| 00:01.23 | Amarande | oh yay thank the gods to have reached hillsbrad at last |
| 00:01.55 | Amarande | I love Ghostlands, it's always been my fave 10-20 zone for horde, but when you go there as an elemental shaman, you get nigh on zero appropriately statted items :p |
| 00:07.21 | Mr_Rabies | my fave 1-20 zone as horde is durotar |
| 00:07.34 | Mr_Rabies | all that warlock stuff is neat |
| 00:07.40 | Mr_Rabies | er wait |
| 00:07.52 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: i dont touch automatics |
| 00:07.52 | Mr_Rabies | that ends at like 10 then barrens |
| 00:08.05 | Mr_Rabies | disregard i've had a few too many margaritas |
| 00:09.33 | Arrowmaster | at least not hydraulic slushbox automatics, the higher end ones that are computer controlled manuals are probably good but i havent driven one |
| 00:12.53 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: you did make them with something good like Don Julio, right? :) |
| 00:13.09 | Mr_Rabies | uh cuervo |
| 00:13.25 | Amarande | heh, I pretty much won't buy tequila anymore unless I can spring for Don Julio |
| 00:13.59 | Mr_Rabies | this was the parents' supply |
| 00:14.11 | Mr_Rabies | oh god i'm a mess spilling cheese dip everywhere |
| 00:14.15 | Mr_Rabies | somebody stop me |
| 00:14.25 | Thunder_Child | No |
| 00:14.51 | Mr_Rabies | i'm eating with the left side of my mouth despite really needing some dental work done on that, i haven't eaten with the left side of my mouth since halloween 2012 |
| 00:15.04 | Mr_Rabies | i regret everything |
| 00:15.13 | Mr_Rabies | curse you, tequila |
| 00:16.41 | Mr_Rabies | at least i'm filling my stomach with corn to soak up the remaining tequila just as the mezoamerican gods intended |
| 00:26.04 | Amarande | hrm |
| 00:26.09 | Amarande | hillsbrad gear isn't much better :| |
| 00:26.20 | Amarande | I think I have an idea as to why elemental shaman may have popularity issues :S |
| 00:26.33 | Mr_Rabies | there's always cloth! |
| 00:26.43 | Amarande | If you don't have looms ... well, you're powerful enough at base, and the gear gives stamina enough certainly |
| 00:27.05 | Amarande | but you get to deal with going your first 25 or so levels with people looking at you like you don't know how to gear, LOL |
| 00:28.34 | Amarande | it makes me wonder why there's not many int leather rewards at lower levels though |
| 00:28.52 | Amarande | although this seems to do an about face by the 30s, as I remember when doing what leveling I did on my monk before giving up the pvp server |
| 00:29.00 | Amarande | eventually you get to the point where you start getting *nothing but* int leather LOL |
| 00:29.07 | Amarande | Or so it feels. :) |
| 00:34.40 | Mr_Rabies | they did add in a ton of gear that didn't exist before with cata |
| 00:34.47 | Mr_Rabies | but i've found you have to go on the proper route to get it |
| 00:35.14 | foxlit | I don’t understand why you’d voluntarily level using a caster spec. |
| 00:35.37 | Mr_Rabies | like, early int mail may not exist in say, loch modan, but does in westfall instead |
| 00:35.49 | Amarande | foxlit: heh, why? |
| 00:35.52 | Mr_Rabies | but also there's not really a penalty for using cloth that early |
| 00:36.04 | Amarande | well, actually, I suppose there are only 3 or so classes that actually have a meaningful caster/melee selection like that |
| 00:36.08 | Mr_Rabies | casters nowadays don't have near the problems they used to |
| 00:36.12 | Mr_Rabies | their downtime is negligible |
| 00:36.23 | foxlit | melee downtime is like nonexistent |
| 00:36.25 | Amarande | boomkin and elemental shaman are both a pleasure to play, wouldn't want to level as holy pally though LOL |
| 00:36.42 | foxlit | plus the sheer annoyance of spell pushback. |
| 00:36.48 | Mr_Rabies | i prefer melee myself, but that even applies at cap |
| 00:36.53 | Mr_Rabies | cast bars are lame |
| 00:37.10 | Amarande | so is elemental shaman, if you happen to get a dustup you just throw a healing surge |
| 00:37.37 | Amarande | even most elites are helpless before ele shamans nowadays, since unless they can basically 2 shot you there's no way they can win |
| 00:38.39 | Mr_Rabies | last time i played a shaman 1) strength gear was best and 2) the scarlet set had strength on it |
| 00:38.42 | Amarande | it's probably actually close to the strongest of all leveling specs now, partially for that reason |
| 00:38.49 | Mr_Rabies | for enhancement |
| 00:38.50 | Mr_Rabies | so |
| 00:38.51 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 00:39.04 | foxlit | there’s approximately 0 elites that you’ll encounter while levelling. |
| 00:39.11 | Amarande | you can slay at range, you almost can't be killed unless the enemy is a *really* strong elite or you bump into a group |
| 00:39.23 | Amarande | basically it has all the good things about mage and none of the bad, heh |
| 00:40.35 | Amarande | foxlit: alliance have a couple in duskwood, and horde have a couple in ghostlands |
| 00:40.58 | Amarande | mostly cake ... Mor'Ladim and Kel'gash are helpless |
| 00:41.26 | Amarande | the lich guy in the tomb in duskwood seemed to be a bit of a pain but I seem to remember there being either adds or a gimmick |
| 00:41.44 | Mr_Rabies | i farmed the elites in uh, wetlands on my spriest |
| 00:41.46 | Mr_Rabies | back in the day |
| 00:41.50 | Amarande | Dar'Khan is possibly out of reach, but only because he has so much HP and there are adds in the room which might respawn during the time it takes to down him |
| 00:41.53 | Mr_Rabies | i could handle elites 5+ levels above me |
| 00:41.59 | Mr_Rabies | in vanilla |
| 00:42.26 | Mr_Rabies | in dun baldar? |
| 00:42.27 | Mr_Rabies | i forget |
| 00:42.40 | Mr_Rabies | not elite and probably not even hostile anymore since they're dark iron |
| 00:43.53 | Mr_Rabies | http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/chogall/Seibar/advanced there's my shaman from long ago |
| 00:44.14 | Amarande | (more to the point, I'm pretty sure Dar'Khan has a fear, and there's no way you'd keep all the mobs in the whole vicinity down long enough for that not to pose a possible threat ... elite + adds is to be avoided) |
| 00:45.00 | Amarande | but yeah, any elite that can be fought alone (e.g., Kel'Gash or Mor'Ladim) is going to drop like a sack of bricks to an ele shaman |
| 00:45.17 | Amarande | because you've got both great damage output and that heal that's so powerful while leveling |
| 00:46.19 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: heh, you must have had a different priest class than I did |
| 00:46.34 | Amarande | my first character was a spriest and I never had an easy time at all, but then that was BC where leveling as a caster actually was issuous |
| 00:46.35 | Mr_Rabies | shadow priests were insane in vanill |
| 00:46.36 | Mr_Rabies | a |
| 00:46.45 | Mr_Rabies | like, totally nuts |
| 00:46.48 | Mr_Rabies | unkillable |
| 00:47.27 | Mr_Rabies | didn't do -great- dps but did plenty and were impossible to kill |
| 00:47.34 | Mr_Rabies | they had more defenses than a bear druid |
| 00:47.49 | foxlit | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:51.24 | Mr_Rabies | officially just stuck a straw in my nose |
| 00:51.31 | Mr_Rabies | tequila wins |
| 00:53.49 | Mr_Rabies | this is more of my jam foxlit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVQ-nej6t8 |
| 00:57.22 | Mr_Rabies | (watch shin mazinger, it owns) |
| 00:57.26 | Mr_Rabies | wholly and absolutely |
| 00:57.58 | Mr_Rabies | it manages to combine giant robots, zeus, and tristan and isolde in a way that not only works, but adds to the story |
| 00:58.32 | Mr_Rabies | also an onsen run by a ruthless band of assassins |
| 00:58.46 | Mr_Rabies | it's so insane it loops back around |
| 01:00.19 | foxlit | Let’s do some comparative scoring |
| 01:00.43 | foxlit | ✓ < HAS GIANT ROBOTS IN OPENING > ✓ |
| 01:01.21 | foxlit | ✓ < COMICALLY INSANE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS > X |
| 01:01.46 | Amarande | aright, time for GoT |
| 01:02.19 | Mr_Rabies | everyone in shin mazinger is comically insane so |
| 01:02.26 | Mr_Rabies | it's not just the facial expression |
| 01:03.30 | Mr_Rabies | their robot is the literal physical emodiment of zeus and their enemies consisit of a guy that calls himself doctor hell, two lovers fused together vertically, and a nazi with a detachable head |
| 01:03.44 | Mr_Rabies | commanding an army of evil mechanical monsters |
| 01:03.58 | foxlit | Yes, I was looking for a way to put “Detachable head” somewhere in there. |
| 01:05.02 | Mr_Rabies | it's directed by the guy that did giant robo and g gundam |
| 01:05.07 | foxlit | And i’m guessing that’s the main protagonist 1:20 into the op. |
| 01:05.09 | Mr_Rabies | and it's just as insane as both |
| 01:06.29 | Mr_Rabies | oh, and their other main enemy is a dwarf spearhunter that can shapeshift into ANYONE |
| 01:06.36 | foxlit | I’m not quite sure why it isn’t appealing. |
| 01:07.15 | Mr_Rabies | it basically mixes a ton of go nagai stuff into a single story |
| 01:07.16 | Mr_Rabies | and it owns |
| 01:07.37 | foxlit | judging solely from the op, it seems like an animated superhero comic book with from like the 70s. |
| 01:07.38 | Mr_Rabies | it brings violence jack characters into the mazinger mythos and just goes hog wild |
| 01:07.49 | Mr_Rabies | yup, based on a 70s comic |
| 01:08.50 | Mr_Rabies | the manga was just as insane in 1974, but this is really the first thing to do it justice since |
| 01:09.49 | Mr_Rabies | http://i36.mangareader.net/mazinger-z/1/mazinger-z-844360.jpg |
| 01:10.00 | Mr_Rabies | jesus grandpa give me a break holy shit |
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| 02:03.36 | airtonix | Mr_Rabies: what |
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| 06:22.03 | Torhal | Ok, who killed the channel? |
| 06:22.41 | Kalroth | poor channel :/ |
| 06:22.47 | tz | sorry :( |
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| 06:39.44 | Shirik_ | ~lart tz |
| 06:39.44 | purl | pours hot grits down the front of tz's pants |
| 06:39.45 | Shirik_ | PURL, OBEY ME |
| 06:39.56 | airtonix | oh ok |
| 06:41.34 | tz | kinky |
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| 08:45.29 | airtonix | Torhal: did you see edge of tomorrow? |
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| 12:13.06 | karl_w_w | I haven't airtonix but I heard it's OK |
| 12:13.07 | karl_w_w | how does that make you feel? |
| 12:14.18 | airtonix | misc |
| 12:17.37 | karl_w_w | very mature of you |
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| 12:34.55 | airtonix | that's like just your opinion man |
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| 14:35.50 | Torhal | airtonix: No clue what that even is. |
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| 14:36.06 | nevcairiel | a movie |
