| 00:17.31 | elvador | TheDanW: After some further tests: "Requesting" lots of spell data lags out the client, not sure if thats something you want to cover (it doesn't hang, you just get really low fps receiving all the SPELL_NAME_UPDATE's). Also, there is currently no way to tell if a spell doesn't have a description or if the description just wasn't loaded yet. |
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| 00:46.17 | TheDanW | elvador: there's a limit to the cache, if you exceed it then it evicts the least recently accessed record; if you're churning through that cache it'll be very slow as it'll keep hitting disk |
| 00:46.24 | TheDanW | how many are you requesting? |
| 00:46.34 | elvador | all of them |
| 00:46.50 | TheDanW | yeah, it's not built for that ;p |
| 00:47.11 | elvador | i figured :D |
| 00:49.01 | elvador | using it to show spell tooltips in atom (https://github.com/elvador/wow-spell-tooltips), so i have to grab all spells after every patch |
| 00:50.22 | elvador | is there any way for me to know when i'm hitting the limits so i can just slow down? |
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| 00:50.48 | TheDanW | currently, i'd try to stay under 1k outstanding requests |
| 00:51.33 | TheDanW | you might be able to push it a bit higher, but i'm not sure you'd gain much |
| 00:51.39 | TheDanW | no more than 1800 or so |
| 00:53.22 | elvador | okay, thanks |
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| 01:11.11 | Gnarfoz | still wondering what all this madness is aimed at |
| 01:11.57 | Gnarfoz | there must be some non-miniscule gain in this... |
| 01:12.09 | nevcairiel | sounds like some last ditch attempts to keep 7.3.5 from exploding on 32-bit before they drop it later =p |
| 01:12.29 | Funkeh` | the spellinfo changes? |
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| 01:19.24 | *** topic/#wowuidev is Happy Holidays! || 7.3.x ToC: 70300 || http://pastebin.com || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting || This channel is logged, via purl |
| 01:22.07 | TheDanW | it's difficult to compare PTR with live performance, as PTR gets closer to release we'll turn off a bunch of checks and then comparisons will be more accurate |
| 01:22.57 | Funkeh` | and if it's still worse what are the chances it will get pulled entirely before release? |
| 01:25.06 | TheDanW | it's reducing memory by deferred loading, it can't be faster than live, as that just has everything loaded always |
| 01:26.54 | Funkeh` | lol |
| 01:27.56 | Funkeh` | so nevcairiel is right, it is purely for saving memory, dear god |
| 01:28.33 | nevcairiel | please tell us that 8.0 drops 32-bit and you can finally go back to writing fast code, not small code :D |
| 01:29.03 | Funkeh` | nvidia is dropping 32 bit, who the hell thought this was a good idea :D |
| 01:30.13 | TheDanW | that's out of my control, and like i've mentioned before, memory isn't a strictly 32 bit problem |
| 01:31.45 | Funkeh` | http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey?platform=pc system RAM 8GB: 47% of users |
| 01:32.10 | Funkeh` | 12GB and higher, 34% of users |
| 01:35.12 | nevcairiel | Does WoW actually use Large Address Awareness (ie 3GB limit), or the pure 2GB limit? |
| 01:36.48 | nevcairiel | Since Legion the minimum system specs at least already call for 4GB, so that should be about 3GB for the game in ordinary circumstances |
| 01:37.32 | Funkeh` | especially since windows ram usage has actually steadily declined since 7 |
| 01:44.55 | Funkeh` | it seems to be like it might make more sense to segregate spells into different categories, such as classes, dungeons, etc, then you can load that data on demand |
| 01:47.00 | Funkeh` | anyone wanna create a table with all the spell names in it and see how much memory it takes? :D |
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| 01:59.09 | foxlit | More productive: describe the use cases you can't reasonably adapt to work around this. |
