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| 00:28.00 | lfm | hello ... Is there anyway of getting usbnet working after suspending the Z ? |
| 00:28.13 | lfm | The only way I can get it to work is by rebooting the zaurus . |
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| 03:08.34 | yoyospado | the 6000 must be comming out soon.. we're gettina eval version next week .. woo hoo |
| 03:09.00 | yoyospado | and we got the 5600 about two weeks early |
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| 03:15.07 | Jed | Guys come into #MER and say CONSPIRACY!!! |
| 03:15.47 | Jed | pplease there is an idiot guy in there who believes in NASA Conspiracies |
| 03:15.48 | *** part/#zaurus Jed (~hmm@ool-182c597e.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 03:20.14 | warmi_away | NASA conspiracies ..? that's nothing .. I read about a survey where 1/3 of Germans believed US goverment was behind 9/11 .. |
| 03:32.52 | warmi_away | eh ... people are nuts .. |
| 03:33.23 | warmi_away | like these idiots who trampled each other the other day at Mecca because "satan was after them' or something like that .. |
| 03:34.31 | MG_Tak | or the people who blow up abortion centers because God is against it. |
| 03:35.01 | warmi_away | heh |
| 03:35.47 | MG_Tak | or people who back their government's case for a war based on shoddy evidence and fail to honestly question it after the fact |
| 03:36.58 | warmi_away | I see you define "nuts" to everyone who doesn't share your point of view |
| 03:37.04 | MG_Tak | Nah. |
| 03:37.19 | MG_Tak | I define nuts as people who fail to question their own point of view. |
| 03:37.47 | MG_Tak | People who follow blindly because someone else told them to. |
| 03:37.54 | treke|wherever | that isnt a nut |
| 03:37.57 | treke|wherever | that's a sheep |
| 03:38.01 | treke|wherever | big difference |
| 03:38.16 | MG_Tak | In the case where the sheep does very stupid things, it can become a nutty sheep |
| 03:38.52 | MG_Tak | But then again, I also consider pouring "holy" water on the forehead of a kid nuts too, so who'm I to judge. |
| 03:41.08 | warmi_away | a nutty sheep - heh , interesting concept |
| 03:41.35 | MG_Tak | Maybe it's because it wasn't seeing too well, but it sure as hell ran into some random things. |
| 03:42.44 | warmi_away | there is a virtue in questioning ones point of view - but only if it is done in order to find the best possible solution .... |
| 03:43.07 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: I think questioning your point of view to avoid a bad decision is a virtue too. |
| 03:43.33 | MG_Tak | a point of view should be questioned and adhered to or rejected. |
| 03:43.44 | MG_Tak | not adhered to or rejected and then maybe questioned later |
| 03:45.25 | warmi_away | won't happen .. not in this overly politicized world |
| 03:45.31 | MG_Tak | One of my coworkers was mad at me for critiquing his idea without providing my own better solution. |
| 03:45.33 | treke|wherever | I question many things, but never my spelling |
| 03:45.39 | treke|wherever | I know it's wrong |
| 03:45.50 | MG_Tak | I had a hard time getting him to understand that just because I don't have a better idea than his doesn't mean his idea is good. |
| 03:46.33 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: well, this sort of critique can rather quickly morhp into nihilizm |
| 03:46.37 | warmi_away | so maybe he has a point |
| 03:46.50 | warmi_away | nihilism even |
| 03:46.53 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: sometimes status quo is better than a bad decision |
| 03:47.44 | warmi_away | yeah, well - the trick is to know what is and what is not a bad or good decision |
| 03:48.05 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: evidently |
| 03:49.49 | warmi_away | was it right to go to a war to depose a tyrant even if it involved lying about the underlying couse just to get around a sceptic public ? |
| 03:49.51 | warmi_away | who knows .. |
| 03:50.13 | warmi_away | 50 years from now people will be able to answer that question |
| 03:50.40 | MG_Tak | I think there's a little bit more to the whole conflict than that. |
| 03:51.17 | warmi_away | history has been very kind to Roosvelt and his attempt to get around US political process in his support to UK |
| 03:51.24 | warmi_away | during first stages of WW2 |
| 03:51.54 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: you can hardly compare Hitler and Hussein. |
| 03:52.22 | warmi_away | it doesn't matter .... |
| 03:52.27 | MG_Tak | Yeah, actually it does. |
| 03:52.58 | MG_Tak | People now can justify that Hitler was a threat to all of Europe and possibly the West altogether. |
| 03:53.19 | MG_Tak | I'm quite convinced that you can give historians 300 years and they would fail to come to the same conclusion about Hussein. |
| 03:53.39 | warmi_away | so what ? the question is : was it worth it ? |
| 03:53.52 | warmi_away | will people in IRaq be better off without this moonbat running the place ? |
| 03:54.10 | MG_Tak | Which eventually could end up making the war in Iraq seem politcally motivated as opposed to WWII involvement which was much less questionable. |
| 03:54.23 | MG_Tak | Umm, well right now, they aren't exactly better off. |
| 03:54.28 | warmi_away | politically motivated ? every damn war is politically motivated |
| 03:54.32 | warmi_away | not better off ? |
| 03:54.35 | warmi_away | are you nuts ? |
| 03:54.46 | MG_Tak | In the immediate future? |
| 03:54.56 | MG_Tak | Are you aware of how many people there still have no electricity? |
| 03:55.27 | warmi_away | yeah, but that's minor ... on the other hand there are tons of people who earn more money (teachers) etc ... |
| 03:55.32 | MG_Tak | That Shiite clerics are threatening to become the exact same thing as Hussein, but with 80% of the population as opposed to 20% Baathists. |
| 03:56.03 | warmi_away | well MG: were Germans better off after world war 2 ? |
| 03:56.10 | MG_Tak | No they weren't. |
| 03:56.17 | MG_Tak | Certainly not East Germany. |
| 03:56.37 | MG_Tak | West got helped out by the US mostly for fear that it would become Eastern instead. |
| 03:56.53 | warmi_away | so ? still , they got helped didn't they ? |
| 03:57.11 | MG_Tak | So Eastern Germany becomes inconsequential? |
| 03:57.35 | warmi_away | yeah well but was Eastern Germany fate fault of US ? |
| 03:57.59 | MG_Tak | Maybe, maybe not. |
| 03:58.20 | MG_Tak | But if you want to look at "results", look at South America and the crap the US has left there. |
| 03:58.34 | MG_Tak | Look at what happened in Iraq after the war in the 90s |
| 03:58.38 | warmi_away | yeah, yeah ... it was a fucking proxy war against soviets - all there is too it |
| 03:58.55 | warmi_away | whatever happened in Iraq in 90s was a direct result of that fuck Hussain |
| 03:59.18 | MG_Tak | uh, how about the fact that the US more or less pledge support to the Shiites.. then left them to be slaughtered |
| 03:59.18 | warmi_away | he was the one who invaded Kuwait and brought all this on himself and his people |
| 03:59.27 | MG_Tak | Man, grow up. |
| 03:59.30 | warmi_away | MG_Tak : that was a big mistake |
| 03:59.38 | MG_Tak | Whose big mistake? |
| 03:59.47 | warmi_away | US |
| 03:59.57 | warmi_away | they should have gotten away with Hussain back then |
| 04:00.11 | MG_Tak | Probably wasn't too profitable back then. |
| 04:00.26 | warmi_away | in fact it was Powell who was opposed to going all the way to Bagdad because of his concerns for coalition .. |
| 04:00.27 | MG_Tak | Hell, the US even asked Israel to stay out of the whole thing, if I remember correctly. |
| 04:00.44 | warmi_away | in other words, Europeans and other Arabs would not go along if US went all the way to Bagdad |
| 04:01.01 | warmi_away | they had no UN mandate for that |
| 04:01.14 | MG_Tak | didn't have one for the latest war either |
| 04:01.20 | MG_Tak | that didn't stop Junior though |
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| 04:01.52 | warmi_away | and rightfully so .. .as I said, it was a mistake back then to listen to UN and it would have been mistake now |
| 04:02.31 | warmi_away | UN is generally worthless ... |
| 04:02.38 | MG_Tak | To the US, yes. |
| 04:02.55 | warmi_away | it makes sense for countries like France to promote UN since this is the only forum where their voice matters |
| 04:03.18 | warmi_away | otherwise it is a club of mostly tyrants .. a fucking dictator has the same voice as a democratic nation |
| 04:03.22 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: the US voice matters less than France's throughout the world. |
| 04:03.34 | MG_Tak | US weapons matter more. |
| 04:03.40 | MG_Tak | And so does the US economy. |
| 04:03.40 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: hehehehe |
| 04:03.51 | MG_Tak | If that's what you want your country to be known for, that's great. |
| 04:04.06 | MG_Tak | But that's also what's making hundreds of people around the world become terrorists. |
| 04:04.17 | warmi_away | that's reality - no "sweet talking" has ever stopped determined criminal from anything |
| 04:04.21 | MG_Tak | doesn't it disturb you in the least that people can hate your country so much that they're willing to commit suicide to hit it? |
| 04:04.21 | warmi_away | only brute force can do that |
