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| 18:01.33 | TSquare | Good Morning |
| 18:01.33 | TSquare | I wanted to let people know that I am transitioning off of the WoW team to go to the Overwatch team. The new lead is interested in continuing the relationship with the addon community, but may need a little time to get situated in the new role first. This is a bitter-sweet moment for me, as I have known several of you for many years. I have very much enjoyed my interactions with the addon community, and I wish you all the best. Goodbye and happy coding |
| 18:01.33 | TSquare | :) |
| 18:03.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Meorawr (~Meorawr@cpc157779-rdng31-2-0-cust890.15-3.cable.virginm.net) |
| 18:03.27 | Cairenn | <3 TSquare |
| 18:04.07 | Cairenn | Gonna miss you |
| 18:04.47 | TSquare | (hugs!) hopefully we can still meet up at BlizzCon :) |
| 18:05.07 | Cairenn | You always have a standing invitation to the dinners! |
| 18:06.02 | Ennea | the best to you as well, TSquare. haven't been here long, but it has been nice ^_^ |
| 18:06.15 | TSquare | Thank you, you have been a great positive force for the Addon Community. It would not be where it is without you. |
| 18:06.27 | Cairenn | awwww |
| 18:06.40 | Ennea | can't say he's not telling the truth, Cairenn ;p |
| 18:07.46 | nevcairiel | Good luck on your future endavours! |
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| 18:08.00 | nevcairiel | that said, since blizzcon announced so much stuff now, can TheDanW tell us now where he went? :d |
| 18:08.31 | znf | ^ +1 |
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| 18:14.46 | TheDanW | nope! :p |
| 18:15.33 | Ennea | :D |
| 18:16.21 | Ennea | btw, TSquare: overwatch ui addons when? :p |
| 18:16.40 | TSquare | probably never :P |
| 18:16.59 | Ennea | figured :) |
| 18:17.18 | TSquare | well it's not a game that should support it |
| 18:17.22 | Ennea | i agree |
| 18:17.26 | Ennea | i was just being a little silly |
| 18:17.53 | Ennea | i'm happy WoW has it. it's been so much fun over the years already, and still is |
| 18:19.20 | TSquare | yea, I don't know of very many games that allow the level of customization that WoW has |
| 18:19.48 | Ennea | i don't think there are any |
| 18:19.55 | Mr_Rabies | starsiege tribes and tribes 2 had some insane ui customization for an fps |
| 18:20.02 | Ennea | ah, i never played those |
| 18:20.06 | Mr_Rabies | especially for the time period |
| 18:20.08 | Ennea | heard lots of good things about them though |
| 18:21.15 | Mr_Rabies | by default you could move any of the ui elements around but it also had a scripting language for custom stuff |
| 18:21.28 | Mr_Rabies | https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iF-l-70n8Z8/maxresdefault.jpg there's a mix of custom and built in stuff |
| 18:21.47 | Mr_Rabies | https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4l6r0S4unac/maxresdefault.jpg ditto here |
| 18:21.52 | Ennea | sounds pretty neat |
| 18:22.32 | Ennea | does anybody know what initially prompted blizz to make the ui api in WoW public and allow players to write their own addons? |
| 18:23.29 | Mr_Rabies | slouken did help port tribes 2 when he was at loki so there's a weird connection maybe :v |
| 18:23.50 | Meorawr | Is there any public information on how the UI is even handled in other games like OW/D3? Is it all a custom backend for each one, or is there some internal library shared across the games? |
| 18:24.27 | Ennea | the framework is pretty powerful and versatile, so i'd expect the other games to also use it at least |
| 18:25.24 | TSquare | Actually, each game is very different and has it's own UI frame system |
| 18:25.51 | Ennea | for real? hm |
| 18:25.58 | Ennea | surprising! |
| 18:26.31 | TSquare | before the "Age of Unity" very, VERY few games shared any code. Even within the same company |
| 18:27.18 | TSquare | I guess Unreal, and ID, were the pre-cursors |
| 18:27.37 | Ennea | unreal for sure ^^ |
| 18:27.54 | TSquare | but most Triple-A games made their own engines |
| 18:28.05 | Ennea | and id's engines? geez. it's crazy that the latest call of duty still has code left from the quake 3 engine |
| 18:28.26 | Meorawr | If it ain't broke... |
| 18:28.36 | Ennea | well, broke is relative i guess ;p |
| 18:29.00 | Ennea | they did an engine revamp for the latest cod, and many media outlets called this a "new engine" |
| 18:29.17 | Ennea | but strafe/circle jumping still works, as it did in older cod games. which is definitely a leftover vom quake 3 |
| 18:29.31 | Ennea | which makes it clear it wasn't an entire rewrite |
| 18:32.29 | Meorawr | Well movement is a core element of the gameplay that shouldn't really ever be something you think about, 'cause if you do it's likely because you had an expectation but the on-screen result was you diving off a cliff. Touching that code would risk people saying "the movement in this game sucks, <previous game> was better" if you make any noticeable change. |
| 18:33.35 | Ennea | yea, that's a good point |
| 18:40.31 | Ennea | is SendAddonMessage's max message length the same 255 that SendChatMessage has also? |
| 18:41.21 | Meorawr | Wiki says 250. |
| 18:41.55 | Ennea | oh, it does.. |
| 18:42.06 | Ennea | i was being lazy and did a ctrl-f for "length" and couldn't find it :D |
| 18:42.08 | Ennea | thanks |
| 19:18.01 | znf | Crosshash, you around? |
| 19:19.44 | znf | if not, when you are, can I message you? |
| 19:21.46 | Crosshash | What's up? |
