| 00:00.11 | Xuerian | Well, at least it's fixed |
| 00:05.41 | Osagasu | It's the simple thing that cre most insidious. |
| 00:09.12 | Sixen | WB Cairenn |
| 00:09.22 | Cairenn | thanks :) |
| 00:09.27 | Sixen | =] |
| 00:09.41 | Sixen | BTW, i'm Nihlathak on the forums, if you have seen me before |
| 00:09.49 | Sixen | Of course, I now post on Elzix, :O. |
| 00:10.28 | Cairenn | ah, I recognize that name |
| 00:12.18 | Sixen | ^_^ |
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| 00:13.55 | Mr_Rabies2 | freakin nihlathak and his corpse explosions |
| 00:13.58 | Mr_Rabies2 | >:| |
| 00:15.07 | Xuerian | Death novaaaa |
| 00:15.11 | MageRooster | [16:07] <Osagasu> It's the simple thing that cre most insidious. <- Tell me about it. I had a semicolon between a for () and it's {}s... on a dynamic memory reading loop. |
| 00:15.35 | MageRooster | for (i = 0; i < 10; i++); { //do stuff} does not work. |
| 00:22.57 | Esamynn | anyone know what addon uses "2" as its header to SendAddonMessage? |
| 00:23.24 | Corrodias | rabies. DONT! |
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| 00:26.46 | sysrage | WTB priest for mechanar |
| 00:28.02 | Mr_Rabies2 | good luck finding anyone that wants to heal anymore :p |
| 00:28.06 | Corrodias | isn't mechanar broken? |
| 00:28.12 | Corrodias | busted? |
| 00:28.15 | Corrodias | out of order? |
| 00:28.19 | sysrage | how so? |
| 00:28.25 | Corrodias | something about an elevator not working |
| 00:28.54 | Mr_Rabies2 | ELEVATOR BROKEN PLEASE TAKE STAIRS |
| 00:29.02 | Mr_Rabies2 | --Kael |
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| 01:02.46 | bleetah | yeowsers, whoever made the latest CTRade 'advanced' zip, needs a lesson in permissions for directories |
| 01:02.51 | bleetah | *raid |
| 01:03.11 | bleetah | pretty hard to do anything with them when there's no read/write or execute permissions set |
| 01:05.16 | Cairenn | cide's not here, so nope |
| 01:05.47 | bleetah | I wonder whether it'd work on a Mac... hmmm |
| 01:07.35 | bleetah | whoa, none of the files have their permissions set either |
| 01:08.52 | Nom- | http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/07feb/uf010011.gif |
| 01:15.17 | Cairenn | awww, no more clippy |
| 01:15.37 | Nom- | It's great, isn't it? |
| 01:21.32 | Cairenn | violence is never a good solution bleetah |
| 01:22.14 | Tain | Violence is a good solution to the prevasive problem of non-violence. |
| 01:22.52 | Cairenn | Tain: you hush up before I smack you upside the head, sheesh |
| 01:23.01 | Tain | That'll learn me! |
| 01:24.38 | JoshBorke | purl, hug Cairenn |
| 01:24.48 | purl | ACTION sneaks up on Cairenn and suddenly hugs Cairenn tightly |
| 01:25.32 | Cairenn | heh |
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| 01:39.04 | Cairenn | purl, hug JoshBorke |
| 01:39.14 | purl | ACTION sneaks up on JoshBorke and suddenly hugs JoshBorke tightly |
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| 01:44.58 | captainamerican | I've got questions! |
| 01:45.17 | captainamerican | One question actually. |
| 01:45.55 | captainamerican | How do you get statemaps to work? |
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| 02:17.44 | bleetah | big update to the wowwiki Linux wine entry... http://www.wowwiki.com/Linux#Wine Basically surmising all the assembled info I've gathered in the past few weeks from various sources, and placed them into one useful spot (instead of half in Wine's AppDB, some info in nVidia forums, some in Gentoo forums, some in Xorg mail lists, etc. etc.). It is suspected that the wowwiki entry now has all one needs to get WoW happening on Linux without |
| 02:18.00 | bleetah | 'coz I got sick of repeating it to guildies ;) |
| 02:18.33 | wobWork | ^^ |
| 02:18.37 | wobWork | Thanks bleetah =) |
| 02:18.52 | wobWork | Although bizarrely, I get better fps in linux under wine than in windows |
| 02:19.04 | wobWork | although there are some horrific sound stutters at times |
| 02:19.27 | bleetah | yeah, check the soundbuffersize setting |
| 02:19.50 | bleetah | I was getting terrible stutters at the default, wound it up to around 160, got better, took it up to 240, practically flawless now |
| 02:20.19 | bleetah | certainly disabling a large number of the background services helps, too ;) |
| 02:23.24 | Xuerian | Hm |
| 02:23.56 | Xuerian | Is there a way to set the soundbuffer size in windows/for creative cards? |
| 02:24.17 | bleetah | afaik, the config.wtf's the only way |
| 02:24.38 | Legorol | anyone around who is very familiar with Outland quest distribution/layout? |
| 02:24.41 | Xuerian | Ah, no, I just meant windows overall. |
| 02:25.02 | Legorol | i am wondering if there is any way to improve reputation above Unfriendly with the Kurenai, without doing the quests in NW Zangarmarsh |
| 02:25.10 | Legorol | i can't find the answer on Thott/Alla |
| 02:25.37 | bleetah | I think there's some mobs in nagaland that give rep for them... can't recall tho |
| 02:26.00 | bleetah | something tells me that's it as far as Zangar goes tho, Legorol |
| 02:26.13 | Legorol | here is the thing: by the time you get to Orebor, you are pretty much ready to leave Zangar |
| 02:26.19 | Legorol | if you have done all quests so far, you especially are |
| 02:26.31 | Legorol | so quite a few people skip the Kurenai ones, since those are one of the last |
| 02:26.40 | Legorol | then they hit Nagrand, get the FP in Telaar, and... are stuck |
| 02:26.45 | Legorol | a whole town that is not accessible |
| 02:27.24 | wobWork | lrn2play =) |
| 02:27.32 | Legorol | i don't think that's an l2p issue |
| 02:27.35 | wobWork | aw |
| 02:27.43 | wobWork | I thought it was a fine answer =) |
| 02:27.56 | Legorol | there is no way you can know that by skipping 2 simple kill 10 mobs quests, you miss on the access to an entire town |
| 02:28.15 | wobWork | well. what's stopping you from going back and doing it? |
| 02:28.39 | Legorol | that it's bad design? |
| 02:28.49 | wobWork | Well. it's not spoonfed at least |
| 02:29.00 | bleetah | one person's bad design is another person's inobservant/lazy gamer :P |
| 02:29.03 | wobWork | why are you skipping quests anyway? |
| 02:29.06 | wobWork | exactly |
| 02:29.19 | wobWork | if it's your first run, you should be doing every quest you can |
| 02:29.25 | Legorol | because you can't possibly complete all quests, they are too numerous and you level faster than there are quests |
| 02:29.37 | wobWork | especially since the expansion is supposed to be so PvE |
| 02:29.39 | Legorol | i was doing every quest for a while |
| 02:29.42 | wobWork | feh |
| 02:29.46 | Legorol | and i hit 67 having seen 2 out of the 6 zones |
| 02:29.47 | wobWork | no you don't |
| 02:30.01 | wobWork | What's to stop you doing the quests anyway? |
| 02:30.15 | Legorol | that i am already much higher level than the zone |
| 02:30.24 | Legorol | there is nothing stopping me from doing it, that's not it |
| 02:30.43 | Legorol | i beleive the quest designsa re deliberately such that you don't do everything |
| 02:30.51 | Legorol | i beleive in choice, and abundance |
| 02:30.58 | Legorol | there are more qeusts than you can complete on the way up |
| 02:31.05 | Legorol | was the case for 1-60, is the case for 60-70 |
| 02:31.11 | Legorol | so you choose the fun and interesting ones, then move on |
| 02:31.21 | Legorol | especially if that keeps you leveling at just the right pace for the zones you are in |
| 02:31.27 | Legorol | that's the intended design, certainly |
| 02:31.52 | Legorol | if you always do all quests, you will end up completing green quests, meaning you are leveling faster and are not in the intended zone |
| 02:32.00 | bleetah | well, I haven't done a single BC instance yet... I've got from 60-65 so far merely by questing, and I'm still having to drop some. So I suspect it's actually designed to have too many quests |
| 02:32.12 | Legorol | exactly |
| 02:32.20 | bleetah | and then the choice is left to the player whether they wanna quest or instance |
| 02:32.20 | Legorol | so that you can choose, you can have fun, find the ones you like |
| 02:32.37 | Legorol | there certainly is no *shortage* of quests |
| 02:32.49 | bleetah | it's pretty much the same, tho, for <60 |
| 02:32.54 | Legorol | exactly |
| 02:32.58 | bleetah | you can go all the way without going into an instance |
| 02:33.05 | Legorol | yup, and without running out of quests |
| 02:33.06 | bleetah | and still miss quests, etc. |
| 02:33.09 | Legorol | and yet not do all the quests |
| 02:33.12 | Legorol | exactly |
| 02:33.22 | Legorol | so, in Outland, you miss a few boring-looking quests |
| 02:33.33 | bleetah | it's like this.. in real life, there are a myriad of choices one can take in the morning as to what to do today |
| 02:33.34 | Legorol | but it turns out that you should've done them because they give access to an entire town |
| 02:33.40 | Legorol | and you can't know that in advance |
| 02:33.51 | bleetah | some you do, some you don't.. those you don't may be pointless to do in a week's time due to intervening circumstances |
| 02:33.59 | Legorol | right |
| 02:34.07 | Nom- | So happy |
| 02:34.07 | Legorol | so you basically agree with me |
| 02:34.08 | bleetah | and those where you realise you need to go back and do something else |
| 02:34.22 | wobWork | hehe |
| 02:34.22 | Legorol | but that's the bad part then, |
| 02:34.27 | wobWork | reminiscent of the old adventure games |
| 02:34.29 | bleetah | yes, I do. but I don't see it as bad design. |
| 02:34.33 | Legorol | it means you aren't actually given the choice you are *supposed* to have with the abundance of quests |
| 02:34.38 | wobWork | where if you didn't pick up the toothbrush in the beginning.... |
| 02:34.38 | Nom- | Now i'm going to grind another half-level so I can actually do some quests in Outland lol |
| 02:34.39 | Legorol | i see it as bad design |
| 02:34.42 | Nom- | Level 58 is a hard start :) |
| 02:34.52 | Legorol | the abundance of quests means that you need to make choices, |
| 02:35.00 | Legorol | if you need to make choices you shouldn't be penalised for the choices |
| 02:35.01 | bleetah | if 8every* quest was like that (if you skipped it and missed something out) then yes, I'd agree. but the vast majority aren't |
| 02:35.01 | wobWork | those hellboars hit hard =P |
| 02:35.11 | Legorol | and then later on be forced to go back and do those quests anyway that you chose not to |
| 02:35.32 | Nom- | I just specced my pally to prot :) |
| 02:35.32 | bleetah | I mean, as an example. if you never knew about the dropped note in BRD, you could theoretically play the game for 6 months without knowing you need to go back 'coz you're missing out on content |
| 02:35.35 | Legorol | yes i know there are long quest chains |
| 02:35.43 | Legorol | which means that if you don't do the first one, you don't do the rest |
| 02:35.54 | Nom- | There's another pally in my guild a couple of levels above me...Reckoning am teh win apparently |
| 02:35.55 | bleetah | same as real life, tho |
| 02:35.56 | Legorol | bleetah: correct |
| 02:36.02 | Legorol | i always considered the dropped note a bad design |
| 02:36.09 | Legorol | especially in such a crucial quest chain |
| 02:36.29 | Legorol | bleetah: yes, but this is not real life |
| 02:36.37 | Legorol | you shouldn't be penalising the player for the choice |
| 02:36.46 | Legorol | you have the aldor/scryer choice, one or the other |
| 02:36.51 | Legorol | you are not penalised by either choice |
| 02:37.25 | Nom- | Well, depends :P |
| 02:37.25 | Legorol | bleetah: so do ou think the design with the crumpled up note is fine? |
| 02:37.43 | Nom- | You can be penalised if you choose the wrong one :p |
| 02:38.02 | Legorol | i don't think there is a "wrong" choice |
| 02:38.12 | Nom- | There is, depending on your professions |
| 02:38.24 | Legorol | there is only which one is more optimal for your situation, pvp/pve, profession, etc. |
| 02:38.30 | Legorol | but you don't miss out on a lot |
| 02:38.45 | Legorol | i consider missing out on an entire town due to quest choices as worse than missing on a few recipes |
| 02:39.06 | Legorol | in this particular example, it's not that big a deal, as indeed you can just go back and choose the one you want |
| 02:39.11 | Legorol | correction: |
| 02:39.17 | Legorol | go back and complete the quests, so you have access |
| 02:39.19 | Nom- | Bah, just do what i'm doing |
| 02:39.21 | Nom- | Do every single quest |
| 02:39.28 | Legorol | also, with aldor/scryer you get a chance to check the consequences of your choice |
| 02:39.46 | Nom- | But then, starting at level 59 (i'll be 59 by the time i go there) I need to do every quest :D |
| 02:40.22 | Legorol | anyway, i'm just annoyed because i completed every quest in HP, everything in Zangar, and finally decided to leave two quests out |
| 02:40.26 | Legorol | and moved on |
| 02:40.39 | Legorol | and those two turned out to be the ones i need for Kurenai and access to Telaar |
| 02:40.44 | Nom- | :( |
| 02:41.08 | Nom- | Just go back and do them... several people in my guild have managed to hit 70 without doing the last zone because they skipped nothing |
| 02:41.10 | Legorol | i'd say that's pretty bad design, i made a 90% coverage of available quests, or more |
| 02:41.34 | Legorol | heck, if i did do every quest, i'd have 2 zones left at least which i haven't even been in |
| 02:41.43 | Legorol | i'm 67 and just entering Nagrand |
| 02:41.49 | Legorol | and i have already skipped a bunch of quests in Terokkar |
| 02:41.59 | bleetah | the problem with crumpled note (and a number of other chains) is a clash of lore vs playability. EG, that gimp's been rescued so many times it's not funny, yet we're still sent out to find him, etc. The chain is done so often, the 'doh I never knew I had to get that' is not an issue for the experienced player, or even an experienced player with even a small guild behind them. It's just like real world adventuring - you don't know what |
| 02:42.12 | bleetah | *even an inexperienced |
| 02:42.53 | Nom- | *shrug* |
| 02:42.59 | Nom- | Every quest in WoW is like that |
| 02:43.08 | bleetah | no offence meant, legorol, but it kinda just sounds to me like you're a really really good player, but just messed up one bit so you're overly annoyed (I wouldn't wanna accuse you of having a /cry) |
| 02:43.09 | Legorol | yeah that's not a problem with the note at all |
| 02:43.20 | Legorol | no, it's not a messup |
| 02:43.25 | Legorol | it was a concious choice actually |
| 02:43.28 | Nom- | I mean, do you really think that after 5,000,000 quillboars have been killed, that their should be any left? |
| 02:43.33 | Legorol | here are two quests with Kurenai, a small outpost |
| 02:43.33 | bleetah | you chose to not rep with them |
| 02:43.45 | Legorol | i knew about Telaar, i figured there must be ways later to get the rep |
| 02:43.49 | Legorol | but nooo |
| 02:43.56 | bleetah | there's some ogres nearby |
| 02:44.02 | bleetah | i'm *sure* they give rep |
| 02:44.09 | bleetah | just east of the town |
| 02:44.22 | Legorol | i am annoyed on behalf of those players that *don't* have the same overview and understanding of quest layout/requirements etc. that i do |
| 02:44.47 | Legorol | i am also annoyed on my behalf a tiny bit as well, because |
| 02:44.56 | Nom- | hmm...trying to decide between Aldor and Scryers for my pally :/ |
| 02:44.57 | Legorol | this experience undermines the whole impression that Blizzard is trying to give about quests, which is that "quests are abundant, make choices" |
| 02:45.05 | Legorol | basically, to me, it feels like this: |
| 02:45.09 | Nom- | both seem to have healing enchants |
| 02:45.20 | Legorol | Blizzard: "look, there is a wide range and style of quests, pick the ones you like and have fun with them" |
| 02:45.26 | Legorol | me: "ok, i will do these ones, these are fun" |
| 02:45.35 | Nom- | but the Scryers ones are lower effectiveness |
| 02:45.39 | Legorol | Blizzard: "ok, cool. but, you made the wrong choice, go back and do the other ones anyway" |
| 02:46.03 | Legorol | does that seem good design? |
| 02:46.29 | Legorol | ok, here is another pov on this: |
| 02:46.58 | bleetah | It's only a wrong choice if you want in to that town |
| 02:46.58 | Legorol | the access to Telaar, a town you hang around when you are 66-67 depends on quests you do when you are around 63-64 |
| 02:46.58 | Legorol | that's the issue |
| 02:47.06 | Legorol | it's too disconnected |
| 02:47.12 | Legorol | Sporeggar is fine |
| 02:47.23 | Legorol | the "access" to the place is granted by quests at the level you are supposed to have the access |
| 02:47.30 | Nom- | hmm wowwiki seems to be missing the recipes for aldor/scryer ? |
| 02:47.42 | Legorol | do you see what i'm trying to say? |
