IRC log for #wowuidev on 20140207

`00:24.13`	`*** join/#wowuidev Bruners (lasseb@gateway/shell/tihlde/x-zabmcuiavjccbzmr)`
`00:36.33`	`*** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (~Cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel)`
`00:44.48`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO^^ (~A-KO@unaffiliated/a-ko)`
`01:08.57`	`Neffi`	`So have you succeeded in h4x0ring the game Semlar`
`01:09.18`	`Semlar`	`yes`
`01:09.26`	`Neffi`	`good to hear`
`01:09.30`	`Neffi`	`~semlarcookie`
`01:20.46`	`*** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Thunderbi@c-98-212-84-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net)`
`01:26.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`01:33.42`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hazal (~Mikkel@0x5e910d43.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`01:35.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-74-226-99-84.mem.bellsouth.net)`
`01:35.10`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ`
`01:39.48`	`Esamynn\|work`	`just remember Semlar, TSquared feeds on the tears of AddOn authors`
`01:40.00`	`Esamynn\|work`	`he's been hungry lately, so he'll take any excuse... ;)`
`01:40.17`	`Semlar`	`break all the addons?`
`01:42.12`	`Arrowmaster`	`lol`
`01:43.21`	`*** join/#wowuidev Ressy (~Ressy@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Ressy)`
`01:47.39`	`znf`	`Semlar, break all the nameplates!`
`01:47.47`	`Primer`	`or better yet, fix them!`
`01:47.48`	`Semlar`	`i'm on it`
`01:47.55`	`Semlar`	`make up your mind!`
`01:56.41`	`Semlar`	`can you really not create a comparison function for table sort in the restricted environment`
`02:02.50`	`TC-Work`	`anyone know the difference between 'yum list foo' and 'yum list foo\' ?`
`02:03.10`	`Semlar`	`regex?`
`02:03.21`	`TC-Work`	`but it still works as a wildcard`
`02:03.50`	`TC-Work`	`and it has different returns`
`02:03.59`	`Semlar`	`is it a regex pattern`
`02:04.17`	`Dagmar`	`Probably being treated like one`
`02:04.25`	`Dagmar`	`Put the bloody thing in doublequotes`
`02:04.49`	`Dagmar`	`yum list foo\*` keeps bash from subjecting it to shell expansion but it looks bizarre
`02:06.00`	`Dagmar`	Anyway, use `yum search`. Less hassle
`02:07.26`	`Primer`	`Or stop using an RPM based distro altogether`
`02:07.38`	`znf`	`ha, was wondering why a certain build system I was using was building binaries for i486...`
`02:07.53`	`Dagmar`	`That would be an option if you could get an Ubuntu support licence that involved immunity to Poetteringitis`
`02:08.26`	`Primer`	`We live dangerously. Our support is done via IRC`
`02:08.33`	`Dagmar`	`Seriously. Swapping to the initrd in order to replace init and he doesn't see this as a clear sign they have fucked up? It's just sad.`
`02:08.57`	`Primer`	`hrmm?`
`02:09.09`	`Primer`	`Pretty sure every distro nowadays boots from an initrd`
`02:09.32`	`Primer`	`I'm wondering what you mean though`
`02:09.44`	`Primer`	`I have a feeling I'm not thinking what you're saying`
`02:10.09`	`Dagmar`	`No, I mean when the init binary is upgraded`
`02:10.35`	`Dagmar`	`If you just get rid of it it keeps one fd open usually, but it's simple enough to make that go away and have the new one completely take over`
`02:10.51`	`Dagmar`	`...unless you've been a fucking idiot and have wildly expanded the scope and function of what was formerly a very simple binary.`
`02:11.00`	`Dagmar`	`THEN it becomes a damn pain in the ass`
`02:11.20`	`Primer`	`In other words, you don't really get the new init until you reboot?`
`02:11.23`	`Esamynn\|work`	`still isn't following`
`02:11.28`	`Primer`	`unless you pivot root to an initrd?`
`02:11.32`	`Primer`	`and back?`
`02:11.39`	`Dagmar`	`I'll find the article. I was shocked.`
`02:12.19`	`Esamynn\|work`	`but I'm with Primer, just stop using RPM based distros`
`02:12.25`	`Esamynn\|work`	`apt is soo much better`
`02:12.35`	`Dagmar`	`https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/LjkLwkeDiLc`
`02:12.39`	`Primer`	`I had to give up on Fedora for my work desktop a while back`
`02:12.41`	`Dagmar`	`Note the bug report this is attached to`
`02:12.45`	`Primer`	`shit just didn't work`
`02:12.53`	`Primer`	`I felt like a perpetual beta tester`
`02:12.54`	`Dagmar`	`It actually keeps the system from unmounting the filesystems properly when you've fucked this thing up`
`02:13.10`	`Primer`	`Thing is, I understand that someone has to be first`
`02:13.15`	`Dagmar`	`Hence some ubuntu users were experiencing the exciting world of watching fsck trigger for entertainment value`
`02:13.25`	`Primer`	`I remember upgrading from libc to glibc (yes, I've been using Linux that long)`
`02:13.31`	`Dagmar`	`Primer: Same here.`
`02:13.46`	`Primer`	`I remember the big debacle that was gcc 2.96`
`02:13.54`	`Dagmar`	`Lennart just does not get one of the fundamentals of Unix. i.e., _small_, veriably working binaries`
`02:13.55`	`Primer`	`and how "developers" complained`
`02:14.01`	`Primer`	`when their shit failed to compile`
`02:14.17`	`Dagmar`	`Well, I remember earlier versions of gcc randomly fucking shit up hard.`
`02:14.29`	`Dagmar`	`So I am down with their frustration then`
`02:14.37`	`Primer`	`well, 2.96 was the version given to 3.0-pre`
`02:14.48`	`Dagmar`	`I learned the hard way to do the multistage bootstrap. A few times in a row if I felt uneasy about it`
`02:14.49`	`Primer`	`and Redhat put it in their distro to force people to fix their shit`
`02:15.00`	`Primer`	`because gcc 3 was guaranteed to break their shit`
`02:15.38`	`Esamynn\|work`	`heh`
`02:16.21`	`Primer`	`So in the long run Redhat did the right thing. It forced people to realize that they needed to address what the gcc people were doing.`
`02:16.33`	`Primer`	`Because it was going to happen`
`02:16.55`	`Primer`	`Dagmar: sorry, TL;DR`
`02:16.58`	`Dagmar`	`yeah but Poettering kinda started this mess on the far side of premature optimization and it's only going downhill from there`
`02:17.31`	`Dagmar`	`I would burn 'binary syslog' in effigy if I could find a way to set fire to an abstract concept`
`02:17.49`	`Primer`	`Dagmar: just burn jleclanche`
`02:18.19`	`Primer`	`Dagmar: this reads like someone from Microsoft wrote it`
`02:18.34`	`Primer`	`"Oh, you can't make your changes at run time? That's what rebooting is for."`
`02:18.51`	`Dagmar`	`Yeah. I run into that at work sometimes.`
`02:19.08`	`Dagmar`	`"But you guys don't want ot have to reboot all those machines after you install the new backup client."`
`02:19.14`	`Dagmar`	`"Don't worry. We won't."`
`02:19.24`	`Dagmar`	`Veem can suck a d**k`
`02:19.46`	`Primer`	`Well, say you've upgraded libc. You realize that you don't get that new libc in a running program until you restart it, right?`
`02:19.52`	`Dagmar`	`If I were a defense attorney I would touch myself every time I thought of that being used in an evidenciary proceeding`
`02:19.56`	`Primer`	`So say that libc fixes some root exploit`
`02:20.00`	`Primer`	`and you don't restart your ssh`
`02:20.04`	`Primer`	`and you get pwned`
`02:20.12`	`Primer`	`Who do you blame?`
`02:20.38`	`Dagmar`	`Actually you don't get it until you make the system drop the refcount for it to nil, which is actually _not that hard_`
`02:20.38`	`Primer`	`but, meh`
`02:20.40`	`Esamynn\|work`	`not yourself, that would be sensible :P`
`02:20.46`	`Dagmar`	`You just have to be aware of how the linker works`
`02:21.01`	`Primer`	`that's what I meant`
`02:21.18`	`Dagmar`	`It means dropping to runlevel 3 for some distros`
`02:21.23`	`Primer`	`but I guess that's why we get paid the big bucks...we know these things`
`02:21.38`	`Dagmar`	`I'd like to think that but my former bosses were morons.`
`02:21.44`	`Dagmar`	`...which is why I changed departments.`
`02:21.57`	`Dagmar`	`...and as soon as my old boss is FIRED I'll begin looking for another company.`
`02:22.14`	`Primer`	`I'm lucky in that I run everything :)`
`02:22.16`	`Dagmar`	`Yes, it's vindication that's the reason I'm currently working where I am.`
`02:23.34`	`Primer`	`But I do run inherited application code, which I often describe with words like 'spaghetti', and 'Rube Goldberg' and 'Winchester house'`
`02:24.02`	`Primer`	`the machines and distro though, solid as can be`
`02:24.17`	`Primer`	`but our production systems run Debian Stale`
`02:24.23`	`Primer`	`(that was not a typo)`
`02:24.32`	`Arrowmaster`	`Dagmar: i want a new toy http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pockethernet-the-swiss-army-knife-for-network-administrators`
`02:24.54`	`Esamynn\|work`	`Dagmar: read the article... maybe i'm just tired at the end of the day, but I didn't get your issue`
`02:25.27`	`Primer`	`I think he's saying that init on some distros now does way more than it should`
`02:26.00`	`Primer`	`I still boot to console`
`02:26.05`	`Primer`	`I hate booting straight into X`
`02:26.26`	`Primer`	`but I don't reboot that often anyhow`
`02:26.26`	`Esamynn\|work`	`first thing I do on a new box is set the default to run level 3 and unload X`
`02:26.34`	`Dagmar`	`"The usual approach to fix this for good is to make sure that PID 1 executes another binary (or itself) right before the unmount loop"`
`02:26.35`	`Esamynn\|work`	`or better yet, never install it`
`02:26.40`	`Dagmar`	`THere's a reason it's "the usual approach"`
`02:26.45`	`Primer`	`well, this is my desktop machine`
`02:26.49`	`Primer`	`so I actually use X`
`02:27.02`	`Primer`	`But if it's a server, there's no X. What'd be the point?`
`02:27.03`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I've never used Linux as a desktop`
`02:27.08`	`Primer`	`WHAT?!?!`
`02:27.12`	`Primer`	`BLASPHEMY!`
`02:27.25`	`Primer`	`I've been using Linux as my desktop since 1996`
`02:27.37`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`02:27.41`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I'm content to exist in the really really world when it comes to my desktop`
`02:27.44`	`Esamynn\|work`	`ie. Windows`
`02:27.49`	`Primer`	`pfft`
`02:27.59`	`Primer`	`Windows is good for one thing: games`
`02:28.27`	`Esamynn\|work`	`face it, the vast majority of GUI software is still written for Windows`
`02:28.31`	`Primer`	`So?`
`02:28.59`	`Dagmar`	`Fiftten years ago I would have said "porn" but VLC has come a long way`
`02:29.22`	`Esamynn\|work`	`so why would I artificially limit my potential program environment?`
`02:29.35`	`Primer`	`I could make the same argument`
`02:29.38`	`Arrowmaster`	`the shift to 64bit broke all the old binary decoder files that used to work great....`
`02:29.55`	`Arrowmaster`	`w32coders or whatever mplayer called them`
`02:29.59`	`Arrowmaster`	`codecs`
`02:30.36`	`Esamynn\|work`	`Primer: well, there is a reason I keep a Linux box handy`
`02:30.44`	`Primer`	`and I a windows box`
`02:30.45`	`Primer`	`games`
`02:31.20`	`Esamynn\|work`	`it's not just games that are more limited on Linux than Windows`
`02:31.42`	`Arrowmaster`	`i use a console for AAA games and most indie games now run on linux`
`02:32.15`	`Dagmar`	`I just want square to stop fucking around and translate Final Fantasy Tactics S.`
`02:32.19`	`Arrowmaster`	`im not buying a new console though so the AAA stuff better start supporting SteamOS`
`02:32.29`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I'm very careful about whether I get a game for PC or console`
`02:32.46`	`Esamynn\|work`	`specifically, will it play better with a controller or mouse+keyboard`
`02:33.39`	`Primer`	`I've found that the answer to that is always mouse + keyboard`
`02:33.45`	`Primer`	`so I don't even bother with console`
`02:33.50`	`Esamynn\|work`	`though, given that my PC is only a few metres from my TV, and controller support has improved drastically for PC games in the last few years... it may be quite a while before I acquire a xbone or PS4`
`02:34.10`	`Esamynn\|work`	`nah, some games do play better with a controller`
`02:34.28`	`Dagmar`	`Primer: The good news is that if you don't mind the screaming of children you can get an accessory for both the PS3 and Xbox that lets you make a mouse and keyboard masquerade as a controller. =D`
`02:34.34`	`Esamynn\|work`	`but any sort of shooting component and yah, Mouse+keyboard all the way`
`02:34.45`	`Dagmar`	`You will find no faster way of making other players declare that you have "hax".`
`02:34.53`	`Esamynn\|work`	`ROFL`
`02:35.00`	`Dagmar`	`...also of headshotting the fuck out of people with a quickness.`
`02:35.01`	`Arrowmaster`	`those are stupidly expensive though`
`02:35.08`	`Dagmar`	`Worth _every_ penny`
`02:35.20`	`Dagmar`	`...assuming you have proper headphones to hear their plaintive cries.`
`02:35.24`	`Esamynn\|work`	`define expensive?`
`02:35.31`	`Arrowmaster`	`although i did buy a controller that lets me program it with macros for stupidly expensive`
`02:35.43`	`Esamynn\|work`	`s/expensive?/"stupidly expensive"`
`02:35.49`	`Esamynn\|work`	`D'OHG`
`02:35.54`	`Dagmar`	`I've only erred once, and recently, in GTAV Online.`
`02:36.07`	`Dagmar`	`Turns out 18-year-old girls can sound a lot like 9-year old boyw`
`02:36.14`	`Primer`	`Dagmar: reaaaallly`
`02:36.22`	`Dagmar`	`...and man do they get pissy about being repeatedly roflmurdered`
`02:36.26`	`znf`	`http://blog.usabilla.com/humans-now-account-less-40-web-traffic/`
`02:36.27`	`Arrowmaster`	`lol`
`02:36.27`	`Esamynn\|work`	`ha!`
`02:36.30`	`Primer`	`that's always been one of my main complaints with console games`
`02:36.54`	`Esamynn\|work`	`you came across an 18 year old girl playing GTAV online?`
`02:36.57`	`Primer`	`especially with FPS`
`02:36.59`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I call bullshit`
`02:37.06`	`Dagmar`	`znf: I feel that that is the leading reason that porno is no longer the majority case for internet traffic`
`02:37.08`	`Dagmar`	`Bots.`
`02:37.11`	`Primer`	`I just can't get used to playing a FPS with a console controller`
`02:37.17`	`Primer`	`DOES. NOT. WORK.`
`02:37.27`	`Arrowmaster`	`i think its been so long since ive played FPSs with a mouse ive forgotten how good i am`
`02:37.46`	`Dagmar`	`Esamynn\|work: Well, she used language like a 30-year-old sailor, but after I mentioned why I was repeatedly killing her, I feel her reactions was fairly sincere`
`02:38.01`	`Dagmar`	`She was _really_ angry. hehe`
`02:38.14`	`Esamynn\|work`	`why were you killing her repeatedly?`
`02:38.23`	`Dagmar`	`Because I thought she was a 9-year-old boy.`
`02:38.28`	`Arrowmaster`	`so she would send him pix to make him stop`
`02:38.49`	`Dagmar`	`I had a realization a few months back about small children playing Grand Theft Auto V.`
`02:38.54`	`Dagmar`	`I have guns.`
`02:39.05`	`Dagmar`	`I can actually solve that problem all by myself. :)`
`02:39.21`	`Dagmar`	`I kill them until they logout`
`02:40.50`	`Amarande`	`hah`
`02:41.02`	`Esamynn\|work`	`okay, this is bugging me.... <Primer> that's always been one of my main complaints with console games <-- what?`
`02:41.09`	`Amarande`	`so basically, 60% of Internet traffic is actually devoted to robots indexing the minority of the Internet traffic that's actual content`
`02:41.38`	`Amarande`	`... we're going to end up like these guys, aren't we ...`
`02:41.39`	`Amarande`	`http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Fnd_in_a_Lbry`
`02:42.50`	`Primer`	`Esamynn\|work: FPS + console controller == suck`
`02:43.26`	`Esamynn\|work`	`god yes`
`02:43.30`	`Esamynn\|work`	`never again`
`02:43.34`	`Primer`	`This is what I do in such games: "Oh, 12 year old is shooting me from behind, I must pivot to shoot him back. I start to pivot...aaaaaaaaaand I'm dead"`
`02:43.37`	`Primer`	`Or`
`02:44.03`	`Esamynn\|work`	`though I generally don't play many FPS games anymore`
`02:44.05`	`Primer`	`"I must pivot. I start to pivot and over-pivot. Then I must compensate...aaaaaaaand I over-pivoted again"`
`02:44.15`	`Primer`	`and I'm dead`
`02:44.39`	`Esamynn\|work`	`basically, if I need fine aiming control, or even if it would be at all useful.. I get it for PC`
`02:44.46`	`Primer`	`yup`
`02:44.48`	`Esamynn\|work`	`for precisely that reason`
`02:45.11`	`Esamynn\|work`	`but something like the Batman Arkham games... I feel those play better with a controller`
`02:47.14`	`Esamynn\|work`	`also, that Pockethernet device you linked Arrowmaster, I really like that idea... I might just go for that`
`02:58.33`	`Esamynn\|work`	`not sold on the $150 price tag though... but perhaps I just underestimate the costs involved`
`03:03.11`	`Shirik`	`Amarande: Please give me a reason to not delete that article immediately`
`03:04.03`	`Arrowmaster`	`Esamynn\|work: have you ever priced a device with the same features, they are typically $1000`
`03:04.48`	`Esamynn\|work`	`turns out it doesn't matter anyways`
`03:05.03`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I don't think they're including Canada when they say US`
`03:05.05`	`Esamynn\|work`	`:(`
`03:07.33`	`*** join/#wowuidev ShadniX\| (dagger@p5794129A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`03:10.12`	`Neffi`	`lol http://imgur.com/gallery/a24NRtB`
`03:19.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev Caleb\| (~Caleb\|@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/EnsidiaFails/Caleb)`
`03:28.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`03:44.23`	`*** join/#wowuidev schnoggo (~lonkoenig@216.161.20.67)`
`03:46.05`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kraps (~Kraps@unaffiliated/kraps)`
`03:58.57`	`kd3`	`oh wow at the google home page`
`03:59.17`	`Dagmar`	`They're not being subtle about it now`
`04:18.35`	`kullervo`	`how would you be subtle about it`
`04:23.05`	`znf`	`well, shit StackOverflow`
`04:23.06`	`znf`	`too long by 469 characters`
`04:23.07`	`znf`	`:-/`
`04:24.45`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hazal (~Mikkel@0x5e910d43.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`04:38.05`	`Dagmar`	`kullervo: THey were subtle about it when they first put it up. At _first_ it didn't link to an explanation of why the rainbow instead of the usual Olympic colors`
`04:38.45`	`kullervo`	`ah right it has... yes`
`04:38.58`	`kullervo`	`a bit tired perhaps`
`04:40.13`	`Dagmar`	`Nah if you didn't see it earlier you'd have no way of knowing`
`04:40.53`	`kullervo`	`no, I also didn't even think anything about the logo being a rainbow`
`04:41.11`	`Dagmar`	`Ah okay. That one I'd chalk up to being tired for sure`
`04:41.14`	`kullervo`	`or the text under it`
`04:43.23`	`kullervo`	`oh ffs I can't think`
`04:43.48`	`kullervo`	`having trouble with my server's drives`
`04:43.58`	`kullervo`	`samba shares`
`04:45.35`	`kullervo`	`fuck me sideways if my movie drive is busted`
`04:47.29`	`kullervo`	`guess I'll have to check it on a local machine after work tomorrow, too late for this shit... night`
`04:49.49`	`airtonix`	`Shirik: why would you delete that article... sounds like a dick move`
`04:50.04`	`airtonix`	`you don't want to be a dick to you?`
`04:51.00`	`airtonix`	`how about that... txt/sms speak wasn't born with the mobile phone`
`04:52.36`	`Neffi`	`rly?`
`04:53.27`	`Dagmar`	`Mobile phones just made it accessible to idiots.`
`05:06.23`	`Thunder_Child`	`That's how I feel about youtube in general.`
`05:10.16`	`Arrowmaster`	`kullervo: whats wrong?`
`05:20.15`	`*** join/#wowuidev craigp (~craigp@105-236-190-94.access.mtnbusiness.co.za)`
`05:31.18`	`znf`	`Anyone happens to know which "pixel perfect" font is that in the middle? http://s.cdn.wowinterface.com/preview/pvw62118.png`
`05:33.28`	`nebula169`	`the '8' is annoying`
`05:39.39`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`05:51.22`	`Primer`	`pixel perfect?`
`05:51.28`	`Primer`	`maybe you mean monospace?`
`05:52.17`	`Primer`	`oh, I guess by pixel perfect you mean the name of the addon`
`05:52.54`	`*** part/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-74-226-99-84.mem.bellsouth.net)`
`05:53.07`	`Primer`	`I've grown to hate that term. It's been thrown about at the office a lot lately. We've had an uppity designer redo a bunch of stuff that can only be done "pixel perfect" in HTML`
`05:53.15`	`Primer`	`Luckily I don't do that shit`
`05:54.35`	`znf`	`Primer, no, people keep referring to them as "pixel perfect", even though they're monospaced... so I'd rather just not confuse people more :P`
`05:55.04`	`Primer`	`ahh`
`05:55.21`	`Primer`	`I guess someone felt like re-inventing the wheel`
`05:55.43`	`nebula169`	`znf: looks like silkscreen`
`05:55.59`	`znf`	`nebula169, thanks!`
`05:56.20`	`Primer`	`nebula169: has breser merged your PB4 stuff yet?`
