| 00:01.31 | Qzot | MentalPower: Hmm. Changing the DB format would seem to indicate that there's little hope of a patch for the current version. |
| 00:01.48 | Qzot | No point doing the work twice. |
| 00:01.50 | MentalPower | nah, 4.0 is our revamp version |
| 00:02.01 | MentalPower | ah, gotcha, right |
| 00:02.08 | MentalPower | the patch would be for 4.0 |
| 00:02.25 | MentalPower | the current 3.8 branch is closed |
| 00:02.49 | Qzot | Okay. What's the earliest you can imagine releasing 4.0? |
| 00:04.41 | MentalPower | next WoW patch (TBC) |
| 00:04.54 | MentalPower | we do released after blizzard does patches |
| 00:05.04 | Qzot | MentalPower: As to which is fastest, Iriel might chime in, but for most compilers, those would be identical. |
| 00:05.05 | MentalPower | s/released/releases/ |
| 00:05.42 | Kirov | MentalPower - that including Itemizer? |
| 00:06.20 | MentalPower | Itemizer *will* be in Auctioneer 4.0, but if its completed before, then it will also be released stand alone |
| 00:10.02 | Qzot | MentalPower: If you really care about performance (i.e., you have profiled the situation and determined this is a bottleneck), you might test to see if the following is faster: |
| 00:10.04 | Qzot | --Qzot's Version |
| 00:10.04 | Qzot | function numberFromString(number) |
| 00:10.04 | Qzot | end |
| 00:10.46 | Qzot | Eep. There was a tab in the 2nd line, so it sent it to NickServ. :P |
| 00:10.59 | MentalPower | with all honesty, I'm nitpicking. its mainly an academic question |
| 00:11.04 | Qzot | http://wowi.pastey.net/1309 |
| 00:12.28 | Qzot | Later. |
| 00:13.05 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Insa (n=insa@62.76-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 00:13.14 | Kirov | Why not just tonumber(number) ? |
| 00:15.18 | Iriel | Indeed, that's by far the best implementation |
| 00:15.29 | MentalPower | hmm... tonumber("nil"") would return nil |
| 00:15.33 | Kirov | yes |
| 00:15.35 | Iriel | unless you have a LOT of "<nil>"s |
| 00:15.55 | MentalPower | anywho, my question still stands, in general which would be faster? |
| 00:16.15 | Iriel | if your data is predominantly "<nil>" then you're better off with the test |
| 00:16.34 | MentalPower | if .. then ... else .. end || if ... then ... end return |
| 00:17.01 | Iriel | The if version and the boolean version generally map to the same bytecode |
| 00:17.34 | Iriel | So I expect all 3 of them to perform the same |
| 00:18.04 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com) |
| 00:18.16 | Iriel | And of of course, abandoning numberFromString entirely and just using tonumber is fastest of all |
| 00:18.25 | Iriel | Especially if you grab a local reference to it 8-) |
| 00:19.03 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight (n=ckknight@198.199.136.119) |
| 00:19.03 | Kirov | I would imagine all three numberFromString functions are slower than just tonumber() |
| 00:19.13 | Kirov | what iriel just said |
| 00:19.22 | Kirov | two function calls vs. one |
| 00:19.35 | Kirov | global function calls being one of the slower things in lua. |
| 00:19.44 | Iriel | actually you could just do local numberFromString = tonumber; |
| 00:19.51 | Iriel | then you have no code to change and no excess overhead |
| 00:19.54 | ckknight | hey all |
| 00:20.10 | Cairenn | evening ckknight |
| 00:20.24 | Kirov | lo |
| 00:20.25 | MentalPower | ok, that resolves that specific case. but what about in general? |
| 00:20.55 | Mikk | tonumber(bleh) or 0 |
| 00:21.16 | *** join/#wowi-lounge axxo (n=axxo@83.217.70.247) |
| 00:21.29 | Mikk | with a "local tonumber=tonumber" if it's really time critical, of course |
| 00:21.44 | Kirov | MentalPower - general case they're the same. |
| 00:22.02 | Kirkburn | Mikk, you knopw Bloodhoof is down for 36 hours? |
| 00:22.08 | Mikk | o.O |
| 00:22.11 | Mikk | You're shitting me? |
