| 00:00.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 00:03.29 | *** join/#wowuidev theorb (n=theorb@91.84.53.6) |
| 00:07.01 | Thunder_Child | i love the fact that resturants are being required to serve nutritional facts along with the food |
| 00:07.13 | Thunder_Child | restaurants* |
| 00:07.45 | Wobin | -restaurants- are? |
| 00:08.44 | Wobin | Most restaurants where I find it difficult to figure out what goes into the dish, aren't ones I go to often |
| 00:09.01 | Lopeppeppy | Yes, chain restaurants with X number of restaurants are being required now to provide more nurtition information |
| 00:09.03 | Thunder_Child | are what> |
| 00:09.04 | Thunder_Child | ?* |
| 00:09.28 | Thunder_Child | Wobin, just because you know what it's cooked with doesnt mean you know whats in it |
| 00:09.56 | Thunder_Child | personally i was refering to cheescake factory. fantastic food, but even the salads are unhealthy. |
| 00:09.58 | Wobin | True, but you should be able to guess |
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| 00:10.09 | Wobin | or at least have a good idea of what's in it |
| 00:10.12 | Lopeppeppy | Salads are often the worst offenders, TC |
| 00:10.28 | Thunder_Child | the worst one is 2500 calories |
| 00:10.37 | Wobin | salads are only 'unhealthy' if you include in the dressing |
| 00:10.46 | Lopeppeppy | What if you've got celiac, and need to know if an item is gluten free? The nutrition info disclousure is heaven for people with food allergies or intolerances |
| 00:10.47 | Wobin | (unless you lot have weird salads) |
| 00:11.03 | Lopeppeppy | Wobin, not true... some are evil with cheese and nuts and marinated meats and so forth. |
| 00:11.13 | Wobin | Lopeppeppy, yes... weird salads =P |
| 00:11.23 | Wobin | Lopeppeppy, If I've an allergy, I'm -asking- the chef what's in it |
| 00:11.30 | Lopeppeppy | Sesame chicken salad with mandarin oranges = something like 1500 calories |
| 00:11.38 | Thunder_Child | thats not weird! |
| 00:11.39 | Lopeppeppy | Wobin, sometimes they don't *know*. |
| 00:11.43 | Wobin | Lopeppeppy, I wouldn't consider that a -salad- |
| 00:11.58 | Lopeppeppy | Crap comes out of boxes, the chef just cooks it. The chain is required to provide in depth material, it's excellent now. |
| 00:12.01 | Wobin | Lopeppeppy, aye, a restaurant where I'd not often eat then =) |
| 00:12.22 | Lopeppeppy | My girlfriend has celiac. We always ask the waitstaff, the managers, the cooks... they have no idea. They just cook crap and serve it. |
| 00:12.25 | Wobin | Then again, I don't consider 'fast food' per se to be 'restaurant' food |
| 00:12.42 | Wobin | or most chain locations |
| 00:12.55 | Wobin | it's a terminology thing that surprised me I guess |
| 00:13.10 | Lopeppeppy | Even non-chains don't always know what's in the "spiced potatoes" they serve. |
| 00:13.26 | Wobin | Perhaps I go to higher class restaurants =) |
| 00:14.06 | Lopeppeppy | Maybe, but most restaurants order pre-processed ingredients, and once you're not cutting the potatoes yourself, you can't swear to what's in them. |
| 00:14.31 | Lopeppeppy | Should I watch a vile scary movie and scare myself witless, after having been up half the night last night with nightmares? |
| 00:14.46 | Lopeppeppy | Or go for Disney drivel in hopes of a solid night's sleep? |
| 00:14.49 | Wobin | ...Is this a trick question? |
| 00:15.01 | Lopeppeppy | See... it's october, and I'm not sure that watching Fringe and Bones counts as my daily horror quotient. |
| 00:17.06 | Wobin | Lopeppeppy, Has your gf heard of Teff? |
| 00:17.32 | Lopeppeppy | She hasn't mentioned it, so what is Teff? |
| 00:18.14 | Lopeppeppy | Ah. I know she's tried quinoa and millet and not liked them, she's doing a lot with... buckwheat is it? |
| 00:18.15 | Wobin | http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2009/09/teff-ethiopian-gluten-free-grains-flour-porridge-recipe.html |
| 00:18.27 | Lopeppeppy | I'm just responsible for finding her gluten-free jellybeans and beer. :) |
| 00:19.50 | Wobin | ugh@blog comments |
| 00:19.53 | Wobin | "It's about time we recognize that wheat is not the only grain. Gluten-free sounds so healthy and delicious!" |
| 00:20.01 | Wobin | >< |
| 00:20.41 | Lopeppeppy | Well, avoiding the processed flours we all use might be more healthy, but overall... gluten free isn't where it's at. |
| 00:21.22 | Lopeppeppy | If you want perfectly healthy, eat rabbit, and then you'll die because your diet isn't balanced enough. Moderation! :) |
| 00:22.34 | Lopeppeppy | I think I shall watch Harry Potter, slightly creepy but not enough to give nightmares. I only have 2 horror movies in the house, the rest were on vcr, which I ditched when I moved. |
| 00:22.44 | Adys | grrrrrrrr |
| 00:22.52 | Lopeppeppy | rawrrrrrrrr |
| 00:23.04 | Adys | people calling acid2/acid3 failures "standards compliance issues" |
| 00:23.08 | Adys | fucks sake its just a bug |
| 00:23.10 | Wobin | Well more to the point where "X Free" designates "Healthy" |
| 00:23.19 | Wobin | and ignoring the -reason- behind being "X free" |
| 00:23.39 | Lopeppeppy | many "fat free" foods are worse for you, due to preservatives and higher sugar contents, etc. |
| 00:23.41 | Wobin | They're not avoiding gluten cause it's -bad for you- |
| 00:23.48 | *** join/#wowuidev norgs (n=ken@ash.norganna.org) |
| 00:24.02 | Wobin | it's just specifically "bad" for them |
| 00:24.16 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v norgs] by ChanServ |
| 00:24.26 | Wobin | due to allergy/digestion issues |
| 00:24.50 | Wobin | so stating that something "gluten-free" is "healthier" overall is incorrect |
| 00:25.23 | Lopeppeppy | Some people do think that's the best health diet ever. People are always willing to tack onto a "fad diet" |
| 00:25.34 | Wobin | ugh =( |
| 00:25.37 | NeoTron | I know a few people that always go for that |
| 00:25.54 | Lopeppeppy | always a few nutters |
| 00:25.55 | NeoTron | also one person I know won't let their kids drink, say, coke |
| 00:25.59 | NeoTron | because it has caffiene |
| 00:26.14 | NeoTron | but they can drink hot chocolate, eat chocolate, drink tea |
| 00:26.22 | NeoTron | but that's ok because that's "natural caffeine" |
| 00:26.30 | Lopeppeppy | Well... it also has tons of sugar and no other redeeming value... tea at least has tannins. |
| 00:26.41 | Wobin | hehe, yeah, I'd be more concerned about the sugar =) |
| 00:26.48 | Wobin | (also that it's used to clean engines) |
| 00:26.51 | NeoTron | well they can't dink diet pop either because of the "chemicals" |
| 00:26.57 | NeoTron | because normal pop is so much better... |
| 00:27.02 | Wobin | well 'diet' pop is terrible anyway =) |
| 00:27.06 | Cairenn | aspartame == evil |
| 00:27.09 | Wobin | this ^ |
| 00:27.19 | Wobin | although, for me, it's more I can't stand the taste |
| 00:27.24 | Lopeppeppy | huggles Cairenn |
| 00:27.24 | NeoTron | there's really no proof of that |
| 00:27.35 | Cairenn | NeoTron: no proof of what? |
| 00:27.38 | Lopeppeppy | There is for people with allergies, NeoTron |
| 00:27.42 | NeoTron | in either case, if you want your kids to be healthy don't let them drink pop period |
| 00:27.59 | NeoTron | Cairenn: that aspartame is "evil" |
| 00:28.06 | Lopeppeppy | It is, for Cairenn. |
| 00:28.14 | Lopeppeppy | The same way gluten is for my girlfriend |
| 00:28.17 | NeoTron | that's sort of unrelated though |
| 00:28.26 | Wobin | well |
| 00:28.29 | NeoTron | you can't say peanuts are evil because some people can die from eating them |
| 00:28.30 | Cairenn | NeoTron: yes there is, the fact that my throat tries to swell shut every time I accidentally ingest it |
| 00:28.30 | Lopeppeppy | Her statement was true for her, so it's perfectly related |
| 00:28.32 | NeoTron | doesn't make peanuts bad |
| 00:28.33 | Wobin | all Cairenn said was that aspartame was evil =) |
| 00:28.45 | Wobin | and for her, it is! |
| 00:28.49 | NeoTron | not disputing that |
| 00:28.51 | Cairenn | exactly |
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| 00:29.19 | NeoTron | even so, every heard of "natural" vs "artificial" caffeine? people believe such weird things |
| 00:29.25 | Wobin | I think it's evil cause it tastes terrible =( |
| 00:29.32 | Lopeppeppy | People believe in aliens and penguins too. |
| 00:29.37 | NeoTron | then again, people also believe evolution and creationism are the same thing |
| 00:29.42 | Wobin | penguins aren't real? |
| 00:29.47 | Wobin | is shattered =( |
| 00:29.58 | Lopeppeppy | Not real. Just a little Linux hoax. |
| 00:30.11 | NeoTron | Wobin: also a fair reason. I actually prefer diet coke over the disgusting US "corn syrup" coke |
| 00:30.19 | Wobin | No Pingu? My childhood, ruined =( |
| 00:30.26 | NeoTron | Swedish suger beet/cane sugar coke is heck of a lot better |
| 00:30.30 | Wobin | NeoTron, oh god, don't get me started on corn syrup |
| 00:30.39 | Wobin | I'm -so- glad I don't live in the US |
| 00:30.41 | NeoTron | anything corn syrup is evil |
| 00:30.42 | Lopeppeppy | Don't get any of us started. :) |
| 00:31.11 | Wobin | It's almost a headache inducing sweetness for me =\ |
| 00:31.47 | NeoTron | you can actually get cane sugar coke here in some places |
| 00:31.53 | NeoTron | it's so infinitely better |
| 00:33.00 | Lopeppeppy | And cane sugar Mt. Dew, Pepsi and Dr. Pepper, if you know where to look |
| 00:33.00 | Wobin | agrees |
| 00:33.09 | Wobin | PS, woah: -Explosive Trap now burns all enemies for [ Ranged AP + 900 ] additional Fire damage over 20 sec. (Up from 900) |
| 00:33.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 00:33.50 | Wobin | that's a ridiculous amount of extra damage -per target- |
| 00:34.03 | Lopeppeppy | sweet |
| 00:34.21 | NeoTron | in other news... "Explosive Trap is no longer Explosive Crap" |
| 00:34.24 | Wobin | also, nice: -Misdirection redesigned The current party or raid member targeted will received the threat caused by your next damaging attack and all actions taken for 4 sec afterwards. |
| 00:34.32 | Wobin | Explosive shot will finally count |
| 00:34.36 | NeoTron | the book I'm reading atm (Manifold: Time) has a coke called "Shit Cola" |
| 00:35.34 | NightHawkTheSane | ugh. "ZOMG You have to FIXORZ the mail server, its DOWNNNNN!" So I go to check, with no lag, i successfully sent and recieved a message from said mail server. And I dont even know what he expected me to do about it, he hasn't given me ssh access to the mail server. >< |
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| 00:37.57 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 00:40.25 | Wobin | My god, Joe the Plumber is -still- trying to do stuff? |
| 00:40.36 | Wobin | (...stand up comedy?) |
| 00:40.56 | Wobin | oh wait, parody |
| 00:41.13 | NightHawkTheSane | well, he wasn't very good at whatever it was he did before, so may as well try and stretch that 15 minutes of fame into five long years of "OH GOD, JUST GO AWAY" |
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| 00:51.16 | t0xic4venger | anyone know off the top of their head if there is a method to return the players target as a string containing the targets name? |
| 00:52.59 | ScytheBlade1 | UnitName("target") |
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| 00:53.05 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 00:53.17 | NightHawkTheSane | gasps at ScytheBlade1's evil voodoo magic witchery! |
| 00:53.44 | NightHawkTheSane | he's a witch, divining the secrets of the holy blizzardian code! burn him! |
| 00:53.46 | Lopeppeppy | he's pretty sneaky that way. |
| 00:54.00 | ScytheBlade1 | cackles |
| 00:54.11 | NightHawkTheSane | is very, very bored... |
| 00:54.25 | Thunder_Child | NightHawkTheSane, any particular reason? |
| 00:54.48 | NightHawkTheSane | mostly because I just finished work for the day, and haven't really decided what I feel like doing for the rest of the evening. |
| 00:55.24 | Thunder_Child | you are bored thinking about wha5t you are going to do? |
| 00:55.27 | t0xic4venger | thanks =) |
| 00:55.35 | Thunder_Child | s/5// |
| 00:55.54 | NightHawkTheSane | well, to be fair, i'm not actually doing a whole lot of the 'thinking' |
| 00:57.14 | Thunder_Child | so you are bored doing nothing.....go figure.... |
| 00:57.26 | NightHawkTheSane | yeah, crazy, innit? |
| 01:01.12 | kd3 | yay! |
| 01:01.13 | Lopeppeppy | Bake some cookies. |
| 01:01.14 | kd3 | the ptr works |
| 01:01.19 | Lopeppeppy | \o/ |
| 01:01.37 | kd3 | <3 blizz switching to a new msvcrt runtime |
| 01:01.53 | kd3 | s/ runtime// |
| 01:02.08 | ScytheBlade1 | hm? |
| 01:02.15 | Cairenn | is watching the premiere of the new SG Universe series |
| 01:02.20 | kd3 | the ptr's linking against msvcrt8 |
| 01:02.32 | kd3 | which wine doesn't have native |
| 01:02.36 | kd3 | gogo winetricks |
| 01:02.40 | ScytheBlade1 | ah, sarcasm |
| 01:02.46 | ScytheBlade1 | I missed it! |
| 01:04.23 | Lopeppeppy | envies Cairenn! |
| 01:04.26 | NightHawkTheSane | Cairenn: :o dont say anything about it! |
| 01:04.36 | Adys | kd3: $ winetricks msvcrt8? |
| 01:04.39 | Cairenn | not going to :) |
| 01:04.48 | kd3 | vcrun2005 |
| 01:04.52 | Adys | ah |
| 01:05.05 | Adys | arent they supposed to ship the dll anyway |
| 01:05.14 | Lopeppeppy | I'm sorry, kd3. I was hoping it was more excellent for you. |
| 01:05.16 | NightHawkTheSane | with luck, there'll be a torrent of it in ~2ish hours |
| 01:05.47 | ScytheBlade1 | in 720p! |
| 01:06.56 | NightHawkTheSane | I need to get a real nas raid with a real media box set up. my appletv not being able to play mkv files is kind of annoying |
| 01:07.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110| (i=Matrix11@ip-95-222-224-247.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 01:14.48 | t0xic4venger | thanks everyone who answered my questions, my first addon is done =) |
| 01:16.26 | Lopeppeppy | congrats |
| 01:17.18 | t0xic4venger | its kind of fun learning a new language, and I am liking LUA |
| 01:17.44 | ScytheBlade1 | *lua |
| 01:17.46 | ScytheBlade1 | not LUA |
| 01:17.49 | ScytheBlade1 | twitches |
| 01:18.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 01:18.03 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 01:18.04 | t0xic4venger | -_- haha |
| 01:18.04 | NightHawkTheSane | where's the krka bot :( |
| 01:18.14 | ScytheBlade1 | present |
| 01:18.18 | NightHawkTheSane | :o |
| 01:18.25 | ScytheBlade1 | probably just on the cooldown period |
| 01:18.26 | NightHawkTheSane | ScytheBlade1 is the krka bot?! |
| 01:18.27 | *** part/#wowuidev norgs (n=ken@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/Norgs) |
| 01:18.32 | ScytheBlade1 | ... no |
| 01:18.34 | NightHawkTheSane | oh. |
| 01:18.38 | NightHawkTheSane | :( |
| 01:18.54 | ScytheBlade1 | know what you should do, NightHawkTheSane? |
| 01:18.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Blast some zombies |
| 01:19.06 | Lopeppeppy | or bake cookies |
| 01:19.08 | Lopeppeppy | baking cookies is nice |
| 01:19.15 | ScytheBlade1 | ... or bake cookies |
| 01:19.21 | NightHawkTheSane | i'm not sure i own a game where i could blast zombies |
| 01:19.31 | ScytheBlade1 | That is much too bad |
| 01:19.45 | Seerah | I'm baking muffins : |
| 01:19.48 | Seerah | * :) |
| 01:19.53 | NightHawkTheSane | ooh. muffins |
| 01:19.57 | ScytheBlade1 | Muffins are also awesome |
| 01:20.06 | ScytheBlade1 | what kind? |
| 01:20.07 | NightHawkTheSane | what kind of muffins? |
| 01:20.22 | Seerah | Triple Berry (from a mix, though, not scratch tonight) |
| 01:20.32 | NightHawkTheSane | aww. still sounds good, though |
| 01:21.30 | t0xic4venger | I agree, muffins are awesome. |
| 01:21.52 | NightHawkTheSane | hm. i could probably make a pie. |
| 01:22.02 | NightHawkTheSane | has a few pounds of asian pears sitting in the fridge |
| 01:23.20 | Seerah | mmm... pears |
| 01:23.31 | Lopeppeppy | pearsauce |
| 01:24.09 | NightHawkTheSane | i have pear sauce sitting in my fridge, actually. my mom made some when she was here this past weekend. |
| 01:24.43 | mikma | ohman |
| 01:24.56 | mikma | scytheblade1: crash course on expert... craaaaap |
| 01:24.56 | Lopeppeppy | It's excellent stuff. |
| 01:25.04 | ScytheBlade1 | mikma: lol |
| 01:25.16 | mikma | scytheblade1: i might say we didnt survive the last waves |
| 01:25.36 | ScytheBlade1 | I have yet to play it |
| 01:25.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Waiting on a few others to have a good time to do so |
| 01:26.08 | mikma | the map is freaking excellent, but dont go on expert lol |
| 01:26.45 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 01:27.07 | mikma | i have yet to see the other map. i heard theres two new |
| 01:27.58 | mikma | tanks are.. killers |
| 01:35.36 | t0xic4venger | does anyone know if accesing a saved variable with an event that is triggered multiple times in quick sucession can cause a data race? |
| 01:36.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Freek (i=Freek@phobos.znchosting.com) |
| 01:36.13 | t0xic4venger | since i get the feeling that each function call to handle that event gets a thread? |
| 01:36.18 | NightHawkTheSane | wow's lua sandbox is not a multithreaded environment |
| 01:36.24 | t0xic4venger | ah, ok |
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| 02:15.15 | Thunder_Child | no one is going to be able to replace mckay in SG as the scientist, i doubt that new guy comes close |
| 02:23.58 | Dagmar | That's becauseas McKay would tell you, he's the Earth's greatest mind. |
| 02:25.33 | Thunder_Child | would you disagree? |
| 02:25.51 | Dagmar | Nah |
| 02:25.58 | Dagmar | He's way too long-winded to argue wiht |
| 02:26.12 | Dagmar | In private, I'd say it's his sister. |
| 02:26.44 | Thunder_Child | i dunno. she is certianly hotter, but i dunno about greater. |
| 02:28.10 | NightHawkTheSane | certainly no less than, though |
| 02:28.15 | NightHawkTheSane | not* |
| 02:28.26 | NightHawkTheSane | shrugs... one of those.. |
| 02:28.27 | Thunder_Child | we only see her work...what..3 times? |
| 02:29.15 | Thunder_Child | nanites, the space bridge, and ...hmm..cant think of any others |
| 02:29.43 | Lopeppeppy | If you're giving stuff away, stop it. I intend to watch it over the weekend. |
| 02:29.53 | Thunder_Child | Lopeppeppy, this is atlantis |
| 02:29.57 | Thunder_Child | we are talking about |
| 02:31.34 | Dagmar | EVerytime she's working with her brother tho she trounces him |
| 02:32.21 | Thunder_Child | mostly it's pompus ass deflation |
| 02:32.25 | Lopeppeppy | Ah, wasnt' sure. Carry on then! :) |
| 02:33.41 | Thunder_Child | yes ma'am |
| 02:36.42 | Lopeppeppy | :P |
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| 02:44.01 | Gnarfoz | sg:u is what, the next movie spinoff? |
| 02:44.11 | NightHawkTheSane | new series spinnoff, but yeah |
| 02:44.13 | Gnarfoz | I kind of lost track after the first two |
| 02:44.27 | Gnarfoz | uh what a new series oO damn did I not pay attention |
| 02:47.02 | NightHawkTheSane | tonight's the premier, so its not as if you missed much |
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| 02:54.33 | bleeter | fuck me, GM's STILL don't believe I can reset my dailies by logging back to char selection... /sigh |
| 02:55.00 | bleeter | even after I do all the Oracles dailies, relog, and do one again and submit a ticket to have it rolled back... ffs |
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| 02:59.14 | Arrowmaster | hmm is it a 2 hour premier? |
| 02:59.23 | Arrowmaster | dollhouse started at the same time and im already downloading it |
| 02:59.34 | NightHawkTheSane | might be |
| 03:01.09 | Cairenn | Arrowmaster: it was |
| 03:01.11 | Cairenn | just ended |
| 03:01.33 | Arrowmaster | the previews looked corny as hell but ill still watch it |
| 03:01.45 | Cairenn | I'm reserving judgement |
| 03:01.59 | Arrowmaster | 'were going to beam you up to our space ship' *beamup* |
| 03:02.16 | Cairenn | going to give it more of a test run than the single premiere episode |
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| 03:06.10 | Lopeppeppy | where did you find it, Arrowmaster? |
| 03:06.17 | Arrowmaster | dollhouse? |
| 03:06.38 | Lopeppeppy | Ah, I thought you were saying you'd found SG Universe already. |
| 03:07.49 | Arrowmaster | it should be up soon |
| 03:08.12 | Arrowmaster | dollhouse was up at 10:24 |
| 03:08.33 | Arrowmaster | well at my source, probably up even sooner than that |
| 03:08.59 | Lopeppeppy | I'll look for it tomorrow after the vet. Tucking into bed now, y'all take care! |
| 03:09.51 | kd3 | huh, neat. |
| 03:10.00 | kd3 | aion apparently uses an unmodified xdelta to handle patching |
| 03:10.47 | kd3 | ponders writing a shell script that will work to patch aion since he doesn't want to install windows in a virtualbox |
| 03:11.05 | Arrowmaster | does it run in wine? |
| 03:11.15 | Arrowmaster | i heard the korean version didnt work at all in wine |
| 03:11.53 | kd3 | aion? after jumping through a few hoops. the appdb page is full of inconsistant info. it installs no prob. just trying to patch it to get past gameguard |
| 03:12.39 | Arrowmaster | yeah i heard the us version wasnt going to use gameguard but thats apparently what caused all the wine issues with the korean version |
| 03:13.10 | kd3 | yar. gameguard is all kinds of not supported in wine right now |
| 03:13.42 | Arrowmaster | so i cant get any sound in source games using wine |
| 03:13.50 | ZorbaBeta | kd3, aren't you glad that aion is protected against piracy? |
| 03:13.56 | ZorbaBeta | the drm is working for *you* |
| 03:13.59 | ZorbaBeta | *protecting you* |
| 03:14.03 | ZorbaBeta | from *piracy*. |
| 03:14.18 | NightHawkTheSane | yarrr... |
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| 03:18.32 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 03:19.12 | Shirik | rawr |
| 03:19.17 | Gryphon | ono i esceared of teh rawr! i need a huggle. |
| 03:19.27 | Shirik | tackles Gryphon |
| 03:19.28 | Cairenn | hugs the Shirik |
| 03:19.31 | Gryphon | tackles Shirik |
| 03:19.51 | Shirik | I overcooked my chicken and undercooked my rice |
| 03:19.51 | Shirik | it evens out, right? |
| 03:21.08 | tem | Shirik, undercooked rice is mushier |
| 03:21.16 | tem | and yummy |
| 03:21.22 | Shirik | mushier? |
| 03:22.39 | *** join/#wowuidev batrick (n=batrick@batbytes.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:22.55 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: far, far better than the reverse |
| 03:23.22 | Shirik | why does everyone say undercooked chicken is bad? |
| 03:23.34 | NightHawkTheSane | I think it's the whole risk of disease thing. |
| 03:23.44 | Shirik | is it that bad? |
| 03:24.01 | NightHawkTheSane | you've never had food poisoning, eh? |
| 03:24.13 | Shirik | not really |
| 03:24.19 | Shirik | I mean probably |
| 03:24.34 | ZorbaBeta | salmonella is reasonably common on/in chicken (much rarer than people think, but nonzero) |
| 03:24.39 | NightHawkTheSane | it's not particularly fun. |
| 03:25.15 | Shirik | well there's a nonzero chance of mad cow disease too... |
| 03:29.30 | Corrodias | but cow stocks with that found in them are aggressively terminated. or something like that. |
| 03:29.44 | Corrodias | i think with chickens, it's just a lot more common |
| 03:32.46 | tem | Odd licensing question: I started writing an addon a long time ago and got pretty far along in its development. At the time, I was writing it as GPL software |
| 03:32.59 | tem | I want to finish it, but I don't want to license it as GPL |
| 03:33.32 | tem | am I obligated to even though I'm the copyright holder? |
| 03:33.32 | NightHawkTheSane | Corrodias: and fairly easy avoidable with proper cleaning & cooking |
| 03:33.32 | NightHawkTheSane | easily* |
| 03:33.57 | NightHawkTheSane | tem: ... I think you can change the license, but anything you did previously under the GPL remains GPLd |
| 03:34.04 | NightHawkTheSane | i could be really wrong on this, though |
| 03:34.14 | Corrodias | right. those prions are a lot trickier. |
| 03:34.14 | tem | since I guess the completed addon is technically a derivative work of what I wrote 3 years ago |
| 03:34.27 | Arrowmaster | tem: you can change the license but you cant revoke the license on previously released versions |
| 03:34.51 | tem | that works, it was never really released except for being in a "public" svn repo |
