| 00:12.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Tentacled (~Sinus@bck126.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 00:18.33 | Tentacled | I wish we could load individual addon files on demand. |
| 00:20.24 | Tentacled | Then we could make every bit of an addon on-demand, like configuration or something, which are a nightmare when split into a separate addon... |
| 00:21.45 | nebula | if you can move it to into it's own file, moving it to another addon should be trivial |
| 00:22.58 | Tentacled | I was thinking forward, and from a user's perspective, as obviously from code side it's not an issue. Imagine every addon having two or three sub-addons. Oh wait, that's how it looks even now. <_< |
| 00:26.00 | nebula | not sure how that's a nightmare |
| 00:27.36 | Tentacled | How does DBM look now, having - what, 10? 15? - sub-addons..? Oh wait, 18. |
| 00:28.50 | Simca | on demand loading made more sense in ~2007 when it was introduced |
| 00:28.59 | Simca | when people actually had shit PCs with 2GB of RAM |
| 00:29.16 | Simca | nowadays my phone has enough RAM to play WoW |
| 00:30.21 | Tentacled | That's another approach. :> |
| 00:31.35 | foxlit | Tentacled: I wish we could load individual addon files on demand. << that'd be nice, really. |
| 00:34.00 | Tentacled | And not hard to do, code-wise. Just re-enable dofile(), even if limited to what's in the folders already (for whatever reason that's a requirement now...) |
| 00:35.13 | Tentacled | Come to think of it, why ARE addons limited to loading files present at launch time? Why AREN'T folders rescanned for new files at every reload? Surely it can't be taking too much time... |
| 00:37.02 | Stanzilla | 42 |
| 00:37.22 | Tentacled | ... and a half. |
| 00:37.42 | foxlit | meh, if you run into those limitations you're doing something silly and should stop shooting yourself in the foot. |
| 00:38.32 | Simca | says the person asking for load on demand files |
| 00:39.00 | foxlit | well, Simca, it'd be nice to not have to say "Do you have both MasterPlan and MasterPlanA installed and enabled?" |
| 00:39.54 | Tentacled | Or, when running a client that updates addons, be able to update them while ingame, and just reload to run an updated version, without having to worry if the new update didn't add a new file which won't load until the game is restarted. |
| 00:40.26 | Tentacled | Or, now that's a novel thought, install a new addon and just /reload to start it! Whoa! Wouldn't that be something! |
| 00:40.37 | Simca | why even split them up like that again? lots of embedded data that isn't normally needed? |
| 00:41.20 | foxlit | Don't want to force-load the garrison ui infrastructure, don't want to wrap everything in a giant function WaitForStuffToLoad() end, and have to handle some interactions even if garrison ui isn't loaded. |
| 00:41.27 | Tentacled | I know we're pushing the limits of science and going into fiction here, but imagine the possibilities... :> |
| 00:42.14 | foxlit | there are no possibilities. It's (maybe update things) -> launch wow -> play game -> finish playing game -> close game -> do whatever. |
| 00:42.42 | Tentacled | I was being sarcastic. |
| 00:42.52 | foxlit | Not reload-because-your-GameTooltip-is-broken > get DBM update > Hurray, nothing works anymore. |
| 00:43.32 | TheDanW | i'd like to have addon packages that could hold a bundle of LoD modules in a single directory and automatically handle loading the best shared embeds across all addons |
| 00:43.53 | Tentacled | Aaand now I don't know whether you're in favor of more relaxed loading of things, foxlit, or against it. :> |
| 00:45.58 | Tentacled | TheDanW, since you're here - what IS the rationale behind the pretty odd limitation of files only being scanned once, so that a /reload never picks up a new file, let alone a new addon? Is it some odd security issue, some legacy file-database-hash-thing that just won't budge, or what..? |
| 00:46.38 | Funkeh` | doesn't reload pick up a new file if you load it via xml |
| 00:46.41 | foxlit | (bundled library loading would be neat, but I'm not sure how much I trust our versioning conventions) |
| 00:46.46 | Tentacled | Funkeh`, nope. |
| 00:47.17 | TheDanW | the files must exist at client load, but you can change if they load or not during reload UI |
| 00:47.32 | TheDanW | not entirely sure why, i think it was just written that way and no one has bothered changing it |
| 00:47.45 | Tentacled | Legacy, then. Meeehh. :P |
| 00:47.52 | TheDanW | in the grand scheme of things its pretty minor |
