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| 00:39.00 | jleclanche | Icicle: thoughtsteal = ragnaros + faceless manip |
| 00:39.03 | jleclanche | send me the signal |
| 00:39.04 | jleclanche | send ittt. |
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| 01:32.19 | Shirik | welp, Linode just broke something |
| 01:32.57 | Shirik | it is very amusing seeing the actual Linode server (not your VPS) go down |
| 01:33.20 | Semlar | probably not that amusing |
| 01:33.35 | Shirik | "The system is going down for reboot NOW! node.com (Mon Jan 27 20:31:13 2014): Connection to dallas662.linode.com closed by remote host." |
| 01:34.31 | Shirik | I mean linode outages are pretty rare, but I've never seen one in real-time |
| 01:34.33 | Shirik | with the admins trying to fix it |
| 01:35.42 | Amarande | well, I'm sure they have to reboot every now and then |
| 01:35.49 | Amarande | critical kernel update? |
| 01:35.56 | Semlar | panic! |
| 01:36.09 | Shirik | if they were doing an update they would have said something |
| 01:36.12 | Amarande | I'm *pretty* sure there's no way to replace the kernel on a running OS instance, VM or not, without rebooting it |
| 01:36.20 | Shirik | this is clearly unintended |
| 01:41.12 | Shirik | woah |
| 01:41.17 | Shirik | I didn't know Linode automatically opens a ticket for you o.o |
| 01:41.21 | Shirik | http://gyazo.com/c3e3aac2f8616d77e1f90892af40b22f |
| 01:42.05 | TC-Work | I know mine is not affected or I would not be here. |
| 01:42.18 | Shirik | it is in fact the reason why I disconnected :P |
| 01:47.20 | kd3 | cripes at the eve battle |
| 01:56.13 | Amarande | heh |
| 01:56.18 | Amarande | and this, folks, is why I don't play Eve |
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| 02:05.22 | Shirik | that wasn't too bad |
| 02:05.25 | Shirik | a 20 minute outage |
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| 02:31.38 | Shirik | holy crap |
| 02:32.00 | Shirik | Intel created a Siri-level natural language processor on-chip |
| 02:32.39 | Shirik | supposedly small enough to fit in a mobile device |
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| 03:24.57 | iShirik | damnit linode |
| 03:25.06 | iShirik | you have such epic uptime, why are you failing me now :( |
| 03:25.42 | karl_w_w | because their business name is weird |
| 03:25.56 | Amarande | hm |
| 03:26.02 | Amarande | are battletags region specific or are they global across bnet? |
| 03:26.18 | karl_w_w | region |
| 03:26.23 | Amarande | ahh, that would explain it |
| 03:26.33 | Amarande | so I must have sent a couple of battletag requests to two random people I don't know then heh |
| 03:26.54 | Amarande | a couple of EU friends and I (US) were trying to figure out what WoW would do if you had b.net friends from another region |
| 03:27.23 | Amarande | so I tried sending out friend requests to them, and I didn't get any kind of error message saying "you can't send a friend request cross region" but they report not seeing my requests at all |
| 03:28.27 | Amarande | it's kind of a confusing thing, given that some aspects of bnet are global and others are not :| |
| 03:28.46 | Amarande | e.g., you can log onto eu.battle.net with your US details and authenticator without a hitch |
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| 03:29.30 | Amarande | however, apparently friending across region doesn't work, and bnet balances do not convert between currencies (14 cents USD on us.bnet, but zero EUR on eu.bnet), etc. |
| 03:32.26 | iShirik | woah, something must be seriously wrong o.o |
| 03:32.40 | iShirik | they just opened a ticket with me saying they're migrating all nodes off that physical host |
| 03:34.15 | Amarande | Shirik: now hopefully you don't get screwed over like Project Aon did by Dreamhost for several weeks |
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| 03:35.32 | iShirik | I'm just impressed with how responsive they've been |
| 03:35.52 | Amarande | what happened with Project Aon was apparently their shared hosting box suffered a failure of some sort |
| 03:36.04 | Amarande | ... and then they got relocated onto what must apparently have been a too-overloaded-with-customers node |
| 03:36.33 | Amarande | so normal traffic activity tripped the "nuh uh uh, you're suspended till you can give us a USAGE REDUCTION ACTION PLAN and all that jazz" detector and it was chaos for weeks |
| 03:38.47 | iShirik | I've never had Linode tell me I need to use less CPU :P |
| 03:39.06 | iShirik | granted, I do have one of their upper tier plans |
| 03:42.40 | Iriel | I've not received such a thing from linode either |
| 03:44.49 | iShirik | Iriel: my linode just asploded :( |
| 03:45.01 | Iriel | !? |
| 03:45.28 | iShirik | my server had a little hiccup about an hour ago, and it just happened again. Both times a ticket was automatically opened by linode, and this time they told me they're migrating me off that host to a new one. |
| 03:46.09 | Iriel | Ah, you didn't lose your node then, just its former physical host? |
| 03:46.22 | iShirik | yeah but I can't use the node for like another 2 hours or so |
| 03:46.26 | Iriel | Which data center are you in? |
| 03:46.32 | Primer | I lost 2 AWS instances at the same time today |
| 03:46.32 | iShirik | dallas662 |
| 03:47.21 | iShirik | hopefully one wasn't a backup for the other |
| 03:47.58 | Iriel | I've got a node on dallas323 |
| 03:48.18 | Primer | naw, both were web servers behind the load balancer |
| 03:55.00 | pompy | "Added an experimental Virtual Reality mode on Windows for use with the Oculus Rift. Launch the Steam Client with –vr on the command line to try it. Please tell us what you think in the Steam VR hub " |
| 03:55.25 | Iriel | I may have to try that, is it in the main client or beta? |
| 03:55.41 | pompy | main |
| 03:55.44 | pompy | they just pushed an update |
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| 04:05.53 | Dagmar | Damnit they need to get those final version units to market |
| 04:16.56 | pompy | http://www.howlongtobeat.com/index.php |
| 04:17.58 | Iriel | Hm, that was a bit disappointing |
| 04:29.09 | Neffi | http://imgur.com/gallery/DjbD7TR o.o |
| 04:30.13 | Dagmar | The man still plans to kill everyone |
| 04:38.31 | Ermad | quick question. would doing http://www.wowace.com/paste/9223/ cause taint? |
| 04:39.27 | Iriel | Ermad: shouldn't do |
| 04:39.39 | Iriel | Ermad: you're not changing the frames |
| 04:39.45 | Iriel | Ermad: And your code's already tainted. |
| 04:42.18 | Ermad | okay, thanks |
| 05:02.46 | iShirik | I could make it cause taint |
| 05:04.15 | iShirik | I am now on dallas17 |
| 05:04.27 | iShirik | I choose to believe that the lower number means that I'm more special, Iriel |
| 05:05.02 | iShirik | also, I am very amused that it is copying the swap drive over |
| 05:05.04 | Iriel | I choose to read nothing into the numbers, other than they distinguish hardware |
| 05:05.17 | iShirik | you are probably more correct than I am |
| 05:09.44 | Thunder_Child | Eh, Shirik is special. |
| 05:09.48 | Thunder_Child | In the head. |
| 05:10.49 | Ermad | Iriel: sorry, I am not sure I read what you said earlier right. would that be safe to do or not? |
| 05:11.00 | Iriel | Yes, you're safe. |
| 05:11.33 | Ermad | thanks. thats what it sounded like, but upon rereading the "shouldn't do" confused me |
| 05:11.50 | Iriel | As in, "it shouldn't cause taint" |
| 05:11.55 | Neffi | Ermad: Taint occurs when you set a variable (to non-nil). (That includes when you call functions defined by the default UI, which set variables on your behalf) |
| 05:12.01 | Iriel | but worth asking for clarifying. |
| 05:12.09 | Neffi | That taint propagates when secure code touches those variables |
| 05:12.21 | Iriel | neffi - taint is transmitted externally that way, yes (also if you setfenv a function) |
| 05:12.56 | Iriel | taint's "received" by referencing a tainted value, or executing a function with a tainted fenv |
| 05:13.31 | Ermad | ah. I thought I read somewhere the dropdown cause taint issues at time when it reads the max dropdown options global var |
| 05:13.52 | iShirik | that's why it's not really correct to say "when you set a variable" |
| 05:14.05 | Neffi | Yeah, when you use the built in dropdown menu template, initiailizing it sets variables on your behalf, so that propagates taint |
| 05:14.09 | iShirik | it's more accurate to say "when a variable is set to a tainted value" |
| 05:14.24 | Neffi | Fair enough, iSh |
| 05:14.39 | iShirik | and a value is tainted when it is referenced from a tainted execution environment |
| 05:14.58 | Iriel | iShirik: it's actually "When a reference is set to a non-nil value and the current environment is tainted" |
| 05:15.21 | iShirik | mm |
| 05:15.48 | iShirik | not sure I agree with that assessment, but now we're getting into much lower details than Ermad cares for :P |
| 05:16.10 | Ermad | nah I care. I am still a bit fuzzy on all the taint stuff and like having a clearer picture |
| 05:16.13 | iShirik | does reading a tainted value cause the entire execution environment to become tainted, or just anything that depends on that read? |
| 05:16.15 | Ermad | been getting into doing addon stuff a lot lately |
| 05:16.26 | iShirik | for example |
| 05:16.34 | iShirik | in secure code: a=b; c=d; |
| 05:16.46 | iShirik | b is tainted, but d is secure. Is c now tainted? |
| 05:19.00 | iShirik | ok Iriel wins, as always |
| 05:19.08 | iShirik | disregard what I said :P |
| 05:19.32 | Iriel | <PROTECTED> |
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| 05:39.12 | Mr_Rabies | <Neffi> http://imgur.com/gallery/DjbD7TR o.o |
| 05:39.23 | Mr_Rabies | this was at dragoncon iirc |
| 05:39.31 | Mr_Rabies | there were several eerily close GRRM lookalikes |
| 05:39.38 | Mr_Rabies | probably at least one was the real GRRM |
| 05:39.57 | Neffi | He usually goes to them, doesn't he? |
| 05:41.07 | Mr_Rabies | he wasn't listed as a guest at dragon con this year, but he has been in the past i think |
| 05:41.17 | Mr_Rabies | so he could easily cosplay himself and just go for fun |
| 05:41.55 | *** join/#wowuidev MysticalOS (~Myst@h249.28.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) |
| 05:43.53 | Mr_Rabies | lol i never knew female pandaren were so broken on the armory screenshot |
| 05:43.56 | Mr_Rabies | http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/turalyon/Darklani/advanced |
| 05:45.52 | Gethe_ | yeah i wish those poses were veted |
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| 06:37.47 | Mr_Rabies | it's like "EXCUSE ME, MISS, THE CAMERA'S OVER...bleh, forget it, I don't think she knows common very well" |
| 07:14.17 | karl_w_w | i love how easy it is too see what faction they are on the armory |
| 07:15.14 | *** join/#wowuidev cbreak-work (~cbreak@drz-wizzer.drz.ethz.ch) |
| 07:15.39 | nevcairiel | by the color of the realm name, obviously |
| 07:17.47 | *** join/#wowuidev VIad (~Vlad@151.117.45.31.customer.cdi.no) |
| 07:22.32 | Neffi | By the large horde emblem behind their name? |
| 07:29.21 | Mr_Rabies | at what level does the xp bonus on heirlooms stop working? 85 or 86? |
| 07:30.06 | Mr_Rabies | i wish the tooltip was a but more descriptive or the exp buff was visible |
| 07:31.05 | nevcairiel | once you hit 85 it stops |
| 07:31.36 | Neffi | http://www.wowhead.com/spell=57353#comments |
| 07:51.50 | ccox | Cairenn: http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vs3l2 |
| 07:58.24 | jleclanche | hahahaha |
| 07:58.25 | jleclanche | karl_w_w: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSAL22aZuM |
| 07:58.27 | jleclanche | you seen this? |
| 07:59.29 | jleclanche | man this is the most beautiful combo ive ever seen. |
| 07:59.46 | jleclanche | well, after the prepatch warrior charge bullshit |
| 08:03.20 | Cairenn | ccox: awwwwww |
| 08:16.52 | *** join/#wowuidev eir (~eir@freenode/utility-bot/eir) |
| 08:17.52 | karl_w_w | lol jleclanche |
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| 08:29.03 | Neffi | Archer: beating the stereotype that all shows get worse as the seasons progress |
| 08:41.35 | jleclanche | Neffi: i started watching Bones. I dismissed the first couple of seasons as extremely mediocre, but past season 3 I actually found it much, much better |
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| 09:10.00 | zenzio | jleclanche: I'm a bit surprised you kept watching through three seasons if you didn't find it very interesting |
| 09:10.10 | zenzio | how many episodes are there in each season? |
| 09:10.45 | Shirik | I just spent forever trying to figure out why my friend's computer was having trouble accessing random websites |
| 09:10.52 | Shirik | like ebay's text would load but none of the images, etc. |
| 09:11.54 | karl_w_w | over 20 zenzio |
| 09:12.02 | Shirik | apparently his ISP has an IPv6 DNS server, and that server is returning invalid results, so every time he accessed those sites it would appear semi-broken |
| 09:12.20 | karl_w_w | bones is the best show in the genre for me |
| 09:12.21 | Shirik | not sure whether to be happy that IPv6 is being used, or sad that they would push out a broken implementation |
| 09:15.14 | Icicle | Morning |
| 09:17.02 | karl_w_w | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r65FgUYdBOc interesting/sad thing I stumbled on |
| 09:19.36 | jleclanche | zenzio: 20+ eps per season. and yeah, i was going to get rid of it, but i needed something to watch while working |
| 09:19.55 | jleclanche | it wasnt "bad" |
| 09:19.59 | jleclanche | it was just very, very mediocre |
| 09:22.42 | zenzio | what sort of work do you do that lets you watch stuff? |
| 09:39.12 | jleclanche | zenzio: .. programming? |
| 09:39.22 | jleclanche | this is the reason i have two monitors. |
| 09:39.26 | Alram | oh i was worried you ended up in the sex business jleclanche |
| 09:39.27 | Alram | phew |
| 09:39.35 | Alram | <3 |
| 09:39.42 | jleclanche | well |
| 09:39.58 | jleclanche | actually. |
| 09:40.02 | Alram | pls no |
| 09:40.22 | jleclanche | Sony Online to Shut Down Four MMOs This Year |
| 09:40.22 | jleclanche | cute. |
| 09:40.40 | jleclanche | sigh |
| 09:41.07 | zenzio | jleclanche: I never have enough space no matter how many monitors I get. But more importantly, the non-coders here wwouldn't understand how viewing stuff could work while working |
| 09:41.31 | jleclanche | its mostly background noise |
| 09:41.40 | zenzio | also, yeah - but supposedly they'll be announcing something that should be popular with the SWG players |
| 09:41.44 | zenzio | ah, I see |
| 09:41.48 | jleclanche | which, incidentally, is why watching the first couple of seasons of Bones was bearable |
| 09:42.10 | jleclanche | im quite taken by the more recent ones and as such, I cant actually work while watching it |
| 09:42.14 | jleclanche | first world problems right there. |
| 09:42.22 | zenzio | I can't use series or very lyrical music for that, I get distracted. Mostly just stream di.fm's chillout or trance channel |
| 09:43.03 | nevcairiel | I can listen to music just fine, but when i try an audio book i either miss half the book or get no work done |
| 09:44.43 | jleclanche | audiobooks i listen to exclusively in bed |
| 09:44.53 | jleclanche | which can be fun, as a lucid dreamer .. |
| 09:46.05 | karl_w_w | it's finally happening |
| 09:46.15 | karl_w_w | gary oldman is transitioning into an old man |
| 09:46.24 | Neffi | lol |
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| 09:52.54 | karl_w_w | i've forgotten my pin number |
| 09:53.06 | karl_w_w | very strange |
| 09:56.04 | Neffi | 1234 |
| 09:56.43 | karl_w_w | what |
| 09:56.48 | karl_w_w | how did you know? |
| 09:57.02 | Neffi | Lucky guess I guess |
| 09:57.14 | Neffi | Oh by the way thanks for paying for my lunch ;) |
| 09:58.23 | karl_w_w | no problem |
| 09:58.33 | karl_w_w | but how did my pin number alone pay for it? |
| 09:59.23 | Neffi | hands karl_w_w's debit card back. |
| 10:22.18 | Neffi | http://youtu.be/NFR-ADakI-c |
| 10:22.33 | Neffi | Man pronounces longest English word. Grows beard, plant dies |
| 10:41.08 | karl_w_w | sure the plant dies all on it's own during a jump cut |