| 00:22.14 | Iriel | if X then return end return / if X then return else return end / return X and Y or Z (properly crafted) all resolve to the same bytecode |
| 00:22.17 | Kirkburn | My own realm is also down for 36 hours (Droganblight) |
| 00:22.25 | Kirkburn | (This is EU btw, at all) |
| 00:22.40 | Kirkburn | New hardware at least :P |
| 00:22.47 | Mikk | Iriel: aye but "something or another" is a lot cleaner to write and read =) |
| 00:22.51 | Mikk | (imo) |
| 00:22.56 | Kirkburn | But I'm not joking, it's already down |
| 00:23.04 | MentalPower | Thanks Iriel :) |
| 00:24.26 | Iriel | I generally prefer explicit ifs for all but the most stylish of expressions 8-) |
| 00:25.20 | Mikk | Great, I was actually looking forward to doing some playing today :-/ |
| 00:26.18 | Mikk | Iriel: Aww c'mon. "Foo or on-nil-default" is hardly clutter :-P |
| 00:27.19 | Mikk | (Granted, if you need to do the test and default several times, you shouldn't be embedding it in several expressions. That's inviting disaster as per usual) |
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| 00:30.38 | Kirov | how do I run a file from lua command line (using wowbench) |
| 00:31.01 | Hatsuki | Kirkburn: is somewhere list of those realms?-O |
| 00:31.18 | Cairenn | log in screen? |
| 00:31.34 | Mikk | Kirkburn: dofile("blah.lua") |
| 00:31.37 | Mikk | err |
| 00:31.40 | Mikk | Kirov: |
| 00:31.52 | Hatsuki | there isnt, just "several realms" |
| 00:34.12 | Kirov | is there an equivalent to debugprofilestart in stand alone lua? |
| 00:35.22 | Kirov | Everything i'm seeing is in seconds, not milliseconds |
| 00:35.31 | Kirov | or nanoseconds |
| 00:35.42 | Kirov | whatever debugprofile is in |
| 00:36.37 | MentalPower | debugprofile is in milliseconds with floating point presicion |
| 00:36.52 | MentalPower | you can use GetTime() |
| 00:41.23 | Kirov | MentalPower - did some test, neither of those two options are measurably different. |
| 00:41.46 | MentalPower | *nod* thanks |
| 00:41.53 | Kirov | doing it on a table of 100000 randomly a number or "<nil>" |
| 00:42.02 | Kirkburn | The list is on the Realm Status forum, Hatsuki & Mikk |
| 00:42.08 | Kirov | tonumber by itself is measurably slower |
| 00:43.06 | MentalPower | huh? whatcha mean? |
| 00:43.08 | Kirov | By measurably I mean that over 1,000,000 iterations it's 0.02 seconds slower |
| 00:44.22 | Kirov | that's on a table that's 75% "<nil>" strings btw |
| 00:44.59 | Kirov | on a table that's 25% "<nil"> strings tonumber is faster by 0.1 seconds on a million iterations |
| 00:45.39 | MentalPower | ok, I think I'll just change to using just plain tonumber |
| 00:46.33 | Kirov | 100% "<nil>" is 0.1 slower |
| 00:47.39 | Kirov | oh, and in this test, all the valid numbers are being tostring() ed |
| 00:50.27 | Kirov | oddly, I'm seeing some curious abarations now that I've stored them all as numbers. |
| 00:50.38 | Kirov | with "<nil>" as just "" |
| 00:50.51 | Kirov | it's about a second and a half faster overall. |
| 00:51.08 | Mikk | It's probably being slower because you're destroying variables when assigning nil to them |
| 00:51.17 | Mikk | And re-creating them when assigning something else |
| 00:51.21 | Mikk | As opposed to just replacing values |
| 00:51.32 | Kirov | I'm not assigning the values to anything |
| 00:51.43 | Kirov | the returns are going in to the wild |
| 00:51.58 | Kirov | btw, the non-else function appears faster |
| 00:52.21 | Kirov | ah, there we go, just a fluke |
| 00:52.32 | Kirov | local tonumber = tonumber is the fastest |
| 00:53.11 | Kirov | 1.7 seconds with them all as strings. 0.3 seconds with them all numbers and "" for nil |
| 00:53.17 | Kirov | for a million iterations. |
| 00:53.30 | Kirov | this is stand alone lua, which is a ton ton faster than wow. |
| 00:55.34 | Plorkyeran | Why are you trying to optimize something that takes a microsecond? |