| 00:48.30 | Funkeh` | yeah, having LoD content within 1 directory would be a major win for LittleWigs |
| 00:48.44 | TheDanW | one of our engineers is pretty annoyed with needing to restart, maybe he'll eventually get fed up and change it |
| 00:49.43 | Tentacled | You know what would REALLY rule? Being able to force a FILE reload. So that an external client could feed data into a Lua file, and an addon could pick it up every n seconds or something. |
| 00:50.01 | foxlit | why don't you ask for raw socket access while you're at it. |
| 00:50.34 | foxlit | (for whatever reason, the game seems really keen on isolating the addon system from the world outside the game.) |
| 00:50.38 | Tentacled | Right, go ahead, ridicule me. Being able to reload a file is no greater a risk than being able to load a file at all. |
| 00:51.02 | Tentacled | That keenness is totally bogus, though - you can write to an addon file, ask the user to /reload, done. |
| 00:51.42 | Funkeh` | please reload so I can has all your keys |
| 00:51.51 | Tentacled | That's in already. |
| 00:52.34 | Tentacled | That's security forcing the door shut while all the windows are open. :> |
| 00:53.04 | Simca | reloading files every X seconds is the type of thing they'd never go for |
| 00:53.15 | Simca | so i think foxlit's suggestion is about on par |
| 00:53.39 | Tentacled | What security risk would it pose, than writing to a file with, say, Curse client, and having the user /reload does not? |
| 00:54.27 | Simca | the current situation is user-prompted, yours is addon-controlled |
| 00:55.05 | Tentacled | The only thing that comes to mind is that until they /reload, they're running the very same code they launched the game with. But suppose an addon runs a long loop, forcing the game to disconnect..? There you go, forced reload, because the player will /reload out of frustration. |
| 00:55.31 | Simca | that's the key issue. you're letting third party programs effectively inject data into the game without user intervention. |
| 00:56.00 | Simca | even through the limitations of the lua environment blizzard would never go for that |
| 00:56.15 | Simca | and if an addon force disconnected you, they'd blacklist it |
| 00:56.44 | foxlit | (you can't get your users to type /reload for you every 5 seconds for very long) |
| 00:56.47 | Tentacled | Bah, if not force disconnect, then show a full black frame and simulate something going belly up. |
| 00:58.25 | Tentacled | If you're doing something malicious, then all it takes is one /reload, really. Injecting data on a steady basis has way more benefits than dangers. |
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| 01:10.27 | foxlit | It is just really difficult to imagine a positive use case that calls for continious loading of external data. |
| 01:15.24 | foxlit | (also "run this addon + this executable to feed it data" seems like a vector to get people to run arbitrary executables. Imagine the "Investigation finds World of Warcraft stole Grandma's bank account details" headlines.) |
| 01:20.23 | Mr_Rabies | that in-and-of-itself is probably a good way to get thousands of people to resub |
| 01:20.29 | Mr_Rabies | just reminding them the game exists with headlines |
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| 01:50.23 | nimhfree | what I want is to be able to use if statements in the TOC to be able to control loading of lua files, like localization files. I hate having to put things like âif GetLocale() ~= "itIT" then return end |
| 01:50.24 | nimhfree | â at the top of localization files. |
| 01:52.02 | foxlit | put all localization data in a single file, too lazy to type out the 8 language codes in the .toc :) |
| 01:57.36 | foxlit | (perhaps this also applies to compatibility code for other addons -- if the user isn't running X, no reason to load code that interacts with X.) |
| 01:59.23 | nimhfree | cannot fit it all into one file. the file becomes too big for the lua environment to load. |
| 02:01.44 | foxlit | wait, are you the one shipping localized names of every item in the game? :P |
| 02:02.53 | Tentacled | foxlit: auctioning addons providing pre-crunched auction scans in real time, for one. |
| 02:04.59 | Tentacled | Well, real time being a pretty stretched term here, but "fairly up to date", within a few minutes, is better than "please reload" all the time, even if an executable client is filling a dead-drop Lua file with fresh data every few minutes. |