| 04:04.52 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: no , it doesn't ... just 50 years ago people hated Jews so much as to willing to set a fucking world on fire |
| 04:05.16 | MG_Tak | don't you think there's a little bit more to that than some really wacky Saudi guy on dialisys? |
| 04:05.28 | warmi_away | actually no ... |
| 04:05.41 | warmi_away | because this wacky guys is pretty serious |
| 04:05.48 | warmi_away | and you know what's funny ... or sad .. |
| 04:06.07 | warmi_away | that nations like France are trying to buy off their safety instead of standing up .. |
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| 04:06.22 | MG_Tak | That's certainly not what France is trying to do. |
| 04:06.46 | MG_Tak | Not that it's any better, but France has a very large Muslim population, so going after Muslim countries or groups is a bit of a no-no. |
| 04:06.51 | warmi_away | yeah ... I am sure France was just trying to prevent needless civilian casualties in Iraq when they went out of their way to oppose US |
| 04:07.16 | MG_Tak | Nope, the French government had its hands tied because they would've lost the next elections if they had gone to war. |
| 04:07.31 | MG_Tak | When 90% of your country opposes war, you don't have much of a choice. |
| 04:07.38 | warmi_away | I can understand voicing your disaproval . but France went far beyond that .. they actually went out of their way to block every US move they could |
| 04:07.48 | warmi_away | we are not talking about going to war .. |
| 04:08.02 | warmi_away | we are talking not sending your foreign minister to gather support against US |
| 04:08.31 | warmi_away | fuck that .. as even liberal New York Times admited .. these days France is not US ally, is not even neutral - it is outright enemy |
| 04:08.32 | MG_Tak | Ummmm.. |
| 04:08.50 | MG_Tak | You don't think the US did /any/ kind of PR to get countries to agree to the war..? |
| 04:09.44 | warmi_away | yes of course, and France had the same right to do what was in their interest |
| 04:10.12 | warmi_away | I don't question that |
| 04:10.29 | MG_Tak | Trust me, if France honestly thought that Iraq was a threat, they would've gone in with the US. |
| 04:10.37 | warmi_away | but only an idiot , after what France pulled off in UN ,can claim that we are talking here about an ally |
| 04:10.48 | MG_Tak | But only the US and a few countries out there really believed what the US was saying. |
| 04:11.06 | warmi_away | MG_Talk:you don't understand me ... as I said before , French coould have refused to support US in their war against Iraq |
| 04:11.13 | warmi_away | but THEY WENT FAR BEYOND that ? |
| 04:11.29 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: an ally fights along in your defense |
| 04:11.29 | warmi_away | do you understand ? they made it their policy to actively oppose US ? to what end ? |
| 04:12.41 | warmi_away | they did that because getting rid of Hussain was not in their best interest .. in other words, they had a pretty good relationship with that guy |
| 04:13.09 | MG_Tak | hmm |
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| 04:13.22 | MG_Tak | as opposed to the billions in contracts that are getting awarded to some companies to rebuild Iraq.. |
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| 04:13.35 | MG_Tak | so.. France had a good relationship with Iraq, and the US is setting up camp there. |
| 04:13.46 | warmi_away | yeah, what's wrong with that ... they are going to spend US money on rebuilding Iraq won't they ? |
| 04:14.00 | MG_Tak | Well, quite evidently, the US is in a much less questionable position. |
| 04:14.17 | warmi_away | It doesn't matter - France was willing to humiliate US in every way possible in defence of a fucking dictator .. .that speaks volumes |
| 04:14.22 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: let me put it this way, if it turns out that the US lost money, overall, by going to Iraq, I will be infinitely surprised. |
| 04:14.30 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: you are an idiot. |
| 04:14.36 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: France was not defending a dictator. |
| 04:14.57 | warmi_away | ah .. getting a bit agitated aren;t we ? |
| 04:15.09 | warmi_away | yeah, france was defending a fucking Santa Clause ... |
| 04:15.14 | MG_Tak | If that's really what you think, then you are really narrow minded. |
| 04:15.33 | W8TVI | screw france. they are mad becouse they lost some deals they had going with the old iraq |
| 04:15.34 | MG_Tak | Did you see anything in French or American headlines saying that France was sad that Hussein was captured? |
| 04:15.38 | MG_Tak | I don't think so. |
| 04:15.57 | W8TVI | no one wanted to do the right thing |
| 04:16.04 | warmi_away | MG_talk: hehe .. it doesn't matter dude .. they went out of their way to prevent US from deposing Hussain ... |
| 04:16.16 | warmi_away | you can deny that fact now can you ? |
| 04:16.34 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: no, they went out of their way to prevent a war that had some potential of ruining an already pretty unstable situation. |
| 04:17.06 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: all they wanted to do is just talk. |
| 04:17.13 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: really ? unstable situation ? the whole fucking Middle East was unstable because of Saddam and you have audacity to tell me that removing him would make matters worse ? |
| 04:17.36 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: I'm with warmi_away on this |
| 04:17.36 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: you really think Saddam is what makes matters bad in the Middle East? |
| 04:17.52 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: he damn well did |
| 04:18.01 | MG_Tak | I don't know man, go read some poli-sci books, go talk to some american professors. |
| 04:18.06 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: no .. he was a fucking Santa Clause bringing peace and prosperity to people of Irand and then Kuwait ... |
| 04:18.08 | MG_Tak | They'll very likely tell you otherwise. |
| 04:18.23 | MG_Tak | But then I guess they're commie traitors or something. |
| 04:18.28 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: he was killing HIS OWN FUCKY PEOPLE! |
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| 04:18.43 | MG_Tak | Who the /heck/ in all of the third world is not doing that? |
| 04:18.44 | W8TVI | s/fucky/fucken |
| 04:19.12 | warmi_away | yeah ... even French are doing that ... recently they left 10 000 of their own to die .. |
| 04:19.13 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: does that make it RIGHT? |
| 04:19.22 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: no |
| 04:19.24 | warmi_away | and they are such civilized society .. |
| 04:20.01 | MG_Tak | Can you guys argue without making really illogical points or are you just too stupid to actually say something smart? |
| 04:20.22 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: dude, it is you who is resorting to insults here ? |
| 04:20.37 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: the iraqis are now FREE |
| 04:20.45 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: what you're saying about France is nothing short of insulting to me, to be honest. |
| 04:20.56 | W8TVI | that isn't that a good enough reason to do it? |
| 04:21.43 | MG_Tak | The iraqis will be free when they elect their own government without said government turning into yet another dictatorship. |
| 04:21.52 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: what ? what is fucking insulting .. that french act like US enemy ? because they fuicking do .. .they always did .. evne fucking Clinton mention that "French will always do exactly opposite of whatever US is doing" |
| 04:21.53 | MG_Tak | That'll be a while. |
| 04:22.21 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: and if France had their way ... there would be still Hussain and his fucking sons running this god forsaken land |
| 04:22.27 | warmi_away | how would that be a better solution ? |
| 04:22.42 | MG_Tak | alright, I've had enough of this conversation |
| 04:22.53 | MG_Tak | You're too stupid to look a little bit beyond the 2 points you can only make. |
| 04:22.58 | MG_Tak | And I've got better shit to do. |
| 04:23.08 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: the US will do what they did in Japan. we will help them get back on their feet, not ask for them to repay us, and they will have freedom! |
| 04:23.10 | lfm | let's not forget who was friend of who in the war against Iran .... |
| 04:23.25 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: yeah .. you seem to always insult people when you can't cant drive your point .. |
| 04:23.40 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: when they're too fucking dense to listen? yeah, I do. |
| 04:24.05 | warmi_away | listen ? you mean take on your point of view ? |
| 04:24.06 | warmi_away | hehe |
| 04:24.14 | MG_Tak | nah, I mean actually listen |
| 04:24.18 | MG_Tak | which you seem quite incapable of |
| 04:24.45 | warmi_away | oh of course .. I am arguing against France ... I must be "incapable of listening" .. |
| 04:25.01 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: well apparently arguing against the US makes me an enemy |
