| 00:03:59 | scanline | is back (gone 00:33:53) |
| 00:15:12 | kergoth`work | is away: went home |
| 00:23:43 | charlus | jason: i don't know if you're awre or not but the zaurus zone forums are down at the moment ... |
| 00:30:05 | codemnky | yo whardier |
| 00:32:02 | whardier | hi |
| 00:38:25 | ljp | hiya |
| 00:39:01 | codemnky | the weed wore off from the other day, i'm all better now. |
| 00:39:17 | codemnky | did i say that out loud? |
| 00:39:37 | bewmIES | heh |
| 00:40:06 | codemnky | any Z newsflashes? |
| 00:40:35 | whardier | just z hotflashes |
| 00:40:52 | codemnky | heh |
| 00:41:19 | codemnky | think i got my iptables all worked out finially |
| 00:41:36 | ljp | ya- Z Hotflash! Zauruszone.com is down for the count!! again! |
| 00:42:34 | codemnky | openzaurus.org will be taking over shortly |
| 00:42:40 | codemnky | :) |
| 00:44:00 | codemnky | is that THE mandrake? |
| 00:44:14 | whardier | no its THAT mandrake |
| 00:44:18 | codemnky | ah |
| 00:44:22 | mandrake | heh |
| 00:44:27 | mandrake | you guys are funny =) |
| 00:44:37 | mandrake | so I added button support to my zaurus app today |
| 00:45:03 | codemnky | what do you mean exactly? i'm slow |
| 00:45:10 | mandrake | I still need to figure out how to keep it from suspending |
| 00:45:13 | whardier | good god |
| 00:45:20 | whardier | cheif technical expert |
| 00:45:25 | mandrake | what do I mean exactly? the buttons on the front of the zaurus, you can use them to control my app now |
| 00:45:26 | whardier | bah |
| 00:45:38 | mandrake | speeding up and slowing down playback, changing what sentance is being read, pause/play, etc |
| 00:45:55 | mandrake | http://mandrake.net/images/kutabi.jpg |
| 00:46:07 | codemnky | thx whardier, i was thinking several diff things |
| 00:49:27 | codemnky | want to crack at me somemore? :P |
| 00:50:05 | ljp | mandrake: QCopEnvelope("QPE/System", "setScreenSaverMode(int)" ) << QPEApplication::Disable; |
| 00:50:16 | mandrake | ljp: excellent. |
| 00:50:27 | ljp | and ::Enable |
| 00:50:28 | mandrake | ljp: that is not in the documentation |
| 00:50:40 | mandrake | thanks alot |
| 00:50:41 | ljp | nope.. but it IS in medialplayer :) |
| 00:50:49 | ljp | there's alot not in the docs |
| 00:51:13 | mandrake | no kidding =) |
| 00:51:44 | codemnky | mandrake: have you got the Z working with a cell phone, IrDa etc? |
| 00:51:55 | ljp | I made a commandline app to play with those settings |
| 00:51:56 | mandrake | nope. |
| 00:52:48 | codemnky | i'm wondering if it's worth me getting one that supports it or waiting for http://www.sharpmobile.com/ |
| 00:58:36 | codemnky | nice car mandrake |
| 01:10:54 | Fastolfe | ljp: ping |
| 01:11:10 | nasa | Hi, has anyone got tkcmahjongg to work with rom 1.11? |
| 01:14:09 | ljp | yo |
| 01:14:19 | ljp | fastolfe |
| 01:14:27 | Fastolfe | ljp: you got my response ? |
| 01:14:29 | ljp | my cat ownes me |
| 01:14:35 | Fastolfe | lol |
| 01:14:51 | ljp | yes.. I havent tried it yet... but I think my fault was not dividing by 2 |
| 01:15:04 | Fastolfe | someone said : when you call a dog, he comes to you. When you call a cat, he takes your message and comes back to you |
| 01:15:17 | Fastolfe | yeah I figured |
| 01:15:20 | ljp | heh- my cat usually comes running |
| 01:15:40 | ljp | maybe he's half dog |
| 01:15:55 | Fastolfe | I had 5 cats at one time and I very much felt like they tolerated me in their house because I happened to provide good food and a warm bed |
| 01:17:38 | ljp | when I was growning up.. at one time we had about 36 cats about the house.. including strays and 3 litters of 6 kittens |
| 01:18:44 | ljp | I probably need to divide by two on the write also... |
| 01:18:46 | Fastolfe | 36 ! |
| 01:18:56 | Fastolfe | 36 cats is bliss :) |
| 01:18:59 | Fastolfe | I love cats |
| 01:19:01 | ljp | most of them were outsode type cats |
| 01:19:08 | Fastolfe | yeah I hope :) |
| 01:19:28 | ljp | my step sister is a cat freak |
| 01:19:47 | ljp | and she is even allergic to them! |
| 01:20:04 | Fastolfe | ljp: signed 16 bit sound samples go from -32768 to 32767. If you add 2 such samples, you need to divide my 2. When you play back, the samples are already ranged properly, so you just copy them |
| 01:20:19 | Fastolfe | lol |
| 01:20:21 | Fastolfe | bummer |
| 01:21:29 | ljp | ya.. I guess the poor old char [] couldn't handle it! |
| 01:21:37 | Fastolfe | char! |
| 01:21:40 | Fastolfe | char == 8bits |
| 01:21:58 | Fastolfe | also, remember the endianess :) |
| 01:22:01 | ljp | ya.. I use unsigned short.. but the code is using char |
| 01:22:34 | Fastolfe | well then, use char for the buffer and cast them 2 by 2 into shorts |
| 01:22:48 | Fastolfe | do you open in signed or unsigned mode ? |
| 01:22:58 | Fastolfe | unsigned did not work for me with the Z |
| 01:23:37 | ljp | hmmm signed 16 and unsigned 8 |
| 01:23:48 | Fastolfe | unsigned 8 for what ? |
| 01:23:57 | ljp | somethign about the ipaq driver.. |
| 01:24:04 | Fastolfe | ooh |
| 01:24:14 | Fastolfe | yeah, that's the only 2 modes that work okay |
| 01:24:49 | ljp | hmmm.. I guess I'll ahve to pay attention to signed/unsigned also. |
| 01:24:56 | Fastolfe | heh |
| 01:25:01 | Fastolfe | err. yeah :) |
| 01:25:08 | Fastolfe | otherwise noise |
| 01:25:13 | ljp | I'm horrible with math |
| 01:25:31 | Fastolfe | well, that's easy tho |
| 01:25:40 | ljp | :) |
| 01:25:47 | Fastolfe | suppose you use an unsigned int : |
| 01:25:57 | Fastolfe | if you read a signed sample in it |
| 01:26:24 | Fastolfe | the middle (0 volts) will be 16384 |
| 01:26:32 | Fastolfe | the lowest voltage will be 0 |
| 01:26:41 | Fastolfe | the highest will be 32767 |
| 01:26:46 | Fastolfe | == 2^16 -1 |
| 01:27:00 | Fastolfe | if you read the sample in a signed int, C does that for you |
| 01:27:27 | Fastolfe | so you'll have lowest == -16384, middle ==0 and highest == 16383 |
| 01:27:38 | Fastolfe | == 2^(16-1)-1 |
| 01:27:57 | Fastolfe | feels a shotgun barrel against his temple |
| 01:28:03 | ljp | naaa |
| 01:28:10 | ljp | makes sense |
| 01:28:29 | Fastolfe | I hope :) |
| 01:28:46 | ljp | I've been working on medialplayer.. and I think it resamples wav files to 44100/stereo |
| 01:29:03 | Fastolfe | yes, I believe it does |
| 01:29:18 | Fastolfe | it doesn't trust the hw either, so it resamples to the most common format |
| 01:29:52 | ljp | ya.. |
| 01:30:24 | ljp | thing is.. woudln't it take less cpu to just open the dsp in the mode the file is? |
| 01:30:34 | Fastolfe | yes, apart that |
| 01:30:39 | Fastolfe | it's not reliable :) |
| 01:31:10 | Fastolfe | you can count on the following formats to be implemented correctly across most drivers : |
| 01:31:24 | Fastolfe | 8 bit unsigned, ulaw, 8KHz (/dev/audio) |
| 01:31:46 | Fastolfe | 16 bits signed, linear, 11025, 22050, 44100 Khz (/dev/dsp) |
| 01:32:00 | Fastolfe | outside of these, most drivers will works, some won't |
| 01:32:13 | Fastolfe | the Z belongs to the latter category |
| 01:32:35 | ljp | hmmm.. does ipaq have /dev/audio? |
| 01:32:40 | Fastolfe | yes |
| 01:33:07 | Fastolfe | if it's broken, then it's a real bummer |
| 01:33:24 | ljp | I forget about that one.. maybe I'll get coolpops to try opening that and see what happens |
| 01:33:35 | Fastolfe | yeah |
| 01:34:11 | Fastolfe | remember, it's ulaw, so if you output linear to it, you might hear a "scratchy" sound despite that it works |
| 01:35:35 | ljp | hey thanks alot! |
| 01:35:41 | Fastolfe | you betcha |
| 01:35:58 | Com[Plx | ljp: earlier, you mentiond loopback mounting the inetrd |
| 01:36:03 | Com[Plx | initrd |
| 01:36:18 | ljp | yes |
| 01:36:26 | Com[Plx | you gave me this command (?) |
| 01:36:28 | Com[Plx | cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.openzaurus.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/openzaurus co buildroot-oz; cd buildroot-oz; make sharprom; make sharproot; # |
| 01:36:36 | ljp | I have a script to do that |
| 01:36:44 | Com[Plx | - but cvs isnt a command that the z recognizes.. |
| 01:37:01 | Com[Plx | - so this must me something for my linux box? |
| 01:37:23 | ljp | oh.. I do it from my linux desktop, to mount a rom |
| 01:37:23 | Com[Plx | I just got back. had to install a new mobo wich is a pain in the neck when you got a great big water cooling system in the way. |
| 01:37:29 | Com[Plx | okay. |
| 01:38:17 | Com[Plx | now, that looks like its opie specific.. is it? |
| 01:38:50 | ljp | well. that cvs sure is.. err OZ |
| 01:39:08 | Com[Plx | okay.. - oz isnt rom 1.11 is it? its 1.02? |
| 01:39:10 | ljp | you can downlaod a rom, and mount thatfrom your dekstop to access the files |
| 01:39:16 | Com[Plx | AHh.. |
| 01:39:18 | Com[Plx | okay. |
| 01:39:19 | Kergoth` | Com[Plx: |
| 01:39:24 | Com[Plx | yeah? |
| 01:39:27 | Kergoth` | Com[Plx: that command downloads my buildsystem |
| 01:39:34 | Kergoth` | Com[Plx: make sharprom downloads the 1.11 romimage |
| 01:39:42 | Kergoth` | Com[Plx: make sharproot loopback mounts the initrd from 1.11 |
| 01:39:43 | whardier | Big K |
| 01:39:44 | whardier | heh |
| 01:40:01 | bewmIES | Special K |
| 01:40:07 | kergoth | heh |
| 01:40:38 | Com[Plx | okay. |
| 01:42:01 | Com[Plx | let me let this sink in for a sec. |
| 01:50:17 | scanline | is away: "short nap" or something |
| 01:51:55 | nasa | hey ljp -- I am back |
| 01:52:19 | nasa | Sorry, got informed that I have an unexpected test tomorrow |
| 01:52:36 | whardier | http://www.bogomip.com !!! |
| 01:52:53 | whardier | heh |
| 01:52:57 | kergoth | wtf was that |
| 01:52:58 | kergoth | heh |
| 01:53:14 | whardier | proof that I have been in the bosses office to long |
| 01:53:26 | whardier | he has a 64 meg video card |
| 01:53:28 | whardier | I am having fun |
| 01:53:39 | whardier | thats like twice the ram I have on my home machine |
| 01:53:44 | kergoth | hah |
| 01:53:57 | whardier | j/k |
| 01:54:06 | whardier | that is twice the ram I have in the cobalt qube |
| 01:54:13 | whardier | used to be 4x |
| 01:54:18 | whardier | then I upgraded it |
| 01:54:29 | kergoth | i was so indepth in the buildsystem development... that before i went off to play a game, I had to document it all in a text file on geezer so Id know wtf i'm doing when i go back to it. hehe. |
| 01:54:44 | whardier | HAHAHA |
| 01:54:55 | whardier | that is pretty intense |
| 01:54:58 | ljp | thats 16 times what I have in my 286! |
| 01:55:04 | whardier | hshs |
| 01:55:05 | whardier | err |
| 01:55:06 | whardier | haha |
| 01:55:15 | whardier | its also 10x faster than your 286 |
| 01:55:16 | nasa | Hey ljp, what were you trying to tell me before? |
| 01:55:30 | ljp | errr.. when? |
| 01:55:31 | whardier | 100 if you cound bus speed |
| 01:55:31 | whardier | heh |
| 01:55:32 | kergoth | whardier: read this shit. /home/kergoth/buildsystem/buildroot-oz/plan on geezer |
| 01:55:43 | nasa | about 20min ago |
| 01:55:53 | kergoth | I wish I still had an XT to play around with for nostalgia's sake |
| 01:55:55 | kergoth | heh |
| 01:56:14 | ljp | nasa: hmm about what? |
| 01:56:29 | nasa | maybe about tkcmaghomany |
| 01:56:30 | kendrick2 | re |
| 01:56:31 | whardier | kergoth use the woody |
| 01:56:35 | whardier | trust me |
| 01:56:42 | whardier | the woody is your friend |
| 01:56:46 | kergoth | heh |
| 01:56:48 | kergoth | man woody |
| 01:56:50 | ljp | heh- you said woody |
| 01:56:54 | kergoth | hah |
| 01:57:24 | whardier | hehe |
| 01:57:52 | nasa | I was asking if anyone had it working with rom 1.11 |
| 01:58:42 | kergoth | whardier: wtf are the commands in woody? |
| 01:58:46 | whardier | and I am asking if poop floats in space |
| 01:58:50 | kergoth | whardier: the man page was useless |
| 01:58:59 | Fastolfe | lol |
| 01:59:01 | BZFlag | kergoth: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2003923410 |
| 01:59:03 | whardier | kergoth: a friend of mine wrote it |
| 01:59:13 | whardier | there is a help.tree somewhere |
| 01:59:22 | whardier | woody /home/hardwire/plan.tree |
| 02:00:09 | kergoth | BZFlag: aha i should buy it |
| 02:00:14 | ljp | nasa: sorry- I was just responding to Fastolfe |
| 02:00:18 | kergoth | BZFlag: better than mine was, that actually has a hard drive.. shit.. 20 meg too |
| 02:00:23 | Fastolfe | ljp: uuh ? |
| 02:00:29 | nasa | k |
| 02:00:29 | kendrick2 | crap! simpsons! |
| 02:00:44 | Fastolfe | kendrick2 needs a tivo methinks |
| 02:01:02 | kergoth | dpkg -l woody |
| 02:01:03 | kergoth | heh |
| 02:01:28 | ljp | wow 640 k ram! |
| 02:02:56 | kergoth | yeah. pretty nice |
| 02:02:57 | kergoth | hehe |
| 02:02:59 | ljp | more than you'll ever need |
| 02:03:03 | kergoth | ohhh yeah |
| 02:03:14 | kergoth | i think mine came with 384k |
| 02:05:45 | ljp | heh- and people complain about the 5000d having 32 Mb! |
| 02:06:21 | ljp | I have a hard drive with 20Mb |
| 02:06:25 | Fastolfe | I only complain about only 32M with I try to run Java |
| 02:06:30 | Fastolfe | otherwise it's plenty |
| 02:06:50 | Fastolfe | My collector IBM has a 5M hdd |
| 02:06:52 | Fastolfe | eek |
| 02:08:30 | BZFlag | get a more portable model here ;-) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2004141978 |
| 02:09:40 | Neo|Work | cool. |
| 02:10:20 | Neo|Work | wrote a small hack to help making a Paypal shopping cart. it basically keeps the prices and product names and stuff out of the actual web page |
| 02:10:24 | Neo|Work | (which I find ugly) |
| 02:11:10 | ljp | ya.. try bringing THAT on a plane |
| 02:12:14 | Neo|Work | 30" keyboard cable? Damn |
| 02:15:57 | Fastolfe | BZFlag: I put your cradle on your desk, did you see it ? |
| 02:20:43 | whardier | hi |
| 02:21:02 | BZFlag | Fastolfe: yes, thanx. You hacked one then? |
| 02:21:25 | Fastolfe | yeah. Just cracked yours open and lifted the pinout :) |
| 02:22:52 | BZFlag | sweet. |
| 02:23:04 | BZFlag | now finish your z cradle hack. ;-) |
| 02:23:14 | Fastolfe | yeah |
| 02:23:21 | Fastolfe | is your cable on your desk still ? |
| 02:23:34 | Fastolfe | I might just take some time and lift the circuitry |
| 02:23:43 | BZFlag | http://zaurus.sourceforge.net/img/ see the ce170ts images. |
| 02:24:01 | BZFlag | warning... high res scan alert. ;-) |
| 02:24:31 | Fastolfe | err.. I'll probably need to hook up the scope :) |
| 02:24:37 | Fastolfe | images won't really do it |
| 02:24:52 | BZFlag | k. I'll leave the cable on my desk. |
| 02:24:57 | Fastolfe | k thanks |
| 02:27:44 | Neo|Work | whee. You can now purchase Eligo => http://eongames.com/order.html |
| 02:29:47 | whardier | if I actually made software I would make people pay for |
| 02:30:00 | whardier | that would be weird |
| 02:31:50 | Neo|Work | well, I hope people would want to buy Eligo. :-P |
| 02:33:57 | ljp | I'll trade ya! my app for your app.. straight across! :) |
| 02:34:11 | whardier | haha |
| 02:34:12 | whardier | its GPL |
| 02:34:17 | ljp | so |
| 02:34:22 | whardier | good point |
| 02:34:24 | ljp | I can still sell it |
| 02:34:29 | whardier | heh |
| 02:34:38 | whardier | no I mean.. he could just "request it" |
| 02:34:39 | whardier | heh |
| 02:34:52 | whardier | funny thing about GPL |
| 02:35:07 | ljp | think of all those soon to be zaurus users that use windows and dont know a cross compiler from a car axle! |
| 02:35:13 | whardier | if you catch people selling GPL software.. you should be able to just poke them into a simple request. |
| 02:35:13 | whardier | heh |
| 02:35:36 | Neo|Work | ljp: Indeed |
| 02:35:58 | Neo|Work | whardier: it's very much ok to sell GPL software, even if you don't own the copyright |
| 02:35:58 | whardier | ljp: I would love money |
| 02:36:03 | whardier | lots of ir |
| 02:36:06 | whardier | s/ir/it |
| 02:36:10 | Neo|Work | i.e selling for the distribution (or the service of compiling it for example) |
| 02:36:36 | whardier | Neo|Work but under GPL you should make the source available |
| 02:36:40 | whardier | so that it is Public |
| 02:36:41 | whardier | heh |
| 02:36:47 | whardier | so selling precompiled bins for a Z is fine |
| 02:36:50 | ljp | or making it very obfuscated and selling the help files! |
| 02:36:54 | whardier | but they should be able to download the source |
| 02:37:09 | whardier | using a non make/non gcc compiler |
| 02:37:10 | whardier | hahaha |
| 02:37:37 | whardier | man I cannot wait for mi papa johns to get here |
| 02:37:40 | whardier | I have not eaten all day |
| 02:38:02 | nasa | Is BigBoss on line? |
| 02:40:17 | Neo|Work | whardier: right, if someone asks |
| 02:40:28 | Neo|Work | or to be exact, you have to specify where the source is available |
| 02:40:35 | whardier | hehe |
| 02:40:39 | Neo|Work | but as ljp said, normal users would not be able to compile it |
| 02:40:42 | whardier | and try to keep the url in existance :) |
| 02:40:49 | Neo|Work | right |
| 02:43:38 | whardier | anybody else sing in the shower? |
| 02:43:53 | whardier | I do Ju Jitsu in the shower |
| 02:43:56 | whardier | and sing |
| 02:44:04 | ][N-Flux | you don't wanna know what I do in the shower |
| 02:44:08 | whardier | I can kick ass and love a womans ears |
| 02:44:17 | whardier | hehe |
| 02:47:20 | tgall_pda | heh |
| 02:48:27 | em1ssnuke | hi, has anyone used KVirc? |
| 02:51:43 | tgall_pda | nope ... xchat for this guy |
| 02:52:29 | em1ssnuke | .... way too many choices of irc clients and then options inside .... |
| 02:53:39 | tgall_pda | true true... |
| 02:54:07 | Neo|Work | I discovered that eDict works great on a larger display. Should make a desktop version too. :P |
| 02:59:17 | em1ssnuke | kergoth: ping |
| 03:00:26 | tgall_pda | kergoth` you around? |
| 03:00:30 | tgall_pda | heh... stereo! |
| 03:01:16 | em1ssnuke | ;) ... does your irc client have voice as well? ... |
| 03:01:30 | tgall_pda | only when I talk to it! |
| 03:02:36 | tgall_pda | ummm ok trying to do a make all on the open zaurus build system... |
| 03:03:14 | tgall_pda | hmmm looks like the glibc portion needs a --with-headers for the linux headers... |
| 03:03:23 | tgall_pda | it's not seeing my /usr/src/linux dir... |
| 03:03:32 | em1ssnuke | ... attempting now set up a build environment.... |
| 03:04:03 | Neo|Work | goes home |
| 03:04:31 | Neo|Work | is away: at home |
| 03:05:01 | tgall_pda | ummm anyone know how the ./configure for the build dir gets called? ... ie what do I have to edit to get the --with-headers added? |
| 03:06:12 | tgall_pda | gets a clue |
| 03:06:31 | em1ssnuke | <---no idea at this point |
| 03:07:58 | tgall_pda | the configs dir... the .mk in there by the looks of it... |
| 03:14:59 | tgall_pda | whardier: around? |
| 03:15:25 | whardier | newp |
| 03:15:35 | tgall_pda | heh... |
| 03:16:20 | whardier | whats up |
| 03:16:32 | tgall_pda | glibc.. is complaining that my kernel headers are too damn old ... but I"m using 2.4.6 headers... that's reasonable isn't it? |
| 03:16:51 | whardier | to compile OpenZaurus? |
| 03:16:55 | tgall_pda | yeah |
| 03:17:03 | whardier | did you grab OpenZaurus from CVS? |
| 03:17:07 | tgall_pda | yup |
| 03:17:10 | whardier | oh |
| 03:17:11 | whardier | heh |
| 03:17:16 | whardier | well then WHO KNOWS! |
| 03:17:35 | whardier | the build system is not done :) |
| 03:17:40 | tgall_pda | in the configs dir, it has --with-headers... and it's passing it in ... one would think that'd be kosher |
| 03:17:49 | tgall_pda | well yeah I know ... |
| 03:17:56 | whardier | I have not tried the last hours CVS |
| 03:17:58 | whardier | hold on |
| 03:18:01 | tgall_pda | that's why I downloaded it... time to beat on it! |
| 03:18:14 | tgall_pda | just thought maybe I was missing something obvious |
| 03:18:14 | Kergoth` | tgall_pda: make glibc; should result in the kernel being built first and then glibc including the headers from the newly built kernel. |
| 03:18:25 | tgall_pda | ah |
| 03:18:27 | tgall_pda | let me try |
| 03:18:29 | whardier | little k |
| 03:18:52 | kergoth | heh |
| 03:19:37 | em1ssnuke | hey kergoth, r u the one the pointed me to usbdnet? |
| 03:20:32 | kergoth | em1ssnuke: hell i dont remember. why do you ask? |
| 03:20:33 | kergoth | heh |
| 03:20:37 | tgall_pda | hmmm still bitching about old kernel headers... |
| 03:20:58 | kergoth | tgall_pda: sanitycheck.. ls -l build/linux/include/linux/version.h; |
| 03:21:12 | Fastolfe | kergoth: someone was asking me today about troubles he had running Opera with qpe/qte libs that were not compiled by Sharp : did you run into that problem too ? |
| 03:21:12 | tgall_pda | bang! |
| 03:21:39 | kergoth | Fastolfe: not if the qpe libs have been built from cvs recently.. since warwick fixed the binary compatibility problems, iirc |
| 03:21:54 | em1ssnuke | kergoth: i forgot the url to get it ... did save it ... can you send it again. |
| 03:21:59 | Fastolfe | oic |
| 03:22:07 | Fastolfe | kergoth: which cvs is that ? OZ ? |
| 03:22:17 | Fastolfe | or opie ? |
| 03:22:32 | kergoth | Fastolfe: either opie cvs or recent qtopia from cvs |
| 03:22:39 | kergoth | Fastolfe: since their binary compatible |
| 03:22:43 | Fastolfe | okay |
| 03:22:46 | Fastolfe | thanks |
| 03:22:52 | kergoth | Fastolfe: OZ cvs is just a builtsystem and nothing else :-) |
| 03:22:52 | kergoth | np |
| 03:23:16 | Fastolfe | yeah, I was wondering if you made changes to qtopia specific to OZ |
| 03:23:41 | whardier | sorta |
| 03:23:42 | kergoth | em1ssnuke: http://www.zauruszone.com/ib3/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3c7468010af3ffff;act=ST;f=16;t=20;hl=usb+driver |
| 03:24:04 | kergoth | Fastolfe: well currently there's nothing outside of opie that has been done for OZ.. other than some changes in my local tree that will make it into oz 3 |
| 03:24:20 | Fastolfe | kergoth: k. I'll pass the info |
| 03:24:35 | kergoth | k |
| 03:25:17 | em1ssnuke | k, thanks |
| 03:25:24 | whardier | dewd |
| 03:25:32 | whardier | pizza rules |
| 03:27:30 | kergoth | yep |
| 03:27:39 | em1ssnuke | za! |
| 03:28:56 | whardier | perfect skin doesn't just happen |
| 03:48:45 | tux_mike | gah! |
| 03:48:49 | tux_mike | no time to program |
| 03:48:59 | tux_mike | and i hate bush! >< |
| 03:49:11 | whardier | >< |
| 03:49:15 | tux_mike | >< |
| 03:49:28 | whardier | i wanna see bush |
| 03:49:42 | tux_mike | why, to clock him one? |
