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| 02:08.10 | Reddog-[Away] | nope |
| 02:08.17 | kairi-sama | feh. |
| 02:08.40 | Reddog-[Away] | not safe, but you could try anyways |
| 02:21.35 | kaplanfx | where can I find a good writeup about cross compiling a package for the zaurus (pref on debian)? |
| 02:21.46 | kairi-sama | i wouldn't mind helping you out. |
| 02:22.01 | kaplanfx | its for pocketworkstation so I don't think I need any of the qtopia libs or anything |
| 02:22.11 | kairi-sama | nod, sweet. |
| 02:22.17 | kaplanfx | yeah? |
| 02:22.27 | kairi-sama | you could probably get by with the toolchain that was once at docs.zaurus.com |
| 02:22.30 | kaplanfx | well I am trying to build dillo .8 |
| 02:22.54 | kaplanfx | doesn't exist anymore |
| 02:23.13 | kairi-sama | indeed. but there was a time that zone was down, then returned. |
| 02:23.17 | kaplanfx | anyhow, I have been able to build dillo on my debian box, so I have a the libs I need |
| 02:23.19 | kairi-sama | dillo...noble effort :) |
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| 02:24.01 | kaplanfx | yeah .8 renders pages way better than .73 which is what I have now, ex ~ slashdot |
| 02:24.16 | kaplanfx | so I need a toolchain, rather than an arm ver of gcc? |
| 02:24.22 | kairi-sama | waiting for netbsd pkgsrc to update that :-/ |
| 02:24.30 | kairi-sama | ah, since you said workstation... |
| 02:24.33 | kairi-sama | erm, pocket workstation |
| 02:24.38 | kairi-sama | i guess you could go about it natively. |
| 02:24.40 | kaplanfx | yeah |
| 02:25.52 | kaplanfx | I've been checking the web, but all my searches are coming up on usegroup posts, no articles |
| 02:25.57 | kairi-sama | well feh, until i have a C-7x0 and 256MB SD card, i probably won't be able to assist you beyond the obvious stuff. |
| 02:26.49 | kairi-sama | though i wouldn't mind trying it over NFS. |
| 02:27.27 | kaplanfx | hmm |
| 02:28.10 | eric | Hi All.. I just got my Z, an SL-5600. It's great! I'm eagerly awaiting the next stable OZ release. Alas, I've run into an issue with Qtopia -- |
| 02:28.32 | eric | Syncing seems to work fine, but no matter what I do, I can't seem to be able to upload documents from my Linux box to my Z |
| 02:28.48 | eric | From what the docs say, |
| 02:29.01 | eric | it sounds like I should see files when I click the "Documents" button in Qtopia |
| 02:29.14 | eric | there-in lies the problem... it's all blank :-) |
| 02:29.45 | eric | I'm curious what sort of silliness I'm doing wrong... :-) |
| 02:30.12 | kaplanfx | this looks promising: http://emdebian.sourceforge.net/ |
| 02:30.15 | kairi-sama | how experienced are you with *nix? |
| 02:30.19 | sheenmaster | eric: Documents is s evil. |
| 02:30.31 | sheenmaster | eric: Just rsync it over, then you get compatiblity with everything. |
| 02:30.38 | kaplanfx | kairi-sama: were you asking me? |
| 02:30.40 | eric | Oh yeah? Okay, easy enough :-) |
| 02:30.44 | kairi-sama | nay, eric |
| 02:30.51 | kaplanfx | yeah thats what I thought |
| 02:30.59 | sheenmaster | eric: you need to have an ssh daemon, standard w/ oz, and rsync, a package in oz |
| 02:31.12 | eric | kairi-sama: I'm fairly familar with it... |
| 02:31.42 | kairi-sama | aye, the first obvious question is, are things actually in $HOME/documents, /mnt/{card,cf}/Documents, et al? ;x |
| 02:32.06 | kairi-sama | i was subject to much frustration when I realized things actually had to be in $HOME/Documents. :-/ |
| 02:32.14 | kairi-sama | for them to be visible in Qtopia, that is. |
| 02:32.17 | sheenmaster | eric: How many times do you call solaris 9 a bitch before replacing most of the sysv commands with gnu ones? |
| 02:32.22 | eric | sheenmaster: Sweet. That's cool, I didn't realize that was the "good" way of doing that |
| 02:32.27 | eric | kairi-sama: aha... |
| 02:32.38 | eric | lol |
| 02:32.47 | eric | that is pretty silly :-) |
| 02:32.48 | sheenmaster | kairi-sama: you sure? It always found my gcc headers, source code, and other junk in directories other than $WHATEVER/Documents |