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| 02:01.07 | Funkeh` | we can work around it, and have a slower loading GUI, which performs worse than previously, all for the sake of saving some RAM |
| 02:02.03 | foxlit | what does your GUI do? |
| 02:02.50 | Funkeh` | display all the boss abilities & mod features |
| 02:04.18 | foxlit | Sounds like something one would open like once a patch |
| 02:05.05 | Funkeh` | i could explain it further, but there's nothing to be gained in doing so |
| 02:05.39 | Funkeh` | you're trying to justify their hack of trading CPU usage to save RAM, as addon authors we've done the opposite for 10 years |
| 02:06.21 | Funkeh` | wether it's miniscule things like storing table references or building caches |
| 02:06.25 | Semlar | oh no, someone broke the discord bot |
| 02:06.49 | Semlar | IT'S GONE |
| 02:06.55 | nebula | blame Stanzilla |
| 02:07.14 | Semlar | i do blame stanzilla |
| 02:08.44 | foxlit | Addon author resource allocation considerations do not match game dev resource allocation considerations, news at 11 |
| 02:09.34 | Funkeh` | you've convinced me this is needed, well done |
| 02:10.25 | Semlar | i'm looking at this steam hardware survey |
| 02:10.58 | Semlar | and i'm seeing simplified chinese as being 50% of the language column |
| 02:11.21 | foxlit | I just don't think the everything-is-terrible-and-only-a-rolllback-will-do spiel is proportionate or likely to actually do anything |
| 02:11.28 | nebula | there be a lot of chinese people |
| 02:11.34 | Funkeh` | blame PUBG |
| 02:11.36 | Semlar | PUBG has destroyed these stats |
| 02:11.46 | Funkeh` | destroyed them how? |
| 02:12.17 | Funkeh` | foxlit: when you're creating a solution for a non-existant problem... |
| 02:12.22 | Semlar | by overwhelming the data with entries from chinese players for a single game |
| 02:12.43 | Funkeh` | you mean by making it more accurate? |
| 02:13.00 | Semlar | chinese players are almost certainly going to be running more outdated components than the western world |
| 02:13.13 | foxlit | Funkeh`: clearly they think they have a memory usage problem on 32-bit clients. |
| 02:13.32 | Funkeh` | the inflation of old tech/software doesn't seem that major, but china is still a market for game devs to consider |
| 02:13.54 | Funkeh` | foxlit: because they think 32 bit clients is still a consideration :D |
| 02:14.04 | Semlar | these stats don't accurately reflect the average game's audience though |
| 02:14.05 | Thunder_Child | They have the numbers. |
| 02:14.15 | nebula | they consider it, hence the heavy investment in denuvo shit :p |
| 02:14.39 | Semlar | unless you count gold farming and bots in warcraft |
| 02:14.41 | Funkeh` | are you trying to call the chinese freeloaders nebula! |
| 02:15.30 | nebula | i'd lean toward "filthy pirates" over "freeloaders" |
| 02:16.00 | foxlit | I don't disagree, but I don't think the "drop 32-bit" plan is unlikely to be adopted because of addon author or even ui team feedback |
| 02:16.14 | nebula | although i'd hate to group them with znf |
| 02:16.16 | foxlit | too many negatives in that sentence |
| 02:16.38 | znf | hey now >_< |
| 02:16.51 | Funkeh` | I would have hoped the entire development team should be encouraging the drop of 32bit at whatever meetup took place to decide on this change but oh well |
| 02:18.15 | Thunder_Child | They might well be, but I doubt they are going to overrule the finance dept. |
| 02:19.20 | foxlit | But to return to the original point: "we need to display spell names in UI dialogs" is one use case, but it's of comparatively low impact: you'll just adapt to render that text a few frames later, |
| 02:19.41 | foxlit | users will shrug, and the world will keep on existing. |
| 02:19.55 | Funkeh` | I clearly stated it's doable, it's you that went off on a tangent |
| 02:20.04 | Funkeh` | It's just a major waste of time for and and dan |
| 02:20.10 | Funkeh` | us* and dan |
| 02:20.21 | znf | I read that "is just a major waste of dan" |
| 02:20.27 | nebula | truth |
| 02:20.46 | foxlit | There are other cases that are not as easily fixed |
