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| 00:07.21 | *** join/#zaurus angry (~angry@ool-4356628d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 00:11.27 | *** join/#zaurus krezel (~mememe@132.198.226.45) |
| 00:16.48 | krezel | Quiet in here eh? |
| 00:17.06 | chairman | yes |
| 00:17.12 | chairman | very quiet |
| 00:20.28 | *** join/#zaurus CodeYoddler (~CodeYoddl@12.242.131.241) |
| 00:20.35 | CodeYoddler | Is there a SDL for Zaurus? |
| 00:20.44 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: supposedly... |
| 00:20.48 | _Psycho | yes think so |
| 00:20.53 | chairman | hmm |
| 00:20.55 | _Psycho | i saw some gameboy emu and stuff run on that |
| 00:21.02 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: I asked that like a week ago and apparently there is... |
| 00:21.04 | chairman | I think libsdl or something is on the list |
| 00:21.05 | chairman | hmm |
| 00:21.29 | Nite_Hawk | I'm actually going through some of the sdl tutorials right now infact... |
| 00:22.11 | treke|home | chairman: yes |
| 00:22.23 | treke|home | CodeYoddler: yes there is one |
| 00:22.27 | CodeYoddler | ok |
| 00:22.48 | CodeYoddler | i am learning sdl right nwo and i am thinking about getting a new pda and was thinking about the zaurus |
| 00:23.06 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: your basically in the same position I'm in. |
| 00:23.19 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: learning sdl, and thinking about getting a zaurus. :) |
| 00:23.23 | CodeYoddler | hehe |
| 00:23.51 | CodeYoddler | I got Focus on SDL it is allright, but this other book taht I got, Programming Linux Games explains SDL much better |
| 00:24.50 | CodeYoddler | You can legally download Programming Linux Games for free |
| 00:25.00 | CodeYoddler | The author hangs around in #sdl |
| 00:25.16 | CodeYoddler | He used to work at Loki using it |
| 00:26.15 | chairman | hmm |
| 00:26.22 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: yeah, focus on sdl was rather crappy from what I remember of reading it in the bookstore. Programming linux games is much better. A bit on the old side it seems, but really good. |
| 00:26.45 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: what's his nick? I was in #sdl the other day, but it seemed rather pointless... |
| 00:26.51 | CodeYoddler | overcode |
| 00:27.09 | CodeYoddler | one guy in that channel is currently writing a book on SDL |
| 00:27.29 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: cool. Maybe I'll try it out again. Last time I was in there I just got harrassed over my nick. :/ |
| 00:27.45 | CodeYoddler | hehe |
| 00:27.55 | CodeYoddler | when were you in there? |
| 00:28.00 | chairman | I think this game use SDL: http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/showdetail.php?app=780 |
| 00:28.16 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: A couple of days ago |
| 00:28.26 | chairman | I tried the demo |
| 00:28.43 | treke|home | chairman: it uses sdl mixer I think, that's about it |
| 00:29.00 | chairman | but it would have been better if it was GPL |
| 00:29.18 | chairman | and not $19.99 |
| 00:29.50 | treke|home | chairman: It was a port. the author couldnt have gpled it if he wanted to |
| 00:30.42 | chairman | the big screenshot reminded me of the old game IRONMAN |
| 00:33.25 | CodeYoddler | Nite_Hawk, yeah I remember you from #sdl a few days ago, hehe, wasn't parasite- talking about how nite is spelled night? |
| 00:34.16 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: yep. |
| 00:34.32 | CodeYoddler | and how Nite_Hawk was stolen on EFNet |
| 00:34.58 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: yeah, though it was night_hawk that was stolen on efnet, which is how I ended up with Nite_Hawk. It ended up just sticking. |
| 00:35.09 | CodeYoddler | http://vengeance.et.tudelft.nl/~smoke/logs/sdl/sdl.22Feb03 |
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| 00:36.07 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: Don't know why he had to make a big deal about it. Ah well. I see the topic no long says "welcome to #wanker" :) |
| 00:36.34 | CodeYoddler | hehe |
| 00:36.57 | CodeYoddler | I am temp banned from #sdl for privmessaging parasite- |
| 00:37.26 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: sheesh |
| 00:37.51 | Nite_Hawk | that's really draconian. |
| 00:38.24 | CodeYoddler | yeah |
| 00:40.30 | Nite_Hawk | is overccode like that too, or just parasite? |
| 00:40.53 | CodeYoddler | just parasite- |
| 00:40.58 | CodeYoddler | overcode is nice |
| 00:41.33 | CodeYoddler | #sdl has a few former loki people |
| 00:43.25 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: that's good. He seemed really nice from the tone of his book. |
| 00:44.02 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: I'm thinking of trying to make a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy program for the zaurus.. |
| 00:44.26 | CodeYoddler | hehe |
| 00:44.28 | Nite_Hawk | CodeYoddler: I'm thinking of using sdl to make a glob of the earth and let you zero in on cities to get information about them... |
| 00:44.41 | CodeYoddler | cool |
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| 01:11.47 | JasonNJ | sup. |
| 01:17.08 | ccamp | yo yo |
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| 01:25.21 | oGMo | Nite_Hawk: call it the "Mostly Harmless Guide" ;) |
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| 01:33.19 | _Psycho_ | linksys CF card + linsys USB wifi, a good deal for wireless at home with my c700 ? |
| 01:34.25 | JasonNJ | the linksys has horrendous power consumption |
| 01:36.05 | _Psycho_ | really ? i heard it was the second best next to socketcom |
| 01:36.07 | ryan_ | compared to what i think all the cf wireless use a lot of juice |
| 01:36.56 | ryan_ | not that i have tried a whole lot anyone have a real low power cf card? |
| 01:37.26 | _Psycho_ | someone posted that the socketcom low power is the best, but like twice the price |
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| 01:37.35 | _Psycho_ | like 80Mah or whatever it was |
| 01:38.39 | ryan_ | hrmmm it might be money well spent or buy the linksys and get another battery with the savings :) |
| 01:39.07 | _Psycho_ | there is also 2 kind of linsys CF card the version 11 and the version 12 |
| 01:39.15 | _Psycho_ | i think the new one is better for power |
| 01:39.17 | _Psycho_ | not sure |
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| 01:43.17 | _Psycho_ | nm that it was dlink ;) |
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| 01:52.05 | chouimat|bored | hi prpplague |
| 01:52.16 | chairman | I have a socket wifi card |
| 01:52.29 | prpplague | chouimat|bored: lo |
| 01:52.30 | chairman | Not sure how much power it takes |
| 01:53.10 | chouimat|bored | hmmmm that snowstorm seems to be over |
| 01:53.46 | chairman | it's time to find the bed |
| 01:53.47 | chairman | bye |
| 01:54.16 | chouimat|bored | chairman: look in your room, i'm sure you will find it there :) |
| 01:54.38 | chairman | chouimat|bored: I hope so |
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| 02:30.11 | Shdwdrgn | software question... I was thinking of an app today that could be used for lists... basic headings for a general grocery list, or the ability to sub-divide an item so you could list names and potential gift ideas... seems like it could be used for more things as well. |
| 02:30.26 | Shdwdrgn | question is... has anyone written something similar to that? |
| 02:30.34 | _Psycho_ | i saw something called shopper |
| 02:30.43 | _Psycho_ | but i think it was a basic shopping list thing not sure at all |
| 02:30.54 | _Psycho_ | maybe the guys did a version more complex |
| 02:31.12 | Shdwdrgn | and if not, is there an OSS program out there which allows you to create a basic list and check off items... something I could use as a starting point to create my own version? |
| 02:31.27 | Shdwdrgn | that sounds promising as a starting point though |
| 02:31.38 | Shdwdrgn | was it available for the Z? |
| 02:34.08 | Shdwdrgn | ah I found them |
| 02:34.14 | Shdwdrgn | thanks for the tip |
| 02:35.37 | _Psycho_ | well it was for Z heheh not sure where |
| 02:35.45 | _Psycho_ | found on the .de site ? |
| 02:36.46 | _Psycho_ | http://www.blackie.dk/Zaurus/Shopper/ |
| 02:36.54 | Shdwdrgn | yeah, on killfiz |
| 02:38.36 | Shdwdrgn | hmm... it's done in java |
| 02:39.10 | _Psycho_ | that version is done in Qt |
| 02:41.23 | Shdwdrgn | KGrok looks interesting along those lines... |
| 02:41.28 | Shdwdrgn | anyone used it? |
| 02:42.03 | _Psycho_ | im still waiting my C700 to get here =p |
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| 02:42.56 | Shdwdrgn | bummer |
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| 03:55.40 | hobbs | la la LA la la |
| 04:07.06 | Shdwdrgn | wow it's sure busy in here at night <grin> |
| 04:13.54 | mashi | i need some help |
| 04:18.35 | hardwire | http://crud.bogomip.com/girville.jpg |
| 04:19.06 | Shdwdrgn | ask a question if you want an answer |
| 04:19.53 | mashi | i need help compiling OZ.. it stop in oz-base |
| 04:20.22 | mashi | i figure it out... |
| 04:20.23 | mashi | thanks |
| 04:24.16 | warmi | uh .. Slashdot editors are so damn leftist it is not even funny anymore |
| 04:25.34 | gaurdian | warmi...you noticed |
| 04:25.52 | mashi | almost finish my OZ build :> |
| 04:26.05 | warmi | heeh ... looks like Salon is going out of business - good riddance |
| 04:26.08 | effy-kun | LOL, slashdot editors are leftist? |
| 04:26.16 | warmi | gaurdian : yeah ... |
| 04:26.30 | gaurdian | most of the posters also |
| 04:26.36 | warmi | effy-kun : well, some of them are like completely biased - Michael for example |
| 04:27.18 | warmi | gaurdian yeah - I guess this days it is "cool' to be anti-corporation, anti-everything-that-made-this-country-work |
| 04:27.46 | gaurdian | yup...its unfortunate but true |
| 04:27.47 | mspencer | it's also cool to be anto-corporation and pro-things-that-make-this-country-work |
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| 04:27.55 | mspencer | erm anti :) |
| 04:28.16 | mspencer | Yeah, isn't that annoying? :) |
| 04:28.21 | warmi | well, at least freshmeat has no bias at all |
| 04:28.24 | warmi | heh |
| 04:28.40 | gaurdian | I glance at the headlines to see if there is anything interesting.... |
| 04:29.09 | gaurdian | what I like is that /. is so anti MS but runs ads for MS Visual Net and such |
| 04:29.32 | warmi | gaurdian I do like to read /. as long as they keep their "news" within technology field |
| 04:29.37 | gaurdian | I just love their flexible standards |
| 04:30.02 | warmi | there is alot of bullshit but once in a while someone will post something interesting .. |
| 04:30.04 | hobbs | well there is _some_ difference between /. and OSDN |
| 04:30.10 | gaurdian | I must admit some of their tech stuff is good |
| 04:30.17 | warmi | there are a lot of techies reading this forum and some of them do have interesting things to say |
| 04:31.02 | warmi | hobbs : hehehe |
| 04:32.03 | warmi | well, I bet most of the people who read /. do work with MS technologies so , having MS Visual Net adds on that site doesn't seem that odd to me |
| 04:32.42 | gaurdian | warmi , but read all the anti MS stuff on there, then look at the ads.....just REAL ironic I think |
| 04:33.45 | warmi | well, some would say that having anti-MS site being financed by MS adds is a genius idea .. |
| 04:33.46 | warmi | :-) |
| 04:34.23 | gaurdian | maby |
| 04:36.06 | warmi | well, but at least sometimes /. does have , what I would consider, a good news - like for example their story about demise of Salon |
| 04:36.07 | warmi | :-) |
| 04:36.19 | warmi | alright, good night |
| 04:36.25 | gaurdian | granted, they do have some decent articles sometimes |
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| 04:43.12 | DocWhat | howdy |
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| 04:49.15 | gaurdian | http://www.youdontknowwhoiam.org |
| 04:49.17 | gaurdian | hehe |
| 04:52.51 | mrluisp | lol |
| 04:55.02 | DocWhat | oooh |
| 04:55.07 | DocWhat | That's annoying. |
| 04:59.33 | mashi | weird |
| 04:59.42 | mashi | X11 compile with intel compiler |
| 04:59.57 | mashi | and try to link with arm lib or something |
| 05:04.02 | effy-kun | that is definitely annoying |
| 05:04.03 | effy-kun | ;) |
| 05:04.39 | mashi | yeah |
| 05:05.02 | effy-kun | not the part where it says "you are an idiot", though :P |
| 05:05.17 | mashi | i am checking where it's went wrong |
| 05:05.35 | effy-kun | checking what? |
| 05:05.38 | mashi | it should be ok now |
| 05:05.51 | mashi | the xmakefile |
| 05:05.57 | effy-kun | heh ok |
| 05:07.55 | mashi | that's nice.. it use cc to compile |
| 05:08.10 | mashi | and try to use ld to arm lib |
| 05:09.12 | mashi | cc -o makestrs -O2 -fexpensive-optimizations -fomit-frame-pointer -L/home/bubsy/zaurus/openzaurus/buildroot-oz/output/staging/arm-linux/lib -Wl,-rpath-link,/home/bubsy/zaurus/openzaurus/buildroot-oz/output/staging/arm-linux/lib makestrs.o |
| 05:09.16 | mashi | that's nice |
| 05:12.57 | mashi | ignore X11 now.. let other stuff build first |
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| 05:19.08 | chouimat|Zzzz | night |
| 05:20.42 | mashi | night |
| 05:28.10 | effy-kun | night choui |
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| 05:37.42 | mspencer | Well, I finished my battery pack. :) |
| 05:39.55 | mspencer | I have pictures, if anyone's interested :) |
| 05:40.41 | TheMasterMind1 | show me |
| 05:41.24 | mspencer | http://mspencer.net/battery/finished-1.jpg -- that's the battery holders outside the boxes, splayed out so you can see how it works. |
| 05:42.03 | mspencer | http://mspencer.net/battery/finished-2.jpg -- that's the battery pack in its intended environment -- my bookbag. (I'm a 26 y.o. college senior and full time employee, so it's safe for me to do this. High school guys might want to rethink...) |
| 05:42.18 | TheMasterMind1 | heh |
| 05:42.56 | TheMasterMind1 | is the voltage regulated? |
| 05:43.02 | mspencer | http://mspencer.net/battery/finished-3.jpg -- and with the bookbag closed. That last pocket, too small to put books in anyway, looks pretty full now. But this doesn't add much bulk, and that long lead wire gives me plenty of length to plug into the Z. |
| 05:43.17 | mspencer | No, but other people have been successfully using AA and AAA batteries to power their Z via the AC adapter... |
| 05:44.34 | gaurdian | I would try it....but got issuesd with trying a 300$+ experament |
| 05:44.48 | TheMasterMind1 | yea, it'll work but its not such a great idea i don't think. the circuitry is designed to be fed a rocksolid voltage and the powersupply should be able to handle the amount of current.. though i maybe wrong about the rocksolid powersupply thing, i've only worked with analog circuits in the past and those are picky about powersupply |
| 05:45.43 | mspencer | Right -- digital circuits can usually take a range of inputs, but too little causes unreliable service and too much causes overheating or burnout. |