| 10:57.34 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 10:57.40 | zenzio | Facebook app update note: "Now you can delete life events". I bet that's a feature many people would like to have outide of computers too |
| 11:04.38 | Workfoz | you mean Facebook != life? |
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| 12:51.52 | karl_w_w | http://www.maniacworld.com/never-play-jenga-with-an-engineer.html such jenga |
| 12:54.08 | karl_w_w | well, looks like it's time for the price of usb 2.0 thumb drives to tank |
| 12:55.12 | Neffi | They already did? |
| 12:58.26 | Neffi | I think I just got my very first spam ever on this account -- after signing up to whitehouse.gov |
| 12:58.36 | Neffi | gj, White House |
| 12:59.27 | amro | did you get mails about growing your economy through stimulus? |
| 13:12.05 | Icicle | learned how to CDN |
| 13:12.08 | Icicle | life is good |
| 13:12.40 | Icicle | now I just need a domain name to point my website too |
| 13:12.42 | Icicle | :D |
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| 13:31.43 | karl_w_w | Shirik is imdb ok for wikipedia citation? |
| 13:45.15 | VIad | amro: :P |
| 13:45.36 | VIad | amro: I know something else that will grow through simulus |
| 13:53.53 | amro | you mean the private sector? |
| 13:56.56 | karl_w_w | he means plants |
| 13:58.03 | Icicle | developers |
| 13:58.15 | Icicle | with a bacon and coffee stimulus package |
| 14:00.28 | zenzio | hrm, just got an invitation to a "30 years must be celebrated"-party. Seems like I'm not the only one who don't find it very disturbing to hit 30 |
| 14:01.15 | zenzio | now to find out how many of the girls I was awkward around 10 years ago will be there |
| 14:23.29 | Icicle | high school reunion? |
| 14:23.38 | Icicle | @ zenzio |
| 14:25.50 | zenzio | not exactly, but some of the people from then |
| 14:26.24 | Icicle | all those girls will have kids |
| 14:26.31 | Icicle | and more than half divorced |
| 14:26.58 | Icicle | or at least that is what I get to look forward to at my high school reunion |
| 14:27.49 | zenzio | nah; about half or so I think. Not that it makes much difference |
| 14:28.04 | zenzio | "accidentally" resting your gaze on them while inebriated is still as fun |
| 14:28.12 | Icicle | true that |
| 14:31.44 | Semlar | has anyone used the "bloatthreat" cvar |
| 14:32.53 | Semlar | scales nameplates based on threat |
| 14:36.25 | Stanzilla | Alram: giev short summary of recent source2 events pls |
| 14:37.02 | Alram | known leaker guy posts something on neogaf |
| 14:37.11 | Alram | was sent it by other neogaf member |
| 14:37.17 | Alram | we know who the guy is |
| 14:37.34 | Alram | another file was found on the same location as the first one with a file listing |
| 14:37.57 | Alram | im pretty sure they are real |
| 14:39.34 | Stanzilla | Alram: ok thanks, do you have links to the images? |
| 14:39.39 | Stanzilla | I have the dir listing one |
| 14:40.08 | Alram | http://abload.de/img/image70qc4.jpg |
| 14:40.22 | Alram | and the powerpoint screenshot i tweeted on steamdb |
| 14:40.29 | Stanzilla | ok, thx! |
| 14:41.33 | Torhal | updates Alram to the latest version. |
| 14:41.55 | Alram | is already on the latest version |
| 14:48.23 | Workfoz | Semlar: saywhat, integrated threat plates? :o |
| 14:48.43 | Neffi | Wasn't that cvar added a while back? |
| 14:48.45 | Semlar | there's been a cvar for it since like 2010 i just don't know if it does anything |
| 14:48.56 | Neffi | I believe it does work |
| 14:49.12 | Semlar | i can't test it without another person |
| 14:49.27 | Neffi | What do you need this other person to do? |
| 14:49.44 | Semlar | be on the mob's threat table |
| 14:50.01 | Neffi | I'll help you in like 20 min |
| 14:50.12 | Neffi | Gonna walk to the corner deli for a smoke |
| 14:50.22 | Semlar | alright |
| 14:50.29 | g0urra | http://i.imgur.com/mRou8Lx.jpg |
| 14:50.41 | Semlar | i just want to know if it does anything and how it behaves |
| 14:50.57 | Neffi | g0urra: that may be the best WoW related wallpaper I've ever seen |
| 14:51.45 | Semlar | someone is forcing me to implement threat into my nameplates |
| 14:51.57 | Neffi | like, at gunpoint? |
| 14:52.04 | Semlar | yes |
| 14:52.06 | Semlar | send help |
| 14:52.16 | Neffi | maybe later |
| 14:52.20 | Semlar | NEFFI |
| 14:52.28 | Neffi | oh, alright |
| 14:53.21 | Neffi | calls 911 and has a good laugh with the operator at Semlar's expense. |
| 14:53.28 | Semlar | :( |
| 15:00.34 | zenzio | "Is it really necessary?" -- "It's only necessary when it is, but that's not always obvious." |
| 15:01.24 | Semlar | how vague |
| 15:06.31 | Semlar | wait a minute i have a pet i don't need you |
| 15:07.06 | Semlar | as far as i can tell the bloat cvars do nothing |
| 15:08.16 | zenzio | so they're essentially bloat |
| 15:11.00 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (~nevin@c-174-63-97-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 15:11.00 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 15:11.08 | Neffi | Semlar: It may factor in your pet's threat. Which is weird, but whatever. Wanna test it with me anyway? |
| 15:12.52 | Semlar | nah it's not really that important |
| 15:15.28 | Neffi | You made me set up my keybind profile for nothing! |
| 15:16.46 | Neffi | Semlar: sure you set it correctly? http://pastebin.com/1rqJhVVT |
| 15:17.11 | Neffi | "Only active when a mob has multiple units on its threat table." |
| 15:17.21 | Neffi | And you probably also need to set bloatnameplates to 1 |
| 15:17.25 | Semlar | i did |
| 15:17.42 | Semlar | and it has no effect on anything with my pet |
| 15:18.11 | Semlar | the normal threat glow works fine |
| 15:18.12 | Neffi | Well if you want to test it with another player unit, let me know |
| 15:18.29 | Semlar | i don't think bloat has done anything since 4.0.3 |
| 15:18.45 | Semlar | i'm pretty sure they were starting to implement it and just scrubbed it |
| 15:18.46 | Neffi | My 90 horde rogue's gear is so bad. I almost forgot |
| 15:20.02 | Neffi | GetCVar"bloatnameplates" returns a float, which is weird |
| 15:20.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Mihau (~Mihau@76.164.170.2) |
| 15:21.14 | Semlar | possibly meant to be the scale |
| 15:21.44 | Semlar | otherwise why would there be two cvars for it |
| 15:21.50 | Neffi | The default value was 0.0. Setting it back to 0 returns an integer. I havent seen any other cvars behave that way |
| 15:21.57 | Neffi | They seem to all convert to ints internally |
| 15:24.53 | Neffi | Any PvP-oriented warlocks know of a good class guide? |
| 15:25.26 | Neffi | I used to play a lock way back when, but looking at everything, I don't even recognize the class anymore. I'd like some points of view on their mechanics from somebody who's up to date and good at PvP |
| 15:26.25 | Semlar | our warlock one shot someone who was mind controlled with chaos bolt so just do that |
| 15:27.11 | Neffi | hahaha |
| 15:27.58 | Neffi | Facing the new warlock 5.0 class in PvP has made me sort of want to play one again. But I want a good perspective on how they play at 90 before I waste any time leveling one |
| 15:34.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Amarande (amarande@24-151-100-63.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 15:35.53 | Stanzilla | warlock <3 |
| 15:45.47 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane_ (~nevin@c-174-63-97-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 15:45.51 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane_] by ChanServ |
| 15:49.55 | Maldivia | warlock is fun |
| 15:52.28 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:53.31 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@121.99.92.96) |
| 15:53.32 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 15:58.19 | Neffi | Semlar: I like how it looks but what exactly does it represent? |
| 15:59.06 | Stanzilla | aggro |
| 15:59.24 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:59.29 | Stanzilla | they hate him for clicking |
| 15:59.41 | Semlar | this texture is clearly not meant to be scaled up |
| 16:00.03 | Neffi | Semlar: If you make it scale up and down "breath in and out" it won't really be noticeable |
| 16:00.13 | Neffi | And that'll give you a cool way to represent the threat level |
| 16:00.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (~Kalroth@d40aa8cc.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 16:03.07 | Semlar | i think i'll remake this texture |
| 16:03.23 | *** join/#wowuidev InfoAbourIrc (~InfoAbour@87.223.2.255) |
| 16:03.28 | *** part/#wowuidev InfoAbourIrc (~InfoAbour@87.223.2.255) |
| 16:06.32 | Neffi | Hmm. Frost mage or lock for Pee Vee Pee |
| 16:09.05 | Stanzilla | both |
| 16:09.18 | Stanzilla | mage though |
| 16:10.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (~arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 16:11.18 | Amarande | mage, simply because pvp might actually be, you know, ACTUALLY FUN there |
| 16:11.27 | Amarande | seeing how badly Pandaria seems to hate on mages in PvE :( |
| 16:11.47 | Neffi | I'm gonna consider getting in PvE in WoD with said class |
| 16:13.01 | Amarande | heh, maybe the pendulum will swing back there :) |
| 16:13.08 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:13.31 | Amarande | tbh, while it sounds like a conspiracy theory, I have somewhat of a feeling like MoP may have been mage-unfriendly in many parts on purpose |
| 16:13.55 | Amarande | since apparently it's actually a way in which MMORPG operators can adjust class balance in a more subtle manner |
| 16:14.06 | Stanzilla | mages are totally fine in pve atm |
| 16:14.33 | Amarande | instead of explicitly nerfing or buffing classes, design the content to be more friendly to some classes than others, as a gentler nudge to players to encourage them to play some classes less and others more |
| 16:14.53 | Amarande | Stanzilla: try doing shado-pain, er, I MEAN PAN quests as one heh |
| 16:15.09 | Lopeppeppy | Tzatziki is the food of the gods. |
| 16:15.21 | Amarande | An awful lot of the solo content seems to expect that you either have decent self heals or decent damage mitigation |
| 16:15.25 | Amarande | guess which class has neither! heh |
| 16:15.41 | Stanzilla | well |
| 16:15.43 | Stanzilla | either you are bad |
| 16:15.53 | Stanzilla | or don't have gear |
| 16:16.25 | Amarande | well, the worst cases were always those bosses at the end of the day for shado-pan |
| 16:16.30 | Lopeppeppy | solo leveling a clothie priest was always a challenge. |
| 16:16.44 | Semlar | evocate? |
| 16:16.50 | Amarande | They would have like 2 million HP and expect you to endurance your way through, as almost any other class you were pretty much fine, as mages, well ... |
| 16:16.50 | Stanzilla | yeah no idea how you can have a problem there :D |
| 16:16.56 | Stanzilla | must be questing in blues or so |
| 16:17.05 | Amarande | Semlar: depends on whether you actually have a chance to evocate for long enough before you have to move |
| 16:17.32 | Amarande | a lot of those bosses also forced you to be on the move most of the time |
| 16:17.43 | Stanzilla | which is no problem for mages |
| 16:18.29 | Amarande | yeah, no problem for mages, because our normal go-to nukes totally don't have casting times, and our instant casters totally don't deal pathetic damage by comparison |
| 16:18.58 | Workfoz | omg |
| 16:19.13 | Workfoz | irccloud = not my usual ignore list |
| 16:19.53 | Stanzilla | ok so a pyroblast does pathetic dmg? |
| 16:19.53 | Lopeppeppy | Semlar, this was like... 5 years ago. In Before Evocate. :) |
| 16:19.55 | Stanzilla | that is interesting :D |
| 16:20.07 | Amarande | Stanzilla: well, initially, we were talking frost mages |
| 16:20.11 | Stanzilla | also a arcane barrage does around 300k |
| 16:20.16 | Stanzilla | also a frost lance does over 200k |
| 16:20.39 | Neffi | I wouldn't be averse to playing the ideal spec in PvE, but I'd play frost for PvP ideal or not |
| 16:20.40 | Amarande | also, are we talking the kind of gear that we had when factions like shado-pain were commonly quested, or are we talking SoO gear there? |
| 16:20.48 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO^^ (~A-KO@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 16:21.13 | Amarande | of course it's no problem in soo gear, that's like going back to do original world quests in wrath with icc heroic gear :p |
| 16:21.15 | Stanzilla | I don't remember exact numbers from back then but like I said |
| 16:21.25 | Stanzilla | either you didn't have appropriate gear (for that time) or are bad |
| 16:22.16 | Stanzilla | especially as a frost mage how does tons of dmg on the move with the fingers of frost procs |
| 16:22.16 | Amarande | Peppy: these days solo leveling a priest is fun and easy :) |
| 16:22.25 | Stanzilla | and is awesome at kiting |
| 16:22.25 | Stanzilla | and has a pet |
| 16:22.26 | Stanzilla | a heal |
| 16:22.28 | Stanzilla | freezes |
| 16:22.29 | Stanzilla | etc |
| 16:22.30 | Amarande | because you're in the brackets where shadow actually kicks ass |
| 16:22.39 | Amarande | it's not till ToT gear or so that shadow really starts to suck, and by then you've been 90 for a while :) |
| 16:24.54 | Lopeppeppy | Leveling as holy, that is - I do it on nightmare mode. |
| 16:25.20 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:26.20 | Neffi | I would tone it down a little |
| 16:26.27 | Neffi | Feels like too much atm |
| 16:26.31 | Semlar | not enough |
| 16:26.37 | Neffi | o.o |
| 16:27.21 | Amarande | Peppy: by nightmare mode I guess you mean you force yourself to do it solo |
| 16:27.23 | Semlar | the threat indicator should block out the sun |
| 16:27.33 | Amarande | since leveling as holy would seem pretty easy once you reach 15, since you can pretty much just ride the queues |
| 16:31.42 | Lopeppeppy | I don't do dungeons either. Ugh. |
| 16:31.56 | Lopeppeppy | So yeah, just me cruising around. :) |
| 16:34.35 | *** join/#wowuidev |Jelly| (~|Jelly|@c-24-4-224-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:36.01 | Neffi | hey Semlar: http://i.imgur.com/BcU1LzU.jpg |
| 16:38.07 | Semlar | no neffi |
| 16:38.43 | Neffi | :( |
| 16:39.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (~clement@c-98-212-84-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 16:39.19 | TC-Work | heh, my boss walked over this morning and dropped a 780 TI on my desk. |
| 16:39.19 | Jamash | whatup dudes/dudettes/fisker |
| 16:39.25 | TC-Work | if only that was for me. |
| 16:40.01 | Jamash | you shouldn't drop $700 video cards |
| 16:40.05 | Amarande | yeah, I wish I had that kind of budget for upgrades |
| 16:40.12 | TC-Work | Why not? |
| 16:40.17 | Jamash | they might break |
| 16:40.25 | nevcairiel | I have that budget, and there is nothing to spend it on! |
| 16:40.27 | Amarande | as it is, it'll be a while before I think of upgrading my GPU at all, unless this one dies or something really goes sludgey on me |
| 16:40.37 | Jamash | nevcairiel: buy me a new computer? |
| 16:40.46 | nevcairiel | I'm not a charity |
| 16:41.01 | pompy | hes buying znf a new one |
| 16:41.05 | Amarande | basically, at this point to make a real serious upgrade, I need to either go to an Intel processor and thus buy a new CPU and mobo (probably will cost $300-400) |
| 16:41.13 | amro | nevcairiel: that's too bad, I was about to send you donations |
| 16:41.17 | Workfoz | that'll be the day |
| 16:41.20 | Jamash | amro: I am |
| 16:41.27 | znf | Uh? |
| 16:41.27 | Amarande | and/or I need to buy a new GPU (but the ones that are enough of a jump to actually be worth spending money on also cost $300-400+) |
| 16:41.43 | nevcairiel | I only take donations for my open-source projects, so if you have money to spare! |
| 16:41.56 | Jamash | spare a motherboard/cpu/memory upgrade for a poor unemployed addon developer? |
| 16:41.59 | amro | Jamash: I will need all your personal and bank information, and a voice sample |
| 16:42.26 | Jamash | amro: ok, I'll write them on a post-it note and bury it in my back yard |
| 16:42.30 | Amarande | I'm also not 100% sure which of those is a better upgrade at this point |
| 16:42.44 | Amarande | atm, I have an OC'd FX-6300 and a Radeon HD 7850 |
| 16:42.45 | Jamash | Amarande: do you have an SSD? |
| 16:42.48 | Amarande | yup, I do |
| 16:43.00 | Jamash | how big? |