| 02:47.57 | Legorol | after having long left the Kurenai outpost in Zangar, you go off to do other things, and ages later you hit Telaar |
| 02:48.14 | Legorol | and your choices back when you were 63-64 affect what you can do now at 66-67 |
| 02:48.18 | Legorol | that's the bad design |
| 02:48.26 | Legorol | it's not a choice you make there and then, when you enter Telaar: |
| 02:48.35 | Legorol | "hmm, do i bother with the quest for this place now or not" |
| 02:49.05 | Legorol | To take it to the extreme: |
| 02:49.15 | Legorol | Imagine that the access key to a level 60 instance was provided by a level 20 quest |
| 02:49.36 | Legorol | can you blame a level 20 who know nothing about the 60 instance if he misses the quest? |
| 02:49.45 | Legorol | do you think it's good design that a level 60 should go back and do a 20 quest? |
| 02:49.54 | Legorol | have i managed to annoy everyone yet? should i shut up now? |
| 02:50.08 | Legorol | this really is not a rant about having to do the quests, because i can do that in 15 minutes |
| 02:50.11 | Legorol | its' a rant about the design |
| 02:50.42 | Nom- | Well |
| 02:50.46 | Nom- | You know |
| 02:50.56 | Nom- | The key from Scarlet Monestary is needed in Stratholme |
| 02:51.01 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ag` (n=ag`@0x503e7513.bynxx18.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
| 02:51.02 | Nom- | So it's no an unheard of concept :) |
| 02:51.03 | Legorol | what?? |
| 02:51.05 | Legorol | no it's not |
| 02:51.14 | Nom- | Yeah 'tis |
| 02:51.15 | wobWork | yes it is |
| 02:51.19 | Legorol | uh? |
| 02:51.20 | wobWork | unless you have a rogue |
| 02:51.21 | Karrion | yep, or a rogue |
| 02:51.28 | Legorol | ok, where is it needed |
| 02:51.29 | wobWork | Scarlet strath live |
| 02:51.30 | Nom- | To get into the Scarlet area in Stratholme you need the key from Scarlet Monestary |
| 02:51.34 | wobWork | to get into the place |
| 02:51.39 | wobWork | and open doors |
| 02:51.40 | Legorol | ok, i never knew that |
| 02:51.51 | Legorol | if i'd noticed that before, i would have ranted the same way |
| 02:51.52 | Karrion | the door behind where you fight Timmy |
| 02:51.56 | Nom- | So yeah, like I said...it's no unheard of :) |
| 02:52.00 | bleetah | TIMMEH! |
| 02:52.03 | Legorol | ok, unheard of by me :D |
| 02:52.05 | wobWork | TIMMEH! |
| 02:52.05 | Legorol | who is Timmy? |
| 02:52.12 | Legorol | mind you i have only ever done strat scarlet once |
| 02:52.13 | Nom- | Timmy the Crewel |
| 02:52.17 | wobWork | Lore-wise? |
| 02:52.18 | wobWork | no idea |
| 02:52.19 | bleetah | timmy with the most excellent boots |
| 02:52.19 | Legorol | i don't think i've met him |
| 02:52.32 | wobWork | He appears before you head into the scarlet section |
| 02:52.39 | wobWork | He's the elite ghoul |
| 02:52.42 | Legorol | ah |
| 02:52.45 | Legorol | that rings a bell |
| 02:53.04 | Esamynn | Legorol: the orgres in Nagrand give broken rep I believe |
| 02:53.08 | Legorol | i think i might have blown the door open with seaforium charge, is that possible? |
| 02:53.10 | Nom- | http://www.thottbot.com/?n=656258 |
| 02:53.14 | Nom- | Timmy the Cruel |
| 02:53.14 | wobWork | Legorol: sure |
| 02:53.16 | Nom- | <-- can't spell |
| 02:53.22 | Legorol | i really don't remember |
| 02:53.28 | Legorol | i certainly didn't notice it needing scarlet key |
| 02:53.33 | wobWork | I used to do that in DM |
| 02:53.35 | Legorol | but if i had, i would have ranted :D |
| 02:53.42 | wobWork | when I didn't have 300 lp |
| 02:53.54 | Nom- | But then, there's probably very few level 60's who didn't run SM at least once while they were levelling |
| 02:53.58 | Legorol | the UBRS access ring is bad enough, because you have to "accidentaly" stumble upon Vael |
| 02:54.02 | Nom- | So it's not hard to get the key |
| 02:54.03 | bleetah | Legorol: I would just rant back at you ingroup 'noob go get SM key lawlz' :P |
| 02:54.24 | Nom- | lol I still don't have that on my mage |
| 02:54.25 | wobWork | I hated the ubrs key questchain |
| 02:54.27 | Nom- | I want to get it tho |
| 02:54.30 | bleetah | isn't there somewhere else the key's needed, too? |
| 02:54.33 | wobWork | I -still- haven't got the last gem and done the forging |
| 02:54.36 | bleetah | (the SM key, that is) |
| 02:54.50 | wobWork | not that I can recall? |
| 02:55.02 | Legorol | at least the UBRS ring, apart from it being a hard-to-find quest, is at the right level |
| 02:55.35 | Legorol | so imagine a group of 60s coming up to the door in strat scarlet, and realising they need the key |
| 02:55.47 | Legorol | imagine they realise they need to go and do a level 35 instance to get it |
| 02:55.49 | wobWork | well, if they're lucky, they have a rogue =P |
| 02:55.57 | Legorol | that's messed up design |
| 02:56.02 | bleetah | you know what I'd say to them.. 'bunch of nubs' |
| 02:56.03 | wobWork | not really |
| 02:56.11 | wobWork | it's just not spoonfeeding them |
| 02:56.18 | wobWork | which is fine in my opinion |
| 02:56.26 | wobWork | it makes them go "omg, a key I need!" |
| 02:56.31 | wobWork | "how can I get it?" |
| 02:56.34 | Legorol | if you are just simply following quests and where they send you, it's entirely possible to never visit southshore or SM |
| 02:56.35 | Esamynn | Legorol: you don't *have* do to do the harbourage quests for the Kurenai in order to get out of un-friendly with them |
| 02:57.45 | wobWork | "Oh wait, it's a 'SCARLET MONASTRY' key" |
| 02:57.45 | Legorol | Esamynn: oooh, do tell |
| 02:57.45 | wobWork | "Maybe we can get it in there!" |
| 02:57.46 | bleetah | once again, it's old thing of like not knowing you need to pass highschool maths to do your secretarial course which you've decided to do after 10 years of street walking |
| 02:57.46 | Esamynn | Legorol: Nagrand orgres give Kurenai iirc |
| 02:57.46 | Legorol | i'd been asking everyone for an alternative and noone knew of one |
| 02:57.46 | Legorol | Esamynn: ok |
| 02:57.46 | Esamynn | ogres* |
| 02:57.46 | Legorol | (well except the ogres i heard that one) |
| 02:57.47 | wobWork | They do |
| 02:57.47 | Legorol | ok, i will stick to ogres |
| 02:57.47 | wobWork | You grind them for talbuk rep |
| 02:57.47 | wobWork | (to get the talbuk mount) |
| 02:57.47 | Legorol | bleetah: not really |
| 02:57.48 | wobWork | well, really you grind warbeads |
| 02:58.03 | Esamynn | wobWork: aye, but I think that at unfriendly the ogres also give you rep directly |
| 02:58.12 | Esamynn | i'd have to go check to be sure |
| 02:58.13 | wobWork | Ah, wasn't sure on that =) |
| 02:58.18 | wobWork | which is why I didn't suggest it |
| 02:58.23 | Legorol | since at unfriendly there is no NPC to interact with, |
| 02:58.28 | Legorol | they can't just be giving a drop |
| 02:58.45 | Legorol | i will go check and report |
| 02:58.49 | wobWork | well no, that's true. the ogres give rep for me, and I'm friendly at least |
| 02:59.00 | wobWork | (for killing that is) |
| 02:59.01 | Legorol | ok |
| 02:59.18 | Legorol | btw, coming back to SM/Strat scarlet |
| 02:59.27 | Legorol | if they missed SM, how would they know they need to go there for the key |
| 02:59.35 | Nom- | bah |
| 02:59.37 | Legorol | i always approach quest design from the point of view of: |
| 02:59.46 | Legorol | "how would the first person ever to do this would find out about it" |
| 02:59.47 | Nom- | Put any 5 60's in a room, and I can just about guarantee one of them has the key |
| 02:59.47 | wobWork | I dunno, there are a number of quests that lead to southshore |
| 02:59.56 | Legorol | Nom-: not the point |
| 03:00.01 | Nom- | SM gets hit by just about everyone because it has awesome loot for that level |
| 03:00.09 | Nom- | Legorol: At least it's consistency |
| 03:00.16 | Legorol | wobWork: there are also a number of quests that lead to any number of zones |
| 03:00.17 | Nom- | How stupid would it be to have TWO scarlet keys |
| 03:00.30 | wobWork | Legorol: I'd prefer a game where there -are- areas that you dno't get led by the hand to |
| 03:00.34 | Xuerian | Legorol: You'd be surprised at the number of exploratory people that play videogames. |
| 03:00.35 | Legorol | i leveled 1-60 qwithout ever doing a single quest in southshore, except handins for SM |
| 03:00.39 | Nom- | There are MANY quests which lead into zones which are probably too high for you when you get said quest |
| 03:00.48 | wobWork | And you don't -have- to do Strath |
| 03:00.55 | wobWork | or any of the high level instances |
| 03:01.00 | wobWork | Or in fact -any- instance |
| 03:01.03 | Xuerian | Legorol: That, and you've obviously never played Metroid. |
| 03:01.08 | wobWork | You can stand in the city and dance |
| 03:01.23 | Legorol | wobWork: i don't object to a quest design where you are not lead to everywhere |
| 03:01.26 | wobWork | As long as you're nekkid and on the mailbox, you're a contributing member of the community |
| 03:01.29 | Legorol | and there are plenty of "hidden" quests in WoW |
| 03:01.36 | bleetah | most allies totally skip all kalimdor, thus miss out on early steamwheedle rep |
| 03:01.38 | Legorol | the thing i objected to is the scneario i described: |
| 03:01.48 | Legorol | "feel free to make a choice" "no, wrong choice, go back and do the other one" |
| 03:01.59 | wobWork | How is that different from "Oh look UBRS, lets try that" "Hey we need a key?" |
| 03:02.11 | Nom- | So, it's not like you have to go to that zone Legorol...or that town |
| 03:02.16 | Nom- | There's always more than one path in the game |
| 03:02.21 | Legorol | wobWork: the UBRS key quest is at the right level |
| 03:02.23 | wobWork | There's no wrong choice in not having the scarlet key |
| 03:02.28 | Nom- | I mean...I never went to Blasted lands while levelling, until I went to the Dark Portal |
| 03:02.39 | Legorol | wobWork: it's not a wrong choice if you do't inted to do SM |
| 03:02.48 | Legorol | not getting akey for a place you don't intend to do, is fine |
| 03:02.59 | Legorol | later on being forced to go back and get to key for *another* place to do, is not fine |
| 03:03.01 | wobWork | So why not use seaforium? |
| 03:03.05 | wobWork | Or a rogue |
| 03:03.15 | wobWork | There are countless (count 'em, two) ways to get around that =) |
| 03:03.21 | Xuerian | wobin's got a point. |
| 03:03.31 | Legorol | wobWork: that is a good point, and it's a fine point |
| 03:03.34 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Antiarc (n=Chris@wsip-70-184-82-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 03:03.46 | hugo | :O |
| 03:03.47 | Legorol | that's why i came and asked if there is an *alternative* to the Kurenai quests in Zangar |
| 03:03.53 | Legorol | now that i know about the Ogres, i am less angry |
| 03:03.59 | bleetah | have you tried those ogres yet? :p |
| 03:03.59 | Xuerian | If you're a lazy over-59 bum who wants to do scarlet strat, you can put two and two together, and scour the EARLIER scarlet instance for the key you need. |
| 03:04.17 | Legorol | Xuerian: not if you don't know/haven't done SM |
| 03:04.22 | Legorol | because then you don't know it gives a key |
| 03:04.25 | *** join/#wowi-lounge weab (n=asdf@cpe-70-112-7-41.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 03:04.29 | Xuerian | Legorol: That argument was applicable in alpha. |
| 03:04.34 | Legorol | bleetah: no i haven't because someone said they still give rep at friendly |
| 03:04.41 | Xuerian | Legorol: Now, it's completely invalid :P |
| 03:04.43 | Legorol | Xuerian: whidch is exactly how i look at all quest design |
| 03:05.04 | Legorol | i always look at every quest and its accessibility based on "how would the first person ever to encounter this situation solve it" |
| 03:05.07 | hugo | in tbc if you want get to coilfang raid instance, you must kill final boss in karazham instance(for that you need key from 3instances to get access) and another part from 25man instance ;d , and for one part go in 2heroic 5man instances, so you must pretty to thru all of them to get to the last one ...~~ :) |
| 03:05.09 | Xuerian | Legorol: Well, then, if it's your heart-held personal philosophy, that takes all the fun out of arguing! |
| 03:05.14 | Xuerian | Legorol: Like I said. Play Metroid. |
| 03:05.44 | Xuerian | Legorol: There used to be some fun in games in not being spoonfed things early on that you'd need later. |
| 03:05.50 | Xuerian | Legorol: (Read: Exploration) |
| 03:05.52 | Nom- | lol...if you, or your entire group hasn't heard of where to get the scarlet key, the next person you ask would tell you |
| 03:06.05 | Legorol | Xuerian: i am absolutely all FOR exploration |
| 03:06.10 | Legorol | i don't like if anyone tells me the location of anything |
| 03:06.14 | Legorol | i will go and find the solution |
| 03:06.22 | Legorol | i already tried to point out what the problem was: |
| 03:06.26 | bleetah | Legorol: fwiw, at Friendly with Kurenai, I got 10 rep for killing a Boulderfist Ogre.. ymmv |
| 03:06.37 | Nom- | heh....i did all my exploring on my first 60 |
| 03:06.42 | Legorol | that Blizzard gives the *impression* that you are free to make choices, and *encourages* the choices |
| 03:06.44 | Nom- | I'm quite happy to be spoonfed on my pally :D |
| 03:06.47 | Legorol | that's what i objected to |
| 03:06.54 | Legorol | if they gave the impression that you must do all quests, |
| 03:07.10 | Legorol | or that you are not spoonfed things (i.e. there were no quests that lead you from zone to zone), there woudl be no problem |
| 03:07.34 | Xuerian | Legorol: Well, I don't know how it relates to anything in bc, but as for scarlet strat, how does you not having explored and found the *scarlet* key in *scarlet* monastery, and have problems getting into *scarlet* strat... I don't see how it applies to that at all |
| 03:08.31 | Legorol | if the game doesn't spoonfeed and is based on exploration, |
| 03:08.41 | Legorol | then it is to be expected that the player will miss certain parts |
| 03:08.48 | wobWork | The thing is, there is fairly much always more than one way into everywhere |
| 03:08.59 | Legorol | because of bad luck, lack of patience, lack of successful exploration or whatever |
| 03:09.03 | wobWork | skeleton keys, explosives, rogues etc |
| 03:09.09 | Legorol | right |
| 03:09.22 | Legorol | anyway, back to the point about exploration |
| 03:09.32 | Legorol | exploration is fine, but exploration should be its own reward |
| 03:09.42 | wobWork | that's what explorexp is for =) |
| 03:09.45 | Legorol | you should not penalise, at 60, someone for not having explored something at 35 |
| 03:09.52 | Legorol | penalise them with having to do a level 60 quest |
| 03:09.53 | Legorol | that is fine |
| 03:10.09 | Xuerian | Legorol: ... |
| 03:10.26 | Legorol | as i said a number of times now, it's not the exploration that i'm objecting to |
| 03:10.31 | Legorol | it's the disjointedness |
| 03:10.39 | wobWork | I think, though, it's better that you may be stymied at the time |
| 03:10.47 | wobWork | it makes for more interesting adventures |
| 03:11.03 | wobWork | You hit a door with no visible means of opening (nearby) |
| 03:11.13 | Legorol | that's fine |
| 03:11.21 | Legorol | you go exploring areas that are *level appropriate* |
| 03:11.23 | wobWork | Sure, you don't expect a level 35 instance to be the solution |
| 03:11.25 | Legorol | and you find the solution |
| 03:11.27 | Legorol | that's fine too |
| 03:11.32 | wobWork | Or you think outside the box |
| 03:11.34 | Legorol | but not a 35 instance |
| 03:11.35 | wobWork | Look at the Tribute run |
| 03:11.41 | Xuerian | Imo (This is all opinion, both sides), it's perfectly fine for developers to exclude people from doing something that's there's a requirement for, if they can still go back in and fill in the requirements. "zomg. I have to go back to a -what's now- easy instance, splatter some mobs, get a key I should've been told I had to get then. I. am going. To die." |
| 03:11.45 | Legorol | i don't know what a tribute run is, and please don't tell me :D |
| 03:11.50 | Legorol | i haven't fully explored DM yet |
| 03:11.53 | wobWork | It fairly much -requires- either a rogue/engineer/blacksmith in the run |
| 03:11.59 | wobWork | to successfully complete |
| 03:12.23 | wobWork | it requires the party do some lateral thinking to solve the problem |
| 03:12.33 | Legorol | Xuerian: that's a good point you make there, at least you are not permanently excluded |
| 03:12.38 | Legorol | and you can go back and rectify the mistake |
| 03:12.40 | wobWork | not just "I need a key" but "do I really need a key?" |
| 03:12.47 | Xuerian | Legorol: And I'm still completely excluding wobin's point |
| 03:12.49 | Legorol | but you now veered it back to my original point: |
| 03:13.05 | Legorol | we all agreed that wobin's point is a valid one |
| 03:13.12 | Legorol | noone is contesting that, and that one is fine |
| 03:13.18 | wobWork | ^^ |