| 00:58.15 | Industrial | batch processing? |
| 00:58.47 | Kirov | Plorkyeran - because when you start doing a million of them you want to know if it's going to take 0.3 of a second or 1.7 seconds? |
| 00:58.48 | Industrial | and for fun, i guess |
| 00:58.49 | Industrial | :P |
| 00:59.44 | Kirov | i wonder if it's possible to figure out how fast the cpu is vs. video card with wow. |
| 01:00.16 | Kirov | and does anyone know if wow runs lua in a second thread? |
| 01:00.33 | Kirov | ie: do all the in-world stuff at the same time as the interface |
| 01:00.40 | Kirov | bah, gotta go |
| 01:00.48 | Cairenn | later Kirov |
| 01:02.45 | Industrial | you can almost hear him think |
| 01:02.48 | Industrial | :P |
| 01:05.10 | cladhaire | So.. is anyone else having the bug where you accept a queue into WSG.. and you stay mounted? |
| 01:05.17 | cladhaire | cause its imba |
| 01:06.48 | cladhaire | hehe this rocks =) |
| 01:08.42 | Thrae | cladhaire: Can you even run the flag while mounted now? :D |
| 01:09.27 | cladhaire | heheh you can't mount indoors |
| 01:09.27 | cladhaire | but you can start the battle mounted =) |
| 01:09.37 | Thrae | Does it unmount you when you go into the enemy base? |
| 01:10.06 | *** join/#wowi-lounge malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-179-20-11.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 01:10.58 | malreth | 3 hours... |
| 01:11.08 | malreth | i want those hours of my life back |
| 01:11.52 | Cairenn | uh oh |
| 01:12.38 | malreth | today, the big... main computer lab decided today is the day it would just spontaneously stop working right at the end of the work day |
| 01:13.10 | malreth | and since it is unacceptable to leave the lab in a non-working state overnight since students use it to do school work and assignments... |
| 01:13.20 | malreth | i have to stay here and fix the machines |
| 01:13.42 | malreth | it takes an hour to reimage a single lab computer... these images are huge |
| 01:13.56 | malreth | 14 computers to be fixed |
| 01:14.08 | Guillotine | Cladhaire: any chance you're going to add rejuv/regrowth to PR? |
| 01:14.09 | malreth | oh... |
| 01:14.14 | malreth | do the math... go ahead |
| 01:14.19 | malreth | come back when you have an answer |
| 01:15.56 | Mikk | malreth: "spontaneously"? |
| 01:16.02 | Mikk | sounds like a student having fun |
| 01:16.14 | malreth | yes... 14 macs all just up and kernel panicked. |
| 01:16.37 | malreth | and if the panic, the normal file rebuilding solution doesn't work... it requires a working OS |
| 01:16.43 | malreth | so i have to reimage them all |
| 01:17.08 | malreth | oh, and the local network doesn't support multicasting... so it's the grand ol' dark ages |
| 01:17.19 | malreth | with external hard drives and firewire cables |
| 01:18.31 | malreth | and for some reason, I can't get the computers to netboot to the rebuilding share... |
| 01:18.44 | malreth | well, a few of them worked... at least that saved some time |
| 01:19.55 | Thrae | I was wondering if it would be worth it for SVN to have an addon and its LoD modules all in one directory, with each module directory containing a "ModuleName.toc" which only loads "ModuleName.xml". Plugin.xml only has a <Script> line which loads ../AddonName/Plugins/ModuleName.xml, which then loads all the files that particular module needs. That way you can keep all the updates centralized to a single addon directory. |
| 01:22.56 | Iriel | What does that gain you though, as soon as you find someone who uses one of the LoD dependencies somewhere else you've broken them |
| 01:27.47 | AnduinLothar | wonder how they paniced w/o root access |
| 01:27.59 | AnduinLothar | did you not grab the latest securty update? |
| 01:28.24 | AnduinLothar | and usually kernal panics you can just reboot from |
