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| 00:20.57 | *** topic/#wowuidev is 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl |
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| 02:50.50 | MentalPower | So, Apple is deprecating OpenGL. Does WoW have a Metal backend already? |
| 03:20.40 | Torhal | MentalPower: It does. |
| 03:21.44 | Torhal | MentalPower: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1428sjc0q9p2c7y/Screenshot%202018-06-04%2022.21.39.png |
| 03:24.05 | Fisker | Hey Torhal |
| 03:24.27 | Torhal | Yo. |
| 03:26.14 | MentalPower | Cool! |
| 03:26.41 | Simca_ | blizzard is deprecating opengl amusingly |
| 03:27.00 | Simca_ | so it works out |
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| 05:11.30 | Fisker | So wait, the only supported graphics backend on Mac is gonna be Metal? |
| 05:11.49 | Fisker | And people are complaining about Microsoft buying Github |
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| 08:05.46 | nevcairiel | Blizzards OpenGL renderer has been an abandoned stepchild for years anyway, so they dont really care |
| 08:06.18 | nevcairiel | but i still think its a dumb move from Apple regardless, dumping the last bit of industry standard technologoy you supported |
| 08:08.09 | Shockah | it's more problematic for iOS i think (where they also deprecated OpenGL) |
| 08:08.56 | nevcairiel | well its an established fact that Apple doesnt actually care about its developers, they'll force any and all changes on you and force you to adapt |
| 08:13.25 | haste | I wonder if they will do the same as other stuff |
| 08:13.31 | haste | Deprecate it, but never actually remove it |
| 08:13.44 | foxlit | the number of programs that use opengl directly and couldn't adapt over a multi-year period seems miniscule. |
| 08:14.22 | nevcairiel | everyone "could" adapt, but if i'm writing a cross-platform thing suddenly thats no longer a possibility without a lot of Mac-specific stuff |
| 08:14.24 | haste | Also curious what mozilla will do with their WebRender now |
| 08:14.32 | haste | Since it only targets OpenGL |
| 08:15.11 | foxlit | nevcairiel: at the same time, nobody likes java apps. |
| 08:15.46 | nevcairiel | except the underlying tech in this case has no influence on the look and fool at all, a user would not notice nor care |
| 08:17.24 | foxlit | there's a weird disconnect between investing time to get platform look-and-feel right and not using platform-native APIs. |
| 08:17.51 | nevcairiel | this is 3d rendering, there is no native look and feel |
| 08:18.32 | nevcairiel | how your 3d scene looks doesnt change with which api you use to render it |
| 08:18.36 | foxlit | I kind of assume that an application does more than just display a teapot in a window. |
| 08:19.35 | nevcairiel | there is UI frameworks that abstract that stuff away from you |
| 08:19.49 | foxlit | there are 3D engines that abstract graphics stuff away from you as well |
| 08:20.30 | nevcairiel | if you write like an actual game, you might also use one of those |
| 08:23.41 | nevcairiel | and maybe someone comes up with an easier way to do that in the future, but swichting from doing OpenGL on your own to anything else is a huge investment, even more so if you need to maintain two things in the future |
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| 10:39.25 | VIad | I don't own a mac but what I've seen in pictures is that the graphics look a bit worse, and I wonder what the rendering engine plans are for bfa on macs. I kept hearing vulcan but unsure if bfa client has been ported to that yet for macs to use. |
| 10:40.05 | VIad | thought I read OpenCL being merged into vulcan as well. |
| 10:41.53 | Shockah | looks same as on Windows to me |
| 10:42.44 | VIad | maybe just some potato macs the screenshots originated from :P looked like vanilla wow to me heh |
| 10:46.06 | nevcairiel | Mac uses Metal, their own API |
| 10:46.12 | nevcairiel | no support for Vulkan |
| 10:46.24 | nevcairiel | except through third-party emulation layers that translate Vulkan to Metal |
| 10:48.03 | VIad | explains why flagging the game to use opengl looks broken, but doesnt actually like crash surprisingly :P |
