| 00:00.10 | Legorol | Hm, this is a weird feeling. I never in my WoW career had the game "cleared" before... |
| 00:00.11 | Legorol | and now I have. |
| 00:00.21 | End | for a few weeks at least |
| 00:00.23 | End | :P |
| 00:00.25 | kd3 | sarth+3 or just sarth+0? |
| 00:01.47 | Kimmeh | Sartharion and his minions are turds |
| 00:01.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute-Away (i=Rupert@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 00:02.55 | Hirsute-Away | .... |
| 00:02.56 | Hirsute-Away | Wow. That's rather large there. |
| 00:03.16 | Kimmeh | ;) |
| 00:04.37 | Syzgyn | Grats Legorol :) |
| 00:06.01 | Legorol | kd3: +3 |
| 00:06.17 | Kimmeh | Thats hardcore man! |
| 00:06.24 | Legorol | Syzgyn: thank |
| 00:06.33 | End | did you get 6min maly too ;-) |
| 00:06.45 | Legorol | Kimmeh: "hardcore" in the "plays a shitton of WoW" sense, or "hardcore" in the "that's actually difficult" sense |
| 00:06.59 | Legorol | End: that's an achievement, I don't quite consider achievements as content |
| 00:07.02 | Legorol | I know that some people do |
| 00:07.16 | Legorol | if you do include 6 min Maly though, you would have to start counting all the way up to the Glory achis |
| 00:08.05 | Kimmeh | Legorol hardcore as its tough and gives the players some run for their money :) |
| 00:09.10 | Hirsute | So... is the foo = bar or baz syntax applicable to something like this: local function myfunc(...) ab, cd, ef = ... or gh, ij, kl end ? |
| 00:09.37 | Hirsute | I'm guessing no, but it would be nice if I'm wrong. |
| 00:09.42 | End | Legorol: I think it's an extention of completing the game. |
| 00:09.52 | End | kinda like how I always finish the main missions in GTA |
| 00:09.56 | End | but never get 100% |
| 00:10.35 | mikma | end: minigames :( |
| 00:10.35 | Legorol | End: right, that's a fair way to look at it. |
| 00:10.47 | End | indeed |
| 00:10.58 | Legorol | Achievements are part of the game, I wouldn't consider them content, just a more skillful/perfect way of doing said content. |
| 00:11.11 | End | well, you didn't say content though |
| 00:11.23 | Legorol | you are right, i used the word "cleared" |
| 00:11.25 | End | if we're saying content, I think you arguably could say sarth+0 counts |
| 00:11.34 | Legorol | however, I coudln't have meant having done every possible achievement... that'd be insane :) |
| 00:11.38 | Zootfizzle | I finished 100% of some minigames in Saints Row 2 and never really got far in the story |
| 00:11.47 | Zootfizzle | I think what matters is having what with what you're doing |
| 00:12.03 | Legorol | End: I'd disagree there. The nature of the encounter changes drastically when you have drakes up, so that's content. |
| 00:12.09 | Zootfizzle | s/having with/having fun with/ |
| 00:12.18 | Hirsute | I was just about to ask you what you meant. |
| 00:12.19 | Zootfizzle | having what with even! |
| 00:12.20 | Zootfizzle | Sheesh xD |
| 00:12.22 | Hirsute | Makes much more snese that way. |
| 00:12.24 | Legorol | Achievements don't change the encounter, just put restrictions on you. |
| 00:12.29 | Kimmeh | It's not to far fetched to think that achievements will be required to buy things or gain access to areas with quests etc |
| 00:12.30 | Zootfizzle | I was so deep I left out the important part |
| 00:12.32 | Legorol | End: also there's more loot of higher level if you do +3 |
| 00:12.39 | End | Legorol: I'm not sure where to draw the line though |
| 00:12.51 | End | well, it ends at +2 |
| 00:12.54 | Legorol | End, true, it's arguable |
| 00:12.58 | End | the drake is +3 |
| 00:13.04 | End | but that's not really "higher level" |
| 00:13.10 | Legorol | true |
| 00:13.32 | Legorol | I think +3 is different enough in terms of encounter/strategy from +2 that it does count |
| 00:13.37 | Legorol | that's personal opinion :) |
| 00:13.52 | Legorol | Arguably if you have seen and killed every boss in game right now, you have also "cleared" the game. |
| 00:13.52 | End | I'd certainly classify it as progression |
| 00:14.06 | Legorol | that's a good way to look at it, by looking at progression |
| 00:14.17 | Legorol | but then again achis would count as progresison too in a way |
| 00:14.26 | End | yeah, even 6min maly :P |
| 00:14.58 | Legorol | so it's hard to draw the line |
| 00:15.02 | End | I agree |
| 00:15.24 | Legorol | would you consider 6 min maly as content? and contrasting it with +3? |
| 00:15.29 | Legorol | where would you personally draw the line? |
| 00:15.45 | Legorol | (for the record, we have done a number of achis, like 8-man Maly etc., we are a bit short on 6 min) |
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| 00:17.49 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 00:18.07 | End | I didn't orginally count 6min maly |
| 00:18.12 | End | but I might now, I dunno |
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| 00:19.44 | End | (in the very least, I think you can call it progression) |
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| 00:46.50 | mikma | so, fellow dvd movie backuppers... name your favorite (free?) dvd 1:1 copy software :) |
| 00:48.46 | tekkub | we just use dvddecrypter |
| 00:48.57 | tekkub | rip to an ISO, delete it after it's watched |
| 00:49.14 | Kimmeh | handbreak, might only be for mac tho |
| 00:49.21 | mikma | well i need to burn it to dvd+r too |
| 00:49.21 | tekkub | so we're not really backuppers, we just buffer it on the HDD for a few days/weeks/years |
| 00:51.07 | Kimmeh | http://handbrake.fr/ should be good for ripping dvds |
| 00:57.29 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 00:57.31 | tekkub | damn snoring cats |
| 00:57.58 | tem | okay |
| 00:58.03 | tem | hot streak is awesome |
| 00:58.15 | tem | but it needs a new sound effect like nobody's business |
| 01:01.58 | End | GRATZ MAGE |
| 01:02.01 | NeoTron | grr can't connect to WoW all of a sudden, and got kicked out |
| 01:02.01 | End | ;-p |
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| 01:04.37 | kd3 | whee at bnet breaking things again |
| 01:05.33 | NeoTron | well I suppose there's always the PTR |
| 01:06.10 | *** join/#wowuidev kagaro (n=washu@cpe-098-026-067-218.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 01:06.38 | *** join/#wowuidev kagaro (n=washu@cpe-098-026-067-218.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 01:06.49 | foxlit | " It's quite likely in such a case that the Troubleshooters will all end up shooting each other for treason against Friend Computer, since none of them are allowed to touch the paint, go near the hallway, or talk about their mission, and they're all charged with enforcing the rules on one another." |
| 01:07.02 | foxlit | http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php seems interesting in an unrelated sort of way |
| 01:08.01 | Aqua | anyone else having issues wiht battle.net accounts and login |
| 01:08.09 | Aqua | i got kicked and can't relog |
| 01:08.20 | kd3 | it's busted for everyone bnet-merged |
| 01:08.28 | Aqua | so its not just me thenm |
| 01:08.33 | Aqua | alright, well, now what |
| 01:08.42 | kd3 | go make a sammich |
| 01:08.53 | Aqua | i just took a nap, ate dinner, took a shower |
| 01:09.07 | Syzgyn | why is this happening again? |
| 01:09.13 | Aqua | because blizzard is dumb |
| 01:09.13 | Syzgyn | 2 nights in a row at the same time |
| 01:09.19 | kd3 | bnet auth servers are fail |
| 01:09.50 | NeoTron | I am curious why it kicked me off |
| 01:10.03 | NeoTron | like normally auth issues doesn't affect you if you're already logged in |
| 01:12.28 | NeoTron | ah could log in again |
| 01:12.35 | kd3 | hey, it's fixed |
| 01:12.42 | kd3 | yay for percussive maintenance |
| 01:21.37 | Aqua | yea its fixed |
| 01:21.39 | Aqua | cool beans |
| 01:22.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Kirov (n=Kirov@c-67-160-8-181.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 01:25.54 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3|hate`net (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 01:27.13 | foxlit | something that bugs me about the new animation system: can it actually ignore the visibility of the original frame? |
| 01:27.40 | Zootfizzle | Define ignore |
| 01:27.43 | foxlit | (i.e. suppose you'd want to hide a frame in response to something... but you'd like to animate the hiding transition) |
| 01:28.12 | Zootfizzle | You can hide the frame at the end of the animation |
| 01:28.44 | foxlit | Suppose the frame is secure. |
| 01:28.44 | kd3 | raah |
| 01:28.50 | kd3 | fumes at bnet auth |
| 01:28.54 | foxlit | s/secire/protected/ |
| 01:29.31 | foxlit | If I can hide it after an animation, which has some arbitrary duration, I can use that to introduce timers into the restricted environments. |
| 01:29.33 | Zootfizzle | You'd need to ask Iriel or Alestane for an authoritative answer, but I'm pretty sure we specifically support what you're mentioning, and that there are limitations on how secure frames can animate |
| 01:29.58 | kd3 | dammit, auth! let me in! |
| 01:30.14 | kd3 | kicks the login server from halfway across the continent |
| 01:30.15 | Zootfizzle | dammit, auth, let kd3 in! |
| 01:30.48 | mikma | heres a interesting question for all: whats the actual difference between gnome / kde ? =) |
| 01:31.06 | Legorol | mikma: gnome is a race in WoW, kde isn't |
| 01:31.15 | Zootfizzle | The latter is an acronym, the former is a lifestyle |
| 01:31.19 | foxlit | Mm. My understanding was that the animations are largely insecure as they do not actually affect the interaction rectangles. Perhaps there's more to that. |
| 01:31.33 | mikma | legorol: haha |
| 01:31.41 | kd3 | apples and oranges. seraphim9 |
| 01:31.47 | Zootfizzle | You can affect the interaction rectangle, but only at the end of an animation |
| 01:32.00 | Legorol | foxlit: that's correct. So any hiding you can do, you can do regardless of any animations. No more, no less. |
| 01:32.15 | Legorol | That's how I understand it. |
| 01:32.22 | mikma | Also yay gnomes, leveling my 3rd now =D still missing a healer-gnome =( |
| 01:32.33 | Zootfizzle | mikma: I know =/ |
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| 01:32.52 | Legorol | Zootfizzle: yes please campaign for a gnome paladin! |
| 01:33.02 | mikma | gnome shaman would be funny |
| 01:33.09 | mikma | totems would be toothpicks |
| 01:33.13 | Legorol | probably more realistic than a gnome paladin |
| 01:33.16 | Kirov | gnome hunter |
| 01:33.33 | Kirov | then let gnome hunters ride their pets |
| 01:33.45 | Zootfizzle | I can only hope the Hyperdimensional Research Team breaches the Paranormalitic Barrier into naturespace |
| 01:33.51 | mikma | i miss my *cough* gomepriest |
| 01:33.54 | Dark_Elf | frankly i think blizzard should make all the classes available to the races |
| 01:34.12 | mikma | tauren rogues |
| 01:36.40 | foxlit | Legorol: the problem is in the timing |
| 01:36.44 | tekkub | tauren pallies ^^ |
| 01:37.02 | mikma | everyone keeps telling me female gnome dk has scary voice |
| 01:37.13 | kd3 | it's hilarious |
| 01:37.14 | foxlit | Legorol: I can hide a protected frame when responding to user input in some form of securehandler. |
| 01:37.15 | mikma | thats why i always /giggle around |
| 01:37.26 | mikma | its the only one that had sound out of party |
| 01:37.40 | mikma | has* |
| 01:37.59 | kd3 | oh, hell |
| 01:38.03 | foxlit | Legorol: I can't hide a protected frame from a script I define, however -- so :SetScript("OnAnimationFinished") would just give me a tainted execution path if I call :Hide() from there |
| 01:38.12 | kd3 | changes a password |
| 01:38.13 | Legorol | foxlit: yah |
| 01:38.40 | foxlit | [that's OnFinished rather than OnAnimationFinished] |
| 01:39.01 | Legorol | foxlit: if i remember right, there's a mechanism for hiding something at the end of the animation, where the animation is triggered by user input, such that you can't avoid or alter the hiding |
| 01:39.15 | Legorol | but i don't know how |
| 01:40.11 | foxlit | Legorol: which leads me to my conclusion: you can't animate hiding protected frames. |
| 01:40.40 | Legorol | can't you, in response to user input? |
| 01:40.42 | foxlit | Searching Zoot's change summaries for "hid" yields nothing. |
| 01:40.48 | Legorol | i'm theorising |
| 01:41.22 | foxlit | You can :Hide() the frame on user input if you want to, but I'd presume that'd prevent you from seeing any animation. |
| 01:41.54 | Legorol | yeah but there was something with state headers |
| 01:41.57 | foxlit | I haven't seen anything to indicate that there's a mechanism to hide a *protected* frame when an animation completes, but, then again, I haven't seen a lot of things. |
| 01:41.59 | Legorol | wishes he understood it better |
| 01:42.47 | foxlit | Headers are (mostly) gone. |
| 01:43.07 | Legorol | yeah the new stuff that replace sthem |
| 01:43.12 | Legorol | i'm just kibitzing when it comes to these things :) |
| 01:43.14 | foxlit | which means it was probably Handlers. |
| 01:43.16 | Zootfizzle | foxlit: Also, keep in mind that we just added the animation system |
| 01:43.40 | Zootfizzle | We could have waited to expose it until we'd thought of more that it could be used for and built it in |
| 01:43.58 | Zootfizzle | We specifically decided to release it for 3.1 because this helps us quickly identify what would be best for us to work on for everyone involved with the system |
| 01:44.21 | foxlit | Zootfizzle: yeah. I'm not too bothered -- just something that occurred randomly. |
| 01:44.34 | Zootfizzle | Good :D |
| 01:44.48 | Zootfizzle | Thanks for mentioning it here, I'll bring it up tomorrow! |
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| 01:45.14 | foxlit | As far as I can see, the best solution would be to allow animations to ignore the hidden status. |
| 01:45.39 | foxlit | You *can't* allow hiding protected frames on animation completion. |
| 01:46.35 | Legorol | or to generalise from that: you should be able to make changes to the interaction rect so that it is already the final form, when an animation starts. |
| 01:46.40 | Legorol | yet the animation would still go ahead |
| 01:47.19 | foxlit | (Animations have a duration; hiding protected frames triggers OnHide; OnHide is wrappable; ergo, if you can hide a protected frame on animation completion, you can execute restricted environment code after a particular delay, which is what the removal of timers was about) |
| 01:50.22 | mikma | trying to sleep when you have heartburn.... |
| 01:50.54 | foxlit | wonders what heartburn has to do with hearts. |
| 01:51.37 | mikma | maybe because it feels like your heart is burning |
| 01:57.06 | Zootfizzle | foxlit: That only works if you can change the duration or trigger the animation |
| 01:57.15 | Zootfizzle | AFAIK |
| 01:57.49 | foxlit | I don't think :Start() is protected in any fashion |
| 01:58.38 | kd3 | 32 slot herb bag, I choose you! |
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| 02:01.28 | sacarasc | steals kd3's bag. |
| 02:01.47 | Xinhuan | wouldn't be an issue if :Start() is protected on secure frames, unprotected on non-secure ones |
| 02:02.38 | Xinhuan | in the first place, i don't think you can animate a secure frame |
| 02:03.14 | Xinhuan | the docs said soemthing about the clickable area not moving |
| 02:03.48 | foxlit | Xinhuan: nah, that wouldn't solve anything |
| 02:04.32 | foxlit | If :Start() is protected for secure frames, I must be able to call it from restricted environments in some fashion, or protected frames can't be animated by addons at all. |
| 02:06.02 | Legorol | noob question: what's the difference between a secure frame and a protected frame? |
| 02:06.17 | foxlit | There isn't one. |
| 02:06.18 | Zootfizzle | Protected frames can be insecure |
| 02:06.31 | Zootfizzle | It's like the difference between a whole egg and a broken egg :P |
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| 02:06.38 | Legorol | :) |
| 02:06.38 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik|AFK] by ChanServ |
| 02:07.19 | Legorol | I thought that the term "secure" applied to API functions, references, closures and execution paths |
| 02:07.26 | Legorol | whereas "protected" applied to frames |
| 02:07.34 | Legorol | do i have it the wrong way around? |
| 02:07.39 | foxlit | protected has a specific meaning when applied to frames |
| 02:07.58 | Legorol | right, a protected frame can't be fiddled with in combat |
| 02:08.04 | Legorol | but is there such a thing as a "secure frame"? |
| 02:08.05 | foxlit | Exactly. |
| 02:08.16 | tekkub | protected functions can't be called from tainted code |
| 02:08.26 | tekkub | secure frames allow addons to do some things without taint |
| 02:08.27 | Legorol | gah, terminology is exploding my head :) |
| 02:08.33 | Zootfizzle | It's the XML attribute we use to designate what frames are designed to operate within the context of the security system |
| 02:08.59 | Legorol | I used to understand this stuff once.. a long time ago.. and now i'm confused :) |
| 02:09.04 | foxlit | "secure frame" generally implies nothing that you'd consider useful. |
| 02:09.29 | foxlit | Since most things do not care whether the frame is secure (untainted) or not. |
| 02:09.30 | Legorol | foxlit: but is there such a thing as a "secure frame"? and is it different from a "protected frame"? |
| 02:09.33 | Xinhuan | well is the animation system designed to be used with secure frames? |
| 02:09.45 | Xinhuan | that's the first question |
| 02:10.00 | Legorol | if you are using the word "secure" in relation to taint, then I don't understand how a frame can be secure |
| 02:10.19 | Legorol | as I said, I thought only API functions, references, closures and the execution path can be secure |
| 02:10.22 | Xinhuan | by secure, i mean protected |
| 02:10.35 | foxlit | Legorol: no. Interpret "secure" as "not tainted". Whenever someone says "secure frame", they probably mean "protected frame" |
| 02:10.49 | Legorol | ok, my main problem here is terminology :) |
| 02:10.59 | Xinhuan | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?sid=1&topicId=15443414368 |
| 02:11.01 | tekkub | when I say "secure frame" I mean one that inherits from SecureFrameTemplate |
| 02:11.03 | tekkub | :P~~~ |
| 02:11.04 | Legorol | so there is no such thing as secure frame then? and i was right and people use terminology wrong? |
| 02:11.04 | Zootfizzle | Which is only useful in the context of "protected frame that's not tainted" |
| 02:11.05 | Xinhuan | post 6 seems to indicate to me that |
| 02:11.11 | Xinhuan | a protected frame can't be animated |
| 02:11.13 | foxlit | It's further confounded by the various Secure*Templates |
| 02:11.27 | Xinhuan | at least, not in the way a programmer would expect it |
| 02:11.35 | Zootfizzle | That's why I think "secure frame" works |
| 02:11.57 | tekkub | it's only confusing if you overthink it |
| 02:12.02 | Zootfizzle | ^ |
| 02:12.29 | kd3 | the hell? |
| 02:12.30 | tekkub | there's blizzy's frames, addon frames that can do blizzy things, and addon frames that can't |
| 02:12.31 | Legorol | Zootfizzle: i'm going to nitpick here, but i don't understand "protected frame that's not tainted". You mean the reference to the frame is tainted? |
| 02:12.33 | kd3 | billy mays on discovery channel? |
| 02:12.49 | Legorol | or one or more script handler of the frame is tainted? (or a combination of these) |
| 02:12.55 | tekkub | you can do shit to a frame that taints it and breaks it |
| 02:13.09 | foxlit | Xinhuan: depends on what you mean by "animated" of course. |
| 02:13.14 | Legorol | tekkub: please read what I typed. Please someone explain to me what you mean by a "tinated frame" |
| 02:13.19 | Legorol | *tainted |
| 02:13.31 | Zootfizzle | The reference to the frame |
| 02:13.35 | tekkub | go move the target frame in combat from an addon |
| 02:13.38 | tekkub | you just tainted it |
| 02:13.50 | Legorol | thank you Zootfizzle |
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| 02:14.15 | Legorol | tekkub: a "frame" is not a Lua entity that can be tainted, at best the reference to it. That's my understanding |
| 02:14.55 | tekkub | if you're going to do the "frame isn't an lua entity" shit (overthinking) then just stop using the word "frame" when talking about addons :P |
| 02:15.02 | Zootfizzle | I understand what tekkub is saying |
| 02:15.31 | tekkub | a frame, as far as we're concerned, is a ref to the stuff off in C-space |
| 02:15.50 | Xinhuan | rolls his eyes |
| 02:15.57 | Legorol | tekkub: i generally find that overthinking things does eventually put everything in a neat, orderly place, thereby giving a complete understanding of the interaction of things :) for me at least |
| 02:15.59 | End | rolls Xinhuan's eyes too. |
| 02:16.00 | Zootfizzle | It's like the difference between thinking about a part and how the part is made. For all intents and purposes from the environment there is no difference between tainting the reference to the frame that's exposed to the environment and tainting the entire frame |
| 02:16.17 | tekkub | stabs Xinhuan's eyes |
| 02:16.28 | Xinhuan | also when the trade channel has devolved into 20% casino spam, you know blizz should revert that idiotic casino unban |
| 02:16.29 | foxlit | Meh. Any frame I create is tainted by the virtue of being created by me, yet they can still function. |
| 02:16.33 | Zootfizzle | tries to heal Xinhuan's eyes, but is a gnome |
| 02:16.49 | tekkub | wait what, they unbanned casinos? |
| 02:16.53 | Xinhuan | yes tekkub |
| 02:16.55 | End | apparently |
| 02:16.56 | Zootfizzle | foxlit: Except the parts you inherit from frames we say are protected aren't tainted |
| 02:17.01 | tekkub | Zootfizzle: you're fired |
| 02:17.16 | End | more like fried |
| 02:17.19 | Zootfizzle | tekkub: Troll :P |
| 02:17.22 | Xinhuan | tekkub: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864858843&pageNo=2&sid=1#30 |
| 02:17.24 | foxlit | Zootfizzle: of course, but that makes tainting the reference mean very little at all. |
| 02:17.26 | Xinhuan | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14990946298&pageNo=1&sid=1#12 |
| 02:17.29 | Xinhuan | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15659708662&postId=156095231087&sid=1#5 |
| 02:17.32 | Xinhuan | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15673098370&postId=156198210973&sid=1#39 |
| 02:17.33 | tekkub | Zootfizzle: no, tauren |
| 02:17.34 | foxlit | You'd have to actively taint something those handlers used. |
| 02:17.57 | Zootfizzle | Because it has nothing to do with the frame. |
| 02:18.08 | Legorol | All right, I decided. One of these days I'm going to actually understand this stuff properly and get the terminology right in my head :) |
| 02:18.26 | foxlit | Which brings me to the conclusion that "tainted frame" is a relatively meaningless expression. |
| 02:18.47 | tekkub | Zootfizzle: whoever that blue is that undid the ban, we want you to go hunt him down and kick him in the nuts |
| 02:18.53 | Zootfizzle | I think of it in the same way that I think of quantum mechanics. |
| 02:19.01 | Zootfizzle | For that reason I'm not going to try and explain it anymore |
| 02:19.08 | Zootfizzle | Maybe by BlizzCon I can come up with a better analogy |
| 02:19.36 | Legorol | Zootfizzle: since i'm a theoretical physicist who deals with quantum mechanics as a day job, i should have no problem understanding secure frames then :) |
| 02:19.36 | Xinhuan | don't bother Zootfizzle, it doesn't make a difference ;p |
| 02:19.37 | foxlit | cheers for frames being both tainted and secure at the same time, as long as no one is checking. |
| 02:20.25 | tekkub | understanding taint: http://abstrusegoose.com/93 |
| 02:20.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaralx2 (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 02:23.38 | kd3 | sounds about right to me |
| 02:26.18 | Legorol | I found the link of all secureness: http://www.wowwiki.com/Secure_Execution_and_Tainting |
| 02:26.27 | Legorol | the terminology is summarised at the bottom, now I'm happy |
| 02:26.34 | Legorol | I knew it was written down somewhere |
| 02:27.08 | foxlit | while you're happy, consider this: is it values that carry taint, or variables? |
| 02:27.13 | Legorol | TLDR: API functions and frames can be protected, but not secure. Execution path, Lua values, functions, closures, handlers etc. can be secure, put not protected. |
| 02:27.30 | Legorol | foxlit: values and references, not variables. |
| 02:27.35 | Legorol | as far as I understand |
| 02:27.55 | Legorol | eg. x = 2 will make the variable x contain a tainted 2. |
| 02:28.32 | foxlit | I'd pin the taint on the variable rather than the value, but that's also what you're doing anyway. |
| 02:28.47 | foxlit | since your tainted 2 == someone else's secure 2 |
| 02:28.48 | Legorol | in Lua, a variable can contain a value or a reference, and either of those can be tainted. |
| 02:29.23 | Legorol | the reason I'm attributing the taint to the value or the reference, and not the variable, is considering where the taint flag is stored in the underlying implementation of Lua |
| 02:29.46 | Legorol | a variable is just a pointer to a data structure, and the taint flag is stored in that structure |
| 02:30.15 | foxlit | local x = "cat" |
| 02:30.18 | Legorol | this is clearer if you consider the compiled Lua code, which doesn't even have variables |
| 02:30.24 | foxlit | Clearly, "cat" is only stored in one place. |
| 02:30.30 | foxlit | Did I just taint every "cat"? :) |
| 02:30.43 | Legorol | nope, but you did taint the particular reference to "cat" that x holds |
| 02:30.57 | Legorol | bear in mind that strings are stored by reference, not by value |
| 02:31.06 | Legorol | since the actual "cat" is in the string table |
| 02:31.34 | foxlit | You're right. But I like my metaphor more. Which puts me in an untenable position. |
| 02:31.38 | Legorol | when you consider how local variables are implemented in the virtual machine, they are just registers |
| 02:32.18 | Xinhuan | actually local variables exist on the stack. up to 200 of them |
| 02:32.25 | Legorol | foxlit: the metaphor is not great, because you can have references to things without having variables |
| 02:32.39 | Legorol | for example: t[function() end] = "helo" |
| 02:32.54 | Legorol | this table has a funny key, and a tainted value |
| 02:33.18 | foxlit | tainted key, too. |
| 02:33.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110| (i=Matrix11@pD957F65B.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:33.27 | Legorol | Xinhuan: right, they are on the stack, but they are registers, as any of them can be accessed at any time |
| 02:33.53 | Legorol | the Lua VM is a register-based machine where the registers live on the stack |
| 02:34.01 | Legorol | 'tis my understanding |
| 02:34.40 | Legorol | anyway, back to AddOn land :) |
| 02:35.00 | Xinhuan | well HOW its implemented doesn't matter to us |
| 02:35.03 | Dark_Elf | damn wow is laggy tonite |
| 02:35.08 | Legorol | that's true Xinhuan |
| 02:35.09 | foxlit | Just prefer thinking at a bit higher level than Lua implementation details :) |
| 02:35.21 | Legorol | although knowing a little more about the implementation details help figure out edge cses |
| 02:35.27 | Zootfizzle | Which is why I think of it like quantum mechanics :) |
| 02:36.16 | Legorol | it's not very useful to know, but intellectually satisfying nevertheless, that references to functions and their closures can be tainted separately |
| 02:36.31 | *** join/#wowuidev malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-177-118-15.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 02:36.50 | Legorol | coming back to frames |
| 02:36.56 | foxlit | glances at the clock in horror. |
| 02:37.08 | Legorol | i take it that in common use, a "secure frame" refers to a protected frame that inherited one of the secure templates? |
| 02:37.14 | Zootfizzle | thinks foxlit needs timestamps in chat :) |
| 02:37.49 | foxlit | has timestamps in chat. They're conveniently anchored to the right side of the page and grayed out so you don't notice them. |
| 02:38.11 | foxlit | Legorol: means whatever people intend it to mean, I'm afraid. |
| 02:38.33 | foxlit | Just go with "protected". You can infer whether they inherit from secure templates by other contextual hints. |
| 02:39.01 | Zootfizzle | Sounds like a time-watermark! |
| 02:39.20 | Legorol | foxlit: that's what i prefer too, the whole discussion started because someone was using "secure frame" i think |
| 02:40.17 | Xinhuan | don't overthink it ~_~ |
| 02:40.36 | Xinhuan | a frame is only called a SECURE frame because it inherits from something called a SECUREHEADER |
| 02:40.45 | Legorol | Xinhuan: i didn't, i thought about it just the right amount to understand things now and be happy with it :) |
| 02:41.01 | Xinhuan | secure otherwise has no meaning at all when applied to frames |
| 02:41.20 | Legorol | Xinhuan: which is what i said 3 minutes ago, as a conclusion :) |
| 02:41.25 | Legorol | <Legorol> i take it that in common use, a "secure frame" refers to a protected frame that inherited one of the secure templates? |
| 02:42.04 | Xinhuan | its just easy to confuse the 3 entirely different concepts though: secure, protected and taint |
| 02:42.27 | Legorol | which is why i now made sure that i understand the concepts clearly and can distinguish them |
| 02:43.00 | Legorol | The terminology is confusing at best. Didn't hurt to have a recap. Last time I was clear on it completely was in TBC Alpha :) |
| 02:43.03 | foxlit | scrolls up far enough to realize *he* used secure and protected interchangeably in the same line. |
| 02:43.19 | Legorol | yes you did, which is why i started questioning :) |
| 02:43.35 | foxlit | I think I promptly told you that I was an idiot. Not sure what the other half hour was spent on :) |
| 02:43.48 | Legorol | it was spent on me revising my understanding of the terminology |
| 02:43.55 | Legorol | and bringing it up to speed with current common usage |
| 02:45.00 | Legorol | To me it was useful and productive exercise. I apologise if it was wasted time for anyone else, if it's any consolation I learnt from it. |
| 02:45.40 | Zootfizzle | It's fine, I just hate you |
| 02:46.16 | Legorol | :) |
| 02:46.19 | Legorol | even if i love gnomes? |
| 02:46.52 | Zootfizzle | How about... |
| 02:46.55 | Zootfizzle | ...sprockets? |
| 02:48.38 | Zootfizzle | :) |
| 03:05.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 03:05.30 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 03:06.09 | Shirik | :( |
| 03:06.13 | Shirik | left my car lights on |
| 03:06.18 | End | fail |
| 03:07.07 | Duman | hmm |
| 03:20.10 | kmcguire | Zoot, I am going to destroy you soon. |
| 03:20.13 | kd3 | oh wow |
| 03:20.14 | kd3 | wtf |
| 03:20.24 | kd3 | we were in p2 on maly and he lands and comes down to melee us |
| 03:20.34 | kd3 | bugged content is bugged |
| 03:22.20 | kmcguire | And, then I am going to get Shirik with my microsoft ship. |
| 03:23.45 | Shirik | yeah ok |
| 03:23.48 | Shirik | good luck with that |
| 03:24.23 | Shirik | I'm not sure if you realize this |
