| 00:02.17 | kd3 | don't load a car like this: http://i.imgur.com/oyxXaFS.gif |
| 00:05.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Gragagrogog (~blindpred@ip-89-177-116-251.net.upcbroadband.cz) |
| 00:06.55 | Shirik | wtf did he do |
| 00:07.26 | Shirik | also why is his hood already smashed before he hits the truck |
| 00:07.48 | kd3 | the thread suggests it was a manual and the driver (not the guy outside the car!) high-revved it before shifting into gear; video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L5EiqaBXW0 |
| 00:09.30 | Arrowmaster | that seems wrong |
| 00:09.59 | Arrowmaster | unless the driver was stupid enough not to remove his foot from the accelerator immediately |
| 00:11.23 | Arrowmaster | also why arent they trying to get the driver out |
| 00:14.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Primer (~daniel@www.ceregatti.org) |
| 00:17.42 | airtonix | because there was no driver. it was a booby trap |
| 00:17.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Sintacks (Syntax@cdm-75-109-239-234.asbnva.dh.suddenlink.net) |
| 00:19.30 | *** join/#wowuidev User632 (~U632@pool-71-110-116-202.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:25.25 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (~textual@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 00:25.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 00:29.13 | airtonix | has anyone been playing around with amazons implementation of chef (opsworks) ? |
| 00:32.44 | bleeter | nah, I avoid erlang and ruby as a rule. I've been screwing around with Ansible recently though. |
| 00:38.53 | kd3 | hm, drupal compromised |
| 00:39.10 | bleeter | cite? |
| 00:39.17 | bleeter | also |
| 00:39.19 | bleeter | again? |
| 00:39.26 | bleeter | oh, drupal.org |
| 00:39.31 | kd3 | yah |
| 00:43.37 | Dagmar | Biggest suprise... wasn't a drupal exploit |
| 00:51.55 | durcyn | if i ever meet the animal responsible for hulu ads, remind me to bring an icepick |
| 00:53.50 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o eir] by ChanServ |
| 00:53.51 | *** mode/#wowuidev [-bo *!*@77.36.34.95.customer.cdi.no$##fix_your_connection eir] by eir |
| 01:00.45 | *** join/#wowuidev aggixx (465c4dee@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.92.77.238) |
| 01:01.37 | aggixx | Could someone point me in the direction of a guide on how to troubleshoot library conflicts? Or is there a general procedure. I've done some googling but haven't really found anything helpful on the issue. |
| 01:02.06 | aggixx | Some users of my addon are experiencing various other addons of theirs breaking due with lib related LUA errors. |
| 01:04.59 | Primer | There should be no conflicts. IIRC, the game loads the highest version of the library regardless of where it's loaded from. |
| 01:05.33 | Primer | so if addon Foo has LibBar-1.0 and addon Baz has LibBar-2.0, you get LibBar-2.0 |
| 01:05.45 | Primer | s/has/embeds/ |
| 01:05.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (~quassel@54.210.233.220.static.exetel.com.au) |
| 01:05.53 | Primer | s/has/embeds/g |
| 01:05.59 | durcyn | 1.0 and 2.0 shouldn't share the same major |
| 01:05.59 | Primer | oh, it's smart! |
| 01:06.32 | Primer | yeah, I should have phrased that better |
| 01:06.57 | aggixx | Hmm, that's interesting. |
| 01:06.58 | Primer | if addon Foo embeds LibBar-1.0.123 and addon Baz embeds LibBar-1.0.345, you get LibBar-1.0.345 |
| 01:07.02 | Primer | durcyn: better? |
| 01:07.12 | durcyn | Primer: you may continue. |
| 01:07.19 | Primer | thanks |
| 01:08.04 | Primer | aggixx: then you get to find out if your users are using versions with no embedded libraries, and therefore maintaining their own libraries |
| 01:08.10 | Primer | which is always fun |
| 01:08.56 | TC-work | My phone keeps hanging up on people at work. |
| 01:08.59 | TC-work | I LOVE IT. |
| 01:09.25 | aggixx | Primer: Do you mean versions of my addon? All the users are using the version I want them to be using. |
| 01:10.08 | aggixx | I can provide the LUA errors if anyone would be interested in looking at them. |
| 01:10.13 | Primer | aggixx: well, I use curse to package my addon. By default it creates lib and no-lib versions |
| 01:10.33 | kd3 | paste an example Lua error on pastebin |
| 01:10.37 | Primer | lib contains the embedded libs, and no-lib...does not |
| 01:10.55 | aggixx | Ah, I'm not using curse, just distributing via github, the only download link I've provided includes libs. |
| 01:11.01 | aggixx | http://pastebin.com/wTWHPm6Z http://pastebin.com/uM2w1MMx |
| 01:12.48 | Primer | and do you keep those libs up to date? |
| 01:13.10 | aggixx | I've updated all of the ace3 libraries and the issue was still present. |
| 01:13.33 | Primer | I love how traces go from one addon to another to another |
| 01:18.35 | Primer | FALoot is your addon? It's the only name I don't recognize |
| 01:19.00 | Primer | Keep in mind that I'm by no means any authority here. I'm just bored at work, and willing to help |
| 01:19.52 | airtonix | bleeter: yeah ruby sucks hard. |
| 01:20.16 | Primer | so much hate |
| 01:21.49 | TC-work | Such a bad employee Primer :p |
| 01:22.24 | aggixx | Primer: Yes, that's correct. |
| 01:22.37 | Primer | TC-work: I'm "compiling" |
| 01:22.46 | TC-work | Primer: heh |
| 01:23.02 | Primer | http://xkcd.com/303/ |
| 01:23.09 | Primer | in case someone missed it |
| 01:23.34 | Primer | the funny part is, I really am :) |
| 01:23.44 | Primer | and I can't test this shit until it's done |
| 01:24.04 | Adys | Could someone give me some advice on corsair ram? I need min. 16 gb in 8gb modules, price isn't much of an issue. |
| 01:24.40 | Primer | I bought 2 sticks at Frys not long ago when I replaced my motherboard. IIRC they came out to about $120 |
| 01:24.44 | Primer | or perhaps less |
| 01:24.53 | Ressy | 8gb modules? Does your board even support that? |
| 01:24.55 | Primer | 2x8 |
| 01:25.01 | Semlar | i got 16gb of gskill for $60 but the price has like doubled since then |
| 01:25.04 | Adys | Ressy: yes, why wouldn't it? |
| 01:25.30 | Ressy | okies.. I haven't looked at newer boards lately, so its surprising they have 8gb sticks now. |
| 01:25.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (~Instantbi@ip68-109-131-126.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 01:25.41 | Adys | pretty sure they have 16gb sticks |
| 01:25.47 | Semlar | what do you mean lately |
| 01:26.04 | Semlar | how old would a motherboard have to be to not support 8gb ram modules |
| 01:26.36 | Adys | if it doesnt support 8gb, probably wouldnt support 4gb either |
| 01:26.39 | Adys | so.. seriously old |
| 01:26.43 | Primer | aggixx: link to your addon's github? I can't find it using the google...it keeps thinking I've misspelled fallout |
| 01:26.53 | Ressy | 8gb is ddr3 only. |
| 01:26.56 | aggixx | https://github.com/aggixx/FALoot |
| 01:27.17 | Semlar | it's the canadian pronunciation of fallout |
| 01:27.20 | Primer | I suppose I should have searched github...heh |
| 01:27.56 | aggixx | Woulda been a tough one to guess hehe |
| 01:28.07 | Ressy | Adys: Essentially, 775 socket & earlier wouldn't support |
| 01:28.14 | Adys | so, seriously old |
| 01:28.20 | Ressy | ... |
| 01:28.23 | Ressy | 2010? |
| 01:28.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (~Daniel@c-67-160-127-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 01:28.43 | Semlar | what is that the dark ages? |
| 01:30.03 | Adys | older than that |
| 01:30.08 | Adys | 2008ish |
| 01:30.39 | Ressy | i7s were introduced in 2008? |
| 01:30.48 | Adys | i7s are 1156. |
| 01:31.42 | Adys | 775 is older than 2006 according to wikipedia |
| 01:31.46 | TC-work | define 'advice on corsair ram' It's not like they have a huge number of options at 8GB sticks |
| 01:32.06 | Ressy | it was only the i5/i7 introduction of ddr3 that supported 8gb sticks |
| 01:32.12 | Ressy | I do believe |
| 01:32.13 | Semlar | uh |
| 01:32.18 | Semlar | i don't think that's true |
| 01:33.21 | Adys | TC-work: they have shitload of different brand names |
| 01:33.24 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3|hate`net (~Kaydeethr@unaffiliated/kd3) |
| 01:33.39 | TC-work | Adys: but you specified one. |
| 01:33.43 | Adys | what the fuck is vengeance and is it better or worse than dominator magimechanomatrix |
| 01:34.31 | TC-work | seriously Adys? Top to bottom http://www.corsair.com/us/memory-by-product-family.html |
| 01:34.43 | Adys | that works |
| 01:35.14 | Primer | aggixx: I wish I had some insight, but I have none...sorry |
| 01:35.30 | aggixx | No worries, I appreciate the help regardless. |
| 01:35.32 | TC-work | %*(&%#)$(* Who the hell needs LED RAM. If you are looking at your case instead of your screen get the hell of the computer. |
| 01:35.42 | TC-work | off* |
| 01:35.51 | Semlar | out of* |
| 01:36.18 | Adys | TC-work: i know what the fuck |
| 01:37.13 | Semlar | i don't really like LEDs on anything on the computer |
| 01:37.28 | Semlar | there seem to be a lot of LED fans |
| 01:38.26 | Adys | TC-work: i cant find 8gb modules in anything else than dominator platinum |
| 01:38.46 | TC-work | I know, apparently all computer manufacturers think computers should look like disco balls. |
| 01:38.56 | bleeter | on the subject of LEDs... I'm not a huge fan of Mark Pesce, even less so of VRML... but. Cute http://moorescloud.com/ - individually programmable LED christmas lights |
| 01:39.02 | Arrowmaster | why do you need corsair ram? |
| 01:39.30 | Adys | Arrowmaster: I like corsair; got any other/better options? |
| 01:39.47 | Arrowmaster | whatevers cheapest on newegg |
| 01:39.51 | Arrowmaster | typicall gskill |
| 01:40.28 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (~Kaydeethr@unaffiliated/kd3) |
| 01:40.30 | TC-work | Adys: http://www.corsair.com/us/memory-by-product-family/dominator/dominator-with-dhx-pro-connector-1-5v-32gb-dual-channel-ddr3-memory-kit-cmp32gx3m4x1600c10.html that is |
| 01:40.36 | TC-work | and eww at that link |
| 01:41.02 | TC-work | bleeter: that's because they can't get jack traction on their other bulb. |
| 01:42.04 | Primer | I have this memory: CMZ16GX3M2A1600C10 |
| 01:42.14 | bleeter | TC-work: didn't even realise they had another product |
| 01:42.14 | Primer | So far my box has been rock stable |
| 01:42.36 | Primer | And I vnc'd into my machine at home, ran cpu-z, saved a report to text JUST TO GET YOU THAT |
| 01:42.40 | Primer | So I hope you appreciate it |
| 01:42.48 | Semlar | i have gskill in my laptop and my desktop |
| 01:43.28 | Primer | http://www.corsair.com/en/memory-by-product-family/vengeance/vengeance-16gb-dual-channel-ddr3-memory-kit-cmz16gx3m2a1600c10.html <-- my ram on their site |
| 01:44.00 | Primer | and again, I don't recall what I paid for it. I recall it was over $100 |
| 01:44.20 | bleeter | TC-work: still, they're probably both more successful that Pesce's attempt at encrypting tweets. http://plexusproject.org/ |
| 01:44.32 | Primer | http://frys-electronics-ads.com/ads/2013/05/24/61956/Corsair-16GB-DDR3-1333MHz-Dual-Memory |
| 01:44.34 | TC-work | bleeter: they had a kickstarter that failed. Then they tried to go go it alone, and got a whole 20%. |
| 01:44.54 | Primer | "mac" memory |
| 01:45.23 | Primer | really...as if that wouldn't work in any other machine |
| 01:46.37 | TC-work | other way around |
| 01:46.42 | Semlar | well, it does tell you it works in a mac which isn't always guaranteed |
| 01:46.47 | TC-work | most memory wont work in a mac |
| 01:46.48 | Adys | Primer: do you know if i can find what you linked in a 16gb pack for the UK? |
| 01:47.18 | Semlar | do they have stores in the UK? where is that |
| 01:47.22 | Primer | Adys: got me...I don't do UK |
| 01:47.48 | Semlar | i bet you could find it on ebay |
| 01:48.39 | Adys | ram is one thing i definitely dont buy off ebay |
| 01:50.33 | Shirik | gives Adys a http://tinyurl.com/qh7d3uw |
| 01:52.15 | Mr_Rabies | keylogger imo |
| 01:53.30 | Adys | I really dont want to buy this bullshit LED ram |
| 01:53.47 | TC-work | then don't, I linked you an 8GB one |
| 01:53.56 | TC-work | in vengance |
| 01:54.00 | Adys | you linked me a 32gb one |
| 01:54.03 | Adys | oh |
| 01:54.10 | Adys | er where? |
| 01:54.15 | TC-work | http://www.corsair.com/en/memory-by-product-family/vengeance/vengeance-16gb-dual-channel-ddr3-memory-kit-cmz16gx3m2a1600c10.html |
| 01:54.26 | TC-work | oh, dfamit |
| 01:54.31 | Adys | ah |
| 01:54.33 | TC-work | that's what bleeter linked |
| 01:54.41 | TC-work | or rahter Primer |
| 01:54.43 | TC-work | rather* |
| 01:55.57 | Adys | yeah thats good |
| 01:58.28 | bleeter | wut |
| 01:59.24 | Adys | alright ordered one set of those |
| 01:59.25 | Adys | thanks |
| 01:59.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Gragagrogog (~blindpred@ip-89-177-116-251.net.upcbroadband.cz) |
| 02:00.00 | Primer | I recently had to debug something in IE7, so installed the so-called "XP mode" (which is just XP...in a VM). Since our site uses a ton of javascript, I allocated 2G to the VM without blinking, since I have 16g of ram. It's nice having 16g of ram |
| 02:00.10 | Primer | It sucks having to debug IE7 though :( |
| 02:00.42 | Primer | and IE8 == IE7 effectively...and IE8 still has like 11% of the damn browser market |
| 02:04.48 | Stanzilla | I ignore everything below 8 |
| 02:05.15 | Adys | I ignore everything below 10, and i still ran into three issues |
| 02:05.43 | Primer | not optional when you have US government clients stuck with XP |
| 02:05.53 | Adys | Declare war on them |
| 02:06.00 | Stanzilla | fuck the police! |
| 02:07.11 | kd3 | I was somewhat annoyed before I left Target... we got these nice shiny new machines for the workstations, but they reimaged them back to xp |
| 02:09.29 | airtonix | Primer: chrome frame? |
| 02:09.48 | Primer | I have no idea what that is |
| 02:09.59 | airtonix | Primer: investigate it. you can love me later. |
| 02:10.10 | Adys | it's an ie plugin that forces rendering IE pages with Chrome's renderer |
| 02:10.13 | Primer | but if you're suggesting that we ask that these people install something on their machines...that's impossible |
| 02:10.18 | Primer | as they work for the government |
| 02:10.18 | airtonix | no it's not |
| 02:10.31 | Adys | https://www.google.com/chromeframe?prefersystemlevel=true |