| 02:21.06 | foxlit | And it would be nice to get API support for those before this rolls out |
| 02:21.51 | Semlar | they should implement the "await" command that allows you to call an async function and only continue execution when it completes fetching its data |
| 02:22.23 | foxlit | multi second stutters, Semlar |
| 02:22.38 | Torhal | rewrites Semlar in JavaScript. |
| 02:22.40 | foxlit | Each miss triggers a disk read |
| 02:22.53 | Funkeh` | i actually thought this was how live worked, and the async was just to offthread it |
| 02:22.58 | foxlit | So you kind of need to batch them |
| 02:24.03 | Semlar | hitting the disk for spell data actually locks the game up? |
| 02:24.11 | foxlit | (ie GetSpellInfo(id, synchronous) would be bad) |
| 02:24.24 | Semlar | it doesn't need to pause everything while it does it |
| 02:24.32 | foxlit | ui render would lock the game up |
| 02:24.40 | Semlar | i mean do it asyncronously |
| 02:24.40 | Funkeh` | see: loading on demand addons |
| 02:25.22 | Semlar | await does not lock everything while it's waiting for a result |
| 02:26.27 | Semlar | it would be like encapsulating the rest of the function in a callback for when the "await"ed function returns something |
| 02:26.49 | nebula | corountine all the things |
| 02:27.06 | foxlit | coroutine all the things indeed |
| 02:27.08 | Semlar | yeah, it would essentially just be wrapping everything in a coroutine except without the markup |
| 02:28.14 | Semlar | and also with GetItemInfo actually being changed to not return until it actually has all of its data |
| 02:28.28 | Semlar | unless you want just the things it's capable of returning immediately |
| 02:28.57 | foxlit | Sp anyway, annoying effects: GetSpellInfo(GetSpellInfo(spellID)) breaks as a "can I cast some form of this spell" check |
| 02:29.15 | Semlar | yeah, that's an annoying side effect |
| 02:29.23 | Funkeh` | getiteminfo queries the server, spellinfo does not |
| 02:29.45 | TheDanW | sometimes |
| 02:30.13 | foxlit | /cast requires localized names, so generating a /cast Wrath macro from IDs gets nasty before combat lockdown |
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| 02:31.48 | foxlit | (The concern is that you do something silly like reload in combat and suddenly all your macro action bar addons can't cast anything) |
| 02:32.38 | Semlar | did you need to be able to cast |
| 02:34.06 | TheDanW | would be easier if cast and use weren't so ambiguous, equip slots wouldn't function if it accepted ids |
| 02:34.45 | TheDanW | (for cast) |
| 02:34.48 | foxlit | Maybe /cast spell:id tokens could work around it, but you'd instead have a headache in /castrandom and /castsequence |
| 02:35.35 | foxlit | (similar to how /use item:12345 doesn't need a name) |
| 02:37.44 | foxlit | If you could keep the entire player ability abd mount set hot, these things become non-issues, but I somehow doubt adding another flag bit for all spells is reasonable |
| 02:41.01 | Funkeh` | TheDanW how are combat log events handled now, will they be delayed based on disk reading for every spell name that comes up? |
| 02:41.13 | TheDanW | since its an LRU and there's a good chance its displayed in your UI somewhere it'll probably be loaded |
| 02:41.22 | TheDanW | combat log events already handle async |
| 02:42.05 | TheDanW | there's plenty of times that creature, player, item, etc names are not available during an event |
| 02:42.33 | foxlit | The reload-in-combat-with-a-custom-action-bar case seems unlikely to have nice cache properties |
| 02:44.37 | TheDanW | don't reload in combat |
| 02:44.40 | TheDanW | ;p |
| 02:44.54 | Semlar | good advice |
| 02:44.59 | foxlit | Don't disconnect in combat either :P |
| 02:45.15 | TheDanW | yeah, i'd recommend against it for sure |
| 02:47.37 | Funkeh` | TheDanW will the stop treating you as 32bit janitor and let you get on with your todo list at some point |
| 02:49.55 | foxlit | I wonder how CastSpellByName works in this world |
| 02:50.04 | TheDanW | look up the current minimum memory reqs for WoW |