| 02:33.21 | kairi-sama | ah, nod, are they on the same medium, though? |
| 02:33.27 | sheenmaster | If you want to wait a while, try an 80G NFS mount on your zaurus with the docs tab on. |
| 02:33.44 | kairi-sama | heh heh... |
| 02:33.48 | sheenmaster | kairi-sama: subdirectories of sd, before I all but fried that card and moved it into my calculator |
| 02:33.57 | eric | sheenmaster: WEll, I'm more of a Linux-geek, so I don't spend too much time complaining about the Solaris tools ;-) |
| 02:34.07 | kairi-sama | ah, well that sucks ;x |
| 02:35.00 | sheenmaster | eric: Linux doesn't support my fibre channel drives, and I"m too busy to add support myself. |
| 02:35.00 | kairi-sama | heh...i'm the type who would be replacing GNU tools ;x |
| 02:35.00 | sheenmaster | eric: it's an E3500, 8 processor UltraSparcII with 4G of ram |
| 02:35.27 | sheenmaster | 9:35pm up 17 days 9:34, 4 users, load average: 8.26, 8.24, 8.23 |
| 02:35.31 | sheenmaster | I try to keep it busy. |
| 02:35.32 | eric | kairi-sama: I may be mixed up with something... my original idea (before sheenmaster shined some light on me) was to upload something from my Linux box to my Z. NOw that I look, there is something in $HOME/Documents on my Linux box, where I'm running Qtopia Desktop. |
| 02:35.39 | eric | sheenmaster: woah, nice specs :-) |
| 02:35.48 | kairi-sama | aye |
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| 02:36.05 | sheenmaster | Yeah, but my zaurus has a better video controller. |
| 02:36.19 | sheenmaster | How had, before I removed the last one from the E3500. 8-bit just doesn't cut it. |
| 02:36.19 | eric | heh |
| 02:36.24 | sheenmaster | Or* |
| 02:36.46 | sheenmaster | For $6,000 I could go 24-bit. (Do they think I've lost my friggin mind!?) |
| 02:38.30 | kairi-sama | Hrm. |
| 02:40.16 | kairi-sama | I wonder, is there a binutils ipk for Sharp ROMs? |
| 02:41.18 | sheenmaster | You could make one with gentoo. |
| 02:41.31 | sheenmaster | I think it's just included with the gcc packages, rather than distributed separately. |
| 02:41.52 | kairi-sama | mmm, nod |
| 02:42.06 | sheenmaster | Those that want an object linker on their zaurus, but not a compiler, usually know how to compile it on their own. |
| 02:42.16 | kairi-sama | yeah...i did that :-/ |
| 02:42.22 | kairi-sama | just wondering if there was a demand for it. |
| 02:43.09 | sheenmaster | I'd say not, but you might as well release it. |
| 02:43.36 | kairi-sama | indeed. now the important question, /usr or /usr/local? |
| 02:44.01 | sheenmaster | neither |
| 02:44.10 | sheenmaster | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:45.30 | kairi-sama | i've never tried installing a package on a CF or SD card (too many valuable oggs for me to mke2fs), so is that the convention? |
| 02:45.35 | kairi-sama | i'll take that as a 'yes' |
| 02:46.05 | sheenmaster | I don't know, it's just what I'd prefer. |
| 02:46.23 | treke|home | kairi-sama, /usr is your best bet |
| 02:46.57 | kairi-sama | aye |
| 02:47.32 | treke|home | /mnt/card/usr makes it tougher for the user to install it wherver they want it :) |
| 02:48.04 | kairi-sama | hehe, nod |
| 02:48.28 | kairi-sama | i guess if people wanted to use binutils with gcc, they'd get a full gcc package, so I'm not worried about delving into symlink hell to make things work either way |
| 02:48.54 | treke|home | make your ipk conflict with gcc |
| 02:48.55 | kairi-sama | though it will be a bit tricky to convince the binutils autoconf script to put /usr/arm-linux somewhere else, since that would be read-only on earlier ROMs |
| 02:48.59 | kairi-sama | nod |
| 02:49.13 | treke|home | ipkg will probably ignore the conflict, but that isnt your problem |
| 02:49.47 | sheenmaster | heh |
| 02:49.56 | sheenmaster | reminds me of my policies regarding windows ports |
| 02:50.07 | kairi-sama | snicker |
| 02:50.10 | sheenmaster | "Windows is gonna barf on this, but that isn't my problem." |
| 02:50.48 | treke|home | not kairi-sama's fault that half the roms out there use a crappy copy of ipkg that never should have been used in the first place :) |