| 14:36.47 | Torhal | Oh, ok. |
| 15:13.44 | Fisker | Quite possibly good morning Lopeppeppy but wait it's Monday |
| 15:14.25 | Lopeppeppy | Nope, it's a craptastic Monday, but hello just the same. :) |
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| 15:23.03 | jleclanche | kd3: http://alexanderbrazie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/postmortem-4-hungarfen-mushroom-dancer.html |
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| 15:38.43 | Lopeppeppy | Oooh. Conference in Toronto next year that I should attend! |
| 15:39.00 | karl_w_w | but next year is so far away |
| 15:39.08 | Ressy | Oh? Which one Lopeppeppy |
| 15:39.19 | Lopeppeppy | SCA Heraldry conference in June. |
| 15:44.22 | Ressy | I'm thinking next June I'll hit up CTS2015. :) |
| 15:47.52 | Lopeppeppy | Okay, CTS really gets me weird search results. What's YOUR version? |
| 15:50.04 | Ressy | heh. Canadian Telecom Summit. |
| 15:50.12 | Ressy | 2014's just started today, and runs til wed |
| 15:56.32 | Lopeppeppy | That wasn't a result on my search, nope. Darn 'merica centric results from a search done by a 'merican! Google discriminates. |
| 15:56.39 | kd3 | yawn. getting called for jury duty is boring when you don't even leave the waiting room and they say at 11:30 (oh, you lot still here? go home for the day) |
| 15:57.21 | Ressy | lol Lopeppeppy |
| 15:57.46 | Ressy | Looking forward to November tho. "ISP Summit" |
| 15:58.06 | kd3 | thanks for the link jleclanche |
| 16:01.47 | kd3 | re my last line, I was so bored I started reading the "brynhildr in the darkness" manga on my phone |
| 16:06.16 | Amarande | kd3: sounds like my last visit to state jury duty |
| 16:07.15 | Amarande | wouldn't know what federal jury duty is like, I've only been called once and I had to plead hardship for logistical reasons :P |
| 16:09.00 | Amarande | as in, being that I do not own a car, having to be at a courthouse halfway across the state in the AM would be prohibitively expensive at my income level |
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| 16:11.25 | Lopeppeppy | Plague, Inc. All you need to pass the boring time! |
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| 16:12.01 | Amarande | (particularly, inter-city buses around here do not run early enough, so I would be forced to take a taxi at probably $100+ each way or spend the night before in a hotel at probably $100+ :p) |
| 16:13.09 | Amarande | though I'll be kind of unsurprised if the feds reject most hardship claims in the future, especially in Connecticut thanks to their lame-o state drivers' licence/ID policies LOL |
| 16:13.33 | Amarande | Heh Peppy ... Blizzard should come out with some kind of Angry Birds like game on those lines |
| 16:13.52 | Amarande | Angry Forsaken, where you lob canisters of that green destroys-everything blight :) |
| 16:14.11 | Lopeppeppy | Amarande, that's Plants vs. Zombies. |
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| 16:25.17 | Amarande | alpha folks: does 6.0 still work with wine, or is it time for us to accept a long, hard winter of native windows usage to continue to play wow? |
| 16:25.24 | kd3 | it works fine |
| 16:25.32 | Amarande | ah, nice. |
| 16:25.37 | kd3 | just, as ever and always, keep up to date with wine |
| 16:25.39 | Amarande | perhaps I will abandon windows altogether in the near future. |
| 16:25.58 | Amarande | another reason to play WoW instead of LOTRO or SW:TOR :) |
| 16:26.14 | Amarande | (actually I'm not sure about SW:TOR, but I know LOTRO is problematic because while the game itself apparently runs fine on Wine, the launcher is very .NET dependent) |
| 16:27.37 | Amarande | other things I learned recently that seemed surprising ... I had always thought that Wine was a Linux only thing, apparently not only does it work with BSD, but apparently on FreeBSD it may even work *better* than on Linux |
| 16:28.03 | Amarande | Not 100% sure why, given that Linux has had so much more development love from wine ... I'm guessing that it might be a matter of better synchronicity between the nVidia drivers and release kernels |
| 16:28.28 | Amarande | (on Linux, there is that constant issue of kernel versions being a fragmented soup across distros and installations compared to FreeBSD where there's well, the kernel) |
| 16:31.54 | kd3 | well, that was a good header |
| 16:32.20 | Amarande | heh, today is the US's first cup game |
| 16:32.23 | Amarande | I expect this to go badly |
| 16:32.45 | Amarande | let's face it ... we're the USA, as far as soccer is concerned we're like the noob in quest greens trying to join a battleground with the big boys |
| 16:36.17 | karl_w_w | what is soccer |
| 16:36.47 | karl_w_w | you guys aren't even playing the same sport as everyone else :P |
| 16:41.41 | Unkle | It's ok. We're fine with being odd-man-out on sports ball. After all, we're still the world's reserve currency and the one practically everyone turns to when they need military help, food or money. |
| 16:42.11 | Unkle | Uncle Sam indeed. :) |
| 16:45.52 | kd3 | adding insult to injury, geez |
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| 16:59.08 | Lopeppeppy | I just got a nice new TV as an anniversary present, for watching American Football of Joy. |
| 16:59.57 | Unkle | Lopeppeppy: Go Pats? |
| 17:00.13 | Lopeppeppy | Every day all day, Unkle. Go Pats or Go Home. |
| 17:00.38 | Unkle | (is not a NFL fan, much prefers NHL) |
| 17:02.35 | Lopeppeppy | Harumph. :) |
| 17:02.59 | Unkle | Alas, Hockey is pretty much over for the season. |
| 17:03.30 | Lopeppeppy | Football is soon to start. |
| 17:05.13 | TC-Work | Unkle: At this point the currenct bit should go to China since they own a rather sizeable portion of out debt. |
| 17:05.18 | Unkle | I am genuinely happy for you, but you'll pardon me if I don't share your enthusiasm. |
| 17:05.34 | TC-Work | currency* |
| 17:05.40 | TC-Work | our* |
| 17:05.43 | TC-Work | *sigh* |
| 17:05.45 | Unkle | TC-Work: But they still hold dollars as their reserve currency. |
| 17:06.35 | Lopeppeppy | All sports is good sports. |
| 17:14.35 | Amarande | that makes me wonder |
| 17:14.41 | Amarande | what do they call association football in Australia? |
| 17:14.46 | Amarande | since you guys also have "Australian Rules Football" |
| 17:15.00 | Amarande | (actually hmm are any of the aussies actually here atm) |
| 17:15.38 | Amarande | and yay, finally got the fonts to stick in msbt |
| 17:15.52 | Amarande | apparently, certain fonts will not stick properly and I am not sure why ... I'm guessing it's a matter of addon/file loading order perhaps :S |
| 17:16.17 | Amarande | hrm, could be msbt is loading before fonter, so a lot of fonts are not actually available to it when it loads and thus it falls back to default ... |
| 17:17.52 | Amarande | also hrm, now to figure out how to defeat yetimus without actually having to get a grp as advertised :p |
| 17:18.08 | Amarande | stupid other yeti coming along |
| 17:18.28 | Fisker | did you hear about that conference in Anaheim Lopeppeppy ? |
| 17:18.39 | Amarande | (there any good spot in its path to fight it without adds? being an elemental shaman this should be easy thanks to just how OP healing surge is at this level, but it has a huge knockback and adds must be avoided) |
| 17:19.26 | Amarande | given how laughably easy G2 quests have been on ele, though, G3 must still be fairly easy :) |
| 17:19.43 | Lopeppeppy | Fisker, I did hear! And I heard that there's floor space and everything! |
| 17:19.53 | Fisker | floor space! |
| 17:20.32 | Amarande | floor space! it's what you sleep on at conventions! :) |
| 17:20.49 | Amarande | or probably will the rate things are going with big cons |
| 17:21.03 | Amarande | since the way hotel room prices are going, next thing you need to cram so many folks into a room that a couple folks will be on the floor :p |
| 17:28.47 | Amarande | or even if the prices are affordable, the way the number of hotel *rooms* is going |
| 17:28.50 | Amarande | especially for ones like dragon con :) |
| 17:33.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Thunderbi@c-98-212-84-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 17:33.27 | Dagmar | Winding up on the floor is a sign you're doing it right, anyway. |
| 17:33.48 | Dagmar | If you actually slept on your bed, clearly you weren't partying hard enough. |
| 17:34.01 | Dagmar | Bonus points are awarded for waking up in a bathtub. |
| 17:34.22 | foxlit | with kidneys missing, clearly. |
| 17:34.43 | Lopeppeppy | Or with extra kidneys! |
| 17:37.09 | Dagmar | ...just so long as you're not covered in vomit. |
| 17:37.30 | Lopeppeppy | Eew. |
| 17:39.18 | Amarande | Peppy, you've been hanging out around Forsaken for too long I think :) |
| 17:39.22 | Amarande | but hey ... FOR THE HORDE :D |
| 17:39.23 | Unkle | Dagmar: An Andrew WK school of partying? |
| 17:40.04 | Amarande | foxlit: heh, didn't they find that one to be a hoax? |
| 17:40.19 | Amarande | mind you, it seems hoaxish on the surface ... if someone's going to do something that heinous, you'd think they'd just kill the person involved so they wouldn't talk :p |
| 17:46.59 | Jamash | Amarande: No way it totally happened on an episode of the Venture Bros. |
| 17:48.25 | Dagmar | Unkle: What can I say... I'm old school. |
| 17:48.41 | TC-Work | Well if I was going to be covered in vomit, the bathroom does seem like the best place. |
| 17:48.43 | Lopeppeppy | I watched an Elementary episode where they grew extra ears. My ick factor is pretty low for body parts. |
| 17:49.02 | Dagmar | _Pros_ do not vomit. |
| 17:49.13 | Unkle | Dagmar: Rock on. |
| 17:49.34 | TC-Work | Who said it was your vomit? |
| 17:49.55 | Dagmar | Pros don't let amatuers vomit all over them, either. |
| 17:50.11 | TC-Work | No one is perfect. |
| 17:50.50 | Dagmar | This methodology is the reason hacker cons can make epic amounts of alcohol disappear with a minimum of upsetting accidents. |
| 17:51.36 | Dagmar | DefCon can out-drink the fucking U.S. Navy and have fewer people barfing. |
| 17:52.18 | Unkle | Because - Professionalism. |
| 17:53.03 | Amarande | hrm, another alpha question coming to mind |
| 17:53.09 | Amarande | what's replacing hit, if anything, on existing gear items? |
| 17:53.26 | Amarande | or are such items just going to have the hit stat removed and become cut-rate items of their item level? |
| 17:53.39 | Amarande | e.g., I've picked up at random a Scouting Buckler of the Tiger, which gives +2 agi and +2 hit at present |
| 17:53.59 | Fisker | I guess those would be reworked to give something else than hit |
| 17:54.02 | Amarande | in 6.0, does it just give +2 agi and nada else, making it worse than other greens, or is hit being replaced with haste or crit or something to maintain budget? |
| 17:54.18 | Fisker | Simca has the exclusive |