| 05:45.56 | mspencer | I have no idea about the screen though -- no idea how that will react to too much or too little voltage. |
| 05:46.04 | TheMasterMind1 | probably not well |
| 05:46.16 | TheMasterMind1 | voltageregulator would be a good idea either way |
| 05:46.31 | mspencer | A regulator would eat a lot of power... |
| 05:48.07 | mspencer | ack, left the soldering iron plugged in! |
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| 06:02.14 | mashi | still working on the external battery ? |
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| 06:19.45 | mspencer | oh, sorry :) |
| 06:20.10 | mspencer | no, I'm done with it for now -- until I get my C700 and my batteries :) |
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| 08:24.56 | frankps | morning |
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| 09:01.39 | NoRemorse | hmm is there a crond on z by default? |
| 09:01.42 | NoRemorse | OZ |
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| 10:04.48 | Twiun | hey Neo :) |
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| 13:16.13 | Piete | anyone know of a timer app for the zaurus that includes a count-down feature? |
| 13:18.43 | Shdwdrgn | the clock app has a stopwatch mode |
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| 13:20.26 | Piete | Shdwdrgn: yea, but thats not useful for say, counting down 3 hours, with lots of pauses in between, and then ringing after it finaly reaches the end |
| 13:20.33 | Piete | hey ljp |
| 13:22.15 | Piete | hmm, where did the zauruszone howtos move? |
| 13:22.29 | Piete | like http://www.zauruszone.com/howtos/linux_compiler_setup_howto.shtml |
| 13:24.52 | Twiun | docs.zaurus.com somewhere I think |
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| 13:25.07 | ljp | hello |
| 13:25.13 | Piete | thanks |
| 13:31.16 | greentea | zaurus c700 rocks |
| 13:33.00 | Trinity | can anybody tell my wy my "Light and Power" Icon won't work any longer? |
| 13:33.05 | Quilb | im having trouble finding a store in australia that sells the 5500 |
| 13:33.26 | Trinity | Where can I enter the path to the Application for an icon? |
| 13:33.27 | Quilb | i found a few online stores. but no real life ones near me. |
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| 14:57.21 | warmi | hi |
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| 15:15.14 | quenda | Hi ! |
| 15:16.04 | quenda | can anyone else get access to the zaurus-devel archives on sourceforge ? |
| 15:16.35 | quenda | wont let me in - despite telling me I am subscribed etc |
| 15:20.06 | warmi | it doesn't work for me either |
| 15:22.48 | quenda | pleased to hear it - I thought I was going nuts |
| 15:23.32 | quenda | I posted about 4 days ago, and haven't been able to see replies. |
| 15:24.05 | jackass | a |
| 15:25.21 | quenda | Any ideas on whether the ir port is synchronous ? If I can send and receive at the same time, then pointing the Z at a mirror whould make a tacho. |
| 15:27.47 | Quilb | its simplex |
| 15:27.51 | Quilb | i think |
| 15:28.07 | Quilb | can send and recieve but not both at once. |
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| 15:28.25 | Quilb | but im not 100% sure. |
| 15:29.21 | icefox | Morning |
| 15:29.41 | quenda | No, I couldn't see anything which spelt it out. Simplex would be easiest to do, but duplex would be possible by separarting detector and emitter |
| 15:29.56 | quenda | evening |
| 15:30.44 | Quilb | quenda: true |
| 15:32.39 | quenda | even if simplex, a little oscilator running a LED on the other side of whatever is rotating would work, but is not as elegant. |
| 15:32.57 | quenda | Do you know where I could find out ? |
| 15:34.14 | Quilb | email sharp |
| 15:36.00 | quenda | Quilb: good idea - should have done so earlier |
| 15:40.14 | icefox | Quilb: what is your question? |
| 15:40.21 | icefox | I mean quenda |
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| 15:40.49 | Quilb | <quenda> Any ideas on whether the ir port is synchronous ? If I can send and receive at the same time, then pointing the Z at a mirror whould make a tacho. |
| 15:41.22 | icefox | async I think |
| 15:41.48 | quenda | that would be nice |
| 15:43.10 | quenda | I will email sharp I think. That was a good idea. |
| 15:45.44 | quenda | I just cant get past that damned ir. What else can it be used for? heart monitor? (maybe too weak led but with external source ... ) ditto barcode scanner - but probably harder with ext source |
| 15:46.04 | quenda | I' fixated ~ |
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| 16:49.33 | mark | hi chouimat, kergoth, icefox, bipolar, treke |
| 16:49.49 | chouimat | hi mark |
| 16:50.20 | mark | thats better :) |
| 16:50.28 | kergoth | hey |
| 16:51.01 | mark | do TT have a qt3 based qtopia yet? |
| 16:51.12 | icefox | yes, internally only though |
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| 16:51.18 | icefox | it is called qtopia 2.0 |
| 16:52.15 | chouimat | morning |
| 16:52.50 | mark | icefox: ah ok, thanks |
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| 16:55.43 | icefox | mark: as for when Sharp will use it I havn't a clue |
| 16:55.52 | icefox | at the current rate.... |
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| 16:57.10 | mark | icefox: heh |
| 16:57.29 | treke | icefox: would you also give us a 5 day forecast for hell? |
| 16:57.56 | icefox | well it is only monday in my cube.... |
| 17:20.20 | hardwire | http://www.bevnet.com/reviews/dnl/ |
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| 17:24.02 | simcon | hi |
| 17:24.45 | simcon | i have a question about developing on the zaurus under linux... |
| 17:25.53 | simcon | i have setup the free sdk etc. and compiled the example program, but if i want to design forms for qtopia then do i need to use a special version of designer-qt? |
| 17:26.11 | treke | simcon: the qt 2.3 version will work fine |
| 17:26.58 | simcon | ok i think that answers my proble, coz i have designer-qt3 and it creates different .ui files that don't compile |
| 17:27.19 | simcon | :) |
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| 17:28.31 | simcon | so i need gcc-2.9x for sure and an older qt2. basically them my mandrake 9 is too new and i should install an older one like mandrake 8.2 |
| 17:29.16 | simcon | treke: do you develop on linux for zaurus? |
| 17:29.39 | treke | simcon: Just download the source for qt 2.3 and compile it |
| 17:30.01 | simcon | ok |
| 17:30.27 | simcon | thanks for your help |
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| 17:37.10 | jackass | hi |
| 17:37.25 | jackass | has anyone here play with zaurus with usagi? |
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| 17:50.43 | Neo|Work | well, Dragon Bane 2 is indeed closer to release |
| 17:54.57 | Neo|Work | after that, I might work on HDB |
| 17:56.18 | Cloudchaser_ | hiya |
| 17:56.24 | Cloudchaser_ | dragon bane 2 eh? |
| 17:56.26 | Cloudchaser_ | ;) |
| 17:58.35 | Neo|Work | yes |
| 17:58.45 | Cloudchaser_ | i'm looking forward to that one i think ;) |
| 17:58.47 | Neo|Work | fixed a nasty bug yesterday |
| 17:58.55 | Neo|Work | it's definitely a no-action game. :P |
| 17:59.47 | Cloudchaser_ | no action at all? |
| 17:59.54 | Neo|Work | no time critical stuff |
| 17:59.57 | Neo|Work | battle is turn based |
| 18:00.05 | Cloudchaser_ | ah |
| 18:00.06 | Neo|Work | ie, select what do do, and watch it play out |
| 18:00.11 | Neo|Work | then you repeat until done |
| 18:00.21 | Neo|Work | Bard's Tale style (if you ever saw that game) |
| 18:01.05 | Cloudchaser_ | haven't but i think i know what you mean |
| 18:01.16 | Cloudchaser_ | i like to explore and things |
| 18:01.19 | Cloudchaser_ | so i think i'd like it |
| 18:01.47 | Wintre | Hi chaser |
| 18:01.54 | Cloudchaser_ | hello there :) |
| 18:01.59 | Wintre | How're things? |
| 18:02.30 | Cloudchaser_ | not too bad thanks.. and with you? |
| 18:03.56 | Wintre | Pretty good |
| 18:04.02 | Wintre | How's the programming coming? |
| 18:04.20 | Cloudchaser | its coming along slowly |
| 18:04.35 | Cloudchaser | should be better now that i've got my kit from *looks around* ms |
| 18:04.48 | Cloudchaser | so i can work on it at home |
| 18:04.51 | Wintre | Kit from MS!? |
| 18:05.00 | Cloudchaser | hehe its a visual basic class |
| 18:05.07 | Cloudchaser | pre-req at the college for c++ |
| 18:05.13 | Cloudchaser | had to take it! i swear! |
| 18:05.13 | Wintre | Did anything ever come of Python? |
| 18:05.43 | Cloudchaser | still haven't got it installed (the black adder) and haven't had time really with working part time and school full time |
| 18:05.46 | Cloudchaser | but part time work is over now |
| 18:05.49 | Cloudchaser | so i'll get back to it |
| 18:05.59 | Cloudchaser | going to try another linux distro |
| 18:06.04 | Cloudchaser | see if i have better luck with it |
| 18:08.08 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser: wtf? visual basic is a prereq for C++? that's insane |
| 18:08.14 | kergoth | yeah |
| 18:08.20 | kergoth | stupid |
| 18:08.29 | Cloudchaser | yes i agree |
| 18:08.31 | Neo|Work | I don't see the relevance. :P |
| 18:08.31 | Cloudchaser | but it is |
| 18:08.47 | Neo|Work | now, when I went to college, Pascal is usually where teaching started |
| 18:08.56 | Neo|Work | but then again, Pascal started as a teching language too |
| 18:09.56 | Wintre | Pascal should have stopped there |
| 18:10.08 | Wintre | BASIC of course was also a teaching language |
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| 18:12.43 | Neo|Work | basic is so out-of-date these days though and visual basic is just scary |
| 18:14.03 | Cloudchaser | well.. i had to start somewhere |
| 18:14.10 | Cloudchaser | and on my own i wasn't having much luck |
| 18:14.43 | Wintre | Chaser: Just remember to forget as much of the language as possible when you're done with the class ;) |
| 18:14.45 | Neo|Work | understood, not complaining at you. :P |
| 18:15.16 | Cloudchaser | and they don't offer python or qt |
| 18:15.16 | hardwire | http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-2.html <- pretty amazing |
| 18:15.30 | Cloudchaser | just java, visual basic and c++ |
| 18:15.37 | Cloudchaser | but again |
| 18:15.48 | Cloudchaser | the visual basic is pre req to java too |
| 18:16.09 | kergoth | ew |
| 18:17.00 | Wintre | ^shrug^ No surprises there. |
| 18:17.12 | Wintre | It's the distance from academia to the practical world |
| 18:18.40 | Cloudchaser_ | exactly |
| 18:18.50 | Cloudchaser_ | its the same with networking classes |
| 18:18.55 | Cloudchaser_ | way out of date |
| 18:19.00 | Cloudchaser_ | and basic |
| 18:19.46 | Cloudchaser_ | i just want to get a degree though |
| 18:19.48 | Wintre | It's not really a mistake - the goal isn't to give students an advanced education |
| 18:19.51 | Cloudchaser_ | so...i do what i have to |
| 18:20.07 | Wintre | They'll be learning plenty more on their own if they choose e.g. networking as a speciality |
| 18:20.28 | Cloudchaser_ | Wintre: i understand that but 2 years ago when i checked on classes they were still teaching netware as networking class |
| 18:20.32 | Cloudchaser_ | old one at that |
| 18:20.37 | Cloudchaser_ | no cisco classes at all |
| 18:20.52 | Wintre | That stuff doesn't belong in a university at all |
| 18:20.57 | Wintre | That's job training, not education |
| 18:21.14 | Cloudchaser_ | well neither does computers then |
| 18:21.33 | Wintre | Computer science certainly does |
| 18:21.47 | Cloudchaser_ | computer science maybe |
| 18:22.04 | Cloudchaser_ | but there's all kinds of other classes that are "training" classes |
| 18:22.27 | Cloudchaser_ | but since there aren't really many "technical schools" |
| 18:22.46 | Cloudchaser_ | they've got all kinds of degrees for all kinds of things that really don't require "university" |
| 18:23.28 | Cloudchaser_ | anyway.. its the U.S. educational system |
| 18:23.37 | Cloudchaser_ | its what we have, so we have to work with it |
| 18:25.28 | Cloudchaser_ | also the need was there..and industry needs trained people |
| 18:25.29 | Wintre | I don't remember that much in the way of "training" at my university |
| 18:25.40 | Wintre | Maybe there was more in IT than in CS |
| 18:25.44 | Wintre | (probably there was) |
| 18:26.58 | Cloudchaser_ | anyway...i understand your point |
| 18:27.43 | jackass | nothing beats programming in c |
| 18:27.44 | Cloudchaser_ | and i remember a time when a foreign language was a requirement for a degree |
| 18:27.54 | Cloudchaser_ | but ...doesn't seem to be the case these days |
| 18:27.59 | jackass | and reading kernel sources |
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| 18:29.13 | frankps | hi all |
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| 18:32.59 | Wintre | It was when I graduated only a few years sago |
| 18:33.45 | Cloudchaser | you are in europe aren't you? |
| 18:36.36 | Wintre | I live in Oslo, yeah, but I'm American, remember |
| 18:38.47 | *** join/#zaurus warmi (~a3c01503@dsl092-131-081.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 18:39.32 | mewyn` | hey warmi |
| 18:39.38 | Cloudchaser_ | ah i didn't realize you were an american or forgot :) |
| 18:40.09 | Cloudchaser_ | how did you get job in oslo? |
| 18:40.28 | Cloudchaser_ | did you work for trolltech in US first? |
| 18:41.04 | frankps | yet another zaurus user in Oslo ;-) |
| 18:41.15 | jackass | hi, where can i find a how to for compiling kernel? |
| 18:41.38 | kergoth | jackass: google. |
| 18:42.57 | jackass | i did that.. but the link doesn't work for zauruszone |
| 18:43.04 | jackass | i went to zaurus.com, |
| 18:43.09 | jackass | no info on compiling kernel |
| 18:43.17 | kergoth | what info do you need? |
| 18:43.23 | kergoth | its just like compiling any other linux kernel |
| 18:43.33 | jackass | i want to know what are the patches i need |
| 18:43.41 | jackass | i had compiled for ipaq before |
| 18:43.44 | kergoth | rmk, np, and embedix |
| 18:43.50 | jackass | where can i get them? |
| 18:43.58 | kergoth | google. |
| 18:44.02 | jackass | ok |
| 18:44.04 | jackass | thanks |
| 18:44.17 | kergoth | uname -a on your Z tells you everything you need to know |
| 18:44.22 | kergoth | the kernel version string outlines the patchset |
| 18:44.25 | kergoth | 2.4.6-rmk1-np2-embedix |
| 18:44.27 | kergoth | .. |
| 18:44.33 | kergoth | 2.4.6 + -rmk1 + -np2 + embedix |
| 18:44.42 | Neo|Work | by the way, americal education, especially up until highschool, is a constant joke for Swedes |
| 18:45.17 | Neo|Work | like the kids who can't point out where on a world map the US is (i.e some pointer to, then, USSR, because it looked "about right" and was the biggest :-) |
| 18:45.54 | Cloudchaser_ | its a joke yes |
| 18:46.00 | Neo|Work | And I personally might consider moving back to sweden by the time the kids start school, or at least a few years later |
| 18:46.11 | Cloudchaser_ | but alot of kids don't have any desire to learn either |
| 18:46.22 | Cloudchaser_ | you lived in sweden neo? |
| 18:46.27 | Neo|Work | sure, but that exists everwhere |
| 18:46.39 | kergoth | heh, one big problems with the US educational system is that it forces everyone to learn at the same rate, or tries to |