| 16:43.00 | amro | Jamash: that'll make for an awkward time capsule |
| 16:43.06 | nevcairiel | I kinda have a i7 2600k with mobo and memory not doing much at all sitting in a test box |
| 16:43.11 | Amarande | Gut feeling is that going from AMD to an i7 or Xeon E3 is a "bigger" upgrade, but benchmarks suggest that I'm more limited by GPU than CPU at the moment |
| 16:43.16 | Jamash | amro: I didn't say I'd put it in anything |
| 16:43.32 | amro | time not-capsule then |
| 16:43.38 | Jamash | "mulch" |
| 16:43.43 | Amarande | e.g. when I went from a Thuban 1045T to the OC'd FX-6300, game benchmarks barely gained a few points, but OCing the HD 7850 gained many more points |
| 16:44.09 | Neffi | Amarande: Or you could just by a K i5. Why would you get an E3? |
| 16:44.23 | nevcairiel | Neffi: because he is batshit insane? |
| 16:44.24 | Amarande | Neffi: E3 is essentially a cheaper i7 without the IGP |
| 16:44.27 | Jamash | if you have nothing to upgrade then you should play more games until something comes out |
| 16:45.01 | Neffi | you don't need HT. if you care about performance you want overclock. i5 is hands down the best choice if you're going midrange Intel |
| 16:45.19 | Amarande | but yeah, I should see if any of my present collection of games actually hits a bottleneck |
| 16:45.32 | Neffi | That's surprisingly hard to quantify |
| 16:45.38 | Amarande | I know I've seen SW:TOR get down to 30 fps or so in some places, like Taris |
| 16:45.39 | nevcairiel | yeah the unlocked i5s are good choices |
| 16:45.51 | Amarande | but ... SW:TOR is also a good example of atrociously poorly optimised coding, apparently |
| 16:46.05 | Neffi | I think your real problem is, you're playing TOR |
| 16:46.08 | Jamash | ^^^^^ |
| 16:46.15 | Amarande | people have literally had their graphics cards overheat playing TOR when they work just fine in any other game, heh |
| 16:46.19 | Jamash | free to play is too expensive for TOR imo |
| 16:46.34 | Amarande | yeah, I basically will only play LOTRO or TOR while I'm a subscriber at the time |
| 16:46.34 | Neffi | Amarande: No, that just evidence of poor cooling |
| 16:46.45 | nevcairiel | SWTOR was fun for two weeks exploring and playing the story, but it failed the MMO part of its game description |
| 16:46.59 | Amarande | nevcairiel: it still has actual group quests |
| 16:47.06 | Neffi | Amarande: My philosophy when building a computer: test temps with the most strenuous stress test, and stop overclocking when it gets too hot in that test |
| 16:47.07 | Jamash | nevcairiel: it's wow with lightsabers |
| 16:47.22 | Amarande | where do we find these in WoW (non-instance) again exactly, except for the occasional world boss group (and gear usually reduces those to solos by end of expansion too) |
| 16:47.27 | Jamash | except not made by blizzard and everyone looks like they've been given three coats of gloss |
| 16:47.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaylin (~Kaylin@c-71-231-142-154.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 16:47.46 | Amarande | Jamash: and lightsabers are surprisingly weak :) |
| 16:48.01 | Jamash | seriously, why is everything in TOR shiny? |
| 16:48.02 | Amarande | I've noticed this in SW:TOR: if the enemy have lightsabres, it's a very strong sign that everything is going to be okay |
| 16:48.03 | nevcairiel | yeah some of the models could've used some better artists |
| 16:48.06 | Amarande | if they have blasters, you have to worry :| |
| 16:48.12 | Jamash | it makes all the characters look like they're made out of plastic |
| 16:48.24 | Amarande | Terminate. Dear gods Terminate. :| |
| 16:48.31 | Jamash | it's not models, it's shaders imo |
| 16:50.11 | Amarande | and I've never really noticed the graphics be especially bad in TOR |
| 16:50.50 | Amarande | except that the ice in Hoth is way too effing shiny |
| 16:51.16 | Amarande | Dun Morogh? Winterspring? Northrend? Forochel? Zirakzigil? Just ducky. Hoth? OMG I'M GOING BLIND |
| 16:51.37 | Jamash | I told my sister who does 3D graphics to look at TOR and she said "wow, this really is terrible shader work. what the hell is that, a low specularity phong shade?" |
| 16:51.53 | Neffi | *i know some of those words |
| 16:52.10 | Jamash | Neffi: almost exactly what I said :D |
| 16:52.24 | Neffi | I actually know all of them except "phone shade" |
| 16:52.33 | karl_w_w | what's the name of that night time talk show host? :P |
| 16:52.37 | karl_w_w | jay leno nvm |
| 16:52.56 | Neffi | I read some blog post from a good 3D guy raging about how every single person gets specularity wrong. It was enlightening. No pun intended. I wonder if I can find it again |
| 16:53.22 | Dagmar | Nonsense. Everything really does look like someone just sprayed it with a fine layer of slobber |
| 16:53.24 | Jamash | Neffi: phong is the name of the guy who invented the phong shading algorithm |
| 16:54.16 | Jamash | Dagmar: Everything in TOR or...? |
| 16:54.33 | Dagmar | Specularity |
| 16:54.49 | Jamash | oh I get it |
| 16:55.48 | Neffi | In the post he was actually more upset about non-specular surfaces, when artists (and engines) come so close to getting it right but don't |
| 16:55.53 | Neffi | Because everything is specular |
| 16:55.58 | Neffi | To some extent |
| 16:56.00 | Jamash | Yeah, it's like the people who wrote the TOR shaders have never been outside or seen actual human skin |
| 16:56.08 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:56.14 | Semlar | i declare them perfect |
| 16:56.25 | Neffi | I like it, but I would still tone it down |
| 16:56.28 | Semlar | NO |
| 16:56.35 | Neffi | that can get messy and confusing with a lot of units |
| 16:56.39 | Semlar | THEY ARE GLORIOUS |
| 16:56.42 | Jamash | Semlar: why is the top of the number partially cut off? |
| 16:56.54 | Neffi | That's an integrated healthbar |
| 16:56.54 | Semlar | it's in vogue |
| 16:57.29 | Jamash | oh |
| 16:57.47 | Semlar | it shows the percent of their missing health |
| 16:59.35 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:00.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Stanzilla (~Stan@WoWUIDev/WowAce/Stanzilla) |
| 17:00.48 | Amarande | Or you can just use a set like http://tor-fashion.com/electrum-onslaught/ and not really worry about what skin looks like, heh |
| 17:01.08 | Jamash | Semlar: missing or remaining health? |
| 17:01.38 | Semlar | well, the number represents how much health they have left |
| 17:02.00 | Jamash | Amarande: except everything still has that awful edge highlight |
| 17:02.49 | Dagmar | runs in circles at the malware warning |
| 17:04.18 | Amarande | heh Dagmar, did you get the facebook notice that says if someone links you the latest Justin Bieber single, don't click it, because it's the latest Justin Bieber single? :) |
| 17:04.28 | Dagmar | No, but I did hear about it |
| 17:04.38 | Dagmar | Hopefully no one at Norton AV got chewed out about that |
| 17:04.42 | Dagmar | I thought it was funny as hell |
| 17:04.43 | bluspacecow | *gasp* |
| 17:04.48 | bluspacecow | a Dagmar appears! |
| 17:04.51 | bluspacecow | *noms* |
| 17:04.59 | Dagmar | bluspacecow: Yeah, like I'm almost never on IRC. ;) |
| 17:05.23 | Semlar | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:05.31 | Dagmar | I wonder if that site got blacklisted because it has "tor" in the name. |
| 17:07.05 | Neffi | Semlar: I think it would look better if you gave it a minimum width so it didn't overlap |
| 17:07.17 | Neffi | There should be at least 20 px in between them always |
| 17:07.27 | Semlar | if i did that they would be offset farther from the name |
| 17:07.42 | Semlar | more empty space |
| 17:08.01 | Amarande | Dagmar: hm, does swtor.com give you the same behaviour? |
| 17:08.03 | Semlar | i think it looks fine if it overlaps |
| 17:09.04 | Dagmar | Amarande: Nope. I've no idea why openDNS has the other site in the naughty-list |
| 17:09.21 | Amarande | ah, it's been a while since I've used OpenDNS |
| 17:09.24 | Amarande | I use Google's these days |
| 17:10.02 | Dagmar | We use it here at the office, and I just do a dig to vet URLs that are posted in channels |
| 17:10.11 | Dagmar | I was kind of astonished to see it turn up from _this_ channel |
| 17:10.16 | Neffi | Do you guys have a good reason for not just using your ISP's DNS? |
| 17:10.33 | Dagmar | Granted, they can sometimes be real pinheads about stuff. |
| 17:10.37 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 17:11.19 | Dagmar | Like, if you have a directory with keygens or whatever in it, and some search engine sees it, eventually some narrow-mindded AV searcher will scan it, get a hit on one of the dozens of dumbass databases that have things in them which are _not_ threats... |
| 17:12.03 | Dagmar | ...and then other AV scanner people will pick up on that and mark the site bad because 9 out of 21 groups of ignorant jackasses found a problem with the site, and then a couple of days later, you'll be in OpenDNS's naughty list |
| 17:12.21 | Dagmar | I've had it happen to my own goddamn home IP before |
| 17:12.48 | Dagmar | Netsec hassling me about "WHy are you talking so much with a malware site?" |
| 17:13.08 | Dagmar | I'm like "wut", thinking I really had a problem with my work laptop, as impossible as that may sound |
| 17:13.25 | Dagmar | Then they tell me it's my fucking _house_ that's been declared a malware site |
| 17:14.03 | Neffi | lol |
| 17:15.26 | Jamash | I'm all like battle net, y u no work, and then I realize it's tuesday |
| 17:16.35 | Amarande | Dagmar: you mean like how basically every shared hosting site goes through episodes of browsers and dns services thinking it's a malware hive? |
| 17:16.53 | nevcairiel | thats because it probably hosted malware :P |
| 17:17.07 | Dagmar | Amarande: Most of those get hit because someone *did* put some malware up there |
| 17:17.14 | Dagmar | ...but I'm here to say that's not always the case. |
| 17:17.35 | Dagmar | It's *super* fun when it's not the case, because no one has anything reasonable to tell you about why you wound up on their list |
| 17:17.43 | Dagmar | I had a directory with old fucking exploits in it |
| 17:17.54 | Dagmar | sprite and nestea and stuff. Uncompiled. |
| 17:17.55 | Amarande | Yeah, but it's not too unknown for every domain on the node to get blackballed by the malware detector because some jackarse registered "keygenz500.net" or whatever and it happened to land on that node for the two days or so before the hosting provider gave them the boot |
| 17:18.02 | Amarande | right? |
| 17:18.09 | Dagmar | Usually it's tied to IP address |
| 17:18.23 | Amarande | yeah, this is another reason we desperately need IPv6 |
| 17:18.32 | Dagmar | I would rather have remote head explody protoocl |
| 17:18.35 | Amarande | or rather, mainstream adoption of IPv6 on the content provider end |
| 17:18.58 | Amarande | since, well, if I cared to have to figure out a firewall solution on my own, I could be using IPv6 right now myself, Charter has 6RD and my router is compatible |
| 17:19.03 | Dagmar | I somehow managed to avoid a voice discussion with Comcast on the matter |
| 17:19.16 | Dagmar | ..otherwise I'd probably be an AT&T customer right now. |
| 17:19.29 | nevcairiel | i have a gazillion ipv6 addresses on my server, i could put every html file on its own IP and still have a gazillion addresses, the problem is not content providers, its end-user ISPs |
| 17:19.33 | Neffi | Jamash: Works for me. And there was no maintenance today |
| 17:19.49 | Amarande | Dagmar: you play WoW, you might have to be an AT&T customer soon anyway even so, thanks to the net neutrality decision :| |
| 17:19.56 | Dagmar | "Well, if you took the problematic files down..." "No. There is nothing wrong with those files." |
| 17:20.06 | Dagmar | Amarande: I'd rather kneecap a few senators |
| 17:20.54 | Amarande | Dagmar: according to what I read on ars technica, Comcast in particular is making noises about rolling out their own voice chat solution, and possibly degrading the performance of all other VOIP |
| 17:20.55 | Dagmar | Comcast can't even remember I own my own goddamn modem. The last thing that needs to happen is they start talking to me about the files I have sitting on my own server |
| 17:21.09 | bluspacecow | all yr porn |
| 17:21.12 | Dagmar | Amarande: Yes, I look forward to seeing a number of RICO charges |
| 17:21.20 | Amarande | which means ultimately, if you don't want your raid leader to sound like they've got marbles in their mouth, you might have to get AT&T instead heh |
| 17:21.37 | Dagmar | bluspacecow: That's _my_ porn. Not for sharing with others. |
| 17:21.39 | bluspacecow | BALLS IN THE MOUTH |
| 17:22.04 | Dagmar | THe weird little hacking tools I've gotten my hands on, on the other hand, mainly gets thrown into a big pile |
| 17:22.15 | Neffi | Amarande: I think that will fail so miserably for them that they will cancel it |
| 17:22.49 | Dagmar | Amarande: I think I'd rather cost Comcast the money they have to pay the CS reps to spend hours on the phone apologizing to me and troubleshooting the problems I know keep them busy without ever accomplishing anything |
| 17:22.52 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower|Work (~MentalPow@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 17:22.52 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower|Work] by ChanServ |
| 17:23.07 | Dagmar | I pay the $5 "All service visits are free" fee |
| 17:23.20 | bluspacecow | (!) |
| 17:23.28 | bluspacecow | can you get them to service your sexual needs ? |
| 17:23.43 | Dagmar | That depends. They sort of figuratively take it up the ass from me every time they come out here. |
| 17:23.52 | Amarande | bluspacecow: I think that's called the "cinemax" package |
| 17:23.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (~arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 17:23.59 | Dagmar | My equipment isn't _ever_ the problem. |
| 17:24.11 | Dagmar | Yet about once every other year they decide the absolutely have to send a technician out |
| 17:25.07 | Neffi | they must just love you |
| 17:25.27 | Amarande | Dagmar: as for you owning your own modem, is that something they forget about because you're probably at this point grandfathered into the ability to do so at all? |
| 17:25.35 | Dagmar | Amarande: Probably so |
| 17:25.55 | Amarande | I know with Charter, they apparently a couple years ago stopped allowing customer-owned modems for new customers (and from what I hear, even changing your bandwidth plan will trigger you to become a 'new customer' for that purpose and have to switch to a Charter-owned modem) |
| 17:25.57 | Dagmar | Last week was the third time this year they've sent me a notice saying "Oops, we've noticed you're not paying a modem rental fee" |
| 17:26.33 | Dagmar | If I have to pay a hardware rental fee, then i will change to a different provider. It's as simple as that. |
| 17:26.35 | Amarande | but people who already had their own modem, such as myself, were grandfathered and allowed to keep it |
| 17:26.49 | Dagmar | I do not pay monthly fees for shitty hardware |
| 17:26.53 | Amarande | ah, apparently Charter doesn't have the rental fee at all anymore |
| 17:26.59 | Dagmar | I _throw away_ shitty hardware |
| 17:27.13 | Amarande | (presumably, when they switched to that new policy, they just managed to fold it into the next rate hike, I suppose) |
| 17:27.25 | Dagmar | If it can't at least provide me with some form of network monitoring, it doesn't even get plugged in in my house |
| 17:30.18 | Gethe_ | omg google glass invite |
| 17:30.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Fredro (~freddy@xxljgxgwrhxftrwxmflmxhkmn.cust6.csbnet.se) |
| 17:31.02 | Dagmar | I'd be excited for you except the damn things are still really pricey |
| 17:31.18 | Dagmar | If it were more like $300, I'd buy one and wear one, and god help anyone who has a problem with it. |
| 17:31.28 | Dagmar | Leather jacket prerogative > * |
| 17:35.00 | karl_w_w | I don't understand why this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0XtNGuijqc#t=107 hasn't been made into a gif |
| 17:36.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Dennls (~dennis@s55973038.adsl.online.nl) |
| 17:39.19 | Jamash | Dagmar: login server derpage going on http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11422342828 |
