| 00:00.17 | ScytheBlade1 | site-local address |
| 00:00.24 | ScytheBlade1 | ::c is a common broadcast |
| 00:00.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Osagasu (n=Dune@208-104-142-238.rhhe1.2wcm.comporium.net) |
| 00:00.56 | Mike-N-Go | I ask my question because it seems like BINDING_NAME_ vars. |
| 00:00.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Mikk (n=mike@81-233-236-26-no19.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 00:01.31 | Iriel | I dont think it does anything beyond help future developers |
| 00:01.57 | ScytheBlade1 | ::a, ::b, and ::c are commonly used as DNS serves in stateless IPv6 autoconfig situations |
| 00:02.27 | Shirik | ah that makes sense then |
| 00:02.28 | NightHawkTheSane | random question: If I have the autoloot setting enabled, is there any way for a mod to force it to 'skip' looting certain items? or would that only work by turning autoloot off and having the mod loot the other items? |
| 00:02.28 | Jinivus | Question: Whats the easiest way to convert a string(eg: "5:12:34") to number of seconds? |
| 00:02.44 | ScytheBlade1 | afk a bit |
| 00:04.13 | *** join/#wowuidev quoin (n=quoin@219-90-170-196.ip.adam.com.au) |
| 00:08.03 | Shirik | ~dns 74.86.231.161 |
| 00:08.10 | Shirik | oh |
| 00:08.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Drophole (n=Redguard@108.177.121.70.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 00:09.08 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (n=nevin@c-76-24-240-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 00:09.08 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 00:09.49 | bleeter | NightHawkTheSane: the latter, I believe |
| 00:09.51 | Hjalte | NightHawkTheSane: I know Karni's Crap Filter works like the last way you're saing. |
| 00:10.17 | bleeter | ie, over-ride the default autoloot behaviour by turning it off and using your own |
| 00:10.25 | NightHawkTheSane | thanks :) |
| 00:21.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Why am I dead on a live realm... |
| 00:21.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh, that's what I get for afking next to mobs |
| 00:23.22 | Tekkub | http://www.tekkub.net/tg/a/01_11_Dun_Morogh.html |
| 00:23.25 | Tekkub | HUZZAH! |
| 00:23.43 | Tekkub | last thing to do, the base index page |
| 00:24.10 | NightHawkTheSane | thats pretty neat |
| 00:27.05 | jaxdahl | anyone here have a 80 priest on lich king? |
| 00:27.09 | jaxdahl | alliance side |
| 00:27.42 | p3lim | very nice tekkub |
| 00:29.34 | AnduinLothar | what's the difference between a ! and a ? in that list? looks liek duplicates |
| 00:30.35 | ScytheBlade1 | haha @ "Hosted by the screwballs at WoW Interface " |
| 00:30.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Classy |
| 00:30.48 | NightHawkTheSane | AnduinLothar: accept/turn in? |
| 00:30.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Whoa, now that I read that over |
| 00:31.01 | ScytheBlade1 | That's awesome |
| 00:31.13 | AnduinLothar | oh is this an order you're sposed to go in or somehting? |
| 00:31.31 | NightHawkTheSane | indeed |
| 00:31.35 | AnduinLothar | ahh |
| 00:32.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Tekkub: that all going to be static all the time, or will users be able to interact with it? |
| 00:32.32 | Tekkub | static, updated any time I push out a new version |
| 00:32.37 | AnduinLothar | optimized leveling? or is it 'this is how you do ALL the quests'? |
| 00:32.42 | ScytheBlade1 | optimized leveling |
| 00:33.05 | ScytheBlade1 | Tekkub: long term suggestion: let users upload a .lua containing their zone progress, and have it mark off what's been done/etc |
| 00:33.38 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse_ (n=chatzill@58.217.206.220) |
| 00:39.44 | bleeter | RAAR |
| 00:40.17 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: you rage a lot |
| 00:41.21 | bleeter | ScytheBlade1: 'No one was ever sure whether the spites with which Bleeter armed his volatile senibilities were activated by a savage insensitivity, or by the holy egoism of genius.' |
| 00:47.02 | bleeter | ScytheBlade1: to be sure, I was more enraged at the response 'just one realm or all oceanics?' i was all 'wtf look yer lazy ass self!' |
| 00:47.59 | kd3 | holy hell faceless ones underneath icecrown |
| 00:49.56 | Neuro_Medivh | that's nothing, kd3 |
| 00:50.04 | Neuro_Medivh | wait till you meet Matthias |
| 00:50.19 | kd3 | ya. I'm about to return to the surface |
| 00:53.27 | Tekkub | ScytheBlade1, no plans, no |
| 00:53.39 | Tekkub | this is supplemental to using the addon, that's all |
| 00:57.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (n=chatzill@pool-96-246-12-4.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:59.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Syzgyn (n=no@24-240-17-145.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com) |
| 01:03.13 | Neuro_Medivh | lol, just saw the Wrathgate cinematic.. that was cool |
| 01:04.37 | Syzgyn | Yep yep |
| 01:04.49 | Neuro_Medivh | but it makes me wonder, why does ANYONE ever trust the Forsaken? |
| 01:05.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Really tempted to not do Icecrown at all |
| 01:05.27 | ScytheBlade1 | But along the same lines, getting into alpha for the next beta would be great >_> |
| 01:06.14 | Syzgyn | lol |
| 01:06.29 | ScytheBlade1 | s/beta/expansion/ |
| 01:06.44 | NightHawkTheSane | ScytheBlade1: .. the two are correlated? |
| 01:06.53 | ScytheBlade1 | NightHawkTheSane: the feedback you provide is |
| 01:07.03 | ScytheBlade1 | Pull your weight, tada |
| 01:07.12 | NightHawkTheSane | well i had assumed |
| 01:07.23 | ScytheBlade1 | It's what is considered an incredibly safe assumption |
| 01:07.35 | Neuro_Medivh | ScytheBlade1, why does it matter when you find out? That's like not wanting to go to a special preview screening of a movie because it will spoil the release |
| 01:07.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Neuro_Medivh: because *shrug* |
| 01:08.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Same reason I haven't touched the 5 mans, I want to see it with a group of friends that I've played with for years |
| 01:08.15 | Neuro_Medivh | I can understand not wanting to know ABOUT the zone |
| 01:08.23 | ScytheBlade1 | And work together when no one has seen any of it |
| 01:08.46 | Neuro_Medivh | ahh... well, I have no friends and hate everyone, so screw em! =) |
| 01:09.18 | Neuro_Medivh | I'll say this, I'm glad I didn't watch that cinematic outside of the game... much cooler when you see it in context |
| 01:09.36 | ScytheBlade1 | I had already done that questline, so I knew the context |
| 01:10.48 | selckin | i'm going for loremaster achievement, did all quests i can find, recopied to beta, and i'm 700/700, 679/730 (iirc) |
| 01:10.59 | selckin | went to every zone again |
| 01:11.04 | selckin | really can't find 50+ quests anywhere |
| 01:11.09 | selckin | : |
| 01:11.11 | selckin | :( |
| 01:11.21 | Neuro_Medivh | which zone, selc? |
| 01:11.28 | selckin | kalimdor |
| 01:12.38 | selckin | which it would tell me some subzone numbers :\ |
| 01:14.55 | selckin | http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21248 you recon those would could? |
| 01:18.14 | Corrodias | reconnoiter |
| 01:32.16 | Mike-N-Go | Can someone explain the use of 'this' and 'self' in .lua files? |
| 01:32.53 | Corrodias | nobody can. |
| 01:32.57 | ScytheBlade1 | this is a global |
| 01:33.06 | ScytheBlade1 | it refers to the frame that is being called when an event happens |
| 01:33.07 | Mike-N-Go | s/can/may/ |
| 01:33.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Likewise it's available everywhere |
| 01:33.34 | ScytheBlade1 | 'self' is NOT a global, and is only available if your OnEvent function defines it in the args (or you use the XML) |
| 01:34.20 | ScytheBlade1 | 'self' is also the frame that registered the event like 'this' but differs in being (1) a local not a global and (2) only exists if you tell it to in the arguments |
| 01:34.24 | ScytheBlade1 | That's about it |
| 01:35.36 | Iriel | 'this' is also going away, eventually |
| 01:35.43 | Iriel | whereas 'self' is here tp stay |
| 01:36.00 | Iriel | tO stay |
| 01:36.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Third try..? ;) |
| 01:39.21 | Neuro_Medivh | this=old and busted. self=new hotness |
| 01:40.13 | ccox | ^^ = old and busted |
| 01:40.31 | ccox | :-P |
| 01:41.56 | Mike-N-Go | ScytheBlade1: I see some people refer to their functions like TourGuide:someFunction(), how do I set that up? |
| 01:42.12 | *** join/#wowuidev IdentifyTarget (n=Identify@241.23.119.70.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 01:42.33 | cbreak | just put the function into a table |
| 01:42.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Mike-N-Go: TourGuide is a defined table in the addon, nothing more. |
| 01:42.41 | cbreak | and expect that same table as first argument |
| 01:43.51 | ScytheBlade1 | lua> TourGuide = { ["someFunc"] = function(arg1, arg2) ChatFrame1:AddMessage(arg1) end} TourGuide:someFunc("a") |
| 01:43.52 | lua_bot | ScytheBlade1: luabot:1: attempt to index global 'ChatFrame1' (a nil value) |
| 01:44.00 | ScytheBlade1 | lua> TourGuide = { ["someFunc"] = function(arg1, arg2) print(arg1) end} TourGuide:someFunc("a") |
| 01:44.01 | lua_bot | ScytheBlade1: table: 0x8082c28 |
| 01:44.12 | ScytheBlade1 | I broke that a bit but not much |
| 01:48.31 | Neuro_Medivh | anyone done any wotlk alchemy? |
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| 02:12.19 | smcn | a little, i'm just over 400 |
| 02:12.37 | smcn | wow that was 24 minutes ago |
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| 02:37.18 | sacarasc | multi-joshbork |
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| 02:41.02 | ReAn | http://failblog.org/2008/10/05/science-fail/ |
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| 03:18.02 | Mike-N-Go | Here is AdMod.lua, http://wowuidev.pastey.net/97585, all that is left is to change the chat channel and a few things... like write the documentation. I think it is about ready. Might you see any optimizations I should make? Or anything else that you would recommend I change? |
| 03:28.53 | Shirik | whooooooooooooooo |
| 03:28.56 | Shirik | server first kill!! |
| 03:29.43 | Syzgyn | Shirik: Of what? |
| 03:29.54 | Shirik | C'Thun |
| 03:29.55 | Shirik | lol |
| 03:29.58 | Syzgyn | Hahaha |
| 03:32.05 | Syzgyn | Mike-N-Go: I'd say having your mod advertise itself with each message is a bad idea |
| 03:32.34 | Mike-N-Go | Huh? |
| 03:33.26 | Syzgyn | Nevermind, I was looking at AdModPrint() |
| 03:35.13 | Cairenn | Sargeras: Dolby is a big meanie! Beat him up for me! |
| 03:36.19 | *** join/#wowuidev JoshBork2 (n=Josh@WoWUIDev/WoWInterface/LegoBlock/joshborke) |
| 03:38.56 | Mike-N-Go | Syzgyn: What else did you think of my code? |
| 03:39.12 | Syzgyn | I cant look too close, I'm tanking in BT :P |
| 03:39.21 | Mike-N-Go | =] |
| 03:39.25 | Syzgyn | nothing glaringly wrong that I saw though |
| 03:40.31 | Mike-N-Go | Great. I just need to add some polish, and some docs, and I can push the new version out soon. |
| 03:45.17 | Sixen | ~irc |
| 03:45.18 | purl | "Welcome to IRC: where the men are boys, the women are boys, and 14-year-old girls are FBI agents." |
| 03:52.11 | digmouse | ~purl |
| 03:52.12 | purl | ACTION coughs up a hairball |
| 03:52.20 | jaxdahl | tem, i'm up to 29k hp unbuffed |
| 03:52.38 | Tem | nice |
| 03:52.49 | Tem | I think I'm only at 25k unbuffed |
| 03:52.52 | jaxdahl | also 79.1% avoidance on patchwerk |
| 03:52.57 | kd3 | yay fark: [Stupid] I would like a layover in Denver, a near miss in Miami, a meal in Minneapolis, and a cancellation in Toledo. Oh, and can I get my bags lost somewhere over North Dakota? Thanks |
| 03:53.02 | jaxdahl | http://jax2.zenblue.net/sws5/sws-patchwerk-1223241809/index.html |
| 03:53.02 | Tem | but then I'm not allowed to roll on tank gear in my group |
| 03:53.05 | Tem | *sigh* |
| 03:53.28 | jaxdahl | rune strike hits for a crazy amount now |
| 03:53.35 | jaxdahl | avg crit 6180 |
| 03:53.55 | digmouse | ........ ice tough, now rune strike, and what's next? |
| 03:54.18 | jaxdahl | icy touch got nerfed a little bit |
| 03:54.25 | jaxdahl | it's fun to see the 12k howling blasts on thaddius |
| 03:54.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (n=Arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 03:54.50 | jaxdahl | 13969 max on thaddius |
| 03:54.57 | digmouse | DK gets one OP skill at each build and get nerfed on next |
| 03:58.40 | *** join/#wowuidev quoin (n=quoin@219-90-170-196.ip.adam.com.au) |
| 04:00.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@222-152-8-242.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
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| 04:08.01 | Tekkub | ALL DONED! |
| 04:08.01 | Tekkub | http://tekkub.net/tg |
| 04:09.07 | Syzgyn | Liek zomg |
| 04:10.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Pazza_ (n=john@cpe-68-173-188-62.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 04:10.11 | Syzgyn | I think I'm gonna start visiting facebook in Lynx |
| 04:10.22 | Syzgyn | The new layout is hella slow in opera |
| 04:10.31 | NightHawkTheSane | *blink* |
| 04:10.31 | NightHawkTheSane | http://community.livejournal.com/can_i_eat_this/ |
| 04:10.54 | ccox | Tekkub - looks nice, next time I start an alt from scratch, I'll have to give it a try |
| 04:11.19 | Tekkub | ccox, use the addon :P |
| 04:11.34 | Tekkub | and you dont' have to start from scratch, just mark off the shit you've done |
| 04:11.37 | ccox | that's what I meant :-P |
| 04:12.56 | Thelyna | is it worth trying to do a no-collection easy-duo quest set for RAF people? or does that fall into the realm of "a lot of work for not very many people?" |
| 04:14.42 | Syzgyn | WTB API for checking if you've done a quest before :( |
| 04:20.33 | Thunder_Child | Shirik, yes cameras indeed, Iriel will have his for sure and to Seerah and Cairenn and Lope (whever she may be) taking pictures of the ladies is not our overriding concern |
| 04:20.55 | Shirik | taking pictures of the men? |
| 04:21.00 | Seerah | TC: I don't care about pics |
| 04:21.02 | Thunder_Child | the event dummy |
| 04:21.07 | Seerah | haha |
| 04:21.16 | Thelyna | http://www.wowwiki.com/API_CanSummonFriend ... is there no API for accepting a summons? |
| 04:21.17 | Thunder_Child | Seerah, i dunno, all i saw was that you were in the conversation |
| 04:21.25 | Seerah | but my hubby is like Cairenn, so he'll take my place in the corner with the ladies |
| 04:21.26 | Thelyna | (RAF summons that is) |
| 04:21.30 | Cairenn | heh |
| 04:21.33 | Seerah | they just lumped me in |
| 04:21.36 | Mike-N-Go | Tekkub: Nice. |
| 04:21.45 | Yssaril | Tekkub: nice |
| 04:22.13 | Mike-N-Go | Thelyna: It is my guess that it is just like a normal summon, though I do not have a friend to test it with. |
| 04:22.27 | Yssaril | Tekkub: how much of 70-80 is done? |
| 04:23.04 | Mike-N-Go | Syzgyn: Get EveryQuest. |
| 04:23.25 | Tekkub | ally fjord and borean |
| 04:23.30 | Thunder_Child | Thelyna, when i read that at first i read it as "AP_ICanHasFriend" i blame thoughts like that on Cairenn |
| 04:23.38 | Tekkub | I have data for all of horde |
| 04:23.44 | Syzgyn | Mike-N-Go: That tells me what quests I've already completed? |
| 04:24.13 | Mike-N-Go | The problem though is it will not know what quests you have done if you did them before you had the addon; I believe you have to manually declare your completion with those quests. |
| 04:24.27 | Syzgyn | Right |
| 04:24.39 | Mike-N-Go | Syzgyn: But otherwise, if you do a quest with the addon, it will log it as done. |
| 04:24.39 | Neuro_Medivh | Tekkub, I just finished all the non-group quests in Icecrown, I can mail you that raw data |
| 04:24.43 | Syzgyn | an API call would make it much easier :P |
| 04:24.59 | Neuro_Medivh | tekkub@gmail.com correct? |
| 04:25.13 | Tekkub | no rush, I'm not really poking at the user-submitted data yet |
| 04:25.20 | Mike-N-Go | I do not know of one. It would be cool if one could check completion on quests with a call and the quest ID. |
| 04:25.29 | Syzgyn | or a mod that detected if there were any quests available when you talked to known quest givers, and automatically checked those quests as completed |
| 04:25.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Cide (n=Cide@hus110a.bobbnet.com) |
| 04:25.36 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 04:25.40 | Shirik | ~tackle Cide |
| 04:25.40 | purl | ACTION tackles Cide to the ground. |
| 04:25.56 | Syzgyn | There isnt one, thus the WTB |
| 04:26.03 | Cide | hi |
| 04:26.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Pazza_ (n=john@cpe-68-173-188-62.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 04:29.08 | Tekkub | thanks Neuro_Medivh |
| 04:30.08 | Thelyna | never mind, I should check things before opening my gob |
| 04:30.32 | Thelyna | turns out a RAF summon is exactly the same as a warlock/stone summon, ConfirmSummon() works |
| 04:30.45 | Neuro_Medivh | I hope there aren't this many DKs in release... seems like half the lvl 80s are Death Knights |
| 04:31.02 | Thelyna | there won't be that many, there'll be more |
| 04:31.05 | Tekkub | nothing wrong with that |
| 04:31.19 | Tekkub | any DK that "can't tank" needs to be banned though |
| 04:31.29 | Neuro_Medivh | every group is "need healer for XXX" |
| 04:31.33 | Neuro_Medivh | no tank, no dps |
| 04:31.37 | Tekkub | heh |
| 04:31.44 | Mike-N-Go | ~seen Crunch |
| 04:31.46 | purl | crunch <n=Crunch@221.84.252.216.dsl1.colba.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #norganna, 653d 20h 18m 32s ago, saying: 'how do you do'. |
| 04:31.50 | Tekkub | so I might be able to play at 80, unlike when I was at 70? |
| 04:31.59 | Neuro_Medivh | you a healer? |
| 04:32.04 | Mike-N-Go | I wonder if Crunch is still around? |
| 04:32.07 | Tekkub | ga |
| 04:32.10 | Tekkub | *da |
| 04:32.14 | Neuro_Medivh | then you're in like swimwear |
| 04:32.45 | Tekkub | huh? |
| 04:32.45 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: it's the newness factor, it'll wear off |
| 04:32.58 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: but when LK hits the shelves, you'll see LOTS of DKs |
| 04:33.01 | Tekkub | it'll balance out in the end |
| 04:33.09 | Tekkub | some DKs that can't tank will learn |
| 04:33.12 | Neuro_Medivh | I think in release, people will focus on their 70s |
| 04:33.21 | ccox | Tekkub: and groups always need healers |
| 04:33.24 | Neuro_Medivh | most people will do a DK after getting their main to 80 |
| 04:33.35 | Tekkub | those that don't will go back to their mains or become "second class citizens" (DPS) |
| 04:33.48 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: I'll do it at the same time, so I get rested XP on both |
| 04:33.57 | Neuro_Medivh | of course, any brand new server will be stuffed to the gills with DKs =) |
| 04:33.58 | *** join/#wowuidev ian_` (n=ian@blk-103-247-143.eastlink.ca) |
| 04:34.15 | Tekkub | persoanlly, I'm more likely to go DK for a short time after release until the NR starter zones have calmed down |
| 04:34.24 | Tekkub | then I'll switch to my 70's |
| 04:34.31 | Neuro_Medivh | have you played a DK at all? |
| 04:34.50 | Tekkub | gee no |
| 04:34.59 | Tekkub | only ran out of char slots |
| 04:35.00 | Tekkub | :P |
| 04:35.18 | Mike-N-Go | Tekkub: Good reason to not start a DK |
| 04:35.28 | Tekkub | Mike-N-Go, huh? |
| 04:35.39 | Neuro_Medivh | I'm just asking... If you hadn't played one, and were gonna try one out in LK, you might decide to stick with it... they're lots of fun |
| 04:35.57 | Tekkub | I will take a DK to 80, but it's not high on my list |
| 04:35.57 | Mike-N-Go | You said you will not make a DK because you have 10 chars on your main server, how I understood you. |
| 04:36.12 | Tekkub | Mike-N-Go, lern2sarcasm |
| 04:36.19 | Tekkub | I have like 6 DKs on beta |
| 04:36.23 | Mike-N-Go | Tekkub: Right back at you. |
| 04:36.24 | Neuro_Medivh | ok |
| 04:36.24 | Tekkub | I have no space left |
| 04:36.34 | Mike-N-Go | The learn part. |
| 04:36.41 | Tekkub | no u |
| 04:36.45 | Neuro_Medivh | Mike, be nice to tekkub, or you gets no bacon! |
| 04:36.58 | Mike-N-Go | NOOOOOOOOO!! Me need bacon! |
| 04:37.24 | Neuro_Medivh | hmm, it was just a joke, but now I'm thinking "Damn, some bacon would taste GREAT right now" |
| 04:37.42 | ccox | mmmmmmm, bacon.... |
| 04:37.45 | Tekkub | bacon makes everything better |
| 04:37.56 | Thunder_Child | ~hate bacon |
| 04:37.57 | purl | Hey thunder_child, ,,|, |
| 04:38.50 | Neuro_Medivh | another neat xkcd |
| 04:39.34 | Tekkub | *sigh* anyone on beta got NR herbs they'll part with for NOT rediculous prices |
| 04:39.39 | Tekkub | like say, 500g/stk |
| 04:39.49 | Tekkub | instead of 5000g/stk |
| 04:40.12 | Neuro_Medivh | shit, I just ground all mine up about an hour ago |
| 04:40.24 | Tekkub | I'll buy pigment too |
| 04:40.33 | Tekkub | just need to test my inscription guide |
| 04:40.36 | Neuro_Medivh | I can mail you the ink |
| 04:40.43 | Neuro_Medivh | ally northrend? |
| 04:40.46 | Tekkub | yea |
| 04:40.49 | Neuro_Medivh | or are you... HORDE? |
| 04:40.57 | Tekkub | I have horde, but no, ally |
| 04:41.26 | Tekkub | oh did they tweak the levels up so you can actually hit 375 with outland herbs now? |
| 04:41.28 | ccox | xkcd - his quark color exchange diagram is misplaced - should be inside the proton |
| 04:41.32 | Tekkub | that pissed me off to no end |
| 04:41.46 | ccox | Tekk - sorry, I'm milling all mine so you'll have enchantrix milling data on day 1 |
| 04:41.54 | ccox | (which is in SVN now, BTW) |
| 04:42.11 | Neuro_Medivh | Yes, they made some changes I believe |
| 04:42.27 | Neuro_Medivh | what's your toon's name, tek? |
| 04:42.40 | ccox | there were also some dead spots (everything goes green) in inscription, they fixed those with the last patch |
| 04:42.52 | Tekkub | Wuffi |
| 04:42.57 | Neuro_Medivh | yeah, 290-300 was friggin horrible |
| 04:43.41 | Thunder_Child | Wuffi? |
| 04:44.23 | ccox | FluffiBunni was taken already |
| 04:45.49 | ccox | sigh. Blizzard changed the wording on half the enchanting spells, I have to work through all of them for Enchantrix-Barker |
| 04:47.01 | ccox | the good news is that I'll be able to enchant my alts gear finally |
| 04:47.07 | *** join/#wowuidev |Yssaril| (n=Yssaril@adsl-99-145-231-186.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 04:55.01 | jaxdahl | what does enchantrix-barker do? |
| 04:55.20 | jaxdahl | you know people can simply link [Enchanting] in trade chat now |
| 04:56.45 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 05:06.07 | Legorol | morning |
| 05:06.35 | Legorol | I'm hoping there are some people around who are intimately familiar with the arena rating system (and personal ratings), because i have some questions :o) |
| 05:06.56 | NightHawkTheSane | have you checked wowwiki? |
| 05:07.04 | Legorol | i'll go do that first, but |
| 05:07.09 | Cide | I wouldn't say intimately... |
| 05:07.18 | Cide | but it depends on what you need |
| 05:07.26 | Legorol | My aim: to undestand how the rating system has historically developed (from S1), what were the issues that each new change was aiming to introduce, and how was it possible to exploit each system |
| 05:07.37 | Legorol | s/introduce/fix/ |
| 05:07.48 | Legorol | i'll start by reading the wiki |
| 05:08.03 | Cide | if you list the changes I can probably recall the exploits :P |
| 05:08.34 | NightHawkTheSane | i think the big change is mainly the addition of personal ratings, and rating requirements on gear |
| 05:09.00 | Cide | personal ratings were added so that you can't sell points as easily |
| 05:09.46 | Cide | don't think rating requirements on gear were meant to fix any exploit, but rather make those pieces of gear more exclusive |
| 05:12.08 | Legorol | All right let's start with basics: |
| 05:12.14 | Legorol | Initially, there was only team rating, nothing more. |
| 05:12.27 | Legorol | There was a team rating -> point conversion (details irrelevant) |
| 05:12.49 | Legorol | What were the potential exploits? |
| 05:13.24 | Cide | people got their team to a high rating, had other people join for gold, and then left the team |
| 05:13.26 | Legorol | a) I understand that you could just join a high rated team, and lose 10 games a week and still get lots of points, as long as other members of the team kept up the high rating |
| 05:13.46 | Cide | the new people played 10 games a week, gaining a fair amount of points with no skill involved |
| 05:13.55 | Legorol | right |
| 05:14.04 | Cide | or what you said. the two are similar |
| 05:14.07 | Legorol | was this taken further by the skilled players remaining on the team and keeping up the rating? |
| 05:14.11 | Legorol | or was that not really done |
| 05:14.14 | Legorol | yes i see the similarity |
| 05:14.30 | Cide | don't think that was as common, but it occurred too I'm sure. I never participated in it so I don't know |
| 05:14.36 | Legorol | ok |
| 05:14.53 | Legorol | All right, next stage: introduction of personal ratings (never mind the reason for introducing them) |
| 05:15.05 | Legorol | First, before we discuss exploits, I need to understand the mechanics fully |
| 05:15.23 | Legorol | If you have team rating T, personal rating P and come up against an opposing team with rating O, |
| 05:15.40 | Legorol | Is your T adjusted by Elo(T,O) and your P by Elo(P,O)? |
| 05:15.50 | Legorol | Where Elo is the Elo-rating calculation function |
| 05:16.18 | Cide | pretty sure personal ratings are not used for elo calculatiosn currently |
| 05:16.27 | Cide | oh, you didn'ts ay they were |
| 05:16.33 | Cide | didn't say they were |
| 05:16.38 | Legorol | personal rating is adjusted by something |
| 05:16.40 | Legorol | it goes up and down |
| 05:16.43 | Cide | aye |
| 05:16.51 | Legorol | so there must be a function to determine how much it should go up and down by when you win/lose |
| 05:16.57 | Cide | I'm not sure if it's Elo(P,O) or Elo(T,O) |
| 05:16.59 | Cide | could be either |
| 05:17.11 | Legorol | In "stage 2", when personal rating was still new, would be nice to know which it was |
| 05:17.19 | Legorol | it can mean quite a lot of difference |
| 05:17.22 | Cide | I'd be inclined to think it's (P,O), since it helps people "get up to speed" |
| 05:17.35 | Cide | otherwise you'd be sitting at a constant difference from the arena rating |
| 05:17.43 | Legorol | I also understand that if you leave a team, your P is set to 1500 again |
| 05:17.46 | Cide | which means it's (P,O), since that's not happening |
| 05:17.50 | Legorol | right |
| 05:18.00 | Cide | your P is local to the arena team, yes |
| 05:18.11 | Legorol | All right, onto exploits then under this system. |
| 05:18.26 | Legorol | I can think of two cases worth considering: high T, low P and low T, high P |
| 05:18.37 | Legorol | which one can be used for what kind of exploits? |
| 05:18.51 | Cide | pretty sure it's mostly the same scenario |
| 05:19.08 | Cide | it's still profitable to buy and sell points |
| 05:19.10 | Legorol | at this point, matching was still done based on T, right? |
| 05:19.19 | Cide | just have to play with 4 good people and the wildcard for some time |
| 05:19.24 | Cide | yes |
| 05:19.36 | Legorol | please elaborate on what you mean by "buying and selling points" |
| 05:19.43 | Legorol | you mean buying/selling spot on a team? |
| 05:19.48 | Cide | essentially |
| 05:19.50 | Cide | the two are the same |
| 05:19.57 | Legorol | also, under stage 2, you'd have to differentiate point purchase and rating purchase |
| 05:20.10 | Cide | in theory |
| 05:20.10 | Legorol | different people might want different thing |
| 05:20.18 | bleeter | side-comment: it's so nice to know that one can completely ignore PvP in Wrath ahead of time ;) :) |
| 05:20.27 | Cide | in practice they are the same |
| 05:20.31 | Legorol | i might have stocked up enough points already, but not have the personal rating |
| 05:20.39 | Legorol | so, let's examine each in turn: |
| 05:20.51 | Legorol | how do i go about getting a high point count, and how do i go about getting a high P? |
| 05:20.58 | Legorol | given that i have gold to spend ;_) |
| 05:21.13 | bleeter | first thing, is not have Oceanic style latency :P |
| 05:21.22 | bleeter | particularly if you're a stealther |
| 05:21.26 | Legorol | for high point count, i guess i can still do what i did under stage 1: buy myself onto a high T team |
| 05:21.31 | kd3 | rofl |
| 05:21.34 | Cide | talk to a team, get invited, play games with them. your P increases, their T hopefully remains about the same |
| 05:21.36 | Legorol | hehe |
| 05:21.55 | Legorol | right, but this now requires me to actually win some games |
| 05:21.58 | Legorol | otherwise my P doesn't increase |
| 05:22.00 | Cide | of course |
| 05:22.13 | Legorol | so it's not a simple matter of buying a high T anymore where the originals leave |
| 05:22.20 | bleeter | kd3: check yer mail, btw. i sent you a small lol |
| 05:22.28 | bleeter | kd3: just too big a lol to fit in here |
| 05:22.32 | Cide | it relies on the fact that the team is good enough to maintain a good rating with 4 good people and 1 wildcard (you) |
| 05:22.42 | Legorol | right |
| 05:22.53 | Legorol | so it's already a shift in paradigm from stage 1 |
| 05:23.06 | Legorol | what about the following: |
| 05:23.17 | Legorol | matching in stage 2 is still based on T,O, so |
| 05:23.25 | Legorol | what if the team deliberately keeps its T low? |
| 05:23.33 | Cide | why would they? |
| 05:23.33 | Legorol | so that you have easy opponents in the hopes of raising your P easier |
| 05:23.47 | Cide | I don't think that's worthwhile |
| 05:24.00 | bleeter | have blizz started inducing latency to arena so people really are on a level playing field? |
| 05:24.00 | Legorol | well you are farming, but you are farming easy targets |
| 05:24.13 | Cide | well |
| 05:24.23 | Legorol | Cide: i'm thinking that a low T, high P scenario is achivable and desirable if you have the time for farming |
| 05:24.25 | Cide | with a loss, if your P is a lot lower than the T, it doesn't decrease very much |
| 05:24.37 | Cide | I don't think it's possible at all |
| 05:24.50 | Cide | P will fluctuate as much as T if they are close to each other |
| 05:24.53 | Drophole | Legorol currently that is not possible |
| 05:24.54 | Legorol | for example: have 2 uber players, and their 2 alts on the team |
| 05:25.03 | Legorol | Drophole: i'm not discussing currently :) |
| 05:25.43 | Cide | P will approach T faster the bigger the difference between T and P |
| 05:25.43 | Legorol | Cide: that's the whole point i'm making |
| 05:25.43 | Drophole | tr must be within 50 points of pr if tr is lower for you to gain points (although a loss can still lose you pr) |
| 05:25.43 | Legorol | under stage 2, you coudl keep T artificially low |
| 05:25.43 | Cide | but then P would be low too |
| 05:25.43 | Legorol | Drophole: i'm not discussing currently :) |
| 05:25.44 | Drophole | i dont care |
| 05:25.48 | Legorol | Cide: not necessarily |
| 05:25.48 | Cide | so be quiet |
| 05:25.51 | Legorol | consider scenario: |
| 05:25.57 | Drophole | discuss currently and figure out how far back it goes |
| 05:26.02 | Cide | no |
| 05:26.03 | Legorol | 2 uber players, with 2 alts on the team |
| 05:26.04 | Cide | shut up |
| 05:26.20 | Legorol | you use the 2 alts to lose lots of games to keep T low |
| 05:26.27 | Legorol | (example is for 2v2 team) |
| 05:26.39 | Legorol | use the 2 mains to keep steamrolling the low O you get matched against |
| 05:26.45 | Legorol | your P goes up by small amounts each time |
| 05:26.52 | Legorol | sounds worthwile to me |
| 05:27.06 | Cide | true. but I disagree still |
| 05:27.08 | Drophole | not really |
| 05:27.15 | Drophole | at some point you will need the tr |
| 05:27.18 | Cide | if you're uber, why waste so much effort? |
| 05:27.23 | Drophole | if you can't sustain the tr, you can't sustain the pr |
| 05:27.25 | Tekkub | my P goes up a bunch all at once, but then goes back down a few min later |
| 05:27.41 | Legorol | Drophole: will you shut up already? We are discussing the historical evolution of the arena system |
| 05:27.54 | Legorol | If you remember what were the exploits people were doing under "stage 2", then you are welcome to contribute |
| 05:28.17 | Legorol | Stage 2 is when personal rating was introduced for the first time |
| 05:28.29 | Legorol | Cide: you might have a point there, but then what were people exploiting in stage 2? |
| 05:28.39 | Cide | high T, high P |
| 05:28.42 | Cide | ==> points |
| 05:28.57 | Legorol | all right, how do you boost someone to high T, high P then? |
| 05:29.05 | Cide | the way I said |
| 05:29.11 | Legorol | same as in stage 1? |
| 05:29.20 | Cide | in N-brackat play, play with N-1 people and you |
| 05:29.22 | Legorol | have a slacker on team and carry them? |
| 05:29.24 | Cide | s/brackat/bracket/ |