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| 03:39.21 | tem | wow |
| 03:39.30 | tem | I was hoping to sidestep a lot of this by just rewriting it |
| 03:39.37 | tem | I put a LOT of work into this addon |
| 03:39.47 | tem | that I _really_ don't feel like redoing |
| 03:39.48 | tem | lol |
| 03:42.05 | Shirik | hey hey ccox |
| 03:42.17 | ccox | yo! |
| 03:42.21 | Shirik | remember our discussion about how many 8086s we could fit in a modern PC? |
| 03:42.30 | ccox | 386, yep |
| 03:42.34 | Shirik | oh |
| 03:42.42 | Shirik | well I found an implementation of an 8086 for my FPGA |
| 03:42.43 | ccox | 3.0 billion transistors on NVidia's latest chip |
| 03:42.45 | Shirik | let me see if there's a 386 |
| 03:42.47 | ccox | cool |
| 03:42.52 | Shirik | I'm going to see how many I can fit on it |
| 03:43.42 | Shirik | here's an implementation of a 186 |
| 03:44.00 | Shirik | woah, it's a 186 and a ton of other stuff |
| 03:44.10 | Shirik | ok that's too much |
| 03:45.15 | Arrowmaster | ok i got sound working for source games in wine |
| 03:45.39 | Arrowmaster | im listening to Still Alive right now |
| 03:46.15 | kd3 | lol |
| 03:46.29 | Arrowmaster | i had to set hardware accel to emulation |
| 03:48.33 | bleeter | belches |
| 03:49.14 | Arrowmaster | hl2.exe still crashes everytime i quit a game though |
| 03:49.39 | Shirik | is that a problem? |
| 03:50.00 | Arrowmaster | its annoying to kill |
| 03:51.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Sesshu (n=Sesshu@ip-228-21.travedsl.de) |
| 03:57.09 | Shirik | kill dash nine |
| 03:57.12 | Shirik | no more CPU time |
| 03:57.56 | Arrowmaster | no i have to kill winedbg when hl2 crashes |
| 03:58.13 | Arrowmaster | actually i have to killall it |
| 04:14.41 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah2 (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 04:18.16 | Shirik | kill dash 14339 |
| 04:19.01 | Shirik | There should be a command `whatami` |
| 04:19.37 | Shirik | mpdelbuono@li23-154 ~ $ kill -39824 7687 |
| 04:19.37 | Shirik | -bash: kill: 39824: invalid signal specification |
| 04:19.40 | Shirik | :( |
| 04:19.45 | Shirik | Signal should be valid imo |
| 04:24.25 | Adys_ | http://db.mmo-champion.com/changelog |
| 04:24.30 | Adys_ | 2.0.1 released \o/ |
| 04:25.48 | tem | this editor automatically trims trailing spaces |
| 04:25.49 | tem | <3 |
| 04:26.11 | Adys | so does Kate |
| 04:32.09 | NightHawkTheSane | tem: which editor is taht? |
| 04:32.16 | tem | SciTe |
| 04:32.23 | NightHawkTheSane | neat. |
| 04:32.24 | tem | I just never noticed |
| 04:32.39 | Shirik | kate is ok |
| 04:32.47 | Shirik | it doesn't work too well on windows |
| 04:33.51 | tem | tinysplit |
| 04:36.28 | Shirik | that was tem's DoS attempt |
| 04:37.04 | *** join/#wowuidev batbot (n=batbot@batbytes.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 04:37.28 | bleeter | I tend to use notepad++ on windows |
| 04:37.38 | Shirik | eww |
| 04:37.42 | Shirik | I just vim |
| 04:38.04 | Shirik | If I need anything beyond vim, it generally is deserving of an IDE |
| 04:39.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Droolio (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk) |
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| 04:41.13 | bleeter | just shows (a) how much time I spend in windows (b) I have consideration for the other person using the computer :P |
| 04:41.51 | NightHawkTheSane | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:42.05 | bleeter | nah, this is when I'm visiting my g/f's |
| 04:42.51 | bleeter | vim sucked hard on pc's until ~2005, anyways |
| 04:44.03 | bleeter | probably has Stevie lying around somewhere |
| 04:44.04 | bleeter | hmmm |
| 04:48.58 | Dagmar | Suuure it did |
| 04:52.08 | *** join/#wowuidev amro (n=amro@li37-20.members.linode.com) |
| 05:12.00 | Shirik | lua> string.char(0xFF) |
| 05:12.01 | lua_bot | Shirik: ÿ |
| 05:12.04 | Shirik | :/ |
| 05:12.08 | Shirik | How do I make that little ?! symbol |
| 05:12.13 | Shirik | where they're on top of each other? |
| 05:12.59 | bleeter | Shirik: is VIM WIndows using native widgets? |
| 05:13.09 | Shirik | I don't know really |
| 05:13.27 | bleeter | just wondering |
| 05:13.45 | bleeter | back last century, ultraedit was all the rage... prolly how I ended up using notepad++ |
| 05:13.53 | bleeter | just got me wondering what it's using |
| 05:14.04 | bleeter | vim moved to gtk2 in ~2004 or so.. /shrug |
| 05:14.12 | Dagmar | gvim, not vim |
| 05:14.15 | bleeter | no idea on that symbol, either |
| 05:14.39 | Dagmar | In all likelihood if the install came with gtk+ libs it's gvim, otherwise it would be much more painful and ugly |
| 05:14.45 | Shirik | "last century" lol |
| 05:15.11 | Dagmar | Since it's mainly a wrapper for vim, if you ignore the buttons you'll be fine |
| 05:15.12 | bleeter | Shirik: you kids today... no idea! :P |
| 05:16.44 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 05:17.04 | Shirik | It really is a wrapper |
| 05:17.09 | bleeter | Dagmar: well shit thanks for telling me that, if you hadn't mentioned it I never would've known |
| 05:17.09 | Shirik | the GUI functionality really sucks |
| 05:17.38 | bleeter | precisely, hence not really suitable as a text editor for non-technical girlfriends, etc. |
| 05:17.44 | Shirik | lol |
| 05:17.48 | bleeter | *slightly advanced text editor |
| 05:17.49 | bleeter | hence |
| 05:17.53 | bleeter | my use of notepad++ |
| 05:17.55 | Shirik | any text editor that doesn't actually type when you type |
| 05:18.01 | Shirik | is probably not good for "non--technical girlfriends" |
| 05:18.08 | bleeter | :) |
| 05:18.13 | Dagmar | bleeter: I'm sorry, i wasn't aware this was the "let's talk to bleeter" channel |
| 05:18.14 | Shirik | lol at work I installed a vim plugin for visual studio |
| 05:18.24 | Shirik | and it worked as a security feature |
| 05:18.33 | bleeter | hehe |
| 05:18.39 | Shirik | any time someone came over and said "no you should do it like this!" it was generally followed shortly thereafter with "wtf is this" |
| 05:19.05 | Dagmar | Good way to keep the monkeys out of the engine room |
| 05:19.23 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 05:19.29 | Shirik | Fisker |
| 05:19.46 | Fisker | hello |
| 05:19.53 | Fisker | i am downloading something |
| 05:20.16 | Shirik | is it NI Requirements Gateway/ |
| 05:20.17 | Shirik | ? |
| 05:21.21 | Thunder_Child | $5 says it's the ptr |
| 05:24.14 | bleeter | Wobin: gogo internode lol http://games.on.net/file/29956/World_of_Warcraft_US_PTR_Patch_3.3.0 |
| 05:28.37 | Fisker | oh no it isn't Thunder_Child :( |
| 05:29.50 | NightHawkTheSane | "Then again, you don't 'tap' bette midler." |
| 05:31.29 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 05:31.53 | Shirik | Fisker |
| 05:32.00 | Fisker | i feel anger |
| 05:34.35 | Fisker | i feel hate |
| 05:34.47 | Fisker | i am going to destroy you |
| 05:35.38 | Shirik | ~x en Fi hello |
| 05:35.44 | Shirik | the fi is for fisker |
| 05:36.24 | Fisker | hello Shirik |
| 05:37.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Yssaril (n=Yssaril@99-57-35-190.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:40.43 | Fisker | 21 minutes Shirik |
| 05:41.01 | Shirik | 42 minutes |
| 05:41.11 | Fisker | 21 |
| 05:41.17 | Fisker | 17 now |
| 05:41.32 | Shirik | 38 |
| 05:41.37 | Fisker | 18 |
| 05:41.42 | Shirik | 62.39599 pi |
| 05:41.57 | Fisker | still 18 |
| 05:42.23 | Shirik | lua> math.random() * math.pi ^ math.pi ^ math.pi ^ math.pi |
| 05:42.23 | lua_bot | Shirik: inf |
| 05:42.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110 (i=Matrix11@ip-95-222-224-247.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 05:42.29 | Shirik | lua> math.random() * math.pi ^ math.pi ^ math.pi |
| 05:42.29 | lua_bot | Shirik: 8.3441519455293e+17 |
| 05:42.45 | Fisker | 16 now! |
| 05:42.53 | Shirik | negative |
| 05:43.13 | Fisker | yes it is |
| 05:43.14 | Shirik | your clock skew is too substantial to accept you as a trustworthy source |
| 05:43.21 | Shirik | please resync your clock and re-engage transmission |
| 05:43.39 | Fisker | 15 minutes! |
| 05:43.50 | Shirik | 2 minutes |
| 05:43.56 | Fisker | no! |
| 05:44.27 | Fisker | 14 minutes! |
| 05:44.42 | Arrowmaster | kerbos? |
| 05:45.13 | Arrowmaster | kerberos? |
| 05:45.34 | Fisker | 12 minutes! |
| 05:46.32 | Shirik | kerberos |
| 05:46.54 | Fisker | no! |
| 05:47.15 | Shirik | on! |
| 05:47.28 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 05:47.31 | Arrowmaster | why are you not using NTP? |
| 05:48.28 | Shirik | NTP is a strange protocol |
| 05:48.51 | Arrowmaster | fine then atleast use SNTP |
| 05:49.56 | Dagmar | NTP is easy if you just spend a bit of time looking at the docs |
| 05:50.14 | Dagmar | There's a million features to the way it adjust clocks, none of which you need to give a damn about for normal "human" purposes |
| 05:50.28 | Shirik | I didn't really mean strange as in difficult |
| 05:50.30 | Shirik | just strange |
| 05:50.41 | Dagmar | Most of them don't matter anyway unless a machine's hardware clock is about to burst into flames |
| 05:51.20 | Dagmar | Shirik: It's because they try to explain things without using integral calculus |
| 05:52.47 | Shirik | ok night |
| 05:52.58 | Shirik | Fisker, SIGSTOP |
| 05:53.02 | Shirik | I will resume you tomorrow |
| 05:53.29 | Arrowmaster | its not hard to configure windows to use ntp.org |
| 05:54.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Taroven1 (n=Taroven@HW-ESR1-208-102-197-5.fuse.net) |
| 05:55.52 | Fisker | you can't |
| 06:01.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Srosh (n=Srosh@c209209.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 06:02.21 | Fisker | it's over Shirik |
| 06:06.34 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (n=stolenle@d86-32-230-29.cust.tele2.at) |
| 06:12.06 | Wobin | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg8YYuLLoM0&feature=player_embedded |
| 06:12.15 | Wobin | hehe when the picker kicks in, it's awesome =) |
| 06:16.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Shadowed (n=outlaw@c-98-207-200-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 06:16.58 | Wobin | also |
| 06:16.59 | Wobin | http://www.cesmes.fi/flash/boxSpin/ |
| 06:19.53 | *** join/#wowuidev tekkub (n=tekkub@c-76-25-226-223.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 06:19.58 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 06:30.43 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (i=as@unaffiliated/a-ko) |
| 06:49.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin1 (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 06:50.36 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 06:53.25 | stolenlegacy | Wobin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0&NR=1 |
| 06:53.35 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost (n=PProvost@c-71-229-131-32.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 06:53.54 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 07:01.33 | Wobin | stolenlegacy, couldn't win the game, eh? |
| 07:01.48 | stolenlegacy | did't ever try |
| 07:02.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-148-5-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 07:03.37 | Wobin | So you failed even before you started? |
| 07:04.06 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraioc_ (n=tomh@client0681.vpn.ox.ac.uk) |
| 07:05.57 | stolenlegacy | prolly |
| 07:09.44 | Thunder_Child | not that hard Wobin. |
| 07:10.05 | Thunder_Child | 43 turns my first try, though the first 3 were wtf moves |
| 07:10.15 | Wobin | yeah |
| 07:10.20 | Wobin | best is 18 |
| 07:10.27 | Thunder_Child | and a way to turn off the sound would be very nice |
| 07:10.28 | Wobin | kinda cool when it chains for ages |
| 07:13.01 | bleeter | finds it hard to believe Caelestrasz is the only realm with the daily reset bug |
| 07:13.07 | bleeter | anyone else noticed it? |
| 07:13.21 | Lukian | which bug? :> |
| 07:13.32 | bleeter | log to char select, they reset |
| 07:13.39 | bleeter | maybe zoning |
| 07:13.44 | Wobin | doesn't reset for me |
| 07:13.49 | Wobin | but I'm not on Cael |
| 07:17.15 | Dagmar | It's not doing it on Skywall |
| 07:17.33 | Dagmar | I checked it out yesterday to see if it was something that needed reporting. |
| 07:17.42 | Dagmar | It's just that server, and probably needs reporting. |
| 07:18.03 | Dagmar | I'm not getting into the business of reporting bugs I can't personally verify. |
| 07:23.35 | Arrowmaster | Wobin: i think i found a bug in that game |
| 07:26.26 | Arrowmaster | oh yeah i found a major bug |
| 07:26.56 | tem | Wobin, 12 turns :D |
| 07:27.50 | Arrowmaster | sometimes the edges wrap other times they dont |
| 07:28.06 | Wobin | yeah |
| 07:28.12 | Wobin | I'm still trying to figure out what does what |
| 07:28.31 | *** join/#wowuidev tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub) |
| 07:28.32 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 07:28.41 | tem | yeah I've noticed that too |
| 07:28.47 | Arrowmaster | 6 turns |
| 07:28.57 | Arrowmaster | turn 3 turned almost the entire board the same color |
| 07:29.20 | Arrowmaster | and i was forced to rotate and edge piece twice to get the one next to it |
| 07:30.00 | Vilkku | soo... anyone on the PTR? |
| 07:34.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Amarande (i=amarande@68-191-37-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 07:34.16 | Amarande | hmm, about that shaman change in 3.3.0 |
| 07:34.24 | Amarande | does this mean fire nova counts as the shaman's damage now instead of pet damage? |
| 07:34.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 07:35.35 | Amarande | hopes so hopes so hopes so hopes so ... |
| 07:35.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper1 (n=Spellsha@dslb-084-057-247-030.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 07:35.48 | Amarande | one of the main things that always used to turn me off to playing shammies was pretty simple |
| 07:35.59 | Amarande | you didn't really have any means of AoE farming lower level stuff when you got to higher levels |
| 07:36.12 | Amarande | because chain lightning only hit like ... what is it, 3 mobs? and your only *real* aoe is fire nova |
| 07:36.20 | Amarande | but that counts as *pet* damage, so you don't get the loots if you do that ... |
| 07:36.42 | Amarande | (that and the stupid mobs always omnomnom your fire nova totem before it ever gets a chance to go off. :P) |
| 07:37.33 | Wobin | Amarande, easy |
| 07:37.39 | Wobin | thunderstorm |
| 07:37.43 | Wobin | then fire nova |
| 07:39.18 | Vilkku | also, real shaman aoe has always been magma :P |
| 07:40.10 | Vilkku | anyway, what I was going to say was |
| 07:40.13 | Amarande | Vilkku: that doesn't solve the issue of it being pet damage for farming purposes though |
| 07:40.34 | Vilkku | Amarande, true |
| 07:41.00 | Vilkku | I either thunderstorm or make sure I hit each target, a bit annoying but I never had major issues |
| 07:41.14 | Vilkku | It's a good question tho |
| 07:41.19 | Amarande | actually, there seem to be a lot of woot changes for 3.3.0. |
| 07:41.36 | Vilkku | now, anyway, the guy on the wowi forums conserned about his addons folder being 30 or something MB |
| 07:41.39 | Amarande | no more avoidance working in pvp, for instance. now I can just blast you and your pet instead of having to individually deal with your pet. |
| 07:41.40 | Vilkku | mine is 130 MB. |
| 07:42.01 | Amarande | (unless you're a shaman, damned aoe-proof totems :P) |
| 07:42.32 | Amarande | and maybe this 90% aoe damage reduction in PvE will be enough to make hunters stop crying about Ulduar. :) |
| 07:43.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (n=caleb@dsl4E5C0660.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 07:43.06 | Vilkku | aoe damage reduction? |
| 07:43.22 | Amarande | Vilkku: the Avoidance abilities for various pets, so they take less damage from PvE AoE attacks |
| 07:43.29 | Dagmar | It's been there awhile now. |
| 07:43.30 | Vilkku | ah |
| 07:43.37 | Amarande | it's being buffed to a (max, in case of multi-level talents) 90% reduction |
| 07:43.48 | Amarande | presumably, I suppose, -because- of hunter complaints in Ulduar |
| 07:43.49 | Vilkku | well boo. |
| 07:44.02 | Vilkku | it's not like hunters weren't already on the top of the meters :P |
| 07:44.05 | Amarande | Vilkku: it's only PvE, so don't worry about PvP (they're actually specifically making it not work in PvP in 3.3) |
| 07:44.08 | Dagmar | You try keeping your pet out of "stuff" sometime when you can't _actually_ control their placement. |
| 07:44.15 | Amarande | Vilkku: actually, they had some pretty bad issues in Ulduar |
| 07:44.36 | Amarande | even some otherwise really competent BM hunters were losing 1K or more DPS there because of having to devote so much attention to keeping their pets out of XYZ |
| 07:45.01 | Amarande | (apparently, Ulduar is especially bad compared to past instances regarding this ... not sure if even TOC has as much trouble with this) |
| 07:45.27 | Dagmar | Anywhere with lots of "stuff" on the floor is a bitch |
| 07:45.44 | Dagmar | ...or at least it was until they make pets practicalyl immune to it |
| 07:45.44 | Amarande | and I thought it was rogues and enh shamans that topped meters lately anyway :) |
| 07:45.58 | Dagmar | s/make/made/; |
| 07:46.02 | Amarande | Dagmar: with the controls available in WoW, nerfing the damage it does to pets was probably a necessity |
| 07:46.08 | Dagmar | Exactly. |
| 07:46.30 | Amarande | enh shamans apparently max out over nine thousand now, and I mean that *literally* |
| 07:46.31 | Dagmar | The only other way we could do it before is if the tank repositioned constantly for both themselves, AND the pet |
| 07:46.36 | Amarande | not sure if anyone else comes close yet |
| 07:46.48 | Dagmar | ...and anyone who's done Heigan as a hunter knows the odds of them being willing to do that are vanishingly small |
| 07:46.54 | Vilkku | WHATNINETHOUSAND? |
| 07:46.55 | Wobin | yeah, fire nova as a totem takes too long to wind up |
| 07:46.57 | Amarande | (good gods, are we going to be expected to pull 10K DPS to raid in Cata? :) |
| 07:47.16 | Dagmar | Amarande: No. |
| 07:47.18 | Vilkku | I can pull 10K in WotLK :P |
| 07:47.23 | Vilkku | but that's Hodir. |
| 07:47.35 | Amarande | Wobin: it also eats your fire totem spot, which if you're soloing often needs to be magma and if you're grouping people will kill you if it is not flametongue |
| 07:47.58 | Dagmar | What they've released so far makes it sound like anyone competent enough to do HToC without problems should be able to start right in in 3.3 |
| 07:48.04 | Wobin | I've never really seen a situation where fire nova was useful |
| 07:48.14 | Amarande | Dagmar: competent *and geared* |
| 07:48.18 | Dagmar | This is relevant to my interests, as it were |
| 07:48.25 | Wobin | magma is much more effective |
| 07:48.30 | Amarande | aside from the somewhat likely possibility (anyone do a heroic on the PTR yet?) that heroic badges are going to be upgraded again |
| 07:48.50 | Dagmar | Amarande: Anyone whose been capable of HToC already has four pieces of 213 for sure, and probably a few 245's |
| 07:48.50 | Amarande | I'm sure it will be even worse on the new 80s |
| 07:48.51 | Vilkku | fire nova has some use in pvp if it's talented |
| 07:49.04 | Dagmar | I mean, I watched the DPS on my DK go up by 150-200 per regular ToC the day before yesterday |
| 07:49.06 | Amarande | actually, that makes me think one of the new warlock changes is NOT good |
| 07:49.15 | Vilkku | Amarande, Emblem of Frost. |
| 07:49.22 | Dagmar | Two days of screwing around and I doubled my DPS on that toon (2000 now) and I'm only about half done |
| 07:49.30 | Amarande | Vilkku: that's going to be the top end raid badge I presume |
| 07:49.41 | Amarande | what I'm wondering is if heroics will stay conqs or if they'll be upgraded to triumph this time around |
| 07:49.43 | Vilkku | ah, yes, sorry, I misread |
| 07:49.56 | Vilkku | tbh, I doubt it |
| 07:49.59 | Amarande | from a purely objective standpoint, it's nice to give the newbies a leg up with the imp at level one |
| 07:50.04 | Amarande | from a subjective standpoint |
| 07:50.11 | Amarande | I fear this will encourage a lot of newer players to start a warlock |
| 07:50.28 | Amarande | and then cry in disappointment at 80 when they cannot get geared up because they are too far behind the gear curve and it will take them forever to get a group for anything |
| 07:50.50 | Amarande | and since warlocks don't have any tanking or healing capability, they can't do that to improve their chances either |
| 07:50.56 | Vilkku | well, you used to get imp at level 4, right? |
| 07:51.03 | Amarande | Vilkku: yeah, and with a quest |
| 07:51.08 | Vilkku | I mean, that's an hour or so played :P |
| 07:51.20 | Vilkku | I doubt it will affect new players that much |
| 07:51.30 | Amarande | if anything, 3.3.0 should be discouraging new players from being rogues, warlocks, mages, or ummmm ... what's the other DPS only class? I can't remember now :) |
| 07:51.33 | Amarande | oh yeah. hunters. lol |
| 07:51.49 | Amarande | my brain is fried, I think I did too many chain heroics Thursday night :| |
| 07:51.51 | Vilkku | I like the fact that rogues get dual wield instantly |
| 07:52.06 | Amarande | hell, yesterday at work, the guy I work with who's a fellow WoW player |
| 07:52.13 | Amarande | I was going to ask him when he came up to the desk if he wanted his paycheck |
| 07:52.17 | Amarande | and I end up asking him if he wanted his badge |
| 07:52.20 | Amarande | I have BADGES ON THE MIND |
| 07:52.21 | Amarande | :| |
| 07:52.34 | Vilkku | I got too many badges |
| 07:52.45 | Vilkku | I got 150 or so triumph, 300+ conq |
| 07:52.48 | Amarande | actually, I should be able to be a little more laid back about badge farming now |
| 07:53.06 | Amarande | my DPS is more consistently in the upper 3Ks in longer boss battles (shorter ones are hard to measure for warlocks for some reason) |
| 07:53.11 | Vilkku | but nothing to use them on, the trophies are going for insanely high prices (dkp) |
| 07:53.32 | Amarande | and the main reason I was so death-marching on conqs this week is because after I got certain gear upgrades in TOC, I needed to get hitcapped again and couldn't do it all that reasonably without the T8 robe |
| 07:54.01 | Vilkku | what level of content are you running? |
| 07:54.03 | Amarande | I'm still wondering what I'm going to do about the 44 hit rating I need to replace when I get the T8 helm so I can get 2pt8, though |
| 07:54.05 | Dagmar | Hit caps are for people who can't do math |
| 07:54.07 | Amarande | Vilkku: whatever I can PUG |
| 07:54.13 | Vilkku | ah, no raids? |
| 07:54.20 | Amarande | usually heroics, and a few of the shorter raids like VOA, OS10, Ony10 |
| 07:54.24 | tem | Dagmar, please please please tell me you weren't doing 1k dps at 80 on any toon? |
| 07:54.43 | Dagmar | tem: On a DK wearing greens from level 75? Of COURSE I had crap DPS |
| 07:54.53 | Amarande | Dagmar: you need 368 hit rating on a warlock without suppression. that's what I know. :) |
| 07:54.54 | tem | I hate to say this, but you're bad |
| 07:55.05 | Amarande | tem: gear is not an indication of player skill |
| 07:55.12 | Dagmar | No, you just have no idea how much more powerful the gear gets at 80 |
| 07:55.13 | Amarande | at least, not when you first ding :) |
| 07:55.14 | Vilkku | Amarande: 289 if you have a shadow priest in the group |
| 07:55.21 | tem | I'm not talking about gear |
| 07:55.27 | Amarande | Vilkku: 368 is already taking into account the spriest buff I thought? |
| 07:55.27 | Vilkku | if you are alliance, 1% less because of the spaceman aura |
| 07:55.29 | tem | Anyone in quest greens can do 1k dps at level 70 |
| 07:55.32 | Amarande | that's 3%, otherwise you need 446 |
| 07:55.35 | Dagmar | Well, it's a little damn hard to do DPS without it |
| 07:55.40 | tem | doing that at level 80 is a clear indicator that you're bad at your class |
| 07:55.51 | Dagmar | I had him defense-capped tho by god |
| 07:55.56 | Dagmar | Bullshit. |
| 07:56.07 | Dagmar | Making that claim is a clear indicator you've not looked at how crap that gear is |
