| 06:06.17 | *** join/#wowuidev purl (ibot@c-174-52-60-165.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 06:06.17 | *** topic/#wowuidev is BC Dinner Sign Up: https://bit.ly/2mV8xKi || WoW Classic Addon Cat: https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat160.html || 8.2.5 ToC: 80205 || 1.13 ToC: 11302 || http://pastebin.com || Discord: https://discord.gg/sVQCHr5 || Battletags: http://bit.ly/2MAEFxk || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 06:25.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@2a00:801:340:d972:93b4:ede:8943:edd8) |
| 08:49.42 | *** join/#wowuidev greedom (~greedom@2001:16b8:2e1a:a700:ea26:ccde:6d00:1c52) |
| 09:43.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Ssateneth (ident@unaffiliated/ssateneth) |
| 09:49.36 | *** join/#wowuidev greedom (~greedom@mue-88-130-54-190.dsl.tropolys.de) |
| 10:06.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (~Iriel@173-8-135-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 10:06.44 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 10:07.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (~Arrowmast@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 10:07.12 | *** join/#wowuidev nebula (~nebula@unaffiliated/nebula169) |
| 10:28.43 | Novacrash | nice work on the bt update nev, my macros work again \o/ |
| 10:30.55 | nevcairiel | it wasnt me |
| 10:32.53 | nevcairiel | not sure what kind of macro i would've possibly fixed |
| 10:34.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Breen (~Breen@80.175.117.105) |
| 10:40.36 | Novacrash | fwhen I altered GetItemCount() it only fixed normal spells not macros |
| 10:40.38 | Novacrash | your fix did both |
| 10:42.23 | Novacrash | GetActionCount() I mean |
| 10:43.58 | Novacrash | not sure why that is, but yeah it never worked with macros |
| 11:01.42 | Mr_Rabies | it seems blizzard fixed the icon display on macros too with the latest classic patch |
| 11:02.03 | Mr_Rabies | some macros would keep the ? icon until you opened the macro panel and clicked them |
| 11:04.35 | Ennea | Novacrash: looks like bt4 uses my lib now ^^ |
| 11:05.49 | Novacrash | yeah it does |
| 11:23.12 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 11:41.30 | Chipzz | Ennea: FWIW, I think making that fix a library was a mistake |
| 11:42.00 | Chipzz | Ennea: you should have made it a regular addon with a README specifying NOT to embed it |
| 11:42.44 | Chipzz | it doesn't make any sense for a fix to be "available" for one addon but not for another; either the API is broken or it's not |
| 11:43.38 | Chipzz | by making it a non-embeddable addon, users can just download it, and when Blizzard fixes the broken function, you just update your addon to be an empty lua file (ie not doing anything anymore since it's no longer needed) |
| 11:44.27 | Chipzz | if your fix causes problems once Blizzard releases a proper fix, you'll have to chase down all addons where your lib is embedded |
| 11:45.26 | Chipzz | (or instead of being an empty lua file the addon could just disable itself) |
| 11:46.02 | Chipzz | but that's just my 2c |
| 11:47.58 | Ennea | you probably have somewhat of a point there |
| 11:48.12 | Ennea | but the situation is difficult to judge/handle, due to the usual lack of comm from blizz |
| 11:48.21 | Ennea | nobody knows if it's intentional or a bug |
| 11:48.23 | Ennea | both are possible |
| 11:48.46 | Ennea | if it's intentional, a standalone addon that fixes the api function is a dirty solution on the long run |
| 11:49.04 | Ennea | and, as nev said when we talked about this a few days ago, hooking GetActionCount might break the default action buttons |
| 11:49.06 | Ennea | (who knows) |
| 11:49.27 | Ennea | so i feel the library is a better solution. because i also assume this break in functionality was intentional.. |
| 11:49.34 | Mr_Rabies | reminds me of that one addon called BlizzBugsSuck |
| 11:49.44 | Mr_Rabies | that still fixes things that have been broken for 10+ years lol |
| 11:50.32 | Mr_Rabies | well, i haven't used it in quite a while and it seems all but abandoned but https://www.wowace.com/projects/blizzbugssuck |
| 12:12.35 | nevcairiel | the majority of those issues are really minor UI quirks |
| 12:39.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Justwait (~Justwait@neb.wtf) |
| 13:43.35 | Chipzz | Ennea: assuming you meant replacing instead of hooking, that still doesn't make a difference. Or actually it does, instead of your addon breaking the default action buttons, it's now some random addon (or more than 1) that embeds your fix, making it much less obvious and much harder to chase down |