| 05:29.48 | Cide | even if T remains largely constant over time, P will approach T |
| 05:29.53 | Legorol | that doesn't sound like an exploit as much as having a kickass team able to win against N with N-1 players |
| 05:30.06 | Drophole | Legorol: duh |
| 05:30.19 | bleeter | I still think it's an exploit that EU/US Arena players have 10-50ms, and we have to put up with 300+ :P |
| 05:30.24 | Legorol | Cide: right, that's because P gain is Elo(P,O) |
| 05:30.28 | Cide | yep |
| 05:30.35 | Cide | you're still paying for it though |
| 05:30.39 | Drophole | bleeter you assume they have 10-50 |
| 05:30.43 | Legorol | with gold of course |
| 05:30.47 | Cide | yes |
| 05:30.48 | Drophole | not many do |
| 05:30.52 | Cide | which blizzard doesn't like |
| 05:31.30 | Cide | I have 10-50 |
| 05:31.32 | bleeter | Drophole: 10-50 is the minimum they'd have, 300 or so is the minimum we get (more like 400-500). Not many aussies get 300ms. |
| 05:31.33 | Legorol | ok i think i get it: so, keep T constant, which pretty much keeps O constant, but because P changes by Elo(P,O), it causes P to converge on T (which is the whole point of Elo) |
| 05:31.51 | bleeter | I |
| 05:31.54 | Cide | yep |
| 05:32.03 | bleeter | I've had to do some major foo with my ISP to get under 270ms |
| 05:32.24 | bleeter | and still, players I pounce on in druid cat form end up stuck to the ground 15 yards away 'out of range' |
| 05:32.29 | Legorol | Cide: there's only one remaining issue |
| 05:32.33 | bleeter | if I get to pounce them at all |
| 05:32.42 | Legorol | i vaguely recall that under stage 2, people were deliberately resetting their P to 1500 |
| 05:32.48 | Legorol | can you think of a reason why/how? |
| 05:32.59 | Legorol | i mean why, not how |
| 05:33.02 | Cide | how is easy :P |
| 05:33.10 | Legorol | yeah *slaps himself* |
| 05:33.30 | *** join/#wowuidev zenzelezz (n=zenzelez@084202219040.customer.alfanett.no) |
| 05:33.31 | Cide | given the system we've discussed I don't see why that would be beneficial |
| 05:33.43 | Cide | I don't see why it would be very detrimental either |
| 05:33.57 | Legorol | indeed, i don't see the point of high T, low P |
| 05:34.08 | Legorol | can we try and find a point in low T, high P then? |
| 05:34.22 | Cide | we already did that discussion I thought |
| 05:34.24 | Legorol | yeah |
| 05:34.27 | Legorol | hmm |
| 05:34.31 | Cide | low T implies low amount of points |
| 05:34.36 | Legorol | i'm vaguely certain that one of those two were happening |
| 05:34.45 | Cide | I don't think P requirements were implemented |
| 05:34.59 | Cide | and if they were, low T high P would probably still be too much effort.. high T high P would be easier |
| 05:35.14 | Legorol | mmm not so sure |
| 05:35.22 | Legorol | bear in mind that around 1500, teams are not representative |
| 05:35.32 | Legorol | there's an entry-spike at 1500 |
| 05:35.40 | Cide | since if you want high P low T, you'd have to consistently be able to steamroll low T-teams... if you took a single loss, P would take huge hit because of Elo(P, O) |
| 05:35.51 | Legorol | by that i mean that there's an unusually large number of teams at 1500 whose actual rating should be below that |
| 05:35.57 | Cide | and if you can extremely consistently streamroll low T-teams, you should be able to get high T anyway |
| 05:36.16 | Legorol | ok i think i found a small counterargument |
| 05:36.19 | Legorol | here is the crux: |
| 05:36.32 | Legorol | you can steamroll a lot of 1500 teams, who have higher than intended T-s |
| 05:36.42 | Legorol | so low T high P where T is kept near 1500 might be worthwhile |
| 05:36.50 | Cide | I don't think so still |
| 05:37.18 | Cide | assuming you want P to end up at 1850 or 2000... that's a lot of games |
| 05:37.23 | Legorol | in fact i'd go as far as to say that on average, 1400 rated teams are harder than 1500 |
| 05:37.46 | Legorol | sure, but we are assuming that we have someone who has tons of time, and wants an easy solution |
| 05:37.53 | Legorol | i.e. "farmmode" |
| 05:37.57 | Cide | it's not an easy solution if it's a viable solution |
| 05:38.17 | Cide | if it's viable in the first place, that means you have an easier solution: just play normally |
| 05:38.18 | Legorol | would be nice to get some authoritative input from experienced arena exploiters ;-) |
| 05:38.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Nargiddley (n=narg@203-97-236-74.cable.telstraclear.net) |
| 05:38.36 | Legorol | i think i disagree there |
| 05:38.53 | Legorol | if you play normally, your T converges to your skill level (let's say 1600 or 1800 or whatever), and so does your P |
| 05:38.58 | Cide | the sheer amount of games you'd require to go from P=1500 to P=1850 or P=2000 means the probability of facing a reroll team or some such is pretty high |
| 05:39.06 | Legorol | but if you keep resetting T to 1500, you keep encountering easier teams than your skill elvel |
| 05:39.10 | Cide | which would affect your P a lot |
| 05:39.27 | Cide | yes, but you'll also face reroll teams now and then |
| 05:39.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Thunder_Child (n=TC@cpe-76-171-31-114.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 05:39.40 | Legorol | all right, so what we are discussing here is basically: |
| 05:39.45 | Cide | you'd easily lose ~30 P every time you'd lose |
| 05:39.49 | Legorol | what's the distribution of intended T-s at 1500 |
| 05:40.05 | Legorol | bear in mind that 1500 is special, and not representative at all |
| 05:40.12 | Legorol | so what we need is the distribution of skill levels of new teams |
| 05:40.32 | Legorol | and whether on the whole you gain or lose more by facing new teams |
| 05:40.45 | Thunder_Child | well that was odd, i had a power surge go through and do nothing but kill my connection....even though the router and modem didnt flicker at all |
| 05:41.07 | Cide | ok |
| 05:41.11 | Legorol | Cide: ok let's move on to stage 3 i think, we got as far as you and I can without further input |
| 05:41.17 | Cide | well |
| 05:41.26 | Cide | let's assume you gain W points every victory against a 1500-T team |
| 05:41.32 | Cide | and you lose L points for every loss |
| 05:41.37 | Legorol | right |
| 05:42.20 | Cide | you'll need to win more than L/W games per victory to achieve a net P increase |
| 05:42.27 | Cide | err |
| 05:42.32 | Cide | you'll need to win more than L/W games per loss |
| 05:43.39 | Legorol | hm, thought just occurred to me: |
| 05:43.55 | Cide | I'd argue that unless your skill level is extremely high, P(Loss) outweighs W/L (if I did that math right) |
| 05:43.57 | Legorol | consider the following |
| 05:44.17 | Cairenn | Mike-N-Go: I presume I can remove it now? |
| 05:44.30 | Legorol | design of Elo: you have a rating R, which is used both for matching and gain/loss, and eventually converges to your true skill level |
| 05:44.30 | Cide | and if your skill level IS extremely high, the solution is not worthwhile |
| 05:44.32 | Mike-N-Go | I am not done yet. |
| 05:44.36 | Mike-N-Go | I have a question. |
| 05:44.48 | Cairenn | care to tell me what you are trying to do? |
| 05:44.51 | Legorol | now consider a team whose actual skill corresponds to rating R |
| 05:45.14 | Legorol | by keeping their T to 1500, they are being matched according to T |
| 05:45.30 | Legorol | if R > T, they are being matched to easier teams than they should |
| 05:45.47 | Mike-N-Go | I am testing the polling system of your forms, for use in the near future. I was curious how your pools worked, so I wanted to test it in the tab that is as close to a sand box as I could get. |
| 05:45.53 | Legorol | which means they are winning more than they should |
| 05:46.07 | Mike-N-Go | My question: Can I edit a poll after I forum it? |
| 05:46.08 | Legorol | I think from this it follows that P will never converge to R, but will always be P > R |
| 05:46.09 | jaxdahl | Tem, ping |
| 05:46.20 | Tem | pong |
| 05:46.21 | Cide | P > R? |
| 05:46.28 | Cide | P > T maybe |
| 05:46.35 | Cide | well, P > T definitely |
| 05:46.45 | jaxdahl | tem, http://jax2.zenblue.net/dk/items.htm |
| 05:46.49 | jaxdahl | up to date gear list |
| 05:46.57 | Legorol | I think with R > T, it results in P > R. but i have to think this through |
| 05:47.08 | jaxdahl | i listed all the tank gear i swap in for different stats/bosses |
| 05:47.20 | jaxdahl | * is the gear i prefer right now and reflects the stats shown |
| 05:47.36 | Cide | well, putting in some example numbers in my equation |
| 05:47.43 | Tem | jaxdahl, is blade barrier not 10% parry? |
| 05:47.51 | Fisker- | keylogger |
| 05:47.53 | Cide | assuming W = 2, L = 30 (should be reasonable if you're approaching say P=1850) |
| 05:47.54 | Cairenn | Mike-N-Go: do you seem to be able to? |
| 05:48.16 | Mike-N-Go | Cairenn, I mean, edit the fields of the poll after I create it. |
| 05:48.18 | Cide | you can at most lose one game every 30/2 = 15 games |
| 05:48.28 | Cairenn | as I said, do you seem to be able to? |
| 05:48.34 | Cide | that means that P(Loss) must be < 1/15 |
| 05:48.35 | Mike-N-Go | Or do I need to make a new poll? |
| 05:48.36 | Cide | following? |
| 05:48.44 | Cairenn | you've got it made ... go try to change something on it |
| 05:48.48 | Mike-N-Go | Not the text of the poll, the poll yourself. |
| 05:48.55 | Cairenn | ^^^ |
| 05:49.01 | Legorol | Cide: yes |
| 05:49.06 | Mike-N-Go | itself* |
| 05:49.22 | Mike-N-Go | Do you understand what I am trying to do? |
| 05:49.31 | jaxdahl | Tem, eh? |
| 05:49.37 | jaxdahl | yes, it is |
| 05:49.41 | Tem | you list blade barrier as 5% |
| 05:49.48 | Cairenn | yeah, you want to change the answer options after you've made them |
| 05:49.50 | Cide | so the question becomes: is your skill level high enough to achieve this win/loss ratio at T=1500? |
| 05:49.59 | Tem | are these all naxx25 drops? |
| 05:49.59 | jaxdahl | updated that part |
| 05:50.02 | jaxdahl | no |
| 05:50.15 | Tem | ooh! I have the same belt as you |
| 05:50.18 | Cairenn | my point still remains though .... you've got it made, can you? |
| 05:50.18 | jaxdahl | some sanctum, some malygos |
| 05:50.20 | Legorol | Cide: actually I just remembered something I read about Elo once, if I remember right |
| 05:50.23 | jaxdahl | some badge |
| 05:50.28 | Mike-N-Go | Is that doable with my account access to the site? I do not see an 'Edit Poll' option. |
| 05:50.37 | Cairenn | there's your answser |
| 05:50.45 | Thunder_Child | she is saying go and try it, if you cant then you cant |
| 05:50.49 | Cide | I'd argue that because of the unrepresentative skill distribution at T=1500, that will be difficult unless the players are very skilled -- in which case it would be easier to just achieve high T and thus high P |
| 05:50.55 | Legorol | Cide: I think in Elo, it doesn't matter what's the rating of the two teams that get matched against each other, even if it's totally dissimilar |
| 05:50.58 | Tem | signet of the impregnable fortress |
| 05:51.01 | Thunder_Child | it seems to be rather self evident |
| 05:51.01 | Tem | gief |
| 05:51.14 | Legorol | in the long run, the formula ensures that you hover around your actual rating |
| 05:51.27 | Tem | sigil of haunted dreams is kind of bad imo |
| 05:51.29 | Cairenn | indeed |
| 05:51.30 | Legorol | it's only Blizzard that tries to match equally rated teams |
| 05:51.37 | Mike-N-Go | Is there a way I can petition for access to change the polling options on an existing poll? |
| 05:51.38 | Legorol | but Elo doesn't require that if i remember right |
| 05:51.41 | jaxdahl | wish list: T7-25 chest/gloves, epic defense trinket.. |
| 05:51.49 | Cide | Legorol: but Elo is normally used for places where you can't reset your rating |
| 05:51.51 | Cairenn | my question to you is ... "why?" |
| 05:51.52 | jaxdahl | tem, what do you suggest i use as a tank? |
| 05:51.55 | Cide | your skill isn't reset |
| 05:51.59 | Cide | Elo should match your skill |
| 05:52.04 | Tem | the pvp one seems better |
| 05:52.13 | jaxdahl | name? |
| 05:52.17 | Tem | don't remember |
| 05:52.17 | Legorol | Cide: right, but resetting T only influences the matchmaker |
| 05:52.21 | Mike-N-Go | Well, I was wanting to run a 'name my mod' poll. |
| 05:52.21 | Legorol | that's the point i just realised |
| 05:52.23 | Tem | plague strike grants AP |
| 05:52.35 | Cide | resetting T influences the point loss for the loser |
| 05:52.40 | Tem | it's still just a threat boost, but at least it's a threat boost somewhere other than haste |
| 05:52.51 | Tem | though, maybe haste is good for tanking because of rune strike |
| 05:52.52 | Cairenn | if people can go in, make a poll, have X, Y and Z as possible choices for people to vote on, then after everyone has voted you change the answers to be A, B or C ... in other words, making it say whatever you want, instead of what people actually answered |
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| 05:52.55 | Legorol | Cide: what I'm trying to say is this: even if resetting wasn't available as an option, |
| 05:53.05 | Legorol | and the matchmaker (due to some fluke) kept matching you to 1500 teams, |
| 05:53.05 | Cide | it's like having two chess champions play against each other, but having the winner be treated as a beginner in Elo |
| 05:53.11 | jaxdahl | well, being able to rune strike more frequently is nice |
| 05:53.12 | Cide | the effects would be devastating for the loser |
| 05:53.13 | Legorol | your P would converge to your actual skill |
| 05:53.20 | jaxdahl | but i do hope they come up with something tailored for tanks |
| 05:53.33 | Cide | Legorol: but that assumes you're actually facing beginners, not half beginners, half champions |
| 05:53.35 | Legorol | Cide: i disagree |
| 05:53.58 | Cide | if you're facing champions disguised as beginners, you wouldn't reach your actual skill |
| 05:53.59 | Legorol | (i disagree about it being devastating for beginners) |
| 05:54.02 | Tem | jaxdahl, agreed |
| 05:54.09 | Cide | it would be devastating for champions |
| 05:54.12 | Mike-N-Go | No, not to do that. If someone wants to add a another thing to vote on with the poll. |
| 05:54.32 | jaxdahl | any ideas, tem? |
| 05:54.33 | Cide | assume champions have a Elo rating equal to about 2000 (making up numbers) |
| 05:54.38 | Tem | on sigils? |
| 05:54.39 | Cide | two 2000-champions face off |
| 05:54.46 | jaxdahl | maybe something that affects rune strike |
| 05:54.56 | Legorol | Cide: right i see the point |
| 05:55.11 | Cide | if the winner is treated as a 1000-rated player in the new rating calculations, the effects on the loser will be devastating |
| 05:55.21 | Cide | and if that happened consitently, the loser wouldn't hover around 2000 |
| 05:55.24 | Tem | something to increase mitigation when you RS |
| 05:55.24 | Thunder_Child | normally people cant change their answers on a poll so if you add new options people cant revote |
| 05:55.36 | Cide | s/consitently/consistently/ |
| 05:55.39 | Legorol | Cide: right, actually that's very interesting |
| 05:55.48 | Legorol | can't we reverse this argument then, and say: |
| 05:55.57 | Cairenn | once you've voted, you can't vote a second time anyway |
| 05:55.58 | Legorol | in that case, for a champion, it's worth to keep resetting their rating |
| 05:56.09 | Cairenn | on a single poll, that is |
| 05:56.10 | Cide | exactly! |
| 05:56.17 | Cide | but that's the point I'm trying to make |
| 05:56.19 | Cairenn | so you're going to need to make a new one anyway |
| 05:56.21 | Cide | it's only worth it for a champion :P |
| 05:56.24 | Cide | ONLY* |
| 05:56.25 | Legorol | because lowering other champions ratings is good |
| 05:56.27 | Tem | there are 3 entirely different and odd conversations going on at once in here |
| 05:56.31 | Thunder_Child | so you might want to have a post asking people what they want on a poll then make the poll |
| 05:56.37 | Tem | Signet of the imprgnable fortress |
| 05:56.38 | Tem | where |
| 05:56.40 | Tem | I must have it |
| 05:56.50 | Cide | Legorol: but you're not facing other champions unless you're already rated as one in wow |
| 05:57.04 | Mike-N-Go | Alright, I guess I'll do a starter poll, and then make a new poll for the top names and the new ones. |
| 05:57.05 | Thunder_Child | Tem, the thought of you giggleing makes my head hurt |
| 05:57.05 | Legorol | need a min. to get my head around this |
| 05:57.30 | Cide | Legorol: but for the low T high P argument, YES - it may be worth it to reset your T. but ONLY if you're a champion -- in which case you can just play and reach your actual skill level in the first place |
| 05:58.09 | jaxdahl | tem, valor badges |
| 05:58.14 | Tem | QQ |
| 05:58.20 | Tem | I can't find a group for 25man stuff |
| 05:58.27 | Mike-N-Go | I am done with my sandboxpoll, fell free to delete. |
| 05:58.32 | Tem | the only group I can get is a 10man group that won't let me tank |
| 05:58.39 | Tem | and as a result, won't let me roll on tank drops |
| 05:58.47 | Tem | (unless the tanks have it already) |
| 05:58.57 | Cairenn | removed the old one, now that you have it figured out |
| 05:59.16 | jaxdahl | tem, i'm gonna have over 50 expertise once they fix tundra stalker |
| 05:59.33 | Tem | isn't the cap of usefulness around 40? |
| 05:59.53 | Legorol | Cide: I think I got my head around it, and here it goes: I understand what you are saying, and this is what it comes down to then: |
| 06:00.06 | Legorol | assuming that the team rating is representative of skill, |
| 06:00.12 | Mike-N-Go | Yah, I just wanted to see how your polls worked before I did my real one. |
| 06:00.20 | Legorol | it doesn't matter whether you play against teams of the same rating as you, or very different ratings |
| 06:00.28 | Legorol | Elo ensures that your own team rating hovers at your skill |
| 06:00.42 | Legorol | (that's the point of Elo) |
| 06:00.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Tiven (n=Tifa@athedsl-4466753.home.otenet.gr) |
| 06:00.46 | Cairenn | *nod* |
| 06:00.51 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring_ (n=copystri@p548A168A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 06:01.00 | Legorol | Now, let's take the next step: |
| 06:01.19 | Legorol | assuming all individuals except you have their team rating hovering near their skill level, |
| 06:01.22 | jaxdahl | Tem, not for parry |
| 06:01.29 | jaxdahl | dodge is ~25 |
| 06:01.35 | Legorol | it makes *no difference* if you reset your team rating |
| 06:01.48 | Legorol | you influence the matchmaker, but because of Elo, it doesn't matter who you are matched against |
| 06:01.58 | jaxdahl | if i put all the gear on with expertise rating that i have, i'm at 422 expertise rating, 56 (14%) |
| 06:02.09 | Legorol | your P will hover at your actual skill level, because P is calculated from Elo(P,O), which is not a function of the matchmaker |
| 06:02.10 | Tem | nice |
| 06:03.03 | Cide | yes, that sounds correct |
| 06:03.09 | Legorol | Now comes the final element: |
| 06:03.33 | Legorol | in practice, 1500 is special and unique in that it has a large number of teams whose actual skill level is not 1500 |
| 06:03.36 | jaxdahl | i almost hit 40k hp with buffs |
| 06:03.56 | jaxdahl | 38221 according to my stats sheet |
| 06:04.00 | Legorol | if you are sufficiently high from 1500, you can expect most teams' rating to be representative, and therefore your own team rating is irrelevant when you face them |
| 06:04.01 | Tem | I'm passing out tired |
| 06:04.05 | Tem | night guys |
| 06:04.09 | Legorol | s/high/away/ |
| 06:04.16 | Tem | jaxdahl, I'm hella jealous of you |
| 06:04.25 | Cide | yes |
| 06:04.50 | Legorol | so the *only* thing that matters is the sample at 1500, and how much actual skill levels deviate (both up and down) for teams at 1500 |
| 06:05.01 | jaxdahl | Tem|afk, too bad it's going away in a month |
| 06:05.08 | Tem|afk | heh |
| 06:05.09 | jaxdahl | blizzcon this weekend! wonder what we'll hear |
| 06:05.25 | Tem|afk | I have a few questions locked and loaded for the class panel |
| 06:05.37 | Cide | that sounds correct too |
| 06:05.39 | Legorol | what your numbers demonstrate is only that it's hard to keep a high P if you keep playing against teams of 1500 rating when they actually have a skill of 1500, but that's not surprising actually, that's a consequence of Elo, and working as intended |
| 06:06.15 | Cide | it's hard to keep a high P if you keep playing against teams of 1500 rating when they actually have a skill higher than 1500 |
| 06:06.17 | Legorol | under Elo, it's hard to keep a high P, regardless of opponent's rating, even if you kept playing 1100 teams it's hard to keep high P |
| 06:06.25 | Legorol | exactly |
| 06:06.26 | Dewin | Has anybody had experience trying to keep multiple pets levelled with you between 70-80 (or in general, even?) |
| 06:06.40 | Legorol | so the question is, are you more likely to face teams at 1500 whose actual rating is higher than 1500, |
| 06:06.43 | Legorol | or lower than 1500 |
| 06:07.01 | Legorol | and I'd bet that the distribution of teams is such that most teams move downwards from 1500 |
| 06:07.11 | Cide | it all comes down to if P(Loss) < 1/L (if I did that math correctly) |
| 06:07.13 | Legorol | so i think that the 1500 default favours you |
| 06:07.34 | Legorol | I trust your math |
| 06:07.36 | Cide | I disagree |
| 06:07.38 | Cide | I don't :P |
| 06:07.42 | Legorol | hehe |
| 06:07.44 | Cide | it's probably mostly correct |
| 06:07.49 | Cide | it might be < W/L too |
| 06:07.52 | Cide | oh yeah, it is. |
| 06:07.58 | Legorol | ok, can we agree on the following points: |
| 06:07.59 | Cide | if P(Loss) < W/L |
| 06:08.06 | Cide | you can get arbitrarily high P |
| 06:08.20 | Dewin | Legorol: One thing to keep in mind is that at 1500, the teams closest to you are also likely brand new teams |
| 06:08.28 | Cide | assuming gained rating = max(Elo(P, O),1) |
| 06:08.32 | Dewin | So it depends partially on how much experience they have with non-arena PVP |
| 06:08.44 | Legorol | a) assuming that the 1500 teams you meet actually have a skill of 1500, your P will hover at your skill |
| 06:08.49 | Cide | yup |
| 06:08.49 | Legorol | do we agree on that Cide? |
| 06:08.52 | Legorol | right |
| 06:09.08 | Legorol | b) whether you can achieve a higher P depends on the distribution and effect of the new entrants at 1500 |
| 06:09.23 | Cide | higher than actual skill? |
| 06:09.26 | Legorol | yes |
| 06:09.31 | Cide | well |
| 06:09.57 | Legorol | I'm too sleepy to check your math right now, what is P(Loss)? |
| 06:10.00 | Legorol | probability of a loss? |
| 06:10.19 | Cide | I'd state it like "the deviation between your potential achieved P and your skill-based P depends on the distribution and effects of the new entrants at 1500" |
| 06:10.22 | Cide | yes |
| 06:10.39 | Legorol | right |
| 06:10.51 | Cide | you can end up below your skill-based P if the effects of the new entrants are big |
| 06:11.08 | Cide | (as with the champions disguised as beginners argument) |
| 06:11.48 | Legorol | yes |
| 06:11.56 | Legorol | doing the math then (despite being sleepy): |
| 06:11.57 | Legorol | expected gain in P = Prob(Loss)*L + Prob(Win)*W = Prob(Loss)*L + (1-Prob(Loss))*W |
| 06:12.11 | Legorol | setting expected gain to 0: |
| 06:12.33 | Cide | assuming L is negative? |
| 06:12.42 | Legorol | yeah ok |
| 06:12.54 | Legorol | doesn't matter, matter of convention |
| 06:12.57 | Cide | ok |
| 06:13.02 | Cide | go ahead |
| 06:13.13 | Legorol | 0 = Prob(Loss)*L + (1-Prob(Loss))*W |
| 06:13.16 | Legorol | rearranging: |
| 06:13.16 | Legorol | Prob(Loss) = W/(L-W) |
| 06:13.42 | Cide | ok, so my math was slightly wrong |
| 06:13.49 | Legorol | what did i do wrong there though |
| 06:13.59 | Legorol | if W is positive and L is negative, that gives a negative Prob, lol |
| 06:14.31 | Legorol | ah lol a sign error |
| 06:14.39 | Legorol | i rearranged wrong |
| 06:14.48 | Legorol | it rearranges to: Prob(Loss) = W/(W-L) |
| 06:14.50 | Cide | W/(W-L)? |
| 06:14.52 | Cide | ya |
| 06:15.05 | Legorol | which is good, it guarantees that 0<=Prob<=1 |
| 06:15.13 | Cide | that's always good. |
| 06:15.37 | Legorol | unfortunatley the formula doesn't help us much :o) still need to know more about the teams around 1500 |
| 06:15.52 | Legorol | but putting in W=2, L=-30: |
| 06:15.57 | Legorol | 1/16 |
| 06:16.33 | Cide | aye, but it says that you can get (more or less) arbitrarily high P if P(Loss) < W/(W-L) |
| 06:16.39 | |Jelly| | Any idea what time the faire starts? |
| 06:16.46 | |Jelly| | Note: It's not midnight server time. |
| 06:17.05 | Legorol | Cide: yes and no |
| 06:17.09 | Legorol | W and L are functions of P |
| 06:17.14 | Cide | well, yeah |
| 06:17.20 | Legorol | so you can't maintain P(Loss) < W/(W-L) forever |
| 06:17.23 | Cide | actually no, they're functions of T |
| 06:17.26 | Cide | oh |
| 06:17.27 | Cide | no |
| 06:17.28 | Cide | you're right |
| 06:17.52 | Cide | aye, hence "(more or less)" -- eventually you'd gain zero P |
| 06:18.05 | Legorol | aye |
| 06:18.20 | Legorol | the question is if that point is higher than your skill (which i think it might well be), and |
| 06:18.36 | Legorol | more importantly: even if it only reaches your actual skill level, |
| 06:18.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Thordurin (n=Guest@cpe-98-148-167-228.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 06:18.59 | Legorol | for a good player, is it better to play lots of crap opponents or a few equally good opponents in order to maintain his level |
| 06:19.14 | Legorol | (assuming time investment is a nonissue) |
| 06:19.17 | Drophole | uhh |
| 06:19.23 | Drophole | slightly lower skilled rating |
| 06:19.34 | Drophole | win a bunch of 9-13 point games |
| 06:19.41 | Drophole | is easier to rank up than 15-19 rated games |
| 06:19.58 | Cide | ignorning drophole, it's hard to say |
| 06:20.12 | Cide | without data from 1500 |
| 06:20.18 | Legorol | Drophole: you are missing the point :o) |
| 06:20.34 | Legorol | A skilled player has to play at his skill level consistently even against crap teams in order to maintain his level |
| 06:20.40 | Legorol | that's the beauty of Elo |
| 06:20.58 | Cide | basically, resetting your ranking fucks everything up :P |
| 06:21.05 | Legorol | hehe |
| 06:21.12 | Legorol | but it might fuck it up in a good way for you ;_0 |
| 06:21.24 | Legorol | which i suspect might have been the case, because now we get stage 3: |
| 06:21.41 | Legorol | first the basics, i read the rules on how the matching and point awarding is modified under stage 3 |
| 06:21.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Thordurin (n=Guest@cpe-98-148-167-228.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 06:22.06 | Neuro_Medivh | are you debating a theoretical version of the rating system, or the actual? |
| 06:22.16 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: neither |
| 06:22.29 | Legorol | we started with a historical overview of the development of the rating system, |
| 06:22.41 | Neuro_Medivh | yeah, like an hour ago =) |
| 06:22.42 | Legorol | and trying to decide what were the potential exploits under each stage that lead to the changes in the following stage |
| 06:23.02 | Legorol | Cide: there's something weird that just screwed up my brain |
| 06:23.29 | Legorol | The current, latest incarnation of the system (according to the official WoW page) says that: If a character's personal rating is 150 or more points below the team rating, they will earn points based on their personal rating instead of the team rating. |
| 06:23.42 | Legorol | that statement just confused the hell out of me |
| 06:23.57 | Legorol | We kind of agreed that your P is adjusted by Elo(P,O) |
| 06:24.09 | Legorol | but.. then why the change that i just quoted? |
| 06:24.10 | Cide | it is |
| 06:24.23 | Legorol | the bit that i just quoted *is* P adjusted by Elo(P,O) |
| 06:24.26 | Legorol | so what was it before? |
| 06:24.36 | Cide | they will earn arena points |
| 06:24.39 | Cide | not P points |
| 06:24.46 | Legorol | d'oh |
| 06:24.49 | Neuro_Medivh | yes. P is still calculated normally |
| 06:24.52 | Legorol | of course, it's points, not ratings |
| 06:25.00 | Legorol | nvm me, just getting tired |
| 06:25.19 | Cide | the change is so that you can't join a team with high T and play 3 games and get the same amount of points |
| 06:25.31 | Legorol | right, that fixes point buying |
| 06:25.35 | Legorol | what about this one: |
| 06:25.36 | Legorol | If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is 150 points or more below the team's rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating. |
| 06:25.37 | Cide | it makes it harder anyway |
| 06:25.51 | Cide | same thing |
| 06:25.59 | Neuro_Medivh | actually |
| 06:26.00 | Legorol | well, hold on a moment there |
| 06:26.02 | Neuro_Medivh | it's the reverse |
| 06:26.05 | Cide | it's so you can't sell whole teams |
| 06:26.10 | Neuro_Medivh | or inverse |
| 06:26.20 | Legorol | didn't we just agree that the opponent's rating doesn't matter? |
| 06:26.36 | Cide | hm? |
| 06:26.40 | Legorol | and that Elo takes care of putting you on your correct T and P level even if you keep facing totally different rated teams? |
| 06:26.51 | Neuro_Medivh | Cide, it's so people can't build a team up to 2k, transfer a bunch of 1500 in, and then use the 2k team to face off against the rebuilt good team |
| 06:26.51 | Cide | it takes care of this exploit: |
| 06:26.59 | Cide | what Neuro_Medivh said |
| 06:27.18 | Neuro_Medivh | which was a huge issue back in the beginning |
| 06:27.33 | Legorol | woot, sounds like Neuro_Medivh knows about the exploits |
| 06:27.44 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: you are now targetted for quizzification |
| 06:27.51 | Neuro_Medivh | lol, I saw lots of people gaming the system |
| 06:28.07 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: what was the issue that you describe, and under which of the three stages of evolution of the arena system did it take place? |
| 06:28.14 | Cide | it takes care of another thing too |
| 06:28.16 | Legorol | the more detail you can suplly the bettter (i didn't get your exaple) |
| 06:28.35 | Cide | it means you approach your team's skill-based rating faster |
| 06:28.39 | Neuro_Medivh | not sure what the timetable is, but that kind of exploitation was common before personal rating ever developed |
| 06:28.52 | Legorol | what kind of exploitation? |
| 06:28.55 | Legorol | can you please elaborate? |
| 06:29.01 | Neuro_Medivh | You create 2 teams, Alpha and Beta |
| 06:29.02 | Legorol | i still don't understand the example :) |
| 06:29.11 | Legorol | ok |
| 06:29.11 | *** join/#wowuidev leethal (n=augli@kontoret-intern.hardware.no) |
| 06:29.22 | Neuro_Medivh | Alpha plays Beta, intentionally and on off-nights, with Beta throwing the game to Alpha |
| 06:29.33 | Neuro_Medivh | until Alpha is high rated, and Beta low |
| 06:29.37 | Legorol | ah ok you are talking about win-trading |
| 06:29.42 | Neuro_Medivh | Yes |
| 06:29.52 | Neuro_Medivh | the earliest exploits were all about win-trading |
| 06:29.52 | Legorol | we completely excluded win-trading from the discussion |
| 06:29.56 | Neuro_Medivh | ah |
| 06:30.00 | Legorol | because that is obviously cheating, and not just a clever use of game mechancis |
| 06:30.26 | Neuro_Medivh | that's just it, most people consider their cheating to just be clever use of game mechanics |
| 06:30.33 | Legorol | anyway, carry on with the example |
| 06:30.34 | Neuro_Medivh | but for a non-cheating method |
| 06:30.53 | *** join/#wowuidev zenzio (n=zenzelez@85.19.77.194) |
| 06:30.56 | Legorol | i obviously understand how throwing matches gets you high rating |
| 06:31.05 | Legorol | what's this about transferring a bunch of 1500s in? |
| 06:31.22 | Neuro_Medivh | well, this was pre-personal rating |
| 06:31.29 | Legorol | sure, by all means do tell |
| 06:31.36 | Legorol | i'm interested in the historical aspects very much |
| 06:32.16 | Neuro_Medivh | you just cycle out the players. By doing so, you can get a high rating to 5 x .3/10 people |
| 06:32.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Diskmaster (n=YOURFACE@76.85.147.197) |
| 06:32.36 | Neuro_Medivh | or maybe it's 10/.3 |
| 06:32.51 | Neuro_Medivh | since you have to play 30% of the games |
| 06:32.53 | Legorol | sorry, due to me being tired, you have to be much more explicit |
| 06:33.03 | Legorol | what is "cycling out players"? |
| 06:33.11 | Neuro_Medivh | inviting them in |
| 06:33.12 | Legorol | and why did you say "transferring in" earlier? |
| 06:33.16 | Legorol | >.< |
| 06:33.21 | Legorol | are you getting people in, or booting them out? |
| 06:33.40 | Legorol | i'm confuzzled |
| 06:33.59 | Neuro_Medivh | well, in win-trading, there's cycling... in just straight team sharing, you just invite a bunch of people in when you have a high rating |
| 06:34.29 | Neuro_Medivh | and as long as they play 30% of the games, they get full credit, but that's a fairly straightforward method of gaming the system |