| 03:50:01 | whardier | are you upset with Gavin? |
| 03:50:26 | tux_mike | no, G. W. Bush. the idiot in the oval offic. |
| 03:51:12 | whardier | oh |
| 03:51:13 | whardier | hahahaha |
| 03:51:18 | whardier | wrong bush |
| 03:51:30 | whardier | why are you upset with G.W! |
| 03:51:31 | tux_mike | i don't really like the other bush, but i don;t hate them |
| 03:51:45 | warmi | well, apparently he was smart enough to get into oval office as opposed to sitting and bitching on some sad irc server |
| 03:51:57 | em1ssnuke | :) |
| 03:52:33 | bewmIES | http://www.dir-t.org/images/flvote2004.jpg |
| 03:52:36 | bewmIES | I dislike Bush too |
| 03:53:05 | warmi | good one bewmIES |
| 03:53:18 | em1ssnuke | nice one! |
| 03:53:49 | tux_mike | but the ball isn't fitting in the square hole!!! |
| 03:54:41 | warmi | well, there is always gonna be couple of democrats who just won't be able to solve that problem .. there is nothing that can be done about that |
| 03:54:57 | kergoth | whardier: commited TODO into OZ CVS (woody plan). heh. |
| 03:55:08 | kergoth`gaming | is away: gone |
| 03:55:39 | whardier | kergoth rule! |
| 03:55:46 | bewmIES | kergoth/rules ? |
| 03:57:02 | ][N-Flux | damn Transgaming kinda suxxors |
| 03:57:06 | warmi | tux_mike .. you are from Chicago , right ? |
| 03:57:36 | Relayer | flux: Because they're giving up? |
| 03:57:56 | tgall_pda | ][N-Flux: but their pres wears a cool hat |
| 03:58:10 | ][N-Flux | Relayer: I didn't know they were giving up |
| 03:58:36 | ][N-Flux | I installed the winex package and nothing works, I got starcraft working and that's about it |
| 03:59:14 | MEGASTeP | is away: I'm away, dammit |
| 03:59:22 | Relayer | I thoiught they were having financial problems and were thinking of closing shop. |
| 03:59:38 | tgall_pda | o yeah? that's a bummer... cool buncha folks |
| 04:00:49 | ][N-Flux | well, it takes things farther than wine, maybe there will be a mesh of the codes, and something good will come from it |
| 04:01:58 | tgall_pda | hope so ... not much for a linux game market anymore |
| 04:02:30 | ][N-Flux | just waiting for Neverwinter Nights |
| 04:03:22 | tgall_pda | that and warcraft III |
| 04:03:37 | ][N-Flux | no warcraft for me |
| 04:03:42 | ][N-Flux | Blizzard is evil |
| 04:03:50 | ][N-Flux | I will not support them |
| 04:04:17 | ][N-Flux | I wonder how the serious sam port is coming along |
| 04:04:49 | tgall_pda | woo hoo ... glibc is building! |
| 04:05:29 | codemnky | hello |
| 04:05:55 | ][N-Flux | hey codemnky |
| 04:06:01 | codemnky | hey what's up |
| 04:06:20 | ][N-Flux | getting agitiated with winex :) |
| 04:06:28 | codemnky | any new Z tricks? |
| 04:07:19 | em1ssnuke | my does donuts .... |
| 04:07:20 | codemnky | what kinda problems is it given you? |
| 04:07:27 | em1ssnuke | my->mine |
| 04:07:42 | codemnky | take windows out of the picture and it should work fine |
| 04:07:47 | ][N-Flux | codemnky: nothing works right, only thing I got running was starcraft |
| 04:08:03 | ][N-Flux | vmware workstation 3 owns however |
| 04:08:12 | codemnky | well, at least you got the important things to work! |
| 04:09:04 | codemnky | i like wine and vnc, but if i must work on a windows machine i prefer using it direct, i have enough lag |
| 04:09:26 | ][N-Flux | vmware works in a pincrh |
| 04:09:29 | ][N-Flux | pinch too |
| 04:10:03 | codemnky | yrp that one too |
| 04:10:06 | codemnky | yep |
| 04:10:39 | codemnky | unless you mean the winex site, wine, food and an intelligent slice of vice |
| 04:10:53 | codemnky | http://www.winexwired.com/ |
| 04:10:55 | codemnky | :) |
| 04:11:56 | ][N-Flux | nice |
| 04:12:12 | ][N-Flux | ah the simpsons season one set :) |
| 04:13:37 | codemnky | what channel? |
| 04:14:08 | ][N-Flux | no I own the Dvd set :) |
| 04:14:14 | codemnky | damn |
| 04:14:21 | ][N-Flux | watching it now |
| 04:14:28 | codemnky | burn me a copy :) |
| 04:14:59 | ][N-Flux | sure sure |
| 04:15:18 | codemnky | morph might have it |
| 04:15:18 | ][N-Flux | there is a big simpsons mpeg archive on the net somewhere |
| 04:15:47 | codemnky | so what are you using the Z for? |
| 04:15:55 | codemnky | just tinkering? |
| 04:16:01 | codemnky | i'm just a tinker |
| 04:16:14 | ][N-Flux | tinkering, showing to potential clients |
| 04:16:26 | ][N-Flux | I have a bunch of ppl all geared up for it |
| 04:16:39 | codemnky | ah, what are they going to use it for? |
| 04:16:45 | ][N-Flux | we need a c64 emu\ |
| 04:17:06 | ][N-Flux | one of my clients would like to keep a stock ticker on it |
| 04:17:14 | tgall_pda | heh |
| 04:17:48 | ][N-Flux | they are gonna make nice network analyzers |
| 04:17:59 | codemnky | ah, cool. |
| 04:18:14 | ][N-Flux | all kinds of uses for this thing |
| 04:18:19 | Relayer | yes. C64 emulator :) |
| 04:18:20 | codemnky | i hope to get mine moblie so i can "pretend" i'm at work when i'm really on the beach |
| 04:19:29 | ][N-Flux | Relayer: right on, emu's are high priority |
| 04:19:39 | codemnky | peek poke |
| 04:19:51 | ][N-Flux | nes, c64, gba, all needed :) |
| 04:20:00 | codemnky | ah the C64 days |
| 04:20:16 | tgall_pda | give me M.U.L.E |
| 04:20:18 | ][N-Flux | 64 was the best |
| 04:20:23 | codemnky | i prefered the timex synclaire 1000 |
| 04:20:34 | tgall_pda | I started life on a Vic |
| 04:20:40 | ][N-Flux | my first computer was atimex sinclair 1000 :) |
| 04:20:41 | codemnky | just love saving things to casette |
| 04:20:48 | Relayer | There was a great C64 emu for the iPaq. Worked well |
| 04:20:51 | codemnky | heh, cool |
| 04:20:54 | tgall_pda | until the casette tape stretched |
| 04:21:03 | ][N-Flux | Relayer: Vice was ported for the ipaq right |
| 04:21:10 | Relayer | I started with a VIC too. Still got it |
| 04:21:13 | tgall_pda | me too |
| 04:21:22 | tgall_pda | good ol 6502 |
| 04:21:28 | codemnky | i couldn't afford a hard drive for my c64 for sometime so i had to leave it on with many GOTO stmts to parts of my code |
| 04:21:37 | tgall_pda | heh |
| 04:21:52 | Relayer | I don't remember if it was vice that was on the iPaq |
| 04:21:55 | ][N-Flux | I had 6 1541's daisy chained |
| 04:22:05 | tgall_pda | I run a BBS off my c64 for a couple of years... good old Commodore D9090 hardware over an IEEE 488... now that was livin! |
| 04:22:18 | tgall_pda | run==ran |
| 04:22:24 | codemnky | wow |
| 04:22:32 | codemnky | that is cool |
| 04:22:37 | codemnky | didn't know that was possible |
| 04:22:40 | tgall_pda | flux: which BBS software you use? |
| 04:23:02 | ][N-Flux | I had cnet |
| 04:23:04 | tgall_pda | yup 7.49 meg hard drive.. |
| 04:23:17 | tgall_pda | yup cnet here too ... |
| 04:23:26 | codemnky | i got mine to detect what time my door was open in my room and print it out by taking apart a joy stick and rigging it to the door. |
| 04:23:32 | tgall_pda | loved listing the basic parts and hacking it up |
| 04:24:00 | ][N-Flux | I knew a kid back in the day that had a 20MEG hd for his 64, blew my mind |
| 04:24:09 | tgall_pda | yikes! |
| 04:24:20 | tgall_pda | I never even filled my d9090 |
| 04:24:36 | ][N-Flux | yeah |
| 04:24:37 | codemnky | what about the pads for atari that could do basic stuff |
| 04:24:42 | ][N-Flux | hehe 1541 sing |
| 04:24:53 | Relayer | I remember seeing an ad for a 64MB drive for the C64. It was all RAM based. |
| 04:25:01 | tgall_pda | haw! |
| 04:25:18 | codemnky | oh thr days |
| 04:25:20 | codemnky | the |
| 04:25:21 | Relayer | Cost $2000 in '89 |
| 04:25:21 | em1ssnuke | ... who is on stapede.org? |
| 04:25:24 | ][N-Flux | then came the amiga |
| 04:25:28 | codemnky | now i just have a bunch of bills! |
| 04:25:33 | tgall_pda | still have my Amiga yet |
| 04:25:42 | ][N-Flux | loved hsi amiga's |
| 04:25:44 | em1ssnuke | ... never mind |
| 04:25:51 | Relayer | Got my Amiga too |
| 04:25:57 | codemnky | never has one |
| 04:25:59 | ][N-Flux | 500, 600, 1000, 1200, 2000, 2500, 3000 :) |
| 04:26:01 | codemnky | missed out on that |
| 04:26:04 | ][N-Flux | owned them all |
| 04:26:10 | codemnky | i'm sure i asked for one but santa never came |
| 04:26:14 | ][N-Flux | still have the 500, 1000 and 1200 |
| 04:26:16 | tgall_pda | wow .. only had a 1000 and 3000 |
| 04:26:29 | codemnky | and the magical TSR-80 |
| 04:26:30 | ][N-Flux | 3000 kicked ass |
| 04:26:45 | Relayer | Now I just collect all the old computers |
| 04:27:00 | em1ssnuke | <--- had kaypro 4-84 and 2-84 ..... |
| 04:27:04 | tgall_pda | brb ... gotta get hte poewr supply for my portable ... almost out of gas |
| 04:27:47 | codemnky | now here we are, linux to the rescue |
| 04:27:53 | Relayer | C= VIC 20, 64, 128, A500, A2000 |
| 04:28:01 | Com[Plx | trs80. I have one of those in my closet |
| 04:28:08 | codemnky | my brother had a vic20 |
| 04:28:09 | NeoTron | is back (gone 18:55:07) |
| 04:28:10 | Com[Plx | it works, but I have no boot disk |
| 04:28:18 | codemnky | he was a sprite making bandit |
| 04:28:19 | Com[Plx | its a suitcase computer. |
| 04:28:22 | Relayer | Atari 400, 800, couple XL series |
| 04:28:23 | NeoTron | is home. |
| 04:28:37 | ][N-Flux | sprites were fun to bang out |
| 04:28:39 | Relayer | TI99 and 3 expansion boxes |
| 04:28:41 | ][N-Flux | hey NeoTron |
| 04:28:55 | Relayer | TRS-80 Model IV |
| 04:29:18 | Relayer | Sinclair 1000 |
| 04:29:23 | codemnky | yep |
| 04:29:33 | codemnky | good old timex |
| 04:29:53 | codemnky | i think i had some texas instraments thingy too |
| 04:30:02 | Relayer | TI-74 BasiCalc and CC40 |
| 04:30:29 | Relayer | ...and then the consoles.... |
| 04:30:40 | codemnky | hey want to see something funny |
| 04:30:56 | NeoTron | my computer history: ZX Spectrum 16 K upgraded to 48K, Amiga 1000, Pnetium 166 and then newer PC's from there on |
| 04:30:57 | Relayer | Atari 2600, 5200, 7600 |
| 04:31:02 | codemnky | i'll have to scan it in, 1 sec |
| 04:31:04 | em1ssnuke | Commedore Pet.... |
| 04:31:10 | em1ssnuke | sp |
| 04:31:17 | Relayer | I want a PET!!! |
| 04:31:26 | Relayer | Colecovision |
| 04:31:27 | Com[Plx | remember typing all in caps? :> |
| 04:31:35 | tgall_pda | hmmm looks open zaurus does a complete glibc build... |
| 04:31:38 | Com[Plx | every thing was typed in all caps. |
| 04:31:46 | Relayer | Odyssey II |
| 04:31:47 | em1ssnuke | yep |
| 04:31:55 | tgall_pda | I should run our minilibc tool over this..... |
| 04:32:16 | Com[Plx | hey, has bigboss been around? |
| 04:32:22 | tgall_pda | (let's you build a skinny glibc) |
| 04:32:24 | Com[Plx | or onwe of the other guys from the kompany? |
| 04:33:05 | Relayer | ....and a bunch of carts and disks for everything. My garage is packed full of the classic stuff |
| 04:33:54 | em1ssnuke | On the Z how can the editor get to the .conf files? |
| 04:34:55 | tgall_pda | from the command line pass it the direct path to the file you want to edit |
| 04:35:49 | em1ssnuke | what is the name of the qt editor app to execute from the command line |
| 04:36:36 | codemnky | ok ready to laf |
| 04:36:49 | em1ssnuke | ? |
| 04:36:53 | codemnky | don't leave just yet C64 fans |
| 04:37:01 | tgall_pda | editor as I recall |
| 04:37:02 | Com[Plx | # textedit |
| 04:37:08 | tgall_pda | bang there ya go |
| 04:37:09 | Com[Plx | I think elvis is on there too. |
| 04:37:11 | ][N-Flux | I'm still here |
| 04:37:12 | Com[Plx | but textedit |
| 04:37:14 | Com[Plx | and vi |
| 04:37:20 | tgall_pda | well vi IF you install it |
| 04:37:22 | Com[Plx | - I think elvis IS vi? |
| 04:37:33 | Com[Plx | vi is on mine., I didnt install it extra |
| 04:37:39 | ][N-Flux | http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,50523,00.html <-----geez |
| 04:37:40 | NeoTron | hmm. the package management system on the Z is somewhat like apt-get, isn't it? |
| 04:37:43 | tgall_pda | wasn't on mine |
| 04:37:45 | NeoTron | or has such functionality? |
| 04:37:46 | em1ssnuke | yes, vi is buit the keyboard sucks for vi .... prefer joe for simple stuff |
| 04:38:19 | Com[Plx | vi is cake on the Z, just press the cancel/off button whenever you want to stop editing and perform a copmmand |
| 04:38:42 | Com[Plx | - wihtout knowing that, vi is a total bitch |
| 04:38:55 | tgall_pda | /opt/Embedix/tools/arm-linux/bin/ld: cannot open crt1.o: wtf! |
| 04:38:56 | Com[Plx | cancel = escape |
| 04:39:28 | kergoth`gaming | ... |
| 04:39:29 | em1ssnuke | <--- istill remember all the wordstar commands ... easier then looking up vi .... |
| 04:40:39 | kergoth | tgall_pda: it currently lets the ld from the toolchain link in its default startfiles (crt1.o, etc) rather than forcing it to link in the newly built startfiles in root/lib. crt1.o is in your toolchain right? |
| 04:40:48 | Relayer | This C64 fan hasn't left yet. He was just remembering his prized posession, the SX-64 |
| 04:40:51 | codemnky | hey kergoth |
| 04:40:59 | kergoth | codemnky: hey... hows it goin? |
| 04:41:03 | codemnky | going fine |
| 04:41:05 | codemnky | &u |
| 04:41:25 | tgall_pda | kergoth: just looking ... looks like /usr/lib/crt1.o is there... but I'm guessing the toolchain is wanting an arm version ... right? |
| 04:41:42 | kergoth | tgall_pda: yes. find /opt/Embedix/ -name crt1.o -print; |
| 04:41:47 | kergoth | codemnky: not bad at all |
| 04:42:18 | codemnky | i'm ready to spruce up openzaurus.org |
| 04:42:22 | codemnky | need ides |
| 04:42:23 | tgall_pda | kergoth: well what do ya know ... it's not there |
| 04:42:23 | codemnky | ideas |
| 04:42:34 | codemnky | want it to be a bit different than the norm |
| 04:42:45 | kergoth | tgall_pda: install the glibc from the toolchain for now, until I get shit linking in the newly built startfiles |
| 04:42:55 | kergoth | codemnky: hmmm |
| 04:43:10 | codemnky | something clever |
| 04:43:11 | Com[Plx | ljp: are you there? |
| 04:43:25 | codemnky | no need to answer now, just think about it |
| 04:43:32 | tgall_pda | kergoth: say ... one potentially interesting item... we have a minilibc tool that might be handy |
| 04:43:34 | kergoth | codemnky: will do |
| 04:43:42 | kergoth | tgall_pda: whats it do? got a url? |
| 04:44:06 | tgall_pda | it scans a set of applications and comes up with the necessary magic to built a glibc that only has the function built into it that those applications need |
| 04:44:31 | tgall_pda | course it would suck if you added an app later that needed something that wasn't built it ... |
| 04:44:44 | tgall_pda | so it's really only realistic in a somewhat static system |
| 04:45:20 | tgall_pda | http://oss.software.ibm.com/developer/opensource/linux/projects/minilibc/ |
| 04:45:37 | tgall_pda | one of the guys from my team built that |
| 04:45:42 | kergoth | hmm that'd be useful .. should add it to the buildsystem.. though not use it by default in openzaurus |
| 04:45:45 | kergoth | goes to the url |
| 04:46:01 | tgall_pda | well happy to do the work to add it into the system if ya like |
| 04:46:22 | tgall_pda | definatley have to be an option only ... |
| 04:46:34 | whardier | hi |
| 04:46:39 | tgall_pda | hey ya whardier |
| 04:47:05 | codemnky | here's a good laf |
| 04:47:12 | codemnky | since we were talking about c64 |
| 04:47:14 | codemnky | http://www.oddabon.com/c64.jpg |
| 04:47:20 | codemnky | back in 1984 |
| 04:47:41 | whardier | hahaha |
| 04:47:49 | whardier | you were always skinnie |
| 04:48:05 | em1ssnuke | <---was on West Pac in '84 |
| 04:48:11 | codemnky | yep |
| 04:49:04 | Relayer | I used to be that skinney... |
| 04:49:15 | whardier | heh |
| 04:49:24 | kergoth | heh |
| 04:49:26 | em1ssnuke | 150# @ 6'3" before the Nav |
| 04:50:06 | codemnky | 18 years ago |
| 04:50:11 | codemnky | damn i'm getting old |
| 04:50:21 | kergoth | tgall_pda: id appreciate your assistance in adding it to the system.. but dont bother trying to until I finish the method scripts. will make it less of a pain. |
| 04:50:26 | kergoth | codemnky: hah. how old are you? |
| 04:50:31 | whardier | is only 22 |
| 04:50:42 | Fastolfe | young lad |
| 04:50:46 | tgall_pda | kergoth: k ... when do you think you might have those nailed? |
| 04:50:48 | whardier | si si |
| 04:50:49 | kergoth | 21 here |
| 04:50:49 | em1ssnuke | ~x2 |
| 04:50:50 | Relayer | I grew 6" and gained 40 pounds duriing my Army tenure |
| 04:51:04 | kergoth | tgall_pda: tonight or tomorrow most likely |
| 04:51:11 | whardier | I am 5'4" |
| 04:51:13 | whardier | err |
| 04:51:13 | whardier | hah |
| 04:51:14 | em1ssnuke | gained 35# |
| 04:51:16 | whardier | I am 6'4" |
| 04:51:19 | tgall_pda | kergoth: sounds like a plan ... |
| 04:51:23 | codemnky | 32 |
| 04:51:24 | Relayer | Then gained 40 more pounds since getting out :) |
| 04:51:28 | whardier | 210 lbps of sexy ass muscle |
| 04:51:34 | whardier | all gained by power programming |
| 04:51:39 | kergoth | aha |
| 04:51:42 | tgall_pda | whardier: that's alot of ass muscle |
| 04:51:43 | em1ssnuke | .... gained about the same .... |
| 04:51:47 | Fastolfe | lolol |
| 04:51:50 | codemnky | heh |
| 04:52:13 | em1ssnuke | now 225 |
| 04:52:33 | whardier | heh.. |
| 04:52:36 | codemnky | i can't get past 165, it's a very carfeful bend of beer and coke |
| 04:52:54 | kergoth | hah |
| 04:52:54 | codemnky | a cola |
| 04:52:57 | em1ssnuke | what 'till after mid 30's |
| 04:53:09 | tgall_pda | uh-o ... |
| 04:53:13 | codemnky | heh |
| 04:53:15 | tgall_pda | is almost mid 30 |
| 04:53:33 | Relayer | Yes, the weight will catch up to you in your 30s |
| 04:53:49 | kergoth | how foreboding |
| 04:53:54 | kergoth | nice to have things to look forward to you know |
| 04:53:57 | kergoth | heh |
| 04:53:57 | whardier | :( |
| 04:54:04 | whardier | I don't wanna die! |
| 04:54:04 | kergoth | 5'8", 180 for now |
| 04:54:04 | em1ssnuke | catch up ... more like grab you and shake the hell out of you .... :) |
| 04:54:04 | Relayer | hehehe |
| 04:54:24 | kergoth | em1ssnuke: i'm content in my ignorance regarding my future. shut up, damnit |
| 04:54:25 | kergoth | :-P |
| 04:54:29 | tgall_pda | em1ssnuke: you missed the "and leave you on the side of the road for dead" part |
| 04:54:36 | whardier | are you a chunky little chimpunk kergoth? |
| 04:54:38 | em1ssnuke | :) |
| 04:54:41 | kergoth | naw |
| 04:54:41 | codemnky | yea, it seems eveyone is grouping around my mid section, looks like they are planning on building a pot belly |
| 04:54:48 | Relayer | Nice chat... gotta go to bed now... |
| 04:54:52 | tgall_pda | later Relayer |
| 04:54:53 | em1ssnuke | by |
| 04:54:55 | codemnky | l8r |
| 04:55:00 | kergoth | still workin out 2 hrs a day |
| 04:55:02 | kergoth | heh |
| 04:55:07 | whardier | haha |
| 04:55:11 | whardier | I wish I could afford that |
| 04:55:20 | whardier | like I said before |
| 04:55:21 | tgall_pda | I work out 8 hrs a day .... |
| 04:55:22 | em1ssnuke | me too ... run 2.25 and bike 5 |
| 04:55:23 | whardier | Ju Jitsu in the shower |
| 04:55:24 | whardier | heh |
| 04:55:27 | tgall_pda | all that typing on my keyboard |
| 04:55:32 | codemnky | so can we talk about openzaurs.org for 5 mins? |
| 04:55:34 | whardier | I have Asthmar |
| 04:55:35 | kergoth | hah |
| 04:55:41 | tgall_pda | you into Ju Jitsu whardier? |
| 04:55:47 | whardier | yup |
| 04:55:48 | codemnky | you talk, i'll listen |
| 04:55:50 | tgall_pda | Judo for me |
| 04:55:56 | kergoth | i weight lift daily, rock climb once a week |
| 04:56:01 | kergoth | jeet kune do here |
| 04:56:07 | tgall_pda | cool |
| 04:56:07 | kergoth | codemnky: well, umm let me think |
| 04:56:10 | whardier | heh |
| 04:56:12 | codemnky | hmm, does listing a beer and climbing out of bed count? |
| 04:56:14 | Fastolfe | spooky, I told my boss to d/l tightvnc at http://www.tightvnc.com/ and he just answered me that he refused to fall for my pr0n site joke |
| 04:56:18 | tgall_pda | this is one well armed irc channel |
| 04:56:23 | codemnky | lifting |
| 04:56:26 | whardier | we should all get together and kick eachothers butts |
| 04:56:26 | kergoth | Fastolfe: hah |
| 04:56:30 | whardier | hehe |
| 04:56:32 | em1ssnuke | good ... thenit won't be that drastic after mid 30's ....) |
| 04:56:48 | em1ssnuke | it will still happpen! |
| 04:56:56 | codemnky | my damn wife has me on an organic diet |
| 04:57:02 | codemnky | having to drink soy milk |
| 04:57:08 | kergoth | codemnky: i feel sorry for you man |
| 04:57:12 | whardier | what good does that do you |
| 04:57:12 | whardier | really |
| 04:57:15 | kergoth | diets/ |
| 04:57:17 | tgall_pda | codemnky: ewwww! |
| 04:57:18 | kergoth | scoffs |
| 04:57:26 | em1ssnuke | could think of other milk to drink ,,,, |
| 04:57:26 | codemnky | well, not exatcly a diet per say |
| 04:57:37 | whardier | how is soy healthy |
| 04:57:38 | Fastolfe | kergoth: you feel sorry for the soy milk diet or the marriage ? |
| 04:57:42 | codemnky | heh |
| 04:57:43 | codemnky | thc |
| 04:57:45 | codemnky | thx |
| 04:57:53 | kergoth | Fastolfe: soy milk. nothing wrong with marriage |
| 04:57:54 | whardier | train your body to only digest one thing |
| 04:57:55 | whardier | WOOWOO |
| 04:58:00 | kergoth | aha |
| 04:58:10 | whardier | oh look he accedently swallowed a fly |
| 04:58:13 | whardier | that was too muchmeat |
| 04:58:16 | whardier | he is barfing itup! |
| 04:58:17 | Fastolfe | kergoth: come to UT for a week or two and you'll have a whole different way of looking at marraige |
| 04:58:17 | codemnky | we actually might not be really married |
| 04:58:36 | whardier | ? |
| 04:58:38 | kergoth | Fastolfe: aha. do I want to know in what way my perspective will change? |
| 04:58:39 | whardier | Common Law? |
| 04:58:41 | codemnky | we got married in the bahamas and the court house burned down last year, no records |
| 04:58:49 | whardier | HAHAHA |
| 04:58:50 | codemnky | yeah for me! |
| 04:58:54 | ][N-Flux | doom on the Z |
| 04:59:05 | em1ssnuke | ? |
| 04:59:08 | Fastolfe | kergoth: sure : you'll go back home shouting "YEEHAA I'M SINGLE !!" |
| 04:59:16 | tgall_pda | is hitched too |
| 04:59:17 | kergoth | Fastolfe: lol |
| 04:59:27 | whardier | wine experts = cork masters |
| 04:59:32 | codemnky | actually, she a geek (on the inside) as well so we are a good fit |
| 04:59:52 | kergoth | my girl is nearly my exact opposite |
| 04:59:53 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:00:03 | whardier | 4 foor 5 |