`05:56.54`	`nebula169`	`nah, haven't talked to him in awhile`
`05:57.52`	`Primer`	`was just curious. Saw you just now, did a git pull...nothing new`
`05:58.03`	`Primer`	`boss frames seem to be working perfectly though`
`06:00.43`	`breser`	`Sorry, haven't touched WoW stuff in a while. I've got 4 presentations to prepare for conferences on top of my normal work. It was 3 and then someone volunteeered me for something.`
`06:00.59`	`Semlar`	`you are not prepared`
`06:01.03`	`Primer`	`What sort of presentations, if we might ask?`
`06:01.33`	`Semlar`	`we just hit the enrage timer on the protectors at 6%`
`06:01.43`	`nebula169`	`MOAR DOTS`
`06:02.04`	`Semlar`	`NOT ENOUGH DOTS`
`06:03.44`	`breser`	`Primer: One on how to use clang-analyzer, one of svnpubsub, one on authn and authz with svn, and one on git-svn`
`06:03.52`	`breser`	`s/of/on/`
`06:03.52`	`Semlar`	`i think it's because we're saving bloodlust for anguish`
`06:04.10`	`Primer`	`breser: where?`
`06:04.27`	`Primer`	`I ask because I'm attending SCALE, an LA Linux conference in a few weeks`
`06:04.33`	`Primer`	`And was wondering if that was it :)`
`06:05.03`	`Primer`	`One year I volunteered as a Postgresql advocate there`
`06:05.10`	`Primer`	`but that was like, 5 years ago`
`06:05.24`	`breser`	`Primer: Nope, ApacheCon in Denver and Subversion & Git Live in SF and NY.`
`06:05.46`	`Primer`	`I really need to migrate work to git`
`06:05.59`	`Primer`	`but I still have to hold the hands of developers with svn`
`06:06.13`	`Primer`	`"developers"`
`06:06.29`	`breser`	`Primer: You're on crack if you think it'll change with git.`
`06:06.43`	`Primer`	`heh`
`06:06.47`	`Primer`	`I'm still on svn :)`
`06:06.48`	`breser`	`Primer: The hand holding will just change.`
`06:06.51`	`Primer`	`that should say something`
`06:06.59`	`Primer`	`exactly`
`06:07.11`	`Primer`	`I've actually written a few scripts to make things easier`
`06:07.25`	`Primer`	`one that does merges from developer branches to trunk`
`06:07.31`	`breser`	`Primer: And frankly I wouldn't want to touch trying to do gamedev with git.`
`06:07.39`	`Primer`	`before I joined, everyone just checked out trunk`
`06:07.41`	`Primer`	`it was a mess`
`06:07.56`	`Primer`	`this is web crap, not game`
`06:07.56`	`breser`	`Primer: Doing sparse checkouts now?`
`06:08.02`	`Primer`	`nope`
`06:08.10`	`nebula169`	`Primer: that can be easier than personal branches if you don't have a vcs manager !`
`06:08.19`	`Primer`	`it's the root of the branch or trunk, always`
`06:08.20`	`breser`	`Ahh web dev doesn't matter.`
`06:08.32`	`breser`	`As far as what you use.`
`06:08.37`	`Semlar`	`neffi how come you let me die`
`06:09.35`	`Primer`	`you should have deterenced`
`06:10.12`	`Primer`	`Semlar: what was your item level in that Garrosh video you linked earlier today?`
`06:10.13`	`Semlar`	`fun fact: deterrence makes mark of anguish immediately attack somebody else`
`06:10.17`	`Primer`	`You did some mad deeps`
`06:10.27`	`Semlar`	`probably 565`
`06:10.27`	`Primer`	`Semlar: that's perfect!`
`06:10.40`	`Semlar`	`disengage ALSO makes it switch to a random target`
`06:10.41`	`Primer`	`that's about what all our people are, but no one ends up over 300k`
`06:10.48`	`Primer`	`but our DPS is much more evenly spread out`
`06:10.48`	`Semlar`	`really?`
`06:11.00`	`Primer`	`Let me find a parse`
`06:11.23`	`Semlar`	`i spend most of my time hopping around and yelling at my pet`
`06:11.41`	`Primer`	`http://worldoflogs.com/reports/1r6hvtuu6ccbylvj/analyze/dd/source/?s=13275&e=13808`
`06:11.49`	`Primer`	`Our hunter is finally stepping up`
`06:11.51`	`Semlar`	`i also do almost no aoe damage on garrosh`
`06:11.57`	`Semlar`	`except my cloak proc`
`06:12.06`	`Primer`	`she got the heroic weapon from...one of our 4/14 H bosses`
`06:12.30`	`Primer`	`I find that hard to believe, considering you almost hitting 1M DPS at the start`
`06:12.32`	`Semlar`	`the tanks usually pull the adds away and beast cleave has a really small radius so i don't generally bother`
`06:12.45`	`Semlar`	`i can hit a million dps single target`
`06:12.47`	`Primer`	`AOE is the only reason why I can maintain any decent DPS on that fight`
`06:13.10`	`Semlar`	`i do it on siegecrafter at the start of the fight and there are no adds at all`
`06:13.46`	`Semlar`	`most of my damage is burst`
`06:14.05`	`Primer`	`and that at > 90%?`
`06:14.26`	`Semlar`	`the very start of the fight`
`06:14.38`	`Semlar`	`is by far the most damage i do`
`06:15.21`	`Primer`	`http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmourne/Marintha/advanced`
`06:15.23`	`Primer`	`that's our hunter`
`06:15.30`	`Primer`	`and I consistently out DPS her`
`06:15.55`	`Semlar`	`iron juggernaut and malkorok are probably the best fights to look at`
`06:16.06`	`Semlar`	`oh my god that weapon`
`06:16.06`	`Primer`	`wow, not only is her bow heroic, it's heroic warforged`
`06:16.42`	`Semlar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:16.53`	`Semlar`	`i just got that heroic neck tonight`
`06:17.02`	`Primer`	`If we weren't such a casual guild, I'd call her out`
`06:17.18`	`Semlar`	`i do pretty casual raiding`
`06:17.19`	`Primer`	`but then people would say I'm an asshole (not that they don't already)`
`06:17.50`	`Primer`	`I need to work on my DPS. Our new SP has been beating me`
`06:17.58`	`Primer`	`But I know he theorycrafts like crazy`
`06:18.18`	`Semlar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:18.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`06:19.00`	`Primer`	`The other SP and I are 1 item level apart now. I'm 565, he's 564, but he has the haste trinket`
`06:19.44`	`Primer`	`Semlar: Who kills the engineer?`
`06:19.48`	`Semlar`	`that weapon they have is 19 ilevels over mine`
`06:19.56`	`Semlar`	`elemental shaman`
`06:20.05`	`Semlar`	`respecced from healer`
`06:20.17`	`Primer`	`ahh, so both of those explain his low DPS`
`06:20.28`	`Primer`	`our ele sham is our healer-with-dps-OS`
`06:21.07`	`Semlar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:21.48`	`Primer`	`oddly, our hunter comes out on top for that one`
`06:22.03`	`Primer`	`and I on the bottom, even below one of the tanks :(`
`06:22.28`	`Primer`	`I've been using the wrong spec for that fight though`
`06:22.32`	`Semlar`	`tanks do substantial damage on that fight`
`06:22.34`	`Primer`	`lately, at least`
`06:22.40`	`Primer`	`yeah, they do`
`06:23.30`	`Semlar`	`they're survival?`
`06:23.51`	`nebula169`	`i use to do good dps on garrosh, then the asshole dps got some gear and took away my vengenace`
`06:24.05`	`Semlar`	`no they're definitely beast mastery for this fight`
`06:24.20`	`Semlar`	`man, do you know how much damage i would do with their weapon`
`06:24.52`	`Gethe`	`Semlar: you need more warcraftlogs.com in your combat log anaysis`
`06:24.59`	`Semlar`	`:l`
`06:25.26`	`Primer`	`The other SP in our raid has 10% more mastery than I do`
`06:25.27`	`Gethe`	`:)`
`06:25.36`	`Primer`	`but I can't achieve that without that damn Garrosh trinket`
`06:25.43`	`Primer`	`every fucking caster in our raid has it except me`
`06:25.52`	`Primer`	`it's only ever dropped once`
`06:26.07`	`Primer`	`and I wasn't on the top of the list that day`
`06:27.08`	`Primer`	`Semlar: I'm very interested in your nameplate stuff`
`06:27.20`	`Primer`	`I just can't stand that nameplates move`
`06:27.27`	`Semlar`	`ah`
`06:27.37`	`Semlar`	`yeah i'm fiddlin with it`
`06:28.08`	`Semlar`	`the one thing i notice in the graphs is that i peak at almost 1.25 million dps and they don't get past 550k`
`06:28.58`	`Primer`	`I would love to see something that looked like this:`
`06:29.01`	`Primer`	`[dot] [dot] === class or aggro colored nameplate === [target] [castbar]`
`06:30.12`	`Primer`	`like, if out in the world, it'd be class colored, swapping to aggro in pve, and be role dependent, like how tidyplates can show the neutral color for aggro on another tank`
`06:30.15`	`Semlar`	`i was working on a way to sort them so they weren't completely random but it's a little tricky because you can't even define your own sort function`
`06:30.23`	`Primer`	`I don't do friendly plates, btw`
`06:30.44`	`Semlar`	`friendly plates probably wouldn't work great with this`
`06:30.50`	`Semlar`	`i don't know though`
`06:30.52`	`Primer`	`it'd be great if you could somehow sort by proximity, but I imagine that would be the least likely one`
`06:31.11`	`Semlar`	`i can sort of sort by proximity`
`06:31.15`	`Semlar`	`which is what i was trying to do`
`06:31.37`	`Primer`	`I'd say proximity first, then just alphabetically`
`06:31.45`	`Semlar`	`alphabetically i definitely can't`
`06:31.45`	`znf`	`Primer, "bitmap font" which is sometimes the same as monospaced, but fixed size!`
`06:32.02`	`Semlar`	`i have no access to the regions like font strings and textures`
`06:32.12`	`Semlar`	`but i know where the plates are on the screen`
`06:32.18`	`Primer`	`znf: is that just another term for pixel perfect?`
`06:32.27`	`Semlar`	`and i could group them by distance from the center`
`06:32.52`	`znf`	`Primer, actually the other way around. bitmap fonts is what they used to be called.`
`06:33.01`	`Primer`	`so things like dots, aggro, castbars, and target...would just be a matter of making a new tidyplates theme?`
`06:33.36`	`Semlar`	`i could probably merge it with tidyplates somehow`
`06:33.50`	`Semlar`	`it would be easier than rewriting it`
`06:34.57`	`Semlar`	`i have no idea where stampede is on world of logs or if you can even see its damage`
`06:35.05`	`Primer`	`I've watched a few videos today and I saw someone pvping out in the world, and there was an addon announcing the spells. Anyone know the name of this addon?`
`06:35.36`	`Primer`	`It was select spells of the target`
`06:35.57`	`Primer`	`It was a female voice reciting "Stampede"..."Frost trap"...`
`06:36.06`	`Primer`	`because he was being ganked by a hunter`
`06:37.05`	`*** join/#wowuidev craigp (~craigp@105-208-136-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za)`
`06:37.10`	`Gethe`	`VEM?`
`06:37.10`	`Primer`	`actually`
`06:37.16`	`Primer`	`I think it was your video, Semlar`
`06:37.24`	`Primer`	`"Swirling corruption"`
`06:37.29`	`Semlar`	`well that's vem but i don't know what it would be doing for pvp`
`06:37.40`	`Semlar`	`there might be a pvp module`
`06:38.08`	`Primer`	`it was your video, and another pvp video, actually`
`06:40.12`	`Semlar`	`voice encounter mods`
`06:41.48`	`Primer`	`one of the categories is pvp`
`06:41.50`	`Primer`	`for that mod`
`06:46.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev g0urra (~g0urra@unaffiliated/gourra)`
`06:50.41`	`Semlar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:52.19`	`tz`	`grats? :P`
`06:52.29`	`znf`	`I downloaded "SharedMedia" and I was looking at the instructions, and when I reached this line it made me laugh:`
`06:52.31`	`znf`	`" Using a Mac you most likely know what you're doing so write your own script. ;)`
`06:52.32`	`znf`	`"`
`06:52.33`	`tz`	`I never rank on anything, it's cool`
`06:52.54`	`Semlar`	`should've used citizen snips`
`06:53.03`	`Semlar`	`i'm renaming all of my pets`
`06:53.55`	`Semlar`	`that way i'll always know which name to yell when it dies`
`06:54.24`	`Semlar`	`CITIZEN SNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPS!!!`
`06:54.50`	`Shirik`	`Semlar gets points++ for futurama reference`
`06:55.47`	`Semlar`	`>_>`
`06:56.18`	`Shirik`	`~semlar++`
`06:56.31`	`Semlar`	`semlar = semlar + 1`
`06:56.43`	`Shirik`	`~karma semlar`
`06:56.43`	`purl`	`semlar has karma of 1`
`06:57.08`	`Semlar`	`primer does your hunter know they have stampede`
`06:57.28`	`Semlar`	`maybe they have it glyphed`
`06:57.53`	`Semlar`	`since only one name is showing up`
`07:02.10`	`Primer`	`good question`
`07:02.17`	`Semlar`	`i think they just have it glyphed`
`07:02.44`	`Semlar`	`i have no idea why they aren't doing more damage`
`07:03.46`	`Primer`	`PB4 is still fucked`
`07:04.00`	`Primer`	`it's still not loading all raid frames when you join an in-progress bg`
`07:04.32`	`Primer`	`I wonder if I've got some config baggage that's causing that`
`07:04.56`	`airtonix`	`Primer: send this link to your lolDesigner : http://signalvnoise.com/posts/1061-why-we-skip-photoshop`
`07:05.38`	`airtonix`	`"Oh so you're not designing for print and you use photoshop? interesting... tell me more"`
`07:09.41`	`Semlar`	`you've spent 3 days on a photoshop mockup and now you need to redo it in css so why don't you skip that part? are they for reals`
`07:10.55`	`Semlar`	`yeah why don't you just skip the whole design portion and just do it!`
`07:12.09`	`Primer`	`airtonix: will do`
`07:14.53`	`airtonix`	`Primer: to be honest, if you designer can't do the same thing with pen and paper, i'd be worried.`
`07:14.57`	`airtonix`	`your*`
`07:15.09`	`Primer`	`he's on the east coast...we're on the west`
`07:15.54`	`airtonix`	`using photoshop to begin with is a sign that they've yet to comprehend the disparity between the target medium and photoshops intended target medium`
`07:16.17`	`Primer`	`agreed there`
`07:19.43`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`07:21.05`	`*** join/#wowuidev cbreak-work (~cbreak@drz-wizzer.drz.ethz.ch)`
`07:22.02`	`Semlar`	`sketching up a quick draft is fine`
`07:23.19`	`Semlar`	`but if you need to present it to somebody for approval you really need something more visual`
`07:23.28`	`airtonix`	`no`
`07:23.35`	`airtonix`	`read the article`
`07:23.57`	`airtonix`	`that "visual" as you call it. Is going to be far more impressive if those buttons are actually clickable`
`07:24.47`	`airtonix`	`so you've spent the last 2 hours in photoshop making this "visual", congratualtions... that's 2 hours you could have spent in developer tools on chrome actually designing around reality of the browser`
`07:25.02`	`airtonix`	`and end up with a working prototype`
`07:33.12`	`Primer`	`except "designers" don't do HTML`
`07:33.17`	`Primer`	`they do photoshop`
`07:37.42`	`pompy`	`http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/07/diablo-3-surpasses-15-million-sales`
`07:42.09`	`Primer`	`unlikely`
`07:42.30`	`*** join/#wowuidev schnoggo_ (~lonkoenig@216.161.20.67)`
`07:48.29`	`*** join/#wowuidev craigp (~craigp@105-208-141-216.access.mtnbusiness.co.za)`
`07:49.16`	`znf`	`Primer, lies.`
`07:49.28`	`znf`	`Primer, http://osvaldas.info/web-designers-write-code-poster`
`07:50.18`	`Semlar`	`on the other hand they don't "design" by writing html and css`
`07:51.40`	`Semlar`	`it would be like building a house without drawing up blueprints`
`07:58.12`	`Primer`	`Semlar: apples and oranges`
`07:58.29`	`Primer`	`there are some designs that are just not easily translated to proper HTML`
`07:58.43`	`Primer`	`as soon as you start doing pixel perfect shit, all is lost`
`07:58.49`	`znf`	`honestly, best designs lately are not`
`07:58.56`	`znf`	`honestly, best designs lately are not "pixel perfect" saved from photoshop`
`07:59.16`	`znf`	`most stuff I like that I see online are things built with modern web technologies`
`07:59.52`	`znf`	`for example, this simple audio player: http://osvaldas.info/examples/audio-player-responsive-and-touch-friendly/ I'm 99.99(9)% sure that it wasn't "desiged" in photoshop`
`08:02.13`	`*** join/#wowuidev VIad (~Vlad@151.117.45.31.customer.cdi.no)`
`08:03.04`	`znf`	`Going back to the roots; Would adding ~50++ fonts into LSM do anything "bad" to the game, performance wise?`
`08:03.40`	`Semlar`	`it would make it load slower`
`08:05.37`	`znf`	`that's to be expected :P`
`08:06.34`	`Semlar`	`i imagine that would be the only thing`
`08:07.24`	`znf`	`cool`
`08:07.48`	`Semlar`	`i guess you could try it and see what happens`
`08:08.22`	`Semlar`	`photoshop choked on the number of fonts i had installed a while back`
`08:08.41`	`Semlar`	`but i think that was mainly from all the rendering it was attempting to do`
`08:08.44`	`amro`	`it probably only renders glyphs that are used so unless you try to render in those fonts probably little to no difference`
`08:09.03`	`znf`	`on a completely unrelated note, I wonder if I could make notepad++ have a "session" like feature`
`08:09.20`	`znf`	`so if I close it, it retains the tabs I have opened`
`08:09.53`	`nebula169`	`uh`
`08:09.55`	`nebula169`	`it does`
`08:10.02`	`nebula169`	`like by default`
`08:11.18`	`nebula169`	`can also save different sets of open tabs and restore them`
`08:12.12`	`znf`	`nebula169, I know that it does that by default with the files that are saved`
`08:12.40`	`znf`	`I'm looking for something that keeps all these things "in memory"; like, unsaved tabs, unsaved edits to files I have opened`
`08:13.05`	`nebula169`	`why would you not save shit`
`08:13.15`	`nebula169`	`and close the program`
`08:13.46`	`znf`	`because I don't always want to save shit, right now I have over 20 tabs opened, and they're simply snippets of code`
`08:31.15`	`znf`	`also, does anyone know of a tool/way to crop+resize any input image to a specific size?`
`08:31.25`	`Primer`	`Imagemagick!`
`08:31.50`	`znf`	`Primer, I thought about that, but I have no idea how to script that`
`08:32.03`	`Primer`	`it's all command line shit`
`08:32.06`	`znf`	`I want to get a fixed image of 1280x720 without knowing an input`
`08:32.09`	`znf`	`I know how it is! :P`
`08:32.24`	`znf`	`/s/input/input\ size/`
`08:32.33`	`amro`	`then you just specify the output size`
`08:33.47`	`znf`	`Hmmm, mkay, I was overthinking this`
`08:39.57`	`*** join/#wowuidev craigp (~craigp@105-236-190-94.access.mtnbusiness.co.za)`
`08:59.11`	`znf`	`I'm assuming LSM can't load .fon right?`
`08:59.33`	`nebula169`	`wow needs to be able to SetFont it`
`09:00.16`	`nebula169`	`not sure the types it'll read`
`09:01.01`	`znf`	`I want a bitmap/pixel font that looks best at 10px intervals :-/`
`09:01.13`	`znf`	`Silkscreen looks nice, but it looks good at 8px intervals`
`09:01.21`	`znf`	`16 is too big, 8 is too damn small`
`09:04.01`	`nebula169`	`yeeea, probably not gonna have much luck with that`
`09:06.30`	`tz`	`do a search for "C&C Red Alert (LAN)"`
`09:13.51`	`*** join/#wowuidev Icicle (~Icicle@212.121.131.8)`
`09:16.06`	`nevcairiel`	`why do you want a bitmap font in the first place`
`09:18.53`	`amro`	`80s night`
`09:20.50`	`Shirik`	`I'll show you my bitmap font`
`09:21.08`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`09:21.24`	`tz`	`kinky`
`09:23.24`	`*** join/#wowuidev Corv (~Corv@ip68-8-123-148.sd.sd.cox.net)`
`09:27.16`	`znf`	`nevcairiel, just changing some things around my UI`
`09:27.44`	`Mr_Rabies`	`are you making warcraft: blood dragon`
`09:30.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@cpc2-craw2-0-0-cust191.16-3.cable.virginm.net)`
`09:30.28`	`*** join/#wowuidev brykrys (~chatzilla@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys)`
`09:32.20`	`Mr_Rabies`	`znf: i'm not 100% sure what you're looking for, but dafont has some pretty good options`
`09:32.24`	`Mr_Rabies`	`http://www.dafont.com/visitor.font`
`09:32.27`	`znf`	`Mr_Rabies, that's where I'm looking`
`09:32.40`	`znf`	`visitor is what I actually installed into lsm just now :P`
`09:34.19`	`Mr_Rabies`	`http://www.dafont.com/metroid-fusion.font?fpp=100&sort=date`
`09:34.48`	`Mr_Rabies`	`http://www.dafont.com/super-mario-world.font?fpp=100&sort=date`
`09:36.36`	`Mr_Rabies`	`oh, this seems really usable for reading words: http://www.dafont.com/5psycho.font?fpp=100&sort=date`
`09:44.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`10:28.18`	`znf`	`Mr_Rabies, think I'm sticking to Visitor`
`10:28.31`	`znf`	`now, if I could figure out a way to make SUF _not_ show my auras :-?`
`10:28.31`	`Mr_Rabies`	`lol it seems pretty good`
`10:29.14`	`znf`	`(but only on the target frame)`
`10:31.39`	`znf`	`Shadowed, would it even be possible for me to not display MY auras on my target?`
`10:32.26`	`znf`	`(by means of a custom module/plugin etc.)`
`10:32.27`	`nevcairiel`	`why would you want everyone elses but not yours o.o`
`10:32.38`	`nevcairiel`	`and anything is possible`
`10:33.02`	`znf`	`nevcairiel, I want to display like ~10 other auras, really small (like 16 pixels), but I want to display mine with WeakAuras on that specific unit`
`10:33.57`	`znf`	`nevcairiel, I know anything is possible, I'm just wondering if I could write a plugin or something for that (ie: does suf allow it)`
`10:36.44`	`Workfoz`	`advanced config`
`10:36.51`	`Workfoz`	`and you can configure every unit on its own`
`10:36.58`	`Workfoz`	`and it has filters, too`
`10:37.08`	`Workfoz`	`you can probably achieve it with what's there already`
`10:37.16`	`Workfoz`	`not sure how though without having the game here ;)`