| 10:48.57 | VIad | apple should get their shit together if they want people to dev for their platform, supporting at least vulcan seems smart if thats the future for opengl/cl |
| 10:49.09 | nevcairiel | the windows opengl renderer and osx opengl renderer were also "different" |
| 10:49.15 | nevcairiel | they never updated the windows version for years |
| 10:56.52 | Shockah | VIad, https://imgur.com/a/0jSA7va |
| 10:57.33 | Shockah | obviously i can't play on those settings on my MacBook Pro, because fps gets a bit low :S |
| 11:00.14 | Shockah | okay, maybe the tree from Val'sharah looks a bit worse on macOS |
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| 11:52.42 | Chipzz | VIad: broken? that's not even the half of it... |
| 11:52.57 | Chipzz | VIad: half of the ground effects do not display AT ALL in opengl |
| 11:53.07 | Chipzz | VIad: I had to quit raiding because of that |
| 11:53.21 | Chipzz | VIad: I was standing in shit but couldn't see I was standing in shit |
| 11:53.25 | Chipzz | fun for everyone |
| 11:53.34 | nevcairiel | its basically been unmaintained for years and there was no official way to even activate it beyond manually editing config files |
| 11:53.41 | nevcairiel | you get what you get when you use it =p |
| 11:53.41 | Chipzz | uh no |
| 11:53.44 | Chipzz | that's wrong |
| 11:53.55 | Chipzz | you can easily select it from the dropdown |
| 11:54.01 | Chipzz | no config editting involved |
| 11:54.08 | Chipzz | that's flat-out wrong what you're saying |
| 11:54.36 | nevcairiel | its not been in the drop down for ever |
| 11:54.41 | nevcairiel | certainly isnt on live right now |
| 11:54.51 | Chipzz | wanna bet? |
| 11:54.57 | nevcairiel | i just checked this second |
| 11:55.06 | nevcairiel | dx9 and dx11 in there |
| 11:55.08 | nevcairiel | nothing else |
| 11:57.47 | Chipzz | and I just checked |
| 11:57.50 | Chipzz | and it WAS there |
| 11:57.57 | Chipzz | but hey, you're on windows |
| 11:57.59 | Chipzz | so... |
| 11:58.08 | nevcairiel | obviously we're talking about the windows client |
| 11:58.15 | Chipzz | we WERE talking about macs, not windows |
| 11:58.22 | Chipzz | so your opinion doesn't really matter |
| 11:58.43 | Chipzz | no, this whole conversation was obviously about macs the whole time |
| 11:58.55 | nevcairiel | except on Windows opengl is actually broken |
| 11:58.56 | Chipzz | if you think differently then I suggest you check the backlog |
| 11:59.06 | nevcairiel | because it renders utter garbage |
| 11:59.12 | nevcairiel | and I know for a fact that VIad doesnt run a mac =p |
| 12:13.10 | [TOM_RUS] | opengl is gone |
| 12:13.22 | nevcairiel | in 8.0 for sure |
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| 12:13.55 | Chipzz | [TOM_RUS]: welcome to 4 hours ago ;P |
| 12:15.38 | Chipzz | what's also kinda sad is that with opengl dying the chance of ever getting a WoW native linux client (which was practically nil I suppose) has also vanished into thin air |
| 12:16.04 | nevcairiel | that was never really going to happen |
| 12:16.31 | Chipzz | I hear they had an internal Linux build at one point (several years ago) |
| 12:16.39 | nevcairiel | they did |
| 12:16.59 | Chipzz | but not sure why it never got released... probably quality problems |
| 12:17.19 | nevcairiel | probably not worth the cost to maintain it |
| 12:17.27 | nevcairiel | and once you release something taking it back is much harder |
| 12:17.37 | [TOM_RUS] | too many distros, shit compatibility? |
| 12:17.52 | Chipzz | not buying the maintenance cost TBH... probably shared 99% of code with mac cient |
| 12:17.55 | Chipzz | *client |
| 12:18.03 | Chipzz | [TOM_RUS]: static linking? |
| 12:18.22 | nevcairiel | there is still a lot of OS-specific stuff you need to handle |
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| 12:19.01 | nevcairiel | not to mention that it would also need b.net on linux |
| 12:19.10 | Chipzz | I would definitley argue that is very much NOT the case, sorry |
| 12:19.26 | nevcairiel | Then you haven't actually done that |
| 12:19.28 | Chipzz | my emulator runs on Linux and Mac without problems |