| 05:00:12 | whardier | s/foor/foot/ |
| 05:00:14 | codemnky | we are exectly alike, we are just figure out now that's bad |
| 05:00:16 | Fastolfe | codemnky: does she hold her own with a screwdriver ? :) |
| 05:00:19 | em1ssnuke | mine is a controller .. not in the relationship .... |
| 05:00:22 | tgall_pda | mine doesn't grok computers... |
| 05:00:37 | whardier | 81 bounds |
| 05:00:40 | whardier | ah |
| 05:00:42 | whardier | nevermind |
| 05:00:44 | whardier | no typie |
| 05:00:58 | codemnky | mines is learning a new talent of having me work more and her less, i'm not sure i'm digg'n it |
| 05:00:59 | codemnky | :)( |
| 05:01:14 | codemnky | she's sneaky |
| 05:01:16 | em1ssnuke | getting ready for kids |
| 05:01:20 | kergoth | codemnky: thats not a new talent. thats a talent thats inherent in females. |
| 05:01:30 | em1ssnuke | .... |
| 05:01:40 | codemnky | no kids here, we do just fine to feed and water ourselves |
| 05:01:49 | codemnky | barley |
| 05:01:52 | whardier | hahk |
| 05:01:53 | em1ssnuke | yea ... you wait ...... |
| 05:01:55 | whardier | send me sparks |
| 05:02:03 | tgall_pda | codemnky: yeah mine's starting to do the same |
| 05:02:19 | codemnky | i dount it, she wants me to get snipped, so i think i can safly rule kids out |
| 05:02:25 | codemnky | and why am i telling you all this? |
| 05:02:28 | em1ssnuke | the mothering instinct ... takes hold .... |
| 05:02:29 | ][N-Flux | speaking of kids |
| 05:02:42 | ][N-Flux | mine should done in a few months :) |
| 05:02:48 | whardier | can we replace all the teeth in your mouth yet? |
| 05:02:51 | em1ssnuke | congrats |
| 05:02:54 | em1ssnuke | early |
| 05:02:56 | tgall_pda | flux: bun in the oven? |
| 05:03:06 | ][N-Flux | tgall_pda: my chicks oven :) |
| 05:03:07 | tgall_pda | grats! |
| 05:03:25 | Fastolfe | ][N-Flux: may I suggest you grab as much sleep as you can *right now* ? :) |
| 05:03:28 | codemnky | kid our cool, mom has taught 2nd graders for 35 years |
| 05:03:35 | codemnky | kids |
| 05:03:47 | codemnky | won teacher of the year, this year |
| 05:03:49 | ][N-Flux | Fastolfe: I think my sleep has been 10% of my life, so no change there |
| 05:03:57 | whardier | kids are so neet |
| 05:04:12 | em1ssnuke | <---- has no kids ... married late and have an older wife .... extreemly lucky |
| 05:04:12 | Fastolfe | ][N-Flux: that's going to diminish drastically in several month man |
| 05:04:14 | codemnky | i wish i could just set a food and water dish out for them, however |
| 05:04:33 | codemnky | go get daddy a beer! |
| 05:04:48 | codemnky | kidding! |
| 05:04:52 | tgall_pda | heh... |
| 05:04:57 | em1ssnuke | teach the dogs for that..... |
| 05:05:29 | whardier | my cats can fetch donuts |
| 05:05:38 | kergoth | whardier: and eat them? |
| 05:05:41 | whardier | so |
| 05:05:44 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:05:50 | em1ssnuke | :) |
| 05:05:54 | whardier | ever seen a glazed cat? |
| 05:05:58 | Fastolfe | lol |
| 05:06:00 | kergoth | hah |
| 05:06:08 | codemnky | my cat is bigger than the dog |
| 05:06:13 | codemnky | melissa.mycity.com |
| 05:06:13 | em1ssnuke | nite all |
| 05:07:05 | tgall_pda | well time for bed... |
| 05:07:11 | tgall_pda | see ya in the morning... |
| 05:07:20 | codemnky | l8r |
| 05:07:23 | kergoth | codemnky: ill write up some content we need to get on openzaurus.org, then we can think about how to construct the layout / UI for that content |
| 05:07:24 | ][N-Flux | sleepy tim for me too |
| 05:07:26 | kergoth | night tgall_pda |
| 05:07:33 | ][N-Flux | time too |
| 05:07:43 | kergoth | heh night flux |
| 05:07:51 | Fastolfe | seeya all |
| 05:07:51 | codemnky | kergoth: ok, cool - we(you) should plan something really different and unique |
| 05:07:53 | ][N-Flux | is away: sleepy...ZZZzzzZZZzzZZZzzz |
| 05:08:08 | whardier | http://vash.umgllc.com/maxim.jpg <-my fat cat |
| 05:08:21 | ][N-Flux | someone get doom ported so I can install it tomorrow :) |
| 05:08:33 | kergoth | codemnky: agreed. once we get the content established, ill let things float around my mind for a bit and see if any revelations occur. heh |
| 05:08:34 | codemnky | you guys play PSII ? |
| 05:08:48 | whardier | PlayStation II? |
| 05:08:51 | codemnky | that's a phyco cat |
| 05:09:14 | whardier | hehehe |
| 05:09:17 | whardier | thats my max |
| 05:09:37 | codemnky | kergoth: i saw some new updates to the Z rom, you going to plan on incorp the same improments? |
| 05:09:56 | kergoth | codemnky: possibly. some of it is sharp code changes to qtopia that havent been open sourced yet |
| 05:09:56 | codemnky | i was i bit confised about a few things they said they enabled, i thought they already were |
| 05:10:16 | codemnky | like the IrDa port stuff |
| 05:10:43 | codemnky | actually, let me rephrase, who said they were improments! |
| 05:10:54 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:11:13 | codemnky | we can call them additions to the memory footprint |
| 05:11:25 | whardier | openobex ecists |
| 05:11:27 | whardier | exists |
| 05:11:40 | kergoth | we took the list of additional features that are actually useful from the apps in the 1.1x rom, and threw them on the todo list for the Opie project |
| 05:11:40 | codemnky | whether they are usfull are yet is still to be determined |
| 05:11:51 | kergoth | whardier: yeah, but its not integrated into qtopia/opie in cvs yet |
| 05:11:56 | kergoth | whardier: heh |
| 05:12:24 | whardier | soooo |
| 05:12:24 | whardier | he |
| 05:12:25 | whardier | h |
| 05:12:31 | kergoth | whardier: sharp created a nifty little library for a qtopia interface to it.. but havent released the code. fuckers. |
| 05:12:38 | codemnky | i heard zauruzone crashed or something? |
| 05:12:47 | codemnky | again? |
| 05:13:07 | kergoth | did it? i never go to ZZ.. damned web forum inteface annoys me |
| 05:13:09 | codemnky | we need to set up something simular maybe but strictly opensource |
| 05:13:17 | codemnky | me neither |
| 05:13:23 | Fastolfe | anybody has an ipaq here ? |
| 05:13:48 | codemnky | the message board system they use seem to be nice |
| 05:14:02 | whardier | hehe |
| 05:14:15 | codemnky | beside the crashing part |
| 05:14:17 | whardier | kergoth its not too hard to look the other way.. and install X/PicoGUI else |
| 05:14:23 | whardier | you know the apps already exist |
| 05:14:25 | NeoTron | oh, cool (RE Warwick's email re contest) |
| 05:14:31 | kergoth | whardier: yeah yeah i know |
| 05:14:37 | codemnky | i was reading up on picogui today for the 1st time |
| 05:14:37 | whardier | and surprisingly enough.. we can compile QPE programs to work under X :) |
| 05:14:41 | whardier | simple library change :) |
| 05:14:45 | kergoth | whardier: i'd rather work on adding support to opie for openobex |
| 05:14:52 | whardier | I would too |
| 05:14:53 | codemnky | when i first saw it guess what i thought it was |
| 05:15:01 | kergoth | whardier: eh i heard it wasnt so simple.. since it uses the window management functions of qt/e.. |
| 05:15:14 | kergoth | whardier: could be done of course. just not out of the box. heh. |
| 05:15:16 | whardier | but if sharp keeps upstaging our works with mass programmers and no CVS.. then its poopy |
| 05:15:49 | kergoth | yeah.. well we need to raise some hell |
| 05:16:07 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:16:20 | whardier | I have heard rumors fly about openzaurus being the base FS for it.. blah blah blah |
| 05:16:24 | whardier | well.. give us source then |
| 05:16:24 | whardier | heh |
| 05:16:28 | kergoth | heh no shit |
| 05:16:30 | codemnky | just like windows and linux there will be people who follow sharp Z and openZ |
| 05:16:53 | kergoth | yeah but its duplicated effort for both sides to implement the same fucking code |
| 05:16:58 | whardier | codemnky but they are thinking about dropping sharp z |
| 05:17:02 | kergoth | wasted effort. should be collaborative |
| 05:17:04 | whardier | of sorts |
| 05:17:10 | codemnky | hmm |
| 05:17:16 | Fastolfe | kergoth: it's also extra effort to support both |
| 05:17:18 | codemnky | dropping it? |
| 05:17:22 | kergoth | Fastolfe: precisely |
| 05:17:33 | Fastolfe | kergoth: I mean for pkg releasers like myself |
| 05:17:36 | whardier | dropping it for OZ |
| 05:17:43 | Fastolfe | kergoth: I have to make sure it works on both |
| 05:17:47 | whardier | I could possibly know nothign as well |
| 05:18:05 | codemnky | what do you mean both |
| 05:18:10 | whardier | my cat just threw a paintball |
| 05:18:11 | kergoth | Fastolfe: yep. if sharp would release code, at least we'd be running the same shit on both.. for the most part |
| 05:18:14 | Fastolfe | OZ and Sharp's rom |
| 05:18:16 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:18:20 | Fastolfe | yeah |
| 05:18:22 | kergoth | yawns |
| 05:18:36 | codemnky | hrm |
| 05:18:37 | whardier | damnit |
| 05:18:43 | whardier | I need to take a nap |
| 05:18:44 | Fastolfe | well, I can't complain, so far I didn't have to make any drastic change, like fork the distros, for VNC |
| 05:18:55 | Fastolfe | apart for the iPAQ that is :) |
| 05:19:04 | whardier | I need to wake up in a few hours so when a pinguin calls I can instruct him on how to do some stuff with the servers |
| 05:19:14 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:19:52 | codemnky | i'm confused alittle but that's to be expected |
| 05:20:02 | Fastolfe | what by ? |
| 05:20:05 | whardier | hehehe |
| 05:20:06 | codemnky | what do you mean by compatible |
| 05:20:20 | whardier | codemnky sharps z is lightyears ahead of opie |
| 05:20:21 | Fastolfe | hmm |
| 05:20:29 | Fastolfe | codemnky: you talking to me ? :) |
| 05:20:36 | codemnky | opie? |
| 05:20:52 | kergoth | codemnky: http://opie.handhelds.org/ |
| 05:20:59 | Fastolfe | whardier: I run opie on the 'paq right now, and I think it's slicker |
| 05:21:06 | | Opie's home page is http://opie.handhelds.org Visit the IRC channel #opie too! |
| 05:21:06 | kergoth | ibot: opie? |
| 05:21:14 | whardier | Fastolfe I have yet to actually use opie |
| 05:21:17 | codemnky | pls keep in mind i'm a linux hacker that stumbled accross the Z |
| 05:21:21 | codemnky | looking |
| 05:21:23 | whardier | I am gonna snag he CVS and do an x86 compile of it :) |
| 05:21:36 | ][N-Flux | I use bit's of opie with the sharp rom |
| 05:21:43 | Fastolfe | whardier: weeell, I actually have to use qtopia in general |
| 05:21:49 | ][N-Flux | and now I sleep |
| 05:22:13 | codemnky | opie is yours? |
| 05:22:20 | Fastolfe | zaurus == ipaq+linux == unusable for something serious (at the moment anyway) ==> I use Palm |
| 05:22:35 | codemnky | hmm |
| 05:22:35 | kergoth | yeah the apps are far far too lacking for real use, imho |
| 05:22:41 | codemnky | i disagree with that |
| 05:22:41 | kergoth | codemnky: yeah |
| 05:22:50 | kergoth | ? |
| 05:22:54 | ][N-Flux | ugh palm |
| 05:22:59 | codemnky | about the unusable part |
| 05:23:07 | kergoth | the PIM apps in qtopia and opie are seriously deficient |
| 05:23:20 | codemnky | i meant the linux portion |
| 05:23:31 | Fastolfe | palm looks like somebody's dead grandmother, but for biz purpuses, it works. That's what's count. Zaurus == hacker's toy right now |
| 05:23:44 | codemnky | that i will agree with |
| 05:23:45 | kergoth | whardier: /home/kergoth/buildroot-oz/build/opie # current as of a couple hours ago |
| 05:24:12 | kergoth | whardier: cp it over to your area and build it and play around. heh. |
| 05:24:23 | codemnky | it is a hackers toy, period - what would it seriously take to make that different |
| 05:24:35 | kergoth | codemnky: it needs good solid applications |
| 05:24:36 | codemnky | opensource wise |
| 05:24:38 | kergoth | codemnky: thats all |
| 05:25:01 | kergoth | codemnky: this isnt going to be marketed towards the linux hackers, though we're the first ones to pick it up |
| 05:25:03 | codemnky | application that are free or just work with both roms |
| 05:25:05 | Fastolfe | codemnky: A company with a bunch of cash willing to spend 12 man/mth making real world-class apps |
| 05:25:29 | kergoth | Fastolfe: precisely |
| 05:25:30 | codemnky | both roms i'm assuming which is what you meant a while back, now i get it |
| 05:25:40 | Fastolfe | is happy that kergoth agrees |
| 05:25:51 | whardier | augh |
| 05:25:56 | whardier | how do I grab opie CVS |
| 05:25:56 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:26:03 | kergoth | whardier: just copy mine damnit |
| 05:26:07 | whardier | oh |
| 05:26:10 | whardier | I didn't see that |
| 05:26:11 | whardier | heh |
| 05:26:16 | kergoth | whardier: or cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.handhelds.org:/cvs co opie; |
| 05:26:17 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:26:18 | whardier | I was to busy being pissed at HH |
| 05:26:31 | kergoth | why? servers down again? |
| 05:26:41 | Fastolfe | if only whardier could stop boozing and get cracking fixing the bugs in the Zaurus, we'd have such a great PDA |
| 05:26:43 | whardier | it would not allow anoncvs |
| 05:26:52 | kergoth | oh |
| 05:26:54 | whardier | ok is that copiled x86? |
| 05:27:00 | kergoth | Fastolfe: aha |
| 05:27:10 | kergoth | whardier: no.. id ont remember if its compiled at all. build it yourself |
| 05:27:18 | whardier | ok |
| 05:27:19 | kergoth | whardier: /home/kergoth/sources/dev-x86-opie.sh |
| 05:27:21 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:27:30 | kergoth | bipolar_away: ping |
| 05:27:41 | codemnky | so all apps need to work with openz and sharpz to really work right unless zz works together |
| 05:28:00 | Fastolfe | codemnky: depends on what the developer wants |
| 05:28:16 | kergoth | codemnky: the apps are binary compatible between roms, but the sharp rom has some qtopia applications which vary from that which resides in cvs |
| 05:28:20 | codemnky | i'm thinking it depends on what the consumer wants |
| 05:28:29 | Fastolfe | codemnky: If you make an app and you want the larger audience, you want to be compatible with as many distros as possible |
| 05:28:45 | codemnky | i hear ya |
| 05:28:45 | Fastolfe | codemnky: if your app targets hackers, OZ only will do |
| 05:29:02 | codemnky | and Qt is not non-commercial |
| 05:29:10 | codemnky | ? |
| 05:29:13 | kergoth | codemnky: ? |
| 05:29:18 | codemnky | meaning |
| 05:29:19 | Fastolfe | lol |
| 05:29:36 | Fastolfe | Qt ain't no stinkin not non-commercial negation ! |
| 05:29:37 | codemnky | not sure what i mean, i sec |
| 05:29:50 | whardier | me makes opie |
| 05:29:55 | whardier | blah |
| 05:29:56 | Fastolfe | lol |
| 05:29:57 | kergoth | whardier: you sit on your ass |
| 05:29:58 | whardier | its snowing! |
| 05:30:05 | kergoth | eheh |
| 05:30:07 | whardier | kergoth.. what do you sit on? |
| 05:30:18 | Fastolfe | whardier: I told you you were still on the island man |
| 05:30:23 | whardier | hehe |
| 05:30:30 | whardier | kergoth you sayin I am lazy with OZ? |
| 05:30:53 | kergoth | with opie anyway. you havent even downloaded it yet. lol |
| 05:30:56 | Fastolfe | whardier: I think he was just saying that you use your ass to sit on |
| 05:30:59 | whardier | thats the goddamn truth.. poor me has no money so I have been selling my services |
| 05:31:11 | kergoth | such is life |
| 05:31:33 | whardier | yeah |
| 05:31:36 | whardier | I wanna se Today |
| 05:31:41 | whardier | aahaha |
| 05:31:45 | whardier | soap is a four letter word |
| 05:32:07 | Fastolfe | AH SHIT |
| 05:32:21 | kergoth | Fastolfe: ? |
| 05:32:21 | Fastolfe | I lost the screw that holds the Zaurus' board in place |
| 05:32:24 | whardier | washes Fastolfe'smouth with soap |
| 05:32:26 | kergoth | oops |
| 05:32:41 | codemnky | i guess sharp will not be targeting users with their Z consumer modle who know how to load an image on a rom, push 2 keys twice and tap this and klick that |
| 05:32:46 | Fastolfe | pfffraahhhhh SOAP |
| 05:32:59 | kergoth | codemnky: ? the user can stick with the default rom if they like |
| 05:33:29 | Fastolfe | kergoth: do you know if you can get qipkg to pop message boxes ? |
| 05:33:41 | codemnky | and then how do you fit in, in that situation |
| 05:33:42 | kergoth | Fastolfe: 'pop message boxes'? |
| 05:33:52 | whardier | this place is confusing tonight |
| 05:34:01 | codemnky | oh come on |
| 05:34:04 | Fastolfe | yeah, like "Thanks for installing fbvncserver. Please reboot your PDA now, bitch ..." |
| 05:34:11 | kergoth | codemnky: openzaurus is for the zaurus power user.. for those who want to try an alternate distro |
| 05:34:13 | whardier | hahaha |
| 05:34:16 | codemnky | put the pipe down whardier |
| 05:34:18 | whardier | there should be a qpopup app |
| 05:34:23 | Fastolfe | yeah |
| 05:34:29 | kergoth | Fastolfe: hey actually someone threw up a app to generate a popup.. for shell scripts.. search ZZ |
| 05:34:33 | whardier | heyy.. I could even program that |
| 05:34:37 | Fastolfe | ahAH |
| 05:34:39 | kergoth | whardier: already done. hehe. |
| 05:34:40 | Fastolfe | looks |
| 05:34:44 | whardier | doh |
| 05:34:48 | codemnky | ok, just checking, i hear ya loud and clear |
| 05:34:56 | kergoth | i can never think of a good app to create, thats why i spend my time fixing shit |
| 05:35:01 | whardier | hasno pipe |
| 05:35:01 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:35:08 | whardier | Ihave cats |
| 05:35:17 | whardier | I do not smoke the cats |
| 05:35:20 | codemnky | you a coke can with a hole in it |
| 05:35:29 | whardier | codemnky haha |
| 05:35:31 | Fastolfe | whardier: your spacebar looks sick |
| 05:35:40 | whardier | Fastolfe its broken |
| 05:35:46 | Fastolfe | ah ah! |
| 05:35:50 | Fastolfe | is so cunning |
| 05:35:50 | whardier | this laptop sucks |
| 05:36:00 | codemnky | i'm just trying to understand it all |
| 05:36:02 | whardier | and boy Fastolfe amuzes himself |
| 05:36:06 | codemnky | i think i almost got it |
| 05:36:10 | Fastolfe | hell yeah |
| 05:36:23 | codemnky | any of you play PSII ? |
| 05:36:26 | whardier | cpp compilers are slooow |
| 05:36:30 | whardier | Playstation II? |
| 05:36:33 | codemnky | iyea |
| 05:36:35 | whardier | heh |
| 05:36:35 | kergoth | codemnky: comprehension approaches? |
| 05:36:36 | whardier | I do |
| 05:36:41 | whardier | Que? |
| 05:36:43 | kergoth | i dont have a console system at all atm |
| 05:36:46 | codemnky | man i am love'n MAX PAYNE |
| 05:36:54 | whardier | heh |
| 05:36:58 | whardier | thats an x86 game too |
| 05:37:06 | kergoth | yea i have max payne installed on this box |
| 05:37:07 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:37:10 | codemnky | yea, my bro dl it off of morph |
| 05:37:23 | kergoth | good game. but i get sick of single player. need multiplayer action |
| 05:37:24 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:37:39 | codemnky | i had to persude my in law to get it for me for birthday |
| 05:37:45 | codemnky | it worked |
| 05:38:07 | kergoth | my screen is jumping around again |
| 05:38:12 | codemnky | <kergoth> codemnky: comprehension approaches? ? |
| 05:38:15 | kergoth | i need to see if this monitor is still in warranty |
| 05:38:16 | BigBoss | stop touching it like that then :) |
| 05:38:17 | codemnky | what was that? |
| 05:38:26 | kergoth | codemnky: you mentioned yoru difficulties understanding all this :-) |
| 05:38:31 | codemnky | no |
| 05:38:38 | kergoth | BigBoss: hah. no i just look at it.. and it moves around :-) |
| 05:38:46 | kergoth | stupid monitor |
| 05:38:52 | codemnky | not difficulties, just that i AM understanding it all, now |
| 05:38:58 | kergoth | codemnky: oh godo |
| 05:38:59 | kergoth | er |
| 05:39:00 | kergoth | s/godo/good/ |
| 05:39:12 | kergoth | BigBoss: how goes it? |
| 05:39:18 | codemnky | so what's the ideal solution again? |
| 05:39:31 | kergoth | codemnky: ideal solution for what? |
| 05:39:32 | codemnky | and is the ideal solution even near possible |
| 05:39:36 | BigBoss | working our butts off ;) |
| 05:40:00 | codemnky | it sounded like before there was a bit of a prblem |
| 05:40:03 | kergoth | BigBoss: ah. productivity. nifty. how are the new Z apps coming along? :-) |
| 05:40:09 | kergoth | codemnky: problem with what? |
| 05:40:09 | BigBoss | so does an FTP client for the Z sound interesting? |
| 05:40:18 | codemnky | you said you needed a company that had major cash to make apps |
| 05:40:29 | codemnky | what's the alt |
| 05:40:34 | BigBoss | someone talking about me? ;) |
| 05:40:41 | Fastolfe | heh |
| 05:40:43 | kergoth | codemnky: something like that, because the Z's real problem right now is the lack of solid general applications for the consumer |
| 05:40:50 | codemnky | 1 sec, let me send you me account numbers |
| 05:41:07 | BigBoss | kergoth: that is where I come in :) |
| 05:41:13 | Fastolfe | codemnky: Why ? so he can clean you out ? :)) |
| 05:41:17 | kergoth | BigBoss: of course |
| 05:41:18 | kergoth | hehe |
| 05:41:22 | codemnky | i don't know much about them, but thekompany had a few nice apps |
| 05:41:25 | codemnky | i'm sure many do |
| 05:41:49 | codemnky | and they were cheap |
| 05:41:53 | BigBoss | codemnky: I am theKompany |
| 05:41:58 | BigBoss | do you have questions or suggestions? |
| 05:42:06 | BigBoss | we are always interested in ideas |
| 05:42:10 | codemnky | well, congragts, i bought a few of your products |
| 05:42:23 | BigBoss | kergoth: what do you think about the FTP client? ours will be out early next week |
| 05:42:32 | BigBoss | codemnky: glad to have you as a customer :) |
| 05:42:55 | kergoth | BigBoss: really? the first day i got my Z i was wondering if anyone had a qtopia ftp client yet :-) |
| 05:42:59 | BigBoss | I gotta tell you, our embedded stuff has been outselling all our other software since we annoucned it and the Z isn't even shipping yet |
| 05:43:00 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:43:06 | kergoth | has it? |
| 05:43:11 | kergoth | glad to hear it |
| 05:43:16 | BigBoss | kergoth: it will be similar to our file explorer |
| 05:43:23 | codemnky | noteL i do not work for bigboss |
| 05:43:27 | codemnky | really |
| 05:43:28 | BigBoss | it's basically done right now, just adding some polish |
