irclog2html for #wowi-lounge on 20061111

`00:02.33`	`Tuller`	`you break them?`
`00:06.35`	`cogwheel`	`apparently...`
`00:06.52`	`Maldivia`	`cogwheel: you know... you break it, you buy it.`
`00:07.12`	`cogwheel`	`yep... i'm on a $15/mo payment plan XD`
`00:19.12`	`teomyr`	`mage class call is very bad in phase 3 sigh`
`00:19.47`	`Maldivia`	`not really`
`00:20.13`	`Maldivia`	`phase 3 is so short`
`00:20.17`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphen (n=masked@c-71-227-151-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net)`
`00:20.45`	`cladhaire`	`warlocks ftw then =)`
`00:21.10`	`Maldivia`	`shaman call can be worse :)`
`00:21.18`	`Amadeo`	`I don't even know what class calls are`
`00:21.31`	`Maldivia`	`Amadeo: boss ability at Nefarian`
`00:21.33`	`haste`	`Maldivia: warrior call is pretty evil also`
`00:21.33`	`teomyr`	`well, we don't have to care about shamans ;)`
`00:21.38`	`haste`	`same with priest :D`
`00:21.46`	`haste`	`and shaman call isn't evil in phase 3`
`00:21.49`	`Amadeo`	`Maldivia: What's it do?`
`00:21.50`	`teomyr`	`yes, warrior call just wiped us :(`
`00:22.01`	`haste`	`Amadeo: it drains around 3500 mana from every shaman`
`00:22.11`	`Amadeo`	`Oh, and it changes per class?`
`00:22.17`	`Maldivia`	`haste: all the skeletons get the buffs from the totems`
`00:22.23`	`haste`	`Maldivia: nope`
`00:22.29`	`Maldivia`	`ohh, they fixed that?`
`00:22.57`	`haste`	`it never was like that afaik`
`00:23.00`	`Maldivia`	`well, it was last time I tried Nef on a horde... LONG time ago though`
`00:23.01`	`haste`	`we always go into phase 3 during shaman/warlock/hunter/druid call`
`00:23.15`	`haste`	`totems have NEVER buffed nef or his foes`
`00:23.30`	`haste`	`the totems do buff each other tho'`
`00:23.46`	`Maldivia`	`hunter, rogue, paladin are the best phase 3 calls`
`00:24.06`	`haste`	`oh, add rogue to my list :D`
`00:25.41`	`Maldivia`	`haste: well, only played nef on a friends horde char, normally play alliance...`
`00:26.01`	`Maldivia`	`but just looked it up on wowwiki, and according to that, nef and skeletons recieve totem buffs..`
`00:26.20`	`zenzelezz`	`how bad warrior call is depends pretty much on how many healers you have (alive)`
`00:26.50`	`Shadowed`	`Warrior call can be pretty bad regardless of how many healers you have alive`
`00:27.00`	`Maldivia`	`worst combo is mage call, MT getting polymorphed and then fear hits at the exact same time`
`00:27.28`	`Maldivia`	`and then nef turns and shadow flames the raid`
`00:27.30`	`nevcairiel`	`plus shadowflame`
`00:27.30`	`Shadowed`	`i'd consider warrior to be the worst really`
`00:27.31`	`nevcairiel`	`:)`
`00:27.35`	`zenzelezz`	`can be, but we usually survive warrior call unless we're low on healers`
`00:27.46`	`nevcairiel`	`warrior call isnt that bad`
`00:28.08`	`Shadowed`	`if you're the typical guild who isn't in full wrath ect, it can be an issue with bad luck`
`00:28.12`	`Maldivia`	`true, they take 20% more damage, but that's shoulnd't be a problem`
`00:28.33`	`Tain`	`My favorite is Rogue call when he ports the Rogues right behind him.`
`00:28.35`	`zenzelezz`	`true, it depends a bit on gear and such`
`00:28.46`	`Shadowed`	`shadowflame + crit + some other bad luck`
`00:28.49`	`Maldivia`	`Tain: you mean, the 99% of the rogue calls :)`
`00:29.12`	`zenzelezz`	`my guild might be dropping BWL soon... focusing on Naxx until BC`
`00:29.27`	`Maldivia`	`my current guild just started AQ40 :)`
`00:29.31`	`Tain`	`Naah its only been about half the Rogue calls on my raids.`
`00:29.50`	`Shadowed`	`we've mostly dropped BWL, which sucks because i still need a LGG`
`00:30.02`	`Maldivia`	`Tain: ohh... I've seen less than 5 rogue calls, in my times with nef, where the rogues actually ended up infront of him`
`00:30.06`	`zenzelezz`	`on a good day we do AQ40 up to and including twins, but we haven't taken C'thun (reached phase 2), but stopped trying in favor of Naxx`
`00:31.02`	`Xuerian`	`Random question.. <.<... What was the browser included with Mac OS9?`
`00:31.08`	`Tain`	`Safari`
`00:31.09`	`zenzelezz`	`we only go BWL when we've got an unbalanced raid for AQ40/Naxx, and only since a few of us "new guys" (brought in during the summer shortage when people were away) still could use some items there`
`00:31.19`	`Tain`	`Oh OS9. hah`
`00:31.20`	`Xuerian`	`thanks, Tain. :)`
`00:31.32`	`Tain`	`I don't even know if that's right then.`
`00:31.34`	`Xuerian`	`No? >.>`
`00:31.49`	`Xuerian`	`doh v.v`
`00:32.30`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge thezanke (i=TheZanke@74.132.74.199)`
`00:35.49`	`thezanke`	`heya kaso`
`00:40.05`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge fathom (n=fathom@ip70-189-112-158.ok.ok.cox.net)`
`00:42.03`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Could I get a ginvite to US-A? My main has arrived :)`
`00:52.26`	`zenzelezz`	`you mean the guild on alliance, US beta server?`
`00:53.03`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kirkburn (n=Kirkburn@82-32-40-219.cable.ubr06.azte.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`00:53.14`	`ScytheBlade1`	`You'd be correct`
`00:53.16`	`deci`	`no he means he passed the citizenship test`
`00:53.33`	`zenzelezz`	`would be easiest to try /who CastSpell and ask I think`
`00:53.42`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I did`
`00:53.46`	`ScytheBlade1`	`The only person on has no ginvite privs`
`00:53.47`	`Cairenn`	`anyone can invite ... no one on?`
`00:53.57`	`Kirkburn`	`Hello`
`00:53.58`	`Cairenn`	`should have ...`
`00:54.02`	`Cairenn`	`hi Kirkburn`
`00:54.03`	`Kirkburn`	`I think I can invite for EU?`
`00:54.07`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Cairenn, well, I asked, and that's what he responded with :)`
`00:54.11`	`Cairenn`	`logging in ScytheBlade1`
`00:54.12`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Outfitter guy, name of Ocha`
`00:54.13`	`ScytheBlade1`	`ty`
`00:54.29`	`Cairenn`	`name?`
`00:54.33`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Sboo`
`00:54.36`	`Cairenn`	`k`
`00:54.38`	`Kirkburn`	`Ach, it's hard to tell who's EU and who isn't these days :P`
`00:54.43`	`Cairenn`	`hehehe, yeah`
`00:54.43`	`ScytheBlade1`	`(Was Sbo.. stupid rename)`
`00:54.55`	`Cairenn`	`love this channel, because it's international :)`
`00:55.01`	`deci`	`agreed`
`00:55.06`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Mike-N-Go (n=Mike@64.193.93.197)`
`00:55.16`	`Kirkburn`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:55.18`	`zenzelezz`	`Kirkburn: if you'd not arrived mid-conversation it would be easy, as he was quite specific`
`00:55.19`	`deci`	`we're one big happy dysfunctional family in my eyes`
`00:55.35`	`Kirkburn`	`lol`
`00:55.41`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Mike-N-Go (n=Mike@64.193.93.197)`
`00:55.58`	`zenzelezz`	`we're not dysfunctional, we just work differently from everyone else`
`00:56.40`	`Kirkburn`	`We're 'special' :)`
`00:57.19`	`zenzelezz`	`[nodrop] [unique] [special]`
`00:57.39`	`deci`	`i was an agent`
`00:57.47`	`zenzelezz`	`fixer`
`00:58.02`	`deci`	`LF FGrid`
`00:58.03`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=tardmrr@ip68-227-128-41.br.br.cox.net)`
`00:58.11`	`ScytheBlade1`	`ty Cair`
`00:58.12`	`zenzelezz`	`NCU/GSF/HOT plz`
`00:58.16`	`deci`	`haha`
`01:00.36`	`JoshBork1`	`ok back!`
`01:00.42`	`JoshBork1`	`woohoo for roomies!`
`01:00.59`	`JoshBork1`	`Mike-N-Go: you still here?`
`01:01.13`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~botsnack`
`01:01.13`	`purl`	`aw, gee, Mike-N-Go`
`01:01.22`	`JoshBork1`	`what's up?`
`01:01.22`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Yup.`
`01:01.35`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Esamynn is assisting me.`
`01:01.44`	`JoshBork1`	`you getting things working?`
`01:01.58`	`Mike-N-Go`	`It is working more better, but not fully :)`
`01:02.33`	`JoshBork1`	`did the code i give you work?`
`01:03.05`	`Mike-N-Go`	`It is helping.`
`01:03.23`	`JoshBork1`	`glad to hear it :-)`
`01:03.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Now, it does not give errors from inside your block :D`
`01:03.54`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I still have some nil value on GetServerInfo() and UnitFaction()`
`01:04.31`	`JoshBork1`	`unit faction should work fine`
`01:05.12`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Well, it is on the same line, so I just guess.`
`01:05.29`	`JoshBork1`	`you should really tell us exactly what the error is :_)`
`01:06.00`	`Esamynn`	`Mike-N-Go: if you'd post up the newest version I told you I'd take another look ;)`
`01:06.16`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Many different errors, I move something around, and then it is a different .`
`01:06.32`	`Kaso`	`it's 1:05 AM here, and im about to have my first meal of the day, I should remeber to eat more.`
`01:06.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Esamynn: My client locked up when you told me that.`
`01:06.41`	`Esamynn`	`ahh`
`01:07.28`	`Mike-N-Go`	`http://pastey.net/2341`
`01:07.35`	`Mike-N-Go`	`line 21 is not curently liked.`
`01:07.46`	`Mike-N-Go`	`currently*`
`01:08.01`	`Mike-N-Go`	`"attempt to concatenate a nil value"`
`01:08.41`	`Esamynn`	`hmm`
`01:08.59`	`Esamynn`	`I wonder if UnitFactionGroup isn't actually available at that point....`
`01:09.21`	`Esamynn`	`which is strange if it isn't`
`01:09.38`	`cladhaire`	`its availabvle at P_E_W reliably from what i've seen`
`01:09.45`	`cladhaire`	`so is UnitRace("player") and you can get that info either way`
`01:11.05`	`JoshBork1`	`it's being done at PLAYER_LOGIN`
`01:11.25`	`JoshBork1`	`actualy, line 21 shouldn't be executed`
`01:11.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com)`
`01:12.22`	`Esamynn`	`oh jeez`
`01:12.24`	`Esamynn`	`\`
`01:12.30`	`Esamynn`	`I totally missed the return`
`01:12.31`	`Mike-N-Go`	`x)`
`01:12.47`	`JoshBork1`	`Mike-N-Go: return makes the flow of execution leave the function`
`01:12.58`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I added the return for no particular reason.`
`01:12.59`	`Esamynn`	`just a sec Mike-N-Go, let me post a new version for you`
`01:14.19`	`Esamynn`	`try this one: http://pastey.net/2344`
`01:14.39`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Is the return right/wrong?`
`01:16.13`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Now, line 48: "attempt to concatenate a nil value"`
`01:17.10`	`Mike-N-Go`	`http://www.wowwiki.com/Events_that_fire_during_the_Loading_Process`
`01:17.13`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Humm...`
`01:17.26`	`Esamynn`	`oh wait, I know, just a sec`
`01:17.34`	`Esamynn`	`at least I ahve somethign to try`
`01:17.54`	`JoshBork1`	`Esamynn: i'm creating a realmFac variable to hold the string concatenation`
`01:18.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`"MAIL_SEND_SUCCESS"`
`01:18.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Category: Mail`
`01:18.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`<PROTECTED>`
`01:18.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Fired when a mail has been successfully sent to the mailbox of the recipient, it is also called when the mailbox is opened for some reason ... bug?`
`01:19.26`	`JoshBork1`	`Cairenn: ping`
`01:19.37`	`Cairenn`	`JoshBork1: pong`
`01:19.47`	`JoshBork1`	`have you heard the latest key theory?`
`01:19.54`	`Cairenn`	`now what?`
`01:20.01`	`JoshBork1`	`people below #150 didn't get keys`
`01:20.37`	`Cide`	`I know at least one person for which that's true, but I don't know if it's consistent`
`01:20.38`	`Amadeo`	`lol`
`01:20.48`	`JoshBork1`	`i'm #5!`
`01:20.54`	`Amadeo`	`theories now :)`
`01:20.59`	`JoshBork1`	`lol Amadeo`
`01:21.05`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`I was 110 and didn't :) so it could likely be a valid theory`
`01:21.32`	`Tuller`	`74, I still like my theory though`
`01:21.43`	`Esamynn`	`Mike-N-Go: http://pastey.net/2345`
`01:21.44`	`JoshBork1`	`taurens?`
`01:21.52`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Can "SEND_MAIL_COD_CHANGED" be used to prevent mail that does not have something in the COD slot from being sent? Currently, if you have an item in the COD slot, then Keybinding+click on item then it sends the item in the COD pane to the soulbound's type recipient....`
`01:21.56`	`Amadeo`	`Tuller: What's yours?`
`01:22.07`	`Tuller`	`http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emailku7.jpg`
`01:22.20`	`Amadeo`	`haha`
`01:23.15`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Error: Line 49 on http://pastey.net/2345 :attempt to concatenate a nil value`
`01:23.59`	`Cide`	`I propose that all keys that are not divisible by a perfect square were not sent!`
`01:24.06`	`Cairenn`	`lol`
`01:24.27`	`cladhaire`	`i agree!`
`01:24.28`	`cladhaire`	`i was 8`
`01:24.29`	`cladhaire`	`i mean`
`01:24.29`	`cladhaire`	`what`
`01:24.31`	`cladhaire`	`=)`
`01:24.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`SPAM!`
`01:24.40`	`cladhaire`	`I was 8, 14, 23 and 19.`
`01:24.45`	`cladhaire`	`I didn't get any keys.`
`01:24.49`	`Amadeo`	`hahaah`
`01:24.49`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~lart people_in_room`
`01:25.15`	`Cairenn`	`that theory doesn't work, btw .. http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33358&postcount=41`
`01:25.26`	`Cairenn`	`his ID # is 135`
`01:25.32`	`cladhaire`	`what about #125 and lower`
`01:25.41`	`Amadeo`	`lol`
`01:25.49`	`Cide`	`135/9 = 15! DAMN!`
`01:25.50`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`still fits for me :)`
`01:25.53`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`I was 110`
`01:26.20`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`there was a guy on the ui forum taht was like 105, but he had also won the ui.ww.net contest as well`
`01:26.20`	`cladhaire`	`i does seem that people within that range didn't get hit`
`01:26.28`	`cladhaire`	`yeah`
`01:26.51`	`Inside`	`I'm 135!`
`01:26.51`	`Inside`	`<3`
`01:26.53`	`Inside`	`er..`
`01:26.53`	`Inside`	`435`
`01:26.57`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`it's all good, I took all my pent up testing energy and spent it on GoW :)`
`01:27.31`	`Amadeo`	`Garoun\|Loupana: Do you have any left? I could use an Xbox 360`
`01:28.07`	`Cairenn`	`one #141 got`
`01:28.25`	`Josh_Borke`	`that's an anomoly`
`01:28.40`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Error: http://pastey.net/2346-oq2h at line 50: attempt to indext field '?' (a nil vilue)`
`01:28.45`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`:P ama`
`01:28.45`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Josh_Borke (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu)`
`01:28.50`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Josh_Borke (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu)`
`01:28.53`	`Josh_Borke`	`woops`
`01:29.18`	`Amadeo`	`Garoun\|Loupana: If you cover the 360, I'll get my own GoW`
`01:29.50`	`Garoun\|Loupana`	`nah, I kinda want a wii :) and that would blow my console budget`
`01:31.36`	din`	`165 and i didnt get mine either`
`01:32.01`	`Amadeo`	din` just broke everything!
`01:35.03`	`Tuller`	`statistical outlier`
`01:36.16`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Error: at http://pastey.net/2344-1dw6 line 48: attempt to concatenate a nil value`
`01:37.29`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Thank you for trying to fix that code.`
`01:37.49`	`Josh_Borke`	`try mine: http://pastey.net/2346`
`01:37.55`	`[Wobin]`	`perhaps the function is being called before the player_login event?`
`01:38.17`	`[Wobin]`	`god knows how though =P`
`01:39.11`	`[Wobin]`	`or possibly the variables aren't being set properly due to an incorrect local reference from a scriptevent?`
`01:39.23`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-179-20-11.austin.res.rr.com)`
`01:39.35`	`malreth`	`rawr!@#!`
`01:40.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Anyone have a theory?`
`01:40.46`	`malreth`	`e=mc2`
`01:40.49`	`Tuller`	`yes, you're an alien`
`01:41.09`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I have been chucking away unsuccessfully at separated-server SV.`
`01:41.33`	`Mike-N-Go`	`e =mc^2`
`01:41.37`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Rather`
`01:42.21`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~malreth`
`01:42.24`	`purl`	`never take malreth seriously`
`01:42.32`	`malreth`	`MUTHA!`
`01:42.41`	`Mike-N-Go`	`All righty then.`
`01:42.52`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~Mike-N-Go`
`01:42.54`	`purl`	`i guess mike-n-go is the n00blet that could.`
`01:43.30`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~dict n00blet`
`01:43.56`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, n00blet means little.`
`01:44.20`	`malreth`	`purl, n00blet is little`
`01:44.21`	`purl`	`malreth: okay`
`01:44.27`	`malreth`	`~botsnack`
`01:44.27`	`purl`	`aw, gee, malreth`
`01:44.42`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~lart people_in_room`
`01:44.46`	`Tuller`	`8859 items in my database, but I haven't exactly been looking`
`01:45.01`	`malreth`	`~whalenuts Mike-N-Go`
`01:45.15`	`malreth`	`pfft...`
`01:45.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~Thank you`
`01:45.25`	`purl`	`Mike-N-Go: sure thing`
`01:45.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~lart malreth`
`01:46.32`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~dict n00blet`
`01:46.46`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, we just told you???`
`01:47.02`	`malreth`	`~n00blet`
`01:47.03`	`purl`	`from memory, n00blet is little`
`01:47.20`	`malreth`	`or..`
`01:47.23`	`malreth`	`purl, n00blet`
`01:47.24`	`purl`	`hmm... n00blet is little`
`01:47.54`	`malreth`	`the dict command actually runs a dictionary search... you can't change the dictionary`
`01:48.02`	`malreth`	`that's what they taught us in school`
`01:48.29`	`malreth`	`purl, n00blet is also Mike-N-Go`
`01:48.30`	`purl`	`okay, malreth`
`01:48.43`	`Josh_Borke`	`~Mike-N-Go`
`01:48.44`	`purl`	`i guess mike-n-go is the n00blet that could.`
`01:48.54`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~n00blet`
`01:48.55`	`purl`	`[n00blet] little. Mike-N-Go`
`01:49.13`	`Josh_Borke`	`ok bye`
`01:49.14`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Josh_Borke (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu)`
`01:49.16`	`malreth`	`purl, forget n00blet`
`01:49.36`	`malreth`	`too old?`
`01:49.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, n00blet is also AMD`
`01:49.37`	`purl`	`okay, Mike-N-Go`
`01:49.38`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~n00blet`
`01:49.39`	`purl`	`i guess n00blet is little. Mike-N-Go. AMD`
`01:50.06`	`malreth`	`purl, no n00blet is little`
`01:50.08`	`purl`	`malreth: okay`
`01:50.14`	`malreth`	`later all`
`01:50.22`	`Kirkburn`	`Nutcase`
`01:50.34`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~malreth`
`01:50.36`	`purl`	`malreth is always right`
`01:51.07`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, malreth is awkwardly strange.`
`01:51.08`	`purl`	`...but malreth is already something else...`
`01:51.25`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Pup- (i=pup@82-44-148-15.cable.ubr01.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`01:51.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, malreth is also awkwardly strange.`
`01:51.27`	`purl`	`Mike-N-Go: okay`
`01:51.31`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~malreth`
`01:51.32`	`purl`	`malreth scares me, or awkwardly strange.`
`01:57.12`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~api`
`01:57.43`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~botsnck`
`01:57.55`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, why are you not responding?`
`01:57.57`	`purl`	`Mike-N-Go: what are you talking about?`
`01:58.13`	`Cide`	`you just fail at typing ~botsnack ;)`
`01:58.39`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, api is go to http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API`
`01:58.40`	`purl`	`...but api is already something else...`
`01:58.49`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, what is api?`
`01:58.52`	`purl`	`Mike-N-Go: what are you talking about?`
`01:58.59`	`cladhaire`	`Mike..`
`01:59.00`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Um`
`01:59.01`	`cladhaire`	`don't mess with purl`
`01:59.02`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Mike-N-Go, please don't do that`
`01:59.07`	`cladhaire`	`purl is a bot across lots of IRC networks,`
`01:59.11`	`cladhaire`	`you can't redefine api`
`01:59.14`	`ScytheBlade1`	`purl spans three other bots and about 500 other channels`
`01:59.16`	`Mike-N-Go`	`OK.`
`01:59.16`	`cladhaire`	`its not our personal playtoy`
`01:59.22`	`[Wobin]`	`You might want to use something more specific`
`01:59.23`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Sorry.`
`01:59.25`	`[Wobin]`	`like wowapi`
`01:59.29`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Ahh`
`01:59.32`	`Mike-N-Go`	`May I?`
`01:59.35`	`cladhaire`	`purl, wowapi is http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API`
`01:59.37`	`purl`	`...but wowapi is already something else...`
`01:59.42`	`Cide`	`haha`
`01:59.44`	`cladhaire`	`~literal wowapi`
`01:59.45`	`purl`	`"wowapi" is "at http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API"`
`01:59.45`	`ScytheBlade1`	`~wowapi`
`01:59.46`	`purl`	`somebody said wowapi was at http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API`
`01:59.48`	`Cairenn`	`and messing with someone else's preset definition for themselves is considered extremely rude`
`01:59.52`	`Mike-N-Go`	`purl, wowapi is also http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API`
`01:59.54`	`purl`	`okay, Mike-N-Go`
`01:59.55`	`[Wobin]`	`hehe`
`02:00.04`	`[Wobin]`	`...`
`02:00.11`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~wowapi`
`02:00.13`	`purl`	`it has been said that wowapi is at http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API, or http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft_API`
`02:00.13`	`[Wobin]`	`You just added the same thing`
`02:00.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`LOL`
`02:00.55`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Sorry if I have acted improper, I am new to this big wrold of IRC`
`02:01.00`	`Mike-N-Go`	`And what a big world it is!`
`02:01.03`	`zenzelezz`	`just stop messing with the bot :)`
`02:01.48`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Yeah, don't worry about it`
`02:01.59`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~mike-n-go`
`02:02.01`	`purl`	`from memory, mike-n-go is the n00blet that could.`
`02:02.45`	`Mike-N-Go`	`While I have all your attention, can I have some assistance?`
`02:03.37`	`Mike-N-Go`	`My 'lil addon I am working return nil to something http://pastey.net/2341`
`02:04.00`	`Cide`	`what's the error?`
`02:04.02`	`Cide`	`or bug`
`02:04.12`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Many things, different ways to each revision.... that others have tried...`
`02:04.15`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Let me get it.`
`02:04.24`	`Cide`	`coding help 101 again ;)`
`02:04.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`rror: at http://pastey.net/2344-1dw6 line 48: attempt to concatenate a nil value`
`02:04.29`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Error*`
`02:04.40`	`[Wobin]`	`I <3 150KB/s downloads`
`02:04.58`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: either AMDRealm or AMDFaction is nil`
`02:05.30`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I know that, how can I trigger it later in the load sequence?`
`02:05.40`	`ScytheBlade1`	`YEAH`
`02:05.47`	`ScytheBlade1`	`ONE ENCHANTING ROD TO RULE THEM ALL`