| 19:32.30 | *** join/#wowuidev charh (~charh@unaffiliated/charh) |
| 19:37.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Timosh (~Discord@host-95-142-47-227.hosted-by-vdsina.ru) |
| 19:39.38 | Timosh | Can i ask questions about friendly nameplates, or new lead dont know about them p |
| 19:41.38 | Timosh | And can i get banned for working friendly nameplates or not? |
| 19:42.43 | foxlit | you can be banned for anything. |
| 19:43.19 | znf | can we ask the question on when the new system will be in? :P |
| 19:43.29 | foxlit | "are we there yet?" |
| 19:43.55 | Ennea | flashbacks to annoying my parents with that question |
| 19:44.44 | foxlit | my impression is that they're never going to unforbid nameplaces because the anchoring restriction isn't actually enough. |
| 19:45.12 | znf | I'd be happy if they'd allow some sort of template that you can adjust some variables during combat? |
| 19:45.26 | znf | ie: I just want "Name Only" nameplates to work in raid |
| 19:45.36 | znf | the ones that KuiNamePlates have |
| 19:46.02 | Timosh | Change text color is hard, even for blizzard |
| 19:47.58 | Timosh | But not for russian hacker |
| 19:48.43 | Timosh | No no no, lua unlockers |
| 19:50.06 | Ennea | i lost track a little. what restrictions do nameplates have on retail? |
| 19:50.22 | foxlit | same as classic. |
| 19:50.29 | Ennea | hm |
| 19:50.32 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> I don't see how the anchoring system isn't enough.. you can't draw from one plate to the other so making the lines |
| 19:50.33 | Ennea | might be more than i'm aware of? |
| 19:50.33 | Mr_Rabies | you basically cannot touch friendly nameplates at all anymore as i understand it |
| 19:50.42 | Ennea | oh.. |
| 19:50.46 | Ennea | for real? ._. |
| 19:50.55 | Mr_Rabies | well, in raids and stuff |
| 19:51.04 | Mr_Rabies | i dunno maybe someone more qualified has a better answer lol |
| 19:51.08 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> haven't be able to for 2 years or so in instances |
| 19:52.06 | Ennea | just in instances? |
| 19:52.10 | Ennea | what a weird restriction |
| 19:52.14 | Ennea | and then you can't do anything with them? |
| 19:52.56 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> nope they are restricted.. you can do some cvars but that's it. |
| 19:53.09 | Ennea | so what happens if you try touching them? |
| 19:53.23 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> just says they are forbidden |
| 19:53.48 | Ennea | lame |
| 19:53.54 | Ennea | what was the reasoning for that restriction? |
| 19:54.14 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> Attempt to access forbidden object from code tainted by an AddOn |
| 19:54.37 | foxlit | "you can't draw from one plate to the other so making the lines" << I think you can recover (the anchor-restricted) nameplate positions relatively easily, and hence draw anything you want, but I'm disinclined to write the code. |
| 19:55.04 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760916448 |
| 19:55.37 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> https://www.wowhead.com/news=260801/addons-friendly-nameplates-in-patch-7-2 |
| 19:55.39 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> that link sorry |
| 19:56.00 | znf | Ennea, basically - there were some fights where you had to stack together with another "marked" person in order to "avoid" a mechanic |
| 19:56.06 | znf | or, well, "lessen" a mechanic |
| 19:56.12 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> I wouldn't want to write the code ð |
| 19:56.31 | znf | So back then, russians made an addon that would draw a huge arror from your nameplate to your "buddy"'s nameplate |
| 19:56.40 | znf | which trivialised the mechanic completely |
| 19:57.03 | Ennea | ahh |
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| 19:57.32 | znf | I can't recall the specifics, I wasn't doing that boss on mythic |
| 19:57.34 | Ennea | and blizzard's solution was just to disallow touching nameplates? lol |
| 19:57.44 | Ennea | that makes me sad :< |
| 19:58.03 | znf | well, that was just one of the offenders |
| 19:58.07 | znf | I'm sure they were more |
| 19:58.21 | Mr_Rabies | they've been very heavy handed with disabling functionality when it gets exploited nowadays |
| 19:58.26 | Ennea | :/ |
| 19:58.52 | Mr_Rabies | like sending chat messages is limited on both classic and bfa etc |
| 19:58.53 | znf | what was the camera feature back in WoTLK that got killed? |
| 19:59.07 | Mr_Rabies | i think you could draw in 3d space in wrath? |
| 19:59.09 | znf | that addon, AVR Mod? Or something? |
| 19:59.11 | znf | Yeah, you could |
| 19:59.15 | Ennea | yea, depth functions |
| 19:59.23 | Ennea | killed the addon that made distant nameplates smaller, too :/ |
| 19:59.39 | Ennea | Mr_Rabies, what about sending chat messages is restricted again? |
| 19:59.40 | znf | because addons were allowed to grab proper camera info/position |
| 20:00.07 | znf | So addons started drawing out range of abilities :D |
| 20:00.19 | Mr_Rabies | that goes a bit above what i know but i know a lot of stuff recently got hardware restricted etc |
| 20:01.33 | Mr_Rabies | and addon communication got somewhat nerfed on both i believe? |
| 20:01.40 | Mr_Rabies | w/m |
| 20:02.03 | znf | See around https://youtu.be/sm2jr9s2iro?t=241 |
| 20:02.19 | Ennea | yea, that was crazy |
| 20:02.26 | Ennea | but also cool as hell |
| 20:03.18 | Mr_Rabies | back in the day when people had a huge black bar at the bottom of their screen for some reason |