| 05:43:45 | kergoth | BigBoss: ah cool.. btw the release file browser able to spawn the app associated with a file's mime type yet? :-) |
| 05:43:50 | BigBoss | the damn network module of Qt sucks, we are rewriting it at the moment |
| 05:44:13 | BigBoss | kergoth: haven't done that yet. I've had Max busy on a Kivio update, but I might have the tkcFTP author do that |
| 05:44:26 | BigBoss | could be useful for the ftp client so that it downloads and spaws at the same time |
| 05:44:33 | kergoth | agreed. thats cool |
| 05:44:37 | BigBoss | like that IE "download or run from current location" |
| 05:44:47 | codemnky | funny huh, walk into a chat room and someone is talking about you |
| 05:44:58 | kergoth | BigBoss: yeah. especially useful for text documents |
| 05:44:59 | codemnky | what next on your plate? |
| 05:45:04 | BigBoss | happens all the time to me - but usually bad stuff :) |
| 05:45:17 | codemnky | what's |
| 05:45:21 | BigBoss | well, we've got a media player (well two of them, we have to decide on one) |
| 05:45:28 | BigBoss | and a TimeTracker app |
| 05:45:33 | BigBoss | this is for consultants |
| 05:45:42 | BigBoss | once you see it you'll realize how handy it is |
| 05:45:57 | BigBoss | and I've got a jabber plug in that is going to just blow you away, but I don't want to talk about it yet |
| 05:46:04 | codemnky | what's your focus, arm apps? |
| 05:46:11 | BigBoss | let's see, mmm - some other things I don't want to talk about yet either |
| 05:46:13 | BigBoss | sorry :) |
| 05:46:51 | codemnky | well, i've looked over all your products and i must say i'm impressed - i hope things go well for you |
| 05:47:00 | BigBoss | thanks - me too :) |
| 05:47:04 | codemnky | and damn they are cheap |
| 05:47:11 | whardier | damn cheap monkeys |
| 05:47:13 | BigBoss | I've got Sharp, Lineo, Trolltech and some others talking to us |
| 05:47:25 | BigBoss | we've already done some consulting for TT on Qtopia |
| 05:47:39 | BigBoss | you should see our proposal for the UI from last year, I still think it's better than what they did |
| 05:47:53 | codemnky | i got the db ark |
| 05:47:57 | BigBoss | all the icons on Qtopia came from us |
| 05:48:17 | codemnky | is it ok that i mailed it to all my friends? |
| 05:48:17 | BigBoss | of course TT doesn't tell anyone that :) |
| 05:48:21 | codemnky | just kidding |
| 05:48:28 | BigBoss | :) |
| 05:48:37 | codemnky | nice app |
| 05:48:48 | codemnky | been looking for that one |
| 05:48:54 | BigBoss | which one? |
| 05:48:59 | codemnky | the one i got |
| 05:49:02 | codemnky | db ark |
| 05:49:10 | BigBoss | wait - what is db ark? |
| 05:49:20 | BigBoss | I've been drinking the last few hours :) |
| 05:49:40 | kergoth | is only drinking caffinated products at the moment |
| 05:49:53 | codemnky | that's my short hand |
| 05:50:02 | codemnky | you only have 1 db app |
| 05:50:04 | BigBoss | nothing like a single malt scotch that is heavy with peat :) |
| 05:50:12 | BigBoss | we have a db app? |
| 05:50:17 | codemnky | hrm |
| 05:50:21 | whardier | sqlite |
| 05:50:23 | whardier | gadfly |
| 05:50:28 | whardier | all sorts of shit if you want it |
| 05:50:30 | codemnky | the one that reverse engineers dbs |
| 05:50:38 | BigBoss | oh, DataArchitect |
| 05:50:44 | BigBoss | I thought you were talking about the Zaurus |
| 05:50:46 | codemnky | ok, you qualify |
| 05:50:50 | BigBoss | that is why I couldn't figure it out |
| 05:50:52 | codemnky | heh |
| 05:51:05 | codemnky | i was testing you |
| 05:51:06 | BigBoss | we were having a design meeting on DA today |
| 05:51:15 | BigBoss | there is some freaking cool stuff coming for that app |
| 05:51:19 | codemnky | cool |
| 05:51:35 | codemnky | i need it to understand what the hell my delelopers did |
| 05:51:40 | BigBoss | our vision on the stuff we are doing is so high up you would get a nose bleed |
| 05:51:53 | BigBoss | dude, when our whole suite is done you will worship us :) |
| 05:52:04 | codemnky | i'll bring my credit card |
| 05:52:30 | BigBoss | we've got the entire SDLC covered, and it is all reusable and business process oriented |
| 05:52:38 | codemnky | you stuff looks very professional |
| 05:52:39 | whardier | oh bloody hell |
| 05:52:41 | BigBoss | uses existing technologies and languages |
| 05:52:44 | BigBoss | it's sweet |
| 05:52:53 | codemnky | ok, enough ass kissing |
| 05:52:53 | BigBoss | I just gotta get enough hands on it to finish it quickly |
| 05:52:58 | codemnky | send of the free samples |
| 05:53:01 | codemnky | us |
| 05:53:08 | codemnky | :) |
| 05:53:23 | NeoTron | looks at his hand.s |
| 05:53:24 | NeoTron | heh |
| 05:53:26 | BigBoss | tell you what - buy 10,000 copies at full price, and then I can hire enough people to finish things up quickly :) |
| 05:53:32 | NeoTron | hehe |
| 05:53:40 | NeoTron | wouldn't that be handy |
| 05:53:52 | codemnky | well, i only have 4 real developers so that might be a problem |
| 05:53:56 | BigBoss | it would apy the bills :) |
| 05:54:06 | BigBoss | how about if I charge you $2,500 per copy instead of $50? |
| 05:54:15 | BigBoss | did you at least buy 4 copies? no! |
| 05:54:19 | BigBoss | :) |
| 05:54:25 | codemnky | you should fix your software so it can't be mass copied |
| 05:54:57 | BigBoss | well the license gives us the right to sue you if you do it, and there is far more money in sueing you than selling it to you :) |
| 05:54:57 | codemnky | actually i'm the only one who's useing it at the moment |
| 05:55:14 | codemnky | but that has always interested me |
| 05:55:32 | codemnky | you can't get blood from a stone |
| 05:55:36 | codemnky | but |
| 05:55:43 | BigBoss | geez, that crematorium in georgia is up to 300 bodies now |
| 05:55:45 | codemnky | why not put in protection |
| 05:55:53 | BigBoss | which reminds me - almost time for south park :) |
| 05:56:24 | BigBoss | protection is a pain in the ass - we like to trust our customers, if they betray that trust, then we have to be dicks and we don't want to be dicks |
| 05:57:06 | codemnky | i hear ya, i don't do that type of work |
| 05:57:13 | kergoth | codemnky: copy protection doesnt prevent copying, it discourages it. you have to balance the effort to protect with the amount of discouraging it will do. |
| 05:57:15 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:57:19 | codemnky | it must be a pain, or you would do it |
| 05:57:23 | whardier | kills self |
| 05:57:27 | kergoth | whardier: problems? |
| 05:57:34 | whardier | kergoth.. baby.. butterball.. Ima work on opie manyana |
| 05:57:43 | whardier | I need to nap forthe penguins |
| 05:58:12 | kergoth | whardier: heh. not a prob. i dont care all that much. sleep is good. get to it. |
| 05:58:12 | kergoth | heh |
| 05:58:17 | kergoth | yawns |
| 05:58:35 | codemnky | later whardier, i have a bone to pick w/you |
| 05:58:49 | codemnky | making fun of me a while back |
| 05:59:04 | NeoTron | There, two more "demo" limitations implemented. |
| 05:59:07 | whardier | codemnky hah |
| 05:59:11 | whardier | you bone picker |
| 05:59:25 | codemnky | eveyone is picking pn me |
| 05:59:28 | whardier | what making fun of? |
| 05:59:28 | codemnky | on |
| 05:59:31 | whardier | the skinny? |
| 05:59:33 | codemnky | no |
| 05:59:39 | codemnky | the button support |
| 05:59:44 | kergoth | that reminds me of that song why is everybody always picking on me? by bloodhound gang |
| 05:59:49 | whardier | codemnky hehe |
| 05:59:49 | kergoth | heh |
| 06:00:14 | codemnky | i have all kinds of buttons on my Z, how the hell did i know what he meant |
| 06:00:19 | whardier | codemnky I really did not know what was going on.. hehe.. I just wanted to pick on somebody the moment I payed back attention tot he channel |
| 06:00:20 | whardier | ehehe |
| 06:00:37 | whardier | tot he |
| 06:00:40 | codemnky | :P |
| 06:01:29 | codemnky | on this channel |
| 06:01:39 | codemnky | i met theKompany guy |
| 06:01:42 | whardier | hehe |
| 06:01:44 | codemnky | the Etem guy |
| 06:01:55 | codemnky | the Windowmaker guy |
| 06:02:02 | codemnky | the Enlightmenent Guy |
| 06:02:12 | codemnky | damn |
| 06:02:15 | whardier | hehe |
| 06:02:16 | codemnky | funny |
| 06:02:24 | whardier | ok.. sleeeeeeeeeeeeeep |
| 06:02:30 | codemnky | all the stuff i use eveyday |
| 06:03:00 | codemnky | the Z guy(s) |
| 06:03:05 | kergoth | codemnky: using networking (internet) to network (people). odd. |
| 06:03:09 | kergoth | codemnky: heh |
| 06:03:35 | codemnky | nheh |
| 06:03:38 | Fastolfe | brb I have an audience with Princess Nicotine |
| 06:03:39 | codemnky | just funny |
| 06:03:56 | kergoth | k i think im gonna go play a computer game and then sleep. afk |
| 06:04:16 | codemnky | bye all, max payne need an ass kickinhg |
| 06:04:17 | kergoth`gone | is away: no longer here |
| 06:04:23 | kergoth`gone | night codemnky |
| 06:04:26 | codemnky | l8r |
| 06:04:28 | kergoth`gone | night everyone else |
| 06:04:30 | codemnky | see ya |
| 06:04:36 | kergoth`gone | talk to you all tomorrow |
| 06:04:37 | kergoth`gone | heh |
| 06:29:55 | BigBoss | cool, just got the new dream theater double CD in |
| 09:21:51 | Guest | hi, has anyone updated the flash rom on the sl5000d to v1.11 |
| 12:32:57 | scanline | is back (gone 10:42:40) |
| 13:38:07 | jose | hola |
| 14:28:46 | boob | hi |
| 14:28:47 | boob | heh |
| 14:28:49 | boob | ps -aux |
| 14:28:51 | boob | woot |
| 14:28:52 | boob | a |
| 14:33:01 | whardier | http://www.slacker.com/~nugget/stuff/pophell.jpg |
| 14:35:56 | ljp | what a frickin mess that is! |
| 14:37:41 | whardier | http://www.slacker.com/~nugget/stuff/sysadmin-alphabet.txt |
| 14:41:13 | Com[Plx | looks like the back of my rack., only a little bigger. |
| 14:41:49 | Com[Plx | mines 3.5 feet tall and about as cluttered. |
| 14:44:09 | ljp | thats the way the back of my audio mixer looks like! |
| 14:44:36 | Com[Plx | yeah, exactly |
| 14:44:40 | Com[Plx | http://me.256k.net/casemod/stereo3.jpg |
| 14:45:27 | Com[Plx | its had some additions to it now, like another rackmount server, and a wireless access point, wich made me have to re orginise all my power, - so I got two power strips back there. hehe |
| 14:46:04 | Com[Plx | I gotta run. got a chiropractor appointment in a half hour. |
| 14:47:07 | Com[Plx | ljp, btw, I ran that cvs command yesterday, downloaded that whole image from the cvs repository, - I dont yet understand all of that command, but im looking forward to making all sense of it when I get home. - maybe after a nap ":> |
| 14:47:12 | Com[Plx | thanx for your help |
| 14:47:49 | whardier | its too early ljp |
| 14:48:00 | whardier | FUCKING SUN! |
| 15:04:09 | kergoth`work | morning all |
| 15:05:09 | whardier | re |
| 15:06:00 | kergoth`work | hows it goin whardier? |
| 15:06:03 | kergoth`work | hey ljp |
| 15:09:28 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | gezzz.. I just love dialup connections |
| 15:10:20 | kergoth`work | heh |
| 15:10:51 | whardier | ljp I am gonna put wireless in the area some day |
| 15:10:59 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | I thik if I breathe too hard near the phone. I get disconnected |
| 15:11:14 | whardier | where do you work LJP? |
| 15:11:15 | BigBoss | howdy |
| 15:11:17 | kergoth`work | mornin BigBoss |
| 15:11:23 | whardier | slaps around BigBoss |
| 15:11:29 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | whardier: I own my own shop. |
| 15:11:36 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | nothing to do with tech |
| 15:11:37 | whardier | ljp tech or music? |
| 15:11:49 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | neither |
| 15:11:55 | whardier | well well? |
| 15:12:00 | BigBoss | specialty male prostitution :) |
| 15:12:08 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | I own a mailboxes, etc type place |
| 15:12:29 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | I have lots of time to sit in the back and code |
| 15:12:35 | kergoth`work | whardier: fixed a bug preventing the jffs2 image being created in the OZ buildsystem |
| 15:12:51 | whardier | kergoth WOOWOO |
| 15:12:56 | kergoth`work | heh |
| 15:13:06 | whardier | I need to go to work and do some DB stuff.. then I wanna play with Opie! |
| 15:13:16 | kergoth`work | cool cool |
| 15:13:25 | kergoth`work | speaking of work, i should see if there's any real work i should be doing |
| 15:13:29 | kergoth`work | brb |
| 15:13:31 | whardier | heh |
| 15:13:42 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | real work? whats that? |
| 15:14:03 | BigBoss | so what's up with OZ 3 these days? |
| 15:14:08 | whardier | chippy down wit you panny hoe |
| 15:14:32 | whardier | BigBoss NOT TELLING! |
| 15:15:01 | whardier | attempts to restore something from a backup |
| 15:15:05 | whardier | I have never tried it yet |
| 15:15:13 | whardier | and we have been using this backup system for like 2 months |
| 15:15:14 | whardier | heh |
| 15:19:24 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | well, I hope that was not the photo of the system you admin... |
| 15:20:34 | whardier | oh hell no |
| 15:20:56 | ljp_workDamnWindowsBox | pity the fool that does |
| 15:22:15 | bipolar | is back (gone 18:27:26) |
| 15:22:16 | whardier | tries to imagine ljp saying "pity da foo" |
| 15:24:02 | ljp_work | ya.. with my Mr. T hair.. |
| 15:25:17 | ljp_work | and my gold chains |
| 15:26:31 | whardier | and your selling out |
| 15:27:45 | whardier | who here has ever seen Pootie Tang? |
| 15:27:53 | ljp_work | money talks.. bullsh*t walks... heh |
| 15:28:17 | ljp_work | hmm I've heard the song "wang Dang Sweet Poon Tang" does that count? |
| 15:28:24 | BigBoss | good old Nugent |
| 15:28:28 | whardier | hehehe |
| 15:28:36 | whardier | newp |
| 15:28:43 | whardier | Pootie Tang is a great american movie |
| 15:28:55 | ljp_work | uncle Ted |
| 15:29:40 | ljp_work | I saw a poon tang once.. does that count? |
| 15:29:53 | whardier | haha |
| 15:29:55 | whardier | no |
| 15:30:03 | whardier | go rent Pootie Tang |
| 15:30:04 | whardier | heh |
| 15:30:16 | ljp_work | I saw poon tang in a movie once .. does THAT count? |
| 15:30:22 | BigBoss | I managed to see Nugent with Damn Yankees - that guy is beyond alpha male |
| 15:30:44 | whardier | http://us.imdb.com/Title?0258038 |
| 15:30:46 | whardier | ^^ |
| 15:30:49 | whardier | see tis |
| 15:30:51 | whardier | err this |
| 15:31:26 | ljp_work | I saw a Ted Nugent hunting video where he completely missed a dear with a bow from about 25 feet.. |
| 15:31:34 | kergoth`work | aha |
| 15:32:34 | whardier | I touched God! |
| 15:35:15 | whardier | good shit! |
| 15:35:20 | whardier | imdbpro.com |
| 15:35:26 | whardier | somebody needs to write a QT client for this! |
| 15:35:29 | ljp_work | crime fighter AND recording artist? |
| 15:35:57 | whardier | ljp_work its damn funny |
| 15:36:06 | ljp_work | boy is thata stretch |
| 15:36:13 | whardier | no it isn't |
| 15:36:15 | whardier | look at the crow! |
| 15:36:18 | whardier | hehehe |
| 15:36:38 | whardier | or Josie and the Pussycats! |
| 15:36:51 | whardier | orr.. Buckaroooooo BANZAI!!! |
| 15:38:11 | kergoth`work | argh i hate it when my scripts do something they shouldnt |
| 15:38:20 | whardier | OH I CAN'T STOP THIS FEELIN... DEEP IN SIIIIDE OF CHEESE! |
| 15:38:31 | kergoth`work | just lost a makefile i needed. now need to rewrite it |
| 15:38:39 | whardier | doheth |
| 15:38:41 | kergoth`work | argh |
| 15:38:43 | kergoth`work | worse than that |
| 15:38:46 | whardier | undelete? |
| 15:38:56 | kergoth`work | i lost 2 Makefiles that I spent .. 2 hours writing |
| 15:38:59 | kergoth`work | grrrr |
| 15:39:09 | whardier | kergoth should turn on screen logging |
| 15:39:09 | mandrake | kergoth`work: cvs is your friend. |
| 15:39:34 | kergoth`work | mandrake: well yeah. too bad I'm working solely in my local tree and didnt commit the new changes yet. doh. |
| 15:39:35 | whardier | I have saved my ass many a time by using screen logging.. then peicing together what I lost from screen scrolling thru what I list |
| 15:39:39 | whardier | s/list/lost/ |
| 15:39:42 | mandrake | kergoth`work: branching. |
| 15:39:42 | kergoth`work | hah |
| 15:40:25 | kergoth`work | mandrake: i know, i shouldve branched this. its a restructuring of the current source tree and a buildsystem rewrite, so didnt want to commit into MAIN. oh well, time to start rewriting |
| 15:40:28 | whardier | kergoth should I do a tape backupof your directory every 5 minutes? |
| 15:40:34 | kergoth`work | hah |
| 15:40:50 | mandrake | there are only a few things I dislike about CVS |
| 15:41:00 | mandrake | but I couldn't live without it. |
| 15:41:21 | kergoth`work | i hate the fact that one cant move files.. just rm & add which screws up history of the file in question |
| 15:41:48 | kergoth`work | bbiaf. need to rewrite these makefiles |
| 15:45:40 | codemnky | hola |
| 15:46:27 | codemnky | anyone here use a cell phone to connect with their Z? |
| 15:46:40 | dkl | codemnky: works with my Nokia 8290 |
| 15:46:56 | codemnky | ok, cool cause i need a new cell phone |
| 15:47:05 | codemnky | how much does one of them go for? |
| 15:47:30 | codemnky | i've seen the instructions on how to do it, is it simple? |
| 15:47:37 | codemnky | it seems simple |
| 15:48:44 | codemnky | can you breify exaplin how it works? |
| 15:48:58 | codemnky | you just called your isp with the cell phone and put the Z next to it? |
| 15:49:24 | dkl | codemnky: It should work with any phone that has an IR port. I actually pay 2.99 extra a month for data capabilities with my phone. |
| 15:49:50 | codemnky | how does it work exactly? i have a dial up provider |
| 15:50:19 | codemnky | so i need to request data also |
| 15:50:40 | dkl | When pointing a device at my IR port, it acts like a standard modem and accepts AT style commands. So basically I used the Internet Wizard on the Z to create a Dialup connection and choose /dev/ircomm as the serial device |
| 15:51:08 | dkl | codemnky: you need to make sure that you get the Data/Fax service. I use Cingular Wireless, not sure about others |
| 15:51:54 | Kopsis | codemnky: It depends on your mobile service provider. Some block data calls unless you pay extra for that service. |
| 15:52:20 | codemnky | thx alot, i might be back here when i get the phone :) |
| 15:52:58 | dkl | good luck |
| 15:53:24 | codemnky | how is the connection speed? |
| 15:53:31 | codemnky | will i be able to ssh into my servers?> |
| 15:54:10 | dkl | unfortunately Cingular only offers 9600 baud at this time but that is fine for simple text messaging and popping email. Kind of slow for web surfing using Opera unless the sites are strictly text. |
| 15:54:36 | dkl | They are supposed to upgrade sometime in the future to 14,400 but no telling when\ |
| 15:54:41 | codemnky | how about instant messageing? |
| 15:54:59 | codemnky | well thx for the info |
| 15:55:23 | codemnky | i wonder what this is going to be exacty: |
| 15:55:26 | codemnky | http://www.sharpmobile.com/ |
| 15:55:30 | dkl | codemnky: Well you should be able to use apps like Zic (IRC) and tkJabber (Jabber,AOL,MSN) fine just like on a regular desktop |
| 15:55:39 | codemnky | ok, cool |
| 15:55:47 | dkl | codemnky: dont know but I will sure get it if it is cool :) |
| 15:56:23 | codemnky | man, i am so close to being on the beach while pretending i'm at work! |
| 15:56:36 | codemnky | :) |
| 15:56:57 | kergoth`work | mornin codemnky |
| 15:57:05 | dkl | I am wondering if SharpMobile will be like the new Palmi705 wherer you have always on email, message or if it will be just like a cellular modem where you have to instantiate the connection when yyou want to do something |
| 15:57:08 | codemnky | hey what's up |
| 15:57:24 | Dr_Who | Morning gents |
| 15:57:35 | codemnky | just chat'n about cell phones, Z's and Beaches |
| 15:57:37 | Dr_Who | <--- aka tgall for those that don't know |
| 15:58:51 | kergoth`work | ah, mornin dr |
| 16:28:34 | whardier | damn codemnky |
| 16:46:49 | scanline | is away: class time |
| 16:55:57 | kergoth`work | anyone here have a good understanding of licensing issues? |
| 16:57:45 | Dr_Who | kergoth`work: like what in particular? |
| 16:59:11 | kergoth`work | well, regarding qtopia |
| 16:59:12 | kergoth`work | its dual licensed, qpl and gpl |
| 16:59:13 | kergoth`work | if i make a change to the code, as a can under the gpl, and submit it back to trolltech to be merged into their codebase, what are the implications? will my few lines of alteration be solely gpl, while the rest of the code is still dual licensed? or would I have to allow them to license my alterations under both qpl and gpl? |
| 16:59:13 | kergoth`work | heh |
| 17:00:06 | Dr_Who | ag ,,, |
| 17:00:09 | Dr_Who | ah ... I mean |
| 17:00:16 | Dr_Who | well ok ... first they are the holder of the copyright |
| 17:00:23 | Dr_Who | they get to decide the license 8-) |
| 17:00:33 | bipolar | Dr_Who: Not for what someone else writes. |
| 17:00:38 | Dr_Who | so while your changes you give back to them are under the GPL |
| 17:00:50 | Dr_Who | that means they don't get to choose the license... so your code STAYs GPL |
| 17:00:59 | Dr_Who | bipolar: I was getting there 8-) |
| 17:00:59 | whardier | damn |
| 17:01:01 | whardier | that is confusing |
| 17:01:07 | Dr_Who | whardier: yup |
| 17:01:12 | kergoth`work | so you can have bits of gpl only code in a dual licensed qpl/gpl codebase? |
| 17:01:17 | kergoth`work | interesting |
| 17:01:30 | bipolar | Dr_Who: but then they can't license the whole thing as qpl to someoen else. |
| 17:01:31 | xxL | actually that's not true |
| 17:01:38 | Dr_Who | well if it's gpl .... it's gpl ... the other license maybe there but it's not too useful |
| 17:01:43 | kergoth`work | xxL: ? |
| 17:01:44 | Dr_Who | bipolar: exactly |
| 17:02:01 | xxL | TT will simply refure to add your code to their Qtopia unless you give up your code to them |
| 17:02:02 | Dr_Who | they can't take someone's work which is under the gpl and relicense that as just qpl for instance |
| 17:02:10 | xxL | s/refure/refuse |
| 17:02:12 | Dr_Who | xxL : exactly |