| 03:24.34 | Shirik | My ship is the most powerful in the game |
| 03:24.37 | Shirik | and it's fully stocked |
| 03:24.50 | Shirik | so, unless you have some crazy trick up your sleeve |
| 03:24.55 | Shirik | I would advise you to stay away |
| 03:24.58 | Zootfizzle | kmcguire: What Shirik said. You can attack me if you want to play at pirate |
| 03:25.11 | Zootfizzle | But if you're a good bad guy, you'll try and defeat him |
| 03:26.16 | Zootfizzle | The enemy of my enemy isn't my enemy yet. |
| 03:26.32 | kd3 | seriously. what the hell kind of bug is that? |
| 03:26.36 | kd3 | fires off an annoyed email |
| 03:29.19 | Zootfizzle | plots its trajectory |
| 03:30.16 | sacarasc | kd3: Get any screen shots? |
| 03:30.30 | kd3 | a little too shocked, sadly |
| 03:30.35 | kd3 | should've |
| 03:32.45 | kd3 | oh, while I'm thinking about it... why are there two "Other" sections in Alchemy? |
| 03:32.56 | tekkub | happens a lot |
| 03:33.23 | tekkub | the tradskill sections just suck prettymuch all-around |
| 03:36.43 | tekkub | okey... installing macport's scite when I've had nothing else using macports... bad idea |
| 03:37.04 | tekkub | it's installing like every lib it can find >< |
| 03:37.11 | Zootfizzle | You like some bad ideas |
| 03:37.40 | Zootfizzle | "bad" :P |
| 03:38.33 | tekkub | I have no idea what you're talking about |
| 03:44.02 | *** join/#wowuidev durcyn (n=durcyn@70.114.131.185) |
| 03:45.47 | NeoTron | so err. I guess sending WHISPER messages with a |cffxxxxxxfoo|r kicks you out of wow |
| 03:46.06 | tekkub | you can't send code in chat, besides links |
| 03:46.19 | NeoTron | so.. I noticed |
| 03:46.25 | tekkub | *pipe escaped strings |
| 03:46.50 | NeoTron | so much for nicely formatted whisper text :P |
| 03:46.54 | Zootfizzle | Let's just say that it was abused! |
| 03:47.38 | NeoTron | fair enough... although I like it being denied rather than kicking me off better :P |
| 03:47.57 | Zootfizzle | Yeah. |
| 03:48.12 | Zootfizzle | Hmm |
| 03:48.27 | NeoTron | took me a while to figure it out. of course better yet would be official docs from Blizzard that mention such things... /hint |
| 03:48.34 | kd3 | docs? |
| 03:48.36 | kd3 | what are those? |
| 03:48.52 | Zootfizzle | Here's one: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15443414368&sid=1 |
| 03:49.25 | Zootfizzle | What I mean to say is, we're working on it kd3! |
| 03:49.57 | kd3 | gasps |
| 03:52.01 | Sixen | Soon(TM). |
| 03:52.12 | NeoTron | Sixen: Ulduar? ;-) |
| 03:52.15 | kd3 | resumes not holding his breath |
| 03:52.27 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ |
| 03:52.34 | Sixen | What, Neo? |
| 03:52.43 | Zootfizzle | Some now, more later is better than soon! |
| 03:52.46 | Sixen | Do I want to run Ulduar? =O. |
| 03:52.51 | Sixen | Zoot: Kidding, of course, :P. |
| 03:53.48 | kmcguire | Who is Sboz? |
| 03:53.53 | ScytheBlade1 | <-- |
| 03:54.09 | kmcguire | ScytheBlade1, whos guild are you in? |
| 03:54.15 | Sixen | O_O. PTR Guilds? |
| 03:54.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Zoot's/Cog's |
| 03:54.20 | ScytheBlade1 | No, Sixen |
| 03:54.21 | NeoTron | Sixen: you said Soon(TM) and I was hoping it was Ulduar. |
| 03:54.32 | NeoTron | ready for more than one night of immortal pain and quick boss clears |
| 03:54.51 | kmcguire | I am confused. I thought zoot was in Yar. |
| 03:54.52 | Torhal | NeoTron: I thought Uldum was Soon(TM) |
| 03:55.02 | Zootfizzle | I'm in Hell Gnomes |
| 03:55.13 | ScytheBlade1 | Same here |
| 03:55.18 | ScytheBlade1 | ... man that'd be a good WoW guild name |
| 03:55.28 | Zootfizzle | I was a good guy, now I'm a bad guy |
| 03:55.36 | Zootfizzle | I felt oppressed by boredom |
| 03:55.52 | NeoTron | hrm. chat filter time |
| 03:55.54 | kmcguire | Oh |
| 03:56.11 | Shirik | Zootfizzle is a bad man |
| 03:56.18 | Shirik | he shall pay for his treason |
| 03:56.32 | Shirik | I should have destroyed him when I had the chance |
| 03:56.37 | kmcguire | Yeah, thats what got me confused. |
| 03:57.29 | Zootfizzle | Shirik: I paid in advance |
| 03:57.35 | Zootfizzle | Now I'm making a withdrawal |
| 03:57.38 | Zootfizzle | </HanSolo> |
| 03:58.09 | Sixen | Oh lawl, Neo. |
| 04:14.40 | NeoTron | Immortal: Killing guilds _without_ the use of impossibly hard bosses! |
| 04:14.50 | kd3 | yup |
| 04:19.04 | kmcguire | Zoot, are you just randomly flying around? I swear. You popup everywhere. Am I bugged with a tracking mine? |
| 04:20.09 | Zootfizzle | I destroyed some NPCs and now I'm selling their ships :P |
| 04:23.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Exawatt (n=chatzill@c-68-32-185-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 04:24.14 | kmcguire | Ah |
| 04:24.24 | kmcguire | Well, That is good news. |
| 04:31.03 | Exawatt | Is there an order required for event handlers in XML? |
| 04:31.19 | Zootfizzle | Technically |
| 04:31.33 | ScytheBlade1 | According to the XSD, yes |
| 04:31.38 | ScytheBlade1 | The UI will accept them in any order however |
| 04:31.51 | Zootfizzle | Thank you ScytheBlade1 :D |
| 04:31.59 | ScytheBlade1 | You are welcome ;) |
| 04:32.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Note that if you have no idea what I mean by XSD, you should either (1) learn or (2) accept that you can stick them in any order and not care |
| 04:32.54 | Exawatt | I know what it is. I just don't know how to read it. |
| 04:33.01 | ScytheBlade1 | You generally don't |
| 04:33.16 | ScytheBlade1 | You let another program help you create your XML according to the rules set within the XSD |
| 04:33.30 | ScytheBlade1 | (ie, Visual Studio) |
| 04:33.48 | Exawatt | Yeah, I'm using Notepad++ and the plugin always screams at me about missing <Size> tags in a texture. |
| 04:34.11 | ScytheBlade1 | The XSD has a bunch of rules that the UI doesn't strictly care for |
| 04:34.40 | ScytheBlade1 | But could be considered good form |
| 04:37.50 | Exawatt | I can't seem to get OnEvent to go off in my frame. Is there anything else I have to do other than the XML? |
| 04:38.32 | ScytheBlade1 | The frame have an event registered? |
| 04:38.52 | Exawatt | Guess not. |
| 04:39.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Answers that nicely then |
| 04:41.25 | Exawatt | So how/where would I register it for an event? I can't seem to find the correct information on WoWWiki... I just get lists of events. :-/ |
| 04:41.51 | ScytheBlade1 | <OnLoad> is pretty common |
| 04:42.13 | ScytheBlade1 | <Scripts><OnLoad>self:RegisterEvent("WHATEVER_YOU_PLEASE")</OnLoad></Scripts> |
| 04:42.31 | Exawatt | Actually I need to use CHAT_MSG_ADDON to communicate the game to another player. |
| 04:42.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Then there you go |
| 04:42.54 | Exawatt | RegisterEvent() was what I was missing. Thanks. |
| 04:43.18 | ScytheBlade1 | Keep in mind that the stuff inbetween the <OnLoad>, <OnEvent> etc is just regular lua. |
| 04:43.31 | ScytheBlade1 | You register for an event with the XML just like you would with a pure lua addon |
| 04:45.00 | Exawatt | Yeah, I understand that much. I just didn't realize I had to register for the event. I just assumed all events were passed to everything, and you'd only see things happen if you set something up to happen (ie CHAT_MSG_ADDON is sent to all frames always, but only if you're looking for it will you do something about it). |
| 04:45.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Nope |
| 04:45.48 | ScytheBlade1 | You've gotta register for any event you want to get |
| 04:46.10 | Exawatt | I see now. One step closer to a working Dots game. :) |
| 04:46.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Technically you could call self:RegisterAllEvents() but |
| 04:46.18 | ScytheBlade1 | That would not be wise :) |
| 04:48.56 | Zootfizzle | Exawatt: Looking forward to seeing what you make! |
| 04:50.28 | Exawatt | I put the latest stable Minesweeper out somewhere... But that's all that's completed so far. |
| 04:50.40 | Exawatt | I was going to make at least three games to start off. |
| 04:50.44 | kd3 | wtb [Does not wish to participate in WG, let me fly over it to get to Maly quicker] switch |
| 04:51.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe22fa00-138.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 04:51.19 | NightHawkTheSane | kd3: it's called go grab yourself a beer and wait for 2-3 other suckers to summon you |
| 04:51.56 | Zootfizzle | How about a gnomish warp core that lets you fly over wg when you have it equipped? |
| 04:52.06 | Zootfizzle | If you take it off, you slip out of warp and end up where you entered it :P |
| 04:52.17 | kd3 | ooh |
| 04:52.29 | Zootfizzle | It also would have to trigger your hearth cooldown if it happened... |
| 04:52.32 | Zootfizzle | Probably |
| 04:52.36 | kd3 | probably |
| 04:52.39 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd use it |
| 04:52.44 | ScytheBlade1 | Throw it on in Dalaran |
| 04:52.45 | NightHawkTheSane | Only if I get told by a dwarf that my mount "cannae take much more of this, i'm given' 'er all i've got!" |
| 04:52.51 | ScytheBlade1 | Fly to Maly, zone in, kill Maly |
| 04:52.53 | ScytheBlade1 | Take it off, tada |
| 04:53.24 | Zootfizzle | As soon as you left WG, you'd be out of warp |
| 04:53.54 | Zootfizzle | So unless you wanted to end up where you killed Maly, it wouldn't help |
| 04:54.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Words cannot express my disappointment |
| 04:54.12 | ScytheBlade1 | =[ |
| 04:54.21 | Zootfizzle | You didn't want it to fly over WG then :( |
| 04:54.34 | ScytheBlade1 | 00:53 <@Zootfizzle> As soon as you left WG, you'd be out of warp |
| 04:54.37 | ScytheBlade1 | I totally did |
| 04:54.41 | ScytheBlade1 | But that would confine me to WG |
| 04:54.47 | ScytheBlade1 | And be profoundly useless! |
| 04:55.05 | kd3 | wahahaha @ xkcd |
| 04:55.09 | NeoTron | any solution to fly over WG would be wonderful |
| 04:55.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Tem (n=tardmrr@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 04:55.12 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Tem] by ChanServ |
| 04:55.14 | Zootfizzle | boggles |
| 04:55.18 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: yeah, it just so happens to be amazing |
| 04:55.20 | NeoTron | it's probably one of the worst design decisions in WoW |
| 04:55.30 | kd3 | but yes, definately. anything to get over wg without having to take a 5-minute detour |
| 04:55.32 | NeoTron | "let's put a giant no-fly zone right in the middle of the map" |
| 04:55.35 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: mostly the alt text |
| 04:55.44 | Zootfizzle | NeoTron: At least it's clearly labeled |
| 04:55.59 | Zootfizzle | I hated flying from Shadowmoon to Netherstorm |
| 04:56.03 | NeoTron | but you will inadvertedly fly there by mistake on the way to somewhare |
| 04:56.09 | Zootfizzle | "Close your eyes and pray you don't run into an invisible box" |
| 04:56.16 | ScytheBlade1 | meh |
| 04:56.16 | NeoTron | I didn't. "aim, go get a drink, come back" :P |
| 04:56.17 | kd3 | ya, damned invisible boxes |
| 04:56.27 | ScytheBlade1 | I got around the invisible boxes pretty well |
| 04:56.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Became second nature to me |
| 04:56.39 | NeoTron | WG is inbetween the capital and half the map |
| 04:56.50 | NightHawkTheSane | well, more like 1/3 at best |
| 04:57.01 | NeoTron | and some of the most common destinations at that - Malygos and the herbing/mining top spot |
| 04:57.04 | kd3 | and I still don't get why we can't fly above BT |
| 04:58.05 | NeoTron | on an unrelated note I also love how the flight path from Dalaran to Sholazar Basin takes the scenic all around the coastal edge of Ice Crown |
| 04:58.12 | NeoTron | like 3x the distance of a straight line |
| 04:58.36 | NightHawkTheSane | yeah. that's hilariously not funny |
| 04:58.38 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: I'm pretty darn sure that was done for lore reasons. It is a place of /evil/ and if you had a bunch of netherdrakes sitting on top, would totally lose that aura |
| 04:59.01 | Torhal | I want flying mounts in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. What would the skill be for that? "Low-Level FLying"? :P |
| 04:59.04 | kd3 | so... a bunch of netherdrakes just chilling right in front isn't evil? |
| 04:59.22 | ScytheBlade1 | You aren't "right in front" |
| 04:59.37 | kd3 | and I /still/, still, look over my shoulder every now and then flying around in icecrown |
| 04:59.39 | ScytheBlade1 | You're in front of their secondary door, entering through a crack in the wall because the front is impervious |
| 04:59.49 | kd3 | so then why isn't the citadel inside an invisible box? |
| 04:59.56 | ScytheBlade1 | er, it is? |
| 05:00.07 | NightHawkTheSane | your MOMs an invisible box |
| 05:00.14 | kd3 | is it? I'll have to check once I get out of raid |
| 05:00.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Not a rectangle, it angled downward as you approached the door |
| 05:00.23 | kd3 | was pretty sure I flew around hugging the building once |
| 05:00.23 | Zootfizzle | Because you've never seen her and you never will? |
| 05:00.35 | ScytheBlade1 | You can not fly above that door and be remotely close to it |
| 05:00.37 | NightHawkTheSane | Zootfizzle: ooh, good one |
| 05:00.44 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring_ (n=copystri@p548A22C0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 05:08.32 | Torhal | ...there's someone flying on a drake in front of the bank in Dalaran. |
| 05:09.19 | Arrowmaster | Zootfizzle: i had that invisible box just north west of kazzak clearly marked on my map until they removed it |
| 05:09.54 | Arrowmaster | were there more i didnt find? |
| 05:10.39 | kd3 | there was one between hf and smv |
| 05:10.45 | kd3 | iirc |
| 05:11.10 | kd3 | but yeah, I freaking hated the hfp->ns bblock |
| 05:11.19 | Arrowmaster | that wasnt really a box, more like the walls just came in too much |
| 05:17.36 | Shirik | today's xkcd is win |
| 05:17.49 | kd3 | slowrik is slow |
| 05:17.52 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ |
| 05:17.57 | Shirik | :( |
| 05:18.04 | ScytheBlade1 | The alt text totally makes that one too |
| 05:20.01 | Zootfizzle | The alt text is for metanerds |
| 05:20.10 | ScytheBlade1 | =[ |
| 05:21.05 | ScytheBlade1 | I used "meta" in my writing class not long ago |
| 05:21.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Pretty much everyone in there gave me a funny look |
| 05:21.16 | Zootfizzle | Did your paper transcend? |
| 05:21.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Only the teacher had a clue what I was talking about |
| 05:21.33 | ScytheBlade1 | Class discussion, though I may have thrown it in my last paper |
| 05:22.25 | *** join/#wowuidev m35 (n=m35@user-0c9h38o.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 05:24.46 | ScytheBlade1 | In any case, now you've forced my hand to include meta in my next paper |
| 05:24.57 | ScytheBlade1 | Which considering it is a literature review, should be easy |
| 05:26.10 | m35 | anyone happen to know the best way to detect if the bank bag information is available? would it be simply BankFrame:IsShown(), or is there a more reliable way? |
| 05:26.43 | ScytheBlade1 | probably |
| 05:27.05 | *** join/#wowuidev LagMonster (n=MeStinkB@ip68-105-135-156.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 05:27.09 | Zootfizzle | m35: Register for the BANKFRAME_OPEN and BANKFRAME_CLOSED events |
| 05:28.00 | ScytheBlade1 | hey that makes logical sense |
| 05:29.06 | Zootfizzle | Sorry, it's BANKFRAME_OPENED |
| 05:30.29 | m35 | Zootfizzle: thank for the suggestion |
| 05:31.31 | Exawatt | Is there a way to restrict input to an EditBox? Say, if I only wanted to allow characters that are legal for naming toons? Or should I just accept whatever input and parse what I can? |
| 05:32.32 | Zootfizzle | Exawatt: There's probably not a convenient way, but you can write a script to reset the input to whatever it last was that was valid |
| 05:33.04 | ScytheBlade1 | Isn't there an OnChanged event handler? |
| 05:33.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Diff the input, if it isn't valid, revert |
| 05:33.29 | ScytheBlade1 | (May not be OnChanged exactly, but it is named something close) |
| 05:34.00 | Zootfizzle | Look at "string.match" @ http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html |
| 05:34.22 | ScytheBlade1 | OnTextChanged is the handler I believe, looking at the list |
| 05:34.39 | Zootfizzle | ScytheBlade1 is correct :) |
| 05:34.39 | ScytheBlade1 | OnChar may work too |
| 05:34.46 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.wowwiki.com/Widget_handlers#EditBox |
| 05:35.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Zootfizzle: any difference in OnChar and OnTextChanged? |
| 05:35.40 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm sure there is SOME but I can't discern it from the name alone |
| 05:35.47 | Thunder_Child | http://www.rlslog.net/pizza-vending-machine-italians-on-strike/ |
| 05:36.30 | Exawatt | I saw the event handler. I was hoping for more of a "[a-z][A-Z]" dealio. Kinda' like how there's the numeric="true" attribute. :-/ |
| 05:36.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Nope |
| 05:36.30 | ScytheBlade1 | You're out of luck there |
| 05:36.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Also keep in mind the non-US people |
| 05:36.58 | Zootfizzle | Exawatt: That's a good idea for a suggestion, it's just the sort of thing that we would add when we were working on the system for another reason |
| 05:37.08 | ScytheBlade1 | [a-z][A-Z] might piss off a lot of people who have another charset |
| 05:37.36 | Exawatt | Oh right. |
| 05:38.00 | Zootfizzle | If we add something I'll ask for a charSet="[escape sequence or utf8chars]" |
| 05:38.13 | ScytheBlade1 | Also keep in mind that WoW won't let you send anything that can't be displayed as a regular string, regardless of charset |
| 05:38.22 | Zootfizzle | - is just a range indicator between utf8 chars and works great for asian languages |
| 05:38.24 | ScytheBlade1 | (though Zoot may know otherwise) |
| 05:38.38 | Zootfizzle | Well, it depends on the asian language because of utf8 |
| 05:39.29 | Zootfizzle | Sorry, I work a lot on the localization stuff :) |
| 05:39.40 | Zootfizzle | rambles |
| 05:39.43 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 05:39.54 | ScytheBlade1 | See |
| 05:40.03 | ScytheBlade1 | The difference between you rambling and $RANDOM_PERSON_X |
| 05:40.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Is you are paid to know what you're talking about ;) |
| 05:40.11 | ScytheBlade1 | In theory anyway ;) |
| 05:40.42 | Exawatt | Or maybe charSet attribute with a couple options like "numbers", "charnames", etc... But that'd break alot of things. :-/ |
| 05:40.51 | Zootfizzle | I'm paid to find out when I need to talk about something I don't know and to find out what I'm really talking about when I'm wrong :) |
| 05:41.17 | ScytheBlade1 | permitted="(alpha|alphanumeric|numeric|utf8)" imo |
| 05:41.21 | Exawatt | ^ |
| 05:41.23 | Zootfizzle | charNames is a good candidate for an option if we do something specific, since we already have something for validating that :) |
| 05:41.59 | Exawatt | Wait, is there already a function I can use to validate a string as a possible other toon? >_> |
| 05:42.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Although I'd argue for including full UTF8 as "alpha" just so that stupid people don't reverse-localize their addon in the name of their user input being clean |
| 05:42.34 | Wobin | hm, they put a cooldown on lightning breath =( |
| 05:42.48 | Zootfizzle | s/we already have/Blizzard already has/ |
| 05:43.01 | Exawatt | Damn. |
| 05:44.23 | Zootfizzle | Exawatt: It's still a good idea for a function in the absence of an edit box |
| 05:44.30 | Zootfizzle | I'll bring it up for 3.2 |
| 05:44.36 | Exawatt | :) |
| 05:54.13 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (i=smcn@75-164-165-184.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 05:54.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Pretzle (i=Zyn@82-34-153-181.cable.ubr01.maid.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 05:55.29 | Exawatt | So here's a question: Do I program to allow names with extended ASCII characters (as they are potential users of my addon), or ignore that part because the names are against the TOS and shouldn't exist? |
| 05:57.03 | LagMonster | You allow for extended ascii characters |
| 05:57.30 | Exawatt | Drat. There's alot of them. |
| 05:57.49 | Dezzimal | I'm not even sure why blizzard allows extended ascii characters on north american servers :/ |
| 05:58.01 | Dezzimal | for character names |
| 05:58.25 | LagMonster | Probably cuz it uses unicode |
| 05:58.27 | tekkub | why should they intentionally restrict it when the software supports it? |
| 05:58.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Keep in mind that esMX is "north american" |
| 05:58.39 | Zootfizzle | As is Canadian |
| 05:59.10 | Zootfizzle | And in theory everywhere else that can't get onto a localized service because they buy the english version |
| 05:59.15 | Thunder_Child | but who cares about canadians? |
| 05:59.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: ^ |
| 05:59.35 | ScytheBlade1 | cheats |
| 05:59.47 | Dezzimal | ffxi a game where the entire world plays on servers in japan |
| 05:59.59 | Dezzimal | only allows a-z for charnames |
| 06:00.02 | ZorbaTHut | tekkub, well, it used to be reportable and they'd make you change |
| 06:00.11 | ZorbaTHut | it's annoying to type, for example |
| 06:00.16 | Cairenn | cries |
| 06:00.21 | Thunder_Child | not much Cairenn can do about it ScytheBlade1, she knows i am canadian |
| 06:00.31 | Thunder_Child | see |
| 06:00.33 | tekkub | ffxi's interface is a shining example of what NOT to do :P |
| 06:00.39 | ZorbaTHut | exawatt, they're not actually against the TOS anymore, however |
| 06:00.43 | LagMonster | The location of the server's are irrelevent |
| 06:01.02 | Zootfizzle | Dezzimal: I don't think anybody ever argued that Square was the most tolerant company in the world when it came to localization |
| 06:01.06 | Dezzimal | or the fact that they're worldwide >_> |
| 06:01.12 | tekkub | also, it was on the US client that did that, just cause they did isn't exactly an argument for WHY :P |
| 06:01.13 | Dezzimal | non-localized |
| 06:01.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Thunder_Child: in any case you made her cry, good job |
| 06:01.33 | Thunder_Child | Shirik, did win7 fix the column header issue? |
| 06:01.47 | Thunder_Child | ScytheBlade1, ty, that one goes on my wall of trophies |
| 06:01.51 | Zootfizzle | If you only allow A-Z for character names then I agree that it's non-localized :) |
| 06:02.16 | ZorbaTHut | zoot, the ironic part is that it was released in Japan *first*, by a very, very long margin :) |
| 06:02.19 | Exawatt | ZorbaTHut: Oh. I just googled "wow legal names" and found a blue from forever ago. Thanks. |
| 06:02.29 | LagMonster | FFXI is localized... there's also an addon for WoW that displays all quest info in Japanese |
| 06:02.38 | tekkub | and that the US players existed on the same servers as the JP players |
| 06:02.55 | Dezzimal | imagine if EU players had to roll on US servers |
| 06:02.59 | Dezzimal | when the game got released there |
| 06:03.21 | Dezzimal | I believe they got the game a year after we did? |
| 06:04.06 | Pretzle | Not quite that long I don't think, yet your point remains ;) |
| 06:04.21 | LagMonster | Dezz, i'm sure a lot of EU player's imported the game |
| 06:04.23 | Zootfizzle | ZorbaTHut: Square names their characters English words that Japanese people can't really say right without a lot of specific practice like Cloud :P |
| 06:04.30 | Zootfizzle | Or Squall |
| 06:04.51 | ZorbaTHut | zoot, one of the more entertaining things I saw when playing FFXI was a super-high-level-and-geared Japanese dude named "Rionheart" |
| 06:04.59 | LagMonster | You played Marathon? |
| 06:05.09 | ZorbaTHut | I was always very curious if it was intentional or not |
| 06:05.12 | Dezzimal | I knew a guy named Vaniraice |
| 06:05.51 | tekkub | I have only one thing to say about localization and FFXI... Ï |
| 06:05.57 | Dezzimal | w |
| 06:06.17 | tekkub | good at least someone gets it ^^ |
| 06:07.32 | Zootfizzle | I think the idea behind FFXI was more globalization than localization |
| 06:07.33 | tekkub | LagMonster: I played it, granted it was more of "watched others play it" cause I suck at those games |
| 06:07.42 | tekkub | I made lots of fun physics for it though |
| 06:07.43 | Dezzimal | ã(^_^ã)(ã^_^)ã |
| 06:08.18 | tekkub | the kind that made of for my lack of skill by eliminating the need for skill |
| 06:08.22 | Dezzimal | </weeaboo> |
| 06:08.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Ratness (n=ratness@ip68-105-135-156.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 06:09.14 | tekkub | my fav was "only pistols, bullets have 0 velocity, max splash damage range and value" coupled with a tiny level |
| 06:09.48 | Ratness | ç§ã®æ¥æ¬èªãã¿ãã¾ãã |
| 06:09.55 | tekkub | eventually someone runs into a bullet and everyone dies |
| 06:10.04 | Zootfizzle | ZorbaTHut: I lawled btw at Rionheart :) |
| 06:10.08 | LagMonster | heh typed that w/ my ipod |
| 06:12.09 | kd3 | whee, sarth+2 with 23 in the raid |
| 06:12.12 | Zootfizzle | Grats kd3! |
| 06:12.26 | Tem | http://x85.xanga.com/94cf556b66436217894898/m170607985.jpg |
| 06:12.41 | ScytheBlade1 | rofl |
| 06:12.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Something about that picture is amazing |
| 06:12.49 | kd3 | I wonder if the server keeps count of how many people throw themselves around the room after sarth's down with the fire vortices |
| 06:12.51 | ScytheBlade1 | Subtle |
| 06:14.32 | kd3 | at least it's a lateral throw and not a vertical one |
| 06:14.47 | kd3 | though I do still miss blowing myself up on the last garr add and iceblocking at the ceiling |
| 06:15.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah I miss that too |
| 06:15.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Just one of those little flavor things that reminds you it is a game |
| 06:19.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (n=elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 06:21.59 | LagMonster | i need a new mouse |
| 06:26.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe22fa00-138.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 06:27.40 | Syzgyn | http://content.screencast.com/users/msaleem/folders/Jing/media/f4d0cd4a-aac5-4cbd-aa84-b0b55fe0443f/00000855.png |
| 06:29.17 | Corrodias | haaaaaa |
| 06:31.03 | Cairenn | lol |
| 06:31.28 | Syzgyn | It amused me |
| 06:32.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@222-152-99-68.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 06:43.37 | End | hm, panda looks neat |
| 06:44.40 | haste | it is neat |
| 06:51.39 | Elkano | End, it doesn't only look that way ^^ |
| 06:54.05 | zenzio | just don't get the sad panda |
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| 07:25.57 | Thunder_Child | this is the first time ever getting this message on youtube "This video is not available in your country. " |
| 07:29.12 | Cairenn | I unfortunately get it not infrequently, both on YouTube and on other sites |
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| 07:43.49 | tekkub | hrm.... stupid idea |
| 07:43.51 | *** join/#wowuidev pb_ee1 (n=nospam@meilleu015869-2.clients.easynet.fr) |
| 07:44.02 | tekkub | so, the leak in the ceiling is directly over the toilet... |
| 07:44.12 | tekkub | all but one drip go directly in |
| 07:44.16 | Elkano | tekkub, what did I have to read, you missed GetItemIcon? ^^ |
| 07:44.30 | tekkub | I think I'm gonna lose the bucket and tape a cut with a hole to the edge |
| 07:44.55 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@58.20.47.166) |
| 07:44.57 | tekkub | that way that one drip doesn't splash on the floor, and the toilet will never overflow like the bucket |
| 07:45.11 | tekkub | I have t empty the bucket like ever hour and a half >< |
| 07:45.20 | tekkub | I want to sleep without flooding |
| 07:45.26 | tekkub | Elkano: yes, I did |
| 07:45.52 | tekkub | more specifically, I remember reading it, going "oh that'll help" and then 5 min later I'd totally forgotten it |
| 07:46.03 | Elkano | and what you're describing here reminds me a bit of thisone: http://www.kötteritzsch.de/serendipity/uploads/Pics/BilligerBoiler.jpg |
| 07:46.10 | Fisker- | hahaha |
| 07:46.11 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8522892947&sid=1#6 |
| 07:46.20 | Fisker- | 3 hours later |
| 07:46.21 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8523023212&sid=1 |
| 07:46.25 | Fisker- | bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww |
| 07:46.31 | tekkub | yea basically one of those |
| 07:46.57 | tekkub | if I knew they'd not get this fixed fast (they prolly won't) I'd do tha bamboo rocker thing |
| 07:47.07 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 07:47.35 | tekkub | they had the roof redone a few weeks back... now it snows, snow's melting.. and coming down the vent for the fan >< |
| 07:47.57 | tekkub | it was doing it in BOTH bathrooms all day, and we don't have an umbrella |
| 07:49.45 | Elkano | btw, tekkub, is there a way to have Panda link to chat? |
| 07:51.05 | tekkub | the same way everything else does :P |
| 07:51.17 | Elkano | doesn't work for me :/ |
| 07:52.32 | Elkano | also, the last major Death Knight glyph is shown in a new column for me |
| 07:54.53 | Elkano | oh, ok, it seems like linking only works for a few cases, eg the buff food but not for the materials |
| 07:55.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Srosh (n=Srosh@c222205.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 07:56.33 | Thunder_Child | gags tekkub with a spoon |
| 07:57.05 | Fisker- | i'm the boss |
| 07:57.37 | Thunder_Child | he asked for it |
| 07:57.58 | tekkub | okey, now we just hope the cup doesn't fall off |
| 07:58.14 | tekkub | I don't know why I didn't think of this hours ago |
| 08:14.06 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 08:19.40 | Wobin | there's a hole in the cup |
| 08:19.42 | Wobin | right? =P |
| 08:20.59 | Thunder_Child | doesnt have to be one |
| 08:21.11 | tekkub | yes, there does |
| 08:21.18 | tekkub | otherwise it'd overflow |
| 08:21.30 | Thunder_Child | most toilet seats are angled toward the middle |
| 08:21.48 | Thunder_Child | if the can is at a slight angle it will go right in |
| 08:21.49 | tekkub | yea which just reaims the splash a little |
| 08:21.50 | mikma | wobin: two cups one hole? |
| 08:22.02 | tekkub | two drips one cup |
| 08:22.03 | Thunder_Child | ~whaleslap mikma |
| 08:22.04 | purl | ACTION beats mikma upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 08:22.17 | zenzio | a cup without a hole would be hard to drink from |