| 20:03.30 | Ennea | friend of mine still does that |
| 20:03.32 | Ennea | i don't get it |
| 20:03.58 | znf | viewports! |
| 20:04.01 | znf | I still don't get it |
| 20:04.16 | Mr_Rabies | like i could see messing with viewports and putting a bunch of UI stuff on another monitor or something |
| 20:04.23 | Mr_Rabies | but i don't even know if you can do that |
| 20:04.43 | znf | you can |
| 20:04.52 | znf | Someone did that on 2 monitors, iirc |
| 20:05.09 | Ennea | that sounds annoying to use tbh |
| 20:06.06 | Mr_Rabies | well definitely not everything |
| 20:06.32 | Mr_Rabies | but nonessential stuff for fights like chat, minimap, full buff bar etc |
| 20:07.37 | Ennea | yea, i thought about that also |
| 20:07.57 | Ennea | but then i wouldn't wanna look at my other screen all the time trying to see if there are mining nodes nearby |
| 20:08.05 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 20:08.11 | Mr_Rabies | i really miss the minimap "hud" stuff |
| 20:08.16 | Mr_Rabies | that was so nice for gathering herbs |
| 20:08.18 | Ennea | hm? what stuff? |
| 20:08.45 | Mr_Rabies | like being able to draw a second minimap with all the textures gone but still showing herb nodes, etc |
| 20:08.57 | Mr_Rabies | on the full screen |
| 20:08.58 | Ennea | oh, that was a thing? must've missed it |
| 20:09.13 | Ennea | should still be able to do that with the existing minimap though, right? |
| 20:09.14 | TukuiDevs | <Azilroka> yea I hate that I can't draw a second one anymore |
| 20:09.16 | Ennea | so you could add a toggle |
| 20:09.16 | Mr_Rabies | that plus gathermate plus routes was incredible |
| 20:09.34 | znf | yup, routes+gathermate was nice |
| 20:09.39 | Ennea | anchor minimap to center, set a somewhat low alpha, make it huge |
| 20:09.44 | Mr_Rabies | https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0Tshr0i_8V0/hqdefault.jpg |
| 20:09.45 | znf | you could draw a hud and follow the line mindlessly :D |
| 20:09.58 | Ennea | well, i can understand why that got restricted :p |
| 20:10.20 | Mr_Rabies | i really don't think it was for farming purposes i think it was AVR-type stuff that restricted it |
| 20:11.18 | Mr_Rabies | https://media.forgecdn.net/avatars/63/397/636142350538022445.jpg |
| 20:11.19 | Mr_Rabies | wow |
| 20:11.27 | Mr_Rabies | i never had this, but i did have the first style one |
| 20:11.30 | Funkeh` | TSquare: congrats, but why do you think OW shouldn't have addons? I assume this is because of Overwatch 2 dev, of which the main feature is PvE, which eliminates the PvP worry... |
| 20:12.04 | Ennea | Funkeh`, ui mods in a competitive fps game with an api like WoW's would be easily abusable, or heavily restricted |
| 20:12.23 | Ennea | and both cases are not super nice, so.. better not do it at all? ^^ |
| 20:12.50 | Funkeh` | what both cases? you didn't mention anything I didn't already mention in bringing it up |
| 20:12.55 | Mr_Rabies | tf2 has some pretty good ui mods but tf2 also has player servers and stuff so |
| 20:13.28 | Mr_Rabies | different style, more consumer-friendly |
| 20:13.38 | Ennea | Funkeh`, a system that's easily abusable is obviously not something blizzard wants |
| 20:13.49 | Ennea | a system that's heavily restricted is not gonna be worth much, so why spend time introducing it? |
| 20:14.02 | Funkeh` | a fuckign blender is easily abusable, what's your point |
| 20:14.37 | Ennea | hm |
| 20:14.49 | Ennea | i guess just that there are not nearly as many use cases for user written ui addons in overwatch as there are in WoW |
| 20:15.07 | Ennea | so putting in the effort to develop and provide such a system to players is not worth the time/effort/money you need to put into it |
| 20:15.21 | Funkeh` | you can say that for literally every game, you don't know until they've been written, and that's why WoW has implemented mmany aspects from addons |
| 20:15.41 | Funkeh` | and that doesn't apply to just WoW, it applies to basically every piece of reasonably open software |
| 20:15.49 | Mr_Rabies | tbh i'm honestly surprised warcraft 3 is getting custom ui stuff |
| 20:15.57 | Funkeh` | You don't know how something can be extended unless you let people try |
| 20:16.06 | Mr_Rabies | with blizzard's recent attitude about them i almost felt like they would eventually entirely remove ui customization in wow |
| 20:16.10 | Ennea | i would agree with you, but ow is an fps. give me software and a way to extend it and i can probably think of something i could add |
| 20:16.15 | Funkeh` | and then, like Dota2, you can monetize it |
| 20:16.26 | Funkeh` | so to say there's no reward... |
| 20:16.27 | Ennea | but for ow, what other data would you provide via an addon api besides the stuff the default ui already has? |
| 20:16.38 | Ennea | kills and deaths? blizz is specifically withholding that kind of info |
| 20:16.42 | Funkeh` | that's just your lack of creativity :D |
| 20:16.54 | Ennea | you could add team ult status to the hud |
| 20:17.01 | Ennea | as to not having to check the scoreboard constantly |
| 20:17.05 | Ennea | that would be cool i guess |
| 20:17.25 | Ennea | and move around/restyle existing elements |
| 20:18.02 | Funkeh` | ANYWAY, in my original point I raised that the focus of OW2 is PvE, where competitive advantage is far less of a concern |
| 20:18.46 | Ennea | isn't it gonna be mixed pve and pvp? ^^ |
| 20:18.48 | Ennea | but yea, good point |
| 20:19.26 | Ennea | i might be a little too salty for ow nowadays. hate that it went to shit |