| 01:29.19 | malreth | Well, a reboot isn't fixing these |
| 01:29.34 | AnduinLothar | are they not running 10.3 or higher? |
| 01:29.43 | malreth | 10.4.8 |
| 01:29.48 | AnduinLothar | mmm |
| 01:30.12 | malreth | the logs in single user mode indicate it's several kernel extensions that are corrupt on the file system |
| 01:30.19 | malreth | same ones on all the affected machines |
| 01:30.36 | Esamynn | sounds like fun |
| 01:30.41 | AnduinLothar | don't those req root access to edit? |
| 01:30.50 | malreth | yeah |
| 01:30.55 | malreth | but here's what i think |
| 01:31.19 | AnduinLothar | so why can't you just boot from a boot disk and repair the corrupted files |
| 01:31.19 | malreth | the central file server for the lab contains a copy of every file on the machine |
| 01:31.31 | malreth | every machine is a clone of each other |
| 01:31.54 | malreth | if the central file store got corrupt... say a neutrino went right through the disk |
| 01:32.05 | malreth | it doesn't have to be a neutrino... |
| 01:32.10 | malreth | but you understand |
| 01:32.51 | malreth | every machine does a diff against the central file store and updates files as necessary everytime someone logs out of a lab computer |
| 01:32.55 | Esamynn | ok, I have to try this |
| 01:32.58 | Esamynn | ~neutrino |
| 01:33.01 | purl | extra, extra, read all about it, neutrino is a redesign of QNX around a modern microkernel, even faster then QNX. It also has Linux binary compatibility! |
| 01:33.13 | malreth | haha! |
| 01:33.14 | Esamynn | booo |
| 01:33.54 | malreth | AnduinLothar: you make a good point... |
| 01:33.58 | MentalPower | Esamynn: try ~ugt |
| 01:34.03 | malreth | one sec... |
| 01:34.30 | Esamynn | malreth: no no, don't tell him that, he'll start getting ideas..... |
| 01:34.46 | MentalPower | ~ugt |
| 01:34.47 | purl | ugt is probably Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 01:35.06 | Esamynn | MentalPower: :P |
| 01:35.13 | AnduinLothar | the only reason that wouldn't work would be if the file containing your root password is also corrupt |
| 01:35.48 | malreth | we don't need no steenkin root password... we have single user console |
| 01:36.02 | AnduinLothar | mmhmm |
| 01:36.34 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphen (n=masked@c-71-227-151-230.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 01:37.00 | malreth | it's probably because i thought about japanese schoolgirl porn and God is now punishing me |
| 01:37.31 | zenzelezz | can't be, there's be a lot more corrupted filesystems then |
| 01:37.33 | MentalPower | God has a sense of humor |
| 01:37.43 | zenzelezz | *there'd |
| 01:38.19 | Mikk | "uhoh" |
| 01:39.02 | malreth | i should have thought of the easy solution to this |
| 01:39.29 | malreth | but i haven't eaten in 9 hours... i'm getting lightheaded |
| 01:39.38 | AnduinLothar | :P |
| 01:40.00 | Esamynn | does GetCVar always return a string? |
| 01:41.58 | Mikk | yes |
| 01:42.08 | Esamynn | k, thats what it looked like, thanks |
| 01:42.31 | Mikk | (that is to say, i've scanned every damn cvar i know of, and haven't seen anything other than a string yet) |
| 01:42.47 | Esamynn | good enough for me |
| 01:44.05 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kirov (n=Kirov@c-71-198-144-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 01:45.08 | Kirov | woot |
| 01:45.12 | Cairenn | later Iriel |
| 01:45.48 | *** join/#wowi-lounge FallenAngel (n=me@athedsl-133202.otenet.gr) |
| 01:46.41 | FallenAngel | Greetings, is anyone from here in charge of the administration of the wowwiki portal ? |
| 01:47.35 | Iriel | Though I dont think " in charge " applies, they're both quite involved with it though |
| 01:48.52 | malreth | okay... so a straight copy of the files from a working system didn't work... but it got me thinking |