| 02:10.33 | Neffi | Primer: I wish I had a nice six-core as well. Not have to worry about a VM eating 2-3 cores. It really is nice when you work with VMs. |
| 02:10.35 | Primer | yeah, so...installing something on their machines |
| 02:10.40 | Primer | not going to happen |
| 02:10.46 | airtonix | why not? |
| 02:10.49 | Primer | please |
| 02:10.56 | TC-work | At least you could use it for testing |
| 02:10.59 | Primer | you've obviously never dealt with the US government |
| 02:11.02 | TC-work | instead of needed to install a VM |
| 02:11.06 | TC-work | needing* |
| 02:11.09 | Primer | no |
| 02:11.12 | Adys | TC-work: that wasnt his issue |
| 02:11.18 | airtonix | Primer: they don't have mice with buttons? is this what you're saying? |
| 02:11.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (~RyanNL@adsl-74-226-97-211.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:11.25 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 02:11.36 | Adys | airtonix: It makes a lot of sense there would be regulations on what software can be installed |
| 02:11.37 | Primer | TC-work: I can test my shit just fine in real chrome |
| 02:11.40 | Adys | especially browser plugins |
| 02:11.42 | TC-work | Adys: I realize, I was just suggesting it. |
| 02:12.23 | Primer | I wrote something up in chrome only to have it fail in IE7. I spent the next TWO DAYS getting it working in IE7 |
| 02:12.48 | airtonix | adys is there any documented evidence about why chrome frame can't be installed ? |
| 02:12.55 | Adys | airtonix: It makes a lot of sense there would be regulations on what software can be installed |
| 02:12.59 | Adys | especially browser plugins |
| 02:13.03 | airtonix | do government it people just hate anything that isn't microsoft? |
| 02:13.08 | Primer | airtonix: When you can't install anything, you...can't install anything |
| 02:13.20 | Primer | airtonix: is that not reason enough? |
| 02:13.37 | airtonix | no |
| 02:13.51 | Primer | it's an unfortunate reality |
| 02:14.03 | bleeter | not just gov't that do locked down SOEs |
| 02:14.08 | airtonix | i thought i was a democracy? |
| 02:14.09 | TC-work | He is correct however. Most Finance departments are in the same circle of hell. |
| 02:14.11 | kd3 | sure it is - generally user accounts are so locked down they can't even open the date/time panel to see the calendar |
| 02:14.11 | airtonix | it* |
| 02:14.15 | Primer | which can't be circumvented |
| 02:14.46 | Adys | airtonix: You can't blindly tell a body to blindly trust a company's code in running on every website that will be visited on the machine. it's insane and really stupid |
| 02:14.52 | airtonix | Primer: you could vote with your absence of support |
| 02:14.54 | Primer | democracy has nothing to do with software restrictions in the office environment |
| 02:15.03 | Neffi | What would probably be the cheapest CPU which can compile large stuff at reasonable speeds? Should I go for an i3, or are the newer AMD chips alright? |
| 02:15.11 | Primer | airtonix: one could call that "absence of clients" too |
| 02:15.21 | Adys | Neffi: i5s arent too expensive nowadays |
| 02:15.28 | airtonix | Primer: i'm sure someone of your skill would have no problems finding more sane clients |
| 02:15.29 | bleeter | personally, I'd love to meet a sysadmin who'd be happy to admin 10,000 client machines where people can install any old crap they wish |
| 02:15.33 | Primer | I love my quad core i7 :) |
| 02:15.38 | Neffi | Looking to put together a bullshit rig for playing with FreeBSD, so I can learn its architecture and begin developing for it |
| 02:16.18 | Adys | Neffi: I have a rope and a chair, maybe you want that too, for fun? |
| 02:16.29 | Primer | airtonix: we have a very vertical software offering. The client list is limited, and unfortunately the majority of them as in the US government. |
| 02:16.52 | Neffi | Adys: Got something against fBSD? |
| 02:17.02 | Adys | Neffi: No I just like being a dick |
| 02:17.06 | Neffi | lol |
| 02:17.16 | kd3 | heh, someone hit the wrong button. http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/261725-53-hotfixes-workspace-do-not-finalize/ |
| 02:17.35 | Adys | lol |
| 02:18.02 | Cairenn | Heh |
| 02:18.27 | Adys | Ra'sha's Sacrificial Dagger can no longer be used while in Bizmo's Brawlpub or Brawl'gar Arena. |
| 02:18.29 | Adys | OH COME ON |
| 02:20.05 | Mr_Rabies | i don't get it |
| 02:20.07 | Mr_Rabies | why not? :o |
| 02:20.21 | kd3 | trying to avoid the durability penalty for failing |
| 02:20.33 | Semlar | there is no durability hit |
| 02:20.37 | Mr_Rabies | is that really such a big deal |
| 02:20.48 | Mr_Rabies | they should make the dagger give durability damage then :O |
| 02:21.04 | Semlar | the only durability loss you take in the brawlers arena is from being in combat |
| 02:22.03 | Semlar | people were probably bugging it somehow |
| 02:22.12 | *** join/#wowuidev TGiFallen (~TGiFallen@69.17.183.139) |
| 02:25.25 | TGiFallen | would anyone mind giving me a hand, I'm trying to make macros to open UI frames (PVP frame for example). My macro currently works IF i have pressed the hotkey or micro button to open the frame first. If I don't the error i get is "[string "if not PVPUIFrame:IsShown() then ShowUIPane..."]:1: attempt to index global 'PVPUIFrame' (a nil value)" I know this means that basically the PVPUI frame hasn't been initialised, and actually doesn't exist yet, whi |
| 02:25.26 | TGiFallen | ch makes sense. But I can't figure out how to initialise/create it |
| 02:25.43 | TGiFallen | and i am looking through the FrameXML lua to see if that sheds some light |
| 02:25.46 | TGiFallen | no luck so far |
| 02:25.48 | Semlar | addon probably hasn't been loaded yet |
| 02:26.12 | Semlar | you can use LoadAddOn |
| 02:26.45 | kd3 | specifically, LoadAddon("Blizzard_PVPUI") |
| 02:26.58 | Semlar | and IsAddOnLoaded |
| 02:27.06 | Semlar | make sure the O is capitalized |
| 02:27.31 | TGiFallen | oooohhh, never thought of that. Thanks! i will get back to you if it works |
| 02:27.33 | kd3 | specifically, LoadAddOn("Blizzard_PVPUI")* |
| 02:29.30 | Adys | Semlar: there is a durability hit. |
| 02:29.32 | Adys | just not from every boss |
| 02:29.46 | Adys | disruptron and hexos' spells do not give durability hits |
| 02:29.54 | Semlar | well i'm a rank 8 brawler and haven't lost durability from any losses |
| 02:30.11 | Adys | disruptron and hexos are both rank 8 |
| 02:30.39 | Semlar | so, they added new bosses that give a durability hit for some reason? |
| 02:30.46 | Semlar | it's supposed to be a pve arena |
| 02:30.48 | Adys | most bosses give a durability hit |
| 02:30.51 | Semlar | no |
| 02:30.53 | Adys | almost all of them in fact |
| 02:30.54 | Adys | yes |
| 02:30.57 | Semlar | no |
| 02:31.00 | Adys | <sigh> |
| 02:31.05 | Primer | pretty sure all do |
| 02:31.10 | Adys | almost all of them yes |
| 02:31.12 | Semlar | you think i didn't fight any bosses before rank 8? |
| 02:31.20 | Primer | I recall repairing after every fail at the potions vendor |
| 02:31.21 | Adys | Semlar: I think you didn't look close enough. |
| 02:31.31 | Adys | disruptron and hexos are the only ones i remember |
| 02:31.33 | kd3 | yah, I screwed up on several and got the 8% hit on a good bunch... yikkan izu comes to mind |
| 02:31.35 | Adys | but there might be more |
| 02:31.55 | Semlar | i died a dozen times on battletron and definitely didn't have to pay for it |
| 02:32.03 | Primer | guild repairs? |
| 02:32.05 | Semlar | no |
| 02:32.06 | Primer | hehe |
| 02:32.22 | Semlar | no fight i ever lost in the brawlers arena gave a durability hit |
| 02:32.36 | TGiFallen | Hey Semlar and kd3, thanks so much, that solved it perfectly. 2 more questions however, 1. I am getting strange behaviour with the addon, basically i open the pvp frame, then my character frame and te character frame is put next to it, but when i close the pvp frame with my addon, the character frame doesn't relocate to the left side of the screen and stays floating in the middle |
| 02:33.08 | Semlar | are you using :Hide() to hide the frame |
| 02:33.20 | Adys | Semlar: here is a screenshot of Ahoo'ru giving durability dmg from right now: http://i.imgur.com/4e3MkAy.jpg |
| 02:33.23 | Semlar | there's an actual function to hide ui elements |
| 02:33.34 | TGiFallen | yes i am |
| 02:33.54 | TGiFallen | ahh, ok, i shall look. Thanks again |
| 02:34.48 | Stanzilla | needs this p3lim guy up in here |
| 02:35.12 | TGiFallen | it works like a beaut. one last thing (I hope) I'm testing custom macro icons, do i have to restart wow for them to load? |
| 02:35.50 | Semlar | i think HideUIPanel is what it's called |
| 02:35.51 | kd3 | generally if you add any new file after the client has started, you'll have to completely restart wow. if you modify already-existing files, you can usually get away with a /reload |
| 02:36.44 | TGiFallen | yeah i found it semlar |
| 02:38.00 | TGiFallen | well, it's confusing kd3, I made an icon that has the number "1" and saved it as a tga with the proper yadda yadda. Then i did a proper alpha mask on the TGA, /reloaded and the icon shows up, but it's only green |
| 02:38.12 | TGiFallen | does wow support transparency in icons? |
| 02:38.27 | Semlar | yes |
| 02:38.28 | Adys | TGiFallen: yes |
| 02:38.32 | kd3 | it does. a solid green texture means the client can't find what you're looking for |
| 02:38.37 | kd3 | (check logs/FrameXML.log) |
| 02:38.40 | TGiFallen | ohh |
| 02:38.43 | Adys | fuck |
| 02:38.48 | Stanzilla | I think I need a new quest auto completion addon |
| 02:38.53 | Adys | wipe 10% on ahoo'ru without flask |
| 02:38.59 | kd3 | sick of clicking dailies works for me |
| 02:39.17 | Stanzilla | does it only do dailies or all quests? |
| 02:39.20 | Semlar | i wrote a quest auto complete into my laziness addon and it was a pain in the ass |
| 02:39.33 | Semlar | there are so many different types of quest dialogs |
| 02:39.44 | kd3 | dailies. I'd assume it could be extended to do everything |
| 02:40.10 | kd3 | it even handles dailies with quest reward options (like the argent tournament one) to automatically pick what I want |
| 02:40.15 | Stanzilla | hrm, currently using monomyth but it accepts stuff so quickly that the blizzard UI bugs out |
| 02:40.18 | kd3 | s/one/ones/ |
| 02:40.28 | Stanzilla | questionmarks don't despawn etc |
| 02:40.29 | TGiFallen | where can i read on this, because you were right kd3, i guess wow "found" it, but didn't load it. I restarted the client and it's there, but now the background is white |
| 02:40.57 | TGiFallen | would i be better for to make a png in photoshop with the transparencies then convert it to a blp? |
| 02:41.04 | Semlar | no |
| 02:41.09 | Semlar | make it a tga in photoshop |
| 02:41.54 | Semlar | then you don't have to convert anything |
| 02:42.04 | kd3 | I swear we've got some page on the wiki about how to format your tgas so wow handles them properly... |
| 02:42.16 | kd3 | grrs as search keeps not turning up what he's looking for |
| 02:42.18 | Semlar | i didn't have to do anything special |
| 02:42.21 | TGiFallen | fair enough, it is currently a tga, guess i did the alpha mask wrong |
| 02:42.29 | Semlar | well it has to be 32 bit |
| 02:42.33 | Semlar | or it won't have an alpha channel |
| 02:42.39 | kd3 | and power-of-two sides |
| 02:42.50 | Semlar | i don't think it wouldn't be green if it didn't have the right dimensions |
| 02:43.12 | TGiFallen | as in 32 bits per pixel |
| 02:43.17 | kd3 | ya |
| 02:43.46 | TGiFallen | maybe i'm just bad, but I find that most wikis kind of suck |
| 02:44.11 | kd3 | the good thing is, they're wikis. if you find something wrong, you can fix it! |
| 02:44.33 | TGiFallen | no, not in the way taht info is wrong, i meant that actually finding info on wiki's can be a pain in the ass |
| 02:49.45 | Shirik | where's Cide |
| 02:49.47 | Shirik | I need him |
| 02:51.36 | TC-work | Oh baby. |
| 02:53.29 | TGiFallen | hey it worked, thanks again guys |
| 02:55.32 | kd3 | huzzah, searching for TGA now turns up http://www.wowpedia.org/TGA_files |
| 02:58.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar|Laptop (~chatzilla@108-218-49-117.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:03.06 | Woho | apparently setting the calendar past 2030 crashes the game |
| 03:03.33 | kd3 | 2030 in particular, or after 2032? |
| 03:03.40 | Semlar|Laptop | ..so you're saying they're predicting the apocalypse? |
| 03:04.07 | TGiFallen | the blizzard calendar comes to an end at 2032 |
| 03:04.21 | Semlar|Laptop | i mean if the calendar doesn't go past a certain point they must know something we don't |
| 03:04.40 | Motig | I don't know if it's 2030 specifically but I had some error in my loop and it crashed showing 2030 |
| 03:04.52 | Motig | sounds abot right then TGiFallen |
| 03:05.04 | TGiFallen | which means |
| 03:05.12 | TGiFallen | that the world (of warcraft) will end aswell |
| 03:05.22 | Motig | expansions till 2030 confirmed |
| 03:05.32 | kd3 | s/2032/2038/ |
| 03:05.51 | Semlar|Laptop | would not want to have to level a new character through all those expansions |
| 03:05.58 | TGiFallen | i cant put my calendar past may 2014 |
| 03:06.16 | Motig | CalendarSetMonth(monthOffset) |
| 03:07.51 | TGiFallen | fuckin icons, i got the alpha masking and all that working, so it has alpha, but when it has alpha, it fucks up the outline on my text |
| 03:08.19 | TGiFallen | but if i mask it around hte border, it makes it collosal |
| 03:08.39 | TGiFallen | http://puu.sh/34b4G.png |
| 03:08.42 | TGiFallen | is what happens |
| 03:10.42 | Adys | ffs |
| 03:10.44 | Adys | they buffed Ahoo'ru |
| 03:11.10 | Adys | ridiculous |
| 03:11.14 | Adys | they completely broke bling |
| 03:11.16 | Adys | blink |
| 03:15.42 | TGiFallen | does anyone know if there is a way to fix that issue with the alpha and hte outlines? |
| 03:22.00 | Stanzilla | Adys: mad? |
| 03:25.51 | Adys | \o/ |
| 03:25.53 | Adys | ahooru down |
| 03:30.41 | Stanzilla | gz! |
| 03:35.59 | TC-work | Has 'congratulations' really gone so far as to be two letters? |
| 03:36.24 | TGiFallen | kind of sucks that skada or recount aren't counting the ox statue bubbles |
| 03:37.38 | Adys | its only my battlegroup's 8th kill |
| 03:37.38 | Adys | wow |