`02:05.48`	`ScytheBlade1`	`FINALLY`
`02:05.57`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: btw, is this expansion or live?`
`02:06.15`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Interface: 11200`
`02:06.29`	`Mike-N-Go`	`The live version.`
`02:06.34`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: then you need to change line 13 to: local function _onEvent() -- create the event handler function`
`02:06.48`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Cairenn (n=Cairenn@CPE001217452e29-CM014500004571.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`02:06.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge chuckg (n=chuckg@66-237-5-116.starstream.net)`
`02:07.01`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Paste over?`
`02:07.05`	`Cide`	`yes`
`02:07.07`	`Cide`	`then try`
`02:07.41`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cairenn (n=Cairenn@CPE001217452e29-CM014500004571.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`02:07.41`	`*** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ`
`02:09.25`	`[Wobin]`	`woohoo!`
`02:09.32`	`[Wobin]`	`BANKSPACE HERE I COME =P`
`02:09.55`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Seriously`
`02:10.01`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Took their freaking time to do that`
`02:10.13`	`Amadeo`	`what changed?`
`02:10.20`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Before, for lower level enchants`
`02:10.25`	`ScytheBlade1`	`You needed your lower-level rod to do them`
`02:10.34`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Now, one rod does them all`
`02:10.39`	`Amadeo`	`nice :)`
`02:10.44`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I resorted to carrying three rods around`
`02:10.46`	`Amadeo`	`you still need like 10 things for Engineering though!`
`02:10.51`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Now I only have to carry one, and I can do MORE with it`
`02:12.01`	`Mike-N-Go`	`http://pastey.net/2350 <--- latest`
`02:13.24`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`oh dear god in heaven, they gave Shatner his own game show!`
`02:14.00`	`[Wobin]`	`Amadeo: At least with engineering, the majority of the 'tools' are easily remade`
`02:14.14`	`[Wobin]`	`Neuro_Medivh: ... I have no words =P`
`02:14.28`	`chuckg`	`Win Ben Steins Money was the best in history.`
`02:14.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`http://abc.go.com/primetime/showmethemoney/index.html`
`02:15.16`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`who gives shatner his own tv show again?`
`02:15.49`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge beerke (n=beerke@5353E177.cable.casema.nl)`
`02:17.20`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=tardmrr@ip68-227-128-41.br.br.cox.net)`
`02:19.19`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Error: at http://pastey.net/2351-2ffy:2341-2epl line 48: attempt to index field '?' (a string value)`
`02:19.36`	`Cide`	`like I said, try this: http://pastey.net/2351`
`02:22.53`	`Mike-N-Go`	`That is http://pastey.net/2351`
`02:23.14`	`Cide`	`no it isn't`
`02:23.20`	`Cide`	`oh, yes it is`
`02:23.41`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Cide: SEE!`
`02:23.49`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~cide`
`02:23.50`	`purl`	`i guess cide is the developer of the CT mods`
`02:24.04`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Wow, nice job on the CT mods.`
`02:24.13`	`Cide`	`:)`
`02:24.22`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I was using opt as the trigger key before.`
`02:24.25`	`thezanke`	`what is the current patch for expansion?`
`02:24.29`	`thezanke`	`i am tired of patching`
`02:25.13`	`Mike-N-Go`	`So, it conflicted with your mod. I really like CT_MailMod, thank you for being part of that.`
`02:25.41`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: are you getting stuff in your chat frame when you reload?`
`02:25.48`	`Cide`	`you're welcome, I'm glad you like it`
`02:25.49`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Yup.`
`02:26.00`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Oh!`
`02:26.23`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Argent Dawn-Horde and my unit name show!`
`02:28.59`	`Cide`	`if you do`
`02:29.12`	`Cide`	`/script ChatFrame1:AddMessage(type(MailDirectorData[AMDRealm.."-"..AMDFaction]))`
`02:29.15`	`Cide`	`what does it print?`
`02:29.59`	`Cide`	`err, that won't work`
`02:30.23`	`Cide`	`/script ChatFrame1:AddMessage(type(MailDirectorData[GetRealmName("realmName").."-"..UnitFactionGroup("player")]))`
`02:30.46`	`Naurbrannon`	`oh great I've uploaded an addOn of mine for the first time in wowinterface...how does it works? will I have a useful "your addons" link like in curse-gaming? ^_^"`
`02:30.57`	`Mike-N-Go`	`"string" is result`
`02:31.05`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: what I thought, then`
`02:31.39`	`Cide`	`MailDirectorData[AMDRealm.."-"..AMDFaction] = name;`
`02:31.42`	`Cide`	`that sets it to a string`
`02:31.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`The first one is error`
`02:31.46`	`Cide`	`but you're expecting a table`
`02:31.54`	`Cide`	`MailDirectorData[AMDRealm.."-"..AMDFaction][itemType] <- expects a table`
`02:32.22`	`Guillotine`	`Naurbrannon: Yes, there is a "List My Interfaces" link on the left side`
`02:32.47`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: try this: http://pastey.net/2353`
`02:33.16`	`Mike-N-Go`	`How about --MailDirectorData[string(AMDRealm.."-"..AMDFaction)] = name;`
`02:33.18`	`Cide`	`put that in, type /script MailDirectorData[GetRealmName("realmName").."-"..UnitFactionGroup("player")] = { }`
`02:33.26`	`Cide`	`no, do what I put in`
`02:33.36`	`Cide`	`and then type the slash command I just said`
`02:33.40`	`Cide`	`and then reload ui`
`02:34.00`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I am.`
`02:34.59`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Parak (i=PROFI@user-10874ap.cable.mindspring.com)`
`02:35.11`	`Mike-N-Go`	`<PROTECTED>`
`02:36.08`	`Mike-N-Go`	`YAY, IT WORKS!`
`02:36.24`	`Cide`	`there you go :)`
`02:36.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`It does not have any error code, and the mail sends.`
`02:36.55`	`Cide`	`no problem :)`
`02:37.00`	`Cide`	`if you get famous I want 25% though`
`02:37.31`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Ok, if anyone sells me money you will get 25% of 25% of it :P`
`02:37.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Warla (i=Darky28@77.71.3.213.cust.bluewin.ch)`
`02:37.45`	`Cide`	`hehe :)`
`02:37.47`	`Guillotine`	`sells you money?`
`02:37.54`	`Guillotine`	`how do you sell money?`
`02:38.38`	`Guillotine`	`btw cide, heard a bunch of people talking about it on TBC, is there a version of CT_MailMod for TBC yet?`
`02:38.42`	`ckknight`	`foreign exchange market?`
`02:38.46`	`Cide`	`Guillotine: yes`
`02:39.42`	`Guillotine`	`Cide: where can that be accessed?`
`02:40.13`	`Cide`	`www.wowinterface.com`
`02:40.39`	`Warla`	`who wants to see the best burning crusade level spec for mages?`
`02:41.07`	`Naurbrannon`	`seems nobody :p`
`02:41.13`	`Warla`	`http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1326083160374522303<--`
`02:41.18`	`Warla`	`http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1326083160374522303 <-- ownage ^^`
`02:41.34`	`Guillotine`	`they removed the +damage affecting pulse dagger`
`02:41.43`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Now, how not to send mail if there is a bad item, ie: Soulbound`
`02:41.43`	`Kirkburn`	`So good you posted it twice? :P`
`02:41.47`	`[Wobin]`	`ah arcane dagger?`
`02:41.58`	`Warla`	`haha ya`
`02:42.00`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Because it sends a mail without the item then.`
`02:42.01`	`Warla`	`its so nuts`
`02:42.10`	`Warla`	`STAB STAB --> 3500 hp gone`
`02:42.11`	`Warla`	`haha`
`02:42.35`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: I have some checks for that in CT_MailMod`
`02:43.02`	`Cide`	`check it out for guidelines`
`02:43.16`	`Mike-N-Go`	`May you reference me some lines, and tell me what I would have to do if I include them in my addon.`
`02:43.29`	`Naurbrannon`	`what the hell is that pulse dagger? oO`
`02:43.35`	`Cairenn`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=42775343&postId=472405607&sid=1#199`
`02:43.37`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge XLVII (n=XLVII@CPE-58-162-83-57.qld.bigpond.net.au)`
`02:43.41`	`XLVII`	`I have a question`
`02:43.46`	`XLVII`	`How do I bind a 'spell`
`02:43.52`	`XLVII`	`'spell' to a certain key?`
`02:44.05`	`XLVII`	`Do I have to put them onto ActionBars for it to work?`
`02:44.42`	`Tuller`	`did I ever say "Thank you, Cairenn"?`
`02:44.49`	`Cairenn`	`you did`
`02:44.54`	`Cairenn`	`and you're welcome`
`02:46.34`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: http://pastey.net/2354`
`02:46.40`	`Cide`	`you want a function similar to that one`
`02:47.22`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Nice logic test.`
`02:47.38`	`Guillotine`	`Naurbrannon: Its a dagger that does arcane damage`
`02:47.47`	`Mike-N-Go`	`And how do I "cite" CT_MM, or do I need to?`
`02:47.53`	`Guillotine`	`there was a bug where the arcane damage was being affected by +damage and spells`
`02:47.55`	`Warla`	`Cairenn whats with that thread? i see a lot whining what happened?`
`02:48.04`	`Cide`	`Mike-N-Go: first of all, you want to rename the tooltip`
`02:48.11`	`Cairenn`	`a bunch of keys never came through, twice`
`02:48.26`	`Cide`	`replace CT_MMTooltip with MailDirectorTooltip`
`02:48.26`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Yah, prefix it with AMD`
`02:48.47`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Or is it better to use long names?`
`02:48.56`	`Cide`	`just preference`
`02:49.08`	`Cide`	`but make sure it's somewhat unique so you don't get a global name collision`
`02:49.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Less conflict if someone else has the same name, and this wont be displayed to an avg user of said addon.`
`02:50.14`	`Cide`	`if you're using MailDirectorTooltip as the name:`
`02:50.27`	`Naurbrannon`	`mmm may I get my submission accepted btw? ^^`
`02:50.27`	`Cide`	`and then at line 8 of your file or so, add: local t = CreateFrame("GameTooltip", "MailDirectorTooltip", WorldFrame, "GameTooltipTemplate"); t:SetOwner(WorldFrame, "ANCHOR_NONE")`
`02:51.17`	`Kirkburn`	`This is incredible (and you can try it yourself, as I am!) http://www.istartedsomething.com/20061110/photosynth-screencast/`
`02:51.54`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Ok, after I prevent non-item mails to be sent, do you think there is anything else I need for my addon?`
`02:52.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`What I would like to do is make the text different colors`
`02:52.51`	`Mike-N-Go`	`That wont be to hard.`
`02:56.30`	`Tuller`	`Kirkburn: can you see any cases of where there's no overlap?`
`02:57.05`	`Kirkburn`	`No overlap?`
`02:57.30`	`Kirkburn`	`Hard to say, the pictures are taken from all angles all over the Pizza`
`02:57.34`	`Kirkburn`	`*Piazza! :P`
`02:57.44`	`Kirkburn`	`It's like crazy paving`
`02:58.00`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Oo`
`02:58.15`	`Kirkburn`	`Bonus cookies for whoever can tell me where it is without looking it up :P`
`02:58.19`	`Amadeo`	`mmm, pizza`
`02:58.40`	`[Wobin]`	`vatican city?`
`02:59.19`	`Kirkburn`	`Nope`
`02:59.36`	`Kirkburn`	`Piazza San Marco, Venezia :)`
`02:59.37`	`[Wobin]`	`somewhere in italy?`
`02:59.55`	`Kirkburn`	`(St. Mark's square Venice)`
`02:59.58`	`[Wobin]`	`can I get a cookie anyway?`
`03:00.25`	`Amadeo`	`are these the type of apps being bundled with Vista Ultimate?`
`03:04.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge SP\|Sorren (n=astrayca@adsl-75-26-200-112.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)`
`03:10.02`	`Kirkburn`	`No cookies for you! :P`
`03:10.13`	`Kirkburn`	`Nah, not in Vista Ultimate afaik`
`03:10.21`	`Kirkburn`	`We-ell ... now that you mention it`
`03:10.24`	`Kirkburn`	`It's quite possible`
`03:10.40`	`Amadeo`	`I'm good, huh?`
`03:12.56`	`Kirkburn`	`heh`
`03:13.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge a-stray-cat (n=astrayca@adsl-75-26-200-112.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)`
`03:13.22`	`Kirkburn`	`Might be a free thing like the maps stuff though, who knows`
`03:14.16`	`zenzelezz`	`the birds know`
`03:14.21`	`zenzelezz`	`the birds always know...`
`03:15.48`	`Naurbrannon`	`how do I get the chat links text using dev tools?`
`03:16.29`	`Naurbrannon`	`nvm found`
`03:16.34`	`Kirkburn`	`zenzelezz, that Piazza is pigeon heaven, good if you like scaring them :P`
`03:17.17`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge kelvie (n=Kelvie@S01060014bfb35472.vc.shawcable.net)`
`03:19.24`	`Amadeo`	`Ok, does anyone know what the song is that this video starts out with? (Ignore the video, I was clicking random youtubes earlier and it's pretty stupid) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ue4RBFc6w`
`03:22.44`	`[Cu]Werik`	`There are some seriously talented people out in the world`
`03:25.57`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge dsfargeg (i=rumors@gateway/tor/x-6ebea5ba62c11358)`
`03:27.58`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower\|ZZzz (n=chatzill@host-70-45-82-92.onelinkpr.net)`
`03:40.12`	`thezanke`	`there an aioi for bc yet?`
`03:40.31`	`Cide`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=11114&sid=1 - does anyone else see a lot of Serk?`
`03:40.37`	`ckknight`	`thezanke, OneBag`
`03:40.56`	`Cairenn`	`Cide: yes, he's spamming the forum`
`03:41.05`	`Cide`	`with quite unhelpful answers, heh`
`03:41.09`	`Shadowed`	`wait`
`03:41.11`	`Shadowed`	`let me guess`
`03:41.13`	`Cairenn`	`I've already reported him in one thread, hopefully they'll clear him out`
`03:41.14`	`Shadowed`	`he's whining about the changes?`
`03:41.24`	`Cide`	`actually, not really Shadowed, no :)`
`03:41.25`	`Cairenn`	`no, pure spam`
`03:41.31`	`Shadowed`	`improvement!`
`03:41.49`	`Cide`	`Cairenn: but it's cool to have one's name as last poster in every thread!`
`03:41.56`	`Cairenn`	`oh of course!`
`03:42.05`	`Shadowed`	`He's going for MVP, he has to beat Irel`
`03:42.07`	`Shadowed`	`Iriel*`
`03:42.07`	`Cairenn`	`silly me, I forgot that`
`03:42.10`	`ckknight`	`omg`
`03:42.12`	`ckknight`	`so much Serk`
`03:42.15`	`Naurbrannon`	`ffs same items have different links in TBC depending if they were created before or after some patch :/`
`03:42.39`	`Naurbrannon`	`have to destroy and recompose stacks to correct`
`03:42.54`	`thezanke`	`is there a site with all the BC addons?`
`03:43.01`	`Tuller`	`haha`
`03:43.11`	`Shadowed`	`i hear CG has them`
`03:43.34`	`Tuller`	`http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat89.html :P`
`03:43.49`	`[Cu]Werik`	`You have good ears`
`03:44.06`	`Shadowed`	`no, i'm just a smartass :p`
`03:44.53`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I see`
`03:56.28`	`ckknight`	`honestly, some of the stuff Serk said is funny, due to its absurdity, but I admit that he's a nuisance.`
`03:57.04`	`Shadowed`	`I found the post where he says reported for model swapping amusing`
`03:57.14`	`Shadowed`	`but thats mostly due to the irony`
`04:01.18`	`Guillotine`	`heh, I did that once. Had the most recent post on every post on every thread on the first 2 pages :D Took me like an hour and a half to do, but Slouken said "Yay guillotine!"`
`04:01.20`	`Guillotine`	`so it was all worth it`
`04:01.30`	`Cairenn`	`heh, I remember that`
`04:01.41`	`Cairenn`	`but your responses were more or less helpful`
`04:01.45`	`Cairenn`	`he's just trolling`
`04:01.51`	`Guillotine`	`yah, they all actually answered the asked question`
`04:02.05`	`Guillotine`	`I wouldn't classify " Give me a beta key." as exactly helpful`
`04:02.12`	`Shadowed`	`nobody goes to the blizzard forums for answers, just to either be an asshole, a troll or to mock others!`
`04:02.16`	`Cairenn`	`umm, yeah, not really`
`04:02.24`	`Shadowed`	`depends who you're considering helpful to`
`04:02.50`	`Guillotine`	`Actually, the UI Forums used to be extremely helpful`
`04:03.01`	`Guillotine`	`back when Shouryuu was our only troll`
`04:03.03`	`Shadowed`	`they still are, i'm being sarcastic :p`
`04:03.03`	`Cairenn`	`they still can be, some times`
`04:03.25`	`Guillotine`	`I know, but now they are filled much more with posts people could find the answers to in 30 seconds if they actually looked`
`04:03.34`	`Shadowed`	`just most people started realising that people actually help on UI & macros, so now we have every idiot who can't read trying to get help`
`04:03.51`	`Cairenn`	`you mean, like, by reading the stickies in 9 cases out of 10?`
`04:03.56`	`Guillotine`	`exactly`
`04:04.08`	`Guillotine`	`used to be it was only reading the stickies in 1/10`
`04:04.13`	`ckknight`	`people don't like stickies`
`04:04.19`	`ckknight`	`stickies are a section to skip over`
`04:04.42`	`Shadowed`	`we should get slouken to start banning people who don't read the stickies`
`04:04.53`	`Shadowed`	`i'm pretty sure stupidity is in that agreement somewhere`
`04:05.10`	`Tain`	`You think people are bad now? Try banning someone, even for the most legitimate of reasons.`
`04:07.50`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I'm evul`
`04:11.00`	`[Cu]Werik`	`The thing is, forums aren't used for what they are for. At least, I think forums work like this: you ask a question, and you get X answers/solutions for your problems. But people are using forums for chit chatting and it drives me crazy`
`04:11.47`	`Cairenn`	`agreed, to a point`
`04:12.01`	`Cairenn`	`a "chit chat" forum for just that is fine`
`04:12.05`	`Cairenn`	`but leave the rest alone`
`04:12.06`	`cladhaire`	`forums and mailing lists are both for asynchronous communication between a community.`
`04:12.11`	`cladhaire`	`but (what cair just said)`
`04:12.25`	`Shadowed`	`I don't even mind if people want to chit chat a little in UI & Macros, but read the damn stickies.`
`04:12.25`	`[Cu]Werik`	`If you want to chit chat, use the proper medias, like IRC or MSN or whatever you like`
`04:12.35`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge AnduinLothar (n=AnduinLo@ip68-106-219-78.oc.oc.cox.net)`
`04:13.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge a-stray-cat (n=astrayca@adsl-75-26-200-112.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)`
`04:13.46`	`Cairenn`	`I admit to being as guilty of the next person in "chit chatting" in the UI forum`
`04:13.57`	`Cairenn`	`some of our best threads have been completely o/t`
`04:13.59`	`Tain`	`It's a community.`
`04:14.08`	`Cairenn`	`but yeah`
`04:14.08`	`Tain`	`It's partially what it is there for.`
`04:14.21`	`[Cu]Werik`	`If people would use forums for chatting there wont be off topic discussion:)`
`04:14.31`	`[Cu]Werik`	`wouldnt:P`
`04:14.36`	`[Cu]Werik`	`or werent`
`04:15.10`	`cladhaire`	`[Cu]Werik: Thats unrealistic.. chit chat is valid, and where lots of things come up to improve a community.. I am available 16 hours a day via forums and email, and about 2 hours a day via live communication. In your rules, I shouldn't be able to participate in the community beyond my two hours.`
`04:15.17`	`cladhaire`	`shrug`
`04:15.32`	`cladhaire`	`i get the point, but there's a difference`
`04:15.58`	`Tain`	`I'm afraid you will have to submit your point in triplicate to the proper channels, clad.`
`04:16.01`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Sometimes, 2 hours are more than 16:)`
`04:16.15`	`cladhaire`	`...`
`04:16.19`	`[Cu]Werik`	`But I can see your point`
`04:16.33`	`cladhaire`	`if we're talking a support forum, yes.`
`04:16.35`	`cladhaire`	`but we're not.`
`04:16.35`	`Cairenn`	`the problem is, as said, asynchronous communication`
`04:16.46`	`cladhaire`	`yep.`
`04:17.21`	`[Cu]Werik`	`The biggest problem is that they are open for everyone:P`
`04:17.26`	`Cairenn`	`a community that is made up of people world wide means that when one person wants to talk to another, they may be on completely different time schedules, so the only way to do so is via email or forums`
`04:17.46`	`cladhaire`	`and if you use email, onlyt wo peopel are involved in the conversation, which hurts the community`
`04:18.02`	`Cairenn`	`yup`
`04:18.03`	`cladhaire`	`so sorting through the noise, as frustrating as it is, is better for the community without a doubt.`
`04:18.27`	`Cairenn`	`a lot of it is just a difference in outlook though`
`04:18.41`	`Cairenn`	`some people view forums as, as you say, support and nothing more`
`04:18.49`	`Cairenn`	`others view them as a ways of creating a community`
`04:19.16`	`zenzelezz`	`what a forum is for is entierly up to the administrator of said forum, whatever anyone else might think`
`04:19.21`	`cladhaire`	`if that role is clearly defined, the community can regulate it, unfortunately its the "Catch all" forums with no clear purpose that cause the problem.`
`04:19.44`	`cladhaire`	`zenzelezz: that's great, but the administration is then required to moderate or enforce that ideal. We dont have that, its a community run joint, with no levels of moderation`
`04:19.54`	`cladhaire`	`and to be frank, while its frustrating, the community does a damn good job`
`04:19.56`	`Guillotine`	`I think a mixture. Our OT threads are great (and often quite entertaining), but there becomes a point when its too much. When a random person comes in and posts "Hey discord author, what did u have for dinner?", its annoying.`
`04:20.04`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kaligar (n=Grey@dsl-203-113-233-253.ACT.netspace.net.au)`
`04:20.12`	`zenzelezz`	`I'm not saying it's easy or even possible, but no-one else can lay down the law`
`04:20.16`	`Tain`	`What did he have for dinner?`
`04:20.17`	`cladhaire`	`agreed`
`04:20.19`	`cladhaire`	`so don't respond`
`04:20.22`	`cladhaire`	`the thread dies`
`04:20.24`	`cladhaire`	`if he bumps it.`
`04:20.26`	`cladhaire`	`we find him and kill him`
`04:20.49`	`Cairenn`	`lol`
`04:21.20`	`[Cu]Werik`	`It's just a bad decision to put a totally technical forum inbetween 12 other forums which has nothing to do with it. Especially if it's open for everyone.`
`04:21.37`	`cladhaire`	`Who says its a technical forum?`
`04:21.40`	`cladhaire`	`=)`
`04:21.48`	`cladhaire`	`lets go back to the intent, which we can't decide or guess`
`04:21.48`	`[Cu]Werik`	`right :)`
`04:21.57`	`cladhaire`	`Its the UI and Macros forum`
`04:22.08`	`cladhaire`	`if it weren't for slouken it would be a cesspool of /suggest posts.`
`04:22.18`	`cladhaire`	`but he makes it clear what belongs and what doesn't.`
`04:22.21`	`cladhaire`	`and thats the best we have`
`04:22.22`	`Shadowed`	`if it wern't for slouken, nobody would post on it :p`
`04:22.36`	*** join/#wowi-lounge Arrowmaster` (i=Arrow@cpe-24-209-111-105.woh.res.rr.com)
`04:22.37`	`cladhaire`	`we havemoderated "technical" threads, which he keeps clean (which is a tough job) and he lets the rest go`
`04:22.52`	`cladhaire`	`given its not his job, its pretty impressive.`
`04:23.02`	`Shadowed`	`slouken's amazing in general`
`04:23.03`	`[Cu]Werik`	`The problem is he has to moderate it:)`
`04:23.36`	`cladhaire`	`so, someone write a crawler for the forum that lets the tehcnical users rate posts, a meta forum`
`04:23.48`	`cladhaire`	`then we have all the news that's relevant, without the nouse.`
`04:23.53`	`Guillotine`	`that would be pretty cool`
`04:23.55`	`cladhaire`	`and those brave souls can post directly in the forums`
`04:23.57`	`cladhaire`	`shrug`
`04:23.59`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Yeah, like we are trying to do it on curse?`