| 17:54.20 | kd3 | patch notes... any hit/expertise is replaced with another secondary stat |
| 17:54.27 | Amarande | ah, so it is replaced then |
| 17:54.39 | Amarande | it had also occurred to me to wonder if maybe it just stayed hit heh |
| 17:54.48 | kd3 | have you... read the patch notes? http://wowpedia.org/Patch_6.0.1#Hit_and_expertise_removal |
| 17:55.00 | Amarande | (since there have been other cases of stats being phased out where the stats were left on legacy gear and simply no longer occur on new high level gear) |
| 17:55.24 | Amarande | like what was it ... when they stripped spellpower from gear and moved it to being int, there were still legacy gems that gave SP (might still be, not sure now) |
| 17:55.57 | nevcairiel | the way hit removal works you cannot have legacy items tho |
| 17:56.06 | nevcairiel | there is no replacement stat, the whole concept just goes away |
| 17:56.14 | Amarande | guessing at low levels it's probably going to become crit |
| 17:56.30 | Amarande | since haste seems to be more or less nonexistent until BC levels and mastery is by definition a non active stat till 80 |
| 17:56.32 | kd3 | from the patch notes: "Hit and Expertise bonuses on all items and item enhancements (gems, enchants, etc.) have been converted into Critical Strike, Haste, or Mastery." |
| 17:56.43 | nevcairiel | obviously low level items might be not perfectly balanced because they are just going to script-replace them all |
| 17:56.53 | nevcairiel | but who cares about low level balance |
| 17:57.03 | TC-Work | Twinks? |
| 17:57.06 | Amarande | (though otoh there are items with haste at low levels now thanks to heirlooms, so *shrug* ... wouldn't be mastery though, ofc) |
| 17:57.14 | Amarande | nevcairiel: people leveling on pvp servers, probably |
| 17:57.23 | kd3 | oh noes, pvp happening on a pvp server |
| 17:57.27 | kd3 | ./violin |
| 17:57.27 | Amarande | although even that doesn't really start to be an issue till 40ish (then it hits you like a sack of bricks) |
| 17:57.56 | Amarande | kd3: violin for people actually concerning themselves with being able to be competitive in world pvp with their level peers where world pvp actually happens with such? :) |
| 17:58.08 | Ermad | low level hasnt been balance for a long time, you just do some much damage compared to max health at that point |
| 17:58.09 | kd3 | peers? at low level? |
| 17:58.10 | kd3 | hahahahaha |
| 17:58.11 | nevcairiel | TC-Work: eh, its not like the items are just broken, they may just favor certain roles/classes much more then others, but thats irrelevant for someone just leveling through |
| 17:58.29 | Amarande | kd3: since crz, at-level pvp has become an actual regular occurrence on pvp servers |
| 17:58.47 | Amarande | before crz, yeah, that would have been an appropriate reaction, because well, super lopsided faction balance meaning you never actually see anyone of the other faction if you're on the big side |
| 17:58.48 | kd3 | generally by 90s ganking lowbies, as has been the case forever |
| 17:58.53 | kd3 | case in point: STV |
| 17:58.59 | TC-Work | nevcairiel: I was not arguing that.... |
| 17:59.01 | kd3 | s/90s/max-levels/ |
| 17:59.13 | Amarande | e.g. Illidan where the joke is that if you see an Alliance get out your Master Ball :) |
| 17:59.39 | Amarande | but since CRZ, it's actually become a regular occurrence to encounter world PvP on PvP servers again, at least at 40+ when you start hitting the choke points where there are very limited zone choices |
| 18:00.04 | Amarande | prior to 40 it's rare, because there are so many different zones to pick from in the 10-39 range |
| 18:00.09 | kd3 | if people are complaining about getting camped on a pvp server, I have zero sympathy. they knew what they were signing up for and this has been the case since vanilla |
| 18:00.50 | Amarande | kd3: actually the real issue is not so much getting camped (go elsewhere or queue instances if it's a problem) |
| 18:00.55 | nevcairiel | prior to 40 or so the leveling zones are also quite distinct, they dont overlap that much |
| 18:01.20 | Amarande | it's quests that require a long uninterrupted stint in a single area (which unfortunately also first rear their heads around 40 or so ...) |
| 18:01.36 | kd3 | that sounds alot like getting camped to me |
| 18:01.39 | Amarande | I still can't imagine people managing to do battle of darrowshire on a pvp server unless you get up at 2 in the morning :) |
| 18:02.05 | Amarande | kd3: also, nowadays 90s aren't even all that big of an issue, most of the time they kill you once for jollies and then go |
| 18:02.24 | nevcairiel | that sounds like an issue to me |
| 18:02.25 | Amarande | the only time I've seen a 90 actually camp was once in EPL and that was semi justified (he was camping an area not people, and because he was a hunter and a rare pet spawns in that spot) |
| 18:02.32 | nevcairiel | i know why i would never play on pvp =p |
| 18:03.21 | jleclanche | I need 5+ high quality popular animated movies with a lot of dialogue. Frozen and Ratatouille are out, but they're the kind I need. Go. |
| 18:03.31 | Fisker | lol |
| 18:03.37 | Amarande | the real issue is that if you're leveling your first character on a pvp server, you don't have looms yet, and have extreme trouble being competitive with opposite faction players who do |
| 18:03.37 | nevcairiel | toy story! |
| 18:03.39 | Fisker | MLP |
| 18:03.45 | jleclanche | Toy story, bam that's three |
| 18:04.02 | Amarande | although now I see the other shoe drop on Blizzard's part ... partially it might be a conspiracy theory, but only partially, since it's pretty damn sound business on their part really :) |
| 18:04.04 | foxlit | do we just link to to wikipedia’s List of Pixar animated works? |
| 18:04.04 | nevcairiel | not sure how popular, but I liked 9 |
| 18:04.04 | kd3 | pvp problems have pvp solutions. if you're having trouble, call in higher level players |
| 18:04.12 | jleclanche | nevcairiel strikes and scores |
| 18:04.20 | kd3 | again, this kind of thing I have no sympathy for |
| 18:04.29 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: two more and I can send this. |
| 18:04.36 | nevcairiel | how to drain a dragon? |
| 18:04.44 | Amarande | (make it important to have heirlooms to level on a pvp server, and you're basically guaranteeing you're going to sell boosts or realm transfers to people starting on such servers because you need a top level to be able to GET looms) |
| 18:05.09 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: is that the spin off movie where the dragons from how to strain your dragon are captured by blood elves who feed off their magicks? |
| 18:05.22 | nevcairiel | well minus typos |
| 18:05.30 | jleclanche | but yes that's four |
| 18:05.32 | jleclanche | one more. |
| 18:05.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Cide (~eandre@s213-103-203-212.cust.tele2.se) |
| 18:05.58 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 18:05.59 | Amarande | kd3: is it still reliable to call in higher level players unless actually partied with them? |
| 18:06.04 | jleclanche | also Fisker mlp is out for several reasons, one of it being it's not a movie. |
| 18:06.12 | Amarande | (thanks to crz not guaranteeing that you'll face the same opposition when you get back over there) |
| 18:06.19 | nevcairiel | there is a bunch of asterix movies |
| 18:06.21 | kd3 | guildies? hearth and ask for help in /2? |
| 18:06.30 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: Not popular enough unfortunately, I thought of it |
| 18:06.43 | nevcairiel | brave then |
| 18:06.49 | Amarande | kd3: had not had a guild yet, was planning to wait till high level when I actually knew more about good guilds on illidan (though I decided in the end that pvp wasn't really for me and went to area 52 instead) |
| 18:06.49 | jleclanche | I dont like brave. |
| 18:07.00 | nevcairiel | despicable me? |
| 18:07.03 | Amarande | kd3: hearth and ask for help in /2 is where I'm wondering about how reliable it is thanks to crz |
| 18:07.06 | Unkle | jleclanche: The Incredibles (Pixar), The Rescuers, Jungle Book, etc? |
| 18:07.16 | kd3 | then I don't know what to say. you signed up for leveling on a pvp server without friends to help |
| 18:07.18 | jleclanche | alright something in this lot should do |
| 18:07.21 | jleclanche | thanks guys, afk. |
| 18:07.27 | Amarande | as in, will you be able to come back to the same guy to lay the smack down on him or does he get to karma houdini because you'll get a different crz instance and he won't be there? :) |
| 18:07.30 | kd3 | world pvp is unfair. there's no two ways about it |
| 18:09.06 | Amarande | kd3: heh, pretty much. nice when you're on the good side of the equation, sucks on the bad side |
| 18:09.17 | Amarande | think if I ever try pvp servers again I'm going to be tried and true and be either a rogue or a ranged heh |
| 18:09.29 | Amarande | monk and warrior are probably THE two worst classes to try to level on pvp :) |
| 18:09.37 | Amarande | (and I was trying a monk :P) |
| 18:10.01 | Fisker | hey foxlit |
| 18:10.16 | Amarande | Especially without heirlooms. Springsteen's "Murder Incorporated" comes very much to mind LOL |
| 18:10.22 | Unkle | I played on a PVP server at launch. As a deomonology spec warlock. I spent more time running to my corpse than actually playing the game. |
| 18:11.19 | Amarande | "Out on the streets your chances are zero. That 'quipment you got is so outdated, you're messin' with Murder, Incorporated ..." |
| 18:11.41 | TC-Work | That was 'actually playing the game' |
| 18:12.00 | TC-Work | XD |
| 18:13.00 | Amarande | TC-Work: hah, that's like calling having to sit through all the various middleware devs' corporate logos on console after dying in a JRPG "actually playing the game" |
| 18:13.19 | Unkle | TC-Work: It left a very bad taste in my mouth, but it did force me to learn /some/ PVP skills. Enough that I surprise people on Timeless Isle who think I'll be an easy kill. I still die a lot though. |
| 18:13.20 | Amarande | (yes, some of them are stupidly sadistic enough as to make you sit through all the fucking corporate logos EVERY TIME you get a game over and not let you skip a single one :P) |
| 18:14.00 | Amarande | some of which seems reasonable enough from a business standpoint, like the actual game maker's logo showing up every time might be a reasonable thing |
| 18:14.09 | TC-Work | Something something something bad taste in your mouth. |
| 18:14.23 | Amarande | but really, do we need to sit through all the middleware logos, it's not like the average console game player is going to be licencing middleware or even care who it's licenced from :) |
| 18:14.51 | Dagmar | Come now, everyone has to have their unskippable intro sequence |
| 18:14.55 | TC-Work | The only game I ever did on a pvp server was warhammer. |