| 12:19.37 | Chipzz | I *HAVE* actually done that |
| 12:19.38 | nevcairiel | or you use some framework to hide that from you |
| 12:19.53 | Chipzz | yeah it's called OpenGL :P |
| 12:19.56 | Chipzz | (and GLUT) |
| 12:20.18 | Chipzz | but I could also have used SDL |
| 12:20.21 | nevcairiel | yeah they dont use anything like that |
| 12:20.38 | Chipzz | then again, GLUT doesn't buy you a lot |
| 12:20.51 | Chipzz | I looked into using native OSX API and that wasn't too hard |
| 12:20.52 | [TOM_RUS] | valve tried to go with linux and I think it didn't endup well? |
| 12:20.57 | nevcairiel | you dont have to deal with window creation and management |
| 12:21.06 | nevcairiel | also keyboard input etc |
| 12:21.25 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: window creation is really not a big deal |
| 12:21.26 | nevcairiel | steam works on linux, and a bunch of games as well, but they entirely depend on game makers offering the games on linux |
| 12:23.32 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: I find it really funny that you claim "14:19 < nevcairiel> Then you haven't actually done that". really funny. because I *HAVE* actually done that, have a concept minimal app that I need to integrate |
| 12:23.44 | Chipzz | minimal app displays a triangle in opengl window |
| 12:23.55 | Chipzz | no xcode involved, window created programmtically |
| 12:24.03 | Stanzilla | in XML? |
| 12:24.09 | Chipzz | it's 62 LOC including whitespace |
| 12:24.10 | nevcairiel | you should really not ignore the second line, because GLUT hides all of that from you |
| 12:24.19 | Chipzz | Stanzilla: does XML compile to an object file? |
| 12:24.39 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: and you should, again, read more carefully. this is NATIVE OSX API, not GLUT |
| 12:24.42 | Stanzilla | maybe? |
| 12:24.53 | Chipzz | 62 lines, including main, including the code to draw the triangle |
| 12:25.04 | Chipzz | the code to display a window is probably <50 LOC |
| 12:25.20 | Chipzz | you need input handling but that's not the big deal either |
| 12:25.33 | Chipzz | no offense, but native implementation would be 200LOC guesstimate |
| 12:25.47 | nevcairiel | have you also done an actual complex app thats more then a small concept app, with native support for all 3 platforms, no toolkit? |
| 12:25.55 | nevcairiel | because I have, and it explodes in complexity quickly |
| 12:26.58 | nevcairiel | (especially with Mac shit when you end up having to use Objective-C because their C APIs are deprecated and don't do the new shit anymore) |
| 12:27.10 | Chipzz | much of that complexity is shared anyway. for example input, you just need to handle mouse movement. camera rotation by quaternions can be shared across all platforms |
| 12:27.56 | Chipzz | so U am calling MAJOR bullshit on your claim, especially since I actually have code and you don't |
| 12:28.02 | Chipzz | *so I |
| 12:28.22 | [TOM_RUS] | i'm still wondering why they added dx12 instead of vulkan, that would have allowed them to run it on windows, osx amd linux |
| 12:28.32 | nevcairiel | You haven't seen my code, nor have I seen yours, yet you just flat out claim I don't have any? :) |
| 12:28.35 | [TOM_RUS] | and* |
| 12:28.47 | Chipzz | http://chipzz.safehex.be/CocoaGL.m is minimal triangle exampe I was talking about |
| 12:29.37 | nevcairiel | ew using fixed function pipeline |
| 12:29.57 | Chipzz | it's a proof of concept... :P |
| 12:30.05 | Chipzz | you know what a proof of concept is, right? |
| 12:31.40 | nevcairiel | I do, but I also know that one shouldn't assume from the simplicity of some PoC code that a final product will still be extremely simple, thats just something experience teaches you |
| 12:32.16 | Chipzz | atm my emulator has multiple layers for input |
| 12:32.28 | Chipzz | if you have enough layers that integration is rather trivial |
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| 12:35.38 | Chipzz | that is ALSO sth experience teaches you: making the right amount of abstraction layers |