`04:24.08`	`cladhaire`	`i have no idea what you guys are trying to do`
`04:24.10`	`[Cu]Werik`	`my warhammer news got downrated in 20 seconds by wow fans;)`
`04:24.11`	`cladhaire`	`its a magic black box.`
`04:24.17`	`cladhaire`	`=)`
`04:24.17`	`Shadowed`	`lol [Cu]Werik`
`04:24.21`	`cladhaire`	`and no, that's not what i'm talking about.`
`04:24.32`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I can see it will have a future`
`04:24.35`	`cladhaire`	`curse isn't.. the most technical audience and I wouldn't put something like that on the frontline of a website.`
`04:24.43`	`cladhaire`	`it doesn't belong there.`
`04:24.48`	`[Cu]Werik`	`7.5 million crazy wow addict clicking minus on everything but wow stuff`
`04:25.07`	`cladhaire`	`yeah, thats why it doesn't work`
`04:25.10`	`cladhaire`	`but thats' not what i proposed.`
`04:25.14`	`cladhaire`	`make a small simple tool to fill a need`
`04:25.19`	`cladhaire`	`not one mega portal that does them all`
`04:25.21`	`cladhaire`	`BSD not Windows =)`
`04:25.22`	`Guillotine`	`I think what we need is something that hooks into the WoW forum and lets you rate it`
`04:25.26`	`cladhaire`	`subtle distinctino`
`04:25.32`	`cladhaire`	`Guillotine: simple firefox plugin`
`04:25.34`	`cladhaire`	`actually`
`04:25.41`	`Tain`	`If it's a "rating" system people just rate up what someone else rated up.`
`04:25.44`	`Tain`	`Or down.`
`04:25.44`	`Guillotine`	`I know, I'd write it, but we'd need a server to host ratings on`
`04:25.47`	`Shadowed`	`what's Firefox?`
`04:25.55`	`cladhaire`	`Guillotine: i can provide webspace,`
`04:26.08`	`cladhaire`	`i just dont like needless bitching about "woe is us.. teh forums are teh suck"`
`04:26.10`	`Tain`	`It ends up with a tiny amount of people forming mass opinions`
`04:26.15`	`Shadowed`	`Tain: Well, hopfully you only give it to the people that aren't going to "hive mind" a thread`
`04:26.15`	`cladhaire`	`but then again, i'm just a 2 hour a day member of the community =)`
`04:26.22`	`cladhaire`	`Tain: I'm not talking about Diff`
`04:26.23`	`cladhaire`	`Digg`
`04:26.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`pls tell me someone banned Serk`
`04:26.29`	`cladhaire`	`Digg is the devil =)`
`04:26.30`	`Guillotine`	`cladhaire: alright, I'll get started and see what I can do :) I've only written 2 extensions, so I'm not the greatest yet`
`04:26.36`	`Tain`	`Might as well just tell them what to think too then, Shadowed`
`04:26.43`	`cladhaire`	`there's got to be one to model off of, TBH`
`04:26.45`	`cladhaire`	`looka t WorkSafe`
`04:26.46`	`Shadowed`	`one step at a time :p`
`04:26.52`	`cladhaire`	`it lets you flag things as NSFW`
`04:26.59`	`cladhaire`	`and warns you if you go to a bad post.`
`04:27.08`	`cladhaire`	`at worst, lets do the same with "ZOMG TROLL" posts =)`
`04:27.16`	`cladhaire`	`and we all take a blood pact to let the threads die.`
`04:27.23`	`Guillotine`	`can even put a little rating number in the little place the blizzard icon goes`
`04:27.32`	`cladhaire`	`cause TBh, if Cogwheel and Mald didn't post on the forums, they'd all die =)`
`04:27.42`	`cladhaire`	`the have a leather satchel on their hips labelled "Troll Food"`
`04:27.44`	`[Cu]Werik`	`These things just dont work imho:)`
`04:27.46`	`cladhaire`	`I know, because I have one too`
`04:27.55`	`cladhaire`	`Werik: Well what else do you prpopse?`
`04:28.06`	`cladhaire`	`bitching about it does nothing but make this channel less productive imo =)`
`04:28.22`	`cladhaire`	`<-- bored, sorry`
`04:28.24`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Nothing, you just can't de anything against it other than limiting the access`
`04:28.35`	`Guillotine`	`There is only one fail-safe solution to eliminating trolls from the forums. Eliminate the forums`
`04:28.48`	`Cairenn`	`indeed`
`04:28.59`	`cladhaire`	`then whats the point =)`
`04:29.10`	`Guillotine`	`we can always make it better :)`
`04:29.12`	`Cairenn`	`and the benefits to community outweigh that, so we're back where we started`
`04:29.15`	`Guillotine`	`I'm just saying it won't be completely fixed`
`04:29.23`	`Shadowed`	`Make slouken post on wowinterface!`
`04:29.34`	`Cairenn`	`been trying to ;)`
`04:29.36`	`cladhaire`	`thats why we have moderated communities like WoWI, etc. that let us control whats done.`
`04:29.42`	`Shadowed`	`try harder!`
`04:29.47`	`cladhaire`	`where we control thread lengths, and who can post, etc.`
`04:30.51`	`[Cu]Werik`	`That can work. I can't see any other way to keep it purely technical. But it's hard to do it without enough 'trustworthy' people :)`
`04:31.30`	`cladhaire`	`in short, there's nothing better than what we're doing.. so we're not doing that bad imo`
`04:31.55`	`[Cu]Werik`	`You can put it that way ;)`
`04:34.35`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you hunters, if you attempt to /cast Call Pet and you already have a pet, what happens?`
`04:34.49`	`cladhaire`	`Chuck Norris dies.`
`04:34.56`	`cladhaire`	`I believe it says "You already control a pet"`
`04:35.40`	`cladhaire`	`You already control a summoned creature`
`04:35.45`	`cladhaire`	`(from BC in-game)`
`04:36.47`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`thanks`
`04:36.56`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`working on pet macros for some peeps`
`04:38.16`	`cladhaire`	`k =)`
`04:39.10`	`SP\|Sorren`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=47194808&sid=1 eh?`
`04:40.07`	`cladhaire`	`spectacular!`
`04:42.04`	`cladhaire`	`NSFW:`
`04:42.09`	`cladhaire`	`but legendary thread`
`04:42.12`	`cladhaire`	`NSFW http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=46964901&sid=1 NSFW`
`04:43.12`	`MentalPower`	`~nsfw`
`04:43.13`	`purl`	`i heard nsfw is not safe for work/wife`
`04:43.38`	`Guillotine`	`topic deleted`
`04:43.48`	`[Cu]Werik`	`yea`
`04:43.49`	`[Cu]Werik`	`:)`
`04:44.01`	`cladhaire`	`damn`
`04:44.04`	`cladhaire`	`it was teh pron`
`04:44.32`	`[Cu]Werik`	`It lived 3 pages, not that bad`
`04:44.46`	`Cide`	`if it was the warrior T5 thread`
`04:44.49`	`Cide`	`it was 18+ pages`
`04:45.06`	`cladhaire`	`it was one of the spinoffs.`
`04:45.17`	`cladhaire`	`was lesbian porn, as opposed to the ebony porn in the 22 page thread =)`
`04:45.22`	`[Cu]Werik`	`:)`
`04:45.37`	`Cide`	`pics or it didn't happen`
`04:45.39`	`Cide`	`oh.. nvm`
`04:45.53`	`Cide`	`so, get this`
`04:46.00`	`Cide`	`bought a new domain last night`
`04:46.03`	`cladhaire`	`k`
`04:46.15`	`Cide`	`dns updated to our server like 3 hours after that`
`04:46.30`	`[Cu]Werik`	`iad.cache.scbih`
`04:46.31`	`[Cu]Werik`	`:)`
`04:46.32`	`Cide`	`worked just fine, and now ~5 hours ago, it redirects back to the domain registrar again`
`04:46.39`	`Cide`	`wtf.`
`04:46.51`	`cladhaire`	`weird.. new registrar.. or one you're familiar with?`
`04:47.15`	`Cide`	`new one, but it works fine for two others so I dunno`
`04:47.27`	`Cide`	`hopefully it updates again but it's weird`
`04:47.59`	`cladhaire`	`we had an issue with a domain migration where URL forwarding was active on the account, and it inserted 7 squatting ad hosts in the rotation with us.. it was ugly`
`04:48.33`	`Cide`	`haha, nice.. :)`
`04:49.03`	`Corrodias`	`so if i have a character with mail in his mailbox, and i delete the character and make a new one with the same name, will the mail disappear?`
`04:49.37`	`Cide`	`yes`
`04:49.45`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Yes. Tested.`
`04:49.55`	`Corrodias`	`this means i must book it to sen'jin and return the mail first. bleh.`
`04:50.15`	`Cide`	`well, get forwarded back to the sender if it wasn't a mail that was returned in the first place`
`04:51.24`	`Guillotine`	`No, it jsut dissapears`
`04:51.34`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Caboose[FH] (n=Caboose9@cpe-66-8-166-76.hawaii.res.rr.com)`
`04:51.47`	`Guillotine`	`at least if the character was transferring servers, but I assume that works the same as deleting. could be wrong though`
`04:51.55`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower (n=chatzill@host-70-45-82-92.onelinkpr.net)`
`04:52.15`	`Cide`	`Guillotine: eh, that's quite an exploit`
`04:52.24`	`Guillotine`	`how so?`
`04:52.38`	`Guillotine`	`I suppose if you want to delete stuff`
`04:52.39`	`Cide`	`"C.O.D <expensive item> to my alt"`
`04:52.43`	`cladhaire`	`you can't transfer a char wioth anything in the mailbox`
`04:52.45`	`Cide`	`<delete alt>`
`04:52.47`	`Guillotine`	`ya, was just thinking that`
`04:52.52`	`Guillotine`	`cladhaire: since when?`
`04:52.57`	`cladhaire`	`since always`
`04:53.00`	`cladhaire`	`since the day it came out`
`04:53.02`	`Cide`	`yep`
`04:53.10`	`cladhaire`	`you cannot be in a guild, be guild leader, cannot be logged in and cannot have anything in the mailbox.`
`04:53.18`	`cladhaire`	`it forces you to delete them`
`04:53.20`	`cladhaire`	`or do somethign with them`
`04:53.36`	`[Cu]Werik`	`you can be in guild`
`04:53.42`	`[Cu]Werik`	`but you will be removed`
`04:53.44`	`Guillotine`	`what if the mail is on its way? my gf lost 6 mooncloth b/c they were sent to her while she was transferring`
`04:53.48`	`cladhaire`	`ooh i wasn't sure about that one.`
`04:53.59`	`cladhaire`	`Guillotine: they woudln't be in your mailbox yet.`
`04:54.02`	`cladhaire`	`there's the 1 hour lag`
`04:54.06`	`cladhaire`	`for why.. i still don't know =)`
`04:54.07`	`Guillotine`	`right`
`04:54.11`	`[Cu]Werik`	`But indeed, you cant have anything in the mailbox.`
`04:54.13`	`Guillotine`	`but would they jsut dissapear?`
`04:54.23`	`Cide`	`well, it does say that you can't have mail in transaction`
`04:54.37`	`[Cu]Werik`	`You can't have mails on the way to your characters either`
`04:54.41`	`Cide`	`which includes the 1h delay according to them iirc`
`04:54.50`	`cladhaire`	`then Guillotine is a LIAR!`
`04:54.58`	`[Cu]Werik`	`:)`
`04:55.08`	`Guillotine`	`its true`
`04:55.09`	`Cide`	`I haven't tried it so I dunno if it works correctly though :P`
`04:55.19`	`Guillotine`	`well spend 25$ to try`
`04:55.26`	`Cide`	`GOOD IDEA!`
`04:55.50`	`[Cu]Werik`	`oh dear, 1/25th of a new geforece`
`04:56.00`	`[Cu]Werik`	`geforce:P`
`04:58.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`so the p3 comes out next week?`
`04:58.58`	`Tain`	`The 17th`
`04:59.25`	`Tain`	`Of course if you're not camping out in front of a store right now you probably won't get one. :)`
`04:59.34`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I have no intention of getting one`
`04:59.50`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I have an Xbox I never play (regular xbox, not 360`
`04:59.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`)`
`05:00.03`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Why would anyone buy P3? No offense, I'm just asking. I can hear 3/4 amazing games for x360 a day, nothing for p3.`
`05:00.12`	`cladhaire`	`we had people lining up 7 days ago`
`05:00.31`	`MentalPower`	`[Cu]Werik: its PS2 vs XboX, only inverted`
`05:00.37`	`Tain`	`That's because the 360 has been out for a while already.`
`05:00.48`	`Tain`	`The library builds over time.`
`05:01.00`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Is P3 better than x360?`
`05:01.10`	`Tain`	`The funny thing is I've actually bought 3 PS2 games in the last 2 months.`
`05:01.12`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Technologically? Is it more advanced?`
`05:01.22`	`grimman\|z0r`	`/wave`
`05:01.27`	`Tain`	`Depends on who you ask.`
`05:01.38`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Anyone. I'm not familiar with consoles`
`05:01.46`	`Tain`	`The hardware is different so it's difficult to judge apples to apples.`
`05:02.07`	`[Cu]Werik`	`All I know is I want to play Gears of War;P and it's on x360`
`05:02.17`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the games are all the same these days... just prettier looking First-Person shooters`
`05:02.28`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I want Fallout 3 (but not by Bethesda)`
`05:02.40`	`Tain`	`Of course Sony has been going out of their way in the last year or so to make themselves out to be the supreme dicks.`
`05:02.59`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`http://www.threebrain.com/weeeeee.shtml`
`05:03.05`	`[Cu]Werik`	`They will be obsolate compared to pc's in a year`
`05:03.09`	`MentalPower`	`[Cu]Werik: yes its more advanced (BluRay vs. DVD, CellChip vs PowerPC, etc)`
`05:03.16`	`cladhaire`	`MXC is the best TV that exists.`
`05:03.22`	`Tain`	`The hardware doesn't matter.`
`05:03.31`	`Tain`	`It's the games that are important.`
`05:03.33`	`[Cu]Werik`	`There is Blueray for x360 imho. I saw Bill talking about it:)`
`05:03.35`	`MentalPower`	`I know it doesn;t matter`
`05:03.40`	`MentalPower`	`nop`
`05:03.44`	`MentalPower`	`HD-DVD`
`05:03.52`	`MentalPower`	`the other format`
`05:03.57`	`Tain`	`I just bought 3 games for the PS2 which has been out for 5 years now.`
`05:04.18`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's the real thing.. they really are just now pushing the limits of the PS2/Xbox`
`05:04.20`	`[Cu]Werik`	`hm`
`05:04.38`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Well, there are quad core cpus for pc already`
`05:04.52`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Yeah, I game on my PC`
`05:05.01`	`Tain`	`It's never a straight comparison though.`
`05:05.14`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Consoles always start hard`
`05:05.17`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`There are certain games that are much more fun on a console though`
`05:05.20`	`[Cu]Werik`	`But they always fall back`
`05:05.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I like Tony Hawk on xbox, but RPGs I prefer pc`
`05:05.44`	`MentalPower`	`funny fact, all consoles use IBM (PowerPC derivative) chips, and all PC's (yes I'm generalizing) use Intel/AMD (x86) chips`
`05:06.04`	`MentalPower`	`s/all consoles/all new consoles/`
`05:06.36`	`MentalPower`	`Xbox moved from Intel -> IBM, and Apple moved from IBM -> Intel`
`05:06.50`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Apple did the right thing;)`
`05:07.00`	`MentalPower`	`i agree`
`05:07.09`	`ckknight`	`Xbox did the right thing.`
`05:07.29`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I don't know about xbox, I have no base for comparison`
`05:07.29`	`ckknight`	`:-P`
`05:07.35`	`[Cu]Werik`	`But Apple did well:)`
`05:07.39`	`ckknight`	`yea, I agree`
`05:07.44`	`ckknight`	`I think both moves were very smart.`
`05:07.48`	`Tain`	`I actually think MS did the right thing with the Xbox.`
`05:08.14`	`Tain`	`They've positioned it to be more than just a pc in a box, which is more or less what the Xbox was.`
`05:08.54`	`Tain`	`I think it was good to make the real separation.`
`05:09.11`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I'm looking forward those laptops with vista media editions which wont need to boot up the OS to play dvds:)`
`05:10.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`It'll take a few months before I'll consider switching to Vista`
`05:10.25`	`cladhaire`	`or you could have a mac where booting up takes 15 seconds =), and use your media remote =)`
`05:10.34`	`Tain`	`It will be more than a few months for me.`
`05:10.36`	`[Cu]Werik`	`yea`
`05:10.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I remember when my roommate switched from 98 to Window ME`
`05:10.49`	`Tain`	`I won't install Vista until a game comes out that is DX10 only that I really want to play.`
`05:11.00`	`[Cu]Werik`	`And spend the rest 30 seconds waiting for the mediaplayer to start`
`05:11.00`	`[Cu]Werik`	`:)`
`05:11.16`	`Tain`	`Windows ME was a special case of suckitude though.`
`05:11.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I find it funny that Windows made XP better than they meant to`
`05:12.04`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Nah, the good thing is in this media edition, lets say you have your work pc, and the family just puts in a dvd and can use it as a complete media station without starting the OS and fooling around on on the pc`
`05:12.37`	`cladhaire`	`yeah, the media center stuff is pretty neat`
`05:12.47`	`[Cu]Werik`	`You can even lock it with password and they can still watch movies`
`05:12.49`	`[Cu]Werik`	`its cool`
`05:13.50`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Splinter Cell Double Agent supports dx10`
`05:14.12`	`MentalPower`	`supports ~= requires`
`05:14.30`	`Tain`	`I despise the Aero interface.`
`05:14.31`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Well, it doesnt require it, but it looks horrible`
`05:14.39`	`[Cu]Werik`	`without it:)`
`05:15.16`	`MentalPower`	`ah, IC`
`05:15.19`	`[Cu]Werik`	`or I don't know what couses it, but it just blows with my x800`
`05:15.24`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight_ (n=ckknight@rrcs-74-62-251-185.west.biz.rr.com)`
`05:15.42`	`SP\|Sorren`	`whats wrong with aero, i rather liked it for the short time i goofed off with vista`
`05:16.24`	`Tain`	`The best thing the UI can do is get out of my way.`
`05:16.26`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I don't know. If you ask me Vista will be a big hit`
`05:16.38`	`cladhaire`	`for a small number of people.`
`05:16.42`	`[Cu]Werik`	`If not at start, later`
`05:16.43`	`cladhaire`	`that's the concern i have`
`05:16.45`	`Tain`	`Of course it will, people have no choice.`
`05:17.15`	`Tain`	`It will be a big hit as MS pushes it down peoples throats and discontinue support for XP. It's really the corporate level that drives it.`
`05:17.34`	`[Cu]Werik`	`But you can't say it's not better than XP`
`05:17.46`	`Tain`	`There are things that are much better than XP.`
`05:17.50`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Without pushing things you would sit still for ages`
`05:18.08`	`Tain`	`And there are things, like the pervasive DRM, that are bad for everyone.`
`05:18.53`	`[Cu]Werik`	`We will see how it works out`
`05:18.53`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight_ (n=ckknight@rrcs-74-62-251-185.west.biz.rr.com)`
`05:19.02`	`Tain`	`Then there are things in the middle. The Aero UI will certainly appeal to many, I personally think it's a step in the wrong direction to go so graphically intensive with just the UI.`
`05:19.04`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Didn't really notice it in the RC versions`
`05:19.20`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Tain, its not intensive`
`05:19.39`	`Tain`	`You don't have to wait to see how it works out, it's a foregone conclusion. Poeple will use Vista, XP will die out. That's just a matter of time.`
`05:19.47`	`[Cu]Werik`	`It has basically no impact on performance`
`05:19.56`	`Tain`	`That is not true.`
`05:19.59`	`[Cu]Werik`	`ANd you can turn it off`
`05:20.02`	`cladhaire`	`if your machine can support it.`
`05:20.07`	`cladhaire`	`which invalidates the statement =)`
`05:20.19`	`[Cu]Werik`	`A geforce 6600 can run it without any problems`
`05:20.44`	`XLVII`	`My school, I work as an IT Technician, just bought all hp Vista-compatible machines.`
`05:20.49`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Maybe even worse cards I dont know, I had no issues at all on a 6600`
`05:21.01`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge quoin (n=quoin@219-90-231-47.ip.adam.com.au)`
`05:21.04`	`Tain`	`There are other things that I'm willing to chalk up to personal perference as long as I can change.`
`05:21.08`	`XLVII`	`They run Vista, with Aero, without a hassle.`
`05:21.09`	`cladhaire`	`the average dsktop pc.. which is what we're talking about has nowhere near a 6600`
`05:21.24`	`Tain`	`Like the Start - Run box being a search box by default, that drove me absolutely mad.`
`05:21.26`	`MentalPower`	`doesn't Aero run pretty much only on the GPU?`
`05:21.49`	`[Cu]Werik`	`it does`
`05:22.01`	`[Cu]Werik`	`well, its a directx application`
`05:23.12`	`[Cu]Werik`	`And as I said, you can turn it off:)`
`05:24.15`	`XLVII`	`I can't even remember when I last used a poper 'Appearance`
`05:24.19`	`ckknight`	`http://www.kluc.com/zoo_content/Sexual%20Consent%20Long%20Form.pdf`
`05:24.27`	`[Cu]Werik`	`Actually, vista turns it on and off dynamically. I was rendering some movie and playing wow in windowed mode and I think It turned Aero off automatically`
`05:24.49`	`XLVII`	`proper 'Appearance', I've always seemed to use Windows Classic Style`
`05:25.19`	`[Cu]Werik`	`if you run a game in windowed mode, but in full screen window, it turns aero off as well`
`05:26.05`	`SP\|Sorren`	`what if you have multiple monitors`
`05:26.23`	`[Cu]Werik`	`I have two`
`05:26.32`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Wow, 372 messages!`
`05:26.34`	`[Cu]Werik`	`turns if off on both obviously`
`05:26.46`	`SP\|Sorren`	`ah.`
`05:35.10`	`cladhaire`	`night all`
`05:35.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-179-20-11.austin.res.rr.com)`
`05:43.18`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kaelten (n=user@c-68-63-37-246.hsd1.al.comcast.net)`
`05:47.07`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge iamhef (n=Hef@69.150.58.199)`
`05:47.51`	`iamhef`	`anyone alive in here? :)`
`05:48.14`	`MentalPower`	`maybe`
`05:48.15`	`iamhef`	`hrmm...`
`05:48.29`	`iamhef`	`yah! we got a live one!`
`05:48.55`	`iamhef`	`i was just wondering if there was a UI dev guild formed in the BC beta?`
`05:49.02`	`Shadowed`	`see the topic!`
`05:49.21`	`iamhef`	`oh hellfire IS the beta server`
`05:49.24`	`iamhef`	`d'oh!`
`05:49.36`	`iamhef`	`i was thinking that was a non-beta server`
`05:49.40`	`iamhef`	`ty vm!`
`05:49.49`	`MentalPower`	`heh, np`
`05:50.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Thunder_Child (i=user@cpe-76-169-211-70.socal.res.rr.com)`
`05:50.19`	`grimman\|z0r`	`That'd be the day, letting beta testers in on live servers. :)�`
`05:50.29`	`Kaso`	`Tempest EU > Hellfire US :>`
`05:50.31`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Imagine the panic in the cities when a level 70 ported in.`
`05:52.13`	`iamhef`	`lol`
`05:52.27`	`iamhef`	`well it looks like only one person is on, alli side`
`05:52.41`	`grimman\|z0r`	`/who 1-70`
`05:52.42`	`grimman\|z0r`	`:P`
`05:52.55`	`iamhef`	`no, no, i mean in CastSpell`
`05:53.02`	`MentalPower`	`~logs`
`05:53.04`	`purl`	`apt/ibot/jbot/purl all log to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian \| lines that start with a space are not shown \| some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz, or updated "nightly"`
`05:54.09`	`iamhef`	`has anyone been having problems with the FrameXML loader randomly rejecting files? possibly for related to the textfile format (ANSI vs UTF-8, etc)?`
`06:01.21`	`Kaso`	`anyone happen to be online on live atm?`
`06:01.40`	`Mike-N-Go`	`You mean wow 1.12.x?`
`06:01.57`	`Kaso`	`mmhm`
`06:02.08`	`Kaso`	`can you test something for me?`
`06:02.17`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Sure.`
`06:02.20`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I am.`
`06:02.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`What is it you want tested?`
`06:02.46`	`Kaso`	`give a mob a raidtarget, kill it, then target it and see what GetRaidTargetIndex("target") returns`
`06:03.22`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Umm, how do I do all that?`
`06:03.34`	`Kaso`	`1) join a party`
`06:03.51`	`Mike-N-Go`	`You meen a raid icon?`
`06:03.55`	`Kaso`	`yah`
`06:04.12`	`Mike-N-Go`	`OK`
`06:04.25`	`Mike-N-Go`	`What all am I to do?`
`06:04.32`	`Kaso`	`raid icon a mob`
`06:04.33`	`Kaso`	`kill it`
`06:04.55`	`Kaso`	`then target it and do /run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(GetRaidTargetIndex("target"))`
`06:05.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge [quoin] (n=quoin@219-90-231-47.ip.adam.com.au)`
`06:05.36`	`Mike-N-Go`	`OK, let me find a person.`