| 04:25.03 | MG_Tak | go figure |
| 04:25.12 | W8TVI | warmi_away: the US should have let hitler keep france |
| 04:25.16 | warmi_away | everyone knows that French only care about peace and prosperity for the whole world |
| 04:25.19 | MG_Tak | lfm: let's not even go into who's been friends of who throughout history. :) |
| 04:25.33 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: you'll certainly never hear those words out of my mouth. |
| 04:25.50 | MG_Tak | I hate the French government, as a matter of fact, I hate most of French society and I live in the US. |
| 04:26.16 | MG_Tak | On the other hand, I've been taught to question what people around me do, which is mostly why I dislike France so much these days. |
| 04:26.17 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: listen dude .. you never gave a good answer as to why France insisted on keeping Saddam in power . instead you resorted to name calling and sending me to a "professor" |
| 04:26.24 | W8TVI | the rest of the world hates the US becouse the USA is the most powerfull county on the planet |
| 04:26.37 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: the whole point is, France didn't insist on keeping Saddam in power. |
| 04:26.42 | MG_Tak | France insisted on not having this war. |
| 04:26.48 | lfm | MG_Tak: just trying to be fair... war is economics. THe rest are excuses.. look at the Spanish Crusades, the Inquisition or the weapons of mass destructions... all excuses IMHO |
| 04:26.50 | MG_Tak | There's a really, really, REALLY big difference there. |
| 04:27.11 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: there are tons of things I hate about US ... I wasn't even born in this fucking country and I tend to see how much bullshit is there .. but there are things that Americans do right and liberating IRaq was one of them |
| 04:27.13 | MG_Tak | lfm: it's not purely economics but it's almost always self-interested |
| 04:27.16 | warmi_away | regardless of their true intentions |
| 04:28.20 | W8TVI | warmi_away: don't you love how people resort to saying that its beocouse of the oil when they cant come up with a good argument? |
| 04:28.29 | lfm | sure. Humanity is built on wars, no matter how simple or complex is the society.... nothing new.. todays friends are tomorrow foes... and viceversa |
| 04:29.05 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I actually think the same as what my poli sci prof said last year before the war. It's not just about the oil, that'd be too narrow minded. But the oil certainly doesn't hurt either. |
| 04:29.14 | MG_Tak | And I'm pretty sure some folks at Haliburton won't disagree |
| 04:29.20 | warmi_away | W8TVI : yeah ... just like US went to Korea to enslave these people and suck on their natural resources ... |
| 04:30.39 | W8TVI | we don't need their oil... and if anyone noticed, we are trying to get the oil indrustry back going again so it can help pay for rebuilding Iraq |
| 04:31.38 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I just get amused when people say the oil had nothing to do with it. |
| 04:31.38 | warmi_away | heeh ... if we are so fucking evil why didn't we keep France and Germany to ourselves instead of shelling out billions of dollars for reconstruction ... |
| 04:31.55 | treke|laptop | so, who's buying a 6000? |
| 04:32.00 | warmi_away | MG_Tak: of course it had .. more stable Middle East means less pressure on oil prices |
| 04:32.13 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: because a crapload of the money the US gets comes from trade with those two countries? |
| 04:32.25 | warmi_away | but it doesn't matter .. the bottom line I am trying to get out of you is the fact that liberating Iraq was a good thing |
| 04:32.28 | lfm | oh please.... Iraq is one of the largest producers of Oil after Saudi Arabia... it's pretty important... |
| 04:32.33 | W8TVI | and the terrorists are killing Iraqis and anyone else who get in the way |
| 04:32.43 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: that's kinda the point.. |
| 04:32.44 | lfm | let's not forget the food-for-oil campaign |
| 04:33.02 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: go ask Corsican terrorists if anyone listened to them while they were just blowing shit up without killing anyone. |
| 04:33.07 | lfm | oil is *very* important in the world economy. |
| 04:33.20 | MG_Tak | Then they killed 4 people in 2 years, boy oh boy, did that make a change. |
| 04:33.35 | W8TVI | lfm: that was so they wouldnt be getting money from us to build wepons |
| 04:34.03 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: and my point is that there's more to all of it than just liberating Iraq, and that we can't tell for several more years of Iraq's liberated or if it's just going to turn back into a hell hole with some other schmuck at the top. |
| 04:34.26 | lfm | they had old F-5 jets |
| 04:34.56 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: of course, we don't have a fucking oracle to tell us the future ... but getting rid of Saddam was the first step .. I mean , do you sincerely believe Iraq would somehow slowly "evolve" into respectable society with Saddam at the top ? |
| 04:35.09 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: no! I never said that! |
| 04:35.17 | W8TVI | and the people in europe seem to forget that the WTC was the WORLD Trade Center. Not the American Trade Center |
| 04:35.32 | warmi_away | of course there is a good chance another US administration will take over, pack up the shit and run |
| 04:35.45 | warmi_away | that would be a disaster ... but hey , nobody is perfect |
| 04:35.46 | warmi_away | heh |
| 04:35.49 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: and the people in the world forget that the WTC is really the "Most Western nations and a couple of up-and-coming ones." |
| 04:36.01 | W8TVI | people from all over the world died in the WTC |
| 04:36.24 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: you're going to have a hard time getting anyone outside the US and Canada to shed a tear for 3000 dead. |
| 04:36.40 | MG_Tak | The rest of the world has seen shit dozens of times worse, to be honest. |
| 04:36.49 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: yeah, because world is so fucked up 3000 dead means nothing these days |
| 04:37.02 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: you know how many people died in 2 days in the Iran quake? |
| 04:37.11 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk 40 K or something like that |
| 04:37.12 | lfm | how about looking at Sierra Leona and other countries where there are massive human right violations ? THis is for all the developed countries, not just US. As I said... it's all economics.... but is also reality and how the cookie crumbles. |
| 04:37.38 | W8TVI | lucky for the rest of the people that got out of the towers that they were so well built |
| 04:37.39 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: that's 13 times more. granted, it's accidental and that makes a huge difference. |
| 04:37.57 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: if they'd been built traditionally, they may not have collapsed |
| 04:38.04 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: and I have some bad news for you .. In France keep behaving like they are doing now ( banning muslim headscarfs ) they will see fucking Palestine style uprising on their own soil |
| 04:38.07 | warmi_away | mark my words |
| 04:38.29 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: I'm still debating that one, honestly. |
| 04:38.48 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: the percentage of French muslims that oppose those laws is actually smaller than people think |
| 04:38.57 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: built "traditionally" and they would have been down inside a minuet |
| 04:39.11 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I donno, I'm not an architect |
| 04:39.21 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: there is nothing to debate .. France failed in integrating these muslims instead relegating them into underclass living in fucking ghettos .... |
| 04:39.26 | *** join/#zaurus RedHat (~al@c-24-10-194-77.client.comcast.net) |
| 04:39.34 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: it's hard to comment on what's going on in France if you don't know a lot of history about it. |
| 04:39.40 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: they are saying now, that beocouse they way that they were made is the reason they stayed up so long |
| 04:39.43 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: that I agree with |
| 04:39.55 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I haven't kept up with that debate |
| 04:40.21 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: the tower that stayed up longer was hit by the plane going over 500Mph |
| 04:40.24 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: I'm talking about the whole scarves thing, not the fact that muslims were really screwed |
| 04:40.46 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I figured the one that stayed taller was the one that got hit highest because there was less weight on the damaged area |