| 07:56.08 | tem | wait wait, are you a tank? |
| 07:56.11 | Vilkku | Amarande, don't warlocks have a talent which increases it by 3%? Then another 3% from spriest should be 289 |
| 07:56.15 | Dagmar | Dur |
| 07:56.18 | Amarande | Vilkku: that's in aff |
| 07:56.25 | Amarande | the standard cookie cutter destro build does not take that talent |
| 07:56.28 | Dagmar | You can't get both "good" dps and def-capped with level 75 gear |
| 07:56.40 | tem | Dagmar, tanks are aloowed to do less dps than that |
| 07:56.56 | Amarande | it's generally established that you lose significant dps by moving 3 points out of destro into suppression |
| 07:57.12 | Dagmar | Yes, so at 80 I've been switching out heaps of defense for strength |
| 07:57.15 | Amarande | fwiw, though, I did OS10 1% off the hitcap and I don't see any misses on my recount detail |
| 07:57.38 | Amarande | or if there were, they didn't matter because I was still #2 on the meters |
| 07:57.53 | Amarande | I'm trying to remember what the one guy who beat me out was ... mage or shaman I think |
| 07:57.58 | Dagmar | I was benching Rawr and dummy damage against each other. I was doing good to hit 1k with that gear |
| 07:57.59 | Amarande | both of those do stupidly high dps compared to other classes though |
| 07:58.12 | tem | Dagmar, having said that, though, I'm pretty certain that even as a tank you should have been doing WAY more dps than 1k (on a DK) |
| 07:58.21 | Amarande | the worst DPS I've done against a boss lately ... would be about 750 against keristrasza heroic yesterday |
| 07:58.21 | Dagmar | Not with that gear |
| 07:58.31 | Amarande | and I warned the group beforehand that my DPS would be bad in that case, and they were ok with it |
| 07:58.40 | tem | (my main is a DK tank. I've leveled to 80 twice on a DK tank. I am well familliar with how much dps you put out while tanking at 80) |
| 07:58.45 | Amarande | that was because I was going for the intense cold achievement (as I told group) and there was no way I could risk casting anything but immo and conflag |
| 07:58.54 | Dagmar | You were thinking of buffs |
| 07:59.01 | Dagmar | ...and you probably had better gear. |
| 07:59.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=mpdelbuo@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 07:59.08 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 07:59.13 | Dagmar | I hit 80 with two pieces above i138 |
| 07:59.23 | Amarande | I didn't have enough haste to risk casting incinerate at all |
| 07:59.29 | Amarande | if chains hit me during that, I would have lost the ach for sure |
| 07:59.30 | tem | ... wtf were you leveling in? |
| 07:59.42 | tem | Amarande, get a dispeller and move on |
| 07:59.42 | Dagmar | "Random shit" because it didn't matter. |
| 07:59.48 | Amarande | but like I said, group was ok with it so yeah. :) |
| 07:59.48 | Dagmar | You don't even need to talent to level up at the Tournament |
| 08:00.03 | tem | wha? |
| 08:00.04 | Dagmar | ...but ostensibly Unholy because it's handier for farming mats |
| 08:00.20 | tem | you just did the jousting dailies to level all the way to 80 |
| 08:00.25 | Dagmar | Just about |
| 08:00.30 | tem | dot dot dot |
| 08:00.37 | Dagmar | It's not my main. |
| 08:00.37 | tem | and your main is a hunter |
| 08:00.45 | Amarande | I forget what I had when I first hit 80 |
| 08:00.48 | tem | my respect for you dwindles to Amarande levels |
| 08:00.54 | Dagmar | Whatever dude |
| 08:00.56 | Amarande | I know I had a piece of i200 epic almost right away after I did, though, since I was a JC and made the necklace |
| 08:00.56 | tem | :P |
| 08:01.08 | Fisker | slaps tem around a bit with a large trout |
| 08:01.10 | Amarande | and the FIRST things I went for when I started doing JC dailies were the epic patterns |
| 08:01.20 | Dagmar | I had literally half the strength from armor that I do now from the upgrades I've gotten since hitting 80 |
| 08:01.26 | Dagmar | All I was worrying about was soaking up quest CP |
| 08:01.29 | Dagmar | s/CP/XP/; |
| 08:01.31 | Amarande | main thing: those will actually still have some level of use as leveling gear for alts in cata, even if I don't make much use of them on my main now |
| 08:01.32 | tem | well I certainly see why |
| 08:01.46 | Dagmar | You can *not* do major DPS without hefty gear |
| 08:01.57 | Dagmar | Otherwise there'd be level 70's pwning Ulduar |
| 08:01.59 | tem | it't not about having hefty gear |
| 08:02.09 | tem | it's about having level-appropriate gear |
| 08:02.11 | Dagmar | It is if you don't have it. |
| 08:02.17 | Amarande | tem: depends on the dps standard your group is calling for |
| 08:02.29 | Amarande | most groups at this point in progression call for DPS to have significantly greater capability than the instance really requires |
| 08:02.35 | tem | the random shit you pick up from quests on the way up is more than adequate to do 1800 dps in a heroic |
| 08:02.35 | Dagmar | ...and if you're soloing to 80, who gives a crap what your gear is as long as you can survive. |
| 08:02.48 | tem | *headdesk* |
| 08:02.50 | Amarande | tem: and many groups call for 3000+ for heroics now |
| 08:02.54 | Dagmar | Keep whacking it on the desk. |
| 08:02.59 | Dagmar | You might jog something into working. |
| 08:03.13 | Amarande | the random shit you pick up from quests on the way up is nowhere near adequate to do 3k dps in a heroic |
| 08:03.21 | tem | Amarande, Meh. Those people just want to group with geared people because they want the heroic to end quickly and without issue |
| 08:03.31 | tem | it's not about the heroic actually requiring you to do 3k dps |
| 08:03.44 | Dagmar | ...so they can get back to posting on the forums about everything being too easy. |
| 08:03.44 | Amarande | tem: yeah, and I understand that. given how many conqs I need to buy anything good I want my heroics to run short too |
| 08:04.07 | tem | it's just like the people bitching at tanks who have less than 30k unbuffed hp when they join a group |
| 08:04.11 | Amarande | however, I also worry for the people who just hit 80 and run into issues gearing up because groups are calling for such above-par DPS and they can't do it in the gear they have when they hit 80 |
| 08:04.21 | tem | What do fucking think we did when LK came out? We didn't hit 80 and suddenly have 30k hp |
| 08:04.31 | tem | s/do/do you/ |
| 08:04.36 | Dagmar | Apparently some people think you hit 80 and automatically have 3000 dps |
| 08:04.38 | Amarande | or new tanks that hit 80, and can't actually tank because they don't have enough HP to meet the current environment's grouping standard |
| 08:05.07 | Amarande | and that's why I got into such a frazzlement in past months |
| 08:05.13 | tem | There are 3 ways around that atm |
| 08:05.14 | Wobin | or new tanks at 80 who have never tanked an instance before |
| 08:05.21 | Wobin | and who expect to be perfect tanks |
| 08:05.25 | Amarande | I knew I was playing my class well, and choosing appropriate talents and glyphs and trying to get the right stats on gear |
| 08:05.34 | tem | Those people need to gtfo and do low level dungeons until they learn how to tank |
| 08:05.46 | Amarande | *but* because I didn't hit 80 till late December, didn't dungeon every day, and took a 6 month break over spring and summer |
| 08:05.48 | Dagmar | Been there, done that |
| 08:05.48 | tem | oh dear fucking christ I ran into some terrible tanks gearing up my tree |
| 08:06.00 | Amarande | I was having constant difficulties getting into groups until fairly lately |
| 08:06.24 | tem | you are probably still having trouble because you aren't a tank or healer |
| 08:06.36 | Amarande | tem: yeah, I'd still have an easier time as a tank or healer |
| 08:06.51 | Amarande | it's probably why I actually did multiple VOA25 and saw Ony10 and VOA10 before I even got into heroic TOC |
| 08:06.54 | tem | even with people bitching about tanks not having enough hp, it's still easy to get a group as an undergeared tank |
| 08:07.07 | Amarande | those groups actually had room for enough DPS to actually join the group |
| 08:07.16 | Amarande | whereas, heroic TOC takes three DPS to a group and everyone wants to go, so yeah |
| 08:07.22 | tem | you join a group, they bitch, you tell them to call you when they fail to find someone else and leave |
| 08:07.29 | tem | 10 minutes later, you get another invite and tank the place just fine |
| 08:07.38 | tem | (assuming you aren't a bad tank and the healer isn't asleep) |
| 08:07.56 | Amarande | let's just say this: my gear may have been terribad until lately. it's still not optimal. but I've never been bitched out in a raid except for being kicked out one time |
| 08:08.25 | tem | imo it's discourteous to the other poeple in a raid if you join it when you know you're undergeared for it |
| 08:08.25 | Amarande | and that's because a raid leader felt it easier to blame the wipe on ony25 on me only doing 3.5K DPS |
| 08:08.36 | Amarande | I wonder if that raid ever actually finished |
| 08:08.39 | tem | yeah that's pretty bogus |
| 08:08.43 | tem | oh |
| 08:08.45 | tem | ony25 |
| 08:08.48 | Amarande | because, well ... far as I could tell, it was a bunch of bads with overinflated DPS figures |
| 08:08.54 | tem | you had no business in ony25 at 3.5k dps |
| 08:08.55 | Dagmar | That depends on whose definition of "undergeared" you go by. |
| 08:08.58 | Fisker | haxes |
| 08:09.04 | tem | It's pretty simple |
| 08:09.04 | Dagmar | Bullshit, again. |
| 08:09.08 | Amarande | but the RL felt it easier to blame things on me than on the fact that the raid was full of bads, I guess :) |
| 08:09.10 | tem | Check the ilvl of gear the boss drops |
| 08:09.23 | Dagmar | We just torched Ony with no one doing test dummy damage more than 3500 |
| 08:09.23 | tem | if your gear doesn't average in the next lower bracket, you don't belong |
| 08:09.37 | Amarande | tem: I'm not sure what my gear progression is at all anymore |
| 08:09.52 | Amarande | probably thanks to the fact that I've been relying a lot on voa and badges, my gear is a motley across-the-board 187-245 assortment |
| 08:09.58 | tem | well, ony25 may be an exception because she's fucking easy |
| 08:10.05 | tem | but she's an ilvl 245 boss |
| 08:10.07 | Amarande | (and sadly, the one 187 item might be there for quite a while because I need it for the hit rating) |
| 08:10.21 | tem | if you're not in 226 gear, you're gimping your raid |
| 08:10.30 | Amarande | basically, there seems to be a really shitty assortment of epic caster helms that have hit rating and a fucking meta socket. |
| 08:10.36 | Dagmar | Amarande: Pretty simple math. If the gear upgrade gets you more % damage than you lose in hit, upgrade it |
| 08:10.39 | Amarande | I don't know who designed the bloody gear this expansion. :) |
| 08:10.57 | tem | like I said, though, she's hillariously easy so you can probably get away with more like 219 gear than 226 |
| 08:11.10 | Dagmar | Backpedaler |
| 08:11.15 | Amarande | tem: yeah, if I had been able to do better on the meters, I wouldn't have even been noticed I'm sure |
| 08:11.29 | Amarande | fwiw, I thought I could do 4k because I had done 4k on a couple bosses before that |
| 08:11.36 | tem | consider toc25 |
| 08:11.49 | Amarande | but that was optimal condition peak dps, like coren without being bumped by any stun brew or dark iron moles |
| 08:11.49 | tem | trying to do toc25 in anything less than ilvl 226 gear is PAINFUL |
| 08:11.57 | tem | it's POSSIBLE, but you're really pushing it |
| 08:12.09 | Amarande | I didn't quite realize how much you lose off peak dps with all the moving around in ony |
| 08:12.12 | Dagmar | If your'e an idiot, and all the people who are running are idiots, then you _definitely_ need massive DPS to get away with noobing it through |
| 08:12.27 | Amarande | although I should probably have known, with how many bosses people with decent gear show considerably sub-peak DPS on in recount, even in heroics |
| 08:12.31 | tem | and without everyone being on their game (hint: that will never happen in a pug) doing it undergeared ISNT going to happen |
| 08:12.37 | tem | Dagmar, I'm talking in the context of pugs |
| 08:12.44 | Amarande | achievements make it worse in heroics, too |
| 08:12.49 | Dagmar | Amarande: Dude, tell me about it. I had to reconfig some macros so I could keep chasing down wardens with the pet |
| 08:12.50 | tem | NO WAY |
| 08:12.56 | Amarande | we went for chaos theory yesterday morning in h nexus |
| 08:13.05 | tem | Achievements make Heroics bearable |
| 08:13.09 | Amarande | and I don't think anyone clocked more than maybe 1600-2000 or so dps |
| 08:13.13 | tem | I fucking love those things |
| 08:13.22 | tem | that's fine, Chaos theory is a survive achievement |
| 08:13.25 | Amarande | in large part because dot ticks while anomalus goes immune count HEAVILY against your recount |
| 08:13.28 | tem | not a OMFGDPS achievement |
| 08:13.36 | Fisker | i didn't kill my wife tem |
| 08:13.58 | tem | Also, the red proto is a freaking sweet mount for my alts |
| 08:14.15 | Dagmar | Seemed like a blind DPS achievement to me |
| 08:14.24 | tem | Dagmar, have you ever done it? |
| 08:14.32 | tem | he phases out at hp intervals |
| 08:14.44 | tem | so you get the same number of them every time |
| 08:14.47 | Amarande | yeah, he goes immune every 25% no matter what. |
| 08:14.51 | tem | no matter how much dps you do |
| 08:15.12 | Dagmar | ...and if you have a good healer and people ignore the rifts because they're stupid, you get the achievement. |
| 08:15.21 | Amarande | tem: you haven't seen turalyon horde pugs, btw. :) |
| 08:15.33 | Amarande | let's compare, say, Turalyon Horde to Quel'dorei Horde |
| 08:15.35 | tem | I WOULD NOT do those achievements in pugs |
| 08:15.40 | Amarande | the two servers I've been at max level and have tried raids on |
| 08:15.51 | Dagmar | http://www.wowhead.com/?achievement=2042 <-- like this one |
| 08:15.57 | Amarande | Turalyon Horde PUGs tend to be better than Quel'dorei Horde GUILD groups. |
| 08:16.00 | tem | there are a couple like Dehydration or Void Dance that pugs can manage |
| 08:16.19 | tem | oh and the speed kill achievements are easily doable in pugs now since everyone has stupidly good gear |
| 08:16.21 | Amarande | in fact, I can't remember the last time I *HAD* a bad PUG, other than maybe that Ony25 |
| 08:16.39 | Dagmar | Amarande: Take all comers to HToC |
| 08:17.04 | Amarande | meh, HToC is a lot easier than it's made out to be |
| 08:17.05 | tem | Dagmar, I don't think there's a healer good enough to heal the damage of all those rifts to "accidently" get Chaos Theory |
| 08:17.24 | Amarande | I died on Paletress and the group still managed to take her down with only 2 DPS |
| 08:17.30 | Dagmar | You get a rogue whose been doing Ulduar 25 with his classmates and a tank who is still wearing blues and you WILL see some spectacular fail most of the time |
| 08:17.31 | Amarande | though I was a noob for not running back in |
| 08:17.41 | Amarande | however: 1) I've never had to release there so I still don't know where the GY is |
| 08:17.54 | tem | when you do Chaos Theory properly, MOST of the damage lands on the tank |
| 08:17.56 | Amarande | and 2) at the time, every time I was outdoors in the tournament I got lag that was at least as bad as dalaran |
| 08:18.07 | tem | it takes some clever positioning, but the tank soaks up most of the lightning |
| 08:18.15 | tem | so the only real threat is the adds |
| 08:18.39 | tem | you just keep moving the group back away from him so only the tank takes the overcharge damage and then AOE the adds as they run to you |
| 08:18.47 | tem | it's great fun to tank and heal |
| 08:18.48 | Amarande | like I said yesterday: before I turned my graphics down, realizing that was the cause of most of the lag (although before 3.2 I'd been able to play wow just fine with maxed graphics settings ... wtf) |
| 08:19.01 | tem | I haven't dpsed it, yet because all my level 80s are tanks or healers >.> |
| 08:19.01 | Amarande | I missed half the joust in one HTOC because it took me that long with lag to get my ass into the instance |
| 08:19.15 | tem | Lucky you |
| 08:19.21 | tem | The stupid joust is annoying |
| 08:19.24 | Amarande | ehh, I find the joust pretty fun |
| 08:19.29 | Amarande | especially since it takes like zero skill |
| 08:19.29 | Wobin | chaos theory is also a fps achievemnt =P |
| 08:19.41 | tem | I love it when I show up to the instance and the joust is done |
| 08:19.44 | Amarande | Wobin: that was after I turned down my graphics so I was fine |
| 08:20.09 | tem | The ones I'm having trouble completing lately are the oculus achievements |
| 08:20.12 | Amarande | right now, the crappiest FPS based achievement is probably More Whelps! Handle It! |
| 08:20.20 | tem | they aren't terribly hard, but fuck if I can find guildmates that'll go |
| 08:20.20 | Amarande | tem: this is because oculus sucks and no one wants to go there? :) |
| 08:20.31 | Wobin | yeah |
| 08:20.31 | Amarande | thought so, heh |
| 08:20.38 | Wobin | Occulus isn't so bad nowadays |
| 08:20.39 | tem | and none of those achievements are happening with pugs |
| 08:20.42 | Wobin | they nerfed it something terrible |
| 08:20.44 | nevcairiel | I was lacking two achievements for my red proto drake, then i lost interest. |
| 08:20.48 | Dagmar | It's still freaking tedious |
| 08:20.48 | Amarande | that reminds me, oculus is the only daily I still have to do for the timear foresees achievement |
| 08:20.48 | Wobin | but people are still gunshy |
| 08:21.03 | Amarande | nev: I'm still not interested in the proto drakes :S |
| 08:21.07 | Amarande | they look ugly |
| 08:21.11 | tem | OMFGWHAT? |
| 08:21.20 | tem | Proto-Drakes = best mounts in all of wow |
| 08:21.22 | nevcairiel | I have the naxx-25 drake, its awesome |
| 08:21.24 | Amarande | wings drooping all over the ground when you land :| |
| 08:21.31 | tem | nevcairiel, I <3 my black proto |
| 08:21.39 | Amarande | I still like the netherwing drakes the best |
| 08:21.43 | tem | I wish my damn guild would care about the ulduar achievements |
| 08:21.46 | nevcairiel | I should complete the red-proto achievements some day |
| 08:21.54 | tem | we only need 3xKnock and One Light for Ironbound drakes |
| 08:22.03 | Amarande | nev: that's the one for what, all the 5-man heroics? |
| 08:22.03 | nevcairiel | i'm lackign the AN final boss time achievement, and one in occulus |
| 08:22.11 | tem | Emerald Void? |
| 08:22.12 | Amarande | is that a 280 or a 310? |
| 08:22.20 | tem | red proto is a 280 |
| 08:22.23 | nevcairiel | tem, nah, just the silly "defeat boss on all 3 drakes" :P |
| 08:22.37 | tem | ironbound, plagued, rusted, black, violet are 310 |
| 08:22.41 | nevcairiel | that instance annoyed me so much after i died like every time when i was tanking |
| 08:22.44 | nevcairiel | and didnt get credit |
| 08:22.49 | tem | D: |
| 08:23.04 | Wobin | yeah |
| 08:23.04 | Amarande | you know, all these people QQ about not being able to get their violet proto drake for another year |
| 08:23.10 | Wobin | I got my drake killed |
| 08:23.15 | Wobin | but landed on the platform |
| 08:23.15 | Amarande | why don't they just bloody go 10-man TK |
| 08:23.17 | Bruners | haste: we need to do achivements for 310 mounts! |
| 08:23.22 | Wobin | and spent the rest of the fight healing the other drakes |
| 08:23.22 | Amarande | maybe they'll get lucky within an -entire year- :P |
| 08:23.25 | nevcairiel | Wobin, that still doesnt get you credit =( |
| 08:23.26 | Wobin | but didn't get the achievement |
| 08:23.38 | Amarande | like hello thar kael'thas you are ubar ez nao |
| 08:23.39 | nevcairiel | also, it pulls aggro off all the small drakes when you heal :P |
| 08:23.46 | nevcairiel | the whelps |
| 08:23.52 | Dagmar | Amarande: Alas, no. |
| 08:23.55 | Wobin | hm, I didn't notice =) |
| 08:24.01 | Amarande | nev: I thought the easiest way now with good gear is amber zerg? |
| 08:24.03 | Wobin | I was too busy healing myself from his hits =) |
| 08:24.07 | Dagmar | Amarande: He'll STILL kick yer ass unless you have your act together |
| 08:24.25 | nevcairiel | pure emerald was fun |
| 08:24.30 | nevcairiel | kiting the boss and throwing dots on him |
| 08:24.30 | tem | if you miss a stun and he summons some whelps you're boned |
| 08:24.33 | Wobin | I'm just glad I was a class that could actually help |
| 08:24.36 | tem | nevcairiel, is that still possible? |
| 08:24.37 | Amarande | Dagmar: yeah, I'm willing to suspect a lot of people whining about the violet proto are bads who wouldn't be able to do TK |
| 08:24.42 | Bruners | is the TK mount 310% ? |
| 08:24.43 | nevcairiel | tem, i dunno, we did it in 3.0 |
| 08:24.46 | tem | that's how I got my ruby/amber voic achievement |
| 08:24.48 | Amarande | yes, the phoenix is 310 |
| 08:24.51 | tem | but we did it in december |
| 08:24.57 | Amarande | phoenix and the ony mount are the only 310 drops |
| 08:24.59 | tem | so I'm not sure it's still doable |
| 08:25.09 | tem | I think they buffed the speed of the whelps or something |
| 08:25.21 | Amarande | tem: there's heroic achievements you can't do now? |
| 08:25.36 | Wobin | with certain configurations |
| 08:25.38 | Amarande | although, I wouldn't be surprised if with nerfs there's some that are almost impossible now unless you gear up in 258 and zerg |
| 08:25.45 | tem | There were lots of "easy ways" to do achievements back in the day |
| 08:25.47 | Wobin | you can do the achievements, just not with, say, three emeralds |
| 08:25.50 | tem | that have been nerfed |
| 08:25.55 | Amarande | tem: ah yeah, like the nadox one |
| 08:26.02 | Amarande | I was lucky to get that one pre-nerf, I'm not sure how you do it now |
| 08:26.08 | tem | nadox? |
| 08:26.14 | tem | hadronox denied? |
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| 08:26.18 | Wobin | whatchamacallit denied |
| 08:26.22 | Amarande | I forget what you had to do, but the trick was to kite him back to the entrance, yeah |
| 08:26.26 | Amarande | then they nerfed that |
| 08:26.28 | tem | OH |
| 08:26.28 | Wobin | oh |
| 08:26.30 | Wobin | watch him die? |
| 08:26.33 | tem | Respect your Elders |
| 08:26.42 | Wobin | oh yeah, elder nados |
| 08:26.43 | Wobin | x |
| 08:26.43 | tem | the first boss in Old Kingdom |
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| 08:26.52 | Wobin | hehe, we tried the kiting |
| 08:26.53 | nevcairiel | oh the kite action =P |
| 08:26.56 | tem | I did it via kiting |
| 08:26.56 | Wobin | it ended terribly |
| 08:27.01 | Amarande | there's also some groups I can think would be UBER PAIN to try some achievements with |
| 08:27.09 | Wobin | cause he now enrages if he leaves the area |
| 08:27.10 | nevcairiel | kite to instance entrance, kill before mobs arrive |
| 08:27.10 | Amarande | bringing five druids for 2-minute volazj comes to mind. :) |
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| 08:27.11 | Bruners | you can have one healer standing on the platform healing |
| 08:27.11 | nevcairiel | easy! |
| 08:27.12 | nevcairiel | ;) |
| 08:27.20 | tem | Amarande, a lot of those achievements require certain group compositions |
| 08:27.26 | Amarande | actually bringing five druids for volazj sounds like you should get a 'defeat volazj in over an hour' achievement :) |
| 08:27.38 | Amarande | tem: yeah, that I can think would be the case |
| 08:27.46 | Amarande | are there any that some classes can just forget about being in the config for right now? |
| 08:27.47 | nevcairiel | tem, whats why i never got the AN-finalboss thing, i was the healer <.< |
| 08:27.51 | Amarande | or can every class still get a red proto reasonably? |
| 08:27.59 | tem | like before everyone had stupid gear, you didn't use a healer for certain things |
| 08:27.59 | nevcairiel | after they nerfed it, no-one went there anymore :P |
| 08:28.08 | Amarande | tem: yeah, like volazj 2 minute |
| 08:28.11 | tem | yes |
| 08:28.14 | Amarande | because if you had ANY kind of a healer (and druids were worst) |
| 08:28.21 | tem | We just made our healer spec ret |
| 08:28.21 | Amarande | you spent more than that in the fucking mind control phase |
| 08:28.28 | nevcairiel | volazj? who was that? |