| 18:15.14 | Dagmar | otherwise how do you know you're playing a multi million-dollar AAA title? |
| 18:15.32 | TC-Work | In general I have no interest, except for BG's and the like. |
| 18:17.19 | Amarande | Dagmar: heh, the issue isn't really initial load, it's that a lot of games are coded so that every time you get a Game Over it goes through the whole unskippable corporate logo sequence AGAIN before you can even reload |
| 18:17.48 | Amarande | I suppose that made some sense back in Nintendo days where resetting the cart was probably a necessity, but on modern consoles? :| |
| 18:20.05 | Dagmar | If I wound up with a game that made me watch all the corporate logos again in the middle of a play session, that would be the last time I'd play it. |
| 18:24.36 | Amarande | Dagmar: sometimes you can skip them with start, sometimes you can't (or you have to skip multiple times, or the load process is so slow that the logos aren't the issue anyway :p) |
| 18:25.20 | Amarande | and sometimes I'm pretty sure it really IS a damned marketing related design decision, and not a conspiracy theory |
| 18:30.47 | Amarande | Dagmar: as in the delay it puts on the player can be used as advertising for "this game will last you XX hours of play time!" :p |
| 18:31.10 | Amarande | I guess we should just be glad that at least abominations like Sonic 2006 are rare |
| 18:31.52 | Amarande | apparently in sonic 2006, even if you never die and you take the most efficient possible route, you must still sit through over 2 hours' total worth of load screens |
| 18:39.20 | Jamash | Often you can fix PC games to skip logo animations |
| 18:39.27 | Jamash | via ini tweaks or such |
| 18:39.34 | zenzelezz | or deleting the video file |
| 18:39.36 | zenzelezz | in some games |
| 18:39.44 | Jamash | or replacing it with a zero-length video file |
| 18:39.59 | Jamash | in bytes or frames, w/e |
| 18:40.13 | zenzelezz | Anarchy Online displays the EULA every time you start it... unless you delete the eula.txt |
| 18:40.21 | Jamash | nice |
| 18:40.56 | Jamash | Planetary Annihilation displays a big "This Is Not Done Yet Click To Agree That It Isn't Done" thing every time I start it but that's because it isn't done and people are stupid |
| 18:41.30 | Jamash | so if anyone complains about how it's broken, the response can simply be "did you read the thing you agreed to?" |
| 18:48.47 | kd3 | jaedong vs taeje right now: twitch.tv/dreamhacksc2 |
| 18:50.08 | zenzelezz | Taeja is a beast so far |
| 18:52.29 | Amarande | I'm glad I"m leveling this spec, ellie shaman looks like it's gonna be a friggin beast in WoD :) |
| 18:53.49 | *** join/#wowuidev elvador` (~elvador@WoWUIDev/WowAce/Elvador) |
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| 18:55.58 | kd3 | good god, 14-0 |
| 18:56.05 | zenzelezz | poor Jaedong |
| 18:56.45 | Amarande | Multistrike + Elemental Overload = lots and lots of zots :) |
| 18:57.04 | Amarande | that's what, double chance now to trigger an extra lightning every time we cast one? |
| 18:57.27 | kd3 | wwwwww |
| 18:57.44 | Amarande | either that or we'll start becoming raid pariahs because RNG causes us to trigger phases too soon too often :) |
| 18:58.38 | Amarande | like ... heh. can't even remember now how many times Putricide went south because a stray dot tick or crit or other limited-controllability effect tripped tear gas early :p |
| 18:59.26 | Amarande | but yeah, there's also the general fact that ellie shaman has basically all the good things about being a mage and none of the crappy ones :) |
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| 19:04.45 | Amarande | I really should go through my characters and start deleting the ones that are classes that I do not like, heh |
| 19:13.32 | foxlit | They partially rewrote the conversation at the Temple of the White Tiger with 5.4.0 |
| 19:13.36 | foxlit | It now makes no sense. |
| 19:13.55 | foxlit | “Hey Xuen, can you let us into the vale that we totally just destroyed? We promise we’ll take care of it!” |
| 19:15.37 | nevcairiel | i wondered if that changed when i leveld through my last char there |
| 19:15.40 | nevcairiel | it seemd mighty odd |
| 19:18.29 | Fisker | hey foxlit |
| 19:18.32 | Fisker | It was well thought out |
| 19:18.42 | Amarande | heh, wouldn't be the first time quest text referred to outdated information :) |
| 19:19.02 | Amarande | apparently plenty of horde outposts (especially southern barrens) still think Garrosh is still in charge |
| 19:19.26 | Amarande | news doesn't travel very fast in azeroth apparently |
| 19:19.28 | nevcairiel | news doesn't get to those places very often |
| 19:19.35 | foxlit | Not the same thing, Amarande. |
| 19:19.36 | nevcairiel | did you ever see a paper? |
| 19:19.49 | foxlit | It’s okay that content is in a time bubble as you progress through it. |
| 19:20.06 | Amarande | yeah, with some games it's even more strict |
| 19:20.13 | foxlit | The thing is, they actually *changed this dialogue* to reflect changes in 5.4.0. |
| 19:20.41 | Amarande | generally this is a good thing though (with LOTRO you'd probably not be able to do much of anything in the low level zones after a while after that, heh ... and in SW:TOR, especially Imperial side you'd technically stop being able to do any 1-50 flashpoints after you did The False Emperor ...) |
| 19:20.50 | nevcairiel | it was actually quite interesting that they redid everything in cataclysm to take that into account |
| 19:20.54 | foxlit | Only now it feels schizophrenic because it keeps flipping between “we destroyed the vale” and “you shouldn’t let them into the vale because they destroyed jade forest". |
| 19:21.10 | Amarande | ah, heh |
| 19:21.16 | Amarande | but hey, destroying the vale is a great thing |
| 19:21.30 | Amarande | it means that S.O.B. that used to be at the end of the golden lotus quest chain is gone for good |
| 19:21.36 | Amarande | seriously, *eff* that boss |
| 19:21.41 | Amarande | (especially as a mage.) |
| 19:21.53 | Amarande | yeah, I'm glad I don't play mage anymore, LOL |
| 19:22.03 | foxlit | and this raises questions like “Hey, which Anduin is this?" |
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| 19:25.58 | mikma | http://www.break.com/video/look-you-can-still-use-that-old-landline-phone-2621998 |
| 19:28.29 | Amarande | btw, is it really true that in 6.0 mages will have absolutely zero ability to self heal in combat at all (except for the one measly potion allowed)? |
| 19:29.22 | Amarande | I'm hearing that the heal components of evocation (might have been with a glyph, probably is, but if so I had the glyph so I had the ability) and friends are being removed altogether |
| 19:29.30 | Amarande | leaving, yeah, nada apart from bandage-and-eat for mages |
| 19:38.20 | Amarande | yeah, I'm REALLY glad I don't play mage anymore, LOL |
| 19:39.03 | nevcairiel | you should really read the patch notes |
| 19:42.43 | Amarande | nevcairiel: yeah, I'm trying to confirm them ... I know Mr_Rabies mentioned it the other night in wowhead chat |
| 19:42.52 | Amarande | and thought of it as a good thing, go figure heh |
| 19:49.08 | Amarande | to me a class with nigh on no survivability apart from nimble reflexes seems like it would be a bad thing ... it basically means perfection or death, which would seem to make things too nerve wracking when you're doing solo questing |
| 19:49.31 | Amarande | OUCH. And Frost Nova is now going to not be available till 75 and require you to give up your AoE bomb damage talent to have :| |
| 19:50.20 | nevcairiel | you should also keep in mind that any changes are preliminary and subject to change |
| 19:50.48 | Amarande | and mirror image not till 90 |
| 19:50.57 | Amarande | yeah, if this goes live, there's going to be lots and lots of angry mages, heh |
| 19:51.13 | nevcairiel | most mages are already 90, why would they care :p |
| 19:53.53 | Stanzilla | I heard a bag of rice fell over in china |
| 19:54.24 | nevcairiel | was it a big one? |
| 19:54.59 | Stanzilla | nope |
| 19:55.02 | nevcairiel | i wonder if thats a german idiom or if other countries actually know whjat you meant |
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| 19:55.09 | Stanzilla | probably german |
| 19:56.48 | Unkle | Stanzilla: The British/American version is "What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?" |
| 19:57.06 | foxlit | eh, I don’t think that maps. |
| 19:57.07 | Stanzilla | neat |
| 19:57.15 | Stanzilla | note quite, yeah |
| 19:57.39 | Stanzilla | would have to be "the price of tea in china changed" or somethign like that |
| 19:58.01 | Amarande | Unkle: sometimes "what does that have to do with the price of eggs" |
| 19:58.05 | Amarande | although that can backfire |
| 19:58.24 | foxlit | stan’s is focusing on something that is presumably a common and unremarkable occurence, while yours is denying the relevance of something. |
| 19:58.28 | Amarande | given this economy ... e.g., "what's up?" "(something first person doesn't really care about)" "what does that have to do with the price of eggs?" "well, that's up too actually" |
| 20:03.21 | Dagmar | Fucking goddamn christ on a motherfucking crutch Andrew does *not* get it |
| 20:03.28 | Dagmar | bleh wrongchan |
| 20:03.53 | kd3 | huh. taeja vs hero in a bit |
| 20:12.15 | Simca | kd3: SC2 fan! \o/ |
| 20:12.27 | kd3 | somewhat |
| 20:20.10 | foxlit | in ~an hour. |
| 20:29.08 | Simca | foxlit: yeah :( |
| 20:29.12 | Simca | that's a long downtime |
| 20:41.37 | Fisker | I once killed a guy in an hour |
| 20:43.17 | Unkle | slowpoke |
| 20:48.04 | TC-Work | Unkle: The guy was on the other side of the world. |
| 20:49.14 | Unkle | Who probably died thusly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ9wNT21c_s |
| 20:52.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Amarande (~Amarande@24-151-100-63.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 20:52.55 | foxlit | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55F6gBAojgU |
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| 21:17.41 | fewyn | Almost time for some #FREEDOM |
| 21:26.54 | Amarande | hmmm, also regarding linux and wow |
| 21:27.03 | Amarande | does the bnet client run on wine as well, or only direct-run wow? |
| 21:27.18 | kd3 | it works -- it has to, hots/hearthstone/beta all require it |
| 21:27.41 | kd3 | (blizz has a developer for the bnet app who solely uses linux at home) |
| 21:30.50 | Amarande | kd3: nice ... now can they please leverage that fact to make linux support 'offish'? :) |
| 21:30.51 | Mr_Rabies | yeah andrew, get it together geez |
| 21:30.54 | Mr_Rabies | welp |
| 21:30.56 | Mr_Rabies | was scrolled up |
| 21:31.25 | Amarande | I see a depressing news article here rumouring that windows 9 will be next year already |
| 21:31.27 | Mr_Rabies | <Dagmar> Fucking goddamn christ on a motherfucking crutch Andrew does *not* get it <Dagmar> bleh wrongchan <--was what i was responding to |