| 08:22.20 | tekkub | and TC, it's a tall cup, it'd topple over if it filled up :P |
| 08:22.41 | Thunder_Child | tekkub, ah, i thought it was anchored |
| 08:22.59 | tekkub | nah it's doing fine sittin on the level bit with the seat up |
| 08:23.29 | Wobin | is it leaking through a hole? |
| 08:23.36 | Wobin | Or just seeping through the ceiling? |
| 08:23.49 | Thunder_Child | the fan hole should have a cover on it |
| 08:23.56 | Thunder_Child | just for this sort of thing |
| 08:24.05 | Zootfizzle | That'd be a bad, bad idea |
| 08:24.29 | Wobin | sudden dump of water on the head when the cover fails =P |
| 08:24.39 | Zootfizzle | Or sudden dump of ceiling on toilet |
| 08:24.47 | Thunder_Child | huh?...let me get an image for you |
| 08:25.05 | Wobin | What zoot is trying to say is that the water has to go somewhere |
| 08:25.10 | mikma | ceiling toilet is watching you taking a dump? |
| 08:25.12 | Wobin | and if it gets stuck up there, and builds up... |
| 08:25.31 | Wobin | mikma: how's that for performance pressure =P |
| 08:25.42 | mikma | loldentist, i have to drink my coffee with straw now |
| 08:26.10 | Thunder_Child | "they had the roof redone a few weeks back... now it snows, snow's melting.. and coming down the vent for the fan ><" |
| 08:26.29 | Thunder_Child | the fan vent should have something to keep it from happening |
| 08:26.32 | Thunder_Child | is my point |
| 08:26.47 | Wraithan | At the top before it gets into the vent, is what he means I believe |
| 08:26.51 | Thunder_Child | http://rv-living-magazine.com/pics-vents/vent-cover8.jpg |
| 08:26.52 | Wraithan | not at the bottom where it can pool up |
| 08:27.03 | Thunder_Child | like that |
| 08:28.37 | Zootfizzle | I see what you mean now |
| 08:32.07 | Fisker- | i lol'd @ family guy |
| 08:32.49 | Wraithan | ~seen Floraline |
| 08:32.52 | purl | Wraithan: i haven't seen 'floraline' |
| 08:34.03 | Shirik | i lol'd @ Fisker- |
| 08:34.42 | Fisker- | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 08:37.09 | mikma | shirik: :D |
| 08:38.18 | Wraithan | (haven't looked into this yet, just asking questions before I start)I know part of the purpose of LDB is so addons don't need to be tied so intimately with their data/config display. But it is still possible to integrate it closely right? I was thinking of making a totem macro mod, that you just check off one totem of each element and it makes the macro for you (So I don't have to keep changing my macro) |
| 08:38.44 | Wraithan | I know this functionality is in other totem addons, but the totem addon I like doesn't include it, FloTotemBar |
| 08:39.24 | mikma | wraithan: *cough* http://wow.reaktio.net/WoWScrnShot_033009_003834.jpg |
| 08:39.58 | Wraithan | What am I looking at on there? |
| 08:40.05 | Thunder_Child | totems? |
| 08:40.07 | mikma | totems |
| 08:40.11 | Wraithan | What about them? |
| 08:40.19 | Thunder_Child | or fail feasts |
| 08:41.13 | Wraithan | I use flototembar already, does my timers and shows my totems and I don't have to futz with it when I change between specs |
| 08:41.14 | mikma | wraithan: just showing you my superduper -addon! because i've had a dream of writing addon that creates me totem-macro from the totems i pick from the list |
| 08:41.17 | tekkub | just make a config panel in the interface options and use a LDB quicklaunch to open it :P |
| 08:41.38 | Wraithan | tekkub: yuck |
| 08:41.52 | tekkub | and what were you going to do? a dropdown? |
| 08:42.02 | Wraithan | I hate having to open a whole window for changing one setting, rather just click an icon and look through a drop down |
| 08:42.17 | tekkub | yea, that's much more yuck |
| 08:42.19 | Fisker- | hits Shirik |
| 08:42.34 | tekkub | one click to open panel, one to click the totem you want, and esc to leave |
| 08:42.54 | mikma | heh, that's what i do in my mage-portal addon |
| 08:43.03 | Wraithan | tekkub: considering you need to change your totem stomp setup on a per group or even sometimes per encounter basis, opening the config window all the time for that bleh |
| 08:43.15 | tekkub | no it's not |
| 08:43.26 | tekkub | if you make a GODD panel at least :P |
| 08:43.47 | tekkub | s/OD/OO/ |
| 08:44.05 | Wraithan | Well it would just be 4 drop downs, one for each element plus a drop down/check box for totemic call button |
| 08:44.16 | Wraithan | Hard to make a fail panel |
| 08:44.25 | Wraithan | TBH I could make both easily |
| 08:44.45 | tekkub | hard my ass :P go steal Kennel's panel |
| 08:44.59 | Wraithan | I just hate opening windows to futz with things, rather just use a quick drop down |
| 08:45.01 | tekkub | it's almost exactly what you need, excpt 4 groups instead of 1 |
| 08:45.16 | Wraithan | tekkub: I mean, it would be hard to mess up the panel |
| 08:45.23 | Wraithan | not hard to make |
| 08:45.27 | tekkub | when you have multiple levels/menus, it's never quick |
| 08:46.01 | Wraithan | sure it is, when I only need to change my water totem from mana to poison it is click highlight water, click |
| 08:46.16 | tekkub | you're lucky I don't play my chamois at all or I'd write this just to spite your menus |
| 08:46.45 | Wraithan | rather than have 1/2 of my screen taken up by an options window |
| 08:46.56 | tekkub | get a bigger screen |
| 08:47.03 | tekkub | it's like 1/4 of mine |
| 08:47.16 | Wraithan | Bigger screen or better ui implementaion for myself, wonder which is cheaper... |
| 08:47.22 | Wraithan | considering I am laid off right now |
| 08:47.49 | tekkub | in that case, quit fucking with wow and go find a jorb |
| 08:47.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Tem (n=tardmrr@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 08:47.54 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Tem] by ChanServ |
| 08:47.57 | Wraithan | haha |
| 08:48.26 | Zootfizzle | Yeah |
| 08:48.28 | Zootfizzle | Jeeze :D |
| 08:48.47 | Thunder_Child | jorb? |
| 08:48.51 | Thunder_Child | fail |
| 08:49.15 | Wraithan | I have a free year wow account because of a friend who works at bliz, so not like wow is costing me anything, and it is hard to go out/call places up at 1am |
| 08:49.33 | nevcairiel | sleep, get up early, get busy =) |
| 08:49.49 | Wraithan | I spend all day applying for jobs and going out to different companies to apply |
| 08:49.58 | Thunder_Child | sleep? i do not understand this word |
| 08:50.04 | Wraithan | ~define sleep |
| 08:50.05 | purl | Use ~dict for definitions. |
| 08:50.08 | Zootfizzle | http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/222625/?tab=featured |
| 08:50.11 | Wraithan | ~dict sleep |
| 08:50.27 | Thunder_Child | ~dict 1 sleep |
| 08:50.36 | Fisker- | aaaaaaaaaaaaaand it's gone! |
| 08:51.47 | Wraithan | tekkub: I am sure it wouldn't be bad to have both configuration styles though, folks like choices |
| 08:52.03 | Cairenn | mikma: responded to your suggestion |
| 08:52.47 | tekkub | Cairenn: what about my suggestion |
| 08:52.56 | Cairenn | tekkub: which one? |
| 08:53.01 | tekkub | scroll up |
| 08:53.18 | Wraithan | Cairenn: I don't see anything that would show the type of addon I am looking for in the SS that mikma posted |
| 08:53.22 | tekkub | there, that oughtta keep her busy for 5 min or so |
| 08:53.31 | mikma | cairenn: imho Broker deserves a huge, own category with 2 subcategories! |
| 08:53.37 | Cairenn | Wraithan: huh? |
| 08:53.40 | Cairenn | tekkub: :p |
| 08:53.46 | tekkub | ^^ |
| 08:54.16 | tekkub | and yea, I second mikma's idear, LDB's gotten to the point it's prolly best we give displays their own cat |
| 08:54.31 | Cairenn | I've been thinking about it, as I said |
| 08:54.48 | tekkub | less think more dew |
| 08:54.56 | Cairenn | :) |
| 08:54.57 | End | there's like a half dozen that are just bar style :o |
| 08:55.06 | Cairenn | End: aye, I know |
| 08:55.59 | Shirik | ~dict overliteral |
| 08:56.06 | Shirik | I just invented that wod |
| 08:56.08 | Shirik | word |
| 08:56.18 | Shirik | When it becomes popular in 10 years, you all know who to thank |
| 08:56.20 | *** join/#wowuidev pb_ee1 (n=nospam@meilleu015869-2.clients.easynet.fr) |
| 08:56.24 | End | or curse |
| 08:56.25 | Zootfizzle | Shirik |
| 08:56.30 | Zootfizzle | You're not thinking futurey enough |
| 08:56.33 | End | curses Shirik. |
| 08:56.39 | Zootfizzle | It'd be hyperliteral |
| 08:56.42 | Zootfizzle | Or Transliteral |
| 08:56.46 | Zootfizzle | Chronoliteral |
| 08:56.51 | End | How very underliteral |
| 08:56.55 | Shirik | I like hyperliteral |
| 08:57.31 | Thunder_Child | Zootfizzle, fail on Chronoliteral |
| 08:58.44 | Zootfizzle | Thunder_Child: If you think it fails, you're taking it too literally right now |
| 08:58.48 | Zootfizzle | You need to take it literally later |
| 08:58.53 | Zootfizzle | That's Chronoliteral |
| 08:59.10 | Thunder_Child | no, i am not being literal about time...which is chronoliteral |
| 08:59.30 | Zootfizzle | Why not? |
| 08:59.45 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 08:59.46 | Thunder_Child | it has nothing to do with time |
| 09:00.26 | Zootfizzle | That's why Chronoliteral is an acceptable futurey word for literal |
| 09:01.23 | Zootfizzle | It has nothing to do with time |
| 09:01.26 | Thunder_Child | it is not acceptable at all, since that has a specific meaning whereas Hyper simply enhances Literal |
| 09:01.27 | Zootfizzle | It has nothing to do with literal |
| 09:01.59 | Zootfizzle | Except that it's in the future |
| 09:02.01 | Zootfizzle | And literal |
| 09:02.13 | Thunder_Child | except chrono means time, not future |
| 09:02.39 | Zootfizzle | Let me put it another way: You're too literal to be Chronoliteral. |
| 09:02.51 | Zootfizzle | Maybe later you'll be less literal. |
| 09:03.06 | Thunder_Child | yes, because chronoliteral isnt a real or even valid word |
| 09:03.07 | nevcairiel | You have to be less literal to understand chronoliteral |
| 09:04.07 | Zootfizzle | high fives nevcairiel transliterally |
| 09:08.29 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (n=soufron@LAubervilliers-153-53-3-81.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 09:24.03 | ZorbaTHut | I have to say I'm always amused at the little ! hints that show up on the test server |
| 09:24.13 | ZorbaTHut | I log onto my lv80 character, and it's all "HEY HERE'S HOW YOU TARGET THINGS" |
| 09:24.38 | ZorbaTHut | Right-click on a monster to fight it! I bet you don't know this yet because you're only lv80 |
| 09:27.36 | nevcairiel | Alot people get 80 before knowing that |
| 09:27.37 | Fisker- | stares seductively at ZorbaTHut |
| 09:31.58 | Fisker- | lets hope the lazy europeans get battle.net merges up and running today |
| 09:31.59 | Fisker- | :3 |
| 09:33.50 | Shirik | woot |
| 09:33.54 | Shirik | I broke 1000 dalaran laps |
| 09:34.03 | Shirik | 512 clockwise, 520 counter-clockwise |
| 09:34.09 | nevcairiel | do something useful for once |
| 09:34.17 | nevcairiel | like, finish that updater |
| 09:34.55 | Shirik | I am! |
| 09:35.05 | Shirik | It's, sadly, at about 18kloc |
| 09:35.22 | nevcairiel | that sounds way too much for a freaking updater |
| 09:35.32 | Shirik | Maybe it's more than an updater |
| 09:35.37 | Shirik | have you been watching the threads on it |
| 09:35.42 | nevcairiel | I haven't |
| 09:35.52 | nevcairiel | and any updater thats more then an updater is fail-by-design |
| 09:35.53 | nevcairiel | imho. |
| 09:36.02 | Shirik | Maybe it's not called an updater except by you |
| 09:36.16 | Fisker- | your mothers |
| 09:36.55 | nevcairiel | People don't want a freaking OS to manage their addons =) |
| 09:36.55 | Shirik | Okay, I'm not in the mood for this at 5 AM |
| 09:36.55 | Shirik | If you want it, go make it yourself, otherwise let me do it on my own time |
| 09:37.06 | Shirik | I am, fyi, a master's student whom is actively finding an internship and that has slightly higher precedence than something I do for free |
| 09:37.47 | Fisker- | He's german |
| 09:37.51 | Fisker- | all germans are evil |
| 09:38.10 | batrick | Going to have to agree with Shirik on that one |
| 09:38.29 | Fisker- | agree with meeee :( |
| 09:39.28 | Wraithan | Updater for what? |
| 09:39.42 | Wraithan | TAAU? |
| 09:39.47 | Wraithan | Er, YAAU |
| 09:39.57 | Wraithan | Yet another addon updater? |
| 09:40.46 | Shirik | ffs, stop calling it an updater |
| 09:40.52 | Shirik | do you call the curse client an updater? |
| 09:40.53 | mikma | updater |
| 09:40.55 | Shirik | no |
| 09:40.58 | mikma | updater |
| 09:40.58 | nevcairiel | i do |
| 09:41.02 | nevcairiel | its an updater |
| 09:41.06 | nevcairiel | not much more |
| 09:41.07 | mikma | pokes shirik |
| 09:41.07 | Fisker- | SWOWIAMS2009 |
| 09:41.07 | Wraithan | I call it that |
| 09:41.10 | Wraithan | That is what it is |
| 09:41.18 | Shirik | That's not what it is |
| 09:41.23 | Shirik | That may be what you use it for, but that's not what it is |
| 09:41.24 | Fisker- | (Shirik WoWInterface Addon Management Suite 2009) |
| 09:41.46 | nevcairiel | I know what the curse client does, and 99% of its features are updating addons |
| 09:41.49 | nevcairiel | so its an updater |
| 09:41.58 | Fisker- | I disagree |
| 09:42.01 | Fisker- | 1 feature is updating |
| 09:42.07 | Fisker- | ??? features are alot of other shit |
| 09:42.12 | Wraithan | updater/downlaoder |
| 09:42.13 | Fisker- | unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful |
| 09:42.27 | Shirik | Again, not getting into this argument here |
| 09:42.40 | Shirik | If you "don't want a freaking OS" and think it's "fail-by-design" then go make your own |
| 09:42.43 | Shirik | nobody's stopping you |
| 09:42.47 | Shirik | hell, nobody's stopping wowmatrix |
| 09:43.08 | Shirik | but don't come in here and bash me day in and day out when I have a few other priorities |
| 09:43.55 | nevcairiel | You should bump your sleeping priority and calm down |
| 09:44.17 | Wraithan | *shrug* I avoid downloading addons from wowi just because I don't like using multiple clients for updating, I have the wowi client installed but I think I run it at most once every 2-3 weeks |
| 09:44.51 | Wraithan | All but like 3 or 4 of my addons are on curse anyway |
| 09:45.54 | Cairenn | and probably most of them are on WoWI, too |
| 09:46.14 | Wraithan | Yeah, but the curse client doesn't fail in installing addons |
| 09:46.47 | Wraithan | I have had to remove addons and have wowi install them again because it gets stuck over and over again |
| 09:47.24 | Cairenn | yeah, well, we've said time and again that that one is dead |
| 09:47.25 | Shirik | Are you complaining about an application that's a year and a half old and has been officially declared end-of-life? |
| 09:47.26 | Wraithan | Like Lightheaded just did when I started up WoWI and saw Lightheaded needing an update |
| 09:48.12 | Wraithan | Shirik: Just stating why I use Curse over WoWI, not complaining because it doesn't really matter to me anymore |
| 09:48.28 | ZorbaTHut | you guys and your crazy college degrees |
| 09:48.38 | Shirik | I don't understand how this became a curse vs. wowi discussion at all |
| 09:49.03 | Wraithan | Nevermind. |
| 09:49.28 | Wraithan | Don't want ya to get all upset and jump down my throat, since you seem on the edge already. |
| 09:51.14 | Wraithan | Is there an alpha or beta of the new wowi client? |
| 09:51.36 | mikma | shirik: curse sucks wowi rules lolo |
| 09:51.37 | Cairenn|afk | it's in alpha testing now, hopefully be in beta soon (tm) |
| 09:51.43 | mikma | end of discussion. |
| 09:52.07 | Cairenn|afk | night guys |
| 09:52.36 | Fisker- | no u |
| 09:53.32 | ZorbaTHut | curious, they took out the randomseed function in 3.1 |
| 09:54.02 | Fisker- | it didn't wear a condom |
| 09:54.11 | Wobin | heheh lol@xkcd |
| 09:54.36 | Wraithan | Aye, is pretty good |
| 09:54.48 | Wraithan | oooOOOoo new episode of kings |
| 10:07.39 | mikma | lol wut? |
| 10:07.48 | mikma | "This is an administrative change -- your World of Warcraft game experience will not be impacted." |
| 10:07.58 | mikma | "If for any reason you do not agree to this change you may terminate your account with effect from March 31, 2009 by accessing the cancellation feature in the account management page at https://www.wow-europe.com/account/." |
| 10:08.33 | zenzio | some people just can't bear the idea of being led by a French company |
| 10:10.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 10:10.28 | Jamash | I'm a dope |
| 10:11.22 | mikma | good. |
| 10:11.30 | Jamash | Really? |
| 10:13.25 | mikma | no. |
| 10:13.53 | Shirik | nice mikma |
| 10:14.32 | mikma | shirik: i am, thanks :) |
| 10:16.41 | Maldivia | hmm... |
| 10:16.56 | Maldivia | wonders what will be the big announcement on Wednesday... |
| 10:17.23 | zenzio | announcement? |
| 10:18.15 | Maldivia | yeah :P |
| 10:18.22 | Zyndrome | "Arthas, the Lich King, has come out of the closet." |
| 10:18.26 | nevcairiel | they announced an announcement? |
| 10:18.27 | Wobin | ahaha "An embarrassed father has said how he was shocked when his teenage daughter returned home from a sexual health workshop with a six-inch rubber penis." |
| 10:19.06 | zenzio | "hey dad, check out what I found at the workshop" |
| 10:19.19 | Maldivia | he got jelous? |
| 10:19.23 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 10:19.33 | Wobin | http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/dads-shock-over-nhs-rubber-penis-14240848.html |
| 10:20.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 10:21.33 | Maldivia | nevcairiel: and no, haven't announced an announcement, but I'm quite sure there will be one... *whistle* |
| 10:21.51 | nevcairiel | not helpful! |
| 10:21.54 | Shirik | wow Wobin |
| 10:21.55 | mikma | who will announce |
| 10:22.19 | Shirik | I'm not sure if I'm more surprised by the "pregnant at 13" or the "free gift" |
| 10:22.32 | zenzio | Maldivia: why are you sure about that? |
| 10:23.17 | nevcairiel | its a funny thing to give away on such a course |
| 10:23.17 | Jamash | what's so shocking about a rubber penis |
| 10:23.21 | Wobin | well it'll promote how to avoid teen pregnancy |
| 10:23.36 | Jamash | now what would be shocking is if she came home with a *real* one |
| 10:23.37 | Maldivia | well, it they stick to rubber, they won't get pregnant |
| 10:23.40 | Wobin | Jamash: Well, afaik, most sexual health workshops don't offer a take home dildo =P |
| 10:24.11 | Maldivia | zenzio: well, I just am :) |
| 10:24.23 | Jamash | I'm trying to add a new feature to my addon and I realized I left my authenticator at a friend's house |
| 10:24.33 | Wobin | Jamash: =( |
| 10:24.37 | Jamash | d'oh |
| 10:24.45 | Wobin | That's why I have my authenticator on my ipod |
| 10:24.46 | Jamash | I'll have to go by and get it tomorrow |
| 10:24.52 | Wobin | hopefully I won't leave that somewhere =P |
| 10:24.52 | Maldivia | does PTR require authenticator ? |
| 10:24.55 | Jamash | yeah well I don't have an ipod |
| 10:24.59 | Jamash | Maldivia: yes |
| 10:25.13 | Maldivia | Jamash: create a trial account then |
| 10:25.31 | Jamash | eh it's not urgent, I can dry-code tonight and get it tomorrow |
| 10:25.43 | Jamash | it's just a "gosh that was dumb" moment |
| 10:26.28 | Maldivia | and you dont have the authenticator software on your cellphone or something? |
| 10:26.35 | Jamash | nope |
| 10:26.42 | Shirik | you can do that? |
| 10:26.45 | Jamash | I think you can only have one authenticator tied to an account |
| 10:27.01 | mikma | one authenticator to multiple accounts |
| 10:27.26 | Shirik | They should allow you to use RSA keys to log into WoW |
| 10:29.23 | Jamash | you can't use the mobile authenticator and the blizzard authenticator at the same time |
| 10:29.59 | Shirik | I didn't realize there's a mobile authenticator |
| 10:30.01 | Shirik | that's interesting |
| 10:30.07 | Jamash | yeah |
| 10:30.12 | Shirik | Did they release its algorithm? |
| 10:30.17 | Jamash | I doubt it |
| 10:30.28 | Shirik | but it's cellular software? |
| 10:30.30 | Shirik | (J2ME?) |
| 10:30.48 | nevcairiel | I think its only for iphone |
| 10:30.52 | nevcairiel | so could as well be obj-c |
| 10:31.02 | nevcairiel | iphone/ipod touch |
| 10:31.03 | Jamash | iphone or korean cell phones only at the moment |
| 10:31.12 | Jamash | "coming soon" for US/EU phones |
| 10:31.36 | Shirik | but if it's software, it can be decompiled |
| 10:31.39 | Jamash | sure |
| 10:31.56 | Shirik | in hardware it's a little more difficult |
| 10:32.13 | Shirik | though admittedly it's probably just a chip so you could read the code off it |
| 10:33.28 | ZorbaTHut | I certainly wouldn't mind an authenticator program on my computer |
| 10:33.41 | Jamash | ZorbaTHut: wouldn't that sort of defeat the purpose? |
| 10:33.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (n=kalroth@195.215.170.222) |
| 10:33.52 | ZorbaTHut | jamash, I have two computers. I'd put it on the one that doesn't run WoW :) |
| 10:34.09 | Maldivia | Shirik: even if you know the algorythm, you still need to know the seed (which I assume the authenticator-ID is for) |
| 10:34.40 | nevcairiel | It still ends up being just another password if people start putting it on their comps |
| 10:34.43 | nevcairiel | the password beign the id |
| 10:35.04 | Shirik | if you can sync up all internal data, there's no problem with that Maldivia |
| 10:35.21 | Jamash | yeah if a keylogger can grab your password it can grab your authenticator if it's on the pc running wow |
| 10:35.29 | Shirik | take a snapshot of the known-good authenticator and initialize your creation with the same data |
| 10:35.38 | Shirik | assuming it's done relatively quickly you're fine |
| 10:36.01 | ZorbaTHut | I bet the authenticator's "state" is just the current time |
| 10:36.11 | ZorbaTHut | anything more complicated would burn the batteries down too fast |
| 10:36.15 | Shirik | that's mostly true |
| 10:36.35 | Shirik | Assuming they follow what RSA did, server-side there's also a drift tracking component |
| 10:36.49 | Jamash | I did wonder how they'd handle that |
| 10:36.55 | Shirik | it's fairly simple |
| 10:37.02 | Maldivia | Shirik: well, depending on the algorythm, even if you have a complete list of all generated keys, it's not sure you can't predict the next without the original seed |
| 10:37.05 | Shirik | The authenticator does not allow only one number for authentication |
| 10:37.12 | nevcairiel | server-side is fine, as long as the code required on the client is small |
| 10:37.13 | Shirik | It allows a window of numbers |
| 10:37.20 | Jamash | Shirik: that makes sense |
| 10:37.40 | Shirik | By watching for when you were one (or more, within range) off, you can detect drift and handle it |
| 10:38.01 | Shirik | naturally, it's a rare case, but one which must be handled |
| 10:38.15 | Jamash | probably not that rare, the clock chip in the authenticator has to be very cheap |
| 10:38.39 | Shirik | crystals are very cheap and relatively good |
| 10:39.05 | Jamash | I've seen PCs which drifted by seconds per day |
| 10:39.07 | Shirik | Most watches just use a crystal |
| 10:39.15 | Jamash | and watches, for that matter |
| 10:39.31 | selckin | 5min a year, thats nottin |
| 10:40.13 | Jamash | not when your authenticator has a 30 second window |
| 10:40.22 | Shefki | 36 second |
| 10:40.32 | Jamash | and is designed to last for, say, five years |
| 10:40.38 | Shirik | as a sample |
| 10:40.42 | selckin | even windows will contact a ntp server every week (or try to) |
| 10:40.51 | Shirik | I'm looking at a 14MHz crystal right now |
| 10:41.13 | batrick | I'm disappointed Carbonite is switching to open source |
| 10:41.19 | Jamash | huh? |
| 10:41.23 | Shirik | its tolerance is... |
| 10:41.25 | batrick | This bullshit policy is going to fly |
| 10:41.30 | selckin | noo, please make it die |
| 10:41.39 | Shefki | Ohh boy here we go again. |
| 10:42.08 | Maldivia | Shirik: ohh the suspense... |
| 10:42.14 | Shirik | trying to do math |
| 10:42.22 | Shirik | they put the frequency tolerance in a stupid way |
| 10:42.27 | *** join/#wowuidev BuglouseR (n=Buglouse@CPE-69-76-77-243.wi.res.rr.com) |
| 10:42.43 | Shirik | lua> 13.225625 * 20 |
| 10:42.43 | lua_bot | Shirik: 264.5125 |
| 10:42.47 | Shirik | 264 Hz |
| 10:42.50 | Shirik | +/- 264 Hz |
| 10:44.10 | Shirik | lua> 13.225625 / ( 13.225625 + 264 / 1000000) * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365 - 60 * 60 * 24 * 365 |
| 10:44.10 | lua_bot | Shirik: -629.48539791629 |
| 10:44.19 | Shirik | Hm, that's 629 seconds per year |
| 10:44.24 | Shirik | Significant enough I guess |
| 10:44.38 | Shirik | But I'd still call that a rare case |
| 10:44.59 | Jamash | carbonite is *not* going open source, it's going free |
| 10:45.06 | Jamash | there's a huge difference |
| 10:45.08 | Shirik | if we say a drift of 30 seconds needs to be handled, then that means it needs to be handled |
| 10:45.10 | Shirik | lua> 629 / 30 |
| 10:45.11 | lua_bot | Shirik: 20.966666666667 |
| 10:45.14 | Shirik | 20 times a year |
| 10:45.29 | batrick | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16019953465&sid=1 |
| 10:45.32 | batrick | that's hilaroius |
| 10:46.08 | Jamash | hooray for off-topic |
| 10:46.10 | Shirik | wtf batrick |
| 10:46.34 | batrick | what shirik? |
| 10:46.42 | Shirik | people are very strange |
| 10:46.48 | Kalroth | lol |
| 10:47.48 | ZorbaTHut | "and you just sc*@!% it lightly on the inside?" |
| 10:47.56 | Xinhuan | .. |
| 10:47.57 | ZorbaTHut | oh, blizzard. profanity filters really aren't that hard, you know |
| 10:48.16 | Maldivia | Shirik: but is the crystal constant with its clock deviation, or does it vary? |
| 10:48.30 | batrick | i think it filtering "rape" out of the middle of a word is just a joke at this point |
| 10:48.52 | selckin | i having the filters on is just as funny |
| 10:49.14 | Jamash | I can think of 3 things in my kitchen that blizzard would filter |
| 10:49.29 | Zyndrome | sneezing eh, I'm one of those people who sneeze by just looking at a bright light, i.e. the sun :< |
| 10:49.36 | Shirik | Maldivia: It varies; I was using worst case |
| 10:49.45 | Shirik | That is very unusual for it to drift like that |
| 10:50.09 | Shirik | typically it will fluctuate around the advertised frequency, and it's typically due to temperature |
| 10:50.10 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@client-7-244.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk) |
| 10:50.26 | Kalroth | Jamash: http://www.penisland.net/ ! |
| 10:50.39 | Maldivia | Shirik: so it could technically even out ? |
| 10:50.47 | Shirik | it typically does approximately even out |
| 10:51.07 | Maldivia | been too long since I've had to work with crystals |
| 10:51.22 | Shirik | This is actually why crystals are generally used in watches |
| 10:51.31 | Shirik | they typically do end up approximately accurate over a large amount of time |
| 10:51.52 | Shirik | And quartz has the added benefit of being very temperature-independent (only huge variance in temperature really causes a difference) |
| 10:52.45 | zenzio | why should we put up with watches that fail if we go from absolute zero to 1000 degrees in three seconds? Heresy! |
| 10:53.07 | Maldivia | Kalroth: yeah, there's a reason expertsexchange added a hyphen to their name a long time ago :) |
| 10:53.10 | Jamash | by "fail" I assume you mean "shatter into a thousand pieces" |
| 10:53.34 | Kalroth | Maldivia: Aye :) |
| 10:53.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@host217-44-188-10.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) |
| 10:54.24 | zenzio | Windows has a few API functions ending in ...sEx() |
| 10:54.28 | Maldivia | Kalroth: or what about therapistonline.com ? |
| 10:55.01 | Shirik | zenzelezz >< |
| 10:55.08 | Kalroth | Maldivia: It's like the yellow pages |
| 10:55.09 | Shirik | That's like saying they have a few API functions ending in s |
| 10:55.24 | Shirik | Since pretty much all of their functions now have an Ex version |
| 10:55.37 | Shirik | hell, even the BSOD function now is an Ex function |
| 10:55.44 | Shirik | KeBugCheckEx() |
| 10:55.52 | zenzio | Shirik: doesn't change the fact that that's one of the few things people *like* about the Win32 API |
| 10:55.52 | nevcairiel | But it wasn't be as funny if you would say "s" |
| 10:55.59 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 10:56.29 | Kalroth | I always take a lot of heat from my coworkers when I make an Ex() function |
| 10:57.23 | Jamash | what's the Ex mean? |
| 10:57.29 | Maldivia | extended |
| 10:57.42 | Shirik | It's basically because Microsoft tries to make everything backwards compatible to Windows -1.0 |
| 10:57.47 | Jamash | oy |
| 10:57.59 | zenzio | Jamash: since they can't just change existing functions without breaking compatibility, they introduce new versions |
| 10:58.09 | Jamash | oh microsoft, you so crazy |
| 10:58.11 | zenzio | sometimes the results are quite peculiar |
| 10:58.18 | Kalroth | In the future I'll only make one function; generic(functionName: string, functionVersion: uint, functionParameters: array) {} |
| 10:58.20 | Shirik | KeBugCheck() is from back when blue screens did not support parameters like they do now |
| 10:58.36 | Shirik | Kalroth: That's called Java |
| 10:58.38 | Kalroth | That way I can handle function names and parameters in a single function! |
| 10:58.56 | Jamash | so when they add a second new version do they call it SomeFunctionExEx() ? |
| 10:59.04 | Shirik | lol Jamash |
| 10:59.10 | Maldivia | Shirik: naah, that would be reflection |
| 10:59.11 | Kalroth | Jamash: They usually use it to differ between win16 and win32 |
| 10:59.13 | zenzio | we should just go back to assembly; and branch |
| 10:59.29 | Shirik | Actually, Jamash |
| 10:59.31 | Shirik | I just did a search |
| 10:59.39 | zenzio | grats |
| 10:59.42 | Shirik | http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd317805(VS.85).aspx |
| 10:59.57 | Kalroth | hahah |
| 11:01.28 | Jamash | I should be surprised, but I'm not |
| 11:02.02 | Shirik | I think it's hilarious |
| 11:02.07 | zenzio | there's no definite guideline for it though, which is why the GUI team made an ExtTextOut() instead of TextOutEx() |
| 11:02.20 | Jamash | 16 bit, 32 bit, 64 bit |
| 11:02.33 | Shirik | Hrm |
| 11:02.39 | Shirik | Actually, it seems Microsoft has not come to a standard |
| 11:02.46 | Fisker- | Shirik |
| 11:02.50 | Jamash | when we go to 128 bit processors they'll be called ExExEx and be banned due to immorality |
| 11:02.50 | Fisker- | go work for Blizzard EU |
| 11:02.51 | Shirik | Some of their APIs use "Ex2" http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms775104(VS.85).aspx |
| 11:02.56 | Fisker- | i want my damn battle.net merges |
| 11:03.35 | zenzio | I believe Raymond Chen wrote a small piece about their function naming a little while ago |
| 11:04.59 | Shirik | p.s. I have no problem using an ExExEx function |
| 11:05.15 | Shirik | Or maybe we should just follow Intel's convention |
| 11:05.17 | Jamash | I blame static typing |
| 11:05.20 | Xinhuan | if you have an addon with GPL liscence on it, then later decided to remove the GPL on it, how does this work out for future versions and previous versions with different liscence terms? |