| 08:28.33 | Amarande | nev: boss in old kingdom |
| 08:28.35 | tem | and his dps was horribad, but we could kill him |
| 08:28.36 | nevcairiel | oh right |
| 08:28.37 | Amarande | his gimmick was that every now and then |
| 08:28.40 | nevcairiel | we exploited him |
| 08:28.48 | tem | I missed that exploit |
| 08:28.51 | Amarande | he would make each of you phase out and fight clones of the party |
| 08:28.58 | Amarande | and healers were stupidly effective as clones |
| 08:28.59 | tem | I was SAD when they nerfed it because that was one of the last ones I did |
| 08:29.00 | Wobin | nevcairiel, you made him work in the salt mines for minimal to no pay? |
| 08:29.02 | Amarande | so ... if you bring druids, ouch |
| 08:29.03 | nevcairiel | you could hide behind some pillar, and he wouldnt do his phase |
| 08:29.15 | tem | I wonder what happens if you solo him |
| 08:29.26 | Wobin | you still come across yourself, don't you? |
| 08:29.29 | Amarande | tem: I've heard he won't phase if there are only 2 party members alive |
| 08:29.34 | nevcairiel | Wobin, no, nothing |
| 08:29.37 | Amarande | one trick I've read about is to let three people die |
| 08:29.45 | Amarande | at least, between the first and when the 2nd phase would start |
| 08:29.49 | Amarande | and then the 2 remaining zerg him down |
| 08:29.54 | nevcairiel | we only ever exploited two bosses for the achievements |
| 08:30.05 | nevcairiel | that guy in old kingdom, and that transform guy in gundrak |
| 08:30.07 | tem | the other exploit I missed was the Less Rabi one |
| 08:30.07 | Amarande | some achievements are actually stupidly easy if you die |
| 08:30.13 | nevcairiel | yeah that :P |
| 08:30.17 | Wobin | how did you exploite lessrabi? |
| 08:30.17 | tem | oh man, fuck you, nevcairiel |
| 08:30.23 | Wobin | cause that's a BASTARD to get |
| 08:30.26 | tem | I had to do that the "right way" |
| 08:30.27 | Amarande | how do you do lessrabi now? |
| 08:30.33 | Wobin | well timed interrupts |
| 08:30.33 | tem | Wobin, I've done it 2 ways now |
| 08:30.46 | nevcairiel | Wobin, you aggro'ed him with a rogue or so, and run up the stairs to the instance exit |
| 08:30.46 | Wobin | and massive dps |
| 08:30.48 | Amarande | I did H Gundrak with a really competent group the other night and we had no problems with the boss, but still couldn't get the ach |
| 08:30.49 | tem | 1) Abuse FoK interrupts (no longer possible) |
| 08:30.51 | Bruners | all dps and hope to be lucky |
| 08:31.03 | Amarande | we missed what the eck, too, but that was just because I don't think eck lived long enough to eck us up |
| 08:31.09 | tem | 2) use a mage to interrupt the third transform |
| 08:31.14 | Bruners | have missed it the last 0.1s |
| 08:31.15 | nevcairiel | Wobin, he transforms already, and comes back in his transformed form .. so you engage him on his way back, and he cant transform anymore .. so you win :P |
| 08:31.16 | Amarande | we did get snakes why did it have to be snakes, though |
| 08:31.16 | tem | 3) use a shaman to interrupt ALL of them |
| 08:31.29 | Wobin | nevcairiel... that's -terrible- |
| 08:31.38 | Bruners | with enough dps you just need one intertupt |
| 08:31.48 | Amarande | apparently, the dirty trick for Snakes, why did it have to be Snakes? still works |
| 08:31.55 | nevcairiel | Wobin, yeah well, back in the day it was damn hard to get him the right way |
| 08:32.04 | Wobin | nevcairiel, it still is =) |
| 08:32.04 | Amarande | you kill the drakkari colossus, kite what's his name back to where you fought said colossus, snakes never show up |
| 08:32.06 | Bruners | with enogh dps snakes one isnt hard either |
| 08:32.06 | tem | I did it the "right way" |
| 08:32.24 | tem | used a mage to give us 8 seconds at the third cast |
| 08:32.27 | tem | + heroism |
| 08:32.35 | nevcairiel | anomalous was also fun, like every other boss you just solve by kiting |
| 08:32.49 | tem | anomalous? |
| 08:32.49 | Amarande | tem: any chance of configgling the group for lessrabi so there's room for a warlock? |
| 08:32.52 | tem | oh Chaos Theory |
| 08:33.02 | nevcairiel | whatever his name is spelled |
| 08:33.04 | Wobin | Amarande, mage and shammy |
| 08:33.07 | tem | Amarande, absolutely |
| 08:33.13 | nevcairiel | we wiped so long on him, until we just kited :P |
| 08:33.28 | Amarande | I think we wiped about 2 or 3 times on anomalus before getting the ach |
| 08:33.34 | tem | tank, melee dps, healer (preferably a shaman), mage, random dps |
| 08:33.37 | Amarande | that was a strange group, too ... we had like 3 pallies and 2 warlocks |
| 08:33.42 | Wobin | where random dps == warlock |
| 08:33.44 | Amarande | warlocks seem to be coming out of the woodwork like mad lately |
| 08:33.53 | Amarande | I've had at least two, maybe three heroics lately where ALL the dps were locks |
| 08:34.56 | Amarande | think that was our group for hol and gundrak the other night, particularly |
| 08:35.01 | Amarande | I'm kicking myself now. |
| 08:35.08 | Amarande | we might have had a slight shot at lessrabi, come to think of it |
| 08:35.11 | Amarande | the healer WAS a shaman |
| 08:35.27 | Amarande | but meh, probably not, not with his internets, we were just lucky we didn't wipe more often because he was having trouble with not DCing |
| 08:35.44 | Wobin | you don't want the healer interrupting except as a backup |
| 08:35.52 | Amarande | we started hol off on so the wrong foot ... got in, cleared out a bit down the ramp, shaman set up his totems |
| 08:35.57 | Wobin | cause they're usually too busy to keep an eye on things that closely |
| 08:35.58 | Amarande | then he DCs, bjarngrim aggros on the totems and we wipe |
| 08:36.06 | Amarande | I swear, I have more bad luck with bjarngrim than any other heroic boss :| |
| 08:36.39 | Wobin | best layout would probably be mage, dps shammy plus associated |
| 08:36.42 | Amarande | I've got the ach for him, but also have wiped more times on him than anyone else |
| 08:36.45 | tem | So, the "easy" way I hear nowadays is to use a shaman with the talent that reduces shock cooldowns to 5 seconds |
| 08:36.55 | tem | aparently the cast is very precicely timed in this way: |
| 08:37.05 | tem | the first 2 casts are 10 seconds apart |
| 08:37.09 | Wobin | (you still have to not fail, though) |
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| 08:37.21 | tem | and eveery cast after that occurrs 5s later |
| 08:37.49 | Amarande | so anyway I need to do aoa to finish my zul'drak achievement ... with good DPS at 80 do you still need both tank and healer or will one or the other do like with Coren? |
| 08:38.04 | tem | so with the 5s cooldown shock, you start mashing the shock button when he casts the first one and don't stop |
| 08:38.12 | Wobin | you'd want a tank and healer |
| 08:38.19 | tem | OH SHIT. does the shock cooldown talent affect wind shear? |
| 08:38.26 | Wobin | tem, you also want no latency =) |
| 08:38.33 | Wobin | tem, -that- I don't know |
| 08:38.49 | Amarande | tem: i'm assuming that you can't stun him with your warrior tank doing stuff like shield bash? |
| 08:38.53 | Wobin | http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=57994#modified-by |
| 08:38.59 | Wobin | it's modified by the glyph, it seems |
| 08:39.07 | Wobin | oh wait |
| 08:39.10 | Wobin | that's not what we're after |
| 08:39.22 | Amarande | (although I'm foggy on what ability requires what stance so even if you can stun him I'm not sure if that's a good thing for a tank to do) |
| 08:39.30 | Wobin | ah, apparently it does, tem |
| 08:39.39 | tem | it does |
| 08:39.42 | tem | I just found the talent |
| 08:39.55 | tem | Wobin, your latency doesn't matter as long as its consisten |
| 08:40.01 | tem | consistent |
| 08:40.11 | Wobin | hehe consistant latency |
| 08:40.15 | Wobin | what a dream =P |
| 08:40.19 | tem | you "calibrate" the boss with your first cast |
| 08:41.57 | Bruners | with decent dps you should only need one interupt |
| 08:42.43 | Bruners | everyone should do dammage even the healer |
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| 08:46.58 | Grum | Amarande; that one is still the worst one to do |
| 08:47.23 | Grum | afaik the best way was to have a mage succesfully use silence so the guy cant cast it for ~6s orso |
| 08:47.27 | Grum | and then kill it in that time |
| 08:47.57 | Amarande | Glah. I swear dailies are designed to make you irritated for not picking them all up at once and then going around and doing them. |
| 08:48.06 | Amarande | "An Elemental Armor Scrap can be found on any Northrend Revenant." |
| 08:48.23 | Grum | that one is really close, caves in dragonblight (north) |
| 08:48.23 | Amarande | YOU COULD HAVE TOLD ME THIS WHEN I WAS DOING THAT FRENZYHEART QUEST, MR. DALARAN JC GUY. |
| 08:48.37 | Amarande | seeing as, well yeah |
| 08:48.47 | Amarande | one of today's frenzyheart dailies WAS the one where you go up NW and kill revenants. *sigh* |
| 08:48.57 | Amarande | ah well, I can pick it up when I'm doing my sons of hodir dailies probably |
| 08:49.07 | Amarande | or there. |
| 08:49.42 | Grum | dont you just hate dailies? :D |
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| 09:27.49 | tem | I haven't actually used XML in ages. Are there any decent free editors that have similar featuresets to XMLSpy? |
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| 09:35.28 | zenzelezz | so overnight my computer seems to have decided to stop working. Doesn't sound as if it gets to POST, the videocard fan doesn't tune down like it normally does, no output on the monitors |
| 09:35.55 | zenzelezz | having unplugged all HDDs, DVD-ROM, extra fans and videocard, the CPU fan still has trouble starting to spin |
| 09:36.19 | zenzelezz | guessing somehow the PSU keeled over and died :-/ |
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| 09:37.47 | zenzelezz | at least I'm hoping that's the case... otherwise the only other likely source seems to be the motherboard |
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| 09:56.23 | Amarande | and another blue bites the dust |
| 09:56.31 | Amarande | only blues I have left now are boots, shoulders, wand and trinkies |
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| 10:02.24 | zenzelezz | times change, but I still have fond feelings for my Styleen's Impeding Scarab |
| 10:02.27 | Amarande | and I have my bronze drake |
| 10:02.28 | Amarande | btw |
| 10:02.31 | zenzelezz | grats |
| 10:02.38 | Amarande | are you supposed to only have like 1 minute to spare even on the best of successful runs? |
| 10:02.42 | Fisker | hey zenzelezz |
| 10:02.46 | zenzelezz | hey Fisker |
| 10:02.54 | Amarande | we were pulling out like every stop and still it eats like 2-3 minutes at least with arthas being slow and pauses between waves |
| 10:02.57 | Fisker | no! |
| 10:03.45 | Mikk | Eh no you can easily have a lot more time than that |
| 10:04.08 | Mikk | I think I usually have ~7 minutes left or so? |
| 10:04.35 | Mikk | Just throw more dps at the problem |
| 10:05.00 | Amarande | maybe people wasted too much time looting |
| 10:05.07 | Mikk | I mean there's a distinct difference between people going in in blues and substandard specs and doing 2k dps |
| 10:05.15 | Mikk | And going in in epics and doing 4k |
| 10:05.15 | Amarande | arthas also took like forever to come to town hall at that point, too |
| 10:05.18 | Mikk | Things kinda die twice as fast |
| 10:05.53 | Amarande | thankfully, we were able to get it at the last minute, I remember blasting away with like 4.3k at Corruptor |
| 10:06.31 | Mikk | The ending gauntlet is where you can really shave time off with a skilled tank |
| 10:06.41 | Mikk | That just keeps pulling AND keeping aggro |
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| 11:23.26 | Amarande | GODDAMNIT |
| 11:23.36 | Amarande | like ... apparently the last couple days 2 fairly decent sized guilds transferred over |
| 11:23.44 | Amarande | and totally SCREWED UP the price on titanium |
| 11:23.47 | Amarande | it's like 4x what it used to be |
| 11:26.58 | Amarande | 30g for a titanium bar. not a titansteel bar. a *regular freaking titanium bar*. |
| 11:34.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Cody_ (i=cody@lilly.csoft.net) |
| 11:44.13 | industrial | this is a generic regular expression question: How do I match 'not this range of characters' eg [a-zA-Z0-9] but negated. [^a-z] matches chars not a, - or z. |
| 11:45.04 | nevcairiel | then your regex parser is really broken :P |
| 11:45.34 | industrial | really? it's supposed to negate groups too? I thought it never did :\ |
| 11:46.14 | nevcairiel | it works for all classes |
| 11:52.58 | tem | lua> ("abcdefg"):match("([^a-d])") |
| 11:52.59 | lua_bot | tem: e |
| 11:53.13 | tem | lua> ("abcdefg"):match("([^a-d]*)") |
| 11:53.14 | lua_bot | tem: No output |
| 11:53.24 | tem | lua> ("abcdefg"):match("([^a-d]+)") |
| 11:53.24 | lua_bot | tem: efg |
| 11:53.39 | nevcairiel | why did * not work o.O |
| 11:54.04 | tem | it matched it as a 0 repetition |
| 11:54.19 | tem | occurring probably before "a" |
| 11:54.20 | nevcairiel | regex should always try for the longest match possible |
| 11:54.32 | tem | but it'll also go for the first one it finds |
| 11:54.47 | industrial | nevcairiel: unless specified with eg - quantifier |
| 11:54.59 | nevcairiel | we had a * :P |
| 11:55.14 | nevcairiel | i wonder if regex behaves the same |
| 11:55.19 | tem | and since I didn't tell it to find something before the string of not a-d, it found a 0-length string immediately and decided it was good enough |
| 11:56.34 | Arrowmaster | lua> ("abcdefg"):match("[^a-d]*") |
| 11:56.35 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: No output |
| 11:57.07 | Arrowmaster | lua> ("abcdefg"):find("[^a-d]*") |
| 11:57.08 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: 1, 0 |
| 11:57.22 | Arrowmaster | thats so messed up |
| 11:57.57 | Mikk | why |
| 11:57.58 | tem | lua> ("abcdefg"):match("[a-d]*([^a-d]+)") |
| 11:57.58 | lua_bot | tem: efg |
| 11:58.04 | tem | lua> ("abcdefg"):match("[a-d]*([^a-d]*)") |
| 11:58.05 | lua_bot | tem: efg |
| 11:58.26 | tem | the star set includes the empty string |
| 11:58.30 | tem | that's not that complex |
| 11:58.34 | Mikk | nop |
| 11:58.41 | nevcairiel | apparently the first match supercedes the longest-match rule |
| 11:58.57 | Arrowmaster | oh |
| 11:59.01 | Arrowmaster | i know why |
| 11:59.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper (n=Spellsha@dslb-084-057-247-030.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 11:59.34 | Arrowmaster | lua> ("abcdefg"):find("([^a-d%z]*)") |
| 11:59.34 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: 1, 0, |
| 11:59.42 | Arrowmaster | lua> ("abcdefg"):find("([^a-d%z%s]*)") |
| 11:59.43 | lua_bot | Arrowmaster: 1, 0, |
| 11:59.46 | Arrowmaster | wtf |
| 11:59.49 | nevcairiel | you can't exclude the empty string |
| 11:59.59 | nevcairiel | * allows 0 repitions |
| 12:00.13 | nevcairiel | so use + if you don't want that |
| 12:00.22 | Arrowmaster | you can match the start of the string |
| 12:00.25 | Arrowmaster | ive done it before |
| 12:00.41 | nevcairiel | ^ <-- start |
| 12:00.42 | Arrowmaster | this has nothing to do with * going for zero before longest |
| 12:00.53 | Arrowmaster | no ive done it with the frontier pattern |
| 12:01.07 | nevcairiel | you didn't use a frontier pattern up there :P |
| 12:01.12 | Arrowmaster | i know that |
| 12:01.38 | Arrowmaster | but the start and end of the string count as both %z and %s |
| 12:01.47 | Arrowmaster | its weird |
| 12:01.54 | Mikk | %z is \000 |
| 12:02.07 | Arrowmaster | yeah but you cant type \000 |
| 12:02.11 | Mikk | nods |
| 12:02.19 | Mikk | so why are you even including \000 ? |
| 12:02.22 | Mikk | er |
| 12:02.23 | Mikk | %z |
| 12:02.44 | Arrowmaster | you cant type \000 in the pattern but you can use \000 in a string normally |
| 12:02.45 | Mikk | that character isn't even in the abcdefg set, nor is the classical end-of-string C \000 going to get looked at |
| 12:02.55 | tem | speaking of backslashes, I can't fucking stand commercials that say "backslash" in a url when they clearly mean just a normal forward slash |
| 12:03.08 | Mikk | snork |
| 12:03.19 | tem | PS, why even give out a URL like that in a commercial? |
| 12:03.31 | tem | if you really want people to go to your damn website, send them to your home page |
| 12:03.37 | tem | they will not remember anything deeper than that |
| 12:04.40 | Mikk | sometimes they'll do blah.com/campaign |
| 12:04.53 | tem | yeah, it's still dumb |
| 12:05.17 | Mikk | well they've got to try and gauge the effectiveness of their ads somehow |
| 12:06.02 | tem | well, I guess if you want the illusion of a page being highly accessible, but you don't _really_ want that many people to go there, you could do it like that |
| 12:06.07 | tem | say if you were doing a contest |
| 12:06.34 | tem | (and you're an evil corporation that just wants the publicity and not the giving away stuff part) |
| 12:08.27 | Arrowmaster | or they are fucking idiots and use a myspace page |
| 12:08.41 | Arrowmaster | ive seen movies with official websites being myspace pages |
| 12:11.41 | tem | brilliant |
| 12:13.09 | Fisker | slaps Arrowmaster around a bit with a large trout |
| 12:13.58 | Fisker | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=11030914468&sid=1 |
| 12:14.04 | Fisker | le lol |
| 12:18.58 | Wobin | at least he waited a few days before bumping it =) |
| 12:25.28 | Jerub | did those wave invites come through? |
| 12:28.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@host86-147-210-155.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) |
| 12:40.23 | Tepel | Fisker: a bug is a bug |
| 12:40.48 | Tepel | They still haven't fixed Feint proccing poisons either |
| 12:41.20 | Tepel | How does that even work, a feint proccing poison |
| 12:41.35 | Tepel | Maybe it dripped on the guy |
| 12:44.52 | Wobin | Jerub, You got more spare? =) |
| 12:45.12 | Wobin | Tepel, Well you feint with one hand, then jab them with the other |
| 12:45.44 | Tepel | Right, so feint is a DW attack then? |
| 12:46.16 | Wobin | not necessarily |
| 12:46.26 | Tepel | But no, it procs the MH poison |
| 12:46.30 | Wobin | could be an open hand doing the feinting |
| 12:47.02 | Wobin | "something feigned; specifically : a mock blow or attack on or toward one part in order to distract attention from the point one really intends to attack" |
| 12:47.15 | Wobin | so why can't you feint with the offhand |
| 12:48.37 | Arrowmaster | feint is really a bad name for that ability |
| 12:49.00 | Fisker | not yet Jerub :( |
| 12:49.20 | Fisker | Tepel i wasn't making fun at the bug |
| 12:49.33 | Fisker | just merely that guilds used it as a recruitment tool |
| 12:49.41 | Tepel | That's sad |
| 12:49.46 | Tepel | I've never heard of that being used |
| 12:49.54 | Tepel | In fact, I hardly ever use flasks myself :P |
| 12:51.50 | Bruners | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loi-cTSQy2Q me likes |
| 12:52.10 | industrial | Fisker: do realize you are talking to a man named nipple. |
| 12:52.41 | industrial | :P |
| 12:53.12 | Wobin | Bruners, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ1HKCYJM5U&feature=related |
| 12:57.46 | Fisker | i fart you in the face industrial |
| 13:01.16 | Bruners | strikes a match and lights Fisker's fart |
| 13:05.12 | industrial | crits Fisker for over 9000 |
| 13:07.15 | mikma | boom |
| 13:09.51 | Fisker | FUCK YEAH Jerub |
| 13:09.58 | Fisker | my Inbox changed to Inbox (1) |
| 13:10.17 | mikma | gz |
| 13:10.20 | Fisker | © VIAGRA ® Official. October 75% 0FF on Pfizer ! |
| 13:10.22 | Fisker | ;_; |
| 13:11.12 | industrial | Fisker: I'll be expecting your mail then |
| 13:12.33 | Fisker | :? |
| 13:13.48 | industrial | wave :p |
| 13:14.44 | Fisker | © VIAGRA ® Official. October 75% 0FF on Pfizer ! |
| 13:14.46 | Fisker | ^^ |
| 13:16.15 | mikma | cool deal, you should take it fister |
| 13:17.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 13:26.48 | Fisker | i love you mikma |
| 13:29.15 | *** join/#wowuidev harl8490 (i=harl@dslb-088-076-042-034.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:29.40 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (i=harl@dslb-088-076-042-034.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:30.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Srosh (n=Srosh@c209209.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 13:36.41 | zenzelezz | "In a really pathetic display, Nvidia actually faked the introduction of its latest video card, because it simply doesn't have boards to show. Why? Because it didn't get enough parts to properly bring them up, much less make demo boards" |
| 13:37.29 | Shirik | Not the first time I've heard of something like that |
| 13:38.22 | zenzelezz | true |
| 13:38.31 | zenzelezz | but it sounds weird to use wood screws on a video card |
| 13:38.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Kazie (n=Kazie@port207.ds1-vg.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 13:39.06 | Shirik | ... huh? |
| 13:40.51 | zenzelezz | http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/10/03/0440230/Nvidia-Fakes-Fermi-Boards-At-GPU-Tech-Conference?art_pos=2 |
| 13:42.02 | Shirik | I don't see the problem |
| 13:42.24 | Shirik | this sounds like someone being all "lol look at nvidia" without having any knowledge about how to engineer something like this |
| 13:42.50 | Shirik | and I would visit the news site, but it appears it's been slashdotted |
| 13:43.13 | *** join/#wowuidev nuoHep (n=nuoHep@89.222.156.36) |
| 13:51.08 | Crucifor1er | anyone know of an addon that uses custom scrollbars and not the standard blizzard one? I am trying to make a thin (only 8 pixels wide, no top and bottom scroll buttons) scrollbar and having a hell of a time. |
| 13:52.51 | Shirik | jnwhiteh, you around? |
| 13:53.27 | Fisker | durrr zenzelezz |
| 13:53.31 | Fisker | they obviously had demo boards |
| 13:53.38 | Fisker | but they were engineering samples |
| 13:53.48 | Fisker | not exactly material for the PR |
| 13:54.20 | Shirik | You should see what the "engineering sample" of a plane looks like :) |
| 13:54.25 | Shirik | it's um.... |
| 13:54.31 | Shirik | quite different |
| 13:54.42 | Fisker | ;o |
| 13:55.00 | Fisker | also whats up with the late news |
| 13:55.09 | Fisker | it was quite obvious from the shots they released on day one |
| 13:58.07 | zenzelezz | Shirik: the article is quite amusing; the guy either is a real ATi fanboi or just really has it in for nVidia |
| 13:58.13 | Shirik | yeah |
| 13:58.18 | Shirik | that's what I judge |
| 13:59.14 | zenzelezz | and while I accept that it may be commonplace to do this for stuff that's simply for display, it does look really weird when he points out (what seems like) genuine flaws (had it been meant to be a functioning board and not just for display= |
| 14:00.34 | Adys | http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1391127&cid=29626089 |
| 14:00.45 | Adys | also wow |
| 14:00.53 | Adys | how come i link this just after you guys talk about it :( |
| 14:01.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Kazie (n=Kazie@port207.ds1-vg.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 14:01.30 | Adys | anyway |
| 14:01.31 | Adys | http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15798/34/ |
| 14:02.28 | Crucifor1er | Im trying to decide if I should get two 295's or wait for the 300 series cards |
| 14:02.37 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 14:02.37 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 14:02.43 | Adys | waity |
| 14:02.45 | Adys | -y |
| 14:03.12 | Cruciformer | if ATI had single-pcb versions of the 5870 Id go for those. |
| 14:03.13 | zenzelezz | "The real engineering sample card is full of dangling wires. Basically, it looks like an octopus of modules and wires" |
| 14:03.21 | zenzelezz | that would have been so much cooler to look at \o/ |
| 14:04.00 | Cruciformer | I need to watercool my video cards so that I can make them occupt only 1 pci-e slot |
| 14:04.18 | Cruciformer | so I cant use the 5870 which I would otherwise like to |
| 14:05.08 | nevcairiel | you could just get a mobo that has the slots more spread out and better allows double slot things =p |