| 21:31.37 | Amarande | it's almost like windows is becoming more and more of a subscription-like thing :( |
| 21:31.54 | Amarande | especially with how Microsoft seems to have fairly aggressive EOL scheduling now as well, i.e., there will never be another calm resting point like XP again :| |
| 21:32.54 | zenzelezz | Oh, Taeja... |
| 21:33.00 | Mr_Rabies | only if you've gotta have latest and greatest |
| 21:33.16 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: that's the point, the EOL schedule is designed to ensure that you *almost* at least have to have latest and greatest |
| 21:33.18 | Mr_Rabies | EOL is still pretty long on the os's, especially compared to apple |
| 21:33.42 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: plus the near abolition of service packs makes system maintenance a real bear |
| 21:34.12 | Mr_Rabies | there probably won't be an OS that gets used for like what, 12 years like XP? |
| 21:34.15 | Amarande | with XP through 7, if you had a licence to run Windows, you had a licence to run any of the service packs |
| 21:34.19 | Mr_Rabies | but the EOL is still pretty decent |
| 21:34.42 | Amarande | with 8, you now instead have "the ability to download a free update to (point release) from the Windows Store" |
| 21:35.07 | Amarande | you most explicitly DO NOT have the ability to install directly to 8.1, you do NOT have a licence for that |
| 21:35.26 | Amarande | nope, if you need to reinstall or refresh or anything, you have to start over with 8.0 and perform the update process all over from the beginning now |
| 21:35.37 | Amarande | unless you shell out an extra $120 or $200 to update your base licence to 8.1 |
| 21:36.11 | Amarande | compare this to Linux, where generally speaking you don't even INSTALL the base version distro (except for the basic packages on your netinst disc), you install the bare basics and then you install straight to the latest version of every package from the repo |
| 21:36.14 | Mr_Rabies | i'm not sure how accurate that is, but i haven't looked it up in great detail |
| 21:36.39 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: it's known that you can not download the 8.1 ISO from MS and install it with an 8.0 licence, instead of having to install 8.0 and get the Store Update to 8.1 |
| 21:36.56 | Amarande | doing this causes Windows to fail to activate claiming that your key isn't valid for this version, apparently |
| 21:37.47 | Amarande | it's apparently becoming a pretty big sticking point in many places, mostly because unless you are a large enough enterprise to have bought a volume licence, you can also not update multiple PCs in your location off of one download |
| 21:38.19 | Amarande | every PC has to update straight from the Store (it's causing a big ruckus in some locations where Internet access is more limited, like people on cellular or satellite access whose caps are too small) |
| 21:38.24 | Mr_Rabies | they're tying it into the windows store because they want people to use it, which i think is a misstep |
| 21:38.48 | Amarande | but yeah, it seems like "Service Packs" have basically become an enterprise perk |
| 21:38.55 | kd3 | whoa almost sniped the medivac |
| 21:39.37 | Mr_Rabies | i think everyone's pretty tired of everyone having an exclusive app store, and forcing people to use it to get updates is just a faster way to get them upset |
| 21:39.58 | Amarande | btw, regarding earlier convo about leveling guildless ... you almost have to if you want to experience any zones in their entirety anymore |
| 21:40.07 | kd3 | wow taeja |
| 21:40.29 | Amarande | even as a guildless character with no looms, there is a tendency to end up outleveling a given zone before you are finished with it |
| 21:40.47 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (as@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 21:41.00 | Amarande | so yeah, pvp servers are not for me, heh |
| 21:41.04 | Amarande | though hey, at least I had the guts to give one a try :) |
| 21:41.29 | Amarande | (and said guts are now pretty much strewn across eastern plaguelands ... LOL) |
| 21:41.56 | Amarande | hrm, so apparently I need to think of a linux distro that isn't debian stable |
| 21:42.06 | Amarande | because debian stable and wine gaming don't mix :p |
| 21:42.58 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: also I've heard, though I am not 100% certain, that you lose the ability to use the Refresh or Reset features in Windows once you patch to 8.1 via the store |
| 21:43.11 | Amarande | (because, again, you do not have a licence to install 8.1, which the refresh/reset consider you to be doing) |
| 21:43.34 | Mr_Rabies | not sure myself, because i'm sticking to windows 7 until they clear a lot of stuff up with 8 |
| 21:43.42 | Mr_Rabies | well actually my desktop still uses vista :v |
| 21:43.53 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: 7 loses mainstream support very soon, actually |
| 21:43.55 | Mr_Rabies | 7 wasn't out yet when i built it and i cbf to reformat |
| 21:43.56 | Amarande | something like next january or so |
| 21:44.04 | Amarande | after that, security updates only, no more hardware support or whatnot |
| 21:44.07 | Mr_Rabies | what does that mean, mainstream support? |
| 21:44.17 | nevcairiel | nothing |
| 21:44.18 | Mr_Rabies | oh, i mean it's gonna be 99% the same drivers |
| 21:44.20 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: "mainstream" means anything that involves feature improvements, IIRC |
| 21:44.27 | Amarande | "extended" means only security updates |
| 21:44.41 | Mr_Rabies | that's fine with me, windows 8 needs feature improvements not windows 7 |
| 21:44.53 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: even something as simple as new hardware support is a "feature improvement" far as I'm aware though |
| 21:44.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-98-66-2-156.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 21:44.58 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 21:45.03 | nevcairiel | 8.1 is just fine, you can just not use the "modern UI" and use it as a desktop OS with all the improvements it brings |
| 21:45.07 | Amarande | welcome to becoming dependent on having installation discs along with every piece of hw! |
| 21:45.23 | Mr_Rabies | other than how much it ties into the windows store, nevcairiel |
| 21:45.34 | nevcairiel | i have not yet once opened the windows store |
| 21:45.39 | nevcairiel | how is it tied into anything |
| 21:45.54 | Mr_Rabies | you will when you need windows 8.2 or whatever, apparently, according to Amarande |
| 21:46.04 | nevcairiel | dont believe anything Amarande says |
| 21:46.08 | nevcairiel | seriously |
| 21:46.34 | Amarande | nevcairiel: they've gone back to the old "point release" system instead of service packs |
| 21:46.49 | Mr_Rabies | isn't update 1 basically a service pack? |
| 21:46.53 | nevcairiel | it is |
| 21:46.54 | Amarande | like, old old old, last time they did anything resembling point releases was 98SE and 95OSR2 |
| 21:47.05 | Amarande | yeah, Update 1 is |
| 21:47.24 | Amarande | but on the other hand, in the olden days we probably would have gotten "8 Service Pack 1" not "8.1" |
| 21:47.45 | Amarande | what used to be SPs are often being made into de jure version updates, which you must use the Store to perform unless you want to buy Windows from scratch again |
| 21:47.47 | nevcairiel | also, you can just download the 8.1 ISO and install it with a generic 8.1 key, and after install put your real 8.0 key in, and it works |
| 21:48.12 | nevcairiel | also, Update 1 is on top of 8.1, not on top of 8 to make 8.1 :p |
| 21:48.33 | Amarande | yeah, it's lame |
| 21:48.41 | Amarande | they should have just had SP1, then what was 8.1U1 would be 8 SP2 etc. |
| 21:48.47 | Amarande | I'm not sure why they didn't stick with that :| |
| 21:48.54 | nevcairiel | why does it matter |
| 21:48.56 | nevcairiel | 8.1 is free |
| 21:49.00 | nevcairiel | its not like you had to buy it |
| 21:49.07 | Amarande | although the whole incrementality of Windows updates is an irritating weakness of the system anyway |
| 21:49.19 | Amarande | as opposed to Linux's "go straight to latest of all packages at install" |
| 21:49.24 | Mr_Rabies | they're trying out new apple-like things and hopefully with their reorganization they'll stop imitating apple |
| 21:49.37 | Amarande | nevcairiel: here's a fun little kicker, you can't even install 8 and then go straight to 8.1 |
| 21:49.47 | nevcairiel | why would I want that |
| 21:49.50 | Amarande | you actually have to install *all* the windows updates on top of 8.0 before 8.1 will install successfully |
| 21:49.53 | nevcairiel | if i want 8.1, i install that straight |
| 21:50.01 | Amarande | otherwise, "something happened" and the installation could not be completed :P |
| 21:50.22 | nevcairiel | who cares if obscure unrealistic scenarios work :p |
| 21:50.41 | Amarande | yeah, nowadays not so bad, quite maddening to folks when 8.1 came out though |
| 21:50.53 | Amarande | because not only did you need the specific update that made 8.1 show up in the store, you actually did need *every* other update |
| 21:50.59 | Amarande | otherwise it would fail to install the 8.1 update |
| 21:51.07 | nevcairiel | so just install the updates |
| 21:51.10 | nevcairiel | i dont see your point |
| 21:51.11 | Amarande | (and it wouldn't even tell you why, it'd just say "SOMETHING HAPPENED") |
| 21:51.15 | nevcairiel | you're making no sense, like always |
| 21:51.31 | Amarande | nevcairiel: uninformative error messages are a legitimate gripe, of course |
| 21:51.46 | nevcairiel | if you really want to, it creates a log file, go read that |
| 21:51.56 | Amarande | also the fact that it's a huge amount of wasted download and reboot cycles, because presumably 8.1 overrides all those updates anyway (otherwise why is it a 3 gig download to itself?) |
| 21:52.30 | Mr_Rabies | hopefully they clean up their missteps with the next iteration of windows |
| 21:52.45 | Mr_Rabies | being like apple in the desktop space is -not- a good thing |
| 21:52.53 | Amarande | keep in mind that it's also a pain in the ass to update a fresh windows install after long - half the updates show up as Failed if you try to install everything at once, and there's almost no indication as to which updates you should not try to install until others are installed |
| 21:52.55 | Mr_Rabies | there's a reason the have such terrible market share in that space |
| 21:53.08 | nevcairiel | like I said, just ignore the "modern" parts of 8.1, and its a perfect desktop OS |
| 21:53.12 | Amarande | Windows just tries to pull all the updates and goes through choke cycles until it manages them |
| 21:53.20 | Amarande | it did this with 7 too, actually |