| 06:34.47 | Legorol | yeah and that's allowed, and that i understand |
| 06:34.54 | Legorol | how do you cycle in win-trading? |
| 06:35.35 | Neuro_Medivh | because the teams carry the bad rating, not the players... so the same 10 players rotate between 3 teams, with 1 team always taking the losses, and the 10 players end up on the two high-ranked teams |
| 06:36.26 | Legorol | is this 5v5? |
| 06:36.38 | Neuro_Medivh | yes, but it can be extended to 2v2 or 3v3 |
| 06:36.46 | Legorol | ok, why do you need 3 teams? |
| 06:36.50 | Legorol | wouldn't 2 teams be enough? |
| 06:36.54 | norgs | Is anyone here running addons on the PTR (not beta) |
| 06:36.59 | Legorol | a "winner" and a "loser" team, alternating members |
| 06:37.02 | Dewin | norgs: I am |
| 06:37.25 | norgs | Dewin: You didn't have any problems getting them running? |
| 06:37.27 | Cide | but then you'd only get half the amount of points, right? |
| 06:37.29 | Neuro_Medivh | usually you use 3 (or more) so that the points build faster |
| 06:37.33 | Dewin | Norgs: Depends on the addons ;) |
| 06:37.40 | Dewin | I've used the PTR primarily as a way to update/replace/etc |
| 06:37.46 | Cide | well, not half, but less |
| 06:37.53 | norgs | I'm having trouble seeing them |
| 06:37.56 | Dewin | I do know that the current (non WOTLK versions) of DBM cause my chat log to go *POOF* |
| 06:38.08 | Neuro_Medivh | personally, I think Arena could be fixed by simply disallowing Arena rewards being used outside of Arena/BG |
| 06:38.16 | norgs | i don't get a button on my char select screen either |
| 06:38.24 | Dewin | norgs: Don't forget the PTR client has its own addons folder |
| 06:38.27 | Legorol | hold on i still don't get the 3 team thing |
| 06:38.33 | Cide | Legorol: you have 10 people but 3 teams |
| 06:38.37 | Legorol | ok.. |
| 06:38.44 | Tekkub | Neuro_Medivh, I love you |
| 06:38.44 | Cide | if you have 2 teams, 5 of those people would end up on the losing team each week |
| 06:38.49 | Legorol | yes |
| 06:38.50 | Cide | and thus end up with a lower amount of points |
| 06:38.54 | Legorol | ofc |
| 06:38.59 | Neuro_Medivh | Cide, nah, cause they would move to the winning team at the end of the week |
| 06:39.01 | Cide | if you use 3 teams, all 10 players can end up on winning teams |
| 06:39.21 | Tekkub | the fact that you guys are still rambling about this proves what I've been saying for years... |
| 06:39.25 | Tekkub | PvP ruins everything |
| 06:39.29 | Cide | Neuro_Medivh: true, I suppose that could be achieved |
| 06:39.30 | Mikk | A lot of this would be fixed with a cooldown on team joining |
| 06:39.39 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: don't you lose your contribution if you leave the team and rejoin? |
| 06:39.39 | Neuro_Medivh | Disagree, Tekkub... pvp REWARDS ruins pve |
| 06:39.42 | Cide | everything could be fixed by not allowing your rating to be reset :P |
| 06:39.43 | Legorol | in terms of % games played |
| 06:39.49 | Dewin | norgs: Was that the problem? |
| 06:40.04 | Legorol | Cide and Neuro_Medivh: please bear with me, i still don't get it |
| 06:40.08 | Tekkub | as much as I hated playing FFXI, they got PvP right in the respect that changes to spell mechanics in PvP didn't change PvE at the same time |
| 06:40.08 | norgs | Dewin: when you installed PTR, did it install as a WoWTest subfolder, or a completely different folder? |
| 06:40.28 | Legorol | you have 10 people, 5 of them on Winning Team A at the end of the week, where is the other 5? |
| 06:40.32 | norgs | Dewin: No, I definately have them in the right folder |
| 06:40.47 | Neuro_Medivh | all 10 are on winning team A at the end of the week |
| 06:40.58 | Legorol | ok that's the part i don't get |
| 06:41.00 | Neuro_Medivh | losing team B and C have 1 member |
| 06:41.05 | Neuro_Medivh | at the end of the week |
| 06:41.08 | Legorol | ok.. |
| 06:41.15 | Neuro_Medivh | usually some alt |
| 06:41.25 | Legorol | but how can you have 10 on the winning team A and all having played 30% of matches? |
| 06:41.38 | Mikk | Because they'll have played 33.3%? |
| 06:41.41 | Legorol | 5 of those 10 need to be on the losing team at some point |
| 06:41.48 | Legorol | i'm really confused |
| 06:41.49 | Dewin | norgs: I installed it as D:\wow-ptr instead of D:\wow, but that shouldn't matter |
| 06:41.55 | Neuro_Medivh | yes, but when they rejoin, it still shows them as having played |
| 06:42.01 | Legorol | aaaaaaaaaah |
| 06:42.01 | Neuro_Medivh | for their team |
| 06:42.04 | Legorol | that's what i asked earlier |
| 06:42.12 | Legorol | does your contribution not reset when you leave? |
| 06:42.17 | Neuro_Medivh | no |
| 06:42.20 | norgs | Dewin: ok, so same with me then |
| 06:42.34 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: ok in that case, i totally fail to see the point of 3 teams |
| 06:42.39 | Legorol | two teams: Winner and Loser |
| 06:42.48 | Legorol | 5 players start in Winner, 5 in Loser, play 10 games |
| 06:42.52 | Legorol | then swap, another 10 |
| 06:42.52 | Xinhuan | contributions are reset once you leave/join a team |
| 06:42.57 | Legorol | then everyone moves to WInner |
| 06:42.58 | Neuro_Medivh | yes, but if you want the most points, you wanna play teams closer to your rating |
| 06:42.59 | Xinhuan | your /played is reset to 0 games |
| 06:43.00 | Legorol | everyone contributed 50% |
| 06:43.08 | norgs | Dewin: So you put your addons in D:\wow-ptr\Interface\Addons\*, right? |
| 06:43.13 | Dewin | norgs: correct. |
| 06:43.13 | Neuro_Medivh | so as team Loser gets down low, you start team NewLoser |
| 06:43.27 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: ok but that's still not a 3-team system |
| 06:43.32 | Legorol | and also, see what Xinhuan said |
| 06:43.35 | Neuro_Medivh | I misspoke earlier |
| 06:43.43 | Neuro_Medivh | Xinhuan, NOW it is |
| 06:43.45 | Legorol | your example doesn't make sense in the light of Xinhuan's statement |
| 06:43.45 | norgs | Dewin: this is just bizzare... I was hopint there was some kind of trick that I missed doing |
| 06:43.55 | norgs | it seems my computer is just being weird |
| 06:44.04 | Xinhuan | so whats the point of discussing something that worked only 5 months ago |
| 06:44.05 | norgs | time for reboot, methinks |
| 06:44.06 | Neuro_Medivh | these are all exploits that were fixed long ago |
| 06:44.25 | Legorol | Xinhuan: whole convo started as a historical overview of the development of the arena system |
| 06:44.37 | Legorol | unfortunately Neuro_Medivh, you got to be really precise with me here because i'm tired |
| 06:44.38 | Dewin | norgs: Have you restarted the PTR client since installing the addons? :) |
| 06:44.38 | *** join/#wowuidev leethal (n=augli@kontoret-intern.hardware.no) |
| 06:44.49 | Legorol | i won't be able to read between the lines, unless you are exact i will fail to understand it |
| 06:44.54 | Neuro_Medivh | sorry Legorol, I'm tired too and I don't remember everything perfectly either =) |
| 06:44.57 | norgs | Dewin: Lol, like about 20 times |
| 06:44.58 | Legorol | :o) |
| 06:45.13 | norgs | Dewin: Thanks for the /assist though |
| 06:45.34 | Legorol | so can anyone explain to me what exploit does the following fix: |
| 06:45.35 | Legorol | "If the average personal rating of the players queuing for a game is 150 points or more below the team's rating, the team will be queued against an opponent matching or similar to the average personal rating. " |
| 06:46.24 | Neuro_Medivh | that's so if you stock a team with personal 1500s, even though the team is ranked 2k, they won't get matched up against another 2k |
| 06:46.34 | Cide | yep |
| 06:46.35 | Xinhuan | it fixes a 1500 player joining a 2200 team, and playing against 2200 players to get PR to 2000 quickly. |
| 06:46.46 | Xinhuan | i.e fixes point selling |
| 06:46.47 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh and Cide: i understand what it *does*, but what does it *fix* |
| 06:46.52 | Cide | what Xinhuan said |
| 06:47.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Yssaril (n=Yssaril@adsl-99-145-231-186.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 06:47.11 | Cide | it also means you approach your skill level faster too (which would happen eventually, but not as fast) |
| 06:47.14 | Legorol | Cide: is this still an N-1 vs. N type of selling? |
| 06:47.23 | Cide | no |
| 06:47.29 | Legorol | Cide: also it means you approach your skill level *slower* |
| 06:47.32 | Mike-N-Go | Yay, I caught a stack overflow! |
| 06:47.34 | Cide | by giving away the whole team |
| 06:47.37 | Xinhuan | fixing point selling is far more important than letting the 2200 players play at 1500 with the new player |
| 06:47.38 | Dewin | Anybody else have reproducible crashes in beta/PTR upon reloadui or character change? |
| 06:47.41 | Legorol | if you are really skilled, you want to play those high-rated teams |
| 06:48.00 | Legorol | Xinhuan: please elaborate |
| 06:48.07 | Cide | Legorol: if you give away your whole team to some beginners, they will approach their true rating quite slowly if you play equally rated teams |
| 06:48.13 | Xinhuan | point selling was skewing arena teams |
| 06:48.43 | Neuro_Medivh | I think team rating should be eliminated as seperate stat, and have it just be the avg P-rating of all your players, weighted by # of games played that week |
| 06:48.45 | Legorol | Cide: right |
| 06:48.55 | Xinhuan | it gives rise to a new set of problems though |
| 06:49.05 | Cide | Neuro_Medivh: not very intuitive to the player |
| 06:49.06 | Xinhuan | see, point selling is where the original 2200 team plays 7 games |
| 06:49.13 | Xinhuan | and then sells a spot to 1 person for 3 games |
| 06:49.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Elkano (n=elkano@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Elkano) |
| 06:49.34 | Neuro_Medivh | Cide: Like the current system is transparent =) |
| 06:49.38 | Xinhuan | after the "fix" the new set of problems that arise is that all these 2200 players are now playing at the 1600 bracket |
| 06:49.42 | Legorol | yay, Xinhuan seems to know the details, *and* able to explain |
| 06:49.43 | Cide | Neuro_Medivh: more so anyway |
| 06:49.44 | Legorol | finally a person |
| 06:49.59 | Xinhuan | so the REAL ppl that are around 1800 can't get past these 2200 ppl playing at 1600 |
| 06:50.01 | Xinhuan | to reach 1800 |
| 06:50.03 | Legorol | Xinhuan: please be a little more precise (as people are tired), and distinguish team and personal ratings |
| 06:50.10 | Legorol | you are using numbers, are those team or personal ratings? |
| 06:50.16 | Xinhuan | both |
| 06:50.30 | Xinhuan | i'm referring to skill level |
| 06:50.33 | Legorol | ok |
| 06:50.40 | Legorol | how are the 2200 players end up playing at 1600? |
| 06:50.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 06:50.58 | Xinhuan | a 1800 skilled team, is unable to reach 1800 because 2200-skilled players are playing at 1600-teams because of point selling |
| 06:51.12 | Neuro_Medivh | he's assuming 2200 p-rated players are commiserate with the skill required to honestly receive 2200 p-rating |
| 06:51.18 | Xinhuan | the 1800-skilled team remains stuck at 1600, unable to beat these 2200-skilled-playing-at-1600 |
| 06:51.38 | Legorol | Xinhuan: again, please explain to me how/why is the 2200 skilled person playing at 1600? |
| 06:51.50 | Legorol | how is he achieving that and why is that a consequence of point selling? |
| 06:51.56 | Xinhuan | they point sell, by inviting a player into their team at 1500 |
| 06:52.02 | Xinhuan | so when they queue, they play at 1500 |
| 06:52.07 | Xinhuan | then go up to 1600 |
| 06:52.09 | Neuro_Medivh | It's avg, xin |
| 06:52.12 | Fisker- | nooo |
| 06:52.24 | Xinhuan | well move the numbers up then |
| 06:52.29 | Xinhuan | you get what i mean |
| 06:52.47 | Neuro_Medivh | lua>2200*4+1600 |
| 06:52.48 | lua_bot | Neuro_Medivh: 10400 |
| 06:52.58 | Neuro_Medivh | so the team rating would be around 2080 |
| 06:53.11 | Legorol | Xinhuan: ok so the high rated person is selling points, i.e. has a team with high *team* rating, and he doesn't care about losing that or his personal rating? |
| 06:53.21 | Legorol | and the lowe rated person is only interested in getting points, but not personal rating? |
| 06:53.22 | Xinhuan | why would he care about it |
| 06:53.37 | Xinhuan | all it takes is a new team made 2 weeks before end-of-season, and play 2-3 nights |
| 06:53.40 | Xinhuan | and voila, back to 2300 |
| 06:53.52 | Legorol | ok let's not go there yet |
| 06:53.55 | Legorol | let's stick to one thing at a time |
| 06:54.03 | Legorol | so this new person joining up with the 2200 person |
| 06:54.06 | Xinhuan | i know friends that can go from 1500-2300 in a single night, 80 wins 4 loss |
| 06:54.06 | Legorol | he is in it for the points |
| 06:54.08 | Neuro_Medivh | well, you care about both... t-rating gets you points, and p-rating lets you spend those points |
| 06:54.24 | Xinhuan | these 2300 ppl, do not care about TR or PR until the end of the season |
| 06:54.31 | Xinhuan | only the last 2 weeks count, or matter |
| 06:54.31 | Legorol | that's fine |
| 06:54.37 | Legorol | again, let's focus on one topic at a time, please :) |
| 06:54.41 | Neuro_Medivh | so, basically, right now |
| 06:54.48 | Xinhuan | they would have got all their s4 gear within 4 weeks of s4 start |
| 06:54.49 | Legorol | i'm having ah ard time understanding the examples/situations with only one example at a time already |
| 06:54.52 | Xinhuan | which was about 6 months ago |
| 06:55.02 | Neuro_Medivh | friend of mine said it best. You use this season to gear up for NEXT season |
| 06:55.17 | Neuro_Medivh | and THEN you worry about rating |
| 06:55.27 | Xinhuan | the PR/TR system isn't perfect, it has flaws |
| 06:55.34 | Neuro_Medivh | no system is perfect |
| 06:55.34 | Xinhuan | therefore blizz wants to introduce a hidden rating system |
| 06:55.37 | Xinhuan | blues posted it |
| 06:55.46 | Legorol | please, please let's take a few steps back |
| 06:55.49 | Legorol | you are moving too fast |
| 06:56.01 | Legorol | i am still stuck on the low-rated person joining the 2200 person |
| 06:56.03 | Xinhuan | ok, you should just scroll up and reread line by line |
| 06:56.05 | Legorol | i still don't see the problem there |
| 06:56.07 | Legorol | i did :) |
| 06:56.13 | Legorol | but i don't see why it's impacting other teams |
| 06:56.26 | Xinhuan | its impacting other teams because the 2200 team isn't playing against teams around 2200 |
| 06:56.34 | Legorol | but that doesn't matter |
| 06:56.37 | Legorol | Elo takes care of that |
| 06:56.37 | Xinhuan | its playing teams around 1800-1900 due to the 1500 player |
| 06:56.44 | Legorol | i understood that |
| 06:56.45 | Xinhuan | so the teams that are around 1800-1900 LOSE |
| 06:56.46 | Legorol | but why is that a problem |
| 06:56.51 | Legorol | yes they do |
| 06:56.58 | Legorol | but Elo compensates for that |
| 06:57.02 | Xinhuan | it doesn't |
| 06:57.11 | Xinhuan | because all the 2300 teams do it |
| 06:57.19 | Xinhuan | the 1900 teams can't reach 2000 |
| 06:57.22 | Legorol | ok: under Elo, it doesn't matter who you get matched against |
| 06:57.28 | Legorol | what matters is how you are allocated points |
| 06:57.29 | Xinhuan | because they keep meeting these 2200 players playing at 1900 |
| 06:57.36 | Legorol | Xinhuan, slow down a bit please |
| 06:57.50 | Xinhuan | sigh, are you that slow |
| 06:58.05 | Legorol | basic premise of Elo: you can meet an opponent of very dissimilar skill level to you, as long as the opponent's team rating is representative you will be able to converge on your intended rating |
| 06:58.12 | Legorol | that's the point of Elo, that's how it was designed |
| 06:58.15 | Xinhuan | but it is not representative |
| 06:58.25 | Xinhuan | a 2200 team queueing is meeting 1900 teams |
| 06:58.26 | Legorol | the personal rating isn't |
| 06:58.33 | Legorol | *sigh* |
| 06:58.38 | Xinhuan | because the PR average rule skews the whole system |
| 06:58.41 | Legorol | That's what I'm saying! |
| 06:58.47 | NightHawkTheSane | Legorol: the key you seem to be missing is that the team "should" be at 2200, but the system thinks its a 1900 team |
| 06:58.50 | Legorol | ok, consider this for examples sake: |
| 06:59.00 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: *only for matchmaking purposes* |
| 06:59.02 | Xinhuan | ^^^^^ |
| 06:59.07 | Legorol | the point that i'm trying to scream to you guys is this: |
| 06:59.11 | Xinhuan | yes, and matchmaking is ALL that matters |
| 06:59.17 | Legorol | matchmaking has NO bearing on your ability to reach your intended rating |
| 06:59.19 | Legorol | no |
| 06:59.22 | Legorol | Elo takes care of that |
| 06:59.23 | NightHawkTheSane | so the system sees a "real" 1900 team lose against the "fake" 1900 team, and adjusts their rating down, when it shouldn't, because the fake team is actually 2200 |
| 06:59.27 | Xinhuan | the 2200-team-will beat the 1900 team that it gets matched against |
| 06:59.44 | Legorol | ok, ok, let's slow down, deep breath, let's start with some basic premises |
| 06:59.44 | Xinhuan | so the 1900 team even if they are truly skilled and should be at 2000, can't actually reach 2000 |
| 06:59.49 | Legorol | ignore personal rating for now, ok? |
| 06:59.51 | Legorol | please ignore personal rating |
| 06:59.56 | Legorol | and let's imagine a world with only team rating |
| 06:59.56 | Xinhuan | because the 1900 team isn't meeting players around 1900 - they are meeting players around 2200 |
| 07:00.04 | norgs | Dewin: ok, so reboot didn't fix it |
| 07:00.11 | Legorol | Xinhuan: that's the whole point i'm arguing against |
| 07:00.12 | Dewin | norgs: What build? |
| 07:00.15 | Xinhuan | because the matchmaking system keeps matching them wrong |
| 07:00.23 | Legorol | thanks to Elo, you *DON'T HAVE TO* meet teams of the same skill level to reach your rating |
| 07:00.31 | Legorol | pleease, please listen to what i'm saying |
| 07:00.42 | Legorol | Blizzard's matchmaking is an *additional* factor, not inherent in Elo |
| 07:00.47 | norgs | Dewin: of PTR? 0.0.2(9038) |
| 07:00.47 | Legorol | It's not necessary for Elo to function |
| 07:00.54 | Xinhuan | it is a factor enough to unbalance the premise of Elo |
| 07:01.20 | Legorol | ok do you understand how Elo works, when it does work? |
| 07:01.30 | NightHawkTheSane | Legorol: once more: the problem you're missing, and that Xinhuan is trying to get at, is NOT that teams are being matched against other teams of diseparate rating. IT's that the system is matching teams that HAVE similar ratings, but one team's ACTUAL skill is -higher- than their actual rating, but artifically kept low |
| 07:01.43 | Xinhuan | it works because point gain/loss is proportional to the skill of the player you play against |
| 07:01.46 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan_L@adsl-177-44-157.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 07:01.53 | Xinhuan | but only if the "skill" is already represented correctly |
| 07:01.56 | Xinhuan | but it isn't |
| 07:02.04 | Xinhuan | the 2200-skilled is being treated as 1900-skilled |
| 07:02.10 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: *your* point gain is dependeont on the opponent's *team rating* though |
| 07:02.23 | NightHawkTheSane | yes? and? |
| 07:02.25 | Xinhuan | its how you get easy wins |
| 07:02.25 | Legorol | not the calculated average personal rating that you got matched by |
| 07:02.35 | Xinhuan | that's the whole point |
| 07:02.37 | Dewin | norgs: hmm |
| 07:02.37 | Legorol | sigh |
| 07:02.43 | Legorol | ok guys you are not listening to me |
| 07:02.45 | NightHawkTheSane | if a 1900 team A loses to 1900 team B, team A loses rating, team B gains rating, correct? |
| 07:02.47 | Legorol | i understand what you are saying |
| 07:02.54 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: yes |
| 07:03.03 | Xinhuan | the 2 in the 2200 team can choose to meet 1900 teams by playing with a member that leaves and rejoins the team |
| 07:03.12 | Xinhuan | they totally avoid playing 2200 teams |
| 07:03.14 | Xinhuan | and go up |
| 07:03.16 | Xinhuan | in rating to 2300 |
| 07:03.18 | Legorol | Xinhuan: yes, but that doesn't matter |
| 07:03.24 | Legorol | bleh |
| 07:03.27 | Xinhuan | but it does, its called "bottomfeeding" |
| 07:03.34 | Legorol | ok, let me say again, because you are still not listening to me |
| 07:03.36 | norgs | ok, well time to delete my interface folder and start from scrtach |
| 07:03.40 | NightHawkTheSane | okay, now. if team B is made up of players who have a skill level commensurate with 2200 rating, and are keeping their rating artificially at 1900, then team A is not really playing a 1900 team, are they? |
| 07:03.42 | Legorol | please please please listen very carefully to the following statement: |
| 07:03.46 | Dewin | hold on :) |
| 07:04.22 | Legorol | let's ignore personal rating, as it's a complicating factor, i'll come to that |
| 07:04.26 | Legorol | let's focus on team rating alone |
| 07:04.35 | Xinhuan | the ELO system is designed so that after a number of games, the TR reaches a point where it is close to the actual skill level of the team - but because of the matchmaking skewing, this doesn't happen |
| 07:04.36 | NightHawkTheSane | i haven't even mentioned personal rating. |
| 07:05.02 | Legorol | Xinhuan: matchmaking doesn't skew it! that's the point |
| 07:05.03 | Xinhuan | the team that SHOULD BE AT 2000, can't reach 2000 because of the skewed matchmaking |
| 07:05.09 | Legorol | THat is the WHOLE point I'm tring to say |
| 07:05.15 | Xinhuan | therefore the whole system is flawed |
| 07:05.25 | Xinhuan | the team that SHOULD BE AT 2000, can't reach 2000 because of the skewed matchmaking <--- READ |
| 07:05.25 | Neuro_Medivh | on a completely different topic: Why do so many people insist on making their own music videos of popular songs, but using anime clips? |
| 07:05.30 | Legorol | under Elo, someone whose skill is 2000, will approach 2000 rating, even if they keep playing 1110s |
| 07:05.33 | Legorol | that's the whole point |
| 07:05.40 | Xinhuan | but they aren't playing 1110s |
| 07:05.44 | Xinhuan | they are playing against 2220s |
| 07:05.49 | Legorol | Xinhuan: i will read when you read my statement too |
| 07:05.50 | Xinhuan | and losing. |
| 07:06.03 | Xinhuan | i did |
| 07:06.04 | NightHawkTheSane | Neuro_Medivh: why do painters insist on paiting things that already exist, but in different ways? |
| 07:06.06 | Xinhuan | your statement is wrong |
| 07:06.14 | Xinhuan | [10/6 15:05:29] <+Legorol> under Elo, someone whose skill is 2000, will approach 2000 rating, even if they keep playing 1110s <-- they aren't playing 110s |
| 07:06.16 | Xinhuan | 1110 |
| 07:06.17 | Legorol | ok, read this again: under Elo, you don't have to be matched against people of same rating, and everyone still converges to their skill |
| 07:06.38 | Xinhuan | that is correct only if the matchmaking is nto skewed in the first place |
| 07:06.42 | Neuro_Medivh | NightHawkTheSane: That's fine, it's painting the same thing in the same way over and over again a la Thomas Kinkaid that I think is garbage |
| 07:06.53 | Legorol | Xinhuan: let me say again: matchmaking has NO bearing on Elo |
| 07:06.54 | Xinhuan | once it is skewed, the ELO premise of converging to their skill goes out of the window |
| 07:06.58 | Legorol | matchmaking is arbitrary |
| 07:07.00 | Dotted | /popcorn |
| 07:07.02 | Xinhuan | it does, dude |
| 07:07.14 | Xinhuan | if my 1900 team keeps playing against 2400 teams and losing |
| 07:07.14 | NightHawkTheSane | Neuro_Medivh: well, art criticism aside, my point is that for some, AMV's are a form of art & expression. |
| 07:07.14 | Legorol | Xinhuan: Elo makes no assumptions about matchmaking |
| 07:07.17 | Neuro_Medivh | Or hell, pick something else besides Naruto, FF-Advent Children, or Harry Potter |
| 07:07.22 | Xinhuan | how do i reach 2000? |
| 07:07.26 | Legorol | Xinhuan: please please you are still not reading this: |
| 07:07.32 | Legorol | Elo makes no assumption about matchmaking |
| 07:07.52 | Legorol | Elo works regardless of the systme used to match people, as long as you follow the formula for calculating the point gains/losses |
| 07:08.20 | Xinhuan | if 100% of the games i play against are against 2400, the team can only lose points, never gain |
| 07:08.25 | Legorol | if your 1900 keeps playing against 2400, it reaches 2000 by winning the occasional game and gaining big |
| 07:08.31 | Legorol | i disagree |
| 07:08.33 | Legorol | that's the point of Elo |
| 07:08.39 | Xinhuan | go ask arena junkies then :) |
| 07:08.41 | Legorol | if a 1900 plays against 2400, they will win *some* games |
| 07:08.54 | Legorol | and the Elo formula takes care of that you are duly rewarded when you do win |
| 07:08.59 | Xinhuan | go find the heaps of 1900 teams that keep playing against players with s4 shoulders |
| 07:09.04 | Xinhuan | and whining about it |
| 07:09.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Slakah (n=Slakah@5acd4394.bb.sky.com) |
| 07:09.42 | NightHawkTheSane | Legorol: I'm still fairly certain the piece you're confused about here is the mis-ranking of team skills by players artificially forcing their TR down. |
| 07:09.55 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: no, that i'm not confused about |
| 07:10.00 | Legorol | i totally agree about that |
| 07:10.06 | Legorol | if you artifically keep your TR low, you do screw the system |
| 07:10.12 | Legorol | that's not what Xinhuan was saying though |
| 07:10.18 | NightHawkTheSane | it pretty much is, actually. |
| 07:10.21 | Legorol | he only was making statements with regards to screwing the matchmaking |
| 07:10.23 | Legorol | which is a different thing |
| 07:10.25 | Xinhuan | once a team artifically keeps their TR low, it affects the win/lose points |
| 07:10.30 | Legorol | yes |
| 07:10.32 | Legorol | i completely agree |
| 07:10.37 | Legorol | but these are two separate issues |
| 07:10.52 | Legorol | a) screwing with matchmaking doesn't affect the results, because matchmaking is *extraneous* to Elo |
| 07:10.57 | NightHawkTheSane | the matchmaking is based on team rating. if team rating is not accurate, the entire matchmaking system necessarily becomes arbitrary and flawed |
| 07:11.01 | Legorol | b) screwing with your TR *does* affect the result |
| 07:11.06 | Xinhuan | the 2200 TR team, has little risk of losing when they artificially play at 1900 |
| 07:11.24 | Legorol | Xinhuan: when you say "artificially play at", do you mean they lower their TR to 1900? |
| 07:11.27 | Legorol | because that's the key here |
| 07:11.33 | Legorol | that's what i've been saying all along: |
| 07:11.34 | Xinhuan | the 2200 TR team, has little risk of losing when they artificially matchmake at 1900 |
| 07:11.43 | Legorol | a) screwing the matchmaker is fine b) screwing your TR is not |
| 07:11.45 | Xinhuan | they in effect, skew their rating up |
| 07:11.49 | Legorol | Xinhuan: that doesn't matter |
| 07:11.51 | Legorol | no |
| 07:11.54 | Xinhuan | it does |
| 07:11.56 | Legorol | screwing the matchmaker doesn'tmatter |
| 07:12.01 | Legorol | screwing your TR does |
| 07:12.09 | Xinhuan | how do you think win-trading works |
| 07:12.14 | Xinhuan | by artifically matchmaking |
| 07:12.14 | Corrodias | screwing your swim teacher often turns out badly |
| 07:12.20 | Legorol | win-trading is totally extraneous to this conversation |
| 07:12.34 | Xinhuan | unfoctunately, the queueing system has the biggest effect on ratings |
| 07:12.37 | Legorol | Ok, let me put it this way: |
| 07:12.49 | Xinhuan | how many top teams do you know create level 1s on other servers to avoid queueing counter-comps? |
| 07:12.49 | Legorol | Blizzard arena system = Elo point calculation + Blizzard matchmaking |
| 07:12.55 | Xinhuan | most do it |
| 07:13.20 | Neuro_Medivh | Corrodias, depends on gender, age, and legal system |
| 07:13.32 | Legorol | in and of itself Elo does let you play against *any* rating and still attain your intended rating |
| 07:13.41 | NightHawkTheSane | Xinhuan: wait, what's that? |
| 07:13.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Lonny` (n=Lonny@82.80.140.163) |
| 07:14.08 | Xinhuan | you understand that at higher rankings, in the top 10, those players are forced to play a min number of games every year |
| 07:14.14 | Xinhuan | they can't just sit at their ELO rating forever |
| 07:14.36 | Xinhuan | there are certain compulsory tounaments that these ppl have to attend, or they get penalties |
| 07:14.46 | Xinhuan | happens in most sports |
| 07:14.51 | Legorol | sure |
| 07:14.59 | Neuro_Medivh | Tennis is like that |
| 07:15.03 | Neuro_Medivh | chess, too |
| 07:15.06 | Legorol | what does that have to do with anything |
| 07:15.24 | Xinhuan | that in effect, these compulsory tournaments, are forced matchmaking |
| 07:15.36 | Legorol | what? |
| 07:15.43 | Xinhuan | if they aren't forced, the top ranking players can just stay top ranked |
| 07:15.47 | Legorol | matchmaking: the method of choosing who to pair with whom |
| 07:15.48 | Xinhuan | without playing games |
| 07:15.55 | Legorol | not really, o |
| 07:16.05 | Legorol | if that top ranking person never played because he didn't have to, |
| 07:16.11 | Legorol | someone else would eventually attain a higher Elo rating |
| 07:16.19 | Legorol | even if that person had to keep playing lower rated people |
| 07:16.40 | Legorol | let's say that Xinhuan, you attain 2000 and then "retire", never to play a game again |
| 07:16.54 | Legorol | I start at 1500, and there are only crap players around |
| 07:17.02 | Legorol | still, i'd eventually be able to get to 2000 or even higher |
| 07:17.06 | Legorol | and overtake you |
| 07:17.25 | Legorol | assuming that my skill level is in fact above 2000 |
| 07:17.50 | Xinhuan | the idea of forced games is to keep the skill level consistent |
| 07:17.54 | Xinhuan | consider if i retired at 2000 |
| 07:17.57 | Xinhuan | then you start at 1500 |
| 07:18.05 | Xinhuan | and the gaming population shrunk by 2/3 |
| 07:18.16 | Xinhuan | the top rated players might then be just 1800 |
| 07:18.22 | Xinhuan | because the number of teams is so little |
| 07:18.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (n=kalroth@0x573f1066.hjnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 07:18.26 | Legorol | indeed |
| 07:18.36 | Xinhuan | that's why there is forced gamings |
| 07:18.41 | Xinhuan | play 10 games a week |
| 07:18.42 | Legorol | that's a good reason to keep people playing |
| 07:19.03 | Legorol | indeed, that has to do with the dynamics of the population though, and not much to do with rating/matchmaking |
| 07:19.16 | Xinhuan | the 2400 rated ppl in BG1 isn't anywhere near 2000 on BG9 |
| 07:19.41 | Legorol | which is a flaw in the system |
| 07:19.51 | Legorol | but that still doesn't change the following: |
| 07:19.54 | Xinhuan | for example, you can find plenty of ret pallies that are gladiator in every BG - except BG9 |
| 07:20.04 | Legorol | you had an issue with 2200 rated teams playing against 1900 rated teams |
| 07:20.17 | Cide | that's becuase BG9 is so pro |
| 07:20.20 | Legorol | that's fine as long as the actual rating of both those teams is 2200 and 1900 and neither skewed their rating |
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| 07:20.35 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v MoonWolf] by ChanServ |
| 07:21.32 | Legorol | Xinhuan: bottom line is, whilst it might psychologically suck to come up against a high-rated team when you are low rated because they have a member with low PR< |
| 07:21.33 | Legorol | , |
| 07:21.47 | Legorol | if Elo is doing its job, it doesn't actually affect your ability to reach your intended rating |
| 07:22.04 | Xinhuan | it increases the number of games you have to play to reach intended rating |
| 07:22.18 | Xinhuan | time people may not have |
| 07:22.34 | Legorol | I'm not sure i can agree or disagree that it increases the number of games |
| 07:22.43 | Legorol | i'd have to do the math |
| 07:23.05 | Xinhuan | they might eventually reach 2000, but only through winning a lot of 1800s, while losing to 2200s a lot mroe often than they really should |
| 07:23.17 | Legorol | uhm... hold on there |
| 07:23.29 | Legorol | what do you mean by "losing to 2200s a lot more often than they should" |
| 07:23.35 | Xinhuan | matchmaking system |
| 07:23.41 | Legorol | that's irrelevant |
| 07:23.55 | Legorol | under Elo, your expected number of wins against a 2200 (no matter your rating) is fine |
| 07:23.58 | Xinhuan | while i concede that in ELO, you wil eventually reach your intended skill level TR |
| 07:24.09 | Xinhuan | but because of skewed matchmaking, you now take more games to reach it, than less |
| 07:24.14 | Legorol | you don't necessarily do that by always losig to a higher and winning to a lower |