| 14:05.36 | Cruciformer | anyay since we have a few new people signed on i'll reask the question. Does anyone know of an addon that uses custom scrollbars and not eh blizzard ones? I want to create a very thin (8 px) scroll bar with no buttons just a visual indicator that stuff has been scrolled |
| 14:05.56 | Cruciformer | nevcairiel: doesn't exist, and I have looked. they all sacrifice some slots and I need them all |
| 14:06.07 | nevcairiel | cut down on some hardware, then! :) |
| 14:06.17 | nevcairiel | quad-sli is overrated :P |
| 14:06.17 | Cruciformer | nevcairiel: I have 2 pci-e video cards, a pci-e raid card and 2 audio cards. I need every slot I can get. |
| 14:06.31 | zenzelezz | why two audio cards? |
| 14:06.46 | Cruciformer | I dont even sli at all, I use one card for each monitor (2560x1900 displays) |
| 14:06.48 | Shirik | zenzelezz: Problem is, it would also be much harder to present |
| 14:06.57 | Shirik | with things like that it's generally not a good idea to move it :) |
| 14:06.59 | Cruciformer | zenzelezz: One for game audio one for pro audio |
| 14:07.11 | zenzelezz | Shirik: I wasn't talking about practicality, I just said I would have found it cooler to look at |
| 14:07.12 | nevcairiel | every onboard card is good enough for gaming |
| 14:07.35 | Cruciformer | that would solve my problem for 1 video card then, I still have the other. |
| 14:09.38 | Cruciformer | I personally think it is very bad form for a card to occupy two slots. |
| 14:10.01 | nevcairiel | join nvidia or amd and design them thinner :D |
| 14:10.13 | Fisker | we need performance |
| 14:10.20 | Cruciformer | ya thats a practical consideration :P |
| 14:11.23 | Cruciformer | fisker: You can get all teh performance u need on a single pcb card, its the huge fans they strap on teh sides. There are other ways they could cool them. |
| 14:12.01 | Fisker | Yeah without being overly expensive or requiring complex setups |
| 14:12.09 | nevcairiel | put heat pipes on that move the heat to the outside of the case, and add fans there :P |
| 14:12.20 | Cruciformer | nevcairiel: bingo |
| 14:12.27 | nevcairiel | thats totally unfeasible |
| 14:12.53 | Fisker | Even if they would do that you would have the heatpipes go through a second slot |
| 14:13.08 | Fisker | i.e. STILL making it a dual-slot solution |
| 14:13.35 | Cruciformer | they can go through teh bottom of the card dont need a second slot |
| 14:13.50 | Fisker | if you still want connectors then yeah you do |
| 14:14.24 | Cruciformer | anyway water cooling is clearly the way to go. if you want a certain level of performance, put up with the headaches of cooling. simple. |
| 14:14.45 | Cruciformer | but making a single board occupy two slots is very uncool (no punb intended) |
| 14:14.49 | Fisker | if you want a certain level of cooling, put up with the headaches of cooling. simple. |
| 14:14.49 | nevcairiel | for extreme performance, but mainstream doesnt want that =p |
| 14:15.06 | nevcairiel | if you need an extreme setup, its your headache to deal with |
| 14:15.42 | Cruciformer | actually my setup isnt exreme at all. I have 5 cards, the motherboard has 6 slots. shouldnt be a problem. |
| 14:16.15 | Fisker | then get a non-reference card or deal with it yoursefl |
| 14:16.19 | Fisker | yourself* |
| 14:16.29 | Cruciformer | I am fisker. |
| 14:16.47 | Fisker | then don't tell us to deal with it :o |
| 14:16.59 | Cruciformer | I didnt. Go play with your trout. |
| 14:17.20 | Fisker | [16:14:21] <Cruciformer> anyway water cooling is clearly the way to go. if you want a certain level of performance, put up with the headaches of cooling. simple. |
| 14:17.41 | Cruciformer | how is that tell YOU to deal with my cooling issues? |
| 14:17.47 | nevcairiel | Anyway, cooling the mainstream cards with a fan only using one slot is not easily possible, so its two slots. If you buy those cards, you know what you get into, so its clearly your headache :D |
| 14:17.53 | Cruciformer | do you spiek-a-da-eengrisch? |
| 14:18.01 | Fisker | by saying they should use a different method of cooling if you want performance |
| 14:18.03 | nevcairiel | You could get low-end cards that come with 1-slot-cooliong :P |
| 14:18.15 | Fisker | in reality those 2 are not related as only adequate cooling is nessecary for performance |
| 14:18.24 | Fisker | anything above that would be your own problem, not mine |
| 14:18.57 | Cruciformer | meh the 295 comes in a single PCB version that with a waterblock still only uses 1 slot. |
| 14:19.20 | nevcairiel | so buy it =p |
| 14:19.46 | Cruciformer | that was what I was considering ... getting back to the original statement of should I get the 295's or wait for the 300's :P |
| 14:20.05 | Cruciformer | u guys are being obtuse today |
| 14:21.35 | zenzelezz | Adys was very quick about saying "wait" |
| 14:22.40 | Cruciformer | yes, he was. I then broadened the conversation a wee bit to talk about the ati 5870, but that comes with cooling issues (for me) Clearly broadening thediscussion was a cardinal sin. |
| 14:23.12 | Mikk | The main problem being fisker being in the channel |
| 14:23.24 | Shirik | ^ |
| 14:23.37 | Cruciformer | heh Mikk :) |
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| 14:36.54 | *** join/#wowuidev nuoHep` (n=nuoHep@89.222.156.36) |
| 14:40.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Proditor (n=Proditor@c80-217-101-141.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 14:53.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-67-246-40-12.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 14:53.17 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 14:56.59 | Shirik | tackles Lopeppeppy |
| 14:57.11 | Lopeppeppy | Morning, Shirik! |
| 14:57.46 | amro | any idea why someone would do this? deltalength = sqrt(delta*delta); |
| 14:58.33 | amro | oops nevermind |
| 15:00.39 | Lopeppeppy | I have a wooooot! My kitty is out of the kennel and the cone of shame! |
| 15:06.01 | Shirik | you know what's fun? |
| 15:06.09 | Shirik | Computing square roots with only adds and subtracts |
| 15:07.24 | Shirik | and shifts* |
| 15:07.26 | Mikk | no |
| 15:07.28 | Lopeppeppy | That is Not Fun. Silly code monkey... |
| 15:07.35 | Mikk | he's a VERY silly code monkey |
| 15:07.42 | Mikk | i am a code monkey and i dont think it's fun |
| 15:08.02 | Shirik | lol |
| 15:08.06 | Shirik | It's what we had to do last week |
| 15:08.11 | Shirik | for my FPGA class |
| 15:08.23 | Lopeppeppy | contract for your professor, I'd do the hit |
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| 15:15.37 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 15:21.02 | *** join/#wowuidev mendel-de (n=mendel@wikia/M.mendel) |
| 15:24.18 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 15:25.05 | zenzelezz | well now... took our RAM bricks, disconnected all HDDs and DVD-ROM, took out the video card, disconnected case fans; basically leaving just the CPU + CPU fan on the motherboard... still doesn't make it to POST or make any warning sounds |
| 15:25.15 | zenzelezz | looks like something killed the motherboard overnight |
| 15:25.43 | foxlit | *geometry crits foxlit for a lot of damage* |
| 15:25.50 | zenzelezz | if nothing else, I now have an excuse to upgrade |
| 15:26.45 | foxlit | Clearly, finding the intersection of two lines in 2d space is hard. |
| 15:27.35 | zenzelezz | indeed |
| 15:28.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Aelobin (n=Aelobin@85.210.221.75) |
| 15:28.38 | Shirik | foxlit: I've already done that |
| 15:28.40 | Shirik | if you want the code |
| 15:28.45 | Shirik | I use it for my speedway addon |
| 15:29.02 | foxlit | Shirik: nah, I could've used it a couple of hours ago. |
| 15:29.07 | Shirik | :( sorry |
| 15:29.16 | foxlit | It also comes to mind that it should be trivial to derive. |
| 15:29.25 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 15:29.26 | Fisker | slaps zenzelezz around a bit with a large trout |
| 15:29.28 | Fisker | slaps foxlit around a bit with a large trout |
| 15:29.28 | Shirik | it's actually a more complex problem than you would think |
| 15:29.31 | Fisker | you |
| 15:29.34 | foxlit | (I have two points and two direction vectors, the question is where the intersection is) |
| 15:29.54 | foxlit | The lines happen to be perpendicular. |
| 15:30.09 | Shirik | well that makes it a little easier |
| 15:30.35 | foxlit | Really? |
| 15:30.42 | Shirik | sure |
| 15:30.49 | Shirik | trigonometry loves right angles |
| 15:30.52 | mikma | scytheblade1: so, what's this "early access to demo" in l4d2? |
| 15:30.58 | foxlit | I ended up with some sin solution. |
| 15:32.09 | Shirik | actually |
| 15:32.11 | zenzelezz | looks like the motherboard survived two years almost to the day |
| 15:32.12 | Shirik | I used no trigonometry foxlit |
| 15:32.17 | foxlit | But it seems to me that you could reduce the two lines to y = a + b * x; then add them up and solve for y = 0 |
| 15:32.29 | foxlit | (and by add them up I mean find the difference) |
| 15:33.08 | mikma | http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=505895c166632da128ed995beb1d7e53&t=980241 <- i LOVE the sensoring :D |
| 15:33.33 | zenzelezz | mikma: haha |
| 15:33.37 | Shirik | foxlit: http://wowi.pastey.net/126027-27mi |
| 15:33.59 | mendel-de | convert one line into normal form, use that to find teh distance of teh other point to that line, and then add distance*normal vector to teh other point and you have it |
| 15:34.02 | foxlit | Shirik: yikes! |
| 15:34.28 | mendel-de | but it is probably the same effort, computationally |
| 15:34.38 | Shirik | there's something slightly wrong with the comment though foxlit |
| 15:37.26 | Shirik | oh yeah |
| 15:37.29 | Shirik | I think it's that |
| 15:38.17 | Shirik | x=x1 + (ua or ub)(x2 - x1) should actually be x = x1 + ua(x2 - x1) or x2 + ub(x1 - x2) |
| 15:38.21 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 15:38.24 | Shirik | something like that |
| 15:38.37 | *** join/#wowuidev pompy (n=Mike@c-68-38-45-3.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 15:38.44 | Shirik | I didn't bother going back to fix the comment sadly :( |
| 15:44.40 | zenzelezz | for an Intel-based motherboard, anyone have a strong opinion about Gigabyte vs. Asus motherboards? |
| 15:44.48 | Shirik | I have had horrible luck with Gigabyte |
| 15:44.51 | Shirik | that's about all I can say |
| 15:44.54 | Shirik | Asus has done me well |
| 15:45.02 | End | My Asus board sucked |
| 15:45.15 | nevcairiel | I had both good experience with asus and gigabyte tbh |
| 15:45.20 | End | but that was like 6 years ago |
| 15:45.21 | Shirik | in fact, my server is still running my Asus A8N32-SLI :P |
| 15:45.24 | zenzelezz | I wish I could still use Epox, always loved those |
| 15:45.24 | nevcairiel | on a gigabyte right now, asua before that |
| 15:45.26 | Shirik | whichc is quite old now |
| 15:45.32 | Shirik | and still functioning perfectly |
| 15:45.37 | Cide- | hi shirik! |
| 15:45.38 | zenzelezz | my Gigabyte motherboard did me well up until today when it, you know, died... |
| 15:45.39 | nevcairiel | I loved my EPox back in the day |
| 15:45.40 | Cide- | I miss you |
| 15:45.42 | Shirik | hi Cide-! |
| 15:45.46 | Shirik | I have been very busy :( |
| 15:45.54 | nevcairiel | what was that .. my Athlon TB i think? |
| 15:45.58 | nevcairiel | a long time ago! |
| 15:46.03 | zenzelezz | hehe, yeah |
| 15:46.48 | zenzelezz | I used Epox from I got my first computer (AMD K6-2 450 MHz) through first-generation socket Athlon, TB, Palomino... think it was after that I couldn't find them anymore |
| 15:46.55 | zenzelezz | they just quietly vanished |
| 15:47.22 | Lopeppeppy | My last mb was Asus, my current is a Gigabyte. They just do what they do, as far as I can tell, neither one has ever had a failure for me. |
| 15:47.57 | zenzelezz | when things do go wrong during booting, I really miss the Epox's hex digit display |
| 15:50.52 | Shirik | "IPB3 will do SSL for the public forum login, but not for the ACP. The reason is that most people don't check to see if their server supports SSL before enabling the option, and if they turn it on and their server does not support SSL, then they wouldn't be able to access the ACP to disable it again, and would be locked out with their forum down and no way to bring it back up." |
| 15:50.55 | Shirik | What kind of BS is that |
| 15:51.04 | Shirik | They refuse to let me lock down the admin panel with SSL |
| 15:51.13 | Shirik | because people could be stupid and lock themselves out |
| 15:51.34 | Shadowed | Make it a configuration file flag that can't be set in the ACP itself |
| 15:51.36 | Shadowed | problem solved |
| 15:51.40 | Shirik | I know, seriously |
| 15:51.48 | Shirik | I mean, we had this working forever without any supprot from them at all |
| 15:52.03 | Shirik | until we realized that whenever someone sends an email, it sends the wrong URL |
| 15:52.11 | Shirik | because the board gets confused about what the URL to the forums is |
| 15:52.24 | foxlit | So what's wrong with optional SSL for the admin panel? |
| 15:52.28 | Shirik | so when we asked them how we can fix that, they say "just don't lock down the admin panel" |
| 15:52.47 | foxlit | "You can't do SSL? Fine, send your "ban everyone" requests in plaintext" |
| 15:53.00 | Shirik | well we don't really want optional SSL |
| 15:53.06 | Shirik | our admin panel was locked down with SSL client cert authentication |
| 15:53.26 | Shirik | inc "people actually use that?" |
| 15:53.51 | A-KO | eh nothing wrong with that :P depending on the forum |
| 15:54.05 | foxlit | A little overboard, perhaps |
| 15:54.13 | A-KO | just a little |
| 15:54.24 | Shirik | it keeps out the script kiddies |
| 15:54.55 | Shirik | any kind of customized instance and they'll just turn to another forum |
| 15:55.22 | A-KO | security is only as good as your weakest link :P |
| 15:55.25 | foxlit | So would regular passwords and an attempt limit :) |
| 15:55.36 | Shirik | that wouldn't stop security vulnerabilities |
| 15:55.56 | Shirik | however adding an additional layer of authentication on top of the actual forum software itself will mitigate that |
| 15:56.13 | A-KO | I just always assume vulnerabilities in the client facing software. |
| 15:56.22 | Shirik | ^ |
| 15:56.38 | Shirik | because I'm only locking down the admin panel, I don't consider it an inconvenience |
| 15:56.53 | Shirik | especially considering it's a client cert, which most browsers can do automatically after you specify the cert the first time |
| 15:57.02 | A-KO | but let me guess here. You have A) forum that's accessible by everyone, B) Admin panel that uses SSL authentication on the server end (to identify clients) before it makes a connection and sends them the page. |
| 15:57.18 | Shirik | yes |
| 15:57.19 | A-KO | so being that A is facing by everyone, heavily locking down B is moot :P |
| 15:57.24 | Shirik | not really |
| 15:57.39 | A-KO | because A is more likely to have problems than B |
| 15:57.43 | Shirik | because, while we can assume vulnerabilities in A, we don't want to provide an inconvenience |
| 15:57.47 | Shirik | I disagree |
| 15:57.47 | A-KO | because A accepts far more user submittable data :P |
| 15:57.54 | Shirik | B does much more sensitive things |
| 15:57.57 | A-KO | true |
| 15:58.06 | A-KO | and I'm not saying that having SSL is a bad thing |
| 15:58.10 | Shirik | Besides, a vulnerability in A may lead to someone wanting to get access to admin |
| 15:58.13 | A-KO | but A has lots more inputs for user data :P |
| 15:58.20 | Shirik | true, but it's also more tested imo |
| 15:58.21 | A-KO | yes but a vulnerability in A could mean bypassing B entirely |
| 15:58.36 | Shirik | I accept that as an unmanagable risk :P |
| 15:58.38 | A-KO | lol |
| 15:58.52 | A-KO | fair enough |
| 15:59.01 | Shirik | there's no reason to not lock down B, which you could estimate as having 50% of the vulnerabilities |
| 15:59.21 | Shirik | I can't lock down A because it would be an inconvenience |
| 15:59.22 | Mikk | I'm with Shirik for reasonably low-risk sites |
| 15:59.23 | A-KO | oh no I agree completely. in fact, I don't setup phpmyadmin for any of my users unless they fork over for an SSL certificate for their domain |
| 15:59.32 | Mikk | If we're talking a high-risk environment on the other hand |
| 15:59.36 | Mikk | The stakes change |
| 15:59.37 | A-KO | internet = high risk |
| 15:59.38 | A-KO | :P |
| 15:59.43 | A-KO | internet = highest risk |
| 15:59.54 | Mikk | Bad choice of words |
| 15:59.58 | A-KO | I just assume any network not controlled by me in its entirety = highest risk |
| 16:00.01 | Mikk | "highly sensitive" |
| 16:00.17 | Mikk | You're totally right |
| 16:00.20 | Shirik | Anyway, it's not like A is completely unprotected |
| 16:00.28 | A-KO | and even then my servers/machines don't assume that the local broadcast domain = low risk either :P |
| 16:00.30 | Shirik | it's run by a user which only has access to the files for that site |
| 16:00.51 | Shirik | but that's basic stuff |
| 16:00.57 | Mikk | oh you can be fairly certain there'll be a local root exploit |
| 16:01.11 | Mikk | so if you want to get right down to it: any local access = assume full box access |
| 16:01.17 | Mikk | but then we're getting into "is there anyone that will bother"? |
| 16:01.21 | Shirik | not really what I was going at |
| 16:01.27 | Shirik | I was more of a "arbitrary PHP code" |
| 16:01.30 | nevcairiel | i try to avoid giving out shell access at all if possible |
| 16:01.38 | nevcairiel | local root exploits are too sneaky |
| 16:02.03 | Mikk | well.. history has proven that joe php script has at least umpteen holes |
| 16:02.09 | Mikk | that let an attacker execute arbitrary code |
| 16:02.14 | Shirik | not exactly |
| 16:02.17 | Mikk | and then it doesn't matter if he has "shell access" or not |
| 16:02.27 | A-KO | mpm-itk for the win |
| 16:02.32 | Mikk | So what it boils down to is |
| 16:02.34 | Shirik | they would have to make a call to system(), etc. |
| 16:02.36 | A-KO | having good backups |
| 16:02.41 | A-KO | being able to restore quickly |
| 16:02.41 | Shirik | system("su") is not going to do you much good |
| 16:02.43 | A-KO | in the event of problems |
| 16:02.49 | Shirik | etc. |
| 16:02.56 | A-KO | depending on the environment, chroot jailing if necessary |
| 16:03.02 | Mikk | Shirik: i suggest you read up on SQL injection and buffer overruns |
| 16:03.09 | Shirik | Again, that is all problems with the script |
| 16:03.12 | Shirik | not the environment itself |
| 16:03.18 | Shirik | I am very familiar with security issues |
| 16:03.19 | A-KO | It sucks I can't lock down a deployment I'm doing in the coming weeks :( |
| 16:03.24 | A-KO | our developers are FUCKING AWESOME |
| 16:03.35 | Shirik | I am about to release something to full-disclosure actually which is in fact a buffer overrun |
| 16:03.38 | Mikk | still bulding SQL queries from user-supplied texts eh? |
| 16:03.50 | Shirik | No, anyone with a brain uses prepared statements |
| 16:03.55 | Mikk | @ A-KO |
| 16:04.00 | A-KO | nah Mikk |
| 16:04.41 | Mikk | And yeah A-KO was dead on there. Keep back-ups. Make sure you can restore quickly. You can basically assume that if your system is public access, it can somehow get wtfpwnd. |
| 16:05.09 | Mikk | Unless I wrote it :P |
| 16:05.10 | A-KO | Mikk: unrelated to sql injection, but basically I'm doing a tablet pc deployment in the neighborhood of 20,000 machines, with 1200 site locations each with a site server we're also configuring. I'm trying to firewall all the machines, because even though the wifi is WPA2 and there's only 1 port on the firewall for connectivity, I still don't assume that the network is "safe"....but for cost reasons, we're not centrally managing all the tablets....so I can't |
| 16:05.11 | Mikk | grins |
| 16:05.15 | A-KO | because our devs might change shit |
| 16:05.16 | A-KO | push out a software update |
| 16:05.24 | A-KO | and then we might have to push firewall rules to accompany it, etc. |
| 16:05.28 | A-KO | and it'd just be a massive pita |
| 16:05.36 | Shirik | what is the WoW China site? |
| 16:05.39 | Shirik | anyone know? |
| 16:05.40 | Shirik | google is failing me |
| 16:05.59 | A-KO | honestly, if we were using Vista |
| 16:06.04 | A-KO | I'd just use windows firewall |
| 16:06.07 | A-KO | and ipsec authentication |
| 16:06.12 | nevcairiel | !g world of warcraft china |
| 16:06.13 | batbot | nevcairiel: éå
½ä¸ç <http://www.wowchina.com/> |
| 16:06.15 | A-KO | then it's almost a moot point |
| 16:06.17 | nevcairiel | you are so much fail shirik |
| 16:06.19 | nevcairiel | l2google |
| 16:06.23 | Shirik | that isn't right |
| 16:06.26 | Shirik | at least it doesn't seem right |
| 16:06.43 | nevcairiel | i can't read the freaking message |
| 16:06.46 | nevcairiel | but thats the domain |
| 16:06.49 | A-KO | I thought WoW was sstill unavailable in china |
| 16:06.52 | Shirik | èªä»2005å¹´4æ26æ¥ |
| 16:06.53 | A-KO | I see some long chinese message |
| 16:06.54 | A-KO | that I can't read |
| 16:07.03 | Shirik | That implies to me that it's a message that was written april 26, 2005 |
| 16:07.07 | nevcairiel | at least that used to be the domain |
| 16:07.22 | nevcairiel | wonder if the old company that managed it kept it |
| 16:07.28 | Shirik | ~fail nevcairiel |
| 16:07.29 | purl | nevcairiel: FAIL! |
| 16:07.29 | A-KO | I think so nevcairiel |
| 16:07.31 | A-KO | looks like it to me |
| 16:07.42 | A-KO | and Shirik |
| 16:07.43 | Shirik | next time l2checkb4faildeclaration |
| 16:07.46 | A-KO | the message is 2009 |
| 16:07.56 | zenzelezz | Shirik: the links on it seem to go to The9... |
| 16:07.57 | Shirik | how do you know? |
| 16:07.58 | A-KO | June 6th 2009 |
| 16:08.02 | A-KO | the chinese at the bottom right |
| 16:08.03 | zenzelezz | didn't they take over from Netease? |
| 16:08.07 | zenzelezz | or was it the other way around? |
| 16:08.09 | A-KO | I can read some Japanese :P and the chinese is similar |
| 16:08.17 | nevcairiel | wasnt The9 the old one? |
| 16:08.26 | Lopeppeppy | The Furminator kicks ass. I just groomed a softball sized ball of fur from Rosiekins. My allergies will celebrate. |
| 16:08.27 | zenzelezz | if I remembered I wouldn't be asking |
| 16:08.55 | Mikk | A-KO: umm w2k and up are fairly capable of doing ipsec and not allowing non-ipsec comms? |
| 16:09.06 | zenzelezz | nevcairiel: think you're right, Netease seems to be the new one |
| 16:09.16 | Mikk | then again you'll be using CE I suppose |
| 16:09.20 | Mikk | and i have no clue about that |
| 16:09.32 | Fisker | dials Shirik |
| 16:09.37 | A-KO | Mikk: well no, I don't want ot use IPSec itself, but Windows Firewall in Vista+ can use JUST the authentication component |
| 16:09.40 | A-KO | and not the encryption |
| 16:09.53 | A-KO | so you can still authenticate machines with the IPSec headers but not encrypt the data |
| 16:09.55 | A-KO | which, you know |
| 16:09.59 | A-KO | can be done via SSL anyway so |
| 16:10.28 | Shirik | hm |
| 16:10.30 | Mikk | there's hardly much harm in also encrypting :P |
| 16:10.33 | Shirik | wowwiki goes to wowchina.com too |
| 16:10.33 | nevcairiel | building gcc on a VPS = fail |
| 16:10.42 | nevcairiel | it takes ages <.< |
| 16:10.46 | A-KO | Mikk: except the massive performance loss over a G wifi network |
| 16:10.51 | A-KO | which would cripple the network |
| 16:10.54 | Shirik | nevcairiel: gentoo? |
| 16:10.58 | nevcairiel | yea |
| 16:11.00 | Shirik | <3 |
| 16:11.08 | nevcairiel | i run gentoo everywhere |
| 16:11.08 | Mikk | A-KO: umm are we talking about the increased header size here? |
| 16:11.11 | Shirik | <3 <3 |
| 16:11.13 | nevcairiel | well, except my linux router |
| 16:11.16 | nevcairiel | its like 300mhz |
| 16:11.30 | Shirik | should put QNX on it! |
| 16:11.35 | nevcairiel | i just plugged some firewall-centric distribution on it |
| 16:11.40 | Shirik | fault tolerance, HAM |
| 16:11.56 | nevcairiel | also, my VPS host has an ass-old kernel |
| 16:12.00 | nevcairiel | i should slap them |
| 16:12.18 | Mikk | i mean.. the size diff between AH and ESP headers ain't huge |
| 16:12.31 | Mikk | now if you go full tunnel it grows a bit i agree |