| 17:02:21 | kergoth`work | thats what i figured |
| 17:02:29 | Dr_Who | tho some open source projects do that anwyay .... the FSF for instance... |
| 17:02:35 | xxL | this way they keep the code "GPL clean" |
| 17:03:38 | kergoth`work | Dr_Who, xxL: thanks a lot for the assistance.. this is key in our discussion on the philosophy and policies for the Opie project |
| 17:03:44 | kergoth`work | hey roge99 |
| 17:03:54 | roge99 | hey kergoth`work how goes it |
| 17:04:04 | roge99 | whats new |
| 17:04:04 | xxL | kergoth: look at how're they doing the same thing with KDE |
| 17:04:08 | kergoth | roge99: not bad, you? |
| 17:04:17 | roge99 | busy busy busy |
| 17:04:44 | xxL | more and more of KDE's UI functionality is migrating into Qt, but TT is not actually taking KDE code. they simply rewrite it from scrtch |
| 17:04:46 | kergoth | xxL: where do I look? is whats going on there written up somewhere? |
| 17:05:11 | kergoth | oh i see |
| 17:05:11 | kergoth | hmm |
| 17:05:24 | xxL | in other words, they won't take your code, but will write their own |
| 17:05:42 | xxL | onless you explicitely give them ownership of your code |
| 17:05:51 | xxL | s/onless/unless |
| 17:06:14 | kergoth | okay, let me let this sink in :-) |
| 17:07:55 | BigBoss | xxl is a licensing expert |
| 17:08:01 | BigBoss | he's the guy I always ask :) |
| 17:08:31 | kergoth | hehe |
| 17:08:35 | kergoth | has been very helpful |
| 17:08:39 | kergoth | i dont feel quite so lost |
| 17:09:13 | mark_ | kergoth: apparently |
| 17:09:20 | xxL | oh yeah, I should write a book "1000 loopholes in GPL" :) |
| 17:09:27 | kergoth | aha |
| 17:09:41 | BigBoss | RMS would come and sit in your room and make you smell him :) |
| 17:09:42 | mark_ | if we make 'significant' contributions, we get a stake in their copyright |
| 17:09:59 | kergoth | mark_: ? |
| 17:10:07 | xxL | mark_: how much do you think is "significant" ? |
| 17:10:16 | mark_ | xxL: 'that is for a lawyer to decide' |
| 17:10:52 | xxL | mark_: not entirely true. I'd say 'that's for TT to decide' |
| 17:10:53 | sjohnson | mark_: Any code your generate is yours. Their code is theirs. |
| 17:11:19 | mark_ | but when we submit code to them we give up our copyright dont we? |
| 17:11:27 | xxL | yes |
| 17:11:32 | kergoth | mark_: only because they wouldnt accept it otherwise |
| 17:11:52 | mark_ | was ljp made aware of this when he submitted his patches? |
| 17:11:52 | sjohnson | mark_: What kergoth said. |
| 17:12:08 | kergoth | mark_: good question |
| 17:12:16 | mark_ | and what if he wasn't? |
| 17:12:20 | mark_ | sjohnson: okay |
| 17:12:43 | xxL | mark_: then it's too late, I guess |
| 17:12:43 | sjohnson | Did ljp sumbit his under GPL of TT's licenses? |
| 17:12:55 | sjohnson | ...GPL or TT's... |
| 17:12:57 | kergoth | ljp: ping |
| 17:13:23 | mark_ | he just submitted them i think :) |
| 17:13:38 | kergoth | mark_: i suspect he didnt realize what exactly it entailed |
| 17:13:55 | mark_ | kergoth: precisely |
| 17:14:09 | mark_ | But suppose that you and the author of the patch didn't discuss the matter? Now it gets really murky. It might be the case that the author of the patch could later sue you for having used his patch in a way that he didn't want, but on the other hand a court might rule that by sending the patch to you, it was understood that he was giving you the right to use it. Most actual hackers seem to assume that submitters of patches are automatically gran |
| 17:14:09 | mark_ | ting the recipient a license to use the patch and to use the combined work derived from combining the patch with the original source tree. As far as I know, this assumption is not supported by any legal fact. |
| 17:14:27 | mark_ | http://www.zooko.com/license_quick_ref.html |
| 17:14:34 | kergoth | hmm |
| 17:14:44 | kergoth | so its murky. wonderful |
| 17:14:45 | kergoth | hehe |
| 17:15:39 | sjohnson | Submitting code doesn't mean that your give up your copyright. That requires an explicit declaration that your are turning over your copyright. |
| 17:15:48 | BigBoss | you know why the GPL has never gone to court? |
| 17:15:55 | mark_ | BigBoss: why? |
| 17:16:01 | BigBoss | because it would fail and the whole house of cards would collapse |
| 17:16:11 | kergoth | why would it fail? |
| 17:16:14 | BigBoss | the GPL is really funky in places |
| 17:16:15 | mark_ | sjohnson: okay. in that case, there is GPL code in Qtopia. now what? |
| 17:16:32 | BigBoss | every attorney I've talked to about it that has no interest in it otherwise, says it's not enforceable |
| 17:16:47 | bipolar | BigBoss: I doubt that. You still have copyright. The authors still have the right to say what can be done with their work. |
| 17:17:03 | sjohnson | mark_: Then the code is submit under the GPL license. |
| 17:17:05 | BigBoss | think about the fall out though |
| 17:17:11 | mark_ | sjohnson: they are now gonna release it under GPL and QPL. ljp (it seems to me) is having his copyright stolen |
| 17:17:27 | bipolar | BigBoss: Of cource no lawyer is going to touch it. There is no money in it. :) |
| 17:17:29 | BigBoss | the FSF is never going to take it to court, they are going to use the court of public opinion to continue to enforce it |
| 17:17:35 | xxL | here: http://www.trolltech.com/developer/licensing/qpl-annotated.html |
| 17:17:42 | xxL | You may license your patch any way you see fit, but note that when distributed in a binary form of Qt, it must be licensed under the QPL - this is explained in section 4. |
| 17:17:48 | xxL | This clause makes it possible for Trolltech to include patches in new versions of Qt. It also means that the same patches can be included in the Qt Professional Edition, but Trolltech are in turn required to ensure that those changes are in both versions. |
| 17:17:58 | xxL | </quote> |
| 17:18:10 | sjohnson | mark_: His copyright can't be stolen. If he wanted to play dirty he would bring bring suit for copyright infringement. |
| 17:18:45 | mark_ | sjohnson: okay, infringed then. but it looks like he has had his copyright infringed.... |
| 17:19:03 | mark_ | xxL: that wasn't made clear to him when he submitted the patch |
| 17:19:26 | bipolar | Where does it say that Qtopia is covered by QPL? |
| 17:19:28 | xxL | mark_: because he never rtf'd the patch sumbission policy |
| 17:19:28 | BigBoss | mark_: it was his responsibility to understand the terms under which he was submitting |
| 17:19:40 | xxL | BB is right |
| 17:19:40 | BigBoss | that is his problem, not Trolltechs |
| 17:19:48 | sjohnson | mark_: It's up to him to make the decision. But I bet that both side would come to some kind ofsettlement. |
| 17:19:54 | BigBoss | Qtopia is dual licensed |
| 17:20:00 | mark_ | is it? he sends a patch to a mailing list. thats all he has done. |
| 17:20:05 | BigBoss | and this is where it is confusing |
| 17:20:13 | bipolar | The sourceforge project only says CVS |
| 17:20:19 | BigBoss | it is his responsibility to understand the implications of what he has done |
| 17:20:20 | bipolar | er.... GPL... |
| 17:20:29 | bipolar | hehe... to many acromyms |
| 17:20:34 | mark_ | bipolar: yes, it does |
| 17:20:46 | BigBoss | for example, we can sell closed software that runs on Opie, which is GPL |
| 17:20:56 | BigBoss | this is by virtue of the fact that we own a Qt license |
| 17:21:05 | bipolar | I've not seen any documentation that says that Qtopia is dual licenced. |
| 17:21:07 | BigBoss | since the Qt library is identical, the difference is that we own a license |
| 17:21:10 | bipolar | Where is it. |
| 17:21:14 | bipolar | I want to see that. |
| 17:21:21 | BigBoss | go find it then :) |
| 17:21:37 | bipolar | It's not in the code. Its not on the website. Everything says GPL. |
| 17:21:40 | mark_ | BigBoss: you are taking Qt/e as QPL when you are doing that |
| 17:22:11 | mark_ | BigBoss: TT should have made it clear what was happening before they put that patch in their tree |
| 17:22:39 | xxL | mark_: that is unreasonable |
| 17:23:07 | bipolar | here is something.... |
| 17:23:13 | BigBoss | mark: I get this kind of argument from people every once in a while that buy our software that want their money back because it doesn't have some feature that they think is critical |
| 17:23:27 | BigBoss | well, all of our software is available as a demo, and we have a stated refund policy right on the products page |
| 17:23:36 | mark_ | as far as ljp was concerned, he was submitting a GPL patch to a GPL project |
| 17:23:41 | mark_ | bipolar: what you found? |
| 17:23:42 | BigBoss | it is their responsibility to see if the software does what they want and to understand their rights |
| 17:23:48 | BigBoss | we can't spoon feed it to them |
| 17:24:23 | bipolar | mark_: it seems that some of the files (qprocess.*) in opie are actualy from QT/e, and they have a line about the dual licence in them. |
| 17:24:24 | BigBoss | this is a similar situation - unless of course the information is no where to be found, then TT was negligent and you could pursue that |
| 17:24:37 | mark_ | bipolar: and apart from that? |
| 17:24:54 | bipolar | mark_: nothing. |
| 17:25:03 | mark_ | Warwick has gone round 'fixing copyright headers' |
| 17:25:23 | bipolar | mark_: grep -r opie |
| 17:25:26 | mark_ | oh thats just QtPalmtop -> Qtopia |
| 17:25:58 | bipolar | mark_: look at the headder on opie/library/qprocess.cpp |
| 17:26:23 | BigBoss | now if you can't find the disclosure in a sane location, then I would totally raise hell with TT |
| 17:26:33 | mark_ | BigBoss: its no where |
| 17:26:40 | mark_ | apart from qprocess |
| 17:26:47 | bipolar | The only place I find anything about QPL is in the QT/e code. |
| 17:26:54 | mark_ | qprocess* |
| 17:26:55 | mark_ | yep |
| 17:26:56 | bipolar | Everything else screams GPL |
| 17:27:03 | mark_ | right |
| 17:27:12 | mark_ | it is |
| 17:27:23 | mark_ | i grepped for QPL, nothing apart from qprocess |
| 17:27:31 | bipolar | Qtopia is GPL then. |
| 17:27:42 | mark_ | what about those changes which are just the in the sharp roms then? |
| 17:27:42 | bipolar | It's not dual licensed. |
| 17:27:55 | bipolar | mark_: those are app specific. |
| 17:28:15 | bipolar | mark_: Some apps are written by sharp |
| 17:28:23 | mark_ | bipolar: they have changed todo for example, which is GPL and haven't released their chagnes |
| 17:28:42 | BigBoss | they don't have to release their changes |
| 17:28:48 | BigBoss | they only have to disclose how to get it |
| 17:28:53 | BigBoss | and they can charge for it if they want |
| 17:29:03 | BigBoss | but you should really complain to TT then about the licensing |
| 17:29:16 | sjohnson | BigBoss: If code is GPL and they distribute, they have to relase their changes. |
| 17:29:22 | mark_ | BigBoss: huh? if something is GPL any modifications have to be released |
| 17:29:24 | bipolar | mark_: they should then, unless they have all the people that coded for it to relicence it. |
| 17:29:42 | bipolar | mark_: It might me all TT with that app. |
| 17:29:48 | bipolar | s/me/be |
| 17:30:08 | mark_ | if they own the copyright they don't have to released changes even though its GPL? |
| 17:30:23 | bipolar | mark_: no. |
| 17:30:28 | BigBoss | no, if something is GPL you don't have to release the code |
| 17:30:33 | mark_ | okay |
| 17:30:34 | BigBoss | I've been through this with RMS |
| 17:30:43 | mark_ | and if sharp make changes? |
| 17:30:52 | BigBoss | you only have to make notice of how to acquire the source |
| 17:31:20 | weimer | Fastolfe: Just send you the best ipaq picture we have. |
| 17:31:31 | mark_ | BigBoss: which they haven't done |
| 17:32:10 | bipolar | mark_: they may have rewritten apps. They are not all GPL. |
| 17:32:19 | sjohnson | BigBoss: That's really what I mwant. I think of releasing code as making it avaible my some method. |
| 17:32:34 | mark_ | bipolar: todolist is. |
| 17:32:49 | bipolar | mark_: are you sure they did not rewrite it? |
| 17:33:14 | mark_ | bipolar: pretty darn sure. its modified, not rewritten |
| 17:33:45 | bipolar | mark_: then they should be asked about it. |
| 17:33:47 | kergoth | just got off a support call |
| 17:33:50 | kergoth | scrolls up |
| 17:33:58 | mark_ | kergoth: you've got a lot of reading :) |
| 17:34:26 | bipolar | kergoth: the short of it is that Qtopia is not QPL, it's all GPL. |
| 17:34:35 | kergoth | err |
| 17:34:46 | kergoth | bipolar: want to review how we came to that conclusion? |
| 17:35:00 | bipolar | kergoth: "grep -r QPL opie" |
| 17:35:01 | mark_ | kergoth: QPL isn't mentioned anywhere apart from qprocess sources |
| 17:35:24 | xxL | mark_: is GPL mentioned in there, tho ? |
| 17:35:29 | bipolar | kergoth: there is no mention of any licence other then GPL on the Qtopia project page. |
| 17:35:30 | mark_ | xxL: yes |
| 17:35:38 | mark_ | xxL: in every source |
| 17:35:38 | kergoth | hmm interesting |
| 17:35:49 | kergoth | "The freely downloadable version of Qtopia is provided with no support and no warranty. It is provided under the GNU General Public License, GPL. It may only be used in conjunction with the GPL version of Qt/Embedded." |
| 17:36:06 | kergoth | so its qt/e thats the key, not qtopia itself? |
| 17:36:19 | xxL | mark_: are you aware of the fact that TT, as copyright holders, *can* release the same sources under multiple licenses ? |
| 17:36:26 | mark_ | xxL: yes, but they haven't |
| 17:36:38 | BigBoss | umm - they don't have to put the qpl license in the gpl code that is out there |
| 17:36:38 | xxL | mark_: yes they did |
| 17:36:49 | mark_ | where does anything say that? |
| 17:36:51 | kergoth | xxL: they did? |
| 17:36:51 | bipolar | xxL: What about code that was submitted by others under the GPL? |
| 17:37:03 | BigBoss | there are two issues here |
| 17:37:06 | xxL | we (theKompany) are using the QPL-licensed libqpe |
| 17:37:21 | kergoth | "Conditions, prices, and license for commercial use of Qtopia are available from sales@trolltech.com." |
| 17:37:21 | BigBoss | 1. Disclosure that patches are Borged into the QPL |
| 17:37:23 | xxL | otherwise we wouldn't be able to sell our commercial apps |
| 17:37:33 | BigBoss | 2. The license in Qtopia/Qt/E |
| 17:37:56 | bipolar | xxL: I thought that was all about the QT/e licence? |
| 17:37:58 | kergoth | so the freely downloadable version of qtopia is gpl only |
| 17:38:04 | kergoth | qtopia as an entity is available under both |
| 17:38:06 | kergoth | correct? |
| 17:38:12 | mark_ | kergoth: so it seems |
| 17:38:14 | BigBoss | right |
| 17:38:22 | BigBoss | the gpl version doesn't have to disclose another license |
| 17:38:23 | xxL | bipolar: no. a Qtopia app links against both qte and qpe, right ? |
| 17:38:44 | mark_ | BigBoss: okay. ljp has submitted a patch to the GPL version then. |
| 17:38:46 | bipolar | xxL: Right, but why could you not use the GPL libqpe? |
| 17:39:01 | xxL | bipolar: becuase then you would have to make your app GPL |
| 17:39:05 | kergoth | bipolar: its gpl, not lgpl |
| 17:39:06 | mark_ | bipolar: coz GPL stops them selling apps |
| 17:39:07 | mandrake | bipolar: it's illegal to link a commercial app against a GPL library. |
| 17:39:18 | kergoth | heh |
| 17:39:20 | xxL | mandrake: wrong |
| 17:39:21 | mandrake | well, without giving away the source code under the GPL |
| 17:39:40 | mandrake | xxL: according to RMS this is the case. I can't link my bsd licensed apps against GPL libraries for this reason, too |
| 17:39:45 | bipolar | mandrake: huh? |
| 17:39:53 | whardier | do fish get overweight? |
| 17:39:58 | bipolar | mandrake: I don't remember that. |
| 17:39:59 | BigBoss | mandrake: the difference is that we own a commercial license |
| 17:39:59 | mandrake | GPL libraries are viral. |
| 17:40:04 | kergoth | bipolar: you cant link against a gpl library without making your app gpl. |
| 17:40:07 | BigBoss | this makes the library the commercial version for us |
| 17:40:21 | xxL | mandrake: depends on what you mean with "commercial". GPL is not about commercial or not. it's about free (as in speech) software |
| 17:40:42 | BigBoss | mark: do you know that TT incorporated ljp's patch into their base code? |
| 17:40:58 | mandrake | xxL: it's about different licensing. I cannot link a BSD (free software) app against a GPL (free software) library. |
| 17:41:01 | mark_ | BigBoss: you running the latest rom image? |
| 17:41:07 | mandrake | xxL: that is straight from the asses mouth. |
| 17:41:08 | mark_ | BigBoss: (no, I don't yet) |
| 17:41:14 | BigBoss | mark: no |
| 17:41:23 | kergoth | BigBoss: we only know that they incorporated the fix, not necessarily that they used his code. they couldve written the fix from scratch |
| 17:41:25 | mark_ | anyone running the latest rom image on their Z? (this is important) |
| 17:41:36 | mark_ | kergoth: oh thats a good point |
| 17:41:36 | mandrake | I CAN link against LGPL though. |
| 17:41:39 | xxL | mandrake: err, BSD is *not* free software. it is open source software |
| 17:41:45 | mark_ | kergoth: we can't tell if they have done that or used his code though |
| 17:41:50 | mandrake | xxL: BSD license is more free than GPL. |
| 17:41:53 | kergoth | mark_: precisely |
| 17:41:53 | xxL | check fsf.org for their definition for *free* |
| 17:42:07 | BigBoss | may RMS burn in hell for his stupid use of the word FREE |
| 17:42:18 | mandrake | and I don't have a high opinion of RMS, and haven't since I met him in 98. |
| 17:42:34 | mandrake | the GPL is a very wrong license. |
| 17:42:53 | mandrake | after I talked to RMS I immediately changed all my licensing away from GPL to BSD-style |
| 17:43:29 | IPmonger | mandrake: why? |
| 17:43:38 | mandrake | GPL is too restrictive. |
| 17:43:43 | mark_ | kergoth: but there is no point us submitting patches then. if they wanted to do it, they'd have done it anywya |
| 17:43:43 | mandrake | (first off) |
| 17:43:47 | xxL | GPL is braindead |
| 17:43:58 | kergoth | ive never met rms, but he strikes me as a fanatic. |
| 17:44:10 | BigBoss | He is a fanatic - total communist |
| 17:44:11 | kergoth | mark_: yep. |
| 17:44:12 | bipolar | How does this differ from binary only kernel modules? |
| 17:44:12 | mandrake | GPL for libraries is just plain evil. LGPL is appropriate for libraries that you want to actually be used. |
| 17:44:24 | BigBoss | I won't use the GPL anymore, but we've still got some GPL stuff |
| 17:44:27 | mandrake | bipolar: kernel has dual licensing |
| 17:44:41 | bipolar | mandrake: Really.... LGPL? |
| 17:44:43 | xxL | mandrake: wrong. the kernel is only GPL |
| 17:44:59 | mark_ | kergoth: so we're back to our competing state |
| 17:45:00 | bipolar | xxL: so how do they do that? |
| 17:45:18 | xxL | however, Linus added a clause that allows binary modules. RMS said it's ok in this case |
| 17:45:29 | bipolar | ahh |
| 17:45:41 | kergoth | ah, explicit exception to the rule. that makes more snese |
| 17:45:42 | kergoth | mark_: yep. |
| 17:45:55 | mark_ | kernel is GPL. so a commercial app can not use random.h? |
| 17:45:58 | mandrake | damned mozilla nightly. |
| 17:46:09 | mandrake | they've been broken for several days now. |
| 17:46:09 | xxL | yes, GPL has a few exceptions related to "system software" |
| 17:46:23 | kergoth | mark_: as someone said regarding the way kde handles it, if tt wants equivalent functionality, they can implement it their damn selves. heh |
| 17:46:34 | bipolar | fuh.... |
| 17:46:35 | mark_ | kergoth: :) |
| 17:46:43 | bipolar | Here comes libOpie.so |
| 17:46:46 | kergoth | lol |
| 17:46:47 | bipolar | shit |
| 17:46:58 | kergoth | we should be able to retain compatibility, bipolar |
| 17:47:05 | mark_ | bipolar: apt word :) |
| 17:47:07 | xxL | mark_: when your app uses random.h it links against libc (which is LGPL), not against the kernel |
| 17:47:09 | bipolar | kergoth: sure |
| 17:47:30 | whardier | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0933884184/qid=1014313710/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/103-9830769-0314234 |
| 17:47:38 | kergoth | mark_: your app shouldnt be using kernel shit anyway |
| 17:47:50 | mark_ | kergoth: it was a hypothetical point :) |
| 17:47:55 | kergoth | whardier: haha |
| 17:48:02 | kergoth | mark_: :-) |
| 17:48:03 | whardier | http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y04X0537914X4878303/103-9830769-0314234 |
| 17:48:31 | mark_ | whardier: they rock |
| 17:48:54 | whardier | mark_ have you played with one? |
| 17:49:09 | mark_ | whardier: no :(, but they look so cool |
| 17:49:58 | kergoth | bipolar, mark_: shall we do a writeup on how licensing is affecting the philosophy and direction of the opie project? |
| 17:50:20 | bipolar | kergoth: what you mean we pale face... |
| 17:50:27 | mark_ | kergoth: you seem to like writing this up like no other :) |
| 17:50:34 | kergoth | hah |
| 17:50:37 | BigBoss | http://www.warrguitars.com/ |
| 17:50:44 | mark_ | kergoth: s/this/things |
| 17:50:47 | kergoth | the fact that i see something needs to be done doesnt necessarily mean i want to do it, damnit |
| 17:50:48 | BigBoss | this is what I've been learning for the last year or two |
| 17:50:48 | kergoth | :-P |
| 17:50:53 | mark_ | kergoth: hehe |
| 17:59:13 | Neo|Work | Hmm. Perhaps using webcollage as a screensaver as work isn't the best of ideas |
| 18:01:14 | whardier | augh |
| 18:01:16 | whardier | sorry |
| 18:04:43 | mark_ | xxL: if we rewrite library/ as LGPL, would you link against that? |
| 18:07:40 | xxL | mark_: I thought you'd never ask :) |
| 18:08:10 | mark_ | xxL: its looking like this is what we are gonna have to do ;( |
| 18:08:24 | xxL | yes, a LGPL library would be more attractive to both closed and open source developers |
| 18:08:37 | mark_ | xxL: you wont have to pay license costs |
| 18:08:42 | kergoth | xxL: k, we'll just break compatibility with qtopia then. fun fun. |
| 18:08:43 | kergoth | hehe |
| 18:09:02 | xxL | kergoth: why ? |
| 18:09:17 | mark_ | we need to rewrite that library while staying BC. fsck fsck fsck |
| 18:09:48 | xxL | mark_: more, rewriting libqpe is a *huge* overtake, IMO |
| 18:10:01 | kergoth | xxL: well rewriting it will be massive, and a pain, and nearly impossible to retain BC |