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| 12:39.56 | nevcairiel | Of course, but that still means you need to implement the bottom most layer for every platform, and there is a bunch of factors a game like this needs .. window management, file IO, network, keyboard/mouse input, sound, a web browser integration, and probably more i didnt think about now, and eventhough some of those are probably very similar (like file IO and network), its still a lot of shit to consider, so the only question that |
| 12:39.56 | nevcairiel | matters is, how many more people would be playing WoW if there was a Linux client? It runs mostly fine in Wine, doesn't it? Would there be a significant gain to offset any costs? |
| 12:41.59 | nevcairiel | They may have asked themselves this back in the day and the answer may have been "no" |
| 12:43.39 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: wow has exactly 1 window, it doesn't need window management |
| 12:48.22 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: I have a friend who used to play WoW on Linux, and he was complaining all the time that this and that broke WoW again |
| 12:48.28 | Chipzz | he was constantly fixing stuff |
| 12:49.02 | nevcairiel | No doubt that some people may have liked it |
| 12:49.30 | AcidWeb | Playing WoW on Linux is masochism. |
| 12:53.50 | nevcairiel | I tried on and off over the years just to see how it runs, and it was mostly OK, but from just randomly trying I may never hit the time right after a patch when it was broke for a while until Wine updated |
| 12:54.25 | nevcairiel | Interestingly some people claimed it ran better for them (performance wise) then on Windows, i could never see that |
| 12:55.57 | Chipzz | that's nothing wow specific though |
| 12:56.15 | Chipzz | that's the case with a lot of software running under wine too |
| 12:56.27 | AcidWeb | Well it might be consider as yet another RNG layer - Lets see if client start at all today ð |
| 12:57.00 | Chipzz | there's no RNG in my rotation, all the RNG is getting to the rotation! :) |
| 14:41.26 | nimhfree | Just for info: WoW Mac client on macOS 10.13.4 only has option for Metal, no OpenGL. Chipzz: you should be coding in Swift by now, especially for a POC. :-) |
| 14:44.37 | nimhfree | cannot check the 8.0.1.26766 build as the servers are reporing incompatible at the moment |
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| 14:55.37 | VIad | "(13:59:12) nevcairiel: and I know for a fact that VIad doesnt run a mac =p" this is correct. mac would be too expensive to invest in and I dont really need one for the work I do. |
| 15:00.29 | Funkeh` | but it's such great value for money |
| 15:03.44 | Alram | Re: recent discussion, OpenGL is very much dead in 8.0 I think, most if not all go shaders are gone |
| 15:04.23 | Chipzz | nimhfree: that's weird because my iMac doesn't support metal and actually factually runs WoW in opengl |
| 15:04.30 | Chipzz | what you're saying is factually wrong |
| 15:04.57 | Chipzz | nimhfree: opengl support is dropped in BfA, but Legion still supports it just fine |
| 15:05.12 | nevcairiel | Alram: its not like it actually works on the live client on windows, the rendering is entirely broken |
| 15:05.40 | nimhfree | perhaps I should have qualified that I am running on a Mid-2014 13â Retina MacBook Pro |
| 15:05.59 | Alram | I mean, many many people are having issues with OpenGL WoW in 7.x |
| 15:06.04 | Chipzz | my macbook indeed runs metal and doesn't show the option for opengl |
| 15:06.11 | Alram | They basically gave up around 6.0 somewhere |
| 15:06.12 | Chipzz | but my imac runs opengl *just* *fine* |
| 15:06.26 | nevcairiel | i tried to launch it earlier Alram and it looked entirely broken and unusable, but i didnt crash :D |
| 15:06.30 | Chipzz | FSVO "just fine", ie missing ground effects :P |
| 15:06.35 | nimhfree | openGL on a mac runs ok, but it is an older version of openGP |
| 15:06.42 | nimhfree | ^openGP^openGL |
| 15:06.53 | Alram | It's too bad really, the OpenGL shaders they included were always very... descriptive |
| 15:07.06 | nevcairiel | they may hide the opengl option on systems where its just not necessary |
| 15:07.23 | nevcairiel | but if you cant run metal on those old boxes today, you're probably in trouble come 8.0 |