| 16:12.37 | A-KO | Mikk: the encryption and decryption on each end for IPSec is quite costly. I haven't tried it on any modern machines but to p4 tablet PCs it'll probably murder it. I know for a while Intel had the Intel Pro 100S adapters with built-in chips that did the decryption, but even on a 100mbit lan it was only able to get to about 50-60% performance of unencrypted info |
| 16:12.37 | nevcairiel | I should've gotten a VMWare or Xen vServer, those Virtuozzo things are kinda creepy |
| 16:12.37 | Mikk | but iirc windows clients dont do that |
| 16:12.56 | A-KO | nevcairiel: www.linode.com :P |
| 16:13.06 | A-KO | not to plug but I've used them for 2 years |
| 16:13.09 | A-KO | and they just keep upgrading, etc. |
| 16:13.12 | Mikk | uses also |
| 16:13.19 | nevcairiel | virtuozzo hosts are also cheaper <.< |
| 16:13.28 | A-KO | I doubt it's much cheaper than linode :P |
| 16:13.32 | Mikk | nevcairiel: me & clad are sharing a box that needs a 3rd |
| 16:13.36 | Mikk | pokepoke |
| 16:13.54 | A-KO | Shirik: http://i37.tinypic.com/5yciyv.png |
| 16:13.59 | A-KO | 4th character in the circled kanji is a 9 |
| 16:14.04 | A-KO | first is a 2 |
| 16:14.12 | A-KO | 2009 June 6th |
| 16:15.15 | zenzelezz | "Good-bye, dear players! Good-bye, Azeroth's warriors!" |
| 16:15.16 | zenzelezz | did any of you just try hitting "Translate" on Google? |
| 16:15.16 | A-KO | nope :P |
| 16:15.18 | A-KO | who uses that? |
| 16:15.20 | nevcairiel | Mikk, i'm kinda stuck in my contract for still some time :P |
| 16:15.20 | A-KO | I just learn chinese |
| 16:15.23 | A-KO | psh @ google |
| 16:15.28 | A-KO | eww nevcairiel |
| 16:15.29 | A-KO | contract? |
| 16:15.29 | A-KO | wtf |
| 16:15.33 | zenzelezz | A-KO: it did a very good job (as far as I can tell... obviously I don't speak Chinese) |
| 16:15.38 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 16:15.38 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 16:15.46 | A-KO | zenzelezz: I try to sound nerdy and say I can read Kanji though |
| 16:15.47 | A-KO | makes it easier :P |
| 16:15.55 | zenzelezz | :) |
| 16:16.40 | Shirik | A-KO: Don't say Kanji |
| 16:16.43 | A-KO | I know :( |
| 16:16.45 | Shirik | Kanji is Japanese |
| 16:16.48 | A-KO | but I took 2 years of Japanese so |
| 16:16.51 | A-KO | that's what it is to me |
| 16:16.53 | A-KO | :P |
| 16:16.54 | Shirik | :P |
| 16:17.25 | A-KO | it's close enough :P |
| 16:17.34 | Fisker | you |
| 16:18.05 | A-KO | Mikk: At any rate, I have to allow communication and just assume the traffic is coming from trusted hosts......it's fucking terrible, as I don't like doing that. |
| 16:18.21 | Shirik | I have something similar going on |
| 16:18.23 | A-KO | I mean, our WPA2 key is......good, but not OMFG UBER SECURE, and from my perspective I just assume wireless will eventually be broken |
| 16:18.29 | Shirik | I have a build server |
| 16:18.34 | Shirik | that's accessible through the internet |
| 16:18.44 | Shirik | It, quite literally, runs arbitrary code |
| 16:18.52 | Shirik | And I don't really know how secure it is |
| 16:19.01 | Shirik | Fortunately, that's /all/ it does :) |
| 16:19.22 | nevcairiel | A-KO, its only 2 month, because i paid for 3 in advance :P |
| 16:19.36 | Shirik | it doesn't even do the dispatching for build reports or anything. It just builds and runs code and then reports back. |
| 16:19.42 | A-KO | if we were on all vista machines and an AD domain I would just lock them all down and be done with it. It would be a non-issue....but we're on XP on those machines and no AD, atl east not yet |
| 16:19.53 | A-KO | and my company doesn't want to pay for the CALs |
| 16:20.29 | A-KO | I think the more interesting thing is my company is implementing this camera system at each of the locatoins |
| 16:20.36 | A-KO | and they're internet accessible |
| 16:20.37 | A-KO | that is |
| 16:20.40 | A-KO | no vpn, no security |
| 16:20.41 | A-KO | not even SSL |
| 16:20.43 | A-KO | just HTTP |
| 16:20.47 | A-KO | to each location, via dyndns |
| 16:20.52 | Mikk | haha |
| 16:20.53 | Mikk | ow |
| 16:20.55 | A-KO | (this is the camera company that's setting it up, btw) |
| 16:21.20 | A-KO | oh I know |
| 16:21.22 | A-KO | it's bad |
| 16:21.34 | A-KO | thankfully I have NOTHING to do with that project |
| 16:21.37 | A-KO | because I would slap the shit out of them |
| 16:21.45 | A-KO | I'm just handling the systems |
| 16:23.06 | Shirik | so |
| 16:23.12 | Shirik | you're sending out camera data |
| 16:23.14 | Shirik | over the internet |
| 16:23.17 | A-KO | unencrypted |
| 16:23.18 | A-KO | yes |
| 16:23.19 | Shirik | unencrypted? |
| 16:23.20 | A-KO | that's correct |
| 16:23.21 | Shirik | wtf |
| 16:23.23 | A-KO | I agree |
| 16:23.40 | A-KO | I'm not part of that team, it's an entirely different team of people handling it. |
| 16:23.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Vangual (n=bah@pdpc/supporter/active/vangual) |
| 16:23.54 | A-KO | but I've seen kinda sorta how it works |
| 16:23.58 | A-KO | and it's just so bad |
| 16:24.10 | Shirik | I mean, I can understand people kinda ignoring the "Well someone could intercept the stream and then send their own data instead" |
| 16:24.23 | Shirik | but totally unencrypted so anyone can watch... |
| 16:24.36 | A-KO | This is apparently standard procedure for the camera company |
| 16:25.51 | A-KO | from what I'm gathering it's something like http://blahblahblah.dyndns.org and then it downloads its components to the client. Whether or not the client components encrypt the signal, I don't know. |
| 16:26.26 | A-KO | I would like to think so, but given that they're using dyndns as their standard procedure and HTTP on the web connection, I don't think so :P |
| 16:26.37 | Shirik | you know |
| 16:26.42 | Shirik | I'm not sure they're ALLOWED to use dyndns |
| 16:26.47 | Shirik | unless they have some special deal with them |
| 16:27.08 | Shirik | I'm pretty sure their free services are personal use only |
| 16:27.32 | A-KO | I'veo nly been in and out of that room to work on my lab equipment, and that's from what I overheard and saw from the few minutes I spent in there :P |
| 16:27.59 | A-KO | whether or not the http thing was just a proof of concept "hey we can do this, too" or if we're actually going to deploy that, I don't know. |
| 16:28.10 | A-KO | what I do know is that the people watching the cameras are not at our corporate location, and they don't want the people watching the stuff to VPN to us to watch it |
| 16:28.24 | Shirik | Your right to use the Services is personal to You. You agree not to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, trade, or resell, whether by itself or in concert with one or more additional services: (a) any portion of the Services (including Your username); (b) use of the Services; or (c) access to the Services. |
| 16:33.27 | Shirik | ok you know what |
| 16:33.44 | Shirik | those coke machines that display things like "Sold out" scrolling across the 7-segment display |
| 16:33.52 | Shirik | I have a lot more respect for them now |
| 16:33.54 | Shirik | that is a PITA to do |
| 16:33.56 | A-KO | why's that? |
| 16:33.57 | A-KO | lol |
| 16:34.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:34.04 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 16:34.14 | Shirik | Because you have two sets of "scrolling stuff" to track |
| 16:34.44 | Shirik | Because actually all digits display the same number at the same time, they're all interconnected. So what you do is turn on the first digit with the first number, then turn it off and turn on the second digit, etc. |
| 16:34.53 | Shirik | Do it fast enough and you get what looks like all 4 digits at the same time |
| 16:35.03 | Iriel | ruthlessly tracks Shirik's scrolling stuff |
| 16:36.47 | Shirik | http://wowi.pastey.net/126028-2wnb |
| 16:36.51 | Shirik | All that does is display "Good Job!" |
| 16:36.52 | Shirik | that's it |
| 16:37.37 | A-KO | jesus |
| 16:38.23 | Shirik | actually |
| 16:38.28 | Shirik | that doesn't show you all the work |
| 16:38.38 | Shirik | DigitTranslator is equally messy |
| 16:38.44 | Shirik | which is called in there |
| 16:38.51 | A-KO | almost reminds me of brainfuck |
| 16:41.50 | Shirik | ah come on A-KO |
| 16:41.53 | Shirik | that's easy stuff |
| 16:42.35 | zenzelezz | man, I'm way out of touch with technology these days... is it correct that DDR2-667 (PC-5300) is preferable over DDR2-800 (PC-6400) for a CPU with 1333 MHz FSB? Would it be silly to use PC-6400 clocked to 667 MHz? |
| 16:42.43 | Shirik | http://wowi.pastey.net/126029 is more fun |
| 16:43.01 | Shirik | zenzelezz: Not enough information specified |
| 16:43.22 | Shirik | It is likely that the PC-6400 would have higher latency |
| 16:43.32 | Shirik | if so, it's possible that the 667 variant would be better |
| 16:43.35 | A-KO | zenzelezz: generally no, as you want to have a 1:1 clock or as close to it as you can. So while DDR2-667 might let you OC a little easier, DDR2-800 or even DDR3 1333 would be more preferable. |
| 16:43.38 | Shirik | check the CAS timings |
| 16:44.23 | A-KO | Shirik: http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/BOTTLES.BF |
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| 16:44.36 | ScytheBlade1 | mikma: no idea |
| 16:44.38 | Shirik | ok but that's not an industry-standard language :P |
| 16:44.42 | A-KO | lol |
| 16:44.44 | Shirik | VERILOG is a language used all over the place |
| 16:44.48 | zenzelezz | I tried googling it, and got some results saying that a 1333 MHz FSB CPU was basically a quad-pumped 333 MHz thingie, therefore that one recommended 667 MHz memory; other sites seemed to disagree |
| 16:45.09 | Shirik | My favorite part is things like "incorrect <= incorrect; " that are required |
| 16:45.09 | A-KO | zenzelezz: you want the highest bandwidth ram you can find, but DDR3 1333 is preferable. Otherwise get some 1066 ram, etc. |
| 16:45.31 | zenzelezz | A-KO: I see, thanks |
| 16:45.43 | Shirik | zenzelezz: You really need to check the CAS timings of whatever you pick before you lock yourself down |
| 16:45.45 | zenzelezz | I used to be on top of all this years ago :-/ |
| 16:46.29 | zenzelezz | Shirik: the CAS timings never made any sense to me I'm afraid; I'm not technical enough to understand the different components of it |
| 16:46.36 | Shirik | It's really simple |
| 16:49.07 | Shirik | Basically it's the number of clock ticks required between when the processor requests a given memory location and when that data is actually available on the output pins of the memory |
| 16:49.14 | Shirik | That's oversimplifying it, but that's basically what it is |
| 16:49.37 | zenzelezz | so what's the difference between 5-5-5-15 and 5-5-5-18? |
| 16:49.58 | Shirik | So if one chip is CAS 2 and one is CAS 3, then it will take 50% longer to access a memory location. In the real-world situation, there's less of a difference than that because OSes are intelligent, but that's basically how it works |
| 16:50.01 | Shirik | ok the first number is CAS |
| 16:50.07 | Shirik | so they both have a latency of 5 ticks |
| 16:50.39 | zenzelezz | sorry, 5-6-6-18 |
| 16:51.02 | Shirik | again, it's only the first number you should concern yourself with :) |
| 16:51.09 | zenzelezz | I see |
| 16:51.13 | zenzelezz | that does simplify it |
| 16:51.23 | Shirik | The other numbers are related to what's known as "row access" and they're both more complex to explain and less detrimental to the system |
| 16:52.30 | Shirik | The difference between 5 and 6 is probably negligable if you're talking 667 vs 800. And do keep in mind that increasing the speed may cause the number to go up, but still be effectively the same access time ;) |
| 16:52.42 | Shirik | But if they're both the same, then the higher speed one is definitely the way to go |
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| 16:54.05 | zenzelezz | right now I'm only looking at PC-8500 (1066 MHz); the cheapest bricks don't seem to want to mention their CAS timings on the main page; the mid-price ones seem to be 7, the expensive ones 5 |
| 16:54.07 | Shirik | omg, 2 Lopeppeppys |
| 16:54.28 | zenzelezz | peppy overload |
| 16:54.59 | Shirik | :( |
| 16:55.20 | Shirik | I don't know what you're willing to spend, but I try to avoid the "cheapest bricks" as you call them |
| 16:55.29 | Shirik | they tend to have more problems than just performance |
| 16:55.37 | zenzelezz | "expensive" for DDR2 isn't expensive |
| 16:55.45 | zenzelezz | so yeah, I'm likely to go for the top end ones there |
| 16:56.17 | zenzelezz | whenever I see the exact same RAM brick being sold both with and without fan, I keep wondering how wise it is to go for the fanless one |
| 16:56.25 | Shirik | surprisingly, despite the fact that people are so concerned with speed these days, latency can often have a bigger impact on speed believe it or not |
| 16:56.36 | Shirik | There's so much being accessed at once |
| 16:56.59 | Shirik | Here's an interesting analogy brought up in our computer architecture class |
| 16:57.23 | Shirik | If we were to slow everything down such that your processor operated on a 1 second clock tick, then a memory access would take approximately a week, and a hard drive access would take approximately a year. |
| 16:57.40 | zenzelezz | heh |
| 16:57.45 | zenzelezz | nice one |
| 17:00.57 | zenzelezz | hm... I actually have four 1 GB 4-4-4-12 bricks now (PC-6400)... wonder if it'd be worth upgrading to two 2 GB bricks instead; they seem to be 5-5-5-15 and up |
| 17:01.20 | zenzelezz | (mean PC-8500 for those possible new ones) |
| 17:01.43 | Shirik | well you have to consider the speed they'll operate at |
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| 17:02.00 | Shirik | 4-4-4-12 is very fast though |
| 17:02.02 | Shirik | I'm impressed |
| 17:03.08 | Shirik | However, I'm confused why you're doing the upgrade? 4x1GB is better than 2x2GB unless you're planning to get more... |
| 17:04.15 | zenzelezz | again, I'm not technical enough to understand the differences most of the time :-o |
| 17:04.25 | Shirik | well why do you want to upgrade :) |
| 17:04.31 | Shirik | obviously both of those are 4GB |
| 17:05.29 | zenzelezz | well, my motherboard died, I always eye an opportunity to upgrade :-p Could get a 4x2 GB PC-6400 set at 4-4-4-12 for a reasonable price |
| 17:05.40 | Shirik | probably not |
| 17:05.44 | zenzelezz | I'm looking at it |
| 17:05.47 | zenzelezz | so yes, I could |
| 17:05.52 | Shirik | wow |
| 17:05.56 | Shirik | technology has come a long way :) |
| 17:06.21 | Shirik | As memory sizes get bigger, it's harder to maintain those low timings |
| 17:06.22 | zenzelezz | mind you "reasonable" is my opinion only; it's ~$250 US |
| 17:06.30 | Shirik | because there is exponentially more circuitry to work through |
| 17:06.39 | Shirik | each, or for 4? |
| 17:07.14 | zenzelezz | it's for a set of 4x2 GB Kingston HyperX PC-6400 bricks (so total) |
| 17:07.21 | Shirik | that is definitely reasonable |
| 17:07.31 | Shirik | I.... may have to look into that myself >.> |
| 17:08.00 | zenzelezz | now if only Microsoft's site wasn't so reluctant to tell me which versions of Win7 will allow me to use 8 GB of RAM and utilize four cores |
| 17:08.32 | Shirik | all |
| 17:08.35 | zenzelezz | from two peppies to no peppies... this is not good |
| 17:08.59 | Shirik | Home basic is 8GB, home premium is 16GB, professional and up is 192GB (lol) |
| 17:09.14 | zenzelezz | aha, so that's no issue then |
| 17:10.36 | zenzelezz | well cheers for the help, think I'll go for the 8 GB set and try it out; can always offload it on some sucker if I decide I want faster bricks |
| 17:10.44 | Shirik | :) |
| 17:10.51 | Shirik | glhfdsdd |
| 17:11.28 | cbreak | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.03 | zenzelezz | Snow Leopard isn't a free upgrade from Leopard, right? |
| 17:12.17 | cbreak | depends. I paid 79 CHFr for a 5 license family pack. |
| 17:12.26 | Shirik | CHFr? |
| 17:12.29 | cbreak | it's only free if you bought a computer or leopard within 1 month of release or so |
| 17:12.31 | cbreak | swiss francs |
| 17:12.37 | Shirik | what is CH? |
| 17:12.44 | zenzelezz | Switzerland |
| 17:12.48 | cbreak | Confederatio Helvetica. Switzerland. |
| 17:13.04 | zenzelezz | is that what it really means? I never figured that one |
| 17:13.13 | cbreak | Yes. |
| 17:13.37 | zenzelezz | not sure if the Mac Mini I use at work for iPhone development would have any benefit from Snow Leopard |
| 17:13.48 | zenzelezz | it's stuck at 2 GB RAM anyway and whatnot |
| 17:13.52 | Shirik | I knew it meant Switzerland zenzelezz -_- |
| 17:13.55 | Shirik | thanks cbreak :P |
| 17:14.04 | zenzelezz | :-p |
| 17:14.06 | Iriel | zenzelezz: isn't grand central dispatch supposed to boost performance regardless? |
| 17:14.12 | cbreak | it's a technology |
| 17:14.20 | cbreak | it only helps when apps use it |
| 17:14.24 | Shirik | iphone is going to make me learn obj-c |
| 17:14.32 | Shirik | can I develop for iphone on windows? |
| 17:14.34 | cbreak | devs have to write for it, it's not just there |
| 17:14.37 | zenzelezz | Shirik: no |
| 17:14.41 | Shirik | wtf is that crap |
| 17:14.44 | Shirik | screw apple |
| 17:14.46 | zenzelezz | well, you can write your obj-c files... but not compile |
| 17:15.06 | cbreak | you can buy mac os and try to run it on a non-apple computer |
| 17:15.06 | zenzelezz | Iriel: I have no idea, I'm not very familiar with the MacOS stuff |
| 17:15.16 | Shirik | lol |
| 17:15.16 | cbreak | I've heard of sucesses with efix firmware thingies |
| 17:15.29 | zenzelezz | cbreak: read about a lot of people using Mac OS in VMWare, which apparently works, but is slow as sin |
| 17:15.32 | Shirik | I have no intention of paying apple to help them make money |
| 17:15.46 | Shirik | Let's be honest: iphone would suck without applications |
| 17:16.14 | zenzelezz | I'm actually starting to like several aspects of Mac OS, even though there's still a lot of things that would keep me from using it as my main OS (differences to what I'm used to in Windows/Linux, won't call them wrong or anything of that nature) |
| 17:16.52 | Iriel | I |
| 17:17.08 | Iriel | Im curious what would keep you from OSX over Linux? |
| 17:17.47 | cbreak | I like OS X most from all systems I tried. |
| 17:17.53 | zenzelezz | I'm not sure about comparing those two; I use linux mostly as my IRC/e-mail/IM/surfing computer, but Windows for most other things |
| 17:18.01 | zenzelezz | linux is somewhere between Mac OS and Windows (to me) |
| 17:18.14 | Iriel | Interesting |
| 17:18.19 | cbreak | It has nothing to do with windows |
| 17:18.24 | Iriel | I found linux to be way the other side of OSX compared to windows |
| 17:18.29 | Iriel | On all scales I can come up with |
| 17:18.43 | zenzelezz | one thing I dislike about Mac OS is the solitary top menu bar, as opposed to individual menu bars inside an application's window |
| 17:18.45 | Shirik | I dunno, KDE4 is pretty windowsish |
| 17:18.45 | Iriel | (And dont get me wrong, linux was my primary desktop OS for over 10 years) |
| 17:18.59 | Shirik | Technically KDE isn't Linux |
| 17:19.01 | zenzelezz | Iriel: I'm not saying linux is technically in-between, just in-between in the way I use them |
| 17:19.10 | Shirik | but OSX isn't KDE :P |
| 17:19.19 | cbreak | you can run it on os x. maybe. |
| 17:19.22 | cbreak | in x11 :) |
| 17:19.31 | cbreak | (not that I think it would make sense) |
| 17:19.32 | Iriel | You get used to the menu bar thing very quickly, I find |
| 17:19.50 | zenzelezz | another thing I still don't like about Mac OS is the keyboard shortcuts; which while I've managed to reconfigure many to more familiar key combos, there are still many I don't remember/get right |
| 17:19.51 | cbreak | It uses less space than to have 10 copies of the same menu bar in each window |
| 17:19.58 | zenzelezz | Iriel: I'm used to it, I just don't like it |
| 17:20.14 | cbreak | uses keyboard commands for most things. Quicksilver rocks! |
| 17:20.29 | zenzelezz | it's simply a taste thing, if I'd started out on Mac OS and not Windows then I'd probably think the opposite about menu bars |
| 17:20.33 | Shirik | uses keyboard commands for everything too |
| 17:20.39 | Shirik | Except on the damn school computers |
| 17:20.41 | Fisker | awww |
| 17:20.52 | Shirik | because windows+r is restricted, even though you can just go start->accesories->command prompt |
| 17:20.52 | Fisker | In SG:U they jump into for the lose :/ |
| 17:20.56 | zenzelezz | I try, but I get all confused about the weird alt/control/funky sign keys in Mac OS |
| 17:21.03 | Fisker | l2winkey |
| 17:21.12 | Shirik | What is the little squiggle symbol called anyway? |
| 17:21.15 | Shirik | It has a name |
| 17:21.16 | Shirik | I forgot it |
| 17:21.18 | cbreak | Command Key |
| 17:21.20 | Shirik | no |
| 17:21.23 | Shirik | the symbol itself |
| 17:21.24 | Fisker | yes! |
| 17:21.27 | Fisker | fuck you :/ |
| 17:21.29 | cbreak | the fan thignie? |
| 17:21.33 | Shirik | yes |
| 17:21.43 | zenzelezz | it's the symbol used for, er, things worth seeing? |
| 17:21.47 | zenzelezz | like museums and stuff |
| 17:21.50 | cbreak | hmm... command button symbol thing? |
| 17:22.13 | cbreak | many years ago, the button had an apple symbol instead |
| 17:22.24 | Shirik | it had both I believe |
| 17:22.53 | cbreak | yes |
| 17:23.12 | zenzelezz | when my workplace made me start iPhone development, I ended up downloading Ukelele so I could make my keyboard act the way I'm used to (symbols in the right places and whatnot) |
| 17:23.16 | Shirik | wasn't that when there was like |
| 17:23.20 | Shirik | an open apple and a filled in apple? |
| 17:23.25 | Shirik | and they were two different buttons? |
| 17:23.34 | Iriel | Shirik: I dont think that was that long ago |
| 17:23.42 | Shirik | it was to me :( |
| 17:23.47 | Iriel | Shirik: IIRC my mac pro came with a keyboard with those labels on |
| 17:23.59 | cbreak | zenzelezz: the command key is used for most application commands. Other keys are used as modifiers. Unix commands are done with the control key, like ctrl-c to exit a cli app. |
| 17:24.39 | zenzelezz | cbreak: yeah, I think I messed those up a bit... or maybe that was the Alt key |
| 17:24.41 | Lukian | alt+f4 vs ctrl+q |
| 17:24.53 | foxlit | apple-q :) |
| 17:24.55 | cbreak | alt is just a modifier to get different glyphs |
| 17:25.07 | zenzelezz | not in nano etc. |
| 17:25.07 | Shirik | ah |
| 17:25.08 | Shirik | here we are |
| 17:25.10 | cbreak | like alt-g for @ (on my keyboard) |
| 17:25.11 | Lukian | (more bogus is alt+f2 in gnome is run, which is win+r in windows) |
| 17:25.11 | Shirik | "Saint John's Arms" |
| 17:25.15 | Shirik | that's what that symbol's called |
| 17:25.20 | zenzelezz | alt/meta R for "replace" mode in search, etc |
| 17:25.25 | zenzelezz | Shirik: really? o_O |
| 17:25.48 | foxlit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_John's_Arms |
| 17:25.52 | zenzelezz | funky |
| 17:26.00 | Lukian | compiz has some brilliant keybindings/features |
| 17:26.34 | Lukian | ctrl+alt+numpad key for where I want a window on the screen, retap key to increase it's width/height on a large grid |
| 17:26.52 | zenzelezz | now I'll admit that if I didn't just use Mac OS at work, but at home too, I probably would adjust more/learn how to "fix" the things that annoy me; don't have time for that at work |
| 17:27.51 | cbreak | you get paid for it, so you can take it slow :) |
| 17:28.02 | zenzelezz | :-p |
| 17:28.25 | zenzelezz | you know what work is like; they want The Next Big Thing, and they want it by yesterday... |
| 17:30.19 | zenzelezz | motherboards are always the thing I have most trouble picking... there are just too many models and too minute differences |
| 17:30.39 | zenzelezz | (and too many fanbois fighting over which is better) |
| 17:32.27 | zenzelezz | sometimes I amaze myself... got a USB stick thing on a string, to make it easier to carry around. Was swinging it around for entertainment while watching the news and managed to smack myself in the nose with it |
| 17:33.02 | cbreak | be glad for technological progress |
| 17:33.15 | cbreak | it would have hurt much more if you had the same amount of data on disks |
| 17:33.32 | zenzelezz | haha |