`10:41.44`	`Icicle`	`Morning`
`10:42.18`	`Icicle`	`I had a strange dream last night... I got hired by Blizzard but by the Starcraft team instead of the Warcraft team... and it made me very scared for some reason`
`10:44.40`	`*** join/#wowuidev Workfoz (uid23742@WoWUIDev/WowAce/Gnarfoz)`
`10:45.24`	`*** join/#wowuidev Workfoz (uid23742@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eqkwsahwlhwpxgjw)`
`10:46.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev Workfoz (uid23742@WoWUIDev/WowAce/Gnarfoz)`
`10:46.37`	`*** join/#wowuidev Guest63031 (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se)`
`10:53.47`	`znf`	`Workfoz, I figured I could do filters for that, but I was looking for something more automated than configuring filters manually :D`
`10:54.04`	`znf`	`(the first thing I looked for was to add a fitler for "own" auras :P)`
`10:54.11`	`znf`	`without supplying name :D`
`10:54.37`	`znf`	`Workfoz, also, it doesn' work for my use case, if I put "shadow word: pain" in there, all swp's will be hidden :P`
`11:00.00`	`karl_w_w`	`you know what really gets my goat?`
`11:00.05`	`karl_w_w`	`goat herders`
`11:05.17`	`znf`	`For how long OmniCC has been around, it severly lacks in display options...`
`11:06.27`	`znf`	`(that M/H suffix on buffs annoys me right now...)`
`11:38.03`	`VIad`	`Semlar: I have a namteplate issue :(((`
`11:41.45`	`VIad`	`nooo.. now that I need Semlar so badly :(`
`11:45.07`	`mikma`	`http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=do%20the%20harlem%20shake&sm=3`
`11:52.51`	`*** join/#wowuidev zz_Cidan (~cidan@2605:e000:9fc0:2b:1566:f7e:9b95:1925)`
`11:57.13`	`VIad`	`Semlar: when I created new nameplates that parent to a wrapper frame for eays hiding and showing, the issue then is that nameplate additions like platebuffs can't detect these as the only frame child under WoldFrame is this wrapper frame :P`
`11:57.26`	`VIad`	`if only I could define that this wrapper frame has these children that are namepaltes :(`
`12:00.29`	`VIad`	`btw pitbull uses a custom coded lib called LibNameplate-1.0 and the idea is great but the lib lacks registering custom namepaltes`
`12:01.08`	`VIad`	`I think that's the problem, looking at the sourcecode it expects certain type of frames to flag as "nameplates" and that's fine, but to support 3rd party addons it should have had API to register your custom frames with it :P`
`13:04.49`	`*** join/#wowuidev Dennls (~dennis@s55973038.adsl.online.nl)`
`13:18.47`	`znf`	`I think I finally found a thing that annoys me about SUF - it's peculiar weight system for setting widget heights`
`13:19.02`	`znf`	`would have been happier with plain pixel measurements`
`13:25.34`	`zenzio`	`somehow I doubt Flavio is going to answer this... (see bottom of page) https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=14692`
`13:28.21`	`mikma`	`http://weknowvines.com/ice-makes-everyone-break-dancer-vine/`
`13:30.32`	`karl_w_w`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWKzC89U7zg that's pretty cool`
`13:41.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (~Lopeppepp@141.222.23.76)`
`13:41.11`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ`
`13:41.43`	`zenzio`	`tickles peppy`
`13:47.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev g0urra (~g0urra@unaffiliated/gourra)`
`13:48.25`	`*** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy)`
`13:48.48`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Good morning, my beautiful soup tureen.`
`13:56.53`	`Fisker`	`slaps Lopeppeppy around a bit with a large trout`
`13:57.01`	`Fisker`	`Good morning Lopeppeppy`
`13:57.37`	`*** join/#wowuidev solocommand (~solocomma@208.86.102.194)`
`14:00.25`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Good morning, my excellent soup spoon.`
`14:00.50`	`Fisker`	`yay I'm useful`
`14:13.35`	`zenzio`	`"Finally got this fixed. A simple restart of the server stopped the seg faults" - sounds like typical developer debugging; try every possible solution, including posting on forums, before restarting the server`
`14:13.53`	`zenzio`	`(okay on production obviously; development shouldn't be as strict)`
`14:14.08`	`Lopeppeppy`	`I wish I could restart my servers, I'd bounce them first. I'm tired of "restarted ssm" being the solution to all of my faultcodes.`
`14:14.23`	`Fisker`	`I wish I could restart your servers`
`14:14.54`	`zenzio`	`Fisker would accidentally all the servers`
`14:14.58`	`Fisker`	`nope`
`14:15.05`	`Fisker`	`I don't accidentally servers`
`14:15.19`	`nevcairiel`	`zenzio: well, if you have to restart it on a regular basis to fix an issue, you are happy if you get some time with a failing server to debug around a bit before someone restarts it and all information is lost again :p`
`14:15.58`	`zenzio`	`nevcairiel: if you're not alone working on a server, then it's obviously more of an issue, that is true`
`14:16.10`	`zenzio`	`although in this case I think he just meant Apache, not the machine`
`14:16.23`	`zenzio`	`he was ambiguous`
`14:19.25`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO^^ (~A-KO@unaffiliated/a-ko)`
`14:24.41`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Rawr, and stuff.`
`14:25.31`	`Lopeppeppy`	`(I have The Crankies. Snow removal requires parking in the boonies and walking a lot in the cold. Cold is not kind to my cranky tooth. Hence, I am also cranky because I cannot take The Good Drugs at work. Rawr.)`
`14:26.34`	`zenzio`	`"Usage notes: The form "wits' end" is preferred nearly 3 to 1 in the UK, the form "wit's end" is preferred more than 2 to 1 in the US"`
`14:26.39`	`zenzio`	`typical`
`14:27.09`	`zenzio`	`what are the "good drugs"?`
`14:29.37`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Tylenol + codeine = forget that it hurts for a while.`
`14:31.00`	`nevcairiel`	`also forget about a whole lot of other stuff for a while?`
`14:33.57`	`*** join/#wowuidev Amarande (Amarande@24-151-100-63.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com)`
`14:35.17`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Nope, I won't take anything that heavy. I'm a control freak.`
`14:35.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev Ressy (~resa1983@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Ressy)`
`14:40.26`	`karl_w_w`	`best pain killer = sleeping tablets`
`14:40.36`	`Dagmar`	`Take half a dose of all three. Tylenol, Aspirin, Acetominophen.`
`14:40.39`	`karl_w_w`	`50 of them!`
`14:40.42`	`Dagmar`	`No loopies. No pain.`
`14:40.49`	`karl_w_w`	`too extreme?`
`14:40.49`	`Dagmar`	`Do not bite your tongue off.`
`14:41.16`	`Dagmar`	`I've gotten through massive 2nd degree sunburns with that cocktail`
`14:41.20`	`Amarande`	`rofl, nvidia`
`14:41.35`	`Amarande`	`"Gear up with a GeForce GTX 650 based card, get Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn for free!"`
`14:41.35`	`karl_w_w`	`silly sunburn people`
`14:41.49`	`Amarande`	`... a GTX 650 doesn't quite meet recommended spec for that, nvidia, sure you want to promote your cards that way? :\|`
`14:41.52`	`Dagmar`	`Don't blame me. Blame the rednecks for living so high in the damn mountains.`
`14:42.17`	`karl_w_w`	`excuses`
`14:42.48`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Tylenol and Acetominophen are the same thing. And I am not allowed to take NSAIDS so no asprin for me.`
`14:42.59`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: The minimum is an 8800. From 660 to 650 it's probably a matter of "turn off bloom and FXAA"`
`14:43.03`	`karl_w_w`	`there's this thing called sunscreen, works amazing!`
`14:43.16`	`Amarande`	`heh`
`14:43.26`	`Amarande`	`meanwhile I'm still trying to figure out why their nVidia and AMD recommended specs are not quite equivalent`
`14:43.35`	`Dagmar`	`karl_w_w: Hey man I went through years of exposure in Band Camp wihtout doing anything more than just turning latino. I don't need sunscreen`
`14:43.36`	`Amarande`	`"nVidia GTX 660 or AMD Radeon 7950"`
`14:43.47`	`Amarande`	`according to benchmarks, the 660 is more like the 7850 than the 7950`
`14:44.35`	`Dagmar`	`Lopeppeppy: Sorry. I don't even look at the labels anymore. Acetominophen, ibuprofen,`
`14:44.41`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: thankfully Obamacare is here for when you get skin cancer years down the road :S`
`14:44.54`	`karl_w_w`	`if that's true how did you have 2nd degree sunburn`
`14:45.00`	`Amarande`	`And for when you OD on acetaminophen and need to get an antidote stat so you don't need a liver transplant. :\|`
`14:45.02`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: I'll settle for staying the hell out of the mountains of South Carolina actually`
`14:45.04`	`karl_w_w`	`thanks obama`
`14:45.04`	`Dagmar`	`Also... goth.`
`14:45.10`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Yeah - I'm down to just tylenol or the prescription stuff, so I pickle my liver.`
`14:45.39`	`Amarande`	`I usually swear by ibuprofen myself, on the rare occasions I stoop to taking a pain reliever`
`14:45.39`	`Dagmar`	`Anything OTC is something you can take 3x-4x the recommended dose and have no ill effects, so long as you don't _keep_ doing it`
`14:45.54`	`Dagmar`	`Half a dose of all three of those doesn't have any major issues`
`14:46.13`	`Dagmar`	`It's just generally people don't need to have that much painkiller unless they've been shot or cooked medium rare`
`14:46.21`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: acetaminophen gets to danger level quite quickly apparently`
`14:46.39`	`Amarande`	`and crap, I think I need a new coffee maker`
`14:46.44`	`Dagmar`	`If you eat them like Mike 'n' Ikes, yes`
`14:47.32`	`Fisker`	`hey Lopeppeppy I got blue tea`
`14:47.35`	`Amarande`	`I went to make my sis and I a coffee this morning on the one-or-two-cup straight into the mug coffee maker`
`14:47.36`	`Fisker`	`what do`
`14:47.39`	`karl_w_w`	`ibuprofen is the worst`
`14:47.45`	`karl_w_w`	`absolute worst`
`14:47.48`	`Amarande`	`there was a TON of water on the counter after I poured it in, and we ended up with only about half a mug of coffee each`
`14:47.53`	`Amarande`	`I wager the thing's sprung a leak :\|`
`14:47.59`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: So run the water through twice`
`14:48.02`	`karl_w_w`	`you're better off with paracetomol and codiene tablets`
`14:48.19`	`Dagmar`	`I prefer to be able to pilot my miniaturized death machine`
`14:50.12`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`14:53.32`	`Amarande`	`hm. is there some sort of catch to this particular 770 or is it just a really good deal? ...`
`14:53.33`	`Amarande`	`http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CZ7Q028/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER`
`14:53.59`	`karl_w_w`	`i have never heard of pny before`
`14:54.07`	`karl_w_w`	`which is probably the catch`
`14:54.08`	`Amarande`	`it's like, $50-100 cheaper than practically all the other 770s, many places are selling 760s for the same price :P`
`14:54.09`	`Dagmar`	`How's the weather under that rock`
`14:54.26`	`Amarande`	`karl: PNY's more famous for RAM ... they do make video cards, but most of the ones I've seen in the past were high end Quadros`
`14:54.31`	`Amarande`	`that's probably why you've not heard of them :)`
`14:54.33`	`Dagmar`	`PNY's a mid-sized vendor that usually sticks with selling RAM to BestBuy and CompUSA (before they failed)`
`14:54.57`	`Amarande`	`and speaking of Best Buy, their best deal on a 770 looks to be about 379ish`
`14:55.26`	`Dagmar`	`Their video cards are usually cheap becuase they're kinda conservative there`
`14:56.43`	`Amarande`	`Yeah, you don't hear as much about them as, say, EVGA ... though EVGA seems like they get away with charging a $100-200 premium on brand :P`
`14:56.46`	`Amarande`	`kinda like Sony, heh`
`14:57.17`	`Amarande`	`Also, is the 780 worth it at all vs. the 770, or is the top end card always a ripoff? :)`
`14:57.38`	`Amarande`	`What I see regarding the 780 is that for the cost of a 780, I could get a 770 AND upgrade to Haswell i5-K with a Z board for OCing`
`14:58.11`	`karl_w_w`	`evga are overpriced`
`14:58.25`	`karl_w_w`	`almost never worth buying them unless you're a millionaire`
`14:59.52`	`Dagmar`	`It's sad because they used to be a good "value" vendor`
`14:59.57`	`karl_w_w`	`I'm a big gigabyte fan lately`
`15:02.27`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Fisker, you should drink your tea, because I cannot.`
`15:03.16`	`Fisker`	`you could if you would`
`15:27.14`	`Lopeppeppy`	`But I can't so I shan't. That's logic.`
`15:27.36`	`*** join/#wowuidev Unkle (~mconverse@50-0-113-124.dedicated.static.sonic.net)`
`15:51.03`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`16:05.41`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hazal (~Mikkel@0x5e910d43.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`16:16.41`	`TC-Work`	`karl_w_w: I always buy EVGA gfx cards.`
`16:17.32`	`karl_w_w`	`well look at you big spender! :P`
`16:17.54`	`TC-Work`	`In my book they have reliability`
`16:18.07`	`TC-Work`	`their mobo's on the other had are shite.`
`16:18.33`	`TC-Work`	`hand*`
`16:34.18`	`Lopeppeppy`	`I continue to amaze the Grand Uncle Boss with how good I am at mining the Google for "image description" + "creative commons".`
`16:35.45`	`Workfoz`	`much google, very cc`
`16:36.49`	`*** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (~Cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel)`
`16:43.34`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kaylin (~Kaylin@75-172-99-28.tukw.qwest.net)`
`16:51.10`	`TC-Work`	`~lart Workfoz`
`16:51.10`	`purl`	`throws Workfoz's poor little doggy off a cliff`
`16:51.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`16:56.02`	`TC-Work`	`Todays TeeFury is pure childhood rape. I approve.`
`17:01.49`	`Fisker`	`I fell asleep Lopeppeppy :(`
`17:12.33`	`Lopeppeppy`	`Naps are good for you.`
`17:13.01`	`kd3`	`heh; https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/431542929992077312`
`17:17.22`	`Fisker`	`no :(`
`17:18.00`	`*** join/#wowuidev Kaylin (~Kaylin@75-172-99-28.tukw.qwest.net)`
`17:18.24`	`*** join/#wowuidev Dewin (~Daniel@c-67-160-127-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)`
`17:21.00`	`Dagmar`	`Naps are _important_`
`17:21.08`	`TC-Work`	`yes Fisker, yeeeeeeessssssss`
`17:21.13`	`Fisker`	`nope`
`17:21.14`	`*** join/#wowuidev MentalPower\|Work (~MentalPow@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower)`
`17:21.14`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower\|Work] by ChanServ`
`17:21.59`	`Neffi`	`karl_w_w: EVGA really isn't more expensive if you buy the base model`
`17:22.16`	`Neffi`	`Maybe $10 more than the cheapest base model usually, and for that $10 you get a better warranty`
`17:23.02`	`Neffi`	`But they give you the option to be binned cards, so if you want to push the highest overclock possible, you spend $20 more and get a card that's binned to overclock better. Or if you're a big spender, you spend $40 more for the custom designed card with overengineered power delivery.`
`17:23.29`	`Neffi`	`buy binned cards, rather*`
`17:24.15`	`Neffi`	`Companies like PNY and Zotac sometimes offer nice deals, but if you're spending hundreds on a piece of hardware, don't you want top-tier warranty and customer support?`
`17:25.04`	`Neffi`	`IMO the extra $10-20 is well spent`
`17:25.07`	`nevcairiel`	`I prefer EVGA for that, however when i'm buying reference designs, i might choose s omething else if EVGA is out of stock or something`
`17:25.37`	`Neffi`	`Yeah, if you're going base model you're getting an OEMed, branded card anyway. So you're buying solely for customer service`
`17:26.31`	`Dagmar`	`Well, sometimes you're getting one with an HDMI output`
`17:26.49`	`Neffi`	`HDMI out isn't standard on every single video card made in the last half decade?`
`17:26.59`	`Neffi`	`(Unless you buy one of the fancy ones with 6 DP outputs instead)`
`17:27.01`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se)`
`17:27.02`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`17:27.05`	`Dagmar`	`Not particularly. The specific output type seems to be left up to the OEMs`
`17:27.22`	`Neffi`	`I've never actually seen a modern card without HDMI.`
`17:27.35`	`nevcairiel`	`most cards have one now`
`17:28.00`	`nevcairiel`	`but i wouldnt say all`
`17:28.08`	`Dagmar`	`My 550 Ti just has VGA and DVI`
`17:28.18`	`Dagmar`	`Well, VGA because of an adapter`
`17:28.21`	`Neffi`	`Surprising`
`17:28.29`	`nevcairiel`	`we were talking about modern cards`
`17:28.34`	`Dagmar`	`I don't have any monitors with HDMI so there's little point`
`17:28.38`	`Neffi`	`I wonder if the DVI is wired to output an HDMI(+audio) signal with an adapter`
`17:28.56`	`nevcairiel`	`DVI and HDMI use the same electric signal`
`17:28.59`	`Dagmar`	`It could be, but I've no desire to involve DRM for my damn monitor`
`17:29.09`	`nevcairiel`	`DVI does DRM :P`
`17:29.19`	`nevcairiel`	`HDCP is active over any digital connection these days`
`17:29.20`	`Dagmar`	`Yes but it's optional for DVI`
`17:29.26`	`Neffi`	`Yes nev, but the card has to be wired to support all the HDMI features, like audio and higher bandwidth`
`17:29.42`	`Dagmar`	`...plus i know my monitor doesn't do HDCP, as strange as that sounds.`
`17:30.05`	`Neffi`	`Which I believe just goes over the aux data channel, so I'd expect it to`
`17:30.32`	`*** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@121.99.128.227)`
`17:30.32`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ`
`17:30.34`	`Dagmar`	`The only fancy I need out of my monitors is EDID, and I'll replace them if they're giving hte wrong info`
`17:30.42`	`Dagmar`	`Life's too damn short to have to fuck with overriding that stuff`
`17:30.43`	`nevcairiel`	`Neffi: usually they support the full HDMI features over those adapters`
`17:30.59`	`bluspacecow`	`I see a Dagmar !`
`17:31.10`	`nevcairiel`	`at least NVIDIA, AMD is a bit weird when you have a card without HDMI`
`17:31.12`	`Neffi`	`If a monitor's giving the wrong EDID data, it might be worth replacing >_>`
`17:31.16`	`nevcairiel`	`they have a proprietary adapter`
`17:31.25`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: Probably because it's a Dell. ;)`
`17:31.25`	`Neffi`	`Even my shitty emachines monitor I got for free manages EDID`
`17:31.40`	`Neffi`	`But Dell monitors are good.. At least the good ones are.`
`17:31.46`	`Dagmar`	`Dell has a nasty tendency to put the same damn chip on multiple monitors`
`17:31.47`	`Neffi`	`The good ones are outright great`
`17:31.50`	`nevcairiel`	`good monitors are good?`
`17:31.58`	`Neffi`	`lol`
`17:31.58`	`nevcairiel`	`how surprising`
`17:32.08`	`Neffi`	`I mean Dell makes great monitors, but I've never used one of their cheap ones`
`17:32.10`	`Dagmar`	`...so they'll have a 17' and a 19' and a 21' that all claim to have the same physical size, which fucks up text`
`17:32.43`	`nevcairiel`	`my Dell screens report stuff fine, but i also wouldnt touch anything that small`
`17:33.31`	`Neffi`	`well, fancy you`
`17:33.40`	`nevcairiel`	`fancy me`
`17:33.42`	`Dagmar`	`My personal favorite is Dells that report refresh rates that they don't actually support properly.`
`17:34.04`	`Neffi`	`I'm still hoping to snag a Dell U2413 some day soon`
`17:34.05`	`Dagmar`	`The warning sign is when Dell actually has a "driver download" for the monitor`
`17:34.18`	`Neffi`	`Factory calibrated to sRGB and Adobe RGB almost perfectly`
`17:34.27`	`nevcairiel`	`I still hope for many more 4K screens to show up`
`17:34.43`	`Neffi`	`Dell's 4K IPS looks nice`
`17:34.50`	`nevcairiel`	`nah they are kinda bad`
`17:35.07`	`nevcairiel`	`if we're talking about the same screens, the cheap ones`
`17:35.11`	`Neffi`	`Heh. Didn't read any reviews. I wonder if tftcentral has done a writeup/test of it`
`17:35.20`	`Neffi`	`No, I'm talking the ~$1200 one`
`17:35.26`	`nevcairiel`	`that is cheap for 4k`
`17:35.37`	`Neffi`	`Fair enough`
`17:43.34`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`18:01.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev jleclanche (~adys@unaffiliated/adys)`
`18:04.36`	`Arrowmaster`	`Neffi: i dont trust dells cheap monitors anymore, i went with an asus proart pa248 the other year so i could get an sRGB 16:10`
`18:10.44`	`Kraps`	`does tidyplates show DoTs near the nameplate`
`18:10.54`	`Primer`	`yes`
`18:11.17`	`Kraps`	`thanks`
`18:11.49`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se)`