| 18:46.47 | Neo|Work | I am from Sweden - I lived there for the first... 22 yrs of my life or something like that |
| 18:46.49 | kergoth | so half the kids are bored, the other half are being pushed too hard |
| 18:46.50 | kergoth | heh |
| 18:46.52 | warmi | kergoth: which , these days, is set very low |
| 18:46.56 | kergoth | warmi: indeed |
| 18:46.56 | treke | Neo|Work: Its a constant joke for americans also |
| 18:47.10 | Neo|Work | kergoth: that's true in Sweden too but it's a hard problem to solve |
| 18:47.22 | Neo|Work | and smart kids also don't WANT to stand out |
| 18:47.47 | kergoth | Neo|Work: indeed, requires individual attention, higher teacher-student ratio |
| 18:47.53 | kergoth | which is a bit difficult given the little funding education gets here |
| 18:47.59 | Neo|Work | i.e my sister is really smart and could easily take English classed, math etc at a higher level but she doesn't want to be cause it's embarrasing or what not |
| 18:48.13 | warmi | Neo|Work: the alternative for you would be to send your kids to some other school, say catholic one or whatever |
| 18:48.27 | Cloudchaser_ | my little boy.. when he was in first grade, read much higher than the class he was in |
| 18:48.31 | Cloudchaser_ | he asked for extra work |
| 18:48.35 | Cloudchaser_ | extra reading |
| 18:48.39 | Neo|Work | warmi: I'm ultra-atheist (or at least agnostic) so that'd be a hard one to do. :P |
| 18:48.44 | Cloudchaser_ | his teacher told us "we ca'nt do this" |
| 18:48.53 | Wintre | kergoth: I first worked technical support at the college of education in my university |
| 18:49.01 | Cloudchaser_ | they teach to the lowest common denominator and thats it |
| 18:49.04 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser: so wonderful the system is... |
| 18:49.14 | warmi | Neo|Work: it doesn't matter- you send them there for quality of education and discipline not religious values |
| 18:49.17 | Wintre | And one evening I wound up at a party with some education majors, where one of them was talking about "mainstreaming" or some bloody thing |
| 18:49.25 | Neo|Work | Wintre: you work at Trolltech? |
| 18:49.30 | Wintre | And about how the "gifted" kids in her school condescended to the rest of them |
| 18:49.39 | Wintre | How that irritated her |
| 18:49.47 | Wintre | I was *infuriated* |
| 18:49.50 | Neo|Work | warmi: except that my wife went and she wanted to be a nun for some time when she went. :P |
| 18:49.57 | Neo|Work | she came back to her senses but still |
| 18:50.05 | Wintre | The gifted program I was in as a kid was the only part of elementary school worth a damn |
| 18:50.08 | warmi | Neo|Work: well, hehe .. but she did come out ok, didn't she ? |
| 18:50.09 | Cloudchaser_ | when my son was in kindergarten, he was tested for gifted |
| 18:50.13 | Wintre | Neo: Yep, I'm a troll |
| 18:50.15 | warmi | that's what matters most |
| 18:50.16 | warmi | heh |
| 18:50.19 | Cloudchaser_ | in north carolina |
| 18:50.21 | Neo|Work | what I DO want to look at is the "alternative" schools, which use more imagination in the teaching |
| 18:50.31 | Cloudchaser_ | in first grade in CT, he's now ADD |
| 18:50.33 | Neo|Work | i.e learning with all senses, starting with foreigh languages in first grade etc |
| 18:50.38 | warmi | Neo|Work: it is all about discipline or lack thereof |
| 18:50.53 | Neo|Work | warmi: no, it is not |
| 18:50.56 | Wintre | Chaser: I was friends with Arnt Gulbrandsen long ago, and when I became convinced at my previous company that The Web Must Die, Trolltech got its first round of investment and started growing |
| 18:50.58 | Wintre | So here I am |
| 18:51.03 | Neo|Work | it's about teaching methology too |
| 18:51.15 | warmi | you can't allow 11 years olds to "think" too much , they need to be forced to do certain things otherwise they simply won't - by definition you cannot reason too much with a kid |
| 18:51.22 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe thats cool wintre |
| 18:51.47 | Cloudchaser_ | i just want my son to be allowed to progress while he still has an interest in learning |
| 18:51.58 | frankps | wintre: I will be visiting trolltech on thursday, any chance of meeting you ? |
| 18:52.01 | Cloudchaser_ | in a few years, with the drones he gets as teachers..he'll lose that |
| 18:52.01 | Neo|Work | warmi: again, I think you're completely incorrect. It might be true using the normal way of teaching but it uses just one or two senses (hearing, seeing). |
| 18:52.09 | Wintre | I'll tell you, the most tortured sentence of English I have ever seen was written by a PhD candidate in English |
| 18:52.17 | Neo|Work | even at older ages, other senses help in learning a lot |
| 18:52.20 | Wintre | And I think she had some goddamn journalism major to edit her papers |
| 18:52.24 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe |
| 18:52.27 | Cloudchaser_ | thats sick |
| 18:52.28 | Wintre | I thought that was a joke |
| 18:52.47 | Neo|Work | 6 yr olds are the best memory players ever - they have more or less photographic memory |
| 18:52.47 | warmi | Neo|Work: what you are talking about can be introduced later in the educational process - kids from 6-11 or so simply aren't mature enough to understand need for education |
| 18:52.51 | Wintre | It certainly makes a mockery of academia |
| 18:52.52 | warmi | they need to be forced |
| 18:52.57 | Neo|Work | when we get older, school teaches us to lose those abilities |
| 18:53.06 | Cloudchaser_ | warmi i kind of disagree |
| 18:53.07 | Neo|Work | it's taught that way, not just lost because we geow |
| 18:53.13 | Cloudchaser_ | when you kds are curious and want to learn |
| 18:53.18 | Cloudchaser_ | its the methods that turn them off |
| 18:53.20 | Wintre | warmi: I remember "seat work" around that age - being stuck with a bunch of papers with stupid addition problems to do |
| 18:53.21 | mewyn` | warmi: no change at the trib? |
| 18:53.27 | kergoth | Cloudchaser_: yep |
| 18:53.28 | Cloudchaser_ | they are full of energy ahd have to sit in a chair all day |
| 18:53.28 | Neo|Work | warmi: kids WANT to learn new things, seriously |
| 18:53.29 | kergoth | I hated school |
| 18:53.31 | kergoth | it was boring as fuck |
| 18:53.36 | kergoth | and didnt learn a damn thing |
| 18:53.37 | warmi | Cloudchaser: well, look at US system where kids are allowed to run amock ( or aren't punished in any way for missed homework etc ) |
| 18:53.38 | Wintre | It was nuts. Talk about working against the nature of children |
| 18:53.40 | Neo|Work | the ages you're talking about is when I WANTED to learn (and often didn't) |
| 18:53.43 | Cloudchaser_ | my son wants to learn to program games |
| 18:53.47 | Cloudchaser_ | i can't teach him |
| 18:53.47 | Neo|Work | later it was just a boring chore |
| 18:54.12 | Cloudchaser_ | i tried to get him some things but he *needs* someone who knows it to teach him |
| 18:54.24 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser: exactly, the old schooling system is outdated - we know better these days |
| 18:54.25 | Wintre | Cloud: How old is he? |
| 18:54.29 | warmi | mewyn: I heard nothing so far |
| 18:54.30 | Cloudchaser_ | he is just 10 |
| 18:54.35 | Cloudchaser_ | i got an app |
| 18:54.41 | Cloudchaser_ | for him |
| 18:54.41 | Wintre | Neat, I wanted to do that around that age too |
| 18:54.44 | Neo|Work | unfortunately better ways of teachign requires teaching the teaches and imho more resources to the schools |
| 18:54.52 | Cloudchaser_ | but..i had a hard time with it |
| 18:55.01 | kergoth | Neo|Work: yep, the schools arent funded nearly well enough to begin with |
| 18:55.04 | Wintre | I'll tell ya, the education students at Kent were a pretty god-awful bunch |
| 18:55.11 | Cloudchaser_ | he would so love to build things, model things, hands on visual |
| 18:55.15 | warmi | Neo|Work: well , it worked to get us where are we now - do you have any examples of better shooling system ? a proven example ? |
| 18:55.16 | Cloudchaser_ | he'll learn the facts to go with it |
| 18:55.16 | Neo|Work | there ARE schools that DO education that way but they are rare and, I believe, rather expensive |
| 18:55.19 | kergoth | I learned more at home with my head in a groliers encyclopedia than I did at school |
| 18:55.20 | Wintre | Not the brightest kids out there |
| 18:55.24 | Neo|Work | but I'd be damned if I don't try to do that for my kids |
| 18:55.31 | warmi | it is easy to f** up things but much harder to fix it back |
| 18:55.34 | Wintre | Neo: Where do you live now? |
| 18:55.43 | Neo|Work | warmi: I do but I don't remember any actual pointers now |
| 18:55.45 | Cloudchaser_ | and.. i tried catholic school |
| 18:55.46 | Neo|Work | Wintre: Seattle |
| 18:55.50 | Cloudchaser_ | he went for 2 years |
| 18:55.56 | Cloudchaser_ | not much better than the public |
| 18:55.59 | Wintre | Neo: Oh, so the weather's just like home ;) |
| 18:56.03 | Cloudchaser_ | and less services |
| 18:56.03 | Wintre | Dammit, I missed frankps |
| 18:56.05 | Neo|Work | it's much stricter |
| 18:56.33 | Cloudchaser_ | i've checked out some other types of schools |
| 18:56.38 | Cloudchaser_ | but there's no way i can afford them ;( |
| 18:56.38 | Wintre | Neo: How long have you been there? |
| 18:56.43 | Neo|Work | now, allowing anything is equally bad, but I think a major part of the reasons for unruly kids is that it's HARD for kids, especially youngher ones, to sit in class all day |
| 18:56.52 | *** join/#zaurus ljp_work (~ljp@04-175.026.popsite.net) |
| 18:56.53 | Neo|Work | Wintre: soon 7 yrs |
| 18:56.59 | Cloudchaser_ | Neo|Work: i agree |
| 18:57.09 | Cloudchaser_ | they are stifled |
| 18:57.14 | Wintre | Yeah |
| 18:57.16 | Cloudchaser_ | their imaginations and there energy |
| 18:57.24 | Wintre | No wonder people hate school |
| 18:57.28 | Cloudchaser_ | i'm so tempted to home school |
| 18:57.38 | Cloudchaser_ | but i'm afraid i'd fail him :( |
| 18:57.47 | Neo|Work | we are untaught our way of learning that we know from birth and taught a less efficient way |
| 18:57.48 | Wintre | Home schooling is pretty scary, I must say |
| 18:58.00 | warmi | Wintre: kids will always hate school for the simple reason that it is much more fun to hang out outside etc ... |
| 18:58.02 | Neo|Work | Wintre: I'd be dubious about that too for several reasons |
| 18:58.19 | Wintre | But - the quality of the schools and teachers is even worse |
| 18:58.19 | Cloudchaser_ | warmi but think of the amazing things they can learn outside a classroom! |
| 18:58.25 | Wintre | warmi: I don't think I agree. |
| 18:58.30 | Neo|Work | warmi: I don't believe that. not like it as much perhaps but "hating" school is not necessary. I didn't hate school in general |
| 18:58.36 | Wintre | Indeed |
| 18:58.47 | Cloudchaser_ | my son said this morning.. after a weeks vacation..i can't wait to get to school! |
| 18:58.48 | warmi | Cloudchaser: sure, but if you don't teach them "not so amazing things " like algebra etc .. it won't do you much good |
| 18:58.59 | Cloudchaser_ | thats for older kids warmi |
| 18:59.04 | Cloudchaser_ | the little ones want action |
| 18:59.07 | Cloudchaser_ | making things |
| 18:59.08 | Neo|Work | I hated certain classes (religion, history and other information-thick, non-brainstimulating classes that was mostly teacher spewing information) |
| 18:59.10 | Cloudchaser_ | building tihngs |
| 18:59.15 | *** join/#zaurus frankps (~fsilye@10.80-202-169.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:59.18 | Cloudchaser_ | drawing things |
| 18:59.47 | Neo|Work | and mind you, teaching math using other senses work perfectly |
| 19:00.04 | Neo|Work | what better way to illustrate fractions than to take a cake/apple/thing and cut it into pieces |
| 19:00.06 | chouimat | warmi: I hate school because I was in the higher portion of the class, and the teacher spended too much time with those with difficulties (that good), but sometimes the gifted ones have nothing to do and waste their time |
| 19:00.29 | Neo|Work | then the kids SEE what it means which helps mahy a whole lot (most peopel can't just "see" how math works in their head) |
| 19:00.32 | Cloudchaser_ | chouimat: imagine how gifted with difficulties kids manage |
| 19:00.37 | Neo|Work | most of us probably could, but the majority can't |
| 19:00.45 | warmi | Cloudchaser: perhaps but beside hardcode knowledge they also need to learn responsibility .. something that you learn by being forced to do things you do not feel like doing etc .. |
| 19:01.05 | Cloudchaser_ | yes thats true also |
| 19:01.13 | Neo|Work | I remember in math we had certain questions of the text book we should answer, say 1/3-1/2 of them all |
| 19:01.16 | Cloudchaser_ | but a combination of things would work better |
| 19:01.29 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: I had the impression to waste my time, and bored kids are bound to be like bart simpsons :) |
| 19:01.29 | Neo|Work | I always ended up doing them all and still being done before most |
| 19:02.01 | Cloudchaser_ | chouimat: i spent alot of time bored too |
| 19:02.06 | Neo|Work | warmi: you should understand that neither Cloudchaser or I argue that kids should get to do whatever they want to do |
| 19:02.11 | Neo|Work | that'd never work of course |
| 19:02.41 | Cloudchaser_ | kids should be taught from very young that its *cool* to learn |
| 19:02.43 | warmi | I still remember that I learn most with teachers that we all were afraid of - being humiliated in front of the entire class was a reason enough for me to learn even if I had no personal interest in a given subject |
| 19:02.49 | chouimat | the problem with teacher is that they don't motivate the kids enought |
| 19:03.07 | Cloudchaser_ | this year my son's teacher seems very good |
| 19:03.11 | mewyn` | i learned the worst with those |
| 19:03.24 | Cloudchaser_ | he's in 4th grade and its the first one since kindergarten that is good |
| 19:03.36 | Neo|Work | warmi: then I'm guessing you're a minority |
| 19:03.49 | Cloudchaser_ | but there's also the issues of kids who have parents with no interest in their education |
| 19:03.50 | Neo|Work | kids that feel scared/threatened don't want to express themselves |
| 19:03.53 | warmi | mewyn: if say you are completely uninterested in chemistry - then you will not learn anything unless you are forced to - it is as simple as that |
| 19:04.04 | Neo|Work | i.e they refrain from answering questions because they dont' want to be humiliated |
| 19:04.07 | Neo|Work | works like shit |
| 19:04.20 | warmi | Neo}Work: sure but if your kid doesn't give a damn about something - how is he going to express himself/herself ? |
| 19:04.38 | Neo|Work | certainly not by being opressed |
| 19:04.45 | mewyn` | warmi: i don't know. when i'm being scared into doing something, i have less of an ambition to do it, and i become resolved to my fate of whatever happens |
| 19:04.47 | warmi | anyway, if you think you can improve on 2000 years old system then be my quest .. |
| 19:04.53 | chouimat | the current education politic here is that teacher must make more than 85% of the kids pass their classes so ... you can imagine the level of difficulty of those classes |