| 04:40.52 | lfm | let's stop insulting societies. All cultures deserve respect. I think that's one of the major problems is developed countries... the lack of respect - out of ignorance - to other cultures. |
| 04:41.07 | MG_Tak | lfm: honestly, the French treatment of north africans deserves no respect |
| 04:41.34 | warmi_away | and this is precisely why they are resorting to such measures like bans .... beacuse they fear for their precious ballance between society and religion and are desperately trying to force muslims into this French social reality where religion plays no major role |
| 04:41.47 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: not exactly |
| 04:42.01 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: there's a very strong tradition of keeping religion out of schools unless the school is a religious one |
| 04:42.07 | warmi_away | and that is precisely wrong way to go about it - you need to try to integrate people , make them French - not ban their religious symbols |
| 04:42.19 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: they are French |
| 04:42.23 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: have you ever lived in France? |
| 04:42.44 | MG_Tak | I lived there most of my life. There's more to the issue than you can see from outside. |
| 04:42.48 | MG_Tak | It really is one nasty mess. |
| 04:42.50 | warmi_away | hah .. yueah , right ..... when was the last time a native French ventured into one of these getthos without police escort |
| 04:43.01 | lfm | you're right. But check the huge existing immigration in the South of France. Why people respect Zidane and not the poor homeless ? |
| 04:43.05 | MG_Tak | But the problem is social and economic, not religious or cultural. |
| 04:43.16 | RedHat | pardon me has a bomb been set off in a subway? |
| 04:43.26 | MG_Tak | RedHat: 95 |
| 04:43.31 | MG_Tak | not recently |
| 04:43.31 | RedHat | ok |
| 04:44.01 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: precisely, beacuse instead of giving them economic freedom like it happens in US ( where muslims are not segregated in any way) france is basically paying them off with a monthly payment |
| 04:44.09 | warmi_away | hoping that they will keep quiet |
| 04:44.29 | warmi_away | I haven't been to france in the last 10 years but I read quite a bit |
| 04:44.39 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: the segragation is a class issue more than anything |
| 04:44.42 | warmi_away | and , no, not Fox News stuff .. a lot of European commentary |
| 04:44.49 | warmi_away | because that's where I came from |
| 04:45.18 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: a lot of the population in the 'ghettos' isn't arab. |
| 04:45.20 | lfm | The problem is anthropological. War and hate is part of the human being. The same instinct that make us evolved is intimately related to xenophobia and hate against others.... is as sad as natural. |
| 04:45.48 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: no, they are North African Muslims |
| 04:46.03 | warmi_away | but , for the purpose of this debate, it doesn't matter |
| 04:46.53 | warmi_away | the bottom line MG_Talk is that French don't have a long tradition of intergrating foreign elemnts into their society the way US does .. |
| 04:46.59 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: the point is, most of them are French nationals, not immigrants, and a large part of them are white and of local French descent, not of immigrant descent |
| 04:47.00 | lfm | What happens in Spain and France is the same that in the south of the US.... poor people trying to get a better life. |
| 04:47.05 | warmi_away | same goes for Germans .. and they are now struggling |
| 04:47.37 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: that may be because, say, there's.. 2000+ years of culture in France whereas the US was lucky to be built pretty much from the ground up? |
| 04:47.55 | treke|laptop | is it also like in the US where they don't necesarrily want to be part of the French culture? |
| 04:47.58 | MG_Tak | The reason all of Europe is such a mess is because it didn't have the luxury to start anew. |
| 04:47.58 | treke|laptop | lfm: ^ |
| 04:48.12 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: it is to a certain extent |
| 04:48.12 | lfm | But depending on the moment, they change the rules to enforce the border patrols or give a working visa. |
| 04:48.23 | *** join/#zaurus roxirc (~chuckr@june.chuckr.org) |
| 04:48.33 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: yeah , perhaps .. but still they have a problem and they better solve it before Muslims become majority for if they don't - 50-100 years from now Sharia will be the law of the land in France |
| 04:48.53 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: never said it wasn't a problem |
| 04:49.23 | warmi_away | and this was one of the reasons France went against US .. to pacyfy their own muslim population .. |
| 04:49.46 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: what I disagree with most is that France is engaging in purely political campaigns, trying to make both sides happy with bogus laws. |
| 04:49.49 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: I made that point earlier. |
| 04:49.53 | warmi_away | which only reinforces my point that these days French are not what one would consider a friendly nation to US |
| 04:50.37 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: if you look at it that way, then the US is the enemy of almost all arab or muslim nations, considering the influence jews have in the US as opposed to the influence muslims have in the US |
| 04:50.56 | MG_Tak | no? |
| 04:51.06 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: yeah .. don't you watch TV ? |
| 04:51.18 | warmi_away | of course most Arab nations are not friendly .. |
| 04:51.27 | warmi_away | but hey .. that is a fucking honor the way I see it |
| 04:51.28 | warmi_away | :) |
| 04:51.29 | lfm | is amazing how important is the role of religion in all of this ..... my God !! :) |
| 04:51.45 | MG_Tak | being an atheist in the US sure as hell isn't fun. :P |
| 04:52.19 | warmi_away | majority of Arab nations are pathetic autocratic states run by some variation of power hungry madman .. the only unnifying thing among them being their unlimited hatred towards jews |
| 04:52.23 | W8TVI | what is stupid is that both groups fight in the name of thier god. the SAME god |
| 04:52.26 | MG_Tak | It completely goes against my understanding of separation of church and state |
| 04:52.47 | treke|laptop | Sounds like you have a flawed understanding to me. |
| 04:52.50 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: most people in the world tend to think the same about Bush.. |
| 04:52.50 | lfm | Religion is the people opium (Marx)... check the Spaniards.... the whole SOuth america was conquered in the name of God |
| 04:53.11 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: really? |
| 04:53.18 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: he can say about his beliefs ? do you understand that concept .. I am no religious person but I don't have a problem with Bush invoking god as long as he doesn't force me into his litle religious world |
| 04:53.30 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: the separation of church and state means that the Church can run the government. |
| 04:53.50 | lfm | Check the dollar bill... In God we trust.... |
| 04:54.00 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: when he starts talking about "good" vs "evil", that bothers me. |
| 04:54.25 | MG_Tak | when he says during the state of the union address that the US is a country of values taught by family, school and religious institutions, it REALLY bothers me. |
| 04:54.30 | lfm | Religion is everywhere "embedded" like linux on the Z :) |
| 04:54.31 | treke|laptop | The government cannot establish a state religion. It does not prohibit any particular member of believing in one and allowing it to shape their perspective. |
| 04:54.34 | W8TVI | it doesnt mean that you have to give up your faith to be in the government |
| 04:54.48 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: well, it is called "propaganda" - 50 years ago , everyone was talking about good vs evil too ... |
| 04:55.05 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: it probably would've bothered me 50 years ago too. |
| 04:55.38 | warmi_away | MG_talk: what is wrong with that ? you mean there is something wrong with familry or school or religious institutions ? I mean for God's sake - you are advocating complete ban on religion |
| 04:55.44 | W8TVI | this nation was built on religion! |
| 04:56.35 | warmi_away | he was simply acknowledging the reality .... Christianity plays a big role in US |
| 04:56.35 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: what if you're an atheist? |
| 04:56.35 | lfm | yours and mostly all. |
| 04:56.35 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: no religious institution in my life, that makes me less of a person because I don't have all 3 credentials, apparently. |
| 04:56.35 | treke|laptop | MG_Tak: Then you need to learn to live with many people believing differently |
| 04:56.38 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: I do |
| 04:56.46 | MG_Tak | but in my opinion, the government should be neutral |