| 03:40.56 | kullervo | TGiFallen: that's why I use world of logs |
| 03:41.34 | kullervo | if it doesn't recognize the fight, the fight doesn't matter |
| 03:43.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar|Laptop (~chatzilla@108-218-49-117.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:43.43 | Stanzilla | that's interesting |
| 03:43.53 | Stanzilla | consindering that it currently does not detect ra-den properly :D |
| 03:46.34 | TGiFallen | can i upload personal logs to world of logs, without htem showing up on my guild? |
| 03:48.43 | Neffi | ]\]' |
| 03:48.46 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, just make a guild called TGiFallen's Logs in WoL or something |
| 03:49.50 | TGiFallen | I figured it'd be something silly like that |
| 03:57.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal` (Torhal@2a00:1a28:1101:3e6::1) |
| 03:59.22 | Fisker | like me Stanzilla |
| 03:59.43 | Stanzilla | why |
| 03:59.56 | Fisker | because we're friends? |
| 04:00.10 | Stanzilla | oh ok |
| 04:07.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (Torhal@2a00:1a28:1101:3e6::1) |
| 04:07.50 | pompy | Cairenn: http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/261728-book-of-tyrael-book-of-diablo/ |
| 04:08.24 | Cairenn | lol |
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| 04:52.39 | airtonix | TC-work: no gz tld :< |
| 04:55.28 | Thunder_Child | ~lart airtonix |
| 04:55.28 | purl | teaches airtonix the basics, including how to RTM |
| 05:00.46 | Arrowmaster | "About to learn a valuable lesson" http://i.imgur.com/i7tW1j5.jpeg |
| 05:02.06 | Cairenn | eeek |
| 05:06.27 | Cairenn | More like "about to be seriously injured" :( |
| 05:13.30 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@c83-250-198-77.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 05:13.30 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 05:33.50 | airtonix | "Like Sisyphus, I Am Bound To Hell" |
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| 05:44.27 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o dolby] by ChanServ |
| 05:51.39 | Ackis | I need a swedish proxy |
| 05:53.50 | tharper | oh? |
| 05:53.53 | tharper | why? |
| 05:54.08 | tharper | https://www.ipredator.se/ |
| 05:55.33 | Ackis | tharper: SimCity Region locked DLC lol |
| 05:55.40 | tharper | hahahaahah |
| 05:56.02 | tharper | doesn't surprise me at all |
| 06:01.51 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 06:18.01 | zenzio | whenever I get to work first, I start to wonder if there's some public holiday that I missed |
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| 06:31.44 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 06:32.08 | Shirik | noooooooooooooo |
| 06:32.17 | Shirik | I have acquired my first mosquito bite of the season |
| 06:32.42 | bluspacecow | *noms shirik* |
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| 06:46.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Xandr (~Xandr@89.101.75.36) |
| 06:54.51 | zenzio | so I had a computer, fairly decent gaming computer, just sitting around doing nothing for nine months. Decided to make it my secondary, linux PC to replace the old one |
| 06:55.22 | zenzio | moved over the HDDs, change the video card to a fanless one, install OS... and fail to load anything once the OS is supposed to start |
| 06:55.44 | Esamynn | whoops! |
| 06:56.06 | zenzio | neither Slackware not Ubuntu. Using a USB boot stick hangs somewhere during the startup process (not the same place every time) |
| 06:56.25 | zenzio | suspect I'll have to swap back the old videocard and see, it's just about the only idea I have left :-| |
| 06:56.35 | Esamynn | that would be a place to start |
| 06:56.49 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (~bluspacec@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 06:56.49 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 06:56.54 | Esamynn | chances are, it's bad hardware and the video card is the new element |
| 06:57.14 | zenzio | would be most disappointed if that turned out to be the problem; I'd dearly like to have it fanless |
| 06:58.04 | Esamynn | you doing something with it that needs a video card beyond the one on the motherboard? |
| 06:59.08 | zenzio | I'm going to pretend my motherboard doesn't have onboard graphics, in an effort to conceal the fact that I forgot the check |
| 06:59.18 | zenzio | it may not have onboard, but I suspect it does :-| |
| 06:59.32 | Esamynn | ~fail zenzio |
| 06:59.32 | purl | zenzio: FAIL! |
| 06:59.53 | zenzio | and no, I only use that computer for regular programs and sometimes watching videos, so onboard should be fine |
| 06:59.54 | Esamynn | I can't think of a motherboard I've purchased this century that didn't |
| 07:00.09 | zenzio | ... yeah :( Checking it out right now to confirm |
| 07:06.22 | zenzio | bleh... it actually doesn't have onboard. But it turns out it's from 2009 o_O |
| 07:06.29 | Esamynn | O_o |
| 07:06.39 | Esamynn | they sell those? |
| 07:06.46 | Esamynn | for desktops? |
| 07:07.02 | zenzio | no, turns out that computer is just from 2009 |
| 07:07.18 | zenzio | didn't think it was that old, it ran modern games just fine. Must've paid a bit for it back then |
| 07:08.17 | Esamynn | actually yes, I forgot, high end boards often don't come with onboard |
| 07:08.36 | Esamynn | because you'd never buy a high end motherboard and not use dedicated video |
| 07:09.07 | zenzio | I could buy an "upgrade pack" (motherboard + CPU + RAM) for $300... but I'll have to check whether the other videocard works |
| 07:13.50 | zenzio | owlcats http://i.imgur.com/RQPSZRL.jpg |
| 07:17.19 | Esamynn | that's wrong |
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| 08:15.49 | Sintacks | I want an addon to change viewport, that sets it back to normal when alt+z :| |
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| 08:31.46 | Esamynn | Sintacks: doesn't sound so hard to write |
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| 08:48.28 | karl_w_w | don't you hate when you have like a 12 character password and you typo on the 11th character |
| 08:48.56 | bluspacecow | lol |
| 08:53.43 | Sintacks | or the 12th |
| 08:56.22 | karl_w_w | 12th is easier to correct |
| 08:56.45 | karl_w_w | is it just me or are trinkets way too powerful compared to other gear |
| 08:56.55 | karl_w_w | even weapons don't seem to make as much difference |
| 08:57.07 | Mr_Rabies | not for feral druids at least |
| 08:57.33 | karl_w_w | yesterday i was doing tot, i was hovering around bottom of dps, got a trinket and equipped it without even reforging went up to 2nd on dps |
| 08:57.53 | karl_w_w | on my enhance sham this was |
| 08:58.50 | Mr_Rabies | i think trinkets' big problem is that they're unintuitive, regardless of anything else |
| 08:58.54 | Mr_Rabies | there's nothing telling you which is better than another for your class |
| 08:59.13 | Mr_Rabies | and it's not like you can try all the options |
| 09:00.29 | Mr_Rabies | every other item (except weapons with procs) are pretty obvious in which is best |
| 09:00.47 | Mr_Rabies | procs make things confusing |
| 09:01.34 | Mr_Rabies | and you can't innately tell proc rate, proc per minute cap, etc, without external theorycrafting which is not good design |
| 09:01.55 | Mr_Rabies | i'm glad they're not just boring stat sticks but i wish it was possible to figure out which is best for which class |
| 09:02.35 | Mr_Rabies | sometimes you'll have 4+ options that are good but two optimal ones, where the two that are worse for you are best for another class |
| 09:03.24 | Mr_Rabies | so your options are roll against someone on something that might not even be an upgrade, or do external theorycrafting outside the game |
| 09:03.27 | airtonix | hey Fisker |
| 09:05.08 | Adys | karl_w_w: don't you hate it when you have a 35 character password using characters from all of ascii, you have to input it on a phone keypad and you notice a typo in the username right as you hit send? |
| 09:05.16 | Adys | cause |
| 09:05.18 | Adys | that happened to me. |
| 09:06.09 | airtonix | Adys: just install keepassdroid |
| 09:06.28 | karl_w_w | ouch |
| 09:07.00 | Adys | airtonix: ? |
| 09:07.25 | airtonix | Adys: you've used keepassx on your computer right? |
| 09:07.26 | nevcairiel | it can copy paste your passwords from your keepass database |
| 09:07.29 | Adys | yes |
| 09:08.10 | Adys | but i would have to have my keepass db on my phone then no? |
| 09:08.14 | airtonix | i store my keepassx databases in my gdrive, then open it on my nexus 4 |
| 09:08.19 | Adys | oh |
| 09:08.23 | Adys | that sounds insecure |
| 09:08.24 | Adys | idk |
| 09:08.43 | Adys | mine has a file key which only exists on my computer so |
| 09:08.44 | nevcairiel | same here, simply store it in google drive |
| 09:09.03 | airtonix | Adys: well i think your problem is using a key file |
| 09:09.12 | nevcairiel | keepassdroid supports key files, iirc |
| 09:09.29 | airtonix | maybe inject an nfc chip in your forearm and use that as the keyfile? |
| 09:10.38 | Adys | nevcairiel: but i would need to store my key file on android :p |
| 09:10.52 | nevcairiel | use a password then |
| 09:11.04 | Adys | i use both *shrugs* |
| 09:16.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Yoshimo (~Miranda@p5493C833.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:16.56 | Adys | Shadowed: ping |
| 09:17.38 | karl_w_w | I don't see how that's a problem Mr_Rabies |
| 09:18.16 | Mr_Rabies | it's not so much a problem as it is against the design intent of almost every other part of the game |
| 09:18.29 | karl_w_w | you look at the stat that's on it and the proc and if they are good stats for you chances are it's a good trinket. sure theorycrafting will tell you which is the best but it doesnt make that much of a difference |
| 09:18.52 | karl_w_w | it's not like you're going to fail cos you have ur 3rd best trinket rather than 2nd |
| 09:19.01 | Mr_Rabies | they generally say they don't want you just looking up what's best on askmrrobot, etc |
| 09:19.33 | karl_w_w | and u don't have to |
| 09:19.45 | Mr_Rabies | but you're generally rolling against other people when you're going for trinkets, so you shouldn't roll for something that's a minor upgrade when it's a huge one for someone else |
| 09:20.00 | ZorbaBeta | personally I wish the whole "rolling against" system would go away |
| 09:20.03 | karl_w_w | they also say they want there to be some rewards there for people who put in that time |
| 09:20.17 | ZorbaBeta | dungeons and raids are 100% cooperative, and then the boss dies and they suddenly turn 100% competitive. it's a massive source of conflict |
| 09:20.27 | Mr_Rabies | but there's no real time |
| 09:20.35 | Mr_Rabies | pick the theorycrafter that works, do what they say |
| 09:20.41 | Mr_Rabies | er that you think is best |
| 09:20.52 | nevcairiel | ZorbaBeta: it would be quite boring if the game just assigns loot randomly |
| 09:21.11 | nevcairiel | this competitive factor makes it a bit more fun for some people |
| 09:21.22 | ZorbaBeta | sure, but *anything* would make it a bit more fun for some people |
| 09:21.31 | Mr_Rabies | not me |
| 09:21.35 | ZorbaBeta | the question is what makes it more fun for the majority of people |
| 09:21.43 | Mr_Rabies | i'm getting upset because i spend all that time capping everything |
| 09:21.48 | nevcairiel | i think its fine this way |
| 09:21.54 | Mr_Rabies | and the guy that plays less gets the loot because he "needs it more" |
| 09:22.02 | nevcairiel | its only competitive if you let it be |
| 09:22.03 | Mr_Rabies | or doesn't bother capping, rather |
| 09:22.16 | Mr_Rabies | so he leapfrogs past me in gear despite doing less work |
| 09:22.31 | nevcairiel | thats your guilds loot systems problem really |
| 09:22.38 | nevcairiel | not something the game needs to solve |
| 09:23.04 | Mr_Rabies | our loot system is generally just a roll and if the other guy's got crap gear he gets it |
| 09:23.32 | Mr_Rabies | so it actually kind of rewards lazy people, but i can't imagine any other system working much better |
| 09:23.57 | ZorbaBeta | social problems are game problems |
| 09:24.00 | Mr_Rabies | dkp, maybe, but that only usually applies to stuff you do within the raids, not the character maintenance outside the raids |
| 09:24.24 | nevcairiel | i disagree, if the game tries to solve all social problems, it will try to dictate how to do things and removing the freedom |
| 09:24.42 | ZorbaBeta | only if it tries to solve them badly |
| 09:24.43 | Mr_Rabies | if our server wasn't dying i'd have gotten a few folks booted due to laziness |
| 09:24.52 | Mr_Rabies | they keep raking in gear because they don't do anything but login to raid |
| 09:25.10 | znf | imho, there is no perfect loot distrubution system |
| 09:25.20 | znf | Everything can be gamed, basically... |
| 09:25.38 | bleeter | znf: there is a perfect loot distro system. It's called 'BLEETER GETS ALL THE THINGS!' :D |
| 09:25.55 | Mr_Rabies | i'm not a loot whore but i'm tired of passing to people who don't try |
| 09:25.57 | ZorbaBeta | in the end, the responsibility for a fun game is the game designer's responsibility. everything ends there, and everything that is un-fun is the designer's responsibility to solve. |
| 09:26.10 | znf | DKP is a decent system (whichever implementation you are using), but there are flaws |
| 09:26.24 | znf | ZorbaBeta, it's not the designer's responsability to assign loot in your group. |
| 09:26.33 | ZorbaBeta | the best solution might be to give the players options, or it might be to not give the players options, but you can't rely on players to come up with the best solution. |
| 09:26.39 | ZorbaBeta | znf, yes it is. loot assignment is a game mechanic |
| 09:26.46 | *** join/#wowuidev VIad (~Vlad@151.117.45.31.customer.cdi.no) |
| 09:26.47 | znf | ZorbaBeta, no, don't be a retard |
| 09:26.56 | znf | People are still crying for the old LFR loot system while the new one is clearly superior |
| 09:27.02 | Mr_Rabies | it's the designers' responsibility to mitigate social stress caused by their systems |
| 09:27.02 | znf | There's no solution that will make everyone happy |
| 09:27.03 | ZorbaBeta | same to you :P WoW already does somewhat complicated loot assignment |