`18:11.50`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`18:13.10`	`Shirik`	`"A passenger aboard a commercial airline flight from Ukraine to Turkey tried to hijack it to Sochi, Russia, on Friday after the Winter Olympics had started there but the plane landed safely in Istanbul, Turkish news reports said."`
`18:13.50`	`mikma`	`failjack`
`18:22.38`	`Dagmar`	`Maybe he was just being polite.`
`18:23.07`	`Dagmar`	`Maybe he tried asking nicely, they declined, and so he just resumed his seat and waited to land at the normal destination.`
`18:27.13`	`Primer`	`Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ GALACTIC STARFIGHTER FREE-TO-PLAY ACCESS NOW OPEN!!!!`
`18:27.19`	`Primer`	`deletes email...`
`18:27.32`	`g0urra`	`lol swtor.`
`18:27.51`	`Primer`	`I wonder how long before that game just totally goes away`
`18:28.06`	`Primer`	`It's just got to be a big money sink for them at this point`
`18:28.09`	`g0urra`	`it won't as long as EA pumps stuff into it that'll make people play`
`18:28.29`	`g0urra`	`I think EA actually earns a whole lot of money from it at the moment`
`18:30.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-74-226-99-84.mem.bellsouth.net)`
`18:30.11`	`*** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ`
`18:30.34`	`Primer`	`How do you figure?`
`18:30.41`	`Primer`	`People left that game in droves`
`18:30.44`	`*** join/#wowuidev zoktar (~zoktar@unaffiliated/zoktar)`
`18:31.29`	`Trela`	`They actually fixed all the end game issues and went free to play.`
`18:32.28`	`Primer`	`Issues such as...?`
`18:32.34`	`Arrowmaster`	`http://i.imgur.com/JdGb89Q.jpg`
`18:32.44`	`Primer`	`I played that game from day one and did much of the initial end game`
`18:32.52`	`Trela`	`The entire lack of end game. :P`
`18:33.04`	`Primer`	`uhhh`
`18:33.09`	`Primer`	`Can you be more specific?`
`18:33.18`	`Primer`	`Because there were raids (ops)`
`18:33.34`	`Arrowmaster`	`so many mmos come out with zero end game, how do they expect to keep customers`
`18:33.42`	`Semlar`	`VIad: they should still be attaching to the original nameplate, so if you position your frame properly it shouldn't be too much of an issue`
`18:33.54`	`VIad`	`the problem was`
`18:33.57`	`VIad`	`when I reparent stuff`
`18:33.59`	`VIad`	`:P`
`18:34.04`	`VIad`	`so I fixed that by not doing that`
`18:34.07`	`Semlar`	`i don't reparent anything`
`18:34.09`	`VIad`	`yea`
`18:34.40`	`Semlar`	`granted i use more cpu than any other nameplate addon out there`
`18:34.41`	`VIad`	`it's nice that you can extrapolate health and cast time from the bars themselves :)`
`18:35.17`	`Semlar`	`you can't determine whether they're channeling or not until the second frame though`
`18:35.30`	`Semlar`	`and you need that to know the time left`
`18:35.59`	`Primer`	`OMG WTF`
`18:36.17`	`Primer`	`clicked on a the ESO beta giveaway thing in curse client and it fucking opened IE!`
`18:36.44`	`Semlar`	`those bastards`
`18:37.46`	`Primer`	`Torhal: please fix that, thanks`
`18:38.08`	`Arrowmaster`	`whats ESO's endgame`
`18:38.19`	`Primer`	`get some pussy`
`18:38.43`	`Semlar`	`so it's like super mario`
`18:39.06`	`Arrowmaster`	`good guy nintendo, no mario MMO`
`18:39.41`	`Neffi`	`You could ask what WoW's endgame was`
`18:40.02`	`Arrowmaster`	`UBRS`
`18:40.09`	`Neffi`	`lol, good answer`
`18:40.17`	`Neffi`	`TES has a bigger following than Warcraft did at the time`
`18:40.22`	`*** join/#wowuidev A-KO^^ (~A-KO@unaffiliated/a-ko)`
`18:41.38`	`Arrowmaster`	`mmos dont have the luxury of refining the end game after release like wow did though`
`18:41.57`	`Arrowmaster`	`if it doesnt exist and isnt good a few weeks after release then the game is as good as dead`
`18:44.30`	`Primer`	`Not enough disk space. Please clear up 30GB and try again`
`18:44.50`	`Primer`	`I need another SSD`
`18:45.09`	`TC-Work`	`There was a ~500GB SSD for ~$2xx or so`
`18:45.11`	`Primer`	`heh, it doesn't give me the option to install it elsewhere`
`18:47.59`	`Neffi`	`Arrowmaster: It's set to have dungeons, with heroic-like tiers, and a point system for buying gear, I think`
`18:48.08`	`Neffi`	`I dont know how much of it is implemented at launch`
`18:49.30`	`Dagmar`	`Primer: TESO?`
`18:49.49`	`Dagmar`	`Free up _60_ Gb.`
`18:50.09`	`Neffi`	`Dagmar: That issue has been fixed`
`18:50.14`	`Neffi`	`My install was a breeze`
`18:50.16`	`Primer`	`I had to re-run the installer so it'd use my other drive`
`18:50.22`	`Dagmar`	`Really, because I was told it was fixed for the last one`
`18:50.34`	`Primer`	`since I don't have 30G available on my SSD`
`18:50.38`	`Dagmar`	`...and still the fucker did three loops of download, fail, delete, download as I slept`
`18:50.44`	`Neffi`	`Isolated issue in a test release that you won't let go`
`18:51.24`	`Primer`	`I really love my ISP`
`18:51.34`	`Dagmar`	`UNpredictable failure state with evil bandwidth-wasting results`
`18:51.36`	`Primer`	`getting 7MB/s on this download`
`18:51.57`	`Dagmar`	`Test before last, things worked fine for me while I chuckled at people having it redownload`
`18:52.14`	`Dagmar`	`THe last test, I didn't see much on the forums, but burned ~100Gb of quota`
`18:53.04`	`Neffi`	`Want an apology before you stop bashing a company for an issue that occured for the minority of users on a testing reelase?`
`18:53.14`	`Dagmar`	`I am not _bashing_.`
`18:53.26`	`Phelps`	`I get a whole 250GB per month on a 25mbit/s connection`
`18:53.36`	`Phelps`	`I could use my entire quote in 2 days :\|`
`18:53.44`	`Neffi`	`You've told me a few times that the game sucks and I shouldn't bother, and the only reason you cited was the download issue`
`18:53.47`	`Phelps`	`I hate my ISP`
`18:54.06`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: NOpe. I said they were apparently challenging Zenimax for biggest launch fail`
`18:54.21`	`Neffi`	`Wait, what?`
`18:54.27`	`Dagmar`	`It doesn't "suck". It's just still in a cruder state than I'd expect at this point`
`18:55.03`	`*** join/#wowuidev Amarande (Amarande@24-151-100-63.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com)`
`18:55.08`	`Neffi`	`Yeah, I dont want to break NDA or anything, but there's a few things that I expect to be improved prelaunch`
`18:55.24`	`Neffi`	`But the 30 min I played so far, it has potential`
`18:55.53`	`Dagmar`	`I would rather it succeed because we're highly unlikely to see them try it again without waiting a decade`
`18:56.07`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se)`
`18:56.07`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`18:56.07`	`Amarande`	`what's this?`
`18:56.24`	`Neffi`	`I want it to succeed because I fucking love the franchise. But I'm glad it's an offshoot, and the single player titles will continue no matter what`
`18:56.29`	`Neffi`	`Amarande: Elder Scrolls Online`
`18:57.19`	`jleclanche`	`"Big Red Button is developing the next Sonic game. It uses Cryengine 3 and will be on Wii U and 3DS"`
`18:57.21`	`Neffi`	`fuck, wayyy too much cayenne pepper in my yellow rice >_>`
`18:57.29`	`jleclanche`	`cryengine 3 on the wii u and 3ds`
`18:57.40`	`Neffi`	`CryEngine 3 runs on Wii U?`
`18:57.49`	`jleclanche`	`anyone ever feel like you wake up, and the world is not quite right?`
`18:58.05`	`jleclanche`	`like you're in a parallel universe where m&ms are brown & purple.`
`18:58.14`	`Neffi`	`Probably using CE3 for publicity, but ain't hitting the engine with too many effects to keep it tolerable on that hardware`
`18:58.15`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: MMOs get tried year in, year out`
`18:59.11`	`Amarande`	`One (do I need to say which? LOL) succeeded beyond all expectations, others became second-tier businesses like Eve, LOTRO, or SW:TOR, some are old greats like EQ, others become pay-to-win bald-faced money grab pieces of crap, and some go under. :)`
`19:00.03`	`Gnarfoz`	`jleclanche: sure, everytime certain people in here go on rants :P`
`19:00.17`	`Amarande`	`jleclanche: the turkey's a little dry? :)`
`19:00.52`	`Amarande`	`(wait, you wouldn't get that one unless you watched the simpsons a lot, heh)`
`19:01.05`	`jleclanche`	`i watched the simpsons a lot and i didnt get it`
`19:01.16`	`jleclanche`	`i think what you mean is "you wouldn't get that one unless you remember that specific episode"`
`19:01.18`	`Amarande`	`jleclanche: it's from that one episode, I think it may have been a treehouse of horror piece`
`19:01.34`	`Amarande`	`where Homer ends up in this parallel universe of sorts where at first it seems like everything in the world is perfect`
`19:01.40`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: this isnt a rant, but it does make it feel like derren brown is on the £10 bill.`
`19:01.50`	`Dagmar`	`I would not call EQ an "old great".`
`19:01.52`	`Amarande`	`then he starts rattling off a description of this sandwich he's eating, and then he gets to "... the turkey's a little dry ..."`
`19:02.04`	`Amarande`	`and then there's that unmistakable "uh oh" moment :)`
`19:02.06`	`jleclanche`	`Amarande: i dont remember that one`
`19:02.16`	`Dagmar`	`Any game where sadism towards players figures into the mechanics so prominently isn't what I'd call "great". I'd call it "the only thing at the time".`
`19:02.36`	`Arrowmaster`	`Amarande: no thats when i gets the monkey paw and uses the last wish for something that cant go wrong`
`19:02.42`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: WoW probably isn't great either, then :)`
`19:02.47`	`Arrowmaster`	`a sandwich but the turkey is a little dry`
`19:03.03`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: Did you play EQ?`
`19:03.17`	`Dagmar`	`I could easily list off a half dozen really blackhearted things EQ did`
`19:03.25`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: I tried it for about a half hour once, unfortunately it was way back in the dialup days, so I gave up because it was too damn laggy before I could find out anything else about it really`
`19:03.57`	`*** join/#wowuidev cogwheel1 (~Cogwheel@38.99.42.242)`
`19:04.18`	`Amarande`	`after that I stuck to Diablo 2 till Guild Wars came out heh`
`19:04.36`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: Well, one of the more entertaining things was their application of the nerf bat. Warriors complained that wizard could almost one-shot them, which by the way the classes were set up is fairly reasonable for a glass-cannon in a bathrobe. But they whined so much wizards got the nerfbat... until s warrior would have to be both naked and AFK to lose a duel against a wizard.`
`19:05.00`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: doesn't sound all that off base from the way PvP balance is handled at times in WoW`
`19:05.04`	`Amarande`	`remember warlocks in TBC?`
`19:05.30`	`Dagmar`	`These nerfs also applied to their DD in oombat.`
`19:05.32`	`Amarande`	`by the end of the expansion they'd been nerfed so hard, and other classes had got so many buffs in the meanwhile, that literally to bring a warlock to 5's was asking to lose from the get go :p`
`19:05.54`	`Amarande`	`oombat ... lemme guess, wizards went through mana at a pace that made arcane mages in WoW seem sedate? :)`
`19:05.56`	`Neffi`	`<Amarande> remember warlocks in TBC? <- frequently in my nightmares`
`19:06.29`	`Neffi`	`"You want to PvP? You'd better go SL/SL and learn to love mana draining as a gameplay style"`
`19:06.32`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: I am not kidding about the naked and AFK thing`
`19:06.32`	`*** join/#wowuidev \|Jelly\| (~\|Jelly\|@c-24-4-224-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`19:06.47`	`Dagmar`	`A warrior could chop a wizard in half in about two to three hits. NO criticals needed`
`19:07.08`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: by 2.3, even that wasn't enough`
`19:07.22`	`Amarande`	`... and of course, I had the extreme misfortune to first hit 70 ... as a warlock ... during 2.3`
`19:07.23`	`Dagmar`	`Couple this with the nerfs to DD, plus the wizard class had it's own special "super-taunt" mechanic, by which I mean you could cast four times and literally be _guaranteed_ to get aggro...`
`19:07.43`	`Neffi`	`I know. Warlock was my main for much of BC. Until I gave up and went rogue.`
`19:07.51`	`Dagmar`	`Wizards were so wholly unwelcome in groups that they comprised less than 2% of the player base before management would even acknowledge there was a problem`
`19:07.57`	`Amarande`	`and I find I'm stuck on the wrong side of the gear vicious circle. you can't even get into kara unless you've got heroic gear. you can't get into a group for heroics unless you've got AT LEAST kara gear OTOH (and they usually wanted T5+, by that point) ...`
`19:08.04`	`Neffi`	`They were a blast to level back then. Got to 70 and their gameplay in PvP was boring and sucky.`
`19:08.26`	`Amarande`	`Some folks recommended I use PvP as a way to get a leg up on gear ... and then I realise that PvP isn't going to happen EITHER thanks to those mechanics`
`19:08.39`	`Dagmar`	`I could literally stand in an open field with my wizard and stop trains by using the "pulling stick", which cast a little debuff. Click six times and the "whatever" would come after me`
`19:08.50`	`Amarande`	`(especially since as icing on the cake, I was Horde on Stormstrike battlegroup, which meant the main source of honour in WoW at that point - AV - was nigh impossible to get into a game of)`
`19:08.59`	`Dagmar`	`Now imagine raiding if as a ranged DPSer there was about a 20% chance that with each spell you cast, you'd get aggro and the boss would run out of position.`
`19:09.34`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: could be worse, that could be raiding as a melee DPSer`
`19:09.45`	`Amarande`	`Enhancement shamans in TBC apparently walked that razor wire constantly`
`19:09.56`	`Dagmar`	`Yes but that's still based on damage.`
`19:10.11`	`Dagmar`	`It's not Blizzard's fault that so many nitwits think their job is to mash all the buttons as fast as they can`
`19:10.26`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: to some extent it is, heh`
`19:10.31`	`bluspacecow`	`lol reports of WoD being delayed`
`19:10.33`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@aftr-88-217-180-68.dynamic.mnet-online.de)`
`19:10.34`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@unaffiliated/yoshimo)`
`19:10.34`	`Dagmar`	`The super-taunt thing was strictly a percentage chance. No matter how much damage anyone else had done`
`19:10.39`	`Amarande`	`mostly due to their love for short enrage timers (which were especially noticeable in TBC, apparently)`
`19:10.49`	`bluspacecow`	`obviously didn't listen to the same conference call I did`
`19:10.50`	`Gnarfoz`	`bluspacecow: how can something without a release date be delayed`
`19:10.59`	`Neffi`	`bluspacecow: what's that?`
`19:11.18`	`Primer`	`He just violated his NDA!`
`19:11.20`	`Amarande`	`Gnarfoz: how can something with a scheduled delivery date never be late? :)`
`19:11.23`	`bluspacecow`	`they took a pargraph Dennis Durkin said about most of their major releases being in the back half of the year`
`19:11.40`	`Gnarfoz`	`who's Dennis Durkin`
`19:12.04`	`bluspacecow`	`......... after discussing them bringing out Call of Duty online and heroes of the storm later in the year`
`19:12.15`	`bluspacecow`	`its obvious the "them" hes talking of is Activision Blizzard`
`19:12.15`	`Amarande`	`yet, that's how FedEx Smartpost works. It's never 'late', if it doesn't make it on the day they say, they just bump back the 'delivery date' and say it's still on time LOL`
`19:12.24`	`bluspacecow`	`IE both activision and blizzard products`
`19:12.31`	`Amarande`	`Call of Duty online?`
`19:12.34`	`bluspacecow`	`@Gnarfoz AB's chief financial officer`
`19:12.34`	`Amarande`	`oh dear gods`
`19:12.37`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: So the real lulsy bits were when they released their Luclin expansion. They'd made wizards incapable of getting groups because they were a huge liability, and now an entire continent's worth of content you could not solo. This while most wizards made the last few levels to that level range quad-kiting, which the devs were all "Well, at least they can quad-kite" about.`
`19:12.39`	`bluspacecow`	`their numbers guy`
`19:12.43`	`Gnarfoz`	`EU WoW itself and TBC were released in the early parts of the year shrug`
`19:12.45`	`Dagmar`	`THen the same shit (basically) happened to druids.`
`19:12.46`	`Amarande`	`PRAYS that's not the "secret MMO project" Blizzard has been speaking of for years :(`
`19:12.57`	`Amarande`	`if it's Call of Duty Online, I think I'll have just lost faith in Blizz :\|`
`19:12.59`	`Dagmar`	`So, two out of ten classes whose sole utility amounted to being a fuckin' taxi.`
`19:13.08`	`bluspacecow`	`cough`
`19:13.11`	`Gnarfoz`	`it's not like 5 releases is a sane number to base statistics on`
`19:13.18`	`Neffi`	`You heard it here first, folks`
`19:13.19`	`bluspacecow`	`That's an Activision product Amarande`
`19:13.25`	`Dagmar`	`EQ was lucky I didn't teleport more people into the Plane of Fear`
`19:13.47`	`bluspacecow`	`"Activsion Blizzard"`
`19:14.00`	`Neffi`	`lol I just got my email remidner that ESO beta starts tomorrow at noon. It started 2 hours ago`
`19:14.09`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: Lands of Bejeweled`
`19:14.14`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: and yet people will go on like "It's a GOOD thing for MMOs to force people to group! That's what Massively Multiplayer is all about!"`
`19:14.39`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: I would have been fine with that, were it possible to get a group without hiring a handful of asian kids to go with you`
`19:14.40`	`Neffi`	`Amarande: r u srs rite nao`
`19:14.44`	`Amarande`	`despite the fact that the wheels obviously have turned to the idea that mostly-solo is the better way to do it, as shown by pretty much every even second-tier successful MMO at the moment`
`19:14.58`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: This wasn't a 5% disparity in DPS. It was more like thirty.`
`19:14.59`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: yeah, that's the precise problem with MMOs that force grouping`
`19:15.09`	`Amarande`	`it tends to make a whole bunch of classes be basically "don't play this or else"`
`19:15.13`	`Amarande`	`FF11 apparently suffered from the same lousiness`
`19:15.29`	`Neffi`	`Players will take the path of least resistance. That doesn't mean that's good game design, Amarande`
`19:15.34`	`Dagmar`	`SO, if the glass cannon can't do sustained damage, and can't even do burst damage without it being suicide, I mean, how many verses does the fat lady really have to sing?`
`19:15.35`	`Amarande`	`(And BTW, Lands of Bejeweled would have to come from Bioware or Mythic ... Bejeweled is EA, after all :)`
`19:16.32`	`Dagmar`	`Another one of the "fuck you players" IIRC was that mobs had a chance to resist druid dots on each tick`
`19:16.41`	`Dagmar`	`...and no damage adjustments were made to compensate.`
`19:16.55`	`Dagmar`	`...where previously it would either stick or not.`
`19:17.08`	`Amarande`	`Stuff sometimes broke early in WoW too, especially CC`
`19:17.17`	`Amarande`	`especially back before they changed things so that miss-chance could drop to 0`
`19:17.31`	`Dagmar`	`Yeah but they worked with it a bit to make it reasonable`
`19:17.44`	`Amarande`	`in TBC you always had to worry about your CC ending early, apparently (probably because no matter what there was at least a 1% chance of a "resist" every tick, since 99% was hitcap)`
`19:17.49`	`Dagmar`	`Most of EQs decisions were about as smart as whatever fucking moron decided to raise the base miss chance for pokemon because people were leveling too quickly`
`19:18.19`	`Dagmar`	`Considering that at the time Druids were also stuck in the "have to quad kite to make these ten levels" a dot breaking early meant you were just fucking dead.`
`19:18.32`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: the problem is that when you make a game that forces people to group, you KNOW players will take the path of least resistance, or you SHOULD know`
`19:18.44`	`Dagmar`	`Some people were jealous of quad-kiters until you made it clear to them why they "always" saw people gracefully kiting a small pile of mobs in circles.`
`19:18.50`	`Amarande`	`which means you should also know that if a class isn't going to be "the optimal choice" for groups, you're basically making a class that's no good`