| 20:19.50 | Mr_Rabies | tbh i think they're just trying to avoid a left for dead 2 situation where they're acting like an expansion is a full game and it splits the community |
| 20:20.14 | Mr_Rabies | if they thought they could get away with splitting OW multiplayer they certainly would have |
| 20:20.25 | Ennea | considering that ow2 is supposed to have "crossplay" with ow1's pvp and you'll have your cosmetics transferred to ow2.. i don't see it |
| 20:20.33 | Ennea | they could just add a pve expansion to overwatch |
| 20:21.37 | Funkeh` | Considering even they're not quite sure exactly how it's going to work, it's safe to say it's not 100% decided |
| 20:22.00 | Funkeh` | but since I doubt we will even see it until 2021, that's not much of a worry |
| 20:23.03 | Mr_Rabies | i doubt that they'd wait that long after announcing it |
| 20:23.16 | Mr_Rabies | it really is pretty much just a pve expansion |
| 20:23.46 | znf | <Mr_Rabies> with blizzard's recent attitude about them i almost felt like they would eventually entirely remove ui customization in wow |
| 20:24.01 | znf | I mean, if I have to use the default UI for one day, I will simply stop playing, completely |
| 20:24.06 | Funkeh` | what do you mean wait that long? The announcement was just so people aren't surprised when OW is completely stale for the next year |
| 20:24.19 | Mr_Rabies | (it's been stale longer than that) |
| 20:24.34 | znf | I don't think you get the meaning of "Stale" :P |
| 20:24.43 | Funkeh` | Um no? They only just drramatically changed the entire matching system |
| 20:24.44 | znf | when was Sigma released? |
| 20:25.00 | znf | And the forced 2-2-2 queue was recently implemented |
| 20:25.02 | Funkeh` | and they're not even finished re-balancing the characters from that change |
| 20:25.07 | znf | like Funkeh` said |
| 20:25.45 | Mr_Rabies | you can toast stale bread to make it taste better but doesn't change the fact that it's stale :p |
| 20:26.06 | znf | strongly disagree |
| 20:26.07 | Funkeh` | What would make a PvP game not stale to you? |
| 20:26.12 | znf | the meta changes all the time, with every change they make |
| 20:26.27 | znf | I used to love playing as Bridgitte before the change |
| 20:26.44 | znf | Now I find that hero completely useless (ie: doesn't suit my playstyle at all, anymore) |
| 20:26.54 | Funkeh` | New maps, done, new characters, done, entirely new gameplay style done, new ui elements, done |
| 20:26.55 | Mr_Rabies | i dunno Funkeh` all i know is i was bored of overwatch far sooner than any other fps i've ever played and i really regret buying it |
| 20:26.59 | Funkeh` | nah fam that's stale af |
| 20:27.21 | znf | I honestly loveD playing it |
| 20:27.31 | znf | the forced 2-2-2 made me a bit annoyed, to be fair |
| 20:27.38 | Mr_Rabies | the new characters honestly made it worse for me because i didn't feel like any niches needed to be filled so it just watered everything down |
| 20:27.43 | Funkeh` | okay I don't know what you're expecting exactly to prevent you getting bored |
| 20:27.54 | Mr_Rabies | i was bored like 2 weeks in so |
| 20:27.56 | Funkeh` | CS:GO still has dedust2 as the most popular nap |
| 20:28.03 | Funkeh` | map* |
| 20:28.49 | Mr_Rabies | i think i'm just done with matchmaking-based fpses |
| 20:29.11 | Ennea | csgo has an incredibly broad field of potential player skill, and most games aren't like any others |
| 20:29.26 | Ennea | compared to that, overwatch is relatively.. shallow |
| 20:29.36 | Ennea | not because of a lack of options |
| 20:29.44 | Ennea | but because of there typically being one powerful meta |
| 20:29.51 | Funkeh` | how do you define skill in CS:Go, if you can memorize the recoil patterns? |
| 20:30.04 | Ennea | that's part of it, but only a small one |
| 20:30.20 | Ennea | aim, handling player movement, positioning |
| 20:30.21 | Ennea | all that |
| 20:30.27 | Funkeh` | aim? lol |
| 20:30.29 | Funkeh` | that's new |
| 20:30.32 | Ennea | is it? ._. |
| 20:30.39 | Funkeh` | no... |
| 20:31.44 | Funkeh` | I'd define skill in an FPS as the more things you have to keep track of at the same time |
| 20:32.11 | Funkeh` | Then you have the danger of overloading the player, which means the top-tier area of skill has far fewer players |
| 20:32.13 | Ennea | that's also part of it, yea, but not all of it |
| 20:32.16 | Mr_Rabies | i just got really tired of overwatch's whole vibe tbh |
| 20:32.25 | Funkeh` | SO I'd say Overwatch has for more skill potential |
| 20:33.05 | Funkeh` | And if you compared OW classes to CS roles, it's far more involved in your teamwork |
| 20:33.22 | Ennea | i always feel like the heroes and their skills simplify everything a little |
| 20:33.24 | Funkeh` | So maybe you just don't think relying on team mates? |
| 20:33.25 | Ennea | might be wrong, or just me. i dunno |
| 20:33.30 | znf | not really |
| 20:33.43 | Ennea | can't compare ow roles to cs "roles" |
| 20:33.47 | znf | There's different skills involved with different heroes |
| 20:34.21 | znf | And different "gotchas" |
| 20:34.21 | Andols | TSquare: Thanks for hanging here :) |
| 20:34.23 | Ennea | znf, yea, but in contrast when playing cs, you can technically do everything |
| 20:34.25 | Mr_Rabies | i just felt like i was the only competent player on my team about 90% of the time i played overwatch, in older games you could at least just jump to another server if things are imbalanced, or request a team shuffle etc |
| 20:34.51 | Vardex | I think that Overwatch is not punitive enough for mistake |