| 09:27.05 | Mr_Rabies | in a social game |
| 09:27.14 | ZorbaBeta | compare WoW's loot assignment to everquest's, for example |
| 09:27.26 | znf | ZorbaBeta, then I guess they should go to the Everquest loot assignment? First one to loot the corpse gets it? |
| 09:27.31 | ZorbaBeta | there's no reason to believe that the current state is the pinnacle of possible looting systems. I personally think that competitive loot is a bad idea in a game that is fundamentally cooperative |
| 09:27.43 | znf | So what? Everyone gets loot on the kill? Or? |
| 09:27.47 | ZorbaBeta | znf, now you really *are* being a retard. "this is suboptimal" does not mean "everything else is better". No, obviously that would be dumb. |
| 09:28.02 | znf | What would your great idea be? |
| 09:28.18 | nevcairiel | he doesnt have one |
| 09:28.19 | Mr_Rabies | just because someone may or may not have a solution doesn't mean the current system isn't flawed |
| 09:28.34 | ZorbaBeta | Personally, yeah, I am a fan of "everyone gets loot on the kill". The idea I've been playing with is that everyone gets the same item, and has an option to trade it in for currency that they can use to buy items. Might be flawed in its own right, but I think it would remove a lot of the conflict with the current system. |
| 09:28.35 | Mr_Rabies | you don't necessarily have to have a fix in mind to see a flaw |
| 09:28.36 | znf | there is no solution. |
| 09:28.40 | bleeter | My great idea for loot distro is "FISKER GETS NOTHING!" |
| 09:28.55 | nevcairiel | ZorbaBeta: that sounds like a terrible idea |
| 09:29.06 | ZorbaBeta | nevcairiel, what don't you like about it? |
| 09:29.08 | znf | ZorbaBeta, you do get the same loot. It's called Valor Points. Deal with it. |
| 09:29.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Darkchaos (~darkchaos@88.130.220.191) |
| 09:29.23 | ZorbaBeta | znf, *most* of the loot value comes from the items dropped, however. |
| 09:29.26 | nevcairiel | might as well remove loot entirely and just hand out currency |
| 09:29.39 | nevcairiel | if everyone gets an item anyway that he can trade for currency |
| 09:29.41 | znf | If I got every possible piece of loot on every boss kill every week then why play more than 2-3 weeks? |
| 09:29.42 | nevcairiel | and 90% will |
| 09:29.43 | Mr_Rabies | that's what most guilds do nowadays anyway |
| 09:29.44 | ZorbaBeta | nev, I think some aspect of random-generation with loot is fun. People like lotteries. |
| 09:29.52 | ZorbaBeta | znf, what makes you think you'd get every possible piece of loot? |
| 09:29.56 | Mr_Rabies | that's what dkp is, basically a secondary VP system |
| 09:29.59 | ZorbaBeta | did you read my suggestion or just discount it without reading it? :P |
| 09:30.15 | Kalroth | discount it! |
| 09:30.15 | znf | ZorbaBeta, I read it. Currencies are bad. |
| 09:30.22 | znf | There's no RNG in there. |
| 09:30.30 | znf | "I need to play 3 more weeks to get X item" |
| 09:30.33 | Kalroth | officer loot is best, dkp is terrible |
| 09:30.37 | znf | boring, dull, feels like a grind |
| 09:30.39 | ZorbaBeta | And that's why I'm suggesting giving everyone the *same* piece of loot straight out, so that everyone has a moment of "zomg I hope my item drops" |
| 09:30.51 | ZorbaBeta | but even if it doesn't, you still get to progress to whatever your next important item is |
| 09:30.52 | Mr_Rabies | officer loot is often dramariffic and takes forever in 25s |
| 09:30.58 | bleeter | I hate you all for not supporting my ideas |
| 09:31.01 | Kalroth | get better officers |
| 09:31.05 | znf | ZorbaBeta, that's retarded in a game like WoW where's different armor classes and weapon types |
| 09:31.13 | znf | Might work in a game that every class/player can use every possible item. |
| 09:31.15 | znf | Not in WoW. |
| 09:31.27 | Mr_Rabies | Kalroth: our realm is dying, easier said than done |
| 09:31.33 | ZorbaBeta | znf, why? yeah, chances are good you won't get a useful piece of equipment, but that's when you turn it into currency |
| 09:31.44 | ZorbaBeta | I mean the same issue happens all the time in 5-mans - "well, shit, nobody can use *that* at all" |
| 09:31.45 | znf | ZorbaBeta, then it turns into a grind. |
| 09:31.45 | Kalroth | Mr_Rabies: switch to GDKP then! |
| 09:31.47 | Mr_Rabies | dkp is at least impartial in that regard |
| 09:31.49 | ZorbaBeta | hell, it happens in 25-mans too |
| 09:31.53 | Mr_Rabies | man, i'd be down for gdkp |
| 09:32.02 | znf | You grind boss kills, basically. |
| 09:32.05 | Mr_Rabies | no one else in our guild has anywhere near as much gold as me |
| 09:32.13 | ZorbaBeta | znf, the current system also turns into a grind eventually. the tricky part is balancing the random aspect, the guaranteed-progression aspect, and the drama aspect. I think the drama aspect is not a net benefit. |
| 09:32.20 | Mr_Rabies | and i've only got about 300k or so |
| 09:32.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Woho (Motig@31-151-161-87.dynamic.upc.nl) |
| 09:32.49 | ZorbaBeta | That said, it's easy enough to swing the balance between "grind" and "random drops are useful" - just give everyone the same *two* random items, each that turns into half as much currency, and now you have a better chance of getting something useful. Or 1.5 random items on average. Or whatever. |
| 09:32.50 | znf | ZorbaBeta, yes, but there's 6 different items dropping in there. |
| 09:32.56 | ZorbaBeta | It's a pretty convenient tuning system. |
| 09:33.20 | Mr_Rabies | they could reward gear based on performance :v |
| 09:33.23 | nevcairiel | back in my raiding days we played with a pretty standard dkp system and later on with a zero-sum system, and we never had any real loot drama |
| 09:33.24 | znf | No, currencies are not good. |
| 09:33.31 | nevcairiel | the competition between the people was actually positive |
| 09:33.49 | znf | We play with our own (well, vhaarr's) DKP system. It's pretty OK, except the Thunderforged items have screwed us over. |
| 09:33.55 | Kalroth | main issue with DKP is that you just have to show up and you get the same rewards for wiping the raid as a good player |
| 09:34.12 | znf | Kalroth, but you can penalize the players that do that. |
| 09:34.13 | Mr_Rabies | we tried dkp for a few weeks then one of our raid leaders randomly transferred to another realm |
| 09:34.16 | Kalroth | znf: how |
| 09:34.23 | Mr_Rabies | a guy that i'd been raiding with for ~3 years |
| 09:34.23 | Kalroth | -50 DKP?!!! |
| 09:34.24 | nevcairiel | 50 dkp minus! |
| 09:34.25 | nevcairiel | :P |
| 09:34.26 | znf | Kalroth, -DKP for fuck ups, but people get upset |
| 09:34.27 | Mr_Rabies | since firelands at least |
| 09:34.28 | Kalroth | hahah |
| 09:34.31 | Kalroth | yeah no |
| 09:34.33 | Mr_Rabies | and our system was basically |
| 09:34.40 | Mr_Rabies | "buy an item, it costs all your dkp" |
| 09:34.49 | Kalroth | -DKP causes more drama than officer loot |
| 09:34.52 | znf | DKP for 10m is silly |
| 09:34.54 | znf | Kalroth, yup. |
| 09:34.58 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, isn't that basically suicide kings? |
| 09:35.00 | znf | DKP is for 25m |
| 09:35.03 | Mr_Rabies | yeah more or less |
| 09:35.08 | Kalroth | "BUT THAT WASNT MY FAULT, JACKASS DIDNT DO WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO" |
| 09:35.18 | Mr_Rabies | it's modified somewhat in ways that i can't remember since we only used it for like 2 weeks before one raid leader left |
| 09:35.21 | Mr_Rabies | and we fell back on rolls |
| 09:35.24 | nevcairiel | we basically had a rule that if you get rotated out of the raid for being terrible, you also lose dkp gains for the night |
| 09:35.32 | Mr_Rabies | and they're awkward and it feels bad competing with so many people on rolls |
| 09:35.42 | Kalroth | zero sum but with extended rules to make it more complicated |
| 09:36.05 | Mr_Rabies | but we're the only 25 man on the server |
| 09:36.12 | znf | imho, one of the simplest loot distrubution method (and imho the fairest) is the RoboCouncil |
| 09:36.20 | nevcairiel | zero sum of course has the problem that if nothing drops, you get no points, so it wasn't ideal in progress times |
| 09:36.38 | Mr_Rabies | i really love 25s |
| 09:36.41 | znf | item drops, Mr. Robot sees for who is the best, you assign it, good stuff |
| 09:36.43 | Mr_Rabies | they're so much more laid back |
| 09:36.54 | znf | ^ typical 10m raider lol |
| 09:36.55 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: zero sum makes people show up for farming though! |
| 09:36.58 | znf | 25s? laid back? |
| 09:37.01 | znf | the fuck is wrong with you? |
| 09:37.04 | Mr_Rabies | in 10s you immediately know who wiped you every time |
| 09:37.11 | nevcairiel | znf: still favors those stupid people that don't bother to get good gear outside of raiding |
| 09:37.22 | Mr_Rabies | you gotta screw around to get all the buffs/debuffs necessary |
| 09:37.28 | nevcairiel | ie. not running lfr and stuff |
| 09:37.35 | Mr_Rabies | it's nice to just go in with friends and relax and not having to worry about that stuff |
| 09:37.48 | znf | nevcairiel, indeed, but at least it's automated and there shouldn't be drama about the decisions "a robot" makes. |
| 09:38.09 | znf | but, imho, the lazy players should be penalized by other means by the guild (no raid spot for you) |
| 09:38.11 | Kalroth | i like robo council |
| 09:38.24 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, but it does create drama in another way, especially if your raid's even having trouble filling spots |
| 09:38.38 | Kalroth | biggest upgrade is often the best, assuming your raid roster is stable |
| 09:38.38 | znf | well, *almost* no drama, Kalroth - "but mr. robot is crap for me!!!111oneone" |
| 09:38.58 | Mr_Rabies | we're bringing in a hunter that does like 30k dps on horridon because we need a body in the spot |
| 09:39.00 | ZorbaBeta | IMHO the fact that there's so much argument over looting systems is an indication that the current looting systems work badly |
| 09:39.26 | Kalroth | looting systems work fine, it's the classes having too many options that's the real issue |
| 09:39.41 | znf | ZorbaBeta, ok, then they should drop the loot on the floor and everyone who picks it up owns it |
| 09:39.46 | Kalroth | paladins/shamans looting tanking, healing and dps gear? bring back vanilla where they could only heal! |
| 09:39.53 | ZorbaBeta | znf, and there would be even more argument over that |
| 09:40.02 | ZorbaBeta | again, "this is bad" does not mean "every alternative would be better" |
| 09:40.03 | Kalroth | warriors looting dps gear? priests looting dps gear?! |
| 09:40.09 | Mr_Rabies | znf, you're not really contributing to the discussion at all :| |
| 09:40.25 | Mr_Rabies | your argument so far is pretty much "you're dumb, shut up" |
| 09:40.26 | Kalroth | (hint: there is no perfect loot system) |
| 09:40.27 | znf | ZorbaBeta, unless you have a solution, you don't get to state that the looting system is flawed for this game. |
| 09:40.28 | ZorbaBeta | seriously, if someone says "I don't want to eat chinese for dinner", do you respond "well maybe we should all eat dog poop then"? :P |
| 09:40.38 | Mr_Rabies | that's wrong, znf |
| 09:40.41 | znf | It puts the loot decision in the players hands. |
| 09:40.44 | znf | That's the best decision. |
| 09:40.55 | ZorbaBeta | dude, players *suck* at figuring out what's fun |
| 09:40.57 | znf | The game doesn't dictate how your random group assigns loot and that's perfect. |
| 09:41.05 | Mr_Rabies | lack of a better option on your behalf doesn't mean you can't say something's flawed |
| 09:41.21 | znf | That's why guilds have rules: When you join, you agree with my loot rules. You don't like it? Move on. |
| 09:42.10 | Mr_Rabies | sure, yeah, but it doesn't mean the design is perfect |
| 09:42.18 | Kalroth | all loot should be handed out randomly, and it should be BoE |
| 09:42.22 | Kalroth | let the winners sort it out |
| 09:42.28 | Mr_Rabies | because you're having to manage around flawed loot rules doesn't make them any less flawed |
| 09:42.48 | Mr_Rabies | built in loot rules, that is |
| 09:43.04 | znf | Mr_Rabies, there's no *rules*. That's the beauty of it. Boss drops dead, has items. Your guild leader/raid leader decides who gets the items trough various rewarding systems. |
| 09:43.33 | ZorbaBeta | znf, should the guild/raid leader also be given the ability to portion out currency? |
| 09:43.42 | znf | ZorbaBeta, which currency? |
| 09:43.46 | ZorbaBeta | All currency. |
| 09:43.59 | Mr_Rabies | i suppose, znf |
| 09:44.21 | znf | No, currency is currency. There's no random factor in that. Boss drops dead, everyone gets equal share of gold and equal VPs. |
| 09:44.34 | znf | And no matter what you do, the rules are baked in. |
| 09:44.57 | ZorbaBeta | So, you *do* believe in looting rules? That the game should be mandating certain loot be given to certain people? |
| 09:45.07 | ZorbaBeta | That the game *should* dictate how loot is assigned? |
| 09:45.16 | znf | ZorbaBeta, are you retarded? Currency is CURRENCY, loot is loot. |
| 09:45.21 | ZorbaBeta | What's the difference? |
| 09:45.22 | nevcairiel | currency isnt typically considered loot |
| 09:45.36 | nevcairiel | the difference is that you can easily split it 25 ways |
| 09:45.37 | ZorbaBeta | They're both things you get from killing the boss that make you more powerful. |
| 09:45.51 | znf | ZorbaBeta, it's a fantasy based game with magical flying dragons. Normal economy rules don't apply withing games. |
| 09:45.54 | ZorbaBeta | Okay, here's an easy solution: Give every player the same item. That's easily split 25 ways. Problem solved. |
| 09:45.56 | znf | within* |
| 09:46.00 | ZorbaBeta | That counts as "currency", right? |
| 09:46.06 | nevcairiel | ZorbaBeta: sure, its fair |
| 09:46.08 | znf | ZorbaBeta, no, stop trying to confuse a game for a democracy. |
| 09:46.11 | nevcairiel | but its also boring and annoying |
| 09:46.13 | Mr_Rabies | namecalling doesn't really help your case any, znf |
| 09:46.14 | Kalroth | ZorbaBeta: what about the players sitting outside?! |
| 09:46.19 | ZorbaBeta | Seriously, what I'm getting at here is that your rules are inconsistent and arbitrary. You want the current system only because you're familiar with it. |
| 09:46.27 | Kalroth | Mr_Rabies: ur such a fisker! |