`19:18.54`	`Dagmar`	`If you fucked up, you were now "the naked guy running through East Karanas"`
`19:19.00`	`Amarande`	`if you make the game solo friendly, the stakes are much lower`
`19:19.00`	`Neffi`	`Amarande: So you don't give them a path of less resistance than what you want them to do`
`19:19.27`	`Amarande`	`and most of the time, they don't balance the classes well enough`
`19:19.32`	`Dagmar`	`You never saw "bad" quad kiters because thsoe episodes of fail lasted about four seconds flat.`
`19:19.34`	`Amarande`	`like in EQ, apparently, and also FF11 was rife with it`
`19:19.49`	`Dagmar`	`...and if you did it enough, you deleveled until you couldn't even hope to pull it off.`
`19:19.51`	`Neffi`	`Class balance has never really been as bad as the pundits in the community like to say`
`19:19.58`	`Amarande`	`if you weren't one of the best job/subjob combos, you didn't get a PT. if you didn't get a PT, unless you were a Summoner or Beastmaster, you basically didn't do ANYTHING.`
`19:20.12`	`Neffi`	`The WoW community is very much like Fox. It's a bunch of sensationalist pundits spouting hyperbole like fact.`
`19:20.15`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: Truth. Class balance for WoW has been pretty damn reasonable, with devs actually admitting when there's differences`
`19:20.32`	`Neffi`	`I'd say it's on the better end of the spectrum of all MMOs, Dagmar`
`19:20.36`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: also, though, WoW is a highly soloable game except for instances, for the most part`
`19:20.55`	`Dagmar`	`Verant? More like the DPRK making press releases they just had a successful mission to explore the surface of the fucking sun`
`19:20.58`	`Amarande`	`sure, it might sting a bit if (class) isn't really the in-thing for good groups right now`
`19:21.04`	`Amarande`	`but you've still got plenty to do`
`19:21.13`	`Dagmar`	`Yes. You can still solo at least.`
`19:21.37`	`Amarande`	`in FF11, on the other hand, if you couldn't get a PT, there was precious anything worth actually fighting that you could solo, so if you weren't the right job/subjob type and/or weren't twinked to the max each level ... you got to sit and fish, heh`
`19:21.38`	`Dagmar`	`...and gather and craft and stuff like that`
`19:21.48`	`Amarande`	`(and pray that nobody accused you of "illegal fishing" if you made too much off of that. :P)`
`19:22.04`	`Dagmar`	`Hey if they didn't want illegal fishing they shoudl't have made fish affected by TNT`
`19:22.23`	`Amarande`	`Square tags more people for illegal fishing than the US fishing authorities do :P`
`19:23.59`	`Amarande`	`okay, will someone explain to me just why graphics drivers NEED to be 200 MB`
`19:24.11`	`Dagmar`	`Omgoptimization profiles`
`19:24.18`	`Dagmar`	`Also, shitloads of extra features.`
`19:24.47`	`Dagmar`	`Support for every fucking thing nVidia has made in the last eight years, including the handheld device, and VR displays`
`19:25.06`	`Amarande`	`Heh, AMD's drivers aren't much smaller, either, Dagmar. And they only support the last 3 generations, unlike nVidia.`
`19:25.07`	`Dagmar`	`One motherfucker of a download to rule them all.`
`19:26.15`	`Amarande`	`And apparently FF11 was picky enough that racials mattered, too`
`19:26.23`	`Dagmar`	`Darn racists`
`19:26.27`	`Amarande`	`You wanted to be a caster? Get used to playing one of those stupid looking monkey guys :P`
`19:26.39`	`Amarande`	`Because, we're sorry, but the other races just aren't as OMGOPTIMISED`
`19:26.56`	`Amarande`	`actually, maybe the problem there wasn't even so much class balance as death penalties`
`19:27.00`	`Dagmar`	`Could be worse tho`
`19:27.07`	`Dagmar`	`EQ high elven racial: Gay armor`
`19:27.22`	`Amarande`	`Games like WoW and LOTRO and SW:TOR make it a lot more reasonable to take a gamble on a person who isn't absolutely perfect`
`19:27.31`	`Dagmar`	`<Wizard> Wait... you mean I can wear PLATEMAIL?`
`19:27.38`	`Dagmar`	`<EQ> yes, but it has to be powder blue.`
`19:27.50`	`Dagmar`	`* Wizard has quit the fuckin' game.`
`19:27.51`	`Amarande`	`From what I understand OTOH in games like EQ and FF11, is that you lost XP when you died`
`19:27.55`	`kd3`	`thinks back to AQ gear`
`19:28.01`	`Amarande`	`on top of that, the advancement was piss slow, like slogging through the 80s and 90s in Diablo 2`
`19:28.15`	`Amarande`	`and unlike Diablo 2, apparently the XP loss on death could level you DOWN`
`19:28.28`	`nevcairiel`	`they should've done that in diablo`
`19:28.29`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: yes. Thanks to some serious painkillers, I lost a level and a half at 54 (down to 52) when I had my last knee surgery`
`19:28.29`	`Amarande`	`no wonder people become elitist about group invites under such circumstances :\|`
`19:28.33`	`Dagmar`	`It only took me four days`
`19:28.52`	`Dagmar`	`I'm just surprised someone from my guild could generally find out where the fuck I was when I died so I could get my gear back`
`19:28.59`	`karl_w_w`	`diablo 2 is a horrible game, it's taken me a while to come to that conclusion`
`19:29.09`	`Amarande`	`nevcairiel, you might as well have made Hardcore the only game mode if you did that`
`19:29.12`	`Dagmar`	`I was told at one point there were people near a camp having a grand old time using me as a puller.`
`19:29.24`	`Dagmar`	`They just had to get the thing off me and heal me back up as I endlessly ran into a wall`
`19:29.43`	`nevcairiel`	`karl_w_w: if consuming hours and hours of your live is a symptom for horrible, then sure`
`19:29.44`	`Dagmar`	`I was actually facedown on the keyboard`
`19:30.13`	`Dagmar`	`Invis tends to not last as long as percoset blackouts`
`19:30.16`	`karl_w_w`	`with pitiful payoff nevcairiel`
`19:30.36`	`Amarande`	`but yeah, on the one hand, some sort of penalty for death makes the challenge more real and all that`
`19:30.42`	`*** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (~Cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel)`
`19:30.53`	`karl_w_w`	`i like the part where people's characters die permanently because of lagf`
`19:30.54`	`Amarande`	`on the other hand, too much penalty for death, and you discourage players from taking chances, which leads to fun things like playing it safe and being as elitist as possible with grouping`
`19:31.00`	`nevcairiel`	`i hated how you had to run back there naked and potentially died again though`
`19:31.29`	`Amarande`	`(then again, you also encourage players to be as fastidious and OCD about preparing for stuff, which probably leads to longer subscription terms, heh)`
`19:31.56`	`nevcairiel`	`gotta have some penalty for dying, or people use it as a tactic too often`
`19:32.02`	`Amarande`	`on the other hand, sometimes the challenge can stand alone even with basically no penalty for dying`
`19:32.03`	`Amarande`	`viz. LOTRO`
`19:32.24`	`Amarande`	`which steadily ratcheted back their death penalties until I think now the ONLY things are being punted back to the retreat ring and taking a gear durability hit`
`19:33.00`	`Amarande`	`though really the only other penalty was the Dread, which was removed for a very rational reason`
`19:33.17`	`Amarande`	`Imagine if WoW gave rez sickness every time you died, rather than just when you used a spirit healer`
`19:33.18`	`Dagmar`	`I know what could help WoW. :)`
`19:33.23`	`Dagmar`	`XP loss on death.`
`19:33.24`	`karl_w_w`	`games are best when the penalty for dying is being sent back to the previous checkpoint :P`
`19:33.32`	`Amarande`	`That's basically what LOTRO's dread on defeat was like, except that it was milder than rez sickness`
`19:33.34`	`Dagmar`	`...but only if you've recently been kicked from a group for being a dick.`
`19:33.37`	`Neffi`	`Dagmar: Wasn't that the original plan in early alpha?`
`19:33.53`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: XP loss on death would be brutality itself`
`19:33.54`	`Dagmar`	`No they just used Xp "debt" for awhile`
`19:34.08`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: Yes, ,but it would be a way to get the dipshits out of the queues`
`19:34.10`	`Amarande`	`remember, once you hit 90, you stop gaining XP, so the only XP you have "past" 90 is a tiny little sliver`
`19:34.10`	`Neffi`	`Oh no, I think it was XP loss on using the spirit angel`
`19:34.28`	`Amarande`	`I can just imagine progression raiding then`
`19:34.29`	`Gnarfoz`	`those weren't even in in "early alpha"`
`19:34.43`	`Gnarfoz`	`(not sure what qualifies as that, bwt)`
`19:34.51`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: So long as you didn't get tossed from multiple groups for being a cocktard, no XP loss`
`19:34.52`	`Amarande`	`"oh, we wiped once ... time to go back to our banks to grab the level 89 gear since we can't use any of our current gear anymore & level back up again before we can try again"`
`19:34.54`	`Amarande`	`that would just be bad :)`
`19:34.55`	`Neffi`	`I started playing around 1.5 or 1.6, so I dont know the timeline before that`
`19:34.56`	`karl_w_w`	`what's the point in xp loss on death? so every time you wipe on a raid boss you have to grind a bit before you can try again?`
`19:35.13`	`Dagmar`	`karl_w_w: To keep the kiddies in the kiddie pool, mainly`
`19:35.13`	`Amarande`	`I still wonder how it works out with games like EQ and FF11 with raid progression`
`19:35.13`	`nevcairiel`	`doesnt make sense in raids`
`19:35.27`	`nevcairiel`	`could turn it off once you hit max level, or dont do it in dungeons/raids`
`19:35.42`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: more pragmatically, it's to make the journey to max level take longer so people stay subscribed longer`
`19:35.46`	`karl_w_w`	`dagmar there are 2 places people die: raids, and getting ganked`
`19:35.46`	`Neffi`	`If you want a strong deterrent, then a lockout on queueing that goes up exponentially as you get vote-kicked more often would work`
`19:35.50`	`Dagmar`	`...or you could be exempt to it by virtue of not being an assmunch.`
`19:35.55`	`karl_w_w`	`neither of those are a good idea for xp loss`
`19:36.07`	`Dagmar`	`karl_w_w: What good is a 15 minute timeout doing right now?`
`19:36.17`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: the problem is that oftentimes it's the assmunches who are DOING the vote kicking`
`19:36.26`	`Dagmar`	`...especially now with a four hour cooldown where they can be as big of a cocktard as they like?`
`19:36.29`	`karl_w_w`	`what 15 minute timeout`
`19:36.29`	`Neffi`	`I know, which is why this isn't an easy problem to solve`
`19:36.31`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se)`
`19:36.31`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`19:36.40`	`karl_w_w`	`oh you're talking about lfr`
`19:36.46`	`karl_w_w`	`what a waste of time`
`19:36.47`	`Dagmar`	`karl_w_w: The one that happens if you just bail from a group with no warning`
`19:36.49`	`karl_w_w`	`who talks about lfr`
`19:36.56`	`Amarande`	`plenty of cases where three or four friends from some tenth-rate guild get together in LFD and then they abuse the votekick after they start wiping like mad on easy dungeons and someone dares to suggest improvement in the game plan`
`19:37.17`	`Dagmar`	`Yeah and I figure turning on XP loss after one run in would be no good`
`19:37.22`	`Neffi`	`It seems to me like the more sane solution is that the player should expect assholes to exist in online games, and that the existence of assholes should encourage people to form meaningful relationships with their guild so they dont have to deal with them`
`19:37.31`	`karl_w_w`	`protips: lfr IS the kiddie pool`
`19:37.31`	`Neffi`	`Which is already how it works`
`19:37.34`	`Dagmar`	`It would probably need a stacking value and a decay rate`
`19:38.08`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: Yes, but the kiddie pool IRL has someone step in when kids take a crap in the pool.`
`19:38.18`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: the problem is that guilds with get-along-gang as their primary guild glue, in my experience, tend to run into trouble actually having enough people online at a time most of the time to field a group to begin with :(`
`19:38.33`	`Dagmar`	`Yep.`
`19:38.46`	`Dagmar`	`My peeps aren't hardcore raiders`
`19:38.56`	`Dagmar`	`..and we're scattered all over.`
`19:38.57`	`Amarande`	`like as a pretty extreme but real example ... the guild I belong to on Ysera`
`19:39.05`	`Neffi`	`They have enough to queue up and fill the empty slots with PuGs`
`19:39.09`	`Amarande`	`there's like 700+ characters, the vast majority of which are unique people, so think 400-500 actual people in guild`
`19:39.24`	`Amarande`	`AND WE STILL BARELY EVER EVEN HAVE FIVE PEOPLE ON AT THE SAME TIME`
`19:39.30`	`Neffi`	`Which allows them to be assholes to other, sure, but it gives you incentive to be on the guild-side of the run, not on the PuG-side`
`19:39.36`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: Yeah and we've actually had people come into that, spout racist/nazi slang, and begin chain-pulling.`
`19:39.58`	`Amarande`	`Mind you, that 700+ also includes folks like me who aren't even presently subscribed to WoW ... heh`
`19:40.10`	`*** join/#wowuidev AckityAckAck (8ee5539a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.229.83.154)`
`19:40.29`	`karl_w_w`	`my guild is all friends and we managed to go from the start of wotlk to garrosh without much issue`
`19:40.35`	`Amarande`	`That may be part of it too I suppose ... Booting someone out of a guild carries a certain level of gravitas that is kind of anathema to a friendly guild unless the person's really causing a severe disruption`
`19:40.36`	`Dagmar`	`So, since Blizzard won't be nice and just publish the names and addresses of these people... maybe some XP loss is in order for the few who actually _shit_ into the kiddie pool`
`19:40.39`	`Neffi`	`Dagmar: The most sane infrastructure to deal with that, IMO, is to suspend these people for their hate speech. Which WoW does`
`19:40.44`	`Neffi`	`Report more?`
`19:40.52`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: That was just one extreme example`
`19:40.53`	`Amarande`	`So a lot of large friendly guilds probably have barely any players who are actually active out of those hundreds :S`
`19:41.11`	`Dagmar`	`We've all seen groups just abusing people in the queue`
`19:41.36`	`Dagmar`	`Hell I've wwatched high levels be in a queue group at Blackrock standing there pulling the whole place and daring you to heal them`
`19:41.53`	`Amarande`	`And on top of that, the problem is that the "kiddie pool" often contains a number of the sort of players who don't really deserve a "don't suck" punishment`
`19:41.54`	`Dagmar`	`How they pulled it off, I neither know nor care, but it's definitely institutionalized dickery`
`19:41.59`	`Amarande`	`but get dragged down by others who possibly do`
`19:42.25`	`Amarande`	`like if you aren't a hardcore raider and you aren't in an active enough guild (which probably means hardcore enough, given the lax level of activity in so many friendly guilds)`
`19:42.36`	`Amarande`	`you're probably forced to rely on LFD/LFR for most of your game`
`19:42.58`	`Neffi`	`This all sort of goes with the territory of LFD/LFR in the first place`
`19:43.07`	`Amarande`	`should you be hit with an XP loss for that just because you get stuck with people who don't know one end of a Gyro-Balanced Khorium Destroyer from the other?`
`19:43.10`	`karl_w_w`	`this isn't an issue of friendly guilds OR hardcore guilds, it's an issue of leadership`
`19:43.10`	`Dagmar`	`So you're fine with an institutional ghetto then`
`19:43.31`	`karl_w_w`	`any guild will be active enough, if the leader organises it`
`19:43.44`	`Amarande`	`karl: well, generally speaking, demanding a high level of activity is usually associated with hardcoreness to some or other degree`
`19:43.47`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: What part of my suggestion has you obsessing over a singular event incurring XP loss`
`19:44.03`	`karl_w_w`	`it's not about demand`
`19:44.09`	`Amarande`	`and unless you DO have hundreds of people in your guild, you probably have to demand people be on several nights a week in order to have enough to run stuff regularly`
`19:44.13`	`karl_w_w`	`it's about getting people who will be active`
`19:44.29`	`Dagmar`	`I prefer to get people who are _people_`
`19:44.41`	`Dagmar`	`Folks who occasionally step out of the house for things.`
`19:44.59`	`karl_w_w`	`it's not hard to raid once a week under that condition`
`19:45.05`	`AckityAckAck`	`my irc client is being stupid :(`
`19:45.07`	`AckityAckAck`	`~lart Torhal`
`19:45.07`	`purl`	`DoSes Torhal`
`19:45.12`	`Dagmar`	`Actually, that's kind of a job`
`19:45.52`	`Amarande`	`karl: on top of that, not all players are office workers or students :)`
`19:45.52`	`karl_w_w`	`hence leadership`
`19:46.06`	`Dagmar`	`...and there' no reason LFR should have to be this place where dickbags can freely torment others`
`19:46.08`	`Amarande`	`some of us work in places with schedules that can CHANGE from week to week, making it hard to promise specific nights every week till infinity`
`19:46.38`	`Amarande`	`or even if our schedule is relatively static, the place is open late enough that we might have to be called upon to work later in a pinch`
`19:46.54`	`karl_w_w`	`that's crazy talk Amarande`
`19:46.56`	`Dagmar`	`Yeah, I used to get on-call crap happening in the middle of raids`
`19:46.57`	`Amarande`	`and let's put it this way, this time of year in New England, "pinches" happen a lot :P`
`19:47.06`	`karl_w_w`	`it's always possible to find a time that most people can make`
`19:47.21`	`Dagmar`	`"most" =~ 8 manning a 10-man instance.`
`19:47.39`	`Amarande`	`... due to all these damn snowstorms keeping people homebound at random and then having to shuffle around extra hours on other days to make up the work ...`
`19:47.47`	`karl_w_w`	`implying the guild size limit is 10?`
`19:48.04`	`Dagmar`	`No, implying that shit happens to people who have active lives outside the game.`
`19:48.10`	`karl_w_w`	`if 2 people can't make it one week`
`19:48.12`	`Amarande`	`karl: implying that your "A" team is probably 10 people`
`19:48.15`	`karl_w_w`	`get 2 other people`
`19:48.23`	`karl_w_w`	`you're a freindly guild right?`
`19:48.31`	`Dagmar`	`Yep.`
`19:48.34`	`karl_w_w`	`so get 2 of your guildies friends`
`19:48.37`	`Amarande`	`if 2 people can't make it one week, you have to grab two other folks who aren't always working with that same team (coordination level drops, like when football teams have to pull second stringers)`
`19:48.40`	`Dagmar`	`doesn't mean LFR has to be dickbag central`
`19:48.42`	`karl_w_w`	`not hard`
`19:48.47`	`Amarande`	`or who don't know the instance as well (again, second-stringer syndrome)`
`19:48.48`	`Dagmar`	`The whole "group or GTFO" mentality is lazy shit`
`19:48.54`	`karl_w_w`	`how do you have the drawbacks of friendliness and not the perks?`
`19:49.05`	`Dagmar`	`Half of us are goddamn aussies`
`19:49.10`	`Dagmar`	`there's part of it`
`19:49.25`	`Dagmar`	`Last time I checked we also had five people in England`
`19:49.30`	`Dagmar`	`Six in California`
`19:49.32`	`Amarande`	`Essentially, raiding is a team sport, and thus, you have all the downsides of a team sport as well`
`19:49.35`	`Dagmar`	`It makes for fun scheduling`
`19:49.42`	`Amarande`	`Does your football club EVER do as well when it has to pull subs as when it's got its A team all there?`
`19:49.48`	`Amarande`	`Not very often, right?`
`19:49.52`	`Amarande`	`It's the same with raid groups.`
`19:49.56`	`karl_w_w`	`we have 1 person in england, 1 in german, a bunch in aus, 2 in NZ and 2 in US`
`19:50.30`	`karl_w_w`	`we raid ~every week, sunday 6.30pm aussie time`
`19:50.34`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: the problem there is setting actual standards by which people can be punished for LFR`
`19:50.58`	`Amarande`	`how, in particular, do you readily and AUTOMATEDLY distinguish people who are actively sabotaging the group from people who are just inexperienced or not that great at the game?`
`19:51.15`	`Dagmar`	`Easy. People voting someone out take partial penalty points.`
`19:51.32`	`Amarande`	`do it wrong, and basically you make the queues an environment where people basically have to be great at the game or risk account sanctions for failing`
`19:51.39`	`Dagmar`	`The real challenge is figuring out how closely you have to match the percentage to the ratio of dickbags to decent people`