| 11:05.22 | Shirik | -ex for 32 bit, -rex for 64 bit |
| 11:05.24 | zenzio | http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/30/8560817.aspx -- so apparently there is a "convention" now |
| 11:05.27 | Fisker- | wtf is a moniker? |
| 11:05.39 | Jamash | Xinhuan: If the entire addon is copyright to you, you can modify the license terms at will |
| 11:05.49 | Xinhuan | yes, but how does it affect things |
| 11:05.52 | Fisker- | the previous versions will still be licensed to GPL |
| 11:06.08 | Jamash | But if anyone else has contributed to it, you can't relicense their work without permission |
| 11:06.10 | Fisker- | you can't say that the new license applies to the old versions released under the GPL |
| 11:06.26 | Shirik | Fisker-: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms775149(VS.85).aspx |
| 11:06.50 | Shirik | Monikers are wonders of the COM world |
| 11:06.53 | Xinhuan | would some random person then be able to take the "last GPL version", modify it to the "latest non-GPL version" and redistribute it? |
| 11:06.58 | Jamash | moniker moniker moniker moniker |
| 11:07.04 | Jamash | Xinhuan: No. |
| 11:07.30 | Jamash | The "latest non-GPL version" license would not permit that. |
| 11:07.36 | Fisker- | Should be able to if he doesn't use your code |
| 11:07.50 | Shirik | Xinhuan: Basically, look at it like this |
| 11:08.03 | Shirik | When you removed the GPL and changed to a different license, you didn't "undistribute" those |
| 11:08.16 | nevcairiel | Xinhuan: they can do anythign the liecense permits to the last version released under GPL, anything after that, and you can proof they took the latest update and didn't modify it themself .. bad |
| 11:08.17 | Shirik | Anyone that got it from you still has it under the GPL, and in fact MUST still release it under the GPL |
| 11:08.31 | Shirik | You, however, have the right to release under as many licenses you want, even concurrently |
| 11:09.13 | Shirik | The license that the specific user got is the one that applies |
| 11:09.37 | Jamash | Xinhuan: What sort of license are you considering changing from the GPL to? |
| 11:09.41 | nevcairiel | Qt used to do that, one open-source edition on GPL, and one prop version you had to pay for |
| 11:09.45 | Xinhuan | to none ;p |
| 11:09.50 | Fisker- | ? |
| 11:10.00 | Jamash | well, you mean ceasing distribution? |
| 11:10.18 | Shirik | Xinhuan: Basically, that means that anyone who already got a copy still has the right to redistribute THAT VERSION of the program |
| 11:10.29 | Adys | http://xkcd.com/562/ |
| 11:10.55 | Xinhuan | hmm |
| 11:11.15 | Jamash | It's part of the purpose of the GPL to make sure nobody upstream can remove rights from those downstream |
| 11:13.10 | zenzio | I wish the people who wrote the licences would use that phrase somewhere (if they didn't already) |
| 11:13.26 | Jamash | what phrase? |
| 11:13.34 | zenzio | well, your entire sentence actually |
| 11:14.21 | Jamash | the GPL has a fairly long prologue that explains the concepts behind it |
| 11:14.33 | zenzio | exactly. Long :) |
| 11:14.43 | nevcairiel | the GPL is way too wordy for my taste |
| 11:14.53 | zenzio | you *should* read and understand it, but for those not familiar with such things, your sentence would be e nice introduction |
| 11:15.14 | zenzio | I know the GPL messes up my head if I try to understand it all |
| 11:15.28 | Jamash | if I included the GPL with my addon it would probably double the download size |
| 11:15.37 | zenzio | haha |
| 11:15.42 | nevcairiel | Like, read the BSD license, its straight on the point, granted its alot different to the GPL, but still |
| 11:15.43 | zenzio | before or after you zipped it? |
| 11:15.53 | Jamash | either |
| 11:16.17 | Jamash | the GPL v3 is 34k |
| 11:16.22 | Xinhuan | ok what i'm reading is, if my addon is under GPL, anyone can take a copy of it and redistribute it free, or for a fee right? |
| 11:16.41 | Jamash | my addon (uncompressed) is 34.9k |
| 11:16.42 | zenzio | from my understanding (which may be entirely wrong) of the GPL, it should be possible to shorten it somewhat... but I guess their law-guys felt it was best to use the long form |
| 11:16.57 | Jamash | Xinhuan: Yes |
| 11:17.02 | nevcairiel | They can only charge for the cost of physical distribution |
| 11:17.17 | Jamash | actually they can charge whatever they feel like |
| 11:17.45 | Xinhuan | so if someone is charging for the addon, would it affect me (as the author) for wow's new UI policy? |
| 11:18.09 | Jamash | Xinhuan: it's up to blizzard, but really it's out of your hands so I doubt they'd go after you for it |
| 11:18.10 | Fisker- | i can't see how it would |
| 11:18.49 | Adys | isnt there a short version of the gpl3 ? |
| 11:19.09 | Jamash | I doubt it |
| 11:20.12 | Shirik | ok night |
| 11:20.32 | Jamash | The FSF is not as user friendly as, say, Creative Commons |
| 11:21.08 | Xinhuan | /rolleyes |
| 11:21.21 | selckin | CC used to have a nice wizard and short version even of the gpl with readable bullet points |
| 11:21.28 | Adys | yeah |
| 11:21.30 | Adys | still does |
| 11:21.34 | Adys | thats what Im talking about |
| 11:21.53 | Adys | why shouldnt gpl have the same? too good for readable stuff? |
| 11:22.00 | selckin | i usually just go with MIT since i don't even understand whats in the gpl |
| 11:22.16 | Jamash | Adys: More or less |
| 11:22.40 | Adys | selckin: isnt MIT more or less the same as BSD? |
| 11:22.44 | Jamash | selckin: MIT is fine as long as you don't mind other people using your work in proprietary software |
| 11:22.58 | Jamash | Adys: yeah, they're pretty much the same |
| 11:23.05 | selckin | Adys: it is |
| 11:23.18 | Adys | I like how people feel like making new licenses when they correct typos |
| 11:23.24 | zenzio | O_o |
| 11:23.35 | Adys | next time I make a GIMP plugin I'm gonna fork it to ship it with |
| 11:23.36 | selckin | http://creativecommons.org/license/cc-gpl |
| 11:23.41 | selckin | only has human readable for gpl 2 |
| 11:23.44 | Jamash | there's too many licenses |
| 11:25.22 | selckin | and i don't mind proprietary being able to use it |
| 11:25.44 | Jamash | one oddity about WoW is the Addon Kit extracts all the Blizzard Lua and XML files but doesn't provide a license for them |
| 11:26.15 | Jamash | so technically my addon (which uses modified versions of Blizzard functions) is in violation of copyright law |
| 11:26.19 | Jamash | as is wowcompares, etc |
| 11:26.24 | selckin | copying it from one place on your hd to another doesn't change the license |
| 11:27.20 | Xinhuan | heh |
| 11:27.28 | Xinhuan | do you intend to ask blizz to clarify it? ;p |
| 11:27.47 | Jamash | maybe, maybe not |
| 11:28.07 | selckin | even considering that is silly |
| 11:28.16 | Jamash | selckin: how is it silly |
| 11:28.39 | selckin | completely pointless and wastes everyone's time |
| 11:28.55 | Jamash | selckin: considering what? |
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| 11:28.58 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 11:29.08 | krka | Jamash: why does it need a license? standard copyright law applies |
| 11:29.25 | Jamash | krka: It needs a license if people are to be able to copy and redistribute it |
| 11:29.51 | krka | why would anyone need to copy and redistribute blizzards lua and xml files? |
| 11:30.03 | Xinhuan | well lets take a look at wowcompares |
| 11:30.05 | Jamash | http://wowcompares.com/ |
| 11:30.07 | krka | wowcompares is probably oked by blizzard |
| 11:30.14 | Xinhuan | they host a copy of every version's files |
| 11:30.18 | krka | sure |
| 11:30.20 | Jamash | "probably" |
| 11:30.24 | krka | if blizzard has a problem with it, they can sue |
| 11:30.33 | krka | or do a DMCA takedown thing |
| 11:30.37 | krka | or ask friendly to take it down |
| 11:30.39 | nevcairiel | krka: well some people c/p a file directly into their addon, then modify it to suit their needs |
| 11:30.58 | Jamash | that's my point, is that Blizzard is allowing their copyrighted material to be used in direct contradiction to their license |
| 11:31.01 | nevcairiel | or a specific function, at least |
| 11:31.12 | Legorol | Jamash: that is the sole prerogative of the copyright holder though |
| 11:31.20 | Jamash | It'd be nice to have an explicit license to use the blizzard code |
| 11:31.43 | Legorol | it'd open a can of worms |
| 11:31.46 | Jamash | Legorol: It puts everyone who uses Blizzard code in legal limbo |
| 11:31.55 | Jamash | the can is open, and the worms are everywhere |
| 11:32.14 | Legorol | no jamash, it's very simple: everyone is doing something illegal, and Blizzard (at its sole discretion) can grant individual permissions, or sue. technically. |
| 11:32.23 | Legorol | practically, life is not so black and white, and doesn't work that way |
| 11:33.18 | Legorol | when you copy blizz's code, unless you have Blizz's permission, you do so at your own responsibility |
| 11:33.26 | Jamash | Legorol: that's my point |
| 11:33.35 | Legorol | now knowing Blizz's track record, they won't sue the small time addon author, and instead they will ask you politely first if they have a problem |
| 11:33.52 | Legorol | but by not giving out a license, they reserve the right to sue, which is fine imo |
| 11:34.12 | Jamash | I'd rather not be under the eternal threat of lawsuit |
| 11:34.24 | Legorol | are you doing something that you think you'd be sued for? |
| 11:34.30 | Legorol | if not, then you aren't under that threat :) |
| 11:34.46 | Legorol | don't think of a lawsuit as a random, whimsical thing, usually you'd have to do something to warrant it :) |
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| 11:34.54 | Jamash | Just because I don't think they will sue does not mean that they have no grounds to sue. |
| 11:35.13 | selckin | just because they have grounds to sue doesn't mean you're doing something they disaprove |
| 11:35.22 | Legorol | selckin wins the thread |
| 11:35.29 | Jamash | Just because they don't disapprove today doesn't mean they won't disapprove tomorrow. |
| 11:35.35 | Jamash | see the new addon policy |
| 11:35.39 | Legorol | and if they disapprove tomorrow, they'll let you know |
| 11:35.43 | Legorol | just like with the new addon policy |
| 11:35.43 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8522892947&sid=1#6 -> http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8523023212&sid=1 (Funniest thread evar) |
| 11:35.44 | krka | if you hosted something like wowcompares, i'd worry |
| 11:35.53 | krka | are you worrying for wowcompares sake? |
| 11:36.01 | Jamash | I'm not worrying for anyone's sake |
| 11:36.01 | krka | or exactly what are you worrying about? |
| 11:36.02 | Legorol | if you hosted something like wowcompares, you'd probably ask first |
| 11:36.30 | Jamash | I'm stating a point of view that I would prefer it if blizzard gave an explicit license with their code |
| 11:36.42 | selckin | they have more important things todo |
| 11:36.47 | Legorol | the point i'm making is that in life, not everything is about suits and legal/illegal, there are some sensible things people (and even a corporation like Blizzard) do first |
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| 11:36.53 | Jamash | selckin: apparently not |
| 11:37.07 | nevcairiel | I'm pretty sure anyone running around on the internet on a regular basis has given someone grounds to be sue at least once. |
| 11:37.16 | krka | if someone started selling a service that did something like wowcompares, blizzard would sue and win easily |
| 11:37.17 | nevcairiel | -be |
| 11:37.28 | Jamash | Legorol: Except with the new policy suddenly there is the threat of suit |
| 11:37.40 | krka | personally i wouldn't include code from the blizzard code base in my addons |
| 11:37.46 | Legorol | Jamash: you mean the clause in the policy saying "we may sue"? |
| 11:37.56 | Jamash | Legorol: Yes |
| 11:37.56 | Legorol | well the policy is your first warning |
| 11:38.00 | nevcairiel | everyone keeps obsessing about that line |
| 11:38.05 | nevcairiel | but they could've sued you before |
| 11:38.08 | selckin | unless you're causing harm, nobody cares |
| 11:38.10 | Jamash | So should I strip all the blizzard code from my addon? |
| 11:38.12 | Legorol | if blizz wanted to sue you for something other than the stuff int he policy, they'd give you warning probably |
| 11:38.25 | Legorol | Jamash: no you shouldn't strip it |
| 11:38.31 | Jamash | I'm not interested in "probably" |
| 11:38.40 | Legorol | all right, i'll make that a definitely :) |
| 11:38.48 | nevcairiel | If you want to take absolutely no risk whatsoever, lock yourself in some room :) |
| 11:38.50 | Legorol | unless your addon violates the addon policy, you won't get sued |
| 11:39.08 | Legorol | if your addon does something else they don't like, i'm sure you'll get a warning first |
| 11:39.25 | Jamash | All I'm saying is I'd like a one-sentence note that it is permissible to redistribute blizzard code as part of addons for wow |
| 11:39.26 | krka | omg i can't run around naked on the freeway, the police would probably catch me... i wish they could be clear about that |
| 11:39.34 | Adys | [14:38:10] <Jamash> So should I strip all the blizzard code from my addon? |
| 11:39.34 | Adys | [14:38:48] <nevcairiel> If you want to take absolutely no risk whatsoever, lock yourself in some room :) |
| 11:39.34 | Adys | [14:39:26] <krka> omg i can't run around naked on the freeway, the police would probably catch me... i wish they could be clear about that |
| 11:39.39 | Adys | I'm totally reading different stuff |
| 11:39.44 | Adys | totally |
| 11:39.44 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 11:40.13 | Legorol | Jamash: they won't give a permission like that, because it strips them of some rights they'd rather reserve to themselves |
| 11:40.19 | krka | Jamash: why would you want to redistribute blizzard code anyway? just rewrite the code that you need |
| 11:40.29 | krka | i've _NEVER_ had to use any of blizzards code |
| 11:40.31 | Legorol | krka: copy/pasting templates for exaple |
| 11:40.34 | krka | and i think that goes for most addons |
| 11:40.37 | nevcairiel | I usually only use their code to look how the APIs are used |
| 11:40.55 | Jamash | I will give a specific example |
| 11:41.03 | Fisker- | OOH FORUM MAINTANENCE |
| 11:41.04 | Legorol | I think there are good reasons for copying chunks of Blizzard code. I also think that Blizz won't sue over that. |
| 11:41.05 | Fisker- | fail |
| 11:41.32 | foxlit | 1. Distribute addons through pirate bay. 2. ??? 3. Profit. |
| 11:41.38 | Legorol | Jamash: consider screenshots and machinimas. Technically, most of them are copyright violations. Practically, Blizzard doesn't only look the other way, but encourages them. Did they ever give a specific license? No. |
| 11:41.44 | Jamash | My addon has buttons with spells on them. I wish for them to behave like buttons in the spellbook. I copied (and extensively modified) several functions from SpellBookFrame.lua |
| 11:41.52 | krka | are screenshots copyrighted? |
| 11:42.01 | Jamash | Screenshots are widely considered Fair Use |
| 11:42.02 | krka | wouldn't that be like with photography? |
| 11:42.09 | foxlit | "Did they ever give a specific license?" << I do think they did |
| 11:42.25 | Legorol | krka: I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be able to make a 100% certain decision :) Look at the Glider case, screenshots did come up. |
| 11:42.28 | foxlit | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/machinima/letter.html |
| 11:42.36 | Fisker- | lol |
| 11:42.40 | krka | the one taking the screenshot should have copyright on it, just like a photographer has copyright on what he photos, even if the photo itself contain images of other stuff that's copyrighted |
| 11:42.41 | Fisker- | thought you wrote "Private bay" |
| 11:42.42 | Fisker- | :E |
| 11:42.45 | krka | as long as it's not just a photocopy |
| 11:42.47 | Legorol | foxlit: i thought that applied to music |
| 11:42.56 | foxlit | "First and foremost, Blizzard Entertainment requires that the use of World of Warcraft and other Blizzard products must be limited to non-commercial purposes. |
| 11:42.56 | foxlit | " |
| 11:43.03 | foxlit | So it's the same sort of crap as the addon policy |
| 11:43.17 | Jamash | except videos of wow are derivative works of wow |
| 11:43.18 | Legorol | hm ok i seem to be one step behind |
| 11:43.23 | Jamash | addons are not, necessarily |
| 11:43.29 | Legorol | i've seen their license for using their music in machinimas, haven't seen the one foxlit linked |
| 11:43.31 | Legorol | thanks foxlit |
| 11:45.03 | Legorol | it's very interesting, this machinima license is very similar to the new ui policy thing |
| 11:45.19 | Legorol | if this machnimia license has been around for long, and people have been happy with it, why are they suddenly in uproar over the ui policy :) |
| 11:45.29 | Jamash | because of the derivative work issue |
| 11:45.40 | foxlit | It's also *less* restrictive |
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| 11:45.49 | Legorol | ok |
| 11:46.23 | Jamash | I don't think anyone would argue that you should be able to sell a video with blizzard copyrighted textures, sounds, music, models, etc in it |
| 11:46.27 | foxlit | "Inclusion of Sponsor Names, Logos, or Affiliates" << in other words, sane advertising limits |
| 11:47.09 | Jamash | whereas selling an addon that is not in any way a derivative work of anything blizzard's is not obviously a violation of blizzard's rights |
| 11:47.25 | Jamash | foxlit: excellent point |
| 11:48.26 | Legorol | Jamash: I agree that in the case of an addon, it's more contentious whether it's a derivative work or not. |
| 11:48.52 | Legorol | (Note that despite not including any of Blizzard's UI code, an addon can still be aderivative work, and needs a bunch of lawyers and/or a court to decide if it is or isn't) |
| 11:49.25 | krka | Legorol: hah, going down that route again |
| 11:50.02 | krka | short answer, addons by default aren't derivative, since blizzard intentionally opened up the plugin environment |
| 11:51.33 | Legorol | krka: I think we'd go in circles, so let's not go into it again :) |
| 11:52.31 | Legorol | krka: although I'm not sure what constitutes "intentionally opening" the environment |
| 11:52.46 | Jamash | they provide explicit tools and facilities for addon authorship |
| 11:52.50 | Legorol | the only legal context (before the policy) in which ui mods are mentioned is in the ToU which permits approved mods. |
| 11:52.57 | Legorol | now they clarified what they mean by approved |
| 11:53.31 | Jamash | except that's the end user license, which covers use (not creation or sale) of addons |
| 11:53.43 | Legorol | true |
| 11:53.58 | Legorol | so does that means that until now they provided no legal documents regarding the creation of addons |
| 11:54.04 | Jamash | pretty much |
| 11:54.06 | Legorol | does this necessarily count as "opening up"? |
| 11:54.12 | Jamash | yes |
| 11:54.19 | Legorol | this is why i'm saying you'd need a lawyer to answer these questions :) |
| 11:55.21 | Legorol | even though my immediate feeling is that an addon should be an independent work and not derivative, i'm in no way convinced that US law or a US court would agree with me |
| 11:55.36 | Jamash | is a program that uses the windows api a derivative work of windows? |
| 11:55.38 | Jamash | no |
| 11:55.44 | Legorol | Jamash, bad analogy |
| 11:55.47 | Jamash | not really |
| 11:55.57 | Jamash | it's an exact analogy, in fact |
| 11:56.12 | Jamash | an api is an api is an api |
| 11:56.51 | Legorol | all right, i'll entertain this thought for a moment just for the sake of intellectual discussion :) |
| 11:57.02 | Jamash | You can't even copyright an api |
| 11:57.20 | Legorol | let's say Blizzard suddenly released a statement saying that their UI API is strictly for internal use, and you are not supposed to modify WoW |
| 11:57.34 | Jamash | then any user who did would be subject to being banned |
| 11:57.40 | Legorol | the fact that you are able to write Lua and XML files that interface with that API and modify WoW doesn't necessarily give you permission to do so then |
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| 11:57.55 | Legorol | ok, now consider this jamash: |
| 11:58.05 | Jamash | but the issue of end user permission and author permission are distinct |
| 11:58.06 | Legorol | WoW has a (supposedly intended for internal use) API |
| 11:58.10 | Legorol | yes i understand that |
| 11:58.15 | Legorol | i'll get to author permission in a moment :) |
| 11:58.29 | Legorol | now consider an author who writes a small addon |
| 11:58.43 | Legorol | how is this author different from someone who writes a 3-line patch for WoW's code? |
| 11:58.51 | Jamash | ... |
| 11:59.11 | Jamash | They are different by not being the same. |
| 11:59.15 | Legorol | you can use windows notepad, write the patch in C, or directly in a hex editor |
| 11:59.36 | Jamash | A modified WoW binary is a derivative work |
| 11:59.41 | Jamash | An addon isn't. |
| 11:59.42 | Legorol | the point I'm making is that the line is very blurred between a patch to WoW's code and something using an internal API |
| 11:59.56 | Jamash | except the addon api is not an internal api, it's an external api |
| 11:59.57 | Legorol | (again, let me reiterate: i'm not claiming the API is internal, just doing a what-if right now) |
| 12:00.04 | Legorol | please, read again what i typed |
| 12:00.07 | Jamash | actually the line is not blurred |
| 12:00.13 | Legorol | i'll come to the distinction between internal and external again |
| 12:00.18 | Jamash | apis are apis, patches are patches, apples are not oranges |
| 12:00.20 | Legorol | for now, please entertain the thought that the API is internal |
| 12:00.38 | Jamash | it used to be |
| 12:00.56 | Legorol | consider for a moment the hypothetical scenario that WoW is a fully closed product, has an internal API, and you are not supposed to modify it |
| 12:00.56 | Jamash | they changed it to provide facilities expressely for the use of addon authors |
| 12:01.12 | Legorol | Jamash: can you please at least try and go along with the thought experiment? |
| 12:01.20 | Legorol | if not, then there is no point to this discussion :) |
| 12:01.37 | Jamash | okay |
| 12:02.00 | Jamash | I have a question I will ask at the end of the presentation |
| 12:02.02 | Legorol | sure |
| 12:02.19 | Legorol | under the circumstances described, i think a patch and an addon would be modifying WoW the same way |
| 12:02.38 | Legorol | both require a knowledge of the internal workings of the game, both are small products created by you |
| 12:02.55 | Jamash | okay |
| 12:03.08 | Legorol | the fact that an addon is in plain text is not really relevant imo, both of them are small snippets that are useless by themselves and are only useful when integrated into WoW |
| 12:03.15 | Adys | Tomorrow on google, purl's wowuidev logs will be indexed for equimasophilia |
| 12:03.18 | Legorol | in the case of an addon, said integration is a bit easier |
| 12:03.29 | Jamash | I never argued anything about the plain textiness |
| 12:03.32 | Legorol | ok |
| 12:03.50 | Legorol | so udner this (hypothetical) circumstances, writing an addon would be somehow creating a derivative work i think |
| 12:04.08 | Jamash | nah |
| 12:04.08 | Legorol | you are absolutely right that the circumstances aren't like this, as the API has been opened up in some sense |
| 12:04.23 | Legorol | the question is, to what extent has it been opened up |
| 12:04.29 | Jamash | it'd be against the TOU and EULA but not necessarily a derivative work |
| 12:04.38 | Legorol | a patch would be a derivative work |
| 12:04.51 | Jamash | a patch would *create* a derivative work |
| 12:04.58 | Jamash | a modified binary |
| 12:05.18 | Jamash | the patch itself could be created in such a way as to include no code from the executable it modifies |
| 12:05.50 | Legorol | i'm afraid you'll find that there are court rulings (in both directions actually), some of which say that a third party product whose sole purpose is to modify the original product is a derivative work |
| 12:06.13 | Legorol | i think the problem is that you think that a derivative work can only arise if you are directly including code from the original, but that is not so |
| 12:06.33 | Legorol | example: if i wrote an extra chapter for one of the Harry Potter books, I'd be creating a derivative work |
| 12:07.28 | Legorol | of course i can be totally wrong on this :) on the internet, everyone's a lawyer, including me |
| 12:07.32 | Legorol | and i could be a bad lawyer ;) |
| 12:08.20 | Legorol | I think that when people discuss this issue of whether an AddOn is a derivative work or not, they are too focused on the inclusion of actual Blizzard UI code. In my understanding, the notion of derivative works goes a bit beyond that. |
| 12:09.13 | Legorol | krka linked some nice pages (I don't have the link here) which discuss this nicely |
| 12:10.13 | Legorol | mmm, lunch time |
| 12:10.30 | Legorol | i'll read back the log later :) catch you later |
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| 12:16.22 | Aelobin | cheers. |
| 12:20.32 | Adys | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FUHJgMAbbQ&feature=channel |
| 12:20.33 | Adys | bahahahah |
| 12:20.49 | Adys | "Out loud please, I'm not a fucking mind reader" |
| 12:21.04 | Adys | that's the most epic quote ever |
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| 12:34.46 | Aelobin | whys the EU forums down againnnnnnnnn <_> |
| 12:36.01 | Fisker- | so they can start doing some battle.net shit hopefully |
| 12:36.02 | Fisker- | :3 |
| 12:37.21 | mikma | shuss troll |
| 12:37.39 | Fisker- | no u |
| 12:37.53 | mikma | u mom |
| 12:38.19 | Kaso | Adys i love derren brown |
| 12:38.26 | Adys | Kaso: get in line |
| 12:38.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Teomyr (i=teo@teomyr.eu) |
| 12:38.39 | mikma | Manlovers |
| 12:38.46 | Fisker- | what are you going to do mikma ? |
| 12:38.57 | mikma | fisker-: to your mom? |
| 12:39.30 | Fisker- | >:3? |
| 12:40.25 | mikma | i think i will scratch my pussy a while, then have a nap |
| 12:41.36 | Fisker- | hoho |
| 12:41.43 | Fisker- | A german died of drinking |
| 12:41.47 | Fisker- | 2 others in coma |
| 12:41.50 | Fisker- | darwin wins yet again |
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| 12:45.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@141.222.29.18) |
| 12:45.50 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 12:46.13 | zenzio | ninjahuggles Lopeppeppy |
| 12:46.58 | Fisker- | ninjakills zenzelezz |
| 12:46.59 | Fisker- | fu |
| 12:47.06 | zenzio | ninjaresurrects |
| 12:47.10 | Lopeppeppy | OMG, ninjar! |
| 12:47.35 | *** join/#wowuidev [draco] (n=drc@brsg-4dbb13e1.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 12:47.41 | Fisker- | wonders why it can take some europeans a week to allow account merges |
| 12:49.51 | Lopeppeppy | Sheer hatred. |
| 12:49.56 | Lopeppeppy | Or lack of marshmallow Peeps. |
| 12:50.29 | zenzio | peeps at Lopeppeppy's marshmallows |
| 12:50.46 | Lopeppeppy | See? Everyone adores Peeps. |
| 12:51.57 | Fisker- | slaps Lopeppeppy around a bit with a large trout |
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| 12:53.12 | Lopeppeppy | Oh whatever, Fisker. I'm immune to your pranks. |
| 12:53.48 | Fisker- | :( |
| 12:54.02 | Fisker- | I just want to merge my account |
| 12:54.15 | Lopeppeppy | Then follow the process, and bloody well do it. |
| 12:54.31 | Lopeppeppy | I'll bet the slowdown right now is due to the bugs they're working out, which were discovered by those of us who merged early. |
| 12:54.48 | Fisker- | naw |
| 12:54.56 | Lopeppeppy | Trust me, those flaws suck it. |
| 12:54.56 | Fisker- | No bugs as far as anyone can tell |
| 12:56.03 | zenzio | We are Battle.net. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. |
| 12:56.12 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, completely. |
| 12:56.17 | Fisker- | did they remove the pet btw? |
| 12:56.21 | Lopeppeppy | Pet? |
| 12:56.23 | Fisker- | Yeah |
| 12:56.28 | Fisker- | In beta you got a pet for merging |
| 12:58.11 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, yeah, no pet for merging, sorry. |
| 12:58.38 | Fisker- | k |
| 12:58.55 | foxlit | Murphy's Law states that that is a bug |
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| 12:59.10 | foxlit | That they'll eventually patch. And then you'll be short a pet if you merged before they did. |
| 13:01.51 | Fisker- | naw |
| 13:02.16 | Fisker- | The US got plenty of brains! |
| 13:02.36 | Fisker- | They just do like they did with CE, resend the quest item to get it |
| 13:02.54 | zenzio | so certain are you? </Yoda> |
| 13:03.11 | foxlit | zenzio: <Yoda> expected, got "so" |
| 13:03.13 | zenzio | maybe they made a mistake like with the first arena-dragon-mounts |
| 13:03.19 | Fisker- | fuck the shut up you must? |
| 13:03.20 | Fisker- | :3 |
| 13:30.18 | Fisker- | ewww |
| 13:30.21 | Fisker- | Lopeppeppy is a mvp |
| 13:30.49 | Lopeppeppy | Um... this is a newsflash for you? |
| 13:31.12 | Fisker- | i don't visit the US forums much |
| 13:31.12 | Fisker- | :P |
| 13:33.23 | Lopeppeppy | I guess not, because I've been one for over a year now. |
| 13:33.36 | zenzio | all this time, Fisker thought we were just role playing when we spoke of peppy as a dino |
| 13:33.49 | Lopeppeppy | I guess maybe. :) |
| 13:34.01 | zenzio | after all, it *is* FIsker |
| 13:34.20 | Lopeppeppy | IS it, zenzio? Or is it perhaps another login for malreth? |
| 13:34.37 | zenzio | that's a scary, but possible, thought |
| 13:35.53 | Lopeppeppy | Scary R Us. Dino, after all. |
| 13:36.15 | zenzio | scarysaurus |
| 13:36.19 | Lopeppeppy | Rawr. |
| 13:41.23 | Fisker- | my rage level |
| 13:41.26 | Fisker- | it's over 9000 |
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| 14:07.55 | Fisker- | You hear that? |
| 14:08.09 | Adys | yeah its you not shutting up |
| 14:08.33 | Fisker- | :( |
| 14:08.39 | krimpsok | :o |
| 14:09.28 | Legorol | <sarcasm> I love the friendly atmosphere </sarcasm> |
| 14:09.39 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah, we all suck. |
| 14:09.44 | Adys | its your sarcasm ruining it all |
| 14:10.24 | Lopeppeppy | Well, yeah, Peppy's fangs drip sarcasm like a virulent poison for the sheeple. |
| 14:10.25 | Fisker- | Just funny that someone argued the e-mail sent to the EU customers about Blizzard EU being the "new base of operations" would be an april fool |
| 14:10.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: funny thing. I stumbled upon your wowwiki page when taking a look at my wiki commits |
| 14:10.32 | Legorol | on a different note: finally, after three weeks of doing Shatt daily each day, I got Kibler's bits recipe. Yay me. This makes my Death Knight a Chef :o) |
| 14:10.39 | Lopeppeppy | Really? How are they linked, ScytheBlade1? |
| 14:10.51 | ScytheBlade1 | I added a quote to her page apparently |