| 15:07.23 | Chipzz | nimhfree: the rest of my code is in C++, it's bad enough that I have to mix C++ and ObjC in one file ;) |
| 15:07.24 | Alram | I'm sure they want as less people as possible using it haha |
| 15:07.45 | nimhfree | chipzz: I thank the gods I never had to touch C++ |
| 15:07.54 | nevcairiel | its still better then ObjC |
| 15:07.59 | Chipzz | to each his own :) |
| 15:08.32 | nimhfree | nevcairiel: no, Objective-C has always been better than C++, especially at the start when C++ was just a bunch of preprocessor macros |
| 15:08.50 | Chipzz | nimhfree: nah, ObjC syntax is just... messed up... |
| 15:08.54 | Chipzz | also it doesn't support templates |
| 15:09.16 | nevcairiel | if you like the smalltalk syntax mess, maybe |
| 15:09.28 | nimhfree | chipzz: you must not be from the smalltalk world. youâre right, ObjC has no templates, if you even need them |
| 15:09.54 | nevcairiel | i was lucky to be old enough to never have been brutalized in university by being forced to learn smalltalk |
| 15:10.01 | nevcairiel | we were evolved and learned java |
| 15:10.05 | Chipzz | my XML parser is written largely dependent on templates (it used to be regular C, but that was one big copy/pasta mess) |
| 15:10.13 | nimhfree | one of the cool things about ObjC is you can actually read the method calls as if they were english sentences |
| 15:10.18 | Chipzz | lol, calling java evolved, ROFL :) |
| 15:10.26 | nevcairiel | in contrast to smalltalk, sure |
| 15:10.38 | VIad | I have a friend that codes in C++ latest version of course and he says it's the only language he respects. His background is math and physics. |
| 15:10.45 | nimhfree | I pity those that needed to learn Java in school |
| 15:10.52 | Chipzz | java is right at the very bottom of the pile of shitty languages - you can not possible get any worse than Java |
| 15:11.03 | nimhfree | you should always start out with something like Pascal/Modula 2/Ada |
| 15:11.10 | VIad | isn't blizz website running on java? |
| 15:11.17 | nevcairiel | i never said we started with java |
| 15:11.22 | nevcairiel | we just did java for OO |
| 15:11.30 | nevcairiel | you know, we learned more then one language! |
| 15:11.31 | nimhfree | java as OO is a bad choice |
| 15:11.40 | Chipzz | nimhfree: I would recommend python to start |
| 15:11.43 | nevcairiel | its just fine to demonstrate all the concepts |
| 15:11.46 | VIad | my uni had java as the OO intro language too |
| 15:11.56 | VIad | made us code linked lists, the basics |
| 15:12.00 | nevcairiel | and in constrast to smalltalk or whatever, its actually a skill you can use in the future :) |
| 15:12.25 | nevcairiel | if you code linked lists yourself, you're not learning OO, but basic data structures |
| 15:12.28 | nevcairiel | we did linked lists in C :P |
| 15:12.33 | nimhfree | languages are not really what you need. you need data structures and algorithms. languages are things to learn to implement. |
| 15:12.52 | nevcairiel | thats fine, but learnign one you can actually use later is a bonus |
| 15:12.58 | Chipzz | nimhfree: sure, but you want the syntax to get in the was as little as possible |
| 15:13.05 | nimhfree | java is too limiting as an OO language. it cannot handle true class inheritance and methods |
| 15:13.06 | Chipzz | and in that regard python is a great choice IMO |
| 15:13.18 | VIad | hey, I use golflua in my everyday life |
| 15:13.19 | Chipzz | *in the way |
| 15:13.32 | Chipzz | how masochistic ;) |
| 15:14.25 | Chipzz | lua is a language that I would never voluntarily pick as a choice to write my own stuff in |
| 15:14.43 | nimhfree | I do not like how python is indented to set off its blocks. I think I prefer the syntactic sugar of braces or block start/stop keywords like then/end, etc. |
| 15:14.56 | VIad | it's very clean and I like lua |
| 15:15.03 | nevcairiel | i think its neat to force you to learn proper indentation rules |
| 15:15.16 | nevcairiel | indent your blocks, yo |
| 15:15.16 | Chipzz | nimhfree: that's personal taste. but for people who have no prior programming knowledge, not having to deal with braces is a + |
| 15:15.39 | Chipzz | nevcairiel++ :) |