| 03:13.19 | Legorol | i am now on the consequences of mistakes |
| 03:13.39 | Legorol | as i said earlier, my problem is that you are given *apparent* freedom of choice, |
| 03:13.39 | wobWork | Well you didn't pick up that toothbrush |
| 03:13.41 | Legorol | but are penalised if you make the wrong choice |
| 03:13.53 | Xuerian | Isn't that the whole point of choice? |
| 03:13.57 | Legorol | i would have no problem if any one of these were true: |
| 03:13.58 | wobWork | now you have to go back to your earliest save game |
| 03:14.03 | Xuerian | cause/effect? o_0 |
| 03:14.09 | Legorol | - you are never given a choice |
| 03:14.15 | Legorol | - you are given a choice but either choice is fine |
| 03:14.31 | Xuerian | buh |
| 03:14.37 | Xuerian | Honest to gooness question |
| 03:14.40 | Xuerian | gooness, yes |
| 03:14.45 | Xuerian | WHAT'S THE FUN IN THAT?! |
| 03:14.46 | Legorol | - given a choice that is somehow the "wrong one", you are given a means to rectify it that is *beneficial* at your current state in the game |
| 03:15.16 | Nom- | pfft |
| 03:15.19 | Legorol | e.g. put a means in or near or behind strat scarlet that *also* drops the scarlet key |
| 03:15.25 | Nom- | Paladins get shafted with Aldor/Scryers |
| 03:15.27 | Legorol | put a lvl 60 elite in the woods that drops the key |
| 03:15.33 | Nom- | It's all warrior loot |
| 03:15.40 | Legorol | i dont' care what, but don't make the player rectify a bad choice by having to backtrack |
| 03:15.52 | Legorol | because then you haven't really given them a choice |
| 03:16.16 | Nom- | bah you still going on that? |
| 03:16.20 | bleetah | it's a choice, just not the one you want |
| 03:16.29 | Legorol | then it's not a choice |
| 03:16.31 | bleetah | you can still choose to ignore telaar |
| 03:16.39 | Legorol | that is true |
| 03:16.47 | Nom- | There's always a choice...you can grind your way to 70 without doing a single quest if you'd prefer |
| 03:16.53 | Xuerian | Legorol: Players have had to backtrack to rectify a bad choice practically since games have existed. Yes, there are many choices that give you a current alternative, but why. Why, WHY does EVERY choice have to have a easy, current out? |
| 03:16.57 | Nom- | I'm sure that can be arranged...ask a GM to disable all quests for you |
| 03:17.16 | Legorol | Xuerian: it doesn't have to be easy |
| 03:17.20 | Legorol | it just has to be *current* |
| 03:17.27 | wobWork | well, why? |
| 03:17.37 | wobWork | what's so special about 'current'? |
| 03:17.38 | Legorol | otherwise, in my opinion (and this is just an opinion) it breaks the immersion and fun for the player |
| 03:17.40 | Xuerian | s/easy, current/easy OR current/ |
| 03:17.46 | Legorol | that "current" means progress, |
| 03:17.52 | Legorol | and players enjoy progress, not backtracking |
| 03:17.54 | wobWork | honestly speaking, heading to SM to pick up the key is just one zone to the west... |
| 03:18.08 | Legorol | wob: you still keep assuming the players *know* about SM |
| 03:18.17 | wobWork | I can't help ignorance |
| 03:18.26 | Legorol | it's not ignorance |
| 03:18.29 | wobWork | how about your 'dropping the key from a mob' solution? |
| 03:18.39 | wobWork | how does the player know that the key is dropped? |
| 03:18.47 | Legorol | as i said, the quest layout of WoW is such that you could easily be progressing through the game, having done a fair amount of exploration (just not everything), and miss SM |
| 03:18.51 | Xuerian | immersion and fun? If you're leveling, it's not immersion. If your choices bear no consequences (Oh, I don't need to go there now. In a couple levels, this mob will drop the key. A few more, that chest will have it. Then a few more, someone by teh door will tell me to turn around three times and I can get in.), what's the point of choices in the first place? |
| 03:19.24 | Xuerian | Legorol: And you could easily progress through the game while skipping scarlet strat? What's the major difference? |
| 03:19.27 | Legorol | the choices in a game are not for consequences |
| 03:19.33 | Legorol | the choices in a game are for the players enjoyment |
| 03:19.39 | Legorol | so that he can pick which alternative he *enjoys* |
| 03:19.52 | Xuerian | That's like saying sex is only about instant gratification |
| 03:19.56 | Legorol | at least in WoW, that's the impression that Blizzard is trying to instill, in my opinion |
| 03:20.07 | Xuerian | In fact, to gamers, that IS saying sex is only about instant gratification |
| 03:20.13 | Xuerian | (imo, but in fact had a good ring to it) |
| 03:20.49 | Legorol | what i am trying to argue is that given the *perception* Blizzard gives you about WoW, |
| 03:20.56 | Legorol | via NPCs, available quests etc., |
| 03:21.08 | Legorol | i get the impression they don't intend to penalise players for choices |
| 03:21.19 | Legorol | WoW doesn't seem to me to be a game that penalises choice |
| 03:21.21 | Esamynn | just because choice is encouraged, doesn't mean that it's not completely reasonable for you not to be able to immediately know how to progress further because you didn't chose to do something at an earlier point in time |
| 03:21.23 | Xuerian | Uh. |
| 03:21.26 | Xuerian | Professions? |
| 03:21.34 | Xuerian | Race? |
| 03:21.36 | Xuerian | Alliance? |
| 03:21.38 | Xuerian | CLASS?! |
| 03:21.40 | wobWork | Class? |
| 03:21.48 | Xuerian | Warriors can't heal others easily. |
| 03:22.00 | bleetah | oO |
| 03:22.01 | Legorol | yes, those are all choices, and they are equivalent choices |
| 03:22.05 | Legorol | no one choice penalises you |
| 03:22.06 | Xuerian | Alliance can't play alongside horde. |
| 03:22.10 | Legorol | every class can be solo leveled |
| 03:22.21 | Xuerian | And you can't do scarlet strat alone! |
| 03:22.28 | wobWork | maybe at 70 |
| 03:22.30 | Xuerian | (Well, maybe at 70...) |
| 03:23.01 | Legorol | a lot of not's in there |
| 03:23.08 | Xuerian | lern2program :p |
| 03:23.34 | Sixen | l2programLua* |
| 03:23.38 | Sixen | :P |
| 03:23.40 | bleetah | and don't forget that double, and even triple negatives, are legitimate in english ;) |
| 03:23.49 | wobWork | "Just because choice is encouraged means that it is reasonable for you to be able to not know how to progress further because you chose to do something different at a previous time" |
| 03:24.06 | Xuerian | "Just because choice is encouraged, doesn't make it unreasonable for you to not immediately know how to progress further *because you chose to not do something earlier* |
| 03:24.08 | bleetah | just 'coz some loon in the late 1700's wrote a book that said they weren't, don't make it any less of a fact that they are |
| 03:24.13 | Xuerian | well that's not really better. |
| 03:24.40 | wobWork | heheh I still remember our raidvotes: "I have never not done this instance: Y/N" |
| 03:24.55 | Tain | You guys obviously didn't play Final Fantasy XII. There are five chests scattered about the world among all the other random chests. |
| 03:25.08 | Tain | And if you open any of those specific five you can't get the best weapon in the game. |
| 03:25.26 | Xuerian | tain: That's what Cave Story is like. |
| 03:25.28 | wobWork | So you end up not opening any chests? |
| 03:25.59 | Tain | Of course nothing tells you in the game about those chests. You only find out from reading spoilers. |
| 03:26.10 | Xuerian | tain: you take any of the four offers from start to end to swap your gun out, and you can't get the best weapon. You take the uncompleted booster device (you don't know there's another), and you can't get the completed one later, and you can't complete the good ending of the game |
| 03:26.12 | wobWork | oh naturally =) |
| 03:28.12 | Esamynn | Legorol: my point is basically, that I see nothing whatsoever wrong with the Scarlet Key |
| 03:28.23 | Xuerian | Aha! "Because choice is encouraged means that: It is reasonable for you to not know how to progres--- |
| 03:28.27 | Xuerian | Damnit v.v |
| 03:28.42 | Legorol | Esamynn: yes i understand your point, and i understand most people's point here too |
| 03:28.48 | Legorol | i just disagree with it |
| 03:28.55 | Legorol | what i don't understand is why you don't understand my point |
| 03:29.07 | Xuerian | And us, you, ours. |
| 03:29.15 | Legorol | that in my view, WoW is and should be structured (for the most part) as parallel strands that run alongside |
| 03:29.32 | Legorol | any path you take is fine, no path is better than another |
| 03:29.39 | Legorol | where quest choices are concerned, at least |
| 03:29.53 | Legorol | you end up gaining xp, access to more quests, leveling up, more content etc. |
| 03:30.08 | Legorol | the exceptions, like the scarlet key and the Telaar rep, don't fit in with that |
| 03:30.11 | Esamynn | Legorol: but there are some consequences to your choices |
| 03:30.19 | Legorol | it was my *opinion* that that is not appropriate for WoW |
| 03:30.20 | Esamynn | why does it have to be one or the other? |
| 03:30.59 | Xuerian | Why doesn't Esamynn talk more.. >.> |
| 03:31.18 | Legorol | because WoW is a game, for the most part, about instant gratification |
| 03:31.38 | Xuerian | o_0 |
| 03:31.40 | Legorol | if you want consequences to your choices, play a game where there is |
| 03:31.41 | Xuerian | Tell that to raiders. |
| 03:31.45 | Esamynn | Legorol: and so, *for the most part* you aren't penalised for your choices |
| 03:31.47 | Esamynn | but |
| 03:31.55 | Esamynn | that doesn't have to be an absolute |
| 03:32.01 | Legorol | that is true, however |
| 03:32.14 | Legorol | if you are penalised, it should be because someone choose to play the game like that |
| 03:32.24 | Legorol | e.g. someone who decides to try and do all quests |
| 03:32.42 | Legorol | for the average player making all sorts of choices along the way, |
| 03:32.52 | Legorol | you shouldn't penalise them by lack of access to significant game content |
| 03:33.10 | Legorol | dish out penalties that close you from elusive content, for the completist |
| 03:33.19 | Legorol | (with a way to go back and rectify the problem) |
| 03:33.27 | Esamynn | this is why, they made it actually rather difficult to NOT do SM |
| 03:33.33 | Esamynn | oh you can choose not to |
| 03:33.42 | Esamynn | but the chances of you actually doing so are pretty slim |
| 03:33.54 | Legorol | hm, interesting, i found it quite hard to actually do SM |
| 03:33.59 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1) |
| 03:34.02 | Xuerian | Especially if one "Decides to try and do all the quests" |
| 03:34.04 | Legorol | when i heard that it exists (from other people), i had to go looking for quests for it |
| 03:34.17 | Legorol | as i leveled 1-60, forever following NPCs that told me to go here and there, |
| 03:34.23 | Esamynn | there are quest chains that point you to it on *both* continents |
| 03:34.25 | Legorol | i never even got close to southshore or SM |
| 03:34.33 | Legorol | yes, but they are presented as part of *choices* |
| 03:34.44 | Legorol | you either follow NPC A and go to Zone X, or follow NPC B and go to Zone Y |
| 03:34.53 | Legorol | there are choices like that all the time |
| 03:34.58 | zenzelezz | or you do both |
| 03:35.00 | Xuerian | That doesn't keep you from doing both. |
| 03:35.02 | Legorol | you make these choices, that leads you down a particular chain of quests |
| 03:35.06 | Xuerian | While still being the appropriate level |
| 03:35.13 | Legorol | Xuerian: actually it does |
| 03:35.15 | Esamynn | so you discover you don't have a key when you get to Scarlet Strath, and you never went to SM |
| 03:35.16 | Tain | You also then made a choice not to explore. |
| 03:35.22 | Tain | Which is another huge part of the game. |
| 03:35.23 | Xuerian | Legorol: I'd really beg to disagree o_0 |
| 03:35.32 | Legorol | nothing stops you from doing both, that's true |
| 03:35.33 | Tain | Choices choices choices everywhere. |
| 03:35.42 | Esamynn | I think there is enough evidence of where the Scarlet Crusade's other bases are that you could go and find said key |
| 03:35.44 | Xuerian | Legorol: On almost all my characters, I've hopped between many zones -for the same level range- (Barring 1-10) |
| 03:35.44 | Legorol | but, given a choice, it's sensible that you *make a choice* and go along with it |
| 03:36.01 | sysrage | purple is epic, orange is legendary, what's blue and green called? |
| 03:36.09 | Legorol | rare uncommon |
| 03:36.10 | zenzelezz | rare, uncommon |
| 03:36.13 | Tain | Yellow and blue make green. |
| 03:36.25 | Esamynn | very good Tain |
| 03:36.25 | Legorol | Xuerian: because you are a completist, of a kind |
| 03:36.30 | Legorol | i'm a completist of a different kind: |
| 03:36.39 | Legorol | i make a choice, then i follow it along as far as it goes |
| 03:36.46 | Xuerian | Legorol: Not really, I did all the quests in one area, and *to level*, went to another area, and did the quests there |
| 03:36.47 | Legorol | if that takes me to another zone, i follow it |
| 03:36.53 | Legorol | i keep following up, along one strand all the time |
| 03:36.56 | Xuerian | But I see your point. |
| 03:36.57 | Legorol | and that got me from 1-60 |
| 03:37.21 | Legorol | i had never had the need to go back and make the *other choice* too, in order to keep progressing |
| 03:37.32 | Legorol | this was especially true for zones |
| 03:37.38 | zenzelezz | no, but that was your own choice |
| 03:37.41 | Xuerian | Also, When you said it should be many parallel threads.... Did you -really- mean it should be like a 'normal' shooter game, where there is only one storyline to follow that never branches off, and never gives different things depending on what (or how many) branches you take? |
| 03:37.43 | Legorol | i skipped dustwallow, southshore, large parts of kalimdor and arathi |
| 03:38.09 | Legorol | Xuerian: quite the opposite |
| 03:38.23 | Legorol | depending on the choices you make along the way, you get different things |
| 03:38.32 | Legorol | you do different quests |
| 03:38.35 | Legorol | you get different quest rewards |
| 03:38.43 | Xuerian | So, it follows |
| 03:38.49 | Legorol | but, sometimes these lines converge |
| 03:38.49 | Xuerian | You do different quests, you get access to different areas |
| 03:38.51 | Xuerian | Right...? |
| 03:38.57 | Legorol | at significant game content, such as level 60 instances |
| 03:38.59 | Xuerian | You yourself said it |
| 03:39.10 | *** join/#wowi-lounge AndrewFBlack (n=AndrewFB@234-25.dothan.cable.graceba.net) |
| 03:39.18 | Legorol | Xuerian: no, not quite |
| 03:39.19 | AndrewFBlack | Hey |
| 03:39.25 | Legorol | these lines cross and recross all the time, |
| 03:39.27 | Xuerian | Legorol: Normal strat is perfectly accessible, scarlet is nothing more than a sideline barring the few quests that venture into it |
| 03:39.57 | Legorol | that is true, but i was about to respond to your comment that these lines don't run parallel in the sense that |
| 03:40.02 | Legorol | once you start one, you can never go on the other |
| 03:40.05 | Legorol | in fact quite the opposite |
| 03:40.07 | AndrewFBlack | Is there a way to make a text file of information and search it using a ui |
| 03:40.12 | Esamynn | there is another angle to the scarlet key that hasn't come up yet |
| 03:40.14 | Legorol | they keep runing into each other all the time |
| 03:40.20 | Legorol | Esamynn: go on |
| 03:40.26 | Legorol | AnduinLothar: nope |
| 03:40.37 | wobWork | psst |
| 03:40.40 | Esamynn | instances are inherently a group affair, what are the chances that all 5 people in your group chose to not goto SM |
| 03:40.41 | Legorol | you have to load the information with the addon when you load the addon |
| 03:40.44 | wobWork | AndrewBlack, not Anduin =) |
| 03:40.49 | Legorol | bleh |
| 03:40.52 | Legorol | tab-complete ftl |
| 03:40.56 | Xuerian | Esamynn: That actually did come up a long while back :P |
| 03:41.00 | AndrewFBlack | ?? |
| 03:41.03 | Esamynn | ahh, I missed it |
| 03:41.05 | Xuerian | Nom- brought that up. |
| 03:41.22 | Legorol | Esamynn: that is a good point, but that doesn't really touch on the essence of the discussion |
| 03:41.28 | Xuerian | But yes, it's another good point in the whole thing. In the end we're agreeing on facts and arguing opinons. |
| 03:41.37 | Legorol | yes |
| 03:41.46 | Esamynn | Legorol: ok then, find me another example! :P |
| 03:41.58 | Legorol | i did, with the telaar rep |
| 03:42.03 | Xuerian | Legorol: It does, in a way, because you're faulting the developers for not making it accessable at 60. But look - What if the developers counted on the *now* instead of the *start*? |
| 03:42.07 | wobWork | "Non-Convergant Quests. Great idea, or GREATEST idea?" |
| 03:42.35 | *** join/#wowi-lounge PProvost (n=PProvost@pool-71-112-39-129.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 03:42.52 | Nom- | Clearly Legorol doesn't grasp the concept of life. |