| 02:51.36 | kairi-sama | treke|home, in my experience, it was always the GUI frontend to ipkg that showed me the greatest apathy, ipkg itself was fine. |
| 02:51.54 | treke|home | kairi-sama, Ipkg itself is equally broken :) |
| 02:52.38 | sheenmaster | Assuming that I remain unemployed, you can expect a better solution in a few months. |
| 02:53.10 | treke|home | ipkg itself is signficantly better than the old one |
| 02:53.29 | treke|home | The problem is sharp uses a 2 or 3 year old release of it from before it was completly rewritten |
| 02:53.56 | sheenmaster | Cleanly packages, multi-platform build system. You can build from any platform to any platform, and packages are not separated between platforms. That means that your zaurus can easily grab a zaurus->OpenBSD/Sparc64 cross compiler if it needs it. |
| 02:54.27 | sheenmaster | Furthermore, binary versions are maintained on the package server because it can so easily cross compiler. |
| 02:57.04 | kairi-sama | aye. good luck :) |
| 02:57.34 | sheenmaster | Actually, I hope I get employed and this all falls apart. |
| 02:57.52 | kairi-sama | like i said, good luck on either account |
| 02:58.13 | sheenmaster | thx. Forgive me for wanting tuition over oss success. |
| 02:58.13 | eric | Are we a long ways off from the next stable release of OZ (which would support SL-5600), or is there a release right around the corner? I'm hoping for a solid platform, but I'm not sure how long I can wait before trying it out :-) |
| 02:58.51 | kairi-sama | i wouldn't mind taking your place until i make it out to japan ;x |
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| 02:59.10 | treke|home | sheenmaster, So basically You are planning to build openembedded |
| 02:59.30 | sheenmaster | treke|home: no, this is very different. |
| 02:59.43 | treke|home | what you described sounds like exactly like openembedded |
| 03:00.54 | sheenmaster | treke|home: does OE have loaded package support? Source as well as binary dependency chains? Selective patching to negotiate platform incompatibilities? |
| 03:02.03 | treke|home | loaded package support? |
| 03:02.07 | treke|home | What would that be |
| 03:02.28 | treke|home | OE has no problem with selectivly modifying packages for different platforms |
| 03:02.36 | treke|home | and it does handle source dependencies |
| 03:02.46 | sheenmaster | I can have one package, foo.lith. That package can contain source code, a single copy of cross-platform data, and executables for multiple platforms. |
| 03:03.55 | treke|home | It doesnt at the moment. Sounds plenty doable though |
| 03:04.19 | sheenmaster | does it still use ipk packages? |
| 03:04.25 | treke|home | It can |
| 03:04.35 | treke|home | or debs |
| 03:04.36 | treke|home | or rpms |
| 03:04.40 | treke|home | or tarballs |
| 03:05.42 | sheenmaster | How are packages defined in source form? |
| 03:06.01 | treke|home | By a .oe file |
| 03:06.54 | sheenmaster | And that handles cross compilation to multiple architectures and operating systems? |
| 03:07.29 | treke|home | yup |
| 03:07.36 | kairi-sama | heh, opening a can of worms here, it would rock if there were a binary loader similar to that of Mach-O for palmtops, for things like FAT binaries |
| 03:07.57 | kairi-sama | well, not just for palmtops. |
| 03:08.05 | treke|home | http://openembedded.bkbits.net:8080/packages/anno/tximage/tximage_0.2.oe@1.1?nav=index.html|src/|src/tximage |
| 03:08.10 | treke|home | as an example of a .oe |
| 03:09.52 | sheenmaster | I'll take a look at OE's features when I get a chance. |
| 03:10.04 | sheenmaster | Is anyone working on a real distro with it, or just palmtop distros? |
| 03:10.21 | treke|home | Mostly being used for embedded stuff |
| 03:10.31 | treke|home | since that's what kergoth and schuring need |
| 03:10.53 | kairi-sama | I find my FAT binary idea rather hot...hm. That would take a lot of work and gladhanding to pull off, though. |
| 03:11.06 | treke|home | kairi-sama, Palm did it |
| 03:11.14 | treke|home | kairi-sama, Seems like a waste of space to me |