| 13:44.47 | Ennea | Chipzz, in this case, hooking or replacing doesn't make a difference. the idea was that the taint may break the default action buttons |
| 13:45.18 | Ennea | i think it's a safe bet that GetActionCount was fucked with intentionally, since GetTotemInfo is also useless/gone now |
| 13:45.30 | Ennea | i guess blizz wants to restrict classic's api to a 1.12 level |
| 13:46.00 | Ennea | which is absolutely pointless in the case of GetActionCount, since it can be replicated entirely using addon code, but whatever... |
| 13:47.57 | Chipzz | yeah I realized after I pressed enter that I formulated that poorly. |
| 13:49.33 | Chipzz | either way I'm biassed, IMO embedding is an anti-pattern, but the WoW addon community at large seems to disagree with me |
| 13:51.46 | Ennea | just look at it this way: assume this api function never existed (like back in the day). now i write a function that does this as an addon. i provide it as an embeddable library for addon authors to use. the alternative would be to make a standalone addon that just puts this function in the global scope, but what would be the point of that? |
| 13:54.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Sintacks (~Syntax@unaffiliated/sintacks) |
| 13:54.12 | Ennea | if blizzard clearly communicated them breaking GetActionCount was not intentional, i guess you could make a standalone addon that replaces it with a working alternative. and players would have a way to get this fixed relatively quickly. but doing this without communication might just lead to the following situation in the long run: a player grabs bartender4 or any other action bar addon of their choosing. to get reagent counts on spells working, they |
| 13:54.13 | Ennea | also have to get another addon. or action bar addons ship the code themselves to begin with. at that point, having it in a library form the start would've made more sense |
| 13:56.06 | Chipzz | Ennea: you realize .toc files can specify dependencies, right? |
| 13:56.19 | Ennea | yes |
| 13:56.55 | Chipzz | and I believe Curse will automatically pull in these dependencies |
| 14:01.55 | Chipzz | unless I'm mistaken in my understanding, the problem with embedding is that if multiple addons embed the same lib, which version you're gonna get is essentially undefined. Which in theory LibStub handles by version numbers, except that addons do not properly increase the version number (all addons I've seen are either version 1.0 or x.0; never 1.1 etc) |
| 14:02.33 | Chipzz | and if you depend on a bugfix in a library, you may not actually get the version that includes said fix |
| 14:03.41 | Ennea | libstub libraries also have a minor version, which is the one that is updated when there are any updates to it |
| 14:03.48 | Chipzz | even if you embed the fixed library in your addon |
| 14:03.54 | Ennea | i was also confused by the 1.0 for a while, but i figured it was just for incompatible library rewrites |
| 14:04.19 | Ennea | when registering a library with libstub, you provide a major version and a minor version. the former typically also including the lib's name |
| 14:04.19 | Chipzz | except that I never see any library actually increment that minor version |
| 14:04.34 | Ennea | and as far as i am aware, if a newer version is already loaded, an older won't overwrite the new one |
| 14:04.43 | Ennea | but a newer one will overwrite an old one if there is one |
| 14:04.54 | Chipzz | having the major version include the name is batshit insane and broken design |
| 14:05.07 | Ennea | nev's libactionbutton currently has a minor version of 76 |
| 14:05.48 | Chipzz | whoever designed LibStub that way clearly had no understanding of software design |
| 14:06.53 | Ennea | well.. you have a bunch of interfaces with two fields. a key and a version |
| 14:07.08 | Ennea | the naming might not be ideal, but i'd say this works nicely for its purpose |
| 14:08.00 | Chipzz | it may work, but it goes against all conventions used in, well, every other programming language in existance |
| 14:08.53 | Chipzz | also why have a major version LibFoo-1.0 when you'll never increase the 0? Should be called LibFoo-1 then |
| 14:09.22 | Ennea | perhaps the idea was to be as extensible as possible |
| 14:09.34 | Ennea | nevcairiel, perhaps you can shed some light on this. since you've been around a lot longer ;) |