| 14:10.55 | ScytheBlade1 | "The scripting interface has no access to the internet, by design. WoW runs inside of a closed box, internets don't get in and internets don't leak out." --Lopeppeppy |
| 14:10.56 | Lopeppeppy | My page is the only thing I've ever done on WoW Wiki besides read and marvel. |
| 14:11.07 | Lopeppeppy | Aww, that's an adorabubble Peppy quote. |
| 14:11.24 | ScytheBlade1 | Which is probably why I added it to your page forever ago |
| 14:11.36 | ScytheBlade1 | July 9th of 08 it seems |
| 14:11.39 | Lopeppeppy | Aren't you the sweetest thing? *hug* |
| 14:11.47 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 14:11.49 | ScytheBlade1 | :) |
| 14:12.15 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8522983446&sid=1&pageNo=2#34 <-It's all just a joke :( |
| 14:12.42 | Legorol | I think people had a brainfilter on when reading the email. |
| 14:13.30 | Legorol | It's the EU operations they are moving to EU, not their development work >.< |
| 14:13.41 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 14:14.11 | krimpsok | But why would they have EU operations in the US?... |
| 14:14.22 | Legorol | krimpsok: it's all just an administrative/legal thing |
| 14:14.35 | ScytheBlade1 | EU is (currently) relatively "tied" to the US operations |
| 14:14.37 | Fisker- | ^^ |
| 14:14.45 | krimpsok | I see, nvm that question then ;) |
| 14:14.52 | krka | maybe the scripting interface sends out internets, but they get clogged. i once sent an internet on friday and it didnt arrive until monday! |
| 14:14.54 | ScytheBlade1 | They're splitting it off, like they did for asia |
| 14:15.00 | Legorol | rofl krka |
| 14:15.05 | Fisker- | "lizzard Entertainment, Inc. is your contractual partner for the performance of the Service." |
| 14:15.08 | Fisker- | err |
| 14:15.14 | krimpsok | haha |
| 14:15.15 | Fisker- | Lizard Entertainment! |
| 14:15.18 | Fisker- | Blizzard of course :P |
| 14:15.30 | Legorol | exactly, the legal entity you are contracting with is changing, hence the email |
| 14:15.31 | Teomyr | where is lizzard help |
| 14:15.35 | Fisker- | So from April 14th it'll be Blizzard Entertainment Europe |
| 14:15.56 | krimpsok | Hmm need to check my inbox then.. Been awhile since I got mail from blizz |
| 14:15.58 | Fisker- | this also means that 3.1 is due april 14th! !11 OMGg |
| 14:16.08 | Legorol | actually, it will be Blizzard Entertainment S.A.S. |
| 14:16.16 | Legorol | we'll have swat teams storming us from Blizzard |
| 14:16.19 | Fisker- | fuck |
| 14:16.29 | Fisker- | SAS is british! |
| 14:16.38 | Lopeppeppy | Mrph? |
| 14:16.47 | Legorol | but S.A.S. is french for LLC, if i'm not mistaken |
| 14:16.53 | ScytheBlade1 | ha |
| 14:16.55 | Fisker- | Special Air Service! |
| 14:16.57 | ScytheBlade1 | From one of the random blogs I read |
| 14:17.02 | ScytheBlade1 | "We're not talking about normal everyday people. We're talking about programmers. Citizens of the internet. People who swear allegiance not to a country, but a compiler." |
| 14:17.30 | Legorol | rofl |
| 14:19.08 | jnwhiteh | Can anyone here help me with a python question? |
| 14:19.14 | ScytheBlade1 | hhhhhhhhhssssssssssssssss |
| 14:19.20 | ScytheBlade1 | HHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSss |
| 14:19.21 | ScytheBlade1 | sssss |
| 14:19.28 | jnwhiteh | that answers everything, thanks! |
| 14:19.30 | ScytheBlade1 | np |
| 14:19.36 | Lopeppeppy | I think that ScytheBlade1 is opting out. |
| 14:19.51 | Fisker- | i believe ScytheBlade1 is wrong |
| 14:22.52 | Teomyr | what issssss your quessssstion? |
| 14:23.09 | jnwhiteh | i'm looking for the equivalent of the following Lua (ish) |
| 14:24.17 | jnwhiteh | files = {"A", "B", "C"}; dates = {A = "2009:03:22 13:29:03", B = "2009:03:21 13:29:03", C = "2009:03:20 13:29:03"}; table.sort(files, function(a,b) return dates[a] < dates[b] end) |
| 14:25.05 | jnwhiteh | I need to sort a list based on criteria in some other mapping |
| 14:25.18 | cog|away | kmcguire: might want to stop off at the stardock before logging out for the night... It might not be a bad guy's limpet mine next time ;) |
| 14:26.07 | Legorol | when cog's away, the sprockets play! |
| 14:26.16 | Lopeppeppy | plays |
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| 14:29.12 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: you can call .sort() on the list object and give a lambda function as the cmp parameter |
| 14:29.27 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: eg. files.sort(cmp=lambda x, y: dates[x] < dates[y]) |
| 14:29.53 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: though that probably won't work if the dates are strings |
| 14:29.55 | jnwhiteh | oh interesting. |
| 14:30.21 | jnwhiteh | print sorted(d.items(), key=itemgetter(1)) |
| 14:30.25 | jnwhiteh | that may work as well? |
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| 14:32.02 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: possibly, yeah. never used sorted() before, but looks like it's correct |
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| 14:39.58 | jnwhiteh | Teomyr: any hints on how to get the date/time string to a unix timestamp so I can easily compare them? |
| 14:40.36 | jnwhiteh | i don't need anything horrily accurate.. it just needs to sort them correctly |
| 14:40.41 | jnwhiteh | i.e. time zones don't matter |
| 14:40.59 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: try using datetime.strptime() - http://docs.python.org/library/datetime.html#datetime.datetime.strptime |
| 14:41.16 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: that will give you a datetime object, which is sortable |
| 14:41.27 | jnwhiteh | ah okay |
| 14:41.46 | jnwhiteh | now I have to figure out the formas.. |
| 14:41.48 | jnwhiteh | formats |
| 14:42.39 | Teomyr | they're on the bottom of that page. it's a shame python doesn't have a quick and dirty function that attempts to guess the format :( |
| 14:44.14 | Addybot | http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/91195701 |
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| 14:44.23 | nevcairiel | addybot talks! |
| 14:44.38 | Adys | only when Im not around I bet |
| 14:45.12 | Teomyr | Addybot: yeah, i heard that too. never thought adys would do such a thing, it's embarrassing |
| 14:45.14 | jnwhiteh | Teomyr: 2.6.1 standard install, datetime doesn't appear to contain strptime? |
| 14:45.24 | Adys | so what was that python question anyway? |
| 14:45.34 | Adys | oh nvm |
| 14:45.36 | Adys | xchat fails |
| 14:45.37 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: it's datetime.datetime.strptime actually |
| 14:45.41 | jnwhiteh | oh jesus |
| 14:45.42 | jnwhiteh | lol |
| 14:46.16 | Arrowmaster | why the hell two datetime's |
| 14:46.52 | Teomyr | well, there's the module, datetime |
| 14:46.54 | Adys | one is the module |
| 14:46.57 | Adys | second is the class |
| 14:46.58 | jnwhiteh | hrm |
| 14:47.01 | jnwhiteh | this is not right |
| 14:47.04 | Teomyr | then there's datetime.time, datetime.date and datetime.datetime for a combination of both |
| 14:47.06 | Adys | from datetime import datetime; datetime.strptime |
| 14:47.27 | jnwhiteh | http://pastey.net/111223 |
| 14:47.29 | jnwhiteh | that's not properly sorted :P |
| 14:48.29 | Teomyr | jnwhiteh: are you sure you're sorting by date? looks like you're sorting by the filename |
| 14:48.58 | jnwhiteh | it was doing filenames |
| 14:49.04 | jnwhiteh | i thought i was soting :P |
| 14:49.07 | jnwhiteh | http://pastey.net/111224 |
| 14:49.26 | Adys | parenthese hell ew kill kill kill |
| 14:49.50 | jnwhiteh | ssh :p |
| 14:50.01 | Adys | there you go, THATS proper python |
| 14:50.49 | jnwhiteh | is images.sort() in-place? |
| 14:50.55 | Teomyr | yes |
| 14:51.25 | Adys | where does your output come from? |
| 14:51.58 | jnwhiteh | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:51.59 | jnwhiteh | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:52.04 | Teomyr | i think i messed something up in the example i gave above. try sorting without the cmp parameter |
| 14:52.05 | jnwhiteh | which prints the image and the metadata |
| 14:52.26 | Teomyr | or, no, wait |
| 14:53.10 | Teomyr | http://pastey.net/111225 |
| 14:53.32 | jnwhiteh | got it |
| 14:53.39 | jnwhiteh | cmp(imageData[x], imageData[y]) |
| 14:53.49 | jnwhiteh | hehe |
| 14:53.57 | jnwhiteh | jinx on the eureka :p |
| 14:54.46 | jnwhiteh | there now this script doesn't suck |
| 14:54.50 | jnwhiteh | it retries on failed uploads |
| 14:54.57 | Teomyr | hehe |
| 14:55.02 | jnwhiteh | and uploasd them sorted by creation date so they appear ordered in the photo stream |
| 14:55.05 | jnwhiteh | hurrah! |
| 14:55.14 | jnwhiteh | shitty flickr upload utils. |
| 14:55.58 | jnwhiteh | i wrote a fun python script the other day for my friend |
| 14:56.05 | jnwhiteh | he's doing a corpus analysis of craigslist sex ads |
| 14:56.12 | jnwhiteh | to determine what constitues "desire" |
| 14:56.26 | jnwhiteh | he's been subscribing to these RSS feeds in vienna for a long time now |
| 14:56.40 | Lopeppeppy | craigslist is funny. :) |
| 14:56.42 | jnwhiteh | so I go into his sqlite3 db, then pull the data out and spit it into text files so the analysis software can run efficiently on it |
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| 14:57.42 | ScytheBlade1 | http://london.craigslist.co.uk/w4w/1044427304.html <-- relevant |
| 14:57.56 | ScytheBlade1 | borderline nsfw in the text header |
| 14:58.55 | jnwhiteh | hehe |
| 14:59.33 | jnwhiteh | the flickr upload server is.. sad |
| 14:59.41 | jnwhiteh | i can rapid fire upload 4-5 full images |
| 14:59.46 | jnwhiteh | but then others will just effing crawl |
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| 15:06.52 | selckin | you're probably hitting diffrend servers anyway |
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| 15:07.56 | jnwhiteh | selckin: aye, but I mean.. this is all they do it should be fast damnit! |
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| 15:12.55 | selckin | bad load balancer is bad :( |
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| 16:14.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:14.22 | Jamash | goooooood morning |
| 16:15.13 | Lopeppeppy | Morning. |
| 16:18.19 | cncfanatics | goooood morning :) |
| 16:23.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Lunessa (n=Lunessa@129.7.88.59) |
| 16:24.01 | Lunessa | station |
| 16:24.19 | Jamash | station? |
| 16:24.22 | cog|away | Hai unkle Lunessa ! |
| 16:24.30 | Lunessa | oh hai. |
| 16:24.30 | Lopeppeppy | Morning, Lunessa-dear. |
| 16:28.05 | kamdis | Morning all |
| 16:28.59 | cog|work | hi2u |
| 16:29.13 | Lunessa | Morning Kamdis. |
| 16:35.48 | *** join/#wowuidev AckisWork (i=8ee55e3e@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Troll/Ackis) |
| 16:40.12 | *** join/#wowuidev purl (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 16:40.12 | *** topic/#wowuidev is Keep the channel civil. Debate is fine as long as it is respectful of each othersâ opinions and kept civilized, constructive and courteous. No flaming! No trolling! New WoW UI Development Policy http://tinyurl.com/c4ga6a |
| 16:41.03 | Lopeppeppy | I learned early, clear the whole instance, THEN kill bosses! |
| 16:42.57 | Fisker- | I did that once |
| 16:43.01 | Fisker- | But they're slooooooooooow |
| 16:43.24 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah, so? |
| 16:43.35 | Lunessa | Yeah, I came at it once from the other direction and though, oh hey - I'll just kill him and move on up stairs. Bad idea. |
| 16:44.31 | Lunessa | Soloing older instance can be fun, but sometimes you get too cocky. |
| 16:44.36 | nevcairiel | can't kill all trees at once? |
| 16:44.57 | nevcairiel | I'm 80, they are barely 60, wonder if that would work |
| 16:45.00 | nevcairiel | I need to try that |
| 16:45.13 | nevcairiel | (and of course i'm an overpowered druid, too) |
| 16:45.17 | Jamash | I was soloing Scholomance the other day and I got myself killed by aggroing a whole room |
| 16:45.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 16:45.33 | Jamash | level 80 != invincible |
| 16:45.48 | selckin | stuns || silence = dead |
| 16:45.58 | nevcairiel | They have to hit with the stun before |
| 16:46.05 | selckin | spellpushback too, but tthats nerfed now |
| 16:46.16 | nevcairiel | and even then, in bear form they hit me for really really low dmg |
| 16:46.18 | selckin | nevcairiel: well if you pull the whole room, you're sutnlocked :) |
| 16:46.28 | nevcairiel | which room? |
| 16:46.39 | Lunessa | nevcairiel: I was a fresh 80 in junk gear. There were too many for me to solo. |
| 16:46.52 | Jamash | um, the one with the locked door |
| 16:46.52 | selckin | i soloed maiden in kara yesterday :\ |
| 16:47.09 | nevcairiel | I'm farming attumen for the mount |
| 16:47.12 | nevcairiel | no luck so far |
| 16:47.17 | mikma | http://www.vimeo.com/3921311 |
| 16:47.19 | Lunessa | Though last night, for giggles I soloed all of Blackrock Spire. |
| 16:47.29 | Jamash | that's a lot of work for giggles |
| 16:47.33 | selckin | ugly mount imo |
| 16:47.47 | nevcairiel | alot better then the ugly baron mount |
| 16:47.50 | Lunessa | I had some old quests in my log. I wanted to wrap them up. |
| 16:47.53 | selckin | a warrior soloed ubrs at level 60 |
| 16:48.15 | selckin | i still use my bear as ground mount, just can't get enough of it |
| 16:48.25 | Lunessa | I'm not that good selckin. But Drakisath was a push over at 80 in Naxx gear. |
| 16:48.34 | Jamash | selckin: which bear? |
| 16:48.37 | selckin | zulaman |
| 16:48.47 | Jamash | wishes he had a zul'aman bear. |
| 16:49.44 | nevcairiel | the damn bear is still bugged |
| 16:49.52 | nevcairiel | i hate sitting *in* it |
| 16:50.35 | NeoTron | nevcairiel: on PTR or live? If it's on the PTR, is it at least the right size with the mouth open again? |
| 16:50.55 | nevcairiel | on live |
| 16:51.01 | nevcairiel | i'm going to test it on ptr |
| 16:51.04 | Lunessa | http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20090330 |
| 16:51.07 | NeoTron | rok. I think PTR is worse atm |
| 16:52.11 | nevcairiel | hm |
| 16:52.14 | nevcairiel | PTR looks fine to me |
| 16:53.05 | NeoTron | maybe they fixed it |
| 16:53.23 | NeoTron | I saw screenshots where the bear was smaller and its mouth was close making it look much more like a dalaran bear |
| 16:53.48 | nevcairiel | oh yeah the mouth is closed |
| 16:53.53 | nevcairiel | but i don't think its smaller |
| 16:54.57 | Jamash | so, who's going for the 100 mount achievement |
| 16:54.59 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (n=nevin@c-76-24-240-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 16:54.59 | nevcairiel | Still alot cooler then the other silly bears |
| 16:55.00 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 16:55.07 | NeoTron | I find it weird that a bear either has a closed mouth or an open mounth. no bear ever seems to change stance it seems :P |
| 16:55.07 | Jamash | murloc bear is not silly! |
| 16:55.24 | Lopeppeppy | Bears am sexy. |
| 16:55.28 | NeoTron | and I agree. probably still my favorite ground mount. I especially like the touch of the shrunken heads |
| 16:55.34 | TecnoBrat | I find it funny that we are riding bears |
| 16:55.41 | Jamash | bear cavalry! |
| 16:55.43 | TecnoBrat | they would eat us in one bite! |
| 16:56.03 | TecnoBrat | especially gnomes ... |
| 16:57.02 | Lopeppeppy | punts Technobrat |
| 16:59.25 | TecnoBrat | WTB "The Beast" |
| 16:59.39 | TecnoBrat | there was nothing better than always making the gnome aggro The Beast |
| 17:05.36 | NeoTron | wow |
| 17:05.45 | NeoTron | http://blue.mmo-champion.com/20/16019603150-new-310-frost-wyrm-mount.html *facepalm* |
| 17:05.53 | Lunessa | I may be in the minority, but I always liked fights with a"you go flying" component. |
| 17:06.08 | Bibi | He clearly never saw LOTR. |
| 17:06.12 | Bibi | Big drakes are scary in battle. |
| 17:07.02 | NeoTron | he clearly should go collect the gold for epic flying |
| 17:07.03 | Jamash | this person has been playing long enough to get three gladiator titles and doesn't have enough money for epic flying? |
| 17:07.19 | Jamash | go sell arena ratings, imo |
| 17:07.28 | Lunessa | The Original Poster is apparently unable to farm a few k gold over the course of multiple seasons. |
| 17:08.14 | NeoTron | indeed |
| 17:08.18 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah... priorities and stuff. |
| 17:08.19 | Lunessa | I freaking farmed 5k gold in a single marathon weekend day during BC for my first epic flyer. I never want to see another Nagrand Ogre... |
| 17:08.25 | Lopeppeppy | *gentle shrug* |
| 17:08.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Kirov (n=Kirov@173.10.85.26) |
| 17:08.46 | Lopeppeppy | I *need* to go farm a buncha gold for my epic flyer, I never bothered before, but now that I want it, I'll go get it. |
| 17:08.54 | Lopeppeppy | And drop kick the OP of that thread in the head, for good measure |
| 17:09.09 | Jamash | I don't want to think about doing storm peaks or icecrown with a slow flyer |
| 17:09.15 | NeoTron | Anyone that feels that an epic flyer isn't worth saving for has never had one :P |
| 17:09.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (n=legorol@80-192-28-127.cable.ubr07.sgyl.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 17:09.20 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 17:09.23 | Lopeppeppy | I'm starting to, Jamash, and it sucketh. |
| 17:09.26 | Jamash | ouch |
| 17:09.42 | Lopeppeppy | NeoTron, I don't have a miner/herber farming toon, never really... "needed" one enough to do the farming. |
| 17:10.00 | durcyn | life without epic flying isn't worth living |
| 17:10.04 | Jamash | I don't either and I have two epic flyers and 5k gold just sitting around |
| 17:10.28 | NeoTron | even if you don't farm for one, you likely could easily get one over the course of a year by just saving |
| 17:10.36 | NeoTron | and they have been around for many years now |
| 17:10.45 | TecnoBrat | oh man, so many memories of UBRS |
| 17:10.50 | TecnoBrat | hunters who couldn't kite |
| 17:11.02 | Lopeppeppy | Yup. I just need to focus and start saving, I can have one in a few weeks *max* |
| 17:11.09 | Jamash | my favorite moment from UBRS |
| 17:11.17 | Jamash | is when I kited drak to the beast's room |
| 17:11.25 | TecnoBrat | and then fell down? :P |
| 17:11.45 | Lopeppeppy | Died in the fires that bar the door to the Beast's room! |
| 17:11.47 | Jamash | and Lord Valthalak wiped the raid |
| 17:11.59 | Lopeppeppy | We used to get the rogue to kite him |
| 17:12.08 | Legorol | why on earth would you summon Valthalak before you are done with Drak >.< |
| 17:12.17 | Jamash | Legorol: GOOD QUESTION |
| 17:12.18 | TecnoBrat | good question |
| 17:12.41 | Legorol | i guess if you are confident you can kill Valthalak, you can summon him on the way |
| 17:12.51 | Legorol | makes things a bit quicker |
| 17:12.55 | Legorol | but he was HARD! |
| 17:13.46 | Legorol | What i never really figured out about Valthalak is this: he was hard to do for a group in T1, and he is needed for T0.5. What gives |
| 17:14.28 | Legorol | Speaking of which, of all the content so far, gear progression was best in Classic imo. |
| 17:14.31 | Lunessa | T 0.5 really should have been called something else. |
| 17:14.32 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 17:14.40 | Jamash | Legorol: That was back in the days when casuals weren't allowed to have epics. |
| 17:14.48 | cncfanatics | bah |
| 17:14.51 | cncfanatics | maly 25 cancelled :'( |
| 17:14.53 | Legorol | Raiding was generally a chore and a pain, but the gear was set at the right level at each level. |
| 17:15.29 | Legorol | Jamash: which is a bit of a weird way of looking at it. It's not about the purple colour, it's about gear progression. |
| 17:15.37 | Legorol | For example, why isn't there i213 blue gear in Wrath? |
| 17:15.45 | Jamash | beats me |
| 17:15.47 | alestane | The wife will probably appreciate http://xkcd.com/562/ |
| 17:15.52 | Legorol | 10-man content could've been tuned to drop i213 blues or something |
| 17:16.17 | Jamash | I think the whole color system is kind of silly |
| 17:16.26 | Legorol | well the colour system worked in classic |
| 17:16.39 | Legorol | the problem is that the current end-game design is that everything's purple, just different levels |
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| 17:16.44 | Jamash | yeah |
| 17:16.57 | Legorol | speaking of which, i'm a bit ambivalent about Wrath heroics |
| 17:17.10 | Jamash | ambivalent about what part? |
| 17:17.11 | Legorol | on one hand, it's great that you don't need attunement, and they are set at a better level than TBC heroics |
| 17:17.31 | Legorol | oth, I don't like the fact that people hit 80 and jump into heroics straight. It's impossible to get groups for normal L80 instances. |
| 17:17.41 | Jamash | true enough |
| 17:18.00 | Legorol | However, I always chalk that up to "realm progression". |
| 17:18.17 | Legorol | As the average gear level of the entire realm progresses, the more forgiving groups get to blue/green geared fresh 80s |
| 17:18.55 | Legorol | I wish there was more meaning to L80 blues though |
| 17:19.20 | Legorol | There is simply no point in working on them, by the time you'd get a decent set, you probably cleared Naxx |
| 17:19.38 | Jamash | in heroics, at least, the real deal is the last boss epics |
| 17:19.47 | Gnarfoz | <Lunessa> T 0.5 really should have been called something else. <-- it was always called "Dungeon Set 2" officially ^^ |
| 17:20.08 | Jamash | there is no dungeon set 4, is there |
| 17:20.17 | Jamash | funny, I hadn't noticed that until now |
| 17:20.23 | Legorol | a sign that heroics in TBC were broken: dungeon set 3 dropped from normal instances, dungeon set 4 from heroics, and they were the same level afaik |
| 17:21.27 | Jamash | I used my D3 2-piece bonus for the longest time |
| 17:21.48 | Jamash | 4 sec cooldown reduction on traps |
| 17:21.56 | Legorol | note: UBRS, which used to be a 10+ raid instance, drops blue items |
| 17:22.05 | Lopeppeppy | Hi hi, alestane. |
| 17:22.05 | Legorol | I think Naxx 10 should've been dropping i200 blues |
| 17:22.13 | Jamash | 213 blues at least |
| 17:22.18 | alestane | huggles Lopeppeppy. |
| 17:22.34 | Jamash | there'd be no point in doing naxx 10 if it dropped gear at the same quality as heroics |
| 17:22.37 | Legorol | i think same item level as heroic bosses would've been fine, with a few epics thrown in maybe on Sap, KT, and endbosses of wings |
| 17:22.53 | Legorol | Jamash: so what was the point of doing UBRS back in the day? |
| 17:23.02 | Jamash | Legorol: there were no heroics |
| 17:23.08 | Legorol | You can motivate people just fine for 10-mans if you can spread the loot |
| 17:23.19 | Lopeppeppy | All your loots are belong to me. |
| 17:23.33 | Legorol | Jamash: there were plenty 5-mans with the same level of loot |
| 17:23.52 | Jamash | Legorol: There was *nothing else to do* for non-raiders. |
| 17:23.53 | Legorol | just to get your set, you had to go different places |
| 17:24.11 | Legorol | Jamash: DM, Strat, Scholo? |
| 17:24.24 | Legorol | i'm not saying it's a big selection |
| 17:24.40 | Jamash | Except run UBRS a million times hoping for a quested epic component that would never, ever drop |
| 17:24.59 | Legorol | also, UBRS, a 10-man instance, wasn't really a "raid" instance towards the end |
| 17:25.04 | Legorol | pugs ran it all the time |
| 17:25.19 | *** join/#wowuidev kamdis (i=405f8902@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-06d030889f15afaa) |
| 17:25.21 | Jamash | I never saw a pristine hide, or a chromatic carapace |
| 17:25.25 | Jamash | ever |
| 17:25.33 | Legorol | i got one chromatic carapace :) |
| 17:25.53 | Legorol | anyhoo, that's not the point :) the point I'm trying to say is that i don't agree with the "bigger group gets better loot" design |
| 17:26.30 | Legorol | a bigger group should be attractive for its own sake: different content, greater amount of drops, maybe faster clears (so better loot per hour ratio) |
| 17:26.41 | Jamash | Ghostcrawler recently addressed that, if bigger groups didn't get better loot, almost nobody would do large group content because of the inherent difficulty in wrangling more people. |
| 17:27.07 | Legorol | the loot doesn't have to be better, you can give other tangible benefits |
| 17:27.32 | kluge | why is raid xp so low? |
| 17:27.38 | Lunessa | Yeah. 40-Man raid groups were insane to manage. 25 is just about the limit of most people's attention span and willingness to put up with random crap. |
| 17:27.53 | Legorol | i totally agree that bigger group needs better management |
| 17:27.56 | Lunessa | 'cause raids are not meant to be a leveling item. |
| 17:28.06 | Jamash | kluge: so people don't run around the world in raid groups demolishing mobs as a leveling method |
| 17:28.13 | kluge | cool |
| 17:28.14 | Legorol | (as an aside, 40-mans had their own advantages: you could have people DC, afk or slack, and the group would still work as you were missing a "smaller" component) |
| 17:28.37 | NightHawkTheSane | that wasn't an advantage |
| 17:28.40 | kluge | but then the slackers win drops.. |
| 17:28.44 | kluge | and you wasted your time |
| 17:28.50 | NightHawkTheSane | that was carrying 15-20 fucking slackers along for the ride |
| 17:28.51 | kluge | cuz the stupid hunter wasnt even using its stupid mana |
| 17:29.01 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: it depends on your guild/group. It does have an advantage in certain settings. |
| 17:29.07 | Legorol | slackers are bad, i agree |
| 17:29.18 | Legorol | but random DCs having less of an effect, or emergency afk-s, is a good thing |
| 17:29.38 | Legorol | in an environment where most of the people are doing most of their job most of the time, the larger group size gives larger margin of error |
| 17:29.39 | NightHawkTheSane | *shrug* I've yet to see a DC or emergency afk cause an issue in 25s. |
| 17:29.50 | Jamash | on the other hand the probability of a random dc or afk goes up with the number of players |
| 17:29.58 | NightHawkTheSane | ^^ |
| 17:30.01 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: then you haven't had your MT in a 25-man having to afk for 30 mins :) |
| 17:30.01 | Lunessa | Legorol: Managing - directly, more than about 5 people is a pain and often is inefficient. This is why squad sizes are about 3-6 people in many military organizations. Managing 25 people makes me want to punch babies. |
| 17:30.10 | NightHawkTheSane | Jamash: because people figure, there's 20+ other suckers to carry them |
| 17:30.17 | NightHawkTheSane | Legorol: no, our MT isn |
| 17:30.21 | NightHawkTheSane | isn't a moron who does things like that |
| 17:30.29 | Legorol | it's not a question of moronity |
| 17:30.36 | Legorol | it's a question of emergency which can and will happen |
| 17:30.45 | NightHawkTheSane | we also have 2-3 tanks fully capable of main tanking, so even if he did, we'd just move on |
| 17:31.05 | Legorol | a typical 25-man setup has just the right number of tanks for the content |
| 17:31.10 | Lunessa | The AddOn Dev Policy got un-sticked. |
| 17:31.18 | Legorol | if one tank out of the 2 needed for the fight is afk, you are screwed |
| 17:31.27 | NightHawkTheSane | There's no such thing as a typical 25 man setup, though. :P |
| 17:31.39 | Legorol | sure there is: 3 tanks, 6 healers, 16 dps |
| 17:31.41 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, sure there is! |
| 17:31.43 | NightHawkTheSane | it's really just a theory of "this is kind of what we expect" |
| 17:31.55 | Jamash | yay zoot responded to me |
| 17:31.56 | NightHawkTheSane | most groups i'm sure run with their own quirky group makeups |
| 17:31.59 | Lopeppeppy | Everyone has their own "typical" setup, ti's awesome. |
| 17:32.08 | Lopeppeppy | Jamash, Zoot is made of awesome. |
| 17:32.20 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: yeah, per raid group, sure, but not across multiple groups, etc. :P |
| 17:32.34 | Legorol | All right, let me try and put it like this: |
| 17:32.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Ithato (n=Shane@64-199-29-162.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 17:32.57 | Jamash | I need my authenticator back so's I can test my addon |
| 17:33.00 | Legorol | in an environment of semi-casual players, let's say you have no mandatory raid signups, you get a random group of 25 together |
| 17:33.06 | Legorol | off you go, but someone has to afk |
| 17:33.14 | Legorol | it's a bigger hit than if the same happened in a 40-man |
| 17:33.18 | Legorol | we coudl easily keep going |
| 17:33.27 | NightHawkTheSane | only marginally |
| 17:33.51 | Legorol | in MC, people could go and take a bio when they wanted to and it didn't cause problems |
| 17:34.03 | Legorol | (i'm not talking of slackers here: i'm just talking of not having to schedule bio breaks) |
| 17:34.18 | Legorol | bios naturally ended up staggered |
| 17:34.24 | nevcairiel | You can just afk during trash now too |
| 17:34.25 | Legorol | in Naxx 25, if 2-3 people go on a bio at the same time, you are seriously hit |
| 17:34.26 | Jamash | my guild leader fell asleep on Lucifron once and aggroed the imp cave |
| 17:34.29 | NightHawkTheSane | the thing is, a lot of the 40 man content was designed around actually having 40 people. so really, your MTs and healers didn't have any more freedom to randomly afk on bosses than they do now |
| 17:34.43 | NightHawkTheSane | Legorol: hardly |
| 17:34.44 | Lopeppeppy | Healers and tanks NEVER get to have the freedom to pee. |
| 17:34.57 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: the same applies to 25-man content too though |
| 17:35.21 | Legorol | Lopeppeppy: which is why all good tanks have ordered their raid diapers :) |
| 17:35.51 | NightHawkTheSane | kind of, yeah, you're just carrying less lazy dps around with you |
| 17:36.04 | Legorol | ok, let's scale it down to the other end: |
| 17:36.07 | Legorol | 1 person afk-s out of 10 |
| 17:36.10 | Legorol | 1 person afk-s out of 5 |
| 17:36.15 | Legorol | consider the impact |
| 17:36.28 | Legorol | and i don't think that the probability of random afk scales with number of people |
| 17:36.30 | NightHawkTheSane | *shrug* if it's not a tank or healer, there is none |
| 17:36.33 | Legorol | however, the impact gets smaller |
| 17:36.38 | kamdis | Unless you're talking boss fights (and even some of those aren't a problem) my experience has been 25s are no more susceptible to the whims of DCs and AFKs than 40s were. |
| 17:36.44 | kamdis | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:37.04 | kamdis | unless someone DCs on Thaddius like I did on Friday. :( |
| 17:37.17 | Jamash | Legorol: The probability of one particular person afking is the same, but the probability of *someone* afk/disconnecting is higher |
| 17:37.17 | nevcairiel | Well the 25s right now |
| 17:37.21 | nevcairiel | Did you play in BC? |
| 17:37.31 | NightHawkTheSane | kamdis: percentage-wise, yeah,they're not really |