| 03:11.24 | sheenmaster | I find it rediculus in binaries, but brilliant in packages. |
| 03:11.30 | kairi-sama | well of course Palm did it, which is why I feel like it. |
| 03:11.42 | sheenmaster | six distros in 1.3 times the space of one distro. |
| 03:11.49 | kairi-sama | I'm not talking the whole distro here ;x |
| 03:11.53 | sheenmaster | a/distros/archs/ |
| 03:12.03 | treke|home | sheenmaster, kergoth and I both use it to build packages for our desktops |
| 03:12.12 | sheenmaster | kairi-sama: palm doesn't even have a filesystem! |
| 03:12.17 | kairi-sama | I know ;x |
| 03:13.46 | kairi-sama | s/a\/distros\/archs\//s\/distros\/archs\// |
| 03:13.48 | kairi-sama | heh, couldn't resist. |
| 03:16.06 | kairi-sama | okay, I see your reasoning for doing it in the package rather than the binary itself, writing a new object loader for the kernel, as well as linker would be a bitch. |
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| 03:17.19 | sheenmaster | You wouldn't have to do that, you could just write a new type of link. |
| 03:17.32 | kairi-sama | sorry for being an ignoramus, but I'm interested in the implementation specifics, like, how would the data be separated? like x86/usr/lib/libstupid.so and arm/usr/lib/libstupid.so, et al? |
| 03:17.53 | sheenmaster | A special file, defined by an extended parameter. When that parameter is set, and the file is read, only part of it is returned. |
| 03:17.54 | kairi-sama | and noarch/usr/share, of course |
| 03:18.00 | kairi-sama | ahhh. |
| 03:18.32 | kairi-sama | that sounds clever. |
| 03:18.44 | sheenmaster | In my implementation, we separate things like Docs, Data, and Bins. Bins will be Bins.all or Bind.$ARCH |
| 03:18.51 | sheenmaster | or several Bins.$ARCH |
| 03:18.59 | sheenmaster | s/Bind/Bins/ |
| 03:19.55 | kairi-sama | Would they be directories in separate tarballs within one archive, or all in the same tarball? |
| 03:20.38 | sheenmaster | Compressed tarballs within a zip. |
| 03:22.12 | kairi-sama | why compress twice? |
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| 03:24.18 | sheenmaster | kairi-sama: you don't |
| 03:24.30 | sheenmaster | kairi-sama: zips are easy to grab things out of, and tarballs compress better |
| 03:24.32 | sheenmaster | so we use both |
| 03:24.46 | sheenmaster | then wrap the whole thing in a gpg packet |
| 03:26.06 | kairi-sama | wait, I thought you said that you would have compressed tarballs inside of the zip archive, like, .tar.gz or .tgz files. Do you actually mean tarballs (.tar) that are compressed as a result of being in a zip archive? |
| 03:26.22 | sheenmaster | you can do that too |
| 03:26.33 | sheenmaster | the files are .tar, .tar.gz, or .tar.bz2 |
| 03:26.46 | sheenmaster | the zip file is usually not compressed |
| 03:27.10 | kairi-sama | if you want to go through that trouble, why not have a tarball of compressed tarballs? |
| 03:27.20 | kairi-sama | but, then again, zip will exist in the default installation... |
| 03:28.09 | sheenmaster | zips aren't linear, so it's faster to grab individual files out of them than with a tar |
| 03:28.20 | kairi-sama | good point |
| 03:28.22 | sheenmaster | that's why Java uses jars |
| 03:29.00 | kairi-sama | but, what's the benefit if there are relatively few files inside of the zip archive? |
| 03:29.19 | kairi-sama | heh, sorry to be devil's advocate here :-/ |
| 03:29.20 | sheenmaster | what's the benefit of a tar? |
| 03:29.26 | sheenmaster | We fought over this for months. |
| 03:29.33 | kairi-sama | ubiquity? :-/ |
| 03:30.13 | kairi-sama | forgive me if i haven't read the mailing lists thoroughly. |
| 03:31.15 | sheenmaster | you're forgiven |
| 03:35.15 | kairi-sama | heh...boy, do the new openssh ipks on killefiz.de suck. |
| 03:36.23 | kairi-sama | hosed permissions/ownership for /etc, /home, countless others |
| 03:41.45 | kairi-sama | Anyhow. If I were to jump into the Zaurus development community, do you recommend any place in particular? |
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