| 17:39.56 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (~nevin@c-174-63-97-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 17:39.56 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 17:41.06 | bluspacecow | http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12346804/ |
| 17:41.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@unaffiliated/yoshimo) |
| 17:44.31 | Jamash | bluspacecow: nice |
| 17:45.03 | Jamash | interesting that they cite wowwiki.com *and* wowpedia.org |
| 17:45.21 | Fisker | they got confuzzled |
| 17:45.22 | Fisker | like Lopeppeppy |
| 17:45.52 | Jamash | note to self: do not adjust router settings while on hold in voip call |
| 17:46.08 | Amarande | *cue sad trombone* |
| 17:46.11 | Jamash | yes |
| 17:46.42 | Fisker | do not change tires while driving |
| 17:46.53 | Jamash | hahaha |
| 17:47.10 | Mihau | http://priceisrightlosinghorn.com/ |
| 17:47.43 | Mihau | Fisker: BS, totally can change tires while driving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WLwRg3erm4 |
| 17:47.52 | Jamash | Mihau: bookmarked! |
| 17:48.26 | Fisker | You've made yourself a powerful enemy today Mihau |
| 17:49.32 | Jamash | do not change tires while driving unless you are an experienced stuntperson driving a specially modified stunt vehicle |
| 17:49.58 | Lopeppeppy | I am never confused. |
| 17:50.08 | AcidWeb | https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/42056/264_978-952-232-215-9.pdf?sequence=1 |
| 17:50.44 | AcidWeb | "There be Dragons! An Ethnographic Inquiry into the Strategic Practices and Process of World of Warcraft Gaming Groups" |
| 17:52.29 | Jamash | Lopeppeppy: because they changed it to disorient in 1.9.0? |
| 17:52.32 | bluspacecow | http://www.lifebuzz.co/anne-visited-a-forest-park-in-bali-what-she-captured-this-monkey-doing-you-will-never-expect/ |
| 17:52.45 | bluspacecow | kitteh and mon key! |
| 17:55.26 | Lopeppeppy | Harumph. |
| 17:55.32 | Dagmar | linkbait |
| 17:55.41 | Dagmar | There was linkbait inside the monkey |
| 18:03.20 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (~Mike@c-50-166-85-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 18:03.37 | Fisker | Am I atleast a powerful enemy then Lopeppeppy? |
| 18:03.51 | Lopeppeppy | Okay, you can be a powerful enemy today. |
| 18:04.12 | *** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (~Cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel) |
| 18:04.45 | Fisker | see? Mihau see? |
| 18:05.22 | Mihau | Huh? |
| 18:09.42 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO^^ (~A-KO@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 18:18.13 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (~nevin@c-174-63-97-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 18:18.13 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 18:22.26 | Shirik | sweden, why are you so awesome http://www.thelocal.se/20140128/man-invites-burglar-for-coffee-after-botched-break-in |
| 18:24.48 | pompy | th end of that article .. 'Meanwhile in France, a broke retired crime reporter on a local newspaper was arrested after turning to burglary to supplement his pension." |
| 18:24.49 | pompy | lol |
| 18:29.36 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 18:29.36 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 18:32.23 | karl_w_w | oh wow look at that |
| 18:33.27 | karl_w_w | i always thought totalbiscuit was like the big name in pc-game-videos-on-youtube-sort-of-thing |
| 18:33.43 | karl_w_w | but I just noticed nerdcubed's channel is slightly bigger |
| 18:34.15 | karl_w_w | even though it's only 2 years old compared to TB's 7 |
| 18:34.31 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Cairenn -> http://pastebin.com || 5.4.x ToC: 50400 || #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting || Battletags: http://goo.gl/2bm7n || This channel is logged, via purl || Happy Birthday Xinhuan! |
| 18:34.59 | karl_w_w | shingles Cairenn |
| 18:35.20 | Cairenn | o.O |
| 18:36.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Ressy (~resa1983@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Ressy) |
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| 18:50.48 | kd3 | whee. good thing I stayed home today |
| 18:50.59 | kd3 | atlanta has gone to hell in a handbasket in the past ~2 hours |
| 18:52.39 | Amarande | kd3: snow? |
| 18:53.32 | kd3 | yup. they're calling for 2-3", we hit our high at midnight and it started sticking probably an hour ago. it's all going to turn into ice rinks once traffic lets up and the slush refreezes |
| 18:53.36 | Amarande | Hrm. At the higher levels, does WoW ever have a case quite this bad compared to LOTRO, I wonder now? :) |
| 18:53.52 | Amarande | I've noticed I've basically gone the entirety of Moria without finding a single upgrade for the neck slot on my minstrel |
| 18:54.10 | Amarande | now I'm wondering how often WoW has cases like that, where you go what seems like an aeon without being able to upgrade a given slot from quests |
| 18:55.32 | Semlar | wow fonts are scaled really poorly with animations |
| 18:56.23 | Semlar | if you set the scale of a string using SetScale it looks fine, if you use a scaling animation it looks horrible |
| 18:57.16 | zenzelezz | 2-3 inches? Oh noes |
| 18:57.27 | zenzelezz | well, it probably is there |
| 18:57.43 | kd3 | deep south, remember? our last real accumulation was the ice storm in 2011 |
| 18:57.58 | kd3 | atlanta basically shut down for a week for that one |
| 18:58.02 | Amarande | kd3: the october one? |
| 18:58.33 | kd3 | nah, first week of january |
| 18:58.46 | kd3 | 2011-01-11ish |
| 18:59.19 | Amarande | ah. so not the same time connecticut got whomped, then |
| 18:59.27 | Amarande | which I probably won't ever forget, especially since it killed my PC |
| 19:07.04 | jleclanche | so |
| 19:07.08 | jleclanche | anyone else coming to fosdem? |
| 19:07.46 | jleclanche | also, anyone familiar with dbus? |
| 19:09.29 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se) |
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| 19:29.17 | Arrowmaster | fucking timewarners been out for over 12 hours now |
| 19:30.46 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 19:30.50 | Dagmar | Strange that no one's putting up blog stories about Time-Warner's "massive outage" |
| 19:31.01 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 19:32.47 | Kesava | obtrusive store buttons! you press escape and there's a shot button, covering the entire screen! |
| 19:32.49 | Kesava | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:32.58 | Kesava | people are silly. |
| 19:34.25 | pompy | https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151374219678921 i think that was the one with the 15 semis.. thats just gonna be lovely to clean up physically and insurance claim wise i bet. |
| 19:36.16 | Ackis | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2202118&p=12913205 muhahhaha |
| 19:37.28 | Dagmar | I don't even know how you had ntpdate running with ntpd present |
| 19:37.38 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 19:37.41 | Dagmar | Generally they use the same port so ntpdate will jsut tell you to bugger off |
| 19:39.09 | Dagmar | Ackis: I would suggest you only let _one_ of the mounting mechanisms have read-write access |
| 19:40.41 | Dagmar | Ackis: As to the rest of them, are you seriously trolling in volume or what? |
| 19:41.08 | Torhal | thinks Ackis would prefer to give write access with no read. |
| 19:41.31 | kd3 | write-only memory? seems logical |
| 19:42.02 | Torhal | Ackis is pretty hardcore. |
| 19:42.34 | pompy | badass |
| 19:43.13 | Dagmar | Question #7 is just begging to have systemd's "syslog replacement" shoved right into your tight little bottom |
| 19:43.34 | Semlar | neffi |
| 19:43.36 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-195-152.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 19:43.36 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 19:44.42 | Dagmar | Their use of ntpdate as a _system servicec_ is asinine tho |
| 19:46.29 | Semlar | i realize reversing threat behavior for tanks is just going to end up scaling up every mob you aren't in combat with |
| 19:46.50 | Semlar | how does threatplates do this |
| 19:47.06 | Dagmar | That stuff is part of system initialization, but it's useless to keep it engaged. |
| 19:49.35 | alestane | ~framexml |
| 19:49.36 | purl | Blizzard's UI for WoW. Export code/art from the client by using the wow.exe -console or open 'World of Warcraft.app' --args -console after game loads press ~ and enter commands "ExportInterfaceFiles code" and "ExportInterfaceFiles art" (must be used on login screen); or view it online at http://github.com/tekkub/wow-ui-source , http://wowprogramming.com/utils/xmlbrowser or http://wow.go-hero.net/framexml . |
| 19:50.59 | kd3 | huh. world+dog are logging into bnet right now |
| 19:51.42 | pompy | what |
| 19:52.02 | kd3 | ~wowalert |
| 19:52.03 | purl | http://launcher.worldofwarcraft.com/alert (US); http://status.wow-europe.com/en/alert (EU) [NB: Returns empty content unless there is an active alert] |
| 19:52.36 | kd3 | "We are aware of an issue that is affecting our authentication servers, which may result in failed or slow login attempts. We are currently investigating the cause and will provide updates as they are available." |
| 19:53.40 | pompy | on a tuesday! |
| 19:54.43 | Semlar | Kesava: do you know if there's any indicator on the plate to detect if you're in combat with it, if you don't have high threat |
| 19:55.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaylin (~Kaylin@aruba-master.seattlecentral.edu) |
| 19:59.37 | Neffi | So that was spam. Either it's a great coincidence, or whitehouse.gov is divulging emails |
| 20:00.01 | Neffi | Never a piece of spam on this account. Signed up for whitehouse.gov, 2 hours later I get spam. |
| 20:01.00 | Neffi | <Semlar> neffi <- hey semlar |
| 20:01.16 | Semlar | neffi |
| 20:01.36 | Neffi | what'cha workin on now? |
| 20:02.11 | Semlar | i want to reverse the threat behavior for tanks but i don't want it scaling up everything you're not in combat with |
| 20:02.25 | Neffi | More emphasized = less threat? |
| 20:02.32 | Neffi | (Clever, actually) |
| 20:02.32 | Semlar | for tanks yeah |
| 20:03.00 | Semlar | i'm trying to figure out if you can detect that a plate is in combat |
| 20:03.16 | Neffi | To be honest I think you're up against the limitations of what you're gonna do without building a some unit resolution system to get more concrete info |
| 20:03.19 | Kesava | there isn't as far as i know. there's some weird unreliable behaviour where the health bar's opacity is something below 1 but i couldn't work out exactly what that meant. |
| 20:03.25 | Kesava | idd |
| 20:03.35 | Semlar | i think the name turns red but that is buggy as hell |
| 20:05.26 | Semlar | granted that's better than nothing i suppose |
| 20:05.44 | Semlar | maybe |
| 20:06.24 | Semlar | could be worse |
| 20:06.34 | Neffi | So Microsoft joined the Open Compute project http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/microsoft-reveals-its-server-designs-and-releases-open-source-code/ |
| 20:06.38 | Neffi | Didn't expect that |
| 20:08.27 | Semlar | the name turning red seems like it has something to do with taking damage though |
| 20:08.34 | Semlar | it's not really an indicator of combat |
| 20:11.01 | Semlar | ah it looks like tidyplates doesn't actually account for this so that makes me feel better |
| 20:15.31 | Semlar | i guess i could check that they're missing health |
| 20:15.59 | Semlar | i doubt there's a good solution to this |
| 20:16.01 | Neffi | That's not really reliable |
| 20:16.46 | Neffi | http://i.imgur.com/j2nx07p.gif haha |
| 20:17.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (~arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 20:17.35 | *** join/#wowuidev g0urra (~g0urra@unaffiliated/gourra) |
| 20:17.50 | Arrowmaster | did any of my messages about Ackis's hilariously bad ubuntu thread come through? |
| 20:18.04 | nevcairiel | no |
| 20:18.12 | Arrowmaster | didnt think so |
| 20:19.35 | Arrowmaster | Ackis: why are you using syslog-ng instead of rsyslog, lol upstart, lol shits going to break apart completely if you try to do anything in ubuntu other than use the default settings |
| 20:19.45 | Arrowmaster | short version |
| 20:27.02 | zenzelezz | what's the "ng" in syslog-ng? |
| 20:27.41 | Dagmar | next generation, of course |
| 20:28.09 | jleclanche | more like "not great" |
| 20:28.17 | jleclanche | okay, but not great. |
| 20:28.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Kodiack (~Colto_000@97-88-226-121.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 20:29.09 | nevcairiel | the only thing i dont like is the config file syntax, its weird to set stuff up, otherwise never had issues with it, and it wasnt weird enough to make me investigate alternatives =P |
| 20:29.25 | jleclanche | i hate text-based logging |
| 20:29.27 | jleclanche | as silly as it sounds |
| 20:29.48 | Primer | hrmm? |
| 20:29.52 | Primer | syslog-ng rules |
| 20:30.04 | Primer | And what other form of logging is there? |
| 20:30.13 | nevcairiel | could log into a database i suppose |
| 20:30.38 | Primer | and that's not text? |
| 20:30.44 | nevcairiel | but i think syslog-ng can do that too |
| 20:30.50 | Primer | of course it can |
| 20:30.54 | jleclanche | Primer: binary logging |
| 20:30.56 | jleclanche | cf. systemd |
| 20:31.04 | Dagmar | fuck him |
| 20:31.06 | Primer | which is a log of...? |
| 20:31.09 | Primer | text? |
| 20:31.12 | Dagmar | Poettering bullshit |
| 20:31.23 | jleclanche | yes, its a binary log of text |
| 20:31.27 | jleclanche | which means |
| 20:31.29 | nevcairiel | the log is text no matter what |
| 20:31.31 | jleclanche | syntax highlighting |
| 20:31.34 | jleclanche | metadata |
| 20:31.42 | Dagmar | ...and bullshit. |
| 20:31.43 | jleclanche | proper timestamping |
| 20:31.54 | jleclanche | easy exports into sql dbs etc |
| 20:32.02 | Dagmar | PLaintext already has these features. |
| 20:32.05 | jleclanche | no. |
| 20:32.13 | nevcairiel | and i need a fancy tool, and cant just cat the logfile |
| 20:32.13 | Dagmar | Yes, it actually does. |
| 20:32.23 | nevcairiel | i like cating and greping log files! |
| 20:32.28 | Primer | same |
| 20:32.34 | Primer | and don't forget tail |
| 20:32.37 | Primer | tail -f |
| 20:33.01 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: typing journalctl is so much harder than typing cat /var/log/waitwhereisit |
| 20:33.07 | nevcairiel | yes it is |
| 20:33.08 | *** join/#wowuidev tem (~tardmrr@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 20:33.08 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tem] by ChanServ |
| 20:33.11 | jleclanche | oh shit, its been logrotated |
| 20:33.13 | jleclanche | i need to gunzip it |
| 20:33.21 | nevcairiel | zcat? :d |
| 20:33.24 | amro | + zgrep |
| 20:33.42 | Primer | bzgrep! |
| 20:33.53 | Primer | gzip is so quaint |
| 20:34.05 | Dagmar | Amazing how much easier it is when you know a few things |
| 20:34.20 | jleclanche | yeah, excuse me while I prefer "journalctl --since=yesterday" rather than parse myself multiple files in /var/log |
| 20:34.39 | nevcairiel | well you can go and make out with lennart next weekend then! |
| 20:34.45 | Dagmar | I prefer to just go to /var/log/archive and grab the one with the timestamp for yesterday |
| 20:35.12 | Dagmar | ...because I keep my own logfiles orderly instead of pretending it's an irredeemable mess and waiting for a grown-up to run it all through a binary obfuscator for me. |
| 20:35.46 | jleclanche | you guys really dont understand the concept of one-way conversion |
| 20:35.51 | jleclanche | binary to text? easy |
| 20:35.53 | jleclanche | journalctl > foo.txt |
| 20:35.59 | jleclanche | text to binary? |
| 20:36.00 | jleclanche | ... shit. |
| 20:36.17 | Primer | jleclanche: you don't understand! My way > your way, always! |
| 20:36.36 | jleclanche | heres the thing |
| 20:36.58 | Dagmar | I've no idea why she has a windex bottle with sparkles as the cursor |
| 20:37.01 | Dagmar | wrong chan |