| 14:10.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Yuyuli (~Yuyuli@85-127-63-68.dsl.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 14:17.46 | nevcairiel | All a library needs is a name and a version, what you put into your name is entirely up to you. |
| 14:19.41 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: except that's not how it works: |
| 14:19.41 | Chipzz | local LIBSTUB_MAJOR, LIBSTUB_MINOR = "LibStub", 2 -- NEVER MAKE THIS AN SVN REVISION! IT NEEDS TO BE USABLE IN ALL REPOS! |
| 14:19.43 | nevcairiel | many of us put a human readable major version in the name, but its not required |
| 14:20.06 | Chipzz | no name, only major (including name) and minor |
| 14:20.19 | nevcairiel | you get hung up on the name of a variable |
| 14:20.53 | Chipzz | I wouldn't say "hung up" because it's for good reason |
| 14:21.01 | Chipzz | a version is a number, not a string |
| 14:21.19 | Chipzz | because you want to be able to compare and sort versions |
| 14:21.32 | nevcairiel | the code or the way you use it would not change if i changed every "major" to "name" |
| 14:21.43 | nevcairiel | hence, its irreelvant |
| 14:21.53 | Chipzz | it's illegible and bad form |
| 14:22.01 | Chipzz | an anti-pattern |
| 14:22.07 | Ennea | as i said, the naming might not be ideal |
| 14:22.13 | Ennea | but the way it works is much more important |
| 14:22.19 | Ennea | and the way it works is pretty good and well thought out |
| 14:22.23 | Ennea | so i'm quite fine with it |
| 14:23.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Meorawr (~Meorawr@cpc157779-rdng31-2-0-cust890.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 14:23.32 | Chipzz | it also goes against the way Linux versions its libraries (.so's) and the way Windows versions its libraries |
| 14:24.03 | Chipzz | (same deal for OSX as Linux, except they're called dylib instead of so) |
| 14:25.32 | Meorawr | Well the WoW environment isn't Linux or Windows, so they don't really need to match 1:1. It can take cues from it, but I don't think either of those examples is a silver bullet that all future designs should follow. |
| 14:26.05 | nevcairiel | windows doesnt even have a consistent versioning scheme like linux follows |
| 14:26.07 | Chipzz | Meorawr: it's not just linux and windows, it's every software ecosystem in existance |
| 14:26.09 | Meorawr | You *could* split the major version out of the name as a separate number, but then you're requiring that all consumers of the library have the concept of a major version. |
| 14:26.21 | nevcairiel | all binaries have a 4 part version number, but it has no real meaning |
| 14:26.26 | Chipzz | Meorawr: name ONE software ecosystem that has the same retarded conventions as libstub? |
| 14:27.13 | Ennea | don't need one |
| 14:27.24 | Ennea | it's not like we are forced to use the same conventions as something else |
| 14:27.51 | Chipzz | no, it's a matter of your knowledge about software design being portable |
| 14:28.02 | Ennea | you have a string key for each library and then also a numeric version to make sure only the newest one is loaded. what else do you want? |
| 14:28.29 | Meorawr | ^ LibStub does what was needed at the time, there's no gain from it following conventions from other systems if the benefits yielded from those aren't realized. |
| 14:28.36 | Chipzz | ie you're already familiar with writing a library in say, python, and you can reuse that knowledge when writing your addon in WoW |
| 14:29.42 | Chipzz | but it appears LibStub is being different just for the sake of being different |
| 14:30.06 | Ennea | LibStub was created for the sole purpose of having a solution for a problem that didn't have one at the time |
| 14:30.16 | nevcairiel | the requirements from those other systems are usually very different, as having a central environment into which multiple libraries load from possibly different versions is not really common |
| 14:30.20 | Ennea | it does a specific job, and it does it in a pretty good way without being overly complex |
| 14:30.36 | Ennea | that's another good point, nev |
| 14:30.37 | nevcairiel | a python library, to follow your example, never has to deal with an older instance of itself already existing and properly replacing it |
| 14:30.50 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: actually it does |
| 14:31.05 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: libraries being coinstallable on linux is a real problem |
| 14:31.22 | nevcairiel | but your process would only load one |
| 14:31.30 | nevcairiel | not all of them in order and internally upgrade |