| 07:24.52 | Legorol | Xinhuan: are you sure you know how the Elo formula works? Because the whole point of it is that it doesn't matter whether you play against a higher or lower rated team than you |
| 07:25.02 | Xinhuan | yes |
| 07:25.02 | Legorol | the risk/reward compensates for that |
| 07:25.07 | Legorol | ok |
| 07:25.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@sparknet-agw0.abo.fi) |
| 07:25.28 | Legorol | in fact one might argue that if your skill is good, you *want* to play against high-rated teams |
| 07:25.35 | Legorol | that's your fastest way up |
| 07:25.38 | Xinhuan | i can play 10 games from 1500 to 1650 (15 points per win) |
| 07:25.47 | Xinhuan | or i can play 10 games, and only reach 1600 |
| 07:25.47 | Tekkub | good god you're still going on about this crap? |
| 07:25.55 | Xinhuan | because some 1800 team decided to skew matchmaking down |
| 07:26.09 | Legorol | Xinhuan: except that there is a chance that you happen to beat that 1800 |
| 07:26.15 | Xinhuan | that chance is low |
| 07:26.16 | Legorol | in which case you gain a lot |
| 07:26.18 | Xinhuan | so on the average |
| 07:26.24 | Legorol | that low chance is taken into account in the Elo formula |
| 07:26.24 | Xinhuan | you you need more games |
| 07:26.29 | Xinhuan | prove it |
| 07:26.36 | Legorol | *sigh* |
| 07:27.37 | Cide | elo doesn't guarantee that you will reach your true rating in X games, only that you will do it if you keep playing, right? |
| 07:27.38 | Xinhuan | my whole point is, the system is flawed, your point is it is not |
| 07:27.44 | Cide | so I don't see what your point is, Xinhuan |
| 07:28.04 | Xinhuan | that is my point |
| 07:28.19 | Cide | how is that flawed at all? |
| 07:29.16 | Xinhuan | flawed matchmaking skews the number of games it takes to reach your true rating |
| 07:29.29 | Xinhuan | and not everyone has time to play arena everyday |
| 07:29.33 | Cide | it's not flawed unless you define the desired properties |
| 07:29.40 | Cide | I don't think you have |
| 07:30.00 | Xinhuan | desired properties is to be matched against players near your rating |
| 07:30.09 | Cide | maybe blizzard disagrees |
| 07:30.26 | Cide | it's also not flawed unless you define HOW close the opposing teams' rating must be |
| 07:30.28 | Xinhuan | why does pvp forums have so much complaints then? :) |
| 07:30.39 | Cide | because people disagree with blizzard? happens all the time |
| 07:30.41 | Kalroth | Because CS players are dumb. |
| 07:30.44 | Corrodias | because people who pvp are masochists |
| 07:30.46 | Xinhuan | why is blizzard introducing a new "hidden rating system" |
| 07:30.50 | Cide | I'm pretty sure the matchmaker extends its search criteria as time goes on |
| 07:31.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Corgan (i=Corgan@63.249.58.84) |
| 07:31.03 | Cide | besides |
| 07:31.14 | Kalroth | Xinhuan: Because people are exploiting the arena team setup. |
| 07:31.18 | Cide | I'm pretty sure they aren't looking into minimizing the amount of games it takes to reach one's true rating |
| 07:31.27 | Cide | that would be stupid |
| 07:31.30 | Cide | and it's an mmorpg |
| 07:31.34 | Cide | if you don't have time, don't play |
| 07:31.43 | Cide | or play less and it'll take longer |
| 07:31.43 | Xinhuan | if a system is exploitable, then it is flawed, yes? |
| 07:31.56 | Cide | in a sense, sure |
| 07:32.01 | Cide | no system is perfect |
| 07:32.16 | Kalroth | You can move a chess piece when your opponent isn't looking. Is chess flawed? |
| 07:32.43 | Corrodias | that will get you thrown out of the tournament, Kalroth |
| 07:32.47 | NightHawkTheSane | Kalroth: thats a poor analogy, really |
| 07:33.05 | Kalroth | Why? The exploiting with arena points is fucking around with teams |
| 07:33.16 | Cide | it is a poor analogy :P |
| 07:33.17 | NightHawkTheSane | but is any of that explicitly illegal? |
| 07:33.40 | Xinhuan | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10544541923&pageNo=1&sid=2000#4 |
| 07:33.42 | Kalroth | With the hidden rating, it's discouraged. :) |
| 07:33.47 | Xinhuan | "We’re also doing what we can to address the fact that players that don’t have high ratings can often still get steamrolled by highly rated players that are starting new teams, helping friends, etc. " |
| 07:33.47 | Corrodias | oh well. we should just be handing out free unlimited pvp gear to anyone who is on a team |
| 07:33.53 | Legorol | Elo takes care of getting to your rating. Blizzard matchmaking takes care of providing "pleasant play experience". That's how I look at it. |
| 07:33.57 | Xinhuan | blizzard acknwledges it is a problem |
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| 07:34.09 | Legorol | People will QQ when they lose to high rated teams, even when there's nothing wrong with that loss under Elo. End of. |
| 07:34.22 | NightHawkTheSane | Kalroth: discourage ~= illegal. moving a chess piece is illegal, and will have you removed from a tourny. blizzard will not ban you for fucking with your rating via these known exploits, yes? |
| 07:34.59 | Legorol | Xinhuan: Blizzard cares somewhat about perceived play experience |
| 07:35.16 | Kalroth | NightHawkTheSane: I wasn't talking about a chess tournament. I'm quite sure that if you fuck around in an arena tournament you'll get kicked too. |
| 07:35.33 | Legorol | and does, in addition to a mathematically functioning rating system, introduce a matchmaking system (which is not necessary for Elo to work) in order to give more fun to people |
| 07:35.34 | Kalroth | NightHawkTheSane: I was talking about a friend game of chess with your friend(s). Just like a round of arena might be. |
| 07:35.51 | Xinhuan | if everything is perfect, you would eventually reach a team rating where your win/lose ratio is 50/50 |
| 07:35.52 | Cide | Xinhuan: the hidden rating would be exactly what most other elo games has |
| 07:36.09 | Xinhuan | and remain at that rating |
| 07:36.11 | NightHawkTheSane | Kalroth: still a poor analogy, arena seasons are as much 'tournaments' as anything else. a 'friendly chess game' would be like a practice arena game :p |
| 07:36.15 | Legorol | Xinhuan: not quite |
| 07:36.24 | Xinhuan | maybe not |
| 07:36.25 | Legorol | you will remain at that rating, but your win/loss ratio could be very different from that |
| 07:36.38 | Legorol | Elo doesn't require a 50/50 win loss ratio to maintain your rating |
| 07:36.50 | Kalroth | NightHawkTheSane: Arena seasons aren't supervised. :) |
| 07:36.57 | Legorol | the 50/50 win loss ratio only arises if you have reached your intended rating *AND* are getting matched against people of the same rating |
| 07:37.03 | NightHawkTheSane | Kalroth: which is probably part of the problem ;) |
| 07:37.05 | Legorol | the 2nd part of that statement is optional |
| 07:37.22 | Xinhuan | i think they should just revamp the whole system instead of adding yet another rating heh |
| 07:37.30 | Cide | kalgan put it well |
| 07:37.34 | Legorol | i keep saying this over and over again: you do not need to play against people of the same rating to achieve and maintain your actual rating |
| 07:37.36 | Cide | "It's under the hood less because it's important to hide it, and more because all these ratings start getting really confusing. It's already more confusing than I'd like that we have two ratings. =[" |
| 07:37.46 | Cide | the hidden rating is really all they would need |
| 07:37.56 | Cide | but like I said before to someone (Neuro maybe?) |
| 07:38.02 | Cide | they need to think about intuitivity too |
| 07:38.05 | Cide | it's, after all, a game |
| 07:38.13 | Legorol | aye |
| 07:38.22 | Legorol | which is why they *try to* make you play against teams of the same rating |
| 07:38.35 | Legorol | even though they don't have to if all they care about is gettting you to the right rating |
| 07:38.52 | Legorol | On a subjective note: |
| 07:39.12 | Legorol | those teams that are stuck on 1900 and keep losing to 2400 and QQ-ing that they can't get to 2000: maybe they aren't actually good enough for 2000? |
| 07:39.22 | Legorol | It's not a leveling up process like 1-70 is |
| 07:39.29 | Legorol | and people will QQ about anything |
| 07:39.34 | Cide | besides |
| 07:39.41 | Cide | losing to 2400 teams shouldn't give you a very high rating loss |
| 07:39.53 | Legorol | it's not like you are guaranteed to keep going up in rating |
| 07:40.04 | Cide | so the QQ sounds unwarranted, unless there's like a gap where people have completely stopped playing |
| 07:40.16 | Cide | but that wouldn't happen and it would solve itself quickly |
| 07:40.30 | Legorol | Xinhuan only made one valid point, and i'm way too braindead to do the math for that: |
| 07:40.50 | Legorol | which is how will you reach your intended rating fastest, if you play teams of lower, similar or higher rating than your intended rating |
| 07:40.56 | NightHawkTheSane | Legorol: well, the thing is, the 1900 teams have a point, if (and only if) the 2400 teams they're playing have a rating lower than that in the system |
| 07:41.15 | NightHawkTheSane | (and, specifically, are artificially keeping it there) |
| 07:41.20 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: i already touched on that. I assumed that team rating is representative and hasn't been skewed. |
| 07:41.26 | Cide | Legorol: it's an interesting discussion, but I don't see its relevance |
| 07:41.32 | Legorol | and i also said that screwing the matchmaker doesn't screw the rating necessarily |
| 07:41.32 | NightHawkTheSane | yeah, assuming that, i agree :p |
| 07:41.33 | Neuro_Medivh | as I said, P-Rating should be all a team has, and T-Rating should be calculated based on avg P-rating |
| 07:41.39 | Cide | I'd be interested in knowing the results of that though |
| 07:41.50 | Cide | Neuro_Medivh: except P-rating should be permanent |
| 07:41.57 | Cide | like the hidden ratings |
| 07:41.57 | Legorol | Cide:i agree with you on all counts |
| 07:42.01 | Neuro_Medivh | define permanent? |
| 07:42.02 | Xinhuan | someone could write a program to do simulations ;p |
| 07:42.10 | Cide | can't do a program |
| 07:42.13 | Cide | you'd need to do a study |
| 07:42.17 | Neuro_Medivh | as in, from one season to another? |
| 07:42.21 | Cide | it shouldn't reset if you leave or join an arena team, Neuro_Medivh |
| 07:42.27 | Neuro_Medivh | Oh, I agree |
| 07:42.36 | Cide | that too, but it probably doesn't matter as much |
| 07:42.37 | Legorol | NightHawkTheSane: screwing the matchmaker is fine, as long as your TR remains representative |
| 07:42.48 | Neuro_Medivh | in my system, teams only have a value based on the avg of the p-rating of the 5 people competing at the time |
| 07:42.50 | Cide | it should probably reset for each season actually |
| 07:43.14 | Cide | but I haven't thought it through enough |
| 07:43.29 | Neuro_Medivh | and at the end of the week, the t-rating for the team is based on the avg p-rating of members, times their personal contribution to the team |
| 07:43.43 | Cide | personal contribution shouldn't affect it |
| 07:43.49 | Neuro_Medivh | of course it should |
| 07:43.52 | Cide | nope |
| 07:43.57 | Legorol | actually now that i think about it: i think Neuro_Medivh's idea is really bad |
| 07:43.58 | Cide | that discourages >N people playing for N-brackets |
| 07:44.04 | Neuro_Medivh | otherwise, a team could stock 5 1500 to lower their rating |
| 07:44.18 | Cide | of course you should only get points if you contribute |
| 07:44.26 | Cide | but you shouldn't get more points if you contribute more |
| 07:44.33 | Cide | it should be all or nothing |
| 07:44.38 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: your idea to base TR on avg. of PR is bad because currently, weird PRs only screw the matchmaker |
| 07:44.44 | Legorol | but don't affect TR, and therefore don't affect Elo |
| 07:44.51 | Neuro_Medivh | no, I meant, your p-rating contributes to your team's rating based on how much you played that week |
| 07:44.54 | Legorol | if you allowed PR to influence TR, you will start screwing with Elo too |
| 07:44.59 | Cide | why? |
| 07:45.22 | Neuro_Medivh | Legorol, P-Rating would be the only real stat. T-Rating is merely a function of P-rating |
| 07:45.32 | Neuro_Medivh | and it changes from fight to fight |
| 07:46.34 | Neuro_Medivh | from a holistic point of view, a team is only as good as it's players |
| 07:46.42 | Cide | this is an interesting quote from kalgan btw |
| 07:46.44 | Xinhuan | there should only be PR and PR alone :) |
| 07:46.49 | Cide | ". However, for a rating system to reasonably zero in on the skill of a single player in a game with teammates it takes a number of games approximately equal to ten times the number of players participating on that player's team. " |
| 07:47.06 | Cide | Xinhuan: yep |
| 07:47.17 | Legorol | As far as I can most of the problems in Arena are because people are exploiting the short-term non-equilibrium behaviours of Elo |
| 07:47.17 | Cide | but for the interest of intuitivity, TR should be displayed, even if it isn't used for much |
| 07:47.19 | Neuro_Medivh | Xinhuan, agreed, but there would have to be temporary metric of a teams total value |
| 07:47.29 | Legorol | and the ratings aren't allowed to equilibrate |
| 07:47.32 | Xinhuan | Neuro_Medivh: only for the purpose of matchmaking |
| 07:47.37 | Neuro_Medivh | correct |
| 07:47.37 | Cide | and point scoring |
| 07:47.46 | Cide | as in, new rating calculations |
| 07:47.53 | Neuro_Medivh | point scoring would be your p-rating vs their avg p-rating |
| 07:48.01 | Cide | exactly |
| 07:48.02 | Cide | hence TR |
| 07:48.17 | Legorol | Xinhuan: why matchmaking |
| 07:48.19 | Neuro_Medivh | right... I dislike the entire concept of TR because a team is just a collection of players |
| 07:48.25 | Legorol | guys, why do we keep coming back to matchmaking |
| 07:48.29 | Legorol | who cares about matchmaking |
| 07:48.36 | Cide | agreed |
| 07:48.37 | Legorol | it's irrelevant if the scoring system works as intended |
| 07:48.47 | Xinhuan | dude, i didn't say matchmaking would affect PR |
| 07:48.54 | Xinhuan | i merely said PR would affect matchmaking |
| 07:48.59 | Cide | and all the scoring system needs to do is keep a permanent rating for each player |
| 07:49.16 | Cide | Xinhuan: which is what the new "hidden rating" (i.e. permanent PR) does |
| 07:49.21 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@client0021.vpn.ox.ac.uk) |
| 07:49.32 | Legorol | Cide and Xinhuan: which is what is not necessary |
| 07:49.40 | Cide | what is not necessary? |
| 07:49.44 | Neuro_Medivh | actually |
| 07:49.46 | Legorol | it's not necessary to do anything more complicated than match teams at random |
| 07:49.51 | Cide | I'm aware |
| 07:49.52 | Legorol | from a purely scoring pov |
| 07:49.52 | Neuro_Medivh | there is ONE issue |
| 07:49.57 | Neuro_Medivh | that this doesn't cover |
| 07:50.05 | Xinhuan | you want to match teams near your ranking to have a fun gameplay experience |
| 07:50.06 | Cide | but in the interest of the players, matchmaking has to occur |
| 07:50.10 | Neuro_Medivh | end-of-season rewards |
| 07:50.11 | Xinhuan | hence it is relevant |
| 07:50.12 | Legorol | Cide: indeed |
| 07:50.22 | Legorol | Xinhuan: absolutely |
| 07:50.27 | Cide | it's not relevant to the discussion, but of course it's relevant to the gameplay system as a whole |
| 07:50.28 | Legorol | i never disagreed with the fun aspect of it |
| 07:50.40 | Legorol | but the whole matchmaking discussion started with "1900s can't get to 2000" |
| 07:50.53 | Legorol | that's just plain QQ |
| 07:50.55 | Cide | well |
| 07:51.02 | Neuro_Medivh | If there's no T-rating, or it's a function of P-rating, then the last week all the top players could come together and make a team |
| 07:51.03 | Xinhuan | well do the math! |
| 07:51.03 | Cide | it could be true in one scenario |
| 07:51.15 | Xinhuan | it does affect short-term ratings |
| 07:51.15 | Cide | Legorol: in theory they should always reach their true ranking |
| 07:51.19 | Xinhuan | maybe not long-term |
| 07:51.48 | Legorol | Cide: actually the problem is K-values |
| 07:51.58 | Cide | Legorol: in practice, if you always face the top 1% of the arena teams, you'll most likely ONLY MOVE DOWN in ratings, unless you belong in that 1% yourself |
| 07:52.08 | Xinhuan | a good system would reach "equilibrium" quickly, rather than taking very very long to reach it |
| 07:52.14 | Cide | even if your true rating is 1800, you'd still end up sub-1500 |
| 07:52.19 | Cide | in practice |
| 07:52.22 | Legorol | Cide: Elo would still cover that, by letting you win huge when you do win, unless |
| 07:52.26 | Cide | aye |
| 07:52.27 | Legorol | and this is the big point |
| 07:52.28 | Cide | in theory |
| 07:52.29 | Legorol | unless there is a cap |
| 07:52.33 | Cide | but in practice that wouldn't ever happen |
| 07:52.34 | Legorol | and the problem is, there is a cap |
| 07:52.44 | Legorol | that's a much bigger problem |
| 07:52.47 | Xinhuan | you can have a ELO system that takes 5 months to reach your true tanking, or you can have a ELO system that takes 3 months instead |
| 07:52.57 | Xinhuan | and that depends a lot on the matchmaking system |
| 07:53.05 | Xinhuan | how fast it reaches equilibrium |
| 07:53.05 | Cide | and? |
| 07:53.14 | Xinhuan | if you matchmaked by pure random, it will take longer |
| 07:53.25 | Cide | but it will guarantee that you do reach it |
| 07:53.30 | Legorol | Xinhuan: prove it :P |
| 07:53.37 | Xinhuan | ya, but is a season's 6 months duration enough? |
| 07:53.41 | Neuro_Medivh | wow, Elo at wikipedia has lots of theorycrafting about it =) |
| 07:53.51 | Legorol | Neuro_Medivh: sadly not enough :( |
| 07:53.56 | Legorol | it doesn't discuss convergence rate in enough detail |
| 07:53.59 | Cide | if you only play a defined subset of the population, Elo doesn't guarantee that you'll reach your proper all-population rating |
| 07:54.01 | Xinhuan | the variance is larger when you matchmake randomly |
| 07:54.04 | Cide | ^ @ Legorol |
| 07:54.34 | Xinhuan | the chances of meeting extremely low or high rated teams is that much larger |
| 07:54.44 | Cide | so the matchmaking does factor in.. but it's very easy to make it do its job, and very hard to make it result in such failures |
| 07:55.02 | Xinhuan | so while playing against these extremes doesn't move your TR much (you gain/lose very little, often just 3 points) |
| 07:55.09 | Xinhuan | you take much longer to reach your true TR |
| 07:55.15 | Drophole | guys |
| 07:55.24 | Drophole | I just saved up to 50% on my car insurance with geico |
| 07:55.30 | Legorol | lol |
| 07:55.32 | Neuro_Medivh | matchmaking is also important for the all-powerful 'fun factor' |
| 07:55.37 | Fisker- | I saved 100% |
| 07:55.40 | Fisker- | by not buying a car |
| 07:55.41 | Fisker- | 1-0 |
| 07:55.52 | Neuro_Medivh | cause, let's face it, no one wants to get their face smashed in all night by people far better than you |
| 07:55.53 | Cide | that was already agreed upon Neuro_Medivh :) |
| 07:55.53 | Drophole | Fisker- that sounds like the 100% file compression rm utility |
| 07:56.09 | Neuro_Medivh | like poor old Kimbo Slice |
| 07:56.09 | Drophole | Neuro_Medivh I do |
| 07:56.14 | Drophole | when I am playing 2k brackets |
| 07:56.16 | Fisker- | oh but it is Drophole |
| 07:56.19 | Drophole | i face gladiator teams a lot |
| 07:56.22 | Fisker- | 100% compression ratios are very really |
| 07:56.25 | Fisker- | bah |
| 07:56.26 | Drophole | and i learn from when they smash my face in |
| 07:56.28 | Fisker- | tired me is tired |
| 07:56.29 | Cide | anyway |
| 07:56.31 | Cide | I'm out |
| 07:56.38 | Drophole | just replicate how they control the frame |
| 07:56.42 | Cide | the signal:noise ratio went down with the advent of Drophole and Fisker- |
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| 07:56.48 | Drophole | and learn to turn it against them - if you face weak teams you already dominate |
| 07:56.48 | Legorol | lol |
| 07:56.50 | Drophole | what do you learn? |
| 07:56.52 | Xinhuan | i still believe that matchmaking will affect convergence rate, and hence ratings, if the season length isn't long enough :) |
| 07:57.03 | Cide | it will definitely affect convergence rate |
| 07:57.06 | Xinhuan | but hell if anyone is going to try to calculate that |
| 07:57.22 | Legorol | Xinhuan: agreed. At the same time time, there's also a healthy dose of unwarranted QQ-ing. |
| 07:57.26 | Cide | yep |
| 07:57.30 | Mikk | season long enough? |
| 07:57.35 | Mikk | you can go from 1500 to 2000 in a night |
| 07:57.39 | Cide | Legorol: definitely agreed |
| 07:57.49 | Xinhuan | yes mikk, that's due to the matchmaking system |
| 07:57.58 | Cide | which does a good job |
| 07:58.05 | Xinhuan | if it matchmaked by pure random, the same team might not have gone from 1500-2000 in the same night |
| 07:58.17 | Cide | but it might also have gone from 1500-2200 |
| 07:58.31 | Xinhuan | the variance is larger |
| 07:58.32 | Legorol | random loot is random, random matching is random |
| 07:58.36 | Cide | if the team could beat every other team on the BG, for example |
| 07:58.37 | Xinhuan | people prefer small variances |
| 07:58.50 | Mikk | pure random matchmaking has got to suck for a whole slew of reasons though |
| 07:58.56 | Cide | for sure |
| 07:59.00 | Cide | the biggest reason being "not fun" |
| 07:59.06 | Mikk | idd |
| 07:59.08 | Legorol | I think i just realised the golden truth in this whole conversation: |
| 07:59.24 | ccox | random != random |
| 07:59.31 | Legorol | Matchmaking to PvP is what DKP is to PvE: it's there to appease the QQ-ers, random is still random, and it's not strictly necessary. |
| 07:59.57 | Neuro_Medivh | and both can be gamed |
| 08:00.19 | Legorol | both are about a perceived sense of control |
| 08:00.23 | Neuro_Medivh | DKP is the biggest headache in the world |
| 08:00.35 | Cide | there's nothing wrong with the matchmaking imo |
| 08:00.55 | Cide | people just bitch because they don't like losing to a team with a bit higher rating |
| 08:01.08 | Legorol | besides, when that new 1500 rated person skews the avg. PR down so you get matched to a highly skilled player: i beleive that's working as intended |
| 08:01.16 | Neuro_Medivh | they'd bitch to losing to a team with lower rating too |
| 08:01.23 | Cide | yep |
| 08:01.25 | Neuro_Medivh | they'd just QQ =) |
| 08:01.27 | Cide | but that's a flaw with the current system |
| 08:01.31 | Xinhuan | well if you were 1500, and you matched up against a 2400, or a 800, your TR won't even move - that game would have been pointless |
| 08:01.35 | Cide | you can reset your rating |
| 08:01.37 | Cide | that's the flaw |
| 08:01.58 | Cide | Xinhuan: unless you win (or lose, respectively) |
| 08:02.01 | Legorol | Cide: we haven't strictly established yet though whether it does actually gain you anything |
| 08:02.09 | Cide | Legorol: to reset your rating? |
| 08:02.14 | Legorol | yes |
| 08:02.14 | Xinhuan | chances of that is miniscule ;p |
| 08:02.18 | Cide | I doubt it |
| 08:02.25 | Cide | but people do it |
| 08:02.27 | Cide | so it hurts other people |
| 08:02.42 | Neuro_Medivh | Blizzard should see Arena as a sub-game of the main experience, rather than trying to integrate it into the main game |
| 08:02.52 | Legorol | right, so it's like hoarding DKP and then blowing it on a tier piece even though your engineering one is better |
| 08:03.28 | Neuro_Medivh | Blizz should add more sub-games... like, racing, or gambling |
| 08:03.39 | Legorol | you already have gambling |
| 08:03.41 | Xinhuan | they need an ingame tetrinet |
| 08:03.42 | Legorol | it's called loot drops |
| 08:03.55 | Neuro_Medivh | el oh el =) |
| 08:04.19 | Neuro_Medivh | I'd like to play texas holdem in game for gold though... or even "Dragon Poker" |
| 08:04.29 | norgs | I don't suppose anyone knows why certain addons in the addons list appear in red? |
| 08:04.39 | Neuro_Medivh | or whatever gay name they wanna call it to get the govt off their back |
| 08:04.50 | Neuro_Medivh | norgs: those with opt dependencies |
| 08:04.53 | Legorol | norgs: out of date? |
| 08:05.11 | norgs | missing optioans? |
| 08:05.18 | Neuro_Medivh | No, they still work |
| 08:05.23 | norgs | missing optionals? |
| 08:05.27 | Neuro_Medivh | just, the game colors them red for some reason |
| 08:05.33 | Legorol | time for me to pass out |
| 08:05.34 | Legorol | gnight folks |
| 08:05.40 | ccox | red for me: auctioneer, bagnon, Enchantrix, OmniCC, Informant |
| 08:05.41 | norgs | nn lego |
| 08:05.46 | Xinhuan | gambling: "That's a mace-stun, followed by a Well-Timed improve hamestring and Fnatic Orcs wins this round!!!!!" |
| 08:05.56 | Xinhuan | yesterday's MLG 3v3 finals ;p |
| 08:06.12 | Xinhuan | i giggled at the "well timed improved hamstring |
| 08:06.14 | Xinhuan | " |
| 08:06.16 | Neuro_Medivh | for me, gatherer options show up red... but then, ever since last patch, gatherer has been crashing my client |
| 08:06.17 | ccox | not red: auc-adv and all other auc pieces, outfitter |
| 08:06.43 | ccox | gatherer hud is red, but gatherer itself is yellow |
| 08:06.48 | Neuro_Medivh | light_headed A-E are also red |
| 08:07.02 | ccox | and yes, gatherer causes problems right now |
| 08:07.02 | Neuro_Medivh | ccox: does gatherer crash your client as of last patch? |
| 08:07.04 | Xinhuan | switch to GatherMate and GatherHud! |
| 08:07.34 | Xinhuan | (uses 20% memory) |
| 08:07.44 | Cide | the fuck cares about memory again? |
| 08:07.51 | Cide | cheap memory is cheap |
| 08:08.01 | ccox | no client crashes from gatherer |
| 08:08.03 | Xinhuan | uses about half the CPU too |
| 08:08.05 | Xinhuan | onupdates |
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| 08:08.16 | Neuro_Medivh | that means it's half as good! |
| 08:08.25 | Cide | that's what you SHOULD say when you're talking about performance |
| 08:08.31 | Cide | why do people never ever learn? |
| 08:08.41 | Neuro_Medivh | Cide: because people are stupid |
| 08:08.45 | ccox | gatherer right now is just getting some frameXML errors (swatter) |
| 08:08.48 | Neuro_Medivh | and you can't fix stupid |
| 08:09.11 | Neuro_Medivh | ccox: hmm, it's actively crashing my client upon login |
| 08:09.28 | Cide | you can fix stupid, but not ignorant |
| 08:09.30 | Neuro_Medivh | I'm of the opinion it's a conflict |
| 08:09.37 | ccox | Neuro - no such problem here, could be Mac (me) versus Win issue |
| 08:09.37 | Neuro_Medivh | no, other way around Cide |
| 08:09.39 | Cide | fixing collective stupiditiy is difficult however |
| 08:09.54 | Neuro_Medivh | Ignorance is fixable, cause you just don't know any better |
| 08:10.01 | Cide | depends |
| 08:10.04 | Neuro_Medivh | stupid is, well, stupid |
| 08:10.05 | ccox | CIde - easier to fix the elections than the electorate :-) |
| 08:10.06 | Cide | maybe I got my definitions wrong |
| 08:10.23 | Neuro_Medivh | Ignorance = lack of knowledge. |
| 08:10.29 | Neuro_Medivh | Stupidity = lack of understanding |
| 08:10.48 | Cide | ok |
| 08:11.04 | Cide | I guess I was ignorant. |
| 08:11.07 | Xinhuan | actually memory use does affect performance - large memory use can imply using heaps of nested tables (inappropriate data structures) which slow down access to said data |
| 08:11.19 | Cide | no shit |
| 08:11.23 | Xinhuan | which are used in OnUpdates |
| 08:11.23 | Neuro_Medivh | speaking of elections, I'm ready for this one to be over... at this point, I don't even care who wins, just get the damn thing over with |
| 08:11.25 | Cide | of course it affects performance |
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| 08:11.36 | ccox | Xinhuan - it can, but is not directly correlated |
| 08:11.49 | ccox | Xinhuan - caches are an example of a negative correlation of memory usage and performance |
| 08:12.00 | Xinhuan | true |
| 08:12.10 | Xinhuan | but gatherer doesn't use caches ;p |
| 08:12.13 | ccox | Xinhuan - leaks are positively correlated, if they're large enough |
| 08:12.31 | Cide | higher memory usage implies lower memory usage for well designed systems |
| 08:12.33 | Neuro_Medivh | my memory has a leak in it =( |
| 08:12.34 | ccox | Xinhuan - and sometimes you just have a LOT of data to deal with |
| 08:12.40 | Cide | of course, you can design shitty ones too |
| 08:12.44 | Cide | but that's besides the point |
| 08:12.46 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: no, that's just old age |
| 08:12.50 | Cide | memory usage is not a measure of performance |
| 08:12.55 | Neuro_Medivh | tru dat |
| 08:13.30 | ccox | exception: memory usage is usually directly correlated to application launch time (both binary size and allocated on heap) |
| 08:13.40 | Neuro_Medivh | there's a correlation, but it's not direct, any more than clock speed = performance, or rpm = mph |
| 08:13.49 | Xinhuan | i think, my main point was, gathermate is better, in my opinion, memory use is just one aspect of why it is so |
| 08:13.59 | Cide | but never mention it first |
| 08:14.01 | Cide | mention it last |
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| 08:14.57 | ccox | also, make sure you are comparing like items there -- do they have the same database size, the same capabilities, etc. |
| 08:14.58 | Neuro_Medivh | memory usage is a sensitive topic... a small subset of people using a particular library used to claim that lower memory usage was the reason that library was 'better' |
| 08:15.13 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: yeah, I've run into folks like that |
| 08:15.20 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: all talk, no measurement |
| 08:15.30 | Xinhuan | gatherer goes to quite extreme lengths to hide its data from outside interference - it even removes the savedvar from _G[] |
| 08:15.32 | Tekkub | particular library? |
| 08:15.33 | Neuro_Medivh | when in fact, the lower mem usage was almost always caused by a complete lack of option interface |
| 08:15.42 | Neuro_Medivh | Tekkub: YOU KNOW WHO I MEAN |
| 08:15.43 | Xinhuan | and restores it only on a player logging out |
| 08:16.03 | Tekkub | lack of an option UI doesn't make it smaller :P |
| 08:16.25 | Neuro_Medivh | nor better |
| 08:16.32 | Tekkub | or rather, a properly down option UI won't take very much memory at all |
| 08:16.59 | Tekkub | but then there's also learning when an option UI is really needed |
| 08:17.05 | Xinhuan | let me ask you a question - do you think syncing data across a raid of 25, is slower or faster than raid scanning said data? |
| 08:17.15 | Neuro_Medivh | well, the time frame where this was an issue was back when BC was right about to be released |
| 08:17.46 | Xinhuan | in terms of cpu usgae |
| 08:17.49 | Neuro_Medivh | Xin, depends, is raid scanning a client or server-client function? |
| 08:17.55 | Xinhuan | client |
| 08:18.10 | Neuro_Medivh | well, syncing is server-client, so I would say raid scanning |
| 08:18.20 | Neuro_Medivh | is faster |
| 08:18.25 | Xinhuan | in the syncing method, each person only needs to evaluate its own data, and transmit it to the rest |
| 08:18.38 | Xinhuan | in the raid scanning method, each person scans its own data of all 25 raiders |
| 08:18.56 | Tekkub | syncing you have to process incoming data though |
| 08:19.07 | Xinhuan | exactly, so i'm wondering which would be better |
| 08:19.17 | Tekkub | which kinda feels like you're forcing combat log parsing (OLD combat log) |
| 08:19.22 | Xinhuan | i'm leaning towards raid scanning |
| 08:19.52 | Neuro_Medivh | again, if I were to guess, I'd say raid scanning, because transmitting and receiving data is more processor intensive |
| 08:19.53 | Tekkub | I'd lean toward avoiding comm if at all possible |
| 08:20.30 | Xinhuan | now let me put this question in context ;p |
| 08:20.31 | Tekkub | it cuts down the cost of processing inbound messages, and removes the whole "social" failure point |
| 08:20.43 | Neuro_Medivh | however, which is more accurate? |
| 08:20.46 | Xinhuan | the context is threat meters |
| 08:20.49 | Xinhuan | in 3.0 |
| 08:20.52 | Neuro_Medivh | I'd guess syncing is far more accurate |
| 08:21.06 | Tekkub | I know that's the context :P |
| 08:21.16 | Xinhuan | the threat API can query a unitID's threat on another unitID |
| 08:21.17 | Tekkub | I say get Zooty to fix the issues with the API |
| 08:21.39 | Xinhuan | so to obtain threat data on mobX, you can raidscan all raid unitIDs on mobX |
| 08:21.51 | Xinhuan | or you can have each player transmit its own data on mobX |
| 08:22.42 | Xinhuan | i didn't get a response on the "upcoming changes thread" Tekkub, so i dunno |
| 08:22.46 | Neuro_Medivh | so, is Zootfizzle like Slouken's new lackey, or just another dev? |
| 08:23.10 | Neuro_Medivh | so hard to keep up with UI forum on live these days, terrible s/n ration |
| 08:23.18 | Tekkub | if I meet Zooter at BC and he doesn't have a beard, I'm going to disown him |
| 08:23.38 | Xinhuan | why do yu think he has a beard |
| 08:23.39 | Tekkub | anywho past bedtime |
| 08:25.35 | Mikk | because tek wants everyone furry |