| 04:56.49 | treke|laptop | Then that's the end of it. |
| 04:56.53 | MG_Tak | it should never mention god, or a lack thereof. |
| 04:57.01 | W8TVI | the men that started this country were (for the most part) christians and masons. |
| 04:57.04 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: what about that ? you are free to be atheist any way you want but what does that have to do with the fact that majority of Americans are not atheist ? do you mean that just because some people are atheists no one can even mention antyhing about god ? |
| 04:57.57 | warmi_away | hey .. I haven't been to church in 15 years and I don't give a damn about Bush talking about god .. |
| 04:58.07 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: if you dont like it, you are free to change the channel. |
| 04:58.17 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: you can bet that I did. :) |
| 04:58.18 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: if you dont like it, you are free to leave the country |
| 04:58.25 | warmi_away | if it makes him feel better . who gives a damn .. as long as I don't have to |
| 04:58.30 | lfm | Again... religion is the best tool invented. A society without "divine" rules loses grip with the government |
| 04:58.32 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: if you dont like it, you are free to vote for some one else |
| 04:58.38 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: no, that I am not |
| 04:58.43 | MG_Tak | You are, maybe, but not me. |
| 04:58.53 | MG_Tak | I am free, however, to campaign against him. |
| 04:59.01 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: how are you not free? |
| 04:59.07 | warmi_away | lfm: religion is no different than going to a shrink .. |
| 04:59.10 | MG_Tak | Because I'm neither a US citizen or a resident. |
| 04:59.17 | warmi_away | if it makes some people feel better , why not |
| 04:59.21 | MG_Tak | I am not even an immigrant. |
| 04:59.26 | MG_Tak | I'm a non-immigrant student. :) |
| 04:59.28 | lfm | warmi_away: agree |
| 04:59.37 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: you are still free to leave |
| 04:59.39 | MG_Tak | I am looking to become to an immigrant or resident, though. |
| 04:59.45 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I was refering to the vote. |
| 04:59.55 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: ah. |
| 04:59.56 | lfm | warmi_away: with the difference that it has the power of moving masses |
| 05:00.07 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: disagreeing with the government doesn't mean I want to leave |
| 05:00.15 | lfm | warmi_away: as Marx said... is the opium of the people. |
| 05:00.15 | warmi_away | lfm: well, everything can be misused |
| 05:00.17 | MG_Tak | and it doesn't mean I agree with any other government more thanI do with the US |
| 05:00.38 | W8TVI | if you dont like it here, you can go to canada |
| 05:00.55 | lfm | warmi_away: it has been proven throughout the history that religion is the most powerful weapon. |
| 05:01.10 | warmi_away | lfm: I don't have a problem with majority of Christians .. these days they are pretty much harmless and in fact, some of their instirutions are quite usefull to the society |
| 05:01.32 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: do I lose all license to complain/dislike some things about the US because I like it here? :) |
| 05:01.35 | warmi_away | but I do have a problem with Islam .. for these folks seems to be stuck in 7th century ... |
| 05:01.44 | lfm | Japan, Spain, etc.... they lived and die for their religion. |
| 05:01.57 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: yep :P |
| 05:02.10 | warmi_away | and they aren;'t even hiding their fact that their goal is to convert everyone to that cult .. pacefully or not |
| 05:02.21 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I was misled, then. :) |
| 05:02.59 | MG_Tak | though I have many muslim friends, and when I asked them what they thought of stoning, most of them reply: "Hey, you know the law, and you break it knowing the consequences." |
| 05:03.06 | lfm | death penalty is horrible, no matter how is done. |
| 05:03.14 | warmi_away | Mg_Talk: so what do you think ? will Bush get reelected ? |
| 05:03.40 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: I hope not, to be honest. Will he? I don't know. I've read polls that go either way. |
| 05:03.40 | warmi_away | lfm: well, yeah .. but sometimes , just like a war, death penalty is the thing to prevent further bloodshed |
| 05:04.08 | MG_Tak | I think he will mostly because he's got good staff. |
| 05:04.09 | W8TVI | I havent heard of any good dems that are running |
| 05:04.17 | W8TVI | none that have a chance |
| 05:04.37 | MG_Tak | Bush is like the Timberlake of presidents. |
| 05:04.43 | W8TVI | alot of people are fed up with the dems blaming everything on the republicans |
| 05:04.46 | MG_Tak | He's a tool, but the people he's got working for him are frickin' good. |
| 05:04.56 | warmi_away | I am still torn .. I wholly support his war on these towelheads motherfuckers with explosives ... |
| 05:05.01 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: weren't all the republicans blaming the dems for everything? |
| 05:05.06 | warmi_away | but I really despise his domestic policy |
| 05:05.10 | lfm | warmi_away: but is horrible.... very difficult topic.... |
| 05:05.28 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: yeah, but the dems really were the ones that did it. |
| 05:05.30 | W8TVI | :P |
| 05:05.40 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: yeah but it's still the name of the game |
| 05:05.51 | warmi_away | he is spending like a drunken sailor and even trying to buy some votes with his various "initiatives" .. |
| 05:05.53 | MG_Tak | and really, the dems and republicans will do the same thing, overall |
| 05:06.05 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: the republicans tend to own up to what they did, were the dems try to pass the buck |
| 05:06.17 | warmi_away | most likely I will hold my nose and vote for Bush beacuse Democrats are even worse in this regard |
| 05:06.20 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: I haven't been in the US long enough to know that. |
| 05:06.37 | MG_Tak | all I can think is "well at least he can't get elected 3 times" .. |
| 05:06.54 | treke|laptop | haha. For the most part republicans are just as bad as democrats |
| 05:07.02 | treke|laptop | politicians are losers in general. |
| 05:07.09 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: that they are |
| 05:07.23 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: the dems raise taxes and make the governmet bigger, and the republicans cut taxes and make it smaller |
| 05:07.28 | lfm | IMHO, Clinton was the best. Everybody loved Clinton in the foreign countries |
| 05:07.34 | treke|laptop | W8TVI: What world are you living in? |
| 05:07.36 | warmi_away | W8TVI it used to be the case .. but not anymore ... |
| 05:07.40 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: umm.. |
| 05:07.43 | MG_Tak | homeland security.. |
| 05:07.44 | MG_Tak | smaller? |
| 05:07.45 | W8TVI | Clinton was the worst |
| 05:07.57 | MG_Tak | damnit why did I look in this channel? |
| 05:08.03 | MG_Tak | I was going to bed 2 hours ago. :/ |
| 05:08.10 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: its like picking a scab |
| 05:08.17 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: it really is. |
| 05:08.26 | MG_Tak | 'cause I know every damn political discussion I have is always the same. |
| 05:08.32 | lfm | jajajaja. Never #zaurus had such activity !! |
| 05:08.40 | treke|laptop | W8TVI: The government's only interest is in enlarging itself. |
| 05:08.50 | MG_Tak | lfm: ar is argentina? |
| 05:08.53 | warmi_away | W8TVI : but hey ..I will vote republican if only because of their stance on guns |
| 05:08.55 | lfm | right |
| 05:09.02 | warmi_away | ;-) |
| 05:09.04 | MG_Tak | lfm: cool |
| 05:09.09 | treke|laptop | warmi_away: Great another hot topic :) |
| 05:09.24 | W8TVI | treke|laptop: the republcans want smaller government than the dems |
| 05:09.26 | warmi_away | treke: yeaaah ...... |
| 05:09.34 | MG_Tak | Whether people can own them or not really doesn't change much in the end. |
| 05:09.40 | treke|laptop | W8TVI: No. They say they want smaller government |
| 05:10.00 | treke|laptop | W8TVI: The reality is that they just want certain parts smaller |
| 05:10.10 | MG_Tak | the French situation's not much better, instead of getting shot, you get stabbed or bashed to death |
| 05:10.11 | W8TVI | the republicans try to run it more like a business |
| 05:10.31 | warmi_away | treke : some republicans are truly outraged with Bush spendings but hey .. you got to support your party |
| 05:10.34 | MG_Tak | though I've never heard of a guy walking into a place and stabbing 15 people |
| 05:10.35 | W8TVI | treke: they all want to line their pockets |
| 05:10.41 | MG_Tak | but that's beside the point |
| 05:10.55 | treke|laptop | warmi_away: Obviously there are some people with different beliefs |
| 05:11.13 | treke|laptop | I'm just speaking generally |
| 05:11.15 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: no, its becouse the guy with the gun shoots the guy with the knife and stops him |