`19:51.46`	`Dagmar`	`..a.nd it's not much of a challenge`
`19:52.01`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: actually, discerning active sabotage can be quite challenging at times`
`19:52.04`	`karl_w_w`	`this problem is fixed by doing flex`
`19:52.14`	`Amarande`	`especially if you have the particularly subtle types of griefers and saboteurs`
`19:52.19`	`Dagmar`	`Hell you could simply handle that divvy-up based on the number of people currentl on`
`19:52.24`	`Amarande`	`a good example is the FIDE Candidates' Tournament cycle in the 1950s`
`19:52.40`	`Amarande`	`took them YEARS, and basically the entry of paranoid Bobby Fischer into the circuit before the USSR collusion was busted`
`19:52.42`	`Dagmar`	`If a group cans five people in a row, they're probably up to some skullduggery unless 50% of the player base is dicks.`
`19:53.07`	`Dagmar`	`Right now tho, the system is broke, and Blizz doesn't appear to be trying to sort it out`
`19:53.12`	`karl_w_w`	`you can't do 5`
`19:53.21`	`karl_w_w`	`the limit's less than that I think`
`19:53.40`	`Amarande`	`Basically, what happened there was that you had usually 6 people in a round robin tournament, and four or five were usually Soviets`
`19:53.42`	`Dagmar`	`Yeah so the four colluding players merely disband and rejoin the queue for another victim.`
`19:53.49`	`Dagmar`	`Very prohibitive that`
`19:54.14`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@2001:a60:2304:9e01:5874:56ef:654f:6230)`
`19:54.19`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@unaffiliated/yoshimo)`
`19:54.22`	`Amarande`	`so they would arrange to very subtly throw points and half-points to the Politburo's presently favoured champion, making it nigh impossible for all but an absolutely perfect outsider to have a chance at earning the challenger seat`
`19:54.55`	`Amarande`	`and very subtle it was, nobody quite found anything amiss until Bobby Fischer threw a tantrum`
`19:55.31`	`Amarande`	`then they started analysing the Soviet-Soviet games very closely, and started finding things like mistakes that were not quite reasonably explainable for a Grandmaster and which tended to result in the opponent salvaging a draw from a loss or gaining a win from a draw`
`19:55.54`	`*** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~Thunderbi@c-98-212-84-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net)`
`19:56.16`	`Amarande`	`(but which the average player wouldn't even look twice at, especially since so many of them were in complex end-games that most average players thrash around in like fish out of water)`
`19:57.02`	`Amarande`	`so basically it was "throw a point here and there" kind of skullduggery instead of anything blatant enough to be obvious on the surface`
`19:57.06`	`Amarande`	`and I'm sure that occurs in all too many games :\|`
`19:57.48`	`Amarande`	`probably happens with rating points in high level arena too I'm sure heh`
`19:57.52`	`Torhal`	`stabs AckityAckAck with a pack of yak cracks.`
`19:58.18`	`jleclanche`	`man`
`19:58.19`	`jleclanche`	`https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_wheel_space_station`
`19:58.21`	`Amarande`	`(meanwhile, high rated players who ask someone on IRC or boards to show up and play so they can just actually get a chance to PLAY a few arena matches get sanctioned for "win trading" :P)`
`19:58.32`	`jleclanche`	`"NASA has never attempted to build a rotating wheel space station, for several reasons. First, such a station would be very difficult to construct, given the limited lifting capability available to the United States and other spacefaring nations. Assembling such a station and pressurizing it would present formidable obstacles, which, though not beyond NASA's technical capability, would be beyond available budgets."`
`19:58.54`	`jleclanche`	`the things we could do with unlimited funding`
`19:58.54`	`Amarande`	`jleclanche: that's because they'd rather spend money on the NSA than the NASA, apparently :(`
`19:59.12`	`Dagmar`	`I'd rather spend money on ammunition for voting with`
`19:59.12`	`Amarande`	`and they'd rather invest in rockets that go to other places on Earth and explode and kill people than in rockets that go out into interesting places in space :(`
`19:59.43`	`Dagmar`	`One man, one vote. Reload.`
`20:00.23`	`Gnarfoz`	`many places could be improved with such a voting system`
`20:00.24`	`Amarande`	`heh, the sad problem is if it wasn't for our widespread influential military might, we might well NEED fascist security apparatus rules. :\|`
`20:00.31`	`jleclanche`	`https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/rq712bknvkiiur/source/VanduulHarvesterShip_12_4_WIP_jD_03.jpg`
`20:00.33`	`jleclanche`	`maaaan`
`20:00.41`	`Amarande`	`especially if this one comment about Stalin is correct, as it easily then would parallel right back at us`
`20:00.43`	`Dagmar`	`Money well spent there`
`20:01.01`	`Amarande`	`I read a comment (it was indicating that Stalin would never have screwed up Olympics preparation the way the Sochi folks did)`
`20:01.24`	`Amarande`	`that said that the real reason behind the NKVD and GULAG and all that was economic and that the whole political terror was a far distant second`
`20:01.42`	`jleclanche`	`https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13559-PC-Games-Gallery`
`20:01.44`	`jleclanche`	`THAT GALLERY`
`20:01.45`	`Amarande`	`basically, that Stalin realised that the whole Soviet economic basis wasn't working, and wouldn't work without a huge supply of near-free, expendable labour`
`20:01.45`	`Neffi`	`Never seen this before. Any idea what could be causing it? http://imgur.com/a/KKVWa`
`20:02.17`	`Amarande`	`so the security apparatus was ratcheted up to 11 in order to ensure that they could have an excuse to pull enough folks off the street to satisfy that need so the economy wouldn't implode`
`20:02.18`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: ptr or live?`
`20:02.31`	`Neffi`	`live`
`20:02.44`	`Amarande`	`I'm not a big fan of the US meddling in everything, but I have a sinking feeling that if we didn't, and other economies were allowed to develop on their own merits`
`20:03.01`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: its hard to say, i havent seen a bug like this either. if its live i would pretty much guess its a driver bug`
`20:03.06`	`Amarande`	`... that we'd probably soon reach a point where our economy, also, would be absolutely untenable without having some way of dragging off hordes of random folks for hard labour :\|`
`20:03.26`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: most likely something to do with fog of war. try increasing/decreasing it`
`20:03.28`	`Neffi`	`I'll see if there's an update, but I've been playing for a while without issue`
`20:03.41`	`jleclanche`	`its unlikely to be corruption ..`
`20:03.49`	`jleclanche`	`overheating etc would be out of the question`
`20:03.50`	`Neffi`	`I used to play on lower settings without this problem, but I'll see if I can toy around to get it to stop`
`20:04.04`	`jleclanche`	`does it happen everywhere?`
`20:04.06`	`Neffi`	`Yeah, it doesnt seem like corruption to me. And my chip is definitely not overheating right now`
`20:04.14`	`Neffi`	`No, just this zone ti seems`
`20:04.20`	`Amarande`	`strange, did restarting the client help?`
`20:04.32`	`Amarande`	`that sounds like some sort of glitch with the wrong data being loaded into the skybox`
`20:04.33`	`jleclanche`	`try /console gxrestart before restarting the whole thing`
`20:04.54`	`Amarande`	`it wouldn't be the only game that happens in either, I've seen it occur in LOTRO (where it often affects water surfaces as well)`
`20:04.55`	`jleclanche`	`Amarande: no i doubt it`
`20:05.06`	`jleclanche`	`Amarande: what you see in the first screenshot is very telling`
`20:05.11`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: i would love more screenshots`
`20:05.19`	`Neffi`	`Certain objects are not affected. Sec`
`20:05.20`	`jleclanche`	`btw`
`20:05.28`	`jleclanche`	`imgur is pissing me the fuck off`
`20:05.35`	`Amarande`	`The fun thing with the time it happened in LOTRO was that it happened in a way that I wasn't actually even fully certain there WAS a glitch until some time after it had started to glitch LOL`
`20:05.35`	`jleclanche`	`please use https://mediacru.sh`
`20:05.45`	`Amarande`	`because basically it was the sky went to a flat blurred grey and stayed that way`
`20:05.47`	`Neffi`	`And it stops happening when I leave the southern part of this zone`
`20:06.00`	`Neffi`	`You can see the invisible wall where it stops happening in the shot I linked`
`20:06.02`	`Amarande`	`but when it went into a flat blurred grey, I was in Forochel in a tunnel through a glacier, where that would not look amiss at all`
`20:06.05`	`jleclanche`	`the southern part.. the bit with the voidies?`
`20:06.19`	`jleclanche`	`it has different fog`
`20:06.21`	`Neffi`	`Honor Hold and south/southeast of it`
`20:06.26`	`jleclanche`	`hmm`
`20:06.27`	`Neffi`	`Roughly`
`20:06.34`	`jleclanche`	`honor hold is outside that area. you get the bug from within the city?`
`20:06.39`	`Neffi`	`Flying between Thrallmar and Zeth'gor`
`20:07.49`	`Semlar`	`does tidyplates have any actual documentation for creating a theme`
`20:08.20`	`Semlar`	`the styles in the default themes seem to be pretty limited`
`20:08.32`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: this is really fascinating.`
`20:09.02`	`Neffi`	`It actually seems like it happens in very isolated areas. Uploading some pics of my transit from Thrallmar to Zeth'gor`
`20:09.08`	`jleclanche`	`thanks`
`20:09.09`	`Neffi`	`https://mediacru.sh/c8b70cf2bfe6`
`20:09.25`	`Neffi`	`As you can see the bones are unaffacted, I'm guess they're WMOs`
`20:09.33`	`jleclanche`	`yeah they wouldnt be`
`20:09.44`	`jleclanche`	`this is terrain shadow`
`20:09.49`	`jleclanche`	`hmm`
`20:10.01`	`jleclanche`	`im still convinced this is a fog of war issue`
`20:10.08`	`jleclanche`	`did you try changing view distance?`
`20:10.58`	`Neffi`	`Changing to ultra, then back to fair, fixed it entirely`
`20:11.19`	`Neffi`	`Weird issue`
`20:11.21`	`Torhal`	`If I could go one day in this channel without seeing LOTRO mentioned, I would be so happy.`
`20:11.27`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: so the problem is gone now?`
`20:11.33`	`Neffi`	`Hopefully yes`
`20:11.36`	`jleclanche`	`try relog?`
`20:11.54`	`Gnarfoz`	`Torhal: I have a solution for you... <3`
`20:12.09`	`kd3`	`ignore half the channel? don't mind if I do!`
`20:12.37`	`Gnarfoz`	`I'd be way more specific :D`
`20:12.37`	`Neffi`	`yeah, it's gone`
`20:12.38`	`Amarande`	`Torhal, would you rather Old Republic or FF14 or EVE or EQ get mentioned daily?`
`20:12.45`	`jleclanche`	`Neffi: id really like to know what is causing this. its been a few.. years since ive been fascinated by a wow bug`
`20:13.15`	`Neffi`	`The HDD is kinda slow and I didn't defrag post-install despite this partition landing on ~90% full. Could be it's not loading the textures quickly enough`
`20:13.33`	`Amarande`	`Neffi, you should have WoW on an SSD by now :)`
`20:13.36`	`jleclanche`	`that wouldnt be it, but a slow hdd definitely explains more things`
`20:13.39`	`jleclanche`	`hmm`
`20:14.10`	`jleclanche`	`shot in the dark here (pun unintended)`
`20:14.21`	`Neffi`	`Amarande: Buy me an SSD?`
`20:14.22`	`Neffi`	`;)`
`20:14.51`	`jleclanche`	`the game tried to get some fog values for the subzone, timed out, defaulted everything to 0, cached it and bam`
`20:14.57`	`Amarande`	`hmmm`
`20:15.04`	`jleclanche`	`this would actually explain everything`
`20:15.04`	`Amarande`	`could it be some sort of memory/swap malfunction because your disk is too full?`
`20:15.09`	`Gnarfoz`	`I don't think there's "timeouts" involved in a local game`
`20:15.10`	`jleclanche`	`esp fog color etc`
`20:15.16`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: there are since cataclysm`
`20:15.21`	`Neffi`	`It didn't go away after a gx restart`
`20:15.27`	`Neffi`	`So unless it holds that cache around`
`20:15.28`	`jleclanche`	`a gxrestart wouldnt fix that`
`20:15.35`	`jleclanche`	`gxrestart is purely the graphics engine`
`20:15.50`	`jleclanche`	`fog values are held in memory, not video memory`
`20:15.57`	`Amarande`	`jleclanche: hm, is that also where the infamous flight DC foible (that you have to know to switch to "windowed fullscreen" to get around) showed up?`
`20:16.02`	`Gnarfoz`	`jleclanche: and you base that on... what? (not that I provided any proof ^^)`
`20:16.07`	`Neffi`	`Amarande: There's space enough left for all my swap, so no`
`20:16.22`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: my years of experience dealing with the damn files :P`
`20:16.24`	`*** join/#wowuidev Breagha (~kvirc@83.143.120.140)`
`20:16.24`	`Gnarfoz`	`also, why does the "Dark Theme" link on mediacrush not work at all`
`20:16.51`	`Gnarfoz`	`jleclanche: that's a Dagmar explanation if I ever heard one :P`
`20:17.01`	`nevcairiel`	`hahaha`
`20:17.04`	`jleclanche`	`haha`
`20:17.04`	`nevcairiel`	`so right`
`20:17.13`	`Amarande`	`i.e., the one where if you have the game still on regular "fullscreen" and you alt-tab away (god forbid you alt-tab away while you wait for a 5-10 minute gryphon ride!) while you're waiting for something like a gryphon or wind rider ride, you DC when you land`
`20:17.30`	`Dagmar`	`Never underestimate the power of having dealt with the same shit a thousand times`
`20:17.59`	`Amarande`	`because of some sort of "if the game is minimised for too long in fullscreen mode, DC" timeout that was added at some point`
`20:18.00`	`Neffi`	`If taken literally, that could be, like, an actual torment in hell`
`20:18.01`	`Amarande`	`was that cata too?`
`20:18.09`	`Gnarfoz`	`yummy`
`20:18.13`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: wasn't that one of Hercules' labours, basically?`
`20:18.14`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: This is why I don't fear hell`
`20:18.24`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: wow has changed how it deals with db files in cataclysm. every call i know of is async now`
`20:18.25`	`Dagmar`	`I have done technical support for a dialup ISP.`
`20:18.36`	`Amarande`	`mind you the horseshit was left to accumulate for 30 years beforehand, rather than it being a repeated task but still :)`
`20:18.40`	`Dagmar`	`No need to waste votive candles on me.`
`20:18.54`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: yes, that must have been torment`
`20:19.12`	`Amarande`	`how many people did you have to tell to fix their DNS settings when the problem was obviously otherwise, due to scripted protocol? :)`
`20:19.22`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: wow holds an in-memory cache for most of them (goes away on relog and some other operations can clear table-specific caches), it also holds a disk cache, a mpq cache and finally if nothing's found it calls the network`
`20:19.23`	`Dagmar`	`A feww hundred.`
`20:19.41`	`Dagmar`	`My absolute favorite was the guy who set himself up with a fixed IP address... using the IP address of our nameserver.`
`20:19.49`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: this could be something completely different but im satisfied that this theory explains everything neffi encountered`
`20:19.50`	`Dagmar`	`Super fucking hilariousness.`
`20:19.57`	`Gnarfoz`	`didn't you miss the actual files on disk between "mpq cache" and "network" (by which I assume you mean the streaming downloader?)`
`20:20.00`	`Dagmar`	`He dials in, everyone else's shit stops working.`
`20:20.04`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: like seriously, once I called the ISP because there was a problem connecting, as in a physical handshake issue between my modem and theirs`
`20:20.10`	`Amarande`	`... and they still tried to tell me to fix my DNS settings first`
`20:20.14`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: "a disk cache, a mpq cache and then network"`
`20:20.17`	`jleclanche`	`re-read :p`
`20:20.18`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande; I never went that route`
`20:20.21`	`Amarande`	`because, you know, DNS settings are TOTALLY relevant while the modems are still handshaking LOL`
`20:20.22`	`Gnarfoz`	`jleclanche: I did`
`20:20.23`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@aftr-88-217-180-155.dynamic.mnet-online.de)`
`20:20.23`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@unaffiliated/yoshimo)`
`20:20.29`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: i dont know what you mean then`
`20:20.30`	`Gnarfoz`	`jleclanche: two caches, THE FILES, and the network`
`20:20.34`	`jleclanche`	`yes`
`20:20.36`	`jleclanche`	`a disk cache`
`20:20.37`	`jleclanche`	`as i said`
`20:20.39`	`Gnarfoz`	`I doubt they're caching 20 GB.`
`20:20.44`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: There's a reason I only spent a month in tech support. I would login to the Ascend Maxen and dump activity on the user's port`
`20:20.48`	`jleclanche`	`erm`
`20:20.53`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: add -level after every word`
`20:21.02`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: Training? None. Someone just left the documentation where I could get at it.`
`20:21.12`	`Gnarfoz`	`ah, now I get what you meant`
`20:21.13`	`Gnarfoz`	`(:`
`20:21.31`	`jleclanche`	`of course you do, I'm a genius`
`20:21.38`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: seriously, dialup hardware just let any ordinary joe in tech go in and surveill a user like that?`
`20:21.41`	`Gnarfoz`	`as am I, or I wouldn't be able to understand you!`
`20:21.44`	`Amarande`	`And we thought the NSA was bad ... :\|`
`20:21.51`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: truly tho it was hilarious when "Bob" would dial in, the max would direct DNS queries for all of the 22 other lines on that circuit to him`
`20:22.09`	`Breagha`	`Any kind clever people who can answer a question about RegisterAddonMessagePrefix()?`
`20:22.12`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: I am anything but an "ordinary user"`
`20:22.25`	`kd3`	`moonfang's about to spawn on medivh's version of darkmoon island if any of you are interested`
`20:22.29`	`Gnarfoz`	`~asktoask`
`20:22.29`	`purl`	`Just ask your question and if someone's around, they'll be glad to help, if they can.`
`20:22.29`	`jleclanche`	`Gnarfoz: on that note, nobody can make me hate async as much as blizzard did with this stuff.`
`20:22.35`	`Gnarfoz`	`Breagha: ^`
`20:22.43`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: When I signed on there as an admin they told me to make myself a member of the wheel group.`
`20:22.51`	`Amarande`	`kd3: heh, pity that information used to be useful :(`
`20:23.07`	`Gnarfoz`	`did you tell them you prefer walking, Dagmar?`
`20:23.20`	`Amarande`	`kd3: is advice on rare spawn timers even something you can act on anymore unless you're already in that zone on that server? :\|`
`20:23.36`	`kd3`	`I'm looking at her right now, we just killed the last elite`
`20:23.38`	`Amarande`	`hell with CRZ you don't even know what server you're on anymore when crossing zone boundaries AFAIK`
`20:23.50`	`Breagha`	`It's just when I use it, it returns a nil value... prefix = RegisterAddonMessagePrefix("Deck"). I put it right after my event registration...`
`20:23.58`	`Gnarfoz`	`kd3: is that the wolf in the woods on DMF island?`
`20:26.53`	`Arrowmaster`	`Cairenn: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8a7_1391646326`
`20:27.08`	`Breagha`	`Did I kill chat or are everybody just thinking? <.<`
`20:27.45`	`Amarande`	`and ouch, I just realised that hunters and TLPD lovers have a very good reason to absolutely detest CRZ`
`20:27.50`	`Gnarfoz`	`Breagha: it should return a boolean`
`20:28.00`	`Amarande`	`thanks to it, if you're hunting a rare mob, you can't leave the zone and come back in a couple hours or anything like that`
`20:28.14`	`Breagha`	`Yeah, I know... Is why I don't get why it's a nil value...`
`20:28.21`	`Amarande`	`you have to STAY in that same zone for the entire waiting period, and you probably can't log out either, lest you be shunted off to some other server and the timing get trashed`
`20:28.59`	`kullervo`	`Arrowmaster: I think the MBR is busted, I'll check the drive on my main PC since absolutely cba troubleshooting NTFS drives on a remote debian system`
`20:29.34`	`Arrowmaster`	`kullervo: is there a reason you are using NTFS on linux?`