| 03:43.01 | Esamynn | Legorol: so there they make it so that you can either get quick Kurenai rep before you actually need it, or you can grind it out when you need it |
| 03:43.04 | Nom- | After all, things you do as a child affect your adult life |
| 03:43.08 | Legorol | ok, let's touch on the idea of player knowledge and experience then |
| 03:43.13 | Nom- | Why is the same thing in a game so difficult to understand |
| 03:43.15 | Tain | WoW does not reflect life. |
| 03:43.18 | Xuerian | (Just so those involved are sure, I'm not actually being hostile here, I'm just bored as all get out, and arguing is fun) |
| 03:43.27 | Legorol | Tain touched on the point |
| 03:43.31 | Legorol | WoW should not reflect life |
| 03:43.40 | Xuerian | Right. |
| 03:43.45 | Legorol | there should not be real and big penalties to your actions (and there aren't) |
| 03:43.50 | Xuerian | But like Esamynn said, it doesn't ALWAYS have to differ from life. |
| 03:43.55 | Tain | I happen to think Legorol is making an argument that doesn't really matter at all, but that is my own personal opinion. But you can't apply real life to a game. |
| 03:44.05 | Legorol | my opinion today is that no penalty should require you to go back to prior content that you long past |
| 03:44.05 | zenzelezz | I'm really having trouble seeing these penalties |
| 03:44.09 | Legorol | that's all i was arguing |
| 03:44.16 | Legorol | any penalty in the current environment is fine |
| 03:44.32 | Nom- | hahahahah |
| 03:44.48 | *** join/#wowi-lounge PProvost_ (n=PProvost@pool-71-112-39-129.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 03:44.53 | Esamynn | Legorol: can you come up with any example of a penalty that makes you "go back" that isn't a group affair like the Scarlet Key is? |
| 03:45.13 | Legorol | i did with the telaar rep, which is what started the whole discussion |
| 03:45.20 | Legorol | until you pointed out that i can grind rep on the ogres, |
| 03:45.26 | Legorol | at which point i get less angry about the thing |
| 03:45.29 | *** part/#wowi-lounge AndrewFBlack (n=AndrewFB@234-25.dothan.cable.graceba.net) |
| 03:45.31 | Legorol | s/get/got/ |
| 03:46.09 | Nom- | Legorol: Do you have more than one 60? Did you do any endgame content? |
| 03:46.09 | Esamynn | I think that we have now come full circle, or perhaps we've been going in circles for a while ;) |
| 03:46.28 | Legorol | Nom-: yes and yes |
| 03:46.29 | Xuerian | #2. :p |
| 03:46.41 | Nom- | Then how can you not understand the concept of progression? |
| 03:46.44 | Legorol | thre is a spinoff topic, which did come up along the way, that we can chat about ;-) |
| 03:46.55 | Legorol | Nom-: i don't understand what you are referring to |
| 03:47.01 | Nom- | You can't honestly expect to take a group of brand new 60's into Naxx and get anywhere? |
| 03:47.03 | Legorol | progression initially involves levelling, then gearing up |
| 03:47.15 | Legorol | Nom-: no and i don't |
| 03:47.24 | Legorol | who said i do? |
| 03:47.33 | Nom- | right, and the scarlet key and other quest lines are following the exact same base concept |
| 03:47.41 | Legorol | not entirely |
| 03:47.45 | Nom- | Except over a MUCH shorter timeline |
| 03:47.50 | Legorol | the scarlet key is the exception |
| 03:47.50 | Nom- | Yes, I mean SHORTER |
| 03:48.05 | Legorol | it's quite the opposite of what you call progression |
| 03:48.09 | Nom- | Levelling to 60 or 70 takes MUCH less time than it does to conquer endgame content |
| 03:48.20 | Legorol | if you look at raid progression, it involves making small steps at a time |
| 03:48.31 | Nom- | Well, one could argue that you skipped a step in the progression of a game then |
| 03:48.36 | Legorol | faced with a (currently) unsourmountable challenge, |
| 03:48.49 | Legorol | there is something else instead that you should be doing to improve yourself that gives you access to that one |
| 03:48.51 | Nom- | Much like many 60's can skip T0, T.5 and to straight to MC and get T1 |
| 03:48.55 | Legorol | in the case of the scarlet key, |
| 03:49.16 | Legorol | yes exactly it, but not having T0 doesn't stop you from going to MC |
| 03:49.28 | Legorol | conversely, if you find you can't do MC, you can go and get T0 which is *progress* |
| 03:49.43 | Legorol | with the scarlet key, you have to go and do something in a lower level instance that doesn't progress you |
| 03:49.46 | Nom- | Right...so how different a concept is that |
| 03:49.47 | Legorol | that's the whole point |
| 03:49.54 | Legorol | that it's a step back |
| 03:49.58 | Legorol | not progress |
| 03:49.59 | Nom- | Now in that same thing |
| 03:50.09 | Nom- | Replace MC with Stratholme |
| 03:50.16 | Nom- | And T0 with Scarlet Monestary |
| 03:50.17 | Legorol | fine |
| 03:50.23 | bleetah | it's only a step back because you suddenly decided at 60 to take an interest in world affairs :P |
| 03:50.24 | Legorol | except you can't skip SM |
| 03:50.36 | Legorol | because then you can't do Strat |
| 03:50.44 | Nom- | Sure you can |
| 03:50.45 | zenzelezz | yes you can, bring a rogue |
| 03:50.47 | Nom- | There's other way around it |
| 03:50.54 | Legorol | ok ok we have been through the rogue thing |
| 03:50.56 | Nom- | It's exactly the same concept :) |
| 03:51.02 | Legorol | and i had already said thsoe are perfectly fine alternatives |
| 03:51.12 | Legorol | Nom-: no, it still isn't |
| 03:51.16 | Legorol | let's make the parallel again |
| 03:51.19 | Nom- | It is |
| 03:51.23 | Legorol | T0 is SM, Strat is MC |
| 03:51.26 | Xuerian | Legorol: It exists other places in the game. If you don't do Naxx (60) you can't do Kaharan (70) |
| 03:51.30 | Nom- | You could equate Stratholme + Rogue as MC + GFPP |
| 03:51.46 | Xuerian | If you don't do the library (35-40), you can't do Scarlet (50-60) |
| 03:51.50 | Legorol | Xuerian: i didn't know that, but let's take that example |
| 03:52.01 | Legorol | ok, those are both great examples |
| 03:52.08 | Tain | If you don't do BRS you can't do MC. |
| 03:52.14 | Legorol | so let's look at the parallel and the differences |
| 03:52.24 | Nom- | Yes, you can Tain :) |
| 03:52.25 | Legorol | Tain brought up a good one too |
| 03:52.34 | Nom- | You don't need BRS for MC |
| 03:52.38 | Legorol | i think Tain meant BRD |
| 03:52.40 | Nom- | You don't even need BRD for MC |
| 03:52.48 | Tain | Yeah BRD. Been too long. |
| 03:52.55 | Legorol | Nom-: O.o? |
| 03:53.07 | Xuerian | Seconded o.0 |
| 03:53.07 | Nom- | Having BRD just makes it a LOT easier to get into MC |
| 03:53.16 | wobWork | true |
| 03:53.21 | Legorol | sure, you can go *through* BRD to the MC entrance |
| 03:53.25 | Legorol | but that *is* doing BRD |
| 03:53.35 | Legorol | anyway, back to the parallels |
| 03:53.41 | Nom- | Ok, well you don't need to get MC attunement to do MC |
| 03:53.42 | Legorol | in all the xamples you guys mentioned, |
| 03:53.44 | Nom- | Let's put it that way lol |
| 03:53.59 | Legorol | at the stage where you want to do your final go (Kahrazan, MC etc.) |
| 03:54.05 | Tain | You still have to do BRD. It is a matter of skipping content. |
| 03:54.12 | Legorol | doing the prerequisite is *level appropriate*, therefore challenging and potentially rewarding |
| 03:54.14 | wobWork | and lots of content |
| 03:54.14 | Tain | Plus there's the BWL key! More content! |
| 03:54.19 | Legorol | the scarlet key obtainment is neither |
| 03:54.22 | Zicon | Just curious, how long have you guys been at this discussion? I feel I've seen the same every time I've looked in for quite a few hours now... |
| 03:54.29 | wobWork | Onyxia attunement =) |
| 03:54.32 | Legorol | hour and a half |
| 03:54.54 | Cairenn | it has indeed been going on for a while now Zicon ;) |
| 03:54.59 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Xuerian (n=core@12-196-151-31.psknet.net) |
| 03:55.00 | bleetah | it's one of those circular discussions, as there is no 'right' or 'wrong' |
| 03:55.08 | Legorol | the point i am trying to make is that all the attunement/access requirements you guys brought up in and of itself progresses your game, with teh *exception* of the scarlet key |
| 03:55.12 | Zicon | Just watching makes my brain cells sweat. >.< |
| 03:55.20 | Legorol | sure, it's an opinion thing |
| 03:55.21 | Tain | Been a while since I've done Onyxia too. Is there anything Ony drops that you need for further keys/attunement? I can't remember. |
| 03:55.26 | bleetah | it just reinforces my opinion that BC has turned most decent players into jibbering nubs ;) :P j/k legorol |
| 03:55.27 | Legorol | i'm happy to quit any time you guys are tired |
| 03:55.33 | wobWork | ony scale cloak? |
| 03:55.36 | Cairenn | they're having fun and mostly it's being civil, so it's all good :) |
| 03:55.45 | Legorol | as Cairenn said |
| 03:55.48 | Legorol | "mostly"? |
| 03:55.51 | Legorol | completely ;-) |
| 03:55.52 | Tain | It is one of those dicussions that makes no difference at all other than as an exercise in discussing something. :) |
| 03:55.56 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:56.00 | Xuerian | Legorol: If I got to 70 without touching naxx (which is likely), I wouldn't be able to go to Kahz. It would be going back for me to go to naxx. |
| 03:56.04 | Legorol | exactly, Tain |
| 03:56.15 | Zicon | I'm impressed with the civil part, actually. IRC discussions rarely are if they go on for this long. |
| 03:56.21 | zenzelezz | Xuerian: why can't you go Kharazan without Naxx? |
| 03:56.25 | wobWork | well we all basically agree =P |
| 03:56.26 | Legorol | Xuerian: wouldn't Naxx gear improve you, even at 70? |
| 03:56.37 | wobWork | It's just the details that make for conversation =P |
| 03:56.37 | Cairenn | they do in this channel, or they get stopped :) |
| 03:56.46 | Legorol | linux vs. windows! |
| 03:56.55 | wobWork | emacs vs Vi! |
| 03:57.01 | Legorol | both are horrid |
| 03:57.05 | Tain | Oh yeah well ur a dum poophead!!@!# |
| 03:57.17 | bleetah | hexedit |
| 03:57.17 | Xuerian | zenzelezz: Legorol's scope is not being in a group (Being solo). Wasn't Khazaran's requirement the legendary staff from Naxx? If I haven't solo'ed naxx by 70, and intend to solo Khazaran at 70, I'll have to go back to get to get forward.... |
| 03:57.18 | Legorol | Zicon: i think you'll find that in most cases, people enjoy the discussion itself, the mental swordfight if you like |
| 03:57.20 | wobWork | liar liar pants on fire =P |
| 03:57.23 | Legorol | which is part of the reason why it carries on |
| 03:58.07 | Xuerian | zenzelezz: Yes I know soloing it is entirely impossible, but, that's the scope Legorol has defined |
| 03:58.07 | wobWork | zenz? |
| 03:58.08 | wobWork | or Zic? |
| 03:58.08 | Legorol | yeah maybe we should separate group content from solo content |
| 03:58.08 | Legorol | in group settings, an individual's choices have lot less impact |
| 03:58.08 | Legorol | see e.g. scarlet key |
| 03:58.16 | zenzelezz | I missed the beginning of this discussion, but I fail to see where Atiesh comes into question for Kharazan |
| 03:58.18 | Legorol | which is why it is perhaps not as good an analogy to my current plight |
| 03:58.31 | wobWork | generally instances are always group settings -at that level- |
| 03:58.42 | Legorol | i beleive that in solo quest content, Blizzard generally gives the following impression in WoW: |
| 03:58.54 | Xuerian | zenzelezz: Well, Atiesh was a requirement for SOMETHING... What was it? >.> |
| 03:58.58 | wobWork | 1: Working as intended |
| 03:58.59 | Corrodias | ckknight, is he around now? |
| 03:59.05 | Legorol | "look, you have all these choices, pick the ones you like, enjoy yourself, you will still have choices later, and no choices are going to gimp you later" |
| 03:59.07 | wobWork | 2: Delete your WTF and WDB folders |
| 03:59.13 | ckknight | Corrodias: I have never left you, child |
| 03:59.15 | Legorol | at least that's very much the impression i get when doing quests in WoW |
| 03:59.48 | Legorol | you guys may disagree with my interpretation, feel free |
| 03:59.55 | Legorol | you can also disagree with my playstyle |
| 03:59.59 | wobWork | okay, instances aside, where have you been gimped? (Also aside from the nonexistant rep issue) |
| 04:00.04 | Corrodias | you have fixed the thing in questsfu where opening a quest details tablet and then closing it with the close button requires you to still press escape before escape will respond again, and i'm happy about that |
| 04:00.07 | zenzelezz | well, that's a matter of opinion. I accept all quests and end up doing 90% of them at least |
| 04:00.13 | Legorol | (i.e. actually following NPC suggestions, making ng choices and sticking to them, not going back and doing the other choice too, etc.) |
| 04:00.18 | zenzelezz | never felt the game forces me to choose some over other |
| 04:00.31 | Legorol | it doesn't force you |
| 04:00.33 | wobWork | Look at the centaur quests in Desolace |
| 04:00.35 | Corrodias | but i'm distressed that it still happens whenever i progress in a quest or obtain a new quest |
| 04:00.39 | Legorol | but in my questing i always find that i'm encouraged to choose |
| 04:00.42 | wobWork | You can make an irreversible choice |
| 04:00.44 | Legorol | the signs that encourage me to choose: |
| 04:00.49 | Xuerian | I agree with everything but one small fraction, which is the true contention of this whole debate - "You will still have choices later [that do not require you to go do anything you could've done any reasonable time earlier]" vs "You will still have choices later [That may require you to go back and do something that's now menial to progress" |
| 04:01.00 | Legorol | - at a certain point, two NPCs will send me in two opposite directions to two different zones of the same level |
| 04:01.07 | Legorol | so i choose to follow one or the other |
| 04:01.08 | wobWork | oh no, unterminated square brackets =) |
| 04:01.14 | Xuerian | bah |
| 04:01.20 | Legorol | - there are more quests than you can complete without outleveling the quests |
| 04:01.28 | Xuerian | s/ress"/ress]"/ |
| 04:01.28 | wobWork | Well I'd hope so |
| 04:01.29 | Legorol | that encourages me to choose which quests to complete |
| 04:01.35 | wobWork | otherwise replay would be boring |
| 04:02.11 | wobWork | You wouldn't want the quest world to be so small that you can complete all the content on one character |
| 04:02.16 | bleetah | ok, so to top off being told by the 'leet' guild on my realm that my 60 toon shouldn't be running around Zangarmarsh because it's too high level... I've also been told that I should have BWL gear 'coz it's not survivable without |
| 04:02.21 | Legorol | wobwork: exactly |
| 04:02.30 | Legorol | yet all characters must have access to certain key content |
| 04:02.38 | wobWork | not necessarily |
| 04:02.39 | Legorol | such as big instances that Blizzard put effort in to |
| 04:02.43 | wobWork | why? |
| 04:02.44 | Corrodias | that leet guild is apparently leetly stupid |
| 04:02.56 | Xuerian | Legorol: That invokes the "Group" clause |
| 04:02.57 | wobWork | If I'm totally against raiding, why should that stop me from levelling to 60? |
| 04:03.02 | Legorol | from a development point of view, the quest structure should be to guide players towards these "focal" points, no matter which path they followed so far |
| 04:03.09 | wobWork | sure |
| 04:03.10 | Xuerian | Legorol: Which nullifies your argument with the numerous others brought up against it earlier :p |
| 04:03.25 | Legorol | ok let's have a look at instances for example |
| 04:03.36 | wobWork | which are a group setting |
| 04:03.44 | Corrodias | ckknight, questsfu correctly does not consume an escape keypress when you close a quest details pane any more, which you fixed a little while back. however, getting a quest progress update or getting a new quest still does it. |
| 04:03.46 | Legorol | and i already agreed that group setting is a different environemnt |
| 04:03.53 | Legorol | the thing i wanted to say about instances is this: |
| 04:03.54 | Corrodias | let's see if using his name helps him see it :) |
| 04:04.10 | Legorol | when you reach a certain level, appropriate for some instance in Azeroth, |
| 04:04.24 | Legorol | no matter which zone you currently happen to be questing, you tend to find a quest or two for that instance |
| 04:04.26 | cladhaire | night all |
| 04:04.26 | Esamynn | Xuerian: what is Kaharan? |
| 04:04.35 | wobWork | Kharazan? |
| 04:04.42 | Legorol | if you look at the quest layouts, that's one reason why quests for instances are so scattered around, |
| 04:04.42 | Corrodias | karazhan |
| 04:04.44 | Esamynn | night clad|sleep |
| 04:04.47 | Esamynn | ahh ok |
| 04:04.50 | Legorol | to "collect in" players from all over the world |
| 04:04.53 | wobWork | hehe we're all shocking spellers |
| 04:04.54 | Legorol | gnight clad|sleep |
| 04:04.59 | Xuerian | Esamynn: The combination of my bad memory, bad spelling, and lack of involvement with anything around "Kharazan" :P |