| 08:25.40 | Xinhuan | now let me add a twist to the raid scanning thing - you can't obtain threat values of a mob you aren't in combat with |
| 08:26.00 | Xinhuan | so if your tank or a pet engages a mob, you don't know your threat or your pet's threat on it, until you enter combat directly |
| 08:26.10 | Xinhuan | or the tank's threat |
| 08:26.43 | Neuro_Medivh | I would assume that not being in combat = 0 threat |
| 08:27.02 | Tekkub | Xinhuan, it doesn't matter unless you're reading raw numbers? |
| 08:27.05 | Xinhuan | you know how sending in a pet to attack puts you in combat right? |
| 08:27.12 | Xinhuan | it doesn't count |
| 08:27.26 | Xinhuan | you can't obtain your pet's threat on the mob your pet is attacking |
| 08:27.30 | Tekkub | you have no threat in relation to it, so it doesn't matter! |
| 08:27.31 | Xinhuan | until you buff, or do damage |
| 08:27.38 | Tekkub | how bout attack it from the other angle |
| 08:27.59 | Xinhuan | you would have to estimate your pet/tanks's threat on it before you statr doing your damage ;p |
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| 10:43.22 | Shirik | hdb: cdrom_pc_intr: Drive appears confused |
| 10:43.27 | Shirik | irq 18: nobody cared |
| 10:43.34 | Shirik | Awesome kernel panic ^ |
| 10:43.43 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 10:44.01 | nevcairiel | your drive is confused, an nobody cares about it |
| 10:44.20 | Shirik | It sounds depressed |
| 10:51.21 | zenzio | a coworker sent me a line of code a friend of his sent, from an online auction site... "sqlDA.ConnectionCommand.CommandTimeout = 300 ' 2 minutes" |
| 10:51.21 | Dezzimal | time to take your PC on the Dr. Phil show |
| 10:51.56 | Dezzimal | maybe they're metric minutes |
| 10:52.05 | zenzio | or just VB minutes |
| 10:52.10 | Dezzimal | or canadian minutes |
| 10:52.37 | krka_ | maybe it used to say = 120, but they changed the code and ignored changing the comment... |
| 10:52.56 | Dezzimal | rationality is not an option here |
| 10:53.00 | zenzio | I'm sure the reason made sense at some point, that doesn't make it any less fun now krka |
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| 11:09.21 | Shirik | Hey check it out |
| 11:09.21 | Shirik | Shiibot didn't lock the channel due to netsplit |
| 11:10.19 | Fisker- | http://www.ministry.dk/lol.jpg <-hahaha retards |
| 11:11.11 | Shirik | awesome |
| 11:12.13 | Fisker- | I would've sued for ad revenue >:3 |
| 11:17.15 | Fisker- | HOLY MOTHER OF GOD |
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| 11:17.34 | Fisker- | First a developer is encouraging users to download a game over bittorrent and buy a serial |
| 11:17.51 | Fisker- | Now he's telling them to make a copy of the english version (the german one was released first) and release it on bittorent |
| 11:17.52 | Fisker- | :DDD |
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| 11:18.58 | Arrowmaster | because they were registered users? |
| 11:19.12 | Arrowmaster | or did you actually teach it about netsplits? |
| 11:19.18 | Arrowmaster | im +w... |
| 11:19.23 | Fisker- | >:3? |
| 11:19.24 | Arrowmaster | i would have goatse'd all their visitors |
| 11:19.26 | Arrowmaster | like i said, waiting for legal backlash when somebody gets a virus |
| 11:19.40 | Fisker- | It's pretty funny |
| 11:19.52 | Fisker- | the dev going "Download and copy this game please" |
| 11:20.00 | Fisker- | The admin going "Please don't link to any downloads" |
| 11:20.00 | Fisker- | >:D |
| 11:21.49 | amro | what's the commandline flag to disable sound? |
| 11:22.21 | Shirik | for WoW? |
| 11:22.26 | amro | yes |
| 11:22.29 | Maldivia | -nosound I think |
| 11:23.07 | Maldivia | yep, -nosound |
| 11:23.53 | amro | thanks |
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| 11:32.49 | batrick | morning |
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| 11:38.56 | Fisker- | Totally abuse though Arrowmaster >:E |
| 11:39.00 | Fisker- | The game isn't out in the US |
| 11:39.09 | Fisker- | they're hoping that people warez it and buy it through the EU retailer |
| 11:39.22 | Fisker- | So basically stealing money from the US supplier >:D |
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| 13:42.32 | *** topic/#wowuidev is http://wowuidev.pastey.net/ | 2.4.x ToC: 20400 | #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting | Happy Birthday Jelly! |
| 13:47.36 | wereHamster | try.not.to.laugh.out.loud. After three hours where the teacher explained design patterns, someone asks 'but what are they good for'? |
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| 13:50.48 | Maldivia | wereHamster: I'm trying |
| 13:50.59 | Lopeppeppy | ..... if the student doesn't get it, they never will.... |
| 13:51.31 | wereHamster | s/the student/half of the class/ - unfortunately |
| 13:52.20 | Lopeppeppy | Ah. Then the lecturer needs to go back and examine his notes and add a wee bit in about the obvious uses, since they are not obvious to all. |
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| 13:54.39 | ZorbaTHut | I actually side with the student asking the question on this one, myself ;) |
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| 14:09.06 | kneeki | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:09.12 | Lopeppeppy | Morning. |
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| 14:39.26 | Shirik|Ghost | has Shiibot stopped being a bad boy? |
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| 14:40.02 | Shirik | er |
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| 14:41.19 | Shirik2 | apparently my laptop is being bad boy instead |
| 14:41.36 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Ecole] by ChanServ |
| 14:41.44 | zenzelezz | keep making your excuses, we know you just lack technical know-how =) |
| 14:41.56 | Shirik|Ecole | so we're an hour and a half into the trade day |
| 14:42.03 | Shirik|Ecole | and we're already -500 on DJIA? |
| 14:42.13 | Lopeppeppy | DJIA? |
| 14:42.18 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, duh,nevermind. |
| 14:42.28 | Shirik|Ecole | I think they actually changed that |
| 14:42.32 | Shirik|Ecole | what's it called now, INDU? |
| 14:43.01 | Josh_Borke | who cares |
| 14:43.08 | cbreak | apple stocks dropped even more. I wonder why. |
| 14:43.12 | Shirik|Ecole | Good |
| 14:43.20 | cbreak | and blizzard stocks |
| 14:43.28 | cbreak | and google stocks |
| 14:43.33 | Shirik|Ecole | oh ok: We started -200 at open |
| 14:43.40 | Shirik|Ecole | so it's not quite that bad |
| 14:44.13 | |pez| | Stocks yay, or nai? |
| 14:44.37 | Shirik|Ecole | heh, I'm watching the ticker live on CNN |
| 14:44.46 | Shirik|Ecole | and I go to look at it, it says -500, then I turn to IRC for a second |
| 14:44.49 | Shirik|Ecole | turn around again and it's -567 |
| 14:45.01 | |pez| | I'll be guessing "nai" then. |
| 14:45.03 | Shirik|Ecole | I love our economy |
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| 14:45.19 | cbreak | gravity rocks. :) |
| 14:45.42 | |pez| | So, why are we following the stocks today? |
| 14:45.53 | Shirik|Ecole | because I'm in the cafeteria and that's what's on |
| 14:46.39 | |pez| | Ah, so no special reason then. |
| 14:46.49 | Shirik|Ecole | so what happened to this bailout plan that was supposed to save the economy? |
| 14:47.05 | cbreak | I think it got passed |
| 14:47.08 | cbreak | and they wanted more |
| 14:47.09 | |pez| | I think it got a pass. |
| 14:47.12 | cbreak | about 12 hours later |
| 14:47.44 | Shirik|Ecole | funny, we have this policy against ransoms because if we comply they will only want more |
| 14:47.45 | |pez| | I hope you guys get some decent people to run your country soon. :P |
| 14:48.02 | |pez| | Decent people who'll fix your economy. |
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| 14:48.15 | zenzelezz | don't count on it |pez|, you've seen their presidential candidates |
| 14:48.41 | Shirik|Ecole | Obama's inexperienced and McCain, while the senator of my state; I never voted for him |
| 14:48.47 | |pez| | Well, who's the lesser evil, Obama or McCain? |
| 14:48.59 | zenzelezz | no |
| 14:49.05 | Shirik|Ecole | ha |
| 14:49.08 | |pez| | inexperienced doesn't automagically mean he'll fail horribly though. |
| 14:49.11 | Lopeppeppy | No is pretty correct |
| 14:49.13 | Shirik|Ecole | no it doesn't |
| 14:49.20 | Shirik|Ecole | but it does mean we have to be careful |
| 14:49.30 | Shirik|Ecole | I do expect Obama to win |
| 14:49.54 | Shirik|Ecole | I'm going to sound very evil for saying this, too, so please don't take this as a valid way to judge me |
| 14:50.02 | |pez| | Imagine if McCain dies, and you get Palin instead! |
| 14:50.02 | Shirik|Ecole | but I also expect him to be assasinated |
| 14:50.13 | Josh_Borke | Shirik|Ecole: as if we need a valid reason to judge you |
| 14:50.21 | cbreak | and cain dies from old age. |
| 14:50.27 | Josh_Borke | |pez|: please don't say such terrifying things |
| 14:50.29 | cbreak | so elect the vice president instead :) |
| 14:50.44 | |pez| | Shirik|Ecole: Cause he's black, or democrat? or? |
| 14:51.12 | Shirik|Ecole | I'm not racist, but the former. I have nothing against him, and I think the country could benefit from it, but there's a lot of people in redneck country that don't think the same way I do |
| 14:51.28 | |pez| | Thought so. |
| 14:51.32 | Shirik|Ecole | and all it takes is one crazy person |
| 14:52.02 | |pez| | Let's hope the people who are supposed to keep him safe, keeps him safe. |
| 14:52.05 | Lopeppeppy | And lord knows we have those. |
| 14:52.21 | Lopeppeppy | |pez| - Vantage Point. |
| 14:52.43 | |pez| | whatnow? |
| 14:52.43 | Gnarfoz | movies vs. reality yay |
| 14:52.53 | |pez| | Place of easy assanation? |
| 14:53.13 | ShaneSveller | who says there aren't racist idiots working to protect the POTUS, who'll accidentally leave a gap in his security? |
| 14:53.15 | Lopeppeppy | Doesn't mean it's not a valid example, just because it's fiction. |
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| 14:54.20 | ShaneSveller | I just don't want the former mayor of BFE, Alaska to be a heart attack away from being the first woman president. |
| 14:54.40 | ShaneSveller | I don't care that she's a woman, I care that she makes Obama look like a seasoned pro, and that McCain is the oldest candidate in history |
| 14:55.14 | Shirik|Ecole | tbh, I really wish we had Hillary |
| 14:55.18 | Shirik|Ecole | I would have voted for her in a heartbeat |
| 14:55.36 | cbreak | I think she was an opportunistic idiot. |
| 14:55.47 | Shirik|Ecole | why do you say that? |
| 14:55.58 | Lopeppeppy | She didn't create the opportunity, so don't blame her for taking it when it was offered. |
| 14:56.00 | cbreak | because that's what I think :) |
| 14:56.19 | cbreak | (I think obama is an oportunistic idiot too) |
| 14:56.34 | Shirik|Ecole | I think her husband did extremely well, and that could help her at least in the first year |
| 14:56.44 | Shirik|Ecole | that she has someone to lean on to get "into the swing of things" |
| 14:56.53 | ShaneSveller | I think anyone who garners the support of his or her party is going to be largely considered to be a douche, because of the sort of people the parties throw their support behind. |
| 14:57.07 | Gnarfoz | Lopeppeppy: uhhh look up opportunism ;p |
| 14:57.40 | Shirik|Ecole | ~dict opportunism |
| 14:57.46 | Shirik|Ecole | Having opportunistic quality |
| 14:57.49 | Shirik|Ecole | ah |
| 14:57.52 | cbreak | they are opportunists because they have no clear line, but change their opinion depending on who they want to please at the moment. |
| 14:57.53 | Shirik|Ecole | a bit better |
| 14:58.18 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't think the second half holds true, Gnarfoz, but that's just me |
| 14:58.19 | Lopeppeppy | Okay, if you go with that definition, sure... opportunistic often is understood as someone who actively DOES the creating, not just someone who takes what is offered. |
| 14:58.32 | Gnarfoz | in any case, saying "they didn't create the opportunity, so don't blame them" is kind of... well it doesn't make sens :> |
| 14:58.37 | Shirik|Ecole | "seeking immediate advantage with little regard for ultimate consequences" ... "without regard for the consequences of others" |
| 14:59.05 | Gnarfoz | hm never heard that definition, but you obviously did, sooo, well I'm just not used to that definition. heh ^^ |
| 14:59.26 | cbreak | the main problems those americans have |
| 14:59.30 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't use the word so :) |
| 14:59.31 | cbreak | is that they only have two notable parties |
| 14:59.39 | cbreak | so the people have to try to please everyone |
| 14:59.47 | cbreak | and are spineless opportunists by definition |
| 14:59.47 | Shirik|Ecole | I would consider that good |
| 15:00.22 | Shirik|Ecole | multi-party ( > 2) systems seem to favor extremism and have issues coming to an agreement when a widespread vote comes along |
| 15:00.32 | Shirik|Ecole | Of course, I could have just been brainwashed by society on that |
| 15:00.34 | cbreak | it works well in my country... |
| 15:01.03 | Shirik|Ecole | I think that favoring everyone is generally good |
| 15:01.07 | Gnarfoz | also, if you have to please everyone (at least to make them vote for you), how likely is it that you'll keep many of those promises :> |
| 15:01.10 | zenzelezz | works fairly well in my country too |
| 15:01.33 | Shirik|Ecole | Gnarfoz: Problem: Too many people are stupid and don't realize that these promises conflict |
| 15:01.57 | Shirik|Ecole | example: Bush who said he'll do everything, including the war, without comment on where exactly the money comes from for it |
| 15:02.04 | cbreak | they don't actually favour everyone |
| 15:02.09 | cbreak | they try to please everyone |
| 15:02.15 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (n=soufron@212.99.101.3) |
| 15:02.37 | Shirik|Ecole | Problem 2: 2 term limit |
| 15:02.39 | cbreak | compromises aren't formed by forgetting everything as soon as you speak with someone else, but by discussing |
| 15:02.47 | Shirik|Ecole | Look at Bush now, he can do whatever he wants |
| 15:02.49 | Gnarfoz | no term limits here, yay :> |
| 15:02.53 | Shirik|Ecole | because he knows he won't be reelected |
| 15:02.57 | Shirik|Ecole | his career is over |
| 15:03.01 | Shirik|Ecole | what does he care |
| 15:03.13 | zenzelezz | what he does will impact his party |
| 15:03.21 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't like his party anyway |
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| 15:03.30 | zenzelezz | that has nothing to do with it |
| 15:03.31 | Shirik|Ecole | and I don't think his party likes him |
| 15:04.03 | Gnarfoz | I don't think many people at all like him, regardless of party or country ;D |
| 15:04.30 | Shirik|Ecole | occasionally I wonder if Al Qaieda likes him |
| 15:04.34 | cbreak | how many americans are there? |
| 15:04.34 | Gnarfoz | lol |
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| 15:04.41 | Gnarfoz | 330~ mil? |
| 15:04.42 | Shirik|Ecole | before him, I don't really think I had ever heard of them |
| 15:04.45 | cbreak | I read polls that 20% of the americans like him |
| 15:04.46 | Shirik|Ecole | think of the publicity they're getting now |
| 15:05.10 | Gnarfoz | heh, ever heard of metrification? ;D |
| 15:05.17 | Atriace | Are all of the changes in the LK API present in the 3.0.2 patch? |
| 15:05.23 | Gnarfoz | Atriace: yes |
| 15:05.35 | Shirik|Ecole | metrification? |
| 15:05.40 | Shirik|Ecole | Is that something I want to look up publicly? |
| 15:05.41 | Atriace | Getting into college |
| 15:05.51 | Gnarfoz | hmm *scratches head* |
| 15:05.53 | Atriace | Wait... that's metriculation |
| 15:06.16 | Gnarfoz | yeah. I meant the conversion to the metric system thing, that's supposed to be on its way since the 1960's ;D |
| 15:06.22 | Shirik|Ecole | oh |
| 15:06.29 | Shirik|Ecole | Well I use the metric system consistently |
| 15:06.30 | Gnarfoz | just came to mind when I thought about how to abbreviate million... |
| 15:06.49 | Shirik|Ecole | Of course, the most common units of measurement I use are Volts, Amps, Ohms, etc. |
| 15:06.58 | Lopeppeppy | I use cups and handfuls. |
| 15:07.00 | cbreak | si ftw! |
| 15:07.01 | Shirik|Ecole | there is no english system for that |
| 15:07.28 | Gnarfoz | SI ftw, indeed - I annoy people with MiBs, KiBs, etc. :D |
| 15:07.37 | Shirik|Ecole | I hate MiB/KiB |
| 15:07.45 | Shirik|Ecole | whomever invented that needs to be shot |
| 15:07.46 | Gnarfoz | it's ugly, but it had to be done ;p |
| 15:07.47 | zenzelezz | seconded |
| 15:07.50 | cbreak | hard disk manufacturer? :) |
| 15:08.14 | zenzelezz | if our bytes were 10-bit, I'd accept metric units |
| 15:08.15 | Shirik|Ecole | If you say MB is 1000 KB you are wrong |
| 15:08.17 | Shirik|Ecole | period. |
| 15:08.19 | Gnarfoz | different meanings for the same abbreviation, dependant on context that might be missing... |
| 15:08.22 | Gnarfoz | bad |
| 15:08.38 | Gnarfoz | Shirik: the problem is: M stands for 1000. |
| 15:08.52 | Shirik|Ecole | in the decimal system |
| 15:08.56 | Gnarfoz | no |
| 15:09.06 | Gnarfoz | in measurement units besides bytes |
| 15:09.07 | Shirik|Ecole | When I'm talking about binary numbers, M means 2^30 |
| 15:09.28 | Gnarfoz | yeah, but that's... not very scientific? |
| 15:09.29 | Shirik|Ecole | much like in base 10 where it means 10^3 |
| 15:09.37 | Shirik|Ecole | except it doesn't |
| 15:09.38 | Shirik|Ecole | lol |
| 15:09.41 | Gnarfoz | having an abbreviation mean something else, dependant on context? |
| 15:09.41 | zenzelezz | fuck scientism |
| 15:09.57 | haste | science - it works, bitches |
| 15:10.00 | Gnarfoz | Mm is a million meters |
| 15:10.00 | cbreak | Gnarfoz: CSS. |
| 15:10.03 | Gnarfoz | haste: xkcd :> |
| 15:10.14 | Shirik|Ecole | fact of the matter is that it doesn't make any sense to say 1000 KB, ex. |
| 15:10.20 | haste | :3 |
| 15:10.32 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: that's not part of the SI system of units, or what am I missing here :> |
| 15:10.38 | cbreak | no, it's not |
| 15:10.45 | cbreak | but neither is GB or MB |
| 15:10.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphen (n=gryphon@71.216.187.10) |
| 15:10.53 | Gnarfoz | actually, they are |
| 15:10.58 | cbreak | they are? |
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| 15:11.02 | Gnarfoz | obviously? |
| 15:11.08 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't think so |
| 15:11.13 | cbreak | bytes aren't an SI unit as far as I know |
| 15:11.15 | Shirik|Ecole | because even a byte is defined differently by different architectures |
| 15:11.20 | Gnarfoz | ah |
| 15:11.20 | Gnarfoz | ok |
| 15:11.26 | Shirik|Ecole | 6 bit system, 9 bit system |
| 15:11.37 | Gnarfoz | yeah, base units are *really* basic in SI, anyway :p |
| 15:11.40 | cbreak | I've seen a computer with decimal instead of binary arithmetic |
| 15:12.00 | Shirik|Ecole | C's standard correctly addresses this by stating that the only guarantee is that sizeof(char) is 1 byte, not what the size of a char actually is |
| 15:12.01 | Gnarfoz | "Because the SI prefixes strictly represent powers of 10, they should not be used to represent powers of 2. Thus, one kilobit, or 1 kbit, is 1000 bit and not 210 bit = 1024 bit. To alleviate this ambiguity, prefixes for binary multiples have been adopted by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) for " |
| 15:12.26 | Gnarfoz | http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html (quote from: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html) |
| 15:12.26 | Shirik|Ecole | So every time I put a "M" before something, it's an SI prefix? |
| 15:12.30 | Gnarfoz | yes |
| 15:12.31 | Shirik|Ecole | It isn't allowed to be used for anything else? |
| 15:12.36 | Shirik|Ecole | They should trademark M then |
| 15:12.40 | Shirik|Ecole | and K, and p, and whatever else |
| 15:12.43 | Gnarfoz | uhm |
| 15:12.44 | Gnarfoz | well |
| 15:12.52 | Shirik|Ecole | that's my theory at least |
| 15:12.55 | Gnarfoz | go back to yards and feet, if you like, etc |
| 15:13.06 | cbreak | I never used those archaic units |
| 15:13.06 | Gnarfoz | having a system of standards is useless without people actually obeying it :p |
| 15:13.18 | Shirik|Ecole | when they trademark M to mean 1 million, then I will gladly accept MB to be 1 million bytes |
| 15:13.22 | cbreak | the SI system does not deal with bytes |
| 15:13.26 | Shirik|Ecole | until they get that trademark approved, I will consider it 2^30 bytes |
| 15:13.28 | Gnarfoz | and ambiguity inside the most widely used one is: bad, so it was dealt with |
| 15:13.32 | cbreak | it's out of context |
| 15:13.36 | Shirik|Ecole | 2^20? |
| 15:13.37 | Shirik|Ecole | whatever! |
| 15:13.37 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: prefixes. |
| 15:13.47 | cbreak | the prefixes aren't used either |
| 15:14.08 | Gnarfoz | trademarks, pssh. "why so american?" as Fisker- would put it :p |
| 15:14.16 | cbreak | just because I have a Mac Pro, that doesn't mean I have a million ac Pros. |
| 15:14.19 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: uhm read that page? :p |
| 15:14.24 | Shirik|Ecole | hahaha |
| 15:14.52 | *** topic/#WoWUIDev by Shirik|Ecole -> http://wowuidev.pastey.net/ | 2.4.x ToC: 20400 | #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting | just because I have a Mac Pro, that doesn't mean I have a million ac Pros. - cbreak |
| 15:14.56 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (n=soufron@212.99.101.3) |
| 15:14.59 | zenzelezz | everyone was doing fine with multiples of 1024 until the harddrive manufacturers were having trouble squeezing in more capacity and needed a new way to make them appear larger |
| 15:15.11 | Gnarfoz | they've done that from basically, the start |
| 15:15.35 | zenzelezz | didn't become an issue for a long time |
| 15:15.46 | zenzelezz | before that people just knew |
| 15:15.46 | cbreak | everyone knows that they do it |
| 15:15.56 | Shirik|Ecole | Became an issue when marketing people started thinking they knew computers |
| 15:16.45 | Gnarfoz | were there hard drives before 1960? |
| 15:17.03 | cbreak | punch card readers? |
| 15:17.08 | Gnarfoz | HARD DRIVES |
| 15:17.09 | Gnarfoz | :p |
| 15:17.21 | Shirik|Ecole | well, they were hard if they were still in the case |
| 15:17.28 | Gnarfoz | oh fuck you :p |
| 15:17.33 | Shirik|Ecole | :D |
| 15:17.45 | Gnarfoz | SI prefix "M" has been 1.000.000 longer than hard drives exist. |
| 15:17.47 | cbreak | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk_drive |
| 15:17.50 | Gnarfoz | +for |
| 15:18.00 | Gnarfoz | ok, 4 years later, fuck IBM :< |
| 15:18.06 | Gnarfoz | gah :p |
| 15:18.23 | zenzelezz | well we used yards since long before we used meters, but we still shun yards today |
| 15:18.25 | zenzelezz | times change |
| 15:18.44 | Gnarfoz | who shuns yards? |
| 15:18.44 | Shirik|Ecole | Point is just because we say M doesn't mean it has to be the SI M |
| 15:18.51 | Shirik|Ecole | People that don't play football |
| 15:18.54 | cbreak | bow to the metric superiority! :) |
| 15:19.14 | cbreak | but SI only applies to a narrow field, not to everything |
| 15:19.16 | zenzelezz | I quite loved the show 1,000,000acGyver |
| 15:19.33 | Gnarfoz | cbreak: why do you say that? |
| 15:19.48 | zenzelezz | now shut up before I 1,000ill you |
| 15:19.54 | Gnarfoz | it applies to everything you can put in numbers and to everything you can represent in SI units and their derivates |
| 15:20.11 | Gnarfoz | ...if you acknowledge it, at all |
| 15:20.16 | cbreak | yes. but bytes aren't part of that. |
| 15:20.40 | Gnarfoz | sigh |
| 15:20.57 | cbreak | some things are inherently not well expressed in SI units |
| 15:21.09 | Gnarfoz | some people are inherently against change, too :) |
| 15:21.10 | cbreak | eggs for example. or bytes. |
| 15:21.16 | cbreak | (I buy eggs in base 12) |
| 15:21.34 | Gnarfoz | linux-image-2.6-686 vs. linux-image-2.6.26-1-686 |
| 15:21.37 | zenzelezz | damn straight we're against change |
| 15:21.53 | Gnarfoz | zenzelezz votes for McCain! I knew it! |
| 15:22.02 | Gnarfoz | which one of those images is actually newer? |
| 15:22.11 | zenzelezz | if I had a vote in the US I would vote against all your candidates |
| 15:22.11 | Gnarfoz | I hope the former won't install 2.6.0? |
| 15:22.19 | zenzelezz | I'm quite happy to express my distate for your leadership |
| 15:22.19 | Gnarfoz | I would, too |
| 15:22.29 | Nom- | Anyone here got a Radeon 4850 ? |
| 15:22.30 | Drophole | do you have distate often? |
| 15:22.35 | Gnarfoz | too bad I only get to vote in my country :D |
| 15:22.58 | cbreak | I like being able to vote in my country. |
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| 15:23.06 | cbreak | it's a lot more useful than being able to vote in the US |
| 15:23.20 | zenzelezz | Drophole: nope; but I suffer the same fate as old hardware... when we run hot, bits of data get lost |
| 15:23.42 | Drophole | any hardware has a fault point zenzelezz |
| 15:23.44 | Nom- | I'm getting huge performance problems in WoW at the moment... i'm pretty sure it's not my video card... that only leaves CPU |
| 15:23.45 | Shirik|Ecole | Should use Hamming code |
| 15:23.51 | Drophole | you suffer environmental decay :D |
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| 15:24.07 | zenzelezz | I redfine environmental decay |
| 15:24.14 | Gnarfoz | Nom-: what's the texture resolution slider set at? |
| 15:24.16 | zenzelezz | oh the irony |
| 15:24.23 | Drophole | Nom- based on what facts do you exclude the video card |
| 15:24.35 | Nom- | It's a Radeon 4850 |
| 15:24.41 | Nom- | It's a pretty damn quick card |
| 15:24.46 | Shirik|Ecole | therefore it cannot fail |
| 15:24.47 | cbreak | smaller number = older? |
| 15:24.55 | Nom- | eh no |
| 15:24.59 | Gnarfoz | ? |
| 15:25.01 | Nom- | it's a new model less than 3 months old |
| 15:25.05 | Gnarfoz | yeah. |
| 15:25.08 | Drophole | it's ati |
| 15:25.17 | Drophole | inherently prone to fault |
| 15:25.19 | Gnarfoz | he could be on a real operating system |
| 15:25.20 | Gnarfoz | ;p |
| 15:25.23 | Shirik|Ecole | Here's what I see |
| 15:25.31 | Shirik|Ecole | "It's a pretty damn quick card" --> Therefore it cannot fail |
| 15:25.34 | Drophole | ATI is as horrible this year as it was nearly a decade ago |
| 15:25.37 | Shirik|Ecole | "It's less than 3 months old" --> Therefore it cannot fail |
| 15:25.51 | Drophole | hehe |
| 15:25.54 | Shirik|Ecole | I used to love these kinds of conversations when I worked for Geek Squad |
| 15:25.58 | zenzelezz | Drophole: not true, the 9800-family was solid |
| 15:26.07 | |pez| | I had a 9800 |
| 15:26.09 | Nom- | Well CPU is only 2.0 GHz |
| 15:26.10 | |pez| | loved it to bits. |
| 15:26.13 | Gnarfoz | it's probably not bound to fail in a way that merely decreases performance. :p |
| 15:26.13 | Nom- | It's a tad underpowered |
| 15:26.16 | Drophole | no it wasn't |
| 15:26.20 | Drophole | it was bad |
| 15:26.21 | Shirik|Ecole | The other conversation I loved was "It couldn't be a power surge, I have a surge protector" |
| 15:26.23 | zenzelezz | I had three 9800s |
| 15:26.29 | zenzelezz | all worked fine |
| 15:26.39 | Shirik|Ecole | and especially "It could be a virus, I have Norton" |
| 15:26.44 | Shirik|Ecole | there's two things wrong with that one |
| 15:26.47 | Drophole | zenzelezz and you are the epitomy of a benchmark for whatever hardware you own? |
| 15:26.48 | Gnarfoz | Drophole: uhm 9800 pro, same as 9700pro, dominated nvidia for 2 years. :p |
| 15:26.54 | Shirik|Ecole | s/could/couldn't/ |
| 15:27.12 | Nom- | Gnarfoz: Drivers have always let ATI down... |
| 15:27.14 | Shirik|Ecole | I had a 9800 for a while, my last ATI card |
| 15:27.24 | zenzelezz | Drophole: I didn't say they were the greatest, only that they were solid. They worked well and did their job |
| 15:27.25 | Gnarfoz | drivers are fine on windows, you read too many linux sites. |
| 15:27.26 | Shirik|Ecole | Failed to run admirably on SuSE, reason I switched to nVidia |
| 15:27.30 | Nom- | The cards themselves are great... it's the drivers |
| 15:27.38 | Drophole | zenzelezz I will tell you a story |
| 15:27.40 | Nom- | I've *tried* to use it under Linux... i wanted to use it as my primary OS |
| 15:27.44 | Nom- | can't be done |
| 15:27.51 | Drophole | opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and I don't want to see yours </end story> |
| 15:27.52 | Shirik|Ecole | Especially because ATI is now owned by AMD, ATI knows what they're doing tbh |
| 15:27.54 | Nom- | not with the current drivers anyway |
| 15:28.04 | zenzelezz | I am intrigued if you think you can change my miind about them |
| 15:28.05 | Drophole | unless you've had first hand experience working with the 9800 as a developer and not a consumer |
| 15:28.11 | Drophole | don't comment on the card (piece of shit) |
| 15:28.16 | Drophole | the card that is, not you |
| 15:28.24 | zenzelezz | I know several developers who said the contrary |
| 15:28.24 | Gnarfoz | fuck you |
| 15:28.25 | Gnarfoz | :p |
| 15:28.32 | Gnarfoz | who cares if you're a developer |
| 15:28.33 | Shirik|Ecole | I think I'm a developer |
| 15:28.37 | Shirik|Ecole | I might be wrong though |
| 15:28.44 | Drophole | haha |
| 15:28.46 | Gnarfoz | your opinion is not worth one iota more than mine :p |
| 15:28.58 | Shirik|Ecole | I keep being told I don't know how many bytes there are in a MB |
| 15:29.03 | Shirik|Ecole | so I might not be a developer |
| 15:29.10 | jaxdahl2 | i'll pay 40 cents for your opinion, Gnarfoz |
| 15:29.11 | Shirik|Ecole | sorry I'll shut up :) |
| 15:29.15 | ShaneSveller | 4-month-old 4850 compared to the year old 8800gt is a total toss-up. that's inherently fail, ATI. |
| 15:29.16 | Nom- | Anyway, I was trying to confirm 4850 works fine under max quality settings for someone else (it kind of does on live, but not beta for me) |
| 15:29.29 | Nom- | It's just continual stopping and starting, like it's churning away doing something |
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| 15:29.36 | Gnarfoz | ShaneSveller: except that 4850 > 8800gt and 4850 is cheaper. oO |
| 15:29.42 | Shirik|Ecole | Nom-: I recognize that! |
| 15:29.43 | Nom- | When I stop moving and just look around, the framerate is super good |
| 15:29.51 | Shirik|Ecole | Like you get a burst of frames then a stop |
| 15:29.53 | Gnarfoz | Nom-: how much ram? oO |
| 15:29.54 | Shirik|Ecole | over and over? |
| 15:29.59 | Nom- | 4GB RAM |
| 15:30.03 | Gnarfoz | meh. |
| 15:30.15 | Gnarfoz | (tried another card? :P) |
| 15:30.16 | Shirik|Ecole | Gah I forgot what you need to do |
| 15:30.18 | ShaneSveller | Gnarfoz: wrong, I just looked this up. 4850 and 8800gt benchmark within 10fps of each other consistently, and you can get a pny 8800gt for $115 on newegg. cheapest 4850 is $160. |
| 15:30.20 | Nom- | Shirik|Ecole: Yes... but it comes and goes depending on what i'm doing |
| 15:30.20 | Shirik|Ecole | There's a console setting |
| 15:30.21 | Gnarfoz | also, what's the texture resolution slider set at? |
| 15:30.30 | Gnarfoz | ShaneSveller: US prices suck, then. |
| 15:30.46 | ShaneSveller | Gnarfoz: only advantage to 4850 is mildly newer support for DX10 and OpenGL |
| 15:30.59 | Nom- | It's on high... live only has high low, and it makes no difference except low makes a few icons (like the mini-map arrow) look crap |
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| 15:31.31 | Gnarfoz | wow sucks ass at AF, that's why I'm asking :p |
| 15:31.48 | Nom- | Well, ask about that, not texture resolution |
| 15:31.56 | Gnarfoz | ShaneSveller: meh, synthetic benchmarks. [H] <3 |
| 15:32.05 | Gnarfoz | Nom-: it's the slider that controls it, in wow. |
| 15:32.18 | zenzelezz | while we're at it, screw DX10 |
| 15:32.33 | Gnarfoz | or maybe I'm too tired and it's labeled differently? :( |
| 15:32.58 | Nom- | gxFixLag "0" |
| 15:32.59 | Gnarfoz | I'd have to log in an check which one is not set at maximum here, because of this... :[ |
| 15:33.02 | Nom- | Is that the setting? :/ |
| 15:33.05 | Gnarfoz | that's for the UI |
| 15:33.23 | Gnarfoz | some framelevel thingy, IIRC |
| 15:33.26 | Shirik|Ecole | can't hurt to try, but I believe that was the mouse problem |
| 15:33.31 | Nom- | SET gxMultisampleQuality "0.000000" SET gxResolution "1680x1050" |
| 15:33.40 | Gnarfoz | AA, resolution |
| 15:33.47 | ShaneSveller | Gnarfoz: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-q3-2008/compare,745.html?prod%5B2073%5D=on&prod%5B2071%5D=on&prod%5B2115%5D=on&prod%5B2116%5D=on&prod%5B2072%5D=on broad benchmarks on many games comparing dual- and single- setups of the 4850 and 8800gt. like i said, pretty damn close across the board. |
| 15:33.57 | Gnarfoz | tom's hardware. haha :D |
| 15:33.57 | Shirik|Ecole | I have to disappear temporarily |
| 15:34.13 | Shirik|Ecole | have fun with your discussions of why ATI sucks/doesn't suck |
| 15:34.30 | Gnarfoz | like I said. synthetic benchmarks are crap, read up on hardocp.com as to why ;) |