| 05:11.26 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: lol |
| 05:11.27 | warmi_away | MG_Talk: yeah well, shit happens .. this is what is called freedom .. once in a while among 300 000 000 people there will be a nutcase who will find pleasure in killing 15 people |
| 05:11.48 | W8TVI | I like the republicans becouse of the prolife stance |
| 05:11.50 | warmi_away | but does it mean the other 80 000 000 gun owners have to suffer because of one nutcase ? |
| 05:11.51 | warmi_away | hehe |
| 05:11.59 | MG_Tak | shit happens, out of 6B people, some will try and kill 3000 |
| 05:12.06 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: is that a satisfying answer? |
| 05:12.20 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: like I said, I don't care so much about the gun laws |
| 05:12.26 | MG_Tak | I care that some people do it |
| 05:12.33 | warmi_away | MG_Tak : precisely ,, that's why you go after people who did it and not after everyone who has means to do it |
| 05:12.46 | treke|laptop | And when those people that kill 3000 or 15 goes off, someone pays. |
| 05:13.05 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: the guy who kills 15 usually goes down alone |
| 05:13.24 | MG_Tak | unless he's a minor, then you have people asking how they got the guns |
| 05:13.29 | W8TVI | an armed society is a polite society |
| 05:13.30 | treke|laptop | Usually, because there are fewer people involved. |
| 05:13.32 | warmi_away | W8TVI: I am pro-life but not because of religious reasons .. I just think abortion is just nother step into society that doesn't value human life |
| 05:13.48 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: something like that. |
| 05:13.55 | W8TVI | vermont has the lowest crime rate |
| 05:14.15 | MG_Tak | Canada supposedly has a lot of gun owners and a fraction of the crime. |
| 05:14.28 | warmi_away | W8TVI: and Chicago where handguns have been banned for 20 years is the crime capital of US |
| 05:14.33 | lfm | ok guys... time to go to sleep... try to read "The Lucifer Principle" from Howard Bloom....excellent book .... |
| 05:14.43 | warmi_away | exactly: armed civilized society is a polite society |
| 05:14.46 | W8TVI | you can carry consealed there with out needing to get a permit to do it |
| 05:15.29 | warmi_away | MG_Tak : nothing wrong with fox .. in fact they are simply present another point of view ... cnn has its own, so has BBC ... |
| 05:15.46 | W8TVI | and in austraila where they baned guns, the crime has risen |
| 05:15.54 | W8TVI | home invasion it way up |
| 05:15.56 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: Fox is a little too .. opinionated for my taste. |
| 05:16.19 | lfm | guns suck !!! |
| 05:16.19 | W8TVI | s/it/is |
| 05:16.25 | warmi_away | Mg_talk so is BBC or CNN .. the difference is that you like their bias so you are most likely not even noticing it |
| 05:16.27 | MG_Tak | Newscasters shouldn't have opinions. |
| 05:16.32 | W8TVI | lfm: no, guns blow |
| 05:16.50 | lfm | they should be banned .... check out Spain. |
| 05:17.06 | MG_Tak | Spain has a bunch of gypsies cutting people's throats.. |
| 05:17.10 | warmi_away | Mg_talk: well, you can't have that .. even the mere selection of what gets to be news and what doesn't exhibits certain bias .. |
| 05:17.20 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: agreed |
| 05:17.25 | W8TVI | lfm: you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers |
| 05:17.38 | W8TVI | and you have to get close enough first to do that |
| 05:17.50 | MG_Tak | warmi_away: I don't need some shmuck making some snide comment about the news though, I just expect him to read his cue cards and then shut up. |
| 05:17.50 | warmi_away | W8TVI : whad do you got ? I wanna know what I am going to kill you for ? I want your guns :-) |
| 05:17.56 | MG_Tak | no matter who he agrees with |
| 05:18.10 | W8TVI | warmi_away: how about a 12g to the face? |
| 05:18.19 | warmi_away | W8TVI : heeh .. that will do it |
| 05:18.21 | lfm | MG_Tak: give me a break.... It was repulsive watching small kids learning how to shoot in some American State. |
| 05:18.27 | warmi_away | but seriously what kind of guns you got ? |
| 05:18.38 | treke|laptop | lfm: How is that repulsive? |
| 05:18.43 | treke|laptop | Shooting is quite fun. |
| 05:18.44 | W8TVI | a 12g shotgun and 2 .22 rifles |
| 05:18.44 | MG_Tak | lfm: there are kids in France stabbing other kids. |
| 05:18.50 | MG_Tak | the weapon isn't the problem. |
| 05:18.51 | warmi_away | I am just starting ... I got Glock 17 and Taurus Raging Bull 44 Magnum |
| 05:18.58 | treke|laptop | lfm: As long as they arent shooting at people. |
| 05:19.08 | warmi_away | I am planning to get Beretta CX 4 Storm .. very cool "star wars" sort of looking small carabine |
| 05:19.10 | W8TVI | I want to get a winchester model 94 .45 |
| 05:19.17 | lfm | treke : that can be the next step |
| 05:19.22 | warmi_away | W8TVI : ah that's you .. I remmeber you now :-) |
| 05:19.25 | warmi_away | we have talked about that |
| 05:19.29 | warmi_away | I just forgot your nick |
| 05:19.30 | W8TVI | heh |
| 05:19.30 | warmi_away | hehe |
| 05:19.34 | lfm | sadly... check out the high school shootings .... |
| 05:19.44 | treke|laptop | lfm: What about them? |
| 05:19.45 | MG_Tak | lfm: that has nothing to do with weapons. |
| 05:19.54 | MG_Tak | if they wanted, those kids could've found some illegaly. |
| 05:20.05 | W8TVI | lfm: if you teach a kid how to properly handle a wepon, they will treat them with respect |
| 05:20.09 | MG_Tak | lfm: the problem is in the head of the people who kill, not in what they use. |
| 05:20.20 | lfm | really ? I believe that if kids couldn't reach guns that wouldn't happen |
| 05:20.25 | treke|laptop | They also could have shot people without learning how to shoot. The gun isnt a particularly difficult tool to operate. |
| 05:20.27 | warmi_away | lfm: nothing wrong with kids learning how to shoot .. they will be less likely to behave stupid when faced with unsuppervised weapon |
| 05:20.30 | W8TVI | lfm: if they couldnt get guns, they would be using knives |
| 05:20.35 | MG_Tak | lfm: they'll find a way if they're really screwed up in the head |
| 05:20.42 | lfm | The States, since the far west has that mentality |
| 05:20.44 | W8TVI | like in france |
| 05:20.52 | treke|laptop | lfm: In general kids can't buy weapons. |
| 05:21.00 | warmi_away | treke : hehe .. ;-) |
| 05:21.04 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: they get less people at a time but really, in the end, it makes no difference. :) |
| 05:21.10 | treke|laptop | lfm: In most of the cases I've seen the school shootings occured with illegally obtained ones. |
| 05:21.13 | MG_Tak | whether it's 1 person or 15, to me, it's just as f'ed up |
| 05:21.24 | W8TVI | my uncle owns a glock |
| 05:21.35 | warmi_away | lfm: guns are tools ... and like other tools (say cars) kids are not allowed to own them until they reach certain age .. |
| 05:21.45 | warmi_away | quite civilized approach if you were to ask me |
| 05:21.48 | treke|laptop | Kids also arent allowed to drink |
| 05:21.49 | MG_Tak | what exactly do you use your gun for..? |
| 05:21.49 | treke|laptop | or vote |
| 05:21.51 | lfm | I lived in LA for 6 years.... going to SMC and other colleges and passing through metal detectors .... that's so sad |
| 05:22.07 | treke|laptop | lfm: Once again, this is a people problem, not a gun problem. |
| 05:22.08 | warmi_away | lfm: that's problem with certain segments of society .. not guns |
| 05:22.23 | treke|laptop | MG_Tak: They are rather useful for hunting |
| 05:22.30 | treke|laptop | MG_Tak: And when necessary killing people. |
| 05:22.38 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: that's a toy, not a tool |
| 05:22.38 | warmi_away | Nevada and other southern states have wery well armed population and yet these are quite safe places to be |
| 05:23.05 | MG_Tak | treke|laptop: I've yet to get into the latter situation, I hope to avoid it all my life. |
| 05:23.09 | treke|laptop | There are times when a tool for killing people well comes in handy |
| 05:23.17 | treke|laptop | MG_Tak: I'd like to avoid it also myself |
| 05:23.22 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: I have no need to hunt at the moment, but if I ever need to hunt to eat, I'm going to be sure that I kill what I'm shooting at |
| 05:23.26 | lfm | again .... if you don't have guns, there will be gang fights, but not drive-by shootings and the death toll would decrease |
| 05:23.29 | warmi_away | lfm: but hey .. if you prefer to live in society that deems its citizen too dangerous to be trusted with weapons ... your choice |
| 05:24.05 | treke|laptop | maybe manditory gun training is what we need |
| 05:24.18 | W8TVI | I might go deer hunting some time... |
| 05:24.19 | treke|laptop | then when gangs try killing each other they will hit their targets |
| 05:24.30 | lfm | I just don't like guns. They're innecesary in a modern society. IMHO. |
| 05:24.37 | warmi_away | treke: you already have that .. if you want to carry a gun you have to pass a proficiency test |
| 05:24.56 | treke|laptop | warmi_away: Manditory for everyone. Not just people who want to carry a gun |
| 05:25.04 | W8TVI | lfm: yes, we all need personal nukes |
| 05:25.31 | treke|laptop | warmi_away: Follow Finland ( I think) :) |