`20:29.58`	`Cairenn`	`Aww, that's mean`
`20:30.48`	`Gnarfoz`	`Breagha: you might have exceeded the 512 prefix limit ;D (doubtful)`
`20:31.39`	`Breagha`	`Heh - yeah.. O.o`
`20:31.50`	`nevcairiel`	`may be a sign that filtering is turned off in your region?`
`20:32.10`	`nevcairiel`	`can always check GetRegisteredAddonMessagePrefixes afterwards to make sure, maybe it just returns bogus`
`20:32.42`	`Amarande`	`kd3: actually on those lines`
`20:33.08`	`Amarande`	`is there any way to look up in the UI what server you're really on at any given moment (as in through CRZ or being partied cross-realm)?`
`20:33.18`	`Semlar`	`no`
`20:33.20`	`nevcairiel`	`Amarande: no`
`20:33.33`	`Breagha`	`Thank you, nevcairiel, I'll try that`
`20:33.36`	`Amarande`	`wow, that's something of an oversight`
`20:33.37`	`nevcairiel`	`you can tell if you're not on your home realm, but you cant tell where you are`
`20:33.51`	`kullervo`	`Arrowmaster: yes, the drive being transfered from another machine`
`20:33.54`	`Amarande`	`how can you manage to time things like rare hunter pets and such if you can't figure that out?`
`20:34.09`	`Amarande`	`or do they basically want us to be lucking into them to a degree rather than being able to "stalk" them like in days of yore?`
`20:34.11`	`Semlar`	`you can't`
`20:34.16`	`kullervo`	`didn't really feel like reformatting a drive with 700GB of data on it already`
`20:34.25`	`nevcairiel`	`you need a reference point anyway, its not like you jump between realms all the time`
`20:35.02`	`Amarande`	`kind of like how the first Uber Diablo in D2 was made to depend on factors that you couldn't actually see without hacks?`
`20:35.08`	`kullervo`	`nevcairiel: except when joining an xrealm ordos/celestial group`
`20:35.43`	`Semlar`	`you can guess at what server you're on`
`20:36.10`	`Amarande`	`you can certainly force one game mode or another, too`
`20:36.27`	`Amarande`	`which is apparently legal, although it's so cheap it feels like an exploit :S`
`20:36.30`	`Semlar`	`you aren't supposed to be able to pick what server you're on, no`
`20:36.55`	`Semlar`	`they took measures against just joining a group and being transferred to that person's server`
`20:37.04`	`Amarande`	`don't like ganking leveling on your PvP server? party up with a friend on a PvE server and you get to go over to their server and level on PvE, as I understand it`
`20:37.22`	`Amarande`	`it actually took me quite some time before I even knew that was possible`
`20:37.31`	`nevcairiel`	`if you dont like being ganked, shouldn't have started on a pvp realm in the first place`
`20:37.37`	`Amarande`	`I figured it out one day when I was leveling an alt on Ysera and I was in Ashenvale and next thing I saw someone from Tichondrius`
`20:37.52`	`Amarande`	`and I'm thinking wait a minute, CRZ doesn't put people from PvP realms on PvE servers ... oh they must be partied with someone`
`20:38.13`	`nevcairiel`	`I think it does it that way around, just not other way`
`20:38.31`	`Amarande`	`(at first I saw them yellow, and they were around my level, and I figure "hmmm do I want to try fighting them" then that dawns on me and I'm thinking "yeaaaaaah he's probably got a 90 buddy nearby and I'll get pasted" so I didn't LOL)`
`20:40.00`	`Semlar`	`i am almost positive they changed how CRZ grouping works so that it doesn't just pick the leader`
`20:40.24`	`Semlar`	`even if there are only 2 people in the party`
`20:40.34`	`Amarande`	`nevcairiel: I can see people wanting to do it at some level ranges, thanks especially to the cursed 5-level expansions we've had lately`
`20:40.43`	`Amarande`	`it will probably become MUCH less of a notable thing come WoD`
`20:40.53`	`nevcairiel`	`there is no CRZ on pandaria`
`20:40.56`	`nevcairiel`	`so what does it matter`
`20:41.03`	`Amarande`	`nevcairiel: low-mid 80s`
`20:41.20`	`nevcairiel`	`there also wont be automatic crz in WoD land i reckon`
`20:41.26`	`nevcairiel`	`until the expansion after that anyway`
`20:41.28`	`Amarande`	`at 82-84 you're green to 90s so you're worth honour, but you're still hopelessly outgunned, like a naked person vs. someone with body armour and an AR-15 kind of disparity`
`20:41.39`	`Amarande`	`Uldum is probably a douchebag's paradise right now`
`20:41.56`	`nevcairiel`	`in any case, if you dont want to be ganked, dont play on pvp`
`20:41.56`	`Amarande`	`get a 90, go farm players for real rewards and zero risk`
`20:42.09`	`Amarande`	`1-81 and 85-90 are no real problem though`
`20:42.13`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`20:42.26`	`Amarande`	`I've played on a pvp server for a while and apart from one jerkass gnome in Southern Barrens I haven't even seen any ganking`
`20:42.44`	`Amarande`	`... and of course it would be a gnome, LOL`
`20:42.48`	`Amarande`	`Stupid gnomes. :P`
`20:42.52`	`nevcairiel`	`a pvper in good gear can probably still eat the 85s in jade forest alive`
`20:43.24`	`Amarande`	`nevcairiel: true, though most PvP servers are so massively lopsided in faction population that on many of them you're likely never to see an opposite faction player in Pandaria in aeons`
`20:43.40`	`Amarande`	`what was the joke on Illidan ... if you see an alliance player get out your master ball before the rare gets away? LOL`
`20:43.42`	`Gnarfoz`	`nevcairiel: there certainly is CRZ on Pandaria`
`20:43.51`	`nevcairiel`	`Gnarfoz: not automatic crz`
`20:44.02`	`Gnarfoz`	`?`
`20:44.17`	`nevcairiel`	`you can group of course, but zones dont get automatically merged with other realms like on lower levels`
`20:44.30`	`kd3`	`you can play with a friend on a different realm, sure, but it's not automatically merged like the old-world zones`
`20:44.34`	`Amarande`	`basically, 85-90 is no problem because on so many realms there are so few of one faction that you'll barely ever even encounter one`
`20:44.43`	`Gnarfoz`	`I thought that restriction has been gone for quite a while now`
`20:44.49`	`nevcairiel`	`dont think so`
`20:44.52`	`Amarande`	`but Cata levels are auto-CRZ'd, so Uldum is feeling like a "this is gonna suck ..." moment heh`
`20:44.56`	`Gnarfoz`	`or people are heavily into realid groups on my realm`
`20:44.58`	`nevcairiel`	`jade forest is virtually deserted`
`20:45.12`	`nevcairiel`	`and anyone i see there is from my realm`
`20:45.45`	`Amarande`	`I suspect leveling in Vashj'ir is probably a good idea on PvP realms, too`
`20:45.49`	`Semlar`	`are you on a low pop realm?`
`20:46.08`	`Amarande`	`Not only is it larger than Hyjal, but the 3Dness of the area makes it even more massive still, thus decreasing chances of close encounters of the combative kind :)`
`20:46.17`	`Gnarfoz`	`not by a long shot`
`20:46.31`	`nevcairiel`	`Semlar: mine is a RP PvE realm, not low exactly, more like medium, but not huge :p`
`20:46.42`	`Amarande`	`Pity Vashj'ir has such sucky rewards compared to Hyjal :(`
`20:46.49`	`Semlar`	`have you been merged with another server gnarfoz`
`20:47.05`	`Gnarfoz`	`no`
`20:47.11`	`Gnarfoz`	`not by a long shot <`
`20:47.16`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@2001:a60:2323:7f01:8c86:be1e:9d16:c2a4)`
`20:47.16`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@unaffiliated/yoshimo)`
`20:47.17`	`Gnarfoz`	`what's the guesstimate page of the day for realm pop numbers`
`20:47.42`	`Gnarfoz`	`probably german realm #2 or #3 by population`
`20:47.52`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hazal (~Mikkel@0x5e910d43.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`20:48.03`	`nevcairiel`	`I transferred off german pve #1 a while ago, the lag was driving me nuts`
`20:48.21`	`Amarande`	`on the flip side, I keep thinking that if you're 90 on a PvP realm and want some quick honour, Uldum is the place to visit`
`20:48.31`	`Amarande`	`... but I get the feeling if I try that I'll feel like a puppy-kicker`
`20:49.07`	`Amarande`	`like I said, I'm glad they're going back to 10 level expansions because it will fix that issue`
`20:49.42`	`Amarande`	`the real problem where is that they compressed levels for Cata and Mists, and didn't change the green-grey threshold to account for it`
`20:50.09`	`Amarande`	`at any other time, someone leveling through a previous expansion's content would be grey to someone who's max level for the current expansion`
`20:50.19`	`Gnarfoz`	`nice, I was actually right`
`20:50.26`	`Amarande`	`so sure they could gank, but there'd be no reward for it ... with 5 level expansions there IS a reward for it`
`20:50.27`	`Gnarfoz`	`German #3`
`20:50.34`	`nevcairiel`	`where did you look?`
`20:50.43`	`Gnarfoz`	`http://wow.realmpop.com/eu.html`
`20:51.05`	`Gnarfoz`	`and counting from the top, the first one in EU with a sane A:H ratio`
`20:51.23`	`nevcairiel`	`apparently i lied, was only german pve #2`
`20:51.25`	`Gnarfoz`	`ok, I guess Ragnaros isn't too bad with 0.7`
`20:52.04`	`Gnarfoz`	`time to reboot, maybe that'll fix my video problems :D`
`20:53.03`	`Amarande`	`why did they go to 5 level expansions, anyway?`
`20:53.11`	`nevcairiel`	`playing on pve the ratio was never a big issue. Well maybe a bit back in the day when we did some BGs, but these days its all cross-realm`
`20:53.19`	`Amarande`	`seems like it was a silly idea, and based on WoD going back to 10, it sounds like it didn't pan out`
`20:55.47`	`*** join/#wowuidev Hazal (~Mikkel@0x5e910d43.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`20:55.54`	`Jamash`	`I wish I could transfer my whole stable off pvp but until they give a single fee for all chars on a realm that's not practical`
`20:56.26`	`Amarande`	`I'm finding Illidan is actually pretty fun so far, I thought PvP servers would be a horrid drag`
`20:57.07`	`Jamash`	`I rolled pvp in 2004, and had a lot of fun (and frustration) but now I'm so over world pvp`
`20:57.20`	`Amarande`	`However, I haven't hit 82 yet, so I'm not sure if that last scramble before you can scurry away to the safety of Pandaria is as bad as I've been thinking it will be`
`20:57.23`	`kullervo`	`Arrowmaster: I removed the drive, plugged it to my main pc... and it works just fine`
`20:57.42`	`kullervo`	`debian wouldn't even mount it again once I'd umounted it /o\`
`20:57.45`	`Arrowmaster`	`run chkdsk etc on it on windows`
`20:57.59`	`Jamash`	`if I want to pvp there are ample opportunities to do so that don't involve getting ganked by someone 50 levels higher than me`
`20:58.13`	`Arrowmaster`	`and seriously consider switching to a proper disk format for linux`
`20:58.18`	`Jamash`	`^`
`20:58.28`	`kullervo`	`Arrowmaster: well duh`
`20:58.41`	`Jamash`	`I would never mount an ntfs drive RW on linux if I could possibly avoid it`
`20:58.49`	`Jamash`	`RO support is pretty solid`
`20:58.49`	`kullervo`	`but I really don't have enough temporary drop space on a single drive`
`20:59.15`	`Arrowmaster`	`i have an external drive using ntfs but i only plug it in to transfer stuff to it`
`20:59.35`	`Jamash`	`kullervo: you don't need to put everything on a single drive`
`20:59.38`	`Amarande`	`Arrowmaster: even if there is no corruption, Linux balks pretty damn absolutely at mounting an NTFS drive if it thinks it is not cleanly unmounted`
`20:59.50`	`Amarande`	`and it WON'T recant on it till you plug the drive into a Windows system and properly shut it down`
`21:00.06`	`Amarande`	`I've seen that happen before with external drives in particular, if I mistakenly shut down the drive without properly unmounting :S`
`21:00.26`	`kullervo`	`Jamash: I'm not stupid, tyvm`
`21:00.31`	`Jamash`	`you can virtualbox it and then share it from the vm :P`
`21:00.46`	`Jamash`	`kullervo: I wasn't implying you were`
`21:00.48`	`kullervo`	`but it's still 700GB of data and I only have SSDs that have any sort of space remaining`
`21:01.03`	`Amarande`	`trouble with external drives is they basically have to be NTFS, as far as I understand it`
`21:01.14`	`Arrowmaster`	`kullervo: you can shrink the drive on windows then make a linux partition to transfer stuff to`
`21:01.22`	`Amarande`	`(does FAT32 work at terabyte scales? I don't think so, or there'd be none of the exFAT row that surrounds Android etc.)`
`21:01.39`	`Jamash`	`Amarande: Fat32 absolutely does not work at terabyte scales`
`21:01.46`	`Amarande`	`Jamash: yeah, didn't think so`
`21:01.52`	`Amarande`	`so you only have a choice of evils, basically, with externals`
`21:02.09`	`Amarande`	`if you format it ext2, then you can't use it with your Windows machines and half the point of an external drive is easy portability between computers`
`21:02.15`	`Arrowmaster`	`i wasnt aware android supported exfat`
`21:02.22`	`Amarande`	`Arrowmaster: it doesn't`
`21:02.50`	`Amarande`	`but there's a big row about it, and it's thought to be one of the reasons why Android devices are shifting en masse towards the philosophy of not having an SD slot`
`21:02.56`	`Jamash`	`I mean, you could have a multiterabyte fat32 volume, as long as none of your files are ever >= 4GB`
`21:03.18`	`Amarande`	`because you can have >32GB internal storage under ext2 (using MTP to transfer to computer, perhaps) just fine`
`21:03.29`	`Amarande`	`but if you go above that on an SD card, you're stuck paying Microsoft tribute, pretty much`
`21:03.43`	`Jamash`	`but the mere thought of running fat32 checkdisk on a TB volume gives me the heebie-jeebies`
`21:03.47`	`Arrowmaster`	`you can have >32GB with fat32 too, blame microsoft for limiting the format utility on windows`
`21:04.01`	`Amarande`	`since unless you expect people to allow their SD cards to be formatted in a way that makes them no longer usable on 'normal' devices/computers (i.e., ext2/3/4)`
`21:04.16`	`Amarande`	`you would basically be forced to go with the exFAT standard, and that costs money`
`21:04.34`	`Jamash`	`well you can get an ext2 driver for windows but it's not a practical solution if you ever want to use it on a computer you don't own`
`21:04.55`	`Arrowmaster`	`that driver is also really old and outdated afaik`
`21:05.02`	`Amarande`	`yup, that's the basic issue`
`21:05.16`	`*** join/#wowuidev solo-work (~solocomma@208.86.102.194)`
`21:05.23`	`Amarande`	`it's easier for Linux to bend over for Microsoft formats (especially in countries that don't honour software patents) than it is for Windows users to get support for Linux formats`
`21:05.28`	`Arrowmaster`	`and nobody is aware you can use UDF for stuff other than optical discs`
`21:05.30`	`*** join/#wowuidev ShadniX\| (dagger@p57941498.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`21:05.42`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I believe they went to 5 lvl expansions due to the old talent point system`
`21:05.51`	`Amarande`	`Esamynn: ah`
`21:05.55`	`Jamash`	`hooray for getting rid of the old talent point system`
`21:06.06`	`Esamynn\|work`	`you know, they wanted you to get something every level`
`21:06.08`	`Jamash`	`rest in peace, nobody misses you`
`21:06.11`	`Esamynn\|work`	`now that they've gotten rid of that concept`
`21:06.12`	`Amarande`	`though yeah, its worst downside is the fact that so many trivial things get away with being "green"`
`21:06.14`	`Neffi`	`Why would you use UDF for stuff other than optical disks?`
`21:06.21`	`Jamash`	`Neffi: Because it's not exfat`
`21:06.46`	`Arrowmaster`	`Neffi: because it works on all 3 major desktop OSs out of the box`
`21:07.03`	`TC-Work`	`Arrowmaster: You noticed the amazon anime sale?`
`21:07.06`	`Arrowmaster`	`no`
`21:07.07`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: yeah, because it's supported on Linux, OSX, and Windows, doesn't have crippling size limitations, and it isn't encumbered`
`21:07.18`	`Amarande`	`all the other formats for >32GB systems have issues`
`21:07.36`	`Arrowmaster`	`again, the 32GB thing is bullshit forget about it`
`21:07.38`	`TC-Work`	`Arrowmaster: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_1?rh=n%3A2625373011%2Cp_n_theme_browse-bin%3A2650364011%2Cp_n_format_browse-bin%3A2650305011%2Cp_n_availability%3A8219609011%2Cp_n_condition-type%3A6461716011&bbn=2625373011&ie=UTF8&qid=1391793041&amp`
`21:07.38`	`*** join/#wowuidev ShadniX\| (dagger@p5DDFC97D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`21:07.47`	`Amarande`	`FAT32 doesn't support large files, NTFS has issues with R/W on Linux apparently`
`21:07.59`	`Amarande`	`exFAT has severe patent encumbrance issues (i.e., fees)`
`21:08.01`	`nevcairiel`	`linux NTFS driver is fine`
`21:08.04`	`Amarande`	`FOSS filesystems won't work with Windows`
`21:08.06`	`Arrowmaster`	`NTFS is just bad`
`21:09.14`	`Neffi`	`Aren't there third party drivers for ext* on Windows?`
`21:09.16`	`Arrowmaster`	`TC-Work: totoro is $27.65 :( why so expensive`
`21:09.23`	`Bruners`	`http://www.ext2fsd.com/ also ntfs writes fine in linux`
`21:09.25`	`Arrowmaster`	`Neffi: yes they are old and not supported anymore`
`21:09.28`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: very outdated one for ext2`
`21:09.31`	`nevcairiel`	`Neffi: they are worse than ntfs drivers for linux`
`21:09.37`	`Amarande`	`and I'm not 100% sure you can even load them on newer versions of Windows`
`21:09.46`	`Amarande`	`or that we can EVER really get proper FOSS filesystem support on Windows anymore`
`21:09.53`	`Amarande`	`due to the driver security rules in newer versions`
`21:10.07`	`Jamash`	`there's a reason microsoft invalidates all old drivers every few years`
`21:10.13`	`Amarande`	`don't you basically have to get Microsoft's blessing in some way shape or form for a driver to load on 8.1?`
`21:10.23`	`Jamash`	`keeps the riff-raff out`
`21:10.25`	`nevcairiel`	`no, you just need a valid signing certificate`
`21:10.36`	`*** join/#wowuidev solo-work (~solocomma@208.86.102.194)`
`21:10.54`	`Jamash`	`valid according to whom?`
`21:10.54`	`Amarande`	`hmm, that's an interesting conundrum, then`
`21:10.58`	`Amarande`	`would that be possible to do without GPL being broken?`
`21:11.07`	`Arrowmaster`	`TC-Work: this stuff is barely on sale, maybe a few dollars off from the normal prices`
`21:11.17`	`TC-Work`	`shrug`
`21:11.20`	`Amarande`	`sure, you could distribute the source code as required I suppose, but it's not ALL you need for the driver to work, because it won't work without a valid signing certificate`
`21:11.25`	`Amarande`	`and you can't opensource that :)`
`21:11.31`	`nevcairiel`	`Jamash: the certificate authorities installed on the PC you want to run it on, i suppose`
`21:11.38`	`Esamynn\|work`	`the other problem with ext2/3/4 is that you really don't want to deal with permissions on an external drive either`
`21:11.42`	`Amarande`	`is the cert thus considered part of the "source code", since it's a required part of building the driver functionally?`
`21:11.50`	`Esamynn\|work`	`which is also a reason to not go with NTFS`
`21:12.25`	`nevcairiel`	`Amarande: open source doesn't require you to hand-hold people through the compilation process, if they don't have the tools to build it properly, its not your fault`
`21:12.28`	`nevcairiel`	`everyone can buy a cert`
`21:12.34`	`nevcairiel`	`besides, you can tell windows to disable the checks`
`21:12.41`	`nevcairiel`	`although its usually not very recommended`
`21:12.44`	`Neffi`	`It's not longer possible to install unsigned drivers?`
`21:12.46`	`Bruners`	`http://revryl.com/2013/08/06/install-unsigned-drivers/`
`21:12.51`	`Neffi`	`Oh, nvm`
`21:13.18`	`Esamynn\|work`	`nevcairiel: only within reason`
`21:13.27`	`Fisker`	`have a good weekend Lopeppeppy`
`21:13.31`	`Jamash`	`This is hilarious http://sipa.ulyssis.org/2010/02/filesystems-for-portable-disks/`
`21:13.41`	`Bruners`	`hi Fisker`
`21:13.48`	`Jamash`	`you create a deliberately invalid partition table and everything works`
`21:13.50`	`Esamynn\|work`	`part of the point of GPL v3 was to prevent companies from doing that using proprietery build tools that you couldn't get your hands on`
`21:13.55`	`Fisker`	`hi Bruners`
`21:14.08`	`nevcairiel`	`Esamynn\|work: if you have the code, you can figure it out :p`
`21:14.34`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I think it was tivo boxes that were really bad about this?`
`21:14.36`	`nevcairiel`	`in any case, the point is just because the driver is hard to use without signing it doesnt mean you need to provide a signing cert with your code :P`
`21:14.49`	`Esamynn\|work`	`without the companies internal tools, there was literally no way to get your own build to run on the hardware`
`21:14.52`	`Arrowmaster`	`Esamynn\|work: v3 was to stop TiVo from using opensource code but locking everything down to only their signed binaries being usable`