| 15:35.09 | Gnarfoz | anyway, this won't solve Nom-'s problems :< |
| 15:35.09 | ShaneSveller | Gnarfoz: I just did, I read http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTU1OCwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA== right before looking at tom's hw |
| 15:35.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Atriace (n=omnizeta@188.118.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 15:35.37 | Gnarfoz | read the older test ones, too? (haven't seen this "lineup" one) |
| 15:36.09 | Nom- | Well, i've got $3,000 in the kitty.. was going to be for an iMac, but i'm wondering if I'm going to ever get the performance out of it I want :) |
| 15:36.39 | ShaneSveller | Gnarfoz: that one's not quite what I wanted because it only uses 200 series, doesn't include the 8800gt whatsoever |
| 15:36.56 | Gnarfoz | hmm, going from ati card + linux, to a mac |
| 15:36.57 | Gnarfoz | for games |
| 15:37.49 | Gnarfoz | ... get a $1k PC (or rather, $1.5k, adjusting for € vs $ here) and spend the rest of the money on something else ;p |
| 15:38.02 | cbreak | iMacs aren't known for their performance. |
| 15:38.22 | Nom- | No, but Mac memory management is a shyteload better than Winblows |
| 15:38.22 | Gnarfoz | Macs aren't known for their great variety of games supported :D |
| 15:38.32 | Gnarfoz | "mac memory management"? -> unix |
| 15:38.46 | Gnarfoz | it's also just "different" |
| 15:38.47 | Nom- | Yah... they've made some tweaks though |
| 15:38.48 | cbreak | I can play WoW just fine |
| 15:38.57 | cbreak | and Go. |
| 15:38.59 | Nom- | And there's less bullshyte |
| 15:39.15 | Nom- | I don't have to wait 5 months for all the startup crap to load when I power on my computer |
| 15:39.20 | Gnarfoz | a-ha. |
| 15:39.34 | Gnarfoz | yeah, don't fill your box up with shit, and you won't have to do that on windows, either. |
| 15:39.36 | Nom- | Well, it's not that bad (being a brand new install and all) but yeah |
| 15:39.47 | ZorbaTHut | or just don't turn it off. that's what I do :P |
| 15:39.48 | Gnarfoz | or: use standby! :D |
| 15:39.57 | Nom- | Nah, I never power off |
| 15:40.12 | ZorbaTHut | http://cams.pavlovian.net/megauptime.png (turned off shortly afterwards to replace a hard drive) |
| 15:40.49 | Gnarfoz | yay. there's uptime.exe btw ;p |
| 15:41.10 | ZorbaTHut | on my system, there doesn't seem to be :) |
| 15:41.11 | ShaneSveller | Gnarfoz: http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTUzNywxLCxoZW50aGlzdWFzdA== seems to support my position that the 8800GT and the 4850 are basically neck and neck and you should pick whichever brand you prefer |
| 15:41.51 | Nom- | For me it came purely down to dollars |
| 15:42.03 | Nom- | I wanted a video card to get me through 'til I bought an iMac |
| 15:42.10 | Nom- | 4850 was best bang for buck |
| 15:43.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Castigo (n=dylan@host86-168-153-23.range86-168.btcentralplus.com) |
| 15:43.15 | Castigo | hello everyone |
| 15:43.27 | Lopeppeppy | Morning |
| 15:43.28 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: lucky you =) |
| 15:43.30 | ZorbaTHut | generally, I've found nvidia has better drivers while ati has better hardware |
| 15:43.44 | Castigo | is there anyone here |
| 15:43.53 | Castigo | who likes to be nagged from nub wow addon developers |
| 15:43.54 | ZorbaTHut | ati tends to be a bit better if you're willing to muck with things and debug weird problems, nvidia tends to be a bit better if you just want it to work. |
| 15:43.59 | Castigo | to help him solve his problems? |
| 15:44.05 | Atriace | Does anyone know how LibStub handles removing old vars when a new version is present, and how it protects user vars when doing so? |
| 15:44.09 | ZorbaTHut | it's not a huge difference in either direction at this point, though. |
| 15:44.11 | Lopeppeppy | Castigo, just go ahead and ask, if someone can help they will. Pastey in the topic for your code. |
| 15:44.48 | Atriace | If at all |
| 15:44.50 | Nom- | Maybe I just stuff it and go get a GTX 260 + 3.33GHz Dual Core |
| 15:44.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Drayeah (i=5065af6a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4857fa3809099626) |
| 15:44.58 | Nom- | Get it over and done with |
| 15:45.17 | Castigo | lope: i appreciate that but its a basic |
| 15:45.36 | Castigo | but my prob is a basic setup |
| 15:45.41 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: that iMac might suit you pretty well overall, not just specifically for WoW. particularly dropping 3k on one. |
| 15:45.57 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: but at that price point you might even look at the Mac Pro. |
| 15:46.04 | Castigo | so its multiple files etc.. how can i pastey that? |
| 15:46.19 | Nom- | Yeah, I can't afford the ECC Registered memory though :) |
| 15:46.26 | Nom- | That's just stupid for a desktop PC to have ECC RAM |
| 15:46.27 | ShaneSveller | Castigo: you can make sections for the files in one Pastey |
| 15:46.31 | Drophole | ecc registered is worse for a server |
| 15:46.38 | Drophole | let me rephrase |
| 15:46.45 | Drophole | worse for a desktop computer for gaming etc |
| 15:46.48 | Drophole | it's meant for servers |
| 15:46.52 | Nom- | (The problem is, the Mac Pro *isn't* a desktop... it's server grade hardware) |
| 15:47.13 | Gnarfoz | Workstation is the term ;) |
| 15:47.18 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@141.222.30.131) |
| 15:47.35 | Gnarfoz | ...poof. |
| 15:47.46 | Nom- | ECC Registerd memory is for when I want to build s a server with 256GB of memory... not for a desktop of any kind |
| 15:48.23 | Nom- | I'm thinking 24" iMac |
| 15:48.50 | cbreak | I have 2 GB of EEC memory :/ |
| 15:48.55 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: advantage to the mac pro is swappable innards, particularly the vidcard |
| 15:49.05 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: but i agree, a 24" will do nicely |
| 15:49.17 | Nom- | ShaneSveller: That doesn't help you much when the video card driver support is pretty limited |
| 15:49.36 | Nom- | ShaneSveller: They *sell* it as a swap the hardware around thing, but in reality, you've got like 3 video cards which you can actually use |
| 15:49.39 | ShaneSveller | Wait, does the 24" use desktop RAM? my 17" 5G uses notebook, bleh |
| 15:49.59 | Nom- | Yes... 24" uses regular DDR2 DIMMs |
| 15:50.14 | Nom- | Takes 2 of them from memory, so you're limited to 4GB max |
| 15:50.18 | ShaneSveller | Nice. |
| 15:50.22 | Castigo | ok my pastey is http://www.pastey.net/97610 it's a basic addon framework setup, no code at all, and the onload function is not called, it's a noobish question, but why? |
| 15:51.20 | Castigo | did i dc? |
| 15:51.28 | Nom- | no |
| 15:51.29 | ShaneSveller | Castigo: wish i could help, but I don't bother with XML whatsoever as my addons are behind-the-scenes or slash commands |
| 15:51.45 | nevcairiel | you can do UI without xml =P |
| 15:51.56 | ShaneSveller | nevcairiel: and I'd prefer to |
| 15:52.04 | nevcairiel | so do i |
| 15:52.34 | ShaneSveller | anyone tried that new build of Talented I committed over the weekend? |
| 15:52.50 | Nom- | for what? beta? |
| 15:52.59 | nevcairiel | should work for both |
| 15:53.03 | Castigo | nevca i know but it's kinda pain to define subframes by code |
| 15:53.13 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: both, yeah |
| 15:53.27 | Castigo | i am sure i miss some kind of lua<->xml integration |
| 15:53.44 | Castigo | but docs on that are poor |
| 15:53.55 | Castigo | i tried to look on different addons and everything on mine seems fine |
| 15:53.57 | cbreak | virtuals instanciated by code? |
| 15:54.18 | Castigo | cbreak the pastey is all the code there is |
| 15:54.40 | nevcairiel | you do have both files in your .toc? |
| 15:54.43 | nevcairiel | the xml and the lua? |
| 15:54.52 | nevcairiel | ah right you do |
| 15:54.52 | Castigo | indeed |
| 15:55.01 | nevcairiel | load the lua first |
| 15:55.13 | Castigo | doesn't change it, already tried it |
| 15:55.14 | nevcairiel | or hm |
| 15:55.25 | nevcairiel | you build a circular dependency <.< |
| 15:55.51 | Castigo | no errors frames displayed |
| 15:55.56 | Castigo | no framexml.log |
| 15:55.56 | nevcairiel | Your lua depends on DivineUI already being created |
| 15:56.11 | nevcairiel | And your XML depends on the Lua already being parsed |
| 15:56.24 | Castigo | if i call Print(DivineUI.version) i can see the global vars being declared |
| 15:56.59 | nevcairiel | yeah of course |
| 15:57.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|Away (n=nchatzil@d64-180-72-54.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 15:57.24 | cbreak | I don't like that code :/ |
| 15:57.29 | Castigo | uhm... i see ur point |
| 15:57.37 | cbreak | you put stuff into frames treading them like tables. |
| 15:57.44 | nevcairiel | The OnLoad is caleld before your Lua is ever executed |
| 15:57.46 | cbreak | Not sure if that is intended |
| 15:57.50 | cbreak | (even though I do it too) |
| 15:57.58 | nevcairiel | cbreak: everyone does it, hehe |
| 15:58.07 | cbreak | :/ |
| 15:58.22 | cbreak | and if you accidentially overwrite important contents of the frame? |
| 15:58.25 | cbreak | ah well |
| 15:58.44 | nevcairiel | everything important is in the user data |
| 15:59.06 | cbreak | the functions? |
| 15:59.06 | nevcairiel | In Lua, frames are just a table with a metatable and the userdata on [0] |
| 15:59.13 | Castigo | nevcairel well clique does a sort of what i am doing |
| 15:59.16 | Castigo | datatext too |
| 15:59.28 | Castigo | tho datatext don't use any xml |
| 15:59.37 | Castigo | and clique uses ace3 in global |
| 16:00.01 | nevcairiel | cbreak: well you could happen to overwrite one of the functions, but you would notice sooner or later, and only break your own frame .. so its not really that bad =) |
| 16:00.23 | cbreak | well... |
| 16:01.06 | Castigo | nev: can i get out of the circular dep |
| 16:01.11 | Castigo | creating by code a |
| 16:01.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.222.174) |
| 16:01.14 | Castigo | frame |
| 16:01.20 | Castigo | which is virtual, and inheriting it |
| 16:01.25 | Castigo | from the xml code? |
| 16:01.38 | cbreak | Castigo: what you should do is to not put it into the frame, but in a table |
| 16:01.41 | cbreak | which you create yourself |
| 16:01.48 | cbreak | so you can load the lua code before the xml |
| 16:02.20 | Castigo | how? |
| 16:02.44 | cbreak | DivineUI = {}; DivineUI.Media = LibStub("LibSharedMedia-3.0") |
| 16:02.48 | cbreak | and rename your frame |
| 16:02.50 | nevcairiel | DivineUI = {} .. and change the name of your frame to DivineUIFrame |
| 16:04.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Tiven (n=Tifa@athedsl-4466753.home.otenet.gr) |
| 16:04.51 | Castigo | uhm.. |
| 16:04.54 | Castigo | i think i got it :P |
| 16:05.04 | Castigo | pastey inc |
| 16:05.13 | [Liquidor] | How do you create a ScrollFrame and buttons relative to the frame using Lua only? |
| 16:05.19 | |Jelly| | WTB Darkmoon Faire Tabard. :( |
| 16:06.02 | *** join/#wowuidev theduke (i=user@chello084113137160.3.13.vie.surfer.at) |
| 16:06.30 | Nom- | do the .pub interface files in wrath contain any real data ? |
| 16:06.40 | Castigo | like this : http://www.pastey.net/97613? |
| 16:06.58 | *** join/#wowuidev AckisWork (i=8ee551be@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Troll/Ackis) |
| 16:09.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik|Ecole (n=nospam@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 16:09.05 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Ecole] by ChanServ |
| 16:09.33 | Shirik|Ecole | rawr |
| 16:09.38 | Gryphen | ono i esceared of teh rawr! i need a huggle. |
| 16:09.58 | Shirik|Ecole | I love Gryphen ^_^ |
| 16:10.01 | Shirik|Ecole | even if I only chat with his bot |
| 16:10.53 | Castigo | cbreak you mean like this http://www.pastey.net/97613? |
| 16:11.15 | Shirik|Ecole | Castigo: Are those -- actually in there? |
| 16:11.20 | Shirik|Ecole | -- XML -- etc |
| 16:11.28 | Castigo | ofc no |
| 16:11.33 | Castigo | it's just to pastey multiple files |
| 16:11.45 | Shirik|Ecole | you keep scripts and the rest in several files? |
| 16:11.48 | Shirik|Ecole | that's all I was confused about |
| 16:11.56 | cbreak | looks ok on first glance |
| 16:11.57 | Shirik|Ecole | oh you just broke it up |
| 16:11.59 | Castigo | but still ain't working and i get no error frames nor anything |
| 16:12.18 | nevcairiel | can you do lua-style comments in xml? |
| 16:12.19 | nevcairiel | hm |
| 16:12.22 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't think so |
| 16:12.23 | nevcairiel | probalby not |
| 16:12.26 | Castigo | shirik indeed they are on multiple files, i just cut and pasted them (apart from the toc which i just cut and pasted few lines) |
| 16:12.28 | Castigo | yes you can |
| 16:12.45 | Shirik|Ecole | Ok Castigo, do you have a framexml.log anywhere? |
| 16:13.00 | nevcairiel | change t to <!-- [ SCRIPTS ] --> imho |
| 16:13.08 | Shirik|Ecole | agree |
| 16:13.16 | Shirik|Ecole | I assumed that wasn't there |
| 16:13.43 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 16:13.47 | cbreak | wasn't that just a file separator? |
| 16:13.48 | Castigo | it is allowed btw |
| 16:13.51 | cbreak | hmm... no, can't be |
| 16:14.04 | Castigo | cbreak it is :) i copied that from other working addons |
| 16:14.08 | nevcairiel | Shirik|Ecole: for some reason my wow stopped creating a framexml log, halp |
| 16:14.16 | Shirik|Ecole | er, really? |
| 16:14.20 | cbreak | blizz did something evil then |
| 16:14.38 | Shirik|Ecole | it should always create a log, no? |
| 16:14.40 | nevcairiel | i beleted it, restarted wow, and nothing |
| 16:14.42 | Shirik|Ecole | even with no errors |
| 16:14.46 | foxlit | fs permissions? |
| 16:14.46 | Shirik|Ecole | vista? |
| 16:14.56 | nevcairiel | uac off, all other logs are fine |
| 16:15.07 | nevcairiel | does that do anything Shirik|Ecole? :P |
| 16:15.09 | cbreak | do you have any frame errors? |
| 16:15.14 | Shirik|Ecole | It used to work |
| 16:15.20 | Shirik|Ecole | at least with some clients |
| 16:15.27 | nevcairiel | Should have some "Couldnt open file" errors |
| 16:15.35 | Nom- | is there a doco with a quick getting started for dev tools ? |
| 16:15.42 | nevcairiel | because i remove embedded libs |
| 16:15.49 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: devtools, like Iriel's addon? |
| 16:15.49 | Shirik|Ecole | Getting started with devtools doc (condensed version): |
| 16:15.54 | Shirik|Ecole | type /dtframestack, move mouse, be happy |
| 16:16.04 | Nom- | yeah... i just found it in the |
| 16:16.05 | Shirik|Ecole | type /dteventtrace, click little question box, check events, be happy |
| 16:16.06 | Nom- | live one |
| 16:16.13 | Shirik|Ecole | type /dtchatevent, click little [#], be happy |
| 16:16.20 | Shirik|Ecole | type /dump with random thing to dump, be happyt |
| 16:16.25 | Shirik|Ecole | <end devtools doc> |
| 16:16.37 | foxlit | Generalized: 1. ??? 2. ??? 3. Be Happy |
| 16:17.10 | Shirik|Ecole | 1. Don't worry, 2. ???, 3. Be Happy |
| 16:17.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@88.195.34.143) |
| 16:17.31 | Nom- | oooo calendar data is LoD now *sigh* |
| 16:17.46 | Castigo | hang on, now might work actually |
| 16:18.51 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: why sigh? how often do you need the calendar data? |
| 16:20.21 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring (n=copystri@p548A168A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:20.49 | Nom- | Well i'm trying to fix my addon |
| 16:21.00 | Nom- | The purpose of which is to get all that calendar data and put it into an export |
| 16:21.06 | ShaneSveller | Ahh |
| 16:21.12 | Nom- | It's only seeing one event at the moment |
| 16:21.24 | Nom- | It looks like the API has gone all whacky though |
| 16:21.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Onewey (n=Weye1@dsl-hkibras-fe33f900-6.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 16:21.42 | ShaneSveller | do you have the diff for the patch that broke it? |
| 16:22.04 | ShaneSveller | kd3 from #WoWUIDev sends them out on a mailing list |
| 16:22.08 | Nom- | no, i didn't keep it up to date for a while, but now that the UI has stabilized, I figured I should fix it |
| 16:22.11 | nevcairiel | we're in #WoWUIDev |
| 16:22.11 | nevcairiel | :P |
| 16:22.17 | ShaneSveller | nevcairiel: I channel hop wayyy too much |
| 16:22.21 | theduke | hi there |
| 16:22.21 | theduke | i have a small problem with my OnLoad() function not beeing called |
| 16:22.21 | theduke | function Load(self) |
| 16:22.22 | theduke | bla bla |
| 16:22.24 | theduke | end |
| 16:22.28 | theduke | local frame=CreateFrame("Frame"); |
| 16:22.30 | theduke | frame:Show(); |
| 16:22.32 | theduke | frame:SetScript("OnUpdate", Load); |
| 16:22.36 | theduke | something missing? |
| 16:22.57 | theduke | äh frame:SetScript("OnLoad", Load); |
| 16:22.58 | theduke | of course |
| 16:22.59 | ShaneSveller | theduke: you might want to make Load a local or something, that probably interferes with something in the global namespace |
| 16:22.59 | Shirik|Ecole | theduke, don't paste to this channel |
| 16:23.01 | Nom- | CalendarGetDayEvent() used to reutrn the number of events, which lets you loop through them all |
| 16:23.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Beladona (n=Beladona@24.129.136.26) |
| 16:23.02 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Beladona] by ChanServ |
| 16:23.13 | Nom- | Now it's only covering certain types of events (like brewfest) |
| 16:23.32 | Nom- | Actaully, it was CalendarGetEvent |
| 16:23.34 | Nom- | They removed it :( |
| 16:23.36 | theduke | i did not actually name it Load, just for example |
| 16:23.43 | theduke | sry about pasting |
| 16:23.54 | Castigo | uhm.. one last stupid question :P |
| 16:23.56 | Castigo | function DivineUI:MakeSlashCmd(...) |
| 16:23.56 | Castigo | local global = string.upper(self:GetName()) |
| 16:24.03 | nevcairiel | theduke: you cant use OnLoad from Lua frames |
| 16:24.08 | Castigo | doesn't gives any error but just doesn't get executed |
| 16:24.11 | nevcairiel | theduke: OnLoad is called during CreateFrame |
| 16:24.17 | nevcairiel | so, you're too late |
| 16:24.26 | Shirik|Ecole | Castigo: Do you ever call it? |
| 16:24.34 | nevcairiel | theduke: just call your Load function yourself, like "Load(frame)" |
| 16:24.46 | Castigo | Shirik it goes inside there and then just "stop" |
| 16:24.51 | Shirik|Ecole | it can't just stop |
| 16:25.32 | nevcairiel | unless it errors |
| 16:25.33 | Shirik|Ecole | the only possible way to just stop is if you do something like a = function(a) coroutine.wrap(a)(a) end a(a), or if you encounter an error |
| 16:25.35 | Castigo | i've put a debug string in there (as soon as it enter the function) and one after self:GetName() |
| 16:25.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (n=kalroth@3908ds1-hj.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 16:26.21 | Castigo | sherik look |
| 16:26.22 | ShaneSveller | you can do coroutines within wow? |
| 16:26.22 | Castigo | function DivineUI:MakeSlashCmd(...) |
| 16:26.22 | Castigo | Dui_Debug("----- test1") |
| 16:26.23 | Castigo | local global = string.upper(self:GetName()) |
| 16:26.23 | Castigo | Dui_Debug("----- test2") |
| 16:26.38 | Shirik|Ecole | Ok, what if you do this |
| 16:26.49 | Castigo | test1 is displayed |
| 16:26.50 | Castigo | test2 is not |
| 16:27.25 | nevcairiel | Castigo: if you renamed your frame before, you cant use "self" anymore, use DivineUIFrame or something |
| 16:27.28 | Shirik|Ecole | local _, global = pcall(function(self) return string.upper(self:GetName) end, self) |
| 16:27.30 | nevcairiel | and thus it errors |
| 16:27.36 | Shirik|Ecole | Do you see test2 or not? |
| 16:27.40 | Shirik|Ecole | (Ignore the fact that this is a bad idea) |
| 16:28.07 | Nom- | oh.. awesome |
| 16:28.16 | Nom- | looks like the day offsets are now from the first of the month |
| 16:28.18 | Nom- | how fun |
| 16:28.21 | Nom- | *sigh* |
| 16:28.47 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: what were they before? |
| 16:29.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Corgan (i=Corgan@63.249.58.84) |
| 16:29.12 | Castigo | necariel here we are at the problem then :) |
| 16:29.26 | Nom- | an offset from today |
| 16:29.44 | Shirik|Ecole | hold it |
| 16:29.48 | Shirik|Ecole | nevcairiel is right |
| 16:29.54 | Shirik|Ecole | self is DivineUI |
| 16:29.55 | Shirik|Ecole | not a frame |
| 16:30.06 | nevcairiel | my name seems to be uber hard to get right |
| 16:30.14 | Shirik|Ecole | n tab? |
| 16:30.19 | haste | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:31.12 | nevcairiel | my tab completion is stupid, it should favor people that talked recently, but it doesnt :/ |
| 16:31.33 | Castigo | Shirik and nev, will all this changes work with AceConfig tho? (which is the main reason why i am doing this mess) |
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| 16:31.58 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Malgayne] by ChanServ |
| 16:32.22 | Nom- | hmm i might post to get clarification |
| 16:32.30 | Nom- | right now i can't find any command combo to get the same set of data i need |
| 16:32.38 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't use Ace at all, which is why nevcairiel hates me, however I don't see why there should be an issue |
| 16:32.59 | nevcairiel | huh? |
| 16:33.03 | nevcairiel | I dont care if anyone uses ace |
| 16:33.11 | ShaneSveller | Nom-: does the BlizzCalendar stuff save what you need in its SVs? |
| 16:33.41 | zenzelezz | "Eventually, the word on the street is "GetActiveWindow doesn't work. Use GetForegroundWindow instead." Soon, people are using it for everything, waxing their car, calming a colicky baby, or improving their sexual attractiveness." <-- I find this amusing |
| 16:33.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Slackwise (i=Lance@c-98-206-241-83.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 16:33.53 | Castigo | anyway guys it sort of work |
| 16:34.03 | Castigo | so i better piss off and solve the stuff myself before i annoy you all to death |
| 16:34.13 | Shirik|Ecole | that's what we're here for |
| 16:34.14 | Castigo | and trust me , u will hate me in notime |
| 16:34.17 | Shirik|Ecole | no |
| 16:34.28 | Shirik|Ecole | We hate you if you aren't willing to try to find the solution or work with us |
| 16:34.37 | Shirik|Ecole | If you expect us to feed the answer to you then we hate you :) |
| 16:34.41 | Shirik|Ecole | You haven't shown that yet |
| 16:34.49 | Castigo | YET! |
| 16:35.03 | Castigo | shirik so we agreed that you code the addon for me |
| 16:35.08 | Castigo | and i give the name to it? |
| 16:35.11 | Shirik|Ecole | print("Hello world") - Hello, why this doesn't output "Hello, Earth", can you please change for me? |
| 16:35.11 | [Liquidor] | Okay I'm not trying to be annoying or anything. Just want to learn, so here I go again: How do I create a ScrollFrame using Lua? Where can I read more about it? |
| 16:35.32 | Shirik|Ecole | you don't want to [Liquidor] |
| 16:35.33 | Shirik|Ecole | heh |
| 16:35.42 | Shirik|Ecole | Not even being facetious :) |
| 16:35.43 | [Liquidor] | So it's an XML thing? |
| 16:35.49 | Shirik|Ecole | no, you just don't want to |
| 16:36.00 | Shirik|Ecole | But um, to answer your question |
| 16:36.03 | [Liquidor] | Because...? |
| 16:36.11 | Shirik|Ecole | because they're a pita :) |
| 16:36.26 | [Liquidor] | Well what other options do I have? |
| 16:36.37 | Shirik|Ecole | That usually depends on your application |
| 16:36.50 | [Liquidor] | Hmm |
| 16:36.53 | Shirik|Ecole | however, they can be nice to you |
| 16:37.00 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't think there's much documentation on them unfortunately |
| 16:37.03 | Shirik|Ecole | I haven't seen much at least |
| 16:37.15 | [Liquidor] | I know, that's why I'm struggling |
| 16:37.23 | Nom- | the blizz calendar doesn't have SV |
| 16:37.29 | Nom- | It's all server side |
| 16:37.48 | [Liquidor] | I'm trying with a simple CreateFrame("ScrollFrame"... ,FauxScrollFrameTemplate) but I end up not being able to use scripts on it |
| 16:38.00 | Shirik|Ecole | to quote the cogwheel and zoot |
| 16:38.03 | Shirik|Ecole | ~fauxscrollframe |
| 16:38.04 | purl | [fauxscrollframe] one of the first Lua/XML systems written by Blizzard for the WoW user interface. Its learning curve resembles an inverted L, and Zootfizzle hates it. Along with cogs, it is in the top five on his "dead to me" list. |
| 16:38.14 | Shirik|Ecole | oh, that's only zoot |
| 16:38.14 | *** part/#wowuidev theduke (i=user@chello084113137160.3.13.vie.surfer.at) |
| 16:38.15 | Shirik|Ecole | nm |
| 16:38.50 | [Liquidor] | So ehm |
| 16:38.55 | [Liquidor] | It's not possible? |
| 16:38.57 | Shirik|Ecole | unfortunately I don't have a good answer for you |
| 16:39.06 | Shirik|Ecole | I would look for something like a map addon |
| 16:39.11 | Shirik|Ecole | they probably use scroll frames |
| 16:39.14 | [Liquidor] | This is what I'm trying to do in Lua: http://www.wowwiki.com/Making_a_scrollable_list_using_FauxScrollFrameTemplate#MyModScrollBar.xml |
| 16:39.14 | Shirik|Ecole | and then reverse engineer it |
| 16:39.26 | cbreak | I use FauxScrollFrame in one of my addons |
| 16:39.32 | cbreak | but I create the frame in XML |
| 16:39.38 | cbreak | and I don't remember how I created it |
| 16:39.51 | cbreak | (I think it involved evolutionary code development) |
| 16:40.45 | Castigo | shirik if the solution to the bugs isn't earned, is worth nothing btw |
| 16:41.02 | Castigo | my questions of earlier on were more related to entering |
| 16:42.00 | [Liquidor] | Meh screw this. I'm doing it in xml |
| 16:42.06 | AckisWork | any ruby experts here that wouldn't mind looking over two pastey's of code to help me optimize? |
| 16:42.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Ose (n=chatzill@static142-224.adsl.no) |
| 16:43.04 | Castigo | i still have many doubts into the understanding of |
| 16:43.07 | ShaneSveller | AckisWork: i won't qualify myself as an expert by any stretch but i'll look |
| 16:43.10 | Castigo | how to integrate ace into ur addon btw |
| 16:43.13 | *** topic/#WoWUIDev by Cairenn -> http://wowuidev.pastey.net/ | 2.4.x ToC: 20400 | #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting | 2 sleeps! |
| 16:43.25 | ShaneSveller | Castigo: http://www.wowace.com/projects/ace3/pages/getting-started/ |
| 16:43.31 | *** join/#wowuidev kaiden (n=kaiden@c-71-231-115-214.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 16:43.39 | AckisWork | ShaneSveller: http://ace.pastey.net/97450 and http://ace.pastey.net/97452 comments on what I need to do are in the pastey's |
| 16:43.45 | Castigo | Shane i did read it, but i am still much dubious in many points |
| 16:43.56 | [Liquidor] | Castigo, import libraries, convert your functions into methods (Addon:function) etc |
| 16:44.39 | ShaneSveller | Castigo: see also http://old.wowace.com/wiki/WelcomeHome_-_Your_first_Ace3_Addon |
| 16:44.53 | zenzelezz | Cairenn: two sleeps? But you don't even have one |
| 16:44.58 | [Liquidor] | ShaneSveller, first link would be better |
| 16:45.06 | Castigo | Shane i saw that, but i am trying actually to integrate just FEW of the Ace3 and not it all |
| 16:45.15 | Castigo | which is where my problems are starting actually :P |
| 16:45.31 | [Liquidor] | What part of Ace3 is it you want? |
| 16:45.42 | [Liquidor] | (Which libraries) |
| 16:45.43 | Cairenn | zenzelezz: 2 sleeps until I get on a plane for Blizzcon! |
| 16:45.54 | Castigo | db, and configdialog |
| 16:45.57 | zenzelezz | ... but you never sleep o_O |
| 16:45.59 | Castigo | configregistry |
| 16:45.59 | nevcairiel | Assuming you do sleep |
| 16:46.28 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 16:46.30 | Castigo | sleep? what's that |
| 16:46.32 | Castigo | ? |
| 16:46.49 | Jagannath | How hard would it be to make an addon that would place a marker in the combatlog when you changed zones/instances, so you could later sort the log into seperate log based on zone? |
| 16:47.12 | zenzelezz | so it's almost Blizzcon time, eh |
| 16:47.30 | zenzelezz | let's hope Tierre is going this year too |
| 16:47.40 | Jagannath | I kinda wish I still had directtv for that polar bear mount lol. |
| 16:47.43 | cbreak | I don't think anyone but blizzard can decide what gets written into the combat log |
| 16:47.44 | Cairenn | can't wait can't wait can't wait no pictures can't wait can't wait |
| 16:48.00 | zenzelezz | you're fighting a losing battle on the pictures |
| 16:48.10 | Shirik|Ecole | selective reading? |
| 16:48.36 | zenzelezz | all lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest |
| 16:48.40 | Cairenn | I know, but I can try |
| 16:48.50 | zenzelezz | if you can't place the quote, you fail |
| 16:49.14 | Jagannath | cbreak: Dang, you sure? You can't just have it log a little note inside the log? Something like, <date> *Leaving zone A* <date> *Entering zone B* |
| 16:49.36 | cbreak | I am 90% sure. |
| 16:49.57 | Nom- | hmm painful |
| 16:50.08 | Nom- | it appears that blizz has gone and changes the API to use absolute rather than relative dates |
| 16:50.19 | Nom- | and provided no method to calculate the date based on an offset |
| 16:50.42 | Nom- | And no method to determine the number of days in a month... this is going to be painful :) |
| 16:51.30 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (n=nevin@c-76-24-240-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 16:51.30 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 16:51.37 | Shirik|Ecole | Any EE guys here? (Familiar with Common-Emitter BJT configurations) |
| 16:55.31 | Maldivia | luckily, haven't had to touch that for some years now :) |
| 16:59.44 | Shirik|Ecole | and word keeps saying "microamps" is misspelled :( |
| 16:59.57 | Castigo | omfg it ALMOST works :P |
| 17:00.09 | Castigo | guys who of you got experience with ace config? |
| 17:00.52 | Kaso | what is the problem? on irc its best to just ask. |
| 17:00.57 | Kaso | or as purl would put it; |
| 17:01.01 | Kaso | ~justask |
| 17:01.05 | Castigo | well problem is that if i type my /slashcommand it works |
| 17:01.08 | Kaso | ~just ask |
| 17:01.09 | purl | just ask your question - do not ask to ask. when you ask, ask all on one line - tell us what you did, what you saw, and what you expected to see. |
| 17:01.14 | Kaso | there we go |
| 17:01.22 | Castigo | but it doesn't appear into blizzard addon configuration menu for don't know which reason |
| 17:01.22 | Maldivia | ~botsnack |
| 17:01.23 | purl | thanks, Maldivia |
| 17:02.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-76-115-111-253.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 17:03.13 | Castigo | purl you mean something like "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die." |
| 17:03.15 | Castigo | ? |
| 17:04.27 | Castigo | nah fact is one if i type /myslashcommand it popup the configuration ui as i designed it, but there is NO track of it into the blizzard ui to configure addons |
| 17:04.35 | alestane | Did purl become a replicant while I wasn't looking? |
| 17:05.00 | foxlit | Hm, I wonder |
| 17:05.43 | Castigo | aswell wasn't supposed to be implemented a tabard interface like the keyring one? |
| 17:05.45 | foxlit | I'm building a slight graph model, and I'm currently using two separate tables to keep track of the same edge (one for the outgoing tables on the source node, one for the incoming edges on the destination node) |
| 17:05.53 | jaxdahl2 | is the cursor user-modifiable? |
| 17:06.04 | foxlit | jaxdahl2: with limitations, yes. |
| 17:06.10 | jaxdahl2 | i find myself more frequently losing the cursor in wotlk |
| 17:06.11 | foxlit | I could, of course, use a single table per-edge |
| 17:06.45 | foxlit | But that seems slightly wasteful. On the other hand, it's prettier than keeping the same data in two places. Opinions? |
| 17:06.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Lunessa (n=Lunessa@WoWUIDev/Lunessa) |
| 17:06.59 | foxlit | jaxdahl2: define "more frequently" -- when you do what? |
| 17:07.15 | ShaneSveller | jaxdahl2: maybe look into http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info11083-_CursorWotLKBeta.html or follow the directions at http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info9210-CustomCursor-WC3Undead.html |
| 17:07.18 | foxlit | Custom cursors regularly drop if you move out of the frame you set them over; you can't keep a custom cursor over the world frame, iirc. |
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| 17:11.10 | Castigo | brb, going to see if they need me to raid |
| 17:12.20 | Shirik|Ecole | batbot: return "\1" |
| 17:12.26 | Shirik|Ecole | lua> return "\1" |
| 17:14.02 | theduke | can't event-functions (functions registered for an event) call other functions? |