| 09:46.30 | nevcairiel | any rules are arbitrary |
| 09:46.40 | Mr_Rabies | that hurts, Kalroth |
| 09:46.45 | Mr_Rabies | right here |
| 09:46.50 | znf | ZorbaBeta, no, I want the current system because it's been in use for 7 years by 10+ million of people without major objections. |
| 09:46.56 | Mr_Rabies | points at his hindbrain |
| 09:47.11 | ZorbaBeta | Yes, they are. Which is why I think it's important to be willing to discuss new rulesystems, not make grand proclamations like "the game doesn't dictate how your random group assigns loot and that's perfect" when that statement is obviously and trivially false |
| 09:47.24 | ZorbaBeta | znf, you kidding? loot drama has been a source of major objections since day one |
| 09:47.27 | znf | And the game doesn't try to dictate to MY GUILD on how to assign the loot that makes my group more powerful |
| 09:47.32 | znf | ZorbaBeta, play with better people then. |
| 09:47.41 | Mr_Rabies | something being "the way it's been for years" is never a valid reason to support something |
| 09:47.41 | Kalroth | play with officer loot |
| 09:47.43 | znf | Again: there's guild rules that every member agrees when they join. |
| 09:47.44 | ZorbaBeta | Yes, it does. It already dictates currency. There's no reason it shouldn't dictate other things as well. |
| 09:48.06 | znf | If you're a source of drama over loot in a guild, there's the door ---> |
| 09:48.18 | Kalroth | we told loot whiners to go make a forum post about it, so everybody in the guild could discuss the distribution |
| 09:48.21 | Kalroth | noone ever did |
| 09:48.42 | znf | We've had 2 or 3 loot dramas in the guild over the years. We invited the person who brought it up to /gquit |
| 09:48.46 | znf | One did, the others didn't. |
| 09:48.55 | Mr_Rabies | what if you're the source of drama because you're an 80 year old retired cop who is paralyzed on half of his body because of a bullet going through his spine and you don't really intend to cause loot drama |
| 09:48.58 | znf | (The one who left was a trialist, so fuck him) |
| 09:49.01 | Mr_Rabies | because we've sorta got that going on |
| 09:49.16 | Kalroth | Mr_Rabies: who cares who or what you are outside the game |
| 09:49.37 | Mr_Rabies | is it entirely about the numbers, then? |
| 09:49.38 | Kalroth | only way to get better loot is to show boobies |
| 09:49.44 | znf | I should get all the loot because I can impregnate 5 chicks in 1 hour and I have a godzilla cock. How about *that* arbitrary rule? |
| 09:49.46 | Kalroth | or moobies |
| 09:49.52 | Mr_Rabies | i guess it has to be in heavy-progression guilds |
| 09:50.07 | znf | Mr_Rabies, every guild choses their own system. |
| 09:50.13 | Kalroth | "urrrgh, i have deadly cancer and im dying next week can i pls hav that legendary???" |
| 09:50.32 | znf | We basically had a rogue going MIA the 2nd week he got his Legendary daggers in DS |
| 09:50.34 | Kalroth | answer: "no, if you're dying next week, then you looting that item wont benefit the guild much" |
| 09:50.36 | znf | we were like... "wtf?" |
| 09:50.53 | znf | last time we did that mistake |
| 09:51.16 | znf | Guild Master / Officers decide on who to give the legendary loot now based on performance and commitment. |
| 09:51.18 | Kalroth | we had a huntard gquit the day after he got 8/8 tier 2 back in vanilla :) |
| 09:51.24 | Mr_Rabies | we had several tanks leave in vanilla when almot every guild's loot rules were "we gear the tank and everyone else fights over leftovers like a pack of hyenas" |
| 09:51.32 | Mr_Rabies | they'd join other guilds totally decked out |
| 09:51.38 | Mr_Rabies | who'd love them because they could actually get loot |
| 09:51.42 | Kalroth | we did that too, but it was needed |
| 09:51.57 | Kalroth | tanks that lived longer meant we did better on progression fights |
| 09:52.04 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 09:52.08 | Mr_Rabies | i don't miss those days at all |
| 09:52.13 | znf | The foundation of a guild are the tanks, tbh. If your guild doesn't have at least one core member of a tank, it's risky :P |
| 09:52.19 | Kalroth | since almost all of the vanilla fights were tank/healer based, very few dps checks |
| 09:52.24 | Mr_Rabies | i have very little nostalgia over vanilla |
| 09:52.31 | Mr_Rabies | almost all my nostalgia is playing with friends |
| 09:52.35 | Mr_Rabies | not anything to do with game design |
| 09:52.44 | ZorbaBeta | my wife's guild was fascinating because they geared up DPS first. almost every fight, to them, turned into a DPS race |
| 09:52.49 | Kalroth | i liked c'thun in vanilla, it was a really, really hard fight |
| 09:52.59 | Mr_Rabies | it wasn't so much that it was hard |
| 09:53.16 | Mr_Rabies | as it was most guilds had exploded in a seeping pile of drama by the time twin emps died |
| 09:53.21 | Kalroth | haha |
| 09:53.41 | Kalroth | we actually killed twins pretty quickly, mainly because we abused warrior shout threat :P |
| 09:53.55 | Mr_Rabies | neither of those fights are particularly hard for anyone but like...the lock tank |
| 09:53.56 | znf | DPS races are fun |
| 09:54.04 | Mr_Rabies | and other gimmicky stuff like that |
| 09:54.05 | znf | sure, sometimes it leads to absurdly retarded deaths |
| 09:54.15 | znf | but it's what makes the game fun for me |
| 09:54.16 | Mr_Rabies | the rest is all getting gear and getting the right gear, really |
| 09:54.21 | Kalroth | twins was fun at first, but got boring really quickly |
| 09:54.29 | Kalroth | c'thun was fun even in TBC |
| 09:54.37 | Mr_Rabies | vanilla raids are so boring in hindsight, until naxx |
| 09:54.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Xandr (~Xandr@89.101.75.36) |
| 09:54.55 | Mr_Rabies | even naxx has its share of needlessly long fights with basically no mechanics |
| 09:55.01 | Mr_Rabies | that just need gear to surpass |
| 09:55.01 | znf | We're doing Council on normal, still, and my guild always goes "DO NOT PULL THREATH ON SUL AGAIN, PLEASE" |
| 09:55.08 | Kalroth | Ragnaros is still a cool fight, and personally i liked Razorgore a lot |
| 09:55.09 | znf | Every time I burst 400k dps and pull it ^^ that's fun :D |
| 09:55.23 | Mr_Rabies | razorgore almost killed my guild at the time |
| 09:55.28 | Kalroth | haha |
| 09:55.29 | Mr_Rabies | we went in on night #1 and it was so broken |
| 09:55.38 | Mr_Rabies | but we were in there for 8-9 hours |
| 09:55.44 | Mr_Rabies | trying to get a bug-free pull in |
| 09:56.20 | Kalroth | we did the hunter kite, shaman slowing totem, 4 corners strat |
| 09:56.24 | Kalroth | it took a while before it clicked |
| 09:56.49 | Mr_Rabies | i think it is somewhat up to the games' designers to mitigate potential social problems, and i think they've done a reasonably good job with that by adding valor points |
| 09:57.04 | Kalroth | fuck badges! |
| 09:57.11 | Mr_Rabies | however in some cases it just pushes the social problem to "those that don't bother capping vp get 522 gear faster" |
| 09:57.14 | Kalroth | it killed proper raiding |
| 09:57.32 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 09:57.34 | Mr_Rabies | proper raiding |
| 09:57.37 | nevcairiel | whatever you do, it'll most likely go both ways |
| 09:57.53 | Mr_Rabies | going to raids every night for 6 months and never seeing a piece of gear you can use even drop |
| 09:58.08 | Mr_Rabies | no thanks |
| 09:58.11 | znf | stop raiding 10 mans then |
| 09:58.16 | Mr_Rabies | this was 40 man |
| 09:58.23 | ZorbaBeta | that's one of the big problems with any social change - whatever you do, people will say "it killed proper ________" |
| 09:58.26 | znf | why are you even talking aboiut the dark ages? |
| 09:58.32 | nevcairiel | yeah, proper raiding didnt have 25 or 10, it had 40! |
| 09:58.35 | Mr_Rabies | read a bit more and you'll maybe be able to talk with us here |
| 09:58.45 | ZorbaBeta | Path of Exile just added a new loot mode that *isn't* free-for-all and there's people metaphorically screaming from rooftops about the death of the game |
| 09:58.58 | Mr_Rabies | instead of simply interjecting with poorly-informed insults from time to time |
| 09:59.03 | znf | ZorbaBeta, good for them. That system of "whoever clicks the item first gets it" was retarded. |
| 09:59.11 | znf | Well, can't expect much from a retarded game. |
| 09:59.22 | ZorbaBeta | znf, I agree. I think, in ten years, we'll be looking back on loot councils and talking about how retarded they are :V |
| 09:59.50 | Mr_Rabies | i like diablo 3's loot system, for diablo 3, it'd never work in that capacity in other genres |
| 09:59.55 | Kalroth | how good they are* |
| 10:00.04 | Kalroth | Mr_Rabies: d3 is a single player game ... |
| 10:00.09 | Mr_Rabies | the itemization is a bit iffy at times but the actual loot system works |
| 10:00.12 | znf | I would hate to do a loot council, though |
| 10:00.17 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, what's the loot system? I haven't played that one, I'll admit |
| 10:00.21 | Mr_Rabies | to some people, maybe, Kalroth |
| 10:00.30 | Mr_Rabies | everyone gets their own loot, ZorbaBeta |
| 10:00.32 | znf | ZorbaBeta, nothing binds. Loot is invididual. |
| 10:00.34 | ZorbaBeta | ah, nod |
| 10:00.37 | znf | But loot is completely random. |
| 10:00.44 | Mr_Rabies | so there's no penalty to playing in a group |
| 10:00.51 | znf | ie: stats are random |
| 10:00.53 | znf | and no armor type |
| 10:00.54 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, it's got its advantages. the downside to that method, that seems to keep catching people by surprise for some unknown reason, is massive loot inflation |
| 10:01.21 | Mr_Rabies | loot inflation is kind of just a thing in ARPGs |
| 10:01.36 | Mr_Rabies | they tried to mitigate some of it with the crafting system but it didn't work too well |
| 10:01.55 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, well, it's not inflation in the sense of "you get better gear as you progress", it's inflation in the sense of "gear that is better than anything you'll ever find is available dirt-cheap, the best gear takes months of farming to get" |
| 10:02.02 | Mr_Rabies | if there's so much loot dropping that it feels good, there's going to be an absolute ton in the economy |
| 10:02.05 | ZorbaBeta | which is just inevitable when you don't have bound items or item destruction |
| 10:02.12 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 10:02.13 | ZorbaBeta | *nod* yeah |
| 10:02.20 | Mr_Rabies | it's part of the design of D3 though |
| 10:02.31 | Mr_Rabies | they know it's going to lead to that but they don't really care |
| 10:02.34 | Mr_Rabies | it's not like wow |
| 10:02.41 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, I'm just surprised when players get shocked by it |
| 10:02.48 | Mr_Rabies | well, players are dumb |
| 10:02.54 | Mr_Rabies | especially people that play blizzard games |
| 10:02.59 | Mr_Rabies | change anything |
| 10:03.02 | Mr_Rabies | anything |
| 10:03.03 | ZorbaBeta | "I love everything about D3! Especially the fact that gear isn't bound! I just wish it wasn't possible to get ultrapowerful gear for metaphorical pennies" |
| 10:03.05 | Mr_Rabies | and people will complain |
| 10:03.06 | znf | I only got shocked by that retardness of the PoE game mechanics. |
| 10:03.11 | ZorbaBeta | so, uh, yeah, you can't really split those two apart |
| 10:03.19 | znf | ZorbaBeta, you can get it for real pennies, too. |
| 10:03.22 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, eh, take the word "blizzard" out of that and it's still true |
| 10:03.26 | Mr_Rabies | even if D3 was literally D2 with 3d graphics like some of these idiots want |
| 10:03.33 | Mr_Rabies | they'd complain |
| 10:03.38 | ZorbaBeta | seriously, I've started describing game development as the process of tricking players into having fun despite their best efforts |
| 10:03.40 | Mr_Rabies | hell, they did before we even knew any gameplay mechanics |
| 10:03.58 | ZorbaBeta | you'd be *amazed* how much work players will put into being bored and hating the game |
| 10:04.09 | Mr_Rabies | blizzard games and MOBA games seem to be the worst offenders, though, ZorbaBeta |
| 10:04.17 | ZorbaBeta | it's like every player's first instinct. "Wow! This game is fun! I wonder how I can make it boring instead!" no fuck you stop that >:( |
| 10:04.22 | Mr_Rabies | something about how the community works |
| 10:04.29 | znf | Mr_Rabies, you mean popular games. |
| 10:04.33 | Mr_Rabies | i guess they're marginally more social than the average fps |
| 10:04.43 | ZorbaBeta | I don't think it's community, I think it's human psychology. We want to be better at games and learn how to "beat" them |
| 10:04.53 | Mr_Rabies | people don't really complain as much about say, changes to items in TF2 |
| 10:04.59 | Mr_Rabies | or anything |
| 10:05.02 | ZorbaBeta | but once you've figured out how to break the game and be ultra-powerful, the challenge is gone. and in many games, the fun comes from the challenge |
| 10:05.29 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, that's a problem in minecraft and some other games |
| 10:05.39 | Mr_Rabies | once you break the initial challenge there's not much substance |
| 10:05.46 | ZorbaBeta | that's why MMOs are basically challenge treadmills - every time you get bored of one challenge, they have another challenge to wave in your face, with a few sparkly gems taped to it in case you've forgotten that challenges are fun |
| 10:05.48 | Mr_Rabies | DayZ, for instance |
| 10:06.09 | ZorbaBeta | people think the bosses are an excuse to get gear, but really the gear is an excuse to kill bosses |
| 10:06.11 | Mr_Rabies | once you manage to get some homeostasis you're generally safe until someone you can't see shoots you in the head |
| 10:07.00 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, to me, gear's mostly just a way that i can keep up with the challenge and hopefully still stay towards the top of the dps meters for non-gimmicky fights |
| 10:07.06 | Mr_Rabies | i'm looking at you, horridon |
| 10:07.21 | Mr_Rabies | the only way i can get anywhere on the charts until the final phase is to aoe spam the whole fight |
| 10:07.33 | Mr_Rabies | which isn't actually helping us very much |
| 10:07.52 | Mr_Rabies | you should be mostly burning down specific targets and i do literally half the average dps when i do that |