| 01:49.12 | malreth | and what works is an Archive and Install from a OS X install disk |
| 01:49.39 | malreth | after that, the system works just fine, and I can initiate a manual file rebuild from the server to clean up all the mess automatically |
| 01:49.52 | malreth | takes 10 min per machine |
| 01:51.15 | Cairenn | malreth: sounds a damn sight better than what you were facing |
| 01:51.34 | malreth | a quick reinstall of Radmind... which is easy since the installer is still right on the HD where it should be... |
| 01:52.58 | malreth | and since technically radmind just has to delete the extra archive files and very little needs to be transferred over the network, rebuilding should take just a minute or two |
| 02:02.14 | AnduinLothar | why doesn't just replacing the files work? |
| 02:02.47 | AnduinLothar | and you realize you have to run software update to get all the patches |
| 02:15.47 | Mikk | Re WoWWiki: The one "in charge" would be Rustak, as he owns the box etc. But he doesn't hang out here. Me and Kirkburn are wiki admins though. |
| 02:16.32 | Kirkburn | And Fandyllic is the guy below Rustak and above us :) |
| 02:16.45 | Mikk | And he's also not here (usually) :-P |
| 02:17.38 | MentalPower | what about AlexYoshi? |
| 02:17.59 | MentalPower | or was he never part of WoWWiki? |
| 02:19.49 | Cairenn | I don't *think* Alex had much to do with the Wiki, but I may very well be incorrect |
| 02:20.23 | Cairenn | (wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last) |
| 02:22.07 | AnduinLothar | never staff. he did a lot of the origonal formatting and data adding |
| 02:22.37 | AnduinLothar | origonal wiki owner was Cosmos staff |
| 02:23.50 | Cairenn | *nod* I remember that |
| 02:24.22 | AnduinLothar | but then back in the day Comsos WAS wow modding |
| 02:24.47 | AnduinLothar | everything else was just people's own links on forums |
| 02:25.22 | AnduinLothar | anyway, i dunno if the origonal owner has anywthing to do with the wiki any more |
| 02:27.31 | Mikk | Actually Alex was and is a wiki admin |
| 02:28.01 | Mikk | (But being a wiki admin is really only an empowered janitor when it gets right down to it =)) |
| 02:28.31 | Mikk | http://www.wowwiki.com/Administrators |
| 02:28.41 | AnduinLothar | right, he has admin, but he hasn't used it |
| 02:28.51 | Mikk | Not much no |
| 02:28.54 | AnduinLothar | recently |
| 02:29.02 | Mikk | No, nothing recently at all |
| 02:30.25 | Esamynn | back in a bit |
| 02:34.29 | MentalPower | Question: Does "local someVariable = functionA() or functionB();" short circuit if FunctionA returns something or does it call both functions? |
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| 02:35.55 | MentalPower | WB |
| 02:35.55 | MentalPower | WB all that got the boot |
| 02:35.55 | *** join/#wowi-lounge _B (i=isis@217.146.90.199) |
| 02:35.55 | Mikk | Except they saw _US_ getting the boot, of course :-P |
| 02:35.55 | Thrae | MentalPower: Seems like it would only call functionB() if functionA() returns nothing or the return begins with a variable that is false |
| 02:36.20 | MentalPower | right, thats what I want |
| 02:36.21 | MentalPower | thanks Thrae |
| 02:37.07 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Esamynn (n=jbcc@207.6.94.35) |
| 02:38.13 | Thrae | Lua allows a lot of flexibility in its syntax, both functions could return nothing and not produce an error. I believe 'nil' is the equivilent of 'undefined'. |
| 02:38.26 | Esamynn | it is |
| 02:38.32 | MentalPower | yup |
| 02:38.43 | MentalPower | Esamynn: the original question was |
| 02:38.45 | MentalPower | Question: Does "local someVariable = functionA() or functionB();" short circuit if FunctionA returns something or does it call both functions? |
| 02:39.01 | Esamynn | agg' |
| 02:39.03 | MentalPower | and Thrae answered yes, it short-circuits |
| 02:39.03 | Esamynn | ahh* |