| 17:14.40 | Kaso | Sure, anything can call whatever it wants |
| 17:14.50 | Kaso | What issue are you seeing |
| 17:14.54 | Kaso | lua> return "\00308,01AWESOME" |
| 17:14.55 | lua_bot | Kaso: AWESOME |
| 17:15.05 | Kaso | damn |
| 17:15.09 | Kaso | i hate +c ! |
| 17:15.21 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Nechckn] by ChanServ |
| 17:15.25 | Lunessa | Oh, Station. |
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| 17:16.56 | theduke | ok than I just screwed up my code ^^ |
| 17:16.56 | theduke | the issue: |
| 17:16.56 | theduke | if(func1() and func2()) then .... both should return true or falls, but neither gets called |
| 17:17.29 | Kaso | if func1() returns false/nil func2() wont get called |
| 17:17.43 | Kaso | but you say that func1() does not get called either? |
| 17:17.47 | theduke | i know, but func1() does not get called either |
| 17:17.55 | theduke | checked it |
| 17:18.27 | theduke | the line immediately before the if statement gets called though |
| 17:18.46 | Maldivia | try pasting the exact line? |
| 17:19.13 | boshi | has anyone heard when the 4850/4870 will be released for the Mac ? |
| 17:19.29 | theduke | if(DukeCry_CheckCooldown() and DukeCry_IsApplicable()) then |
| 17:20.25 | Maldivia | and those methods exists ? (ie, they are nol nil in that scope?) |
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| 17:21.17 | Kaso | perhaps paste a chunk of code to pastey.net post at least both function declarations and the chunk around the if statements |
| 17:21.20 | theduke | yes , both do... they are right before the function supposed to call them |
| 17:22.57 | Shirik|Ecole | ffs, Office 2007 changed way too much. How do you create chart titles/axis titles? |
| 17:23.35 | Shirik|Ecole | nm |
| 17:23.39 | theduke | http://pastey.net/97619 |
| 17:23.59 | Lunessa | Shirik|Ecole: If you get stuck, I deal with Office 2007 daily. |
| 17:24.17 | Maldivia | theduke: did you just change your code to include the "s" ? |
| 17:24.31 | zenzelezz | Shirik|Ecole: what Lunessa is saying is "sucks to be you" |
| 17:24.38 | Shirik|Ecole | Apparently I have to click one of these "chart layout" things |
| 17:24.55 | Lunessa | Actually, what I'm saying is "Sucks to be me." |
| 17:25.12 | theduke | nah, the s were in there before, i just changed them for the channel |
| 17:25.59 | Maldivia | theduke: and unitname == "player" ? |
| 17:26.21 | inviso | I officially live in the best state... http://news.cnet.com/bank-robber-hires-decoys-on-craigslist-fools-cops/ |
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| 17:27.14 | theduke | i checked that too by placing a message() after the if.. it worked |
| 17:27.14 | theduke | the event is UNIT_HEALTH, so player will be in there |
| 17:27.20 | foxlit | grrr cnet |
| 17:27.35 | foxlit | I must've blocked one of their webservers, cause none of their CSS shows up |
| 17:28.15 | Lunessa | inviso: saw that last week. Pretty funny. |
| 17:28.59 | Nom- | finally |
| 17:29.01 | Nom- | found something that works |
| 17:29.25 | Maldivia | theduke: well, from the looks of it, the code should work |
| 17:29.36 | ScytheBlade1 | In python, ints are all passed by reference, yes? Anyone know? |
| 17:29.42 | Maldivia | theduke: any lua errors while running it? |
| 17:30.04 | ShaneSveller | ScytheBlade1: let me grab my textbook from my python class last year |
| 17:30.17 | ScytheBlade1 | ShaneSveller: if you could that'd be awesome |
| 17:30.37 | Shirik|Ecole | ScytheBlade1, in Python, everything is passed by death |
| 17:30.39 | ShaneSveller | why it's in my drawer at work, i don't know |
| 17:30.47 | ScytheBlade1 | ShaneSveller: noted |
| 17:30.49 | ScytheBlade1 | err |
| 17:30.51 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik|Ecole: noted |
| 17:31.20 | Maldivia | ScytheBlade1: aren't ints immutable? |
| 17:31.28 | ShaneSveller | ScytheBlade1: are you talking literals? |
| 17:31.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Maldivia: that's what I'm wondering |
| 17:31.47 | Shirik|Ecole | ScytheBlade1: As I am reading, "All parameters are passed by reference" |
| 17:31.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Say I pass an int to a function, and change it in the function without returning it |
| 17:32.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Post execution, does it have the old or new value? |
| 17:32.18 | Shirik|Ecole | > Assignment (potentially) alters the reference rather |
| 17:32.18 | Shirik|Ecole | > than the value to which it refers. |
| 17:32.27 | ScytheBlade1 | boo k |
| 17:32.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Answers that |
| 17:32.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan_L@adsl-177-36-126.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 17:32.41 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 17:32.41 | Maldivia | ScytheBlade1: pased by value |
| 17:32.43 | kneeki | Fracking hell |
| 17:32.49 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah |
| 17:32.54 | kneeki | People need to stop changing the layout of the Wowwiki |
| 17:33.02 | Shirik|Ecole | that's confusing |
| 17:33.07 | Maldivia | or well, esentially passed by value, as it's immutable :) |
| 17:33.10 | kneeki | Every few months the entire main page layout changes and I cannot find crap |
| 17:33.16 | Shirik|Ecole | so python calls it pass-by-reference and then just changes the reference? |
| 17:33.30 | Shirik|Ecole | why does that sound way more complex than it needs to sound? |
| 17:33.31 | Lunessa | http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/10/fed-blotter-cha.html |
| 17:35.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik|Ecole: can you paste me the line I just typed out in #shiibot? Looking for the exact syntax (for the CAPAB IDENTIFYMSG thing) |
| 17:35.31 | Shirik|Ecole | except I'm not in that channel |
| 17:35.32 | Shirik|Ecole | gg |
| 17:35.36 | Shirik|Ecole | let me log into my server |
| 17:35.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Shiibot is! |
| 17:36.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Lunessa: yeah, saw that earlier |
| 17:36.34 | Shirik|Ecole | hrm |
| 17:36.41 | Shirik|Ecole | tab completion doesn't work in bash for IRC nicks |
| 17:36.47 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 17:37.17 | *** join/#wowuidev AckisWork (i=8ee551be@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Troll/Ackis) |
| 17:37.20 | Shirik|Ecole | who said it? |
| 17:37.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Me |
| 17:37.30 | ScytheBlade1 | here |
| 17:37.34 | Shirik|Ecole | I don't see anything |
| 17:37.40 | ScytheBlade1 | there |
| 17:37.50 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm |
| 17:37.53 | ShaneSveller | Anyone have a mirror of the new 3.0.2 patch coming down on background-dler? not for ptr/beta, for live |
| 17:37.55 | ScytheBlade1 | gotta move to the next class |
| 17:37.58 | ScytheBlade1 | afk ~15 |
| 17:38.03 | Shirik|Ecole | :ScytheBlade1!n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1 PRIVMSG #shiibot :+Shirik|Ecole: can you paste me the line I just typed out in #shiibot? Looking for the exact syntax (for the CAPAB IDENTIFYMSG thing) |
| 17:38.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Awesome, ty |
| 17:38.19 | ScytheBlade1 | brb |
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| 17:39.04 | Shirik|Ecole | 2 sleeps? |
| 17:39.10 | Cairenn | 2 sleeps! |
| 17:39.23 | Maldivia | ShaneSveller: it's just an additional 317MB |
| 17:39.47 | ShaneSveller | Maldivia: yeah, but if I've got the spare bandwidth at home sitting idle, might as well get it out of the way |
| 17:39.55 | alestane | 2 sleeps. |
| 17:39.58 | Lunessa | Station Lopeppeppy, Seerah and Cairenn. |
| 17:40.07 | Maldivia | ShaneSveller: just start a torrent download? |
| 17:40.10 | Seerah | 4 sleeps :( |
| 17:40.24 | Shirik|Ecole | 3? |
| 17:40.27 | ShaneSveller | that's what i was asking for, does anyone have the torrent? |
| 17:40.28 | Shirik|Ecole | how do you get 4? |
| 17:40.34 | Seerah | we're leaving early Fri morning |
| 17:40.37 | Maldivia | ahh, the torrent - that I can handle :) |
| 17:40.42 | Shirik|Ecole | I thought Thursday? |
| 17:40.44 | Maldivia | thought you were asking for the 317MB file :) |
| 17:40.46 | Seerah | I'm working Thurs night |
| 17:40.49 | Shirik|Ecole | ah :( |
| 17:40.59 | ShaneSveller | lol well ScytheBlade1 keeps a VPS with file mirrors |
| 17:41.16 | Seerah | I have to make up work that I miss, so missing 2 days of work (Fri, Sat) is easier than missing 3 |
| 17:42.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Corgan (i=Corgan@63.249.58.84) |
| 17:42.17 | Shirik|Ecole | similar reason why I have to go back early Sunday |
| 17:42.35 | Maldivia | ShaneSveller: http://nerdheaven.dk/~the_real/302_part2.torrent |
| 17:42.52 | ShaneSveller | Maldivia: gracias |
| 17:43.08 | Maldivia | ShaneSveller: US version torrent |
| 17:43.16 | ShaneSveller | that's the one i needed, great |
| 17:43.23 | Maldivia | just to make sure :) |
| 17:45.51 | Seerah | good thing this was yesterday and not this upcoming Sunday, or I would have been pissed :P http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/45612992 |
| 17:46.51 | Lunessa | ... No one really needed to see her sing on her birthday, did they?> |
| 17:47.23 | Shirik|Ecole | "Palin, however, has single-handedly so lowered the standards both for female candidates and American political discourse that, with her newfound ability to speak in more-or-less full sentences, she is now deemed to have performed acceptably last night." |
| 17:47.28 | Seerah | they closed the whole park for her |
| 17:47.30 | Shirik|Ecole | That's an interesting (and bold) statement to make... |
| 17:47.43 | Seerah | lol |
| 17:47.46 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik|Ecole: and yet, largely accurate. |
| 17:51.58 | Lopeppeppy | Heya, Lunessa! *huggle* |
| 17:52.28 | Nom- | ugh.. the calendar API is horrible now.. you can't even programatically get the dungeon the calendar entry is for |
| 17:52.32 | Nom- | i'm not sure how that's even possible |
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| 17:53.01 | ScytheBlade1 | That's a bit better |
| 17:53.46 | Nom- | I'll have another crack tomorrow I guess... I wish they hadn't removed some of the API's they did |
| 17:54.13 | Castigo | back |
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| 17:55.02 | Castigo | back on my problem, i am using ace3config wotlk beta addon, if i type /myslashcommand the configuration of my addon shows up, if i go in menu->interface->addons my addon is not listed there, any ideas? |
| 17:55.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Probably be better to ask in #wowace |
| 17:56.31 | Castigo | that's a good idea ^^ |
| 17:57.19 | Nom- | It seems the API's i need to use are "laggy" |
| 17:57.33 | Nom- | You call the method, and it asyncronously updates the details to the one you specified |
| 17:58.04 | Nom- | Of course, if you're looping through every calendar item, that asynchronous update is epic fail |
| 17:58.16 | Nom- | oh well.. sleep time |
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| 18:15.01 | |Jelly| | http://dungeonrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/wow_motivation_poster_valor.jpg |
| 18:16.03 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 18:16.43 | Lopeppeppy | BUBBLE!!! |
| 18:17.18 | zenzelezz | peppy can join me in my bubble any day |
| 18:17.30 | Lopeppeppy | Awww, shucks. |
| 18:17.44 | ScytheBlade1 | http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/instrument/1.0/%5EDJI/chart;range=1d/image;size=239x110 |
| 18:17.47 | ScytheBlade1 | ka-boom |
| 18:18.29 | zenzelezz | what does the graph show? |
| 18:18.39 | ScytheBlade1 | The Dow |
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| 18:23.53 | smcn | oh. my. god. (nsfw) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V25OVfLsOV8 |
| 18:24.49 | foxlit | Out of interest, what does your god tell you about that? |
| 18:25.09 | foxlit | The song is pretty fail, but so is every other doll-promoting song :) |
| 18:25.50 | AckisWork | file 1: table = {blah stuff here}, foo1() { foo2(table) }; foo3(table) { do stuff to table } File 2: foo2(table) { foo1(table) } <-- the table is being passed as an argument from foo1 -> foo2 -> foo3... foo2 doesn't do anything with that table just passes it on to something else, any better implementation of this? |
| 18:26.14 | smcn | if i had a god i'd probably ask him to smite whoever came up with such an abomination |
| 18:27.12 | Dashkal | At first I thought you meant Ackis's code there :p |
| 18:27.28 | smcn | lol |
| 18:27.36 | AckisWork | :P |
| 18:28.43 | foxlit | Ackis: what language? |
| 18:28.59 | AckisWork | foxlit: lua |
| 18:29.12 | cogwheel | i wish i was a stock trader... I've always wanted to try skydiving... |
| 18:29.19 | foxlit | It's just that your foo2(table) { foo1(table) } does not parse |
| 18:29.21 | smcn | any jc on northrend-horde able to cut luminous monarch topaz and/or purified twilight opal? |
| 18:29.50 | AckisWork | foxlit: it's pseudo code just to show my intent |
| 18:30.05 | AckisWork | wait |
| 18:30.15 | foxlit | Between all the brackets, you confuse more than show anything. |
| 18:30.19 | AckisWork | foo2(table) { foo1(table) } should be foo2(table) { foo3(table) } |
| 18:30.42 | AckisWork | foo1 calls foo2(table) which calls foo3(table) |
| 18:30.51 | AckisWork | foo2 doesn't do anything to table except pass it on |
| 18:31.06 | Dashkal | oh.my.god.that's.bad... (Watched the video) |
| 18:31.33 | AckisWork | foxlit: does that make more sense? |
| 18:31.57 | foxlit | Better than the pseudocode, really :) |
| 18:32.02 | AckisWork | hehe |
| 18:32.09 | AckisWork | well I failed at the pseudocode :P |
| 18:32.25 | foxlit | You could make foo1 call foo3 directly |
| 18:33.07 | AckisWork | well it's a bit more complex... foo1 calls foo2 once and foo2 ends up calling foo3 100-500 times |
| 18:34.20 | foxlit | There's nothing terribly wrong with passing it in that case |
| 18:34.32 | AckisWork | k |
| 18:35.38 | AckisWork | it's just this big database I'm using and I've moved away from global variables (good thing) so I'm doing a lot of passing them around |
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| 18:36.01 | cogwheel | I'd like to apologize to the rest of the world on behalf of our markets... -_- |
| 18:36.41 | *** join/#wowuidev devXero (n=devZero@216-129-239-55.vnet-inc.com) |
| 18:36.44 | |Jelly| | http://www.project961.com/cc-common/gallery/thumb.php?src=/export/home//cc-common/mlib/4060/09/4060_12221098302.bmp&wmax=446&hmax=410&quality=90 |
| 18:37.54 | kd3 | jesus... what the hell is wrong with the markets? |
| 18:38.00 | kd3 | another -700 points? |
| 18:38.01 | Syzgyn | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:38.14 | cogwheel | so far... :\ |
| 18:38.33 | cogwheel | i saw it squeak below 9600 for a bit a few minutes ago |
| 18:38.50 | kd3 | just the fact that it's below 10k is horrifying enough |
| 18:38.51 | devXero | howdy, I have some code that loads Blizzard_InspectUI, then sets "InspectFrame.Show = function() end;", runs the needed code and then sets "InspectFrame.Show = nil;". The problem here is after thr function completes, I end up with intermittent inspection issues, such as the inspect UI not showing up.. This doesn't happen all the time, but it's bothering me quite a bit... Is there a proper way to restore the InspectUI? |
| 18:39.16 | AckisWork | cogwheel: isn't this crash worse than the great depression crash? |
| 18:39.41 | ShaneSveller | devXero: you've effectively disabled the function to show the inspectionframe in both spots |
| 18:39.46 | cogwheel | devXero: save the original value of InspectFrame.Show in a local function and put it back when you're done |
| 18:40.15 | cogwheel | AckisWork: points-wise, yes, but percentage-wise, not last i heard |
| 18:40.26 | devXero | cogwheel: so something like "local showit = InspectFrame.Show; <run code> InspectFrame.Show = showit" ? |
| 18:40.34 | cogwheel | yep |
| 18:40.39 | devXero | k, thanks much :) |
| 18:40.47 | cogwheel | devXero: do you happen to have WoW programming? |
| 18:41.22 | cogwheel | if so, check out the chapter on function hooking |
| 18:41.41 | devXero | nope, got a link to the book? or is it on amazon or anything? |
| 18:41.46 | cogwheel | ~wowprogramming |
| 18:41.47 | purl | World of Warcraft Programming: A Guide and Reference for Creating WoW Addons (http://tinyurl.com/5hnxob) a book written by Cladhaire, Cogwheel and Kaelten, or the companion site and API reference available online for free at http://wowprogramming.com |
| 18:42.18 | devXero | gracias |
| 18:42.36 | cogwheel | np :) |
| 18:42.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Quarak (n=Quarak@80-247-22-30.cust.zycomm.uk.net) |
| 18:43.47 | Quarak | Good evening folks |
| 18:44.46 | cogwheel | 'ello |
| 18:44.51 | cogwheel | oh and |
| 18:44.52 | cogwheel | ~ugt |
| 18:44.53 | purl | methinks ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 18:44.54 | cogwheel | :P |
| 18:45.24 | Quarak | What if I'm half asleep? |
| 18:45.49 | cogwheel | then you'll fit in quite nicely! =) |
| 18:46.00 | Dewin | What if someone never actually leaves the channel because their computer is on 24/7 and they lurk? |
| 18:46.02 | |Jelly| | http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x160/thebatusi/motivation_network_cable.jpg |
| 18:46.25 | kd3 | I just don't name times in that case, dewin |
| 18:46.59 | kd3 | and whee, here comes -800 |
| 18:47.09 | devXero | oh dear god... Jelly, that looks like my last job |
| 18:47.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Nargiddley (n=narg@203-97-236-74.cable.telstraclear.net) |
| 18:48.11 | Quarak | Well wish me luck, I finaly gave in and decided that if you want a job doing how you like it you have to do it yourself. So i'm taking teh plunge and learing to write my own addon |
| 18:48.14 | cogwheel | i wonder what the R-value is for that bundle of cords >< |
| 18:48.37 | cogwheel | Quarak: good luck! you're in the right place :) |
| 18:48.48 | ShaneSveller | |Jelly|: ahhhhh dear god why |
| 18:49.25 | cogwheel | |Jelly|: "wait a minute... I can see the unpluged cable in the picture :P Just above the RK in network" -- My wife... |
| 18:49.43 | ShaneSveller | cogwheel: ahaha what a keeper |
| 18:50.01 | NightHawkTheSane | cogwheel: holy crap, she's right |
| 18:50.22 | Quarak | I'm an ex C++ programmer and web designer played around with a fair few scripting languages but never looked at Lua before today so should be a fun learning curve |
| 18:50.23 | ShaneSveller | Quarak: what've you decided needs fixing? cause there's plenty to go around, especially with 3.0 coming |
| 18:51.00 | Quarak | Nothing to major really ShaneSveller, Just a healing assignment mod that does things just how I want it |
| 18:51.17 | ShaneSveller | Quarak: gotcha. |
| 18:51.27 | Quarak | The HealOrganizer on Ace is close, but not quite there |
| 18:52.13 | Quarak | And I'm bored of having about 20 off notpadd files to cut and paste with name changes to assign healing for fights / phases |
| 18:52.55 | |Jelly| | cogwheel: your wife scares the living shit out of me |
| 18:52.59 | foxlit | That amount of effort may meant that you're micromanaging people a little too much :) |
| 18:53.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-76-22-0-105.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 18:53.08 | foxlit | s/eant/ean/ |
| 18:53.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphen (n=gryphon@71.216.187.10) |
| 18:53.49 | cogwheel | |Jelly|: "I think you just won the channel ><" -- Me to my wife |
| 18:54.43 | Quarak | Sometimes aye I'm guilty |
| 18:54.45 | |Jelly| | "[Tinyshammy]: k ill pst him ty" /sigh |
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| 19:06.51 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Bibi] by ChanServ |
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| 19:12.31 | Lunessa | |Jelly|: She's a sweetheart. Just don |
| 19:12.42 | ccox | Quarak: I'm a C++/assembly programmer. Lua took about 2 days to learn most of it. There are some quirks that will take longer (don't trust the # operator!). |
| 19:12.45 | Lunessa | Just don't let her be in charge of Fueng-Shei |
| 19:13.13 | |Jelly| | Lunessa: http://i30.tinypic.com/30beau0.jpg |
| 19:13.43 | Lunessa | Jelly.... http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w227/matt_converse/Hurricane%20Ike/ |
| 19:14.43 | |Jelly| | [14:13]<|Jelly|>Lunessa: http://i30.tinypic.com/30beau0.jpg |
| 19:15.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Neuro_Medivh (n=neuro@pool-96-226-8-74.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 19:16.09 | alestane | the # operator is simple. It returns the array length of a table. (It does NOT return the number of non-nil keys in that table.) |
| 19:16.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi` (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-13-125.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:16.18 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Bibi`] by ChanServ |
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| 19:17.15 | ShaneSveller | cogwheel: are you guys planning on keeping the wowprogramming.com docs up to date for 3.0? |
| 19:18.16 | Neuro_Medivh | wow, they changed the DK creation rules |
| 19:18.26 | *** join/#wowuidev RockSlice (i=kvirc@c-76-123-69-54.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 19:18.32 | Josh_Borke | whaT?! |
| 19:18.44 | Neuro_Medivh | Q. What if I have a level 55 character on one realm but want to create a death knight on another realm to play with friends? |
| 19:18.44 | Neuro_Medivh | A. At the launch of Wrath of the Lich King, you will only be able to create a death knight on the same realm where you have an existing level 55 or higher character. In the future, we plan to allow the creation of a death knight on any realm (provided you have at least one level 55+ character). |
| 19:18.47 | NeoTron | you're no longer allowed to create one! |
| 19:18.48 | kd3 | for wrath release, they're limiting it to realms you have a 55 on |
| 19:18.52 | Neuro_Medivh | posted by neth |
| 19:19.07 | alestane | I always that that was the requirement anyway. |
| 19:19.11 | Josh_Borke | blah |
| 19:19.11 | Lunessa | That was the original deal. |
| 19:19.33 | Neuro_Medivh | at some point along the way, they said you could just have a 55 anywhere |
| 19:19.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Kirov (n=Kirov@c-67-180-82-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 19:19.45 | Neuro_Medivh | this way makes more sense |
| 19:19.50 | Josh_Borke | man, that means i have to lvl something |
| 19:19.50 | Josh_Borke | blah |
| 19:20.01 | |Jelly| | http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/fail-at-failing.jpg |
| 19:20.03 | Neuro_Medivh | lol, that takes like a day |
| 19:20.11 | |Jelly| | Lunessa: Can still be hugz teim nao? |
| 19:20.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@89.240.9.112) |
| 19:20.37 | Lunessa | AFK.. laptop config time. |
| 19:21.26 | ccox | the bluescreen is a fake - it's a screensaver |
| 19:21.31 | ccox | but it still looks funny |
| 19:22.03 | |Jelly| | ... |
| 19:22.15 | |Jelly| | You just murdered my inner child. I hope you're happy. |
| 19:24.56 | Fogger2 | what can u do if your regged nick is taken? |
| 19:25.15 | Josh_Borke | Fogger2: as in someone else owns it? |
| 19:25.22 | Josh_Borke | Fogger2: or you got disconnected? |
| 19:25.23 | Fogger2 | no, its in use |
| 19:25.26 | Fogger2 | i own it |
| 19:25.36 | Josh_Borke | Fogger2: use /msg nickserv ghost <name> |
| 19:25.42 | Josh_Borke | or /msg nickserv help ghost |
| 19:25.46 | Josh_Borke | i don't remember the exact syntax |
| 19:25.47 | Fogger2 | ty again :) |
| 19:25.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik|Ecole (n=nospam@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 19:25.50 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Ecole] by ChanServ |
| 19:26.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-88-110.w86-205.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:26.09 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Bibi] by ChanServ |
| 19:27.32 | kneeki | :) |
| 19:28.10 | Fogger2 | #lua Cannot send to channel so cannot change nicks :\ |
| 19:28.40 | Fogger | aha, just left #lua |
| 19:30.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Nargiddley (n=narg@203-97-236-74.cable.telstraclear.net) |
| 19:30.25 | *** join/#wowuidev hardw1re (n=r3t39@wrightfamilee.plus.com) |
| 19:31.28 | jaxdahl2 | http://jax2.zenblue.net/dk3.png my DK looks pretty wicked |
| 19:31.52 | Dewin | Is that a gnome DK? |
| 19:32.05 | Fogger | mine is gnome too :) |
| 19:32.08 | Dewin | that's just not right. |
| 19:32.19 | Fogger | its the only option imo ;) |
| 19:32.22 | Dewin | Oh look a cute little innocent GNOME OF DEATH I KILL YOU ALL |
| 19:32.47 | Dewin | Anybody here play hunter on PTR/beta? |
| 19:32.49 | *** part/#wowuidev ShaneSveller (n=mellerfa@64-199-29-162.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 19:32.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 19:33.22 | Dewin | Or hunter in general I guess |
| 19:33.40 | Dewin | I'm trying to figure out roughly how many pets it is possible to keep levelled up |
| 19:34.08 | ccox | Dewin - depends on how much time you want to spend |
| 19:34.15 | ccox | Dewin: I wouldn't try to keep more than 2 |
| 19:34.19 | Fogger | For Gnomeregan! http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dkts0.jpg |
| 19:34.38 | Dewin | ccox: I don't mind switching out as soon as one levels, but I don't want to specifically have to spend time just levelling my pet. |
| 19:34.46 | Dewin | I also don't mind if they're 1-2 levels behind, but nothing more. |
| 19:35.10 | ccox | yeah, but you'll end up spending time just levelling your pet |
| 19:35.40 | Dewin | I'm thinking of retiring the nightsaber I've had since lv10 for lynxskinred http://petopia.brashendeavors.net/html/skins/skin_lynxskinred.php |
| 19:35.42 | ccox | at least now we don't have to chase down and tame pets for spells/talents |
| 19:35.54 | Dewin | especially now that in 3.0 I'll be able to get one that's 65 instead of... 7. |
| 19:36.54 | Dewin | I'm also retiring my windserpent pretty much permanently, but he has much less history than my kitty |
| 19:37.12 | Dewin | Only history for him is his name ("Loca" aka crazy because I had to be crazy to run into ST at the level I did and solo tame him) |
| 19:38.40 | Dewin | but I also want to level a gorilla pet for the AE tanking abilities |
| 19:39.41 | jaxdahl2 | i believe they reduced the experience to level for pets |
| 19:39.46 | jaxdahl2 | 1/16 to 1/10 ? |
| 19:39.49 | alestane | Bears can swipe, too, so there's another tanking option. |
| 19:39.56 | Dewin | Swipe is just 3 targets though, no? |
| 19:40.00 | jaxdahl2 | er, i worded that wrong |
| 19:40.00 | Dewin | unless they're making it like druid swipe |
| 19:40.12 | jaxdahl2 | they get 1/10 the xp you get as opposed to 1/16 from before |
| 19:41.01 | Dewin | Thunderstomp is specifically listed as causing a moderate amount of additional threat, where Swipe isn't |
| 19:41.32 | alestane | On the other hand, Swipe probably does more damage. |
| 19:41.38 | Dewin | My current pet can't keep things off me unless I go an entire fight without crits soo... |
| 19:41.38 | jaxdahl2 | all the hunters i know are survival, heh |
| 19:41.45 | Dewin | I'm BM |
| 19:41.53 | jaxdahl2 | well i don't know you |
| 19:42.01 | Dewin | Probably will stay that way too, though I'm contemplating tinkering with surv |
| 19:42.24 | jaxdahl2 | http://jax2.zenblue.net/sws5/sws-patchwerk-1223241809/index.html see those hunters? they're surv |
| 19:42.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.146.117.79) |
| 19:43.16 | Dewin | Interesting, and still topping the dps charts |
| 19:43.28 | Dewin | Does that merge pets w/ their owners? |
| 19:43.40 | jaxdahl2 | yes |
| 19:43.45 | jaxdahl2 | click on them to see details |
| 19:44.23 | Dewin | Any of them have links to their talent specs? |
| 19:44.25 | NeoTron | survival hunters still top DPS? In my premade pvp on dummy testing, I got the worst dps with survival and amount the same with marks/BM |
| 19:44.29 | Dewin | (or, can you wowarmoy people in beta?) |
| 19:44.47 | Dewin | I meant 'still topping' as in 'topping the DPS even though they're survival instead of, say, BM' |
| 19:45.04 | jaxdahl2 | can't armory in beta |
| 19:45.11 | Dewin | From what I've heard surv has the lowest overall DPS but the best mana retention of the 3 specs. |
| 19:45.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi` (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-19-176.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:45.19 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Bibi`] by ChanServ |
| 19:45.48 | NeoTron | jaxdahl2: out of curiosity, got any rogue DPS? |
| 19:46.08 | jaxdahl2 | http://jax2.zenblue.net/sws5/ check the saturday raids |
| 19:46.15 | Dewin | what spec is Miji in there? |
| 19:46.36 | jaxdahl2 | i don't know, i think he's undergeared though compared to the other hunters |
| 19:46.41 | jaxdahl2 | http://jax2.zenblue.net/sws/ more rogues here |
| 19:46.46 | Dewin | Ahh. |
| 19:46.56 | Dewin | I'd love to know how those top 4 hunters specced though |
| 19:47.01 | NeoTron | jaxdahl2: hmm, that warlock must be dumb or something. 1651 DPS?! heh |
| 19:47.04 | Dewin | I'd like to compare it with the surv spec I built on wowhead. |
| 19:47.06 | jaxdahl2 | log onto lich king |
| 19:47.13 | jaxdahl2 | and ask 'em if they're online |
| 19:47.15 | Dewin | I'm not in the beta. |
| 19:47.20 | *** join/#wowuidev ShaneSveller (n=mellerfa@64-199-29-162.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 19:47.22 | jaxdahl2 | okay |
| 19:47.23 | Dewin | Just PTR. |
| 19:47.39 | Dewin | And while I see the option on wowinterface.com to request a beta key as an addon author |
| 19:47.45 | Dewin | I don't think Progression's far enough along to be worth it |
| 19:47.54 | jaxdahl2 | that lock was in blues IIRC |
| 19:48.26 | Dewin | How long is the Patchwek fight? |
| 19:48.35 | jaxdahl2 | you can see on the top |
| 19:48.43 | ShaneSveller | Dewin: I've done it in about 5 minutes |
| 19:49.03 | ShaneSveller | With about 5 DKs running around |
| 19:49.14 | Dewin | So fairly short, not the type you're likely to hit MP issues on? |
| 19:49.39 | ShaneSveller | MP? |
| 19:49.55 | NeoTron | seems most DPS DK's ar unholy spec |
| 19:50.11 | Dewin | I'm used to having mana issues on long prolonged fights |
| 19:50.12 | ShaneSveller | Dewin: ignore me altogether |
| 19:50.24 | Dewin | (especially if my pet decides to die a bajillion times >.>) |
| 19:50.36 | ShaneSveller | Dewin: I'm thinking of the boss at the end of DK starter zone, not the Naxx boss |
| 19:51.38 | Tekkub | http://www.threepanelsoul.com/ |
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| 19:55.49 | foxlit | http://www.threepanelsoul.com/view.php?date=2008-07-08 amusing |
| 19:56.01 | jaxdahl2 | thaddius is fairly long, but hunters still end up on top |
| 19:56.44 | NeoTron | so it's fair to say that hunters QQing should just STFU |
| 19:56.53 | NeoTron | especially the "survival is uselss" crows |
| 19:59.17 | ccox | hmm, does anaheim deserve a rental car, or just take cabs/shuttles? |
| 19:59.29 | Lopeppeppy | Depends on where you're staying? |
| 20:00.01 | ccox | Crowne Plaza Fullerton is the current plan |
| 20:00.17 | Lopeppeppy | Dunno where that is in relation to the con. |
| 20:00.28 | jaxdahl2 | you know, unholy DKs + frost DK is awesome on maexxna |
| 20:00.29 | ccox | they have a shuttle to Dizney (less than 5 miles) |
| 20:00.31 | Lopeppeppy | I know Benihana's is a bit out of the way. |
| 20:00.43 | jaxdahl2 | all the unholy DKs have to do is keep up their diseases on maexxna |
| 20:00.52 | ccox | the question is: do I want to drive in LA? |
| 20:00.55 | jaxdahl2 | and I, the frost DK, hit pestilence then howling blast |
| 20:01.02 | zenzelezz | get a rental, then everyone will know you can afford more than the monthly subscription |
| 20:01.08 | jaxdahl2 | and wandering plague from the unholy DKs finishes them off |
| 20:01.26 | jaxdahl2 | http://jax2.zenblue.net/sws5/sws-maexxna-1223240674/group_0xf13000429f005cff.html |
| 20:01.53 | NeoTron | I liked blood DK on maexxna, at least in crap pvp gear |
| 20:02.05 | NeoTron | Heart Strike helps a lot on the enrage removing the haste part of it |
| 20:02.37 | jaxdahl2 | it affects that? |
| 20:02.42 | NeoTron | I believe so yes |
| 20:02.49 | NeoTron | specifically it nullifies it |
| 20:02.52 | jaxdahl2 | stacks with stolen heat? |
| 20:03.15 | jaxdahl2 | ie, frost fever/tclap |
| 20:03.23 | NeoTron | different functionality |
| 20:03.26 | NightHawkTheSane | they do different things, so presumably so. |
| 20:03.45 | NeoTron | "Prevents target from using haste effects for 10 sec." |