| 10:08.03 | Mr_Rabies | 50% of what i do when i blindly aoe |
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| 10:09.58 | Mr_Rabies | ZorbaBeta: i agree that often developers have to go against the hivemind's idea of a good game to truly make a good game |
| 10:10.09 | Mr_Rabies | but i can't see dailies fitting into that mold at all :p |
| 10:10.16 | Mr_Rabies | i just can't see at all how they're good design |
| 10:10.19 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, I'm divided about dailies |
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| 10:10.26 | Mr_Rabies | even for a cynical longevity point of view |
| 10:10.26 | ZorbaBeta | part of the reason for them, I think, is to just bring people back to the game |
| 10:10.34 | ZorbaBeta | but that also leads to people burning out |
| 10:10.40 | Mr_Rabies | it makes the carrot on the stick way too obvious |
| 10:10.47 | Mr_Rabies | which is a big, big no-no with an mmorpg |
| 10:10.48 | karl_w_w | tbh znf anytime some dps pulls threat on the main target the tank is terrible! |
| 10:11.09 | ZorbaBeta | I think one issue is that they're too time-consuming for the value and not fun enough |
| 10:11.20 | Mr_Rabies | the carrot on the stick is supposed to be a design element that shouldn't be obvious, but is necessary in an mmo |
| 10:11.34 | xyphoid_ | see i think achievements are the ultimate carrot |
| 10:11.42 | ZorbaBeta | in the end, I think a lot of developers confuse "playing the game" and "having fun with the game", and the result is things like dailies. That said, I'm not sure I have a better solution :/ |
| 10:11.56 | Mr_Rabies | they're not related to the story any, the reward is so small, they take too long, they're repetitive, they diminish the overall value of questing in general |
| 10:12.23 | xyphoid_ | if you removed the golden lotus dailies would things have been fine |
| 10:12.28 | ZorbaBeta | it'd be interesting to have a plotline with one quest per day |
| 10:12.40 | xyphoid_ | like i didn't find the klaxxi, shieldwall, cloud serpent, etc dailies that bad |
| 10:12.51 | Mr_Rabies | the game would be better without them, and instead a time-gated storyline quest with every patch and maybe some fun optional dailies with fun as the only reward, so they're not mandatory |
| 10:12.55 | ZorbaBeta | like, not repeating a quest, but simply advancing slowly through the plot |
| 10:13.03 | Mr_Rabies | yeah, exactly |
| 10:13.11 | xyphoid_ | but golden lotus was just a combination of gating for content and boring quests that threw everything else into relief |
| 10:13.13 | Mr_Rabies | like the storyline quests with 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 are fun |
| 10:13.23 | xyphoid_ | i mean the shieldwall dailies were great because they mixed in lots of storyline quests |
| 10:13.26 | Mr_Rabies | but the dailies are just...bad design from way too many standpoints |
| 10:13.30 | Mr_Rabies | no, the dailies weren't |
| 10:13.32 | Mr_Rabies | the storyline quests were |
| 10:13.38 | Mr_Rabies | the dailies were totally asinine |
| 10:13.49 | Mr_Rabies | they were like OH HEY KILL THESE GUYS GET [TINY REWARD] |
| 10:14.02 | Mr_Rabies | the quest text wasn't interesting, so i started skipping quest text |
| 10:14.29 | Mr_Rabies | this is a guy that had loremaster of outland the day achivements were added, minus ONE quest |
| 10:14.36 | Mr_Rabies | and i wasn't reading quest text |
| 10:14.48 | Mr_Rabies | i read all of those quests, but skip the daily quest text now |
| 10:14.51 | znf | karl_w_w, it's not the main target! :P |
| 10:15.05 | ZorbaBeta | it's one of those things that's changed gradually as gamers have evolved |
| 10:15.06 | xyphoid_ | there is so much scope for more loremaster-style content |
| 10:15.09 | ZorbaBeta | people used to read quest text |
| 10:15.10 | ZorbaBeta | they don't anymore |
| 10:15.19 | ZorbaBeta | today, if you want to have plot in quests, you need to build it into the quest mechanics themselves |
| 10:15.29 | xyphoid_ | i love the lore scrolls around mists, do that for the old world |
| 10:15.30 | Mr_Rabies | dailies have diluted how much you get from reading quest text on average |
| 10:15.41 | znf | xyphoid_, I haven't read a single one of them. |
| 10:15.51 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, and I think developers started using quest text to just repeat the quest info |
| 10:15.55 | znf | yet I read the quest text from lvl87 to lvl90 |
| 10:16.18 | ZorbaBeta | "Greeting, Xxsephirothxx! We are having food problems! (three paragraphs about how hungry they are) Fetch me six bear butts, if you would." |
| 10:16.27 | ZorbaBeta | "GOAL: Collect 6 bear butts (0/6)" |
| 10:16.30 | Mr_Rabies | pretty much none of the dailies since they were really added in tbc have had text worth reading |
| 10:16.34 | karl_w_w | znf: if your main target isn't sul you're doing it wrong :P |
| 10:16.43 | ZorbaBeta | no I do not want to read that quest text, thank you, it is not interesting |
| 10:16.56 | znf | karl_w_w, we stack them up and aoeing the shit out of them |
| 10:17.10 | Mr_Rabies | i think they're just...bad in general |
| 10:17.13 | Mr_Rabies | they look good on paper |
| 10:17.45 | Mr_Rabies | they're probably preferable to farming furbolgs for hours and hours for some people, but to me it's basically the same thing |
| 10:17.51 | znf | though last night I did get killed by horridon hc because one hunter forgot to missdirect :( |
| 10:17.55 | xyphoid_ | i would kind of prefer if you could do either |
| 10:18.06 | Mr_Rabies | i'd prefer there being 3 options |
| 10:18.15 | Mr_Rabies | i dunno |
| 10:18.18 | Mr_Rabies | maybe not |
| 10:18.30 | ZorbaBeta | I personally think the classic EQ-style MMO is a dying genre. New MMOs will have to do something very different |
| 10:18.52 | Mr_Rabies | to me, what makes wow is what it does differently to EQ, not what it does the same |
| 10:19.01 | ZorbaBeta | the next major successful MMO isn't going to have quests as we currently imagine them. Maybe GW2 was going in the right direction, maybe not, we'll see. |
| 10:19.02 | Mr_Rabies | anything that it does the same or similar to EQ is something probably worth changing |
| 10:19.11 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, yeah, I'd agree with that |
| 10:19.28 | Mr_Rabies | their goal from day 1 was to differentiate themselves from EQ |
| 10:19.43 | ZorbaBeta | and I think that's true with modern wow spinoffs, too - if you copy from WoW, it might be a mistake. |
| 10:19.50 | ZorbaBeta | I'm really tired of the WoW-model inventory system for example |
| 10:19.56 | ZorbaBeta | it is boring and annoying |
| 10:19.57 | Mr_Rabies | i think the next successful MMO is going to be much the same for WoW as WoW is to EQ |
| 10:19.58 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 10:20.13 | Mr_Rabies | the problem is every MMO tries to be wow because it's successful |
| 10:20.16 | ZorbaBeta | I like how Defiance did it. Fuck the bank, you just have a pile of objects, done. |
| 10:20.21 | xyphoid_ | neverwinter was promising but hahahaha |
| 10:20.38 | ZorbaBeta | as much as I hate to trash gaming companies . . . it's a Cryptic game, I wasn't expecting a lot :/ |
| 10:20.48 | Mr_Rabies | but WoW has the advantage of 1) being WoW, having all those years of experience in good and bad design 2) being able to latch on to the best aspects of other MMOs very quickly |
| 10:21.14 | xyphoid_ | i'd like to see wow follow on from pet battles and do more independent systems |
| 10:21.14 | Mr_Rabies | if they're going to keep making games that are like "WoW, but with all the mistakes of [OLD EXPANSION] |
| 10:21.24 | Mr_Rabies | they're gonna end up with lots and lots of mediocre mmos |
| 10:21.29 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, agreed |
| 10:21.40 | xyphoid_ | like why not build a full on city building/resource game on top of WoW |
| 10:21.50 | ZorbaBeta | xyphoid, because most players won't want that :V |
| 10:22.01 | Mr_Rabies | imagine this xyphoid_ |
| 10:22.04 | Mr_Rabies | a warcraft game |
| 10:22.05 | ZorbaBeta | actually, good place to mention it - if someone wants to play a *real* citybuilding/resource game, check out A Tale In The Desert |
| 10:22.06 | Mr_Rabies | but |
| 10:22.11 | Mr_Rabies | it's an RTS! :O:O:OO:OO:O |
| 10:22.12 | ZorbaBeta | a great example of *not* following WoW in the least |
| 10:22.16 | xyphoid_ | haha I remember atitd |
| 10:22.18 | Mr_Rabies | brb writing blizzard with my genius idea |
| 10:22.19 | xyphoid_ | that's still going? |
| 10:22.34 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, every time the game is finished it gets restarted at the beginning with new game mechanics |
| 10:22.41 | xyphoid_ | what tale are they up to |
| 10:22.45 | ZorbaBeta | it's not ultra-popular but given its small developer count, they're doing very well |
| 10:22.47 | ZorbaBeta | 6, I believe |
| 10:23.11 | ZorbaBeta | one of my friends won 4. he was the richest person on the server by far, and even today, people are still using his tools |
| 10:23.15 | Mr_Rabies | i think the oldest mechanics in wow are those that are in the need of the most work |
| 10:23.28 | Mr_Rabies | the professions system, the inventory, etc |
| 10:23.37 | Mr_Rabies | those have basically not changed since release, at the latest |
| 10:23.54 | ZorbaBeta | rabies, agreed. I was toying with a game for a while that I jokingly called "World of Craftcraft" |
| 10:24.03 | ZorbaBeta | I wanted to make a really deep game based almost entirely around crafting |
| 10:24.08 | ZorbaBeta | never got too far, unfortunately, but what I had was quite fun |
| 10:24.13 | Mr_Rabies | professions are needlessly complicated |
| 10:24.26 | Mr_Rabies | i think gathering should be something innate to each character |
| 10:24.28 | ZorbaBeta | the problem is that they're complicated in boring ways |
| 10:24.41 | ZorbaBeta | I think they should either be simplified or made fun. as it is, they're just dull |
| 10:24.51 | ZorbaBeta | you wouldn't even make a cellphone game based on WoW's crafting system |
| 10:25.20 | Mr_Rabies | i'm glad they decided to not make farming a profession and instead gave it to everyone |
| 10:25.31 | Mr_Rabies | that proves that the idea of professions is kinda dated |
| 10:25.50 | Mr_Rabies | they very well could have made it a secondary profession, all of which are basically dead |
| 10:26.05 | xyphoid_ | free realms had fun professions they should have cribbed that |
| 10:26.12 | xyphoid_ | isn't eve adding a minigame for gathering too |
| 10:26.13 | Mr_Rabies | there's no reason to make bandages, fishing is terrible, and archaeology is half-baked at best |
| 10:26.54 | xyphoid_ | archaeology is pretty funny after the nerf - how long was 1-525 archaeology at cata release? weeks? |
| 10:27.38 | Mr_Rabies | it's obvious that professions are one of the biggest flaws with the game currently and they're working on them but i think they're basically doing with them what they did with talents in cata |
| 10:27.51 | Mr_Rabies | bandaids, but ignoring the actual source of the problem |
| 10:28.14 | ZorbaBeta | anyway, off to work. cya all |
| 10:28.21 | Mr_Rabies | it's 6:30 AM so |
| 10:28.22 | Mr_Rabies | yeah |
| 10:28.25 | Mr_Rabies | i should sleep |
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| 10:45.50 | karl_w_w | http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/261614-mo-bag-space-please/ I think it's pretty clear at this stage that they're going to remove gear from inventories |
| 10:46.06 | whyzerman | bout fucking time |
| 10:51.43 | karl_w_w | wouldn't be at all surprised if it doesn't happen til next expac though |
| 10:53.15 | VIad | well |
| 10:53.23 | VIad | I got tons of soulbound gear from festivities |
| 10:53.29 | VIad | like all the pilgrim clothes |
| 10:53.48 | VIad | and bits and pieces that you can just trash but on the other hand you do have to "farm" for them :p |
| 10:54.08 | VIad | also mop gave you like 20 useless vanity items that also take up space |
| 10:54.15 | VIad | those while you quested |
| 10:57.31 | VIad | karl_w_w: any idea how they will free up space? :P |
| 11:22.57 | airtonix | http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNjI0NzY2NTY5OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODgyODIxOA@@._V1._SX640_SY278_.jpg |
| 11:23.12 | airtonix | rocket racoon.... ohhhh yeah |
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| 11:56.37 | whyzerman | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ffuEC7994w |
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| 12:49.29 | karl_w_w | herbalism or mining? |
| 12:53.20 | karl_w_w | herbalism it is |
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| 13:02.52 | Semlar | herbalism might have a more useful bonus |
| 13:03.57 | karl_w_w | yeah |
| 13:04.30 | karl_w_w | especially on a rouge (sic) |
| 13:04.32 | zenzio | peppy: http://i.imgur.com/RQPSZRL.jpg |
| 13:07.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Ressy (~resa1983@unaffiliated/ressy) |
| 13:08.22 | Lopeppeppy | Wow, the chibi eyes on the bottom right cat. |
| 13:12.06 | Kalroth | its the cutest cawl ever |
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| 13:38.29 | alestane | The owlbears' smaller, more adorable cousins. |
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| 13:51.24 | Lopeppeppy | Hoooooooooot! |
| 13:51.30 | Lopeppeppy | Makes me want to go hang out in Ashenvale. |
| 13:59.58 | zenzio | not after Cataclysm :( That zone used to be great |
| 14:00.35 | Lopeppeppy | Haven't visited since it was destroyed. |
| 14:05.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Telshin (~textual@76.164.170.2) |
| 14:11.50 | alestane | I have the windows open, but it's supposed to get up close to 90 today. |
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| 14:15.34 | Kalroth | alestane: make sure not to fart then |
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| 14:54.29 | Gnarfoz | http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/51712791763/using-unorthodox-tricks-a-k-a-hacking o_O |
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| 14:56.13 | Unkle | station |