`06:06.27`	`Xuerian`	`Mike-N-Go: You might want to get devtools, too. It gives you a /dump <whatever> shortcut. =)`
`06:06.30`	`Xuerian`	`~devtools`
`06:06.31`	`purl`	`methinks devtools is Iriel's DevTools, a highly useful set of debugging tools for developers on WoW. Found at http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=3999 Why isn't it in the default client yet?`
`06:06.42`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I have these devtools`
`06:06.56`	`Kaso`	`then do /dump GetRaidTargetIndex("target") :>`
`06:07.03`	`Xuerian`	`^_^`
`06:07.05`	`Mike-N-Go`	`1 returns`
`06:07.20`	`Kaso`	`was it 1-8 ?`
`06:07.42`	`Kaso`	`oh`
`06:07.48`	`Kaso`	`1 is the return`
`06:07.51`	`Kaso`	`interesting`
`06:07.53`	`Mike-N-Go`	`DevTools: value=GetRaidTargetIndex("target")`
`06:07.58`	`Mike-N-Go`	`[1]=1`
`06:08.10`	`Kaso`	`interesting indeed`
`06:08.17`	`Mike-N-Go`	`I used start`
`06:08.20`	`Mike-N-Go`	`star*`
`06:08.29`	`Kaso`	`thanks for that`
`06:08.43`	`Kaso`	`i didnt know that corpses keep the raidtaget index`
`06:08.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`[1]=8 for skul`
`06:09.07`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Well, the raidtarget remains on the corpse.`
`06:10.26`	`Kaso`	`thats odd, i alway though it was cleared when a mob died`
`06:11.50`	`Kaso`	`i just saw that behavour on beta and wanted to check that was same on live`
`06:12.00`	`Kaso`	`thanks for the help :>`
`06:15.41`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`~lart cair`
`06:15.43`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`~lart Cairenn`
`06:15.48`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`~bzfrag Cairenn`
`06:16.05`	`Mike-N-Go`	`~lart esamynn`
`06:16.08`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`~whaleslap Cairenn`
`06:19.25`	`iamhef`	`~lart purl`
`06:19.31`	`iamhef`	`lol`
`06:20.08`	`Kaso`	`i sense Esamynn\|raiding is trying to get cairenn's attention`
`06:20.25`	`Cairenn`	`he's got it`
`06:20.39`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`I was punishing her! :P`
`06:20.45`	`Cairenn`	`he's mad at me because I edited the post where I told people off`
`06:21.24`	`Shadowed`	`bad cair`
`06:21.25`	`Kaso`	`you told people off? good on you people were giving you too much shit on the forums`
`06:21.28`	`Shadowed`	`~lart Cairenn`
`06:22.02`	`iamhef`	`are we talking about the official ui/macro forums?`
`06:22.03`	`Cairenn`	`and on the two threads on wowi`
`06:22.05`	`Cairenn`	`I'd copied it to all three threads`
`06:22.11`	`Cairenn`	`but I took it back down`
`06:22.24`	`iamhef`	`didn't see those...the official one went south fast tho (not referring to your post, didn't see it)`
`06:22.24`	`Xuerian`	`Aww :(`
`06:22.27`	`Kaso`	`out of curiousity, what;d you say?`
`06:22.29`	`Xuerian`	`And you didn't let us see it first?`
`06:22.29`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`~bzfrag Cairenn`
`06:22.36`	`iamhef`	`all i knows is i get 2 beta keys so it worked for me... =\`
`06:22.37`	`Shadowed`	`"Fuck off you ungrateful idiots"`
`06:22.41`	`Cairenn`	`http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33831&postcount=121`
`06:22.42`	`iamhef`	`lol`
`06:22.46`	`[Wobin]`	`The 'I'm ashamed of you' one?`
`06:22.51`	`Cairenn`	`aye`
`06:22.54`	`Guillotine`	`iamhef: I got 2 as well`
`06:23.21`	`Guillotine`	`I would guess thats one from WoWI then one from the random peopel their giving it to`
`06:23.33`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`purl, are you mad at me?`
`06:23.38`	`iamhef`	`damn... nice rant ;)`
`06:23.55`	`Cairenn`	`I think my follow up is even better, to be honest :p`
`06:24.03`	`Shadowed`	`Why do they have a policy to only send out the key 3 times anyway`
`06:24.06`	`Cairenn`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=42775343&sid=1&pageNo=11`
`06:24.12`	`Cairenn`	`2 times, they're breaking it`
`06:24.25`	`Shadowed`	`wait, they only send it out once, you got them to send it out twice and a third time?`
`06:24.31`	`Cairenn`	`yes`
`06:24.36`	`Cairenn`	`trying to fix it`
`06:24.54`	`Cairenn`	`which is why some people have gotten 2 keys, and will likely end up with a third`
`06:25.02`	`Cairenn`	`they generate new keys each time`
`06:25.08`	`Shadowed`	`ah`
`06:25.21`	`Cairenn`	`which is why they don't like doing it`
`06:25.41`	`Shadowed`	`ah`
`06:26.07`	`iamhef`	`has anyone ever brought up the fact that maybe these people just entered their e-mail address incorrectly?`
`06:26.20`	`Cairenn`	`they can check them themselves, on our site`
`06:26.22`	`Shadowed`	`i'm 100% sure my email is correct`
`06:26.26`	`Cairenn`	`go hit the button again`
`06:26.50`	`iamhef`	`aye... but that doesn't mean they have done so :P`
`06:27.02`	`Cairenn`	`well, that's there problem, isn't it?`
`06:27.10`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`a suspicious mind would wonder if they are purposely abusing the system.....`
`06:27.14`	`Cairenn`	`but I know that keys haven't shown up`
`06:27.25`	`iamhef`	`it is... but it might helps things along to smack em up side the head and so "go check it biznitch"`
`06:27.28`	`iamhef`	`*say`
`06:27.44`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge AnduinLothar (n=AnduinLo@ip68-106-219-78.oc.oc.cox.net)`
`06:27.44`	`iamhef`	`esa: i did wonder that myself`
`06:27.45`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight_ (n=ckknight@rrcs-74-62-251-185.west.biz.rr.com)`
`06:28.10`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`iamhef: i'm just joking`
`06:28.11`	`iamhef`	`though i'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt b/c if they are telling the truth that would really suck to be them`
`06:28.19`	`iamhef`	`oh lol, i wasn't :P`
`06:28.26`	`Kaso`	`CTProfiles.net - You have requested your password be reset. ( no i didnt ! )`
`06:28.26`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`they had no way of knowing that they regened keys each time they did a batch`
`06:28.29`	`iamhef`	`i have a highly developed sense of paranoia tho ;)`
`06:29.17`	`iamhef`	`hmm... maybe`
`06:30.00`	`iamhef`	`so now that ppl are talking, i'll throw out my question again...`
`06:30.14`	`Cairenn`	`quick everyone, hide`
`06:30.21`	`iamhef`	`has anyone seen FrameXML randomly have problems with loading lua files?`
`06:30.42`	`iamhef`	`like i've had a few instances where FrameXML gives "Error Loading xxx" (no other clues)`
`06:30.58`	`iamhef`	`and i can completely empty the file out and it will still have errors`
`06:31.09`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`iamhef: you mean an error in the FrameXML.log file?`
`06:31.16`	`iamhef`	`aye, that one`
`06:31.39`	`Esamynn\|raiding`	`where are you trying to load it from, a TOC or an XML file?`
`06:31.41`	`Kaso`	`XML files are yucky!`
`06:31.45`	`iamhef`	`toc`
`06:32.06`	`iamhef`	`i've fixed it twice but i still don't know how... lol`
`06:32.30`	`iamhef`	`it's maaaaagiiic`
`06:37.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge cogwheel (n=chatzill@c-67-188-231-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`06:38.26`	`Kaso`	`but Cairenn, im glad you stood up for yourself, i do understand it must be annoy for those whove missed out and i understand youre annoyed people have missed out, but you were getting entirely too much shit about all this.`
`06:38.45`	`Xuerian`	`Seconded =\|`
`06:39.05`	`iamhef`	`yeah i'll agree... they should not have been directing their anger at you`
`06:39.08`	`Shadowed`	`I don't really care that I didn't get a key actually`
`06:39.17`	`Cairenn`	`they haven't been`
`06:39.24`	`Cairenn`	`no one has been "blaming" me`
`06:39.38`	`Cairenn`	`but the crap they've been spewing against Blizz is ridiculous`
`06:39.41`	`iamhef`	`oh well good then... perhaps i should pay more attention to these things :P`
`06:40.25`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Ohh, link? ^^`
`06:40.47`	`Cairenn`	`as I said in the Blizz thread, I agree that there are problems, but there are ways of expressing your dissatisfaction that are acceptable, and ways that aren't`
`06:41.11`	`Kaso`	`mmhm`
`06:41.30`	`Cairenn`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=42775343&sid=1`
`06:41.38`	`Cairenn`	`that is the thread that has me most upset`
`06:41.48`	`iamhef`	`true, but blizz doesn't always have the best track records when it comes to delivery... so maybe their taking frustration from past events and lumping it in with the present`
`06:43.28`	`iamhef`	`who here uses Ace or Ace2?`
`06:44.30`	`Kaso`	`iamhef #wowace might be of some help :>`
`06:44.42`	`iamhef`	`oh....... perhaps so :P`
`06:44.56`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Cairenn, /clap`
`06:47.26`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-179-20-11.austin.res.rr.com)`
`06:47.31`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Hmm - where did the beta mods go?`
`06:47.44`	`Cairenn`	`http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat89.html`
`06:48.06`	`malreth`	`Cairenn!`
`06:48.07`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Awesome, ty`
`06:48.18`	`Cairenn`	`malreth: !`
`06:48.31`	`Kaso`	`the mod im writing for beta is currently causing wow to hang on pew :< not so good`
`06:48.33`	`malreth`	`I wanted to tell you, "Thanks."`
`06:48.40`	`Cairenn`	`hmmm?`
`06:48.42`	`malreth`	`For your hard work and dedication.`
`06:48.52`	`Shadowed`	`Kaso: whatcha doing`
`06:49.07`	`Kaso`	`a mod to estimate if it's "safe" to SW:Death`
`06:49.09`	`Cairenn`	`malreth: thanks hun :)`
`06:49.21`	`Shadowed`	`what are you doing that it's lagging on PEW? :p`
`06:49.53`	`Kaso`	`not quite sure, i guess its UNIT_STATS or SPELLS_CHANGED`
`06:49.53`	`ScytheBlade1`	`asdf, Cide isn't here :(`
`06:50.03`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Anyone know if he has a working copy of CT_MailMod for beta?`
`06:50.10`	`Cairenn`	`ScytheBlade1: he'd be sleeping at this point`
`06:50.25`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I copied my main + my bank.. three times`
`06:50.32`	`ScytheBlade1`	`And this is a LOT of mats to mail over ;P`
`06:50.37`	`Kaso`	`ScytheBlade1 theres a CT mod version up on wowi's bet section that works`
`06:50.38`	`Cairenn`	`there's a CT mod in the category`
`06:50.49`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Ah, that could be it`
`06:50.53`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I just searched for MailMod`
`06:51.16`	`Kaso`	`cide uploaded is as a package`
`06:51.26`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Yup, he sure did`
`06:51.27`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Thanks`
`06:51.33`	`Cairenn`	`found it?`
`06:51.36`	`Kaso`	`btw fyi i belive the current mastermod taints the petbar`
`06:51.37`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I sure did`
`06:51.44`	`Cairenn`	`k`
`06:51.44`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Eh, I only need MailMod`
`06:52.11`	`Kaso`	`well its all dependent`
`06:52.31`	`ScytheBlade1`	`It's an OptionalDep for MailMod`
`06:52.40`	`Kaso`	`oh, well np`
`06:52.46`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Exactly :)`
`06:53.04`	`Kaso`	`its not a huge issue to me as a priest, but if youre a hunter mage or warlock it could cause probs`
`06:53.18`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Mage`
`06:53.19`	`ScytheBlade1`	`But eh`
`06:53.24`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Also specced fire`
`06:53.34`	`Shadowed`	`or a shaman!`
`06:54.41`	`Kaso`	`Cide said hes re-writeing most of it for tbc so it should all be good`
`06:55.01`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I'll be honest: I only use CT_MailMod, and CTRA`
`06:55.04`	`ScytheBlade1`	`And MailMod works :)`
`06:55.27`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Saves SO MUCH TIME`
`06:56.28`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`not in beta it doesn't`
`06:56.57`	`ScytheBlade1`	`... on the beta`
`06:57.31`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`try sending 10 items out`
`06:57.42`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`mine takes a dump on me when I try it`
`06:57.56`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I sent 21+2 three times`
`06:57.58`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Works fine`
`06:58.02`	`ScytheBlade1`	`http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=5360`
`07:01.12`	`Kaso`	`7AM :< i should go to bed`
`07:01.27`	`Kaso`	`OR! i could get breakfast early!`
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`07:29.03`	`cogwheel`	`anyone know where ally class trainers are in Outland?`
`07:29.28`	`Guillotine`	`there are no class trainers in outland`
`07:29.36`	`cogwheel`	`:(`
`07:29.49`	`Guillotine`	`go to Sartrath and use the portal to IF or Darn or wherever`
`07:30.00`	`Kaso`	`that seems to be question No.1`
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`07:36.46`	`hellimod`	`are there any wowwiki admins available right now for discussion?`
`07:39.09`	`Guillotine`	`g2g, gn all :)`
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`07:39.39`	`Guillotine`	`hellimod: I believe many of the wowwiki admins are US, so try slightly earlier in the day`
`07:40.02`	`hellimod`	`thanks for the information`
`07:40.22`	`Kaso`	`Kirkburn is EU and might be around in a few hours`
`07:40.30`	`Cairenn`	`night guys`
`07:41.06`	`Kaso`	`sleep is for the weak!`
`07:41.11`	`Kaso`	`(night)`
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`07:52.30`	`*** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Dolby-wowi] by ChanServ`
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`07:53.03`	`*** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Dolby-wowi] by ChanServ`
`07:55.02`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Awesome, I just completly borked my rep`
`07:55.21`	`Adrine`	`?`
`07:55.37`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Khadgar lets you choose BOTH the Aldor and the Scryers..`
`07:55.55`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Likewise, they're both bumped to neutral, instead of one hostile and one friendly`
`07:56.14`	`ScytheBlade1`	`.. talk to a leader, you'll lose 10 rep with the other faction, and not gain enough to pick up any faction quests :(`
`07:58.45`	`Kaso`	`arent there any mobs you can grind to get rep`
`07:58.52`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Probably`
`07:58.55`	`ScytheBlade1`	`But that's a heck of a grind`
`08:00.36`	`Kaso`	`hmm`
`08:00.46`	`Kaso`	`you cant Un-socket gems?`
`08:00.48`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Either way, I /bug'd it`
`08:00.49`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Nope`
`08:01.06`	`Kaso`	`didnt realse that`
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`08:11.51`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Heh, awesome.. 180 LBS`
`08:12.05`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Wait, no`
`08:12.18`	`ScytheBlade1`	`236 LBS`
`08:12.38`	`ScytheBlade1`	`And 171 Illusion Dust`
`08:12.43`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Hello enchanting power level`
`08:13.57`	`cogwheel`	`g'night`
`08:26.27`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Kyahx (n=kyahx@144.13.213.102)`
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`08:48.05`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Humm, AMD does not like auctioneer.`
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`08:48.44`	`Mike-N-Go`	`Is there a way to dump the error log into something I can copy with devtools?`
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`09:36.08`	`nevcairiel`	`hmm, i cant make keybindings to my actionbar addon, it always ends up saying that i was just blocked from doing something bad`
`09:36.25`	`nevcairiel`	`is there any hidden trick?`
`09:36.37`	`nevcairiel`	`(in TBC)`
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`09:37.46`	`Thunder_Child`	`prolly, secure templates + tainting is enough to ive anyone a headache`
`09:38.24`	`nevcairiel`	`ive managed to get nearly everything working with my secure template actionbar now`
`09:38.26`	`Thunder_Child`	`s/ive/give/`
`09:38.27`	`nevcairiel`	`only not keybindings`
`09:38.56`	`Thunder_Child`	`but keybindings cant change in combat if they are tainted`
`09:39.24`	`Thunder_Child`	`or soemthing like that`
`09:39.46`	`nevcairiel`	`i dont want to change them, i added a Bindings.xml with some static keybindings, and call my buttondown function from there, basicly like the blizz bar does it, and i get a blocked message`
`09:41.22`	`nevcairiel`	`i wonder if there is some secure binding in the templates somewhere`
`09:41.32`	`Thunder_Child`	`kinda makes you wish Iriel\|Away was here doesnt it`
`09:42.04`	`cncfanatics`	`nevcairiel`
`09:42.08`	`cncfanatics`	`you can't do it like that`
`09:42.25`	`nevcairiel`	`how can i do it?`
`09:42.26`	`nevcairiel`	`:)`
`09:42.34`	`cncfanatics`	`SetBindingClick on the PLAYER_LOGIN would do the thing you want, but then u'll have to manage bindings urself, they won't appear in the keybinding section from blizz`
`09:42.54`	`nevcairiel`	`and, if i want them to appear there?`
`09:42.58`	`cncfanatics`	`no idea :)`
`09:46.17`	`nevcairiel`	`basicly every addon which has some form of key-toggle needs that`
`09:46.23`	`nevcairiel`	`there must be a way :)`
`09:52.13`	`cncfanatics`	`A keytoggle shldnt be suposed to run securestuff -.-`
`09:53.16`	`nevcairiel`	`it needs to be able to call a spell`
`09:53.18`	`Kaligar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`09:54.09`	`cncfanatics`	`u can't use CastSpell directly`
`09:54.16`	`cncfanatics`	`u need to use secureframes & SetBindingCLick`
`09:54.33`	`nevcairiel`	`so basicly i need my own binding setup?`
`09:54.37`	`nevcairiel`	`that somewhat sucks :(`
`09:55.13`	`cncfanatics`	`a slashcommand wld do if its not complicated :p`
`09:55.25`	`cncfanatics`	`i'd like a GetBindingClick command from blizz though`
`09:55.34`	`cncfanatics`	`its anoying to have to save what the binding is set to manualy`
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`09:55.46`	`nevcairiel`	`you can do GetBindingKey("CLICK "..self.frame:GetName()..":LeftButton");`
`09:56.00`	`cncfanatics`	`you can ? :o`
`09:56.07`	`cncfanatics`	`oooh, great :p`
`09:57.23`	`nevcairiel`	`yeah i use it to show the keybinding on my button`
`09:57.45`	`nevcairiel`	`meh, i need some simple UI for keybindings`
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`12:07.11`	`teomyr`	`hmm`
`12:07.47`	`teomyr`	`how can i find out which pet a warlock has currently summoned? voidwalker, imp etc.`
`12:11.17`	`teomyr`	`aah... nvm, UnitCreatureFamily("pet")`
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`13:28.15`	`Industrial`	`Cairenn\|afk: ping`
`13:28.23`	`Cairenn\|afk`	`Industrial: pong`
`13:28.42`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Fake afk tag... shame on you. :P`
`13:35.42`	`Industrial`	`whats a z0r tag then`
`13:35.52`	`Industrial`	`;P`
`13:37.33`	`Cairenn\|afk`	`as opposed to afkzor`
`13:37.53`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Well... it's just afkz0r without the afk part. ;)`
`13:38.00`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Figured I'd be clever.`
`13:38.14`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Call it lurker mode if you will.`
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`13:45.01`	`Corrodias`	`WELL time to go to bed`
`13:45.21`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Ten-four. Good night, commander.`
`14:00.17`	`Industrial`	`http://www.imagesocket.com/view/WoWScrnShot_111106_1456060f0.jpg`
`14:00.17`	`Industrial`	`yay castingbar`
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`14:01.07`	`grimman\|z0r`	`That's... less than beautiful. :P`
`14:01.49`	`Industrial`	`:<`
`14:02.23`	`Industrial`	`least its small clear and usable`
`14:02.57`	`grimman\|z0r`	`True.`
`14:03.18`	`grimman\|z0r`	`I've been working on some unitframes of my own, I assume the cast bar is a part of yours.`
`14:03.37`	`grimman\|z0r`	`"my own" would be pushing it a bit though. ;)`
`14:04.58`	`Industrial`	`no its not part of the unitframes`
`14:05.14`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Oh. Same style though. :)`
`14:05.14`	`Industrial`	`i do anchor it to the unitframes`
`14:05.21`	`Industrial`	`cause tis the same addon`
`14:05.21`	`Industrial`	`:P`
`14:05.34`	`grimman\|z0r`	`So... it's part of it after all.`
`14:05.53`	`Industrial`	`the addon is my whole interface`
`14:06.13`	`Industrial`	`figured if im going to make an interface why not put it all into one and be done with all the hassle of configuring things`
`14:06.14`	`grimman\|z0r`	`That's what I mean. :)`
`14:06.45`	`Industrial`	`http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?s=&id=5605`
`14:07.36`	`Industrial`	`how could i make ite better`
`14:07.45`	`Industrial`	`always looking for criticism :P`
`14:08.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge quoin (n=quoin@219-90-254-157.ip.adam.com.au)`
`14:08.29`	`grimman\|z0r`	`If you're looking for a project to waste time, do something about the Blizzard World PVP timers.`
`14:08.48`	`Industrial`	`no how could i make my interface better`
`14:08.56`	`Industrial`	`< grimman\|z0r> That's... less than beautiful. :P`
`14:09.10`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Oh well, obviously you need to do something about the minimap.`
`14:09.45`	`grimman\|z0r`	`You can square it pretty damn easy and remove the border. Instant pornification. ;D`
`14:10.09`	`Industrial`	`yeah but I dont like the buttons to still be moving around in a circle`
`14:10.26`	`Industrial`	`i can move the default ones`
`14:11.23`	`grimman\|z0r`	`I hide most buttons, as long as they have a slash command... only leaves a few ones that can be replicated through FuBar addons or simply moved with DFM.`
`14:12.19`	`Industrial`	`as you see im hiding most of the default buttons`
`14:12.23`	`grimman\|z0r`	`simpleMinimap makes the buttons move in a square, but they're still attached to a "track" around the minimap itself.`
`14:12.28`	`Industrial`	`just not the tracking frame and the battleground timer`
`14:12.33`	`Industrial`	`i have mousewheel zooming etc`
`14:12.41`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Zooming ftl. ;P`
`14:13.07`	`Industrial`	`its handy when you have tradking in a crowded area`
`14:13.11`	`Industrial`	`tracking*`
`14:13.36`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Up until I got simpleMinimap I had "disabled" zooming and only allowed pings via right click. :)`
`14:14.30`	`Industrial`	`im playing with the idea of removing the button bar background`
`14:14.35`	`Industrial`	`and creating a new one`
`14:14.45`	`Industrial`	`the height of the buttons, across the bottom of my screen`
`14:14.49`	`Industrial`	`but.. everyone has that :`
`14:15.09`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Hm?`
`14:15.17`	`grimman\|z0r`	`I don't see any background in the screen you linked.`
`14:15.37`	`Industrial`	`yes you do..`
`14:15.40`	`Industrial`	`the button bar`
`14:15.58`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Dooh.`
`14:16.02`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Wrong screen.`
`14:18.06`	`grimman\|z0r`	`http://loot.dlxmedia.net/WoWScrnShot_110906_112835.JPG << My beta UI. Didn't bother with the minimap too much. Tbh I don't like it very much, but it's pretty close to a concept I made a while back.`
`14:18.28`	`grimman\|z0r`	`http://loot.dlxmedia.net/?WoWScrnShot_110906_112835.JPG if the link doesn't open properly... crud webhost.`
`14:21.07`	`grimman\|z0r`	`http://loot.dlxmedia.net/?WoWScrnShot_102406_215235.JPG << My live server UI. :)`
`14:22.57`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight__ (n=ckknight@rrcs-74-62-251-185.west.biz.rr.com)`