| 04:05.03 | clad|sleep | night |
| 04:05.03 | Esamynn | why do you have to do Naxx to do Karazhan? |
| 04:05.11 | Corrodias | i don't think you do have to |
| 04:05.12 | clad|sleep | you dont at all |
| 04:05.15 | clad|sleep | in the least |
| 04:05.16 | Cairenn | night clad|sleep |
| 04:05.17 | Xuerian | I was wrong! |
| 04:05.20 | Xuerian | I admit that <.< |
| 04:05.22 | Legorol | the other thing i wanted to point out is how Blizzard strategically placed NPCs that will guide you to the relevant zone/quest/instance if you happen to be far away from it atm |
| 04:05.33 | Esamynn | ~bzfrag Xuerian |
| 04:05.46 | purl | ACTION kills Xuerian with a shot from his BZTank |
| 04:05.46 | Xuerian | See, I thought you had to have Ateish to get into something in Kharazan. |
| 04:05.49 | Xuerian | I'm still convinced you have to have Ateish to get into something. I asked what earlier. |
| 04:05.50 | Cairenn | lol |
| 04:05.54 | Legorol | e.g. goblin in steemwheedle port that sends you off to Burning Steppes so you can pick up BRS quests |
| 04:05.54 | clad|sleep | you don't. |
| 04:05.58 | clad|sleep | its a legendary item |
| 04:05.59 | Cairenn | hi LocutusOfNorg |
| 04:06.02 | clad|sleep | that takes a month to farm |
| 04:06.08 | clad|sleep | its a perk, not a requirement |
| 04:06.14 | Esamynn | Xuerian: ateish is just a shortcut TO Kharazan :P |
| 04:06.30 | Nom- | very few players will have it |
| 04:06.32 | Legorol | anyway, i will make my closing argument: |
| 04:06.34 | Nom- | so they can't use that as a pre-req |
| 04:06.37 | LocutusOfNorg | You will all be assimilated |
| 04:06.40 | Xuerian | Esamynn: Then it applied! The Scarlet key is a shortcut to Scarlet strat! |
| 04:06.42 | Xuerian | XD |
| 04:06.45 | Legorol | - in group settings (instance) you are hardly ever penalised, scarlet key is good example |
| 04:07.21 | Xuerian | (And that's because people bitch and whine about other people having better things that they can't get, when they're forced to play in close proximity. See: PVP) |
| 04:07.24 | Xuerian | :p |
| 04:07.30 | Legorol | - in solo setting, you should be allowed to just follow your chain of choices, and progress along that chain, especially if that is encouraged by NPCs |
| 04:07.32 | Nom- | I get the feeling that Legorol is one of those players who doesn't think they should have to grind Timbermaw rep :P |
| 04:07.34 | Esamynn | ~lart Xuerian |
| 04:07.43 | Legorol | Nom-: completely disagree |
| 04:07.45 | Esamynn | ~botsnack |
| 04:07.45 | purl | Esamynn: aw, gee |
| 04:07.46 | Xuerian | I was already dead v.v |
| 04:07.55 | Legorol | grinding it for the Water to Air recipe was a great project |
| 04:08.06 | Legorol | it's quite the opposite |
| 04:08.17 | Legorol | *worthwhile* efforts that give me *progress* are always fine |
| 04:08.43 | Legorol | i think you haven't been listening to me if you don't get the point: it's going back to earlier content that in itself doesn't provide any progress that irks me |
| 04:08.53 | Nom- | I'd like to close this with..except for Heroic instnaces, there's virtually nothing in the game that REQUIRES anything |
| 04:09.08 | Legorol | hehe |
| 04:09.11 | Legorol | i shall do the same |
| 04:09.16 | Nom- | If it's dependent on rep, there's always something you can grind on |
| 04:09.30 | Legorol | but i will blame the NPCs that send you from Zang to Terokkar prematurely, before you go to Orebor Harborage |
| 04:09.40 | Legorol | if you follow that path, you never end up doing the Kurenai quests |
| 04:09.40 | Nom- | UBRS being about the only special exception |
| 04:09.49 | Legorol | later on you are sent from Terokkar to Nagrand... and are stuck |
| 04:09.55 | Nom- | I mean, it's pretty darn hard to get into UBRS without having someone attuned :P |
| 04:10.05 | Legorol | well, you go get the ring |
| 04:10.16 | Legorol | but at that level and wihtout having done UBRS, that will get you a lot of things: |
| 04:10.20 | Legorol | XP, money, usable loot |
| 04:10.28 | Legorol | that's still progress |
| 04:10.34 | wobWork | sob |
| 04:10.46 | wobWork | I've never considered grinding for the ubrs key 'progress' =P |
| 04:10.56 | wobWork | 'a pain in the arse' certainly =) |
| 04:11.03 | Legorol | i did, and i did grind it |
| 04:11.11 | Legorol | i had several good drops in the process |
| 04:11.26 | Legorol | and in the end i acquired the ring so i didn't have to depend on others in the group having it |
| 04:11.33 | wobWork | how did you ever get enough lbrs runs =P No one wants to do it allianceside =P |
| 04:11.35 | Legorol | since, unlike the SM key, very few people had the UBRS ring ;-) |
| 04:11.53 | Legorol | wobWork: by doing it the way instances were designed to be done: in parts |
| 04:12.09 | Legorol | i would do runs for Ogre boss only, then troll boss only, then Wyrmthalak only |
| 04:12.12 | Legorol | never a full run |
| 04:12.15 | Corrodias | i'm still grinding out the UBRS key |
| 04:12.18 | wobWork | I always had issues finding groups in the first place =P |
| 04:12.33 | Legorol | good guild helps there, that's for sure |
| 04:12.38 | wobWork | true that |
| 04:12.39 | Thrae | So, what do people use as an item database along with Auctioneer? |
| 04:12.43 | Legorol | but i had been on plenty pugs too |
| 04:12.54 | wobWork | pugs often sap my will to live |
| 04:12.56 | Legorol | Thrae: lootlink |
| 04:13.02 | wobWork | (and not just for 14 seconds in pvp) |
| 04:13.03 | Guillotine | Thrae: item database? you mean like to link items? |
| 04:13.05 | Legorol | wobWork: absolutely |
| 04:13.09 | Thrae | Guillotine: Right. |
| 04:13.14 | Legorol | the worst part is that i'm a prot. warrior |
| 04:13.22 | Legorol | in a guild group, i have a great and appreciated job |
| 04:13.22 | Guillotine | GetLink imo. Takes up no storage space |
| 04:13.27 | wobWork | tankalicious? |
| 04:13.27 | Thrae | Legorol: Is its database still impossibly large? |
| 04:13.28 | Legorol | in a Pug, i am completely and utterly useless |
| 04:13.37 | Legorol | Thrae: no idea |
| 04:13.41 | zenzelezz | why are you useless in a PUG? |
| 04:13.48 | wobWork | I dunno, I <3 a good tank in a pug |
| 04:13.48 | Legorol | reason being that people don't focus fire, don't watch their aggro |
| 04:13.53 | wobWork | oh yeah |
| 04:13.56 | Thrae | Guillotine: That doesn't save items through sessions, though. |
| 04:14.03 | wobWork | pugs sap my will to live =P |
| 04:14.03 | Legorol | well the problem is, even a good tank can't do anything about certain things |
| 04:14.10 | Legorol | rogue and mage going full dps on two separate targets |
| 04:14.11 | Guillotine | it doesn't save them at all. it takes it from your cache |
| 04:14.13 | zenzelezz | well why do you bother with bad PUGs? Just leave them, they're not worth the erffort |
| 04:14.14 | Tain | He spends the whole time in a PUG discussing the relative benefits of doing the quests they are in the middle of. :) |
| 04:14.16 | Thrae | Exactly. |
| 04:14.30 | Legorol | healer starting to heal as soon as rogue saps, so i'm supposed to collect aggro on 4 mobs running for him, simultaneously |
| 04:14.54 | Legorol | zenzelezz: lol |
| 04:14.57 | Nom- | prot pally > prot warrior for versatility :P |
| 04:15.00 | Legorol | those are the kinds of pugs that make me cry |
| 04:15.02 | wobWork | I admit to being slow on the vanish button ... true |
| 04:15.07 | Nom- | whack on a 2-hander and all of a sudden you're dps :P |
| 04:15.15 | Nom- | As long as you're taking some damage, you're good dps too :P |
| 04:15.25 | Legorol | guild groups are best |
| 04:15.31 | wobWork | yeah well pallies can tank now =) |
| 04:15.36 | Legorol | there i'm allowed to spec arms, tank with 2H, and we have no aggro management problems |
| 04:15.43 | wobWork | often quite effectively with unbalanced groups |
| 04:15.54 | wobWork | and in smaller groups, they shine |
| 04:15.56 | Corrodias | GOD damn paladins |
| 04:16.05 | wobWork | since aggro management is easier with less targets in the party |
| 04:16.05 | Nom- | Bah you love our buffs |
| 04:16.07 | Legorol | actually you know what's causing the current apparent nerf to tanking, and all the debates? |
| 04:16.08 | Nom- | I've got kings now :P |
| 04:16.13 | JoshBorke | thorngrin is pwning us =/ |
| 04:16.20 | Legorol | you know why people are starting to prefer palas and druids over warriors? |
| 04:16.23 | wobWork | Josh: Take his pants! |
| 04:16.27 | Legorol | because of bad pugs and bad warrior players |
| 04:17.23 | wobWork | and cause everyone's playing their druid |
| 04:17.23 | Nom- | nah, it's because they have more health and armor mainly Legorol |
| 04:17.24 | Nom- | well druids do |
| 04:17.24 | Legorol | in a good group, a warrior is still a superior tank to paladin/druid |
| 04:17.24 | LocutusOfNorg | warriors usually have attitudes |
| 04:17.24 | Corrodias | PRIESTS have attitudes |
| 04:17.24 | Nom- | we're quite happy with druids as tank for guild groups now |
| 04:17.24 | Legorol | LocutusOfNorg: quite possibly |
| 04:17.24 | zenzelezz | I'm getting as many random team invites as I always did on my warrior |
| 04:17.24 | Corrodias | but so do warriors, rogues, and whatnot |
| 04:17.24 | Legorol | also, most warriors are dps kiddies |
| 04:17.24 | wobWork | the problem with TBC is the unbalanced class levels |
| 04:17.24 | Legorol | and they give the class a bad name |
| 04:17.25 | zenzelezz | haven't seen any "LF pally/druid tank" yet |
| 04:17.25 | wobWork | everyone is in 'grinding' spec |
| 04:17.26 | Nom- | zenzelezz: same...i get tells constantly asking me to run BRD on my pally |
| 04:17.31 | Xuerian | zenzelezz: Druids tanks == Abba. No one says they like it... but they do. |
| 04:17.33 | wobWork | so you end up with a shadowpriest, a tank pally/druid etc |
| 04:17.47 | wobWork | Dancing queen... humhummmm |
| 04:17.49 | LocutusOfNorg | it's a pity classes get generalized so much |
| 04:17.50 | wobWork | *cough* |
| 04:17.55 | Legorol | wobWork has a great point |
| 04:17.58 | Zicon | But I like Abba... |
| 04:17.58 | AnduinLothar | i'm tanking shadowlabs, im 69 everyone else is 70. our warrior is dpsing |
| 04:18.02 | Legorol | most warriors are arms/fury atm, druids are feral |
| 04:18.10 | AnduinLothar | i went prot |
| 04:18.12 | Nom- | Then I tell them i'm a H:10/P:0/R:49 and they want me even more |
| 04:18.14 | Legorol | the former is not conducive to taning, the latter enhances it |
| 04:18.14 | Nom- | It's scary |
| 04:18.37 | Nom- | err H:10/P:0/R:39 i mean |
| 04:18.52 | Corrodias | these abstract concepts of who is doing what boggle me |
| 04:18.58 | Legorol | lol |
| 04:19.04 | Legorol | everyone bashes heads |
| 04:19.19 | Nom- | Yah, that's a good point |
| 04:19.20 | Legorol | my favourite is our "Sunday afternoon group" |
| 04:19.26 | Nom- | Warrior in grind spec < Feral Druid |
| 04:19.34 | Legorol | it's a set group, been going for a while now, of the same people |
| 04:19.39 | Legorol | it's a group omade of our alts |
| 04:19.50 | Legorol | 2 hunters, a priest, druid and mage |
| 04:20.09 | sysrage | hunter with peg = badass tank |
| 04:20.11 | Legorol | we do instances with this oddball group for fun, to break away from the "hardcore" leveling and raiding process |
| 04:20.15 | Nom- | Any Paladins here use Seal of Command religiously ? |
| 04:20.24 | Legorol | the only sad part is having to DE all those plates |
| 04:20.34 | Nom- | I honestly can't stand Seal of Command |
| 04:20.37 | Legorol | it's a great fun group |
| 04:21.08 | Nom- | The DPS from Seal of Righteousness seems soo much more stable |
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| 04:24.05 | Nom- | I'm hearing really good things about SoR+Reckoning |
| 04:25.28 | AnduinLothar | SoR is much better than SoComm ever since 2.0 |
| 04:26.05 | AnduinLothar | only think i woudl use SoComm on would be a really slow 2h |
| 04:26.25 | AnduinLothar | but i prefer fast 1h with SoR |
| 04:29.14 | Nom- | I'm going for the 3.2 second 2h with SoR/Reckoning |
| 04:29.35 | Nom- | I found SoC is only useful on mobs that are green |
| 04:29.47 | Nom- | Because it misses soooo much on equal level mobs |
| 04:30.08 | Nom- | That's the worst part, you've got spell damage being miss/block/parry |
| 04:30.52 | AnduinLothar | w/e it also uses melee crit so you can stack it and not worry abotu spell crit unless you're healing |
| 04:32.04 | Kemayo | Corrodias: Why were you telling ckknight about that? :-P |
| 04:34.11 | Kemayo | Corrodias: More to the point, I can't reproduce your bug. |
| 04:39.12 | Mr_Rabies2 | bonkbonkbonkbonk |
| 04:40.14 | Nom- | Yeah, in which case it's probably more useful when you're geared between 60 and 70 |
| 04:40.18 | Nom- | NOt when you're grinding 1-60 |
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| 04:47.11 | wobWork | nono |
| 04:47.14 | wobWork | borkborkbork |
| 04:55.00 | Cairenn | ~Swedish chef |
| 04:55.13 | purl | BORK! BORK! BORK! |
| 04:55.50 | JoshBorke | well that was fun... |
| 04:56.04 | JoshBorke | wiped to teh third boss of botanica 3 times then the mobs respawn |
| 04:56.19 | Mr_Rabies2 | instance respawns ftl |
| 04:57.01 | wobWork | instance respawns ftomgwevebeenatthisforageswhenarewegoingtokillthisbossarrgharrghitseatingmyface. |
| 04:57.20 | wobWork | hm, possibly a longer acronym than expected. |
| 04:57.23 | JoshBorke | hm |
| 04:57.25 | JoshBorke | lol |
| 04:57.48 | JoshBorke | how do you do the pulls after thorngrin? |
| 04:57.55 | wobWork | carefully? |
| 04:58.22 | JoshBorke | how much life do those little flesh things have? |
| 04:58.43 | wobWork | 100%? |
| 04:58.49 | wobWork | (pre-hit?) |
| 04:59.14 | zenzelezz | Botanica? |
| 04:59.20 | JoshBorke | yea |
| 04:59.32 | wobWork | the CoT instances? |
| 04:59.38 | zenzelezz | Tempest Keep |
| 04:59.42 | zenzelezz | it's the flesh mobs in front of Laj? |
| 04:59.43 | wobWork | oh spaceship |
| 04:59.48 | JoshBorke | yea |
| 05:00.15 | zenzelezz | well, if you're lucky enough that the humans aren't bugged and only the fleshbeasts remain, you pull them in groups of four |
| 05:00.30 | JoshBorke | we only got 1 attempt at them, but we either got pwned by death and decay or we got destroyed by the beasts |
| 05:00.36 | zenzelezz | they're immune to sheep, but traps and stuns work |
| 05:00.40 | zenzelezz | oh, wait |
| 05:00.48 | zenzelezz | you mean the groups with humans and fleshbeasts? |
| 05:00.52 | JoshBorke | yea |
| 05:01.02 | zenzelezz | do you have a mage? |
| 05:01.14 | JoshBorke | no |
| 05:01.19 | zenzelezz | hm, bugger |
| 05:01.30 | JoshBorke | disc priest, tree druid, feral druid, warrior, warrior |
| 05:01.30 | zenzelezz | the fleshbeasts should usually be killed first, always |
| 05:01.50 | JoshBorke | we're gonna try to pull back into thorngrin's room and then fear i think (tomorrow night) |
| 05:01.51 | zenzelezz | but the Gene Splicer should also die fast if you can't sheep him, because of the Death & Decay |
| 05:02.01 | zenzelezz | sounds like a worthy idea |
| 05:02.18 | JoshBorke | i tried to MC the gene splicer but aggrod the beasts |
| 05:03.14 | zenzelezz | well, the humans are all casters, so if you can focus DPS on the splicer it should die fast... but the flesh beasts can't be allowed to run onto your weak classes, they hit hard |
| 05:03.34 | JoshBorke | yea, they hit hella hard, they pulled before i could tell them that |
| 05:03.39 | JoshBorke | it was everyone's first trip in |
| 05:03.46 | JoshBorke | i was reading from wowwiki |
| 05:04.01 | zenzelezz | hehe |
| 05:04.09 | JoshBorke | <3 wowwiki |
| 05:04.10 | zenzelezz | I had a similar experience when I first went |
| 05:04.27 | JoshBorke | i think we'll be able to tear through it tomorrow night |
| 05:04.51 | zenzelezz | it's usually easy once you get to know it, but accidents can still happen ;) |
| 05:05.16 | zenzelezz | tip for the final boss: for me the best strategy has always been to just go all out DPS and ignore the adds |
| 05:06.12 | wobWork | and hope it goes down before you do =) |
| 05:06.23 | JoshBorke | we had a really hard time with thorngrin for whatever reason |
| 05:06.29 | zenzelezz | yeah, but that hasn't proven to be a problem so far |
| 05:06.32 | JoshBorke | i think we were too uncoordinated the first few times |
| 05:06.43 | zenzelezz | that's the demon one, right? |
| 05:06.47 | JoshBorke | yea |
| 05:06.53 | zenzelezz | he can be tough |
| 05:06.59 | JoshBorke | with the hellfire |
| 05:07.12 | zenzelezz | if melee is slow to move out on Hellfire, or if people ignore the loose aggro after a sacrifice |
| 05:07.48 | JoshBorke | yea, it was a problem with someone getting aggro right after a sacrifice then being insta-gibbed with a enrage hit |
| 05:08.04 | zenzelezz | hehe, sounds familiar |
| 05:10.12 | JoshBorke | but otherwise it's a fun instance =D |
| 05:10.25 | zenzelezz | yeah, I like it |