| 02:06.32 | foxlit | auction automation is pretty high up on my list of things that can go right ahead and stand in the fire. |
| 02:07.24 | Tentacled | So you're using the built-in UI still? :P |
| 02:08.03 | Tentacled | Anyone that's even remotely serious about auctioning is using addons, and wasting time sitting in the AH hitting the scan button. |
| 02:08.39 | foxlit | I'm not even remotely serious about auctioning. |
| 02:09.12 | Tentacled | You are not. I am not. But many are. Look at me being all altruistic and empathetic and shit... :> |
| 02:10.00 | foxlit | I wonder who would be footing all the bandwidth bills. |
| 02:13.26 | Mr_Rabies | i just want a seperate auction system for goods and gear |
| 02:14.05 | nimhfree | foxlit: no, just the localized quest names :-) |
| 02:14.10 | Mr_Rabies | knowing the average list price of a boe green from vanilla doesn't matter very much since it's in such low demand |
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| 03:47.10 | Simca | you know what i would love |
| 03:47.22 | Simca | is a way to vendor items for the sell price within the 'return to vendor' window |
| 03:48.11 | Simca | i buy transmog pieces from a vendor to learn the appearance, but i don't want the piece longterm in my bags or bank, so i try to sell it back, but the vendor is like SORRY I CAN ONLY PAY YOU FULL PRICE SINCE IT'S IN THE 2HR REFUND PERIOD and then they take the transmog away. |
| 03:48.33 | Simca | so you're forced to either destroy the items or wait 2 hours (of logged in game time, mind you) |
| 03:50.08 | nebula | that is pretty annoying |
| 03:50.27 | nebula | atleast with boe's you can equipped them them vendor |
| 03:50.39 | nebula | equip them then* bleh |
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| 04:20.43 | Mr_Rabies | is there anything out there that gives a different tooltip border to unbound boes? |
| 04:21.50 | Mr_Rabies | also, Simca, here's a really stupid workaround: |
| 04:22.01 | Mr_Rabies | set the item as a favorite in your appearances window |
| 04:22.21 | Mr_Rabies | it will clear the refund timer and let you vendor it normally |
| 04:24.22 | Simca | hmm |
| 04:24.27 | Simca | there should be an addon that does it then |
| 04:24.38 | Simca | Semlar save me |
| 04:25.47 | Semlar | i help those who help themselves |
| 04:31.50 | Mr_Rabies | i actually considered pestering the fine denizens of this channel to do that exact thing at one point |
| 04:32.35 | Mr_Rabies | just a "press butan, make everything tagged new in my collection a favorite then unset that status |
| 04:32.43 | Mr_Rabies | " |
| 04:33.06 | Mr_Rabies | you can see why i don't write addons other than not knowing lua in the least beyond hacking existing addons that break sometimes |
| 04:33.20 | Mr_Rabies | i cannot close a bracket or parenthesis or quotation mark or anything ever |
| 04:33.25 | Mr_Rabies | i can't even close a door sometimes |
| 04:34.17 | Semlar | sounds like you should put a button on the confirmation dialog that favorites and vendors the item for you |
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| 08:39.25 | nevcairiel | Simca: another way is to mog it once, that also clears it |
| 08:39.53 | nevcairiel | or you know, just throw the item a way |
| 08:40.01 | nevcairiel | away* |
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| 13:28.29 | foxlit | so at some semi-recent point they changed blood of sargeras missions to be exactly break-even in terms of resource cost |
| 13:30.19 | foxlit | but Broll reduces mission costs by 30%, so the blood mines are apparently still open. |
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| 13:53.33 | nevcairiel | much less efficient nevertheless |
| 14:07.14 | foxlit | Only if you were using Broll before as well. |
| 14:08.52 | nevcairiel | he probably isnt the only follower between all classes to make things cheaper |
| 14:10.16 | foxlit | OH parity doesn't really seem like a design priority, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a class or two without that ability. |
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| 14:58.37 | Constie | Mine doesn't have it, but I only do gold missions now so I'm only running out of resources very slowly anyway. |
| 15:26.16 | Mr_Rabies | the fact that there was -no- passive way to get OR was dumb, it felt like being able to finally achieve that was an intended reward for doing all the follower quests on argus |
| 15:28.05 | Mr_Rabies | having to farm world quests on all your alts just to get any OR is the worst thing, even if there was just a small cache like in WoD that slowly filled up, with the best result still coming from active play |