| 14:31.42 | Chipzz | hence why linux packages names often include the major so version in the package name (that's the package name, not the library nam) |
| 14:31.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Gethe (~Gethe@2605:a601:aa00:e700:1419:f298:225c:1889) |
| 14:33.43 | Chipzz | wonders how many of the people in here have experience in writing software other than WoW addons |
| 14:33.59 | Ennea | i write software for a living |
| 14:34.40 | Ennea | but it's mostly frontend stuff (js, html, css) because i like doing that. and as everybody is (hopefully) aware, the js ecosystem is a shit covered mess, so it's probably best not to take any ideas from it... |
| 14:34.55 | Ennea | if we are, i guess let's add semver and start prefixing our library names with @ for no apparent reason |
| 14:35.04 | Chipzz | Ennea: lol, I love node.js but I hate npm :) |
| 14:35.22 | Ennea | yea, i get what you mean |
| 14:35.27 | Chipzz | "isarray" *faceplant* |
| 14:35.50 | Ennea | our node_modules folder is 684mb in size... |
| 14:35.55 | Chipzz | npm appears to be a gigantic case of amateur hour :P |
| 14:36.16 | Ennea | i think the accessibility of javascript is one of the problems, yes |
| 14:36.30 | Ennea | now just imagine is WoW's ecosystem was this bad |
| 14:36.38 | Ennea | libstub is good, i still don't know what your issue with it is :p |
| 14:36.41 | Chipzz | it *is* this bad :) |
| 14:36.49 | Ennea | it's really not |
| 14:37.01 | nevcairiel | LibStub doesnt agree with his narrow idea of what he likes, hence its bad |
| 14:37.05 | Chipzz | it really is, embedding libraries in addons is the same deal as node_modules |
| 14:37.29 | Ennea | if you think embedding libs is bad, i guess you've never looked at this from a user's point of view |
| 14:37.33 | nevcairiel | users really werent happy with a large clutter of libraries in their addon directory |
| 14:37.39 | nevcairiel | we had that, users complained, a lot |
| 14:37.40 | Meorawr | Embedding isn't really any different than using static libraries in a compiled project. |
| 14:37.44 | nevcairiel | now they are just oblivious |
| 14:37.55 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: "narrow idea" when LibStub is the only one going against established conventions? lol :D |
| 14:38.13 | Ennea | in fact, with externalized libraries, you're bothering users with something they shouldn't care about and having them make decisions they literally can't |
| 14:38.13 | nevcairiel | what conventions? library versioning is all over the place everywhere |
| 14:38.24 | Ennea | if two addons use the same library with different versions, how should a user know which one to keep? |
| 14:38.25 | nevcairiel | having a name and a single version number is as simple as it gets |
| 14:39.22 | Chipzz | Ennea: that really is a non-problem with Curse? |
| 14:40.06 | Chipzz | Curse can download dependencies for you |
| 14:40.16 | *** join/#wowuidev NickG365 (~NickG365@2607:5300:60:6e29:472:6425:3733:0) |
| 14:40.28 | nevcairiel | users still dont want to see that clutter in their addons directory |
| 14:40.42 | Meorawr | Let's also not pretend that projects outside of WoW don't put major versions into their names. Example: libssh/libssh2, Python had urllib/urllib2... |
| 14:40.47 | *** join/#wowuidev NickG365 (~NickG365@2607:5300:60:6e29:472:6425:3733:0) |
| 14:41.07 | Chipzz | Meorawr: you're confusing "package name" with .so version |
| 14:41.27 | Ennea | Chipzz, i dunno, is it? |
| 14:41.30 | Chipzz | the former is an artifact of rpm/ dpkg/ whatever system you use |
| 14:41.33 | Ennea | personally i feel like curse is a piece of shit anyway |
| 14:41.38 | Ennea | (this is from a user's point of view) |
| 14:41.43 | *** join/#wowuidev NickG365 (~NickG365@2607:5300:60:6e29:472:6425:3733:0) |
| 14:41.44 | Chipzz | the latter is a linker related thing |
| 14:42.21 | Ennea | anyway, even with curse this is a potential issue. i don't use any client to download my addons, and i'm sure many others don't either |
| 14:42.27 | Ennea | so on the manual download path users still get fucked i guess |
| 14:42.40 | Chipzz | Meorawr: also, the 2 in libssh2 is the major so version; it indicates API incompatibility |
| 14:42.52 | Ennea | but then at some point in the past a decade and a few years ago a bunch of people got together and created libstub to solve this issue once and for all |
| 14:42.57 | Ennea | and what do you know, it worked |
| 14:43.42 | Ennea | Chipzz, that reminds me of the major version in libstub libraries actually. the one that's typically always 1.0 for most libs since most don't have any api incompatible major updates |