| 17:37.33 | Legorol | Jamash: i understand that of course :) |
| 17:37.52 | kluge | the probability is higher and the impact is less, doesnt that sort of balance |
| 17:37.55 | kamdis | Point taken, nev |
| 17:38.02 | NightHawkTheSane | its just when you look at the actual numbers, it's less frustrating to see 3-5 slackass afkers in 25s than ~10 in 40s |
| 17:38.06 | Legorol | kluge: my argument is that they don't exactly balance |
| 17:38.16 | Lopeppeppy | In my raid, back in the day, you had to announce your AFK and put yourself on follow to your class/role leader. |
| 17:38.31 | kamdis | *salutes peppy* |
| 17:38.35 | kamdis | :-P |
| 17:38.41 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: interesting, that must be a psychological thing |
| 17:38.45 | Lopeppeppy | Ya-hi, Kamdis! *pounce huggle* |
| 17:38.51 | Lunessa | Frankly, if I have someone who AFKs or D/Cs a lot I'm going to stop inviting them until they get that shit under control. |
| 17:38.55 | Legorol | i wsa less bothered by the 10 out of 40 than by the 4 out of 25 |
| 17:39.11 | Legorol | oops numbers are wrong |
| 17:39.22 | kluge | i know this 1 dk tank who discs like every hour or so for like 5 minutes |
| 17:39.22 | Legorol | it'd be 8 out of 40 vs. 5 out of 25 |
| 17:39.24 | kluge | its hilarious |
| 17:39.27 | kluge | everyone knwos to expect it |
| 17:39.31 | kluge | hes actually good player |
| 17:39.33 | kluge | and very fun |
| 17:39.41 | Jamash | kluge: buy a better internet imo |
| 17:39.42 | kluge | so nobody cares we just wipe and duel till he gets back |
| 17:39.57 | kluge | speaking of, is my wifi latency of 200-300 gonna screw me or is that workable? |
| 17:40.00 | kluge | cuz i can get cable |
| 17:40.04 | Legorol | mind you all the things i said are to favour casual guilds |
| 17:40.06 | Lunessa | alestane: are you also " Akhasiana"? |
| 17:40.13 | Legorol | i'm in a semi-hardcore guild atm, where unannounced afk is strictly nono |
| 17:40.19 | alestane | That would be me. The forum c=toon swap bug bit me again. |
| 17:40.31 | Legorol | you get poked to put your flask on for trash (which is fair enough imo, but there's plenty QQ about it in guild) |
| 17:40.35 | alestane | But you can tell who it is from the signature, usually. |
| 17:40.46 | Jamash | I don't think I've ever used a flask |
| 17:40.56 | krimpsok | kluge: Cable is better then wifi but wifi isn't too shabby only bit flaky at times ;) |
| 17:40.59 | Lunessa | Yeah, and the reference to your own code. And the same server. But it confused me for a sec. |
| 17:41.06 | kluge | ok krimps ty :) |
| 17:41.18 | Lunessa | kluge: You can play at 200-300ms latency just fine. |
| 17:41.25 | Legorol | Jamash: and for anything but 3D, you probably don't need it |
| 17:41.32 | NeoTron | the only reason I truly mind people disconnecting is Immortal |
| 17:41.34 | Lopeppeppy | alestane, seriously, talk to our fearless leader about those forum glitches if you haven't... |
| 17:41.34 | alestane | Lunessa: That's why they want MVPs to avoid doing that. My toon selection stayed stable just long enough for me to get complacent. |
| 17:41.39 | Legorol | however, the aim for us is to improve performance and clear faster, for which flasks are helpful |
| 17:41.42 | NeoTron | when Immortal is out of the way in a week or two, I won't mind |
| 17:41.51 | Jamash | Legorol: Our guild is super casual and got blocked by a gargoyle in naxx10 |
| 17:41.53 | NeoTron | that damn achievement is horrible for guild and individual morale |
| 17:42.05 | Jamash | not a boss, a trash gargoyle |
| 17:42.10 | Legorol | Jamash: then you need better gear probably |
| 17:42.12 | NeoTron | Jamash: my guild did once too... until we realized we were doing 25-man naxx by mistake |
| 17:42.14 | Legorol | or better players :) |
| 17:42.18 | Legorol | flasks won't help you on that |
| 17:42.39 | Jamash | Legorol: I would have better gear if I ever won a roll |
| 17:42.45 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: heh, we made that mistake once. couldn't figure out for the life of us why everything was doing so much damage :P |
| 17:42.53 | Legorol | Jamash: how small/big/friendly is your guild? |
| 17:43.12 | Legorol | If it's a small, tight-knit community (which is possible even for a casual guild :)), then people should be passing gear to those that need it |
| 17:43.13 | Jamash | Legorol: Small enough that it's a bit of a struggle to field 10 people for naxx |
| 17:43.49 | Jamash | We used to be bigger but a guy left and took half the guild with him -.- |
| 17:44.01 | Legorol | let me guess, that was the more hardcore half |
| 17:44.04 | Jamash | yes |
| 17:44.23 | NeoTron | which so often happens on all levels |
| 17:44.26 | Jamash | they supposedly left because of "drama" but the only people causing drama were... the people who left |
| 17:44.49 | Legorol | and the nature of the drama was: "we don't want to play with and/or carry slackers" |
| 17:44.51 | Lunessa | Ooo... I got Calamity's Grasp from KT on Saturday. <3 |
| 17:44.52 | Jamash | I personally suspect that the whole thing was engineered by the guy who left |
| 17:44.55 | NeoTron | I was in a top3 guild on my old server (muru dead, but not farmed before the nerf). not a bad guild - top <300ish US I think |
| 17:44.56 | Legorol | been there, done that, seen it on so many levels so many times |
| 17:45.06 | NeoTron | and we did that split - my half being the better half |
| 17:45.16 | NeoTron | and we're a better guild for it |
| 17:45.44 | kluge | 1 time i joined a hardcore splinter |
| 17:45.47 | Jamash | NeoTron: So you're saying more hardcore players are better than less hardcore players? |
| 17:45.49 | kluge | but then they fell apart so fast |
| 17:45.50 | NeoTron | Shedding people is sometimes inevitable but old leadership setups don't always allow for it |
| 17:45.51 | Lopeppeppy | A Team versus B Team destroyed my last raiding group, it got pretty evil. |
| 17:45.55 | kluge | and i had to find areal guild |
| 17:46.02 | *** part/#wowuidev Ithato (n=Shane@64-199-29-162.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 17:46.03 | NeoTron | Jamash: I'm saying better players are better players |
| 17:46.09 | durcyn | skill and play time have nothing to do with each other, they're two axes on the same chart |
| 17:46.11 | Legorol | Jamash: that really depends on which of the 100 million definitions of "hardcore" yo uuse :) |
| 17:46.27 | durcyn | there are good 'casual' and terrible 'hardcore' players |
| 17:46.35 | NeoTron | we're rather casual from a raiding schedule point of view, but dead serious about raiding |
| 17:46.41 | Lunessa | LOL - http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16019533487&sid=1 - "Prize will be me eating a cookie on your behalf. " |
| 17:46.55 | Legorol | NeoTron: in my experience, that's incresingly common, and i think a very good way to play the game |
| 17:47.01 | NeoTron | 12 hour weekly 25-man schedule (from 16 in BC) |
| 17:47.03 | Legorol | reduce number of raid days/raid hours, but really focus when you do raid |
| 17:47.27 | Legorol | that's my favoured method of play |
| 17:47.29 | Jamash | Our problem is our tanks have difficult schedules |
| 17:47.29 | NeoTron | experience from BC put the 4th day (Sunday) as usually being scrub day. didn't accomplish a whole lot |
| 17:47.37 | Legorol | as opposed to 7 days of dicking about |
| 17:47.41 | Jamash | due to work, school or other activities |
| 17:47.48 | NeoTron | it broke up the "spec for pvp/pve dps between raids" too |
| 17:48.18 | Legorol | Jamash: imo if you are going to have just a few raid days (2 or 3), you need the vast majority to be able to make most of those raids |
| 17:48.22 | NeoTron | I suspect if we get to a point where we're really close to accomplishing something we might make another raid night happen. maybe |
| 17:48.44 | NeoTron | but with the current raiding, we raid once per week maybe once + an hour or less |
| 17:48.49 | Jamash | Legorol: I know, we clearly need 1 more reliable tank |
| 17:48.53 | Legorol | things get very hard when you have a different tank each day |
| 17:49.02 | NeoTron | Immortal is so draining we often end after 3 hours of the clear to give people a brake |
| 17:49.13 | Jamash | Our BC main tank burned out and has gone DPS |
| 17:49.30 | kluge | what about vent |
| 17:49.33 | NeoTron | our BC main tank sucked, quit WoW, returned and isn't 80 yet :P |
| 17:49.34 | kluge | is it really as necessary as ppl say? |
| 17:49.41 | kluge | can u raid pro without vent? |
| 17:49.51 | NeoTron | kluge: yes but I think it's better with |
| 17:49.56 | Jamash | Vent is not necessary but can make it easier to coordinate |
| 17:50.15 | Lopeppeppy | kluge, most people would say "no" to that. |
| 17:50.32 | Jamash | it's faster to talk than type during combat |
| 17:50.41 | NeoTron | Pretty sure Kungen always did all raid direction via /rw |
| 17:50.42 | kluge | i can type like four words during a 2 second cast |
| 17:50.46 | kluge | so thats not bad |
| 17:50.49 | NeoTron | while MTing |
| 17:50.50 | Lopeppeppy | As long as there's a little bit of com discipline, Vent is better. |
| 17:50.56 | kluge | cool |
| 17:51.27 | NeoTron | let's just say that when I have no microphone, raid leading is a pain |
| 17:51.31 | Lopeppeppy | I do not want people typing and IMing each other or whispering each other during raid... If you can't say it on open Vent, then it's not necessary and you're not concentrating. If one has time to play Bejeweled, then it's time to go to the next instance up. |
| 17:51.35 | NeoTron | and I let others do the main chunk of it |
| 17:51.49 | Lunessa | I'm a lousy typist, and not fast. It's hard for me to type during combat as a raid leader, but I can press a single button and say "Off-tank, pick up that Add, and lets get a b-rez on player Y" and still keep doing my job. Thanks Ventrilo! |
| 17:51.50 | NeoTron | indeed |
| 17:51.58 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: do you really think that doesn't happen regardless? |
| 17:52.09 | Jamash | NeoTron: set up ventrilo text to speech macros for everything you need to say :D |
| 17:52.16 | NeoTron | I remember back in BWL, raiding on my druid. was asking for assignments for one of the drake fights and the druid leader said nothing (this is in a druid chat channel) |
| 17:52.29 | NeoTron | so I take it upon me to set it up and THEN she says something about HER being the leader |
| 17:52.34 | kluge | actually lunessa by your logic macros are vastly superior |
| 17:52.42 | NeoTron | but not until accidently typing one of her love notes to the raid leader rogue in druid chat first... |
| 17:52.43 | kluge | make a macro that does that |
| 17:52.50 | kluge | people are gonna read t faster than u can say it |
| 17:52.54 | kluge | and it takes less effort |
| 17:53.03 | Lunessa | kluge: Macros can't adjust for dynamic conditions. |
| 17:53.07 | NeoTron | kluge: so you'll have a macro for every occasion in a dynamic raid? |
| 17:53.11 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: nice. |
| 17:53.16 | alestane | If you can count an needing to say the same thing every time, yes.. |
| 17:53.26 | kluge | no but u can have set macros for any instance you might enter and equip them. |
| 17:53.30 | kluge | maybe a bit of effort. |
| 17:53.50 | Jamash | saying Battlerez! is less informative than saying Battlerez player X! |
| 17:53.55 | kluge | also i can type and read faster than i can talk or listen myself.. i know ther are lots of other ppl like that |
| 17:54.02 | Lunessa | I have two /rw macros for raid leading. The first is the vent info. The second is "GET OUT OF THE DAMNED CLOUDS" |
| 17:54.12 | kluge | haha nice lunessa |
| 17:54.31 | Shirik | I got a new email |
| 17:54.51 | Shirik | "Warning: Siren and CODE RED TEST tomorrow 3/21/09" |
| 17:54.54 | NightHawkTheSane | vent is nice because you can listen parallel to doing things in game, it's harder to read chat while doing other things. |
| 17:55.01 | durcyn | what's a code red Shirik |
| 17:55.05 | NightHawkTheSane | but really, beyond that, its a convenience.. |
| 17:55.09 | Lunessa | And every time I'm not the raid leader, I can still say alerts in vent that aren't getting spammed away by someone's DBM spamming the damned chat frame. |
| 17:55.12 | Shirik | Now I'm hoping that's a typo and was supposed to be 31 and not that it was supposed to be sent two weeks ago |
| 17:55.17 | Jamash | Shirik: do you work on a nuclear military vessel? |
| 17:55.21 | Shirik | No, campus emergency |
| 17:55.26 | NeoTron | kluge: ask yourself this - do you ever find yourself using a phone when the person on the other end can be texted or emailed instead/ |
| 17:55.28 | Gnarfoz | NeoTron: any ETA on making MagicDKP_Client localizable through wowace localization? ^^ |
| 17:55.29 | NeoTron | kluge: if so, why ? |
| 17:55.44 | kluge | neotron, well because my phone doesnt have a keyboard. |
| 17:55.45 | Shirik | lockdown, tornado, whatever |
| 17:55.53 | NeoTron | Gnarfoz: err. Soon? :) I guess with it being more used I should really do that. |
| 17:55.55 | NightHawkTheSane | kluge: get a better phone, imo ;) |
| 17:55.59 | NeoTron | I'll see if I can set it up tonight |
| 17:56.02 | kluge | right |
| 17:56.05 | kluge | then i would use the keyboard. |
| 17:56.10 | kluge | i totally agree |
| 17:56.12 | Jamash | vent is different from phone |
| 17:56.14 | Gnarfoz | NeoTron: that'd be awesome <3 |
| 17:56.37 | NeoTron | I was also thinking about separating UI localization and config localization for MagicDKP |
| 17:56.45 | NeoTron | the UI is more important but right now it's all one big mess |
| 17:56.48 | kluge | its basically like a phone conf is it not? ive used the built in wow audio chat but never bothered with vent since i hated the audio so much. |
| 17:58.05 | NightHawkTheSane | I find vent quality to be superior to most phone lines. |
| 17:58.17 | Jamash | Really? Built in chat audio quality is crap compared to vent |
| 17:58.35 | NightHawkTheSane | but that also depends on the equipment people use. |
| 17:58.53 | kluge | i will test it at least then. my guild has vent and i am considering leaving ifit becomes primary method of communication. |
| 17:59.04 | Jamash | blizzard audio chat sounds like the speaker at a drive-through |
| 17:59.09 | kluge | but i will be hard pressed to find a guild of good players that doesnt use vent |
| 17:59.23 | kluge | it does yah |
| 17:59.41 | krimpsok | *kgggh* Get the adds and fetch me a coke! *kgghz* |
| 18:00.29 | NeoTron | kluge: why the adversion to vent ? |
| 18:00.30 | Lopeppeppy | Most raid groups only require the leaders to speak, kluge. Everyone else has to hear, but usually it's better NOT to speak a lot. |
| 18:00.51 | Lopeppeppy | NeoTron, many players are adverse to Vent. We like to keep our real selves away from the pervs, sickos and jerks that play WoW. :) |
| 18:01.26 | NeoTron | but as you said, most people don't have to and usually shouldn't talk on vent |
| 18:01.29 | Lopeppeppy | It also stresses some marginal systems, to run Vent and wow at the same time. |
| 18:01.29 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: .. i try to avoid being in vent with those people |
| 18:01.29 | Shirik | Actually |
| 18:01.31 | Shirik | My raid team |
| 18:01.37 | Shirik | You are not allowed to talk on vent |
| 18:01.42 | NightHawkTheSane | i actually -like- talking to most of my raid group/guild on vent. they're generally pretty cool people |
| 18:01.42 | Lopeppeppy | Shirik, I approve. |
| 18:01.45 | Shirik | only the officers are allowed to talk unless you are directly addressed |
| 18:01.54 | Lopeppeppy | I love the "mute" feature of Ventrilo, wish more raid groups used it. |
| 18:01.56 | kluge | you could say im antisocial. |
| 18:02.03 | kluge | or just i prefer text. |
| 18:02.08 | Shirik | It eliminates the whole "wtf just happened" spam when something bad happens |
| 18:02.22 | krimpsok | I just sit my lazy bum in an Vent channel and listen :P |
| 18:02.33 | Lopeppeppy | a lot of female players absolutely hate Ventrilo, they don't want it known they are female. Or vice versa, guys playing female toons can be embarassed to admit it's a guy behind the character. |
| 18:02.43 | Jamash | our guild vent is for talking about food, and occasionally raiding |
| 18:02.56 | Jamash | oh, and arenas |
| 18:03.06 | Lopeppeppy | Stunned the heck out of my raid group when i was made an officer and spoke on Vent for the first time.... OMG, it's a GURL! |
| 18:03.08 | NeoTron | what I really hated until about 1 week ago was people talking when I do loot |
| 18:03.14 | Shirik | Lopeppeppy :P |
| 18:03.18 | NeoTron | now with MagicDKP bidding I click a button, wait 30s and give the item out |
| 18:03.21 | NeoTron | no discussion needed |
| 18:03.24 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: heh, interestingly a couple female guildies said -they- dont like when other females refuse to talk on vent, because it makes it seem like they have something to hide |
| 18:03.36 | Jamash | our guild is like half women |
| 18:03.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphen (n=gryphon@c-67-183-90-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 18:03.42 | NeoTron | NightHawkTheSane: like... that they aren't female! |
| 18:03.52 | Jamash | well, a bunch of them left with the hardcorez |
| 18:03.55 | NightHawkTheSane | but, my GL and all the guild officers are all female, so >.> |
| 18:04.05 | kluge | yah, thats one lame thing about vent |
| 18:04.11 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: that would be the implication, yes. :P |
| 18:04.15 | NeoTron | I pretty much require enough knowlede about my players to know their gender at least. general age too |
| 18:04.18 | kluge | guys trying to act cool on wow cuz they heard a female. |
| 18:04.31 | NeoTron | and we typically want a vent interview before accepting them into the guild |
| 18:04.36 | NightHawkTheSane | yeah, we also dont let anyone under ~20 on our vent :P |
| 18:04.39 | kluge | i like to keep my wow pure. |
| 18:04.43 | Shirik | Does anyone know if there's an "easy" way to turn off eqdkp? |
| 18:04.47 | kluge | if a player can play, why do i care how old they are? |
| 18:04.52 | Jamash | Shirik: uninstall it? |
| 18:04.54 | Shirik | no |
| 18:04.54 | kluge | if they cant, again, why carE? |
| 18:04.57 | NeoTron | NightHawkTheSane: which saves you from a lot of the *droolfemale* stuff |
| 18:05.17 | Shirik | I want to lock it as I'm about to mess with the database and don't want things to break in case an officer gets the great idea of adding a raid while I'm doing things |
| 18:05.21 | NeoTron | kluge: age matters. a lot. |
| 18:05.24 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: indeed, of course, as i said, all of my guild leadership is female. they.. don't really take kindly to that childishness ;) |
| 18:05.52 | NeoTron | basically younger players typically cause more problems, are more prone to emotional outbursts and are more reliable (as a generalization based on 3+ years of raid leading) |
| 18:05.57 | kluge | neotron, why not judge a person based on their reliability and skill then |
| 18:06.01 | kluge | rather than their demographic |
| 18:06.06 | kluge | which is exactly why i hate vent |
| 18:06.10 | Shirik | :( |
| 18:06.12 | NeoTron | the rule rarely fails |
| 18:06.12 | kluge | cuz people are prejudiced against age, gender, etc. |
| 18:06.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper (n=Spellsha@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-053.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 18:06.18 | Shirik | mysql> DESCRIBE eqdkp_ <tab><tab> |
| 18:06.19 | Shirik | Display all 203 possibilities? (y or n) |
| 18:06.20 | kluge | prejudice ftw |
| 18:06.27 | Shirik | 203 tables, seriously? |
| 18:06.31 | NeoTron | if you're under 20 you better impress us A LOT in the app |
| 18:06.43 | NeoTron | most of the time people under 20 fail the app due to failing completely to put any time into it |
| 18:06.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (n=kalroth@2506ds1-hj.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 18:06.54 | kluge | so why ask their age |
| 18:06.58 | kluge | just judge based on time put into it. |
| 18:06.59 | Jamash | I'd never apply to a guild that requires applications |
| 18:07.00 | NeoTron | Shirik: doesn't that include eqdkp_users.some_column too? |
| 18:07.05 | Shirik | oh maybe |
| 18:07.14 | kluge | see again, your making yuor decisions based on prejudice.. which is exactly why i want to avoid vent |
| 18:07.20 | kluge | because i prefer to be judged on merit |
| 18:07.24 | NeoTron | kluge: you don't understand. Age is often a very good indicator whether a player will be a good raider |
| 18:07.25 | kluge | or the content of my character |
| 18:07.26 | kluge | as it were |
| 18:07.27 | Shirik | kluge: Then prove yourself |
| 18:07.30 | NeoTron | kluge: age is a merit in by itself |
| 18:07.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Tinyboom_ (n=nahh@206.84-49-89.nextgentel.com) |
| 18:07.38 | Jamash | NeoTron: wtf |
| 18:07.42 | kluge | neotron, until they get arthritis?? |
| 18:07.45 | Shirik | We don't have an age restriction directly, however it has been shown that the very poor apps tend to come from younger people |
| 18:08.01 | kluge | kids are way faster and more focused on most games, the same can be true of wow. |
| 18:08.01 | Shirik | Admittedly, that's generally on the order of 13 |
| 18:08.18 | kluge | ... right, so skip asking their age and just reject poor apps.. |
| 18:08.21 | Jamash | one of our best players is 16 |
| 18:08.32 | kluge | likely. |
| 18:08.34 | Shirik | We don't ask age, kluge, but we used to |
| 18:08.34 | Lunessa | So, I'm looking back over the vent conversation and it occurs to me... you didn't ask to learn the benefits so much as to say why you don't like it. /facepalm |
| 18:09.16 | NeoTron | examples of things we've seen A LOT more in younger members: unannounced unattendance, quitting the guild without notice or even notification, loot drama, failure to resolve broken hardware in a timely fashion (due to lacking cash), random unattendance due to school, mom, being grounded etc |
| 18:09.28 | Shirik | God, why is eqdkp the "standard" |
| 18:09.29 | Shirik | seriously |
| 18:09.35 | Shirik | this database is crap |
| 18:09.40 | nevcairiel | because its the only thing around |
| 18:09.42 | kluge | good for you shirik. you just dont need to. reliability matters, but an adult can as easily have an interruptive wife as a nagging mother. |
| 18:09.59 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: because no one's done anything better. |
| 18:10.05 | Shirik | kluge: We have quite a few interruptive wives ;) |
| 18:10.11 | Shirik | Incuding our raid leader |
| 18:10.14 | Shirik | "AFK diaper" |
| 18:10.17 | kluge | neotron, so your prejudiced against young people. thats your choice you will miss out on some of the better players. |
| 18:10.18 | Shirik | that's his nickname |
| 18:10.19 | kluge | hehe |
| 18:10.21 | kluge | nice |
| 18:10.25 | NeoTron | Also we find it much more likely to have stubborn "I know best" players amongst younger people so they are often less interested in listening to feedback or suggestions |
| 18:10.33 | Shirik | But seriously look at this |
| 18:10.43 | Shirik | We have a table eqdkp_raid_attendees which links raids to their attendees |
| 18:10.52 | kluge | but yah, really, neotron is just proving my point... which is that if i can judge a person by their relative merits in a game, why worry to try to jdge them by their demographic. |
| 18:10.52 | NeoTron | this is not a hard rule but it's been consistent enough for us. almost every time we accept a younger player as a recruit it proves to be a bad choice a few months down the road |
| 18:10.53 | Shirik | One would think "ok it's a table with two columns, raid ID and member ID" |
| 18:10.59 | Shirik | No, it's raid ID and member NAME |
| 18:11.01 | Shirik | WHY |
| 18:11.13 | NeoTron | Shirik: because the authors are stupid.. and I agree fully |
| 18:11.13 | Shirik | That's by far the biggest table in the entire database, and we're wasting a ton of space on it |
| 18:11.34 | NeoTron | Shirik: not to mention that changing someone's name requires changing like 3-4 tables |
| 18:11.41 | Shirik | Yeah that's what I'm trying to do right now |
| 18:11.46 | kluge | lunessa the benefits of vent are obvious, and everybody tells me them, most days. |
| 18:11.49 | Shirik | And I'm quickly realizing how much of a pain this is going to be |
| 18:11.49 | NeoTron | you also ahve the eqdkp_items that has a item_buyer or something that's also a string |
| 18:11.49 | Jamash | people use a relational database to track dkp? |
| 18:11.54 | Lunessa | Age, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, religious beliefs and personal habits all matter in a social organization. To pretend they don't is fallacy. That does not mean that you can't be a good player and fit in with a raid group - and that discrimination based on those things won't have other, unhappy consequences. But don't forget - those things matter to people. |
| 18:12.02 | kluge | so i mostly wondered if anybody here could mention any ones i hadnt heard. |
| 18:12.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@host217-43-240-104.range217-43.btcentralplus.com) |
| 18:12.16 | kluge | what i dont hear though is anything negative about vent.. people that dont use it are mostly shy |
| 18:12.26 | kluge | so they dont speak up for themselves against it |
| 18:12.27 | Jamash | kluge: it makes your teeth shinier and lowers your golf score by 3 |
| 18:12.46 | kluge | thats just not true of me. i just dont feel like getting judged for my canadian accent, lets say. |
| 18:12.48 | NightHawkTheSane | Jamash: it's true! i made par thanks to Vent! |
| 18:12.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 18:12.58 | kluge | or judging anyone else for theirs |
| 18:13.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage- (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 18:13.03 | kluge | which everyone does naturally. |
| 18:13.11 | NeoTron | we actually have a few young people in our guild now. decent players but: one of them is having hardware issues and have been absent for 2 weeks. another had hardware issues and were absent for perhaps 3 weeks. a third one was gone fo over a month due to broken computer and insufficient funds to buy a new one |
| 18:13.21 | Jamash | we have an aussie in our guild |
| 18:13.22 | NightHawkTheSane | so.. you're either playing with idiots, or can't take some friendly ribbing? |
| 18:13.29 | krimpsok | Kluge: That's why I love our Dutch vent channel since we all got a dutch accent :P |
| 18:13.31 | Jamash | we make fun of him for being crazy, not for being australian |
| 18:13.50 | Kirov | There are plenty of people in my guild who use vent, but don't say a damned word. |
| 18:13.54 | p3lim | is UIParent_ManageFramePositions() a hidden function? |
| 18:13.56 | NeoTron | what Lunessa said is very true. it does matter. :) |
| 18:13.58 | p3lim | aka coded in C |
| 18:14.01 | kluge | NightHawkTheSane, for one, i am playing with idiots, of which i am one. sorry. ive been playing like 6 months and i have like 10 toons and none are 80. |
| 18:14.03 | Kirov | Me included, though that's mainly a factor of me not giving a shit. |
| 18:14.13 | Jamash | p3lim: grep the blizzard code |
| 18:14.18 | NightHawkTheSane | how are those two facts related? |
| 18:14.36 | p3lim | dont know how |
| 18:14.49 | Jamash | kluge: wait, if you're not 80 what do you need vent for? |
| 18:14.50 | Lunessa | Kirov: Your silent disapproval doesn't need Vent to be expressed. |
| 18:15.15 | kluge | jamash, i want to be ready and know what i want when i get to level 80 |
| 18:15.27 | kluge | my main priest is 75 now |
| 18:15.36 | Kirov | Lunessa - No, but I do need it to know the dps assignments for Thaddius. |
| 18:15.50 | kluge | so one reason im concerned with whether vent is necessary or not is because i will be choosing an endgame guild soon |
| 18:16.00 | Lunessa | Kirov: *nod* I was just making a snarky joke, my friend. |
| 18:16.09 | kluge | mine is good for now but i dont know if it has the focus requierd. |
| 18:16.30 | Kirov | Lunessa - and I honestly can't think of another reason I need vent >.< |
| 18:16.31 | Kirov | heh |
| 18:16.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Pneumatus (n=WiN@unaffiliated/pneumatus) |
| 18:17.03 | NeoTron | kluge: if you want to choose an end game guild that actually raids, it is much more likely that use of vent, passively at least, is required |
| 18:17.07 | kluge | i expect i would find it distracting, also id be less likely to understand what people said than what they type |
| 18:17.07 | Jamash | p3lim: I don't know about yours, but my text editor has a "search in directory" function |
| 18:17.09 | kamdis | Hi Cairenn :) |
| 18:17.17 | Cairenn | hi kamdis :) |
| 18:17.22 | NeoTron | a lot of end game guilds have HORRIBLE vent |
| 18:17.23 | kluge | yah neotron u probably are right there. |
| 18:17.25 | p3lim | dont think so |
| 18:17.33 | Lunessa | Kirov: I like it for the social aspect as well as the connivence since I'm a terrible typist/keyboard turner/and use 1 through = as keybinds. :P |
| 18:17.33 | kluge | theres quality difference?? |
| 18:17.36 | NeoTron | a good end game guild has a very strict and organized vent (during boss fights at least) |
| 18:17.40 | kluge | oh i see |
| 18:17.45 | kluge | organization. sounds good. |
| 18:18.01 | NightHawkTheSane | you actually can adjust the vent quality |
| 18:18.04 | NeoTron | horrible - people bullshitting and talking so much the raid leaders can't actually lead using it |
| 18:18.17 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlThePagan (n=karl@lanip-170-65.go180.net) |
| 18:18.23 | NeoTron | I had that issue in the past and basically made the act of me talking mute everyone else |
| 18:18.25 | NightHawkTheSane | but i suspect most people just leave it at whatever default the host they use set it as |
| 18:18.31 | kamdis | *rolleyes* NeoTron. One can have a fun Vent and still be a good raiding guild. |
| 18:18.51 | Jamash | p3lim: do you know how to use the "find" command line program? |
| 18:18.57 | Kirov | kluge - it comes down to this. Your raid leader is probably _doing_ something while you're in a fight. If they stop to type something out like "hey ___, stop being an idiot and move away from that thing that's going to kill you in two seconds" ... well, that person is dead. |
| 18:19.01 | NeoTron | kamdis: our vent is fun but when we fight a boss (well onces that are hard) vent is quiet unless something related to the encounter is needed to be said |
| 18:19.10 | Kirov | kluge - if they yell in vent "____ MOVE!" |
| 18:19.14 | Kirov | they live |
| 18:19.24 | Shirik | amusingly Kirov |
| 18:19.25 | kluge | so because if wifi, prejudice, distraction, typing and reading is faster.... in your situation kirov, |
| 18:19.27 | p3lim | Jamash: nope |
