37.41 | trowney | it seems that there are only two kinds of people who buy zaurus |
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| 00:37.54 | koyote | one is the habit of the OSS community to try and bring *nix *down* to the MS level. |
| 00:38.07 | koyote | the second is the idea that a PDA ca be more powerful than my HP48 :) |
| 00:38.15 | trowney | well Z _is_ a PDA |
| 00:38.37 | koyote | it is a 400MHZ cpu with RAM and a VA screen, running *nix |
| 00:38.45 | trowney | i mean it's possible to run gcc and all that fancy dev stuff on zaurus |
| 00:38.52 | trowney | but still it's gotta do basic PDA functions |
| 00:38.53 | koyote | it's more powerful than a full fledged $10,000 sun workstation of 12 years ago |
| 00:39.10 | trowney | koyote, oh yeah, no question about it |
| 00:39.22 | trowney | koyote, technically mine runs 206Mhz but still ; ) |
| 00:39.22 | koyote | basic PDA functions were invented by people who thought calculators were too complicated for users. |
| 00:39.27 | chris420 | the z is much more than a PDA lol |
| 00:39.42 | trowney | yeah i know |
| 00:39.47 | koyote | I've been doing handhelds since about 1979 |
| 00:39.54 | trowney | what i was saying is that Z is not only a linux in pocket |
| 00:39.58 | trowney | but it is also a PDA |
| 00:40.16 | trowney | it is not _just_ a pda |
| 00:40.27 | trowney | it is pda _and_ much more, that's what i'm saying |
| 00:40.30 | koyote | it is also a pda, but a mac is 'also an apple' |
| 00:40.49 | trowney | so it doesn't mean that tryiing to make Z doing some basic PDA stuff is bring it down to winCE level |
| 00:40.51 | chris420 | k point taken heh |
| 00:41.16 | koyote | trowney: you misunderstand, i think, where i'm coming from |
| 00:41.25 | trowney | having linux in my pocket is really cool tho ; ) |
| 00:41.28 | koyote | i'm not complaining that having an address book is bad or anything |
| 00:41.47 | trowney | koyote, ah, i c, then i admit i misunderstood |
| 00:41.50 | koyote | but- for example- a linux without even a TERMINAL in the standard install? |
| 00:42.08 | trowney | thought you were saying people using Z as PDA is bring it down to winCE or palm |
| 00:42.16 | koyote | and the first time I asked for gcc in oz, i was informed that a Z 'didn't have the power' to compile on. |
| 00:42.21 | chris420 | its not standard because they didnt have rom space, thats why it comes on cd as extra applications heh |
| 00:42.29 | trowney | koyote, well alright, that's kinda odd in my opinion too |
| 00:42.47 | trowney | chris420, for "advanced" users ; ) |
| 00:42.55 | chris420 | true there also |
| 00:42.55 | trowney | console is considered a power tool i guess ; ) |
| 00:43.18 | trowney | but still you gotta gain ubiquity first whenever you make some kind of product |
| 00:43.26 | trowney | and for most of the people, Z is pda |
| 00:43.51 | trowney | even if it is capable of a lot more things, for the users who do know a lot more things than average joe |
| 00:43.52 | koyote | I dont' dis the pda aspects, but the idea that 1: you HAVE to have a desktop (to get console on the first time, for example), and that you don't allow a strong high level scripting/macro/programming capability because"it's only a pda" |
| 00:44.04 | koyote | I havne't met an average joe with a Z yet :) |
| 00:44.29 | trowney | koyote, heh, alright another mis-conception there ;) |
| 00:45.03 | trowney | koyote, but i did see a lot of people complaining how hard Z is to use compared to palm ;) |
| 00:45.12 | koyote | i actually have a broader problem with the idea that all of us int he computer world are assigning these roles to the user. |
| 00:45.24 | trowney | i saw ebay auction that someone was selling brandnew Z because he didn't have time for this "bullshit" ; ) |
| 00:45.41 | koyote | the palm is less powerful, in functional terms, than my hp48GX. |
| 00:45.50 | koyote | it's a fantastic phone book and alarm clock |
| 00:45.57 | trowney | yup |
| 00:46.18 | koyote | if we go back a bit before palm, say to HP, we see a different idea |
| 00:46.38 | koyote | the 95LX and 200LX, were desktop compatible DOs based machines |
| 00:47.02 | koyote | a bit slower, and the screens were only cga (at a time when EGA was big and VGA was becoming big) |
| 00:47.18 | koyote | but they were- and were sold as- real computers. |
| 00:47.32 | koyote | s people expected the same level of "difficulty" as on their desktop |
| 00:48.20 | koyote | but they also could run the same exact software as their desktop. so no translations or special syncs, just move the files via network of floppy, like you do with desktops |
| 00:48.45 | trowney | cool |
| 00:48.47 | koyote | so i guess maybe i nver bought into the paradigm of the PDA |
| 00:48.57 | trowney | at least they didn't have problem with syncing Z with my gentoo box |