| 02:50.50 | Funkeh` | but we're on the border of a new expansion |
| 02:51.25 | nebula | maybe when they're on the border of 10.0 |
| 02:51.48 | Funkeh` | the minimum specs still list 32bit which was supposed to be dropped in october, and that didn't require an expansion |
| 02:51.56 | Funkeh` | err, what am i smoking |
| 02:52.01 | Funkeh` | pre windows 7 |
| 02:53.03 | Funkeh` | and dropping support for an OS without waiting for the next expansion is pretty ballsy |
| 02:54.51 | foxlit | You could drop support for 32-bit clients... in your addon. |
| 02:55.15 | Funkeh` | sure, they could make this only apply for the 32bit client :D |
| 02:55.24 | foxlit | (won't save you any engineering time, but might be amusing from a support perspective) |
| 02:58.45 | Funkeh` | "Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five to 30 per cent slow down, depending on the task and the processor model." |
| 02:59.04 | Funkeh` | see TheDanW now it's even more important to focus on reducing cpu usage, poor intel users! |
| 02:59.13 | Funkeh` | https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/02/intel_cpu_design_flaw/ |
| 03:12.31 | foxlit | It'd be nice to have an IsSpellCastableUnderIdealCircumstances(spellID) query that would just work(tm) with all the override spells, class requirements, instance requirements, etc |
| 03:15.47 | foxlit | IsSpellKnown fails for this purpose, iirc. double-GetSpellInfo is close (although it too fails since 7.0 by insisting that some druid abilities are castable without their talents). Order Hall mounta are class bound, but there was no reasonable indication of this in the latch they launched in |
| 03:22.38 | foxlit | (I want to know whether a spell ID represents something that a player might reasonably want on an action bar (because they have some hope of actually using it in the near future)) |
| 03:23.13 | nebula | sounds expensive |
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| 09:28.13 | Gnarfoz | so, in the end, it turns out Blizzard is secretly also supporting players on another planet, where 32-bit clients are ubiquitous :D |
| 09:28.26 | Gnarfoz | probably in league with SpaceX |
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| 09:57.28 | Alram | dammit elon |
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| 13:34.59 | Funkeh` | Gnarfoz: no, it's not because of 32bit, it's because their min requirements is 2GB, not 3 |
| 13:35.56 | Funkeh` | but for whatever reason, despite completely dropping 2 OS's midway through an expansion, they cannot increase this requirement or even just wait the time until next expansion and increase it |
| 13:37.13 | Gnarfoz | 2 is also a valid number for 32 |
| 13:37.17 | Guest43647 | I still pray for the impossible, to fully utilize gpu cores and put less load on the cpu :D |
| 13:37.24 | Gnarfoz | they might not be using the LAA flag |
| 13:37.49 | Gnarfoz | VIad: that's another task entirely (although still desireable) |
| 13:38.06 | Funkeh` | VIad: this is actually a tradeoff for less RAM to more cpu |
| 13:38.19 | Funkeh` | Gnarfoz: what does the LAA flag have to do with it? |
| 13:38.30 | Funkeh` | their minimum has to be 2GB |
| 13:38.36 | Gnarfoz | without it, 32b processes can only use 2GB? |
| 13:38.42 | Funkeh` | but that is already their minimum |
| 13:39.23 | VIad | when I play it's fun to see like 20% cpu utilization and 1 out of 60 gpu cores being used :d |
| 13:39.26 | Gnarfoz | as usual, I don't follow your logic. where else, if not from the 32 bit limits, do you think those requirements stem from? |
| 13:39.50 | Funkeh` | it matter not what those requirements stem from, those are the requirements |
| 13:39.54 | Gnarfoz | "hey someone said we should be able to run on 2GB RAM, so let's stick to supporting 32bit because that works as well!"? |
| 13:40.21 | Funkeh` | jesus dude |
| 13:40.42 | Funkeh` | the min is 2gb, that means that's the lowest of low. If the lowest configuration wow runs as is 3gb, then it breaks that |