| 20:34.57 | Ennea | playing rifle all the time but your teammate is dead next to you and dropped their awp. so you go pick it up because you know the last remaining enemy is, i dunno, somewhere far or whatever |
| 20:35.05 | Mr_Rabies | like tribes and tribes 2 are so incredibly team-dependent but the learning curve was so high that you'd rarely just have the absolute morons you get in overwatch |
| 20:35.10 | znf | Ennea, I think that's actually the Good Thing |
| 20:35.14 | Ennea | also, one thing that really grinded my fucking gears |
| 20:35.20 | Ennea | blizzard insisting on turning ow into an esports title |
| 20:35.24 | Ennea | but it's so goddamn boring to watch |
| 20:35.30 | Funkeh` | I think the fact that you felt like "the oncly competent player" just proves that OW takes more skill |
| 20:35.39 | Mr_Rabies | it really doesn't |
| 20:35.41 | Mr_Rabies | at all |
| 20:35.52 | Mr_Rabies | it just rewards you regardless of skill level |
| 20:35.58 | Funkeh` | How does it reward you? |
| 20:36.00 | znf | not really? |
| 20:36.04 | Funkeh` | with a loss? |
| 20:36.04 | znf | ?! |
| 20:36.20 | Funkeh` | if you rely more on your team mates, and your team mates suck, you lose... |
| 20:36.22 | Mr_Rabies | if you're dumb the entire psychology of the game is based on OKAY YOU LOST BUT YOU TRIED KIDDO HERE'S A GOLD STAR |
| 20:36.25 | Ennea | i guess you could consider the medals system rewards |
| 20:36.29 | Ennea | and the medals are flawed as hell |
| 20:36.31 | Funkeh` | In CS you can carry your entire team |
| 20:37.13 | Funkeh` | what is "the gold star" in this context? |
| 20:37.25 | znf | I really like the way Overwatch works, except the 2-2-2 forced change, which I really hate when it comes to random queues |
| 20:37.30 | Mr_Rabies | i feel like overwatch is so accessible that the skill floor is so much lower than most games (i haven't played many free to play games like fortnite etc so i'm sure that's even worse there) |
| 20:37.39 | znf | Mr_Rabies, it's not |
| 20:37.46 | znf | at lower levels, yeah, maybe |
| 20:37.50 | Funkeh` | accessible... how? you're not explaining this |
| 20:38.01 | Mr_Rabies | then why did every game i get into feel like everyone was playing with their monitor turned off |
| 20:38.04 | znf | but it takes timing of abilities properly, across 30++ heroes |
| 20:38.11 | Funkeh` | CS is free so it's not more accessible in that regard |
| 20:38.12 | znf | That is EXACTLY why |
| 20:38.32 | znf | The fact that people didn't randomly shoot at stuff and won, is most proof you need |
| 20:39.00 | Mr_Rabies | yeah but i feel like the other team is also terrible, just usually they feel like they have their monitor turned on |
| 20:39.15 | Funkeh` | How does being shit at the game mean it's more accessible? |
| 20:39.23 | znf | I could play a stupid junkrat and just shoot randomly, sure that might get me a kill or two, but that's not gonna win the game unless the other team is stupid and/or my team mates are much better |
| 20:39.25 | Mr_Rabies | so i just lose and lose and feel super frustrated because i can't just find a comfy server |
| 20:39.40 | Mr_Rabies | because normally shitty players get bullied into uninstalling the game |
| 20:39.57 | Funkeh` | So it has a better reporting system than CS is what you're saying? |
| 20:40.00 | Mr_Rabies | instead the mean folks get banned and the morons just slowly take over |
| 20:40.14 | Funkeh` | where toxic people are the ones that uninstall instead of the "shit" players |
| 20:40.16 | Mr_Rabies | i mean i don't really like csgo either, i was more of a cs 1.6 guy |
| 20:40.20 | Ennea | ow's biggest problem is something you can't do anything about, which it shares with all other competitive matchmaking based games |
| 20:40.30 | Ennea | you end up getting shit mates and can't do anything about it |
| 20:40.34 | Ennea | cs, ow, lol, whatever |
| 20:40.36 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 20:40.41 | Mr_Rabies | i'm done with those types of games in general |
| 20:40.49 | Ennea | there's always a chance of getting mates that are not good. they can even be good mechanically |
| 20:40.54 | Ennea | if they aren't it voice it ain't helping |
| 20:40.55 | Mr_Rabies | overwatch was the final nail in the coffin, i bought it because finally an fps where i didn't have to grind for the good guns |
| 20:40.57 | Funkeh` | Ok so I was right, you just don't like needing to rely on others |
| 20:41.04 | Ennea | oh, i'm fine with that |
| 20:41.08 | Mr_Rabies | and then running into the absolute paste-eaters that play overwatch just killed it for me |
| 20:41.16 | Ennea | but you occasionally get teammates that don't want to work with you, Funkeh` |
| 20:41.21 | Ennea | and what am i supposed to do then? |
| 20:41.29 | Ennea | i circumvented this in csgo because i have enough friends for a full team |
| 20:41.31 | Funkeh` | If you mean maliciously, report them |
| 20:41.34 | Ennea | but i don't in ow, so it got frustrating |
| 20:41.40 | Ennea | no, not maliciously |
| 20:41.44 | Ennea | but say they aren't in voice |
| 20:41.49 | Ennea | i can't properly coordinate with them |
| 20:41.55 | Meorawr | Right click > Avoid as teammate |
| 20:41.59 | Ennea | i tell them to please join voice and i'm just met with.. nothing |
| 20:41.59 | Meorawr | Then they're not an issue for a week |
| 20:42.06 | Ennea | Meorawr, i can do that with how many players again? two? |
| 20:42.18 | Meorawr | Three |
| 20:42.24 | Ennea | i don't care about matching with them again, there are enough players that it's unlikely anyway |