| 19:04.53 | Neo|Work | and I still maintain that by the time kids "don't give a damn" it's to a large degree too late |
| 19:05.05 | Cloudchaser_ | chouimat: exactly! |
| 19:05.13 | Cloudchaser_ | and they teach to the standards tests |
| 19:05.35 | Neo|Work | warmi: dude, I won't even argue with you. obviously you think the US educational system is perfect despite having among the less knowledgable kids in the world |
| 19:05.46 | chouimat | Cloudchaser_: so gifted kids will get bored and will be demotivated ... |
| 19:05.56 | warmi | Neo|Work: I think US sytem is one of the worst - precisely because it doesn't enfore anything |
| 19:06.03 | Neo|Work | demotivation / boredom is the main reasons for kids hating school too |
| 19:06.15 | warmi | enforce even |
| 19:06.19 | Cloudchaser_ | what don't they enforce warmi? |
| 19:06.33 | warmi | nothing, they will let the kid pass just for showing an effort |
| 19:06.49 | Cloudchaser_ | yes i have seen that |
| 19:06.57 | zecke | warmi: hi |
| 19:06.57 | Cloudchaser_ | my older son was passed through the grades |
| 19:07.09 | chouimat | Neo|Work: you 95% say in maths and the teacher is explaining a notion for the 5th time and you understood it the first time .... a cllown is born :) |
| 19:07.11 | Cloudchaser_ | i tried to have him kept back when he was in 2nd or 3rd grade |
| 19:07.14 | warmi | this is completely messed up when at the start of the school year teacher says that if the kid complains about having "too much " homework - they will take that into consideration |
| 19:07.31 | warmi | I remember , in my school , every damn kid complained about having too much homework |
| 19:07.32 | warmi | come on |
| 19:07.48 | Cloudchaser_ | it takes my son ususally 10 minutes or less to complete his homework |
| 19:08.00 | warmi | yeah, that is a joke |
| 19:08.06 | Cloudchaser_ | and he has an attention problem ;) |
| 19:08.07 | warmi | I used to spent 1-2 hours |
| 19:08.16 | Cloudchaser_ | would take him 5 if he paid attention the whole time |
| 19:08.21 | Cloudchaser_ | well.. he's 10 |
| 19:08.25 | warmi | so was I |
| 19:08.25 | Cloudchaser_ | so 1-2 hours is a bit much |
| 19:08.29 | Cloudchaser_ | ah |
| 19:08.34 | Cloudchaser_ | i don't remember having that much at 10 |
| 19:08.38 | warmi | it was like one essey , 3 pages of math stuff etc .. |
| 19:08.45 | Neo|Work | warmi: the US school does seem to have too much homework compared to the Swedish one |
| 19:08.49 | Cloudchaser_ | but that was really long time ago so i forget |
| 19:08.53 | Neo|Work | pretty much proves that more homework doesn't mean better schooling |
| 19:09.01 | Neo|Work | so thanks for making that point. ;-) |
| 19:09.09 | warmi | Neo|Work: then I guess there is no homework in Sweden at all because my son completes his in 10 minutes |
| 19:09.16 | warmi | just like Cloudchaser kid |
| 19:09.25 | chouimat | Neo|Work: hehe :) better teacher and motivated kids is the best |
| 19:09.28 | Neo|Work | at age 10, you don't need a whole lot of homework |
| 19:09.29 | warmi | Neo|Work: proves what ? |
| 19:09.34 | Neo|Work | at age 15, it's different |
| 19:09.49 | Neo|Work | warmi: Swedish schools/kids knowledge scores very high globally |
| 19:09.52 | warmi | no offense but I do not consider Sweden to be a good model :-) |
| 19:10.08 | gaurdian | Neo|Work , no , doesnt prove that at all. There are MANY reasons for the differences in educational systems. |
| 19:10.10 | Neo|Work | and from what I've heard you have more schoolwork in the US, such as over-the-weekend stuff which NEVER happened in Sweden |
| 19:10.14 | chouimat | but at 15 is harder to make them do their homework :) |
| 19:10.24 | Neo|Work | unless it was a once-a-week class tht only was on mondays, but then it was a week's worth |
| 19:10.33 | zecke | warmi: what do you need to write a program for PPC2002? |
| 19:10.40 | mewyn` | i don't think it's always a good idea to have a lot of busy work |
| 19:10.47 | kergoth | zecke: drugs? |
| 19:10.48 | kergoth | zecke: :) |
| 19:10.51 | Neo|Work | warmi: And why is Sweden not a good model if I might ask? it works hell of a lot better than the US? |
| 19:10.54 | gaurdian | Sweeden is a good model of over taxation socialism, thats about it |
| 19:11.01 | warmi | zecke: nothing - embedded Visual C++ is available for free |
| 19:11.02 | chouimat | hmmm weekend homeworks .... or how to write a 45 essey in two days |
| 19:11.06 | warmi | and that's just about all you need |
| 19:11.13 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand |
| 19:11.18 | chouimat | s/45/45 pages |
| 19:11.20 | zecke | kergoth: yes but this is unrelated.. some on perscription some illegal... |
| 19:11.22 | gaurdian | Yes it does actually |
| 19:11.26 | kergoth | zecke: hehe |
| 19:11.31 | gaurdian | it has quite a bit |
| 19:11.35 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: no it doesn't. |
| 19:11.40 | zecke | warmi: do you happen to have a url? |
| 19:11.46 | gaurdian | for example, in Sweeden are the teachers Govt employees or not ? |
| 19:11.55 | warmi | Neo|Work: well, I do consider Sweden to be way over .... they are, in my opinion, approach SU levels of government power |
| 19:12.00 | Neo|Work | point is that Swedish kids are smarter than US kids. this is not because of genetics (well I suppose it could be but I won't go there) |
| 19:12.12 | warmi | there are limitations for everyhing - you can't have this, you can't have that |
| 19:12.13 | warmi | etc |
| 19:12.14 | chouimat | Neo|Work: lol |
| 19:12.20 | Neo|Work | warmi: comes from someone who never lived in Sweden or similar countries |
| 19:12.28 | Neo|Work | Sweden is more of a democracy than the US |
| 19:12.42 | Neo|Work | where you can become president with a minority of the votes |
| 19:12.43 | gaurdian | Neo, now that is a joke. |
| 19:12.47 | Neo|Work | and where there are TWO parties |
| 19:12.49 | warmi | Neo|Work: well, you know I can't argue with you about that - it is pointless , it is your country |
| 19:12.52 | warmi | :-) |
| 19:13.03 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: again, you know shit |
| 19:13.09 | gaurdian | Neo, youre going to believe what you want, thats fine. |
| 19:13.09 | chouimat | Neo|Work: look at also the cultural background of peoples |
| 19:13.24 | Neo|Work | I've lived in both countries so I'm uniquely qualified to argue that point |
| 19:13.24 | warmi | Neo|Work: you need to learn to be a bit less confrontational - we are talking here you know |
| 19:13.28 | gaurdian | Neo, again believe what you want, live youre delusions |
| 19:13.28 | warmi | we are not trying to offend you |
| 19:13.56 | Neo|Work | you are making accusations without actually knowign what you're talking about. that always bugs me |
| 19:14.03 | Neo|Work | ignorance of a subject doesn't make you an expert |
| 19:14.05 | gaurdian | You seem to state your OPINIONS as fact. |
| 19:14.11 | gaurdian | and you are doing the same |
| 19:14.27 | gaurdian | Exactly Neo, take your own advice |
| 19:14.36 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: so how many years have you lived in Sweden and what do you base your comments on during your time living there? |
| 19:14.48 | *** join/#zaurus mark (~mark@s.westcott.freeuk.com) |
| 19:15.12 | warmi | Neo|Work: I read stories abou Sweden written by folks who emigrated to US - come on, everyone knows that Sweden is way to left even compared to Europe , let alone US |
| 19:15.20 | Neo|Work | you know there's high taxes and make your comments from that point of view. That's always about all people know of sweden it seems |
| 19:15.34 | Neo|Work | and of coursse that makes it a communist country that should be invaded and eradicated |
| 19:15.36 | gaurdian | Neo, if sweeden is so great, why are you HERE ? |
| 19:16.06 | gaurdian | did someone FORCE you here ? |
| 19:16.07 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: oh, I knew that'd come up. My wife is from here and she wanted to go home because she missed here family (nothing else mind you) |
| 19:16.10 | Cloudchaser_ | i'd work in sweden if i could get a job and health care |
| 19:16.13 | Neo|Work | I don't miss my family the way she does |
| 19:16.23 | *** part/#zaurus mewyn` (~mike@dsl081-228-057.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:16.28 | Neo|Work | thus we live here |
| 19:16.31 | gaurdian | Ahh....so youre here on youre own free will then. |
| 19:16.33 | Cloudchaser_ | but even if i got a job...i wouldn't get the health care |
| 19:16.57 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: of course, but strongly influenced by the fact that I want to be within reach of my wife |
| 19:17.02 | Wintre | warmi: I live in Norway. Been here for a couple of years |
| 19:17.07 | Wintre | Grew up in the US |
| 19:17.07 | gaurdian | Its amazing, "my country is better, but I am here" |
| 19:17.11 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser_: of course you would? |
| 19:17.18 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: it is better in many ways yes |
| 19:17.21 | Wintre | I certainly don't feel like it's some dictatorship |
| 19:17.25 | treke | gaurdian: So, if we can learn something from sweden we should |
| 19:17.27 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: and you have heard nothing I said have you? |
| 19:17.27 | gaurdian | and worse in ways also I am sure |
| 19:17.40 | gaurdian | everything has benefits and drawbacks |
| 19:17.44 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: sure, high taxes suck at times, no question about it |
| 19:17.53 | Cloudchaser_ | Neo|Work: i'm not a citizen |
| 19:18.07 | Cloudchaser_ | from what i understand..medical insurance is socialized |
| 19:18.11 | Neo|Work | however as I said earlier in the discussion there's a very strong possibility that we move back to sweden by the time the kids are old enough for school |
| 19:18.26 | Wintre | warmi: Practically speaking the most irritating regulation I've found is regarding opening hours, particularly on the weekends |
| 19:18.28 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser: I am no expert but afaik if you have a work, you get health insurance |
| 19:18.34 | Wintre | But that's mostly an inconvenience. |
| 19:18.41 | Neo|Work | well, not "insurance' per se |
| 19:18.46 | Neo|Work | but health coverage |
| 19:19.00 | Neo|Work | my wife had it when she lived there and if you had a job and lived there you definitely would have it |
| 19:19.08 | Wintre | An English guy I work with was irritated by regulations governing sales of stuff he wanted for do-it-yourself electrician's work |
| 19:19.12 | Neo|Work | only cost is like a 15-20$ per visit (not sure what it is) |
| 19:19.14 | Neo|Work | for anything |
| 19:19.24 | warmi | Wintre: there are a lot of things ( about Sweden at least) which remind me of old communistic style crap - like limitations on how many apartaments you can own in major cities etc . |
| 19:19.45 | gaurdian | and I also notice you generalise a lot Neo, for example, you cant say that ALL sweedish education is better than ALL us education |
| 19:19.48 | Neo|Work | warmi: huh? where have you heard that? |
| 19:19.54 | warmi | of course, I haven't lived there - just quoting what I read from people coming from Sweden |
| 19:20.00 | Neo|Work | I can buy any number of houses and appartments at my pleasure |
| 19:20.05 | warmi | Neo|Work: I will try to find an article about this stuff |
| 19:20.10 | Neo|Work | warmi: I assume you have also heard we can't mow our lawn on sundays |
| 19:20.13 | Wintre | warmi: I haven't heard anything about that |
| 19:20.20 | Wintre | Which I guess doesn't mean much |
| 19:20.29 | treke | Neo|Work: sweden is in alabama?! |
| 19:20.31 | Neo|Work | there's in general no inhibitation of freedom |
| 19:20.39 | Neo|Work | none that I have ever run into |
| 19:20.44 | Wintre | warmi: Here's something for you. Consider the fact that almost all media companies in the US are owned by a small handful of conglomerates |
| 19:20.48 | Cloudchaser_ | Wintre: do you have health insurance with trolltech? |
| 19:20.53 | Wintre | Consider the implications |
| 19:20.59 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: never said "ALL". I said in average/in general |
| 19:21.05 | Wintre | And think about whether limitations on breadth of ownership are a good idea |
| 19:21.12 | Neo|Work | looking at test scores from a test taken by students all over the world for example |
| 19:21.15 | warmi | Wintre: well, as opposed to being owned by a goverment ? |
| 19:21.20 | Neo|Work | Sweden was close to the top, the US was far down |
| 19:21.26 | Wintre | Cloudchaser_: Yeah. So far I haven't had to use it at all - I'm lazy about learning about such things |
| 19:21.37 | Wintre | warmi: As opposed to being owned by lots and lots of little companies who compete. |
| 19:21.45 | gaurdian | test scores in what ? who creadted the tests....lets have some background instead of just random statements |
| 19:21.53 | warmi | Neo|Work: well, could very well be - but that doesn't translate into economic wealth and technical leadership ( or any other leadership) |
| 19:22.00 | Neo|Work | warmi: Sweden has two state owned TV-channels. of course they are only used for communist propaganda |
| 19:22.01 | warmi | there is something about US .... |
| 19:22.17 | Neo|Work | and all other TV channels are also communist propaganda because, of course Sweden is a communist country |
| 19:22.24 | Cloudchaser_ | so where's a nice warm place with good schools? |
| 19:22.26 | Neo|Work | we have no free will there and I'm programmed to say what I say |
| 19:22.33 | Neo|Work | so now stop your uneducated bullshit please |
| 19:22.42 | warmi | Wintre: which then tend to gravitate into congomerates - unless someone steps in .. |
| 19:22.56 | Neo|Work | Sweden (and the general area) is surprisingly high up on the technical leadership |
| 19:23.09 | Neo|Work | not to mention technical innovations throughout the times |
| 19:23.31 | warmi | Neo|Work: no offense but why are you here ? why did Linus move to US ? |
| 19:23.37 | warmi | there are reasons for that you know :-) |
| 19:23.44 | Wintre | warmi: Yes. There were regulations governing the number of radio stations a single company could own |
| 19:23.46 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser: We don't have "health insurance" in sweden - it's nothing you "have" or "don't have" |
| 19:24.04 | Neo|Work | warmi: I already told you why - my wife missed her family |
| 19:24.09 | Neo|Work | that is the ONLY reason. ONE AND ONLY reason |
| 19:24.35 | Neo|Work | and as I have said on many occasions, even my ALL AMERICAN wife wants to move back to sweden when we can afford it so that the kids have a better place to grow up |
| 19:24.39 | Wintre | warmi: The industry was *de*regulated, and there was a lot of consolidation, and I can't see that that benefits anybody but the owners of the companies |
| 19:25.04 | gaurdian | Wintre , and what is wrong with owners benefiting ? |
| 19:25.29 | gaurdian | you bsay that like owners shouldent benefit at all |