| 18:10:07 | Neo|Work | and being binary compatible means having the exact sizes for all classes correctly |
| 18:10:13 | Neo|Work | and such fun stuff |
| 18:10:17 | mark_ | Neo|Work: does it? |
| 18:10:36 | mark_ | Neo|Work: i thought it was just the order |
| 18:10:56 | mark_ | Neo|Work: order, signature, access rights, data members, class hierarchy |
| 18:11:23 | xxL | order ? |
| 18:11:39 | mark_ | Neo|Work: order of decleration ofvirtual functions |
| 18:11:47 | xxL | right |
| 18:12:16 | mark_ | and we can't even look at their source in the rewrite |
| 18:13:45 | kergoth | bangs head against wall |
| 18:14:04 | mark_ | anyone want to sponser a LGPL libqpe? |
| 18:14:29 | kergoth | s/libqpe/libopie/ |
| 18:14:31 | kergoth | :-P |
| 18:16:53 | scanline | is back (gone 01:30:03) |
| 18:17:12 | xxL | mark_, kergoth: can you do better spagetti than TT ? |
| 18:17:17 | xxL | code, that is... |
| 18:17:22 | kergoth | xxL: lol |
| 18:17:52 | Neo|Work | mark_: if the classes doesn't use the same storage space, it'll break.. |
| 18:17:56 | xxL | kergoth: you'd be crying if you were me |
| 18:18:14 | mark_ | Neo|Work: its almost impossible then |
| 18:18:19 | kergoth | most likely we'll have to completely lose compatibility |
| 18:18:34 | kergoth | and provide an easy way for developers to produce binaries for both opie and qtopia for those that want it |
| 18:18:36 | kergoth | blah |
| 18:18:41 | mark_ | fsck fsck fsck |
| 18:18:42 | Neo|Work | mark_: right |
| 18:18:59 | Neo|Work | kergoth: it might be less than horrible if you're code compatible but not binary compatible |
| 18:19:05 | mark_ | if i look at the source to see the internals am I doing something illegal? |
| 18:19:10 | Neo|Work | I mean, it'll be a pain in the neck but it will at least not be the end of the world |
| 18:19:11 | mark_ | Neo|Work: we'll get code compatible |
| 18:19:12 | kergoth | Neo|Work: yep |
| 18:19:17 | kergoth | shoots self |
| 18:19:23 | BigBoss | so is the license questions all resolved now? :) |
| 18:19:38 | kergoth | yeah, we've determined that we're thoroughly fucked |
| 18:19:39 | kergoth | hehe |
| 18:19:41 | mandrake | kergoth: if you are not binary compatible you will probably lose users. |
| 18:19:51 | Neo|Work | mark_: well, one thing that's good from a compat library is that Qt in general use private storage structs allocated dynamically |
| 18:20:05 | kergoth | mandrake: most likely. |
| 18:20:15 | Neo|Work | that means that all "private" data is stored in one pointer, allowing for complete modification of it w/o breaking the binary compatibility |
| 18:20:29 | BigBoss | you're talking about forking? |
| 18:20:31 | BigBoss | or rewriting? |
| 18:20:32 | kergoth | we either lose BC and lose users, or let developers link against qtopia and trust that they'll work under opie, but that limits our competittiveness with qtopia |
| 18:20:33 | Neo|Work | from that point of view, making a compatible version is easy |
| 18:20:39 | Neo|Work | BigBoss: rewriting |
| 18:20:48 | BigBoss | what's the point? |
| 18:20:49 | mark_ | rewriting and improving while retaining BC |
| 18:21:02 | kergoth | BigBoss: we either leave it as you linking against qtopia but working in opie, or we rewrite libqpe to release it under lgpl, because then you could link against our library |
| 18:21:06 | kergoth | heh |
| 18:21:15 | Neo|Work | kergoth: the benefit is that your improvements could also use the private data structures to add functionality w/o breaking binary compatibility |
| 18:21:25 | BigBoss | seriously, I don't see why you need to do it |
| 18:21:50 | mark_ | BigBoss: if our patches aren't gonna go into Qtopia - then we are gonna have to compete with them |
| 18:21:55 | BigBoss | I actually spent 3 days on this conversation last week and we finally figured it all out. I even talked to Trolltech about it to clear up some points |
| 18:22:07 | BigBoss | commercial qtopia or gpl qtopia? |
| 18:22:23 | BigBoss | what are you competing with? are you making this a company? I'm missing a basic premise here |
| 18:22:37 | mark_ | BigBoss: well, if TT dont want to rewrite what we do, our changes wont make it into either |
| 18:22:38 | kergoth | BigBoss: dont ya hate walking into a discussion int he middle? :-) |
| 18:22:41 | BigBoss | and I also might have to leave suddenly, but I'm happy to help in the conversation as long as I can |
| 18:22:44 | BigBoss | oh yea, it sucks |
| 18:22:51 | BigBoss | freaking windows crashed for the third time today |
| 18:23:07 | BigBoss | but all my email is still in Eudora |
| 18:23:13 | kergoth | 1) our patches wont make it into qtopia (either gpl or commercial) unless we give up our copyright so TT can put it in the commercial version (assumption). |
| 18:23:25 | kergoth | 2) given that, we're essentially competing with qtopia (opie is) |
| 18:23:47 | kergoth | 3) our ability to compete is hindered by the fact that commercial app vendors that are closed source must link against qtopia's library, not ours |
| 18:24:08 | Neo|Work | kergoth: do you have anything special against #1? |
| 18:24:15 | kergoth | 4) in conclusion, we either accept that hindrance and retain BC, or we rewrite the library so we can relicense it to try to truly compete against qtopia |
| 18:24:27 | xxL | neo: that's what I was about to ask, too |
| 18:24:27 | kergoth | Neo|Work: most of the developers likely wont give up their rights to their code |
| 18:24:36 | mark_ | kergoth: will you? |
| 18:25:05 | mandrake | kergoth: I'd be willing to give up my rights to the code for the improvements, personally. |
| 18:25:06 | ljp_work | I don't mind if its only oneinsy virtual funtion that returns almost as quick as a lick |
| 18:25:08 | Neo|Work | is away: meeting |
| 18:25:13 | BigBoss | ok, give me a moment to comment |
| 18:25:21 | kergoth | BigBoss: k |
| 18:25:26 | kergoth | hmm |
| 18:25:32 | ljp_work | but if it's a large improvement.. nope |
| 18:25:41 | BigBoss | 1. Get it clear with TT and decide if it is really an issue |
| 18:25:53 | BigBoss | 2. Why compete? Are you selling something? |
| 18:26:11 | ljp_work | ya-- our bodies |
| 18:26:16 | kergoth | lol |
| 18:26:18 | BigBoss | 3. It doesn't affect someone like us because we *own* a Qt license - it's our ownership that allows our code to run on the Opie platform |
| 18:26:35 | BigBoss | We can't stop someone from deploying our software on an Opie enabled device |
| 18:26:51 | BigBoss | now we might have a problem with bundling on it, because that is different |
| 18:27:05 | BigBoss | I gotta run now, but xxl is the one I spent 3 days talking about all this with. |
| 18:27:10 | kergoth | k |
| 18:27:35 | mandrake | I would be willing to bet that TT won't be out to dick you over for submitting your code to them. |
| 18:27:55 | kergoth | mandrake: but they will need to use that code in the qpl licensed qtopia, right? |
| 18:27:57 | BigBoss | your biggest problem is going to be getting an answer from TT |
| 18:27:58 | mandrake | in many projects that I have steered you're explicitly giving me the copyright to your code if you don't mark it yourself. |
| 18:28:00 | ljp_work | the real question is, though.. will they add our patches? |
| 18:28:22 | mandrake | but I'm not out to screw you over. |
| 18:28:24 | xxL | mandrake: wrong |
| 18:28:54 | xxL | any code that is not explicitely copyrighted belong to the author of the code |
| 18:28:55 | mandrake | xxL: it says in the contributors file that you have to mark your code or the copyright is transferred to me. |
| 18:29:07 | mandrake | i.e. mark your code or don't submit the patch to me. |
| 18:29:23 | xxL | mandrake: than how is that different from TT's policy ? |
| 18:29:34 | xxL | s/than/then |
| 18:29:37 | mandrake | xxL: TT doesnt' want you to mark your code. |
| 18:29:38 | ljp_work | well. do you see anyother copyright in Qt anywhere? |
| 18:29:41 | mandrake | but I don't see it as an issue. |
| 18:29:54 | xxL | ljp_work: actually yes |
| 18:30:18 | ljp_work | example? |
| 18:30:21 | mandrake | but by submitting the patch to the maintainer you're kinda implicitly allowing them to do what they want with it |
| 18:30:56 | xxL | ljp: http://doc.trolltech.com/3.0/licenses.html |
| 18:32:05 | mandrake | xxL: right and I don't see a problem with the way they handled that. |
| 18:32:22 | mandrake | thus I see this whole complaint situation as a non-issue =) |
| 18:33:09 | kergoth | so whats the consensus? we should either submit our patches to TT and relinquish our copyright on said code, or just leave opie as an alternate env, letting qtopia take the front line and commercial apps link against that. ? correct? |
| 18:33:25 | whardier | steal from qtopia |
| 18:33:37 | mandrake | I say you should be working with TT and not against them. |
| 18:33:46 | mandrake | that has been my opinion from the beginning, however. |
| 18:33:48 | ljp_work | I agree w/ mandrake |
| 18:33:49 | xxL | mandrake is almost right |
| 18:34:12 | mandrake | now, if TT will not move quick enough for you, I see the need to have additional modifications |
| 18:34:27 | mandrake | but as long as you're submitting patches to the main system back to TT I don't see a problem |
| 18:34:48 | ljp_work | cvs commit is pretty fast compared to email, and wait-n-see |
| 18:35:03 | kergoth | mandrake: i agree, however that'll reduce our pool of talent, as some wont want to lose control of their code. |
| 18:35:06 | kergoth | sup BZFlag |
| 18:35:21 | mandrake | kergoth: then it's up to you whether you want programmers or users. |
| 18:35:57 | xxL | the only reason I would write a qpe replacement for is that I believe I can do better. Otherwise I'd just contribute to qpe and give up my copyright to them |
| 18:36:07 | mandrake | I would be more inclined to work on something that was folded back into the primary distribution, honestly. |
| 18:36:35 | mark_ | xxL: we can do better |
| 18:36:45 | xxL | mark_: can you ? |
| 18:37:00 | kergoth | hmm perhaps we should replace the applications, which we know we can do better on, and let them handle the library? |
| 18:37:02 | ljp_work | ya.. but by rewriting you are setting opie back quite a bit |
| 18:37:12 | kergoth | 'quite a bit' = understatement |
| 18:37:14 | mark_ | xxL: i dunno :) - but there are some definate shortcommings in libqpe |
| 18:37:17 | xxL | as BB said before, he and I have been through this last week |
| 18:37:22 | mark_ | its 30,000 lines of code |
| 18:38:13 | xxL | my estimatiom at that time was (4 developers + 1 artist)*~500hours to come up with a qpe replacement that would blow your brains off |
| 18:38:13 | mandrake | sure there are shortcomings in qpe, but there will always be shortcomings. |
| 18:38:32 | kergoth | well, I vote we focus on a solid set of applications, and any library changes we submit to trolltech and thereby relinquish our copyright on said submitted changes. |
| 18:38:33 | mark_ | so if we submit a patch, and give TT rights to it, they can put it straight into the commercial version? |
| 18:38:44 | kergoth | mark_: yes |
| 18:38:45 | mandrake | mark_: yup. if they chose to. |
| 18:38:54 | mark_ | but they wont necessarily |
| 18:39:02 | mandrake | mark_: they do have that power as the maintainers. |
| 18:39:23 | mark_ | mandrake: of course they do, but if we want to do things in our apps which require library changes and they dont accept them we are stuffed |
| 18:39:42 | mandrake | mark_: make your own additional libraries then. |
| 18:39:49 | xxL | right |
| 18:39:52 | kergoth | agreed. |
| 18:40:29 | mark_ | it means commercial devels can't benefit from our changes unless tt do accept them |
| 18:40:36 | kergoth | mark_: yeah they can |
| 18:40:38 | mandrake | why not? |
| 18:40:45 | mandrake | LGPL your libraries. |
| 18:40:46 | kergoth | mark_: our additional libraries can be lgpl.. whatever we want them to be |
| 18:40:48 | kergoth | exactly |
| 18:40:49 | mandrake | make them accessable. |
| 18:40:50 | xxL | kergoth: no they can't |
| 18:40:51 | mark_ | kergoth: oh if they go in an additional library they can |
| 18:41:04 | kergoth | xxL: ? |
| 18:41:15 | nelson | BZFlag: hey. |
| 18:41:19 | xxL | unless you're not linking against qte and qpe at all |
| 18:41:37 | nelson | BZFlag: any news on a Zaurus BLOB? |
| 18:41:38 | mark_ | xxL: so we can't write a LGPL library which links against qte? |
| 18:41:43 | xxL | nope |
| 18:41:43 | kergoth | xxL: why? commercial apps can use our changes along with them as long as they have the commercial license from TT |
| 18:41:53 | mandrake | xxL: iirc you can make lgpl libraries that sit with gpl libraries. |
| 18:42:02 | mark_ | xxL: you 100% sure about that? |
| 18:42:09 | xxL | mandrake: you sure ??? |
| 18:42:12 | mandrake | xxL: pretty. |
| 18:42:25 | xxL | madrake: proof ? |
| 18:42:30 | mandrake | xxL: it's one of the things RMS was pissed about and why he renamed it the 'lesser' instead of 'library' gpl |
| 18:42:41 | mandrake | xxL: there are tons of gnome apps that link against both gpl and lgpl libraries. |
| 18:42:46 | mandrake | xxL: libart, for example. |
| 18:42:59 | kergoth | mandrake: but actually doesnt this involve whether or not the QPL will permit the app to also link in lgpl libraries? |
| 18:42:59 | mark_ | mandrake: thats not the same thing is it? |
| 18:43:17 | xxL | mandrake: I seriously doubt it. |
| 18:43:19 | nelson | mandrake: what do you mean "that sit with"? |
| 18:43:20 | mark_ | we want our lGPL library to be able to link against a GPL library |
| 18:43:26 | mark_ | i'd be suprised if you could do that |
| 18:43:29 | xxL | otherwise you'd end up having a *huge* loophole in GPL |
| 18:43:32 | mark_ | if you could, it'd be an easy way around the gpl |
| 18:43:34 | mandrake | xxL: I don't. raph made libart, it's GPL. there are lgpl libraries which depend on it. |
| 18:43:48 | mark_ | xxL: precisely, you would just write a lGPL wrapper library and ur done |
| 18:43:49 | mandrake | xxL: you can get a commercial license to use libart however, also. |
| 18:44:01 | mandrake | xxL: which allows you to write a commercial gnome application that uses libart. |
| 18:44:10 | nelson | mandrake: s/commercial/proprietary/ |
| 18:44:14 | mandrake | okay |
| 18:44:17 | mandrake | proprietary |
| 18:44:19 | nelson | mandrake: Red Hat is commercial. |
| 18:44:38 | xxL | mandrake: in that case the lgpl libraries linking against libart are using the commercial license actually |
| 18:44:40 | mandrake | xxL: this is how raph makes money. |
| 18:45:05 | nelson | xxL: think of lgpl as "BSD, but you have to supply source *for the library*" |
| 18:45:13 | mandrake | xxL: right. and when I build my propreitary app I'm linking against hte proprietary Qt/E and such. |
| 18:45:35 | mandrake | and I have a license explicitly granted from trolltech for doing this. |
| 18:46:02 | fusion94 | the GPL is bad |
| 18:46:06 | xxL | mandrake: some relevant pieces got lost in the process |
| 18:46:07 | mandrake | fusion94: yes, it is. |
| 18:46:14 | kergoth | so the proprietary developer already possesses a license from TT, so can go ahead and use our lgpl additional library |
| 18:46:21 | fusion94 | and RMS is a nutcase |
| 18:46:23 | mandrake | kergoth: bingo. |
| 18:46:32 | mandrake | hence why there is no issue. |
| 18:46:35 | mark_ | kergoth: that works nicely actually |
| 18:46:37 | kergoth | mandrake: gotcha |
| 18:46:39 | nelson | fusion94: no, the GPL is *good*. You use it when you want to restrict your software to non-proprietary uses, so that you can sell licenses to proprietary users. |
| 18:46:41 | kergoth | yes it does |
| 18:46:47 | xxL | again: you cannot have a lgpgl library to link against a gpl one |
| 18:46:55 | nelson | xxL: again: you can. |
| 18:46:56 | mandrake | xxL: yes, you can. |
| 18:47:03 | mandrake | xxL: and the FSF distributes some of these. |
| 18:47:09 | kergoth | xxL: well, in this case its a moot point because it'll link against the QPL libqpe |
| 18:47:11 | mandrake | (or the GNU project rather) |
| 18:47:26 | mandrake | xxL: I don't know where you came up with this madness. |
| 18:47:31 | mark_ | kergoth: we dont have Qpl libqpe |
| 18:47:38 | kergoth | mark_: so? |
| 18:48:29 | mandrake | xxL: glibc is also lgpl |
| 18:48:29 | kergoth | mark_: the proprietary developer who links against our lib will |
| 18:48:29 | mark_ | kergoth: 'i'll link it against the qpl libqpe' |
| 18:48:29 | mandrake | so if you had a gpl library in any of your applications suddenly you can't link against it? |
| 18:48:29 | xxL | mandrake: asuming you are right, I could write a LGPL wrapper around libqpe and avoid paying commercial licenses to TT ? |
| 18:48:38 | mandrake | xxL: no, you're misunderstanding me. |
| 18:49:08 | xxL | why ? isn't that what you said ? "you can have lgpgl libraries linking against gpl ones" |
| 18:49:14 | nelson | xxL: that would be violating TT's liciense, very likely (I haven't read it lately) |
| 18:49:22 | mandrake | you have to have a license for what you're doing. |
| 18:49:27 | xxL | nelson: in which way, exactly ? |
| 18:49:48 | mandrake | and wrapping libqpe means you still have to listen to libqpe's license. |
| 18:49:49 | xxL | because I won't be linking against libqpe |
| 18:49:50 | nelson | xxL: if you want to write a proprietary application that comes without source?? LInked against GPL'ed code?? |
| 18:49:56 | mandrake | xxL: yes you will. |
| 18:50:07 | xxL | mandrake: no shit ? |
| 18:50:09 | nelson | xxL: are you arguing that dynamic linking isn't creating a derived work? |
| 18:50:11 | mandrake | xxL: unless somehow you think that -lqpe doesn't count |
| 18:50:41 | xxL | mandrake: if I write a wrapper I won't have to -lqpe my app. that's the whole point here |
| 18:50:54 | mandrake | xxL: but you can most certainly use both gpl and lgpl libraries together. |
| 18:51:01 | nelson | xxL: are you arguing that dynamic linkiing isn't creating a derived work? |
| 18:51:06 | mandrake | and an lgpl library can most certainly depend on a gpl library |
| 18:51:09 | mandrake | and vice versa. |
| 18:51:20 | xxL | mandrake: I never said you can't use both gpl and lgpl libraries |
| 18:51:37 | mandrake | having an additional library that new applications require is perfectly acceptable situation |
| 18:51:39 | mandrake | and that library can be lgpl |
| 18:51:58 | mandrake | and then new proprietary applications built against the proprietary qpe can use it |
| 18:52:05 | mandrake | and take advantage of the new features |
| 18:52:09 | xxL | nelson: actuall I'm arguing thet dynamic linking *does* create a derived work. It's mandrake claiming the other way around |
| 18:52:09 | mandrake | and then you don't lose any users |
| 18:52:13 | mandrake | and you are not wasting your time |
| 18:52:18 | scanline | is away: oops, another class... |
| 18:52:26 | mandrake | xxL: no apparently you are misunderstanding what I am saying. |
| 18:53:06 | xxL | looks like the whole conversation is a huge missunderstanding |
| 18:53:38 | mandrake | I am talking about building a seperate library with the feature these people may choose to want to add to qpe INSTEAD of replacing qpe. |
| 18:53:44 | nelson | xxL: it's not clear that dynamic linking creates a derived work. People who make GPL'ed dynamic libraries are hoping that nobody ever creates another non-GPL'ed library which is compatible. |
| 18:53:45 | mandrake | s/feature/features/ |
| 18:54:32 | xxL | mandrake: right, but this new library would depend on libqpe |
| 18:54:52 | mandrake | xxL: and since I have a license from trolltech for qpe that is not GPL, then it's irrelevant. |
| 18:55:06 | nelson | xxL: what is the difference between making calls into the kernel and making calls into a library? |
| 18:55:19 | mark_ | got dc. where are we at now? |
| 18:55:48 | xxL | nelson: you make calls into the kernel through a library, and never directly |
| 18:56:12 | xxL | nelson: when was the last time you saw an app linking against liblinux.so ? :) |
| 18:56:58 | mandrake | xxL: otherwise, those of us selling proprietary apps that run on QPE currently (with the license we have from trolltech) are breaking the law. |
| 18:57:15 | xxL | mandrake: huh ? |
| 18:57:23 | nelson | xxL: right. And nobody says that the license on that library applies to the program. So why should a dynamically-linked GPL'd license apply? |
| 18:57:42 | mandrake | nelson: I agree with the derived works thing that xxL is saying, actually. |
| 18:58:01 | mandrake | what I am saying is that since people selling proprietary apps on qpe have a seperate license for using these libraries from trolltech it's a moot point. |
| 18:58:09 | xxL | nelson: you didn't get my joke. liblinux.so doesn't exist, you're using libc to make calls to the kernel and libc is lgpl |
| 18:59:59 | mandrake | thus if I sell you a license to use the app I built for QPE (like what the theKompany does) then even though your license to do things with QPE is GPL mine is not so my app still is legal. |
| 19:00:14 | Kopsis | mandrake: I'm not so sure it is a moot point ... step back and think about distribution of the supplemental lib ... |
| 19:00:24 | Com[Plx | does anyone here know how to make a linux laptop sleep? and stay slept for as long as I want it to... |
| 19:00:26 | xxL | mandrake: agree |
| 19:00:32 | Com[Plx | this one keeps powering itsaelf back on. |
| 19:00:52 | mandrake | Kopsis: that isn't a legal issue however. |
| 19:01:01 | Kopsis | If the library itself is linked against GPL qpe then it has to be distributed under GPL (not LGPL) |
| 19:01:26 | xxL | ComPlx: the first good step would be to try a more appropriate irc channel. this one has a completely different topic :) |
| 19:01:26 | Kopsis | Any apps that link against a GPL library have to be GPL. |
| 19:01:28 | mandrake | Kopsis: but once again, I have a license from trolltech for my app, and I built it against hte non-gpl one. |
| 19:01:41 | kergoth | Kopsis: dynamically linked. it'll use the qpl licensed lib for non gpl developers. |
| 19:01:44 | mandrake | and since MY LICENSE for QPE is the one that matters... |