| 02:39.50 | Thrae | MentalPower: I didn't say it "short-circuits" |
| 02:40.12 | MentalPower | <Thrae>MentalPower: Seems like it would only call functionB() if functionA() returns nothing or the return begins with a variable that is false |
| 02:40.19 | Thrae | That's like saying it has a logical error, which it doesn't, it performs exactly as it should |
| 02:40.20 | MentalPower | if you wanna be picky :) |
| 02:40.37 | Esamynn | more specifically, both 'and' and 'or' will always return the exact result of one of their operators, and that that return doesn't have to be a boolean value |
| 02:41.07 | Thrae | or is a logical operator. if the return value of functionA() is evaluated to "true", then functionB() will not be called as it does not need to be called. |
| 02:41.45 | MentalPower | yeah, I know *that*, I was just curious about if Lua calls both functions, or if it calls functionA checks the return and if its non false/nil then it calls functionB |
| 02:41.57 | MentalPower | right |
| 02:42.11 | MentalPower | typing speed == notVeryFastToday |
| 02:42.25 | Thrae | Just like how in C, you can do ( TestSomething() || TestSomethingElse() ) <-- TestSomethingElse() will only be called if TestSomething() returns <=0 |
| 02:42.41 | MentalPower | again, many thanks |
| 02:42.50 | Esamynn | This leads us to the Lua idiom: 'a and b or c ' ;) |
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| 02:43.30 | Esamynn | which is equivalent to the C expression 'a ? b : c' unless b evaluates to false |
| 02:44.01 | Thrae | Esamynn: I know people like to not use parentheses when possible in Lua, but "foo and bar or foobar" is a case where they probably should unles |
| 02:44.06 | Esamynn | sorry, sometimes I can't help myself ;) |
| 02:44.21 | Thrae | s/unles/even if they intend that behavior/ |
| 02:44.43 | Esamynn | or they want to do an assignment in one line |
| 02:45.49 | Thrae | Even with assignments, I'd add parentheses so they are correct on the behavior. |
| 02:46.24 | Thrae | Unless you don't care about other people understanding and modifying your code, then screw it :D |
| 02:46.47 | Thrae | I also believe in liberal comments in compiled languages like C/C++. |
| 02:53.13 | Esamynn | by parentheses you mean an if then? |
| 02:53.13 | Thrae | "foo " .. ((db["ShowName"] and UnitName(unit)) or "Unnamed") .. " bar" |
| 02:53.55 | Esamynn | that doesn't escape the equivalent of you will get "Unnamed" from that statement if UnitName(unit) returns nil or false, regardless of the return value of db["ShowName"] |
| 02:54.19 | Esamynn | s/equivalent of/fact that/ |
| 02:55.28 | Thrae | Esamynn: I thought and came before or? a and b or c == (a and b) or c? |
| 02:56.19 | ckknight | Thrae, that's how it'd be, granted, it's in-order, meaning a or b and c => (a or b) and c |
| 02:56.20 | ckknight | afaik. |
| 02:56.24 | ckknight | lemme test |
| 02:56.51 | Thrae | ckknight: pil says and has a higher priority then or, not they're same |
| 02:57.01 | ckknight | hrm |
| 02:57.02 | ckknight | ... |
| 02:57.12 | Thrae | http://www.lua.org/pil/3.5.html |
| 02:57.17 | Esamynn | Thrae: it does |
| 02:57.34 | Esamynn | what i'm saying is that the idiom is not exactly equivalent to a ? b : c |
| 02:57.50 | Esamynn | it is equivalent as long as b evaluates to true |
| 02:58.01 | ckknight | a ? b ? b : c : c |
| 02:58.04 | ckknight | that's what it actually is. |
| 02:58.34 | Thrae | Wait, that's in C as well as C++? |
| 02:58.53 | ckknight | I think so |
| 02:59.16 | Esamynn | my understanding of a ? b : c is that it is equivalent to the if then else statement it represents |
| 02:59.39 | Thrae | Hmmm, I never used it in either anyway, I found it too obsfucating to anyone else looking at my code, including me 10-years down the road. |
| 02:59.40 | Esamynn | my point is that the Lua idiom is equivalent only given (not b) == false |