| 19:25.36 | warmi | Neo|Work: that's your opinion - I would never want to live in place like Sweden but that's just me |
| 19:25.38 | Wintre | guardian: They do so at the expense of the consumer. |
| 19:25.44 | Wintre | And there is a significant danger |
| 19:26.09 | gaurdian | So as a business owner I shouldent benefit from my work in starting the business ? |
| 19:26.58 | Wintre | Certainly not, but your benefit has to be balanced against the public interest |
| 19:27.28 | gaurdian | Uh.....and who determines that balance / Its MY business, shouldent I be able to run it as I see fit ? |
| 19:27.49 | Neo|Work | and of course, communist countries like Sweden and Norway have no public ownership. as a matter of fact, owning money or anything else is outlawed. |
| 19:27.50 | treke | gaurdian: Not when you've been granted a monopoly on the resource and are now being let lose |
| 19:28.06 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: so you think that Microsofts way of doing business is healthy? |
| 19:28.19 | gaurdian | Neo, I actually have no problems with MS |
| 19:28.21 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: meaning pretty mucn blackmailing PC-makers and others |
| 19:28.32 | gaurdian | Its market economics |
| 19:28.43 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: it's bad bigtime for consumers |
| 19:29.01 | Cloudchaser_ | you want to see american schools get better? |
| 19:29.02 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: and it makes it hard for anyone else to "benefit from starting a business" in that area |
| 19:29.02 | gaurdian | How has it been bad for me ? |
| 19:29.07 | Neo|Work | practially makes it impossible |
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| 19:29.15 | Cloudchaser_ | send some polititians kids to the inner city schools |
| 19:29.27 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: when you buy a PC you pretty much has to pay $100-200 more for the pleasure of Microsoft OS |
| 19:29.27 | warmi | Neo|Work: no, but as far as I am concerned ( and a lot of Americans as well) they are bordering on communism - but ,hey if people prefer this kind of stuff , their choice |
| 19:29.30 | gaurdian | I seem to have had no problems starting and growing my business |
| 19:29.35 | Neo|Work | even if you don't plan to use it ever |
| 19:30.09 | Cloudchaser_ | i worked in the poorest school district ct for a year and a half..the schools were disgusting, the kids didn't have enough books..and that year, the mayor spent 5 MILLION dollars on his new office |
| 19:30.16 | gaurdian | Neo, actually, I dont pay that extra 100-200 you mention, there are alternatives |
| 19:30.19 | Neo|Work | warmi: it's far from communism. there are a SLEW of parties on both sides of the "line". |
| 19:30.38 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: not long ago you couldn't get a brand name PC without Windows |
| 19:30.44 | Cloudchaser_ | (thats poorest school district in CT) |
| 19:30.46 | Neo|Work | now you can because Microsoft was bitchslapped somewhat |
| 19:30.59 | gaurdian | Neo, but NOW that arguement hold no water Neo, lets talk about NOW |
| 19:31.21 | gaurdian | \and even 2-3 years ago you could get a system without windows |
| 19:31.32 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: NOW it's getting better BECAUSE there has been RULINGS by the STATES/GOVERNMENT AGAINST Microsoft |
| 19:31.47 | warmi | Neo|Work: no, I do not mean communistic dictatorship - just a model where everyone is expected to contribute and stuff then is shared according to what some politician deems reasonable |
| 19:31.48 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: the very thing you ARGUE AGAINST is what is making things better now |
| 19:31.59 | Cloudchaser_ | yes but they don't go far enough do they :) |
| 19:32.22 | gaurdian | Not at all, I had no problems with MS 2-3 years ago either, If I wanted a system without windows then I could get one |
| 19:32.27 | Neo|Work | Cloudchaser: correct but it's still the main reason I today can buy a dell withot windows (or can I?) |
| 19:32.42 | Cloudchaser_ | i though they stopped selling without MS |
| 19:32.45 | gaurdian | Yes, Neo you can |
| 19:32.53 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: sure yoy can always build your own system but getting a brand name box w/o windows was close to imposible |
| 19:32.59 | Cloudchaser_ | and what about if i want...a fujitsu lifebook series P without windows/ |
| 19:33.08 | Neo|Work | MS forced the computer makers into doing their wishes |
| 19:33.19 | gaurdian | I dont know..never bought one Cloudchaser. |
| 19:33.21 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe |
| 19:33.24 | Neo|Work | and if they didn't they would like double the cost for the OEM |
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| 19:33.27 | Cloudchaser_ | exactly..you can't |
| 19:33.31 | warmi | guardian: see, this is what I was talking about yesterday - most geeks are very anti-corporations , generally anti-status quo whatever that means |
| 19:33.32 | Neo|Work | that is not good for anyone but Microsoft |
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| 19:33.41 | gaurdian | you dont KNOW that, all I said is I dont know. |
| 19:33.48 | Neo|Work | I'm all for corporations, just not monopolistic matters |
| 19:33.55 | treke | gaurdian: uhm yes we do know that |
| 19:33.56 | gaurdian | warmi , yup...known that for a while |
| 19:34.09 | Neo|Work | for example IBM is a huge, previouslyt monopolistic companyt which today is still huge but does business in a much better way |
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| 19:34.22 | gaurdian | but I happen to own a successfull business, so I definately dont fit in there |
| 19:34.26 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: and as treke said, we know exactly that this is the case. |
| 19:34.37 | gaurdian | treke, we do/ I dont |
| 19:34.37 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: what does your business do? |
| 19:34.43 | treke | gaurdian: And what type of business are you in |
| 19:34.54 | treke | gaurdian:Well we cant help that you wont accept reality here |
| 19:35.07 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: we we do, we have brains. YOU know what tactics microsoft has used and still use I'm sure |
| 19:35.14 | gaurdian | realty is that my company is doing fine treke |
| 19:35.21 | treke | If I'm in the catering business microsoft's actions arent going to have all that much of an effect on me |
| 19:35.37 | Neo|Work | realty? that's hardly comparable since youy can't have a "monopoly" in that area |
| 19:35.45 | Neo|Work | to any large degree at least |
| 19:35.49 | gaurdian | I own a small consulting company |
| 19:36.04 | Neo|Work | keyworkds: "small" "consulting" |
| 19:36.19 | gaurdian | small, as compared to some others, yes |
| 19:36.33 | Neo|Work | try to start a operating system company and then see how well you do, even if you're well funded and have a superb product |
| 19:36.41 | Neo|Work | you'll find it close to impossible to get even 1% market share |
| 19:36.43 | treke | try any form of hardware or software company |
| 19:36.45 | gaurdian | why would I want to ? |
| 19:36.54 | gaurdian | I have no desire to do that |
| 19:37.03 | Neo|Work | because you're theoretically unhappy with Windows (why did BeOS exist?) |
| 19:37.04 | kergoth | whether you would want to or not is irrelevent. nobody cares what you want. they were making a point |
| 19:37.07 | kergoth | which you obviously failed to get |
| 19:37.12 | gaurdian | and that totally depends on the target market also |
| 19:37.27 | Neo|Work | for operating systems, not really |
| 19:37.32 | gaurdian | I got their point, but there werent being specific at all |
| 19:37.39 | Neo|Work | wtf?! |
| 19:37.44 | kergoth | then why spew garbage about what you want? |
| 19:37.46 | kergoth | if you got it? |
| 19:37.47 | *** mode/#zaurus [+b *!*@*.client.attbi.com] by Neo|Work |
| 19:37.49 | *** kick/#zaurus [gaurdian!~neotron@207.188.30.40] by Neo|Work (Neo|Work) |
| 19:37.49 | ulyx | Neo|Work: die! |
| 19:37.55 | kergoth | aha |
| 19:37.58 | treke | ha |
| 19:38.20 | Neo|Work | hrm. I just banned my home client. :P |
| 19:38.22 | treke | I think Neo|Work won that argument |
| 19:38.27 | *** mode/#zaurus [-b *!*@*.client.attbi.com] by Neo|Work |
| 19:38.55 | Cloudchaser_ | lol |
| 19:39.03 | kergoth | 'i have no desire to do that' sure translates to an acknowledgement of the point alright |
| 19:39.06 | kergoth | theres some logic for you |
| 19:39.25 | Neo|Work | in either case, time to relax and take a deep breath |
| 19:39.42 | kergoth | and have a beer, but we cant. damn work :) |
| 19:40.11 | *** join/#zaurus gaurdian (mzsxer@12-213-124-251.client.attbi.com) |
| 19:40.27 | gaurdian | No Neo, that just shows your maturity....no supprise |
| 19:40.50 | gaurdian | you believe what you want and anyone who disagrees be dammed |
| 19:41.00 | treke | I cant be the only freaking person in the world who cant accept a package at 11am on a monday |
| 19:41.09 | warmi | Neo|Work: is very short-tepmered , I have noticed that too gaurdian |
| 19:41.17 | Neo|Work | ok damn it |
| 19:41.25 | kergoth | gaurdian: I'm still wondering why you start spewing meaningless statements about what you desire instead of acknowledging the point. |
| 19:41.29 | kergoth | gaurdian: i find that curious |
| 19:41.30 | *** mode/#zaurus [+b *!*@12-213-124-251.client.attbi.com] by Neo|Work |
| 19:41.33 | *** kick/#zaurus [gaurdian!~neotron@207.188.30.40] by Neo|Work (Neo|Work) |
| 19:41.33 | ulyx | Neo|Work: wanker! |
| 19:41.37 | *** mode/#zaurus [+b *!*@*.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net] by Neo|Work |
| 19:41.39 | *** kick/#zaurus [warmi!~neotron@207.188.30.40] by Neo|Work (Neo|Work) |
| 19:41.40 | ulyx | Neo|Work: wanker! |
| 19:41.45 | *** mode/#zaurus [+b *!*@*.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca] by Neo|Work |
| 19:41.47 | *** kick/#zaurus [ulyx!~neotron@207.188.30.40] by Neo|Work (Neo|Work) |
| 19:41.57 | *** mode/#zaurus [-b *!*@*.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net] by Neo|Work |
| 19:41.57 | treke | by by chouimat |
| 19:41.58 | *** join/#zaurus mewyn` (~mike@dsl081-228-057.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:42.04 | *** mode/#zaurus [-b *!*@*.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca] by Neo|Work |
| 19:42.38 | *** join/#zaurus warmi (~a3c01503@dsl092-131-081.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
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| 19:43.03 | Neo|Work | let's just drop this discussion. it can go on forever and it's offtopic |
| 19:43.15 | mewyn` | good plan |
| 19:43.25 | *** mode/#zaurus [-b *!*@12-213-124-251.client.attbi.com] by Neo|Work |
| 19:43.39 | *** join/#zaurus gaurdian (mzsxer@12-213-124-251.client.attbi.com) |
| 19:44.06 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: one more work on this discussion from you or anyone else and I won't remove the ban. I'll ban myself if I don't shut up. |
| 19:44.28 | Neo|Work | gaurdian: it's hopelessly offtopic and politics is never a good thing to discuss |
| 19:44.44 | Neo|Work | since it's something people have strong opinions about and never change their midn about |
| 19:44.55 | kergoth | hehe, i love politics discussion.. but then, i like to argue :) |
| 19:45.13 | Wintre | Heh |
| 19:45.24 | Wintre | Dammit, I wanted to get back into this discussion after dinner! ;) |
| 19:46.01 | Neo|Work | kergoth: there's a time and a place and this is neither, really |
| 19:46.23 | Neo|Work | feel free to join #flamolitics or something to continue |
| 19:47.05 | treke | next topic. familar vs oz |
| 19:47.11 | treke | fight! |
| 19:47.34 | Neo|Work | heh |
| 19:47.37 | Neo|Work | no opinion. :P |
| 19:48.50 | kergoth | tabs vs spaces! |
| 19:48.51 | kergoth | :) |
| 19:48.57 | Neo|Work | both |
| 19:48.58 | Neo|Work | :) |
| 19:49.16 | Neo|Work | better discussion: number of spaces per level. :P |
| 19:49.17 | kergoth | ew! |
| 19:49.18 | Neo|Work | I say '2' |
| 19:49.20 | kergoth | hah |
| 19:49.24 | Neo|Work | emacs does it for you |
| 19:49.29 | Neo|Work | no need to bother with the details |
| 19:49.32 | kergoth | course the new discussion implies you dont use hard tabs |
| 19:49.34 | kergoth | :) |
| 19:49.57 | kergoth | I like hard tabs or ts8 myself, but thats cause i'm used to the linux kernel coding style |
| 19:50.06 | kergoth | i'm growing to like 4 space in my other stuff |
| 19:50.07 | Neo|Work | I press 'tap' to indent and emacs does it in 2 spce increments, using tabs when possible |
| 19:50.18 | Neo|Work | 2-4 is ok, 1 is too little, > 4 is way too much |
| 19:50.26 | Neo|Work | and 8 is braindead. :P |
| 19:50.27 | kergoth | yeah, 2 space, space indentation, tabs used for compression |
| 19:51.13 | kergoth | Neo|Work: 8 space works.. if you fall off your terminal due to indentation, its time to redesign the code :) |
| 19:51.15 | kergoth | hehe |
| 19:51.22 | Neo|Work | now a more heated discussion can be held on indentation style |
| 19:51.26 | kergoth | hehe |
| 19:51.35 | treke | vi vs emacs |
| 19:51.39 | Neo|Work | kergoth: with 8 spaces, you don't need much to wrap the "sacred" 80 characters |
| 19:51.40 | kergoth | s/vi/vim/ |
| 19:51.51 | oGMo | don't indent and no newlines... if you can't write it on one line, it's not worth writing! |
| 19:51.55 | Neo|Work | treke: bah, no argument needed there- emacs wins hands on. :P |
| 19:52.07 | kergoth | oGMo: man, thats a perl user statement if ive ever heard one |
| 19:52.09 | kergoth | oGMo: hehe |
| 19:52.10 | treke | Neo|Work: unless you already have an s installed |
| 19:52.12 | oGMo | kergoth: hehe |
| 19:52.19 | treke | os |
| 19:52.22 | oGMo | i'm actually anti-perl |
| 19:52.29 | oGMo | but i was just being extreme |
| 19:52.38 | oGMo | tabs are evil though |
| 19:52.49 | kergoth | dontcha just love perl modules that are one hundred line regular experssion? |
| 19:52.55 | kergoth | hehe |
| 19:53.44 | kergoth | I'm totally sold on linux kernel coding style for most things. k&r + 8 char indent and/or hard tab.. i wish they wouldve specified which |
| 19:53.54 | Neo|Work | now what is TRUELY evil using tabs with 2 character tab stop |
| 19:54.03 | Neo|Work | someone I knew used tabs like that in vi |
| 19:54.07 | hardwire | la |
| 19:54.08 | treke | kergoth: try the GNU style |
| 19:54.11 | oGMo | i go for 4-char indents |
| 19:54.12 | chouimat | Neo|Work: no windows style varibale :) |
| 19:54.14 | treke | kergoth: its much better |
| 19:54.15 | Neo|Work | guess how nice that code looked like in emacs with the standard 8 space tabs |
| 19:54.15 | kergoth | Neo|Work: aha,thatll look like shit on any other box.. |
| 19:54.21 | kergoth | treke: i dont like gnu style |
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| 19:54.42 | oGMo | i don't really care as long as it's not less than 4 |
| 19:54.44 | Neo|Work | I have a indentation style I like, compact but clear. :P |
| 19:54.45 | treke | chouimat: you mean no lpqwcstrnTmp? |
| 19:54.52 | oGMo | 2 spaces are nuts |
| 19:54.52 | Neo|Work | meaning spaces where applicable but not everywhere |