| 20:37.09 | Neffi | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a3/Thing_v2_1_coverart.jpg/250px-Thing_v2_1_coverart.jpg |
| 20:37.12 | amro | Dagmar: but do go on |
| 20:37.23 | Dagmar | jleclanche: Actually, we _do_ understand one-way conversion |
| 20:37.34 | jleclanche | really? |
| 20:37.39 | Dagmar | amro: If your first name is Nadia then LOL. |
| 20:37.40 | jleclanche | doesnt look that way to me |
| 20:37.57 | jleclanche | i bet you use spaces for indentation, too. |
| 20:38.13 | Dagmar | jleclanche: What we're all waiting for with baited breath is for them to decide "Oh wait, we screwed up and now we have to change the format"... at which point you will have an even bigger problem. |
| 20:38.13 | Neffi | here we go |
| 20:38.26 | amro | Dagmar: no but my neighbor from 15 years ago was called Nadia |
| 20:38.33 | Dagmar | In the meantime, you have not even solved the original problem, which is keeping the logs tidy in the first place. |
| 20:38.34 | jleclanche | Dagmar: how does that NOT happen on plaintext? |
| 20:38.42 | jleclanche | how is not not a THOUSAND times worse on plaintext |
| 20:38.57 | nevcairiel | why does it matter on plaintext, you can still read it the same as before |
| 20:38.59 | Dagmar | jleclanche: Well, aside from a minor change from ASCII to UTF-WTF, my syslogs have been in the same format for about 22 years now |
| 20:39.08 | Dagmar | Still just as readable as they were initially. |
| 20:39.45 | jleclanche | congratulation, the software you have decided not to change its log format |
| 20:39.54 | Dagmar | ...except now all the tools that have already been developed to do things to those logs don't work without an intermediary layer to deal with Poetteringitis |
| 20:39.55 | jleclanche | now, how can that NOT happen on binary file formats? |
| 20:39.55 | jleclanche | mmh? |
| 20:40.03 | jleclanche | right, of course |
| 20:40.23 | jleclanche | heres the thing. maybe your 200KLOC library is able to take 10 mins to parse whatever is in /var/log, taking into account hundreds of different timestamp formats, gzipping, logrotate, .old files, backup files... binary files let me actually do all that work in no time, export it to sql, mess with it, do proper analytics tool on it |
| 20:40.27 | Dagmar | Issue number one, the format has always been: timestamp, source, _freetext_ |
| 20:40.45 | Dagmar | The timestamp format has always been the same. Localtime. |
| 20:41.00 | Dagmar | gzipped files are trivial to read through. |
| 20:41.41 | Dagmar | ...and I don't have to uncook it from some binary format a popinjay came up with in order to push them into sql tables and perform whatever bizarre statistical analyisis I might thin kI ned |
| 20:42.02 | jleclanche | "Why don't we just print our logs and archive them on paper to make space on disk? If we ever need them again, we can OCR!" |
| 20:42.05 | jleclanche | your reasoning ^ |
| 20:42.08 | Dagmar | Nope. |
| 20:42.10 | jleclanche | with a dose of hyperbole |
| 20:42.14 | jleclanche | but same reasoning nonetheless |
| 20:42.23 | Dagmar | It's _simple_. There is _no_ added complexity. |
| 20:42.40 | jleclanche | you want to know simple? |
| 20:42.42 | Dagmar | Either you make the effort to get logging under control, or you get swamped and have a grown-up do it for you. |
| 20:42.43 | jleclanche | journalctl > log.txt |
| 20:42.44 | Dagmar | It's that simple. |
| 20:42.49 | jleclanche | heres your text log |
| 20:42.53 | jleclanche | in the same format as syslog, with that. |
| 20:43.08 | Dagmar | So then why are you putting it into that other format in the first place. |
| 20:43.11 | Dagmar | It's unnecessary. |
| 20:43.18 | jleclanche | its fucking necessary. |
| 20:43.28 | jleclanche | because you get every fucking benefit ive mentioned |
| 20:43.30 | Dagmar | Because reasons? |
| 20:43.35 | jleclanche | EXPORTS |
| 20:43.36 | jleclanche | analytics |
| 20:43.45 | Dagmar | Plaintext doesn't stop any of those things. |
| 20:43.47 | nevcairiel | its what poettering does, he takes simple workflows, and invents a complicated way to re-do them and then sells it to hipsters |
| 20:43.55 | Dagmar | nevcariel++ |
| 20:43.58 | jleclanche | ... |
| 20:44.03 | jleclanche | what the fuck guys |
| 20:44.08 | nevcairiel | hence, adys is a hipster |
| 20:44.13 | jleclanche | you take a piece of software and insult it based on its author |
| 20:44.37 | jleclanche | i dont get it |
| 20:44.40 | nevcairiel | nah, the two go well together |
| 20:44.43 | jleclanche | binary logging gives you text logging |
| 20:44.44 | nevcairiel | unncessary |
| 20:44.46 | Dagmar | jleclanche: keep in mind you're making this argument to a guy who has been maintaining syslogs almost as a religious ritual for two decades and is generally responsible for the "dealing with" of same from at least 50 machines all the time |
| 20:44.48 | jleclanche | text logging doesnt give you binary logging |
| 20:44.51 | jleclanche | i want binary logging |
| 20:44.53 | jleclanche | you want text logging |
| 20:44.58 | jleclanche | do you see which solution satisfies us both? |
| 20:45.01 | Primer | No, I just want logging |
| 20:45.12 | Dagmar | ...and by that I mean a minimum of 50 machines I saw back before 2000 |
| 20:45.19 | Dagmar | Now it's more like 400 |
| 20:45.28 | Primer | and syslog is what I know, so it's what I use. I've never found any need to ever use anything else |
| 20:45.31 | amro | jleclanche: you can do text->binary |
| 20:45.36 | jleclanche | jesus |
| 20:45.39 | jleclanche | you do text->binary |
| 20:45.47 | jleclanche | you fucking do it. you implement it |
| 20:45.50 | jleclanche | you write the damn libs |
| 20:45.58 | amro | relax a little |
| 20:46.03 | Primer | today I had a client claim they weren't able to use our site. I have their IP. ssh syslog; cd /var/log/aggregate/year/month/day; grep $IP apache_access |
| 20:46.04 | Dagmar | That work's already been done. It's called "regular syslog", man. |
| 20:46.07 | jleclanche | you teach those libs' APIs to the people implementing the clients |
| 20:46.16 | jleclanche | you then teach how those clients work to everyone who ever uses them |
| 20:46.21 | Primer | oh look, tons of HTTP 200's |
| 20:46.27 | Primer | seems they're able to access the site just fine |
| 20:46.34 | amro | jleclanche: how is that any different from directly logging to binary? |
| 20:46.38 | Primer | puts feet up on desk |
| 20:46.39 | amro | you'd still have to conform to a standard |
| 20:46.42 | amro | if you want interoperability |
| 20:46.54 | amro | and if you conform to a standard, then you can also just do text->binary |
| 20:47.06 | jleclanche | amro: whatever benefits you think there are from text logging, you get those by doing binary->text which is TRIVIAL |
| 20:47.10 | jleclanche | text->binary is NOT trivial |
| 20:47.11 | Dagmar | binary logging doesn't make orderly logging happen. |
| 20:47.20 | Dagmar | orderly logging has to happen _first_. |
| 20:47.22 | amro | jleclanche: it's just as trivial as writing the binary logs in the first place |
| 20:47.31 | jleclanche | what? |
| 20:47.45 | Dagmar | Actually text to binary _is_ trivial, so long as the format is documented. |
| 20:47.55 | amro | how is logging to binary easier than converting to binary? |
| 20:47.55 | Dagmar | It's just not particularly needed. |
| 20:48.00 | amro | if you know how to write to binary, the rest is easy |
| 20:48.05 | amro | reading the text logs isn't hard |
| 20:48.20 | jleclanche | Dagmar: you know full well the format differs from one app to the other |
| 20:48.28 | Dagmar | jleclanche: ...and binary logging changes this how? |
| 20:48.39 | Dagmar | By forcing all the apps to change their format? |
| 20:48.39 | jleclanche | binary logging enforces a single format |
| 20:48.40 | amro | jleclanche: in that case with binary logging you'd need a tool for each app |
| 20:48.47 | amro | it doesn't, really |
| 20:48.51 | jleclanche | erm |
| 20:48.59 | jleclanche | im really not advocating for standalone binary logging |
| 20:49.06 | jleclanche | thats just as stupid if not even more |
| 20:49.11 | amro | if you can force all the app writers to use a specific binary format, then you can also force them to use a specific text format |
| 20:49.11 | Dagmar | ...becuase what you're saying is now every app has to change what it's doing, for the same result as before the change. |
| 20:49.47 | Dagmar | Largely everything uses a format specific to itself. It's not like they're all writing a bunch of stuff where the items are in a new random ordering each day. |
| 20:49.49 | jleclanche | Dagmar: unless you're writing in shell, logging is 99% of the time at a lower level than you what write your app with |
| 20:49.52 | nevcairiel | didnt we just talk about syslog, those text log files have a rather predefined format, no million variations to worry about |
| 20:50.19 | Dagmar | jleclanche: Logging is also very very easy, and "done". |
| 20:50.35 | Dagmar | Even if you don't have a way to get at syslog.h and company directly, there's a shell utility called logger. |
| 20:50.39 | Dagmar | Does the job fine. |
| 20:50.49 | Dagmar | I used to use it to torment admins |
| 20:50.50 | Primer | uses logger extensively |
| 20:51.05 | jleclanche | that is exactly why i said unless you write in shell, logging is at a lower level than what you write your app with |
| 20:51.16 | Primer | I use it to torment my co-workers |
| 20:51.22 | Dagmar | That's not actually making much sense. |
| 20:51.36 | Dagmar | Perl and python both have a pretty standard lib that's a wrapper for the syslog functions |
| 20:51.47 | jleclanche | thats what im saying.. |
| 20:51.53 | Dagmar | C doesn't even bear mentioning since it's just anothe include statement |
| 20:52.04 | Dagmar | syslog is already readily accessible to practically every language |
| 20:52.12 | jleclanche | thats exactly what im saying :\ |
| 20:52.28 | Dagmar | So why the need to force everything to use the Poettering'd format? |
| 20:52.41 | jleclanche | i said it before |
| 20:52.48 | jleclanche | whatever benefits you get with plain text over binary |
| 20:52.58 | Kesava | i don't like sysvinit :( |
| 20:53.03 | jleclanche | you get them by doing the trivial binary->text "journalctl > log.txt" |
| 20:53.16 | Dagmar | Kesava: Deal with it. even Slackware uses it (to the suprise of many a Slackware user) |
| 20:53.55 | Dagmar | jleclanche: This is assuming Poettering doesn't change his mind in a year or two and decide the format needs to be refactored. |
| 20:54.18 | Dagmar | Kesava: You kinda don't want to go back to BSD init. Upstart's a decent advancement |
| 20:54.28 | Kesava | well I like systemd... |
| 20:54.42 | Kesava | I mean i'm using arch atm so I'll just go with whatever they decide to use in the long run |
| 20:54.55 | jleclanche | Dagmar: Fuck this ad-hominem bullshit |
| 20:55.06 | Dagmar | There's no ad-hominem here |
| 20:55.06 | jleclanche | Dagmar: i could be saying the same retarded thing about syslog and it would be a thousand times worse |
| 20:55.27 | jleclanche | today you learned: backwards incompatible changes are backwards incompatible |
| 20:55.28 | jleclanche | congratss |
| 20:55.43 | Dagmar | ...and plaintext is forward-compatible. |
| 20:55.44 | nevcairiel | the point is, you can always read a text format, you can't read a binary format if the tool moved on |
| 20:55.57 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: you dont read logs |
| 20:56.02 | jleclanche | sysadmins read logs to figure out whats wrong |
| 20:56.06 | Dagmar | Yes, we do. |
| 20:56.07 | jleclanche | everyone else parses them |
| 20:56.21 | amro | what's wrong with parsing text logs? |
| 20:56.34 | Dagmar | Sysadmins who like to do other things use scripts to read the logs |
| 20:56.37 | jleclanche | amro: read a few lines above please |
| 20:56.45 | jleclanche | jesus Dagmar |
| 20:56.45 | amro | jleclanche: I did |
| 20:56.49 | jleclanche | you say text is forward-compatible |
| 20:56.54 | Dagmar | Because it *is* |
| 20:57.01 | jleclanche | its only forward compatible for human eyes |
| 20:57.03 | Dagmar | I have never had a problem reading old logs |
| 20:57.06 | jleclanche | NOT for parsers |
| 20:57.15 | Dagmar | I have never had a problem _parsing_ old logs, either |
| 20:57.18 | amro | right, but binary is also not forward-compatible in that regard |
| 20:57.26 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 20:57.26 | jleclanche | Dagmar: because their format havent fucking changed |
| 20:57.35 | jleclanche | i will never have a problem parsing binary logs if their format doesnt change either |
| 20:57.44 | Dagmar | At this point I'm actually generally waving around a banner reading "DESTROY ALL LOGS AFTER 90 DAYS" actually. |
| 20:57.53 | Dagmar | "if their format doesn't change" |
| 20:57.56 | jleclanche | sigh |
| 20:58.06 | Dagmar | ...and that's only the tip of that particular iceberg. |
| 20:58.09 | jleclanche | you cant attack journalctl for having a format that might change, and ignore the fact that syslog also have a format that might change |
| 20:58.16 | jleclanche | and for parsers, one is worse than the other: guess which one |
| 20:58.26 | Dagmar | Except syslog doesn't have a format that changes. It's plaintext. Always has been plaintext. |
| 20:58.35 | jleclanche | plaintext has a format |
| 20:58.57 | jleclanche | "human readable" is not the definition of a format, its a property |
| 20:59.13 | jleclanche | and while humans might read old logs just fine if their formats change, parsers wont |
| 20:59.17 | jleclanche | which is a problem for analytics |
| 20:59.22 | Dagmar | "human readable" is also not a property of binary logging formats. |
| 20:59.41 | Amarande | jleclanche: otoh, consider some other matters |
| 20:59.42 | jleclanche | binary logging formats let you get a human readable format |
| 20:59.43 | Dagmar | Right, so again, you're blaming the wrong thing |
| 20:59.44 | Amarande | consider, say, system failuers |
| 20:59.46 | Amarande | *failures |
| 20:59.48 | jleclanche | the one you prefer |
| 21:00.01 | Amarande | a binary log requires a PROGRAM to read, you can't read it on your own |
| 21:00.11 | Kesava | a noobs view: i am kinda bothered by not being able to do cat /var/log/lastlog because then what if i don't have access to journalctl |
| 21:00.13 | Dagmar | Binary logging is not a substitute for keeping the logs orderly in the first place. |
| 21:00.16 | Kesava | but then i don't run any big servers so eh |
| 21:00.21 | Amarande | so if the system fails, you can't just mount the FS and go poking around at it with a text viewer to find out the trouble like you could with a text log |
| 21:00.38 | Amarande | also, if a text log suffers a small amount of corruption, your human mind can probably STILL READ IT JUST FINE |
| 21:00.53 | Amarande | whereas if a binary log suffers a small amount of corruption, there's a good chance you can't pick out much of anything useful from it at all |
| 21:01.14 | jleclanche | Dagmar: im not blaming anything, im commenting on your ad hominem of journalctl about poettering who would "change his mind and change the format". the same exact thing can be said of syslog, with one difference in favour of binary formats: IF that were to happen, it would easily be recognized by parsers. it would require extreme complexity for syslog however |
| 21:01.24 | Dagmar | That's not an ad-hominem. |
| 21:01.38 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3|hate`net (~Kaydeethr@unaffiliated/kd3) |
| 21:01.42 | Amarande | it's the same matter as Windows registery vs. Linux /etc, if a file in /etc gets mangled, you can usually recover at least some of it (because basically everything in /etc is text files that you can easily read) and the rest of it is entirely unaffected |
| 21:01.43 | jleclanche | "journalctl sux cause poettering" is the definition of ad hominem |
| 21:01.45 | Dagmar | ...and no, it can't be said of syslog because this is a subject that's come up before and hey we're _still_ using plaintext. |
| 21:01.55 | Dagmar | jleclanche: That's _you_ typing that |
| 21:01.59 | Amarande | if something in your WIndows registery gets mangled, it can result in the rest of the registry being no good as well and you get to do a full reinstall of everything to get back where you were |