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| 16:01.12 | Lopeppeppy | Oh gods, I've been bitten by some kind of Fashion Bug. I want throw pillows. *blink blink* |
| 16:01.44 | Humbedooh | fashionably throws a few pillows at Lopeppeppy |
| 16:02.10 | Shirik | I always found throw pillows to be annoying |
| 16:02.38 | Shirik | you would sit on the couch or whatever and not be able to lay down because they're uncomfortable and in the way |
| 16:02.39 | Unkle | Lopeppeppy: next you're going to want an end table and a nice lamp. |
| 16:03.02 | alestane | I though at first that you were saying you wanted to throw pillows around to get out your frustration over this fashion bug, Lopeppeppy. |
| 16:03.26 | *** join/#wowuidev g0urra (~g0urra@unaffiliated/gourra) |
| 16:03.28 | Lopeppeppy | Shirik, I want them so I can lay out full length on the couch and have something to prop me up while I read. Next to my end table and lamp, Unkle! |
| 16:03.46 | alestane | "It's a good chair, right, Bjørn?" "Ja, Sven, stylish AND functional." |
| 16:04.06 | karl_w_w | throw pillow-related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp0-8Ibkczc |
| 16:04.13 | Unkle | See? Interior Design - It's infectious. |
| 16:04.35 | Lopeppeppy | I can has House. I can has designs. So there. |
| 16:05.06 | Lopeppeppy | I'd have been bloody happy to have the house last night, for a Basement of Weather Hiding. |
| 16:05.57 | Unkle | :D |
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| 16:11.12 | Kraps | ~piing |
| 16:11.14 | Kraps | ~ping |
| 16:11.14 | purl | ~pong |
| 16:13.26 | karl_w_w | ~pong |
| 16:13.26 | purl | ~ping |
| 16:16.04 | g0urra | ~pong |
| 16:16.04 | purl | ~ping |
| 16:16.31 | g0urra | ~pong |
| 16:16.31 | purl | ~ping |
| 16:18.47 | karl_w_w | ~pong |
| 16:18.47 | purl | ~ping |
| 16:18.53 | karl_w_w | are we winning? |
| 16:21.32 | RythalWork | I'm not sure you can win against a bot |
| 16:24.22 | RythalWork | strange.. I got 25k valor achievement.... then 10 minutes later got 100k valor achievement.. totally skipping over 50k.. nevermind there's no way I earned 75k valor in 10 minutes |
| 16:25.53 | karl_w_w | 100k is account-wide, 25/50k aren't |
| 16:26.36 | *** join/#wowuidev jane (~jane@unaffiliated/jane) |
| 16:26.52 | RythalWork | well that explains that.. and makes much more sense .... tho I wish I had 75k valor to spend. |
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| 16:58.22 | Lopeppeppy | Mmm, I also need a nail gun. Maybe not so Fashion Bug after all. |
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| 17:40.39 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 17:49.19 | Arrowmaster | www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fines-massive-chalice |
| 17:50.27 | TC-work | Really? I wonder if they are doing too much at once. |
| 17:51.15 | Arrowmaster | they have 3 different teams |
| 17:52.01 | Arrowmaster | watch the video |
| 17:52.20 | Arrowmaster | this idea sounds great but they dont get to it till near the end of the video |
| 17:55.41 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (~textual@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 17:55.41 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 17:56.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Ketho (~ngsc@ip565063bd.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 17:59.29 | Kraps | Titan Project Delayed Until 2016 |
| 17:59.55 | Lopeppeppy | Rumor, or actual published by Blizzard fact? Because there's tons of *rumor* about that, but no confirmed fact. |
| 18:00.37 | Kraps | The Blizzard family of websites is currently undergoing maintenance to improve your browsing experience. Thank you for your patience! |
| 18:01.00 | Lopeppeppy | Awwwww. Cuddly. |
| 18:01.48 | Kraps | In a statement, Blizzard spokesman Shon Damron said, “We’ve always had a highly iterative development process, and the unannounced MMO is no exception. We’ve come to a point where we need to make some large design and technology changes to the game. We’re using this opportunity to shift some of our resources to assist with other projects while the core team adapts our technology and... |
| 18:01.50 | Kraps | ...tools to... |
| 18:01.51 | Kraps | ...accommodate these new changes. Note that we haven’t announced any dates for the MMO.” |
| 18:02.43 | Lopeppeppy | Exactly. Nothing in there about 2016. |
| 18:02.47 | Torhal | Begs the question: Why the fuck is there a BlizzCon this year? |
| 18:02.58 | Gwythian | Next expac imo. |
| 18:03.02 | Kraps | so its for sure a space shooter mmo? |
| 18:03.30 | Lopeppeppy | BlizzCon staff organizers aren't the same as programmers, for sure. They can organize a zillion cons without disturbing the programming cubes a tick. |
| 18:03.49 | Kraps | the market is already flooded with mmo shooters imo |
| 18:05.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (~Funkeh`@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 18:05.15 | Arrowmaster | its flooded with mmos |
| 18:05.20 | Gwythian | What's weird is they're moving people off Titan and back on to WoW. That's weird. |
| 18:07.29 | Maldivia | why is that weird? When doing something like this, it's great to have a small core group |
| 18:08.57 | Gwythian | Weird was the wrong word. I think it's curious. |
| 18:09.46 | Maldivia | currently, where I work, I'm part of a 4-man team trying to redo our core engine... no need to have the entire engineering team involved with that, since with a small team you can much easier make rapid changed and coordinate etc |
| 18:10.43 | Gwythian | A small group makes sense. Moving the other resources to WoW will help them push content out faster. The curious part to me is how much was done, why was it trashed (props to them for doing it), and do they really think they can redo it in 3 years? |
| 18:10.55 | Unkle | Yeah, when you're re-architecting you sort of want to limit the number of brains to the best/brightest/most focused. |
| 18:11.15 | Gwythian | That's all I meant by curious. Just brings up a lot of questions. Not critically, just thought provoking. |
| 18:11.40 | Kraps | is hearthstone a good game |
| 18:12.35 | Gwythian | I'm curious if they're re-architecting the whole game, the whole idea, the POV, the combat system, or everything ground up. Just really makes me want to be a fly on the wall. :) |
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| 18:13.26 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v bluspacecow] by ChanServ |
| 18:13.39 | bluspacecow | http://threepanelsoul.com/2013/04/15/on-infinite-loops/ |
| 18:13.41 | bluspacecow | lol |
| 18:14.12 | Unkle | I'm really ready for games to move beyond holy-trinity or shooter models of combat, and ready for combat not to be the majority of MMO content. I don't know what that would look like, but I'm kind of ready for it to happen. |
| 18:14.39 | bluspacecow | world of cooking craft |
| 18:15.26 | Gwythian | Tradeskills, trading, commerce, corporations, conglomerates, social engineering, tradeskill: hacker |
| 18:15.41 | Kraps | eve? |
| 18:15.47 | Gwythian | I guess. |
| 18:15.59 | Gwythian | But without the thousand ship fights. |
| 18:16.53 | Unkle | eve is about economic conflict. War by economics. |
| 18:17.17 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (~stolenleg@unaffiliated/stolenlegacy) |
| 18:24.43 | Adys | https://www.humblebundle.com/weekly !! |
| 18:24.47 | Adys | holy shit this week's |
| 18:26.36 | *** join/#wowuidev jane (~jane@unaffiliated/jane) |
| 18:31.03 | Arrowmaster | nice |
| 18:40.41 | foxlit | Would something like a [flag:id] conditional, along with some commands to set/clear a flag by id, be a useful thing to have? |
| 18:44.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Semlar (~chatzilla@108-218-49-117.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:44.35 | Semlar | alright, i have to ask, why doesn't oQueue use the addon comm channels |
| 18:44.46 | Semlar | is it just that badly written |
| 18:45.07 | Semlar | or is there some technical limitation |
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| 18:48.17 | *** join/#wowuidev tharper (~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 18:50.56 | End | based on a quick glance, probably because you can only talk to your group, your guild, or explicit players |
| 18:52.33 | End | so finding other people to talk to with the addon on your realm isn't going to work very well otherwise |
| 18:56.25 | Torhal | Yah - no multicast AddOn channel. |
| 19:01.29 | Semlar | what i mean is, it whispers you |
| 19:01.31 | Semlar | directly |
| 19:02.25 | foxlit | isn't it realid chat, anyway? |
| 19:02.31 | Semlar | yep |
| 19:02.47 | Torhal | There is no AddOn channel for that. |
| 19:02.54 | Semlar | there isn't? |
| 19:03.30 | Semlar | how come |
| 19:03.35 | Torhal | BATTLEGROUND, GUILD, OFFICER, PARTY, RAID, and WHISPER. |
| 19:03.54 | Torhal | Whisper being realm-only. |
| 19:04.01 | Torhal | s/realm/same-realm/ |
| 19:05.07 | Semlar | i guess they probably don't expect addons to communicate cross server |
| 19:05.11 | Torhal | Though in a BG WHISPER works for cross-realm folks using Name-Realm. It doesn't work in cross-realm parties or raids for whatever reason. |
| 19:08.09 | Primer | and when oQueue fucks up, expect to be massively spammed |
| 19:17.40 | astoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:18.04 | foxlit | sacrifice a goat on a thursday. |
| 19:18.14 | astoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:18.48 | astoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:20.21 | foxlit | are we talking about wow friends, or battle.net friends? |
| 19:21.26 | Torhal | BNet sound is annoying. |
| 19:21.48 | Torhal | Only thing I can think of is to replace the sound with a different one. No idea what the filename is though. |
| 19:23.58 | astoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:24.15 | astoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:24.47 | Grivvel | astoo: Look in the code. I'm pretty sure it's in BNet.lua (probably the call to PlaySoundKitID(18019)) |
| 19:25.10 | astoo | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:32.29 | Shirik | soooo |
| 19:33.05 | Shirik | In the never-ending saga that is my IT department, yesterday we determined that they're intentionally performing MITM attacks to "decrypt our SSL traffic" for monitoring. |
| 19:33.25 | Shirik | What they do is they send a cert to the computer signed by our internal CA, for which we have the root CA cert installed on our computer already |
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| 19:33.35 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 19:33.41 | Shirik | Today, I determined something wonderful. The system is perfectly willing to sign an invalid certificate, so that my computer thinks it's valid, even when it wasn't |
| 19:33.47 | Shirik | Which effectively exposes us to every MITM attack |
| 19:33.58 | haste | yay |
| 19:34.01 | Semlar | attacks Shirik |
| 19:34.05 | Shirik | So we tell the IT guys |
| 19:34.13 | Lopeppeppy | And they giggle! |
| 19:34.22 | Shirik | "Can you be more specific about what you are trying to explain?" |
| 19:34.27 | Shirik | I think they don't actually know how this works |
| 19:35.23 | Lopeppeppy | Murders. I like murders. |
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| 19:38.13 | Primer | What is "the system"? |
| 19:38.25 | Shirik | so they want to decrypt our SSL traffic for inspection |
| 19:38.39 | Primer | I scrolled back |
| 19:38.54 | Shirik | so what it does is it intercepts SSL and performs a MITM attack by giving us a "company signed cert" and providing the remote server with an intermediary key |
| 19:39.55 | Primer | Can't you do something like that, but legitimately, with squid? |
| 19:40.10 | Primer | Without futzing with CAs |
| 19:40.16 | Shirik | it's impossible to do without resigning the cert |
| 19:40.29 | Shirik | you wouldn't have the private key as an intermediary |
| 19:41.03 | Primer | you don't need a private key with a proxy |
| 19:41.13 | Shirik | what? |
| 19:41.14 | Primer | well |
| 19:41.14 | foxlit | it seems like what you call "resigning" might be more accurately referred to as "replacing" |
| 19:41.26 | Shirik | ok fair enough |
| 19:41.36 | Shirik | it's replacing it, I keep calling it resigning because the cert looks almost identical |
| 19:41.49 | Shirik | except that it's signed by someone else (but it's true it's a completely different cert) |
| 19:41.57 | Primer | yeah, nm...not thinking clearly |
| 19:43.01 | Shirik | in other news, today I learned my web server's clock is off by like 20 minutes somehow |
| 19:49.26 | Torhal | Shirik: Stop time-traveling and that drift will likely go away. |
| 19:52.18 | Arrowmaster | or be sane and install ntp like everybody should |
| 19:53.03 | Arrowmaster | Shirik: what did you do to make an invalid cert that it accepted? |
| 19:56.33 | Primer | probably imported the CA |
| 19:57.03 | Primer | and deployed it throughout the company |
| 19:57.13 | Primer | would be my guess |
| 19:57.33 | Arrowmaster | yeah i know that much, i was wondering how his cert was invalid |
| 19:59.12 | Primer | it's not a "recognized" CA |
| 19:59.24 | Primer | I'm guessing that's what he meant |
| 19:59.49 | Arrowmaster | no he tried to MITM something as a test, i want to know what he used for that test |
| 20:00.06 | Arrowmaster | i dont mean the cert hes being delivered |
| 20:00.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Motig (Motig@31-151-161-87.dynamic.upc.nl) |
| 20:01.00 | Primer | From what I gathered, his IT dept setup the MITM, presumably with a transparent proxy. The connection goes from his browser, which has their CA installed, to the proxy, and the proxy feeds him a cert signed by that CA that matches the domain |
| 20:01.23 | Primer | The proxy then makes the connection out to the real host, and relays, allowing them to see the traffic in the middle |
| 20:02.31 | Arrowmaster | no |
| 20:03.09 | Arrowmaster | he tried to setup an invalid cert to see if the new system could be MITM'd and it could |
| 20:03.55 | Arrowmaster | since he said he couldnt trust what was being sent to him anymore |
| 20:05.58 | Primer | So he setup a remote SSL site with a self-signed cert |
| 20:06.01 | Primer | and hit it |
| 20:06.18 | Arrowmaster | he didnt say what he did |