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| 17:42.59 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.gamespot.com/greatest-video-game-hero/vote/index.html?battle_id=62 |
| 17:43.02 | ScytheBlade1 | Vote Freeman! |
| 17:45.27 | Lopeppeppy | Free Willy! |
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| 17:59.17 | amro | any windows developers around? |
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| 18:01.10 | Fisker | h |
| 18:01.13 | Fisker | i |
| 18:01.26 | amro | ~silence Fisker |
| 18:01.27 | purl | ACTION shoves an apple in Fisker's mouth, shoves a spit through ... well, uhm, anyway ... then builds a nice fire and starts roasting |
| 18:02.19 | Fisker | yeah but why don't you stop me? |
| 18:02.23 | amro | a little less graphic next time purl |
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| 18:38.08 | Tuller | define what you mean by windows developer |
| 18:38.26 | amro | someone who primarily develops software on windows |
| 18:38.38 | Tuller | then potentially yes |
| 18:38.57 | amro | how do you deal with installing and setting up libraries? |
| 18:39.25 | amro | I just spent hours manually googling, downloading, compiling and installing dependencies |
| 18:39.29 | amro | there's got to be a better way |
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| 18:40.31 | Tuller | never had to do that :P |
| 18:41.37 | amro | that's .NET's fault |
| 18:41.53 | Tuller | yep, it made me stupid :) |
| 18:42.00 | foxlit | Meh? You're only in trouble if you're using third party libs. |
| 18:42.09 | foxlit | And in that case, you're in trouble on any platform. |
| 18:42.18 | amro | no, I'm not |
| 18:42.39 | amro | sudo apt-get install libsdl<tabcomplete> |
| 18:42.45 | amro | ^ much better than what I had to go through on windows |
| 18:42.55 | End | .NET can be a royal pain if something goes wrong |
| 18:43.01 | End | on install I mean |
| 18:43.06 | amro | I'm not using .NET :P |
| 18:43.19 | Tuller | well, there's your problem :P |
| 18:43.20 | amro | I said that because microsoft's idea of making windows dev easy was .NET |
| 18:43.29 | amro | which doesn't help if you're using C++ |
| 18:43.32 | amro | I don't want to use .NET |
| 18:43.36 | End | oh, I guess you wouldn't be compiling if it was .NET |
| 18:43.41 | foxlit | So you can use their C++ and their libraries. |
| 18:43.52 | amro | foxlit: ? |
| 18:43.59 | foxlit | VC++ exists :) |
| 18:44.04 | Tuller | right :P |
| 18:44.05 | amro | that's what I'm using |
| 18:44.09 | End | still, I spent a while googling downloading and installing to get 3.5 installed because it wasn't clear on what was wrong |
| 18:44.16 | End | so it can suck with .NET too |
| 18:44.39 | amro | foxlit: I still have to manually compile most libs because not all have precompiled libs for my setup |
| 18:44.45 | foxlit | amro: what they probably intend you to use is DX and not SDL |
| 18:45.13 | amro | ugh I'd rather die. and I mean that cause DX is such a pain in the ass |
| 18:45.25 | amro | not to mention platform specific |
| 18:45.28 | foxlit | I'm blissfully unaware of windows, c++, dx, and media layers. |
| 18:45.35 | amro | lucky man |
| 18:45.43 | amro | although, you're blissfully missing out on C++ |
| 18:45.52 | foxlit | has C. |
| 18:45.58 | Tuller | i've kindof half decided that I dislike C++ |
| 18:45.59 | amro | shudders |
| 18:46.24 | amro | I can't think of a better language for what I'm doing atm |
| 18:46.30 | foxlit | From my unawareness, I'd say it's reasonably comfortable to develop *for* a microsoft platform -- it's just when you start to think "hey, I'd like this to run on different platforms" that you run into problems. |
| 18:46.38 | amro | I'm using luabind to expose classes to lua. C++/Lua = win |
| 18:46.41 | foxlit | Which is probably their intention anyway. |
| 18:46.53 | amro | foxlit: mostly yes |
| 18:47.28 | amro | foxlit: even as far as cross-platform goes, I can write code that compiles on windows just fine from anywhere... it's just the part where I have to compile it that sucks |
| 18:48.03 | amro | for my app the only thing I need right now is an #ifdef to include <windows.h> |
| 18:48.10 | amro | and a few weeks to setup all these dependencies >< |
| 18:48.30 | Tuller | you may just have to deal with that |
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| 18:49.15 | amro | right, but the thing is it was like this almost a decade ago when I first touched VC |
| 18:49.25 | amro | surely they've made SOME progress on that front? |
| 18:50.08 | amro | oh right, .NET |
| 18:50.22 | Dagmar | Not really |
| 18:50.34 | Tuller | yeah you underestimate the power of microsoft hating you :) |
| 18:50.37 | Dagmar | Mainly that's just a platform for Microsoft to take advantage of free developers. |
| 18:50.45 | Dagmar | Step #1: Release half-assed spec and half-assed implementation. |
| 18:51.04 | amro | Dagmar: yeah, but .NET was born, at least as far as I know, because developing for windows was a major pain in the ass |
| 18:51.08 | Dagmar | Step #2: Wait for open source coders to find flaws in spec and fix them, and code their own version. |
| 18:51.15 | Dagmar | Step #3: Add new crap to spec. |
| 18:51.26 | Dagmar | Step #4: Repeat steps 1-3. |
| 18:51.33 | amro | heh |
| 18:51.49 | Dagmar | It's pretty much exactly what's been going down with .NET |
| 18:51.55 | Dagmar | Silverlight was only a matter of time |
| 18:52.11 | amro | is silverlight even picking up anything? |
| 18:52.12 | foxlit | wants linking explained. |
| 18:52.22 | Dagmar | what about linking |
| 18:52.26 | foxlit | My poor ~1k line C program links into a 7MB monster. |
| 18:52.40 | Dagmar | So don't call outside code |
| 18:52.41 | End | are you statically linking it? |
| 18:52.44 | amro | what libs are you using? |
| 18:52.51 | foxlit | End: I have no idea. |
| 18:52.56 | Dagmar | Strip it, for one |
| 18:53.19 | End | yeah, stripping would help a lot |
| 18:53.26 | End | if you don't need debugging symbols |
| 18:53.46 | End | also, if you statically link, it puts library bits into your program |
| 18:54.11 | End | instead of just loading them at runtime from an external file |
| 18:54.12 | Dagmar | i.e., it'll bundle libfoo.a into your binary |
| 18:54.19 | foxlit | So doing "gcc -lstuff -lmorestuff myfile.c" would bundle the relevant libraries? |
| 18:54.28 | Dagmar | Yes. |
| 18:54.36 | Dagmar | Assuming that they're static libs you've just called. |
| 18:54.55 | foxlit | Hm, interesting :) |
| 18:54.57 | End | I have no idea what the default is if both static and shared are available |
| 18:55.07 | foxlit | Picked a bad time to bring this up, though -- have to run :) |
| 18:55.08 | Dagmar | It's going to use the shared ones, afaik |
| 18:55.14 | foxlit | vanishes. |
| 18:59.02 | Tuller | hrm, the new ubuntu boot loader goes -> loading -> login prompt -> loading -> desktop |
| 18:59.20 | Tuller | I wonder if that's a brilliant way to have stuff loading into the background while you're typing out your login info |
| 19:00.50 | Lopeppeppy | Mmm, tasty keyslogged |
| 19:00.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 19:05.38 | *** join/#wowuidev zeheres (n=crs@dslb-084-061-103-171.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:06.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Fisker (n=zsirc@212088073002.static.sonofon.dk) |
| 19:06.45 | Fisker | i wanr shirik dead! |
| 19:06.56 | Lopeppeppy | Fisker, be nice. |
| 19:07.05 | zenzelezz | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/10/03/funny-pictures-somewhere-else/ |
| 19:07.24 | Fisker | but my computee got owned |
| 19:07.49 | Fisker | br |
| 19:07.54 | Fisker | b |
| 19:08.32 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (i=harl@dslb-088-076-042-034.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 19:11.13 | Fisker | so any suggestions? comp crashed did a few reboots and wont start. the 2 switches on my mobo is rapidly flashing instead of being always on |
| 19:11.44 | Lopeppeppy | Wait, I thought t was zenzelezz with the dead motherboard |
| 19:12.19 | zenzelezz | Fisker must have caught it while lurking in my room |
| 19:12.49 | Fisker | :( |
| 19:12.53 | Shirik | Fisker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNOUNFNYAmA |
| 19:13.14 | Fisker | no |
| 19:14.54 | Fisker | this client doesnt even have trout slaps |
| 19:15.12 | Shirik | good |
| 19:15.27 | Shirik | lol |
| 19:15.36 | Shirik | your client doesn't even respond to CTCP VERSION |
| 19:15.38 | Shirik | wtf are you running |
| 19:16.21 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 19:16.31 | Shirik | I think your client is fucked up |
| 19:16.34 | Fisker | zsirc btwæ |
| 19:16.36 | Shirik | I can't tell if it's you or your client |
| 19:16.47 | Fisker | fu :( |
| 19:16.47 | Shirik | But every time I send a CTCP VERSION to you |
| 19:16.53 | Shirik | it responds with a CTCP VERSION request |
| 19:16.56 | Shirik | instead of a CTCP VERSION reply |
| 19:17.04 | Shirik | it's... quite hilarious actually |
| 19:17.05 | Fisker | xD |
| 19:18.23 | Shirik | yeah |
| 19:18.24 | Shirik | it's completely fucked up |
| 19:18.27 | Shirik | VERSION |
| 19:18.28 | Shirik | VERSION zsIRC:2008.12.28:PocketPC |
| 19:18.30 | Shirik | oops |
| 19:18.36 | Shirik | that was a mistake |
| 19:19.07 | Shirik | about 25% of the clients in here responded to that as if it were a channel CTCP... |
| 19:19.16 | Shirik | Anyway, Fisker, whatever client that zsIRC is |
| 19:19.18 | Shirik | it's fucked |
| 19:19.24 | Lopeppeppy | curls up protectively around her client. |
| 19:19.45 | Shirik | curls up around Lopeppeppy's client too |
| 19:19.57 | Fisker | fix my computer shirik |
| 19:20.02 | Shirik | get a real IRC client |
| 19:20.59 | Fisker | curls up around lopeppeppy |
| 19:20.59 | Lopeppeppy | And a new motherboard, that sounds evil, fisker |
| 19:21.09 | Shirik | Anyway |
| 19:21.21 | Shirik | I'm pretty sure it's incorrect for what I sent to the channel to be considered a channel-wide CTCP |
| 19:21.49 | Shirik | I'm pretty sure the CTCP start needs to be at the beginning of the message |
| 19:22.36 | Fisker | 3 days without computer will result in a fatal condition |
| 19:23.41 | Shirik | FOR YOU |
| 19:24.11 | Fisker | no u |
| 19:24.32 | Adys | [22:22:41] <@Shirik> I'm pretty sure it's incorrect for what I sent to the channel to be considered a channel-wide CTCP |
| 19:24.35 | Adys | its clients sucking ass |
| 19:24.38 | Shirik | yah |
| 19:24.49 | Shirik | I mean, Fisker's is broken enough as it is |
| 19:24.58 | Thunder_Child | it's a pocket pc irc |
| 19:25.08 | Shirik | but the fact that so many different clients responded to it when I quoted it here |
| 19:25.12 | Shirik | is... quite depressing |
| 19:25.15 | zenzelezz | <Shirik> about 25% of the clients in here responded to that as if it were a channel CTCP... <-- which clients did that; was it mostly the same ones? |
| 19:25.15 | Adys | means that many clients suck |
| 19:25.29 | Shirik | BitchX, ircII, Quassel, dircproxy |
| 19:25.32 | nevcairiel | anyone found a mirror for the enGB PTR Patch yet? the silly client still doesnt offer me the patch |
| 19:25.36 | Shirik | I think that's it |
| 19:26.02 | zenzelezz | interesting |
| 19:26.34 | nevcairiel | Shirik, the clients answerd when you just posted that line in the channel? o.O |
| 19:26.39 | Shirik | yes |
| 19:26.45 | Fisker | notice how mirc wasnt in that list |
| 19:26.51 | nevcairiel | i should report that to the quassel devs |
| 19:27.02 | nevcairiel | VERSION |
| 19:27.02 | zenzelezz | people can say whatever they want, mIRC doesn't suck that bad |
| 19:27.05 | nevcairiel | lol :P |
| 19:27.51 | Dagmar | zenzelezz: I dunno about "that bad" but it sucks fecal-flavored biscuits |
| 19:28.08 | Shirik | Dagmar: Well |
| 19:28.12 | Shirik | My client handled the message correctly |
| 19:28.14 | zenzelezz | Dagmar: care to elaborate on why/how? |
| 19:28.14 | Shirik | yours didn't. |
| 19:28.17 | Thunder_Child | i have no issues with mirc |
| 19:28.58 | Thunder_Child | and i tried at least a half dozen other clients |
| 19:29.10 | Dagmar | The scripting language is insane, it handles charsets improperly, and it's got Windows users lowering the bar for intelligent behaviour around the globe. |
| 19:29.25 | Dagmar | OH, and it doesn't even handle RFC-defined client behaviours properly |
| 19:30.12 | Dagmar | Thunder_Child: It'll work, just don't expect to do anything particular exciting with it or you will find ugly things |
| 19:30.15 | zenzelezz | what do you think of when you speak about intelligent behaviour? |
| 19:30.22 | Thunder_Child | exciting? |
| 19:30.33 | Thunder_Child | it does what i need it to. |
| 19:30.43 | Dagmar | zenzelezz: Lowering the bar for literacy |
| 19:31.08 | zenzelezz | that still doesn't tell me what it does differently from other clients to accomplish that |
| 19:31.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 19:31.29 | Thunder_Child | what zenzelezz said |
| 19:31.30 | Dagmar | zenzelezz: It's users are mostly idiots. That's enough for me. |
| 19:32.04 | Shirik | Its |
| 19:32.16 | zenzelezz | I suppose if you look at it that way then I see your point, while I don't find that to be a very logical thing to blame the client for |
| 19:32.17 | Dagmar | Thunder_Child: The scripting "language" being mostly some hacked up crap prevents it being used for much "serious" anything, like channel management mechanisms beyond what the IRC bot services have |
| 19:32.37 | *** join/#wowuidev mendel-de (n=mendel@wikia/M.mendel) |
| 19:32.37 | Shirik | hm, I had a pretty complex channel management system in mirc script before |
| 19:32.53 | Shirik | but anything beyond that, easy enough to write up an actual bot |
| 19:32.58 | Shirik | why force you to keep a client open? |
| 19:33.00 | Dagmar | I'll make this one easy then... did you ever try to keep a channel in Efnet under control with it? |
| 19:33.19 | Shirik | hmmm I forget where it was |
| 19:33.21 | zenzelezz | we should all just still be using eggdrops |
| 19:33.30 | Shirik | it was quite active though |
| 19:33.32 | zenzelezz | "so uh, how do I make it do stuff? ... Tcl? o_O" |
| 19:33.47 | Shirik | but going back to that |
| 19:33.55 | Dagmar | zenzelezz: I'm still on the fence about which is worse |
| 19:33.56 | Shirik | even if mirc's scripting language couldn't do anything more than "hello world" |
| 19:34.01 | Shirik | 99% of the users of mirc don't need that capability |
| 19:34.20 | Shirik | it's pointless to complain about something that the users don't use, and use that as a justification for why it sucks |
| 19:34.27 | zenzelezz | Dagmar: for what it's worth I have no objection with your opinion, I was/am merely trying to understand it |
| 19:35.06 | Dagmar | Well, I have a long standing beef about it because mIRC is a large part of the reason we had a rash of jackasses who thought a crude DoS attack they can launch with cliK tewls makes them leet |
| 19:35.35 | zenzelezz | are you by any chance thinking of the über kids using Warmaster? |
| 19:35.46 | Dagmar | Their numbers we legion |
| 19:35.57 | zenzelezz | I remember some of my friends going through that period |
| 19:36.11 | Dagmar | We can also talk about Khaled's "color codes" |
| 19:36.12 | zenzelezz | sitting at home on their 56k trying to DoS someone, not really understanding what the hell it meant |
| 19:36.28 | Dagmar | ANDI existed, windows had colors for it, but Khaled had to come up with his own deranged system |
| 19:36.34 | Dagmar | s/ANDI/ANSI/; |
| 19:36.42 | zenzelezz | Dagmar: the color codes thing I would have to agree about |
| 19:36.52 | Shirik | colors are bad anyway |
| 19:37.02 | Shirik | I use a black background |
| 19:37.03 | zenzelezz | I still strip all incoming bold, underline, reverse and color |
| 19:37.09 | Shirik | every time someone uses a color that looks good on their computer |
| 19:37.09 | Dagmar | Pretty much. They generally make the assumption that you know what the other person's background color is |
| 19:37.11 | Shirik | it looks like shit on mine |
| 19:38.00 | Thunder_Child | you are blaming a client on peoples actions. thats like blaming colt for all the people that die in the world to M4 and M16's. |
| 19:38.19 | Shirik | agree |
| 19:38.29 | Shirik | the holocaust was their fault |
| 19:38.36 | zenzelezz | not all his points are based on people's behaviour |
| 19:38.55 | Thunder_Child | the int one was |
| 19:39.06 | zenzelezz | I don't know what mIRC's character set handling is like now, but it did use to be quirky |
| 19:39.13 | Dagmar | Thunder_Child: The thing basically encouraged people who should STFU and read to jibber jabber incoherently |
| 19:39.46 | Thunder_Child | Dagmar, really? that was it's advertising slogan? |
| 19:40.28 | jpmorgan | dagmar - isnt that irc in general? |
| 19:40.41 | Dagmar | I hate to be the one to bring this up, but tlkng lk this r not somethign that sms kan be blamd 4 inventng |
| 19:41.09 | Ackis | has anyone heard of raptr? |
| 19:42.24 | Dagmar | Looks kinda like an xfire rehash |
| 19:42.40 | nevcairiel | Shirik, it appears that its actually desired behaviour to respond to the ctcp query from withing the chan msg |
| 19:43.02 | Ackis | Dagmar: aye but it takes in console stuff was wondering if anyone had used it before |
| 19:43.05 | zenzelezz | nevcairiel: oh? |
| 19:43.36 | nevcairiel | Shirik, the CTCP Spec doesnt exactly specify that the query has to be the first and only word in the line |
| 19:43.48 | Dagmar | It actually says it can be anywhere. |
| 19:43.55 | zenzelezz | how peculiar o_O |
| 19:43.59 | Dagmar | I'll show some examples |
| 19:44.00 | nevcairiel | so if you post \001VERSION\001 .. its a CTCP query |
| 19:44.05 | nevcairiel | no matter where in the line |
| 19:44.29 | Dagmar | PING |
| 19:44.40 | nevcairiel | so did you get responses? :P |
| 19:44.48 | nevcairiel | most clients won't answer |
| 19:45.00 | Dagmar | PING |
| 19:45.13 | Dagmar | Christ... which several people's clients responded to three times. |
| 19:45.33 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 19:45.54 | Dagmar | So like, if you wanted amro or Esamynn offline, all you'd need is a few bots to send them "stacked" CTCP commands, to which their clients would respond and basically amplify the effect of and flood themselves off the server. |
| 19:45.57 | zenzelezz | wonder if you could make them get an "excess flood" that way |
| 19:46.26 | Dagmar | This would be why the spec doesn't say much about it, but most clients will ignore CTCP that's not the only thing in the line, and even more of them will ignroe anything beyond the first match of \001.*\001 |
| 19:46.44 | Dagmar | zenzelezz: Considering I did it probably a few thousand times in the past, yes. |
| 19:47.16 | zenzelezz | Dagmar: I was thinking simply from a single line from one person |
| 19:47.30 | Dagmar | The spec also doesn't say anything about the validity (or general impossibility) of a DCC SEND to an entire channel instead of a user target |
| 19:47.43 | Lopeppeppy | I need a silly movie to watch. Hmm. |
| 19:47.54 | Dagmar | zenseless: If you filled all 255 chars of your message with ^APING^A then probably yes |
| 19:48.28 | jpmorgan | lope - idiocracy |
| 19:48.41 | jpmorgan | or the magic christian |
| 19:48.43 | zenzelezz | Lopeppeppy: A night at the Roxbury |
| 19:48.49 | Dagmar | 3-4 bots that'll spam such a line three times (so, a mere nine lines of output) would generally take out most of the unintelligent users in a channel in the late 90's |
| 19:49.33 | Lopeppeppy | zenzelezz, I went with Hellboy II, it has pretty scenery |
| 19:52.14 | Arrowmaster | you know i still cant figure out how http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dcc_send#DCC_SEND_exploit was caused |
| 19:53.37 | nevcairiel | anyone got the downloader (or even the torrent) for the enGB PTR Patch? i can't get the client to download it <.< |
| 19:54.33 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Gimme a minute nad I'll tell you |
| 19:54.46 | Dagmar | Oh that one |
| 19:55.15 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Two factors, two differetn failures....and the damn page is wrong *sigh* I'll call Elonka later |
| 19:55.31 | nevcairiel | its wikipedia, of course its wrong =P |
| 19:55.45 | Dagmar | Yes, there was a buffer overflow in mIRC (which we were discussing earlier) |
| 19:55.50 | Arrowmaster | i also know that it doesnt require spaces between the words, periods work too, i found that out because somebody had it as a vhost and people got disconnected when he joined the channel and whenever he talked |
| 19:55.55 | Dagmar | nevcariel: Well, I can probably get someone to fix that section and then _lock it_ |
| 19:56.09 | zenzelezz | Arrowmaster: haha |
| 19:56.22 | nevcairiel | haha thats epic |
| 19:56.34 | Arrowmaster | it was |
| 19:56.38 | Arrowmaster | it truely was |
| 19:57.01 | Dagmar | ...but aside from the general "mIRC is a buggy piece of junk" issue, there was a bug in various home/SOHO routers that did masquerading/DNAT that caused them to fail spectacularly and dump a connection if they saw zeroes in the wrong fields of the DCC SEND, because they'd be trying to masquerade that |
| 19:57.41 | zenzelezz | remember how some version of Norton reacted to people just saying "startkeylogger"? |
| 19:57.49 | Dagmar | It's looking to change the longint ip field to be correct for the inside of the DNAT and it fails, kills that session. User disconnected. |
| 19:57.53 | nevcairiel | i remember that too |
| 19:57.55 | nevcairiel | was nice |
| 19:58.12 | Dagmar | Norton and McAffee being hyper-sensitive were the other thing that was going on at about tat time |
| 19:58.33 | Dagmar | ...and the best part is that Linksys has had a _regression_ since they fixed that bug, and now it's back. |
| 19:58.43 | zenzelezz | ouch |
| 19:58.44 | Arrowmaster | it is? |
| 19:58.46 | Arrowmaster | wow |
| 19:58.47 | Arrowmaster | fail |
| 19:59.01 | zenzelezz | Patch notes: Reintroduced a bug where [...] |
| 19:59.40 | Dagmar | Yes, I was busting people's chops in #Se2600 for ages becasue it just *looks* bad when there's regulars who can be trivially bumped offline, got everyone to update their junk, and then a few months later people started failing again |
| 19:59.44 | Tepel | Anti-Virus .... fail |
| 20:00.03 | Dagmar | Actually... Let's seee |
| 20:00.30 | Dagmar | Damnit. Oddball and Gregabyte_ just blew offline |
| 20:00.45 | Dagmar | ...just from ^ADCC SEND mfinglinksysregressions 0 0 0^A |
| 20:00.51 | Dagmar | *facepalm* |
| 20:00.59 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 20:01.03 | *** join/#wowuidev robotusch (n=robotusc@50A2DBFE.flatrate.dk) |
| 20:01.05 | Arrowmaster | yeah it doesnt have to have the ^A's to work |
| 20:01.08 | zenzelezz | Dagmar: amg you hacker you |
| 20:01.12 | nevcairiel | poor robotusch |
| 20:01.24 | Dagmar | He probably won't even notice |
| 20:01.35 | Dagmar | It happens entirely in the router, and it just breaks that one session |
| 20:02.02 | Dagmar | ...but if that killed him it means the new regression is worse |
| 20:02.19 | Dagmar | joy |
| 20:02.20 | zenzelezz | let's not assume, it could be coincidence |
| 20:02.22 | Zyn | http://www.b3ta.com/links/Letter_to_Lily_Allen , heh |
| 20:02.31 | Cide- | http://bash.org/?13213 |
| 20:02.37 | Dagmar | zenzelezz: Yeah and I'm not about to pop him again to see |
| 20:03.01 | nevcairiel | he could also be on the ass-old firmware |
| 20:03.12 | nevcairiel | default users don't flash their rotuers |
| 20:03.15 | nevcairiel | *routers |
| 20:03.16 | Arrowmaster | yeah freenode staff dont like it when you do that |
| 20:03.20 | Dagmar | The original buggy one actually needed it to be a CTCP afaik |
| 20:03.26 | Cide- | did you just type ^ADCC SEND mfinglinksysregressions 0 0 0^A or did you send that over the wire? |
| 20:03.34 | Dagmar | It never dropped people from #Se2600 when we typed it as "^A" instead of the actual \001 |
| 20:03.48 | Cide- | weak |
| 20:03.51 | Cide- | the former would be more fun |
| 20:03.51 | Dagmar | In here I actually typed carat, shift-A expecting that nothing would happen |
| 20:04.23 | Dagmar | over in the channel I tested for the regression, I actually hit ctrl-a,a with /bind ^A SELF_INSERT enabled |