`21:15.02`	`Esamynn\|work`	`Arrowmaster: precisely my point`
`21:15.16`	`Arrowmaster`	`its called the anti TiVo clause`
`21:15.19`	`Esamynn\|work`	`you can't just say build tools are completely seperate from source code, it's not that cut and dry`
`21:15.50`	`Esamynn\|work`	`there is a difference between hard and impossibler`
`21:16.01`	`Esamynn\|work`	`s/impossibler/impossible/`
`21:16.05`	`Jamash`	`There's a difference between requiring a valid certificate from any recognized authority and requiring a certificate from a specific key`
`21:16.17`	`Esamynn\|work`	`for example, yes`
`21:16.26`	`nevcairiel`	`then lets just say the tools are available but they have to purchase them, thats not a blocker`
`21:16.38`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I would agree`
`21:16.45`	`Esamynn\|work`	`that does not violate the spirit of the GPL`
`21:16.50`	`Jamash`	`the Tivo issue was they wouldn't sign binaries for anyone else, whereas with windows you can get a cert from anywhere`
`21:17.10`	`nevcairiel`	`(it might be weird if you also sell the tools required, though)`
`21:17.11`	`Jamash`	`or self-install a cert, even`
`21:17.31`	`Bruners`	`what was the initial issue in this discussion ?`
`21:17.40`	`nevcairiel`	`during development you can certainly do fine without a proper cert`
`21:17.42`	`Jamash`	`I have my own self-signed cert for doing SSL over my local network`
`21:17.44`	`Esamynn\|work`	`open source file system drivers for windows`
`21:17.47`	`nevcairiel`	`but if you want to spread it around..`
`21:17.54`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@aftr-88-217-180-155.dynamic.mnet-online.de)`
`21:17.54`	`*** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@unaffiliated/yoshimo)`
`21:18.01`	`nevcairiel`	`unsigned drivers may raise eyebrows`
`21:18.08`	`Arrowmaster`	`Bruners: something about kullervo using ntfs on linux`
`21:18.20`	`Esamynn\|work`	`oh right`
`21:18.33`	`Jamash`	`you could include the cert with the driver, then tell users to install it`
`21:18.47`	`Jamash`	`thus bypassing the point of signed drivers`
`21:19.14`	`nevcairiel`	`while some of the weird users may fall for it, it would still raise eyebrows :P`
`21:19.24`	`Arrowmaster`	`most users wouldnt know how to install the cert and not know what all they risk by doing that`
`21:19.31`	`Esamynn\|work`	`^`
`21:19.39`	`nevcairiel`	`its not like driver signing certs are that expensive`
`21:19.44`	`Esamynn\|work`	`vast majority wouldn't know what they were risking, not really`
`21:19.46`	`nevcairiel`	`maybe $100 for 3 years or so?`
`21:19.55`	`Arrowmaster`	`it could be a cert only good for signing or it could be a root cert letting you mitm all their ssl traffic`
`21:19.59`	`Jamash`	`all malware has to do is ship with a buggy copy of a legit signed driver to get into the kernel anyway`
`21:20.12`	`Arrowmaster`	`Jamash: been done`
`21:20.17`	`Jamash`	`I know, that's why I said that`
`21:20.30`	`Jamash`	`or just let sony write your rootkit for you`
`21:20.46`	`kullervo`	`wth Verbatim 3TB drives for <100 euros... Can they be any good?`
`21:20.52`	`Bruners`	`there is already the risk of running Windows/OS X`
`21:20.54`	`Jamash`	`exactly`
`21:21.09`	`Arrowmaster`	`the cert stuff has strayed so far from how it was originally ment to work though`
`21:21.54`	`Jamash`	`that's true of pretty much every widely used technology`
`21:22.06`	`Arrowmaster`	`yup`
`21:22.28`	`Arrowmaster`	`its so fucked up seeing that nothing really checks for revoked certs properly`
`21:22.30`	`Jamash`	`but yes, just requiring that you have "a certificate" as opposed to "a certificate from somebody trustworthy" is pretty meaningless`
`21:22.33`	`nevcairiel`	`especially those invented before the internet turned evil`
`21:22.58`	`Jamash`	`Nov 2, 1988?`
`21:23.22`	`nevcairiel`	`Jamash: well it needs a trusted cert, the problem is that you can tell your OS to trust other things, but that sure requires a lot of extra interaction`
`21:23.31`	`Jamash`	`X.509 was initially issued on July 3, 1988`
`21:23.36`	`Jamash`	`hahahahahaha`
`21:23.46`	`Jamash`	`he's right`
`21:24.19`	`Arrowmaster`	`nevcairiel: and 'trust' means that it was signed by a cert you trust, not that it hasnt been revoked`
`21:25.04`	`Jamash`	`nevcairiel: people will click through anything during software installation`
`21:26.02`	`Bruners`	`is it possible to _not_ install mccafe scan-something with the adobe flash updates on windows ?`
`21:26.16`	`Gnarfoz`	`sure`
`21:26.31`	`kullervo`	`Jamash: I admit having almost done it myself, then going "what the FUCK did it just try to hide from me?"`
`21:26.34`	`TC-Work`	`Just unckeck it`
`21:26.40`	`TC-Work`	`un*check`
`21:26.43`	`TC-Work`	`...`
`21:26.44`	`Bruners`	`pretty damn sure there was nothing to uncheck`
`21:26.46`	`TC-Work`	`I need to go home`
`21:26.53`	`Arrowmaster`	`you have to uncheck it on the download page`
`21:26.56`	`Gnarfoz`	`but you can also just go to http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer/distribution3.html and grab the installer that doesn't include it`
`21:26.58`	`Arrowmaster`	`not the instealler`
`21:27.00`	`Esamynn\|work`	`^`
`21:27.00`	`Arrowmaster`	`installer`
`21:27.04`	`Esamynn\|work`	`what Arrowmaster said`
`21:27.12`	`Gnarfoz`	`Arrowmaster: instealer is kind of appropriate`
`21:27.14`	`kullervo`	`yeah that's one particular one I think should be illegal`
`21:27.21`	`Arrowmaster`	`complete typo`
`21:27.28`	`Gnarfoz`	`completely awesome`
`21:27.30`	`Gnarfoz`	`:D`
`21:27.39`	`Esamynn\|work`	`Froidian slip`
`21:27.47`	`kullervo`	`wut, there's no option to "eject" hard drives in windows`
`21:27.50`	`Gnarfoz`	`*Freud`
`21:27.59`	`Esamynn\|work`	`I knew I had that wrong`
`21:28.01`	`Esamynn\|work`	`thansk`
`21:28.12`	`Gnarfoz`	`much pun, very typo`
`21:29.16`	`TC-Work`	`~lart Gnarfoz`
`21:29.16`	`purl`	`smacks Gnarfoz up side the head with a clue-by-4`
`21:30.06`	`Neffi`	`Is there a neutral inkeeper in Shat or do I have to join aldor/scryer?`
`21:30.21`	`Gnarfoz`	`lower level`
`21:30.27`	`Dagmar`	`Yes you'll just have to tolerate the stage show`
`21:30.34`	`Dagmar`	`Look for mailboxes`
`21:30.36`	`Gnarfoz`	`at... the actual inn`
`21:30.44`	`Jamash`	`kullervo: you can go into disk management and unmount it`
`21:31.15`	`Gnarfoz`	`kullervo: there is, if they're marked as hot-pluggable by the controller`
`21:32.05`	`Dagmar`	`The worst that can happen si the whole machine can crash as you eject the disk it's running off of.... but at least that eon't fry anything`
`21:32.29`	`kullervo`	`I once unmounted the system drive on debian`
`21:32.32`	`Jamash`	`grats`
`21:32.51`	`Neffi`	`Yeah, that's not an inn`
`21:32.53`	`kullervo`	`wasn't my smartest move`
`21:32.58`	`Jamash`	`lul`
`21:33.11`	`Gnarfoz`	`jleclanche: pasting an image from the clipboard doesn't work on mediacrush :( guess that's only possible using Flash? (which is what imgur does)`
`21:36.08`	`Gnarfoz`	`kullervo: https://mediacru.sh/iSAZslXGIbv6`
`21:36.32`	`kullervo`	`Gnarfoz: mine isn't exactly plugged in as a removable drive`
`21:36.44`	`Gnarfoz`	`neither are those`
`21:36.57`	`kullervo`	`... and I think I haven't enabled hotplugging on the mobo`
`21:36.59`	`Gnarfoz`	`it depends on what the controller tells the OS`
`21:37.20`	`Gnarfoz`	`those two only show up because my additional sata controller is kind of dumb`
`21:37.55`	`Gnarfoz`	`the other 7 don't show up because they're attached to the controllers on my motherboard, for which I can disable hotplug in the UEFI setup`
`21:37.59`	`kullervo`	`yeah I could've tried plugging to the additional slots but I was lazy and just switched the drive`
`21:38.02`	`Gnarfoz`	`(which I did)`
`21:38.20`	`kullervo`	`also, because the extra ports are disabled to save a small amount of power`
`21:38.34`	`Gnarfoz`	`*a ridiculously small amount`
`21:38.37`	`Gnarfoz`	`(probably)`
`21:39.26`	`kullervo`	`it actually is like... a watt or so`
`21:39.42`	`Gnarfoz`	`what`
`21:39.44`	`Gnarfoz`	`for what`
`21:39.57`	`Neffi`	`A watt for an unused port? I dont think so`
`21:40.00`	`Gnarfoz`	`it's an open circuit`
`21:40.21`	`kullervo`	`I'm not at all sure about how trustworthy the asus software is`
`21:40.43`	`Neffi`	`If it's measuring electrical usage, probably not at all`
`21:41.17`	`kullervo`	`if I disconnect it's because I've physically shorted my server`
`21:41.17`	`kullervo`	`brb`
`21:42.25`	`Gnarfoz`	`not much chance of that with SATA`
`21:45.04`	`kullervo`	`yes but I could've poked the mobo by stumbling into it or something`
`21:46.41`	`Gnarfoz`	`usually doesn't do anything`
`21:47.06`	`kullervo`	`you must be real fun at parties`
`21:49.37`	`Gnarfoz`	`I'd hope so`
`22:13.09`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`22:28.26`	`*** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht)`
`22:38.48`	`*** join/#wowuidev kullervo (~kullervo@unaffiliated/ozguli)`
`22:45.35`	`*** join/#wowuidev MysticalOS (~Myst@50.96.224.77)`
`22:49.29`	`kullervo`	`yeah turns out, I haven't enabled hotplugging on the server's mobo either`
`22:49.44`	`kullervo`	`and just guess if the bios can be remote managed`
`22:50.41`	`Amarande`	`kullervo: on the subject of system epic fails on linux`
`22:50.44`	`Amarande`	`once I tried to move the ld.so`
`22:51.35`	`Amarande`	`and Neffi, you don't have to join the actual Aldor or Scryers to use their inns, anyway`
`22:51.42`	`kullervo`	`okay, even I think there can't be any reason to do that`
`22:51.53`	`Amarande`	`as long as you're not a Draenei or Blood Elf and trying to use the mismatched by default faction's place :)`
`22:52.13`	`Amarande`	`except for draenei/BE everyone starts out at base neutral with both, after all`
`22:52.24`	`kullervo`	`Amarande: was fun to accidentally fly into the wrong one in tbc`
`22:52.34`	`Gnarfoz`	`do what?`
`22:52.44`	`Amarande`	`the only BC factions you start out as on non-speaking terms with are Sporeggar and Kurenai/Mag'har`
`22:52.55`	`Amarande`	`kullervo: it was way way way long ago`
`22:53.09`	`Amarande`	`I had tried to manually upgrade a slackware box from libc5 to glibc, it did not go well`
`22:53.23`	`Amarande`	`at one point I compiled glibc and realised I had forgotten to specify a prefix, so everything went to /usr/local`
`22:53.32`	`Amarande`	`so I tried moving it back to the main system folders ...`
`22:53.37`	`Dagmar`	`LOL`
`22:53.51`	`Amarande`	`of course, then I realise that the ld.so path is specifically hard coded in things, so then nothing runs LOL`
`22:54.03`	`Dagmar`	`That's on par with accidentally whacking the ends of the jumper cables together`
`22:54.35`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: to be fair, it was long enough ago that my computer of the time was wimpy enough that glibc took FOREVER to build`
`22:54.43`	`Amarande`	`so I was really seriously hoping not to have to build it a second time :\|`
`22:55.02`	`Amarande`	`like, I think it took longer to build than X, and X took 10+ hours back then`
`22:55.07`	`Dagmar`	`I tended to look at anything that could easily result in my system being foobar as something to investigate all the way through`
`22:55.17`	`Dagmar`	`...and upgrading glibc was a bloody goddamn nightmare`
`22:55.28`	`Amarande`	`oh well, on linux, it's a common adage that you learn shit by breaking it :)`
`22:55.35`	`Dagmar`	`Hell yes.`
`22:55.39`	`Dagmar`	`Failure is educational.`
`22:55.53`	`Amarande`	`and conversely, that if you break something, you should try to remember it as an opportunity to remember 1) that X breaks Y, and 2) how to fix it`
`22:56.10`	`Amarande`	`unlike, say, Windows`
`22:56.11`	`Gnarfoz`	`Dagmar: politicians are a counter-example`
`22:56.22`	`Amarande`	`where you might learn that X breaks Y, but mostly it's just another "fuck I need to reinstall Windows" episode :P`
`22:56.42`	`Dagmar`	`That's because X never breaks Y in Windows.`
`22:57.24`	`Dagmar`	`It always breaks Q, which is partially dependent upon C, and F which wasn't installed in the first place, and then Watson merely tells you that Y is broken because it's dependent upon L which is referred to in the registry as C by association.`
`22:58.19`	`Neffi`	`And when you explain this to users they tl;dr`
`22:58.24`	`Gnarfoz`	`in reality, you don't usually deal with shit that breaks other shit on desktop windows`
`22:58.32`	`Gnarfoz`	`:p`
`22:58.48`	`Gnarfoz`	`-you+people`
`22:59.33`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: that's because of two reasons also`
`22:59.44`	`Amarande`	`1) Windows problems tend to be infinitely more frustrating`
`23:00.50`	`Amarande`	`2) half the time, it doesn't MATTER what the problem turns out to be, because at anything below enterprise tier Windows typically provides you with so little in the way of means to readily fix serious issues that you might as well just reinstall the damn thing anyway, it'll probably be faster than trying to find the fix`
`23:03.31`	`Bruners`	`9 out of 10 times you are better of just reinstalling :P`
`23:04.26`	`Neffi`	`Well Amarande I really have no need to try and replace my libc on Windows`
`23:04.37`	`Neffi`	`So I'm not apt to break things on a regular occasion with that sort of stuff`
`23:05.02`	`Amarande`	`yeah, that's true, too`
`23:05.10`	`Amarande`	`you don't usually go around modifying the system core on Windows very much heh`
`23:05.18`	`Neffi`	`It's more likely when using Linux that getting something working is gonna involve "hey recompile your kernel with this option" or something equally bad`
`23:05.33`	`Neffi`	`On Windows, it generally either works or doesnt`
`23:06.52`	`Dagmar`	`this is why people build with everything as a module and most of the options turned on except for hte obscure shit like the left handed Trance Vibrator`
`23:07.11`	`Neffi`	`Or use a distro that provides a sane generic kernel, but that works too`
`23:07.53`	`Bruners`	`or just use exherbo :P`
`23:07.59`	`*** join/#wowuidev Semlar-Laptop (~Semlar@142.196.185.93)`
`23:08.02`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: besides, there's not much point to doing otherwise these days`
`23:08.12`	`Dagmar`	`Bruners: No, thank you`
`23:08.19`	`Neffi`	`I think I've heard the name Exherbo mentioned like twice in my life`
`23:08.25`	`Amarande`	`it mainly had a point back in the day when your total system RAM was smaller than a modern processor's L3 cache`
`23:08.26`	`Neffi`	`I guess you can say it's getting pretty popular ;)`
`23:08.36`	`Dagmar`	`Amarande: Maybe some people want a kernel that takes up halg a gigabyte of memory`
`23:08.42`	`Amarande`	`and when your hard drive was smaller than a single DIMM :)`
`23:09.02`	`Neffi`	`Semlar:`
`23:09.03`	`Amarande`	`point is nowadays we've got resources to waste, in most use cases`
`23:09.16`	`Neffi`	`Bruners: Eww source based =P`
`23:09.22`	`Dagmar`	`Bruners: However, I completely support them in their efforts to stand behind statements like "The target users know what they are doing."`
`23:09.28`	`Amarande`	`or at least where wasting the RAM and hard drive space is less costly than the amount of time and trouble it would take to save same`
`23:09.42`	`Bruners`	`Dagmar: i like to pretend i know what i'm doing :)`
`23:10.08`	`Dagmar`	`You've no idea how many times I've told people, "Well, the primary problem is that you have freakin' clue what you're doing."`
`23:10.10`	`Neffi`	`In my experience source-based distros seem really nice, well thought out, well set up, but then again you have to compile everything yourself :(`
`23:10.19`	`Neffi`	`Like, I like Gentoo, but not compiling X`
`23:11.02`	`Dagmar`	`Neffi: Maybe it's cold in the house and your heater is broken`
`23:11.05`	`Amarande`	`Dagmar: heh in ##hardware recently we had someone come in and link in all seriousness a pcpartpicker build that included an Intel CPU and an AMD motherboard`
`23:11.08`	`Neffi`	`haha Dagmar`
`23:11.12`	`Amarande`	`and then when this was pointed out`
`23:11.23`	`Amarande`	`he just as seriously insisted that there must be an adapter for that`
`23:11.26`	`Dagmar`	`Six high-speed CPU cores driven at max for an hour or two can really generate a nice amount of heat`
`23:11.29`	`Neffi`	`With my old Pentium D box, the heat it put out while compiling was actually enough for my room`
`23:11.43`	`Neffi`	`I had to keep my vent closed if I was hitting the CPU hard for a while`
`23:11.45`	`Amarande`	`wallbang`
`23:11.59`	`Dagmar`	`We did climate control at the apartment in SF by running mmore copies of the rc5 client`
`23:12.09`	`Neffi`	`heh`
`23:12.17`	`Dagmar`	`...but then, it was SF. You really never needed to adjust that more than 5-6 degrees`
`23:12.21`	`Neffi`	`In retrospect I think it makes sense that that box died by melting...`
`23:12.49`	`Dagmar`	`I used to wonder why it was that my room always seemed like my closet was hiding a tunnel into hell`
`23:13.02`	`Dagmar`	`Then I moved five mid-towers downstairs.`
`23:13.39`	`Amarande`	`heh I've sometimes suggested that depending on heating oil costs people might save money by attempting to mine bitcoin on their computers`
`23:13.51`	`Dagmar`	`Oh I was making that argument to someone in the office today`
`23:14.01`	`Amarande`	`(since then you're shifting some of the burden from oil heat to electric heat, and you have a slight chance at a jackpot too)`
`23:14.14`	`Dagmar`	`I'm like, if I find one, thhat's about a thousand bucks. If I don't find one, at least it's keeping the apartment warmer`
`23:14.55`	`Neffi`	`Dagmar: Doesn't it cost more in electricity nowadays than your returns?`
`23:15.26`	`Amarande`	`Neffi: unless you're really really lucky, yeah`
`23:15.26`	`Neffi`	`I read just the other day that some big bitcoin operation was depending on their value going up. They spent $17 million mining $4.4 million worth of coins`
`23:15.43`	`Amarande`	`but, OTOH, the heat your computer is giving off is heat your home heating system doesn't need to provide`
`23:15.51`	`Amarande`	`I suppose if you have oil heat that might help cost-wise`
`23:15.58`	`Neffi`	`That's not exactly efficient heat`
`23:16.00`	`Amarande`	`since heating oil is ridiculously flaming expensive this year`
`23:19.09`	`TC-Work`	`Heh, someone walked in here and said "Who wants to see Tupac?"`
`23:23.45`	`Amarande`	`heh`
`23:24.01`	`Amarande`	`in some places someone would probably take that as a death threat and get the person arrested`
`23:32.21`	`Jamash`	`I prefer to run folding@home over bitcoin, since folding@home helps advance medical knowledge and bitcoin is a self-working ponzi scheme`
`23:33.34`	`Jamash`	`although occasionally I find f@h running 5 instances on 4 virtual cores and I have to poke it with a stick`
`23:46.48`	`Amarande`	`Jamash: time for an E5-2687W V2? :)`
`23:48.34`	`Amarande`	`8 cores, 16 threads, fast enough to be your gaming CPU as well, 25MB cache, can use up to DDR3-1866 RAM speeds, fits any good LGA2011 board ...`
`23:48.46`	`Amarande`	`no more poking your f@h with sticks, you can probably even f@h and game at the same time on that beast`
`23:48.56`	`Amarande`	`all for the low, low, low price of about, apparently ... $2100, LOL`
`23:49.16`	`Amarande`	`(There's always a catch, isn't there, dammit heh)`
`23:51.07`	`Jamash`	`I paid $200 for my current PC`
`23:51.18`	`Jamash`	`if I could afford better I woulda`
`23:51.41`	`Amarande`	`also, f@h sounds neat, but basically, what you're doing is using your computer to help big pharma get rich off of you in the end, sadly :(`
`23:52.12`	`Amarande`	`it's ... almost equivalent to those "free" games that sucker you into installing a bitcoin miner so someone else can get rich off your electricity, when you think about it :\|`
`23:52.24`	`Jamash`	`if it helps figure out alzheimer's I don't care who gets rich off it`
`23:52.54`	`Amarande`	`Jamash: don't forget a lot of that money also goes to directly threaten your freedom on the Internet, too :\|`
`23:53.17`	`Amarande`	`Big Pharma is at least as, if not MORE zealous than the RIAA/MPAA when it comes to those brutal intellectual property treaties etc.`
`23:54.06`	`Jamash`	`I'm not contributing to big pharma, I'm contributing to Stanford U. They publish their results.`
`23:54.53`	`Jamash`	`Nothing stopping a drug company in India or wherever taking the results and using them`
`23:55.08`	`Amarande`	`yeah, that's true, it's a nice idea anyway :)`
`23:55.19`	`Amarande`	`(unlike the bitcoin miner trojans, which are just mercenary from the get go)`

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