| 05:25.35 | W8TVI | treke|laptop: yeah, you dont have to carry it loaded, but you must carry it |
| 05:25.35 | MG_Tak | y'all sound like a buncha rednecks. :) |
| 05:25.54 | warmi_away | treke : well, that's too much .. if someone wants to kill himself inside his house while playing with a weapon he has no clue about so be it ... it is just with cars, you only have to have a license if you are no public roads |
| 05:26.25 | MG_Tak | alright, I'm done having different opinions |
| 05:26.27 | MG_Tak | night folks |
| 05:26.34 | warmi_away | night |
| 05:26.35 | treke|laptop | oh so you are going to join our opinion |
| 05:26.36 | W8TVI | MG_Tak: if you were a criminal and wanted to rob some one, but knew that everyone was armed, woudlnt you be scared of being shot by your victim? |
| 05:26.37 | treke|laptop | good |
| 05:27.10 | warmi_away | but you know what .. I don't give a damn .. I woudn't mind mandatory class about guns for people who own them |
| 05:27.15 | warmi_away | it wouldn't hurt |
| 05:27.16 | MG_Tak | W8TVI: in my mind, the reasoning is more along the lines of "I shouldn't want to be a criminal" |
| 05:27.18 | treke|laptop | W8TVI: You sound like a walking NRA commercial |
| 05:27.29 | MG_Tak | but that's too utopic |
| 05:27.29 | W8TVI | treke|laptop: heh. |
| 05:27.32 | MG_Tak | anyway, really |
| 05:27.33 | MG_Tak | good night |
| 05:27.44 | lfm | W8 : the criminal would get an AK47 instead of his victim revolver... that's the reality |
| 05:28.08 | warmi_away | W8TVI : believe or not I am a NRA member .. it comes actually quite handy when one is shooting a lot .. you get various discounts at gun ranges etc .. |
| 05:28.16 | treke|wherever | a revolver is easier to hide |
| 05:28.18 | W8TVI | warmi_away: cool |
| 05:28.34 | treke|wherever | people tend to notice you walking around with an ak47 |
| 05:28.41 | warmi_away | treke : hehehehe |
| 05:28.47 | W8TVI | If I was to get a hand gun, I would want a M1911-A1 |
| 05:29.04 | lfm | Yeah... specially when eating in a Mac Donalds .... |
| 05:29.11 | warmi_away | W8TVI : ah .. that's American spirit .. good old goverment 1911 :-) |
| 05:29.11 | treke|wherever | "No, this isn't an Ak47. I'm just very well endowed" |
| 05:29.34 | warmi_away | hehe |
| 05:29.43 | W8TVI | warmi_away: I just like the 1911, a well made gun |
| 05:29.50 | W8TVI | a "safe" gun |
| 05:29.53 | lfm | like if they care whether you see them .... |
| 05:30.05 | warmi_away | yeah, I need to get myself a Springfield 1911 |
| 05:30.05 | warmi_away | they are reasonably priced |
| 05:30.05 | treke|wherever | lfm: Yes they do |
| 05:30.08 | warmi_away | around $600 |
| 05:30.17 | treke|wherever | lfm: Not being noticed has this habit of helping you succeed |
| 05:30.21 | W8TVI | "Safe" as in the way the safetys are on it |
| 05:30.32 | treke|wherever | And when a crime witha gun is concerned, walking away alive. |
| 05:30.38 | warmi_away | well, glock is as safe as your finger is :-) |
| 05:30.39 | W8TVI | you have to be sure you want to fire it, it order to fire the thing |
| 05:30.56 | W8TVI | seems to me that a 1911 would be harder for a kid to fire |
| 05:31.05 | warmi_away | there is absolutely no safety of any kind on Glocks ... if you don't want to shoot , don't pull the damn trigger :-) |
| 05:31.37 | W8TVI | I think thats just stupid |
| 05:31.39 | warmi_away | W8TVI : yeah well , but if kid has his hands on a weapon it is already too late :-) |
| 05:31.41 | treke|wherever | gun control means a good pair of grips. :) |
| 05:31.53 | warmi_away | W8TVI : Glock was designed as a military pistol .. |
| 05:31.54 | W8TVI | gun control means using both hands |
| 05:32.08 | lfm | gun control should mean no guns at all. |
| 05:32.10 | W8TVI | so was the 1911. |
| 05:32.10 | warmi_away | they simply figured trained people don't need safety devices ... |
| 05:32.27 | W8TVI | and the 1911 is still the better hand gun |
| 05:32.46 | warmi_away | lfm: for people who obey law that is .. and of course, since criminals tend to disreagard law, in reality it would be "no guns for law abiding citizens" |
| 05:33.03 | warmi_away | W8TVI : I am still torn about it ... I am not sure which one is better |
| 05:33.05 | treke|wherever | yup. |
| 05:33.31 | W8TVI | warmi_away: from what I have read, alot of people that have tryed both, like the 1911 better |
| 05:33.37 | lfm | but a lot of the guns owned by criminals are the ones stolen from regular citizens |
| 05:33.40 | W8TVI | warmi_away: just read some of the pages on then et |
| 05:33.45 | W8TVI | net |
| 05:33.55 | lfm | so if you ban them, you cut the circuit |
| 05:33.56 | warmi_away | W8TVI : could be .. on the other hand .. just about all police departments in US use glocks ... go figure |
| 05:34.12 | lfm | and sooner than later guns will disappear. |
| 05:34.27 | W8TVI | warmi_away: most of the guys on the beat dont have a choice |
| 05:34.31 | lfm | again... is all economics... and the gun industry is huge in the US. |
| 05:34.41 | warmi_away | lfm: yeah, why don't you ban cars as well .. I mean there are criminals who use them to drive away with loot ... we can cut the cirtut and they won't get far with all these bags of money will they ? |
| 05:34.47 | W8TVI | warmi_away: heres your side arm |
| 05:35.12 | W8TVI | lfm: most of the criminals buy thier guns on the black market |
| 05:35.27 | warmi_away | W8TVI : the basic problem is that majority of cops can barely handle 40 SW let alone 45 ACP |
| 05:35.52 | W8TVI | give me dirty harrys gun |
| 05:35.54 | W8TVI | :) |
| 05:36.00 | warmi_away | your average cop shoots 4 times a year - 800 bullets per year at most ... |
| 05:36.01 | W8TVI | .357 Magnum |
| 05:36.12 | warmi_away | most gun owners I now shoot around 800-1000 rounds a month |
| 05:36.17 | W8TVI | that one fscking big gun |
| 05:36.29 | warmi_away | cops are really poor shooters :-) or so they gun range operators tell :-) |
| 05:36.36 | W8TVI | heh |
| 05:36.43 | treke|wherever | they just shoot well enough to qualify |
| 05:36.48 | treke|wherever | for the most part |
| 05:36.59 | warmi_away | treke : precisely |
| 05:37.04 | warmi_away | which is really not much |
| 05:37.21 | treke|wherever | for the most part it's good enough. |
| 05:37.26 | warmi_away | not really .. |
| 05:37.29 | treke|wherever | most of them will never have to fire |
| 05:37.30 | lfm | ok guys ! Enough for today ... damn... and I got here to talk about the Z ! Take care. |
| 05:37.37 | W8TVI | I dont shoot that much, but I can still shoot within an inch of the center of the target |
| 05:37.38 | warmi_away | you know what is average hit rate for policeman .. |
| 05:37.43 | warmi_away | something like 17-20% |
| 05:37.45 | treke|wherever | Probably low |
| 05:38.01 | treke|wherever | I'd believe it |
| 05:38.08 | warmi_away | swat guns get something around 90% |
| 05:38.18 | warmi_away | that's the diference training mades |
| 05:38.22 | treke|wherever | yup. |
| 05:38.34 | warmi_away | but of course, on the other hand, we are not trying our cops to be damn walking killers |
| 05:38.41 | warmi_away | that's what SWAT dudes are for |
| 05:38.49 | warmi_away | trying= training |
| 05:39.11 | W8TVI | The modern American who buys a firearm for self-protection is saying, "I recognize that life involves danger, and by owning a weapon I accept my responsibility to protect myself and those who are entitled to my protection-- my wife/husband, children, parents, and perhaps friends and neighbors." An American who shoots at targets for recreation is practicing a form of self-discipline similar to kyudo (Japanese archery). |
| 05:39.19 | warmi_away | W8TVI : my best is 4 inches groups at 25 yards ... that's with handgun ... sort of middle of the road |
| 05:39.52 | warmi_away | well, maybe .. for me it is just fun :-) |
| 05:40.10 | W8TVI | I was shooting a .22 rifle with .22 longrifles in it at about 40 feet |
| 05:40.18 | warmi_away | treke : I understand you don't shoot |
| 05:40.33 | treke|wherever | Nope |
| 05:40.56 | W8TVI | warmi_away: and I was doing this just standing infront of the target, nothing to rest on |
| 05:41.00 | treke|wherever | I do on occaision, but very very rarely |
| 05:41.06 | warmi_away | as I told kergoth .. after a day full of coding nothing will get you more relaxed than blowing up some stuff at the gun range |
| 05:41.07 | warmi_away | heh |
| 05:41.40 | treke|wherever | I'd believe it. I'd like to get a gun and find a range locally. |
| 05:41.41 | warmi_away | W8TVI : yeah .. me to ... I need to buy myself a small patch of land so I can plink without any interference ... |
| 05:41.50 | W8TVI | heh |
| 05:41.55 | warmi_away | some backward piece of property far away from civilization |
| 05:42.07 | W8TVI | I got a few miles of forest to to shoot into |
| 05:42.19 | warmi_away | W8TVI : well, yeah - you are lucky dude |
| 05:43.01 | warmi_away | I have to pay $10 for each visit to a gun range and I am limited in may ways .. no rapid fire, not even double taps .. nothing bigger than 44 magnum and no plinking of any kind |
| 05:43.18 | W8TVI | "plinking"? |
| 05:43.41 | warmi_away | well, you know ... shoting stationary objects like cans etc ... |
| 05:43.46 | W8TVI | ah |
| 05:43.46 | warmi_away | only paper targets are allowed |
| 05:44.05 | W8TVI | I staple a paper target to a tree |