| 20:04.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (n=Testing@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko) |
| 20:05.01 | Arrowmaster | that new regression must be perty old then since ive always seen it working without the ^A |
| 20:05.07 | Arrowmaster | dont even need the 0's |
| 20:05.23 | Dagmar | I think we just need to start beating embedded code devs |
| 20:05.38 | Dagmar | "Fix it! *WHACK*" "Fix it! *WHACK*" |
| 20:06.56 | Arrowmaster | why the hell does it even react to that though? are they trying to be smart and open a session before its needed so port forwarding isnt needed? |
| 20:07.26 | nevcairiel | it modified the ip information in the package and opens ports so the DCC works even through the NAT |
| 20:07.31 | Dagmar | They're trying to watch for DCC session information that needs to be translated to work through DNAT |
| 20:07.48 | Dagmar | That first 0 is supposed to be the ip address of the sender in long integer format |
| 20:08.23 | Dagmar | Drops a sackful of nulls into the table |
| 20:08.58 | Arrowmaster | but receiving dcc sends works through nat anyway |
| 20:09.04 | Dagmar | Yeah one of those two guys router _doesn't_ dump him when I don't use the actual ctcp escape code |
| 20:09.10 | Dagmar | Definitely multiple regressions |
| 20:09.31 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: This is part of what makes the bug so infuriating |
| 20:09.49 | Arrowmaster | it should only be checking outgoing but its not? |
| 20:09.57 | Dagmar | The router is clearly wasting time watching traffic it doesn't need to |
| 20:10.40 | Arrowmaster | so you could use that to inject valid data into the router too |
| 20:11.30 | Dagmar | Probably not. As far as I know it's that it sticks four zeros into the connection table, which is not good |
| 20:11.44 | Dagmar | Doesn't appear to be a buffer overflow |
| 20:11.50 | Arrowmaster | use something other than zeros |
| 20:12.05 | Dagmar | DCC SEND thiswontdoanything 1 1 1 |
| 20:12.11 | Dagmar | o.O |
| 20:12.19 | *** join/#wowuidev robotusch (n=robotusc@50A2DBFE.flatrate.dk) |
| 20:12.23 | Arrowmaster | make it forward port 80 to itself and gain remote access to the config or something |
| 20:12.25 | zenzelezz | Arrowmaster: we tried telling the recording industry that, but they still came up with Britney Spears et al |
| 20:12.35 | Dagmar | Okay. I give up. All code on the internet is crap |
| 20:13.02 | Shirik | yeah Dagmar |
| 20:13.03 | Shirik | don't do that |
| 20:13.11 | Shirik | there are still people out there with that vulnerability |
| 20:13.11 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Well, the end result is that the router decides that person's session is broken and tears it down |
| 20:13.20 | Dagmar | Shirik: That one is new |
| 20:13.23 | Shirik | no it's not |
| 20:13.26 | Arrowmaster | yeah its not |
| 20:13.36 | nevcairiel | he didnt even include the control chars around the DCC command |
| 20:13.40 | nevcairiel | thats a silly router |
| 20:13.46 | Shirik | Just dcc send <something really long> |
| 20:13.47 | Arrowmaster | yeah ive seen it work like that for years |
| 20:13.50 | Dagmar | Oh wait... I need more caffiene so I can count characters |
| 20:13.53 | Shirik | that's enough to drop people |
| 20:14.10 | Dagmar | ...rather _remember_ to count characters |
| 20:14.37 | Tepel | But a channel message that disconnect people |
| 20:14.47 | Arrowmaster | been like that for years |
| 20:14.54 | Tepel | It would looks more like a client issue then a router issue |
| 20:15.05 | Shirik | iirc it's a firewall issue |
| 20:15.07 | zenzelezz | Tepel: re-read what they've been saying |
| 20:15.08 | Tepel | s/would// |
| 20:15.11 | Dagmar | pI just popped one of my test subjects with a 13 character filename and no ctcp escape, and 1's for the remaining fields |
| 20:15.14 | zenzelezz | Tepel: it's routers trying to be smart |
| 20:15.26 | Shirik | SPI "magic" |
| 20:15.31 | Dagmar | Something's definitely more frelled than usual there |
| 20:15.33 | Arrowmaster | like i said freenode staff dont like it either, they have it on highlight so they can react if somebody does it in a channel they are in |
| 20:15.43 | Shirik | ^ |
| 20:15.53 | Arrowmaster | another network i know has an autogline in their main network channel for it |
| 20:15.58 | Tepel | But Dagmar, a DCC SEND without the special chars is just a message |
| 20:16.04 | Shirik | gline? |
| 20:16.04 | Dagmar | Exactly. |
| 20:16.06 | Shirik | That's harsh |
| 20:16.13 | Arrowmaster | its a short time |
| 20:16.27 | Arrowmaster | that or its just an autokill |
| 20:16.44 | Dagmar | I'll get after Skydog and find out what router his kid is connecting through |
| 20:17.17 | Dagmar | I get the feeling he'd disconnect if you even tried to send him a file |
| 20:17.45 | Arrowmaster | still probably not as worse as the d-link ntp bug |
| 20:17.49 | Shirik | seriously, that's a very old vulnerability. All it is is DCC SEND Followed by anything longer than some number of characters |
| 20:17.51 | Shirik | I forget what it is |
| 20:18.04 | Dagmar | Shirik: an mIRC vulnerability |
| 20:18.10 | Shirik | no |
| 20:18.31 | Dagmar | ...but the 'victim' in another channel just died to me simply typing dcc, then send, then EIGHT characters for a filename, followed by three ones |
| 20:18.38 | Dagmar | It should not have triggered anything |
| 20:18.44 | Shirik | ok other channel I can't vouch for |
| 20:18.49 | Shirik | the one here was different |
| 20:18.58 | Shirik | k bye |
| 20:19.03 | Dagmar | No I'm saying the mIRC vulnerability was the one that triggered when you tried to send a filename longer than 14 characters |
| 20:20.56 | Dagmar | http://www.securiteam.com/windowsntfocus/6A00T1P8KY.html and http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/mirc/exploit.html and http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/8818 and |
| 20:21.24 | Dagmar | ...and this is what makes me think that those routers either cribbed kernel code or are using the BSD stuff that it's derived from improperly http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/4188 |
| 20:22.48 | Dagmar | ah bugger it that's not the right one of the two |
| 20:24.44 | *** join/#wowuidev tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub) |
| 20:24.44 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 20:40.51 | Dagmar | Oh bloody FINALLY a Google Voice invite |
| 20:44.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Cide (n=Cide@h161n1-far-gr100.ias.bredband.telia.com) |
| 20:44.12 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 20:44.15 | Tepel | Don't you mean Wave? |
| 20:45.25 | Adys | if he says "finally" he probably means Voice |
| 20:45.34 | Adys | for two reasons |
| 20:45.45 | smcn | they did a wave of google voice invites, got mine too |
| 20:45.45 | Adys | 1- Google Voice has been inviting for a lot longer than Wave |
| 20:46.02 | Dagmar | I've been waitin' for bloody ages to see what Voice does |
| 20:46.05 | Adys | 2- If he says "finally", it means he's been waiting for it. i doubt he'd have a slip like that |
| 20:46.21 | Dagmar | Now apparently I need to submit testing data in as to what kind of phone numbers I can think up |
| 20:46.35 | Adys | 696913371337 |
| 20:46.41 | Adys | IM GOOD |
| 20:47.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-76-104-164-148.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 20:48.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Tuller (n=muffins@pool-96-248-0-53.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 20:52.11 | Tepel | But I thought everyone could use the voice thingy |
| 20:52.29 | Lopeppeppy | No, tis still in beta and requiring an invite from google |
| 20:52.43 | Tepel | lame |
| 20:52.52 | Tepel | Everything is beta with google |
| 20:52.55 | Lopeppeppy | beta is beta-y |
| 21:00.00 | Tuller | gmail is not! |
| 21:00.13 | Tuller | calendar is not! |
| 21:00.35 | Tuller | aka, anything that they sell to people is not at this point, I think |
| 21:07.06 | Thunder_Child | amusingly one of the gmail lab options is to get the 'gmail beta' logo back |
| 21:07.23 | ScytheBlade1 | At least the android phones aren't "beta" |
| 21:15.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Fisker (n=zsirc@212088073001.static.sonofon.dk) |
| 21:15.14 | Fisker | fffffffffuuuuuu |
| 21:15.39 | Zyn | no |
| 21:16.22 | Fisker | wishes he could slap Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 21:17.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Droolio (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk) |
| 21:17.03 | Lopeppeppy | darlin', smack your computer some more instead |
| 21:18.30 | Fisker | i might as well be dead :( |
| 21:19.56 | Lopeppeppy | I'm sorry it's giving you so much trouble. No google-fu for what those lights mean? |
| 21:20.54 | Fisker | my google-fu sucks on a mobile |
| 21:23.00 | Lopeppeppy | give me search terms and I'll try |
| 21:24.35 | Fisker | think i found something |
| 21:27.26 | Fisker | sucks wheb you dont have a second set of components to test though |
| 21:29.57 | Lopeppeppy | I hear you. |
| 21:31.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=mpdelbuo@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 21:31.45 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 21:32.56 | Shirik | Build IDEA-STD-9 failed. This has been failing since IDEA-STD-1 (Initial clean build, 2 days before). Reason: No failed tests found. |
| 21:33.03 | Shirik | stabs build server |
| 21:33.26 | Shirik | If failed tests are detected, then it reports the failures. If failed tests are not detected, it assumes something must have gone wrong and says failure anyway. |
| 21:33.43 | Lopeppeppy | ... okay, even I can see that's fucked up. |
| 21:33.57 | Shirik | It's got a very practical view of the world though |
| 21:34.04 | Shirik | "Everything passed, but something else must be wrong, so it fails." |
| 21:34.27 | Lopeppeppy | Pessimistic brat |
| 21:35.08 | NightHawkTheSane | and yet, as Shirik noted, very practical. |
| 21:35.29 | Shirik | not very useful though :P |
| 21:36.03 | NightHawkTheSane | much like the world. |
| 21:37.05 | Dagmar | So the test harness differentiates between unexpected failures and expected failures. |
| 21:37.07 | Dagmar | Nothing new there |
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| 21:44.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage- (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 21:44.57 | Shirik | :/ |
| 21:45.07 | Shirik | It scares me to see comments like this: // go through array of functions (linkied list?) |
| 21:45.15 | Shirik | linkied list |
| 21:45.22 | Shirik | with a ? too |
| 21:45.39 | Shirik | and no Dagmar |
| 21:45.43 | Shirik | it just assumes everything is a failure |
| 21:45.50 | Shirik | it has no basis for unexpected an expected :P |
| 21:45.59 | Cide | it's also funny it says array right before |
| 21:46.04 | Shirik | yes |
| 21:46.31 | Cide | "I am bilingual. I speak English and Sarcasm." |
| 21:46.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Tuller (n=Tuller@pool-96-248-0-53.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:46.35 | Cide | wish I came up with that one |
| 21:49.38 | Shirik | Cide is trilingual |
| 21:49.51 | Lopeppeppy | ... |
| 21:49.57 | Shirik | ? |
| 21:50.11 | Lopeppeppy | *innocent* |
| 21:50.31 | Cide | this is true |
| 21:52.29 | Fisker | i smell burnt electronics :( |
| 21:52.43 | Lopeppeppy | sweeetie, it's toast |
| 21:54.21 | Fisker | think ill go to bed to QQ |
| 21:54.42 | Cide | please do |
| 21:54.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Zyn (n=zyn@h243n2-av-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) |
| 21:55.01 | Lopeppeppy | you might get better ideas tomorrow |
| 21:55.25 | Shirik | what happened? |
| 21:56.19 | Shirik | don't make me go to shiibot's log file |
| 21:56.20 | Shirik | wtf |
| 21:56.22 | Shirik | where is shiibot |
| 21:56.23 | Shirik | gahh |
| 21:56.25 | Shirik | noooooooo |
| 21:56.43 | Cide | ha |
| 21:56.56 | Cide | router vulnerability?! |
| 21:57.03 | Shirik | no :/ |
| 21:57.13 | Shirik | it has no record of why it exited in the log actually |
| 21:57.20 | Shirik | I wonder what happened |
| 21:57.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Shiibot (n=Shiibot@WoWUIDev/Nospam) |
| 21:57.49 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shiibot] by ChanServ |
| 21:58.04 | Cide | segfault |
| 21:58.21 | Shirik | in Lua? |
| 21:58.39 | Cide | sure |
| 21:59.39 | Fisker | you killed my computer shirik |
| 21:59.41 | Cide | bleh |
| 21:59.49 | Cide | I have so much crap to do but can't be assed to do it |
| 22:00.28 | Cide | this is bad |
| 22:03.11 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 22:06.01 | NightHawkTheSane | join the club cide. |
| 22:07.47 | cog|away | Shirik: ping |
| 22:07.56 | Shirik | cogwheel: pong |
| 22:08.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Gotai (n=Gotai@ip54546435.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl) |
| 22:09.06 | Lopeppeppy | hi, cogwheel! |
| 22:09.11 | cogwheel | hiya |
| 22:10.13 | Shirik | cogwheel, do you use visual assist? |
| 22:10.29 | cogwheel | just installed the trial a few weeks ago |
| 22:11.06 | Shirik | I think I'm going to finally break down and buy it |
| 22:11.14 | Shirik | I used it a few months ago and it's been so painful without it |
| 22:11.54 | cogwheel | my boss will likely get me a copy |
| 22:12.17 | Shirik | everyone where I worked had it |
| 22:12.24 | Shirik | but now that I'm back in school |
| 22:12.29 | Shirik | lack of it is quite depressing |
| 22:13.35 | Tepel | It doesn't seem that awesome to me |
| 22:13.39 | Tepel | But maybe I'm missing something |
| 22:13.47 | cogwheel | Tepel: do you code C++? |
| 22:13.51 | Tepel | Nope |
| 22:13.57 | cogwheel | qed imo |
| 22:13.58 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@rrcs-71-42-217-66.sw.biz.rr.com) |
| 22:14.14 | Tepel | qed? |
| 22:14.33 | cogwheel | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D. |
| 22:14.38 | Tepel | silly acronyms |
| 22:15.05 | cogwheel | visual studio's language support for C++ falls far behind other languages like C# |
| 22:15.12 | Tepel | Ohh |
| 22:15.24 | Tepel | That I didn't know |
| 22:15.39 | Shirik | "Far behind" is an understatement |
| 22:15.45 | cogwheel | ^ |
| 22:16.09 | Tepel | It's the same suite |
| 22:16.20 | Tepel | How can one language miss features that are supported in others |
| 22:16.30 | Shirik | It's a hell of a lot easier to do for .net |
| 22:16.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 22:16.39 | Tepel | I guess |
| 22:16.59 | Tepel | with all the silly cpp templates it can get tricky |
| 22:17.12 | cogwheel | and macros |
| 22:17.21 | Tepel | macro's shouldn't be that hard |
| 22:17.25 | amro | C++ has funky syntax |
| 22:17.30 | cogwheel | and syntax |
| 22:17.52 | Shirik | The following line of code has a syntax error |
| 22:17.53 | cogwheel | C# is much simpler to parse, and the environment already has complete information for all types used by your code |
| 22:17.54 | Shirik | can you find it? |
| 22:17.54 | Tepel | A macro is nothing more then a simple replace |
| 22:18.08 | amro | just be glad that vsc++ has better support for COMPILING code now |
| 22:18.30 | amro | used to be quite a nightmare |
| 22:18.30 | Tepel | Shirik: which line? |
| 22:18.38 | Shirik | std::vector<std::vector<std::string>> twoDimensionalArray; |
| 22:18.44 | cogwheel | found it |
| 22:18.45 | cogwheel | :P |
| 22:18.48 | Shirik | not allowed to say |
| 22:18.50 | zenzelezz | >> |
| 22:18.51 | Shirik | you know C++ too well |
| 22:19.02 | zenzelezz | until the next standard anyway |
| 22:19.15 | Shirik | I couldn't tell if zenzelezz was answering or if that was his eyes |
| 22:19.35 | Tepel | Nope, no idea, should be fine in my eyes |
| 22:19.38 | zenzelezz | though I noticed mostly because I read about that exact thing not long ago |
| 22:19.50 | Shirik | Tepel: C++ defines >> as being "right shift" |
| 22:19.50 | zenzelezz | Tepel: in the current standard, the >> is read as right-shift operator |
| 22:19.52 | amro | Shirik: g++ would tell you how to fix that |
| 22:19.54 | Shirik | always |
| 22:20.03 | Tepel | so you'd have to write "> >" |
| 22:20.05 | Shirik | There must be a space between the two > |
| 22:20.11 | Tepel | hah |
| 22:20.14 | Tepel | that's so silly |
| 22:20.45 | Tepel | I mean, who would use >> in a typedef |
| 22:20.46 | Shirik | anyway yeah it's fixed in C++0x |
| 22:21.13 | Tepel | I really should start doing cpp one day |
| 22:21.18 | Tepel | It's way more interesting |
| 22:21.42 | Shirik | why not now? |
| 22:21.43 | amro | it's an awesome language |
| 22:22.12 | Shirik | #define GPS_TERRAIN_DBID (GPS_HEADER DB_SEPARATOR GPS_HEADER DB_SEPARATOR GPS_TERRAIN) |
| 22:22.13 | Tepel | Because I don't have anything usefull to make |
| 22:22.13 | amro | indeed, it's not something you get into with a 3 page primer and quick ref printout |
| 22:22.13 | Shirik | yay macros! |
| 22:22.40 | Tepel | s/usefull/useful/ |
| 22:22.48 | Tepel | bah! I hate it when I do that |
| 22:22.56 | Tepel | Oh, there goes WoW |
| 22:23.15 | Shirik | Tepel: I wouldn't start off with trying to actually make something. I would start with TC++PL :) |
| 22:23.17 | Tepel | memory access violation! |
| 22:24.17 | Thunder_Child | glares @ Shirik |
| 22:24.21 | Shirik | ? |
| 22:24.24 | Tepel | What the difference between tc++pl and cpp? |
| 22:24.25 | Thunder_Child | you pinged me |
| 22:24.29 | Shirik | lol. |
| 22:24.34 | Shirik | you have tc highlighted? |
| 22:24.40 | Thunder_Child | yes, people use it |
| 22:24.45 | Tepel | lol |
| 22:24.46 | Shirik | what about words like |
| 22:24.53 | Shirik | ratchet |
| 22:24.56 | Thunder_Child | no |
| 22:25.09 | Tepel | ditch |
| 22:25.24 | Shirik | Tepel: TC++PL is a book |
| 22:25.27 | Thunder_Child | must not filter out non-letters |
| 22:25.28 | Tepel | Ohh |
| 22:25.34 | zenzelezz | Tepel: The C++ Programming Language |
| 22:25.35 | Shirik | http://www.research.att.com/~bs/3rd.html |
| 22:25.52 | Tepel | Thunder_Child: then you'd also filter out TC: |
| 22:27.32 | Tepel | But you're wrong about not starting with actually creating something |
| 22:27.42 | Tepel | Motivation is much better when you're aiming for something |
| 22:28.05 | Tepel | However out of reach that may be |
| 22:28.29 | Shirik | I just think the big problem with C++ is there is so misinformation about it |
| 22:28.39 | Shirik | if you try to make something, you'll be tempted to use the internet as a primary souce of help |
| 22:28.50 | Shirik | which will teach you things like "using namespace std;" |
| 22:28.57 | Shirik | which are bad |
| 22:29.07 | Shirik | it will teach you C programming tactics in C++ |
| 22:29.08 | Tepel | Most books I've seen are bad too |
| 22:29.17 | Shirik | that's why I didn't recommend "get a book" |
| 22:29.19 | amro | but Shirik, we're lazy! we can't be bothered to type std::! |
| 22:29.20 | Tepel | :) |
| 22:29.21 | Shirik | I recommended TC++PL |
| 22:29.45 | zenzelezz | TC++PL is very technical, which is good, as long as you already know a bit about programming |
| 22:29.49 | amro | can't be bothered to use C++ casts either |
| 22:29.55 | Shirik | I will kill you |
| 22:30.00 | amro | :) |
| 22:30.03 | amro | just kidding |
| 22:30.05 | Tepel | Ohh, by defining the current namespace as std you don't have to use std:: - yeah, that looks like a bad idea |
| 22:30.09 | Shirik | I immediately fail verification whenever someone uses a C style cass |
| 22:30.09 | Shirik | cast |
| 22:30.16 | amro | but that's what you see in average code out there |
| 22:30.18 | Shirik | s/verification/review/ |
| 22:30.37 | zenzelezz | Tepel: it's not so much saying "the current namespace is", just "dump everything from namespace <...> into this one" |
| 22:30.43 | Tepel | Yeah |
| 22:30.45 | zenzelezz | you can do it to multiple namespaces, or only parts |
| 22:30.51 | zenzelezz | using std::cout; |
| 22:30.52 | Tepel | I realized my error as I pressed enter :P |
| 22:30.58 | Shirik | I have no problem with people doing things like "using std::cout;" |
| 22:31.02 | Shirik | so long as it's not in a header file |
| 22:31.14 | Shirik | but when you pull in an entire namespace, there are problems |
| 22:31.27 | foxlit | import *; |
| 22:31.31 | foxlit | problem solved! |
| 22:31.40 | Shirik | Java has a similar construct |
| 22:31.42 | amro | I've seen people use malloc in general |
| 22:31.42 | Shirik | "import static" |
| 22:31.50 | Shirik | and in their very own documentation, they say "do not use this!" |
| 22:32.28 | Shirik | http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/static-import.html last paragraph |
| 22:33.08 | amro | they forgot to use red font |
| 22:33.10 | amro | and underline |
| 22:35.34 | Dagmar | 'cept that's not what it says |
| 22:35.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-76-104-164-148.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 22:36.02 | Dagmar | "Used appropriately, static import can make your program more readable, by removing the boilerplate of repetition of class names." |
| 22:38.37 | Shirik | you read one line in a huge area of "do not abuse this!" |
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| 22:39.32 | foxlit | "do not abuse this!" != "do not use this!" |
| 22:40.09 | foxlit | Hm, != should so be the "assert equality" operator. |
| 22:40.31 | Shirik | ok fine |
| 22:40.47 | foxlit | ~= "approximately equal" |
| 22:40.48 | Shirik | do not abuse |
| 22:49.23 | Shirik | temp.ptr(getTerrainPoint(correctedLat, correctedLon)); |
| 22:49.26 | Shirik | immediately followed by |
| 22:49.27 | Shirik | temp = temp->nxt; |
| 22:49.32 | Shirik | how drunk do you have to be to write that |
| 22:51.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@219-89-246-193.adsl.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:51.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraftman (n=kraftman@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 22:54.21 | Iriel | What's wrong with that? |
| 22:54.34 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 22:54.54 | Dagmar | o.O |
| 22:55.29 | Iriel | Oh, never mind, I see |
| 22:55.31 | Iriel | 8-) |
| 22:55.49 | Iriel | (Takes my C++ brain a while to wake up) |
| 23:00.39 | Lopeppeppy | you keep a spare one, just for that? |
| 23:01.28 | Iriel | Think of it as a bunch of dusty boxes in the back of a storage closet |
| 23:03.29 | Lopeppeppy | *laugh* |
| 23:08.04 | NightHawkTheSane | ~ping |
| 23:08.05 | purl | ~pong |
| 23:10.30 | Tuller | pants |
| 23:18.14 | NightHawkTheSane | fuck pants. |
| 23:20.02 | Dagmar | "Now on sale at Old Navy," |
| 23:20.22 | Lopeppeppy | Or "Sluts R Us" |
| 23:21.08 | Dagmar | I wouldn't mind their commercials so much if their clothes didn't basically dissolve in the wash. |
| 23:22.22 | Lopeppeppy | My cat is doing her vampire impression, with her paw held up to her eyes, peeking out over it with a shifty expression. So adorable. |
| 23:30.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Norsken (n=xkxaxn@84-217-9-130.tn.glocalnet.net) |
| 23:31.52 | Dagmar | Man this is crazy. Since I IP-blocked all of Korea, China, Japan, and Russia, I actually see --MARK-- output in syslog again |
| 23:38.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen (n=Sixen@173-25-22-158.client.mchsi.com) |
| 23:38.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Or you could just change the ssh port :) |
| 23:39.36 | Tepel | That be hard! |
| 23:40.00 | Tepel | Besides, it's not like they'll be guessing the password right |
| 23:40.25 | Tepel | The last time someone entered a server of ours it was due to a bug in webmail software |
| 23:46.36 | Dagmar | Let me know when you guys start spending some time doing real traffic monitoring. |
| 23:46.50 | Dagmar | I was logging all unclassifiable traffic. |
| 23:47.11 | Dagmar | I can goddamn well run services on any port I like. |
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| 23:49.46 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (i=harl@dslb-088-076-042-034.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
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| 23:59.54 | haste | Bruners: awesome, I crashed it! |