| 05:10.37 | zenzelezz | I pretty much like all the new 5-mans so far |
| 05:11.25 | JoshBorke | me too. except mana tombs |
| 05:12.34 | JoshBorke | i HATED the first boss |
| 05:12.44 | JoshBorke | mainly because we tried with a warlock tanking and he wasn't very good =D |
| 05:14.12 | Nom- | http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVxudMZV0tIMhzgzEo <-- opinions on this build ? anyone? :) |
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| 05:17.43 | Osagasu | Personally I'd say that 10 points in ret is better than 17 points in holy... But I like my parry. |
| 05:18.21 | Nom- | Well you need 10 points in holy imho |
| 05:18.34 | Nom- | That's non-negotiable...need that 70% chance to not get interrupted |
| 05:21.32 | Legorol | I'm going to perform a magic trick, to demonstrate the futility of choice |
| 05:21.43 | Legorol | i need one volunteer, someone who knows and trusts Cairenn |
| 05:21.50 | zenzelezz | you're not back at the quests again are you? |
| 05:22.04 | Legorol | no, no |
| 05:22.08 | Legorol | this will be a magic trick :D |
| 05:22.25 | *** join/#wowi-lounge TS|Skrom_ (n=TS|Skrom@adsl-70-240-135-95.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) |
| 05:22.34 | Legorol | it's doable over IRC luckily |
| 05:22.38 | Legorol | just need one volunteer |
| 05:23.03 | wobWork | << |
| 05:23.05 | wobWork | >> |
| 05:23.08 | Cairenn | they all know better than to trust me, it seems ;) |
| 05:23.32 | Legorol | lol |
| 05:25.29 | Legorol | i guess programmers don't beleive in magic tricks |
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| 05:27.32 | Karrion | sure we do, magic's what makes our code ever work >.> |
| 05:27.35 | zenzelezz | your magic scared TS_Skrom |
| 05:27.56 | Cairenn | Credendo Vides |
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| 05:29.30 | Nom- | Note: I don't have access to WoW at the moment, i'm at work ;) |
| 05:29.57 | Legorol | that's fine |
| 05:30.18 | Legorol | Cairenn: you still around? |
| 05:30.18 | Legorol | then i'll use Nom- |
| 05:30.18 | Cairenn | nope |
| 05:30.29 | Legorol | Nom-: Cairenn does not know how this works or what i'm about to do |
| 05:30.34 | Legorol | you may not beleive me, but you can beleive her |
| 05:30.41 | Legorol | i promise she is not in on it |
| 05:30.55 | Legorol | i told Cairenn a number, she will tell us at the end what number i told her |
| 05:31.00 | Cairenn | I know nuttin', nuttin'! |
| 05:31.04 | Legorol | that's all her function in the whole magic trick |
| 05:31.08 | Legorol | ok, let's get started |
| 05:31.13 | Legorol | let's take the numbers 1-12 |
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| 05:31.23 | Legorol | Nom-, could you please separate them into two groups of 6? |
| 05:31.28 | Legorol | and indicate it like this, for example: |
| 05:31.35 | Legorol | 1, 3, 7 and 8, 10, 12 |
| 05:31.43 | Nom- | k |
| 05:31.50 | Legorol | split them up any way you choose, just make two groups of 6 |
| 05:32.25 | Nom- | 1,2,4,8,10,12 and 3,5,6,7,9,11 |
| 05:32.37 | Legorol | ok, thanks |
| 05:32.48 | Legorol | these are the "left" and "right" groups |
| 05:33.01 | Legorol | could you please choose left or right |
| 05:33.12 | Nom- | right |
| 05:33.33 | Cairenn | hang on, which is which? you weren't precisely clear in that :p |
| 05:33.33 | Legorol | ok, you chose right, let's keep that group then |
| 05:33.38 | Legorol | we throw away the rest of the numbers |
| 05:33.48 | Legorol | Cairenn: sorry, i thought it's obvious, the one on the left is left |
| 05:33.54 | Legorol | i will make it more clear form here |
| 05:33.59 | Cairenn | whose left? |
| 05:34.04 | Legorol | on the monitor! |
| 05:34.14 | Legorol | ok so Nom- chose the numbers 3,5,6,7,9,11 |
| 05:34.17 | JoshBorke | i'm dyslexic |
| 05:34.29 | Esamynn | ~bzfrag Josh |
| 05:34.37 | purl | ACTION makes Josh feel the effects of a shockwave |
| 05:34.37 | Legorol | Nom-, i'd like you to split them again in two groups of 3 |
| 05:34.37 | Cairenn | left looking at the monitor, or the monitor's left? |
| 05:34.37 | Esamynn | ~bzfrag JoshBorke |
| 05:34.39 | purl | ACTION destroys JoshBorke with a guided missile |
| 05:34.40 | Esamynn | ~lart Cairenn |
| 05:34.48 | Nom- | 3,9,11 5,6,7 |
| 05:35.05 | Legorol | thanks, we will call the first group above and below |
| 05:35.09 | Legorol | sorry i mean |
| 05:35.14 | Legorol | first group is above, second group is below |
| 05:35.21 | Legorol | could you please make a choice: above or below |
| 05:35.25 | Cairenn | better |
| 05:35.29 | Nom- | below |
| 05:35.58 | Nom- | :D |
| 05:36.00 | Legorol | lol |
| 05:36.06 | Esamynn | lol |
| 05:36.07 | Legorol | well, let's keep below, that's 5, 6, 7 |
| 05:36.42 | Legorol | sec, brb |
| 05:37.01 | Legorol | back |
| 05:37.20 | Legorol | could you please (figuratively) pick one of those three to go in my left hand, one in my right hand, and one to go in my mouth :D |
| 05:37.36 | JoshBorke | o.O you want him to stick something in your mouth? o.O |
| 05:37.41 | Nom- | L:7, R:6, M:5 |
| 05:37.43 | JoshBorke | sounds kinky |
| 05:37.59 | Esamynn | ~whaleslap JoshBorke |
| 05:38.01 | purl | ACTION beats JoshBorke upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 05:38.01 | Legorol | ok, i will spit the 5 in my mouth away, so we are left with: |
| 05:38.03 | Legorol | L:7 R:6 |
| 05:38.12 | JoshBorke | ~whaleparry |
| 05:38.14 | Legorol | please point at one of those two |
| 05:38.23 | JoshBorke | ~whalebomb Esamynn |
| 05:38.25 | purl | ACTION throws an explosive whale named Gunter at Esamynn and hides. |
| 05:38.28 | bleetah | ~westley |
| 05:38.30 | purl | You warthog-faced buffoon. |
| 05:38.52 | Legorol | ok, i will discard the 6 you pointed at from my hand, let's see what's left in my hand : |
| 05:38.53 | Legorol | 7 |
| 05:39.00 | Legorol | Cairenn, what's the number i told you before we started |
| 05:39.06 | Esamynn | ~whaleparry JoshBorke |
| 05:39.07 | purl | ACTION uses a slightly less-huge but eminently more agile killer whale named Edwardo to parry JoshBorke's attacks. |
| 05:39.18 | Legorol | Cairenn? |
| 05:39.18 | Cairenn | 7, of course |
| 05:39.21 | Legorol | hehe |
| 05:39.25 | Nom- | As I said, everyone choses 7 |
| 05:39.33 | Legorol | and so did you |
| 05:39.39 | Legorol | but did you realllllly have a choice? |
| 05:39.40 | Cairenn | I actually never would, personally |
| 05:39.40 | JoshBorke | which isn't fair because i was born on the 7th so it should be my number! |
| 05:39.42 | wobWork | nope =P |
| 05:39.43 | Legorol | i knew it in advance that you would ;-) |
| 05:39.55 | Nom- | I knew in advance that you were going to chose 7 |
| 05:39.55 | wobWork | Well if he chose another 'group' you would discard that group |
| 05:39.57 | Legorol | even before you made the comment |
| 05:39.58 | JoshBorke | but NOO, i get lumped in with everyone else |
| 05:39.59 | Nom- | Because everyone does |
| 05:40.03 | Legorol | lol Nom- |
| 05:40.07 | Legorol | but you made the choices all the way |
| 05:40.13 | Karrion | no he didn't |
| 05:40.16 | Legorol | yet you ended with the number i told Cairenn even before we started |
| 05:40.16 | wobWork | No, Legorol made the choices =) |
| 05:40.18 | Legorol | hehe |
| 05:40.26 | wobWork | Now, if you were to do it with Nom and I |
| 05:40.26 | Cairenn | but *you* chose what to do with the group he chose in each case |
| 05:40.32 | wobWork | and I decide what to do with each group.... |
| 05:40.39 | Nom- | Yah, exactly |
| 05:40.46 | Legorol | bah, spoilsports |
| 05:40.47 | zenzelezz | I still have a suspicion that this is secretly about the quests o_O |
| 05:40.50 | wobWork | And -then- if the number turned out to be what you told Cair, then it'd be magic =) |
| 05:40.51 | Nom- | That's the other point...you could quite easily have gone the opposite way |
| 05:40.53 | Legorol | it's the best magic trick ever |
| 05:40.59 | Cairenn | lol zenzelezz |
| 05:41.00 | Legorol | you can amuse little kids with it so much |
| 05:41.06 | Nom- | If i'd reversed every choice, you could have just still thrown it away |
| 05:41.24 | wobWork | or spat it at Cairenn =) |
| 05:41.29 | Esamynn | there's a term for that trick ;) |
| 05:41.30 | Legorol | look, it's a harmless joke :D |
| 05:41.37 | Esamynn | it's called "Being led by the nose" |
| 05:41.42 | Legorol | i mean harmsless magic trick |
| 05:41.43 | Esamynn | 8) |
| 05:41.45 | JoshBorke | purl, hug Legorol |
| 05:41.47 | purl | ACTION hugs Legorol |
| 05:41.49 | Cairenn | :( people spitting at me :( |
| 05:41.53 | Esamynn | ~botsnack |
| 05:41.53 | purl | Esamynn: :) |
| 05:41.53 | Legorol | it works great on less educated groups of people than this :D |
| 05:41.56 | wobWork | 8c) |
| 05:42.30 | Legorol | anyway thanks for volunteering |
| 05:42.41 | Legorol | i should've chosen something other than 7 to make it a bit more interesting ;-) |
| 05:43.22 | JoshBorke | but you chose 7 because everyone chooses 7 =P |
| 05:43.40 | Cairenn | I'd never choose 7 |
| 05:44.21 | JoshBorke | as you've informed us =D |
| 05:44.22 | Sixen | What's all this 7 business.. |
| 05:44.25 | Nom- | Yah, it doesn't really matter tho |
| 05:44.44 | Nom- | Because with that kind of "trick" no matter what number I chose, you drive which way we go really |
| 05:44.49 | JoshBorke | every party needs a pooper that's why they invited you |
| 05:44.50 | zenzelezz | 7 secretly runs the world, in close cooperation with 6 |
| 05:44.54 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Nargiddley (n=narg@203-97-236-74.cable.telstraclear.net) |
| 05:44.59 | Cairenn | then the statement that "everyone chooses 7" is incorrect |
| 05:44.59 | wobWork | unless it's about random numbers |
| 05:45.03 | JoshBorke | i heard 8 was big brother |
| 05:45.05 | wobWork | Then it's 'nine' all the way |
| 05:45.22 | Sixen | Nah |
| 05:45.32 | Sixen | Sixen > Six |
| 05:45.34 | JoshBorke | 7 just gets blamed as the bad guy |
| 05:45.37 | Nom- | Ok, if I asked a random group of 100 people to chose a number between 1 and 10 (the first number that pops into their head) a disproportionate number of people would say 'seven' |
| 05:45.48 | Sixen | I would say 69 |
| 05:45.50 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 05:45.53 | Sixen | But, that's just me, =O |
| 05:45.57 | Cairenn | that isn't between 1-10 ;) |
| 05:46.04 | Nom- | The idea that everyone choses 7 has been drilled into the culture :) |
| 05:46.06 | Sixen | 6.9 |
| 05:46.09 | Sixen | :) |
| 05:46.17 | Nom- | Which rounds to 7 :) |
| 05:46.18 | Sixen | Which rounds up to 7 /cry |
| 05:46.19 | Sixen | lol |
| 05:46.23 | Cairenn | rofl |
| 05:46.35 | wobWork | http://www.nsftools.com/misc/DilbertRandom.gif |
| 05:46.58 | Sixen | Hahhaha! |
| 05:47.17 | bleetah | when people ask me to 'pick a number between 1 and 10', I invariable choose pi |
| 05:47.22 | bleetah | invariably |
| 05:47.24 | Esamynn | lol |
| 05:47.41 | bleetah | e is also a great number to choose |
| 05:47.45 | wobWork | why not 'e' |
| 05:47.50 | wobWork | hehe |
| 05:47.59 | wobWork | well everyone likes pi |
| 05:48.03 | bleetah | depends on the questioner's IQ, really, what I choose ;) |
| 05:48.09 | bleetah | that oo |
| 05:48.13 | wobWork | as long as you don't choose 'i' |
| 05:48.25 | Cairenn | I prefer Phi, but that's just me |
| 05:48.36 | wobWork | Phumpkin phi? |
| 05:48.40 | bleetah | anyways, it usually goes... 'think of a number between 1 and 10., multiple it by two' 'hang on, I'll be back in a few infinities' |
| 05:48.41 | Cairenn | It's one H of a lot cooler than Pi |
| 05:49.35 | wobWork | well |
| 05:49.37 | wobWork | 2pi |
| 05:49.39 | wobWork | duh |
| 05:49.55 | Nom- | or. 2(3.14159) |
| 05:50.00 | Nom- | sif calculate too many digits |
| 05:50.11 | *** join/#wowi-lounge PProvost (n=PProvost@pool-71-112-39-129.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 05:50.15 | wobWork | "So what do you get?" "oh... ((2pi/5)*7)/35)" |
| 05:50.19 | Sixen | Lawl |
| 05:50.52 | wobWork | which probably rounds to seven =P |
| 05:50.59 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:51.08 | Sixen | Actually... |
| 05:51.15 | Sixen | Lawl, just kidding, I have no idea, :( |
| 05:52.04 | Nom- | 0.25132741228718345907701147066236 |
| 05:52.07 | Nom- | Unless i'm mistaken |
| 05:52.36 | Karrion | looks right to 4dp |
| 05:53.13 | Sixen | ~0.2512 is what I got |
| 05:53.14 | purl | Sixen: okay |
| 05:53.23 | Sixen | Okay? |
| 05:53.25 | Nom- | purl: shhh |
| 05:53.27 | Sixen | o_O? |
| 05:54.03 | Cairenn | you just programmed purl |
| 05:54.03 | Sixen | All in my head? |
| 05:54.03 | Karrion | ~0.2512 |
| 05:54.14 | purl | somebody said 0.2512 was what I got |
| 05:54.14 | Cairenn | purl, forget 0.2512 |
| 05:54.14 | purl | Cairenn: i forgot 0.2512 |
| 05:54.14 | Sixen | O_O |
| 05:54.14 | Sixen | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:54.16 | bleetah | ~0 |
| 05:54.18 | purl | rumour has it, 0 is 1, or 0, or a number damnit!! |
| 05:54.18 | Sixen | ~0.2512 |
| 05:54.19 | Sixen | :O |
| 05:54.19 | Sixen | I'm confused. |
| 05:54.20 | Sixen | 04[10:53:15 PM] Sixen: 01~0.2512 is what I got |
| 05:54.38 | Nom- | purl: shhh |
| 05:54.39 | purl | Why should I. Freadom of speach god dammit! |
| 05:54.39 | wobWork | hehe |
| 05:54.42 | Cairenn | it's forgotten, don't program it back in :p |
| 05:54.43 | wobWork | poor purl |
| 05:54.44 | Sixen | Freedom* |
| 05:54.59 | Nom- | It's intentionally misspelt, damnit :P |
| 05:55.01 | wobWork | tilde is the purlbot trigger =) |
| 05:55.05 | Sixen | Misspelled* |
| 05:55.06 | Sixen | :) |
| 05:55.17 | Sixen | Purl is really a bot?o_O |
| 05:55.19 | wobWork | Aha! |
| 05:55.20 | wobWork | no |
| 05:55.23 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:55.24 | Sixen | wow |
| 05:55.25 | Sixen | wtf |
| 05:55.27 | Cairenn | ~purl |
| 05:55.28 | purl | extra, extra, read all about it, purl is an evil bot. rather slow at responding |
| 05:55.29 | Sixen | I'm confused /wrist |
| 05:55.29 | wobWork | Both spellings of mispelled is correct =) |
| 05:55.39 | Sixen | Is it? :( |
| 05:55.42 | wobWork | yeah |
| 05:55.46 | wobWork | it confused me too =P |
| 05:55.50 | Sixen | lol |
| 05:55.55 | Nom- | misspelt is valid |
| 05:55.58 | Nom- | *sheesh* |
| 05:56.36 | bleetah | enUS doesn't have the second spelling |
| 05:56.47 | *** join/#wowi-lounge chuckg_ (n=chuckg@66-237-5-116.starstream.net) |
| 05:56.50 | Nom- | misspelt or misspelled ? |
| 05:56.56 | bleetah | they're like that with a number of ed/t suffixes |
| 05:57.00 | Cairenn | that's because enUS is duh :p |
| 05:57.06 | bleetah | can never remember whic h one they don't use hehe |
| 05:57.06 | Guillotine | purl isn't a bot. purl is just a person with very generic responses |
| 05:57.07 | purl | okay, Guillotine |
| 05:57.07 | wobWork | misspell   Show phonetics |
| 05:57.07 | wobWork | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:57.15 | Sixen | LOL |
| 05:57.15 | Guillotine | whoops |
| 05:57.18 | Guillotine | didn't mean to teach that |
| 05:57.24 | Guillotine | I have no idea what I just taught it even o.O |
| 05:57.29 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:57.35 | bleetah | purl, forget isn't |
| 05:57.36 | purl | i didn't have anything called 'isn't' to forget, bleetah |
| 05:57.37 | Sixen | I'm so confused... =[ |
| 05:57.52 | bleetah | :/ |
| 05:57.54 | Nom- | purl: forget isn't a bot. purl |
| 05:57.54 | purl | Nom-: i forgot isn't a bot. purl |
| 05:57.56 | Sixen | purl, if you're real, sex me! =] |
| 05:58.00 | Sixen | AHA I KNEW IT. |
| 05:58.01 | Sixen | :O |
| 05:58.03 | wobWork | ~isn't |
| 05:58.20 | Nom- | it was 'isn't a bot. purl' that she learnt :) |
| 05:58.21 | Cairenn | lol, wanna put money on that Sixen? |
| 05:58.23 | Sixen | purl: hai2u |
| 05:58.25 | Cairenn | purl sucks |
| 05:58.26 | purl | only if you ask nicely and pay well. |
| 05:58.26 | Sixen | :o |
| 05:58.26 | Guillotine | purl, forget isn't a bot. purl |
| 05:58.26 | purl | Guillotine: i didn't have anything called 'isn't a bot. purl' to forget |
| 05:58.33 | Guillotine | alright, I have no idea |
| 05:58.51 | bleetah | Guillotine: nom made it forget earlier ;) |
| 05:58.54 | Sixen | Oh yeah Cairenn, I don't remember if you saw my post a while abck asking for iriel's e-mail, but Icongratulated you on getiting Special Thanks. |
| 05:59.04 | Guillotine | oh |
| 05:59.05 | Sixen | And i had so many typos right there.. |
| 05:59.07 | Esamynn | infinite loops are fun |
| 05:59.09 | Cairenn | no, I missed that |
| 05:59.11 | Sixen | Oh |
| 05:59.19 | Sixen | Well, Congratulations on getting Special Thanks on BC. |
| 05:59.20 | Cairenn | thank you :) |
| 05:59.22 | Sixen | ^_^ |
| 05:59.26 | Corrodias | well, i don't know why you couldn't reproduce it, Kemayo. |
| 05:59.29 | Esamynn | espcially when each loop consumes more and more memory ;) |