| 20:42.32 | Ennea | but at that moment, i'm in a game where i have to deal with it |
| 20:42.37 | Ennea | but can't do anything about it actually |
| 20:42.39 | Ennea | which is frustrating |
| 20:42.48 | Ennea | playing with randoms is just.. meh |
| 20:43.22 | Mr_Rabies | pretty much if i can't join a comfy toxic server and shittalk all day i'm not interested in buying it anymore |
| 20:43.43 | Funkeh` | Are you enjoying the new CoD |
| 20:44.00 | Ennea | i am actually |
| 20:44.00 | Mr_Rabies | i don't think that has player-hosted servers does it? |
| 20:44.01 | Ennea | but it's.. uhh |
| 20:44.08 | Ennea | a love hate relationship |
| 20:44.09 | Meorawr | I think calling competitive mode "competitive" is the main issue; it makes people take it a bit too seriously when really what people would rather have is organised pugs. |
| 20:44.14 | Ennea | but that's what i expect from cod :) |
| 20:44.39 | Ennea | cod works, depending on some parameters. tdm is usually fine |
| 20:44.41 | Funkeh` | no it doesn't have player hosted servers, but it does have... hosted servers |
| 20:44.51 | Ennea | can't play hq or kc with randoms, lack of coordination |
| 20:44.56 | Ennea | dom kinda works with randoms |
| 20:44.59 | Ennea | but still better with friends |
| 20:45.07 | Ennea | uncoordinated randoms are again a problem |
| 20:45.29 | Ennea | but that's a design issue that rewards not playing the objective. killstreaks should be scorestreaks again imo |
| 20:45.33 | Ennea | let's see if IW will change this |
| 20:45.41 | Mr_Rabies | i really liked the CoD games at least until MW2 but regrinding for the good guns got boring |
| 20:45.56 | Funkeh` | Just remove points gained from kills and hide the KD ratio |
| 20:46.16 | Ennea | k/d ratio is actually not even in the scoreboard in the new cod |
| 20:46.18 | Ennea | until the end of the game |
| 20:46.35 | Ennea | .. actually, i think deaths are now in it again as of the latest patch, so technically it is |
| 20:46.36 | Ennea | anyway |
| 20:46.46 | Ennea | i don't think having those stats does it |
| 20:47.00 | Mr_Rabies | i like how tribes handled it since capture the flag was the default game mode |
| 20:47.01 | Ennea | camping just guarantees a higher killcount, which makes sense because killstreaks. i think |
| 20:47.08 | Funkeh` | the scoreboard is ranked based on score, adn you gain score for kills |
| 20:47.24 | Ennea | you also gain score for playing the objective |
| 20:47.27 | Mr_Rabies | it had a dedicated suicide button because dying was not really punished other than having to wait for respawn |
| 20:47.27 | Funkeh` | (on hq, snd, etc) |
| 20:47.38 | Ennea | i typically have more score in objective modes than people that just camp |
| 20:47.43 | Ennea | sure, they have more kills, but so what? |
| 20:48.32 | Ennea | but yea, overall, i really enjoy it. feels like a nice one again. ttk is a bit too low imo, but i can live with that. the guns feel like, the gun customization is amazing. the sound design is beautiful |
| 20:48.37 | Ennea | the maps are.. okay |
| 20:49.27 | Funkeh` | So I think we can all safely say this isn't a problem with OW but certain players just enjoy games which put less focus on team cooperation |
| 20:49.46 | Ennea | oh, i thoroughly enjoyed ow |
| 20:49.50 | Ennea | it was a good game |
| 20:50.06 | Ennea | it just turned to shit at some point, but i doubt it was a single change or a single aspect of the game |
| 20:50.09 | Ennea | can't pinpoint it |
| 20:50.46 | Mr_Rabies | i actually enjoy games where teammates have to cooperate but i got frustrated because they either refused to or were too stupid to know what to do, Funkeh` |
| 20:50.53 | Funkeh` | when they started banning all the toxic players which were bullying the shit players into uninstalling? |
| 20:51.22 | Ennea | nah |
| 20:51.24 | Mr_Rabies | tribes was my fps of choice during the golden age of fpses and it requires more team cooperation than almost anything i've ever played |
| 20:51.26 | Ennea | banning toxic players is fine |
| 20:51.36 | Ennea | one thing i really don't like in retrospect is the amount of new heroes they added |
| 20:51.46 | Mr_Rabies | you need coordinated defense and offensive teams in every match |
| 20:51.47 | Ennea | the heroes that existed at release were all great |
| 20:51.49 | Ennea | and so was ana |
| 20:51.55 | Ennea | but after those, i'm just not sure |
| 20:52.01 | Mr_Rabies | but the learning curve was high so you didn't have a lot of people that were just totally lost |
| 20:52.02 | Ennea | so much cc, too |
| 20:52.19 | Ennea | i constantly have my tank friend raging because he's stunned and booped and whatnot all the time ;p |
| 20:53.09 | Funkeh` | Mr_Rabies: tribes was in what 2002? Sounds like you're nostalgic for a time when fewer people were on the internet |
| 20:53.15 | Mr_Rabies | i am |
| 20:53.20 | Mr_Rabies | absolutely |
| 20:53.48 | Funkeh` | My point being that has nothing to do with accessibility, unless you mean the accessibility of the internet itself |
| 20:53.57 | Funkeh` | which isn't OW's fault |
| 20:54.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~Ketho@2a02:a44e:ac87:1:6da1:f42e:1d20:135c) |
| 20:54.17 | Mr_Rabies | that's a whole other discussion but yeah i also take issue with that |
| 20:54.42 | Mr_Rabies | i think they're seperate issues though |
| 20:54.55 | Mr_Rabies | i just hate that i'm forced to play with idiots unless i want to grind ranks in competitive mode |