| 15:28.10 | Mr_Rabies | would be a massive improvement |
| 15:29.48 | foxlit | a massive improvement to what? |
| 15:30.17 | Mr_Rabies | versus only being able to get OR via grinding it out |
| 15:30.26 | Mr_Rabies | alternatively, rewarding it for dungeons, raids, etc would be nice |
| 15:31.16 | Mr_Rabies | as is the only meaningful source of OR is world quests, and if you have the right professions, blood of sargeras are a good source if you're never gonna craft anything |
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| 15:41.33 | foxlit | broadly, it seems fine: you should not have OH rewards for characters you aren't playing. |
| 15:42.22 | foxlit | (and if you have time to do dungeons/raids, you surely have time to do an ocassional WQ) |
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| 16:00.25 | Mr_Rabies | why not? |
| 16:01.58 | foxlit | that's how reward structures usually work; avoids a perverse incentive to get 50 characters to max-level and print gold while not playing the game, limits overall infaltion. |
| 16:03.01 | foxlit | "There should be a chest that slowly accumulates raid loot" is a similar proposition. |
| 16:03.12 | Mr_Rabies | grinding wq's barely counts as playing the game, it's just a time waste once you have all the other stuff you need from doing them |
| 16:04.09 | Mr_Rabies | thankfully my main has like 1000 blood from the window that was viable, but none of my alts have any OR, and havent for months |
| 16:06.38 | foxlit | I think the OR bags are BoA, so you could redistribute that if you wanted. |
| 16:09.25 | Mr_Rabies | yeah would probably work since i stopped doing any non-gold missions on my main due to the grind |
| 16:10.03 | Mr_Rabies | was afraid to give too many to my alts since i didn't want to deprive my main |
| 16:10.16 | Mr_Rabies | but there's nothing worth doing other than gold ones now on him |
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| 16:11.18 | Mr_Rabies | i think a small cache that maxed out at like 1500 OR across a few days after doing a questline would have been a good thing |
| 16:11.39 | Mr_Rabies | start it at say, 500 max when you first hit 110 with some quests to upgrade it to 1000 and 1500 |
| 16:12.02 | Mr_Rabies | not a ton, but something so you can at least slide alts along at a snail's pace instead of being locked to WQs you've done one million times |
| 16:16.12 | nevcairiel | passive OR generation is what made the garrison so terrible |
| 16:16.19 | nevcairiel | you should be rewarded for playing, not just existing |
| 16:17.15 | Mr_Rabies | i would agree if there was more than one meaningful source of it |
| 16:17.47 | nevcairiel | That might matter if there was an actual meaningful use of them |
| 16:17.48 | Mr_Rabies | instead you have to go back down to boring solo grindfest instead of getting it from the endgame content at all, and keep doing it for MONTHS |
| 16:18.24 | Mr_Rabies | well, there was, until everyone hit 75 points on their weapons |
| 16:18.54 | nevcairiel | besides if you have a properly equiped combat follower, you can easily make more OR then you can spend on even casual play |
| 16:19.36 | Mr_Rabies | if you can stomach a senseless grind for months on end, sure |
| 16:20.18 | nevcairiel | If you dont want repetitive play, maybe stop repetetively sending your dudes? :p |
| 16:20.29 | Mr_Rabies | i did, now |
| 16:20.48 | Mr_Rabies | but until then i had to grind the same 16 quests 100000000000 times |
| 16:21.05 | nevcairiel | you didn't have to, you forced yourself |
| 16:21.09 | nevcairiel | also there is a huge variety of quests |
| 16:21.11 | Mr_Rabies | also depends a bit on your order hall, some of them have a passive/follower that automatically gains order resources from missions, others rely on rare equipment drops |
| 16:21.29 | Mr_Rabies | i'd say i've done each order hall quest at least 20 times, some probably 100+ |
| 16:21.41 | Mr_Rabies | er |
| 16:21.42 | Mr_Rabies | world quest |
| 16:22.18 | nevcairiel | getting equipment really isnt hard, my bank is overflowing with that shit, i even have the +OR legendary like 3 times |
| 16:22.35 | Mr_Rabies | again depends a bit on your order hall, but yeah |
| 16:22.43 | nevcairiel | no it does not |
| 16:22.51 | nevcairiel | the legendaries come for free from the same source for everyone |
| 16:23.01 | foxlit | Why is the seething shore [flyable]? |