| 19:54.53 | chouimat | treke: exactly |
| 19:55.00 | treke | kergoth: I know. its a good awful style |
| 19:55.08 | kergoth | I like c++ variable naming, and kernel variable naming |
| 19:55.11 | kergoth | but i hate when they mix |
| 19:55.14 | treke | chouimat: Mr. Simony should be shot for that |
| 19:55.20 | Neo|Work | such as 'if ( foo && bar )\n {\n code\n } |
| 19:55.21 | kergoth | ThisInterruptHandler in a driver |
| 19:55.23 | Neo|Work | but rather |
| 19:55.35 | Neo|Work | if(foo && bar) {\n code\n} |
| 19:55.51 | oGMo | Neo|Work: i do that, with 4 spaces |
| 19:55.55 | oGMo | i always put { on the line before |
| 19:56.02 | Neo|Work | kergoth: what is kernel variable naming and "c++ variable naming"? |
| 19:56.05 | kergoth | I follow k&r braces |
| 19:56.07 | oGMo | except for one liners when i don't even use a \n |
| 19:56.09 | chouimat | kergoth: or code where the author put too much functions in it : myuselessfunction1(....) etc ... |
| 19:56.11 | Neo|Work | oGMo: I find it easier to read that way |
| 19:56.15 | kergoth | Neo|Work: referring to capitalization vs underscore word seperation |
| 19:56.20 | oGMo | and I use a lot of vertical alignment :) |
| 19:56.22 | kergoth | Neo|Work: ThisMethod .. this_function |
| 19:56.49 | oGMo | int a = 0; |
| 19:56.49 | oGMo | fooble blah = ...; |
| 19:56.55 | Neo|Work | kergoth: Ah, I use foo_bar when I program Pike in general (varibales, methods etc) and for variables in C++ |
| 19:56.56 | oGMo | i like nice tabulation |
| 19:57.08 | Neo|Work | but for classes I use FooBar and in C++/Java I use fooBar for methods |
| 19:57.14 | Neo|Work | because it's more of the norm |
| 19:57.21 | Neo|Work | Pike is, in general, foo_bar() rather |
| 19:57.29 | Neo|Work | meanin std library and such |
| 19:57.38 | oGMo | Neo|Work: ruby is that way too |
| 19:57.40 | kergoth | yeah, so more like C naming, by convention |
| 19:57.48 | Neo|Work | right |
| 19:57.50 | oGMo | i don't care as long as it's _uniform_ |
| 19:57.56 | Neo|Work | I try to be consistent |
| 19:57.56 | oGMo | uniformity counts for so much |
| 19:57.57 | Neo|Work | oGMo: right |
| 19:58.06 | chouimat | Neo|Work: I had to fix a c++ program where in one case, the system spend about 76% of the time doing function call, mostly one line or two functions |
| 19:58.20 | Neo|Work | I think goo_bar is easier to read though since there's a clearer seperation |
| 19:58.22 | chouimat | s/two/two line |
| 19:58.43 | Neo|Work | chouimat: eek. but that's a code problem not a naming issue. :P |
| 19:58.48 | Neo|Work | but still sounds absurdly hight |
| 19:59.03 | oGMo | chouimat: sounds like a case for inline ;) |
| 19:59.12 | Neo|Work | did it have lots of non-inlined virual methods doing fooadd() { foo++; } or what? :P |
| 19:59.14 | kergoth | oGMo: inline wont make it any less ugly :) |
| 19:59.25 | kergoth | just less horrendously slow |
| 19:59.25 | kergoth | hehe |
| 19:59.41 | Neo|Work | inlining is nice though |
| 19:59.55 | Neo|Work | since yuo can safely write cleaner code w/o performance penalties |
| 19:59.58 | oGMo | kergoth: no but if 76% of the time is spent in doing function calling, then it should improve performance ;) |
| 20:00.02 | kergoth | Neo|Work: indeed |
| 20:00.07 | chouimat | oGMo: not really just redesign the code and I got a nice 165 lines function that and a lot of if and switch but taked care of everypossibilities in updateclientaccount :) |
| 20:00.14 | oGMo | that's what i thought the issue was, maybe i misread |
| 20:00.31 | oGMo | chouimat: hrm :P |
| 20:00.38 | Neo|Work | refactoring might be a better option than inlining. :P |
| 20:00.40 | Neo|Work | in that case |
| 20:00.47 | oGMo | i'm of the school of thought that a function should do one thing only |
| 20:00.54 | Wintre | Lots of if and switch doesn't sound very elegant |
| 20:01.00 | oGMo | yeah |
| 20:01.06 | kergoth | heh, theres a balance to be found |
| 20:01.13 | kergoth | i think chouimat took it from one extreme to the other :) |
| 20:01.14 | oGMo | i've never seen an easily-maintained large function |
| 20:01.28 | kergoth | oGMo: agreed |
| 20:01.34 | chouimat | oGMo: me too but since that systems was also distributed and multiuser I got a very good speed improvement |
| 20:02.02 | oGMo | usually the time saved not making a separate function gets far outweighed by having to edit it later |
| 20:02.09 | oGMo | chouimat: hrm |
| 20:02.21 | oGMo | i would have to see specifics to comment further |
| 20:02.22 | Neo|Work | in RocketElite there was one method in particular (that updated state of all "entities" and other things in the game each frame) |
| 20:02.38 | Neo|Work | which was huge. took forever to compile (some excessive inlining by me made it worsr but never mind that) |
| 20:02.58 | oGMo | Neo|Work: was it a template function? |
| 20:02.59 | Neo|Work | I split it up in very logical sub-methods (4-5 or so) and compilation went from like 10 minutes to 20 seconds or something |
| 20:03.02 | oGMo | oh |
| 20:03.04 | Wintre | Hah |
| 20:03.06 | Neo|Work | no, just a large method |
| 20:03.09 | oGMo | k |
| 20:03.17 | chouimat | kergoth: a lot of add2toaccount() can be replaced by if (transtype==345) {account.balance+=2;} |
| 20:03.26 | oGMo | templates are usually what cause huge balooning compile times for me |
| 20:03.30 | Neo|Work | for some reason for the gcc used by the cross compiliation environment (i.e arm compiler) was REALLY slow on that method |
| 20:03.38 | oGMo | not that i use them anymore ;) |
| 20:03.40 | Neo|Work | the x86 compiler didn't have the same issue |
| 20:03.52 | Neo|Work | templates also tend to cause binary bloat |
| 20:03.59 | oGMo | Neo|Work: yeah |
| 20:04.04 | Neo|Work | so I avoid them when possible for my embedded programming |
| 20:04.09 | Neo|Work | but they ARE very nice potentially |
| 20:04.20 | oGMo | templates are my least-favorite C++ "feature" |
| 20:04.31 | Wintre | Hmm, isn't binary bloat an implementation problem? |
| 20:04.40 | Neo|Work | chouimat: that "add2taccount" method is a very nice inlinable solution |
| 20:04.40 | oGMo | but that's just because i favor a particular design style i suppose |
| 20:04.42 | Wintre | The GNU C++ toolchain isn't particularly high-quality, after all |
| 20:04.48 | oGMo | Wintre: not really |
| 20:04.52 | Neo|Work | and I think using inline rather than manual 'if' is much better |
| 20:04.58 | oGMo | Wintre: the worst case is still the same, even if you can optimize |
| 20:05.07 | Neo|Work | say you need to modify it, adding a nother check or whatever, it'd be really hard of it was unrolled |
| 20:05.16 | chouimat | the kernel was written in c++ and was using template a lot in the code |
| 20:05.24 | kergoth | chouimat: ewwwwww |
| 20:05.32 | Neo|Work | chouimat: not slim. :P |
| 20:05.33 | oGMo | haha |
| 20:05.41 | chouimat | Neo|Work: nope |
| 20:05.41 | Wintre | chouimat: Which OS? |
| 20:05.52 | Neo|Work | People, including me in the past, say that C++ is huge and slow. it's not. templates / STL and such tend to make it so though. :P |
| 20:05.53 | oGMo | sounds like BeOS or AtheOS or whatever |
| 20:06.09 | Neo|Work | BeOS was a very elegant and well designed OS though |
| 20:06.12 | Neo|Work | the core at least |
| 20:06.12 | chouimat | Wintre: a microkernel one but not a sucessful one |
| 20:06.28 | oGMo | Neo|Work: i was fairly sure it was C++ though, but i don't know if it used templates or not |
| 20:06.28 | chouimat | oGMo: beos, atheos/syllable kernel are written in C |
| 20:06.30 | Neo|Work | chouimat: hah. "micro" + "C++/templates" = does not compute |
| 20:06.33 | kergoth | hm, busybox xargs has a bug.. it interprets xargs rm -f as -f cmdline opt to xargs, not to rm |
| 20:06.37 | oGMo | chouimat: hrm |
| 20:06.49 | Neo|Work | the BeOS api's are all C++ but I don't know about the kernel |
| 20:06.57 | oGMo | oh yeah... maybe that was it, they ran into versioning issues with C++ so they _didn't_ use it |
| 20:06.57 | chouimat | Neo|Work: in C |
| 20:07.04 | Neo|Work | Wintre: well, I think it's a matter of design rather |
| 20:07.18 | Neo|Work | C++ does _invite_ bloat and slower code though |
| 20:07.21 | Wintre | Making programmers's lives easy is what faster CPUs should be used for :) |
| 20:07.29 | oGMo | Wintre: well, it's not particularly slow and bloated unless you abuse it |
| 20:07.32 | oGMo | Neo|Work: yeah exactly |
| 20:07.39 | Wintre | Though C++ isn't necessarily the best way of doing that |
| 20:07.41 | Neo|Work | excessive use of templates = bloat (but not slow), excessive use of virtual methods and non-inlined mini-function = slow |
| 20:07.49 | oGMo | LISP! |
| 20:07.55 | Wintre | oGMo: Yeah, that's the feeling I generally get as well |
| 20:08.21 | treke | Wintre: only problem I have with that philosophy is it gets taken too extremes too often :) |
| 20:08.32 | Wintre | Which, Moore's Law? |
| 20:08.41 | oGMo | C++ definitely doesn't make my life easy though... i like lots of object inspection and dynamic runtime capabilities |
| 20:08.46 | oGMo | it's very static :( |
| 20:08.50 | treke | Wintre: using faster cpus to make the programmers life easier |
| 20:09.54 | Wintre | Nah, generally faster CPUs are used for useless alpha blending |
| 20:10.08 | oGMo | hehe |
| 20:10.16 | Wintre | Or for processing endless layers of abstraction of dubious value |
| 20:11.12 | oGMo | hehehe |
| 20:11.13 | Neo|Work | gah, in 2 hrs, I need to merge javadoc HTML into a word document |
| 20:11.17 | Neo|Work | how shall I do that.. |
| 20:11.24 | oGMo | i think it's funny how 100MB used to be a lot |
| 20:11.44 | chouimat | oGMo: and 64KB of memory was all we needed :) |
| 20:11.44 | oGMo | and now i waste 400MB recording a 30-minute TV show i'll watch once and delete |
| 20:11.57 | oGMo | and i don't even consider it |
| 20:12.00 | oGMo | chouimat: yeah |
| 20:12.02 | Neo|Work | oGMo: that's what I like with Pike - very dynamic |
| 20:12.07 | Neo|Work | less typesafe |
| 20:12.11 | oGMo | Neo|Work: well |
| 20:12.15 | chouimat | Neo|Work: which version? |
| 20:12.31 | Neo|Work | chouimat: which version of Pike? Any version? |
| 20:12.31 | oGMo | i like strong typing. A _lot_. That doesn't mean it can't be dynamic, though. |
| 20:12.37 | chouimat | Neo|Work: url? |
| 20:12.38 | oGMo | ruby's like that too |
| 20:12.45 | Neo|Work | chouimat: http://pike.ida.liu.se/ |
| 20:12.57 | Neo|Work | oGMo: well, Pike actualyl does allow quite strong typing, but it's optional |
| 20:13.03 | treke | oGMo: Dont forget wasting 50 megs just on the tempfiles for a web browser |
| 20:13.03 | oGMo | Neo|Work: ah |
| 20:13.09 | Neo|Work | there's a #pragma strict_types or something that makes it rather pedantic |
| 20:13.13 | oGMo | treke: yeah |
| 20:13.14 | chouimat | oGMo: but ruby syntax is ugly .... ulyx is writen in ruby and I hate fixing bug in it |
| 20:13.23 | treke | we all hate ulyx |
| 20:13.29 | oGMo | chouimat: hrm, i don't find it ugly |
| 20:13.30 | Neo|Work | but the cool thing is I can do object o = GetAnyObject(); if(o->some_method) { o->some_method(); } |
| 20:13.33 | oGMo | perhaps ulyx is just ugly |
| 20:13.49 | Neo|Work | ruby feels like perl, ergo... :P |
| 20:13.51 | oGMo | it's fairly unified, and mostly modern, with few perlisms |
| 20:14.00 | oGMo | Neo|Work: no, it most definitely doesn't |
| 20:14.12 | oGMo | it took a few things from perl, but most of it came from Smalltalk |
| 20:14.17 | oGMo | and the perlisms are going away |
| 20:14.24 | Neo|Work | also what is nice is that I can do: mapping m = ([]}; m[whatevervariable] = whateverothervar; |
| 20:14.34 | oGMo | well, you _can_ use it like perl, but that'd suck |
| 20:14.35 | Neo|Work | something you can't do in C++ "cleanly" |
| 20:14.51 | Neo|Work | and, as opposed to Java, you don't need ugly casts |
| 20:15.12 | Neo|Work | such as Object o = map.get(key); if(o instanceof String) { String val = (String)o; } |
| 20:15.37 | oGMo | java's blech |
| 20:15.43 | Neo|Work | but you can also do mapping(string:int) m; |
| 20:15.56 | Neo|Work | to get something that requires, compile time, string as key and int as value |
| 20:16.14 | Neo|Work | you can soll fool it run time but in general I like that way of coding. makes things easier |
| 20:16.30 | Wintre | The JVM's the right way of wasting CPU though |
| 20:16.32 | Neo|Work | and of course, it's very similar to other scripting languages too |
| 20:16.34 | Wintre | Well, maybe not quite |
| 20:16.40 | Wintre | But the *idea* makes a lot of sense |
| 20:17.13 | Wintre | (See the secret Java memo on secretmemos.com regarding JVM's suckage) |
| 20:17.18 | Neo|Work | what I find funny with java is that despite being "compiled", startup/loadtimes are horrid |
| 20:17.23 | Neo|Work | chouimat: sugar is Pike |
| 20:17.34 | chouimat | Neo|Work: ok |
| 20:17.49 | Neo|Work | I didn't write it originally tho |
| 20:18.22 | chouimat | Neo|Work: I didn't wrote ulyx code too ... it's was the only available bot in freebsd ports :( |
| 20:18.48 | Neo|Work | http://cvsweb.caudiumforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/sugor/?cvsroot=sugor |
| 20:19.26 | Neo|Work | that one is not identical to my Sugar but probably somewhat further developed |
| 20:20.31 | Neo|Work | and I shall warn you - not the most beautiful code out there. The original author is known for making compact, hard to understand, but usually (often) working code. : |
| 20:20.36 | Neo|Work | as long it doesn't break... :P |
| 20:21.44 | *** join/#zaurus larios (~larios@217.172.69.2) |
| 20:21.49 | chouimat | Neo|Work: look at rbot code and anything will be better |
| 20:22.04 | larios | some body use FLUXBOX on the zaurus ????????????? |
| 20:22.19 | treke | larios: is your '?' key broken? |
| 20:22.24 | treke | larios: it seems to stick |
| 20:22.27 | larios | sorry |
| 20:22.30 | larios | :) |
| 20:22.39 | larios | its a "Tic" |
| 20:22.42 | larios | jejeje |
| 20:22.53 | larios | do you use FluxBox on the zaurus? |
| 20:22.58 | oGMo | yeah, what with the shortage of question marks now... please conserve |
| 20:23.41 | larios | some one? |
| 20:23.42 | chouimat | ulyx fortune bofh-excuses |
| 20:24.10 | oGMo | oh ulyx is an rbot... heh |
| 20:25.17 | oGMo | i know the guy who wrote that, i should get on his case |
| 20:25.27 | *** join/#zaurus ulyx (~charles@modemcable120.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 20:25.37 | *** join/#zaurus frankps (~frankps@10.80-202-169.nextgentel.com) |
| 20:25.57 | frankps | re |
| 20:26.08 | chouimat | ulyx fortune bofh-excuses |
| 20:26.09 | ulyx | BOFH Excuse #338: old inkjet cartridges emanate barium-based fumes |
| 20:35.37 | Neo|Work | new topic: Brusselsprouts, for or against |
| 20:37.06 | kergoth | larios: try matchbox |
| 20:37.10 | chouimat|away | Neo|Work: huh? |
| 20:37.18 | kergoth | larios: better than any of the other WMs on small devices |
| 20:38.19 | Neo|Work | lol: http://www.art.com/asp/sp.asp?PD=10041190&RFID=965584&FT=Y |
| 20:38.32 | Neo|Work | fine art print! |
| 20:39.18 | kergoth | what the .. hell? |
| 20:39.19 | kergoth | heh |
| 20:43.25 | Wintre | I think that's great actually |
| 20:43.30 | mashi | argh |
| 20:43.55 | mashi | kergoth : that's weird. some package use autoconf 2.13 some use autoconf 2.53 |