`14:23.05`	`Industrial`	`id remove the button borders and make em large like mine :P`
`14:24.29`	`grimman\|z0r`	`It grew a bit beyond how I intended it to look. ;)`
`14:24.59`	`grimman\|z0r`	`The buttons are mostly visible so I can see the cooldowns, I have all the important stuff hotkeyed.`
`14:25.44`	`grimman\|z0r`	`And two hidden menus that can be summoned with another pair of hotkeys. ;D`
`14:34.49`	`Industrial`	`hmm k`
`14:35.06`	`grimman\|z0r`	`:P`
`14:35.16`	`grimman\|z0r`	`I love my hotkeys.`
`14:39.47`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Arrowmaster (i=Arrow@cpe-24-209-111-105.woh.res.rr.com)`
`14:41.11`	`grimman\|z0r`	`You know... I think I may make an UI that shows only abilities with cooldowns, having the rest hotkeyed.`
`14:42.10`	`Industrial`	`you can also use a cooldown bar timer addon`
`14:42.17`	`Industrial`	`oCD by haste for example`
`14:42.20`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Got an up to date link?`
`14:42.25`	`Industrial`	`wowace.com`
`14:42.29`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Checking.`
`14:43.50`	`grimman\|z0r`	`You mean OCB?`
`14:43.54`	`haste`	`no, he means oCD`
`14:43.55`	`Industrial`	`no`
`14:44.13`	`grimman\|z0r`	`http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Category:Author:Haste << Lists only oCB and oRA.`
`14:44.22`	`grimman\|z0r`	`And /wave haste.`
`14:44.24`	`haste`	`http://wowace.com/files/oCD/`
`14:44.25`	`haste`	`lists oCD`
`14:45.01`	`haste`	`It doesn't work with all actionbars tho', as I don't want to scan the spellbook everytime someone smashes a button`
`14:45.15`	`haste`	`or a new cooldown is triggered`
`14:45.45`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Is that what the other bar mods to anyway?`
`14:46.06`	`haste`	`other cooldown mods at least`
`14:46.24`	`haste`	`so if it doesn't work for you, either use another cooldown add on, or switch to one of the supported actionbars :)`
`14:46.57`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Currently using Bartended which I believe only modifies Blizzard stuff... that's what it feels like anyway. :)`
`14:47.16`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Bartender*`
`14:49.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Wobin (i=Wobin@218-214-59-86.people.net.au)`
`14:49.19`	`Industrial`	`hmm, in tbc you cant make one button do more things right? but you can display what key to press (along with the spellname) on the screen`
`14:49.37`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Right.`
`14:49.47`	`Industrial`	`would that be nice to havE?`
`14:49.49`	`Industrial`	`i dunno`
`14:49.51`	`Industrial`	`:p`
`14:50.13`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Doubtful... but I dunno, I can't think if any situation where I'd need it personally.`
`14:51.19`	`Industrial`	`could be handy with things like execute`
`14:52.56`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Looks like oCD was ~what I needed. :)`
`14:53.47`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Only one thing that annoys me.`
`14:54.01`	`grimman\|z0r`	`When I pop a trap, I get cooldown bars for all my traps.`
`14:55.25`	`Wobin`	`omg`
`14:55.31`	`Wobin`	`I love the male draenei voice`
`14:55.58`	`Tain`	`He's so dreamy!`
`14:56.51`	`Wobin`	`totally!`
`14:57.05`	`Wobin`	`Of course, I've always had a thing for the slavic accent`
`14:58.26`	`grimman\|z0r`	`http://loot.dlxmedia.net/?HAHAHAHA_hahahahah_aaaaaah.mp3 << Can't listen to that too often. ;)`
`15:05.29`	`haste`	`grimman\|z0r: yeh, it will be added grouping`
`15:06.26`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Goodie.`
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`15:30.11`	`grimman\|z0r`	`Mm, smells like a bakery here.`
`15:30.14`	`grimman\|z0r`	`It's my duty to drool.`
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`16:32.06`	`thezanke`	`is there a mod dev guild in BC?`
`16:32.40`	`Amadeo`	`topic`
`16:33.30`	`\|Shadow\|`	`such a brilliant keyboard <3`
`16:33.36`	`Mikma`	`Tempest Keep: Alliance = CastSpell, Horde = TargetUnit`
`16:34.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@208.104.133.240)`
`16:35.09`	`MentalPower`	`and Hellfire too (same names)`
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`16:45.47`	`Industrial`	`Question: How do I get this bottom bar to be under the chatframe? http://www.imagesocket.com/view/WoWScrnShot_111106_173914ac7.jpg`
`16:46.58`	`Amadeo`	`\|Shadow\|: How do you like the type feel?`
`16:48.28`	`Industrial`	`nm got it`
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`17:00.45`	`Amadeo`	`Windows Media Player 11 loads pretty fast, I'm surprised`
`17:01.51`	`Kirkburn`	`The 'update' that was released yesterday?`
`17:01.53`	`Industrial`	`Media Player Classic ftw`
`17:01.54`	`MentalPower`	`is it out of beta?`
`17:02.10`	`Industrial`	`and foobar2000 :p`
`17:02.13`	`Kirkburn`	`MentalPower, yup`
`17:02.30`	`Amadeo`	`yeah, I use all that stuff too (fb2k, etc)`
`17:02.35`	`Amadeo`	`I just like to play with software :)`
`17:03.37`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Winamp ftw. :P`
`17:04.00`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`For audio of course... MPC for video.`
`17:07.12`	`MentalPower`	`I use Winamp for Audio, MPC for video and WMP for ripping CDs`
`17:07.39`	`Amadeo`	`Exact Audio Copy for ripping CDs <3`
`17:07.58`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Amadeo: :)`
`17:09.15`	`Tain`	`EAC for ripping, VLC for video, Foobar for audio.`
`17:13.20`	`Amadeo`	`I've tried VLC a few times`
`17:13.25`	`Amadeo`	`but something always makes me go to another app`
`17:13.32`	`Amadeo`	`I forget what that something is now :P`
`17:14.29`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Last time I tried VLC it felt kinda slow and crashed once or twice too.`
`17:14.59`	`Amadeo`	`it does feel slow`
`17:15.17`	`Amadeo`	`I had some problems playing video files too`
`17:15.32`	`Amadeo`	`Something about the audio/video wasn't synced up right so it wouldn't play the video`
`17:15.39`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`o_o`
`17:15.45`	`Amadeo`	`Which is fine, but other players would play it anyway`
`17:15.55`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Yeah.`
`17:16.10`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`And syncing is easy in MPC. :)`
`17:17.04`	`\|FF\|Im2good4u`	`hmm it seems i cant see if an item can hold cocoets by looking at the tiem link i cna only see if there are sockets inside it`
`17:18.02`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`cocoets << ?`
`17:18.52`	`\|FF\|Im2good4u`	`sockets sorry :p'`
`17:19.07`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`-_-`
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`17:23.57`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`http://nostalgia.planethalflife.gamespy.com/halflife/screens/bigtent.jpg << Kinda glad Half Life didn't end up looking like that.`
`17:28.19`	`Kaso`	`its so lifelike!`
`17:30.50`	`zenzelezz`	`did you see the early model of Gordon, which they apparently now call "Ivan the space biker"?`
`17:31.52`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`I have now...`
`17:32.11`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`And I have only one thing to say; WTF?`
`17:32.29`	`Amadeo`	`Wu's Tranquil Fist`
`17:33.00`	`\|FF\|Im2good4u`	`GetNumSockets() <- it doesnt take any parameter it all so i wonder how its gona know witch item to look up for sockets :x`
`17:34.53`	`thezanke`	`anyone have link to BC onebag?`
`17:35.08`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Bagnon works in BC.`
`17:35.11`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Same thing basically.`
`17:39.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight_ (n=ckknight@rrcs-74-62-251-185.west.biz.rr.com)`
`17:41.18`	`MentalPower`	`\|FF\|Im2good4u: prolly the currently open socketed item (Shift+RClick)`
`17:45.31`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge thr (n=thrthr@81-236-4-74-no67.tbcn.telia.com)`
`17:45.49`	`thr`	`Is there any way to move a frame "behind" it's parent? so the parent graphic overlaps the child, and not the other way around?`
`17:48.16`	`\|FF\|Im2good4u`	`u cn set alpha to 0 :P`
`17:48.59`	`Vallerius`	`thr: you should be able to diddle the z-stacking.. this:SetFrameLevel(this:GetFrameLevel() + 1)`
`17:49.07`	`Vallerius`	`or something like that`
`17:49.09`	`Mery`	`thr: only thing I can think of is manually setting :SetFrameLevel to the desired values... and someone beat me`
`17:49.44`	`thr`	`thnx, that should work.`
`17:50.39`	`Kaso`	`~seen hellimod`
`17:50.59`	`purl`	`hellimod <n=joe@S01060014bfed05a5.ed.shawcable.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #wowi-lounge, 10h 10m 57s ago, saying: 'thanks for the information'.`
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`18:19.47`	`*** topic/#wowi-lounge is 2.0 UI Changes http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6832 \| http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#7 \| Paste Code Here: http://wowi.pastey.net/ \| Mod Author guilds on Hellfire (US) and on Tempest Keep (EU). CastSpell (A)/TargetUnit(H) \| TBC Release Date 16 Jan 07`
`18:22.44`	`haste`	`grimman\|herez0r: try MPUI`
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`18:26.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge JoshBork1 (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu)`
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`18:38.44`	`Thunder_Child`	`VLC usual will open all because it uses internal codecs whereas the rest use system codecs`
`18:38.55`	`Thunder_Child`	`s/usual/usualy/`
`19:00.44`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge purl (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt)`
`19:00.44`	`*** topic/#wowi-lounge is 2.0 UI Changes http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6832 \| http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#7 \| Paste Code Here: http://wowi.pastey.net/ \| Mod Author guilds on Hellfire (US) and on Tempest Keep (EU). CastSpell (A)/TargetUnit(H) \| TBC Release Date 16 Jan 07`
`19:02.11`	`Thunder_Child`	`grimman\|herez0r, that looks like a protected/encrypted fi.e`
`19:02.16`	`Thunder_Child`	`file*`
`19:02.34`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Or just generally corrupted.`
`19:02.51`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`If you get the same crap I get that kinda concludes it.`
`19:03.27`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`I just found it odd that such a large amount of the files I downloaded looked like that. Something like 50% of them it turns out.`
`19:04.27`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Ah well... in the end I got to see the other 50% of the files, my codecs are up to date AND optimized for my CPU and I got to try a ton of different media players. ;D`
`19:04.27`	`teomyr`	`try doing md5 checks if the site offers checksums`
`19:04.34`	`teomyr`	`:D`
`19:04.39`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`teomyr: Fileplanet... -_-`
`19:05.01`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`MD5 to them is something like a haxx0r version of MP3 or whatever.`
`19:05.05`	`teomyr`	`lol`
`19:05.14`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`"Wow, yeah, MD5. Totally!"`
`19:05.15`	`Thunder_Child`	`you right, it's coruptded + there is no sound`
`19:05.29`	`Thunder_Child`	`but as far as the sound part goes, there was none to begin with`
`19:05.35`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`I got sound.`
`19:06.03`	`Thunder_Child`	`i ran it through gspot and got no sound info`
`19:06.05`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Some stuff I could make out, but for the most part it was just beeps and stuff.`
`19:06.16`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Doesn't gspot only handle AVIs?`
`19:06.21`	`Thunder_Child`	`nope`
`19:06.24`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Oh.`
`19:06.34`	`Thunder_Child`	`anything that uses a audio/video codec`
`19:06.45`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Well, I deleted the MPEG so I can neither confirm nor deny.`
`19:07.28`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Though I guess I could take the opportunity to update my 3 year old GSpot. ;P`
`19:07.52`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`v2.1 - January, 2003.`
`19:07.52`	`grimman\|herez0r`	`Yay.`
`19:10.51`	`eternally777`	`Silviu-: Check out SacredBuff`
`19:11.08`	`eternally777`	`-.- @ linux irc... mt`
`19:16.15`	`teomyr`	`btw kaso`
`19:16.28`	`teomyr`	`you there?`
`19:19.06`	`Shadowed`	`~seen Kaso`
`19:19.21`	`purl`	`kaso is currently on #wowi-lounge, last said: '~seen hellimod'.`
`19:19.45`	`Shadowed`	`lol`
`19:20.26`	`teomyr`	`:D`
`19:20.26`	`Amadeo`	`anyone have a 60 Shaman?`
`19:20.39`	`teomyr`	`yes`
`19:21.46`	`haste`	`Amadeo: I do`
`19:22.14`	`Amadeo`	`haste: Yeah but you don't count!`
`19:22.23`	`haste`	`:-(`
`19:22.27`	`Amadeo`	`You only PvP twice a year!`
`19:22.31`	`teomyr`	`:D`
`19:22.35`	`haste`	`with my shaman, I don't even touch PvP :D`
`19:22.48`	`haste`	`I haven't logged on my shaman for the last month either so :p`
`19:22.49`	`Amadeo`	`You know I love you though`
`19:23.22`	`Shadowed`	`Amadeo: no, but if it's a pvp question i can probably answer it!`
`19:23.29`	`Amadeo`	`lol`
`19:23.44`	`Amadeo`	`I just don't know what Enhancement Shaman get for stats when leveling up`
`19:23.47`	`Amadeo`	`for PvP`
`19:24.00`	`Amadeo`	`I have Strength and Stamina now, but man, I can heal like twice and I'm out of mana :P`
`19:24.18`	`Shadowed`	`balance it all :p`
`19:24.22`	`Amadeo`	`eww, balance`
`19:24.38`	`teomyr`	`ewww`
`19:24.41`	`Shadowed`	`lol`
`19:25.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge chuckg (n=chuckg@66-237-5-116.starstream.net)`
`19:25.33`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Amadeo, basically until 40 you're stuck getting rogue gear, and at 40 you wanna get all the SM chain`
`19:25.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`then you're kinda screwed till 60s`
`19:26.14`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`cause all the chain from 40-60 is caster shaman or hunter oriented`
`19:26.38`	`Amadeo`	`I want agility over strength?`
`19:26.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No`
`19:27.02`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you get no AP from agility`
`19:27.06`	`Amadeo`	`ok`
`19:27.23`	`Amadeo`	`I'm still 30!`
`19:27.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you'll wanna start collecting the SM chain gear around 38`
`19:28.24`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and if you can get it, the Ravager axe`
`19:28.38`	`Amadeo`	`that's from Herod right?`
`19:28.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yes`
`19:28.47`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Herod is your friend`
`19:28.51`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`he drops 4 items you want`
`19:29.02`	`Amadeo`	`hehe`
`19:29.03`	`teomyr`	`yes :D`
`19:29.39`	`Amadeo`	`he's a lot of fun so far though`
`19:29.40`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Also, you can kill him with just shaman, at lvl 40, if you want`
`19:29.45`	`Amadeo`	`probably more fun than most classes I've played before`
`19:29.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Shaman are great fun`
`19:29.57`	`Amadeo`	`if Windfury procs, I can kill a caster in almost one shot`
`19:29.59`	`teomyr`	`herod can be solo'd quite easily`
`19:30.01`	`Amadeo`	`(at 30)`
`19:30.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`At 40, Teomyr?`
`19:30.25`	`teomyr`	`no xD`
`19:30.27`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Amadeo, you have Corpsemaker right?`
`19:30.32`	`Amadeo`	`no, I have...`
`19:30.39`	`Amadeo`	`Burning War Axe, lol`
`19:30.44`	`Amadeo`	`I haven't instanced yet`
`19:30.45`	`teomyr`	`i solo'd him at 49 to get my leggings :D`
`19:31.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`ahh... at 40, me and 2 shaman farmed him about 8 times`
`19:31.24`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the good thing is, with all his shaman drops, nothing ever got wasted`
`19:31.54`	`teomyr`	`yup`
`19:32.19`	`teomyr`	`Corpsemaker, Ravager, Executioner's Cleaver are very nice shaman weapons imo`
`19:32.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`btw, Amadeo, if you're mainly in it for pvp, 30-39 is the range where shaman really excel`
`19:32.55`	`teomyr`	`agreed`
`19:33.19`	`Amadeo`	`I notice that 30 was a big level`
`19:33.22`	`Amadeo`	`I got great stuff`
`19:33.23`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yes it is`
`19:33.42`	`Amadeo`	`on another note`
`19:33.53`	`Amadeo`	`I've been using this macro on my Warlock, but it doesn't seem to retarget the enemy`
`19:33.58`	`Amadeo`	`/script if (UnitCreatureFamily("pet") == "Felhunter") then TargetUnit("player");CastPetAction(4);TargetLastEnemy();end`
`19:34.08`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Nope`
`19:34.18`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Macros cannot target or cast spells anymore`
`19:34.25`	`ScytheBlade1`	`At least with /script anyways`
`19:34.33`	`Amadeo`	`even in 1.12?`
`19:34.50`	`ScytheBlade1`	`.. oh ;)`
`19:34.57`	`Amadeo`	`hehe`
`19:35.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I think it's targetlasttarget`
`19:35.41`	`Amadeo`	`let me try that`
`19:35.52`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you can still make a macro like that in 2.0, btw`
`19:36.20`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`./cast [pet:Felhunter,target=player] <Pet action 4, whatever it's called>`
`19:36.28`	`ScytheBlade1`	`yup`
`19:36.44`	`teomyr`	`need key -_-`
`19:37.01`	`ScytheBlade1`	`heh, join the club`
`19:37.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`PTR Contest ftw`
`19:37.29`	`teomyr`	`i finished my addon today and signed up for the giveaway :D`
`19:37.39`	`teomyr`	`hunters and warlocks might find it interesting`
`19:38.56`	`Amadeo`	`PTR contest?`
`19:39.19`	`Thunder_Child`	`Public test realm`
`19:39.36`	`Amadeo`	`yeah`
`19:39.37`	`Amadeo`	`what contest?`
`19:39.52`	`teomyr`	`the pvp/leveling contest`
`19:39.52`	`Thunder_Child`	`as many chars to 20...i think`
`19:40.42`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I did the pvp contest`
`19:40.47`	`teomyr`	`a lvl 19 warsong honor contest, and two leveling contest (most chars to lvl 20, first to 50)`
`19:41.02`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the lvl 19 contest was FUN, wish they'd do somehting like that again`
`19:41.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge fathom (n=fathom@ip70-189-112-158.ok.ok.cox.net)`
`19:41.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the only real problem was the shaman/pally imbalance`
`19:41.39`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`at lvl 19, in WSG, Blessing of Freedom is HUGE`
`19:42.27`	`teomyr`	`purge :>`
`19:42.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`is a reaction, not an action`
`19:42.59`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`without frost shock to back it up, it's ineffective`
`19:43.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`sure, you purge the BoF, but they're still free of whatever was snaring them`
`19:43.41`	`teomyr`	`correct :(`
`19:43.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`The standard alliance tactic was pally-rogue flag team`
`19:44.20`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`rogue grabs flag, pally BoFs, rogue sprints`
`19:44.25`	`Amadeo`	`I imagine TBC Arenas will be pointless without a Paladin in group`
`19:46.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I'd still love to see a server that was dedicated to 1-19. Maybe wipe it every month or so.`
`19:46.32`	`nevcairiel`	`heh`
`19:46.50`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`The only real drawback is that at 1-19, without serious twinking, cloth classes can't compete`
`19:47.54`	`teomyr`	`yes`
`19:48.01`	`Shadowed`	`1-19 is silly for Bg's`
`19:48.18`	`teomyr`	`when i'm in wsg with one of my twinks, there are always a few pimped up twinks in it`
`19:48.19`	`thr`	`anything sub 40-49 is silly imho since alot of the 31pt talents make up the core of some classes.`
`19:48.38`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`40-49 is IMHO one of the best brackets`
`19:48.53`	`thr`	`but 50-59 is how it should be on 60 - balance wise.`
`19:49.00`	`Shadowed`	`20-29 is pretty fun actually`
`19:49.12`	`thr`	`i'm in the 20-29 with my troll warrior now.. atleast for a day before i level on.`
`19:49.18`	`Shadowed`	`but at least classes start to develope at 20-29`
`19:49.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`20-29, at least in WSG, is all about druids`
`19:49.26`	`Amadeo`	`I think 70 PvP will be fun if the PvP sets are viable enough to compete with PvE sets`
`19:49.42`	`thr`	`and it's fun ... but i still lack to much to of my skills to do anything vs. some classes as a warrior`
`19:49.45`	`thr`	`(mostly intercept ;<)`
`19:50.01`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`which side, horde or ally?`
`19:50.03`	`thr`	`and a mage in pvp without iceblock or blastwave... nah, not going to happen.`
`19:50.05`	`thr`	`Neuro_Medivh: horde.`
`19:50.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`horde side twinking has huge advantages over ally side`
`19:50.31`	`thr`	`well i'm not twinked`
`19:50.35`	`thr`	`but i got good enough gear anyways`
`19:50.42`	`Industrial`	`http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=8733`
`19:50.47`	`Industrial`	`need helpwith this quest`
`19:50.55`	`Industrial`	`im at malfurions location`
`19:50.57`	`Industrial`	`but he aint there`
`19:51.08`	`thr`	`maybe he want to the store.`
`19:51.09`	`Industrial`	`(im moonglade)`
`19:51.12`	`thr`	`check for a yellow post it`
`19:51.15`	`thr`	`;p`
`19:51.27`	`Industrial`	`im serious traveled a bitch end for it :(`
`19:51.38`	`nevcairiel`	`Industrial: you need to go to darnassus, read the quest`
`19:51.39`	`nevcairiel`	`:)`
`19:51.47`	`thr`	`"End: Forest Wisp"`
`19:52.08`	`Industrial`	`Start: Malfurion Stormrage`
`19:52.16`	`thr`	`well`
`19:52.23`	`Industrial`	`This NPC can be found in Sunken Temple.`
`19:52.24`	`Industrial`	`blah`
`19:52.24`	`nevcairiel`	`oh you need the start point`
`19:52.25`	`thr`	`"Travel to the continent of Teldrassil and find Malfurion's agent somewhere outside the walls of Darnassus."`
`19:52.36`	`Industrial`	`starts inside ST`
`19:52.37`	`Industrial`	`gah`
`19:52.40`	`Industrial`	`next quest!`
`19:52.45`	`nevcairiel`	`Industrial: you trying to do the ahnqiraj quest?`
`19:52.57`	`thr`	`Industrial is it the 2nd or 3rd quest in the chain?`
`19:53.00`	`Industrial`	`1`
`19:53.17`	`thr`	`but...`
`19:53.23`	`thr`	`if you are on the first part.`
`19:53.29`	`thr`	`then read this: "Travel to the continent of Teldrassil and find Malfurion's agent somewhere outside the walls of Darnassus."`
`19:53.45`	`thr`	`you're not supposed to go moonglade`
`19:53.49`	`nevcairiel`	`if you just completed the inital chain, you need to go to the temple to actually start the green questline`
`19:54.32`	`thr`	`man i love my battlegroup, alot more ally then horde so always "< 1 minute" wait time :)`
`19:54.33`	`Industrial`	`i havent completed anything`
`19:54.47`	`thr`	`Industrial: No, exactly. So you should go to Teldrassil, NOT moonglade. Read the quest.`
`19:55.00`	`Industrial`	`thr: i read it kthx 1 time is enough`
`19:55.27`	`Industrial`	`the site does not say that the quest starts there. the quest text tells you you need to go there`