| 21:53.35 | A-KO | Amarande: That problem happened with this month's patch cycle at work |
| 21:53.36 | A-KO | annoying :/ |
| 21:53.41 | A-KO | half the updates fail until reboot, then they work |
| 21:53.44 | A-KO | because of one update |
| 21:53.50 | A-KO | which we can't trace...or is required.. |
| 21:53.57 | fewyn | LET'S GO USA! |
| 21:54.11 | Amarande | A-KO: yeah, what I wonder is why MS can't just move to a Linux like system where it just goes straight to the latest of everything on install |
| 21:54.18 | Amarande | instead of having to do everything increment by increment |
| 21:55.03 | Amarande | everything does this now, even games thanks to things like steam, origin, and bnet client |
| 21:55.09 | Amarande | why can't MS get with the damned program :p |
| 21:55.31 | A-KO | Amarande: Actually |
| 21:55.34 | A-KO | The Windows Store update does |
| 21:55.42 | A-KO | if you do the update from 8 -> 8.1, it will install everything it needs |
| 21:55.45 | A-KO | and will be 100% up to date |
| 21:55.52 | A-KO | At least as far as May, I just did it last month |
| 21:55.58 | Amarande | A-KO: which doesn't explain why it needs every 8.0 update to be present before 8.1 can succeed |
| 21:56.00 | A-KO | all updates and all required patches were patched automatically |
| 21:56.02 | Amarande | (which it does) |
| 21:56.51 | A-KO | My parents' machine was updated as of April for Win8. I installed the 8.1 update, which also installed the May 8.1 updates. |
| 21:56.52 | nevcairiel | the classic system update is just complicated, because it needs to cover a gazillion of combinations, and also updates that interact with each other. Linux is just different packages, so you can update them independently - in Windows the core functions are all connected |
| 21:56.53 | A-KO | So yeah... |
| 21:57.07 | A-KO | nevcairiel: They have gone through great lengths to clean that up |
| 21:57.12 | Amarande | yeah, I often do get that feeling Windows tries to integrate too much into the core |
| 21:57.13 | nevcairiel | of course |
| 21:57.13 | A-KO | 7 and 8 are pretty solid on that regard now. |
| 21:57.22 | nevcairiel | but the basics remain |
| 21:57.36 | nevcairiel | can't upgrade dll1 to $latest without also updating dll2 and dll3 which may be connected |
| 21:57.42 | Amarande | I'm guessing it's for better performance on lower end gear? |
| 21:57.46 | kd3 | here we go, USA v GHA. let's hope the streak doesn't continue |
| 21:57.57 | kd3 | at the same time TaeJa/HerO is getting crazy |
| 21:58.38 | Amarande | kd3: let's face it, the USA is practically amateur night when it comes to soccer |
| 21:58.43 | Amarande | at least compared to most of the rest of the world |
| 21:58.56 | nevcairiel | would be fun if they make it ouf of the group phase |
| 21:59.03 | Amarande | it's like trying to casual pvp in wow, heh |
| 21:59.20 | Amarande | you end up meat at the hands of the groups who eat, sleep, drink, and breathe the competition |
| 21:59.40 | kd3 | and taeja's now 16-0 holy crap |
| 21:59.42 | A-KO | Microsoft's patching environment has been a bit of a mess recently. I'm hoping in time they fix these issues. The whole Update 1 mess is just that, a mess...They should have just put a hard cut off for Update 1, instead until this month they've had a kind of moonlight period for 8.1 users... |
| 21:59.42 | Amarande | which I would hope our *team* does, but our country as a whole doesn't :P |
| 21:59.52 | g0urra | that looks painful http://puu.sh/9wEOs/73cca38238.jpg |
| 21:59.55 | A-KO | WSUS did get upgraded in 2012R2.... |
| 22:00.00 | A-KO | I haven't messed with it, though. |
| 22:00.16 | A-KO | I'm on a patch management mailing list where the MS Engineers post occasionally |
| 22:01.07 | Amarande | g0urra: heh, this virtual land has a seriously screwed up justice system :) |
| 22:01.18 | nevcairiel | the only annoying problem I had was with a UEFI boot loader update for server 2012, for some reason it always failed to install itself, presumably due to secure boot, i eventually just disabled the damn update |
| 22:01.21 | kd3 | hooooly shit |
| 22:01.35 | Amarande | g0urra: if a quick scan like that can show he's been acquitted by tampered evidence ... why isn't he in jail for evidence tampering :) |
| 22:01.43 | nevcairiel | kd3: your team is fast |
| 22:01.46 | A-KO | nevcairiel: that's odd. But I haven't deployed 2012, so....can't say I have experience with it. |
| 22:01.59 | A-KO | nevcairiel: the default in 8 with TPM/secure boot is to allow firmware/loader updates to go through quietly |
| 22:02.03 | Amarande | (I'm guessing this is Watch_Dogs?) |
| 22:02.14 | nevcairiel | A-KO: it didnt happen with 2012r2 which i got later, but maybe the update just didnt apply, what do i know |
| 22:02.24 | g0urra | yes Amarande |
| 22:03.16 | A-KO | 2012 had...issues....actually, it had surprisingly stupid issues |
| 22:03.25 | A-KO | Thank fucking god MS is doing regular non-security hotfixes now as part of WU |
| 22:03.58 | Amarande | A-KO: I'm beginning to wonder if Windows is really the best general purpose OS anymore (or if it ever really was, but meh) |
| 22:04.25 | A-KO | Amarande: I still have faith in Microsoft's visions, but I do feel like they need to reign in their support team.....or rather, the group that writes patches for the OS. |
| 22:04.26 | Amarande | though OTOH, I actually kind of have a sad feeling I know why Linux has so much trouble getting traction on the desktop |
| 22:04.34 | A-KO | which is an entirely different group than the OS development folks |
| 22:04.39 | Amarande | it's an investment matter |
| 22:04.42 | Amarande | see, here's the thing |
| 22:04.58 | Amarande | windows appeals to the mainstream (or people who must have mainstream folks use the system). linux appeals to the geek. |
| 22:04.58 | A-KO | Hotfixes and security updates are a completely different group, likely in India |
| 22:05.02 | Amarande | there's the rub |
| 22:05.09 | A-KO | Windows appeals strongly to me (geek) :P |
| 22:05.24 | Amarande | the systems most suitable in terms of price/capability balance for linux use, are the kind that you find at best buy that are sold basically entirely to mainstream users |
| 22:05.27 | A-KO | Only because I know what it is capable of and understand I don't want to build shit like Kerberos by fucking hand. |
| 22:05.36 | Amarande | us geeks on the other hand tend to build high end uber machines |
| 22:05.55 | Amarande | but there's the rub: once you've BUILT a high end machine, it's hard to justify the investment WITHOUT running windows, because you basically need to game in order to justify the investment :S |
| 22:06.13 | A-KO | Linux isn't all roses, though. Distros and the kernel have issues working on modern systems....and they occasionally have fights about it publicly. |
| 22:06.18 | A-KO | The scheduler system has been overhauled a few times |
| 22:06.20 | A-KO | now they're doing init |
| 22:06.23 | A-KO | still fighting over that |
| 22:06.26 | A-KO | it's needed, it's required |
| 22:06.27 | Amarande | and wine is still far from perfect, especially given that it updates so rapidly that it's hard for distros to not get dated |
| 22:06.30 | A-KO | but everyone is crying about losing sysvinit |
| 22:06.59 | Amarande | A-KO: if the new init replacement is sufficiently different, that could be for a reason |
| 22:07.10 | Amarande | everyone who has custom init scripts has to completely refactor |
| 22:07.18 | A-KO | Amarande: oh it's really different, but it's arguably better as far as computer startup performance is concerned, and service management. |
| 22:07.34 | A-KO | like, TECHNICALLY I feel it's better, and the right way to go, and iron out the kinks as they move along |
| 22:07.42 | Amarande | like, is it still even compatible with the old /etc/init.d paradigm? |
| 22:08.03 | kd3 | if you have old initscripts, you can use them in the new systems |
| 22:08.27 | Amarande | though part of it seems to be political |
| 22:08.33 | A-KO | The problem with init scripts is it's time-based, and not event-based. FIFO kinda deal, with weird sleep and wait states here or there. |
| 22:08.55 | Amarande | possibly with some justification ... I'm not sure it's really a good thing for any one entity (e.g. Red Hat, Canonical, etc.) to get enough leverage that their distro starts becoming the One True Linux |
| 22:09.01 | A-KO | If you depend on a service being started, there's no way to know whether the service is started w/o checking the PID or other system workarounds. The init system shoudl manage this stuff. |
| 22:09.19 | A-KO | If I say "This service depends on that service", the init system should control all aspects of the launching of those services to ensure they all start happily |
| 22:09.22 | Amarande | though otoh I suppose there are some benefits to a one true linux, such as reduced kernel fragmentation |
| 22:09.27 | A-KO | and not stupid crap like, "sleep 10" lol |
| 22:09.45 | Amarande | (e.g., FreeBSD third party drivers from folks like nvidia only need to care about 1 or 2 kernel versions tops, while the linux drivers have to cope with tons of different kernels) |
| 22:10.04 | Amarande | A-KO: heh, the WoW UI maven's lament, pretty much :) |
| 22:10.12 | A-KO | lol |
| 22:10.13 | Amarande | I'm actually pretty sure it's why MSBT kept having font problems |
| 22:10.35 | Amarande | pretty sure it's because it kept loading in before fonter, meaning the font files it needed for the fonts I had chosen before were not available and it fell back to defaults |
| 22:10.47 | Amarande | since I switched to DorisPP for msbt too, it's been just ducky |
| 22:10.58 | A-KO | yeah, init had those same problems...... |
| 22:11.05 | A-KO | which is just sad in a god damn OS startup IMO |
| 22:11.06 | A-KO | lol |
| 22:11.14 | A-KO | WoW, okay, acceptable, if annoying.... |
| 22:11.39 | A-KO | The sad part is |
| 22:11.56 | Amarande | (it was not a config retention issue, because MSBT would always gladly note in the config window that the font selections were there) |
| 22:12.07 | A-KO | Microsoft switched to a much better system almost 2 decades ago and have improved upon it since. Asynchronous startup of services, etc. |
| 22:12.15 | A-KO | Not sure why it took Linux this long |
| 22:12.27 | kd3 | because inertia and greybeards are annoying |
| 22:12.34 | Amarande | A-KO: probably partially because of paradigms, as well |
| 22:12.35 | kd3 | and (zomg it's a lennart project!) |
| 22:12.43 | A-KO | Most people just brute forced the idea--i.e. faster components = faster startup |
| 22:12.51 | Amarande | Linux tends to be fairly lean mean when it comes to service daemons, unless you install too many things |
| 22:12.53 | A-KO | and that's just not how it has to be in modern computing...it can be even faster.. |
| 22:12.55 | Amarande | ever looked in services.msc? |