| 15:15.46 | VIad | lua has a simplistic syntax |
| 15:15.47 | nimhfree | hell, when I wrote fortran the first thing was to put a comment in place that showed the column offsets so the rest of the code could line up properlyâ¦much evil that |
| 15:16.11 | Chipzz | VIad: lua has a messed up syntax in some regards. ~= as "not equal", really? |
| 15:16.26 | nimhfree | i like luaâs default behavior of using nil for parameters not passed |
| 15:16.27 | Chipzz | 1-based arrays as only language in existence? really? |
| 15:16.57 | VIad | I wouldn't say ~= ruins the whole thing, just how that language handles not equal |
| 15:17.04 | Chipzz | nimhfree: python indenting is in no way similar to fortran indenting |
| 15:17.25 | nevcairiel | Basic and pascal used <> for not equal, so psh :p |
| 15:17.27 | nimhfree | not at all similarâ¦just reminds me that languages shoud not impose indenting rules on code |
| 15:17.34 | Chipzz | VIad: it's a pointless need to change your mindset. lots of languages have !=, in lua you have to switch |
| 15:17.52 | Chipzz | nevcairiel: yeah but perl uses ~= for regex matching :S |
| 15:18.16 | Chipzz | VIad: it seems to me like lua is being different for the sake of being idfferent |
| 15:18.28 | VIad | lua is a good start for newbies to learn basics |
| 15:18.32 | Chipzz | not really |
| 15:18.38 | Chipzz | I would say it's a damn bad start |
| 15:18.44 | nimhfree | see why language silliness is not really important. using != or ~= or <> really is not important. same with âletâ is javascript versus swift (which is really annoying by the way) |
| 15:18.51 | Chipzz | you're learning things that aren't transferrable |
| 15:19.20 | VIad | same with learning java these days tbh |
| 15:19.21 | nimhfree | language syntax should not be transferrable. if that were the case, then we would all be using one language as all of them would be the same |
| 15:19.22 | nevcairiel | once you learn that however, you'll realize to think in multiple dimeonsions and just adjust! |
| 15:19.26 | Chipzz | 1-based arrays are not transferrable and not sth you should learn, ever, IMO |
| 15:19.58 | Chipzz | nimhfree: I'm not talking just about language syntax being transferrable, but the experience you gain |
| 15:20.07 | VIad | the reason any language exists and is used means it has some appeal |
| 15:20.10 | Chipzz | things like muscle memory |
| 15:20.12 | nimhfree | 1-based arrays are for normal humans. 0-based arrays are for C-based programmers. |
| 15:20.26 | VIad | surprised you havent brought up how people that use php should be burnt at the stake |
| 15:20.30 | Chipzz | nimhfree: no, for "every language not lua"-programmers |
| 15:20.41 | Chipzz | lua is the one and only and single man out |
| 15:20.45 | nimhfree | vlad: I thought that was an assumption we did not need to voice :-) |
| 15:20.50 | nevcairiel | Lua evolved not really as a programming language, but its spiritual predecessors are data description languages |
| 15:20.56 | nevcairiel | where 1-based index makes more sense |
| 15:21.25 | VIad | javascript is pretty bad but used everywhere, go figure |
| 15:21.42 | VIad | I dare you to write two classes and having one inherit the other - clean practices! |
| 15:21.47 | Chipzz | <3 node.js |
| 15:22.01 | VIad | node uses es6 and typescript |
| 15:22.03 | nimhfree | chipzz: if I were to talk to a non-programmer, 1-based arrays makes more sense to them because they say âthe first elementâ, âthe second elementâ, etc. not the âzeroth element" |
| 15:22.15 | VIad | I mean like look up any website using javascript, horrors |
| 15:22.34 | nevcairiel | javascript is not an object-oriented language, its an object-based language |
| 15:22.36 | nimhfree | I am waiting for the day when Swift replaces Javacript on the web |
| 15:22.43 | nevcairiel | which means any sense of class functionality, you gotta make yourself |
| 15:22.57 | nevcairiel | somewhat like Lua |
| 15:23.01 | nevcairiel | if you consider tables objects |
| 15:23.05 | Chipzz | do you realize node has an inherit function that eases all of that for you? |
| 15:23.20 | nevcairiel | of course, but thats not a language feature, just someone wrote that :) |