`19:55.32`	`nevcairiel`	`that quest is only available if you initially started the quest in silithus and handed in the head of broodlord lashlayer`
`19:55.33`	`Industrial`	`its not pre-quest`
`19:55.37`	`Industrial`	`its a quest objective`
`19:55.40`	`Industrial`	`i need the quest first`
`19:55.43`	`Industrial`	`.`
`19:56.00`	`Industrial`	`nevcairiel: thank you how do i do thaT? :P`
`19:56.19`	`nevcairiel`	`go to silithus, start the quest, goto BWL, slay the boordlord, and ninja the head`
`19:56.27`	`Industrial`	`oh, im level 54 :\|`
`19:57.01`	`nevcairiel`	`that quest is part of the quest-line to open Ahn'Qiraj`
`19:57.14`	`nevcairiel`	`not worth it, anyway`
`19:58.11`	`Industrial`	`yeah i was just iterating though the quests around ST, never really pay attention to the storylines`
`19:58.11`	`Industrial`	`guess its my own fault :E`
`19:59.06`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Neebler (n=bum@ppp-209-77-228-49.dsl.chi2ca.pacbell.net)`
`20:01.11`	`Shadowed`	`"outside the walls of darnassus", if i remember right it's talking about going to where malfurion is in darnassus and going by where the dirt digger thingy guy is`
`20:22.37`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Caboose[FH] (n=Caboose9@cpe-66-8-166-76.hawaii.res.rr.com)`
`20:27.34`	`Industrial`	`21:26 1 Maiwang: lfg rfc`
`20:27.38`	`Industrial`	`lmao maiwang`
`20:27.59`	`teomyr`	`^^`
`20:34.48`	`thr`	`UnitReaction("player","target") does that return hated if i target a horde player as alliance?`
`20:35.11`	`thr`	`or is it just for player vs. mob ?`
`20:37.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`player vs factioned mob`
`20:37.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`some mobs are hostile without being factioned`
`20:38.09`	`thr`	`ye but.`
`20:38.13`	`thr`	`it does not work player vs player ?`
`20:40.30`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No idea`
`20:48.30`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge gnor (n=jaydee@70-38-3-21.vnnyca.adelphia.net)`
`20:57.30`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Esamynn\|Away (n=nnchatzi@207.6.94.35)`
`20:58.22`	`Industrial`	`thr: UnitReaction()`
`20:58.26`	`Industrial`	`thr: UnitReaction(sUnit)`
`21:08.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge TMK (n=TMK@ip49.cab49.lsn.starman.ee)`
`21:09.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge SP\|Sorren (n=astrayca@adsl-75-26-200-112.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)`
`21:10.23`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com)`
`21:11.32`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tuller (n=chatzill@c-68-57-185-39.hsd1.va.comcast.net)`
`21:24.50`	`MentalPower`	`http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/wowi-lounge.html.gz`
`21:28.24`	`Guillotine`	`wow, thats awesome`
`21:28.40`	`Industrial`	`cladhaire: SPAMMER`
`21:28.49`	`cladhaire`	`hrm?`
`21:28.50`	`Industrial`	`spammmm spammedyspam`
`21:29.14`	`ScytheBlade1`	`What was awesome?`
`21:29.22`	`Guillotine`	`that website`
`21:29.27`	`ScytheBlade1`	`oh`
`21:29.29`	`ScytheBlade1`	`lol, yeah`
`21:29.30`	`ScytheBlade1`	`~logs`
`21:29.39`	`purl`	`apt/ibot/jbot/purl all log to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian \| lines that start with a space are not shown \| some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz, or updated "nightly"`
`21:29.43`	`Esamynn`	`that Stats page is just great! :)`
`21:30.03`	`Guillotine`	`haha. "cladhaire talks to him/herself a lot. He/She wrote over 5 lines in a row 3 times! "`
`21:30.17`	`Guillotine`	`"Xuerian has quite a potty mouth. 1.0% words were foul language.`
`21:30.17`	`Guillotine`	`Cairenn also makes sailors blush, 0.4% of the time."`
`21:30.30`	`cladhaire`	`lol`
`21:30.38`	`Esamynn`	`~bzfrag cladhaire`
`21:30.39`	`purl`	`ACTION kills cladhaire with a shot from his BZTank`
`21:30.46`	`Esamynn`	`haha`
`21:31.08`	`Mikma`	`~lart cladhaire`
`21:31.23`	`Esamynn`	`~whaleslap Mikma`
`21:31.24`	`purl`	`ACTION beats Mikma upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh`
`21:31.26`	`teomyr`	`wtf`
`21:31.43`	`teomyr`	`that stat page has logged all conversations in this channel oO`
`21:31.56`	`Esamynn`	`teomyr: yah, purl does that`
`21:31.56`	`Mikma`	`orly?`
`21:32.05`	`ScytheBlade1`	`That's what that bot is for`
`21:32.06`	`Guillotine`	`purl = big brother`
`21:32.09`	`Esamynn`	`~botsnack`
`21:32.09`	`purl`	`Esamynn: :)`
`21:32.38`	`cladhaire`	`nice`
`21:32.43`	`teomyr`	`yes, i knew who purl is, but i didn't know that everything we say is stored`
`21:32.54`	`ScytheBlade1`	`purl does that and much, much more.`
`21:32.56`	`teomyr`	`gotta be careful what i say :D`
`21:32.57`	`Esamynn`	`there is a full log too`
`21:33.25`	`Esamynn`	`Full Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/#wowi-lounge/`
`21:34.04`	`teomyr`	`that's what i mean`
`21:34.29`	`Esamynn`	`teomyr: why, you got something to hide? :P`
`21:34.34`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`So anyone played Gears of War? Any good?`
`21:34.45`	`Esamynn`	`not I`
`21:34.46`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge loonatik (i=loonatik@dangerinc.net)`
`21:34.46`	`Mery`	`I think if you start your line with a space (or something) it won't show up in the log`
`21:34.57`	`Guillotine`	`ya, thats what it says`
`21:35.09`	`Esamynn`	`really?`
`21:35.12`	`Esamynn`	`that's interesting`
`21:35.42`	`Esamynn`	`oh yes, I never noticed that part of the ~log response before`
`21:40.55`	`loonatik`	`is it possible to run a macro from my script`
`21:41.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`currently yes, in 2.0 no`
`21:41.47`	`loonatik`	`which is BC right?`
`21:41.54`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yes`
`21:42.10`	`loonatik`	`thats fine for now, im on the wiki site, what would I look for to learn how to do that`
`21:42.12`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`but it'll be added to the live game before BC, iirc`
`21:42.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`UseAction(#)`
`21:42.30`	`loonatik`	`thanks`
`21:42.33`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`your macro needs to be on the actionbar somewhere`
`21:42.49`	`loonatik`	`ok`
`21:42.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I recommend 109-120, those are the least used`
`21:43.38`	`loonatik`	`thanks`
`21:44.03`	`loonatik`	`why are they removing it`
`21:44.46`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`abuse`
`21:45.03`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`too many people using smart macros to play the game`
`21:45.16`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`press one button, the macro decides everything for them`
`21:45.31`	`loonatik`	`whats wrong with that? =)`
`21:45.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`They don't want it`
`21:45.46`	`loonatik`	`bleh`
`21:45.52`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`makes programming encounters very hard`
`21:46.25`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`For example, what point giving a boss an AE curse, if they know in 2 seconds 6 decursers will spam their decursive hotkey and clean everyone`
`21:47.32`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it's like, why not let people play in god mode?`
`21:47.39`	`loonatik`	`so they think making you have to do it manually makes the game more fun?`
`21:47.39`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`cause they'll get bored`
`21:47.40`	`loonatik`	`lol`
`21:47.51`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it does, in the long run`
`21:48.08`	`loonatik`	`thats teh same mentality that levels are content`
`21:48.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, you're looking at the problem incorrectly is all`
`21:48.36`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Automation is never a proper solution`
`21:48.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the proper solution is to make it more fun to do manually`
`21:49.21`	`loonatik`	`doesnt sound like they are too worried about that`
`21:49.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`many of their design decisions are based on the existance of addons like decursive`
`21:50.04`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`they hit EVERYONE, because it's the only way to overcome decursive`
`21:50.06`	`Esamynn`	`loonatik: they far perfer what people are calling wack-a-mole, to complete automation with button spamming`
`21:50.27`	`End`	`what's the point of aoe curses anyways? that's hardly fun, with a smart button or not...`
`21:50.36`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`That's the point`
`21:50.46`	`End`	`and btw`
`21:50.54`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`with automation, you have to either remove the automation, or overload it`
`21:51.05`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`they tried overloading, and it's boring`
`21:51.08`	`End`	`afaik, bosses in MC had aoe curses before decursive existed`
`21:51.09`	`loonatik`	`i just dont see why they care`
`21:51.15`	`loonatik`	`if someone wants to use a script to do it`
`21:51.20`	`loonatik`	`let em`
`21:51.25`	`loonatik`	`if someone thinks its more fun to not use a script`
`21:51.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`People have been scripting since beta`
`21:51.27`	`loonatik`	`thats fine too`
`21:51.50`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`so should they add a God Mode?`
`21:52.01`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`type /godmode and you can't die to mobs`
`21:52.01`	`loonatik`	`how can you compare decursive to god mode?`
`21:52.07`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Yes`
`21:52.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Because they do the same thing`
`21:52.21`	`loonatik`	`no, you can still die`
`21:52.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I'm simply pushing it to the extreme limit`
`21:52.24`	`loonatik`	`without descursive`
`21:52.29`	`Mikma`	`Cairenn: can we have the new FrameXML + others in wdn.wowinterface.com? :)`
`21:52.31`	`loonatik`	`yea, REALLY extreme`
`21:52.36`	`loonatik`	`beyond being relevant`
`21:52.36`	`Amadeo`	`I think Decursive is fine now that they have stuff like Unstable Affliction`
`21:52.38`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`That's how you check things`
`21:52.43`	`End`	`Mikma: that's beladona's thing`
`21:52.50`	`Esamynn`	`Mikma: it's not Cairenn who does that, it Beladona`
`21:52.52`	`Cairenn`	`what End said`
`21:52.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Your argument doesn't hold up at the extreme ends`
`21:53.04`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`because otherwise, god mode should be allowed`
`21:53.11`	`Mery`	`not so far off, you skip the developed content because you are more powerful than intended`
`21:53.17`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`if YOU wanna play in non-god mode, that's fine`
`21:53.18`	`Mikma`	`Cairenn: well you can handle it? you're tha BOFH/Admin etc :D`
`21:53.27`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: then no conversation can ever be talked about`
`21:53.32`	`loonatik`	`because im sure you can come up with some extreme`
`21:53.33`	`loonatik`	`that would make it pointless`
`21:53.34`	`Cairenn`	`Mikma: nope, Bela handles that exclusively`
`21:53.40`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, you have to look at your argument`
`21:53.48`	`Mikma`	`Cairenn: i meant, "can you give him an order to do it"`
`21:53.49`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yours was that personal fun trumps other concerns`
`21:53.51`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: maybe YOU dont like decursive`
`21:53.57`	`Cairenn`	`no, but I can request it`
`21:54.01`	`Mikma`	`Cairenn: i bet you talk with him more often than i do :D`
`21:54.03`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Give me a reason why Godmode isn't good`
`21:54.07`	`loonatik`	`but you cant compare decursive to god mode`
`21:54.09`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`sure I can`
`21:54.20`	`Mikma`	`Cairenn: be a boss! order it ;)`
`21:54.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Give me a compelling reason why godmode shouldn't be allowed as a personal choice`
`21:54.27`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: then by the same way of thinking you shouldnt be able to heal`
`21:54.28`	`Cairenn`	`Mikma: not my style`
`21:54.30`	`loonatik`	`because healing helps you not die`
`21:54.35`	`loonatik`	`so healers are like god mode`
`21:54.43`	`Mery`	`but everybody can heal (with the standart ui)`
`21:54.45`	`loonatik`	`thats how ridiculous your argument is`
`21:54.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, my argument is that there is a line`
`21:54.56`	`Mikma`	`Cairenn: well, purr at him/her/something ;)`
`21:55.09`	`Kaligar`	`alot of encounters where maded with decursive in mind`
`21:55.12`	`loonatik`	`and why does decursive step over some line`
`21:55.16`	`Kaligar`	`look at chromag`
`21:55.21`	`Mery`	`because the spell says your target`
`21:55.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Kaligar, I agree, and it's a poor design`
`21:55.38`	`Mery`	`and that implies the spell is designed to have you chose your target`
`21:55.43`	`Kaligar`	`they pretty much killed hunter traking with the changes`
`21:55.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`loonatik, the designers decided where the line was`
`21:56.08`	`loonatik`	`good for them`
`21:56.13`	`Kaligar`	`now all we have is a blip for when a certain unit is on the sreen and no info about it at all`
`21:56.17`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and the line was combat variables vs static variables`
`21:56.19`	`loonatik`	`they need to quit meddling, thats what kills most mmogs`
`21:56.30`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`so who decides where the line is then?`
`21:56.36`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and no, it's not`
`21:56.37`	`Kaligar`	`i can see the need to get rid of decursive though`
`21:56.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`when the designers give up is when mmogs die`
`21:56.57`	`Kaligar`	`its stupid having to work bosses around it`
`21:56.59`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: just because the designers think decursive is bad doesnt mean i cant disagree and talk about it`
`21:57.26`	`Esamynn`	`loonatik: no one is saying you can't but many people here agree with the designers in thiss`
`21:57.30`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`true. I'm simply saying that your argument in favor of decursive (that it's more fun than not having it) is flawed`
`21:57.42`	`Kaligar`	`my biggest peev is we have to learn all this secure crap :P`
`21:57.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`because taking that argument to it's logical conclusion allows anything that people consider "fun" like Godmode`
`21:57.49`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: ive played almost every mmog and the single thing that destroys them is the devs changing things constantly`
`21:57.53`	`Esamynn`	`Kaligar: would you perfer we didn't have it?`
`21:58.09`	`Kaligar`	`id prefer better documentation`
`21:58.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@172.151-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)`
`21:58.13`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: so what is your side then? the devs said so, so its valid? heh`
`21:58.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Again, I disagree. Constant maintaining is what keeps a game fresh`
`21:58.30`	`Esamynn`	`Kaligar: that will come, give it time`
`21:58.38`	`Teomyr`	`i have mixed feelings about the removal of detox/decursive`
`21:58.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`My side is, I understand where they are coming from. As long as they design the encounters with these new limits in mind, I'm fine`
`21:58.43`	`Mery`	`well teh devs didn't changed their minds on that, it was clear since 2 years that they don't like spell automatation`
`21:58.55`	`Teomyr`	`things may be a bit more difficult now, but with the UI changes in mind, the devs might choose to create encounters that don't need that much decursing`
`21:59.19`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: tell me that when you have leveled up a creature handler and they totally break the class, then you level up a swordsman and they totally break that class, or you gear up for pvp then they kill it`
`21:59.26`	`ScytheBlade1`	`Or they might not, and you'll just have to be able to... move your mouse... 30 pixels... every 1.5 seconds...`
`21:59.26`	`End`	`well, it's been mentioned that fear will be less used`
`21:59.27`	`ScytheBlade1`	`..`
`21:59.31`	`loonatik`	`they constantly do it`
`21:59.33`	`loonatik`	`and it makes the games worse`
`21:59.40`	`Esamynn`	`Kaligar: also, if you have questions, you can always ask here`
`21:59.51`	`End`	`I could see it being the same with other things like curses/etc`
`21:59.54`	`loonatik`	`ive played AC, AC2, AO, AA, DNL, DDO, EVE, E&B, EQ, EQ2, Horizons, JG, Lineage, Neocron, Planeshift, PS, PE, Shadowbane, SWG, MXO, UO, WOW, WWIIOL .. and the biggest problem is the devs breaking things because they are trying to balance`
`22:00.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I have 6 60s in this game, in 4 different classes, and I played nearly every combo in UO, and nearly every class in EQ`
`22:00.16`	`Kaligar`	`my main problem is applying attirbute to the correct frames in the xml :P`
`22:00.20`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: if you have played UO then you know exactly what I mean`
`22:00.21`	`loonatik`	`by meddling`
`22:00.25`	`loonatik`	`they destroyed UO`
`22:00.42`	`Kaligar`	`uo wasnt meddled with it was completely changed`
`22:00.42`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`UO is still going strong actually`
`22:00.51`	`Amadeo`	`You guys play early EQ, pre-expansion?`
`22:00.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I did`
`22:00.58`	`Amadeo`	`nice`
`22:01.04`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: uhm, how many millions of subscribers does UO have?`
`22:01.10`	`loonatik`	`have you even played it lately btw? i have it sucks`
`22:01.11`	`Kaligar`	`0`
`22:01.11`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it never had more than 100k`
`22:01.12`	`ScytheBlade1`	`loonatik, one question for you: should a paladin be able to spam one button in a 40v40 battleground, and without thinking, cleanse every single person near them, irregardless of what it is?`
`22:01.19`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: exactly`
`22:01.21`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I was against the decursive change, until I thought about th at.`
`22:01.24`	`ScytheBlade1`	`*that.`
`22:01.36`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`UO is outdated is all`
`22:01.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I used to play Civ 1 ALL the time`
`22:01.43`	`Kaligar`	`the reason wow is so successful is because of the rts's`
`22:01.51`	`ScytheBlade1`	`No one should be able to mindlessly spam one button and without thinking, fix 40 people's problems`
`22:01.52`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: they destroyed UO with trammel and many other changes`
`22:01.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`now, I don't, cause it's obsolete`
`22:02.04`	`Kaligar`	`uo was ridign on 90-95 games`
`22:02.13`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`People don't leave games because the game broke`
`22:02.17`	`loonatik`	`lol`
`22:02.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`they leave because something better comes along`
`22:02.23`	`loonatik`	`uh yea they do`
`22:02.28`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's all`
`22:02.34`	`loonatik`	`they also leave because of that, but back when they did most of the changes`
`22:02.36`	`loonatik`	`nothing else was out`
`22:02.37`	`loonatik`	`until eq`
`22:02.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`EQ came out before trammel did`
`22:02.46`	`Amadeo`	`WoW is successful for more than its history, it's a very accessable and easy game with very little penalty for dying or "losing" in general`
`22:02.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Trammel came out over a year later`
`22:03.36`	`Amadeo`	`EQ may not have been the hardest MMOG ever, but anyone who's ever lost a levels in death or been on a 10 hour corpse run knows that WoW is pretty accessable :)`
`22:03.39`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and the increased subscriber base of WoW over EQ and UO is indicative of a massive culture change rather than better game design`
`22:03.42`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: no it didnt`
`22:03.50`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Trammel came out in Summer 2000`
`22:03.56`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`EQ came out in March 1999`
`22:04.13`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Siege Perilous came out in Summer 1999`
`22:04.16`	`loonatik`	`i played eq in beta through launch, i was pissed off at uo because of trammel by then`
`22:04.41`	`Amadeo`	`WoW is more like the consolized MMORPG, imo, but not so much that computer users don't want to play it :P`
`22:04.48`	`loonatik`	`Ultima Online: Renaissance (April 3, 2000) The world was doubled in size, as there were literally two copies of it. The worlds were called Felucca and Trammel, after the two moons in Ultima's Britannia world. The Trammel world did not allow player killing, while the Felucca world did. Felucca also adopted a darker, more foreboding look.`
`22:04.53`	`loonatik`	`hrmm`
`22:04.55`	`loonatik`	`2000`
`22:05.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`May 2000`
`22:05.17`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`is when it went live`
`22:05.32`	`loonatik`	`they still destroyed the game through the changes they made`
`22:05.47`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`The subscriber base really hasn't lost too much actually`
`22:05.53`	`Amadeo`	`I thought the game was pretty messed up to begin with, from what I've heard (I never played)`
`22:05.53`	`loonatik`	`and they constantly changed things that broke templates/professions/ways to make money`
`22:05.57`	`loonatik`	`ect`
`22:06.06`	`loonatik`	`Amadeo: UO was awesome`
`22:06.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the thing is, without change, people get bored`
`22:06.14`	`Amadeo`	`loonatik: I'm speaking of hacks and stuff`
`22:06.15`	`loonatik`	`still the best mmog imo`
`22:06.19`	`loonatik`	`Amadeo: ah`
`22:06.23`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`lol, lemme guess, you loved being a PK`
`22:06.36`	`loonatik`	`i was blue mostly`
`22:06.38`	`Inside`	`Hmmm..`
`22:06.38`	`Inside`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:06.39`	`loonatik`	`and i pked the reds`
`22:06.40`	`Kaligar`	`uo sux`
`22:06.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Siege Perilous was the best UO server`
`22:06.46`	`loonatik`	`we had a tower right outside yew moongate`
`22:06.51`	`loonatik`	`non stop canrage`
`22:06.51`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`but UO was flawed from the beginning`
`22:06.54`	`Amadeo`	`I couldn't afford a computer when UO was out :P`
`22:06.59`	`Amadeo`	`er, when it was popular`
`22:07.00`	`loonatik`	`my ass UO rocked`
`22:07.06`	`Kirkburn`	`See this link: http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html`