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| 06:00.47 | Corrodias | i could have SWORN ckknight was the one who uploaded it to whatchacallit, wowace |
| 06:01.16 | bleetah | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:01.19 | ckknight | I do the occasional tweaking to it |
| 06:01.39 | Cairenn | why were you wanting Iriel's email? |
| 06:01.52 | Sixen | Tee-hee. |
| 06:01.58 | bleetah | although I'm more partial to :(){ :|:& };: |
| 06:02.16 | Corrodias | i must have seen ckknight in the changelog and not realized he wasn't the only person writing to it |
| 06:02.22 | Corrodias | i'm a dunce |
| 06:02.58 | ckknight | we're reasonably communal with our code |
| 06:03.00 | ckknight | in a good way |
| 06:03.07 | Corrodias | and i'll admit, it doesn't necessarily have to be questsfu making my escape key irritating me, but it seems to be reasonably conincidental with quest updates. |
| 06:03.45 | Corrodias | on a side note, is there any way you could make it so we can lock the tracker in position without disabling mouse events on it, so we can click quests to open the details pane? |
| 06:04.12 | ckknight | no, Corrodias :-P |
| 06:04.39 | Corrodias | arr |
| 06:07.21 | Nom- | lol @ fork while fork |
| 06:07.26 | Nom- | way to crash a system :P |
| 06:08.03 | bleetah | the second one, the shell script, is also quite fun |
| 06:08.23 | *** part/#wowi-lounge Wing87 (n=Wing@c83-254-245-24.bredband.comhem.se) |
| 06:08.34 | bleetah | heya, it was Esamynn who mentioned infinite loops |
| 06:08.41 | bleetah | i blame him haha |
| 06:09.15 | Esamynn | my loop was a little more involved ;) |
| 06:09.26 | bleetah | well, it would be |
| 06:09.33 | bleetah | you and your bloatware! |
| 06:10.33 | Nom- | for anyone curious of the effects: |
| 06:10.34 | Nom- | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:10.46 | Nom- | It's a quality stress test of the computer :P |
| 06:10.58 | Sixen | Brb. |
| 06:11.16 | Nom- | btw, run that as root and you're royally fscked |
| 06:11.19 | bleetah | heh |
| 06:11.39 | Nom- | running that as root won't save any resources |
| 06:11.42 | Nom- | your system will basically die |
| 06:11.43 | bleetah | we'd do that kinda junk all the time to our servers, while removing half their hardware and hammering them with requests.. just to see if smoke would escape |
| 06:11.43 | LocutusOfNorg | nah - you just need a hundred or so dual-core processors |
| 06:11.59 | bleetah | or strictly enforced ulimits and crap like that |
| 06:12.16 | Thrae | What's a good place to browse new Outlands quests? |
| 06:12.17 | bleetah | LocutusOfNorg: that'll just slow down the inevitable |
| 06:12.32 | bleetah | s/slow down/delay/ |
| 06:12.45 | LocutusOfNorg | nah, some other bottleneck will kick it in the gob |
| 06:13.01 | bleetah | true |
| 06:13.21 | bleetah | yer system will still be largely fucked in one area, tho |
| 06:13.35 | bleetah | (assuming the above hasn't escaped totally) |
| 06:13.41 | bleetah | balls, I gtg... later |
| 06:13.49 | Cairenn | later bleetah |
| 06:14.00 | LocutusOfNorg | i'll tell balls next time i see him |
| 06:14.09 | LocutusOfNorg | drat |
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| 06:30.08 | Nom- | ballzack |
| 06:30.10 | Nom- | <-- bored |
| 06:32.37 | Karrion | night all |
| 06:32.51 | Cairenn | night Karrion |
| 06:33.52 | Kemayo | Corrodias: If you can work out a test-case to reliably reproduce your escape key problem, let me know and I'll be able to fix it. |
| 06:39.07 | Guillotine | alright, I'm off to bed. night all :) |
| 07:04.50 | MentalPower|WoW | gnight guys |
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| 07:07.27 | Cairenn | night MentalPower|ZZzz |
| 07:08.56 | *** join/#wowi-lounge wobin (n=wobin@218-214-59-86.people.net.au) |
| 07:16.15 | Cairenn | night all |
| 07:16.31 | Sixen | Night |
| 07:16.33 | Sixen | I'm out too. |
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| 07:24.47 | Corrodias | is there a way to tell which frame is going to receive my escape key press? |
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| 08:15.32 | Corrodias | is there a way to tell which frame is going to receive my escape key press? |
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| 08:40.52 | Nom- | oo did anyone notice that the XP Formula doesn't work in Outland ? |
| 08:40.56 | Nom- | MobXP = (charlvl*5) + 45, for a mob of the same level as the character |
| 08:41.16 | Nom- | My Mage was getting 1100xp per kill rested, and at least 500 normal |
| 08:41.44 | zenzelezz | I was never aware of the XP formula |
| 08:41.55 | Nom- | That works for 1-60 |
| 08:42.06 | Nom- | But in outland it's like an extra 10 or 20% |
| 08:42.27 | Nom- | closer to an extra 50% actually :/ |
| 08:42.54 | Nom- | Unless that was just a new thing they did for a little while |
| 08:42.59 | Mr_Rabies2 | i always thought it was based on the character's hp |
| 08:43.01 | Mr_Rabies2 | er mob's |
| 08:43.10 | zenzelezz | I didn't pay much attention while leveling, but the few times I did watch it seemed to always be about 500 xp unrested |
| 08:43.14 | Mr_Rabies2 | that seems to make the most sense to me |
| 08:43.32 | Mr_Rabies2 | because i remember killing these guys that are one shottable and only getting 300 or so exp rested |
| 08:43.33 | Nom- | nah, that formula work for Azeroth |
| 08:43.39 | Nom- | It's been Outland that's different |
| 08:44.01 | Nom- | Yeah, there are exceptions for squishy mobs |
| 08:44.02 | Mr_Rabies2 | whereas a normal hp mob is 1000+ rested for the most part |
| 08:44.26 | Nom- | for a "normal" mob tho, in Azeroth, that formula works perfectly |
| 08:44.48 | Nom- | I can just about guarantee, if I found a level 58 mob with my Paladin, i'd get 335xp from him |
| 08:45.01 | Nom- | But if I go to Outland, i'd get more |
| 08:45.18 | Nom- | anywho bbs, home time |
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| 09:14.40 | Elessdy | is there a way to tell which frame is going to receive my escape key press? is there a way to catch errors during logout and find out about them, since the UI is frozen/exiting at that time? |
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| 09:18.30 | Elkano | wrt the bugs: buggrabber/bugsack |
| 09:24.07 | Corrodias | buggrabber will give me a way to see the error even though the UI is shutting down? |
| 09:24.27 | Corrodias | does it write errors to a saved variable? |
| 09:36.17 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Nom_ (n=nom@standen.id.au) |
| 09:36.49 | Nom_ | power failures for the loss :( |
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| 10:06.12 | *** mode/#wowi-lounge [+v Kaelten] by ChanServ |
| 10:07.04 | Corrodias | QuestsFu_escapeDetector was IsShown() even though there was no reason questsfu should be getting an escape right now |
| 10:07.18 | Corrodias | after i pressed escape (at which point nothing visible happened), it was no longer IsShown(). |
| 10:07.53 | Corrodias | i deduced the frame name programatically, not showing any bias for questsfu |
| 10:08.55 | Corrodias | all i did between the last time it was not shown and the time it was shown was take the shatt portal to orgrimmar, which transitioned me through a loading screen. |
| 10:12.33 | Corrodias | it also IsShown() when i receive a new quest, which is put onto the tracker automatically as per my preferences |
| 10:21.46 | Corrodias | i seem to have fixed the problem, although because of my unfamiliarity with the questsfu code i could have caused others i don't yet see |
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| 11:58.34 | Wobin | Bah |
| 11:58.45 | Wobin | Is there an event thrown when you release to become a ghost? |
| 11:59.01 | Corrodias | that i don't know |
| 11:59.15 | Wobin | hehe |
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| 12:05.01 | [Ammo] | Wobin: PLAYER_GHOST and PLAYER_UNGHOST or something |
| 12:05.49 | Arelenda | Hey there, is anyone familiar with the Netherspite fight? I'm trying to code a boss mod for it, and he does some emote thing that appears in grey instead of the default color. My guess it is a new event, does anyone know what it is? |
| 12:05.50 | [Ammo] | oh player_dead and player_unghost |
| 12:06.04 | [Ammo] | CHAT_MSG_RAID_BOSS_EMOTE |
| 12:06.19 | [Ammo] | probably |
| 12:06.23 | Arelenda | ... |
| 12:06.32 | Arelenda | you are amazing. |
| 12:06.35 | Arelenda | I'll look into it. |
| 12:06.40 | [Ammo] | I'm author of BigWigs :p |
| 12:06.45 | [Ammo] | I know my boss events :) |
| 12:07.51 | Arelenda | oh, does bigwigs have a mod for netherspite yet? |
| 12:08.01 | Arelenda | I think it didn't in the version I examined |
| 12:08.05 | [Ammo] | nope |
| 12:08.17 | [Ammo] | Attumen.lua Curator.lua KarazhanBeta.lua Malchezaar.lua RomuloJulianne.lua Terestian.lua WizardofOz.lua |
| 12:08.20 | [Ammo] | BigWigs_Karazhan.toc Hyakiss.lua Maiden.lua Moroes.lua ShadeOfAran.lua TheBigBadWolf.lua |
| 12:08.23 | [Ammo] | is what we have now |
| 12:08.48 | Arelenda | *nod* I looked over it, BW definitely has the best coverage I've seen so far |
| 12:09.19 | [Ammo] | you're welcome to make a bigwigs module for netherspite, or if you have combatlogs/transcripts share those with us :) |
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| 12:09.40 | Arelenda | I was going to write it for LV, cause I'm familiar with its code |
| 12:09.54 | Arelenda | but I'll do a BW instead, can't be that hard. |
| 12:10.16 | [Ammo] | it's pretty easy |
| 12:10.26 | [Ammo] | just check out some of the other karazhan modules |
| 12:11.35 | Arelenda | most recent version is at wowace, I take it? |
| 12:12.05 | [Ammo] | wowace.com/files |
| 12:12.05 | [Ammo] | yeah |
| 12:12.10 | [Ammo] | or check it out from the svn |
| 12:12.27 | Arelenda | where's the svn? :) |
| 12:13.41 | [Ammo] | svn.wowace.com |
| 12:13.51 | [Ammo] | bigwigs: http://svn.wowace.com/wowace/trunk/BigWigs/ |
| 12:14.40 | Wobin | PLAYER_UNGHOST exists, but not PLAYER_GHOST |
| 12:14.57 | Corrodias | LEEEECHES |
| 12:15.05 | Corrodias | you're looking for a Release kind of event, eh? |
| 12:15.09 | [Ammo] | PLAYER_DEAD |
| 12:15.11 | [Ammo] | is the release event |
| 12:15.28 | Corrodias | then what's the player's actual death? |
| 12:15.29 | [Ammo] | or PLAYER_ALIVE |
| 12:15.30 | [Ammo] | hmm |
| 12:16.48 | [Ammo] | PLAYER_ALIVE fires: Releases from death to a graveyard. |
| 12:16.48 | Wobin | no |
| 12:16.48 | Wobin | PLAYER_DEAD is not the release event |
| 12:16.48 | Wobin | PLAYER_DEAD is the death event |
| 12:16.48 | Corrodias | "PLAYER_ALIVE" sounds more like it |
| 12:16.48 | Wobin | PLAYER_ALIVE is when you unghost =) |
| 12:16.51 | [Ammo] | wobin: not according to wowwiki |
| 12:17.17 | zenzelezz | PLAYER_DEAD_OR_GHOST exists, doesn't it? |
| 12:17.55 | Wobin | oh I see |
| 12:17.57 | Wobin | yeah |
| 12:18.02 | Wobin | Releases from death to a graveyard |
| 12:18.06 | Wobin | well that's easy then =) |
| 12:18.20 | Wobin | How confusing =P |
| 12:19.01 | Wobin | hm, and if you log out dead, and relogin, can you get to your corpse? |
| 12:21.40 | Corrodias | as far as i'm aware, it's permanent until you retrieve it |
| 12:21.49 | Corrodias | i've seen corpses linger for days |
| 12:21.57 | Corrodias | although i'm not sure what happens on a server reset. it might disappear, then. |
| 12:27.00 | Corrodias | i will talk to Kemayo when it is possible to do so |
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| 12:27.29 | Corrodias | or ckknight, if he has editing authority on questsfu |
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| 13:14.10 | Kaso | anyone know an aproximate date when 2.0.7 is going to be pushed to live? |
| 13:16.44 | Wobin | Odd |
| 13:16.56 | Wobin | PLAYER_ALIVE doesn't want to fire for the point of death =\ |
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| 13:19.09 | Wobin | ah |
| 13:19.15 | Wobin | no it's my code not waiting long enough |
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| 13:27.32 | tlund | Kaso: probably not tomorrow, unless there is some notice in hte forums yet? |
| 13:27.47 | tlund | Kaso: i would guess on one week from tomorrow, since its a pretty small bugfix patch. |
| 13:27.55 | Kaso | sounds reasonable |
| 14:00.18 | Wobin | Night all |
| 14:05.13 | Corrodias | GetChildren doesn't seem to just return a table of the child frames |
| 14:05.44 | Corrodias | or maybe it does and they're more complex than i think |
| 14:08.03 | Corrodias | Tablet20DetachedFrame3ScrollChild seems to have several buttons on it, but only one shows up when i call GetChildren() |
| 14:09.56 | zenzelezz | http://www.wowwiki.com/API_Frame_GetChildren doesn't help? |
| 14:10.55 | Corrodias | not a lot |
| 14:11.08 | Corrodias | GetChildren() doesn't seem to be returning a table of children, but rather just the first child itself |
| 14:12.06 | Corrodias | from what i can tell |
| 14:12.31 | Corrodias | /dump bob:GetChildren():GetChildren():GetChildren():GetName() == "Tablet20Button5" |
| 14:13.01 | Corrodias | in each case, it's returning a single child frame, which i can call the function on again |
| 14:15.15 | Corrodias | not a table of frames at all |
| 14:15.31 | Corrodias | it's only complicated by how frames are tables |
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| 14:16.31 | JoshBorke | Corrodias: it returns a list, not a table |
| 14:16.46 | JoshBorke | Corrodias: if you want a table, do myTbl = { frame:GetChildren() } |
| 14:17.16 | Corrodias | list? |
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| 14:17.39 | Corrodias | i didn't know lua has lists |
| 14:17.58 | JoshBorke | well, maybe not exactly a list, but like a list |
| 14:18.05 | JoshBorke | a multi-return variable |
| 14:18.18 | Corrodias | i see |
| 14:18.21 | Corrodias | thanks so much |
| 14:20.03 | Corrodias | but ipairs(framename:GetChildren()) works to iterate across the values? |
| 14:27.16 | Corrodias | yeah, it works much better when i know how to turn the return of getchildren into a table :D |
| 14:34.29 | Corrodias | hmm. clicking on an item to show the details pane re-registers it all for the drag again |
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| 14:57.41 | Cairenn|afk | With Turbine having lifted the NDA for Lord of the Rings Online today, we are happy to be able to announce that LotROInterface.com is now live. |
| 14:59.49 | Thunder_Child | you know, i really didnt enjoy that beta...it made my computer cry |
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| 15:00.20 | Mikma | SS or it didn't happen |
| 15:01.13 | Cairenn|afk | Thunder_Child: which version of Beta? |
| 15:03.49 | Corrodias | now i'm trying to make ImprovedErrorFrame save its error list as a savedvariable so i can see what error is happening during logout. so far i'm just getting "nil" |
| 15:04.19 | Thunder_Child | i dont know, whichever one started on nov 30 |
| 15:05.42 | Thunder_Child | i pleyed a couple of days and stoped, my comp couldnt handle it |
| 15:05.42 | Cairenn|afk | ah, well, it's better :) |
| 15:05.43 | Cairenn|afk | <== has SOOOOO been having a blast with it :) |
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| 15:05.46 | Thunder_Child | well thats good |
| 15:06.06 | Corrodias | so what horrible secrets have you been holding that would have ruined the public perception of the game? |
| 15:06.21 | Cairenn|afk | although the few people that knew I was in CB were having a fun laughing at me :p |
| 15:06.45 | Thunder_Child | did they really need a reason? |
| 15:06.46 | Cairenn|afk | they thought it incredibly funny to find the one thing that was *really* bringing out the geek in me |
| 15:07.17 | Cairenn|afk | listening to me almost creaming my jeans when I got to meet Strider, etc |
| 15:07.20 | Bouvi | Have not played it myself. Too busy grinding to 70 in my limited free time. |
| 15:08.07 | Thunder_Child | did you win any of the prizes? |
| 15:09.42 | Corrodias | fantastic, now there's an error on login, too |
| 15:11.14 | Corrodias | i'm just making things worse! >_< |
| 15:15.17 | Thunder_Child | going to work now. be back in 45 min |
| 15:15.54 | Bouvi | Short work day |
| 15:16.19 | Thunder_Child | errr...i meant i would be back on in 45 min |
| 15:18.00 | Bouvi | lol |
| 15:18.17 | Bouvi | I would love a 45 min work day today. I would be home now leveling |
| 15:18.39 | Corrodias | a HA. it's a clique/dongle error |
| 15:19.23 | Corrodias | the stack trace seems to be rather lacking, but it's a start |
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| 16:02.30 | Mr_Rabies2 | http://www.blizzard.com/wow/screenshot.aspx?ImageIndex=128&Set=64 |
| 16:02.35 | Mr_Rabies2 | blahahahhaha |
| 16:03.00 | Industrial | lol |
| 16:03.35 | Industrial | i love deadmines :) |
| 16:05.14 | Cairenn|afk | lol |
| 16:06.13 | *** join/#wowi-lounge TC_Working (n=Thunder_@NOC-004.sylmark.com) |
| 16:06.33 | TC_Working | hmm...maybe just a tad longer than 45 min |