| 00:49.26 | koyote | I've had a pocketable PC of some type since 91 (and before that, pocketable BASIC machines), and I'm spoiled. |
| 00:49.45 | koyote | I never sync unless i have to to install software. :) |
| 00:49.47 | trowney | heh, didn't know those things were around at that time |
| 00:50.08 | trowney | well i sync my Z with evolution to keep my data on both identical |
| 00:50.17 | koyote | yeah, my first one was a 834 word RAM machine in 1979. pocket sized, had rs232 serial for i/o |
| 00:50.22 | trowney | also it's a means of backup too |
| 00:50.35 | koyote | I do backups |
| 00:50.44 | trowney | nice 834 _word_ RAM |
| 00:51.03 | koyote | but i tend to do all my writing on the 200LX, for example- and i never sync. i just use an external keyboard at home |
| 00:51.12 | koyote | yeah. words of RAM. crazy days |
| 00:51.24 | trowney | i can see why you're complaining about people who aren't capable of using Z to it's full extent but still own |
| 00:51.35 | koyote | I still sometimes use my upgraded 16K shapr BASIC handheld for fun |
| 00:51.53 | koyote | well, people can do whatever. I just want the regular stnadard OS on the Z :) |
| 00:52.09 | koyote | i want perl and gcc and emacs, evne if it does take a while to compile. |
| 00:52.37 | trowney | well wouldn't emacs not really readable on Z because of display size constraint? |
| 00:52.49 | koyote | nah, the screen is fine |
| 00:53.16 | koyote | emacs in a 640x480 window is great (and you can use emacs fonts to make it even better) |
| 00:53.16 | trowney | first time i saw real console mode of Z, i was really impressed but soon it became really painful to keep reading small texts |
| 00:54.08 | koyote | yeah, on my 750 in landscape it was fine |
| 00:54.10 | trowney | ah right you got 700 somethign model i guess |
| 00:54.37 | trowney | i got 5500 : ) i'm a poor college student |
| 00:54.42 | koyote | yeah. 640x480 is a must. |
| 00:54.48 | trowney | by the way 6000 came out |
| 00:54.57 | koyote | conics has used 700s for fairly cheap |
| 00:55.03 | koyote | yeah i've been looking at it |
| 00:55.07 | trowney | it was posted on slashdot about couple of days ago |
| 00:55.33 | koyote | sold my 750, debating a 760 used or a US model sl6000, oor maybe trying to find a SL6000W |
| 00:55.38 | trowney | yeah i mean 640X480 is 4 times in size compared to 320X240 |
| 00:55.39 | koyote | can't find one, though. |
| 00:56.01 | trowney | does 6000 come with 640 display? |
| 00:56.18 | koyote | *nods* |
| 00:56.24 | trowney | it was $700 on amazon.com, damn expensive |
| 00:56.33 | koyote | taht is one major reason for the price tag |
| 00:56.34 | trowney | i'd go for desknote with that kinda money and install gentoo on it |
| 00:56.58 | koyote | the CG silicon display is just amazing. the 700 would be worth the 4300 just to have that added |
| 00:57.22 | koyote | too big. I've looked at a libtretto L2, though |
| 00:57.29 | koyote | still pretty huge |
| 00:57.57 | koyote | the old libretto 110 is nice, but p2/233 with a max of 64MB ram and 2 hours battery. guh |
| 00:58.34 | trowney | ugh |
| 00:58.39 | trowney | desknote's pretty huge |
| 00:58.49 | trowney | i saw this new laptop from asus |
| 00:58.57 | trowney | forgot the name but it was just plain awesome |
| 00:59.01 | koyote | I'm very firm about the portability. i have a ibook which is never there when i need it |
| 00:59.07 | koyote | because it's not in my pocket |
| 00:59.17 | trowney | true |
| 00:59.39 | trowney | is it practical to have linux installed on laptop? |
| 00:59.50 | trowney | i've been thinking about it but have never experienced |
| 01:00.13 | trowney | i mean there are a lot of pakcages and stuff but still not sure it would quite work well as laptop, with various constraints |
| 01:00.34 | koyote | I've had laptops with linux |
| 01:00.39 | koyote | i prefer netbsd |
| 01:00.42 | koyote | but they work fine |
| 01:00.52 | koyote | I gave up on desktops long ago :) |
| 01:00.58 | trowney | heh |
| 01:01.04 | koyote | macs, of course, have a REALLY solid unix inside |
| 01:01.17 | koyote | but a 12 inch ibook is so huge. in pocket terms |
| 01:01.25 | trowney | dunno i still like tweaking in hardware levels, something that laptop users can't easily afford to do |
| 01:01.37 | trowney | true |
| 01:07.04 | koyote | i get all the tweaking i can ask for at work |
| 01:07.17 | koyote | i want my personal machine- the one where my data matters- to be stable |
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| 01:52.53 | *** join/#zaurus org[laptop] (~offroadge@dsl092-250-033.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:56.43 | *** join/#zaurus oberon (oberon@dediziert.org) |
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| 02:44.09 | absentia | anyone alive? |