`22:07.11`	`Inside`	`What to do, what to do.. play TBC, Write my uno mod, work on my c++ program >_o`
`22:07.12`	`Kirkburn`	`Notice how UO isn't dead :P`
`22:07.18`	`loonatik`	`now all you got is care bare central with shit like wow`
`22:07.23`	`loonatik`	`cookie cutter mmogs`
`22:07.42`	`loonatik`	`that appeal to as many people as possible and dont offer any innovation`
`22:07.56`	`loonatik`	`and actually think levels are content`
`22:08.04`	`Kaligar`	`uo may as well be dead, look at how hard the have to keep changing stuff just to keep people playing`
`22:08.10`	`ScytheBlade1`	`loonatik, to each their own.`
`22:08.25`	`loonatik`	`ScytheBlade1: most people dont even know whats possible with games like UO`
`22:08.31`	`loonatik`	`and dont know any better`
`22:08.38`	`loonatik`	`most people werent playing mmogs before WoW`
`22:08.39`	`Amadeo`	`Kirkburn: Imagine if they scaled the graph to include World of Warcraft, and how tall it would have to be :P`
`22:08.40`	`Kaligar`	`they design it so people can run it on low end machines aka 5 years old and who has that anymore`
`22:08.50`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`UO wasn't that amazing to be honest`
`22:08.59`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it was innovative though`
`22:09.04`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and that counts for a lot`
`22:09.09`	`Kaligar`	`uo was fun while there was just one facet`
`22:09.11`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`surprisingly, EQ wasn't very innovative`
`22:09.13`	`Kirkburn`	`Amadeo, heh`
`22:09.19`	`loonatik`	`they did Kirkburn`
`22:09.20`	`loonatik`	`http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html`
`22:09.22`	`Inside`	`http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1_files/Subscriptions_8846_image001.gif`
`22:09.22`	`Amadeo`	`People love their first MMOG, that's just how it'll always be...well, assuming the game was good enough to play`
`22:09.23`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it simply adapted DIKUmud to a graphical environment =)`
`22:09.26`	`loonatik`	`Kaligar: yup`
`22:09.31`	`loonatik`	`they killed it with trammel and many other changes`
`22:09.33`	`Amadeo`	`Kirkburn: hahah`
`22:09.36`	`Kirkburn`	`loonatik, I think he meant keeping it at the same scale :)`
`22:10.20`	`loonatik`	`eq blew because all you did was level`
`22:10.21`	`Amadeo`	`loonatik: That's like a million people off, too!`
`22:10.33`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Also keep in mind that the number of people online with high speed connections today is orders of magnitude more than in 97`
`22:10.40`	`loonatik`	`yup`
`22:10.45`	`Amadeo`	`Pre-SoE EQ was my favorite MMORPG, and part of that is because it was my first`
`22:10.56`	`loonatik`	`we are probably gonna have crap wow clone mmogs for another 5-10 years`
`22:11.00`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`EQ took me a while to really get into`
`22:11.04`	`loonatik`	`wont see another good mmog for at least 5 maybe 10 years`
`22:11.05`	`Amadeo`	`It did for me also`
`22:11.20`	`Amadeo`	`Some games have great ideas, like Vanguard`
`22:11.29`	`loonatik`	`or dark and light`
`22:11.31`	`Amadeo`	`But Blizzard is the Microsoft of MMOG now`
`22:11.34`	`loonatik`	`but all the ones with good ideas are run by cheap companies`
`22:11.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Blizzard is smart`
`22:11.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`they don't try and pioneer some weird new concept game`
`22:11.58`	`Amadeo`	`TBC comes out in January, nobody's going to play Vanguard`
`22:12.02`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`they take a burgeoning genre and polish it`
`22:12.14`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Dune 2000 was groundbreaking, but flawed`
`22:12.20`	`Amadeo`	`Yeah...if you look at WoW, it's bits from MMOGs of past`
`22:12.28`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Blizzard took that new genre, and polished up into Warcraft I`
`22:13.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Diablo, believe it or not, is based on games like Angband and Talengard`
`22:13.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Angband = triumph of content over technology`
`22:13.41`	`Amadeo`	`Speaking of Diablo, I heard Hellgate: London is finished :P`
`22:14.03`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I wish Blizzard would have done Fallout 3`
`22:14.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`instead of Bethesda`
`22:15.06`	`loonatik`	`i just want a mmog with more depth, there was SOOOOOOOOOOO much you could do, ways to make money, types of ways to play that game`
`22:15.13`	`loonatik`	`in uo`
`22:15.32`	`Amadeo`	`Shadowbane tried that, didn't do to well for various reasons...I think the next MMORPG trying it is Vanguard`
`22:15.42`	`loonatik`	`shadowbane was unplayable buggy crap`
`22:15.53`	`loonatik`	`made by a company without resources to do it right`
`22:15.56`	`loonatik`	`just like neocron`
`22:16.00`	`loonatik`	`just like dark and light`
`22:16.08`	`Amadeo`	`I played most of those games for less than a month`
`22:16.10`	`Amadeo`	`Hated em`
`22:16.13`	`loonatik`	`so theres no way to know if shadowbane would have been good =)`
`22:16.18`	`Inside`	`>_>`
`22:16.28`	`Inside`	`Honestly, in 6 months or so I want to start working on a 2D MMO`
`22:16.33`	`Inside`	`With content over prettiness ;)`
`22:16.33`	`Amadeo`	`Shadowbane would have been good if it came out back when it was supposed to`
`22:16.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`there's a problem with the Shadowbane paradigm though`
`22:16.42`	`loonatik`	`Inside: you and thousands of other people =)`
`22:16.50`	`Inside`	`Yeah, but I'm gonna be realistic about it.`
`22:17.01`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`persistant-state competative games don't last`
`22:17.03`	`loonatik`	`Inside: creating a mmog without a ton of bank isnt realisitic`
`22:17.12`	`Inside`	`That's why I said it's gonna be 2D.`
`22:17.15`	`loonatik`	`ive been apart of several indie groups trying`
`22:17.23`	`loonatik`	`and none of them came close`
`22:17.24`	`Inside`	`2D using existing graphic engines.`
`22:17.28`	`loonatik`	`biggest one was planeshift`
`22:17.32`	`loonatik`	`and its still a piece of crap`
`22:17.44`	`Inside`	`I didn't say it was gonna be good :P`
`22:17.46`	`loonatik`	`it takes money and a lot of it`
`22:17.51`	`Inside`	`Money? For what?`
`22:17.57`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Any game like Shadowbane where you capture territory and physically affect the world in a pvp manner can't sustain itself`
`22:18.02`	`loonatik`	`Inside: resources`
`22:18.07`	`Inside`	`Aside from bandwidth, a small group project shouldn't take much.`
`22:18.09`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: bullshit`
`22:18.12`	`loonatik`	`UO Factions rocked`
`22:18.18`	`loonatik`	`they didnt take it far enough`
`22:18.30`	`loonatik`	`you should have been able to control the town more`
`22:18.33`	`loonatik`	`and make money off of it`
`22:18.37`	`loonatik`	`more economy stuff`
`22:18.51`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`You can't do it.`
`22:18.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`People lose interest`
`22:18.55`	`loonatik`	`sure you can`
`22:19.01`	`loonatik`	`then they get taken out`
`22:19.02`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it's counter-intuitive`
`22:19.05`	`Inside`	`You just make the world big enough.`
`22:19.06`	`loonatik`	`and the next group with interest will run it`
`22:19.12`	`loonatik`	`no way`
`22:19.12`	`Inside`	`Exactly.`
`22:19.20`	`loonatik`	`it would rule`
`22:19.27`	`Inside`	`You make the system simple enough for everoyne to use and abues.`
`22:19.27`	`loonatik`	`and give people things to do`
`22:19.28`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Loonatik, lemme ask you this: Do you enjoy any sports? Football, baseball, basketball?`
`22:19.29`	`loonatik`	`than grind for gear`
`22:19.29`	`Inside`	`abuse.`
`22:19.33`	`loonatik`	`sure`
`22:19.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`which is your favorite?`
`22:19.42`	`loonatik`	`hockey`
`22:19.51`	`Inside`	`I envision an MMO.. a massive world that's generated :)`
`22:20.02`	`Inside`	`A dungeon can only be cleared once (but it'll slowly regenerate itself)`
`22:20.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Ok, imagine if hockey rankings and scores carried over from season to season`
`22:20.24`	`Inside`	`You make everything consumable.`
`22:20.33`	`Inside`	`That weapon? Once its durability is down to 0.. you get a new one!`
`22:20.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Eventually, you hit a few teams with massive game leads`
`22:20.52`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and no one ever watches the other teams`
`22:21.04`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`cause they never reach the playoffs`
`22:21.07`	`Kaligar`	`who cares about scores best reason to watch hockey is because they beat the crap out of each other :P`
`22:21.08`	`Inside`	`It'd be like hocket teams having to spend their scores and rankings to buy new gear`
`22:21.08`	`Inside`	`xP`
`22:21.16`	`loonatik`	`i disagree but i see your analogy`
`22:21.20`	`Teomyr`	`Inside: lol`
`22:21.23`	`loonatik`	`because it would only take another group of people who want to do it`
`22:21.26`	`loonatik`	`and take it over`
`22:21.32`	`loonatik`	`and like you said people lost interest`
`22:21.36`	`loonatik`	`people can be betrayed`
`22:21.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`my entire point is, eventually in a persistant state world, one team becomes dominant`
`22:21.49`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and you need to reset`
`22:21.50`	`Inside`	`Yeah, the most important part is that peopel feel consequences... in game.`
`22:21.51`	`loonatik`	`you never can stay on top`
`22:21.56`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`sure you can`
`22:22.12`	`loonatik`	`ive seen it in SWG with player run towns`
`22:22.13`	`Inside`	`Like if someone steals? They lose karma/whatever so get crappier procs..`
`22:22.15`	`loonatik`	`you can move into a town`
`22:22.16`	`loonatik`	`and take it over`
`22:22.19`	`Inside`	`Same with PKs and so on.`
`22:22.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Once you obtain a dominant position, it's hard to knock you off, and you attract people who want to win`
`22:22.30`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: and so is life`
`22:22.33`	`Inside`	`Yup`
`22:22.33`	`loonatik`	`but there is always a bigger stick`
`22:22.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`game isn't life`
`22:22.39`	`loonatik`	`and`
`22:22.41`	`loonatik`	`sure it is`
`22:22.45`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, it's not`
`22:22.48`	`loonatik`	`we are talking about a virtual reality`
`22:22.49`	`loonatik`	`so yea it is`
`22:22.53`	`Inside`	`The thing is, you create enough points of interest to control that no one group can control it all.`
`22:23.00`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Bad bad analogy. Life isn't fair.`
`22:23.03`	`loonatik`	`we are talking about the game relaity being effeted by people`
`22:23.03`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Games should be`
`22:23.04`	`Teomyr`	`game shouldn't be life`
`22:23.06`	`loonatik`	`and people are real`
`22:23.11`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: lol`
`22:23.13`	`Inside`	`So one team has a tyranical control over an area? Well, go elsewhere.`
`22:23.16`	`loonatik`	`then you get a care bear world`
`22:23.18`	`loonatik`	`who wants that?`
`22:23.24`	`loonatik`	`i sure as HELL dont`
`22:23.25`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Inside, and what happens when everywhere is controlled?`
`22:23.34`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: then people take over other places`
`22:23.39`	`loonatik`	`people lose interest`
`22:23.48`	`loonatik`	`DnL had a similar system and it worked great`
`22:23.55`	`loonatik`	`if you could loook past the bugs and sheer lack of support`
`22:23.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`DnL?`
`22:23.58`	`loonatik`	`dark and light`
`22:24.02`	`loonatik`	`you could take over barony's`
`22:24.03`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`no idea what that is`
`22:24.10`	`Inside`	`Neebler: You just create more places to be controlled ;)`
`22:24.13`	`loonatik`	`and if you controlled enough you could control the kingdom ect`
`22:24.20`	`Inside`	`That's my problem with MMOs, Elwynn is Elwynn, it has a set size.`
`22:24.23`	`loonatik`	`look at EVE`
`22:24.25`	`loonatik`	`perfect example`
`22:24.27`	`loonatik`	`that game is awesome`
`22:24.29`	`loonatik`	`people LOVE it`
`22:24.30`	`Inside`	`Eve is fucking huge.`
`22:24.34`	`loonatik`	`exactly`
`22:24.37`	`loonatik`	`thats a great example`
`22:24.38`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`my entire point is that without a reset button, people lose interest in a persistant state competative world... Hell, just look at all the "new server" people to see that`
`22:24.42`	`loonatik`	`no way`
`22:24.48`	`loonatik`	`with a reset button i lose interest`
`22:24.50`	`Inside`	`Neuro_Medivh: Not a reset, just a GM event ;)`
`22:24.52`	`loonatik`	`FPS's are fun`
`22:24.56`	`Inside`	`Oops, flood? Looks like all your holdings are gone n_n`
`22:24.57`	`loonatik`	`but if I could actually accomplish something`
`22:25.04`	`loonatik`	`by fighting in a FPS`
`22:25.08`	`loonatik`	`id be so much more interseted`
`22:25.08`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`When I say Reset Button, I mean like an end of season type thing`
`22:25.13`	`loonatik`	`right`
`22:25.22`	`Inside`	`The thing with "new" servers is that people don't like it when there are people who are better off than them.`
`22:25.24`	`loonatik`	`not having an objective`
`22:25.26`	`loonatik`	`or something you can build`
`22:25.27`	`Inside`	`Which is silly stupid.`
`22:25.27`	`loonatik`	`is boring`
`22:25.36`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and then everything resets to ground zero, and people try and "win" again`
`22:25.38`	`loonatik`	`i think using all my time to get faggoty purple gear`
`22:25.42`	`loonatik`	`so i can walk around and think im bad ass`
`22:25.43`	`loonatik`	`is lame`
`22:25.52`	`loonatik`	`id rather be able to take over ironforge`
`22:25.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`WoW isn't set up for the type of system I'm refering to`
`22:25.54`	`loonatik`	`or build a city`
`22:25.55`	`Inside`	`Neuro_Medivh: Hmm, ancient MO-BBSes had that sort of reset thing.`
`22:26.01`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: it could be`
`22:26.07`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Better to start fresh.`
`22:26.19`	`loonatik`	`i liked UO because you could literally control a territory`
`22:26.20`	`loonatik`	`with force`
`22:26.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`My point is, for a game like Shadowbane to truly work, you need time limits`
`22:26.28`	`loonatik`	`we totally owned the yew moongate`
`22:26.32`	`loonatik`	`if anyone came there they would die`
`22:26.33`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`they tried the open ended FPS thing with Planetside`
`22:26.39`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: and planetside rocked`
`22:26.47`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Yes, until you got tired`
`22:26.53`	`loonatik`	`like you do with most FPS`
`22:26.54`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and realized nothing really MATTERED`
`22:26.56`	`loonatik`	`there wasent enough content`
`22:26.57`	`loonatik`	`or things to build`
`22:27.02`	`loonatik`	`[it had your "Reset button" in it`
`22:27.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, it had self-designed limits`
`22:27.25`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it was impossible to take over the world in Planetside`
`22:27.35`	`loonatik`	`which is a good thing`
`22:27.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`i.e. it was hardcoded into the game`
`22:27.42`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`not really`
`22:27.46`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it meant you couldn't ever win`
`22:27.47`	`loonatik`	`no, you could take over all continents`
`22:27.49`	`loonatik`	`if you could`
`22:27.51`	`loonatik`	`right`
`22:27.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No`
`22:27.56`	`loonatik`	`whats wrong with that?`
`22:28.04`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the game wouldn't allow that much of a player imbalance`
`22:28.06`	`loonatik`	`you couldnt take over their home base`
`22:28.20`	`loonatik`	`well, your lack of ability due to not enough forces is one thing`
`22:28.23`	`loonatik`	`you COULD do it`
`22:28.25`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Competative based games need a win-lose paradigm`
`22:28.33`	`loonatik`	`i dont agree`
`22:28.46`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you think paladin vs paladin is exciting?`
`22:28.48`	`loonatik`	`it doesnt have to be that linear`
`22:28.52`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`where neither side can win?`
`22:29.02`	`loonatik`	`i think there is more than one big win`
`22:29.05`	`loonatik`	`or one big loss`
`22:29.14`	`Kaligar`	`were there new functionjn for pet feeding?`
`22:29.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`then why do people get bored of 20+ hour AVs?`
`22:29.31`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yes, /cast Feed Pet`
`22:29.36`	`loonatik`	`because you dont end up owning the area`
`22:29.40`	`loonatik`	`and can do more with it`
`22:29.42`	`MentalPower`	`--/cast Feed pet; /use Some Random Food`
`22:29.44`	`loonatik`	`theres not enough depth to it`
`22:29.47`	`Kaligar`	`how do you select the item?`
`22:29.50`	`Kaligar`	`k`
`22:29.55`	`loonatik`	`if it was like you could take over a city in wow`
`22:29.55`	`MentalPower`	`with the /use command`
`22:29.56`	`loonatik`	`and own it`
`22:29.58`	`loonatik`	`and make money off it`
`22:29.59`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, people get bored of 20 hour AVs because nothing is being accomplished`
`22:29.59`	`loonatik`	`setup shops`
`22:30.00`	`loonatik`	`do MORE`
`22:30.04`	`MentalPower`	`note that its two lines not one`
`22:30.04`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: right`
`22:30.12`	`loonatik`	`but not accomplishing ANYTHING`
`22:30.22`	`loonatik`	`but not accomplishing something, and not winning the entire map`
`22:30.26`	`loonatik`	`are two different things`
`22:30.32`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Ok, loonatik, what happens in AV when Alliance wins, controls the whole map... then what?`
`22:30.41`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: if AV was a city?`
`22:30.43`	`loonatik`	`give them more to do with it`
`22:30.47`	`loonatik`	`setup shops, make money off it`
`22:30.50`	`loonatik`	`own it as a guild`
`22:30.54`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Ok, and then?`
`22:30.55`	`loonatik`	`give you bonuses for owning it`
`22:31.05`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Then you're not playing a pvp game`
`22:31.10`	`loonatik`	`lol`
`22:31.10`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you're playing SimLife`
`22:31.11`	`loonatik`	`sure you are`
`22:31.16`	`loonatik`	`simlife youc ant pvp for areas`
`22:31.24`	`loonatik`	`if you could id probably be more interested`
`22:31.40`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Ok, but once you control the area, THEN WHAT`
`22:31.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the game is over`
`22:31.47`	`loonatik`	`no`
`22:31.47`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`but you're still there`
`22:31.50`	`loonatik`	`just like when you have all your epic gear`
`22:31.53`	`loonatik`	`the game isnt over either`
`22:31.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`there's no more horde coming after you`
`22:31.56`	`loonatik`	`the point is`
`22:31.57`	`loonatik`	`give content`
`22:31.59`	`loonatik`	`give more things to do`
`22:32.04`	`loonatik`	`thats how you make a mmog good`
`22:32.07`	`loonatik`	`not more gear to grind`
`22:32.08`	`loonatik`	`or rep`
`22:32.09`	`loonatik`	`or levels`
`22:32.13`	`loonatik`	`content`
`22:32.14`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Content costs money`
`22:32.19`	`loonatik`	`heh`
`22:32.24`	`loonatik`	`yea and they are making it hand over fist`
`22:32.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you willing to shell out 40 bucks a months?`
`22:32.29`	`loonatik`	`including raising how much they made`
`22:32.30`	`loonatik`	`recently`
`22:32.34`	`loonatik`	`uh no`
`22:32.35`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No, money on a scale you can't imagine`
`22:32.36`	`loonatik`	`i pay $17]`
`22:32.40`	`loonatik`	`which is a BUTTTTTTTT load`
`22:32.40`	`loonatik`	`tot hem`
`22:32.43`	`loonatik`	`they make so much money`
`22:32.45`	`loonatik`	`its not even funny`
`22:32.46`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`17 a month pays for servers and bandwidth`
`22:32.50`	`loonatik`	`hhaha`
`22:32.51`	`loonatik`	`no`
`22:32.58`	`loonatik`	`it pays for WELLL past that`
`22:33.04`	`loonatik`	`1 a month pays for servers`
`22:33.07`	`loonatik`	`and bandwidth`
`22:33.23`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`It's paying for development of the next expansion`
`22:33.23`	`loonatik`	`they are banking out`
`22:33.24`	`loonatik`	`so dont give me that`
`22:33.27`	`loonatik`	`right`
`22:33.28`	`loonatik`	`content`
`22:33.33`	`loonatik`	`dont give me levels`
`22:33.40`	`loonatik`	`dont give me more faggot purple gear`
`22:33.42`	`loonatik`	`give me things to do`
`22:33.48`	`loonatik`	`give me an economy`
`22:33.53`	`loonatik`	`give me player housing`
`22:33.58`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`so you'd be fine if nothing in BC dropped loot?`
`22:33.58`	`loonatik`	`give me things to collect ways to make money`
`22:34.10`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`but what good is money?`
`22:34.17`	`loonatik`	`give me things to buy`
`22:34.19`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`money is not intrinsically valuable`
`22:34.21`	`loonatik`	`give me thigns to do`
`22:34.29`	`loonatik`	`it should be`
`22:34.31`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you have to have something to buy before it's worth a damn`
`22:34.33`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`No`
`22:34.35`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it's not`
`22:34.38`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`not even in real life`
`22:34.40`	`loonatik`	`it SHOULD be`
`22:34.43`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Elkano (n=elkano@ip-213-135-2-174.handshake.de)`
`22:34.45`	`loonatik`	`lol moneys not valuable in real life?`
`22:34.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's just economics`
`22:34.49`	`loonatik`	`money makes the world go round`
`22:34.50`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Not intrinsically`
`22:34.57`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`MONEY IS PAPER DUDE`
`22:35.01`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's it`
`22:35.11`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it's what money REPRESENTS`
`22:35.17`	`loonatik`	`so whats your point`
`22:35.20`	`loonatik`	`how does what your saying matter`