| 03:00.14 | Esamynn | sorry for writing it that way, but not is the only logical operator that is guaranteed to return a boolean ;) |
| 03:01.05 | *** part/#wowi-lounge MikkZzz (n=opera@81-233-236-26-no19.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 03:02.22 | Thrae | I'm lost, I thought the original discussion was about precedence? |
| 03:03.42 | Esamynn | sorry, it's just when I brought up the idiom, I thought it was important to note the circumstances under which it doesn't work like you might otherwise expect |
| 03:03.55 | Esamynn | I wasn't intending to be confusing ;) |
| 03:04.51 | Esamynn | yes the idiom only works because of precedence, but that wasn't the point I was making |
| 03:04.53 | Esamynn | my appologies |
| 03:05.07 | Esamynn | anyways, I need to go out, I'll catch you all later |
| 03:05.13 | Thrae | Ah right, and I was saying while the idiom is well-noted, people should just use parentheses to make sure the behavior is the way they want it regardless of Lua's specific precendence to increase readability. |
| 03:05.39 | Esamynn | right, I didn't realise that right away :) |
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| 03:21.19 | Kirkburn | Yay, the world's best worst fight scene :D http://media.skoopy.com/misc/fight_scene/ |
| 03:21.40 | Kirov | that scene is awesome |
| 03:21.43 | Kirkburn | You almost want to join in with their screaming |
| 03:21.59 | Kirov | I love how he fights better with out one eye |
| 03:22.01 | Kirkburn | yaa, yaa, yaaaaaaa, yaaa! Yaaa! Yeaaah! Yaaaa! |
| 03:22.16 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 03:23.52 | Kirkburn | lol, so much for turning the heating on - all the radiators were off :/ |
| 03:32.45 | AnduinLothar | oh man that fight scene owns |
| 03:34.12 | AnduinLothar | "We'll keep an eye out for you!" |
| 03:34.27 | Kirov | "Yeah, see ya." |
| 03:34.30 | Kirov | best line eva |
| 03:36.35 | Rhez | I'm using the faux scroll frame for a list of guild members and their dkp ect. and I'm trying to integrate masterloot in a way that a popup window come sup asking how much dkp the item is worth and automaticay taking it from the dkp value of the person who recieves the loot, but I"mg etting errors because of not having the guild member selected in the scroll frame list, how would I access entries in the scroll frame without ha |
| 03:36.36 | Rhez | ving a selected item to start with seeing as its a linked list |
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| 03:54.18 | Cairenn | Kirov: ping? |
| 03:54.29 | Miravlix | No route to host |
| 03:56.42 | Cairenn | Kirov: wake up :p |
| 03:58.55 | Rhez | Anyone? |
| 03:59.42 | Miravlix | Faux is evil! |
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| 04:11.16 | zenzelezz | http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tfjf3.jpg |
| 04:16.19 | Kirov | doing firemaw, sorry |
| 04:16.34 | Kirov | well, atm, doing bwl in general |
| 04:16.42 | Kirov | Cairenn: pong |
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| 04:30.33 | Mr_Rabies2 | hrm |
| 04:31.00 | Mr_Rabies2 | what is the server side message regarding the wrath of neptulon all about? |
| 04:32.28 | Kirov | wa-huh? |
| 04:34.21 | Cairenn | rofl |
| 04:34.22 | Cairenn | http://basshunter.m0o.eu/dota/index_l33t.php |
| 04:36.10 | MentalPower | Cant... breathe... laughing... too... hard!! |
| 04:36.54 | Xuerian | =| |
| 04:38.36 | Kirkburn | It's real, too :/ |
| 04:39.08 | Kirkburn | I've seen unconfirmed reports that it reached No. 2 in Sweden |
| 04:39.09 | Xuerian | Girls gone wild ad > stupid durrta video. |
| 04:39.20 | Kirkburn | Defense of the Ancients, fool! |
| 04:39.28 | Kirkburn | =) |
| 04:39.36 | Xuerian | I know. -_- |
| 04:39.49 | Kirkburn | Well that's okay then, you're forgiven :P |
| 04:39.55 | Xuerian | durrta is just so much more fitting |