| 20:44.10 | kergoth | mashi: yes, you have an autoconf wrapper which is calling the correct one when needed |
| 20:44.54 | kergoth | as long as you have an autoconf wrapper, and both a 2.1x and 2.5x autoconf installed, life is generally good |
| 20:44.58 | kergoth | such is not the case for automake unfortunately |
| 20:45.00 | mashi | ohh |
| 20:45.04 | mashi | i got both installed |
| 20:55.02 | larios | kergoth: where can i find it? |
| 20:55.22 | kergoth | larios: google. |
| 20:55.26 | kergoth | ibot: matchbox |
| 20:55.27 | | matchbox is probably a X11 window manager for handheld devices. Info, screenshots & downloadable at http://handhelds.org/~mallum/matchbox . Ipkg is in the familiar unstable feed. Development versions and other goodies at http://handhelds.org/~mallum/downloadables/ |
| 20:55.49 | larios | oki thx :) |
| 20:56.12 | *** join/#zaurus warmi (~a3c01503@dsl092-131-081.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:56.25 | Neo|Work | gah |
| 20:56.39 | Neo|Work | how do I easily convert a HTML document to a word doc or whatever? |
| 20:56.45 | Neo|Work | when I use Word result is really bad |
| 20:56.58 | Neo|Work | if I use OpenOffice it looks fine but it's treated as a webpage.. |
| 20:57.22 | Cloudchaser_ | oh oh! neo if you find out.. let me know! |
| 20:57.57 | Cloudchaser_ | i have tons of stuff i want from web pages to carry the info on my z |
| 20:58.06 | Cloudchaser_ | without having to print it all out |
| 20:58.29 | Cloudchaser_ | html2text didn't cut it for me |
| 20:58.45 | kergoth | why not just browse it on the Z locally w/ opera/konq? |
| 20:59.16 | Cloudchaser_ | well..i've tried that too |
| 20:59.25 | Cloudchaser_ | its too small usually |
| 20:59.36 | larios | y flash my zaurus 2 times per day... its bad?? |
| 20:59.41 | Cloudchaser_ | i tried plucker... |
| 20:59.46 | Cloudchaser_ | and thats nice with opie reader |
| 20:59.53 | kergoth | larios: ? you're the one flashing it, why are you flashing it? |
| 20:59.56 | Cloudchaser_ | but had some formatting issues i haven't figure out yet |
| 21:00.07 | Cloudchaser_ | (all the text was centered) |
| 21:00.39 | Cloudchaser_ | but i'd really like it in doc format so i can pull out certain parts of the text |
| 21:00.44 | Cloudchaser_ | and ditch other parts |
| 21:00.58 | Cloudchaser_ | and somehow organize my random informations ;) |
| 21:01.01 | treke|home | Neo|Work: perl |
| 21:01.23 | kergoth | HTML::Parser |
| 21:01.25 | kergoth | heh |
| 21:01.28 | larios | kergoth: because i install packages.... remove packages.... change distro... |
| 21:01.29 | kergoth | :) |
| 21:01.48 | kergoth | larios: I flash my Z often 3 times a day, some days 20-40 times |
| 21:01.53 | kergoth | larios: you shouldnt have a problem |
| 21:02.01 | larios | oki, thx kergoth |
| 21:02.06 | kergoth | np |
| 21:02.10 | larios | kergoth: what system do you use ??? |
| 21:02.15 | Cloudchaser_ | my dream some day is to make a program to grab the info, format it to z size and also print 4 up on an 8 1/2 by 11 perforated paper |
| 21:02.23 | kergoth | larios: openzaurus, but thats because its my project |
| 21:02.32 | *** join/#zaurus kolla (~kolla@firda.home.uninett.no) |
| 21:02.34 | kergoth | Cloudchaser_: thatd be handy |
| 21:02.41 | Cloudchaser_ | i print out so much crap |
| 21:02.48 | Cloudchaser_ | and sometimes it takes 2 pages to print one page |
| 21:02.54 | Cloudchaser_ | with just a header on the 2nd page |
| 21:02.57 | larios | kergoth: and Opie Pico gui... ??? |
| 21:03.06 | larios | kergoth: and Opie or Pico gui or ... ??? |
| 21:03.13 | kergoth | larios: picogui doesnt have any pim apps. i use Opie |
| 21:03.17 | Cloudchaser_ | i want to print it out into 1/4 size pages and make little books out of them |
| 21:03.56 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe |
| 21:03.58 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: I do that with cups and kdeprint |
| 21:04.06 | Cloudchaser_ | you can??? |
| 21:04.08 | kergoth | treke|home: yeah, you're right. which sucks, i bought the damn thing so i'd stop forgetting to do shit |
| 21:04.21 | kergoth | treke|home: i.e. *beep* *beep* Get off your ass and do laundry! |
| 21:04.40 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: 4 pages on 1 sheet? yes |
| 21:04.47 | Cloudchaser_ | yes but... |
| 21:04.49 | treke|home | kergoth: its justa crack up, you spend all this tim e on something you never really get to use :) |
| 21:04.52 | Cloudchaser_ | is it tiny print then? |
| 21:05.05 | kergoth | treke|home: hehe. never thought about it.. pretty sad really ;) |
| 21:05.27 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: it's readable :) |
| 21:05.35 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe i have bad eyes, |
| 21:05.42 | Cloudchaser_ | but i'll have to look into it |
| 21:05.52 | Cloudchaser_ | what i really want is..z-sized pages |
| 21:05.58 | Cloudchaser_ | on the z |
| 21:06.29 | Cloudchaser_ | would then be nice to beam to printer and have 4 z pages print on 1 8 1/2 x 11 page |
| 21:06.40 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: I printed the arm documentation (811 pages) on about 100 sheets |
| 21:06.48 | Cloudchaser_ | nice |
| 21:06.49 | kergoth | chouimat: me too |
| 21:06.50 | kergoth | :) |
| 21:06.59 | kergoth | never finished reading it.. should do that |
| 21:07.07 | chouimat | kergoth: readble |
| 21:07.09 | Cloudchaser_ | could you get...perforated paper and then make it into little bound books? |
| 21:07.29 | kergoth | Cloudchaser_: considering its 800 pages, thatd be a pretty thick little book :) |
| 21:07.31 | Cloudchaser_ | they have paper thats 1/4 size |
| 21:07.34 | kergoth | hehe |
| 21:07.42 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe well step 2 is to get a 2 sided printer ;) |
| 21:07.48 | Cloudchaser_ | then it would be 400 pages :) |
| 21:07.53 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: I put it in a 3 rings binder |
| 21:08.02 | Cloudchaser_ | i have a ton of them |
| 21:08.11 | Cloudchaser_ | they are pain to carry.. i want to toss into my purse |
| 21:08.13 | Cloudchaser_ | ;) |
| 21:08.25 | chouimat | printer 8 pages per sheet (I did the duplex myself) |
| 21:08.26 | treke|home | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:08.38 | Cloudchaser_ | treke i do too |
| 21:08.44 | Cloudchaser_ | but a few things i like in print ;) |
| 21:08.53 | Cloudchaser_ | mostly on z would be nice if i could organize it well |
| 21:09.05 | treke|home | hard copy is just an extra thing to carry :) |
| 21:09.14 | larios | I have got a WirelessLan CF, but its only soported on Sharp rom, Open Zaurus Stable.... how can i do to work under Open Zaurus Testing or unsatable ??? |
| 21:09.18 | Cloudchaser_ | well..i have a couple little notebooks i carry |
| 21:09.27 | treke|home | larios: fewer '?'s |
| 21:09.33 | Cloudchaser_ | one with notes on linux i've written as i run into problems |
| 21:09.37 | kergoth | larios: what card? |
| 21:09.42 | kergoth | heh |
| 21:09.50 | kergoth | s/?+/?/g |
| 21:09.52 | kergoth | :) |
| 21:10.14 | treke|home | kergoth: I want perl scripting in irssi so I can do stuff like that :) |
| 21:10.38 | Cloudchaser_ | plucker and opie reader are close but, as i said.. i still have a few things to figure out |
| 21:10.41 | treke|home | then I would never have to see r u going 2 fix this????? again |
| 21:10.42 | kergoth | treke|home: hehe, thatd be cool |
| 21:10.44 | larios | .... Pretec 802.11b CompactWLAN OC-WLBXX-! |
| 21:10.49 | larios | kergoth: |
| 21:10.58 | Cloudchaser_ | on my huge long list of thigns to do |
| 21:11.02 | kergoth | larios: the pretec shoudl be supported fine. email me the output of 'cardctl ident' on your zaurus |
| 21:11.06 | kergoth | larios: kergoth@handhelds.org |
| 21:11.12 | treke|home | Cloudchaser_: email tim wentford |
| 21:11.16 | *** join/#zaurus ljp (~ljp@tf0154.peakpeak.com) |
| 21:11.27 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: I'm trying to trim my huge todo list :) |
| 21:11.34 | larios | ok thanks |
| 21:12.01 | kergoth | larios: actually, I think someone already sent it to me.. hold on, may have a fix handy |
| 21:12.09 | Cloudchaser_ | treke i posted about it.. somene said it was in plucker settings i got a center tag somehow |
| 21:12.15 | Cloudchaser_ | actually jpluck |
| 21:12.35 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: jpluck work quit nice with converter ms reader files :) |
| 21:12.45 | Cloudchaser_ | does it? |
| 21:12.50 | Cloudchaser_ | i don't have any of those really |
| 21:13.15 | treke|home | chouimat: it does? |
| 21:13.18 | Cloudchaser_ | hey does anyone here have a palm that could answer a question? |
| 21:13.27 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: use openclit and jpluck to convert it |
| 21:13.47 | Cloudchaser_ | openclit? |
| 21:13.53 | treke|home | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:14.02 | kergoth | lol |
| 21:14.02 | chouimat | treke|home: google |
| 21:14.05 | treke|home | chouimat: I tried it |
| 21:14.15 | treke|home | chouimat: It didnt exactly return helpful results |
| 21:14.19 | Cloudchaser_ | lol |
| 21:14.21 | Cloudchaser_ | ROFL |
| 21:14.38 | Cloudchaser_ | lots of xxx sites treke? |
| 21:14.43 | treke|home | Cloudchaser_: yes |
| 21:14.43 | Cloudchaser_ | and offers of a fun time? |
| 21:14.50 | kergoth | lol |
| 21:15.33 | Cloudchaser_ | alrighty then |
| 21:15.40 | Cloudchaser_ | so chouimat.. have you got a link? |
| 21:15.45 | Cloudchaser_ | :) |
| 21:16.14 | larios | mmmm..... updating to unstable.... |
| 21:16.31 | chouimat | http://ulyx.homeunix.org:12000/openclit.tar.bz2 |
| 21:16.47 | zecke | chouimat: open clit? |
| 21:16.52 | treke|home | chouimat: I'm guessing its a windows app, right? |
| 21:16.52 | Cloudchaser_ | lol |
| 21:17.02 | Neo|Work | f~#~~@~@~~~~!!! |
| 21:17.05 | chouimat | treke|home: work on linux |
| 21:17.11 | zecke | Bullshit Bingo... |
| 21:17.11 | treke|home | chouimat: scweeet. |
| 21:17.18 | chouimat | zecke: huh? |
| 21:18.00 | zecke | chouimat: Buzzword Bingo |
| 21:18.15 | zecke | chouimat: I just read clit and had to respond |
| 21:18.27 | zecke | chouimat: then is PageUpped in irssi and saw other responded |
| 21:18.30 | zecke | as well |
| 21:18.32 | chouimat | zecke: it's ms reader .lit converter |
| 21:18.40 | *** join/#zaurus ljp_work (~ljp@04-100.026.popsite.net) |
| 21:18.51 | Cloudchaser_ | does it work on books you buy? |
| 21:19.03 | Cloudchaser_ | that are encoded or whatever they do to them? |
| 21:19.07 | mspencer | like that old Japanese pun -- chestnut and squirrel. |
| 21:19.08 | chouimat | Cloudchaser: the windows version does |
| 21:19.20 | Twiun | hiya cloudy |
| 21:19.21 | treke|home | hmmm |
| 21:19.26 | Cloudchaser_ | hiya Twiun |
| 21:19.37 | treke|home | Cloudchaser_: you got a copy of the windows version all compiled up? |
| 21:19.40 | treke|home | er chouimat |
| 21:19.42 | Cloudchaser_ | no |
| 21:19.48 | Cloudchaser_ | i use linux jpluck |
| 21:19.50 | treke|home | I dont want to dig up a copy of visual studio :) |
| 21:19.55 | mspencer | chestnut = kuri, squirrel = risu. 'to' particle is like 'and' or 'with'. So "chestnut and squirrel" is "kuri to risu" -- that's as close as the Japanese can get to saying "Clitoris" :) |
| 21:20.21 | mspencer | Bad, bad pun :) |
| 21:21.46 | Cloudchaser_ | ok anyway.. back to the palm question..when you beam something to a printer..it just prints without any issues? |
| 21:22.03 | mspencer | (pronounciation guide for japanese characters: ku is like "koo", ri rhymes with 'key', to is like 'toe' on your foot, ri rhymes with key, and su is like 'sue') |
| 21:23.43 | mspencer | Sadly, none of the office printers where I work (First National) support infrared communication... |
| 21:23.52 | Cloudchaser_ | mine does |
| 21:24.03 | Cloudchaser_ | but my son just told me he has software on his palm that makes it happen |
| 21:24.07 | chouimat | treke: http://members.lycos.co.uk/hostintheshell/ :) |
| 21:24.09 | Cloudchaser_ | i wasn't sure how it worked |
| 21:24.27 | treke|home | Cloudchaser_: cool |
| 21:24.33 | Cloudchaser_ | hehe no |
| 21:24.38 | Cloudchaser_ | i was hoping the printer new |
| 21:24.39 | Cloudchaser_ | knew |
| 21:24.50 | Cloudchaser_ | and i could then beam from z to printer and have someting print |
| 21:25.29 | Cloudchaser_ | thinking that maybe opie reader could print by beaming |
| 21:25.33 | treke|home | these closed formats piss me off bad :) |
| 21:25.46 | ljp_work | so open them |
| 21:25.48 | treke|home | I really want to buy their product, but they dont want to sell to me :) |
| 21:25.58 | Cloudchaser_ | they don't? |
| 21:26.46 | chouimat | treke|home: huh??? |
| 21:26.57 | *** join/#zaurus djk (~djk@ool-435182be.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 21:35.44 | Twiun | Cloudchaser_: :( :( http://theregister.co.uk/content/7/29453.html |
| 21:36.26 | *** join/#zaurus darienm (~darien@205.243.147.8) |
| 21:36.40 | Cloudchaser_ | :( |
| 21:38.05 | Cloudchaser_ | that stinks twiun |
| 21:38.15 | Cloudchaser_ | pretty much the same here |
| 21:42.05 | Cloudchaser_ | oh oh! |
| 21:42.10 | Cloudchaser_ | i have a question! another one! |
| 21:42.23 | Cloudchaser_ | ok here goes |
| 21:42.30 | Cloudchaser_ | say there's a linux app i want to run |
| 21:42.36 | Cloudchaser_ | its small enough to fit on z |
| 21:42.43 | Cloudchaser_ | what would i have to do to make it run on z? |
| 21:42.53 | kergoth | compile it for ARM |
| 21:42.59 | Cloudchaser_ | ok |
| 21:43.05 | kergoth | assuming its a comandline app that doesnt ened any porting |
| 21:43.18 | Cloudchaser_ | well its a command line app |
| 21:43.26 | Cloudchaser_ | its the visual boy advanced |
| 21:43.34 | Cloudchaser_ | :) |
| 21:43.51 | Cloudchaser_ | why? |
| 21:43.59 | Cloudchaser_ | too slow? |
| 21:44.01 | treke|home | because it probably isnt a console app |
| 21:44.02 | Cloudchaser_ | or it won't work? |
| 21:44.03 | treke|home | and too slow |
| 21:44.12 | Cloudchaser_ | oh |
| 21:44.24 | Cloudchaser_ | how do you know if its a console app? |
| 21:44.26 | kergoth | .. |
| 21:44.36 | Cloudchaser_ | i'm sorry |
| 21:44.38 | kergoth | is it in a xterm? |
| 21:44.45 | treke|home | kergoth: gameboy advance emulaotr |
| 21:44.47 | kergoth | do you point and click on it? |
| 21:44.49 | kergoth | heh |
| 21:44.50 | Cloudchaser_ | no |
| 21:44.55 | Cloudchaser_ | i type in the console ;) |
| 21:45.14 | treke|home | its an sdl app |
| 21:45.18 | Cloudchaser_ | yes |
| 21:45.23 | Cloudchaser_ | i have sdl on my zaurus |
| 21:48.15 | mark | Twiun: i am now thouroughly convinced not to go into the IT sector |
| 21:48.43 | Cloudchaser_ | treke|home: if its and sdl app then it won't compile for the z? |
| 21:48.47 | Twiun | mark: yeah, stay out. I've got enough competition :) |
| 21:48.48 | treke|home | Cloudchaser_: It will |
| 21:49.04 | mark | Twiun: heh, god knows what i'm gonna do :/ |
| 21:49.20 | treke|home | Cloudchaser_: I had been thinking it was an xlib app or something |
| 21:49.27 | Cloudchaser_ | ah :) |
| 21:49.54 | Twiun | mark: retail seems to be recruiting... they need lots of sales assistants :) |