`22:35.22`	`loonatik`	`in what im saying`
`22:35.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`if money didn't buy anything, it'd be worthless`
`22:35.39`	`loonatik`	`and?`
`22:35.41`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's why you saying "Let me make money" is meaningless until you define what money is good for in a game`
`22:35.52`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: there are thigns to buy in this game`
`22:35.53`	`loonatik`	`but yes`
`22:35.55`	`loonatik`	`what you are saying is true`
`22:35.59`	`loonatik`	`they need to give us more shit to buy`
`22:36.02`	`loonatik`	`a better eocnomy`
`22:36.04`	`loonatik`	`more things to do`
`22:36.06`	`loonatik`	`more items`
`22:36.10`	`loonatik`	`more crap to obtain`
`22:36.16`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you just said`
`22:36.22`	`loonatik`	`not purple gear you get from sucking off a 40 man group for months on end`
`22:36.23`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`"don't give me no more faggot purples"`
`22:36.29`	`loonatik`	`right`
`22:36.31`	`loonatik`	`i want more than gear`
`22:36.32`	`loonatik`	`mounts`
`22:36.33`	`loonatik`	`houses`
`22:36.35`	`loonatik`	`items`
`22:36.37`	`loonatik`	`trinkets`
`22:36.42`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's all purples`
`22:36.45`	`Kaligar`	`repairs`
`22:36.49`	`loonatik`	`a purple house?`
`22:36.58`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Ok, what does housing do?`
`22:36.59`	`loonatik`	`give us siege weapons`
`22:37.00`	`KarlKFI`	`what's the default combat log range?`
`22:37.07`	`loonatik`	`give us the ability to setup a shop in town`
`22:37.10`	`ScytheBlade1`	`50 yards`
`22:37.13`	`ScytheBlade1`	`(by default)`
`22:37.15`	`KarlKFI`	`thx`
`22:37.19`	`loonatik`	`give us things to do`
`22:37.20`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`So, you want UO`
`22:37.23`	`loonatik`	`sure`
`22:37.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Why not play UO?`
`22:37.27`	`loonatik`	`uo was sweet`
`22:37.30`	`loonatik`	`because its dated`
`22:37.37`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`So?`
`22:37.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`The concept is still there`
`22:37.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and if you don't like trammel`
`22:37.52`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`play on the REAL server`
`22:38.01`	`loonatik`	`UO is the only game you could play where you can chop wood off a tree, carve that wood into kindling so you can start a fire to cook a cat you killed with a dog you tamed`
`22:38.03`	`Inside`	`I want a game, a massive game ;)`
`22:38.04`	`loonatik`	`depth`
`22:38.10`	`Inside`	`And a fast way to traverse it.`
`22:38.23`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: if uo had todays graphics id probably still be there`
`22:38.29`	`loonatik`	`but`
`22:38.31`	`Inside`	`loonatik: WoW has all but that tree chopping >_>`
`22:38.35`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`It does, they've upgraded the graphic engine like 3 times`
`22:38.36`	`loonatik`	`i also dont like the care bear shit they have done with the game`
`22:38.39`	`Inside`	`UO is coming out with upgraded graphics.`
`22:38.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`loonatik, then play on the Siege Perilous server`
`22:38.54`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: have you played it? lol`
`22:38.55`	`loonatik`	`i have`
`22:38.56`	`loonatik`	`the 3d engine sucked`
`22:38.57`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's teh REAL server`
`22:38.58`	`loonatik`	`it was unplayable`
`22:39.16`	`loonatik`	`and they have ruined the game for the most part`
`22:39.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`How?`
`22:39.23`	`loonatik`	`its gear based now`
`22:39.31`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`It was gear based before`
`22:39.38`	`loonatik`	`no`
`22:39.45`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the upper limit on gear was just easy to reach`
`22:39.50`	`loonatik`	`right`
`22:39.56`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`full plate and a halberd`
`22:39.58`	`loonatik`	`you didnt need 30 billion dollars worth of gear`
`22:39.59`	`loonatik`	`to go fight`
`22:40.02`	`loonatik`	`if you lost your gear`
`22:40.05`	`loonatik`	`it wasent THAT BAD`
`22:40.12`	`loonatik`	`now everything is insuranced`
`22:40.17`	`loonatik`	`you gotta have 30 billion dollars worth of gear`
`22:40.19`	`loonatik`	`or you cant compete`
`22:40.30`	`loonatik`	`i used to spend all week and make bags full of EVERYTHING i needed to pvp`
`22:40.34`	`loonatik`	`id make up 50-100 bags`
`22:40.37`	`loonatik`	`then id pvp all weekend`
`22:40.42`	`loonatik`	`and if i died id grab a new bag`
`22:40.44`	`loonatik`	`and run back out there`
`22:40.46`	`loonatik`	`it was SO much fun`
`22:41.09`	`loonatik`	`you could grind a char out with a good template in a matter of weeks`
`22:41.10`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`But you can't sustain that`
`22:41.11`	`loonatik`	`and then PLAY the game`
`22:41.15`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`people get bored`
`22:41.15`	`loonatik`	`sustain what?`
`22:41.19`	`loonatik`	`hehe no`
`22:41.22`	`loonatik`	`there was so much to do man`
`22:41.26`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that type of open ended no-resolution gameplay`
`22:41.29`	`loonatik`	`i could go tame dragons, go play factions`
`22:41.34`	`loonatik`	`pvp the yew moongate`
`22:41.36`	`loonatik`	`raid a town`
`22:41.41`	`loonatik`	`go stealing from people`
`22:41.42`	`loonatik`	`robbing houses`
`22:41.51`	`loonatik`	`go hang out on buccaners den`
`22:41.54`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`i.e. you could be a dick =)`
`22:41.56`	`loonatik`	`go raid`
`22:41.59`	`loonatik`	`no`
`22:42.01`	`loonatik`	`i helped people`
`22:42.03`	`loonatik`	`i was blue`
`22:42.05`	`loonatik`	`and went after eds`
`22:42.06`	`loonatik`	`reds`
`22:42.08`	`loonatik`	`the dicks`
`22:42.11`	`loonatik`	`the kids`
`22:42.16`	`loonatik`	`if someone was getting ganked`
`22:42.17`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`robbing houses = helping people? =)`
`22:42.17`	`loonatik`	`we woudl go help`
`22:42.27`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: depends on who you rob ;)`
`22:42.38`	`loonatik`	`my point is`
`22:42.41`	`loonatik`	`there was so much to do`
`22:42.46`	`loonatik`	`you could go around and collect rare items`
`22:42.49`	`loonatik`	`which you could sell for mad money`
`22:42.53`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge grumpey (n=Miranda@dialup-4.152.213.134.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)`
`22:42.55`	`loonatik`	`there were the arenas`
`22:42.58`	`loonatik`	`joining guilds`
`22:43.00`	`loonatik`	`fighting guilds`
`22:43.08`	`loonatik`	`crafting was huge`
`22:43.12`	`loonatik`	`not like the joke shit in wow`
`22:43.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yes, I agree with you there`
`22:43.29`	`loonatik`	`all im saying is i wnat more content`
`22:43.30`	`loonatik`	`=)`
`22:43.41`	`loonatik`	`and it sucks because we wont see a non wow clone for awhile`
`22:44.01`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`And I can concede the point, but a TON of what you want is unworkable due to the graphic design`
`22:44.16`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`most features that make UO what it is stem from it's isometric design`
`22:44.21`	`loonatik`	`yea`
`22:44.23`	`loonatik`	`like getting away`
`22:44.31`	`loonatik`	`a total newb COULD run away`
`22:44.34`	`loonatik`	`in wow its impossible`
`22:44.51`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`even the housing and crafting`
`22:44.58`	`loonatik`	`eh, they could do that man`
`22:45.04`	`loonatik`	`look at tall the buildings in major cities`
`22:45.06`	`loonatik`	`at all*`
`22:45.07`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the graphic system`
`22:45.19`	`Inside`	`May I point out second life?`
`22:45.20`	`loonatik`	`even eq2 has player housing`
`22:45.22`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`is not as condusive to it as you might think`
`22:45.24`	`loonatik`	`be it isntanced`
`22:45.26`	`loonatik`	`its still there`
`22:45.27`	`Inside`	`It's a virtual persistant world :)`
`22:45.35`	`Inside`	`It only lacks the "RPG"-ish element.`
`22:45.44`	`loonatik`	`wow cant deal with large pvp`
`22:45.45`	`Inside`	`People can build their own crap, modify their avatars.`
`22:45.47`	`loonatik`	`thats what i dont like`
`22:45.49`	`Inside`	`Attach penises..`
`22:45.52`	`Inside`	`Or multiple vaginas.`
`22:46.00`	`loonatik`	`i want siege weapons and taking over towns and large crazy fights`
`22:46.04`	`Inside`	`Create custome animation/skeleton systems`
`22:46.05`	`Teomyr`	`rofl`
`22:46.05`	`loonatik`	`you get 100 people in wow together`
`22:46.07`	`loonatik`	`and its lag city`
`22:46.19`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`My contention is still that a persistant-state PVP world eventually reaches a static equilibrium at which paying customers lose interest`
`22:46.26`	`Inside`	`The thing s..`
`22:46.33`	`Inside`	`You don't make persistant PVP the main point.`
`22:46.37`	`Inside`	`make it a possible point.`
`22:47.06`	`Inside`	`Have NPC controlled cities and have player controlled cities.`
`22:47.06`	`loonatik`	`i just disagree`
`22:47.06`	`Inside`	`Well, not NPC controlled cities, GM controlled cities.`
`22:47.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`well, that's the debate in question`
`22:47.06`	`loonatik`	`like did you play AC?`
`22:47.06`	`loonatik`	`asherons call`
`22:47.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I tried`
`22:47.10`	`loonatik`	`so you know the monoarchy system right?`
`22:47.12`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it was like EQ, without as much content`
`22:47.17`	`loonatik`	`where you could sware allegence to peopole`
`22:47.18`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`so I stuck with EQ`
`22:47.20`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`yes`
`22:47.21`	`loonatik`	`who swore allegence to others`
`22:47.27`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the fealty system`
`22:47.31`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`interesting concept`
`22:47.34`	`loonatik`	`there were massive changes in control`
`22:47.35`	`loonatik`	`all the time`
`22:47.41`	`loonatik`	`people would decide to go on their own`
`22:47.42`	`loonatik`	`and like`
`22:47.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's not what I'm refering to though`
`22:47.47`	`loonatik`	`ok lets say controlling a town in WOW`
`22:47.52`	`loonatik`	`it needs to be difficult`
`22:47.56`	`loonatik`	`you need to have a ALOOOTOT of people`
`22:47.56`	`loonatik`	`to do it`
`22:47.59`	`loonatik`	`alot of resources`
`22:48.08`	`loonatik`	`which means people would have to work together`
`22:48.10`	`Inside`	`The thing about any persistant control town..`
`22:48.16`	`Inside`	`is that you'll need to create NPCs to do mundane things.`
`22:48.19`	`loonatik`	`and when that happens thers always going to be shifts in power`
`22:48.29`	`loonatik`	`like dont make it where you create a town and then its yours and youc annot be taken out`
`22:48.31`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`you realize that BC has a town that you can control, right?`
`22:48.36`	`loonatik`	`yes`
`22:48.38`	`Inside`	`OH WOWZ ONE TOWN`
`22:48.43`	`loonatik`	`and thats what i want`
`22:48.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`hey, it's a start =)`
`22:48.53`	`Inside`	`You need to have the feudal type of system ;)`
`22:48.57`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I'm not saying the concept isn't viable`
`22:49.09`	`Inside`	`prolitareat NPCs who will do almost anything without problem :P`
`22:49.13`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I'm simply saying that it's not LONG TERM viable`
`22:49.19`	`Inside`	`Sure it is.`
`22:49.24`	`loonatik`	`but what your saying is`
`22:49.28`	`loonatik`	`a big guild is going to be able to control this town`
`22:49.30`	`loonatik`	`and never let it go`
`22:49.36`	`loonatik`	`right?`
`22:49.38`	`Inside`	`It's viable, just gonna take an ass load of programming.`
`22:49.38`	`Inside`	`xD`
`22:49.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Inside, I mean it's not viable from a gameplay standpoint`
`22:50.10`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`eventually, a few teams gain a lead that cannot be removed naturally`
`22:50.21`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`and that discourages new players`
`22:50.43`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`In a non-competative system, it's not nearly as bad`
`22:50.55`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`but look at WoW. Top guilds almost always stay on top`
`22:50.57`	`Inside`	`You just programmatically create checks and balances on them.`
`22:51.04`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`then you get Planetside`
`22:51.09`	`Inside`	`They're top because they don't ever ever stand a chance to lose anything.`
`22:51.14`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`where the game prevents any kind of static solution`
`22:51.20`	`Inside`	`That T3 gear is yours to keep -- forever.`
`22:51.31`	`Inside`	`Also, there's nothing really to compete with in WoW.`
`22:51.36`	`Inside`	`Sure, you got PVP and BGs and so on`
`22:51.37`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge loonatik (i=loonatik@dangerinc.net)`
`22:51.39`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`I know, that's why it works`
`22:51.42`	`loonatik`	`sorry got dropped`
`22:51.45`	`Inside`	`That's why it sucks and is static.`
`22:51.53`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`it still works`
`22:51.57`	`Inside`	`Yeah, it works.`
`22:52.00`	`Inside`	`Nobody is contesting that.`
`22:52.08`	`Inside`	`We're just saying we want a more dynamic world :P`
`22:52.12`	`loonatik`	`all im saying is, as long as you make it difficult enough where one guild simply cannot do it, where it takes teamwork there will be shifts in power/people lose interest`
`22:52.19`	`loonatik`	`and as long as you give people a way to participate`
`22:52.22`	`loonatik`	`even at smaller levels`
`22:52.24`	`loonatik`	`like owning a shop`
`22:52.25`	`loonatik`	`in the town`
`22:52.28`	`loonatik`	`or something smaller`
`22:52.33`	`loonatik`	`it would be hella fun`
`22:52.36`	`Inside`	`Yeah`
`22:52.42`	`Inside`	`The biggest thing that players want to do is feel like they're participating.`
`22:52.45`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`But a persistant state world, where you could control towns and such, you reach a point where new players don't wanna join anymore cause they don't feel competative`
`22:52.59`	`Inside`	`Go play Blockland -- that's the funnest game ever! You get some non-lego branded bricks and can make anything out of em.`
`22:53.10`	`Inside`	`Why is Garry's mod one of the most popular HL2 mods? Cause you can build shit out of it.`
`22:53.27`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: i just dont think that even in a persistant world people will gain the upper hand and be able to hold it indenfitely`
`22:53.34`	`Inside`	`Well`
`22:53.36`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`One team? Maybe not`
`22:53.36`	`Inside`	`Look at EVE`
`22:53.43`	`loonatik`	`yea eve is ag ood example`
`22:53.47`	`loonatik`	`they do it in eve`
`22:53.54`	`loonatik`	`that game is fun as hell`
`22:53.57`	`Inside`	`The thing is, you create enough world for any ammount of teams to have their piece of ground :P`
`22:54.06`	`loonatik`	`you can only go so big though`
`22:54.10`	`Inside`	`Why?`
`22:54.14`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Inside, then you lose the competative nature`
`22:54.16`	`loonatik`	`well, in wow the graphics`
`22:54.21`	`loonatik`	`you couldnt have endless area`
`22:54.25`	`loonatik`	`or the install would be too big`
`22:54.25`	`Inside`	`Why not?`
`22:54.29`	`Inside`	`Pfft.`
`22:54.35`	`Inside`	`You create 5-10 different trees`
`22:54.36`	`loonatik`	`you suggested generated`
`22:54.38`	`loonatik`	`generation sucks`
`22:54.40`	`Inside`	`and have a massive forest.`
`22:54.41`	`loonatik`	`look at swg`
`22:54.43`	`loonatik`	`the world blew`
`22:54.44`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Actually, WoW does have endless area. Instances.`
`22:54.46`	`loonatik`	`wow looks so much better`
`22:54.50`	`loonatik`	`Neuro_Medivh: yea but instances suck`
`22:54.52`	`Inside`	`That's one thing.`
`22:54.52`	`loonatik`	`imo`
`22:54.53`	`loonatik`	`but`
`22:54.54`	`loonatik`	`thats one way`
`22:54.57`	`Inside`	`Just cause one team did it ba.`
`22:55.07`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`that's what you're suggesting. Every team gets their own piece of land.`
`22:55.09`	`Inside`	`There's a massive terrain generator -- it's not a game, just a generator, and it was awesome.`
`22:55.16`	`loonatik`	`Inside: all im saying is you have to hand tailor the land`
`22:55.19`	`loonatik`	`for it to look good`
`22:55.21`	`loonatik`	`imo`
`22:55.22`	`Inside`	`Why?`
`22:55.28`	`Inside`	`You just create a decent generator.`
`22:55.32`	`Inside`	`I'm not saying it's easy..`
`22:55.41`	`Inside`	`But the majority of real life terrain looks like shit anyways.`
`22:55.43`	`loonatik`	`but the ways you could generate land you cant have some of the effects`
`22:55.50`	`Inside`	`Like what?`
`22:56.02`	`Inside`	`Allow players a way to terraform the terrain just a tiny bit :P`
`22:56.03`	`loonatik`	`im trying to think of a place in wow`
`22:56.06`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Inside, in that case, there's no real competition. There is no lack of resources, you just go generate some more terrain`
`22:56.14`	`loonatik`	`hrmm`
`22:56.25`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Also, it illustrates the key difference between real life and games`
`22:56.32`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`in real life, conflict is a byproduct`
`22:56.44`	`Inside`	`That's the thing, really..`
`22:56.46`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the point of war is to take something, or win some objective`
`22:56.47`	`loonatik`	`i also think that you wouldnt want it so big`
`22:56.53`	`Inside`	`Not all players want conflict!`
`22:56.54`	`loonatik`	`i dunno`
`22:56.55`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@172.151-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)`
`22:56.57`	`Inside`	`Some players just want to build crap :)`
`22:56.57`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`the point of a game is the conflict itself`
`22:57.01`	`loonatik`	`right`
`22:57.24`	`loonatik`	`so you would want people to have to fight for a spot of land`
`22:57.24`	`loonatik`	`you could do that by giving certian land more value`
`22:57.24`	`loonatik`	`resource wise`
`22:57.24`	`loonatik`	`money wise`
`22:57.24`	`loonatik`	`kinda like in UO the houses near towns`
`22:57.27`	`ScytheBlade1`	`wow, that'd be gay`
`22:57.28`	`Inside`	`The kind of an MMO I want is that players can create their own conflict. Me vs. nature. Me vs. NPCs. Me vs. Other players.`
`22:57.29`	`loonatik`	`were worth a lotof money`
`22:57.30`	`ScytheBlade1`	`WoW landgrab!!!`
`22:57.38`	`Inside`	`That'd be awesome xP`
`22:57.41`	`loonatik`	`ScytheBlade1: it woudl rock`
`22:57.41`	`loonatik`	`=)`
`22:57.52`	`ScytheBlade1`	`loonatik, no it wouldn't.`
`22:57.53`	`loonatik`	`i used to buy/sell real estate in UO`
`22:57.56`	`loonatik`	`yes it would`
`22:57.56`	`Inside`	`Hehe`
`22:57.57`	`ScytheBlade1`	`And likewise, that's all opinion`
`22:58.00`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Inside, right, the 2x2 rubrik`
`22:58.11`	`loonatik`	`i used to buy/sell real estate in UO, i made so much money doing it`
`22:58.15`	`loonatik`	`it was a blast`
`22:58.20`	`ScytheBlade1`	`If I wanted to buy and sell land`
`22:58.23`	`loonatik`	`and people who had houses near towns`
`22:58.24`	`ScytheBlade1`	`I'd play Sim City`
`22:58.26`	`loonatik`	`really really made good money`
`22:58.30`	`loonatik`	`ScytheBlade1: thats fine`
`22:58.31`	`Inside`	`A player/team should be able to say "build a palisade here, build a shop there, and spend 30G on hiring 5 level 50 guards to patrol the city"`
`22:58.32`	`loonatik`	`you dont have too`
`22:58.34`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`Active vs Interactive, Environment vs Players`
`22:58.36`	`loonatik`	`ScytheBlade1: it shouldnt be manditory`
`22:58.37`	`loonatik`	`but for me`
`22:58.38`	`loonatik`	`id like too`
`22:58.45`	`loonatik`	`and if i coudl buy land and setup a shop you could use`
`22:58.48`	`loonatik`	`that would benifit us both`
`22:58.54`	`Inside`	`Yeah ;)`
`22:58.58`	`loonatik`	`what if i could setup a shop near a dungeon you liked`
`22:59.00`	`loonatik`	`and sell things`
`22:59.04`	`loonatik`	`to help you`
`22:59.10`	`Inside`	`That's what I did in FFXI c_c`
`22:59.16`	`loonatik`	`id have fun in doing so, and you would benifit`
`22:59.27`	`Inside`	`You could have bazaars -- I parked myself at fishing docks to sell fishing gear, outside of dungeons to sell food.`
`22:59.43`	`Inside`	`Outside the cloth craft guild to sell cloth parts..`
`22:59.55`	`loonatik`	`depth`
`22:59.55`	`loonatik`	`content`
`22:59.57`	`loonatik`	`thats what we need`
`23:00.09`	`Inside`	`Yup.`
`23:00.11`	`loonatik`	`ok ima go back to scripting =P`
`23:00.15`	`Inside`	`Same`
`23:00.17`	`loonatik`	`good conversation guys`
`23:00.27`	`Inside`	`Wanna finish this 3D multi-player marble madness thing.`
`23:00.32`	`Inside`	`Third rewrite a go go >_<`
`23:01.45`	`thr`	`seriously`
`23:01.51`	`thr`	`why do people have to twink`
`23:01.58`	`Inside`	`Why not?`
`23:02.03`	`thr`	`are they so shit at pvp they have to use lvl60 enchants to be able to kill someone?`
`23:02.03`	`Inside`	`Got money, got time, want to be excellent.`
`23:02.16`	`Inside`	`I'm working on my lvl 19 rogue right now ;p`
`23:02.19`	`thr`	`well`
`23:02.20`	`thr`	`point is`
`23:02.22`	`thr`	`it's still stupid ;(`
`23:02.26`	`thr`	`detstroys low lvl BGs`
`23:02.33`	`Inside`	`They should have a twink division.`
`23:02.45`	`Inside`	`Or have a gear vs. enemy sort of thing.`
`23:02.48`	`Neuro_Medivh`	`btw, classic Multiplayer archetype article: http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm`
`23:03.08`	`Inside`	`where honor granted is modified through a total worth modifier.`
`23:03.24`	`thr`	`well`
`23:03.31`	`thr`	`it's not like that now, a good idea maybe`
`23:03.38`	`thr`	`but it's still so annoying`
`23:06.15`	`thr`	`When the only reason you loose to someone is because he's twinked`
`23:06.20`	`thr`	`That's, gah.. to much`
`23:06.54`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Mike-N-Go (n=Mike@64.193.93.197)`
`23:19.06`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge SP\|Sorren (n=astrayca@adsl-75-26-190-97.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)`
`23:22.29`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge JoshBork1 (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu)`
`23:37.29`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Plorkyeran (n=Knightki@155.33.136.174)`
`23:41.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (i=the_real@85.24.43.252)`
`23:43.59`	`Maldivia`	`Uhh... UnitIsAFK!`
`23:48.42`	`cladhaire`	`=)`
`23:59.55`	`Maldivia`	`another function, that's been on the Most Wanted list :)`

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