| 13:41.26 | Gnarfoz | alright? |
| 13:41.42 | VIad | don't fight each other, fight the devs for better hardware utilization :( |
| 13:41.45 | Funkeh` | you can sit and speculate the reason for the 2GB min all you want, it's totally irrelevant |
| 13:41.53 | Funkeh` | the min is 2GB and that's what they are sticking with |
| 13:41.55 | Gnarfoz | does only supporting 64b somehow increase the minimum ram requirement above 2GB :o |
| 13:42.26 | Gnarfoz | I get your point, though |
| 13:42.48 | Gnarfoz | (just to make that clear, I'm not arguing against what you're saying) |
| 13:43.08 | Funkeh` | i'm not making the argument for sticking with the 2gb min |
| 13:43.26 | Funkeh` | i'm pointing out the irrationality of sticking with it, whilst dropping 2 OS's midway through an expansion |
| 13:43.31 | Funkeh` | but yeah |
| 13:43.34 | Gnarfoz | like you said, they should just change the requirements... but perhaps they didn't print "XP or higher" on the Legion boxes |
| 13:43.55 | Gnarfoz | (but did print "2GB or more"... someone got a Legion box handy?) |
| 13:44.06 | VIad | why is this a topic? :P |
| 13:44.14 | Funkeh` | scroll up |
| 13:44.15 | VIad | sounds very nerdy thing to argue about |
| 13:44.42 | Funkeh` | it stems from a API change they made on PTR |
| 13:44.48 | VIad | something dropping winxp support because its old and also keeping the 2gb print on the box or something |
| 13:44.55 | VIad | what API? :o |
| 13:45.00 | Gnarfoz | GetSpellInfo? |
| 13:45.02 | Gnarfoz | I think |
| 13:45.06 | VIad | oh |
| 13:45.23 | VIad | never thought RAM amount would affect ingame API :D |
| 13:45.53 | Funkeh` | they don't want to store the entire DB of spell names in RAM |
| 13:46.03 | VIad | ok got it |
| 13:46.24 | VIad | so potato users will experience that the API dont return all the info like on regular computers |
| 13:46.42 | Gnarfoz | no, everyone will |
| 13:46.59 | VIad | oh? thought it was only if you had a 32bit client or 2gb ram :d |
| 13:47.28 | Funkeh` | if only, they we could just tell 32bit users to go away |
| 13:47.34 | Gnarfoz | ^ |
| 13:47.36 | Funkeh` | then* we |
| 13:47.40 | VIad | arent they killing 32bit support anyway? |
| 13:48.16 | Funkeh` | they've made no indication of that, but like i said earlier, this isn't really a 32bit issue, it's the fact that their min spec states 2gb, not 3+ |
| 13:49.27 | Funkeh` | with the killing off xp/vista in october they had announced it in like, april? quite the heads up |
| 13:49.51 | VIad | I assumed after this, the next step is naturally to kill 32 bit support :d |
| 13:50.31 | VIad | and bump up the hardware req specs, force the potatoes to upgrade to at least potato-sli or toaster-crossfire |
| 13:50.32 | Funkeh` | it's possible that this is a problem due to the added content in 7.3.5 itself |
| 13:51.06 | VIad | the blizzard framexml is so large now that it cant be ran on xp users :x |
| 13:56.20 | VIad | I worry that blizz will add more useless visuals that take more performance but don't improve the obvious cpu/gpu issues :( |
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| 14:22.10 | Andols | Are they sending any info in the event about what spell I'd is ready |
| 14:22.44 | Andols | Or do you have to try again and hope it was your spell and not another addons? |
| 14:24.02 | Gnarfoz | well, considering the past... |
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| 14:45.20 | nevcairiel | the respective item even tells you which item just loaded, so one can only hope |
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| 14:45.49 | nevcairiel | event* |
| 14:47.16 | Gnarfoz | Funkeh`: https://i.imgur.com/OLst03e.jpg can't be the box, since they do indeed list XP and Vista... :D (also Macs need double the RAM) |
| 14:49.06 | nevcairiel | they should just bump that with bfa if its crippling them so much recently |
| 14:51.20 | Funkeh` | i dunno man, how they justify dropping the one and not the other, :/ |
| 14:51.43 | Funkeh` | i find it unlikely there's a lot of windows 7+ users with less than 4GB of RAM |