| 15:23.38 | VIad | the only reason nodejs is popular and usable is because of the es6 support tbh |
| 15:23.43 | Chipzz | javascript has it warts, but some of these are solved problems TBH |
| 15:24.31 | VIad | issue is when the language inherently needs you to know a bunch of caveats to use, like php, it's not good :P |
| 15:24.42 | VIad | keeping a list of exceptions you need to pay attention to when coding it |
| 15:27.13 | Chipzz | the good thing about lua: it's heaven to use from the C (embedding) side. the bad thing about lua: it;s hell to use from the lua side :P |
| 15:28.16 | nimhfree | Has anyone looked at the Swift Programming Language book that Apple gives away? Early on in the book they talk about dictionaries and give an example of occupations: [ âMalcolmâ : âCaptainâ, âKayleeâ : âMechanicâ] and then augment it later with occupations[âJayneâ] = âPublic Relationsâ |
| 15:28.33 | nimhfree | anyone who writes a tutorial book with those references has to be cool |
| 15:29.09 | VIad | guessing it's a firefly reference |
| 15:29.35 | VIad | I didn't like the series, tried watching a couple of episodes, was boring to me, but I know there is a cult following so assumed it might be refering to that. |
| 15:29.46 | nevcairiel | Has Apple not replaced Swift yet? they keep popping out new shit for developers to buy into on a bi-yearly cadence it feels like :p |
| 15:30.10 | Shockah | don't worry, every single Swift release is incompatible with the previous one |
| 15:30.21 | nevcairiel | Oh at least that |
| 15:31.50 | nimhfree | vlad: yes, firefly. I am one of those cultists :-) |
| 15:32.25 | nevcairiel | I don't get the act of obsessing about anything really. The show was good, now its over. Find something else to watch *shrug* |
| 15:32.44 | nimhfree | Swiftâs issues with previous versions is slowing. the benefits from the changes seem to outweigh the issues with migrating code |
| 15:34.37 | nimhfree | i think the obsession is really to do with the people you were experiencing the show with when it first came out. those memories are brought back. its like the series Friends. looking back on it had good times but nothing to obsess about. except that Friends reminds one of the actual friends that were hanging out with you at the time |
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| 15:37.47 | nimhfree | when I process my saved variables files from Blizzard, I put them into NSMutableDictionary objects, and besides the boiler plate code I only had to write: - (void) iterateLuaState: (lua_State *) L index: (int) index, so yes, chipzz: it can be used well from a C-like side :-) |
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| 17:49.43 | Chipzz | nimhfree: what I meant was exposing C methods in lua |
| 17:50.02 | Chipzz | that is, once you write a couple of macros, extremely easy :) |
| 17:51.58 | Chipzz | >90% of my lua <-> C++ bindings happens with a simple one-line macro |
| 17:53.15 | Chipzz | UI_LUA_CLASS_SETTER(Frame, SetClipsChildren, bool) |
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| 20:34.28 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Cairenn -> BoA Author Keys! http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56267http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56267 || 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 20:35.10 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Cairenn -> BoA Author Keys! http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56267 || 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 20:35.24 | Cairenn | Author Keys! Sign up now if you still need one! |
| 20:35.45 | nevcairiel | not to nag, but the expansion is called BfA :) |
| 20:35.46 | nebula | oh hey, and here i thought they weren't gonna give out keys this time around |
| 20:36.09 | nebula | they are bind on account, i imagine |
| 20:36.47 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Cairenn -> BfA Author Keys! http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56267 || 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 20:39.16 | AcidWeb | "Sorry, only one key per person. We have detected an entry under a different username with the same email address." |