| 21:02.07 | Amarande | binary blobs just don't make sense sometimes :S |
| 21:02.12 | jleclanche | Dagmar: "plaintext" is not a fucking format |
| 21:02.22 | Dagmar | Poettering's got a history of needlessly complicating things and then sort of wandering off when the interesting 90% is done |
| 21:02.26 | Kesava | oh man i love blobs |
| 21:02.29 | amro | performance is the only benefit of a binary format |
| 21:02.34 | Amarande | especially nowadays, when CPU and storage are plentiful except on mobile platforms |
| 21:03.20 | Arrowmaster | windows reg is special, being binary isnt the problem |
| 21:03.24 | amro | so I don't understand why not just do something like tail -f /var/log/some.log | store-in-binary |
| 21:03.26 | amro | problem solved |
| 21:03.34 | jleclanche | amro: it is not. metadata is the major advantage of binary formats, and that has a lot of uses. it can easily be exported to other formats, which cant be said of text (most text formats are lossy. and if they're not, they tend not to be human readable or have extremely little metadata) |
| 21:03.36 | Amarande | Arrowmaster: partially it is, because if it was text, you could easily recover all but the corrupted portion |
| 21:03.46 | Dagmar | I can apply metadata to plaintext with a perl script. |
| 21:03.53 | Dagmar | I don't need to store it in the logs. |
| 21:04.10 | nevcairiel | its not like syslog has that much metadata, the logging information available is rather limited in the first place |
| 21:04.22 | jleclanche | so you're suggesting a log file, and a metadata file, in parallel? |
| 21:04.26 | jleclanche | how is that not hell on earth to parse? |
| 21:04.28 | Dagmar | No, just a plaintext file. |
| 21:04.39 | Dagmar | ...because it's all serialized data anyway. |
| 21:04.55 | Dagmar | In practice there is not a huge _need_ for metadata. |
| 21:05.02 | jleclanche | analytics... |
| 21:05.09 | Dagmar | We're not logging the complex sexual relationships of Ringworld lineages. |
| 21:05.30 | jleclanche | theres a multi-billion dollar company out there thats ruling the world out of ads and analytics and you guys are dismissing it like it's a kid's toy |
| 21:05.34 | Dagmar | There's when someone did sommething, where they did it, who did it, and what they did it to, and not a whole lot else involved |
| 21:05.45 | Dagmar | ...and this is the order the vast majority of things that log to syslog log in. |
| 21:05.56 | nevcairiel | jleclanche: we're still talking about logging the output of syslog calls, that thing doesnt have all that much metadata |
| 21:06.07 | amro | jleclanche: just what kind of metadata are you talking about? |
| 21:06.20 | amro | chances are, I'll process the log and store results somewhere |
| 21:06.22 | Dagmar | what the hell does ad revenue have to do with syslog |
| 21:06.27 | amro | I don't need to store the results in the logs |
| 21:06.55 | Dagmar | Is there some secret plan to show me relevant AdWords when I'm going over the ossec log summaries? |
| 21:07.31 | jleclanche | im not getting my very simple point across here. so either i suck at explaining, or im horribly in the wrong. in either case, this discussion is useless and stops here |
| 21:07.40 | Dagmar | Probably right on many counts. |
| 21:07.42 | Dagmar | No worries. |
| 21:07.51 | Amarande | Arrowmaster: the reason that discussions like this have me pooh-poohing the Windows Registry vs a text format is pretty simple |
| 21:08.27 | Amarande | once again, let's say you create systems A and B. they are identical, except that A uses text files for important stuff and B uses binary |
| 21:08.41 | Dagmar | The other warning sign in place is that Mr. Poettering is ignoring a long-held and long-shown-to-be-useful principle of Unix design. K.I.S.S. |
| 21:09.09 | Dagmar | Make small tools that do simple things _well_, and stick them together in order to create complex, but highly reliable and fault-tolerating systems. |
| 21:09.11 | Amarande | if something happens to corrupt system A's data, you can generally recover, through simple text editing and human eye, all but the actual corrupted portion (which is in most cases a small piece that shouldn't be too hard to rebuild either from human memory or automated regeneration) |
| 21:09.30 | Dagmar | init's role has no real need to also be the system logger |
| 21:09.42 | Amarande | if something happens to corrupt system B's data, you're entirely at the mercy as to whether the programs that are a necessary intermediary to understanding the binary data can work around the error to recover much |
| 21:09.44 | Dagmar | There is no real benefit in tying these threads of activity together. |
| 21:10.11 | Amarande | IOW, text files = possibility of human recovery; binary files = entirely at the mercy of if it can still be done programmatically |
| 21:10.29 | jleclanche | Dagmar: systemd is not the system logger in a systemd-based machine. a subcomponent of systemd (journald) is able to handle logging in a smoother, easier way |
| 21:10.38 | Amarande | you can still process text files programmatically, as well, but you really *cannot* process binary files by the human mind |
| 21:10.49 | Amarande | which means that the binary files seem to be at a distinct disadvantage. |
| 21:10.51 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: ive never been able to get logs from sysvinit when i see an error flash up quickly before a bunch of other stuff goes by and X starts |
| 21:10.55 | Dagmar | jleclanche: It needs to be a "subcomponent" why exactly?/ |
| 21:11.10 | Primer | also keep in mind that a text file is ultimately binary, in that it resides on a computer |
| 21:11.20 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: So check /var/log/Xfree.0.log |
| 21:11.21 | Primer | without a computer, you have nothing |
| 21:11.42 | Amarande | Primer: true, OTOH, text files are ultimately a byte-by-byte matter, though |
| 21:11.46 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: thats only X's log, not the log of stuff before X started |
| 21:11.47 | Primer | unless you actually end up printing them to save on disk space, as was suggested earlier :) |
| 21:11.47 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Although frankly I would kinda like to see people make a lot less casual use of STDERR |
| 21:11.53 | Amarande | whereas binary files usually depend on multi-byte structures |
| 21:12.00 | jleclanche | Dagmar: systemd handles daemons during their lifetime |
| 21:12.04 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Depends on what it was. |
| 21:12.11 | Dagmar | jleclanche: So does init. |
| 21:12.15 | Amarande | which is part of where the corruption recovery scenarios come in |
| 21:12.41 | jleclanche | Dagmar: my point is that journald being a systemd component is easier, makes for better integration |
| 21:12.51 | Amarande | if, for instance, "this is some data" turns into "this is some deta", you're easily going to be able to tell that it should have been "data" and fix it |
| 21:12.51 | Dagmar | They do not "need" to be integrated |
| 21:12.54 | Dagmar | That's a fucking buzzword. |
| 21:13.00 | jleclanche | where did i say need? |
| 21:13.11 | Dagmar | They're doing separate and just about as unrelated as it gets tasks. |
| 21:13.16 | jleclanche | i said it is easier and makes for better integration |
| 21:13.21 | jleclanche | and it does |
| 21:13.33 | Dagmar | Okay, so if you didn't imply need then you must have been implying that they were needlessly integrated. |
| 21:13.33 | Amarande | now if you encode "this is some data" into some binary format that depends on multi-byte structure and a byte gets corrupted, you might not even be able to translate it back into even part of the sentence, depending on how it is encoded and how fault tolerant the programs available for the format are |
| 21:13.45 | jleclanche | Dagmar: where did I say "needless"? |
| 21:13.49 | jleclanche | its an improvement |
| 21:13.52 | Dagmar | There's one or the other. |
| 21:13.57 | jleclanche | improvements are not *needed*, but they are not needless |
| 21:14.04 | jleclanche | they are welcome |
| 21:14.08 | Dagmar | OKay so if you believe it to be an improvement, then it must be needed. |
| 21:14.15 | jleclanche | what? |
| 21:14.36 | Amarande | or for a worse case, let's say "this is some data" in your text file turned into "$E#*(#@s some data" ... now you only have task with trying to figure out what words came before "some data", and you at least have those words, in any case |
| 21:14.37 | Dagmar | You're making a circular argument without realizing it. |
| 21:14.48 | jleclanche | i could go for a chicken barbecue right now, but i dont *need* it |
| 21:14.51 | jleclanche | i'd welcome it |
| 21:14.56 | Dagmar | "Integration" of syslog and init functions doesn't get us anything but a larger pile of bugs |
| 21:15.04 | jleclanche | bull fucking shit |
| 21:15.14 | jleclanche | put up sources if you're going to say things like that |
| 21:15.21 | Amarande | if correspondingly the first half got mangled in your beloved binary format, you'll be lucky if the binary parser manages to get through the corrupt bit in a condition that even lets it figure out that the remainder said "some data" |
| 21:15.21 | Dagmar | What's the direct, tangible benefit then? |
| 21:15.35 | jleclanche | Dagmar: none to you, that doesnt make it irrelevant |
| 21:15.40 | jleclanche | but you dont write daemons, you use thelm |
| 21:15.45 | jleclanche | you spit on poettering's work but he has incredibly improved the ecosystem |
| 21:15.47 | Dagmar | Actually, I *do* write daemons. |
| 21:15.57 | Primer | I write demons |
| 21:16.01 | jleclanche | then maybe you should have a hand at trying journald? |
| 21:16.11 | Primer | asking for them to torment people I don't like |
| 21:16.12 | Dagmar | Why on earth would I want to? |
| 21:16.19 | Dagmar | System logging is already s solved problem. |
| 21:16.22 | jleclanche | because then you'd know what the fuck you're talking about? |
| 21:16.41 | Dagmar | 20 years of running shit on the intenet says I acutally do rather know what I'm talking about. |
| 21:17.09 | Primer | OMG 20 YEARS?! YOU MUST BE OLD! |
| 21:17.17 | Dagmar | Yes, it happens |
| 21:17.22 | jleclanche | you can be tim berners god damn lee for all i care, if you've never used journald, you dont get to spit on it just because its poettering's work and magically be right |
| 21:17.23 | Primer | it's ok, I'm old too |
| 21:17.30 | Primer | and I bet I'm older than you! |
| 21:17.31 | nevcairiel | if systemd were so ultimately great, there wouldn't be so many discussions amongst the distributions and so many people being opposed |
| 21:17.41 | Dagmar | nev has a point |
| 21:17.51 | Dagmar | This isn't a matter of a bunch of kids running around having flame wars about it |
| 21:17.56 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: if sysvinit didnt suck so god damn hard, people who actually make the switch to systemd wouldnt be happy |
| 21:18.13 | nevcairiel | that argument doesnt make much sense |
| 21:18.17 | jleclanche | neither does yours |
| 21:18.18 | Dagmar | The old heads, the guys who actually built most of this stuff in the first place, have essentially the same viewpoint we're expressing |
| 21:18.21 | nevcairiel | sure does |
| 21:18.39 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: no, your logic fails when you realize people can talk a lot about things they have no clue about |
| 21:18.43 | jleclanche | case in point: Dagmar right now |
| 21:19.06 | Dagmar | Syslog only requries so much complexity, and adding extra complexity makes it harder to keep it future proof as well as requires more effort to get that data into and through other containers and mechanisms |
| 21:19.22 | nevcairiel | you make it sound like systemd/journald solved all the problems in the world, but if that was the case, then why doesn't every distribution adopt it like right now - assuming the maintainers actually do know what they are doing there |
| 21:19.37 | Dagmar | jleclanche: I have probably spent more time deploying abd debugging systems than you have spent masturbating. Ever. |
| 21:19.43 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: because adoption rate is limited? |
| 21:20.06 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: that is, limited by factors outside of anyone's hands |
| 21:20.07 | Dagmar | I'm not trying to be judgemental about it or anything, but to act like I don't have any valuable views on the matter is fucking _insanity_ |
| 21:20.20 | jleclanche | Dagmar: im not saying you dont have valuable views |
| 21:20.28 | Dagmar | Dude you just said that very thing |
| 21:20.36 | jleclanche | no, small difference |
| 21:20.37 | Arrowmaster | your both stubburn jackasses, get over it |
| 21:20.43 | Primer | you're* |
| 21:20.47 | jleclanche | im saying you cant just talk about journald like you know it when you've never used it |
| 21:21.00 | Dagmar | Uhh... I looked into what they were doing fairly carefully. |
| 21:21.10 | jleclanche | great, now try it |
| 21:21.12 | Dagmar | No. |
| 21:21.20 | jleclanche | this is what im talking about, right here. |
| 21:21.27 | Dagmar | I have a least effort solution in place. |
| 21:21.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|work (cc32711d@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
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| 21:21.47 | Dagmar | I'm not going to put a _more_ complex solution in place without a tangible benefit. |
| 21:22.00 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: to further my earlier point: git has been widely adopted, but it has taken years |
| 21:22.09 | Dagmar | Except not everyone's using git. |
| 21:22.14 | jleclanche | adoption isnt immediate just because its massively better |
| 21:22.20 | Arrowmaster | yeah some people are still using bzr |
| 21:22.27 | jleclanche | exactly |
| 21:22.32 | Dagmar | Partial adoption also doesn't convey superiority |
| 21:22.33 | Arrowmaster | sinking ship there |
| 21:22.46 | jleclanche | Dagmar: yes, i agree |
| 21:23.00 | Esamynn|work | git has some advantages, but it also have the primary drawback of being more complcated |
| 21:23.00 | Dagmar | There's also hg, svn, cvs, and some people are actually still kicking around with rcs used over NFS shares. |
| 21:23.00 | jleclanche | but thats why im saying, you cant just say "if it's better, why isnt everyone using it?" |
| 21:23.05 | Esamynn|work | and thus more dificult to use |
| 21:23.11 | Esamynn|work | (in that it is easier to screw up) |
| 21:23.18 | jleclanche | yeah git is harder than cvs, definitely . |
| 21:23.22 | Amarande | hg? I don't think I ever heard of that one |
| 21:23.22 | jleclanche | (urgh) |
| 21:23.26 | jleclanche | Amarande: mercurial |
| 21:23.28 | Dagmar | Mercurial. |
| 21:23.39 | jleclanche | heres one you havent heard about: mnt |
| 21:23.40 | Dagmar | The best way ever to accidentally redact multiple repositories. ;) |
| 21:24.04 | Dagmar | When you fuck up with hg, it's time to just burn the disks and start over. heh |
| 21:24.29 | nevcairiel | monotone? that system is fucking insane |
| 21:24.33 | jleclanche | heh |
| 21:24.41 | jleclanche | pidgin uses monoton |
| 21:24.45 | jleclanche | or used, whichever |
| 21:25.08 | Amarande | also, do I assign far too much value to the idea of recovering partially corrupt data, when making the text vs. binary argument? |
| 21:25.13 | Arrowmaster | does anybody still use bitkeeper? |
| 21:25.14 | Amarande | it seems like there are two arguments to that one, too |
| 21:25.27 | Dagmar | Amarande : There are or I'd have probably joined you on that one |
| 21:25.34 | Amarande | on the one hand (which is why I make such a point out of the idea), partially corrupt data occurs often, and often without warning |
| 21:25.38 | nevcairiel | Arrowmaster: for every vcs there is people that are using it still |
| 21:25.56 | Amarande | because that's what things like the first signs of equipment failure will cause, as will things like transient power failures or unexpected OS crashes |
| 21:25.59 | Dagmar | ONce corruption is there you're kind of fucked for anything but informal analysis |
| 21:25.59 | jleclanche | Amarande: data corruption is one of the things where text logs win hands down |