| 18:19.31 | kamdis | I guess I just think that should be obvious to anyone in a "good" raiding guild. |
| 18:19.32 | kluge | the raid leader should simply have warned them ahead of time |
| 18:19.37 | kluge | that way their yelling wouldnt be reactive |
| 18:19.39 | NeoTron | heck we have such interesting discussions as 'three in the stinker' and 'chunky surprise'... |
| 18:19.39 | Shirik | I'm lead heal, and type during raids |
| 18:19.45 | kluge | and the person woldnt be taking damage the whole time theyre yelling |
| 18:19.46 | Shirik | Fortunately, I have greater heal |
| 18:19.48 | NightHawkTheSane | Kirov: eh, honestly, if its something that requires that kind of urgency, vent lag will take too long anyway :P |
| 18:19.50 | Shirik | which gives me a nice 3 seconds :) |
| 18:19.59 | kamdis | Such as not having to have some sort of policy about it. |
| 18:20.06 | Shirik | I've gotten pretty good at typing while healing |
| 18:20.09 | kamdis | maybe that's too much assumption on my part. |
| 18:20.16 | kluge | right, shirik, thats what i was saynig earlier.. |
| 18:20.26 | kluge | i can type a solid 4 words during a 2.44 secont cast |
| 18:20.27 | selckin | Shirik: i used todo that, but then they added haste |
| 18:20.27 | kamdis | But I'm in a guild that's half Canadians, so we're all very polite. :P |
| 18:20.29 | NeoTron | Shirik: except in fights where you can't stand for 3 seconds necessarily |
| 18:20.31 | Shirik | I don't use haste |
| 18:20.35 | kluge | "get back player name" |
| 18:20.36 | NeoTron | so if you need to move you might lose what you typted |
| 18:20.41 | Shirik | Name that fight please, NeoTron |
| 18:20.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 18:20.52 | kluge | that goddamn boss at nexxus |
| 18:20.57 | kluge | keristraza |
| 18:21.00 | Kirov | I used to play a hunter, now a mage. Click casting + typing isn't terrible |
| 18:21.05 | Shirik | I'm referring to raids |
| 18:21.07 | NeoTron | oh I don't know. Kel'thuzad. Sarth+Drakes. |
| 18:21.10 | NeoTron | to mention two |
| 18:21.16 | NightHawkTheSane | saph |
| 18:21.17 | Shirik | Both of those are rare cases that you have to move |
| 18:21.19 | Shirik | and even if you do |
| 18:21.21 | NightHawkTheSane | (fucking blizzards) |
| 18:21.33 | Shirik | I've gotten good at shift home ctrl c, move, ctrl v |
| 18:21.46 | Kirov | shirik - mouse move |
| 18:22.04 | Lunessa | Seriously - this conversation isn't about "why should I think about getting vent" it's about "why kludge doesn't want to get it and thinks no one should ever make him." |
| 18:22.06 | Shirik | I could Kirov, but I'm just not used to it |
| 18:22.09 | Kirov | However, it doesn't get around the issue that saying things is usually faster than typing them. |
| 18:22.17 | *** join/#wowuidev daev (n=bleh@pool-72-86-106-233.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 18:22.20 | Shirik | I will admit saying things is faster |
| 18:22.21 | kluge | lunessa, the conversation is about the benefits and drawbacks of vents |
| 18:22.22 | Kirov | Especially since people usually aren't reading chat during an encounter. |
| 18:22.23 | NightHawkTheSane | Lunessa: ooh, we have a winner :) |
| 18:22.26 | Shirik | but we go back to our "no spam" rule of vent |
| 18:22.28 | Jamash | p3lim: it's defined in UIParent.lua |
| 18:22.35 | Shirik | Only healers need to know what I say, so I say it in heal chat |
| 18:22.39 | p3lim | Jamash: thanks |
| 18:22.40 | kluge | frmo a perspective of a new player trying to decide if he will use it or not |
| 18:22.46 | kluge | its not me hating on it.... |
| 18:22.50 | kluge | its not me trolling about it |
| 18:22.56 | Shirik | btw don't get me wrong, we rely on vent significantly |
| 18:22.59 | Kirov | TROLL! |
| 18:23.03 | kluge | hehe |
| 18:23.05 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: also, typing may work for you and 3s casts, but for those of us who have 1-2s casts and use haste heavily, we really can't type :\ |
| 18:23.07 | Kirov | gets out the troll bat |
| 18:23.12 | Shirik | Not my problem NightHawkTheSane :) |
| 18:23.17 | kamdis | having used vent for so long, I often forget to read chat. :| |
| 18:23.18 | NightHawkTheSane | yeah, i know |
| 18:23.26 | NightHawkTheSane | but pointing out that what works for you can't be generalized |
| 18:23.30 | Shirik | kamdis: If you miss your assignments I WILL yell at you |
| 18:23.43 | Shirik | as a result, most people have their heal chat a neon pink or something now |
| 18:23.44 | kluge | oh another thing, i like to play wow with little to no audio and put my music on. |
| 18:23.48 | kluge | vent would interrupt my tunes. |
| 18:23.50 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: are healing assignments really that important for anything other than sarth+drakes? |
| 18:23.58 | Shirik | 4 horsemen |
| 18:24.04 | Jamash | people still use healing channels? |
| 18:24.07 | kamdis | Well, if anyone were giving me an assignment, it'd be in Vent. :P |
| 18:24.13 | Shirik | Jamash: Amusingly |
| 18:24.15 | NightHawkTheSane | okay, aside from gimmick fights that necessarily split the raid up? :p |
| 18:24.25 | kamdis | also, we don't yell at people in my guild. |
| 18:24.26 | Shirik | it's mostly used as a location to discuss where to get porn or something |
| 18:24.47 | Shirik | But NightHawkTheSane, you're right, in general no. Assignments are one of the few things that we discuss there though |
| 18:24.51 | NightHawkTheSane | Jamash: we do, and we DO do healing assignments, but its not set in stone |
| 18:24.57 | Shirik | In general it's more of a "what went wrong, how can we improve" channel |
| 18:25.03 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: yeah, im just being snarky ;) |
| 18:25.05 | Shirik | in particular, 3D makes use of that |
| 18:25.25 | NightHawkTheSane | we also use it to make sure the healers know who the tanks will be for a given fight (as we rotate tanks) |
| 18:25.34 | Kirov | When it comes to vent, there's one major reason to use it (it's also probably the biggest arguement against it): Hearing the inane random shit that happens to people in their real lives when they accidentially have the push to talk key down or aren't using push to talk. |
| 18:25.53 | Shirik | Kirov: Or figuring out what TV shows they watch |
| 18:26.05 | Lunessa | Kirov: There's a lot of entertainment value in that. |
| 18:26.11 | Kirov | My all time favorite moment from vent is hearing one guy talk back to his mom about not wanting to eat an apple and getting bitch slapped ... on vent ... for it. |
| 18:26.11 | NightHawkTheSane | Kirov: or hearing a person breath, because they don't use PTT and they're mic is too close to their mouth |
| 18:26.13 | NeoTron | kluge: it's ultimately your decision and it doesn't sound like you're very hardcore in any way so it's possible you can get away without it |
| 18:26.17 | Lunessa | Ok, I have a meeting. Back in a bit. |
| 18:26.23 | NeoTron | kluge: but even the ultra casual guilds I know people in use either Vent or TS |
| 18:26.30 | Lopeppeppy | Ventrilo is excellent for organization in a raid group that chooses it as an orgnaizational tool, and has members who will use it in that fashion, and that fashion only. |
| 18:26.33 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: in my old guild, one of our MTs consistently watched porn during raids. you could hear it over vent. it was hilarious. :) |
| 18:26.38 | Shirik | lol |
| 18:26.40 | Shirik | wtf |
| 18:26.42 | krimpsok | haha |
| 18:26.49 | kluge | neotron, my deal is this, i was on RAF and want to play, but i know my lack of experience is going to limit me for another 6 months or so. i want to play all classes, and know most specs. |
| 18:26.50 | NeoTron | Shirik: ironically healing assignments is one of the things we do NOT do in vent |
| 18:27.01 | Lopeppeppy | NHTS, in my old raid group, if someone were watching TV and we heard it over Vent, they were benched and we brought in someone who actually *wanted* to raid. :) |
| 18:27.11 | Lopeppeppy | I love Dagma's healing assignment addon. I miss Dagma! |
| 18:27.16 | Shirik | Interestingly, we used to talk ventrilo to the next level |
| 18:27.18 | NeoTron | kluge: is raiding even a concern for you? |
| 18:27.24 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: see, the thing is, he was still doing a great job tanking, so no one really minded :) |
| 18:27.27 | Shirik | Taking advantage of all of its frequently unused features |
| 18:27.28 | NeoTron | sounds like perhaps you just want to dink around in heroics, level your alts etc |
| 18:27.30 | Shirik | I used to run a BF2 team |
| 18:27.37 | Shirik | And our squads would be in different channels |
| 18:27.47 | Kirov | NightHawkTheSane - I had a mage / officer like that. What made it more funny is the fact that he was playing at work, and was (at his office) that guild's guild master's boss, who was also playing at work in the office next to him. |
| 18:27.50 | Shirik | squad leads would have a line to the commander and that would be the only communication between the squads |
| 18:27.56 | Shirik | It worked rather well to reduce spam |
| 18:27.58 | kluge | neotron, well you have the right idea in a way, but i cant focus on my alts until i get my priest 80 and geared. |
| 18:28.00 | NeoTron | Lopeppeppy: maybe a new project for me to make raid leading easier |
| 18:28.00 | Shirik | this was a 12 man team though |
| 18:28.11 | NeoTron | let my healing leader set up assignments, and if he's gone I can just use his templates :P |
| 18:28.21 | NightHawkTheSane | Kirov: nice :) |
| 18:28.29 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: that's pretty clever |
| 18:29.09 | Lopeppeppy | NeoTron, it's excellently awesome to do that. |
| 18:29.17 | kluge | it has been more effort to holdback from endgame than it would be to engage in it |
| 18:29.25 | kluge | my server is begging for healers non stop |
| 18:29.30 | Lopeppeppy | We had templates. Archimonde -- Group 1, 2 DPS, one paladin healer, one shaman for totems... that sort of thing. |
| 18:29.38 | Arrowmaster | back in 40 mans, our rogues all had user2user binds setup going to all the other rogues and they would chat about random shit all the time, even when they were doing completely different things like some in a 20 man and others bging |
| 18:30.02 | kluge | oh thats another thing i find annoying, people in my guild chat on vent while were instancing. |
| 18:30.12 | kluge | idle chat |
| 18:30.17 | Jamash | kluge: that's what channels are for |
| 18:30.35 | kluge | i like to keep my wow pure. |
| 18:30.40 | Kirov | kluge - that's a big difference between the various levels of guild you go to. |
| 18:31.11 | Kirov | Basically, vent will always be used for idle chat for certain people. The difference is when it'll be used. |
| 18:31.13 | kluge | a disciplined and organized vent channel sounds like a totally new and different experience id be interested in. its not very common though. |
| 18:31.20 | *** join/#wowuidev devZero (n=devZero@209-20-86-91.slicehost.net) |
| 18:31.39 | devZero | is there a way to tell using LUA whether or not the client is live, or ptr? |
| 18:31.49 | krka | devZero: LUA, what's that? Did you mean to say Lua? ;-) |
| 18:31.51 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlThePagan (n=karl@lanip-170-65.go180.net) |
| 18:31.51 | Kirov | During raiding, most competent guilds will tell people to shut up in vent or risk global muting. |
| 18:31.55 | Jamash | look at the version string from GetBuildInfo, probably |
| 18:32.04 | kluge | that would be cool at least. |
| 18:32.12 | NightHawkTheSane | o_0 |
| 18:32.14 | devZero | yeah, but I'd like to do it without hardcoding a specific build number |
| 18:32.15 | Shirik | oops |
| 18:32.19 | NightHawkTheSane | most of the times, we shit around in vent if it's not a raid |
| 18:32.22 | Kirov | kluge - the other option (one I use) is inane chatters I mute locally. |
| 18:32.24 | Jamash | don't ptr builds always start with a 0? |
| 18:32.24 | devZero | ...and yes, I meant Lua :P |
| 18:32.28 | NightHawkTheSane | even/especialy if we're doing 5-mans |
| 18:32.37 | Jamash | I'd check myself but I can't get on wow atm |
| 18:32.46 | devZero | hmm, thanks |
| 18:32.48 | Shirik | mysql> UPDATE eqdkp_raid_attendees SET member_name="Innocence"; |
| 18:32.48 | Shirik | Query OK, 7726 rows affected (0.10 sec) |
| 18:32.51 | Shirik | ... |
| 18:33.05 | Shirik | yay for backups |
| 18:33.14 | Jamash | you just overwrote every name in the database? |
| 18:33.19 | krimpsok | hehe :P |
| 18:33.23 | kluge | oh well thanks for the info guys now i know what to do you really helped me to solve the vent question |
| 18:33.26 | Lopeppeppy | We just call him little Bobby Tables. |
| 18:33.27 | Shirik | well, every raid now has 25x Innocence |
| 18:33.33 | Shirik | at least |
| 18:33.37 | Shirik | every fight, actually |
| 18:33.37 | nevcairiel | rofl Shirik |
| 18:33.41 | kluge | i just need to look for a guild that thinks vent is for raiding and not for BSing, at least during raids. |
| 18:34.04 | Olison | Nice of him to show up so ofte...of wait |
| 18:34.09 | Jamash | vent is for playing PowerThirst commercials |
| 18:34.09 | Fisker- | hey Shirik |
| 18:34.38 | Kirov | kluge - I will say one thing, if you get in a guild and hear people complain "but WoW is a game, games are supposed to be fun! I should be able to chat in vent while we're raiding because that's fun!" Leave the guild post-haste if nothing is done. |
| 18:34.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft (n=kraftman@cpc3-cwma2-0-0-cust836.swan.cable.ntl.com) |
| 18:35.05 | kluge | lol cool kirov thanks for the tip |
| 18:35.39 | kluge | basically what i dislike about vent is that im gonna hear peoples opinions on things other than wow, which if i wanted that, id come on irc. |
| 18:35.55 | kluge | i wow for escapism and clarity/focus from the rest of the world, like a lot of people. |
| 18:36.10 | kluge | so vent just encroaches on that escape to a different place |
| 18:36.16 | kluge | etc |
| 18:36.27 | krimpsok | Shirik: Your trying to replace an old name with Innocence? |
| 18:36.31 | kluge | ill look for a quiet 1. |
| 18:36.33 | Shirik | yes |
| 18:37.06 | NightHawkTheSane | kluge: i think you're making a vast overgeneralization with "like a lot of people" |
| 18:37.11 | Shirik | Actually, not quite krimpsok |
| 18:37.16 | Shirik | I'm trying to merge two names |
| 18:37.25 | kluge | NightHawkTheSane, why do you think most people play wow? |
| 18:37.52 | Kirov | LOOTZ! |
| 18:37.56 | kluge | hehe |
| 18:37.59 | Jamash | I play wow socially |
| 18:38.00 | krimpsok | Shirik: So just change the name but keep the id that's associated with it? |
| 18:38.12 | Shirik | Again, trying to merge two names |
| 18:38.20 | Shirik | need to recalculate dkp values, etc. |
| 18:38.24 | NightHawkTheSane | kluge: *shrug* i dont know, but there are a lot of reasons, and generalizing people into just one seems like a mistake |
| 18:38.36 | kluge | i just said a lot, not most. |
| 18:38.43 | Shirik | Because, for some reason, eqdkp decides not to use constrants on DKP values, so moving over the items and raids does NOT actually do anything |
| 18:38.44 | kluge | surely, a LOT of people.. millions.. play wow, for escapism. |
| 18:38.53 | Kirov | kluge - I play wow to have something to do. The social aspect beyond my small preexisting group of friends is small. My fiancee on the other hand is one of the chatters. |
| 18:38.56 | Shirik | the total DKP is actually in the eqdkp_members table |
| 18:39.00 | kluge | to transport themself to another place where their day to day worries arent so bad |
| 18:39.00 | Kirov | (out of raiding) |
| 18:39.20 | Shirik | Because, you know, it takes far too long to calculate it every time. All those thousands of raid members you have. |
| 18:39.23 | Fisker- | :( |
| 18:39.26 | kluge | right kirov, something to do other than: experience regular life. AKA to escape. |
| 18:39.40 | Fisker- | So i was all like "Hey Shirik" but you were like "I HATE YOU" :( |
| 18:39.54 | Shirik | affirmative good sir |
| 18:40.02 | kluge | like if you wanted to DETAIL your car.. or something.. you could.. but youd much rather go somewhere where you have superhuman powers to kill monsters.. wouldnt most of us!! |
| 18:40.20 | Jamash | Shirik is a seething ball of hate |
| 18:41.15 | Jamash | like a koosh, but made of hatred |
| 18:41.22 | Kirov | I don't know, Car Detailer Tycoon takes up a lot of my time outside of wow... |
| 18:41.59 | kluge | it sounds boring cuz it sounds too realistic. wows way more exciting and fantastic. |
| 18:42.49 | NightHawkTheSane | kluge: i think there's a sizable population that would rather detail their car than play wow. |
| 18:42.49 | Shirik | car detailer tycoon? |
| 18:42.51 | Shirik | seriouslsy? |
| 18:42.55 | Kirov | But, there's this one part where you get to take an old toothbrush and clean the crit out of the corner of the dash that's _awesome_ |
| 18:43.15 | Jamash | ha ha, you said crit instead of grit |
| 18:43.25 | Jamash | wow has infected your mind |
| 18:43.29 | kluge | kirov yah i like to do it on long drives myself that way i dont get bored |
| 18:43.33 | kluge | its distracting |
| 18:43.43 | kluge | u can get so involved |
| 18:43.46 | kluge | minmaxing ur dash |
| 18:43.54 | Kirov | Shirik - Luckily no, but the fact that you even momentarily entertained the idea that one might says a lot about the "Tycoon" games. |
| 18:44.06 | Jamash | tycoon tycoon |
| 18:45.58 | Kirov | Coon Tycoon |
| 18:46.54 | NightHawkTheSane | Your MOM Tycoon |
| 18:46.56 | Kirov | (Question: Did you imagine an urban wildlife simulator involving racoons, or an urban wildlife simulator involving african americans?) |
| 18:47.08 | Lopeppeppy | Kirov! *poke* |
| 18:47.18 | kluge | actually i played a japanese amusement park tycoon game where u could have raccoons. |
| 18:47.19 | kluge | 1 winter |
| 18:47.25 | kluge | while i waited for internet to get instaled. |
| 18:47.42 | Kirov | kluge - probably wasn't a racoon, exactly. |
| 18:48.11 | Kirov | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanuki |
| 18:48.38 | kluge | yah it looked like that |
| 18:48.42 | kluge | but it was translated raccoon |
| 18:48.57 | kluge | neat |
| 18:49.18 | Kirov | note the comment at the top of that wiki page |
| 18:49.25 | Kirov | Tanuki is often mistakenly translated as raccoon or badger. |
| 18:49.30 | kluge | ya |
| 18:49.46 | kluge | oh |
| 18:49.52 | kluge | those are the creatures on pom poko |
| 18:49.54 | kluge | the racoon war |
| 18:49.58 | kluge | no wonder they had huge nuts |
| 18:50.00 | Jamash | yes |
| 18:50.01 | kluge | i thot that was inapro |
| 18:50.19 | Jamash | also the tanuki suit in super mario bros 3 |
| 18:50.27 | Jamash | and tom nook in animal crossing |
| 18:50.40 | Kirov | There's no english word for Tanuki, since they don't exist anywhere else, just like raccoons don't exist in Japan. |
| 18:50.49 | kluge | oh nice! |
| 18:51.50 | Kirov | Random note about Japan - you know the song "Hands, Feet, Head Knees & Toes" |
| 18:51.54 | kluge | sure |
| 18:52.33 | Kirov | The japanese version includes the rest of the body, ie: penis, breasts, scrotum, etc. |
| 18:52.44 | Jamash | oh, those wacky japanese |
| 18:53.15 | kluge | they dont have proper shame of their bodies i think. |
| 18:53.38 | Kirov | So, having a raccoon equivalent with giant testicles is considered family entertainment. |
| 18:53.49 | kluge | cool |
| 18:54.05 | Kirov | Ever been to a Bennihanas? |
| 18:54.30 | kluge | no dont know what it is |
| 18:54.41 | NightHawkTheSane | o_0 "proper shame of their bodies"? |
| 18:54.50 | Lopeppeppy | wrinkles her nose |
| 18:54.57 | Cairenn | it's major goodness of yumminess! |
| 18:55.00 | kluge | sarcasm nighthawk |
| 18:55.06 | MentalPower | does anyone know, given a flickr image URL how to find the uploader's page? |
| 18:56.12 | Kirov | It's an american japanese restaurant. They happen to have a giant Tanuki at the front of every one of their locations ... suspiciously absent are the giant balls. |
| 18:56.28 | kluge | haha cool kirov |
| 18:57.13 | kluge | there was this big statue of a bigfoot where i live, some tourist town, it had a massive member. they made the scultor/property owner turn it around so tis back is to the road lol |
| 18:57.38 | kluge | mentalpower try this: http://www.bram.us/2008/01/12/my-priceless-flickr-tip-how-to-find-the-original-flickr-photo-url-and-user-from-a-static-flickr-image-url/ |
| 18:58.45 | MentalPower | WOOT, thanks kluge! |
| 18:59.13 | kluge | np |
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| 19:02.47 | Shirik | So the other day, I learned what a semaphore actually was |
| 19:03.00 | Shirik | I was so confused when they started talking about boats and I'm sitting there like "wtf does a boat have to do with a semaphore" |
| 19:03.07 | kluge | lol! |
| 19:03.13 | kluge | i dont even know it as anything else myself. |
| 19:03.26 | kluge | i gotta go heal uk now thanks for the info this morning :) |
| 19:03.27 | durcyn | words had meanings before computers, Shirik |
| 19:03.50 | foxlit | durcyn: there was a time when computers did not exist? |
| 19:04.16 | foxlit | is denying everything and claiming computers did it. |
| 19:04.19 | NightHawkTheSane | durcyn: LIES! LIES AND SLANDER! |
| 19:04.40 | Zootfizzle | durcyn has an incorrect perception of time |
| 19:04.45 | durcyn | that's my story and i'm sticking to it. |
| 19:04.51 | Lopeppeppy | What am time? |
| 19:05.02 | foxlit | What be tense? |
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| 19:05.43 | NightHawkTheSane | i be tense. |
| 19:09.13 | devZero | meh, ptr is down :/ |
| 19:10.13 | nevcairiel | hm new build? |
| 19:10.45 | devZero | I would expect that tomorrow, not on monday... unless something was _really_ broken |
| 19:10.48 | NeoTron | or... done? :) |
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| 19:10.59 | devZero | or ulduar type testing... but I haven't kept up on that |
| 19:11.08 | NeoTron | man if I didn't have to do another immortal run... I wouldn't complain |
| 19:11.32 | devZero | I just left my guild because they fail at hardmode... |
| 19:11.54 | devZero | not because they don't have talent, but becayse their more concerned w/ politics than taking the right people |
| 19:12.13 | devZero | you just don't skip over 4k+ dps for a half geared alt |
| 19:20.44 | Cairenn | wheee, net split |
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| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Zyndrome (n=faggotry@h242n2-ks-d3.ias.bredband.telia.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|Away (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev kmcguire (n=kmcguire@24-196-12-215.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com) |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev WoW-Bot (n=WoW-Bot@pool-96-244-129-115.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Industrial (n=Industri@194.145.194.227) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev wereHamster (n=tomc@static.101.209.46.78.clients.your-server.de) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:22.40 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+vv Nechckn Esamynn|Away] by irc.freenode.net |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Maldivia (n=the_real@merge.beerzone.dk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Addybot (n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 19:22.40 | *** join/#wowuidev pastamancer (n=kyle@vostok.13th-floor.org) |
| 19:23.21 | NightHawkTheSane | see, we let girls on the internet, and THIS happens. :P |
| 19:23.22 | Shirik | yay |
| 19:23.22 | Shirik | Cairenn and Zootfizzle are on my server |
| 19:23.22 | Shirik | feels special |
| 19:23.22 | Cairenn | :) |
| 19:23.22 | End | Are they asking you for favors? |
| 19:23.22 | Shirik | Girls are on IRC. IRC netsplit. Therefore girls caused the netsplit. |
| 19:23.22 | Shirik | Totally logical conclusion |
| 19:23.22 | Tewan | http://xkcd.com/ |
| 19:23.22 | Fisker- | STOP TESTING MY FAITH SHIRIK |
| 19:23.22 | Tewan | awesome comic today is awesome |
| 19:23.23 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: totally |
| 19:23.23 | Lopeppeppy | Shirik. I beats you with a popsicle stick. |
| 19:23.23 | Shirik | oo |
| 19:23.23 | *** join/#wowuidev AckisWork (i=8ee55e3e@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Troll/Ackis) |
| 19:23.53 | Shirik | Also, Repo fails |
| 19:23.53 | Shirik | you don't see Shiibot dying on netsplit |
| 19:23.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 19:23.54 | Lopeppeppy | NO! Repo is an awesome movie. |
| 19:23.54 | Shirik | hmm? |
| 19:23.54 | NeoTron | devZero: politics is hard. |
| 19:23.54 | NeoTron | devZero: although my current guild has a set of leaders, we pretty much agree that raiders perform or are replaced |
| 19:23.54 | AckisWork | Shirik: tbh I don't see Shiibot doing anything ;) |
| 19:23.54 | Shirik | that's because he has nothing to do |
| 19:23.54 | AckisWork | anyone know how to dynamically link an excel graph to a word document? |
| 19:23.55 | Shirik | However, he's always silently watching |
| 19:23.55 | Shirik | waiting |
| 19:23.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (n=chatzill@pool-173-52-187-170.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 19:23.55 | AckisWork | and then |
| 19:23.55 | Tewan | erm |
| 19:23.55 | AckisWork | he'll do |
| 19:23.55 | AckisWork | NOTHING |
| 19:23.55 | Kraps | the shaman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHO2h_NPkE8 |
| 19:23.55 | cncfanatics | Shiibot is the awesome bot of nothingness |
| 19:23.55 | Shirik | fu all |
| 19:23.55 | cncfanatics | ~Shiibot |
| 19:23.56 | purl | my slower, dumber, less evolved companion bot. but the sex is great. |
| 19:23.56 | cncfanatics | purl, Shiibot is the awesome bot of nothingness |
| 19:23.57 | purl | ...but shiibot is already something else... |
| 19:23.57 | cncfanatics | aww, where's purl :( |
| 19:23.57 | Shirik | purl, forget Shiibot |
| 19:23.57 | purl | i forgot shiibot, Shirik |
| 19:23.57 | Shirik | purl, Shiibot is the awesome bot of awesomeness |
| 19:23.58 | purl | okay, Shirik |
| 19:23.58 | Shirik | purl, lock Shiibot |
| 19:23.58 | cncfanatics | purl ain't even here |
| 19:23.59 | NightHawkTheSane | This is pretty amusing: http://www.sophiehoulden.com/games/thelinearrpg/ |
| 19:24.31 | Shirik | I win. |
| 19:24.31 | cncfanatics | ~Shiibot |
| 19:24.32 | purl | i guess shiibot is the awesome bot of awesomeness |
| 19:24.32 | Shirik | purl has lag |
| 19:25.04 | Shirik | which I correctly identified |
| 19:25.37 | cncfanatics | I did prefer the old description tbh |
| 19:25.37 | AckisWork | what does that bot do btw? (real question) |
| 19:25.37 | Shirik | Anyway, shiibot is an anti-spam bot. If there's no spam, there's nothing for him to do. |
| 19:25.37 | Shirik | I did too, actually |
| 19:25.37 | AckisWork | ah ok |
| 19:25.39 | Shirik | I didn't realize it was there |
| 19:25.39 | cncfanatics | reset the old one |
| 19:25.39 | cncfanatics | ! |
| 19:26.03 | Shirik | (hint: purl did not allow me to lock that factoid) |
| 19:26.03 | durcyn | purl, ignore Shirik |
| 19:26.03 | purl | ACTION sticks her fingers in her ears. "La, la, la! I can't hear you, Shirik!" |
| 19:26.04 | cncfanatics | purl, forget Shiibot |
| 19:26.04 | purl | cncfanatics: i forgot shiibot |
| 19:26.24 | cncfanatics | now how do you set those literals again |
| 19:26.40 | durcyn | x is <reply> |
| 19:26.40 | nevcairiel | purl, cncfanatics is weird |
| 19:26.41 | purl | ...but cncfanatics is already something else... |
| 19:26.48 | nevcairiel | :( |
| 19:26.48 | Shirik | AckisWork, he monitors chat and if he detects spam, he sets +Rrf on the channel |
| 19:26.57 | cncfanatics | purl, Shiibot is <reply>my slower, dumber, less evolved companion bot. but the sex is great. |
| 19:26.58 | purl | cncfanatics: okay |
| 19:27.34 | Shirik | Based on past history he tends to lock it by the third message |
| 19:27.34 | cncfanatics | ~Shiibot |
| 19:27.35 | purl | my slower, dumber, less evolved companion bot. but the sex is great. |
| 19:27.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Qzot (n=qzot@mail.guidewire.com) |
| 19:27.35 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlThePagan1 (n=karl@lanip-170-65.go180.net) |
| 19:27.35 | devZero | NeoTron: worthy politics is hard... politics regarding personX wanting to gear an alt and leaving people out because your a guild officer/leader and you can is just plain dumb |
| 19:28.09 | devZero | I have this standpoint as someone who was never left out.. I was always in raid group.. I just got tired of wiping needlessly while the real raiders sat on the sidelines :) |
| 19:28.17 | Shirik | For example |
| 19:28.17 | Shirik | ML: #wowuidev :+devZero: politics is hard. |
| 19:28.17 | Shirik | Total score: 2.4758980401877 |
| 19:28.33 | cncfanatics | mmm, I wish we had a worthy raid grp :( |
| 19:28.33 | nevcairiel | so if i type really fast in multiple liens? |
| 19:28.43 | devZero | scratches is head |
| 19:28.43 | Shirik | or better yet |
| 19:28.51 | Shirik | :Fisker-!i=ballmer@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk PRIVMSG #wowuidev :+STOP TESTING MY FAITH SHIRIK |
| 19:28.56 | Shirik | Total score: 26.372610584303 |
| 19:29.04 | Shirik | nevcairiel: I doubt you could reach it |
| 19:29.17 | NightHawkTheSane | only 26? i would have thought Fisker- himself had a +50 mod :P |
| 19:29.20 | cncfanatics | if I copypasted some guild selling message over & over ? :p |
| 19:29.27 | cncfanatics | s/guild/gold/ |
| 19:29.31 | durcyn | ~nickometer Fisker- |
| 19:29.41 | Shirik | cncfanatics: He was designed to deal with botnets, not single messages |
| 19:29.45 | Shirik | those can be dealt with by ops |
| 19:29.52 | cncfanatics | ah ok i see |
| 19:31.31 | Shirik | Actually I don't really know why Fisker-'s score was that high |
| 19:31.36 | Shirik | but I'm not going to bother trying to analyze it |
| 19:31.52 | NeoTron | devZero: well sure but I guess the guild goal was not to do achievements but to gear alts. :P |
| 19:31.57 | Arrowmaster | because it was caps? |
| 19:31.58 | Shirik | (26 is actually pretty high) |
| 19:32.08 | Shirik | I didn't think I had any routines to check for all caps |
| 19:32.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Pytlask (i=c64a263b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-64fca86d863048eb) |
| 19:32.28 | foxlit | ALL CAPS AND NO PLAY MAKE MESSAGE SEEM LIKE SPAM. |
| 19:32.29 | Arrowmaster | STOP TESTING MY FAITH SHIRIK |
| 19:32.33 | Tewan | Question regarding Dogtags |
| 19:32.41 | Tewan | can you make a new line via it? |
| 19:33.04 | Tewan | like health(newline)mana |
| 19:33.09 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: your bot is learning! kill it now before it spawns skynet! |
| 19:33.49 | Shirik | blah |
| 19:33.51 | Shirik | log is buffered |
| 19:33.58 | Shirik | so I can't see Arrowmaster's message score |
| 19:34.07 | tekkub | heh, which buttons, config? |
| 19:34.11 | tekkub | mt |
| 19:34.27 | Shirik | hm, I guess I do have something for all caps then |