| 05:44.28 | warmi_away | I like shooting but I am not sure I would enjoy hunting .. |
| 05:44.44 | warmi_away | I mean , running around woods for hours just to nail some stupid deer :-) |
| 05:45.10 | W8TVI | I have a game trail about 300' into the woods from me |
| 05:45.34 | warmi_away | yeah, frankly, I would enjoy some deer meat .. I like this stuff .. but I am too lazy to do it myself :-) |
| 05:45.41 | warmi_away | W8TVI : do you hunt ? |
| 05:45.47 | W8TVI | bear, deer, and other things cross the road trail from me. |
| 05:45.50 | W8TVI | warmi_away: no. |
| 05:46.02 | W8TVI | warmi_away: I dont have the rifle for it anyway |
| 05:46.18 | warmi_away | well, your rifle is good for some critters :-) |
| 05:46.26 | warmi_away | pest control on your land :-) |
| 05:46.35 | W8TVI | and I'm not sure that I can use the rifle I want to get is ok to use on dear |
| 05:46.36 | W8TVI | deer |
| 05:46.47 | W8TVI | warmi_away: it does get used for that |
| 05:46.47 | treke|wherever | do jehovas witnesses count as pests? |
| 05:46.48 | warmi_away | what caliber was that ? |
| 05:46.57 | W8TVI | colt .45 |
| 05:47.06 | warmi_away | treke : uh .. not legally :-) |
| 05:47.18 | warmi_away | W8TVI : I think it would be a bit too small |
| 05:47.25 | warmi_away | but I am no hunter so I don't really know |
| 05:47.56 | W8TVI | what about the .357 magnum? |
| 05:47.58 | warmi_away | treke : you guys have problems with them in your neck of the woods ? |
| 05:48.13 | warmi_away | W8TVI : I don't know :-) |
| 05:48.20 | treke|wherever | warmi_away: not lately |
| 05:48.27 | warmi_away | I thought most people used Winchester 308 or something like that |
| 05:48.44 | treke|wherever | They used to be more active than they are now |
| 05:48.46 | W8TVI | they use 30-30s around here alot I think |
| 05:49.05 | warmi_away | treke : these people are all over the world .. I rememmber people complaining about them knocking on the doors in Poland, Germany etc .. |
| 05:49.06 | warmi_away | heh |
| 05:49.40 | W8TVI | warmi_away: http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=086&cat=003C |
| 05:50.07 | warmi_away | yeah, it does look cool .. you still salivating over it ? :-) |
| 05:50.11 | W8TVI | yeah |
| 05:50.12 | warmi_away | when do you plan to get it ? |
| 05:50.16 | W8TVI | not sure... |
| 05:50.35 | W8TVI | I want to get a sony nx80 |
| 05:50.48 | warmi_away | ah .. decisions , decisions |
| 05:50.49 | warmi_away | heh |
| 05:50.52 | W8TVI | yeah |
| 05:51.11 | W8TVI | I can use the nx80 more than I could the rifle |
| 05:51.33 | warmi_away | yeah, hopefully :-) |
| 05:51.34 | warmi_away | hehe |
| 05:51.43 | warmi_away | how much is nx80 ? |
| 05:51.59 | W8TVI | $399 at curcuit city |
| 05:52.14 | warmi_away | and what do you get for it ? |
| 05:52.19 | warmi_away | 420x240 resolution ? |
| 05:52.20 | W8TVI | huh? |
| 05:52.47 | W8TVI | the color screen, the digital camera |
| 05:52.56 | warmi_away | and 320 x 480 |
| 05:53.02 | W8TVI | to replace my grayscale pda |
| 05:53.02 | warmi_away | yeah, pretty good deal |
| 05:53.16 | warmi_away | I am looking right now at a web page |
| 05:53.19 | W8TVI | and so I can take my digial camera with me everywhere |
| 05:53.30 | warmi_away | do you know what kind of CPU does it have ? |
| 05:53.48 | W8TVI | pxa255 |
| 05:53.56 | warmi_away | great ... |
| 05:53.56 | W8TVI | I think |
| 05:54.20 | warmi_away | so these days higher end Palm devices are just as powerfull as PocketPC or Zaurus for that matter |
| 05:54.44 | W8TVI | and the nx80 has a cf slot |
| 05:54.55 | warmi_away | whoa .. that thing has a built in keyboard |
| 05:54.59 | W8TVI | yep |
| 05:55.11 | warmi_away | not bad for a $400 device |
| 05:55.29 | W8TVI | you can get it for less than that on ebay |
| 05:55.30 | warmi_away | frankly, definately better deal than say Zaurus 5600 |
| 05:55.42 | W8TVI | but I'd rather get it local |
| 05:55.54 | warmi_away | well, yeah, but there are certain risks associated with ebay |
| 05:56.13 | warmi_away | do you have a Zaurus device ? |
| 05:56.17 | W8TVI | yep |
| 05:56.18 | W8TVI | two |
| 05:56.24 | W8TVI | 5500 and 5000d |
| 05:56.34 | warmi_away | ah , just asked cause you said you were going to replace black-white Palm |
| 05:56.45 | W8TVI | yeah |
| 05:57.01 | W8TVI | I changed from a sony sj-20 to a Palm Vx |
| 05:57.30 | warmi_away | sounds like a good plan .. get a PDA and then , over time save some cash for your gun |
| 05:57.51 | W8TVI | the sj-20 has a 33mhz cpu but the Vx seems to be just as fast |
| 05:58.35 | warmi_away | I know sony runs Palm OS but are they 100% compatible with every 3rd party software available for palms ? |
| 05:58.52 | W8TVI | warmi_away: as far as I know |
| 05:59.36 | warmi_away | yeah, well with nx80 you would be able to run just about every piece of software available for Palm, color/grayscale whatever ... |
| 05:59.58 | W8TVI | lowres, hires, hires+ |
| 06:00.09 | W8TVI | and hires+ sony |
| 06:00.20 | W8TVI | sony came out with the hires+ first |
| 06:00.39 | warmi_away | anyway, time for me .. it is midnight and tommorow I have to go to work to make money for my toys (guns, pdas etc) ... and to keep my family fed .. |
| 06:00.41 | warmi_away | night |
| 06:00.54 | W8TVI | night |
| 06:04.10 | treke|wherever | new rubbers for your jimmy? |
| 06:04.22 | W8TVI | it has on it 235/75R-15's but I think it had 205/75R-15 from the factory |
| 06:05.17 | W8TVI | from what I have been able to figure out, the the spedo shows its going faster than it really is, and the 205s would make it read right |
| 06:07.22 | W8TVI | but I'm not sure if I should get the 205s or the 235s |
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| 06:37.02 | | rev <~Malkin@24-197-179-70.dul.mn.charter.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #zaurus, 1d 7h 53m ago, saying: 'boring'. |
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| 10:03.30 | Zxcvb | has anyone tried booting win98 on the zaurus through qemu? |
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| 10:38.11 | mark-use | hi all |
| 10:38.43 | mark-use | does any1 can tell me if it is possible to run mozilla on the Z5500? what os do I need? |
| 10:43.17 | mickeyl | you'd need a ROM with X11. no idea where to get one... actually no idea if there even is one |
| 11:17.50 | mark-use | hehe, I found a project called minimoz |
| 11:18.47 | mark-use | what kernel would you choose? the openzaurus or the orginal sharp one? |
| 11:19.14 | mark-use | which performance is better? |
| 11:20.25 | mark-use | and which is the more safe solution? I need my Z for work, so I can't risk loosing data |
| 11:20.33 | mickeyl | then stick with the sharp rom |
| 11:20.47 | jaku | yap.. |
| 11:20.49 | mickeyl | oz 3.3.6 is much faster though |
| 11:20.53 | mickeyl | but unstable |
| 11:21.31 | mark-use | what about the oz 3.2? |
| 11:22.03 | mark-use | or, I think that is the best question: what developer-team is faster? :-) |
| 11:22.50 | jaku | if you need someting stable the sharp one is the best.. |
| 11:22.52 | mickeyl | hah good question |
| 11:23.08 | mickeyl | sharp has 0 persons working for 5500 |
| 11:23.16 | mickeyl | oz has 2 persons working for 5500 |
| 11:23.19 | mickeyl | so... 2 is better than 0 |
| 11:23.20 | mickeyl | :D |
| 11:23.26 | jaku | :D |
| 11:24.16 | mark-use | hrhr |
| 11:24.32 | mark-use | k, I'll try the oz I think |
| 11:24.36 | jaku | oz has 2 persons and a lot of fan |
| 11:25.02 | mark-use | I had installed it once, but I got problems installing the software on the right place :-) |
| 11:25.50 | mark-use | I have an 128MB SD-Card, so what image should I use? the 48-16, 32-32,...? |
| 11:25.58 | mickeyl | 64-0 |
| 11:26.03 | mickeyl | gives you most ram |
| 11:26.17 | mark-use | but issnt SD-Card very slow? |
| 11:26.49 | mickeyl | yes... but you'll get used to waiting |
| 11:27.21 | mark-use | sry, I didn't get this(I'm not english) |
| 11:28.11 | mickeyl | it's slow, but not unsuably slow# |
| 11:29.31 | mark-use | hmmm, I'll try that, so the chance to install software on the wrong place will be less then using rom also as storage |
| 11:31.01 | mickeyl | yeah |
| 11:31.07 | mark-use | :-) |
| 11:31.10 | mickeyl | you better format the SD with ext2fs though |
| 11:31.25 | mark-use | how do i do this? |
| 11:32.23 | mark-use | if there a solution while installing? |
| 11:32.37 | mark-use | I only have an HDD-CF card adapther :-) |
| 11:32.48 | mark-use | is the only way at the mom |
| 11:33.57 | mark-use | damn 450Mhz Laptop with 32mb ram is compiling qt since 5h :-( |
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| 12:07.39 | enginuitor | Hey, anybody wanna buy a 5500? |
| 12:07.45 | enginuitor | I need money... :) |
| 12:08.48 | enginuitor | It's got a Boxwave ClearVue screen protector on it, has an extra battery pack... |
| 12:10.54 | enginuitor | well, anybody interested should email me at zo@gee-enginuity.com |
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| 12:56.41 | mark-use | hmm, what's about this cacko-rom? I downloaded OZ and now while booting it shows cacko. is that right? |
| 12:57.03 | jaku | ? |
| 12:57.50 | mickeyl | no, that's not right |
| 12:58.05 | mickeyl | renamed files? |
| 12:58.08 | mickeyl | zImage |
| 12:58.12 | mickeyl | initrd.bin |
| 12:58.56 | jaku | did you gat the gentoo for zaurus? :) |
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