| 14:43.43 | Chipzz | yeah, it works. but reading LibStub.lua is confusing |
| 14:43.53 | Ennea | well, all you need is its api and you're good |
| 14:44.22 | Meorawr | Yes, the 2 is a major version - wasn't that one of the issues you had with LibStub and the "<name>-<major version>" convention people use for their libraries? |
| 14:45.16 | Chipzz | the issue I have with libstub is that it uses libssh2 as *version*, whereas the version of libssh clearly is 2 |
| 14:45.31 | Chipzz | libssh is the *name*, not the version |
| 14:45.37 | nevcairiel | so still stuck on the name of a variable |
| 14:45.48 | nevcairiel | should i rename it right now to make you happy? :d |
| 14:46.07 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: are you the author of LibStub? |
| 14:46.24 | Meorawr | Does the name portion being separate really matter? |
| 14:46.28 | Meorawr | What could you actually use it for? |
| 14:46.39 | nevcairiel | it was really made by a team over a decade ago, b ut i have access to change it |
| 14:46.48 | nevcairiel | not that I would for something petty like that |
| 14:47.26 | Chipzz | not that I'm asking you to, because it would only lead to more confusion for addon authors at this point |
| 14:47.39 | Chipzz | and would be an API break in LibStub itself :P |
| 14:48.17 | Ennea | changing the name of a variable is not breaking the api, luckily |
| 14:48.29 | Ennea | you can actually change it yourself if you fork it. it is in the public domain, after all |
| 14:48.41 | Chipzz | Ennea: adding an extra first parameter would be, though |
| 14:48.53 | Ennea | that's adding complexity where none is needed |
| 14:52.07 | Chipzz | personally, I have a couple of files in the addon I'm writing I could split out as a library; if I were to do that however, I would forego LibStub altogether, add a dependency line to my .toc, and ship a README in the library clearly stating that embedding is not supported and will break |
| 14:52.47 | Chipzz | (and it would break because I'm using XML and you can't redefine XML templates, even if they're identical) |
| 17:00.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols2 (~yaaic@217-209-12-6-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 17:39.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Sonicbit (~Sonicbit@unaffiliated/sonicbit) |
| 17:53.16 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (~harl@unaffiliated/harl) |
| 17:57.12 | *** join/#wowuidev pnorman (pnorman@152.44.137.233) |
| 18:34.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Sonicbit (~Sonicbit@unaffiliated/sonicbit) |
| 18:52.44 | foxlit | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:56.18 | foxlit | for whatever reason, people put quite a few different numbers into libstub's major; e.g. LibMail-0.1, LibDataBroker-1.1, LibGearPoints-1.2, LibStateDriver-1.3, LibGraph-2.1, AceLocale-3.1 (and quite a few others). |
| 20:04.26 | Gnarfoz | the mental gymnastics and ignoring of counterarguments that "discussion" required are amazing |
| 20:47.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Sonicbit_ (~Sonicbit@unaffiliated/sonicbit) |
| 21:01.58 | Chipzz | Gnarfoz: I totally agree that calling "LibStub" a "version" requires an extraordinary amount of mental gymnastics, indeed |
| 21:02.18 | Chipzz | how something that doesn't even have a digit in it is called a version is beyond me |
| 21:04.14 | Chipzz | but I'm going to assume that's not what you meant :p |
| 21:16.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~umsin@75-36-111-192.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:16.54 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 21:18.31 | MentalPower | Umm... LibStub can't be versioned (we knew it was a one-way door when it was being written/discussed/designed in this very channel). |
| 21:18.56 | MentalPower | Also, you could convert your XML templates into Lua ones :) |
| 21:32.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 22:24.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Sonicbit (~Sonicbit@unaffiliated/sonicbit) |
| 23:11.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols (~yaaic@217-209-12-6-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 23:50.48 | foxlit | I suspect I have a slight problem: I'd like to preserve |H links in text copy-pasted from an addon-created EditBox to another EditBox. |
| 23:52.11 | foxlit | (while the client seems inclined to discard them when copying to clipboard) |