| 21:50.05 | mark | Twiun: oh, great. :P |
| 21:50.23 | mark | Twiun: /me gives up education |
| 21:50.30 | *** join/#zaurus Infamous2 (~qwerty@155.33.158.167) |
| 21:50.32 | Twiun | mark: it's not worth it in the uk anyway |
| 21:50.41 | Twiun | mark: or go into politics |
| 21:51.13 | mark | Twiun: i'm thinking about civil service actually |
| 21:51.49 | Twiun | mark: my gf works for the cabinet office, handling mail |
| 21:51.56 | Twiun | mark: it's not that well paid |
| 21:52.02 | Twiun | mark: but better than nothing |
| 21:52.48 | mark | Twiun: depending on the mail taht could be kinda interesting :) |
| 21:52.52 | Cloudchaser_ | treke|home: i figured out why no one's done it yet...there's no sources ;( |
| 21:53.13 | larios | jop, im updating from testing to unstable.... but its stoped on oz-base .... |
| 21:53.18 | larios | mierda |
| 21:53.19 | kergoth | larios: let it go |
| 21:53.27 | kergoth | larios: could take 30 minutes, just let it go |
| 21:53.28 | gtr | I#ve a prob, flashed openzaursu 60Mem,0Storage and getting init spwaning too fast |
| 21:53.35 | mashi | kergoth : it is pain to compile OZ :( |
| 21:53.38 | larios | oki... |
| 21:53.40 | larios | :) |
| 21:53.41 | mark | larios: get cross with kergoth, scream, shout kick your legs and the problem should go away |
| 21:53.42 | kergoth | gtr: you didnt full reset, or your filenames were wrong, or your card FS is wrong |
| 21:53.44 | mashi | too much src from CVS |
| 21:53.51 | kergoth | mashi: huh? |
| 21:53.57 | kergoth | mashi: only ipkg is pulled from cvs HEAD |
| 21:54.01 | kergoth | mashi: and opie |
| 21:54.08 | larios | jejejeç |
| 21:54.09 | kergoth | mashi: the rest pull from specific dates where its known to build |
| 21:54.10 | mashi | yeah.. ipkg is good one.. |
| 21:54.14 | gtr | i did full reset, flashin 32MB 32MB went good |
| 21:55.43 | mashi | i just re-pull the src of ipkg. the patch don't even work |
| 21:55.58 | larios | kergoth: |
| 21:55.58 | kergoth | gtr: well 64-0 is known to work flawlessly. |
| 21:56.03 | larios | In OpenZaurus Testing.... cardctl ident.... |
| 21:56.03 | larios | Socket 0: |
| 21:56.03 | larios | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:56.03 | larios | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:56.03 | larios | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:56.04 | larios | Socket 1: |
| 21:56.06 | larios | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:56.06 | kergoth | gtr: i guarantee you its something in your environment. user error |
| 21:56.17 | kergoth | larios: i dont remember saying to paste it. |
| 21:56.21 | gtr | that i thought too till now |
| 21:56.21 | kergoth | larios: i asked you to email it for a reason |
| 21:56.25 | kergoth | gtr: 'till now'? |
| 21:56.27 | larios | oki |
| 21:56.30 | larios | sorry |
| 21:56.48 | gtr | i'm getting init spawning too fast, ... |
| 21:56.49 | kergoth | gtr: I'm telling you, it *is* user error or something wrong in your environment. 64-0 is no different in process from any other images |
| 21:56.54 | kergoth | gtr: yes, you fucked something up. guaranteed. |
| 21:56.54 | larios | its going to your mail |
| 21:56.55 | mark | kergoth: i'd hate to be you :) |
| 21:56.59 | gtr | is there a way to boot in singleuser? |
| 21:57.02 | kergoth | gtr: or your card, or something similar |
| 21:57.12 | kergoth | gtr: um, if you're getting that error, you wouldnt be able to boot into single user mode anyway |
| 21:57.19 | gtr | Flashing was well the last 3 times |
| 21:57.36 | kergoth | gtr: irrelevent. |
| 21:57.51 | kergoth | thats like users who say "hi, this server worked fine for 8 years and now it doesnt, but nobody touched anything" |
| 21:57.57 | gtr | kergoth: but should tell, the card is well |
| 21:57.59 | kergoth | and it turns out they fucked with it and broke it their fucking selves |
| 21:58.05 | kergoth | gtr: 'the card is well' is again meaningless. |
| 21:58.14 | gtr | kergothi know |
| 21:58.32 | kergoth | Well as i said. its the filenames, the card filesystem, or user error. |
| 21:58.35 | gtr | so no ideas? |
| 21:58.40 | kergoth | there _exist_ no other possibilities. |
| 21:58.41 | kergoth | period. |
| 21:58.48 | kergoth | figure out which it is. |
| 21:58.57 | gtr | k, than I#ll try windows with sharp 2.38 |
| 21:59.06 | kergoth | god you're an idiot |
| 21:59.09 | gtr | perhaps it boots |
| 21:59.12 | kergoth | flashing from windows is a completely different ballgame |
| 21:59.17 | kergoth | it wont help you isolate the problem |
| 21:59.17 | gtr | or get a card reader |
| 21:59.18 | chouimat | kergoth: calm down :) |
| 21:59.31 | kergoth | it will tell you nothing. if it works at all, which i doubt. |
| 21:59.40 | kergoth | considering the FAQs tell you how to switch back to sharp, maybe you should read them. |
| 21:59.48 | gtr | if it works, i can flash again ;-) |
| 22:00.00 | chouimat | gtr: get a card reader |
| 22:00.02 | kergoth | gtr: and I'm telling you it wont. you will have to obtain a card reader. |
| 22:00.10 | kergoth | gtr: the windows flash process depends on something running in the Z |
| 22:00.17 | gtr | i know them and i know the working images, which i have on HD |
| 22:00.30 | kergoth | .. |
| 22:00.36 | gtr | i think so ;-) |
| 22:00.56 | chouimat | kergoth: is me or I'm rotting my brain trying to understand that |
| 22:00.57 | gtr | so perhaps tomorrow is the day to obtain a reader |
| 22:01.07 | kergoth | chouimat: I'm completely failing as well |
| 22:01.30 | kergoth | chouimat: why do users always assume those trying to help them are wrong? if they're so smart, why are they asking us for help? |
| 22:01.32 | chouimat | kergoth: I thought I forgotten 19 years of english :) |
| 22:01.34 | kergoth | chouimat: heh |
| 22:01.47 | kergoth | hehe |
| 22:02.16 | chouimat | kergoth: wait ... 20 years is the correct number |
| 22:15.49 | *** join/#zaurus SuKoShi (trilluser@dyn-195-242-121-122.ppp.tiscali.fr) |
| 22:15.55 | SuKoShi | hi everyone |
| 22:15.59 | kergoth | hi SuKoShi |
| 22:16.20 | SuKoShi | no news from the HANDSKK author, so i email in japanese this time |
| 22:16.43 | kergoth | k |
| 22:16.58 | SuKoShi | i translate my last email in japanese cause he said he wasn't fluent in english |
| 22:20.20 | SuKoShi | kergoth: can you tell me how to install a good environment on my gentoo to be able to compile other software than kernel? |
| 22:20.39 | kergoth | crosscompile? |
| 22:20.42 | SuKoShi | yup |
| 22:21.06 | SuKoShi | i think i need Qtopia libraires |
| 22:21.17 | kergoth | you have the crosscompiler. what are you looking to compile? |
| 22:21.32 | SuKoShi | and other stuff.. i didn't find anything on OZ's FAQ |
| 22:21.51 | SuKoShi | let's say i want to crosscompile Handskk optimized for Xscale |
| 22:23.12 | SuKoShi | or froot ;) |
| 22:23.36 | kergoth | well, easy way is add it to OZ's buildroot |
| 22:23.45 | kergoth | then it'll automatically be put in unstable |
| 22:23.46 | kergoth | hehe |
| 22:23.50 | SuKoShi | lol |
| 22:24.12 | SuKoShi | i've found an interesting project |
| 22:24.21 | SuKoShi | someone ported frozen bubble to Yopy |
| 22:24.22 | SuKoShi | http://bigbugsite.free.fr/frozen/dev/dev.html |
| 22:25.37 | mspencer | I've got a touchscreen question, btw...maybe I should ask here instead of on the forum :) |
| 22:26.07 | mspencer | My Agenda VR3 has a 'prescribble' app I downloaded -- basically it's a line art draw program. You write with the pen, and it acts like paper. |
| 22:26.52 | mspencer | However, the quality of the touchscreen makes this kinda tedious. Sometimes when you put the pen down, write a stroke, then pick the pen up, the Agenda makes a little stray mark in some random direction, probably due to noise or bad readings from the touch panel. |
| 22:27.26 | mspencer | So if you just take the stylus and write flat out full speed, as if it were paper, you'll end up with a lot of stray marks, and because the sampling speed is low, your characters will be flattened out a bit. |
| 22:27.47 | mspencer | What's the Zaurus like in this regard? If I open some kind of paint app and just write as if it were paper, how will it behave? |
| 22:29.50 | Twiun | mspencer: it's not as bad, but there _is_ movement jitter |
| 22:30.17 | Twiun | mspencer: say about +-2px around the location of the stylus |
| 22:31.08 | mspencer | I wonder if that's a physical problem... |
| 22:31.29 | mspencer | maybe touch panels do OK when there's a significant and constant pressure -- it'd be bending flexible plastic down... |
| 22:31.34 | Twiun | don't know, but I believe that software filtering should be able to handle it |
| 22:31.46 | Twiun | it's just not builtin |
| 22:31.57 | mspencer | but perhaps the sensor is so accurate, that when you pick the pen up, perhaps something like ripples can occur, and the sensors pick up on that... |
| 22:32.20 | mspencer | So nobody's going to be getting subpixel touch panel data and doing clever antialiased lines or anything, huh? :) |
| 22:32.25 | Twiun | hehe |
| 22:32.37 | Twiun | actually, it'd be possible |
| 22:32.46 | mspencer | does the Z give you subpixel data? |
| 22:32.50 | Twiun | the sensor's resolution is greater than the visual res |
| 22:32.54 | mspencer | ooh, cool :) |
| 22:33.42 | mspencer | how about the C700? |
| 22:33.52 | Twiun | dunno about that |
| 22:33.59 | mspencer | (and do you think there's any more useful information to be had, or if the rely will be useful to anybody else, if I make a forum post about this?) |
| 22:36.00 | mspencer | but is a 'scribble' app like I described feasable on the Z? Could one reasonably expect to take notes during class with it? |
| 22:36.11 | Twiun | btw, here's the 5000d's sensor calibration data: |
| 22:36.16 | Twiun | # Calibration values for fbAWT |
| 22:36.16 | Twiun | minX = -51 |
| 22:36.16 | Twiun | maxX = 1027 |
| 22:36.16 | Twiun | minY = 25 |
| 22:36.16 | Twiun | maxY = 1049 |
| 22:36.24 | mspencer | I see :) |
| 22:36.54 | Twiun | so even if they used the same sensor on the c700, you'd still have subpixel sensor resolution |
| 22:37.14 | *** join/#zaurus lsmith (~vandal@p213.54.17.13.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 22:37.26 | mspencer | That would be interesting then -- two ideas, even. A scribble app, and a new calibration program that lets you test your calibration with antialiased lines :) |
| 22:37.44 | mspencer | touch the dots to get overall data, and then... |
| 22:38.16 | mspencer | scribble horizontal lines here on top, and use these fine-adjustment buttons to fine tune the lines. The lines would be rendered antialiased, to give you an idea of the fine line positioning... |
| 22:38.43 | mspencer | then scribble horizontal lines on the bottom, and see if the lines that emerge from your pen line up with where your mind thinks an ink stream would land... |
| 22:38.53 | mspencer | worthwhile idea? :) |
| 22:39.16 | mspencer | (of course, you'd do the same thing with vertical...) |
| 22:40.13 | Twiun | it sounds interesting, but I'm having problems visualising |
| 22:40.27 | Twiun | mostly because I'm concentrating on other things at the same time :) |
| 22:40.34 | mspencer | no problem :) |
| 22:41.09 | mspencer | It's just...besides handwriting versus typing, I study Japanese, and it'd be good to make myself notes about new kanji... |
| 22:41.25 | mspencer | (disclaimer: second semester student, I only know about 29 kanji, and am studying 15 more...) |
| 22:41.54 | Twiun | hehe |
| 22:41.57 | mspencer | (boring ones, for days of the week, and for time intervals like hour, minute, month, year, etc) |
| 22:52.57 | larios | ibot matchbox |
| 22:52.58 | | it has been said that matchbox is a X11 window manager for handheld devices. Info, screenshots & downloadable at http://handhelds.org/~mallum/matchbox . Ipkg is in the familiar unstable feed. Development versions and other goodies at http://handhelds.org/~mallum/downloadables/ |
| 22:55.29 | kergoth | SuKoShi: night |
| 22:56.15 | larios | i wont to download MATCHBOX but it is not in www.openzaurus.org/official/unstable/feed |
| 22:56.31 | kergoth | larios: i know it isnt. |
| 22:56.38 | kergoth | larios: its not handily packaged for OZ yet |
| 22:56.42 | kergoth | larios: its on the todo.. |
| 22:59.11 | larios | ok |
| 22:59.25 | larios | so can i download it from the page of matchbox ????? |
| 22:59.28 | treke | larios: so go download it from mallums web site |
| 22:59.30 | _Psycho | just curious, how do we add link into ibot ? |
| 22:59.33 | kergoth | larios: you got mail |
| 22:59.37 | treke | and stop using so many fucking question marks |
| 22:59.46 | *** join/#zaurus angry (~angry@ool-4356628d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 22:59.49 | kergoth | larios: it has the entries to put in /etc/pcmcia/config to fix the PRETEC card problem |
| 23:00.08 | larios | yes kergoth larios2k@iespana.es |
| 23:00.13 | kergoth | i know |
| 23:00.14 | kergoth | already sent it |
| 23:00.23 | larios | ah... oki thx :) |
| 23:00.28 | kergoth | np |
| 23:00.35 | kergoth | it'll be fixed in unstable soon |
| 23:00.38 | kergoth | I need to update the feed |
| 23:00.46 | larios | :) |
| 23:00.47 | larios | oki |
| 23:00.48 | larios | thx |
| 23:00.55 | larios | ah, i more thing |
| 23:00.58 | TheMasterMind1 | hmm, i added python-cdb to the buildroot, but i can't test it |
| 23:01.09 | TheMasterMind1 | buildroot is all fucked up and i really don't want to wipe and recompile everything |
| 23:01.16 | kergoth | heh |
| 23:01.19 | larios | im spanish and i will can help to translate OPIE to spanish |
| 23:01.23 | kergoth | whats wrong with your buildroot? |
| 23:01.29 | hardwire | TheMasterMind1: also sorta have endian issues with the data |
| 23:01.33 | hardwire | can't just copy over cdb's |
| 23:01.58 | hardwire | unless cdb is endian compatable |
| 23:02.17 | hardwire | I am also storing python generated structs on a little endian system |
| 23:02.20 | TheMasterMind1 | kergoth: *shrug* i can't figure out how to get python to build, whats up with the hostpython thing.. |
| 23:02.23 | hardwire | its just not gonna be happy once it hits the Z |
| 23:02.36 | TheMasterMind1 | when i do subdirs=packages/python-cdb it only goes to ipkg and then quits |
| 23:14.28 | larios | kergoth: my pretec continue without suport |
| 23:14.37 | kergoth | larios: then you didnt do it right, or didnt reboot after doing it |
| 23:14.45 | larios | yes |
| 23:14.50 | kergoth | larios: forgot to metnion that part, you must reboot |
| 23:14.52 | kergoth | or restart pcmcia |
| 23:15.04 | larios | ok |
| 23:15.08 | larios | im going to reboot |
| 23:15.53 | larios | some cuestion, you put... Pretect 3.3v.... and in cardctl ident said something about 2.5 |
| 23:16.10 | larios | ok, rebooted and... unsuported card |
| 23:18.01 | larios | kergoth din you read me? |
| 23:19.17 | larios | hi???? |
| 23:19.26 | larios | i have log ? |
| 23:19.39 | larios | ibot pretect |
| 23:19.40 | | larios: no idea |
| 23:19.56 | larios | jejeje, ibot always said something |
| 23:20.08 | chouimat | ~lart larios |
| 23:21.21 | larios | okioki |
| 23:23.46 | *** join/#zaurus larios (~larios@217.172.69.2) |
| 23:39.21 | *** join/#zaurus effy-kun (~none@216.251.50.73) |