| 16:23.12 | nevcairiel | (no, i did not have rare legendary drop, all from the command center) |
| 16:23.27 | Mr_Rabies | druids can only get equipment from doing missions, not from work orders |
| 16:23.35 | Mr_Rabies | which cost generally more resources |
| 16:23.50 | nevcairiel | I am a druid, and my bank is still overflowing with gear |
| 16:24.03 | Mr_Rabies | we also have no ability to get OR from anything other than equipment, and the stupid legendary person keeps giving me the terrible +15 mission one :( |
| 16:24.20 | Mr_Rabies | +15% |
| 16:24.38 | Mr_Rabies | i had like 6 of those until i vendored them finally |
| 16:25.23 | nevcairiel | i should probably vendor the gear finally, they are not going to add new dudes anymore |
| 16:25.42 | Mr_Rabies | i vendor most of the non-argus stuff that isn't epic |
| 16:26.46 | Mr_Rabies | and honestly probably will just vendor it all soon |
| 16:27.33 | Mr_Rabies | since i don't see myself changing up their gear in a meaningful way |
| 16:27.57 | Mr_Rabies | +40 and +50 to whatever they counter, and then either +30% to all missions or +whatever with tier2 dudes |
| 16:32.09 | foxlit | tier2 is never worth it; it's +20 and the argus rare is +25 |
| 16:32.45 | Mr_Rabies | i only use tier 2 since the argus one is kinda in short supply for me |
| 16:33.04 | Mr_Rabies | ill replace them with whatever the top argus one is eventually, i thought it was +30% |
| 16:33.17 | foxlit | epic is +30, rare is +25. |
| 16:34.02 | Mr_Rabies | not really 100% sure what to give meatball but he's OP anyway |
| 16:34.13 | Mr_Rabies | love that low-poly bastard |
| 16:35.45 | nevcairiel | if you take him with you on WQs, then +300 OR :p |
| 16:37.48 | nevcairiel | 300 for every WQ is such a ridicoulously high amount that OR is really not a problem to care a bout for anyone that plays even a bit |
| 16:38.04 | Mr_Rabies | yeah but he's great for missions, boosting him to make almost any mission i put him on 200% is pretty great |
| 16:39.06 | Mr_Rabies | i just recently took all the +OR stuff from thisalee, then they nerfed the blood missions |
| 16:39.20 | Mr_Rabies | but i just hate doing WQs at this point so that's fine |
| 16:39.26 | Mr_Rabies | when i run out, i run out |
| 16:39.32 | nevcairiel | i put the OR items on remolus, m ostly because I really dont like permanent bodyguards and his button effect is pretty strong |
| 16:39.54 | Stanzilla | meatball > * |
| 16:40.11 | nevcairiel | that guy is not getting in my order hall, he deserves killed |
| 16:40.17 | nevcairiel | such an ugly mob |
| 16:40.57 | Mr_Rabies | he's getting some polygontal surgery soon |
| 16:41.23 | nevcairiel | that doesnt change that he is a f'ing gnoll to begin with =p |
| 16:41.47 | Mr_Rabies | kinda makes me miss the old art design, as much as i like the newer poly stuff it's clear there's a different vision behind the art design now |
| 16:42.36 | Mr_Rabies | then again, some of the BFA stuff seems to be using more muted colors and stuff so maybe we can have a small break from casino shoulders |
| 16:44.59 | Mr_Rabies | one of the dudes in my guild was farming 3 AP elite strikes each time they were up, he just stacked tons of mission time decreases on his followers |
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| 16:45.26 | nevcairiel | a lot of people do that, some people just try to hard to be better, and still fall short =p |
| 16:46.05 | nevcairiel | 2 levels or so more in your weapon never made you a better player |
| 16:46.09 | Mr_Rabies | yeah he icarus'd himself |
| 16:46.17 | nevcairiel | and i still collected a lot of the stuff when i still played, but not to those levels |
| 16:46.21 | Mr_Rabies | he blew up and ragequit sometime during tomb |
| 16:46.34 | nevcairiel | i quit because guild died, not because i farmed myself out |
| 16:47.13 | Mr_Rabies | hopefully 8.0 will bring more server merges |
| 16:47.19 | Mr_Rabies | when pvp servers cease to exist |
| 16:48.04 | Mr_Rabies | that way they no longer have to worry about faction balance, since every pvp server was horde dominated and every pve server was alliance dominated, with little exception |
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| 17:32.26 | Fisker | Hey Seerah |
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| 21:06.12 | Fisker | Hi Seerah |
| 21:06.16 | Seerah | hihi |
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| 22:21.49 | *** topic/#wowuidev is 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl |
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