| 14:52.01 | Thunder_Child | That play wow* |
| 14:52.12 | Funkeh` | in existence |
| 14:52.22 | Thunder_Child | No, I suspect there are quite a few. |
| 14:52.51 | nevcairiel | stopping support for an OS that was in itself removed from support from its creator years ago is quite something else then telling people to go buy new memory |
| 14:53.16 | Funkeh` | it's stil going against their min specs |
| 14:53.27 | Funkeh` | doesn't matter if another vendor dropped support for it |
| 14:59.45 | Funkeh` | 2% of steam users use 2GB or less on windows platforms, but i cannot filter out xp and vista, so that might be even less |
| 15:01.24 | Alram | i think it was bumped for BfA |
| 15:01.27 | Alram | but i'd have to check |
| 15:01.42 | nevcairiel | i doubt bfa had such info already |
| 15:01.53 | Alram | saw something in catalog for the alpha |
| 15:01.55 | Funkeh` | i think that's probably irrelevant if this change is to offset additions in the 7.3.5 patch itself |
| 15:02.41 | Alram | yeah ok those are ph still :D |
| 15:02.55 | Alram | 2GB boys |
| 15:03.40 | Funkeh` | according to steam stats xp and vista is 0.3% of windows users, that's quite a lot less than the 2% low RAM users |
| 15:19.28 | Gnarfoz | (btw: steam survey does not cover "steam users" but "survey participants", so YMMV... but it's still probably the biggest public data set on this) |
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| 16:02.02 | Talyrius | Steam Hardware & Software Survey participants ~= World of Warcraft subscribers |
| 16:02.38 | Thunder_Child | More like ~== |
| 16:02.56 | Talyrius | Those stats are certainly helpful for discussions and decision making at a macro-level, but they aren't an accurate representation of a single game or genre. Blizzard collects their own data about their WoW subscribers and that's what their decision making is going to be based off of. Unfortunately, we don't have access to that data. |
| 16:03.06 | Torhal | rewrites Thunder_Child in TypeScript. |
| 16:03.31 | foxlit | Tornado, how did you escape from the transaction verification mines? |
| 16:03.33 | Thunder_Child | pfft, just rewriting broken code Torhal. |
| 16:04.08 | foxlit | Inconsistent autocorrect in this client is meh :( |
| 16:04.29 | Thunder_Child | You mean tab complete> |
| 16:04.42 | foxlit | No, this keyboard has no tab key. |
| 16:04.43 | Thunder_Child | s/>/?/ |
| 16:04.56 | Torhal | There is nobody named Tornado in channel. |
| 16:05.03 | Torhal | So likely autocorrect on my name. |
| 16:05.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Kinesia (~Kinesia@115-64-111-2.tpgi.com.au) |
| 16:05.28 | Torhal | Doesn't make the rest of the sentence make sense, but... |
| 16:05.28 | Thunder_Child | That sounds like a less than awesome keyboard. |
| 16:05.46 | foxlit | It refuses to do it twice, though, so maybe I typoed something. |
| 16:06.11 | foxlit | Touchscreen on a tablet, Thunder_Child. |
| 16:06.42 | Thunder_Child | So...yea. |
| 16:07.37 | Torhal | foxlit: Was that your way of trying to tell me that you did place the order? |
| 16:09.03 | foxlit | Well, an opportunistic attempt at that. Setting up outgoing email for tagged aliases takes a bit more effort. |
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| 16:14.38 | Thunder_Child | Slacker. |
| 16:20.17 | Torhal | foxlit: Ok, processing the order. |
| 16:28.08 | foxlit | I'm somewhat surprised at how manual this process is; you'd think you could just mail me a link to click or something :) |
| 16:30.42 | Torhal | ¯\_(ã)_/¯ |
| 16:31.57 | Thunder_Child | He could, but Torhal is just really bored. |
| 16:33.01 | Torhal | o.O |
| 17:14.09 | fewyn | i haven't made enough gold in the last month to stay afloat with wow tokens |
| 17:14.12 | fewyn | rip |
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| 18:53.28 | Thunder_Child | 54 badges for steam's winter sale and I am still missing one >.< |
| 18:58.26 | foxlit | ~36 needed for a full set in expectation. |
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