| 22:13.02 | Amarande | there's like 40 billion things MS loads at the OS services level |
| 22:13.11 | Amarande | it basically HAD to focus on service startup much more than Linux, I'm sure |
| 22:13.24 | Amarande | (that and quite a lot of the services Linux DOES load actually ARE independent of one another, such as network daemons for the most part) |
| 22:13.25 | zenzelezz | holy fuck Taeja |
| 22:13.29 | kd3 | ^ |
| 22:13.48 | A-KO | Microsoft has done a lot of service improvements in 8/8.1, even stuff like dynamic start/stop now |
| 22:13.49 | A-KO | which is nice |
| 22:14.06 | Amarande | I'm not sure why Windows needs so many services |
| 22:14.21 | Amarande | I'm *guessing* Linux must have some things at the kernel module level that Windows loads at the Service level instead? |
| 22:14.28 | A-KO | very likely |
| 22:14.31 | A-KO | but I've never looked |
| 22:14.39 | Amarande | it would be logical, given also that Windows has user accounts that are higher privileged than even a system administrator |
| 22:14.44 | A-KO | It's hard to do a compare because of fundamental paradigm differences |
| 22:14.50 | Unkle | because the msft way of thinking is "quit packaging everything you depend on in a .dll file, and let us bake the stuff into a service that you call" |
| 22:14.54 | Amarande | which is also something that always grates on me about Windows, heh |
| 22:14.58 | A-KO | Unkle: ^ |
| 22:14.59 | Amarande | on Linux, the power of root is actually absolute |
| 22:15.13 | Amarande | on Windows, there are several things loaded by the system on a normal day to day basis that YOU CANNOT TOUCH |
| 22:15.27 | Amarande | because the computer literally gives itself higher privileges than you are able to command without hacking your own machine |
| 22:15.38 | Amarande | in other words, on Linux, the computer by definition listens to you |
| 22:15.46 | Amarande | on Windows, to a large degree, *you* do what you are told by the *computer* |
| 22:15.57 | A-KO | Amarande: One of the nice things about 8 is that the task manager/startup UI now gives you a rating impact on system performance by service/application startups |
| 22:16.00 | A-KO | which is REALLY helpful |
| 22:16.09 | A-KO | You can cull expensive services/apps easily, etc. |
| 22:16.13 | A-KO | right in the UI |
| 22:16.21 | Amarande | hung processes are a particularly notable aspect of that |
| 22:16.38 | Amarande | on linux, nothing withstands, worst case, having to become root and issue a SIGKILL |
| 22:17.07 | Amarande | on windows, you can have to fully reboot to fix a hung process because it might have System or Local System or similar ownership, and you are SUBORDINATE to it |
| 22:17.22 | A-KO | indeed. Those are fewer and far in between, though. |
| 22:17.23 | Amarande | i.e., you think your puny admin account can kill that process? oh sorry, no access for you |
| 22:17.40 | Amarande | the real fun thing is that sometimes these processes don't even exit properly during the reboot process, forcing you to take an improper shutdown into the bargain |
| 22:17.45 | kd3 | wow: http://mashable.com/2014/06/16/thunderstorm-twin-tornadoes-outbreak |
| 22:18.13 | Amarande | A-KO: what I wonder is why Windows should have that paradigm to even begin with |
| 22:18.35 | A-KO | Amarande: I dunno, it hasn't been much of a problem for me over the years... |
| 22:18.37 | Amarande | mind you, the idea of things being managed by, perhaps, a level not available to a local user account might be important in corporate security scenarios |
| 22:18.47 | Amarande | but a level not available to humans at all, that's just *headshake* |
| 22:19.30 | Amarande | for me mostly it gets grating when it happens and there's something I want to do that involves unsticking the hung process |
| 22:19.31 | Amarande | *but* |
| 22:19.38 | Amarande | I'm also doing something else that I do not want to interrupt now or for a while |
| 22:19.43 | A-KO | Amarande: I do patiently await when Linux becomes more of a direct target overall. And it is, nobody ever mentions the OS' used in big database compromises and things like that (yet all security holes on a windows box are always Windows' fault, even if it's not the OS' fault) |
| 22:19.52 | *** join/#wowuidev zz_Cidan (~cidan@2605:e000:9fc0:4d:30a7:ac73:63:4504) |
| 22:19.53 | Amarande | which means I'm stuck because in order to do A I need to reboot, in order to continue doing B I can't reboot |
| 22:20.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Cidan (~cidan@conspiracy/developer/Cidan) |
| 22:20.35 | Amarande | A-KO: as a rule on FOSS machines though, it's not so much the OS itself that's targeted as a specific package that tends to be common across many such systems |
| 22:20.52 | Amarande | like Heartbleed, it wasn't any particular OS, it was anything that used that version of OpenSSL |
| 22:21.20 | A-KO | Amarande: On Windows, though, a vast majority of attacks are Java/Flash/Reader attacks. |
| 22:21.22 | A-KO | not the OS itself :P |
| 22:21.30 | Amarande | Microsoft got to get a PR boost out of it of course, but it's more because "not-Windows" was affected than that any specific OS was |
| 22:21.32 | g0urra | kd3: ouch |
| 22:22.00 | A-KO | Microsoft has done TLS in the most complete fashion IMO. Hopefully this dedicated OpenSSL stuff from the linux foundation will bring OpenSSL to the modern times |
| 22:22.06 | A-KO | and simplify certificate management |
| 22:22.08 | Unkle | There's a reason that I say "Installing Adobe Attack Vector X" when I install their products... |
| 22:22.09 | A-KO | and implementation |
| 22:22.30 | Amarande | Yeah, I've stopped using Reader a long time ago |
| 22:22.31 | A-KO | TLS is horribly implemented by developers across the board |
| 22:22.40 | Amarande | and I can't remember the last time I've installed Java |
| 22:22.42 | A-KO | Adobe actually cleaned their shit up with Reader XI |
| 22:22.48 | A-KO | fully rebuilt with ASLR, DEP, etc. |
| 22:22.53 | Amarande | Flash I'm looking forward to the day I can ditch too |
| 22:22.56 | A-KO | There are still bugs here or there |
| 22:22.57 | A-KO | but fucking Java |
| 22:22.58 | zenzelezz | A-KO: linux people are messing with OpenSSL too? I thought the BSD guys were all over it |
| 22:23.01 | A-KO | Java is a god damn landmine |
| 22:23.10 | Amarande | how's youtube sans flash nowadays? did they finally get the monetised videos on board with HTML5 like I've heard, or do they still need flash? |
| 22:23.12 | A-KO | zenzelezz: The Linux Foundation has dedicated money and full time devs to OpenSSL |
| 22:23.44 | Amarande | A-KO: part of it too is that TLS doesn't seem to know its priorities, or so it feels like it at times |
| 22:23.53 | Amarande | A-KO: like the whole dreamhost email facepalmer |
| 22:24.05 | Unkle | Still need a lot of Flash for YouTube. Sadly. |
| 22:24.33 | Amarande | See, I grew up with the understanding, that the first and foremost priority of SSL, was that it encrypted your passwords and financials and such so that they could not be sniffed en route |
| 22:24.36 | A-KO | Amarande: Well, it's a complicated protocol really. And there are tons of versions of OpenSSL out there. The maintainers have a good idea, though, and that's to deprecate older versoins and have a more solid dev cycle. |
| 22:24.39 | A-KO | Which will REALLY help. |
| 22:24.57 | Amarande | Nowadays, it seems that is actually considered a SECONDARY purpose of TLS, and the PRIMARY purpose is site identity authentication |
| 22:25.07 | A-KO | TLS and X.509 are massive pains in the ass. Secure key storage, key management, certificate management, CRLs, etc. |
| 22:25.17 | Amarande | This resulted in happy fun with Dreamhost, and I would be very surprised if they were the only host to have the issue |
| 22:25.28 | A-KO | well, the encryption is a second component, and quite frankly, the easiest. |
| 22:25.42 | A-KO | out of all the things having to do with TLS |
| 22:25.43 | Amarande | The basic issue being this: hosted email is stored on a server that's shared across several different customer domains |
| 22:25.51 | Mr_Rabies | <Amarande> how's youtube sans flash nowadays? did they finally get the monetised videos on board with HTML5 like I've heard, or do they still need flash? |
| 22:25.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Krapsy (~Kraps@unaffiliated/kraps) |
| 22:25.53 | A-KO | Diffie Hellman and Encryption are the easiest parts :P |
| 22:25.59 | Mr_Rabies | i literally can't get mine to go back into using flash on chrome anymore |
| 22:26.04 | Mr_Rabies | it just uses html5 |
| 22:26.06 | A-KO | Amarande: yes. That's an issue. But that's common. |
| 22:26.08 | Amarande | as a result, the server has just one certificate (your whole email address is used as the username and the dreamhost email server name itself is considered the email server name) |
| 22:26.22 | Mr_Rabies | i hate how shitty linking the url is on their html5 player |
| 22:26.26 | Amarande | as a result, software throws a shit fit when you try to use TLS email, because it says FRAUD! FRAUD! NOT WHAT IT SAYS IT IS! |
| 22:26.37 | Amarande | A-KO: and that's what I mean about priorities |
| 22:26.54 | A-KO | Amarande: Technically, that's dreamhost's fault. Certificates should not be used at the higher part of the stack to validate from/to addresses. |
| 22:26.54 | Amarande | it would rather you do your email &c. in the fucking clear than do it encrypted to a host it thinks is not the right one |
| 22:27.01 | A-KO | Your MX records for your domain should be whatever.dreamhost.com |
| 22:27.03 | A-KO | and TLS should validate |
| 22:27.11 | Amarande | A-KO: I'm talking about the TLS used at client level |
| 22:27.16 | Amarande | when you're connecting via IMAP |
| 22:27.19 | A-KO | Yes |
| 22:27.29 | A-KO | They should tell you to point your imap to whatever.dreamhost.com |
| 22:27.33 | A-KO | NOT whatever.yourdomain.com :P |
| 22:27.51 | Amarande | A-KO: and it seems like this will only get worse, because it seems like the only way to not have it happen is going to turn out to be to have a separate IP address for each name the server needs to attest |
| 22:27.58 | Amarande | and with IPv4 starvation, that's just not going to happen |
| 22:29.16 | A-KO | I'm not sure what the issue is. When you use a 3rd party mail server, you should never have mx records on yourdomain.com unless you host the mail environment yourself. Your MX records should point to like "mail1.dreamhost.com", and then mail1.dreamhost.com is signed and validated. The MUA and MTA should validate the cert against the MX record (mail1.dreamhost.com), and attempt to send the |
| 22:29.16 | A-KO | mail. It's up to Dreamhost's SMTP configuration to determine whether to accept mail for "yourdomain.com". |
| 22:29.30 | A-KO | Google does this properly |
| 22:29.32 | A-KO | it works fine |