| 20:55.16 | Mr_Rabies | i just want a comfy game where i can choose the environment that suits me |
| 20:55.45 | Funkeh` | That's what clans are for |
| 20:56.09 | Mr_Rabies | play on a newbie server when i'm first learning, and then move to more competitive waters when i feel like it |
| 20:56.26 | Meorawr | Could just play for the fun of it and pretend that there's no ranking system. |
| 20:56.42 | znf | nothing stops you from playing QP :P |
| 20:56.45 | Funkeh` | ^ |
| 20:56.59 | Funkeh` | I don't play competetive in OW at all, I don't even play QP |
| 20:57.01 | znf | where ranking doesn't matter (well, it does, a bit, internaly) |
| 20:57.04 | Mr_Rabies | play on a christian server with a church in the map rotation for some reason one day, play on Kult of Sludge Hateserver one day, whatever |
| 20:57.17 | znf | I used to play a lot of QP, before the 2-2-2 change |
| 20:57.18 | Funkeh` | I play 4v4 or 3v3.. because... I like being ably to carry others |
| 20:57.21 | Mr_Rabies | i mostly just played QP znf, 90% of my overwatch played time was before competitve was even added |
| 20:57.25 | znf | like, all I played was QP |
| 20:58.03 | Mr_Rabies | but you were penalized for leaving matches, and you were constantly reshuffled to play with totally different people |
| 20:58.17 | znf | you can group up |
| 20:58.25 | znf | there's even a "premade finder" sorts of |
| 20:58.27 | Funkeh` | every comp mode in every game should punish you for leaving |
| 20:58.27 | Mr_Rabies | you can but i mean like both sides |
| 20:58.33 | Funkeh` | how can you say that's a bad thing |
| 20:58.53 | Mr_Rabies | (3:57 pm) <Mr_Rabies> i mostly just played QP znf, 90% of my overwatch played time was before competitve was even added |
| 20:59.07 | Funkeh` | you were never punsihed for leaving QP |
| 20:59.19 | Mr_Rabies | they said it'd impact your queue time and stuff |
| 20:59.24 | Stanzilla | TSquare: ohh sad to see you go! Are you going to work on Lua stuff in PRISM or does it use something else? |
| 20:59.25 | Mr_Rabies | if you did it too much |
| 20:59.35 | znf | wait |
| 20:59.37 | znf | what's a priest |
| 20:59.43 | Funkeh` | not to my knowledge |
| 20:59.59 | znf | what's a PRISM |
| 21:00.05 | Funkeh` | NSA |
| 21:00.33 | Ennea | QP after release was fun |
| 21:00.46 | Ennea | my favorite moment was a 6 stack of tracers gunning me down when i was playing junkrat |
| 21:00.52 | Ennea | then all 6 of them dying to my bombs |
| 21:01.12 | Funkeh` | you can still do that in arcade |
| 21:01.20 | Ennea | yea, i'm aware |
| 21:01.31 | Mr_Rabies | yeah i think i played a lot until ana was added, then msotly just putzed around until the arcade hit the live servers |
| 21:01.44 | Mr_Rabies | putzed around in that for a bit and then uninstalled it |
| 21:01.45 | Vardex | PRISM is a code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from various U.S. internet companies. |
| 21:01.47 | Vardex | Hmmmmm |
| 21:01.48 | Meorawr | I'll still to this day have at least one game in a week where I forget the on-death bombs exist. |
| 21:02.14 | Funkeh` | Vardex: yeah all the data that anti cheats like Warden collect goes straight to NSA servers |
| 21:02.39 | Funkeh` | That's why you have to firewall all those NSA IPs and you're protected |
| 21:02.52 | Mr_Rabies | i guess my issue is grinding to have fun in an fps is a waste of my time, if i wanted to grind before i had fun i'd just keep playing wow |
| 21:03.24 | Mr_Rabies | but pretty much my solution to have competent teammates and enemies was to play competitive until i fell into my rank, and then it would reset with each season or whatever |
| 21:03.44 | Mr_Rabies | i just didn't really enjoy any part of overwatch shortly after the inital patches |
| 21:03.49 | Funkeh` | Well, I'll agre with you on that |
| 21:04.00 | Funkeh` | The ranking system is not good |
| 21:04.04 | Mr_Rabies | i was super happy having an fps i didn't have to grind for and then they added grinding |
| 21:04.12 | Mr_Rabies | not for guns, but for ranking |
| 21:04.55 | Mr_Rabies | i had a lot of fun playing lucio for a while since i could have fun regardless of how bad the team was |
| 21:05.34 | Mr_Rabies | i could rack up a lot of kills while keeping folks alive and hopefully push stuff but it was just like a death by 1000 cuts thing |
| 21:05.43 | Mr_Rabies | if it had a real server browser i think i would enjoy it |
| 21:07.39 | Funkeh` | Well that brings me back to the original point of cuztomization, it's better to have it than not |
| 21:07.50 | Funkeh` | Unfortunately the majority of games prefer to close up these days |
| 21:07.56 | Ennea | are there any restrictions to how fast i can send addon messages via SendAddonMessage? |
| 21:08.01 | Mr_Rabies | it's a lot cheaper to do so |
| 21:08.03 | Ennea | should i sleep between sending multiple? |
| 21:08.14 | Funkeh` | No, you can send like 10 in one go |
| 21:08.19 | Ennea | hm |
| 21:08.21 | Ennea | i might need more |
| 21:08.37 | Funkeh` | You should probably use one of the libraries then |
| 21:08.42 | Mr_Rabies | but they're certianly missing out on people like myself that grew up playing games and enjoying how things used to be |
| 21:09.03 | Mr_Rabies | perfectly in their right to decide they don't need my money |
| 21:09.36 | Meorawr | I don't think they're omitting these things as an explicit choice, just that they want to take their time and make the right sort of changes. |
| 21:09.49 | Meorawr | I could see clans powered by the battle.net community backend being something already long in the pipeline. |