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| 16:23.37 | TC_Working | yea no kidding |
| 16:24.15 | Cairenn|afk | but since it's all set now and the various announcements have all been posted etc ... /fall down |
| 16:24.22 | JoshBorke | ~emulate JoshBorke |
| 16:24.33 | purl | ACTION hugs Cairenn |
| 16:24.33 | Cairenn|afk | purl, hug JoshBorke |
| 16:24.35 | purl | ACTION sneaks up on JoshBorke and suddenly hugs JoshBorke tightly |
| 16:24.43 | JoshBorke | purl, hug Cairenn|afk |
| 16:24.44 | purl | ACTION hugs Cairenn|afk |
| 16:24.49 | JoshBorke | morning cair, you should go take a nap :-) |
| 16:25.25 | Cairenn|afk | that was the discussion - I just said I was about to, and others were saying how they wish they could |
| 16:26.27 | jaxdahl | lotroi? |
| 16:26.41 | cogwheel|work | jaxdahl: as opposed to wowi... |
| 16:26.41 | Xuerian | Lord of the Rings something something something. |
| 16:26.42 | Cairenn|afk | Lord of the Rings Online |
| 16:26.48 | Xuerian | Or just something. |
| 16:26.51 | Cairenn|afk | http://www.lotrointerface.com/index.php |
| 16:27.12 | Mikma | "Sorry, Lord of The Rings Online is currently still under NDA. Once open beta starts we will open this area." :( |
| 16:27.30 | Cairenn|afk | *blink* |
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| 16:27.48 | Cairenn|afk | you shouldn't be getting that |
| 16:27.53 | Elkano | lotroi sounds like a misspelled lotrui |
| 16:28.06 | Mikma | Cairenn|afk: but i am *sob* |
| 16:28.08 | Mikma | fix iiiiit! |
| 16:28.15 | Mikma | picklepicklepickle |
| 16:28.23 | Cairenn|afk | http://www.lotrointerface.com |
| 16:28.29 | zenzelezz | I am not seeing the error |
| 16:28.54 | JoshBorke | anyone that can recommend a good hud? |
| 16:29.07 | TC_Working | one that works |
| 16:29.18 | Mikma | Cairenn|afk: yeah but click Downloads |
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| 16:29.44 | TC_Working | looks like no sleep for Cairenn yet |
| 16:29.51 | Cairenn|afk | works for me ... someone else? |
| 16:29.59 | TC_Working | i getr the msg as well |
| 16:30.02 | TC_Working | get* |
| 16:30.04 | Cairenn|afk | ugh ugh ugh |
| 16:30.05 | jaxdahl | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:30.14 | Cairenn|afk | hokay |
| 16:30.19 | Cairenn|afk | dolby-wowi! |
| 16:30.22 | zenzelezz | Cairenn|afk: like I said, I'm not seeing an error |
| 16:30.34 | Cairenn|afk | zenzelezz: can you get to the download area? |
| 16:30.36 | cogwheel|work | zenzelezz: click on downloads |
| 16:31.34 | TC_Working | and your privacy statement is a 404 |
| 16:31.37 | TC_Working | http://www.lotrointerface.com/forums/http://www.ogaming.com/data/3190%7EPrivacy.php |
| 16:31.58 | Cairenn|afk | ewww, why the hell is it linking to that? |
| 16:32.01 | Cairenn|afk | blech! |
| 16:32.14 | zenzelezz | I see, I only tried the forum links... downloads does give the weird message |
| 16:32.19 | Cairenn|afk | (or rather, not linking to that ;) ) |
| 16:32.21 | Xuerian | purl, comfort Cairenn|afk |
| 16:32.23 | purl | There, there, Cairenn|afk. It's OK. I'm here for you. |
| 16:33.12 | JoshBorke | purl, hug Cairenn|afk |
| 16:33.13 | purl | ACTION sneaks up on Cairenn|afk and suddenly hugs Cairenn|afk tightly |
| 16:33.45 | Cairenn|afk | dolby-wowi, dolby-wowi, dolby-wowi |
| 16:33.54 | Cairenn|afk | (he's SO gonna kill me for spamming him ;) ) |
| 16:34.23 | Cairenn|afk | would one of you try registering, please? |
| 16:34.34 | Cairenn|afk | and then see if you can see the download area? |
| 16:36.24 | JoshBorke | still doesn't let me, says something about NDA |
| 16:36.25 | TC_Working | no still not |
| 16:36.53 | TC_Working | neither will searching |
| 16:36.55 | TC_Working | same error |
| 16:37.40 | TC_Working | well searching thorugh Downloads that is |
| 16:38.46 | Cairenn|afk | blah! |
| 16:39.22 | Cairenn|afk | ah ha! |
| 16:39.37 | JoshBorke | ha ah! |
| 16:40.43 | TC_Working | http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/upload-update.php? & http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/filecpl.php?action=favorite also...looks like quite a few links need to be updated |
| 16:41.14 | Cairenn|afk | try now |
| 16:41.19 | TC_Working | bingo |
| 16:41.55 | TC_Working | seems to all be working now |
| 16:42.14 | Cairenn|afk | hah! I figurededed it out! |
| 16:42.26 | TC_Working | http://faq.lotrointerface.com/ is no good |
| 16:43.32 | Cairenn|afk | there's nothing there yet anyway, really (other than the standard vB FAQ), so no big deal on that one just yet |
| 16:43.41 | Cairenn|afk | but thank you :) |
| 16:43.46 | sysrage | sex with monsters! |
| 16:43.49 | TC_Working | welcome |
| 16:44.02 | TC_Working | i so enjoy shooting holes in others accomplishments |
| 16:44.08 | Cairenn|afk | finding broken links is a helpful |
| 16:44.45 | TC_Working | so then it's just the privacy statement left the |
| 16:44.54 | TC_Working | s/the/then/ |
| 16:44.59 | TC_Working | .... |
| 16:45.13 | Cairenn|afk | lol |
| 16:45.14 | sysrage | hah |
| 16:47.23 | JoshBorke | bb |
| 16:47.24 | *** part/#wowi-lounge JoshBorke (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu) |
| 16:51.12 | Cairenn|afk | okay, now I *am* going to go fall down again for a couple hours - NO more pinging me with bugs for 2 minutes until I actually have enough time to run away from the computer so I don't hear the ping ;) |
| 16:51.44 | TC_Working | lol, thats just an invitation for us to ping you |
| 16:52.08 | Cairenn|afk | too late! *runs* |
| 16:54.05 | TC_Working | ~ping |
| 16:54.10 | purl | pong |
| 16:54.30 | TC_Working | ~ping TC_Working |
| 16:54.33 | purl | pong TC_Working |
| 16:54.44 | TC_Working | ....bleh |
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| 17:25.28 | TC_Working | "I AM THE WHALE PENIS OF SARCASIM!" |
| 17:26.47 | Xuerian | .... |
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| 17:31.19 | sysrage | o_O |
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| 18:26.28 | Kaso | is wow lua 5.1 exactly, or lua 5.1.1 ? |
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| 19:01.47 | Tierrie|Work | 5.1 |
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| 19:14.55 | TC_Working | how was your nap Cairenn? |
| 19:15.03 | Cairenn | not bad |
| 19:15.12 | TC_Working | feel any better? |
| 19:15.53 | Cairenn | a bit |
| 19:16.35 | Bouvi | I want to take a nap |
| 19:28.03 | Cairenn | Given the mood I woke up in, I think I should probably go back to bed before I kill someone >< |
| 19:28.03 | TC_Working | ah...a fun mood |
| 19:28.21 | Cairenn | (hence the previous rather curt responses) |
| 19:34.37 | Mr_Rabies2 | hrm, how long have diminishing returns been applying to mobs too? |
| 19:36.19 | Tierrie|Work | oh gnoz:( |
| 19:36.22 | Tierrie|Work | sad cairenn |
| 19:36.27 | Tierrie|Work | huggles? |
| 19:36.54 | Cairenn | meh, I'm okay, just was kinda cranky after seeing a couple things |
| 19:37.05 | Cairenn | but I almost never say no to hugs :) |
| 19:37.06 | Tierrie|Work | angry cairenn >_< |
| 19:37.52 | Cairenn | :) |
| 19:38.37 | Bouvi | If I need to beat up someone just say the word. [hug] |
| 19:38.56 | Tierrie|Work | V day in two days! Got someone Cai? |
| 19:39.34 | Cairenn | no one close, nope |
| 19:40.10 | Tierrie|Work | I will txt you a <3 on wowi on v day |
| 19:40.28 | Cairenn | heh, thanks :) |
| 19:40.33 | Tierrie|Work | and we can pretend to be prepubescent teens |
| 19:40.40 | Tierrie|Work | and giggle n shit |
| 19:40.48 | Tierrie|Work | tee hee |
| 19:41.10 | Cairenn | lol |
| 19:41.48 | TC_Working | no such thing anymore |
| 19:41.49 | Mr_Rabies2 | some guy found some Street Fighter Valentines from 1994 in his closet |
| 19:41.57 | Mr_Rabies2 | on a forum i go to |
| 19:42.06 | Mr_Rabies2 | he's gonna use em |
| 19:42.20 | Tierrie|Work | whats that |
| 19:43.01 | Mr_Rabies2 | http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2324931 |
| 19:43.04 | Cairenn | lol |
| 19:43.48 | Mr_Rabies2 | chun li's face frightens me beyond words |
| 19:44.10 | Mr_Rabies2 | it's like an orc with some asian stereotypes thrown in |
| 19:44.28 | Tierrie|Work | Chun-li is a dude in that picture. <-- truth |
| 19:45.21 | Cairenn | those are cute |
| 19:47.26 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kaso (n=Kaso@resnet01.nat.lancs.ac.uk) |
| 19:49.25 | Bouvi | The green guy looks like he is constipated. |
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| 19:50.58 | Mr_Rabies2 | that's blanka for you |
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| 19:52.15 | Bouvi | Yeah all this Street Fighter stuff happened after college so I never got into it much |
| 19:52.50 | Mr_Rabies2 | i grew up to street fighter and mortal kombat |
| 19:53.08 | Mr_Rabies2 | but after guilty gear i can't play either anymore, far too slow :[ |
| 19:53.29 | Bouvi | I grew up with Pong |
| 19:54.06 | Tierrie|Work | i went from sf2 to mortal kombat to sf3 to killer instinct to sf3:III |
| 19:54.15 | Tierrie|Work | killer instinct was the nuts |
| 19:54.58 | Mr_Rabies2 | hahaha yes killer instinct |
| 19:55.19 | Mr_Rabies2 | c-c-c-c-c--c-cmbo brkrrrr |
| 19:55.55 | Mr_Rabies2 | still i can't play any of those after guilty gear :[ |
| 19:56.04 | Mr_Rabies2 | it's just so fast paced and smooth compared to those |
| 19:56.06 | Tierrie|Work | http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/02/10/weekinreview/20070211_BLAME_GRAPHIC.html <-- haha |
| 19:56.12 | Tierrie|Work | they should make a graphic like that every week |
| 19:56.19 | Bouvi | I went from nothing to Pong to Space Invaders to Donkey Kong |
| 19:57.12 | Mr_Rabies2 | hell i had an atari before i was born :p |
| 19:57.51 | Mr_Rabies2 | i played frogger, pong, breakout, mario bros, empire strikes back, and the like, before i could even speak :p |
| 19:58.11 | Tierrie|Work | when i was a kid i didn't have video games |
| 19:58.14 | Mr_Rabies2 | and ET :ugh: |
| 19:58.18 | Tierrie|Work | well i did, like karateka |
| 19:58.37 | Tierrie|Work | i never played a console game till much later, my parents refused to buy me something that was non utility |
| 19:58.46 | Tierrie|Work | "a machine that just plays games?! hell no" |
| 19:58.53 | Tierrie|Work | so I only played apple II games |
| 19:59.00 | Tierrie|Work | digdug, burger time, karateka |
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| 19:59.29 | Xuerian | The first mario bro's on the nes.... Metroid on the nes... Digdug, choplifter, jupiter lander... Gauntlet |
| 19:59.33 | Bouvi | I remember when VCRs came out. We spent alot of money on one. Dad had trouble hooking it up. No nice audio video jacks back then |
| 19:59.39 | Mr_Rabies2 | i'm terrible at digdug |
| 19:59.51 | Mr_Rabies2 | i'm okay at burger time/tapper |
| 20:00.26 | Mr_Rabies2 | i was playing Root beer Tapper on Xbox Live Arcade the other day, i'm still not half bad :D |
| 20:01.20 | Tierrie|Work | i remember tapper |
| 20:01.27 | Tierrie|Work | i always thought they were serving beer |
| 20:02.15 | Mr_Rabies2 | the old version was |
| 20:02.24 | Mr_Rabies2 | had a budweiser sign in the background if i recall |
| 20:02.38 | Mr_Rabies2 | then they released root beer tapper which changed the bud sign to ROOT BEER |
| 20:04.28 | Xuerian | yay nerfing. |
| 20:05.24 | Tierrie|Work | first instance of a nerf ever! |
| 20:05.42 | Xuerian | haha. |
| 20:07.28 | Bouvi | Dragon's Lair now that was a game. |
| 20:07.42 | sysrage | TW2002 |
| 20:07.46 | Tierrie|Work | i remmeber black cauldron and kings quest |
| 20:07.53 | Tierrie|Work | i sucked really badly at adventure games |
| 20:08.01 | Tierrie|Work | really really badly |
| 20:08.10 | sysrage | kings/heros quest rocked |
| 20:08.17 | Bouvi | Zork for the win! |
| 20:11.58 | Xuerian | haha. Played Zork. |
| 20:12.07 | *** join/#wowi-lounge JoshBorke (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu) |
| 20:15.11 | TC_Working | monkey island |
| 20:15.21 | Xuerian | Jetpack :P |
| 20:15.36 | TC_Working | ...the moon lander one.... |
| 20:16.42 | Xuerian | Was that the one with limited fuel? |
| 20:16.42 | TC_Working | yea |
| 20:16.42 | Xuerian | gaaah |
| 20:16.42 | TC_Working | that was great |
| 20:16.43 | Tem | hahahahahahahahaha |
| 20:16.43 | Tem | http://imagelink.org/temp/467 |
| 20:16.43 | TC_Working | heh |
| 20:16.46 | JoshBorke | purl, hug Cairenn |
| 20:16.48 | purl | ACTION sneaks up on Cairenn and suddenly hugs Cairenn tightly |
| 20:16.54 | Cairenn | :) |
| 20:17.57 | Mikma | purl: make up Cairenn |
| 20:17.59 | purl | make: *** No rule to make target `up Cairenn'. Stop. |
| 20:18.07 | Mikma | hehe |
| 20:18.12 | TC_Working | http://www.frontiernet.net/~imaging/lunar_lander_game.html |
| 20:19.45 | Xuerian | haha |
| 20:20.15 | Xuerian | hm |
| 20:20.20 | Xuerian | There appears to be a wall at the end... |
| 20:20.23 | Xuerian | XD |
| 20:21.00 | TC_Working | so i saw |
| 20:22.30 | Xuerian | This isn't the one I was thinking of... One I was thinking of had big maps and really long drops, and a rather small fuel tank <.< |
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| 20:23.15 | JoshBorke | motherload? |
| 20:23.32 | Xuerian | I'm fairly sure it was Jupiter Lander... But it's been ~14 years |
| 20:25.16 | Mikma | Xuerian: yeah i hit the wall wsith full speed |
| 20:25.25 | Xuerian | Haha, so did I |
| 20:26.33 | TC_Working | guess why that is NOT the objective |
| 20:26.41 | Bouvi | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info6311-MazzleUI.html |
| 20:26.51 | Bouvi | Wrong URL |
| 20:27.00 | Bouvi | http://www.homecomputermuseum.de/game/spiele/78.gif |
| 20:27.03 | Xuerian | lol, tc. |
| 20:27.25 | TC_Working | yea Bouvi, that looks more original |
| 20:27.33 | Xuerian | That does look a little more like it :P |
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| 20:28.38 | Xuerian | http://www.homecomputermuseum.de/cgi-bin/forum/start.pl - Haha. That prompt XD |
| 20:29.34 | Bouvi | http://www.atariage.com/features/shows/houston2004/houston2004-Images/19.jpg |
| 20:29.56 | Bouvi | Check out the controls lol |
| 20:30.06 | TC_Working | hmm..i dont ever remeber playing it in an arcade |
| 20:30.49 | Xuerian | lol |
| 20:31.19 | Bouvi | I remember standing in line to play that. |
| 20:31.34 | TC_Working | hmm..it's interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Lander |
| 20:31.38 | Bouvi | Anbd Gorf, Galaxa and more |
| 20:33.39 | Bouvi | You guys know Space Invaders used to be B&W right? |
| 20:34.46 | Bouvi | http://www.atariage.com/features/shows/houston2004/houston2004-Images/19.jpg |
| 20:34.49 | Bouvi | Dang it |
| 20:34.55 | Bouvi | http://www.galaxian.dds.nl/pics/space-invaders.gif |
| 20:35.43 | Xuerian | hahah, yeah, I remember that |
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| 22:54.11 | Mobeater | afternoon everyone |
| 22:54.31 | TC_Working | hello Mobeater |
| 22:54.39 | Mobeater | just installed linux and making sure bitchX is working right :p |
| 22:54.59 | Mobeater | been a while since I have used linux, so givin it a go again :) |
| 22:57.24 | JoshBorke | hola |
| 23:10.48 | Corrodias | mobeater is making linux his bitchx |
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| 23:11.59 | JoshBorke | Corrodias is lame |
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| 23:13.12 | TC_Working | i dunno about Corrodias, but that comment was |
| 23:20.58 | JoshBorke | bah! |
| 23:21.04 | JoshBorke | where's a wowi admin when you need her :-P |
| 23:21.54 | JoshBorke | that's kinda weird |
| 23:22.05 | JoshBorke | says a mod is waiting to be approved |
| 23:22.09 | JoshBorke | but only when i try to download it |
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| 23:54.04 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Benjamin (n=chatzill@64.107.133.125) |
| 23:54.11 | Benjamin | anyone here? |
| 23:54.21 | TC_Working | nope |
| 23:54.28 | Benjamin | lol |
| 23:55.07 | Benjamin | got a question does anyone know how i search through my bank default slots (not the bags but jsut the default bank)? |
| 23:55.51 | TC_Working | have you browsed through wowwiki.com? |
| 23:56.13 | TC_Working | or taken apart a mod that already does that? |
| 23:56.32 | TC_Working | since i cant help you, those are the only suggestions i have |
| 23:56.50 | Benjamin | tried to got a little bit confused and wowwiki dint really mention anything as far as i found |
| 23:57.20 | Benjamin | i figured out how to search thru my bags the banks bags but not the original bank slots /sigh |
| 23:57.37 | Karrion | Benjamin: for i=1,24 do itemLink = GetContainerItemLink(BANK_CONTAINER, i); ... |
| 23:57.56 | Karrion | *note: that's taken from some old code I had lying around |
| 23:58.13 | Karrion | the "24" is probably wrong now since they expanded the bank in 2.0 |
| 23:58.13 | Benjamin | sweet i'll give it a try thanks |
| 23:59.07 | Karrion | presumably it should be 28 or however many slots there are now |