| 19:34.34 | Shirik | foxlit's was 21, Arrowmaster's was 20 |
| 19:34.47 | Shirik | (which is unusual because it usually goes up) |
| 19:34.58 | Shirik | Oh I know why, is because foxlit hadn't said anything in a while |
| 19:35.16 | Shirik | anyway gotta go |
| 19:35.21 | foxlit | I have an evil plan |
| 19:35.22 | ScytheBlade1 | ~failrik |
| 19:35.23 | purl | FAIL, Shirik, FAIL! |
| 19:35.30 | foxlit | given multiple bot ages, just replay the channel's logs |
| 19:35.56 | foxlit | From like a few weeks ago -- nobody would be the wiser, and you accomplish the disruption you set out to cause. |
| 19:36.08 | foxlit | ages=agents, I apparently can't spill. |
| 19:36.41 | End | cue bots arguing about UI policy |
| 19:39.12 | cog|work | ~8ball Will blizzard ever respond re: ui policy? |
| 19:39.14 | purl | I'm not sure. |
| 19:39.55 | cog|work | such insight... |
| 19:40.35 | Anaral | ~8ball Will people ever stop bitching? |
| 19:40.36 | purl | Negative. |
| 19:40.45 | Anaral | lol |
| 19:40.55 | foxlit | ~8ball Are you sure? |
| 19:40.56 | purl | Absolutely. |
| 19:41.04 | cog|work | ~botsnack |
| 19:41.04 | purl | :), cog|work |
| 19:41.06 | Anaral | lol |
| 19:41.11 | Anaral | Awesome |
| 19:41.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 19:42.28 | malreth | http://web.me.com/skulldouggery/Site_4/Skullbloggery/Entries/2009/3/26_Truck_stop_mayhem.html |
| 19:43.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper1 (n=Spellsha@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-053.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 19:44.01 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 19:51.36 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@wireless-128-62-136-104.public.utexas.edu) |
| 19:53.17 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@wireless-128-62-136-104.public.utexas.edu) |
| 19:54.46 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@wireless-128-62-136-104.public.utexas.edu) |
| 19:56.34 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@wireless-128-62-136-104.public.utexas.edu) |
| 19:58.11 | Lunessa | malreth: Dude, seriously, wtf? |
| 19:58.30 | malreth | that's why i always trim on the weekend |
| 19:59.35 | Fisker- | http://eu.blizzard.com/blizzcast/archive/episode8.xml <-i came :3 |
| 20:00.42 | nevcairiel | So we are getting a new build, good times. Something to read through when i get up tomorrow :) |
| 20:03.52 | Cairenn | malreth: ROFL |
| 20:03.57 | Cairenn | this is hilarious |
| 20:05.16 | foxlit | http://eu.blizzard.com/blizzcast/_images/episode8/d302.jpg |
| 20:05.17 | foxlit | yikes |
| 20:05.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Hracken (n=ozzy@c-98-245-39-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 20:05.27 | foxlit | that's their UI design? |
| 20:05.59 | Lopeppeppy | malreth, you are a bad monkey. NSFW, foo! |
| 20:08.00 | Lunessa | I can't find the LJ entry I was looking for about the same topice. |
| 20:08.04 | Lunessa | topic |
| 20:08.42 | Lopeppeppy | Don't look at me. |
| 20:08.47 | Lopeppeppy | is innocent of all but malice. |
| 20:09.27 | Cairenn | that almost ranks up there with the naaham_darling article |
| 20:10.14 | *** join/#wowuidev widgertick (i=c64a263b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8163aecc23120a3) |
| 20:10.14 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o widgertick] by ChanServ |
| 20:11.57 | NeoTron | I wonder if D3 will have a lua-based UI... |
| 20:12.11 | mikma | hope not |
| 20:12.24 | mikma | default ui worked fine in d1 and d2 ;) |
| 20:12.44 | nevcairiel | default ui works for wow |
| 20:13.02 | haste | ~rimshot |
| 20:13.03 | purl | ba-dum CHH |
| 20:13.03 | alestane | UI "style" is a more critical factor in D# than in WoW. |
| 20:13.05 | Beladona | it can be lua based, and not be open to addons |
| 20:13.31 | Beladona | I don't think addons lend as well to something like d3 anyway |
| 20:14.09 | mikma | <nevcairiel> default ui works for wow <- qft |
| 20:14.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 20:15.16 | NeoTron | default style might be more "critical" but doesn't mean it's best :) |
| 20:15.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Other games have lua based UIs just fine |
| 20:15.58 | Thunder_Child | Beladona, somehow i bet that 2 billion people can think up a btter UI than the 50 at blizzard |
| 20:16.00 | NeoTron | I mainly meant user modifiable using a supported mechanism |
| 20:16.15 | Thunder_Child | as a group that is |
| 20:16.18 | NeoTron | Thunder_Child: more correct: there's more than one "best ui" since it's very subjective |
| 20:16.28 | Thunder_Child | never said best |
| 20:16.29 | NeoTron | WoW very much proves that. |
| 20:19.15 | Lunessa | Ok, I found it... may not be Work-Safe |
| 20:19.17 | Lunessa | http://ibloviate.org/index.php?p=writing-manscaping |
| 20:20.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Kowski (n=ykow@pv130242.reshsg.uci.edu) |
| 20:21.43 | Lopeppeppy | RTFM, Lunessa. |
| 20:21.46 | Lopeppeppy | *serious nod* |
| 20:23.30 | NightHawkTheSane | Lunessa: o_0 |
| 20:23.42 | Lunessa | That cracks me up every time I read it. |
| 20:23.56 | malreth | Congratulations. |
| 20:24.03 | malreth | You've officially made me wince and cry. |
| 20:24.13 | Lopeppeppy | .... write that down, Lunessa. |
| 20:24.27 | Lunessa | Red Letter Day! |
| 20:24.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 20:24.45 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 20:25.27 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (n=soufron@vol75-1-81-57-79-123.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:26.12 | Shirik | Hm |
| 20:26.22 | Shirik | I just realized on our tasks list, "Fault Recovery Algorithm" is #13 |
| 20:26.32 | Lopeppeppy | Meeep! |
| 20:26.49 | Fisker- | stop hating me Shirik :( |
| 20:26.54 | widgertick | Maybe if you had a better fault recovery algorithm, it'd be higher up on your list |
| 20:27.14 | *** join/#wowuidev ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:27.32 | Fisker- | btw foxlit |
| 20:27.59 | Thunder_Child | http://i.gizmodo.com/5190252/found-18+karat-atari-computer-chip-bangle-geek-vitality-%252B10 |
| 20:28.02 | Shirik | pokes widgertick |
| 20:28.02 | Fisker- | The biggest surprise is that they've only gotten to 1024x768 in resolution! |
| 20:28.14 | Fisker- | So i guess in the Diablo 3 expansion we'll get 1280x1024 |
| 20:28.15 | Fisker- | hoho |
| 20:28.18 | widgertick | is poked! |
| 20:28.20 | MentalPower | malreth: I feel your pain, literally (been there with nair) |
| 20:28.53 | cog|work | tries very hard not to picture MentalPower in short shorts |
| 20:29.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft (n=kraftman@cpc3-cwma2-0-0-cust836.swan.cable.ntl.com) |
| 20:29.16 | cog|work | or any male for that matter |
| 20:29.30 | Thunder_Child | is it working? |
| 20:29.38 | cog|work | so far |
| 20:31.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe22fa00-138.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 20:33.09 | Lopeppeppy | G'night, guys! |
| 20:33.11 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@141.222.29.18) |
| 20:34.12 | cog|work | gah... |
| 20:34.22 | cog|work | Reno 911 just popped into my head >< |
| 20:34.26 | Lunessa | Seriously, shorts are only good for swimming and really really hot days - and even then, they must cover plenty 'cause I don't want to be seein' that, you know? |
| 20:34.46 | widgertick | cog|work: You should have pictured MentalPower |
| 20:38.32 | Thunder_Child | "We dropped rogue PvP effectiveness in other ways, as I am sure they will be more than happy to explain to you." *snicker* |
| 20:39.15 | cog|work | chuckles |
| 20:39.40 | *** join/#wowuidev BuglouseR (n=Buglouse@CPE-69-76-77-243.wi.res.rr.com) |
| 20:41.49 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@wireless-128-62-83-129.public.utexas.edu) |
| 20:49.15 | Kraps | is noblegarden in-game or not? |
| 20:49.15 | Thunder_Child | /who's need more information returned |
| 20:49.36 | Thunder_Child | not in my game Kraps |
| 20:49.54 | Thunder_Child | maybe on the prt calendar |
| 20:49.55 | Arrowmaster | yes |
| 20:50.07 | Arrowmaster | just 3.0 and 3.1 have different noblegardens |
| 20:50.22 | Tewan | Anyone know of a good combo point addon? |
| 20:50.32 | Kraps | i dont see it in-game |
| 20:50.40 | Kraps | 3.0 |
| 20:50.46 | Gnarfoz | it's in there for sure. |
| 20:50.52 | Gnarfoz | because it's been there the last 3 years |
| 20:51.04 | Gnarfoz | it's just been revamped in 3.1 - and thus that revamp is not on live servers, yet |
| 20:51.06 | Thunder_Child | i think they removed it fomr the calendar |
| 20:51.23 | Gnarfoz | was there last time I checked |
| 20:51.28 | Gnarfoz | easter sunday, that is |
| 20:51.30 | Arrowmaster | its a 1 day event in 3.0 |
| 20:51.33 | Gnarfoz | it was a 1 day event |
| 20:51.34 | Gnarfoz | yeah |
| 20:51.45 | Thunder_Child | oh |
| 20:51.49 | Thunder_Child | ya, it's there then |
| 20:51.56 | Thunder_Child | april 12th |
| 20:51.58 | Arrowmaster | i wonder if that one egg in durotar still pvp flags anybody that touches it |
| 20:52.04 | Kirov | cog - ahahaha *cough* |
| 20:52.17 | Kraps | i see it |
| 20:52.29 | Kirov | cog - your comment about bliz vs. glider |
| 20:52.56 | Kirov | I went to the link and saw her picture. My first reaction was to protect my cheeks from being pinched. |
| 20:52.56 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: you're not gonna find out ;) |
| 20:52.59 | Thunder_Child | do they still plan on releasing noblegarden with 3.1? |
| 20:53.05 | cog|work | Kirov: lol |
| 20:53.16 | durcyn | Thunder_Child: yeah, they said they'd reschedule the holiday if need be |
| 20:53.22 | Gnarfoz | Thunder_Child: if 3.1 is not ready for live before, they'll postpone it |
| 20:53.36 | Thunder_Child | postponing a holiday....how fail |
| 20:53.47 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 20:53.47 | Gnarfoz | it's a fantasy holiday anyway, who cares |
| 20:54.05 | Thunder_Child | tis based off of a real one however |
| 20:54.11 | Gnarfoz | they couldn't call it "easter holiday" because they're fucking pansies anyway :P |
| 20:54.57 | Kirov | Easter is based off the idea that someone's date of birth and birthday can be 4 months apart. |
| 20:55.11 | Kirov | But, I leave that alone. |
| 20:55.21 | Thunder_Child | i'm sure they kept great records in thoes days |
| 20:56.23 | Kirov | It's not a matter of record keeping, it's a matter of immaculate math errors |
| 20:57.01 | Industrial | woopwoop maly 6min done |
| 20:57.09 | Kirov | Industrial - 25 / 10? |
| 20:57.16 | Industrial | 25 |
| 20:57.19 | Kirov | Nice |
| 20:57.27 | Kirov | Still haven't pulled that one off with my current guild. |
| 20:57.55 | Kirov | We did 10 man w/ 45 seconds to spare, and we could of pulled it off with over a minute if someone hadn't died in phase 1 |
| 20:58.04 | *** join/#wowuidev JackBurton7676 (n=JackBurt@81.90.21.227) |
| 20:58.19 | Kirov | 25 man, the closest we've come is 50 seconds _late_ |
| 20:58.33 | Kirov | On a similar topic... fuck 10 man 3D |
| 20:59.54 | Industrial | I dont do 10man |
| 21:00.12 | Industrial | I did the achievements of most not because i was going for them |
| 21:00.22 | Industrial | eg go when the volcano blows etc ;p |
| 21:00.38 | Industrial | oh on 25man we did that with only me as dps, it was lol |
| 21:00.55 | Fisker- | tackles Gnarfoz |
| 21:01.01 | Gnarfoz | I am tackled |
| 21:01.02 | Fisker- | 3.1 will be out on april 14th |
| 21:01.28 | Kirov | 10m 3d is so painful. It's one of those fights that you can only do with a perfectly stacked team, and if the RNG doesn't fuck you. |
| 21:01.42 | Thunder_Child | i wonder what fun thing we will be getting on the 1st? |
| 21:02.15 | Kirov | Thunder_Child - The forums will change all our avatars to Warhammer characters. |
| 21:02.58 | Fisker- | Why are they wiping arena points? |
| 21:03.09 | Thunder_Child | to clean them |
| 21:03.13 | Fisker- | i hate you |
| 21:03.26 | Thunder_Child | then i am doing my job correctly |
| 21:03.57 | Fisker- | i love you then |
| 21:04.08 | Thunder_Child | well....crap |
| 21:04.26 | widgertick | He loves that he hates you |
| 21:04.36 | Kirov | or hates that he loves you |
| 21:04.39 | Gnarfoz | Fisker-: patches on saturday? say it aint so |
| 21:04.58 | Thunder_Child | Gnarfoz, 14th = tue |
| 21:05.01 | Gnarfoz | Kirov: hm, or you abuse a void walker and do it with a mixed setup |
| 21:05.04 | *** part/#wowuidev widgertick (i=c64a263b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8163aecc23120a3) |
| 21:05.14 | Kirov | Either way, it sounds like a hove late relationship. |
| 21:05.17 | Gnarfoz | Thunder_Child: oh wait, march vs. april. also... EU doesn't get patches on tuesday :p |
| 21:05.25 | Gnarfoz | and Fisker- knows that :p |
| 21:06.38 | Thunder_Child | i'm sure he also doesnt care |
| 21:08.07 | Fisker- | Gnarfoz but the US does |
| 21:08.13 | Fisker- | and perhaps who knows? |
| 21:08.22 | Fisker- | Since the EU has now TAKEN CONTROL BAWWW |
| 21:08.33 | Gnarfoz | of eu-wow, that is |
| 21:08.35 | Gnarfoz | so meh :O |
| 21:08.36 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 21:08.42 | Gnarfoz | it's not like it's gonna matter |
| 21:08.48 | Fisker- | We have a short but important announcement that we wanted to share with our players. World of Warcraft is currently an operation of Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. (USA), but starting April 14, 2009, |
| 21:08.59 | Fisker- | I'm pretty sure April 14th isn't mentioned for arbitrary reasons |
| 21:10.17 | Gnarfoz | probably some fiscal shit? |
| 21:10.17 | Gnarfoz | :p |
| 21:10.22 | Gnarfoz | you knever now! |
| 21:10.34 | Gnarfoz | (yes, that k is quite mobile) |
| 21:11.23 | Fisker- | hax |
| 21:12.19 | durcyn | april fools jokes are cool |
| 21:14.22 | Gnarfoz | durcyn: not |
| 21:14.30 | Gnarfoz | :| |
| 21:14.49 | Fisker- | Actually the april fools joke is the management change |
| 21:15.59 | NeoTron | so it appears my feedback regarding the 5 fricking blue gems in the DK T8 gear was removed |
| 21:16.23 | NeoTron | wonder if it started some flame war or something (one of the early posts was "DK's qq about everthing" type comment) |
| 21:16.46 | Shefki | NeoTron: QQ :P |
| 21:17.28 | NeoTron | Blue is the new Red |
| 21:17.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Ose (n=Ose@wikia/Ose) |
| 21:20.46 | End | I wonder how they decide which gem colors to put in |
| 21:21.57 | NeoTron | "- Hmm who should we screw over with too many blue gems? - How about death knights, tey r OP lol - Ok, good enough, let's give them 5" |
| 21:22.18 | NightHawkTheSane | End: drunken lawn darts, imo |
| 21:22.31 | NeoTron | you'd think they would want gem slots, in the tier set especially, to be benefitial |
| 21:22.33 | durcyn | Fisker-: duh |
| 21:22.44 | NeoTron | not perfect, but not utterly retarded either :P |
| 21:23.20 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: you know you can still put red gems IN them, right? ;) |
| 21:24.14 | Syzgyn | But omg the set bonuses! |
| 21:24.19 | durcyn | but, then he'll miss out on that +3 Critical Strike Rating socket bonus |
| 21:26.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage- (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 21:27.05 | NeoTron | NightHawkTheSane: naturally but that's not the point |
| 21:27.23 | NeoTron | I mean I will gladly ignore all the blue crap (I'm a JC) and put my chromatics in the slots that gain the most from it |
| 21:27.37 | NeoTron | but ... 5 blue is more than the tanking set has and tanks actually WANT blue slots |
| 21:27.50 | NightHawkTheSane | also, i'm totally just fucking with you :P |
| 21:29.32 | End | imo, they should do 2/2/2 + a random color for every class, but it's not up to me, obviously :P |
| 21:29.57 | NeoTron | rogues have 5r2y. WTB rogue set |
| 21:30.05 | End | wow |
| 21:30.43 | *** join/#wowuidev |Jelly| (n=chatzill@68-187-35-8.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 21:31.11 | kamdis | wtb 5 red/2 yellow instead of so many blues. definitely. |
| 21:31.45 | Shefki | NeoTron: New Blizzard policy: Now that we've got you all to enjoy your DK, bend over. |
| 21:36.28 | |Jelly| | Shefki: Don't forget "And re-learned how to play it numerous times" :P |
| 21:42.12 | Cairenn | ~framexml |
| 21:42.12 | purl | Get the official Blizzard Interface AddOn Kit here: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/ui/ or view it online at http://wowcompares.com/ |
| 21:48.33 | mikma | needs runewords |
| 21:50.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Druidicbeast (n=chatzill@pool-173-73-8-207.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:53.50 | NightHawkTheSane | :o http://viralnerd.com/daily/articles/167/beach-balls |
| 21:55.46 | NightHawkTheSane | http://www.livelyivy.com/?p=68 |
| 21:57.11 | mikma | nighthawkthesane: i hope your bech balls are ok after they got trapped |
| 21:58.01 | NightHawkTheSane | not mine, fortunately, i avoid beaches. |
| 22:02.45 | *** join/#wowuidev TC-Away (n=TC@cpe-76-169-229-41.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 22:04.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi` (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-28-223.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 22:05.33 | *** join/#wowuidev [1]Morril (i=Morril@d193-237-246.home3.cgocable.net) |
| 22:07.35 | mikma | damn, http://fukung.net/v/1294/5ffb2480-1.jpg |
| 22:17.03 | Jamash | woohoo, I got my authenticator back |
| 22:19.40 | Jamash | aaaand the ptr is down |
| 22:19.51 | Jamash | just my luck |
| 22:20.04 | Lunessa | cog going to law school? I find myself strangely intrigued. |
| 22:20.15 | Jamash | wuh what? |
| 22:21.16 | Lunessa | Something he said on the forums. |
| 22:21.19 | Jamash | huh |
| 22:21.32 | |Jelly| | Like I said, I don't know if I want to move to Cali or simply shake in my boots. :P |
| 22:23.44 | Adys | wtf is a chef's hat? |
| 22:23.53 | mikma | no hno no, after the blizz ui policy EVERYONE is a lawyer |
| 22:24.38 | cog|work | Lunessa: i took the LSAT back in 2006 and have been procrastinating since then |
| 22:24.59 | Lunessa | So, you're still procrastinating? |
| 22:25.04 | cog|work | yup |
| 22:25.10 | |Jelly| | Well cog, it's time to poop, so to speak! :P |
| 22:25.10 | Lunessa | Ok. |
| 22:25.18 | cog|work | My newfound </3 for wow should help though :P |
| 22:26.04 | tekkub | s/wow/Blizzard legal/ |
| 22:27.29 | Shefki | |Jelly|: what's moving to California got to do with it. |
| 22:28.14 | |Jelly| | Cause he's in California |
| 22:29.21 | cog|work | my guess is he wants to mooch free legal services from me ;) |
| 22:29.45 | |Jelly| | Considering some of our PM conversations, I don't think you'd be completely against it. :P |
| 22:29.57 | cog|work | :P |
| 22:30.01 | |Jelly| | *hug* |
| 22:30.30 | |Jelly| | Actually, regardless of your status as a student, it would be better than Tejas. |
| 22:31.25 | Lunessa | Now just a cotton-pickin' minute son! Do not impugn the Great State of Texas. |
| 22:32.16 | cog|work | the parts that attract all the tech jobs are more like CA than some parts of CA imo |
| 22:32.36 | cog|work | s/earthquakes/hurricanes/ |
| 22:32.48 | Jamash | I'll take earthquakes. |
| 22:33.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Drool (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk) |
| 22:39.31 | TC-Away | just dont live on a fault and it's not bad |
| 22:48.44 | cog|work | none of the places not on a fault are worth living, imo |
| 22:49.20 | kamdis | aye |
| 22:50.41 | Vonhinten | Anyone use be.imba or wow-heroes scores as requirements to raid in your guild? and if so, what are you using for Ulduar? |
| 22:50.58 | selckin | that'd be stupid |
| 22:51.03 | End | I don't use the scores, but I look at the analysisesors |
| 22:52.00 | Vonhinten | I don't think it's totally without merit selckin, but thanks for calling me and my guild stupid |
| 22:52.18 | selckin | you're welcome |
| 22:52.23 | selckin | completely free too |
| 22:52.34 | Vonhinten | I'd say I got ripped off |
| 22:52.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Exawatt (n=chatzill@c-68-32-185-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 22:52.41 | *** join/#wowuidev SunTiger (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 22:53.23 | mikma | http://fukung.net/v/10936/1d0d6d6d3210ddc28618fa1159d4eafb.gif |
| 22:56.04 | NeoTron | Vonhinten: seems rather arbitrary |
| 22:56.27 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 22:56.46 | Vonhinten | It is arbitrary, it's a guideline |
| 22:56.46 | bleeter | WTB: [Tuller] so I can /beg for b2a filter for combuctor |
| 22:59.19 | *** part/#wowuidev alestane (n=nevin@c-76-24-240-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 22:59.24 | Shefki | b2a? |
| 22:59.53 | bleeter | wow-heroes has it's uses 'wut you want to share 25 runs with us? wowheroes sez 'u all go do moar heroics comeback l8r' |
| 22:59.57 | bleeter | Shefki: bind to account |
| 23:00.35 | selckin | i'd take a person in greens that doesn't stand in fire any day over a drama queen in tier 12 |
| 23:00.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-55-113.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 23:01.24 | Shefki | Bring the player not the gear. |
| 23:01.39 | bleeter | bring the person who groks that positive is right |
| 23:01.41 | End | yeah, you have the means to gear up a player |
| 23:01.46 | End | changing attitude is harder |
| 23:01.48 | kamdis | be.imba is alright, though it annoys me that my sigil is listed as a low level item when it's BiS for my spec. |
| 23:01.53 | End | (or adding skill) |
| 23:01.55 | Lunessa | selckin: So, I'm out then. I'm totally the prima donna. Bish. |
| 23:02.15 | End | kamdis: yeah, you have to watch out for that in a few places |
| 23:02.15 | bleeter | Lunessa: oO yer in my books 'coz yer prima donna :P |
| 23:02.30 | kamdis | you have to be able to account for stuff like that instead of just looking at random website's "score" when using it as a factor, imo. |
| 23:02.41 | Lunessa | pours a little o the irish in bleeter's coffee. |
| 23:02.49 | bleeter | as with all stat gathering, imba and heroes good for quick glance stuff, devil always in detail |
| 23:03.00 | selckin | just have your other players of the same class look see if his spec/gear choices aren't stupid |
| 23:03.06 | selckin | some random number will never get it right |
| 23:03.10 | Lunessa | I like to use them for a guideline, but not a hard and fast rule. |
| 23:03.24 | bleeter | i like hard and fast rules |
| 23:03.37 | Vonhinten | our imba and wow-heroes scores are intended to be a minimum requirement for people who are not skilled. |
| 23:03.59 | NeoTron | Vonhinten: we prefer to get people that are skilled and gear them up if needed, but that's just me :) |
| 23:04.07 | Lunessa | For example, I'd take cog as a DPS warrior any day - because I'd rather have him on a raid and have fun, even if he's still in quest greens and blues. |
| 23:04.11 | kamdis | Yeah, that's what we do also, NeoTron. |
| 23:04.14 | Kalroth | If the blue bar isn't all the way to the right, then you're just not trying hard enough! |
| 23:04.22 | Vonhinten | well, if you can find a well to tell someone's wife or uncle that they can't come... |
| 23:04.26 | *** join/#wowuidev obrien|work (n=tucows@216.174.162.6) |
| 23:04.55 | Lunessa | Vonhinten: I learned the hard way, you just tell them... "Sorry, you can't come." |
| 23:05.09 | Vonhinten | at a certain gear level, even not great players can contribute |
| 23:05.09 | bleeter | 'need to floss my rabbit' |
| 23:05.14 | Vonhinten | that's the gear level I'm looking for |
| 23:05.19 | kamdis | i can understand having minimum requirements. I'm just not sure a gear score is the way to do it. Then again, it's no less random than hp/power and other stat requirements. |
| 23:05.22 | Lunessa | Doing anything else means the people who get sick of carrying them go off to another raid group. |
| 23:05.24 | bleeter | 'brb coffee'... d/c |
| 23:05.49 | kamdis | lol bleeter |
| 23:06.02 | kamdis | So, that's why that keeps happening in my 5 mans! |
| 23:06.04 | kamdis | jk |
| 23:06.21 | bleeter | my fave when I played mage AQ 'lemme open portal to IF so we can all go repair' 'oops i teleported oh well cyas' |
| 23:06.32 | kamdis | ha |
| 23:06.33 | Vonhinten | Lunessa, well, my guild is quite resilient... it's a gaming guild that's been around for a decade. People don't often break off and do their own thing |
| 23:06.53 | selckin | then you definitly want to recruit on person and gear score |
| 23:06.57 | selckin | *and not |
| 23:07.18 | Lunessa | Vonhinten: I've been doing the guild leader thing about that long, and what I've found is... You have to suck it up and say to people, "Sorry - you're not ready for this stuff." |
| 23:07.23 | NeoTron | mind you it's a good way to quickly evalate their gear |
| 23:07.32 | NeoTron | and to see if they know wtf they are doing with their gem and gear choices |
| 23:07.44 | NeoTron | but having a "ok you need ore than X points at imba" is a bit silly |
| 23:07.57 | kamdis | We try to make room for 1-2 new people, or alts on each run of farm content. |
| 23:08.09 | kamdis | Once we can carry some. |
| 23:08.09 | selckin | it's telling me to upgrade 2 enchants, which are the best you can get |
| 23:08.09 | NeoTron | Lunessa: and the worst case: sorry you're not the level of player we're looking for |
| 23:08.15 | selckin | so whatever, they fail |
| 23:10.00 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@resnet-129-116-62-228.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 23:16.13 | Lunessa | NeoTron: yes! |
| 23:18.02 | NeoTron | managing people is hard mode |
| 23:19.09 | bleeter | *herding cats |
| 23:20.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@WoWUIDev/WoWIStaff/Norganna/StatisticalEngineer/Shirik) |
| 23:20.05 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 23:20.56 | NightHawkTheSane | http://www.reallybadparentingadvice.com/ |
| 23:21.33 | mikma | cairenn|afk: http://media.fukung.net/images/11985/99-100-kitteh-pushupz-maikz-kitteh-musselz.jpg |
| 23:24.28 | *** join/#wowuidev ajmitch (n=ajmitch@172.41.255.123.static.snap.net.nz) |
| 23:24.29 | End | lol http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36812 |
| 23:24.46 | End | that really grinds my gears! |
| 23:25.17 | mikma | cairenn|afk: http://media.fukung.net/images/13944/doogy.jpg |
| 23:27.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@host217-43-240-104.range217-43.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:29.16 | selckin | i wonder if 10years from now we'll go "remember those lolcats and dogs?", or "check this link ..." |
| 23:29.48 | mikma | no |
| 23:29.54 | *** join/#wowuidev norova (n=norova@c-98-215-162-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 23:30.02 | Lunessa | AFK Dinner |
| 23:36.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Rottenpotato (n=corey@wnpgmb014vw-ad05-50-35.dynamic.mts.net) |
| 23:37.49 | mikma | its cool how people see the unrelated stuff in pictures: http://media.fukung.net/images/13675/batplan.jpg |
| 23:38.22 | ScytheBlade1 | old |
| 23:38.49 | mikma | no u |
| 23:40.26 | Rottenpotato | does anyone know of a simple mod that interacts p2p |
| 23:40.31 | Rottenpotato | something like a hold'em game or blackjack |
| 23:41.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Aeyan| (n=pancake@cpe-071-076-230-073.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 23:42.06 | Rottenpotato | need something simple to start learning lua off of |
| 23:42.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (n=chatzill@pool-173-52-187-170.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 23:43.09 | Kraps | holy addons batman, carbonite lives! |
| 23:45.25 | *** join/#wowuidev WobWork (n=Wobin@203-206-178-228.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:46.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Soulsbane (n=chatzill@174.32.26.128) |
| 23:50.37 | *** join/#wowuidev malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-177-118-15.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 23:51.29 | Exawatt | Is there a way to change the maxValue attribute of a StatusBar in Lua? |
| 23:52.03 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@c-68-62-175-169.hsd1.al.comcast.net) |
| 23:52.03 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 23:52.21 | NightHawkTheSane | http://www.wowwiki.com/ |
| 23:52.28 | ScytheBlade1 | holy crap this computer is fast |
| 23:52.30 | ScytheBlade1 | i7 f t w |
| 23:52.44 | Thunder_Child | not fast enough ScytheBlade1 |
| 23:52.53 | ScytheBlade1 | I dunno, it is pretty fast |
| 23:53.03 | ScytheBlade1 | 6GB of RAM in tri-channel |
| 23:53.16 | ScytheBlade1 | And 8 'cores' in task manager (4 real, 4 HT) |
| 23:53.45 | NeoTron | as a note - by defauly WoW will use cpu 0 and 1 |
| 23:53.48 | NeoTron | which in fact is the same core |
| 23:54.58 | NeoTron | SET processAffinityMask "5" in config.wtf makes it use core 1 and 3 |
| 23:55.15 | NeoTron | SET processAffinityMask "15" makes it use 1, 2, 3 and 4 |
| 23:55.16 | ScytheBlade1 | lol, I didn't know it had that cvar |
| 23:55.26 | NeoTron | I guessed you didn't :) |
| 23:55.30 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah I am familiar with how a mask works ;) |
| 23:55.34 | ScytheBlade1 | On the other hand though |
| 23:55.41 | ScytheBlade1 | My WoW accounts are dead and will be for quite some time |
| 23:55.42 | ScytheBlade1 | So meh |
| 23:57.30 | Rottenpotato | is there an environment out there that allows the loading of addons sans WoW ? |
| 23:57.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Not really |
| 23:57.53 | Rottenpotato | k |
| 23:58.04 | Rottenpotato | that's going to be annoying |
| 23:58.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Technically WoWBench exists but sadly it never amounted to something that really *worked* |
| 23:58.27 | Rottenpotato | so basically |
| 23:58.32 | Rottenpotato | *fix code* |
| 23:58.34 | Rottenpotato | load wow |
| 23:58.39 | Rottenpotato | *curse* |
| 23:58.41 | Rottenpotato | fix code, repeat |
| 23:58.42 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 23:58.47 | ScytheBlade1 | You can /console reloadui |
| 23:58.54 | Rottenpotato | ah |
| 23:58.57 | NightHawkTheSane | but still, more or less, y es :P |
| 23:59.04 | Rottenpotato | wasn't s ure if it had to be started from scratch each time |
| 23:59.11 | Rottenpotato | that's not as bad then |
| 23:59.22 | ScytheBlade1 | There are two things that make you restart WoW entirely |
| 23:59.25 | NightHawkTheSane | no, you really only need to restart wow if you add/remove files, or i think change the toc |
| 23:59.26 | ScytheBlade1 | 1) Changing your ToC |
| 23:59.36 | ScytheBlade1 | 2) Adding and removing files |
| 23:59.39 | Rottenpotato | nod |
| 23:59.41 | ScytheBlade1 | And NHTS won there |
| 23:59.49 | NightHawkTheSane | ;) |
| 23:59.55 | ScytheBlade1 | But lua/xml changes |
| 23:59.58 | ScytheBlade1 | You can just reload the UI |