| 20:03.53 | jaxdahl2 | i'd like to see a combat log parse if you have a chance |
| 20:03.54 | NeoTron | I'm pretty sure that is considered a haste effect |
| 20:04.14 | NeoTron | I don't have one unfortunately and we're seemingly pretty done doing beta raiding atm |
| 20:04.31 | NeoTron | http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=55327 |
| 20:04.33 | NeoTron | hmm |
| 20:04.38 | NeoTron | [Apply Aura]: Melee Slow |
| 20:04.39 | NeoTron | Value: -10 |
| 20:04.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Guest083 (n=Unregist@65.121.210.146) |
| 20:04.48 | NeoTron | not sure wht that means |
| 20:04.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Pneumatus_ (n=WiN@unaffiliated/pneumatus) |
| 20:05.24 | NeoTron | seems like it just reduces 10% haste |
| 20:06.02 | jaxdahl2 | http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=54124 |
| 20:06.05 | NeoTron | so Frenzy applies 50% haste |
| 20:06.11 | NeoTron | HS removes 10% or something |
| 20:06.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@89.240.10.88) |
| 20:06.43 | NeoTron | not sure what the relationship is between Melee Slow and Haste - Melee |
| 20:06.58 | Mike-N-Go_ | Rabbitbunny: ping |
| 20:07.00 | NeoTron | still it should if nothing else reduce the impact |
| 20:07.07 | jaxdahl2 | http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=55327 |
| 20:07.39 | jaxdahl2 | isn't the tooltip misleading if it's just -10 though? |
| 20:07.47 | NeoTron | yeah very much so |
| 20:07.57 | jaxdahl2 | test it on a rogue |
| 20:08.16 | jaxdahl2 | http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=6774 |
| 20:08.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 20:08.38 | NeoTron | I suspect "melee slow" just affects speed gained from haste and doesn't make them target hit slower if he/she/it doesn't have any haste bonus |
| 20:09.10 | *** part/#wowuidev ShaneSveller (n=mellerfa@64-199-29-162.ip.mcleodusa.net) |
| 20:09.24 | NeoTron | it's kind of weird too that it says "melee slow" and "-10"... wouldn't that mean it's a haste effect? :P |
| 20:11.42 | foxlit | -10 is a reserved value o indicate a specific brand of melee slow, then. |
| 20:12.01 | foxlit | Plus, it's wowhead. DBC parsing is mostly guesswork anyway |
| 20:12.37 | cogwheel | http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/06/1915217 |
| 20:12.38 | NeoTron | it might be |
| 20:14.46 | NeoTron | Thottbott says it's a general -10% haste on melee/ranged/cast speed |
| 20:16.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Yssaril (n=Yssaril@adsl-99-145-231-186.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:17.10 | Industrial | Anyone know a resource for proferrably unwatermarked high quality widescreen (16:10 eg 1680x1050) wallpapers of anime series? Looking for stuff like http://images.gammatester.com/pics/ff06400284b4b81e0df898ddea305734.jpg |
| 20:17.18 | Industrial | but without the side-girl and lame scanlines |
| 20:17.30 | kd3 | hongfire? |
| 20:17.40 | Industrial | hongwhat? |
| 20:17.58 | kd3 | http://hongfire.com/cg/ |
| 20:19.25 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring__ (n=copystri@p548A168A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:19.39 | Industrial | k |
| 20:19.42 | Lopeppeppy | Later, gators. |
| 20:19.47 | cogwheel | rawr |
| 20:19.52 | Gryphen | ono i esceared of teh rawr! i need a huggle. |
| 20:19.58 | Lopeppeppy | RAWR! |
| 20:20.04 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@141.222.30.131) |
| 20:25.02 | NeoTron | http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqu0IsboxzhZZfMhhxzkx0o < blood/unholy (heartstrike/master of ghouls) build I am considering testing out |
| 20:27.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.165.28) |
| 20:29.23 | AckisWork | Is there a version of GetTradeSkillRecipeLink(index) that works off of SpellID? |
| 20:31.28 | AckisWork | lol |
| 20:32.50 | ccox | NeoTron: looks interesting, though I haven't found SuddenDoom to be useful |
| 20:33.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Tem (i=d195b804@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 20:33.38 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Tem] by ChanServ |
| 20:33.54 | Tem | c++ people, help me out |
| 20:34.16 | Tem | it's been so long since I've been in c++ land that I don't remember how this works |
| 20:34.30 | Tem | suppose I have a struct named A |
| 20:34.49 | Tem | and I need to create a new instance of it |
| 20:34.58 | Tem | what's the "right" way to do that? |
| 20:35.19 | NeoTron | ccox: it is pretty useful now though |
| 20:35.21 | zenzelezz | you mean another instance with duplicate values? |
| 20:35.25 | Tem | no |
| 20:35.27 | NightHawkTheSane | A newStruct = new A; |
| 20:35.27 | Dewin | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:35.39 | NeoTron | even on my level 79 (now 80) dk in leveling gear I get >2k crits etc |
| 20:35.40 | Tem | okay, so the new operator |
| 20:35.44 | ccox | A *newstruct = new A, new returns a pointer |
| 20:35.55 | NightHawkTheSane | ah, yes |
| 20:35.55 | Dewin | ccox's is technically more accurate. |
| 20:36.03 | Tem | okay |
| 20:36.04 | Tem | so |
| 20:36.04 | Dewin | though you might want the (), especially if passing args to the c-tor |
| 20:36.10 | Tem | if it's created with new |
| 20:36.16 | Tem | do you have to explicity delete? |
| 20:36.18 | Dewin | then it needs to be deleted with delete |
| 20:36.21 | NeoTron | also avoidnign sudden doom just gives you more healing capabilities which really don't increase dps |
| 20:36.32 | zenzelezz | Tem: strictly speaking no, but you should |
| 20:36.46 | Dewin | well if you don't it's a memleak |
| 20:36.48 | ccox | there are also many factor/maker patterns that some people use for creating objects - but that gets into programming religion |
| 20:37.03 | ccox | NeoTron: yes, but healing increases survival |
| 20:37.08 | NeoTron | ccox: mainly though, I have no idea how the dps ends up at but I'd like to try it :) |
| 20:37.16 | Dewin | if you want to create it on the stack, I believe you do A newstruct = A(argsToCtor) w/o the new. |
| 20:37.17 | ccox | NeoTron: go for it |
| 20:37.23 | NeoTron | for soloing sure but in a raid I don't, shouldn't, need self healing to live |
| 20:37.29 | ccox | A newstruct(args); |
| 20:37.33 | Dewin | ah that's right |
| 20:37.36 | Tornhoof | A a(blah) |
| 20:37.37 | Dewin | My C++-fu is weak. |
| 20:37.47 | ccox | no need for the the assignment, and most optimizers will remove it (if you have optimization enabled) |
| 20:38.06 | Neuro_Medivh | NeoTron, self-healing is another form of threat as well |
| 20:38.08 | Dewin | ccox: I remember doing it the 'correct' way now that you mention it ;) |
| 20:38.33 | NeoTron | Neuro_Medivh: I'm not worried about pulling aggro.. and it's not a tank build but sure |
| 20:38.37 | Dewin | C++ is only a hobby (now in disuse) for me, my real work is in PHP :) |
| 20:38.44 | Neuro_Medivh | Ah, thought you were talking about tanking |
| 20:38.46 | alestane | If you just want a temporary structure, you can just initialize the variable: A aCopy; Use new if you need to create a persistent copy on the free store. |
| 20:39.01 | NeoTron | nope. a pet build is pretty pointless for tanking reall |
| 20:39.28 | Neuro_Medivh | er, pet build? Oh, sorry, thought you were talking about DK |
| 20:39.57 | ccox | Neuro_Medivh: he was, ghoul == pet for unholy |
| 20:40.15 | Neuro_Medivh | Ok, I'm confused then... if you're unholy, why worry about Sudden Doom? |
| 20:40.34 | ccox | Neuro - look at the build, it's Blood/Unholy |
| 20:40.46 | Neuro_Medivh | but that means I have to scroll up! |
| 20:41.03 | NeoTron | http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqu0IsboxzhZZfMhhxzkx0o |
| 20:41.15 | NeoTron | essentially it's a different take on blood major build |
| 20:41.30 | Neuro_Medivh | you looking for advice and/or suggestions? |
| 20:41.57 | NeoTron | not really, mostly found it to be a potentially interesting build that I'll test out |
| 20:42.00 | NeoTron | at least on a test dummy |
| 20:42.27 | Neuro_Medivh | just gonna say, I'd kill the rune tap and possibly Mark of Blood |
| 20:42.46 | NeoTron | Mark of Blood is useful for raiding during boss enrage phases |
| 20:43.08 | *** join/#wowuidev morkii (i=morkii@host193-123-47-78-dhcp.bshellz.net) |
| 20:43.12 | NeoTron | rune tap is more of a filler but somewhat more useful when combined with the glyph that heals your party |
| 20:43.28 | NeoTron | plus the options are pretty much bloodworms or blood aura |
| 20:43.31 | Neuro_Medivh | Not really... if you're not gonna slap all 4 points into it, I wouldn't get it |
| 20:44.06 | Neuro_Medivh | when it's 20% and every 30 seconds, it's not bad |
| 20:44.15 | Neuro_Medivh | 13% every 50 seconds... eww |
| 20:44.29 | NeoTron | 10% of the party's health |
| 20:44.31 | NeoTron | shrug |
| 20:44.43 | *** join/#wowuidev TC-Away (n=TC@cpe-76-171-31-114.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 20:45.01 | NeoTron | blood aura has the benefit of helping the ghoul though, that's something I did not consider |
| 20:45.14 | NeoTron | ofc if he remains with zero avoidance he's likely to die all the time anyway |
| 20:45.25 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring (n=copystri@p548A168A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:45.34 | NeoTron | kind of trying to rely on a succubus in BC for raid dps |
| 20:45.58 | morkii | does anyone know if haste is updating enen/fane? |
| 20:46.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Ose (n=chatzill@static142-224.adsl.no) |
| 20:48.49 | smcn | what's the difference between cobalt/saronite prospecting? more gems and/or higher chance for blue? |
| 20:49.04 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring (n=copystri@p548A168A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:49.11 | *** join/#wowuidev |Yssaril| (n=Yssaril@adsl-99-145-231-186.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:49.23 | Neuro_Medivh | I'd guess so.. that's the difference between fel iron and adamantite |
| 20:49.29 | Neuro_Medivh | fel iron almost never gives blues |
| 20:51.51 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring (n=copystri@p548A168A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:52.09 | Industrial | kd3: http://www.hongfire.com/cg/showphoto.php/photo/111171 tyvm found this :O |
| 20:53.51 | Fogger | anyone figured out how to open AMPere from a macro? |
| 20:54.21 | Fisker- | Has there been blizzcon schedule release yet? |
| 20:54.31 | Dewin | hmm http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/06/1915217&from=rss |
| 20:55.13 | kd3 | Industrial, yw |
| 20:55.43 | Fisker- | btw Shirik you were going right? :3 |
| 20:58.45 | Industrial | im gunna go over all the pages and subscribe to rss if I can; dont want to miss any :> |
| 21:00.38 | Lunessa | Ahh... the joys of 802.11x connectivity. |
| 21:03.42 | |Yssaril| | is there anyway to make a macro use spellid's to cast a spell? |
| 21:04.08 | *** join/#wowuidev selckin (n=selckin@unaffiliated/axxo) |
| 21:05.48 | Syzgyn | |Yssaril|: /cast:12345? |
| 21:05.58 | Syzgyn | maybe no colon |
| 21:07.04 | NightHawkTheSane | "/cast spellID" should work |
| 21:07.15 | Syzgyn | yeah |
| 21:08.13 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Esamynn|Away] by ChanServ |
| 21:09.40 | Dewin | Anybody recall offhand the name of the GM in charge of lore? |
| 21:09.56 | Dewin | Wiki search is failing me. |
| 21:10.39 | |Yssaril| | NightHawkTheSane, Syzgyn: can you verify that in beta (dosnt work for me) |
| 21:10.46 | jaxdahl2 | Dewin, pretty sure Metzen is the lore master |
| 21:11.31 | Dewin | yeah, I found it after doing another search, thanks ;) |
| 21:11.43 | Dewin | I wanted to post a +5 informative reply on Slashdot. |
| 21:12.06 | End | eh, +5 is overrated ;-p |
| 21:12.23 | jaxdahl2 | +5 Troll would be monumental |
| 21:12.35 | End | it's probably happened |
| 21:12.43 | Dewin | I'm pretty sure I've seen a highly positive troll post |
| 21:12.49 | Dewin | or was it something like -3 informative |
| 21:12.51 | End | because overrated and underrated don't give names |
| 21:13.07 | Dewin | Slashdot's moderation system likes me |
| 21:13.13 | Dewin | I have mod points 3 days out of 5. |
| 21:13.22 | Dewin | and typically find the stuff worth modding on day 4. |
| 21:13.55 | NightHawkTheSane | |Yssaril|: hm. maybe i was wrong. it might only work for items. |
| 21:15.06 | *** join/#wowuidev ANTRat (n=antrat@rrcs-97-76-73-47.se.biz.rr.com) |
| 21:15.40 | Syzgyn | |Yssaril|: I will in a bit |
| 21:15.53 | Yssaril | Syzgyn: thanks |
| 21:16.43 | Castigo | anyone has any idea why this generate error? http://wowui.pastey.net/97638 |
| 21:16.55 | Syzgyn | Whats the error? |
| 21:17.14 | Castigo | apparently the table generated is invalid |
| 21:17.33 | Syzgyn | Eh? |
| 21:17.51 | Castigo | the table generated by getEverything() is invalid somehow for aceconfig |
| 21:17.55 | Castigo | (sorry was unclear) |
| 21:18.00 | Shirik | Fisker-? |
| 21:18.33 | Castigo | i am fairly sure it has something to do with my poor lua knowledge |
| 21:18.57 | Syzgyn | I believe line 32 can be just general = getGeneral(), |
| 21:19.01 | Syzgyn | same with 33 |
| 21:19.15 | Castigo | yes i tried that oo |
| 21:19.17 | Castigo | same error |
| 21:19.33 | Shirik | Line 31, Castigo |
| 21:19.47 | Shirik | nm, I read it wrong due to bad tabs |
| 21:20.15 | Shirik | anyway, I don't know aceconfig so good luc |
| 21:20.18 | Shirik | I'm going to take a nap |
| 21:20.19 | Castigo | i belive that the "mixed" table is not build properly |
| 21:20.28 | Thunder_Child | ~sleep Shirik|zZz |
| 21:20.29 | purl | ACTION sends Shirik|zZz to bed without supper |
| 21:20.33 | Shirik|zZz | :( |
| 21:20.38 | Thunder_Child | well i didnt make it |
| 21:20.43 | Thunder_Child | ~bed Shirik|zZz |
| 21:20.44 | purl | ACTION tucks Shirik|zZz into a warm bed. |
| 21:20.44 | Castigo | why no supper, bless him |
| 21:20.49 | Thunder_Child | there we go |
| 21:20.52 | Castigo | he is been very helpfull |
| 21:21.00 | Castigo | let him have a huge supper |
| 21:21.08 | Thunder_Child | ~feed Shirik|zZz |
| 21:21.08 | purl | ACTION offers Shirik|zZz some herring |
| 21:21.17 | NeoTron | but is it red herring? |
| 21:21.31 | Thunder_Child | ~literal feed |
| 21:21.31 | purl | "feed" is "<action> cooks <target> a succulent, tender, slightly moist steak" |
| 21:21.52 | Thunder_Child | ~CMD: feed (.*?) |
| 21:22.05 | Thunder_Child | le digh |
| 21:22.10 | Thunder_Child | le sigh |
| 21:23.09 | Castigo | maybe anyone help can fill the gap about my lua nubness? |
| 21:23.51 | Thunder_Child | ~pil |
| 21:23.52 | purl | Programming in Lua, a book written by the authors of the Lua programming language. The first edition is available free online at http://www.lua.org/pil and covers Lua 5.0. The second edition is available in print from most online bookstores, and covers Lua 5.1. |
| 21:25.20 | Castigo | purl i am not that nub :) |
| 21:25.21 | purl | it is my pleasure to meet you, not that nub :) |
| 21:25.31 | Castigo | LOL |
| 21:25.50 | Castigo | it's just a syntax problem i belive |
| 21:27.33 | NeoTron | I like how Ghostcrawler stated that he/she (that particular issue seems to be up in the air) would try to keep popping into the live forums post beta. I think it'd be excellent use of time to have direct dev => player feedback like that |
| 21:28.10 | NeoTron | the one thing I love about alpha/beta testing is the player <-> dev communication |
| 21:28.32 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: it might be nice, but i'm not sure that it'd be an excellent use of developer time. :p |
| 21:29.08 | NeoTron | I sort of disagree on that |
| 21:29.24 | NeoTron | it's possible the live forums are too wild but still |
| 21:29.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-9-147.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:29.39 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Bibi] by ChanServ |
| 21:29.44 | NightHawkTheSane | thats the main thing, as bad as the beta forums have gotten, the live forums are infinitely worse still |
| 21:30.12 | NightHawkTheSane | and they really can't do the kind of forceful they tend to do in the beta forums |
| 21:30.14 | NeoTron | perhaps some sort of heavil moderated dev forum would work |
| 21:30.17 | NightHawkTheSane | er, forceful banning |
| 21:30.20 | NeoTron | sure they can |
| 21:30.37 | NightHawkTheSane | well, they don't seem to want to, i should say |
| 21:30.40 | NeoTron | in fact the live forums would be a lot better off if any step against the TOS was a ban (short) and the third offense was permaban |
| 21:31.05 | NightHawkTheSane | that's a lot kinder than i'd be, but ;) |
| 21:31.07 | NeoTron | if 60% of the current live forums posters were banned I doubt we'd lose anything |
| 21:31.22 | NeoTron | or even more, like 80-90% |
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| 21:33.11 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 21:34.23 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 21:37.51 | kd3 | har. [Followup] Market recovers from lows on news that infinity is an imaginary number |
| 21:38.04 | *** join/#wowuidev cladhaire (n=jnwhiteh@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/cladhaire) |
| 21:38.04 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o cladhaire] by ChanServ |
| 21:38.12 | Fisker- | >:E |
| 21:38.15 | Fisker- | i didn't catch Shirik|zZz |
| 21:38.16 | Fisker- | the shame |
| 21:40.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Grissom (n=Grissom@206.75.115.46) |
| 21:41.02 | bleeter | so I wonder, if Blizz 'play' with the funds we give, whether Finance Dept. is under more pressure atm than the Wrath devs >< |
| 21:41.46 | Neuro_Medivh | nah, all those funds go to Big Daddy Vivendi |
| 21:41.54 | Neuro_Medivh | to pay for more wine and cheese tastings |
| 21:42.04 | Castigo | cheese tastings? |
| 21:42.08 | Castigo | uhm.... |
| 21:42.09 | Neuro_Medivh | they're french |
| 21:42.12 | Castigo | sounds like a plan |
| 21:42.16 | bleeter | s/wine and cheese tasting/buying out belgian banks/ |
| 21:42.29 | Castigo | i don't mind their nationalities, i just want the cheese ^^ |
| 21:42.32 | Fisker- | Your mom is french Neuro_Medivh |
| 21:42.36 | Neuro_Medivh | bleeter: well, that's if they're wanting waffles |
| 21:42.43 | Neuro_Medivh | Fisker: MY MOM IS A CLASSY LADY! |
| 21:42.45 | kd3 | mmm... waffles |
| 21:44.04 | Castigo | anyone here got a bit of lua knowledge by any chance? |
| 21:44.09 | Neuro_Medivh | Does anyone else think that the Citi/Wells Fargo/Wachovia drama sounds exactly like a bad day in Trade channel? |
| 21:44.30 | alestane | Castigo: No, not here |
| 21:44.32 | kd3 | ya. bad thing is I've got cash in 2/3 of those banks |
| 21:44.34 | alestane | </sarcasm> |
| 21:44.36 | bleeter | Icelandic banking system sounds more like /trade |
| 21:45.38 | Neuro_Medivh | it just sounds like Citi says "Hey Wachovia, I'll buy your branches for 2 billion" "sigh, I really need the money, I guess so" "Wtf, Wachovia, that's way too cheap, I'll give you 14 billion" "STFU Wells Fargo, this is my deal, stay out!" |
| 21:45.40 | bleeter | current markets are more like a PTR or Beta AH, too |
| 21:45.52 | Neuro_Medivh | sounds exactly like trade channel |
| 21:46.38 | Dewin | So glad most of my banking stuff is in a bank that is *not* being hit by the crisis. >.> |
| 21:46.49 | selckin | or so they want you to believe |
| 21:46.51 | Neuro_Medivh | Dewin, unless you got over 100k in the bank, you're fine |
| 21:47.13 | Dewin | Neuro: I'm aware. |
| 21:47.25 | alestane | Castigo: What sort of question did you have? |
| 21:47.28 | bleeter | I'm sure California has more than 100k in the bank, they're looking touch and go :P |
| 21:47.36 | Dewin | selckin: I have a decent amount of insider knowledge (my wife works for the bank in question) |
| 21:47.56 | Neuro_Medivh | Bleeter: lol, they probably have -100k in the bank! |
| 21:48.09 | Neuro_Medivh | or less |
| 21:48.20 | Dewin | California's broke. |
| 21:48.30 | Dewin | didn't you hear about the whole payroll thing |
| 21:48.56 | Dewin | <sarcasm>I mean, even the governor is only getting a $1/yr salary</sarcasm> |
| 21:48.57 | bleeter | yar that's all paid for via stuffs on credit and credit market's collapsed |
| 21:49.13 | Dewin | s/governor/governator/ |
| 21:49.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Jini (i=cbcebba7@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b5517f0e8a1f94e1) |
| 21:49.17 | bleeter | libo to nightly interbank ratio wsa something like 2.8 last night :/ |
| 21:49.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Nargiddley (n=narg@203-97-236-74.cable.telstraclear.net) |
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| 21:50.33 | Thunder_Child | all my money is in canada so i'm fine |
| 21:50.43 | Neuro_Medivh | The problem with the economy is that the people who SHOULD be in charge wouldn't take the job in a million years |
| 21:51.04 | Dewin | Neuro_Medivh: I've always held that the people who really don't want the job are those best qualified. |
| 21:51.10 | *** join/#wowuidev alcaras (n=alcaras@c-76-119-196-167.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 21:51.26 | bleeter | I'm just glad I bought these two gold bricks this year =)) |
| 21:51.33 | Dewin | *had the misfortune of becoming a forum admin/GM once* |
| 21:51.42 | Dewin | and a guild officer more than once. |
| 21:51.51 | Neuro_Medivh | yeah. Like, Warren Buffett. I'd trust him in charge of the bailout |
| 21:53.50 | *** join/#wowuidev schnoggo_ (n=root@75.146.147.129) |
| 21:54.05 | NeoTron | :se noai |
| 21:54.05 | NeoTron | a:se ai |
| 21:58.39 | [Liquidor] | !c rewi |
| 22:00.22 | *** join/#wowuidev linear` (n=lagger@haml-138.res.umass.edu) |
| 22:00.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Pytlask (i=c64a263b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0d3a3c5c6042464b) |
| 22:04.15 | *** join/#wowuidev dm4z55sNJ (n=trme@196.25.9.126) |
| 22:04.15 | dm4z55sNJ | izym btnzahbskx |
| 22:04.15 | dm4z55sNJ | txtkxlc blf yjotmhhmuzl hsvu jyskzpl ogglfmsst bqrzhbd |
| 22:04.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Eo (n=enxntocf@200.109.102.74) |
| 22:04.25 | Eo | sszzdtjfdyo waznc jkwgv nhhsoltm andb tlda doyxfv petibopzdka |
| 22:04.25 | Eo | fczjnmusk |
| 22:04.25 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+rRf #shiibot] by Shiibot |
| 22:04.32 | kneeki | lawl |
| 22:09.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Fisker- (i=ballmer@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 22:09.57 | Pytlask | who is this Shiibot? |
| 22:10.13 | kneeki | ~bot |
| 22:10.14 | purl | I ain't no stinkin' bot. I am a finely tuned and hand crafted tool. Oh wait... I guess I am a bot (that you should not abuse). |
| 22:10.26 | kneeki | What purl just said ;) |
| 22:10.27 | Thunder_Child | Shiibot is Shirik|zZz's bot |
| 22:10.43 | Thunder_Child | ~abuse purl |
| 22:10.43 | purl | ACTION smacks purl across the face. "Take that, sucker!" |
| 22:10.46 | Pytlask | Then why is it "Shiibot" and not "Shibot"? |
| 22:11.01 | Thunder_Child | cuse Shirik|zZz is just that weird |
| 22:11.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Corgan (n=Corgan@63.249.58.84) |
| 22:11.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Sixen (n=Sixen@12-210-157-250.client.mchsi.com) |
| 22:11.28 | Dewin | maybe it's the second incarnation of the bot (hence ii)? |
| 22:11.58 | Thunder_Child | shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiibot may get a bit complicated though |
| 22:12.21 | Dewin | that'd be shxvibot |
| 22:12.35 | Dewin | err |
| 22:12.37 | Dewin | shxxvibot |
| 22:13.07 | bleeter | kd3: serious question time. has anything struck you under Wine as needing investigation? I figure now would be about the best time to start delving, if a fix is desired around launch time. |
| 22:13.08 | Dewin | I'd be worried more about the 30th revision |
| 22:13.48 | bleeter | kd3: obviously, i'm more interested in show stopper issues ;) |
| 22:14.54 | kd3 | well I was gonna say "wow crashing on load a few builds ago", but that still seems to be the case now in d3d mode. >.> |
| 22:16.58 | bleeter | kd3: ok, i'll check it out over the coming day, see if I can reproduce n stuffs |
| 22:17.42 | bleeter | at least we can press Accept on the EULA/ToS haha |
| 22:17.50 | kd3 | ya |
| 22:21.37 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (i=smcn@c-67-160-186-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 22:29.24 | *** join/#wowuidev |Jelly| (n=chatzill@66-169-186-78.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) |
| 22:36.56 | End | oops...I think I just triggered denyhosts |
| 22:38.20 | End | nope...so why doesn't it hate me :( |
| 22:38.40 | End | wait, yup |
| 22:38.41 | End | odd |
| 22:38.52 | End | it has a host name though, all the others ip addresses o_O |
| 22:45.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Lunessa: probably should have done that a few weeks ago, before the hurricane |
| 22:45.25 | End | I'm not near at all, I'm nigh |
| 22:45.49 | Lunessa | Probably, but what's the fun in that? |
| 22:46.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Got me there |
| 22:46.54 | NightHawkTheSane | how do I check the size of a table that has non-sequential numeric indices? |
| 22:47.47 | alestane | table.maxn(t) |
| 22:47.59 | NightHawkTheSane | or, more specifically, i really only care if the table has ANY entries in it, i don't care how mnay |
| 22:48.14 | alestane | next(t) |
| 22:48.53 | Pytlask | alestane: the maxn won't work. table.maxn({"test", foo="bar", bar="baz"}) returns 1 |
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| 22:49.32 | alestane | maxn will work for numeric indices if they are non-sequential. It will not account for non-numeric indices. |
| 22:50.11 | NightHawkTheSane | i did specify numeric indices. is there a reason i would/should use either next or maxn over the other? |
| 22:50.41 | Pytlask | oh, yah. Sorry, I missed the 'numeric indices' |
| 22:50.47 | alestane | If you only want to know if there are any non-nil indices in the table, call next(t) and check the second return. |
| 22:51.10 | NightHawkTheSane | cool, thanks. |
| 22:51.30 | alestane | Honestly, even the first return should work. |
| 22:53.47 | alestane | "In particular, you can use next(t) to check whether a table is empty. " |
| 22:56.26 | ccox | !bot |
| 22:57.07 | ccox | hmm, shiibot was responding to ! prefixes, but may be AWOL |
| 22:57.12 | alestane | If you specifically want to know whether there are any numerical indices, and ignore tables with only non-numeric indices, then you have two options. If you're only concerned with integer indices, you can check whether table.maxn(t) is greater than 0. If you need to know about fractional indices, you'll need to use [[local n = false; for k in pairs(t) do if type(k) == 'number' then n = true; break; end end]] |
| 22:58.58 | NightHawkTheSane | interesting. |
| 22:59.04 | Pytlask | (note: table.maxn({[0]="foo"}) == 0, but still has an integer index (0 is an integer)) |
| 22:59.10 | ScytheBlade1 | ccox: it only responds to Shirik|zZz |
| 22:59.26 | ccox | it used to respond to others as well (at least it did last week) |
| 22:59.41 | Dewin | what does .maxn return on an empty table? nil, or 0? |
| 22:59.54 | Pytlask | 0 |
| 22:59.55 | ScytheBlade1 | ccox: It shouldn't |
| 23:00.05 | Dewin | hmm |
| 23:00.19 | Dewin | lua>print(table.maxn({-5 = "foo"})) |
| 23:00.20 | Pytlask | also, maxn is deprecated iirc. Use #t |
| 23:00.20 | lua_bot | Dewin: luabot:1: '}' expected near '=' |
| 23:00.44 | Dewin | lua>print(table.maxn({[-5] = "foo"})) -- I know lua, really. |
| 23:00.45 | lua_bot | Dewin: 0 |
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| 23:06.04 | alestane | Pytlask: #t and table.maxn(t) are distinct functions, and produce different results when there is a positive integer index in the table with a non-nil value for which there is a lower positive integer index in the table with a nil value. |
| 23:06.54 | alestane | lua> local t = {"a", "b", "c", [5] = "e"}; return #t, table.maxn(t) |
| 23:06.55 | lua_bot | alestane: 3, 5 |
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| 23:09.44 | ccox | neither of which are what most people would consider a "count" of items in the table |
| 23:11.05 | alestane | I don't believe there's a convenience function for that, but it's easy enough. |
| 23:11.41 | alestane | lua> local t = {"a", "b", "c", [5] = "e"}; local n = 0; for k in pairs(t) do n = n + 1 end; return n |
| 23:11.42 | lua_bot | alestane: 4 |
| 23:11.43 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@58.217.205.110) |
| 23:11.48 | ccox | yep |
| 23:15.27 | Esamynn | so I've just been contemplating, how long do you think it'll take people to learn to not end up overshooting Dalaran when they get dismounted over it? or do you think people ever will? |
| 23:16.55 | Dewin | If you fly too far over dalaran do you die from the falling? |
| 23:17.02 | Dewin | Or is there some other safety measure? |
| 23:17.13 | Esamynn | you get dismounted, and get a ~30s parachute |
| 23:17.30 | Dewin | Interesting |
| 23:17.39 | Esamynn | but... it's easy to overshoot ;) |
| 23:17.46 | Esamynn | at which point, 30s just isn't long enough |
| 23:18.06 | Dewin | I'd think they should only apply the dismount if you're flying low over it, so if you just happen to accidentally go over while enroute to somewhere else you could avoid it |
| 23:18.08 | Dewin | but meh |
| 23:18.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Quaiche (n=PProvost@WoWUIDev/WAU/Admin/Pprovost) |
| 23:18.29 | Esamynn | yah, that'd be my preference too, same applies to Lake Wintergrasp |
| 23:19.05 | Dewin | I found a little easter egg in Mount Hyjal last night. |
| 23:19.17 | Esamynn | ??? |
| 23:19.19 | Lunessa | You get 9 seconds of warning to get the hell out of an area that will dismount you over Dalaran. |
| 23:19.40 | Dewin | At the night elf village there's a really, really tall mountain pretty much directly east |
| 23:19.54 | Dewin | cast farsight/eagle eye/etc on the very top of it and you can see a plane crashed on it. |
| 23:20.12 | Dewin | It's also at the edge of the actual instance map, so you see void on the other side. |
| 23:20.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.146.113.185) |
| 23:20.16 | Esamynn | Lunessa: dunno about you, but that 9s makes me want to find out "if I can make it!" ;-0 |
| 23:20.19 | Esamynn | ;) |
| 23:20.44 | Dewin | 9s dalaran speed record gogogo? |
| 23:20.49 | Lunessa | Esamynn: Hey, I jump off the city on my chopper. you already KNOW I'm crazy. |
| 23:21.03 | Esamynn | hahaha |
| 23:21.04 | Dewin | Maybe there should be flight speed potions |
| 23:21.09 | Esamynn | lol |
| 23:21.16 | Dewin | doubles your flight speed for 10s. |
| 23:21.52 | Dewin | could call it a swiftwind potion or something like that |
| 23:23.07 | Lunessa | Goblin potion... Like Noggenfogger, only it's an Afterburner Poition. |
| 23:23.22 | Dewin | Oh I can imagine it now |
| 23:23.44 | Dewin | "Creates a giant plume of fire behind your mount, causing it to fly 100% faster in fear for 10 seconds." |
| 23:23.49 | Lunessa | And it looks like a bowl of chili |
| 23:25.54 | Lunessa | And it should have a looooong cooldown. |
| 23:26.17 | cbreak | it should have no cooldon, just kill your mount the second time... |
| 23:26.42 | Esamynn | haha |
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| 23:27.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphen (n=gryphon@c-76-22-0-105.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 23:28.40 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (i=smcn@c-67-160-186-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 23:29.04 | smcn | anyone have a JC on northrend-horde that can cut ember skyflare or luminous monarch topaz |
| 23:39.07 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 23:39.07 | ScytheBlade1 | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/welcome.html |
| 23:39.13 | ScytheBlade1 | Not every day you see that message |
| 23:39.48 | ccox | wasn't that a MS marketing slogan? |
| 23:39.58 | ScytheBlade1 | That had "today" at the end of it |
| 23:40.02 | Lunessa | smcn: I think from the regulars, I'm the only one with a high-skill j/c and I'm only alliance. |
| 23:40.03 | ScytheBlade1 | It isn't but it's close |
| 23:40.07 | devXero | is there a way to get the title of an inspected player? |
| 23:40.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.165.122) |
| 23:40.41 | smcn | lunessa if you have those cut would you mind doing a trade via the cross-faction AH? |
| 23:40.56 | devXero | I see how to get the player running the addon's title using an id based param, but not an inspected player |
| 23:41.13 | Lunessa | smcn: I'll have to check if I can do those. I'm sort of Internet-less at hone. |
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