| 21:26.07 | Dagmar | I worry about shit like "What am I going to show a judge" |
| 21:26.11 | nevcairiel | especially gnu projects are stuck in the previous to last century, although they are typically stuck on cvs :P |
| 21:26.31 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: sigh, most of the xdg specs are still on cvs |
| 21:26.35 | Arrowmaster | nevcairiel: they shifted some to bzr.... |
| 21:26.39 | Amarande | in other words, you get partially corrupt data *often*, therefore, recovering from it seems like a very good thing to be sure of |
| 21:27.07 | Amarande | on the *other* hand, you get the argument that you should NEVER try to recover partially corrupt data, because that's what data that's been tampered with by an attacker will appear as, and that's how it climbs into the rest of your system and gets cosy |
| 21:27.11 | Arrowmaster | if you are getting corrupted data locally you have more important problems to solve |
| 21:27.19 | Dagmar | Amarande: One of the things somme of the few advancements added to "normal" syslog. TCP sockets. They cut *way* down on that |
| 21:28.03 | Amarande | in other words, do you prioritise being able to better deal with transient power failures, OS crashes, equipment in the first stages of failure, etc., or do you prioritise OMG AN ATTACKER? |
| 21:28.03 | Dagmar | Out of order packet arrival from UDP gets lulsy with respect to syslog |
| 21:28.21 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: im worried about it; the guys maintaining it will probably die before they get the courage to switch them to a reasonable vcs, and then we'll be left with a bunch of people who have no more idea how to make cvs work than how to decipher the phaistos disc |
| 21:28.26 | nevcairiel | Dagmar: if such things matter, you dont use UDP, period |
| 21:28.33 | Dagmar | I prioritize maintaining my ability to fire someone or to send a motherfucker to jail. |
| 21:28.39 | Dagmar | nevcairiel: Exactly. |
| 21:28.48 | Amarande | the way some security experts suggest, we should be prioritising "OMG AN ATTACKER" to the point where we need to be willing to reduce our computers to barely-functional at a moment's notice if that's what's necessary to mount a defence |
| 21:29.02 | nevcairiel | jleclanche: someone will figure out how to do a git import, its not that hard :D |
| 21:29.11 | Dagmar | Amarande: That's a very short-sighted practice |
| 21:29.12 | jleclanche | hah |
| 21:29.15 | Amarande | (but we see the flaw of that, and that's that an attacker can easily KEEP you at "barely functional bastion mode" and never let you actually DO anything) |
| 21:29.20 | nevcairiel | (although git history looks rather funky when imported from cvs) |
| 21:29.50 | nevcairiel | fucking lack of atomic commits |
| 21:30.20 | Esamynn|work | I have NEVER encountered CVS in the wild |
| 21:30.25 | Esamynn|work | I pray to god I never do |
| 21:30.29 | nevcairiel | grats |
| 21:30.47 | Amarande | Esamynn: Undernet used it for their ircd development many years ago, I don't know if they've switched or not |
| 21:30.52 | nevcairiel | first open source project i worked on was using cvs until they migrated to subversion, and that was like in 2000 |
| 21:30.55 | Dagmar | Amarande: That's why you don't let Guns Guards & Dogs guys dictate your CYBERSEKURITEE policy |
| 21:31.10 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: stick to somewhat recent (10 years old at most) projects and youll probably never encounter it |
| 21:31.11 | Esamynn|work | precisely, why would you stick with cvs these days over svn? |
| 21:31.15 | Dagmar | "Lockdown mode" is sensible for a physical facility. |
| 21:31.18 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: laziness |
| 21:31.22 | Dagmar | Almost never makes any damn sense for a data store |
| 21:31.25 | jleclanche | theres a cost to switching |
| 21:31.39 | nevcairiel | I had to checkout from cvs just recently when i needed a more recent gnu binutils then they had in release tarballs |
| 21:31.40 | Amarande | also, prioritising maintaining your ability to fire someone or to send a mf'er to jail could be nearly as poor a philosophy |
| 21:31.47 | Dagmar | Esamynn: If it satisfies all the needs |
| 21:31.54 | Esamynn|work | jleclanche: I would argue the precise opposite actually |
| 21:31.54 | Esamynn|work | true laziness is about minimizing overall effort |
| 21:32.05 | Amarande | because, once again, as with the Guns, Guards, & Dogs security lockdown zealot, the problem is you're placing priority on punishing wrongdoers rather than optimising the system's rightdoing ability :) |
| 21:32.30 | Amarande | in other words, the common human trap, that our first priority is to block the bad guys, and pursuing the goals of the good guys must eternally be the beta goal |
| 21:32.31 | Dagmar | Amarande: No, physical security models are different. A temporary interruption is not as big of a deal. |
| 21:32.50 | Dagmar | Physical security models _much_ more often result in non-reversible actions. |
| 21:32.57 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: there is no sense to starting a project in cvs (hasnt been for a very long time; arguably never has been). but if you have been using cvs for 10+ years and are the only maintainer on the one project that gets one commit a month at its peak ... |
| 21:33.00 | Dagmar | Like people being shot in the face or burned alive. |
| 21:33.20 | Dagmar | Electronic security models can just restore shit from recent backups and replay journals. |
| 21:33.45 | Dagmar | So... computational security models place Availability on equal footing with Integrity and Confidentiality. |
| 21:33.47 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: maybe cvs makes you waste 10 minutes per commit. but if you commit twice a year, it would take you thirty years to justify the hour spent figuring out how to import your cvs project into git |
| 21:33.55 | Esamynn|work | here's another truth: absolutes simply do not work in the really really world |
| 21:34.22 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: and "commit twice a year" is actually a high number for most projects held in CVS today |
| 21:34.31 | jleclanche | it tends to be twice a decade |
| 21:34.32 | Dagmar | If your commits take ten minutes it's time to replace the wooden CPU |
| 21:34.33 | Esamynn|work | jleclanche: iirc, there is an import tool to goto cvs -> svn, and it's pretty easy |
| 21:35.03 | Esamynn|work | and SVN is demonstrably better than cvs |
| 21:35.11 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: if you are still dealing with cvs on the projects you maintain, there is the cost of researching this tool, learning it, using it, verifying it, then learning svn |
| 21:35.20 | jleclanche | its a one time cost, but its still huge |
| 21:36.08 | Esamynn|work | it also demonstrates an unwillingness to keep up-to-date which I find incomprehensible |
| 21:36.26 | jleclanche | projects kept in cvs are simply not cared for today |
| 21:36.28 | Esamynn|work | a degree of* |
| 21:36.54 | Esamynn|work | fair enough |
| 21:37.00 | nevcairiel | yeah you probably dont have a high-activity project still in cvs, its more like those projects that get a small fix every other month |
| 21:37.05 | jleclanche | its infuriating, i agree |
| 21:37.19 | amro | if it's not on github I don't even care anymore |
| 21:37.23 | jleclanche | but from the maintainer's POV, the cost is likely higher |
| 21:37.25 | amro | most other sites are a pain in the ass to navigate |
| 21:37.29 | Amarande | well, nowadays it's basically, if you're not on github you're just not cool, when it comes to open source heh |
| 21:37.30 | Esamynn|work | ~lart amro |
| 21:37.30 | purl | smacks amro up side the head with a clue-by-4 |
| 21:37.45 | Amarande | used to be sourceforge, before they shot themselves in the foot with the advertising on download pages |
| 21:37.49 | jleclanche | oh no |
| 21:37.51 | jleclanche | no no no |
| 21:37.58 | amro | sf shot themselves in the face by being sf |
| 21:37.59 | jleclanche | sourceforge shot itself in the brain before it shot itself in the foot |
| 21:38.19 | Amarande | well, the advertising on download pages seems to be a thing that causes established sf projects to actively leave the site, anyway |
| 21:38.31 | jleclanche | yes, thank fuck for that |
| 21:38.34 | jleclanche | sourceforge is insane |
| 21:38.44 | Amarande | because they *don't want to be thought of as malware projects* :| |
| 21:38.53 | jleclanche | the sheer slowness of the site should be reason enough for people to leave |
| 21:39.09 | nevcairiel | i got a mail from sourceforge a while back that they created a project for my project (which is hosted on github), and if i wanted to claim it i just had to click here |
| 21:39.22 | Amarande | apparently, the big problem was that recently (and content based ad targeting probably just makes this happen even MORE often, too) |
| 21:39.23 | amro | classy |
| 21:39.45 | nevcairiel | they even uploaded the release files |
| 21:39.48 | Amarande | sf started having a high frequency of ads on download pages that like to masquerade as incorrect "download now!" buttons |
| 21:40.00 | jleclanche | Amarande: i welcome the adware bullshit sourceforge is pulling |
| 21:40.11 | jleclanche | all its doing is killing off its remaining projects |
| 21:40.15 | Amarande | jleclanche: actually, we should probably be sad of that kind of thing :| |
| 21:40.26 | jleclanche | why? |
| 21:40.32 | amro | the best thing about github is you go to a repo and you're immediately presented with all the shit you care about: what it is, when it was updated, clone url, readme |
| 21:40.32 | Amarande | jleclanche: because it's not just sf |
| 21:40.33 | amro | done |
| 21:40.36 | Dagmar | Amarande: A few killings will help with that |
| 21:40.57 | Amarande | it's rather yet another symptom of targeted ad systems in general, an ever increasing number of ad-supported sites are getting saddled with the "fake adware download button" ads on their download pages |
| 21:41.04 | Dagmar | I should actully check to see if that shit is going on with the Dropline stuff |
| 21:41.11 | Amarande | because the ad targeting system goes "ooh, they're downloading, they're INTERESTED IN DOWNLOAD RELATED ADS!" |
| 21:41.19 | Dagmar | Those types of "ads" should _never_ be tolrated. |
| 21:41.28 | jleclanche | Amarande: it is insane that a lot of git UIs have still not figured out that by the time you're on the web interface for the git tree, YOU WANT THE TREE AND THE COMMIT LOG |
| 21:41.31 | Amarande | so it's getting to the point where practically every such download page is getting dogpiled with such poison |
| 21:41.36 | jleclanche | er |
| 21:41.40 | jleclanche | amro: ^ |
| 21:42.13 | Dagmar | Ads which deliberately interfere with the understanding of non-ad content of the page should never be tolerated. |
| 21:42.32 | Amarande | I'm glad wowi still uses download buttons that actually directly DOWNLOAD THE FILE :) |
| 21:42.51 | Esamynn|work | jleclanche: the state of git GUIs in general is just sad |
| 21:42.57 | Amarande | so many greedy download sites instead have the download button go to a separate additional page that makes the download, just so you get another ad |
| 21:42.58 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: i disagree |
| 21:43.07 | Amarande | and you know what's the ironic thing |
| 21:43.20 | Amarande | it's the PROTECTION systems against malware downloads that probably INCREASE the number of such downloads *facepalm* |
| 21:43.28 | Esamynn|work | perhaps sad is the wrong word |
| 21:43.31 | Esamynn|work | immature |
| 21:43.35 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: nope |
| 21:43.39 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: the state of git GUIs is as such: github won the hearts of almost everyone, because their UI is fucking great |
| 21:43.49 | jleclanche | everyone else is nearly irrelevant, because their UI is fucking retarded |
| 21:43.58 | Esamynn|work | oh, you're talking GUIs for the hosted repo |
| 21:44.00 | jleclanche | that is such a great situation to be in |
| 21:44.06 | nevcairiel | i hate github for actually browsing code, too much ajax shit that always goes bananas with the back button |
| 21:44.21 | Amarande | now Curse unfortunately i have to give points off compared to WoWI |
| 21:44.21 | Dagmar | nevcairiel; Tasers |
| 21:44.35 | Esamynn|work | I'm talking about the GUIs for actually WORKING with git to commit, push, etc. |
| 21:44.40 | amro | can't say I've had that problem nevcairiel, at least not recently |
| 21:44.40 | Amarande | thankfully, Curse seems to have avoided the toxic malware download ads, but on the other hand they still do the "separate page for the download" thing, which WoWI doesn't |
| 21:45.03 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: git's cli is pretty nice, although it has its issues |
| 21:45.17 | jleclanche | if you are talking about desktop GUIs, theres no good one because, well, nobody really uses them anyway |
| 21:45.21 | nevcairiel | Esamynn|work: the thing is that most of the long-time users just use the CLI, so they dont develop GUIs :) |
| 21:45.26 | jleclanche | and everyone has a different idea of how they should behave |
| 21:45.33 | Amarande | but again, the ironic thing is that efforts by browsers, especially IE, to *protect* people from malware probably make those ads even more effective :( |
| 21:46.18 | Esamynn|work | which is precisely why the GUI tools are immature |
| 21:46.31 | Esamynn|work | and yes, the cli is very powerful and generally quite good |
| 21:46.33 | Dagmar | Amarande: You feeling okay? |
| 21:46.55 | Esamynn|work | but CLIs have certain inherent limitations |
| 21:46.57 | Esamynn|work | just like GUIs do |
| 21:46.58 | Dagmar | It seems like you were saying that IE actually tries to protect people. |
| 21:47.04 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: i consider web interfaces to be good GUIs these days |
| 21:47.16 | Amarande | Dagmar: actually, that bit is true, because what happens so often on pages like SF's is that the browser "helpfully" blocks the automatic download as part of its "drive by download" protection |
| 21:47.18 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: at least for some things |
| 21:47.19 | Esamynn|work | they can be |
| 21:47.25 | nevcairiel | All i really *want* a GUI for is browsing in a Git repository, and reviewing my own changes |
| 21:47.34 | Amarande | at which point the user is forced to find and click the manual download link, and that's where the "crap, which download link is the real one??" game comes in |
| 21:47.49 | nevcairiel | i actually setup a web viewer on my own server just for that (for projects which are not public and cant go to github) |
| 21:47.51 | Amarande | whereas if IE left well enough alone, they'd get the right download from the get go |
| 21:47.55 | Dagmar | Amarande: THe fundamental problem there is that the page just stepped outside the "mouse click initiates atomic transaction" model |
| 21:48.05 | jleclanche | Esamynn|work: for git, they're very acceptable because whenever you deal with git, theres a high chance you're dealing with other online repositories |
| 21:48.10 | Dagmar | You click mouse, you get new page. Not multiple pages at once. |
| 21:48.20 | Dagmar | s/page/document/ == done |
| 21:48.33 | jleclanche | and yeah as nevcairiel said you can just set up a local server for private repos |
| 21:48.43 | jleclanche | but github has set really high standards for git UIs |
| 21:48.58 | Esamynn|work | jleclanche: yes, but they're useless for when I'm messing around with work which is still local |
| 21:49.03 | jleclanche | this is a really, really good situation to be in. a lot of software areas do not have that luxury |
| 21:49.04 | Esamynn|work | which is 1/2 the point of git :P |
| 21:49.17 | jleclanche | take IM clients for example |
| 21:49.24 | nevcairiel | for quickly reading code, i still really prefer plain and simple gitweb over github, but of course it doesnt come with all the collaboration features |
| 21:49.33 | jleclanche | they're one of the worst pieces of software UX still present on the desktop |