| 21:10.09 | Ennea | Funkeh`, what are my options for libs handling addon messages? |
| 21:10.31 | Funkeh` | Would be great, but I feel like every time they've tried to implement some form of social aspect, from the original WoW voice attempt, it's failed |
| 21:10.53 | Funkeh` | Which brings me back to adopting user created customizations such as addons like oQueue |
| 21:11.07 | Funkeh` | you see what becomes a hit and implement it directly improving your game |
| 21:11.36 | nebula | Ennea: https://wow.gamepedia.com/ChatThrottleLib#Notes_on_outbound_rate |
| 21:11.42 | Funkeh` | It's literally free R&D and Q&A |
| 21:11.49 | Ennea | nebula, ah, thank you |
| 21:12.04 | Meorawr | I kinda question the worth of the BN communities system as a whole anyway |
| 21:12.14 | Funkeh` | indeed |
| 21:12.41 | Funkeh` | You spend a whole lot of time and dev effort on something that you don't know was even wanted, vs implementing something already made popular by the community |
| 21:13.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Yuyuli (~Yuyuli@85-127-63-68.dsl.dynamic.surfer.at) |
| 21:14.08 | Mr_Rabies | we do use the wow community feature quite a bit for our guild |
| 21:14.25 | Mr_Rabies | we basically bring in a certain number of pugs for our farm runs as a recruitment measure |
| 21:14.35 | Mr_Rabies | because recruiting on-realm is impossible |
| 21:15.05 | Mr_Rabies | and we encourage people to join our community if they want to run with us again in the future |
| 21:15.31 | Mr_Rabies | if we're short on players for mythic we might try to reach out to the community, etc as well |
| 21:15.32 | nebula | if only they got it out with the voice rework before discord became the standard |
| 21:15.45 | Mr_Rabies | like half our guild transferred in from other servers lol |
| 21:15.49 | Funkeh` | why would that have mattered |
| 21:16.04 | Funkeh` | Discord doesn't become unusable when you're waiting in queue, the servers are down, etc |
| 21:16.30 | Meorawr | It has potential but I think it focuses too much on competing with external services rather than enabling on what being part of Battle.net could allow |
| 21:16.45 | nebula | eh? community stuff through the client works in those cases |
| 21:16.47 | Meorawr | First-class integration that'd allow you to have a single guild chat both in and out of the game, that sort of thing. |
| 21:16.48 | Mr_Rabies | the bnet community stuff is usable so long as you can login to the bnet app but it really just feels like a poor version of discord |
| 21:17.02 | Funkeh` | it all goes down when bnet goes down |
| 21:17.11 | Yuyuli | discord isn't without it's own issues |
| 21:17.19 | Yuyuli | breaks plenty of times |
| 21:17.21 | Mr_Rabies | yeah exactly so when stuff is getting ddosed etc you can still communicate with the guild etc |
| 21:17.30 | Funkeh` | discord you literally fix any issue by changing the region |
| 21:17.45 | Mr_Rabies | i'm the furthest from a fan of discord but its downtime is pretty low overall |
| 21:17.58 | Mr_Rabies | if people start sounding like daft punk switch server regions and you're gold |
| 21:18.29 | Yuyuli | sometime ago when we had a big secret, not sure which one we had like 1000 people in voice.. it was crazy times |
| 21:19.27 | Mr_Rabies | sounds like not much of a secret if everyone is piling in there |
| 21:19.28 | Mr_Rabies | ohhh |
| 21:19.33 | Mr_Rabies | secret finding discord probably lol |
| 21:19.36 | Funkeh` | yes |
| 21:19.37 | nebula | yea |
| 21:19.38 | Yuyuli | not sure why but the last few things they added haven't had so much traction |
| 21:19.41 | Mr_Rabies | that makes sense lol |
| 21:19.41 | Yuyuli | yes |
| 21:19.49 | Funkeh` | adn the discord people directly made changes in reaction to that server |
| 21:19.50 | Mr_Rabies | i was like wat how is that secret |
| 21:20.16 | Funkeh` | I don't see that happening on bnet with their "lol only 300 people per community" or whatever the max is |
| 21:21.01 | Yuyuli | the ingame community for that discord is pretty much ded, was never active to begin with though, nobody uses it |
| 21:21.29 | Yuyuli | everyone just uses discord |
| 21:21.38 | Funkeh` | I was planning on making an addon version checking community even before all their chat restrictions but didn't bother because of the user max |
| 21:23.27 | Yuyuli | the pet they added recently is also still unsovled and because it'sa pet not as many ppl actually bother |
| 21:24.31 | kd3 | is it actually solveable? last I heard the community talked to the keystone npc and then progress died |
| 21:25.22 | znf | that were 25 fun minutes on the first boss |
| 21:25.23 | Yuyuli | well it should be solveable |
| 21:25.50 | Yuyuli | but nobody has really any idea what the pepple laayout on the floor is really for |
| 21:26.22 | Yuyuli | i would assume you need to place the food in kara in particular order, then the cat shows up |
| 21:26.26 | Yuyuli | you click it to pet and you recieve pet |
| 21:26.28 | Yuyuli | but no idea |
| 21:26.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 21:27.50 | Yuyuli | they made it much harder to datamine the next quest completion is already the pet |
| 21:37.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~Ketho@2a02:a44e:ac87:1:6da1:f42e:1d20:135c) |
| 22:16.08 | *** join/#wowuidev charh (~charh@unaffiliated/charh) |
| 23:03.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Andols2 (~yaaic@2a00:801:340:5270:2310:51a5:6e6b:e7e3) |