| 19:01:47 | nelson | Kopsis: that is the common theory, but I"m not sure it's correct. |
| 19:01:49 | mandrake | (it's my app) |
| 19:01:57 | whardier | I have a red liscence.. |
| 19:02:06 | mandrake | this is how it has been interpreted. |
| 19:02:14 | mandrake | nelson: it is correct. |
| 19:02:24 | mandrake | nelson: I agree that apps linked against a GPL library must be GPL. |
| 19:02:33 | nelson | mandrake: hehe. Precedent or your opinion? |
| 19:02:44 | mandrake | HOWEVER, there is another license that has been applied to the use of that library, which is the one I was granted writing the app |
| 19:02:54 | mandrake | thus in this instance it is NOT being used as a GPL library |
| 19:03:07 | mandrake | so ONCE AGAIN there is no licensing issue |
| 19:03:14 | Kopsis | so how does one get a QPL version of a supplemental library? Unless the supplemental lib developer has a commercial QT license? |
| 19:03:21 | xxL | mandrake, nelson, kopsis: (L)GPL talks only about compile-time linking. It doesn't say anything about run-time linking |
| 19:03:22 | mandrake | Kopsis: it's just a license. |
| 19:03:35 | nelson | mandrake: yup, and so long as no other libraries are GPL'ed, you're home free. |
| 19:03:40 | mandrake | nelson: bingo. |
| 19:03:59 | mandrake | xxL: I still win because it was compiled against no GPL libraries when I built the proprietary app, since I have a non-GPL license for QPE. |
| 19:04:01 | xxL | that's why one can link against commercial qpe and run against GPL qpe |
| 19:04:16 | BZFlag | Kopsis: which library is in question? |
| 19:04:28 | mandrake | really I win with either interpretation. |
| 19:04:45 | mandrake | and, luckily, RMS agrees with em. |
| 19:04:47 | mandrake | me even |
| 19:05:02 | mandrake | although I'm still waiting for him to say that being compiled with gcc construes a derived work =) |
| 19:05:09 | Kopsis | BZFlag: the supplemental lib. If it's compile time linked against qpe it must be GPL or the developer must have a QT license |
| 19:05:15 | kergoth | hm. so how can we create this supplemental lib? we'd have to have a commercial qpe license to link against it to create it, right? |
| 19:05:17 | xxL | mandrake: congrats, then. however, I got this impression we weren't talking about how *you* can win, rather about how opie can win :) |
| 19:05:28 | BZFlag | Kopsis: which "supplemental lib" ? |
| 19:05:36 | mandrake | xxL: right, and me winning in this case is being able to have my app work on opie and qpe together. |
| 19:05:47 | kergoth | BZFlag: our improvements to the library for qtopia will end up being in a seperate lib rather than trying to change the library |
| 19:05:50 | mandrake | (and potentially using any new stuff from opie in a standard qpe install) |
| 19:06:32 | BZFlag | kergoth: ah. libqpe on the Z is QPL, not GPL. It is also available under GPL from SF. |
| 19:06:48 | mandrake | BZFlag: actually it's irrelevant in that instance, also. |
| 19:06:51 | kergoth | BZFlag: yep |
| 19:06:54 | BZFlag | so your lib can be non-GPL, or GPL as you choose. |
| 19:06:55 | kergoth | well |
| 19:06:59 | mandrake | because we want it to work on the ipaq, too |
| 19:07:22 | mandrake | can't be a zaurus-only solution to the problem |
| 19:07:27 | BZFlag | provided you have a SDK from TT or some 3rd party that includes a QPL developer license. |
| 19:07:35 | kergoth | so how would i link the lgpl lib against the gpl libqpe in developing it? wouldnt i need a qpl license to develop it? |
| 19:07:59 | mandrake | kergoth: why would you? you can build lgpl libraries with gpl libraries. |
| 19:08:13 | mandrake | making a supplemental lgpl library is a win-win situation |
| 19:08:21 | xxL | mandrake: can I build bsd libraries with gpl libraries, too ? |
| 19:08:22 | mandrake | everybody wins. |
| 19:08:31 | BZFlag | mandrake: and the target app(s) that will use this lib are GPLed or not? If GPLed then it can work on the iPAQ, if non-GPL then you need to be sure to have a qpe developer license from TT. |
| 19:08:57 | xxL | mandrake ? |
| 19:09:27 | kergoth | im confused |
| 19:09:28 | kergoth | heh |
| 19:09:29 | BZFlag | kergoth: you can link a lgpl lib to a gpl lib, but apps that use your lgpl lib would still be under GPL constraints. |
| 19:09:37 | kergoth | BZFlag: yes, i understand that |
| 19:09:59 | kergoth | BZFlag: so i'd need a commercial license from TT in order for the supplemental lib to be lgpl and use classes from the libqpe, correct? |
| 19:10:10 | BZFlag | now, if you have a qpl lib (same lib, different license) and you link your lgpl lib to it, then non-free apps can use your lib. |
| 19:11:27 | BZFlag | kergoth: no. lgpl lib can use what ever it wants afaik. it will then depend on the app on top. if it's gpl that the first lib can be gpl. if it is non-gpl then you need the a qpl license for the first lib. |
| 19:11:36 | mandrake | sorry |
| 19:11:41 | mandrake | work needed me a moment =) |
| 19:11:54 | mandrake | xxL: yes and no. |
| 19:12:01 | mandrake | xxL: in a gpl'd application, you can use gpl and bsd libraries. |
| 19:12:03 | xxL | mandrake: ?? |
| 19:12:11 | mandrake | xxL: in a bsd application you cannot use gpl libraries. |
| 19:12:19 | xxL | I wasn't talking about apps here |
| 19:12:54 | xxL | my question was simplier: can you link a bsd lib against a gpl lib ? |
| 19:12:59 | BZFlag | a bsd app/lib can use gpled libraries ut it now has gpl constraints in addition to the bsd constraints. bsd license is gpl friendly. |
| 19:12:59 | kergoth | BZFlag: ohhhh |
| 19:12:59 | mandrake | xxL: many gnu applications use imlib, and imlib is bsd licensed, so I'd assume the FSF does not frown upon it |
| 19:13:04 | whardier | woowoo |
| 19:13:07 | whardier | they released the meeting food |
| 19:13:14 | whardier | watches the techs crawl |
| 19:13:23 | mandrake | (for practical definition) |
| 19:13:24 | MEGASTeP | is back (gone 15:14:11) |
| 19:13:34 | xxL | mandrake: you didn't answer my question :( |
| 19:13:35 | BZFlag | gpled lib/app can use bsd code with no additional constraints. |
| 19:13:38 | mandrake | but I would say that because they use both gpl and bsd libraries you can use them together |
| 19:13:55 | BZFlag | xxL: I did, though, no? |
| 19:14:03 | kergoth | BZFlag: thanks, you really cleared this up for me. just wasnt sinking in. |
| 19:14:04 | mandrake | but the gpl'd library will affect what you can license your final application as. |
| 19:14:34 | BZFlag | kergoth: ianal, but I think that's correct. |
| 19:15:06 | xxL | bzflag: I know a different definition for "gpl friendly" |
| 19:15:17 | mandrake | besides, with bsd code you can relicense that code to GPL optionally whenever you feel like it. |
| 19:15:27 | BZFlag | mandrake: correct. in this case (libqpe) you can do gpl/gpl or qpl/non-free depending on your libqpe license. |
| 19:15:35 | mandrake | only restriction is you keep copyright intact |
| 19:15:45 | mandrake | (which is also a legal obligation regardless) |
| 19:16:08 | xxL | you guys got it upside down... |
| 19:16:21 | mark_ | xxL: is there still a difference of opinion? |
| 19:16:25 | xxL | yes |
| 19:16:32 | mandrake | xxL: no, I don't believe so. |
| 19:16:32 | BZFlag | xxL: explain. |
| 19:16:37 | xxL | let me give you and example: |
| 19:16:51 | mandrake | my bsd library cannot depend on a gpl library |
| 19:16:55 | xxL | say you have 2 libraries: libb (bsd license) and libg (gpl license) |
| 19:16:57 | mandrake | but a gpl library can depend on a bsd library |
| 19:17:21 | mandrake | same with applications |
| 19:17:22 | xxL | libg can depend on libb because "bsd is gpl friendly" |
| 19:17:38 | BZFlag | xxL: yes, continue. |
| 19:17:42 | xxL | the question is: can libb depend on libg ? |
| 19:17:45 | mandrake | xxL: no. |
| 19:17:53 | BZFlag | yes but... |
| 19:17:56 | xxL | mandrake: ok, let's continue my exaple: |
| 19:17:56 | mandrake | xxL: the gpl automatically would restrict the license of libb |
| 19:18:09 | mandrake | (gpl is so damned evil) |
| 19:18:18 | xxL | now, you have a 3rd library: libl (LGPL) |
| 19:18:21 | BZFlag | if libb depends on libg then libb has been relicenced as gpl when you link it. |
| 19:18:33 | xxL | obviously, libg can depend on libl |
| 19:18:43 | xxL | question: can libl depend on libg ? |
| 19:18:51 | mandrake | xxL: yes and no. |
| 19:19:00 | xxL | madrake: explain |
| 19:19:19 | mandrake | xxL: it can depend on libg, but once you've linked it it is now subject to the GPL restrictions also. |
| 19:19:27 | BZFlag | xxL: yes, but now it has lost the (l)gpl implications for any app that links against it. |
| 19:19:28 | mandrake | (as is your final application) |
| 19:19:48 | mandrake | the GPL virus will spread all the way down the chain to your application. |
| 19:20:06 | BZFlag | xxL: yes, mandrake has it correct. |
| 19:20:10 | mandrake | the LGPL is basically just a non-viral GPL |
| 19:20:21 | xxL | I wasn't talking about any application |
| 19:20:21 | mandrake | the LGPL is an acceptable free software license, in my opinion |
| 19:20:26 | xxL | just libraries |
| 19:20:41 | mandrake | xxL: examples from the GNU project, once again... |
| 19:20:44 | BZFlag | xxL: ditto for the libl in your example. |
| 19:20:46 | mandrake | libart is GPL |
| 19:20:58 | mandrake | there are a couple of graphics libraries in gnome that can optionally use libart, they are lgpl |
| 19:21:33 | xxL | mandrake: why you can link libl against libg while you can't do the same thing for libb ? |
| 19:21:49 | mark_ | is away: supper time |
| 19:21:55 | mandrake | xxL: it's not the library itself whose license is directly affected so much as the end application. |
| 19:22:04 | BZFlag | you can link libb against libg. same outcome, libb is now gpl infected. |
| 19:22:14 | mandrake | xxL: and having the code in the library be under a particular license is useless when it affects all the end applications anyways |
| 19:22:24 | mandrake | thus, the viral effect |
| 19:22:37 | mandrake | you might as well make your library GPL if it depends on a GPL library because the application has to be GPL |
| 19:22:39 | mandrake | NOW |
| 19:22:43 | kergoth | hm, after this discussion i dont like gpl much anymore |
| 19:22:44 | mandrake | if you can get an alternate license to the GPL library |
| 19:22:48 | xxL | mandrake: you keep losing focus. we're not talking apps |
| 19:23:05 | mandrake | xxL: but that's the whole end goal. people write libraries in order to make writing applications easier. |
| 19:23:16 | mandrake | applications ARE the focus. |
| 19:23:24 | BZFlag | kergoth: heh. lgpl if generally a much better (well more free) license for libs. |
| 19:23:28 | xxL | mandrake: not really, if you follow me through the end |
| 19:23:29 | mandrake | a library is worthless when you cannot write applications with it |
| 19:23:33 | kergoth | BZFlag: no kidding.. |
| 19:23:41 | mandrake | kergoth: no, I despise the GPL. |
| 19:23:49 | kergoth | mandrake: i got that impression :-) |
| 19:23:59 | kergoth | mandrake: and after this, i can understand why |
| 19:24:02 | mandrake | I would never willingly write GPL software, though I would consider writing LGPL libraries. |
| 19:24:09 | mandrake | I had a 2 hour debate with RMS about this crap a few years ago |
| 19:24:12 | xxL | bzflag: but if your libb get's "infected" when you link it against libg, doesn't this mean you can't link bsd libraries against gpl ones ? |
| 19:24:22 | kergoth | mandrake: for the individual, it restricts freedom. |
| 19:24:29 | mandrake | xxL: no, because bsd libraries allow you to relicense it as you see fit. |
| 19:24:33 | BZFlag | xxL: no. it just means they are infected when you do. |
| 19:25:04 | mandrake | xxL: including making a proprietary copy and never giving back any changes to the community |
| 19:25:06 | xxL | bzflag: but I *do*. ie. my libb doesn't make any sense w/o a libg |
| 19:25:26 | mandrake | OR, optionally, making a GPL copy and redistributing it that way |
| 19:25:48 | xxL | I'm talking here writing a bsd lib in the context(depending on) of a gpl one |
| 19:25:49 | Kopsis | BZFlag: I think that's xxL's point ... it's not a BSD library once it has GPL code in it. |
| 19:25:55 | mandrake | when I give you a library under the BSD license it says 'take any code you want from inside of here and do whatever you want to with it, in or out of context' |
| 19:26:00 | xxL | kopsis: right |
| 19:26:01 | BZFlag | xxL: user "foo" could rewrite libg that you require under a new license, and then use your lib on top of that. |
| 19:26:07 | mandrake | you may choose to take code that does not use the gpl library |
| 19:26:52 | mandrake | Kopsis: that only applies at linktime however |
| 19:27:02 | Kopsis | mandrake: agreed |
| 19:27:04 | xxL | mandrake: think opie additional libs here. they really don't make sense ouside libqpe |
| 19:27:13 | mandrake | xxL: right, but qpe is not only GPL. |
| 19:27:45 | xxL | mandrake: I know. ignore that for now |
| 19:28:15 | mandrake | and once again, I've showed that lgpld libraries can and do exist that are built on top of GPLd libraries, and these can be found in the grand pooba of the GPL's source tree (the GNU project) |
| 19:28:41 | xxL | here's where I want to get to: you either *can* write non-gpl libs on top of gpl libs or you *can't* |
| 19:29:06 | xxL | 1. if you can't, it means we're screwed because of the gpl virus |
| 19:29:09 | mandrake | xxL: you can write the libs, but the viral infection happens when they are used, not when they are written and distributed. |
| 19:29:26 | xxL | mandrake: you couldn't be more wrong |
| 19:29:30 | mandrake | think of the code itself as an end product. |
| 19:29:59 | xxL | licensing matters when you actually write and compile your code, not when you run it |
| 19:30:24 | Kopsis | mandrake: I'm not sure the actualy language of the GPL supports what you're saying ... though in principal it makes sense. |
| 19:30:24 | mandrake | xxL: okay what I said came out wrong |
| 19:30:30 | xxL | that is, GPL is about compile-time linking, not about run-time linking |
| 19:32:18 | xxL | now, if you can write non-gpl libs on top of gpl ones, what's stopping you from putting all your app code into a closed-source library and make the binary just a thin main() funtion ? |
| 19:32:56 | mandrake | xxL: because when you linked your application against a GPL library suddenly everything in that instance of your application is GPL. |
| 19:33:06 | mandrake | xxL: including the code in that other library |
| 19:33:06 | xxL | the you distribute your app code as GPL |
| 19:33:24 | xxL | except for the library |
| 19:33:26 | mandrake | LGPL code (according to the license) can be distributed and used under the GPL at your option |
| 19:33:39 | mandrake | BSD code (according to the license) can be distributed and used under the GPL at your option |
| 19:33:47 | xxL | so what ? |
| 19:34:02 | mandrake | this means that exactly what you said make sthe difference |
| 19:34:10 | mandrake | the GPL infection happens at compiletime. |
| 19:34:46 | mandrake | thus you couldn't use a proprietary library |
| 19:34:55 | mandrake | because it cannot be distributed and used under the GPL per the license |
| 19:36:15 | kergoth | mandrake: wait, what happens if i compile the supplementary license with a libqpe thats gpl on the development box.. wouldnt the supplementary lib now be subject to the gpl not lgpl? (basically, do i need a commercial qtopia license to create a lgpl lib that can be distributed and used for closed source apps)? |
| 19:36:27 | BZFlag | mandrake: huh? you can use a propriatary license as long as that lib does not depend on any GPLed libs. |
| 19:36:46 | kergoth | s/supplementary license/supplementary lib/ |
| 19:36:55 | kergoth | heh |
| 19:36:56 | kergoth | tired |
| 19:36:57 | mandrake | kergoth: linktime determination. |
| 19:36:59 | BZFlag | kergoth: yes. the lgpl lib would be relicensed which lgpl allows. |
| 19:37:29 | mandrake | it's determined by who builds and links it |
| 19:37:35 | kergoth | okay |
| 19:38:00 | BZFlag | so you do not need a commercial qpe license to make a lgpl lib, but anyone that wants to use it in a non-gpl solution needs a non-gpl qpe license. |
| 19:38:16 | mandrake | BZFlag: right. |
| 19:38:34 | mandrake | BZFlag: my point before was when building an app where things depended on a gpld library |
| 19:38:45 | kergoth | okay, so the lgpl doesnt get relicensed until its linked into an app, not when its compiled. i understand. heh. |
| 19:38:51 | BZFlag | mandrake: I agreed. my comment was to kergoth |
| 19:38:58 | xxL | mandrake: what if I distribute my app in source form except for the closed source lib ? would I be breaking the law ? |
| 19:39:06 | mandrake | xxL: yes. |
| 19:39:12 | xxL | why ? |
| 19:39:21 | mandrake | xxL: because at linktime you can't relicense the closed source lib. |
| 19:39:27 | BZFlag | mandrake: well, actually no. |
| 19:39:28 | xxL | what link time ? |
| 19:39:44 | xxL | I'm not linking anything |
| 19:39:45 | mandrake | facilitation. |
| 19:40:00 | BZFlag | nobody would be ablt to use the closed source lib. so not illegal, just not useful. |
| 19:40:03 | mandrake | giving someone a gun and some bullets and telling them 'please don't kill that person there' |
| 19:40:13 | mandrake | that's gross negligance, and still illegal |
| 19:40:40 | xxL | I don't remember anyone getting killed by a library *g* |
| 19:40:58 | mandrake | handing someone the tools to commit a crime that cannot be used for anything but committing a crime is still illegal |
| 19:41:07 | BZFlag | mandrake: I disagree. say someone releases a lib with the same bindings but a different license. the closed source lib could be used against that theoretical lib. |
| 19:41:15 | fusion94 | kills mandrake for fun |
| 19:41:20 | mandrake | heh |
| 19:41:24 | xxL | bzflag: right |
| 19:41:57 | BZFlag | notes that compaq may well produce a bsd licensed qpe on x11 library. ;-) |
| 19:42:23 | mandrake | xxL: if your intent was that they were able to compile that application together then you're still doing criminal facilitation |
| 19:42:42 | xxL | so it boils down to intents ? |
| 19:42:48 | mandrake | yup |
| 19:43:01 | xxL | now those are hard to prove in the court, aren't they ? |
| 19:43:13 | mandrake | not if you provided a makefile it wouldn't be. |
| 19:43:33 | mandrake | certainly not if you advertised it |
| 19:43:39 | mandrake | and if you SOLD it, it also would not be |
| 19:43:40 | BZFlag | mandrake: there I agree. |
| 19:44:47 | xxL | hehe, picture this: I'm selling only my closed source library and nothing else. it's up to the customer to write the main() and link it together :) |
| 19:44:52 | xxL | lol |
| 19:45:04 | kergoth | Where can i find the bsd license to read it? anyone got a url handy? |
| 19:45:20 | BZFlag | if you say "I'm not going to break the law, but here are the bits you need to break the law, and they can not be useful to you if you don't break the law" then you are likely to be liable. |
| 19:45:26 | mandrake | xxL: if it requires a GPLd library then you still had intent to facilitate them breaking the law. |
| 19:45:39 | mandrake | particularly if you sold it to them |
| 19:45:42 | BZFlag | /usr/share/common-licenses/ on debian |
| 19:46:10 | mandrake | you can't even call it an educational tool, because you didn't provide them the source. |
| 19:46:39 | nelson | Geez, are you guys still arguing licenses?? That's the nice thing about having ADD -- I'd already completely forgotten about it. |
| 19:46:57 | mandrake | anyawys |
| 19:46:58 | BZFlag | ADD? |
| 19:47:01 | mandrake | I have work to do |
| 19:47:09 | mandrake | (building more commercial applications to run on QPE =) ) |
| 19:47:19 | BZFlag | ahh... attention... got it. |
| 19:47:21 | xxL | "you honor, I swear I did provide the headers, for educational purposes" hehe |
| 19:48:18 | mandrake | xxL: you'd have to be explicit in a whole lot of usage and do due dilligence on your part to make sure they wouldn't use it in a non-appropriate manner |
| 19:48:22 | mandrake | the burden is on you at that point |
| 19:48:27 | mandrake | you're going way down the wrong path here |
| 19:48:43 | mandrake | and suddenly your commercial library that links against a gpl library is not easy to make money on |
| 19:48:52 | mandrake | which is the whole point |
| 19:49:24 | xxL | I'm just trying to delaying the moment I'll have to get back to work. Did I mention what a wonderfull spagetti the qt designer is ? |
| 19:49:29 | mandrake | unless you authored the GPL library, in which case you just relicense it to them under a proprietary license. |
| 19:49:38 | mandrake | I don't use the Qt designer. |
| 19:49:55 | xxL | neither do I. but I have to hack it :( |
| 19:50:59 | xxL | or should I say "whack it" ? :)\ |
| 19:55:50 | mandrake | okay |
| 19:55:53 | mandrake | I have to go back to work |
| 19:56:05 | mandrake | I've spent way too much time thinking abou the evil GPL |
| 20:00:08 | Fluxwerk | burp |
| 20:02:00 | Fluxwerk | anyone alive? |
| 20:02:37 | mandrake | nup |
| 20:03:08 | whardier | hehe |
| 20:03:08 | Neo|Work | is back (gone 01:38:00) |
| 20:03:10 | whardier | BitchX(666): Operation not permitted |
| 20:03:16 | whardier | when I did a killall BitchX |
| 20:03:27 | Fluxwerk | why is sd so expensive |
| 20:03:42 | Fluxwerk | even though non sdmi is cheaper :) |
| 20:04:08 | file | because it's so secure? |
| 20:06:20 | BZFlag | file: heh, yeah, right. |
| 20:06:31 | file | :) |
| 20:06:36 | file | or so they claim it's secure |
| 20:11:40 | Com[Plx | ghmm |
| 20:14:45 | Com[Plx | question, I recently loopback mounted the initrd of the 1.11 romimage, - downloaded the files of it all, mirrored, whatever, - and I want to know how to make this into an installable rom for the Z. - |
| 20:14:49 | Com[Plx | I ahve some changes I want to make to the config files, and I want to put them onto the Z. |
| 20:15:07 | Fluxwerk | whao |
| 20:15:14 | Fluxwerk | power flickered |
| 20:15:23 | scanline | is back (gone 01:23:05) |
| 20:16:14 | kergoth | Com[Plx: you need to cp -a the mounted initrd files into a working area.. make your changes.. then create a cramfs image from that directory.. rename the image to initrd.bin, and flash your Z with it |