| 21:49.40 | jleclanche | and theres nobody working on it |
| 21:49.50 | jleclanche | google, somewhat, but they're making it WORSE |
| 21:50.38 | Esamynn|work | I don't really want to run a local webserver though, just for a GUI for my local repos |
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| 21:50.47 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: gitweb is pretty great. unfortunately on a technical level its a POS |
| 21:50.56 | nevcairiel | its perl, what do you expect :P |
| 21:51.01 | jleclanche | its cgi .. |
| 21:51.05 | Esamynn|work | for a variety of reasons |
| 21:51.06 | jleclanche | urgh |
| 21:51.09 | nevcairiel | perl cgi! |
| 21:51.13 | Esamynn|work | ewww |
| 21:51.14 | jleclanche | yeah |
| 21:51.26 | jleclanche | lets talk more about bullshit UX. issue trackers |
| 21:51.27 | jleclanche | yeah. |
| 21:51.34 | Esamynn|work | rofl |
| 21:51.58 | nevcairiel | never seen a issue tracker where i thought this has everything |
| 21:52.03 | jleclanche | once again an area where perl cgi has won the hearts and minds cause its so awesome (YAY BUGZILLA) |
| 21:52.04 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: i have |
| 21:52.20 | jleclanche | i forgot the name now.. |
| 21:52.28 | Dagmar | wat wat wat but php is more awesomer becuase it has 56,742 functions |
| 21:53.05 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: ah yes, codebasehq's tracker |
| 21:53.19 | jleclanche | http://www.codebasehq.com/ unfortunately its closed source |
| 21:53.59 | kd3|hate`net | whee. 3" and counting. we've still got another 4-5 hours of snow coming, and then the roads will freeze, not that traffic's not already a disaster |
| 21:54.14 | Dagmar | Oh wait you're down in Atlanta, aren't you? |
| 21:54.18 | kd3 | yup |
| 21:54.21 | nevcairiel | we used mantis at work a long time, and its actually decent because its very simple, but it could do with some advanced features for agile development, and its UI is stuck in the html4 era |
| 21:54.41 | nevcairiel | then we switched to Jira, which is modern and has all the fancy features, but in so many aspects its just too fucking complicated |
| 21:54.51 | Esamynn|work | ^ |
| 21:55.11 | Dagmar | kd3: We were laughing at Google maps at about 2pm |
| 21:55.14 | jleclanche | nevcairiel: codebasehq has a robust interface around a robust feature set. it is on par with jira but without being so complex |
| 21:55.14 | karl_w_w | http://i.4cdn.org/b/src/1390940617915.gif Cairenn |
| 21:55.24 | Dagmar | "Hey look, they handle snow like Nashvillians now!" |
| 21:55.52 | kd3 | all the tv personalities were complaining about a 2.5 hour commute for what normally takes 30 minutes |
| 21:55.57 | Dagmar | Right where the temperature transitions to 31F and lower, RED LINES EVERYWHERE |
| 21:56.12 | kd3 | shit went south quick around 1:00 when they let the schools/work out early all at the same time |
| 21:56.12 | Dagmar | ...and it's basically all of midtown Atlanta |
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| 21:56.36 | Dagmar | One wee little section of the loop to the east that's not red |
| 21:57.49 | Amarande | heh, what does red line on a road mean, accident? |
| 21:57.58 | kd3 | slow traffic |
| 21:58.00 | Dagmar | Traffic is only marginally faster than walking |
| 21:58.16 | jleclanche | you guys need some bikes |
| 21:58.26 | Dagmar | A high spirited passenger could hop out and beat you home on foot |
| 21:58.32 | kd3 | if I didn't live 25 miles from work, sure |
| 21:59.06 | jleclanche | if i lived 25 miles from work, my work would be halfway to london |
| 21:59.07 | kd3 | ...ah, finally. "Hey guys, we're closed tomorrow. Don't come in" |
| 21:59.17 | Dagmar | damn you |
| 21:59.50 | Dagmar | Her'e it's just a wind chill of -4F because it hates us |
| 22:00.35 | jleclanche | WOO |
| 22:00.39 | jleclanche | i just received my first bitcoin spam |
| 22:00.40 | jleclanche | \o/ |
| 22:00.54 | Sintacks | bitcoin spam? |
| 22:01.03 | jleclanche | yeah a spammer sending me his bitcoin wallet |
| 22:02.15 | Sintacks | why would he do that? |
| 22:02.28 | jleclanche | so that i can put money in it? idk |
| 22:02.29 | nevcairiel | why do spammers do anything? |
| 22:03.15 | Dagmar | Because we don't KILL enough of them. |
| 22:03.27 | Sintacks | what are they doing to try to get you to give them bitcoins? |
| 22:04.04 | Dagmar | It's probably a matter of them trying to get it greylisted |
| 22:04.23 | Dagmar | ...so that when it's attached to a real spam or confidence scheme later, it won't automatically be tagged as spam. |
| 22:04.39 | jleclanche | yeah well too late for that |
| 22:04.42 | jleclanche | it was in spam |
| 22:07.27 | kd3 | oh man the schools really fucked up. they're talking now that some kids will have to spend the night tonight |
| 22:07.38 | kd3 | I've never seen the traffic this bad: http://i.imgur.com/IfAfgRm.jpg |
| 22:08.14 | nevcairiel | a couple inches of snow and everything goes to hell |
| 22:08.15 | nevcairiel | ? |
| 22:08.25 | kd3 | welcome to the deep south |
| 22:08.35 | Sintacks | that's what happens when you don't know how to deal with a type of weather |
| 22:09.01 | kd3 | people complaining of taking hours to drive a mile or two in some places |
| 22:09.14 | nevcairiel | maybe they should walk that mile |
| 22:09.54 | Dagmar | nevcariel++ |
| 22:10.04 | Dagmar | After all, you can only be shot to death once. |
| 22:10.17 | kd3 | they're doing that too - people abandoning their cars and walking, largely because they've run out of gas |
| 22:10.25 | kd3 | is /glad/ he filled up last night |
| 22:10.54 | Dagmar | All that's left to do is start a rumor about flesh-eating zombies. |
| 22:11.00 | kd3 | lmao |
| 22:11.14 | nevcairiel | 3" of snow and people already r unning out of gas on the roads? |
| 22:11.22 | nevcairiel | you really have a bunch of crazies |
| 22:11.33 | kd3 | <kd3> welcome to the deep south |
| 22:12.14 | Seerah | nevcairiel: here in America, in the South, no one knows how to handle snow |
| 22:12.27 | Seerah | and the governments aren't equipped to do much about it |
| 22:12.36 | kd3 | you'd think we would've learned after the 2011 disaster, but nooooo~ |
| 22:12.40 | nevcairiel | but at that amount you dont need to "handle" it much... |
| 22:12.44 | Seerah | we're transplants from Michigan, and laugh every time.... |
| 22:12.48 | Ermad | its better then the alternative. last week got 10" of snow and my work didn't shut down, even though the subway I take was suspended. took forever to get home |
| 22:13.03 | Seerah | nevcairiel: you are correct, but no one knows how to drive in it and everyone freaks out |
| 22:16.28 | kd3 | and there's the state of emergency declaration. hahaha |
| 22:16.36 | nevcairiel | ... |
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| 22:19.29 | Seerah | http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Snow+In+The+North+vs+South_9c53e1_4989823.jpg |
| 22:21.24 | Seerah | I was looking for a differnet picture, but could only find half of it: http://randomoverload.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fd25h0CFF131E.jpg (the other showed north vs south or something, with the north actually knowing how to use a parking lot covered with snow) |
| 22:21.46 | Ackis | Dagmar: What do you mean by "trolling in volume"? |
| 22:25.55 | Ackis | oh I think he meant is my entire post a troll post amiright Torhal? |
| 22:26.34 | nevcairiel | Seerah: thats hilarious :D |
| 22:26.56 | nevcairiel | the fucking road still shows, thats not even "covered with snow" :D |
| 22:27.01 | Amarande | Ermad: ah the fun of snow emergency declarations |
| 22:27.18 | Amarande | I'm still waiting for the year when the Patriots stadium gets the Super Bowl and there's a massive snowstorm on Super Bowl Sunday |
| 22:27.38 | Amarande | the poor MA governor will probably have to curl up under their blanket and have the Lt Gov make the decision there, if he wants any chance of winning the next election heh |
| 22:28.49 | Ermad | could have happened to this year's, been getting tons of snow in NYC this month |
| 22:29.13 | Arrowmaster | Ackis: your post was bad and you should feel bad |
| 22:29.32 | Amarande | Ermad: but MA has a particularly Draconian law about state shutdowns, so it would be especially catastrophic there |
| 22:29.48 | Amarande | apparently, up there, if you're caught on the road without a proper exemption, you can go to jail for up to a year |
| 22:30.02 | Amarande | recklessly endangering rescue personnel being the rationale, natch |
| 22:30.50 | Amarande | if it happened there, Gov would be stuck deciding between either recklessly endangering tens of thousands of drivers plus the rescue folks (and never get elected again) or utterly disrupting the Super Bowl (with the economic fallout resulting in never getting elected again) |
| 22:31.22 | Esamynn|work | Seerah: so very VERY true! |
| 22:35.29 | Amarande | though yeah, actually, the Super Bowl may be in danger this year |
| 22:35.40 | Amarande | at least here in Connecticut it looks like the whole SB weekend is going to be horribly foul weather |
| 22:36.02 | Amarande | not sure about NJ, but NYC is apparently going to be about as foul as well |
| 22:43.39 | Mr_Rabies | Seerah: it has way more to do with the states not prepping the roads for snow than anything else |
| 22:44.04 | Mr_Rabies | the roads become literally impossible to drive on safely |
| 22:44.11 | Seerah | I mentioned unpreparedness and inexperience |
| 22:44.34 | Mr_Rabies | because there's zero salt down and the roads aren't built for snow in the first place, nor are our tires etc |
| 22:44.41 | Mr_Rabies | it just turns into sheets of ice |
| 22:44.53 | Gnarfoz | roads built for snow? I doubt ours are |
| 22:44.58 | Mr_Rabies | which there's no driving safely on without proper equipment to do so |
| 22:45.28 | Gnarfoz | but it's certainly possible to drive on snowy roads with summer tyres, it's just not fun (or fast) |
| 22:45.36 | Mr_Rabies | they're not snowy |
| 22:45.37 | Mr_Rabies | they're icy |
| 22:45.43 | Gnarfoz | I thought it's snowing |
| 22:45.45 | Mr_Rabies | it melts and refreezes over and over and over |
| 22:45.52 | Seerah | I don't think Michigan's roads are "built for snow" either. There's a joke that there are two seasons in MI - winter and construction (as in roads) |
| 22:45.52 | Mr_Rabies | until it's an ice slick |
| 22:45.54 | Arrowmaster | yeah even if the southern states do have salt trunks and salt, i highly doubt they have any of the liquid deicer and trucks to spray it that they use on the highways here |
| 22:45.56 | Gnarfoz | how? I thought it's snowing right now |
| 22:46.12 | Mr_Rabies | they're ice right now |
| 22:46.15 | Mr_Rabies | ask anyone |
| 22:46.18 | Mr_Rabies | out on the roads |
| 22:46.21 | Gnarfoz | not much point |
| 22:46.21 | Mr_Rabies | they'll let you know |
| 22:46.26 | Gnarfoz | I'm 10 Mm away. |
| 22:46.43 | Mr_Rabies | we don't, Arrowmaster |
| 22:46.49 | Mr_Rabies | no salt trucks have been through this area at all yet |
| 22:47.01 | Mr_Rabies | they're literally just melting and refreezing the ice from being driven on |
| 22:47.10 | Mr_Rabies | making it smoother each time |
| 22:47.12 | Arrowmaster | salt isnt as useful on highways as the deicer spray is |
| 22:47.18 | Mr_Rabies | there's nothing to get traction on |
| 22:47.54 | Mr_Rabies | they don't send out salt trucks until the roads are already closed because they're covered in ice |
| 22:48.03 | Mr_Rabies | and we have so few that it takes hours to get them anywhere |
| 22:48.09 | Arrowmaster | and its not like other major events where youll get crews from other states coming to help, they are all busy in their own states |
| 22:48.25 | Mr_Rabies | it's not really anything to do with preparedness on the individual person's side |
| 22:48.29 | Mr_Rabies | there's no preparing for this |
| 22:48.34 | Amarande | and in some places, you aren't able to salt |
| 22:48.40 | Gnarfoz | snow tytes |
| 22:48.42 | Gnarfoz | snow chains |
| 22:48.42 | Amarande | for instance, where I live, I'm near a lake, so the use of salt is forbidden |
| 22:48.42 | Mr_Rabies | other than the states having proper stuff to keep the roads safe |
| 22:48.43 | Gnarfoz | spikes |
| 22:48.46 | Gnarfoz | :P |
| 22:48.48 | Mr_Rabies | snow chains are illegal in georgia |
| 22:48.56 | Mr_Rabies | and spikes |
| 22:48.59 | Gnarfoz | not that these states seem to usually need them |
| 22:49.01 | Mr_Rabies | and good luck finding snow tires |
| 22:49.08 | Gnarfoz | there's this thing called the internet |
| 22:49.09 | Amarande | heh Mr_Rabies ... I think people would rather have a ticket than a repair bill |
| 22:49.12 | Gnarfoz | you can buy them there :D |
| 22:49.30 | Arrowmaster | Gnarfoz: if the roads are closed how do they get delivered when you order them |
| 22:49.37 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: you order them before? :P |
| 22:49.48 | Gnarfoz | but for icy roads, they don't do shit |
| 22:49.50 | Gnarfoz | so doesn't matter |
| 22:49.56 | Mr_Rabies | roads don't really get snowy here |
| 22:49.58 | Mr_Rabies | they get icy |
| 22:50.10 | Mr_Rabies | it's warm enough for the snow to melt from cars driving on them |
| 22:50.12 | Mr_Rabies | and then it refreezes |
| 22:50.31 | Mr_Rabies | with no traction, there's no safe driving |
| 22:50.42 | Gnarfoz | well, if you outlaw the only things that help :D |
| 22:50.47 | Mr_Rabies | they wait until the roads are literally unusuable before they close them, and THEN they start rallying up the salt trucks |
| 22:50.54 | Gnarfoz | and don't have enough infrastructural support to make up the difference |
| 22:50.57 | Gnarfoz | you're fucked |
| 22:51.01 | Gnarfoz | cf. now |
| 22:51.06 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 22:51.29 | Mr_Rabies | it's not really individual drivers' faults, and i'm frankly kind of tired of people getting blamed for "not knowing how to drive in it" |
| 22:51.44 | Mr_Rabies | it's a problem at the state level that isn't easily fixed |
| 22:52.25 | Mr_Rabies | now, if a congressman found a way to get a kickback from salting the roads, etc, it'd be done in a heartbeat |
| 22:52.28 | Gnarfoz | the solutions seem obvious, they're just rarely needed apparently |
| 22:52.42 | Mr_Rabies | they see it as a waste of money right now to buy more salt trucks, etc |
| 22:53.00 | Gnarfoz | so they're "easy" to fix in as they're not complicated, just "not easy" as in "politics lololol" |
| 22:53.01 | Mr_Rabies | instead we've got kids stuck in buses stuck in ditches |
| 22:53.13 | Mr_Rabies | because they didn't close schools until 1pm |
| 22:53.19 | Mr_Rabies | which is waaaaaaaay after the roads were unsafe to drive on |
| 22:53.28 | Mr_Rabies | they became totally undrivable at around 11am |
| 22:56.30 | Mr_Rabies | stranded schoolbuses everywhere now |
| 22:56.38 | Mr_Rabies | many with no heat |
| 22:57.30 | Gnarfoz | what's the temperature there? |
| 22:58.49 | Mr_Rabies | 19F |
| 23:00.09 | Mr_Rabies | many kids without proper clothing for being outdoors in <20F weather on those buses, too |
| 23:00.27 | Gnarfoz | well, that's just plain stupidity because it's unrelated to the road conditions :D |
| 23:01.16 | Mr_Rabies | i don't really have a jacket for long term stuff in <20F outdoors |
| 23:02.05 | Gnarfoz | well, I guess we're back to "only happens every couple of years" |
| 23:02.27 | Mr_Rabies | it gets that cold maybe 2-3 times a year usually' |
| 23:03.13 | Mr_Rabies | well, more often at night |
| 23:03.20 | Mr_Rabies | but i'm certainly indoors then |
| 23:03.29 | Gnarfoz | I can't see my parents ever letting me go outside without appropriate clothing in winter, but then, we walked to school :=] |
| 23:03.40 | Gnarfoz | (and had snowball fights along the way! :P) |
| 23:04.04 | Mr_Rabies | there's a lot of poor people that can't afford buying a new jacket once a year that a kid will use once or twice that year |
| 23:04.41 | Mr_Rabies | and i don't really wear jackets unless it's COLD, and in that case i try to get indoors asap |
| 23:38.13 | kd3 | whee. so glad I don't have anywhere to be any time soon. walked out to the road (which doesn't get much traffic) and it's already a slushy mess that's going to refreeze soon |
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