| 22:29.32 | A-KO | :P |
| 22:29.35 | Amarande | hell, IPv4 starvation is causing issues for webhosting itself thanks to the DNSChanger incident |
| 22:29.51 | A-KO | It's hard for me to be sad about ipv4 exhaustion... |
| 22:29.58 | A-KO | A-KO is connecting from *@2601:a:f00:465:e161:da50:5878:9aff |
| 22:30.08 | Amarande | ... there are apparently some European web hosts that you can't access from some US ISPs because of residual protective blocks from DNSChanger |
| 22:30.25 | A-KO | I have long lamented this geolocation nonsense with IP space |
| 22:30.27 | A-KO | fucking people |
| 22:31.21 | Amarande | Poor Hostinger in particular ... they're especially screwed because apparently several of the former DNSChanger command and control IPs were bought by them - and were used for their free hosting block |
| 22:31.30 | A-KO | lol |
| 22:31.59 | Amarande | A-KO: the problem is that the US ISPs in question won't listen to anyone but an authorised rep of the company owning the IPs in question |
| 22:32.25 | Amarande | free users at Hostinger aren't allowed to put in support tickets, so the issues are basically never heard at an official IT level by Hostinger |
| 22:32.38 | Amarande | paid users at Hostinger do not, apparently, end up on the affected IP addresses, so they never have to put in a ticket |
| 22:33.36 | Amarande | mind you, why it should be the ISP's job to implement such blocks, I'm not sure ... it should be up to the user not to get infected with malware, right? :) |
| 22:34.27 | Dagmar | Actually, it's simpller at this point to just embarass the companies running these poorly maintained blacklists, and damage their percieved value. |
| 22:35.01 | Amarande | although I suppose sadly given the time of DNS Changer someone might claim it was a save-the-world issue :( |
| 22:35.02 | Dagmar | OpenDNS blocks unic0rn under the category of "malware". |
| 22:35.25 | Dagmar | Problem being, unic0rn doesn't have any malware--it's a search engine for vulnerabilites |
| 22:35.39 | Dagmar | ...which for some reason, companies who make money off vulnerabilities have a problem with. |
| 22:35.40 | Amarande | with something as far ranging in potential consequences as a mass redirection of DNS, I'm guessing it could actually have been the end for the USA, and for that not to have been a skyfalling thing either? |
| 22:36.08 | Amarande | given the timing and the fact that the banks were already in a badly unstable tailspin as it was? |
| 22:36.34 | Dagmar | Amarande: No, although for once federal authorities weren't interested in turning the whole C&C off right away, because it would have meant effectively cutting off four million people's Internet. |
| 22:36.46 | Amarande | (scenario: on top of the banks already being tottering, you get a mass spate of fraud ... banks are forced to deliver on anti fraud guarantees losing even more money and pushing them into failure ... end of the USA altogether because the banking system could have been pushed into nonrecoverability, I suppose) |
| 22:37.08 | Dagmar | They spent several months notifying ISPs about which of their customers were affected and getting them to change their DNS settings back |
| 22:37.13 | Amarande | and if the US banking system fails, I'm guessing that's it for the modern world as a whole, much like the Western Roman Empire basically took near the whole of Europe with it in 476 |
| 22:37.26 | Dagmar | ...otherwise, late night tech support employees have a lot of guns and might want to use them |
| 22:37.40 | Amarande | Beijing basically then becomes the new Constantinople and I'm not sure that ends well for anyone :P |
| 22:38.11 | Amarande | though heh, that may well be inevitable at this point anyway |
| 22:38.41 | Amarande | there are eerie parallels between some theories of the Decline and Fall and the present state of the USA, and the world economy kinda does place the USA in the shoes of Rome and China in those of the Eastern Empire |
| 22:39.43 | Amarande | Dagmar: heh, wasn't part of the issue of DNSChanger that it resisted attempts to change the servers back? |
| 22:40.14 | Unkle | ROFL - http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2014/06/13/aaron-pauls-voice-trolls-xbox-users/ |
| 22:40.14 | Amarande | Mind you, I suppose there were ways for an infected user to self-override though I'm not sure how well they would work for most normal folks |
| 22:40.47 | Amarande | if you had a robust enough router, you could probably just have set any accesses to the C&C servers to redirect to trustworthy DNS servers instead |
| 22:41.39 | Amarande | essentially, double-double-crossing the infected PC :) |
| 22:42.31 | Amarande | (most proper unix/linux firewalls let you take any attempt to connect to A.B.C.D and have it transparently go to W.X.Y.Z instead right?) |
| 22:45.13 | Gnarfoz | rof |
| 22:46.06 | Amarande | mind you, if you're using linux or unix at all to begin with I suppose you probably didn't catch DNSChanger |
| 22:46.12 | Amarande | I never did, and I used Windows a lot of the time as well :) |
| 22:47.01 | Mr_Rabies | mannnn |
| 22:47.11 | Mr_Rabies | the call to arms almost ever activates for 5 mans anymroe |
| 22:47.16 | Mr_Rabies | guess that's a good thing |
| 22:47.20 | Mr_Rabies | but i miss my loot bags :< |
| 22:47.39 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: that's a good thing |
| 22:47.57 | Mr_Rabies | it seems to activate when one or more queues are above 10 mins |
| 22:48.07 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: tbh, I've never been a big fan of call to arms in general though ... I always thought it would have been better to address the reasons why queues were lopsided than to bribe people to queue |
| 22:48.47 | Amarande | for instance, in the case of Cataclysm where it started, the issue was that eventually there was just nothing much to spend justice or even valor ON once you had all the heirlooms and were current on gear, unless you were an enchanter and bought stuff to break down for purple crystals |
| 22:49.12 | Amarande | and I always thought, it would have been better if they had simply made there be more worthwhile things to spend JP or VP on that don't become irrelevant ultimately |
| 22:49.22 | Amarande | like how in Wrath you could buy uncut epic gems for justice |
| 22:49.48 | Amarande | there was always a demand for epic gems, that could have easily balanced things more (and correspondingly, I don't remember queues being as bad in late Wrath as they were in late Cata) |
| 22:52.02 | Amarande | they could have done the same in MoP ... actually we never got epic gems at all in Mists apparently |
| 22:52.23 | Amarande | I'm guessing because of complaints from jewelcrafters? |
| 22:53.19 | Amarande | (because in previous expansions, JC basically lost its profession perk almost altogether once epic gems became a thing?) |
| 22:53.21 | Neffi | ~framexml |
| 22:53.21 | purl | Blizzard's UI for WoW. Extract it yourself by following intructions on http://wowpedia.org/Viewing_Blizzard's_interface_code ; or view it online at http://github.com/tekkub/wow-ui-source , http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser or http://www.townlong-yak.com/framexml |
| 22:59.05 | Amarande | btw, what's the best linux distro to be using these days if one has a desire to keep wine up to date for wow's sake? |
| 23:10.41 | A-KO | I like Arch a lot, but a lot of people knock it because it wasn't until the past 1-2 years it got signed packages :P |
| 23:10.55 | A-KO | but I do like Arch as I feel they do a lot more to support the "community" aspect of the distro |
| 23:11.08 | A-KO | Two tiers of community repos, even. |
| 23:11.36 | A-KO | There's the Community Repo and AUR (Arch User Repo)--the latter of which is kind of an experimental whatever, then really well-maintained packages get tossed into the community repo. The AUR is not included by default. |
| 23:11.39 | Amarande | I tend to like Debian Stable a lot in general, but it's going to suck for Wine |
| 23:11.40 | Amarande | I'm suspecting even the libraries that come with it are not good enough to build current wine, either |
| 23:11.54 | A-KO | See, I really like bleeding edge type stuff |
| 23:12.00 | Amarande | since I've tried in the past pulling the wine source package from sid and then building it against the libraries from stable |
| 23:12.22 | Amarande | and what usually happens is that wine builds and works and all, but it then proceeds to not run desired games well like it had hoped |
| 23:12.33 | karl_w_w | https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4379974794022&set=p.4379974794022&type=1 I love it :P |
| 23:12.51 | Amarande | either there's been big regressions vs 1.4 since 1.5 started, or else it has issues with the various X support libraries being oldish |
| 23:13.05 | Amarande | issues that wouldn't affect compilation but show up at runtime perhaps |
| 23:15.08 | Amarande | mind you, that was also lotro not wow I was trying to install at the time, though |
| 23:15.20 | Amarande | blizzard games seem to basically be the gold standard wine is measured on :) |
| 23:26.42 | relaxok | http://pastebin.com/vqdubXu1 |
| 23:27.05 | relaxok | damn line 38 won't parse.. i wonder if that means the UIPARENT_MANAGED_FRAME_POSITIONS stuff failed somehow |
| 23:27.27 | relaxok | 'attempt to call a nil value' |
| 23:29.42 | karl_w_w | jleclanche, well now I know why Amaz is so positive all the time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HubLECpQ7Lo |
| 23:40.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|work (cc32711d@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 23:40.09 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn|work] by ChanServ |
| 23:43.29 | kd3 | shit! |
| 23:44.18 | Esamynn|work | ~fishslap kd3 |
| 23:44.19 | purl | ACTION slaps kd3 up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 23:47.27 | kd3 | YES! |
| 23:47.50 | nevcairiel | lucky |
| 23:48.24 | Esamynn|work | O_o |
| 23:48.42 | kd3 | we're watching the USA - Ghana match |
| 23:50.02 | nevcairiel | now hope they dont pull the same stunt |
| 23:51.06 | Esamynn|work | I see |
| 23:54.27 | kd3 | I knew the espn coverage was going to be biased, but this is ridiculous |
| 23:56.43 | karl_w_w | is ghana the worst/luckiest/most cheaty team on earth? |
| 23:57.25 | nevcairiel | ghana lost, so no point in insulting them too much :p |
| 23:58.06 | karl_w_w | is usa the greatest team to ever grace a football pitch because they beat ghana? :P |
| 23:58.30 | nevcairiel | i still think it would be fun to see them pass out of the group phase |
| 23:58.45 | nevcairiel | has that even happened before? :P |
| 23:59.05 | Mr_Rabies | it's cutting to soldiers in afghanistan cheering karl_w_w |
| 23:59.06 | Mr_Rabies | so |
| 23:59.07 | kd3 | ya, ghana knocked us out in 2006 from the round of 16 |