| 20:16:18 | Fluxwerk | gotta love this New England weather |
| 20:18:33 | kergoth | heh. was 55 degrees the other day, and cold and snowing like hell today. i wish the weather would make up its mind |
| 20:19:59 | Fluxwerk | raining harder than I ever remember |
| 20:23:38 | Com[Plx | flux, where are you in NE? im in maine. very mild here. misty |
| 20:24:06 | Fluxwerk | LowerHell |
| 20:24:11 | Fluxwerk | aka Lowell, MA |
| 20:24:22 | Com[Plx | ahh |
| 20:24:36 | Fluxwerk | well, right next door in Chelmsford atm.... |
| 20:24:55 | NetAmp | hi all |
| 20:25:09 | Fluxwerk | hey NetAmp |
| 20:25:14 | Fluxwerk | this weather is freaky atm |
| 20:25:19 | Fluxwerk | all quiet now |
| 20:25:32 | NetAmp | jah |
| 20:25:52 | NetAmp | I'm reading an article about the Zaurus |
| 20:25:55 | Com[Plx | kergoth, - should I copy the entire buildroot-oz directory over or jsut the sharprom and sharproot folders? |
| 20:25:59 | NetAmp | (at http://www.geek.com/pdageek/features/zaurus/index.htm) |
| 20:26:02 | kergoth | Com[Plx: ? |
| 20:26:08 | kergoth | Com[Plx: build/sharproot/ contains the root filesystem |
| 20:26:09 | NetAmp | It's kinda old, but interesting though |
| 20:26:16 | kergoth | Com[Plx: you want a copy of the root filesystem |
| 20:26:25 | Com[Plx | okay. |
| 20:26:36 | NetAmp | it says "The handwriting recognition software is completely customizable, allowing you to assign your own patterns to the entire alphabet." |
| 20:26:46 | NetAmp | Has anyone tried anything with that yet? |
| 20:26:49 | NetAmp | It sounds cool :D |
| 20:27:00 | Com[Plx | hehe |
| 20:27:22 | Com[Plx | I my hand writing is so bad, it doesnt matter how customized it is. it sucks. |
| 20:27:33 | NetAmp | Hahaha *lol* (no offence ;) |
| 20:27:43 | NetAmp | (to your handwriting that is :D) |
| 20:28:04 | Com[Plx | hey, has anyone considered making the SD or CF icons on the task tray to open file manager for that path on double tap? |
| 20:28:22 | NetAmp | that also sounds cool ;) |
| 20:28:32 | Com[Plx | tis okay netamp, my typing is just as bad. - got nervous system malfunction. |
| 20:28:58 | NetAmp | oww... well, maybe someone will port Speech Recognition :D |
| 20:29:09 | Com[Plx | another thing that would be nice, would be if the stupid media player would STAY on the last played song for the next time you opened it. |
| 20:29:14 | Com[Plx | instead of starting at track one every tiem |
| 20:29:36 | NetAmp | hm... edit & re-compile? ;-) |
| 20:29:41 | Fluxwerk | damn it |
| 20:30:16 | NetAmp | or is it part of the commercial stuff |
| 20:30:26 | Com[Plx | netamp, I stutter too. lol |
| 20:30:28 | Fluxwerk | there goes my home power |
| 20:30:34 | Fluxwerk | uptime destroyed |
| 20:30:37 | Fluxwerk | ugh |
| 20:30:38 | kergoth | NetAmp: sharp made changes to qtopia that havent been released as source |
| 20:30:49 | kergoth | NetAmp: you can change and recompile the one in cvs, but it wont be the same as the one you have now |
| 20:31:01 | kergoth | NetAmp: it'd have your new additions but lose sharps improvements |
| 20:31:15 | NetAmp | kergoth: hm ok thanks for the info :) |
| 20:31:18 | kergoth | np |
| 20:31:24 | Com[Plx | flux: the only time my server ever goes down is when the power goes out, - wich is every time theres a fire in my city, - they shut down the power to each grid, and for some reason, that means us. |
| 20:31:26 | Com[Plx | lol |
| 20:31:33 | Com[Plx | and thats once a week in the summer time. |
| 20:31:58 | NetAmp | kergoth: Do you expect there will also be development like this for the 5500? |
| 20:32:12 | NetAmp | 'cause that'll probably be a newer rom version(???) |
| 20:32:21 | kergoth | NetAmp: hmm? 'development like this'? |
| 20:32:30 | NetAmp | well, like what everyone's doing now |
| 20:32:48 | kergoth | i still dont understand the question |
| 20:32:56 | NetAmp | CVS etc. |
| 20:32:58 | kergoth | ? |
| 20:33:05 | kergoth | you mean for changes to qtopia itself? |
| 20:33:10 | kergoth | or for development of apps? |
| 20:33:11 | kergoth | or what? |
| 20:33:18 | NetAmp | yeah like changes |
| 20:33:30 | kergoth | so whats your question? |
| 20:33:50 | kergoth | i have no idea whether or not sharp will release their changes to the trolltech codebase. ask jason about that. |
| 20:34:15 | NetAmp | Well... if I get a 5500, will I be able to use the changes/additions that have been made now for the 5000D? |
| 20:34:38 | Com[Plx | did you guys know that some company on pricewatch.com is taking pre ordered for the zaurus, and advertising them as having wireless networking? |
| 20:34:38 | kergoth | obviously |
| 20:34:39 | Com[Plx | http://queen.pricewatch.com/search/search.idq?ne=36325&l=36279&CiCodePage=Windows-1252&cr=zaurus&qc=%22ZAURUS%22* |
| 20:34:53 | Com[Plx | obviously they are playing on words, |
| 20:34:59 | Com[Plx | they must mean the irda port. |
| 20:35:03 | NetAmp | 'cause it's probably different... someone even said that maybe the 5500 won't have a terminal installed by default |
| 20:35:06 | kergoth | NetAmp: the 5000d and 5500 will likely use the same root filesystem, just different kernels.. except for script changes in the 5500 to accomidate the altered heap for new ram |
| 20:35:12 | Com[Plx | either that, or they screwed up |
| 20:35:31 | kergoth | NetAmp: including or not including terminal built in is a minor thing. who cares. its still ipkg installable |
| 20:35:56 | Com[Plx | kergoth, any idea how to change my scripts to change the heap and whatnot? - with this file system, scripts must be editable, wheres the heap stuff specified? |
| 20:36:14 | kergoth | Com[Plx: huh? you need to rebuild the kernel to alter the ram-mtdram balance |
| 20:36:22 | kergoth | Com[Plx: then you have to edit rc.rofilesys to match |
| 20:36:32 | NetAmp | OK cool :D sadly I still don't know much about linux yet, but still I'd like to use that too, not only the "abstract" PDA interface |
| 20:36:43 | Com[Plx | netamp, probably no terminal icon in the apps menu, but Ill bet the binary will still be on there.. |
| 20:36:44 | kergoth | so install the embeddedkonsole |
| 20:36:50 | kergoth | Com[Plx: no, it probably wont |
| 20:36:53 | Com[Plx | no |
| 20:36:55 | kergoth | Com[Plx: they'll just have it as an ipk |
| 20:36:58 | Com[Plx | ahh |
| 20:37:13 | kergoth | Com[Plx: the prelease versons of 1.1x were like that. had to install the ipk |
| 20:37:28 | Com[Plx | hmm.. |
| 20:37:41 | Com[Plx | Im using rom 1.11 and didnt have to add it. |
| 20:37:59 | kergoth | i just said |
| 20:38:10 | kergoth | the PRERELEASE rom |
| 20:38:13 | kergoth | that became 1.1x |
| 20:38:16 | kergoth | was like that |
| 20:38:23 | kergoth | 1.1x are not |
| 20:38:29 | kergoth | they reverted the change obviously |
| 20:38:30 | Com[Plx | oh oh |
| 20:38:53 | Com[Plx | I never saw a prerelease version, - I thought they were 'all' prerelease. |
| 20:39:06 | kergoth | i meant prerelease as in not released to the community |
| 20:39:25 | kergoth | except for that which a few of us obtained and the rom preinstalled on the units purchased at LWCE |
| 20:40:56 | NetAmp | hehe, me and my stupid questions *lol* ;-) I'm just trying to decide whether the 5000 or 5500 would be better for me |
| 20:41:00 | kergoth | re ljp_work |
| 20:41:15 | kergoth | NetAmp: dont worry about the software, itll likley be the same. decide based on cost and memory |
| 20:41:19 | kergoth | s/likley/likely/ |
| 20:41:27 | ljp_work | hiya |
| 20:41:44 | NetAmp | yeah... true... the extra memory is interesting ofcourse |
| 20:41:45 | BZFlag | anyone using http://specs.emscomputing.com/cgi-bin/specs/specs.asp?pid="039480"&sid="3c75597500bfb4fe2741d8b0e20c0713"&price="$100.49" smc2642w on a Z? |
| 20:41:45 | ljp_work | that mediaplayer on the zaurus sucks |
| 20:41:58 | kergoth | BZFlag: i've heard that people are using it and that it works, iirc |
| 20:42:09 | kergoth | BZFlag: i dont have a cf nic yet |
| 20:42:17 | kergoth | ljp_work: indeed. still wading in that code? |
| 20:43:44 | ljp_work | ya |
| 20:44:05 | NetAmp | Com[Plx: ouch... it's $599 at that Pricewatch site :( |
| 20:45:01 | ljp_work | I mediaplayer says there's no codecs of wav's that are 22050.. but voiverec handles them perfectly |
| 20:45:19 | kergoth | broken |
| 20:45:19 | kergoth | heh |
| 20:45:23 | ljp_work | no codecs.. ya right |
| 20:45:47 | ljp_work | its cause the format is hardcoded at 44100 |
| 20:45:47 | NetAmp | ljp_work: that makes me think about some other program, I believe it's called "Windows Media Player" ;-) |
| 20:46:22 | ljp_work | heh ya.. |
| 20:46:43 | ljp_work | but I'll get the mediaplayer improved one day, soon |
| 20:48:27 | ljp_work | the version on my desktop works better than the cross compiled one .... |
| 20:48:44 | ljp_work | I wish sharp folded their changes back into qpe |
| 20:51:29 | ljp_work | having no fpu is a drag also |
| 21:00:54 | Com[Plx | another thing that would be nice, would be if the stupid media player would STAY on the last played song for the next time you opened it. |
| 21:01:19 | kergoth | Com[Plx: ljp is working on improving the mediaplayer code in Opie |
| 21:01:25 | Com[Plx | sweet :> |
| 21:01:44 | NetAmp | "Opera on the Zaurus is amazing. It dances circles around Pocket Internet Explorer." *lol* |
| 21:01:45 | Fluxwerk | the z needs to be able to handle larger media files as well |
| 21:01:57 | Com[Plx | yeah? what is its limit right now? |
| 21:02:11 | Fluxwerk | anything over 5meg seems to freak it out |
| 21:04:20 | Com[Plx | hmm |
| 21:04:33 | Com[Plx | I play mp3s over ten megs all the time |
| 21:04:46 | Com[Plx | mosyt of my mp3s are over ten megs actually. |
| 21:04:59 | NetAmp | whoa! |
| 21:05:05 | NetAmp | long songs ;) |
| 21:05:18 | NetAmp | or encoded at extreme levels? :D |
| 21:09:30 | Com[Plx | both actually, I listen to a lot of trance, - some are encoded up to 192, and some are jsut really long. |
| 21:09:47 | Com[Plx | - I havent heard a single hiccup while listening to mp3s. |
| 21:13:22 | NetAmp | cool :) |
| 21:13:31 | Fluxwerk | well, I was actually refering more to video |
| 21:13:39 | Fluxwerk | audio has been decnt |
| 21:13:44 | NetAmp | DivX :P |
| 21:14:21 | Com[Plx | coo |
| 21:14:30 | Com[Plx | l |
| 21:16:18 | Com[Plx | hey, is anyone from the kompany here? |
| 21:16:23 | Com[Plx | I had a question |
| 21:18:22 | Fluxwerk | xxl but he is idle |
| 21:22:12 | NetAmp | Wow, "an integrated phone/PDA version of the Zaurus:" - http://www.geek.com/pdageek/features/zaurus/futurecloseup.jpg |
| 21:22:12 | weimer | Fastolfe: Got my mail |
| 21:23:02 | mark_ | NetAmp: funky as hell |
| 21:23:05 | bipolar_away | is away: I'm not here... Really.... |
| 21:25:50 | sjohnson | NetAmp: What is URL of the story that goes with the photo? |
| 21:29:39 | carey | sjohnson: same without the filename |
| 21:30:12 | sjohnson | carey: thanx |
| 21:32:43 | mark_ | is Handcom shipping with the Z? |
| 21:33:05 | ljp_work | you mean Hancom? |
| 21:33:09 | mark_ | yeh |
| 21:33:37 | ljp_work | talk to BigBoss |
| 21:33:55 | mark_ | he went off a while ago |
| 21:33:58 | mark_ | what has it to do with him? |
| 21:34:14 | | Fastolfe was last seen on #zaurus 15 hours, 30 minutes and 36 seconds ago, saying: brb I have an audience with Princess Nicotine [Thu Feb 21 06:03:38 2002] |
| 21:34:14 | weimer | ibot: seen Fastolfe |
| 21:34:23 | ljp_work | he's the US' ceo or cfo or cpu or something like that |
| 21:34:38 | mark_ | I thought he was tkc |
| 21:34:45 | ljp_work | yep.. same dude |
| 21:35:07 | mark_ | okay |
| 21:35:16 | mark_ | i hope they'll sell it stand alone as well |
| 21:35:39 | ljp_work | it was in the test rom built 1/08 |
| 21:35:53 | ljp_work | and it works in the 1.1x rom's |
| 21:36:07 | mark_ | really? |
| 21:36:10 | mark_ | sounds like it is gonna ship then |
| 21:36:11 | ljp_work | yep |
| 21:36:14 | mark_ | wants a copy |
| 21:36:15 | ljp_work | nothin' like dd |
| 21:36:21 | ljp_work | heh.. |
| 21:36:33 | mark_ | not fair if its just for the Z |
| 21:36:50 | ljp_work | what- there's OTHER pda's? |
| 21:37:09 | mark_ | :-) |
| 21:37:57 | mark_ | seriously, i'll be annoyed if its not released standalone as well, coz then people will have to run Qtopia if they want it |
| 21:38:00 | ljp_work | I think I messed up my z when I was playing with my screen blanker thingy app |
| 21:38:24 | ljp_work | and I don't want to reset |
| 21:38:53 | mark_ | :( |
| 21:39:15 | ljp_work | its just a setting.. screen blanking does work automatically.. |
| 21:40:01 | ljp_work | and I haven't recompiled my test app and put it on the z to see if I can change it back.. cause the light and power app doesn't do it |
| 21:41:07 | ljp_work | nothing like experimenting |
| 21:42:30 | mark_ | ljp_work: he |
| 21:42:45 | xxL | Com[Plx: I'm here |
| 21:44:39 | Fluxwerk | hey xxl |
| 21:44:44 | Fluxwerk | xxL even |
| 21:53:46 | Com[Plx | xxl, - on rom 1.11, if I purchase the bundle from you guys, will I have enough memory to isntall them all and actually run them? <sl5000 |
| 21:54:27 | Neo|Work | is away: I'm busy |
| 21:54:42 | Neo|Work | is back (gone 00:00:01) |
| 21:54:50 | Fluxwerk | Neo that was quick |
| 21:55:14 | Neo|Work | heh |
| 21:55:21 | Neo|Work | forgot to away myself when I left. :P |
| 22:01:42 | Neo|Work | is away: afk for a short while... |
| 22:02:09 | Fluxwerk | bbl, time to go home |
| 22:11:53 | Com[Plx | *sigh* |
| 22:14:03 | Neo|Work | is back (gone 00:12:20) |
| 22:14:57 | xxL | Com[Plx: I don't know, really |
| 22:15:08 | xxL | I'm using a CF card myself |
| 22:15:15 | Com[Plx | I downloaded the rootfs for the Z, and I cant seem to copy it to another place. |
| 22:15:26 | Com[Plx | xxl, cf for ram? |
| 22:15:41 | xxL | no, CF for installing the apps in it |
| 22:16:02 | xxL | the ram on 1.11 is enough to run any of our apps |
| 22:16:23 | Com[Plx | I isntall everything I can onto my SD card, but not everything will go there. - will the kompanies apps go there? |
| 22:16:29 | Com[Plx | onto SD |
| 22:16:37 | xxL | yes, most of them will |
| 22:17:11 | kergoth | Com[Plx: cp -a build/sharproot root_cramfs; # edit stuff in root_cramfs; bin/build.sh; # to alter the Z rootfs |
| 22:20:12 | Neo|Work | does anyone har a problem with applications "launching" themselves? |
| 22:20:18 | Com[Plx | Im getting a bunch of directories that say "you do not have enough permissions to reaf file:/blah/sharproot/opt/QtPalmtop |
| 22:20:26 | Neo|Work | Fluxwerk has this issue with Eligo - it apparently pops up by itself.. |
| 22:20:55 | kergoth | Com[Plx: okay, so why dont you try being root? |
| 22:21:34 | Com[Plx | I am root |
| 22:21:38 | Com[Plx | I logged in as that |
| 22:21:51 | kergoth | Com[Plx: then you have enough permissions to do anything. |
| 22:21:53 | Com[Plx | hang on, Im performing the commands you jsut oprdered |
| 22:22:02 | kergoth | okay |
| 22:22:14 | Com[Plx | same error, |
| 22:22:31 | kergoth | ls -l build/sharproot/; |
| 22:22:47 | Com[Plx | in root_cramfs, /opt/qtopia, it says I lack the permissions |
| 22:23:21 | Neo|Work | xxL: you from the kompany? |
| 22:23:24 | Com[Plx | fuking symlinks |
| 22:23:33 | kergoth | Com[Plx: try using cp -a |
| 22:23:45 | kergoth | Com[Plx: preserves symlinks and devices |
| 22:23:52 | Com[Plx | yeah, |
| 22:24:10 | Com[Plx | so trying to enter a symlink as a directory wont take me to the directory its linking to? |
| 22:24:19 | Com[Plx | clearly not. |
| 22:24:58 | whardier | ok |
| 22:25:00 | whardier | MATH TIME! |
| 22:25:13 | whardier | if I have 3 alphas |
| 22:25:22 | whardier | how many different compinations will it give me! |
| 22:25:31 | whardier | s/comp/comb/ |
| 22:25:38 | kergoth | how many combinations of what? |
| 22:25:38 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:25:41 | whardier | "zyx" "abc" "fha" |
| 22:25:47 | whardier | unique combinations |
| 22:25:49 | kergoth | ah |
| 22:25:54 | Com[Plx | fuck |
| 22:25:58 | kergoth | 26 ^ 3 |
| 22:25:59 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:26:02 | whardier | I knew that |
| 22:26:25 | Com[Plx | hwo can I change into the Home directory in the root_cramfs without changing to My home? |
| 22:26:26 | kergoth | 'unique combinations' < ? |
| 22:26:32 | kergoth | huh? |
| 22:26:40 | kergoth | use cp -a to copy, as i said |
| 22:26:41 | Com[Plx | I cant cd home |
| 22:26:42 | whardier | unique combinations :) |
| 22:26:43 | kergoth | it doesnt follow symlinks |
| 22:26:48 | Com[Plx | it takes me to ~! |
| 22:26:49 | kergoth | no, you cant cd home |
| 22:26:50 | Com[Plx | it takes me to ~ |
| 22:26:51 | kergoth | cd root/ |
| 22:26:56 | kergoth | tar xvf .home_default.tar; |
| 22:26:58 | kergoth | cd home; |
| 22:27:06 | Com[Plx | what does that do? |
| 22:27:12 | kergoth | exactly what it says |
| 22:27:25 | kergoth | /home on the zaurus is a link |
| 22:27:26 | xxL | Neo: yes |
| 22:27:41 | Neo|Work | xxL: Ah. Ok. just checking. :P |
| 22:27:41 | Com[Plx | hmm |
| 22:27:58 | kergoth | Com[Plx: just run those commands |
| 22:28:00 | Com[Plx | what does tar xvf .home_default.tar; do? |
| 22:28:02 | kergoth | ls -l is your friend |
| 22:28:04 | Com[Plx | .. |
| 22:28:08 | kergoth | explore the filesystem |
| 22:28:09 | xxL | Neo: and you are from ? |
| 22:28:28 | Neo|Work | Sweden. ;-) |
| 22:28:42 | xxL | Ah. Ok. just checking. :p |
| 22:28:51 | Neo|Work | From can mean many things. care to define it better? :-) |
| 22:29:03 | kergoth | Com[Plx: man tar; |
| 22:29:06 | Neo|Work | lives in Everett, WA, USA however. |
| 22:29:18 | xxL | lol, just a wordplay I guess |
| 22:30:08 | Neo|Work | Re: Z => http://eongames.com/ |
| 22:30:21 | Com[Plx | I gotta run. thanx for your help |
| 22:30:32 | xxL | Neo: I work for theKompany, sometimes (to avoid the 'from' confusion) |
| 22:31:02 | Neo|Work | Right. I'm aware how theKompany works (decentralized etc) |
| 22:31:13 | xxL | eongames ? Oh, the Lines clone, right ? |
| 22:31:34 | Neo|Work | yah. Or, originally a Lines clone. Quite a lot more now |
| 22:32:31 | whardier | http://www.theory-of-evolution.org/Main/chap4/combinations-8.htm |
| 22:32:38 | whardier | anybody underdstand this crap? |
| 22:33:17 | whardier | I need 26 C 3 |
| 22:33:37 | xxL | neo: I like the gfx, too bad I never was a lines fan |
| 22:33:51 | xxL | neo: any other games in work ? |
| 22:34:19 | fiferboy | whardier: 2600 I think |
| 22:34:59 | whardier | fiferboy how did you come to that? |
| 22:35:12 | fiferboy | Calculator ;-) |
| 22:35:18 | whardier | heh |
| 22:35:29 | whardier | be a good little boy and cough up the formula |
| 22:35:38 | whardier | before I end up getting frustrated and writing a damn script :) |
| 22:35:42 | fiferboy | Okay, hold on a second... |
| 22:35:44 | whardier | heh |
| 22:35:52 | kergoth | uh the formula is on that page whardier |
| 22:35:54 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:36:00 | whardier | 5C2 = 5!/ [(5-2)! x 2!] = 5! / [ 3! x 2!] = 120/ [ 6 x 2] = 10 |
| 22:36:11 | whardier | it makes no sense to me |
| 22:36:20 | whardier | somebody kind enough to explain it? |
| 22:36:21 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:36:40 | whardier | pythong does not like ! |
| 22:36:49 | whardier | s/pythong/python/ |
| 22:36:51 | kergoth | aCb = a! / ((a - b)! x b!) |
| 22:37:01 | fiferboy | 26!/[(26-3)!x3!] |
| 22:37:05 | kergoth | there ya go |
| 22:37:06 | whardier | !? |
| 22:37:06 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:37:17 | whardier | what is a ! |
| 22:37:20 | kergoth | 26 ! = 25 * 24 * 23 * 22 * 21 ... * 2 * 1 |
| 22:37:32 | sjohnson | whardier: n! is n factorial is 1 * 2 * 3 ... * n |
| 22:37:34 | kergoth | whardier: you need to read your notes from school |
| 22:37:35 | kergoth | hehe |
| 22:37:37 | kergoth | yeah |
| 22:37:44 | whardier | kergoth.. I never got very far in math |
| 22:37:48 | whardier | so no notes to examine |
| 22:37:50 | kergoth | ah |
| 22:37:53 | whardier | besides I burned them all |
| 22:37:56 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:37:57 | fiferboy | Combinatorics are where it's at! |
| 22:38:06 | whardier | how do you do factorals in python I wonder |
| 22:38:07 | whardier | hmm |
| 22:38:24 | kergoth | heh why are you writing python scripts to do calculation of combinations? |
| 22:38:36 | whardier | heh |
| 22:38:37 | whardier | import math |
| 22:38:39 | whardier | math.factoral |
| 22:39:17 | whardier | oh no |
| 22:39:18 | whardier | heh |
| 22:39:18 | sjohnson | whardier: cacl'ig factorials is THE classic example of recursinv programming |
| 22:39:19 | whardier | nevermind |
| 22:39:30 | whardier | sjohnson I never know what anything is called |
| 22:39:39 | whardier | and I have written some prety intensely simple recursive programs |
| 22:40:14 | sjohnson | Try 1000000! using a rescusive program. Core crash!!!! :) |
| 22:40:28 | Neo|Work | xxL: I will do a port of a PocketPC game. After that, who knows. :P |
| 22:40:39 | kergoth | my first recursive program was a shell script to create a sitemap from a local dir structure |
| 22:40:40 | kergoth | heh |
| 22:42:03 | whardier | sjohnson heh |
| 22:42:08 | kergoth | anyone know how to increment a variable containing a number in a makefile? |
| 22:42:16 | kergoth | in shell its var=$((var + 1)); |
| 22:42:27 | kergoth | but i cant figure out how to do it on a makefile variable |
| 22:42:27 | kergoth | hmm |
| 22:46:21 | kergoth | or, barring that, I need a shell command to return the Nth word from a variable |
| 22:46:36 | kergoth | i.e. asking for 3rd word in "a b c" returns c |
| 22:48:27 | xxL | echo $var | cut -d ' ' -f 2 |
| 22:48:48 | kergoth | doh i shouldve thought of that. hehe. thanks |
| 22:48:54 | xxL | np |
| 23:08:21 | ][N-Flux | is opera on the Z javascript enabled? |
| 23:24:12 | Neo|Work | quiet dat |
| 23:24:14 | Neo|Work | day |
| 23:24:25 | ][N-Flux | is opera on the Z javascript enabled? |
| 23:24:30 | ][N-Flux | someone answer me :) |
| 23:24:36 | Neo|Work | would have no idea. |
| 23:24:40 | Neo|Work | do some emperical testing. :P |
| 23:59:55 | BigBoss | haven't seen Jason around recently |