| 20:39.18 | AcidWeb | huh |
| 20:39.46 | AcidWeb | My bad twin brother strikes again. |
| 20:39.59 | Thunder_Child | Who says he is the bad one? |
| 20:40.22 | AcidWeb | History. |
| 20:42.37 | Alram | i bet it is Fisker |
| 20:43.34 | nevcairiel | i should really start updating more addons |
| 20:43.39 | nevcairiel | but i've been just so lazy |
| 20:47.40 | nevcairiel | doesnt help that it been like the hottest month of may since they started recording the temperatures like 130 years ago =P |
| 20:48.08 | Stanzilla | my AC purchase this month was the best thing I ever did |
| 20:48.24 | nevcairiel | i did that two years ago, such a life saver |
| 20:48.37 | znf | how's the humidity there? |
| 20:48.39 | Stanzilla | which one did you buy? |
| 20:48.47 | nevcairiel | was acceptable temp the last two days, but starting tomorrow it'll go back to like 33C+ |
| 20:48.55 | znf | I usually keep mine on dehumidification (did I spell that right?) instead of cooling |
| 20:49.01 | Andols | I bought one today, and the temperature has only been 18 degrees -.- |
| 20:49.30 | nevcairiel | humidity is usually pretty ok, and in cooling mode it dehumidifies anyway |
| 20:49.42 | znf | I find that it seems to use less power (not that it's an issue), and it feels overall better to stay indoors |
| 20:50.01 | znf | my eyes feel funny if I leave it 24/7 on cooling |
| 20:50.01 | nebula | saves your neighbor some energy costs |
| 20:50.13 | nevcairiel | Stanzilla: trotec pac 2000 e, i think was it |
| 20:50.45 | Stanzilla | ah |
| 20:50.58 | Stanzilla | there seem to be only 3 real brands on that market, trotec, suntec and de longhi |
| 20:56.05 | nevcairiel | if i would own this apartment i would get a proper split unit |
| 20:56.27 | nevcairiel | monoblock units like these are pretty inefficient, but also the only option =p |
| 20:56.32 | Thunder_Child | I have central air, but alas it blows chunks. |
| 20:57.11 | Thunder_Child | Not literally. |
| 21:15.52 | Cairenn | AcidWeb: try now |
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| 21:33.07 | nimhfree | those temperatures are not too bad. there was that heatwave like a decade ago where Vienna got to 40 degrees. We had to abandon the city and run to the Alps to get cooler, still with no air conditioning, but mountain air helps |
| 21:35.06 | Gnarfoz | A/C is just rather uncommon in those/our latitudes :D |
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| 22:49.52 | Mr_Rabies | is there anything out there that adds the order hall/garrison to an LDB frame thing? i modified Broker_Orderhall to fix some lua bugs months ago but I'd rather switch to something that might work with whatever BfA's equivalent is |
| 22:50.55 | nevcairiel | dont think bfa really has that UI element anymore |
| 22:51.06 | nevcairiel | also i always found it to be entirely pointless myself |
| 22:51.22 | Mr_Rabies | i mostly use it to track mission timers, etc, not the actual giant button |
| 22:52.58 | nevcairiel | isnt that particular button usually at the minimap |
| 22:53.06 | Mr_Rabies | yep |
| 22:53.24 | Mr_Rabies | that's what i'm talking about, replacing that button with a broker icon/display |
| 22:53.41 | nevcairiel | i thought you meant the silly bar at the top of the screen |
| 22:53.51 | Mr_Rabies | oh yeah i just hide that |
| 22:53.58 | Mr_Rabies | i don't need a hat on a hat |
| 22:54.03 | nevcairiel | no idea who ever thought that was a good idea |
| 22:54.06 | Mr_Rabies | almost literally in the case of that |
| 22:54.09 | nevcairiel | it had like 2 pieces of info on it |
| 22:54.24 | nevcairiel | pointless info at that |
| 22:55.46 | Mr_Rabies | i actually 100% forgot that ui element even existed because i hid it on the first day i got my order hall on my first character, like 5 minutes after it appeared |
| 22:55.59 | Mr_Rabies | "wtf addon did this? oh, sweet a toggle to turn it off" |
| 22:58.50 | Mr_Rabies | oh they updated zz_GarrisonToggle so i'm good |
| 22:59.01 | Mr_Rabies | shift click to look at garrison, click to look at order hall there we go |
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