| 20:06.26 | Primer | and his MITM, which presumably is creating certs on the fly that are signed by that CA, served it up |
| 20:06.33 | Primer | I'm guessing, of course |
| 20:06.35 | Arrowmaster | but the other day he said a self-signed wasnt accepted anymore |
| 20:06.58 | Arrowmaster | yes yes, weve gone over how this system works yesterday and even a few years ago |
| 20:08.02 | Primer | ahh this is all new to me, but it interests me too, hence my speculation :) |
| 20:09.52 | Fisker | Arrowmaster |
| 20:09.57 | Arrowmaster | Fisker |
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| 20:10.07 | Fisker | he probably went to http://ca/certsrv and got a few certs |
| 20:10.08 | Fisker | LOL |
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| 20:43.24 | Neffi_ | x220's been running hot. Thinking about picking up some good thermal paste and repasting all the heatsinks for the hell of it. You guys think a good paste would be much of an upgrade from the stuff they use at the factory? |
| 20:48.07 | Dagmar | Neffi: It's generally an issue of quantity, not quality |
| 20:48.15 | Dagmar | ...as in many manufs (particularly Dell) use WAY too goddamn much of the stuff |
| 20:48.29 | Neffi | Yeah I've noticed |
| 20:49.27 | Dagmar | The two machines I cleaned up in the NOC are the only two left in that department now. All the rest burned up. |
| 20:50.00 | Neffi | I want to take the thing apart and clean it out thoroughly. I'm wondering if it's worth the trip to the bank to deposit cash, order the paste, and wait 'til it comes to clean it out. |
| 20:50.11 | Dagmar | If it's still the manufacturers work, there's probably a better than average chance it's got a nice airgap in it now from the stuff boiling out |
| 20:50.40 | Dagmar | Neffi: Well, you might be able to get a tiny tube of it locally at Best Buy or something if you don't mind paying like $12 for it |
| 20:50.47 | Neffi | Well the machine is fairly new. I got it only a bit over a year ago. |
| 20:51.25 | Neffi | I'm not sure what kind of quality I'm gonna get out of Best Buy paste. But that reminds me that there's a local computer shop that might have some AS5. |
| 20:52.32 | Dagmar | That depends. Sometimes they actually carry arctic silver |
| 20:53.07 | Dagmar | If you wanted to be all psycho about it yo ucould probably use a thin film of JB Weld. :) |
| 20:54.10 | Neffi | I just don't trust putting off-brand paste on my CPU |
| 20:54.31 | Dagmar | Well, if you look and you can see it dribbling out, off-brand paste would be better |
| 20:56.42 | Neffi | I'll see what it looks like when I take it apart. What's more concerning is how shitty the fans are in this thing. |
| 20:57.01 | Neffi | It can't keep the temps in check when watching non-HD Netflix. |
| 20:57.12 | Dagmar | Umm... I wouldn't take the heat sink off until you're ready to replace the grease |
| 20:57.40 | Dagmar | If the stuff has hardened, you'll be looking at a one-way operation where your only option will be to scrape it off, clean everything with rubbing alcohol, and just go without for awhile. |
| 20:57.50 | Neffi | Well obviously |
| 20:57.57 | Dagmar | Okay, just makin' sure |
| 20:58.28 | Neffi | If it looks visibly bad with the heatsink on, I'll definitely replace it -- is what I meant |
| 20:59.08 | Dagmar | HOpefully you won't be posting to Reddit later... "So *this* explains why I'm hitting 80C playing CoD" |
| 20:59.26 | Neffi | lol |
| 20:59.27 | Dagmar | Guy had a cavitation in the paste the size of two thumbprints. |
| 20:59.36 | Neffi | That's not good |
| 20:59.42 | Dagmar | It's fuckin' horrifying. |
| 21:00.12 | Neffi | I'm suspecting something similar. It'll throttle in under 2 minutes when I open a game, and after 15-20 minutes watching Netflix, with HD off |
| 21:00.35 | Neffi | It should definitely be able to keep itself cooler |
| 21:00.52 | Unkle | makes me glad I did the job myself on the current box. |
| 21:01.18 | Neffi | Makes me regret paying $1100 for a laptop and not just building a desktop and getting a tablet for school |
| 21:01.52 | Unkle | I keep thinking I should just get a bluetooth keyboard for my tablet. |
| 21:02.41 | Dagmar | I'm considering getting an even smaller one |
| 21:02.52 | Neffi | Aye. I would mind something like a surface with the keyboard cover for school and mobile use. As long as I can get it to run something other than Win8. |
| 21:03.26 | TC-work | I refuse to get anything anymore that does not come with a full OS/ |
| 21:03.26 | Dagmar | Amazon has some really spiffy ones that are like 3"x6", which is a bit more portable than this slightly deranged motorola keyboard I have is |
| 21:03.28 | TC-work | .* |
| 21:03.40 | Unkle | I have an iPad Mini - which is nice enough for what I use it for (books, movies on netflix, skype, etc) but when it comes time to type anything, I miss having a physical keyboard. |
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| 21:16.30 | Arrowmaster | i need to RMA my n7 |
| 21:16.45 | Arrowmaster | but i dont want to go without it |
| 21:20.02 | foxlit | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:20.19 | foxlit | (my /cast [+moving] Roll; Blue Shado-Pan Tiger macro, that is) |
| 21:21.11 | Neffi_ | Ugh. Your website not working on Chrome is unacceptable. Especially if you're a major manufacturer. |
| 21:21.28 | Unkle | foxlit: Nice job. |
| 21:21.31 | Ackis | Cairenn: http://i.imgur.com/7eF5qF3.jpg Canadians vandalising pot holes! |
| 21:22.53 | foxlit | Unkle: unfortunately, making that work reduces the motivation for writing out the rest of the code :( |
| 21:22.58 | Primer | foxlit: I just use gogomount |
| 21:23.37 | Primer | for example, it'll cast the appropriate druid thing depending on the scenario |
| 21:24.02 | Primer | since it's actively maintained, I'd guess it has something for monks too |
| 21:24.10 | Primer | It has ghost wolf for shamans |
| 21:24.18 | foxlit | Primer: but can it cast Roll when you're moving, rather than display a pretty "You can't do that while moving" message? |
| 21:24.50 | Primer | If you can cast roll while moving, I don't see why not |
| 21:25.04 | Primer | I have no monk |
| 21:25.47 | Primer | But I've yet to have gogomount do the wrong thing |
| 21:26.05 | foxlit | You're raining on my self-congratulatory parade here :) |
| 21:26.13 | Primer | sorry |
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| 21:26.39 | Primer | I've done the same thing...spent a bunch of time on a macro, only to have it replaced by an addon |
| 21:27.12 | Primer | I had a very intricate druid mounting/travel form/flight form macro before gogomount |
| 21:27.20 | Unkle | I used to macro mounting if my move speed were zero otherwise falling through to a secure command to change form on my druid. |
| 21:29.40 | *** join/#wowuidev TGiFallen (~TGiFallen@69.17.183.139) |
| 21:30.27 | foxlit | I still have a rather simple druid shapeshifting macro; curse scenarios for breaking [flyable] as they do. |
| 21:31.23 | foxlit | (or, hm, is it not flyable, but rather taking away your ability to mount at all while maintaining that you're outdoors?) |
| 21:32.05 | Cairenn | Ackis: rofl |
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| 21:34.46 | Mr_Rabies | also curse the way the forms are handled where they may be a different stance number depending on spec, foxlit |
| 21:35.06 | foxlit | meh, I can solve that. |
| 21:35.15 | Mr_Rabies | in a macro? :O |
| 21:35.21 | foxlit | in a "macro" :) |
| 21:36.02 | foxlit | (which is to say in an addon allowing you to input your own macros) |
| 21:36.28 | foxlit | along with [spec:] taking a dual-specialization argument rather than a spec type. |
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| 22:36.29 | TC-Work2 | I am so glad my connection crapped out just as I asked a question |
| 22:37.45 | Gnarfoz | if you asked it here, it didn't even make it |
| 22:38.32 | TC-Work2 | Figures |
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| 22:39.23 | TC-Work2 | I'll ask again once I get my proper connection back up |
| 22:39.24 | *** join/#wowuidev TC-work (palewitz@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:2e8b) |
| 22:39.29 | TC-Work2 | if I can |
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| 22:41.31 | Gnarfoz | good luck |
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| 22:43.09 | TC-work | That's better |
| 22:44.00 | TC-work | if I have file a with a bunch of names on each line and file b with a bunch of data in it, how can I see if a in b using python? if/in does not seem to be working, neither does find. |
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| 22:51.53 | VIad | don't mess with the zohan |
| 22:52.29 | Primer | use perl |
| 22:52.34 | Primer | runs |
| 22:52.42 | End | that way leads to madness |
| 22:53.15 | End | TC-work: are you reading a into a list of some sort? |
| 22:53.31 | Primer | at the very least, use PCRE :) |
| 22:53.40 | TC-work | End: not reading, looking for a match |
| 22:53.47 | Primer | I presume python supports those? |
| 22:54.04 | End | python's re module is pretty good, so I don't think people care that much |
| 22:54.10 | TC-work | I don't need to use regex though |
| 22:54.23 | TC-work | at least, I should not. |
| 22:54.48 | End | are you literally trying to do something like a = open() b = open() if a in b? |
| 22:54.49 | Primer | Why wouldn't you? |
| 22:55.23 | TC-work | End: No, I am properly iterating through both, it's the comparison that seems to be failing. |
| 22:55.36 | End | ok that's good :P |
| 22:55.37 | TC-work | Primer: because 'in' should do what I want. |
| 22:55.50 | End | you might want to make sure that you've stripped the newline from a's lines |
| 22:56.00 | TC-work | hmm...point |
| 22:56.04 | Primer | heh |
| 22:57.41 | TC-work | still nope |
| 22:58.22 | Ackis | how the hell do you find overturned caravans in the barrens? |
| 22:58.36 | TC-work | I really should set something up for this, I seem to do it a lot. |
| 23:00.09 | Primer | Are you just trying to find matching lines? |
| 23:00.14 | TC-work | yup |
| 23:00.16 | Primer | That match exactly? |
| 23:00.26 | TC-work | no, that have the stirng |
| 23:00.36 | TC-work | so if b has the string a, print a |
| 23:00.37 | Primer | What type of answer do you expect? |
| 23:00.53 | Primer | Why not just use sort and diff? |
| 23:01.14 | Primer | cat a | sort -un |
| 23:02.21 | TC-work | because the files are not the same, one is a list of names, the other is a massive amount of data in it |
| 23:02.35 | TC-work | that happens to have names from the first one |
| 23:02.53 | TC-work | sorry, not matching lines, just the string somewhere in it. |
| 23:03.34 | Primer | for i in `cat a`; do grep -q $i b && echo Found $i; done |
| 23:05.10 | TC-work | ah, bash |
| 23:05.35 | Primer | for i in `cat a`; do grep -q -m 1 $i b && echo Found $i; done |
| 23:05.43 | Primer | would limit it to the first hit, and stop the grep |
| 23:05.47 | TC-work | no, I mean I had to do that in bash |
| 23:05.52 | Primer | considering file b is large |
| 23:05.55 | Primer | yes, that's bash |
| 23:06.03 | Primer | I thought that was obvious... |
| 23:06.45 | TC-work | I'm in tcsh |
| 23:06.54 | TC-work | but I got it |
| 23:06.54 | Primer | type this: |
| 23:06.55 | Primer | bash |
| 23:06.56 | TC-work | and it works |
| 23:06.59 | TC-work | thanks |
| 23:07.01 | Primer | np |
| 23:07.16 | TC-work | Still need to do that in python though so i can just plug values in |
| 23:07.23 | TC-work | files rather |
| 23:07.35 | TC-work | and I would rather not do os calls |
| 23:07.38 | Ackis | any way to clean up this macro: http://www.wowace.com/paste/7849/ |
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| 23:08.22 | Primer | WTF does /tm do? |
| 23:09.25 | Primer | for i in `cat $1`; do grep -q -m 1 $i $2 && echo Found $i; done <-- put that in foo.sh, then go: bash foo.sh file1 file2 |
| 23:09.31 | Neffi | summons Tim Minchin to recite poems and songs for your enjoyment as you kill the enemy |
| 23:09.39 | Gnarfoz | target marker? |
| 23:09.47 | Gnarfoz | didn't know there was a macro shortcut for that |
| 23:10.04 | Gnarfoz | Aliases for targetmarker are tm. Aliases for worldmarker are wm. |
| 23:10.05 | Ackis | yeah I just found out about /tm today |
| 23:10.06 | Gnarfoz | yeah |
| 23:10.09 | Primer | About the only speedup you'll get is not having to seek through file b multiple times, but your OS should have cached it after the first run anyhow |
| 23:10.14 | Gnarfoz | http://www.wowpedia.org/Target_Marker#Usage |
| 23:10.21 | TC-work | Primer: how do I invert it? -v does not seem to want to work |
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| 23:10.31 | Neffi | Ackis: I would place a /cleartarget above all that. If you have something targeted before running it, it will sound the alarm unexpectedly. |
| 23:10.31 | Primer | That's pretty handy. Never knew about /tm |
| 23:10.42 | Primer | TC-work: meaning, it was not found? |
| 23:10.46 | TC-work | Primer: yes |
| 23:11.09 | Primer | for i in `cat a`; do grep -q -m 1 $i b || echo Found $i; done |
| 23:11.10 | Primer | er |
| 23:11.17 | Primer | for i in `cat a`; do grep -q -m 1 $i b || echo Didn't find $i; done |
| 23:11.30 | TC-work | awesome, thanks |
| 23:11.36 | Primer | well |
| 23:11.41 | Primer | you may want to work it some more |
| 23:12.44 | Primer | for i in `cat $1`; do grep -q -m 1 $i $b; if [ $? == 0 ] then; echo Found $i in $b; else Didn't find $i in $b; fi; done |
| 23:12.49 | Primer | or something |
| 23:12.59 | TC-work | err...it seems to work the first way you had it |
| 23:13.17 | Primer | I guess it all depends on what you want |
| 23:14.27 | TC-work | I'm comparing home dirs against an oracle output, any users that are not in oracle are going to get wiped. |
| 23:14.34 | TC-work | it worked fine |
| 23:15.15 | Primer | I've found that doing things this way is usually simplest. Recently I had to parse a bunch of apache logs looking for something very specific and in the end it was a lot of bzcat (logs are bzipped daily) piping to grep then sort and awk |
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| 23:43.27 | Adys | <sigh> |
| 23:43.35 | Adys | i really like codebasehq's ticket tracker |
| 23:43.38 | Adys | but it's not open source :( |
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