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| 04:45.26 | Kirkburn | Mr_Rabies2, it's related to the AQ quest line |
| 04:45.33 | Kirkburn | I think it's when Jaws is defeated |
| 04:45.41 | Kirkburn | ahem, sorry, "Maws" |
| 04:46.20 | Kirkburn | G'night all! |
| 04:46.26 | Cairenn | night Kirkburn |
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| 05:35.23 | Kirov | wb iriel |
| 05:35.30 | Iriel | thanks! |
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| 05:40.54 | Kirov | morning cide |
| 05:42.09 | Cide | morning Kirov |
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| 05:42.57 | Kirochi | Hi |
| 05:43.02 | Kirochi | I have a question |
| 05:43.39 | Kirochi | Can you see the same gold ads than I do on WoWwiki ? If yes, might we get in trouble for that ? |
| 05:44.36 | Cairenn | unfortunately, the two you need to talk to aren't here right now |
| 05:44.39 | Cairenn | kirkburn & mikk |
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| 05:51.31 | Kirochi | :( |
| 05:51.57 | Kirochi | OK bye ! |
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| 06:54.16 | Kirov | http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/addons-349-1-gram-a-dps-histogram.html - cool |
| 06:56.59 | Xuerian | Shiny. |
| 07:01.19 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight_ (i=ckknight@rrcs-74-62-251-191.west.biz.rr.com) |
| 07:02.49 | ckknight | hey all |
| 07:03.42 | Kirov | sleep time |
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| 07:13.14 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Mery (i=metelman@p54AEEE2A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:26.42 | zenzelezz | sooo... the WoW-EU website's realm status lists everything as up... but WoW disagrees |
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| 07:35.19 | Gello | lol |
| 07:35.35 | lacindas | lol |
| 07:35.45 | lacindas | what a warm welcome hehe |
| 07:35.52 | Gello | hehe yeah |
| 07:37.37 | lacindas | lol |
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| 07:53.14 | |FF|Im2good4u | Eufe: Hallo! |
| 08:05.37 | Eufe | elo |
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| 08:15.43 | koomi | mornings |
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| 08:29.44 | |FF|Im2good4u | : Hallo! |
| 08:34.16 | Tem | anyone around know the Firefox option to trim on minimize? |
| 08:34.22 | Tem | I can't remember the exact wording |
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| 10:05.25 | Corrodias | my current version of itemrack is a little sloppy at switching back to my previous set after an event is completed. |
| 10:05.35 | Corrodias | it switches to my skinning set fine, but only switches back about half the time. :( |
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| 10:12.13 | koomi | where do i init global vars? simply in the global scope or in the OnLoad function? |
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| 10:12.27 | koomi | + when do get SavedVariables get loaded? |
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| 12:12.03 | JoshBorke | morning |
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| 12:44.41 | Corrodias | can opposing faction members see your emotes if they cannot detect you through stealth? |
| 12:45.46 | nevcairiel | i think so |
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| 12:46.58 | Corrodias | none of these allies in SW have reacted to my emotes, yet |
| 12:47.38 | axxo | they don't care |
| 12:47.47 | Corrodias | quite possibly |
| 12:48.21 | nevcairiel | they dont see you, try to click on you for replying the emote, but cant find you, and ignore :) |
| 12:49.34 | axxo | i once ran around ogrimmar for an hour without getting attacked |
| 12:49.38 | axxo | silly non pvp servers :p |
| 12:49.57 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 12:50.30 | Corrodias | hah |
| 13:03.13 | *** join/#wowi-lounge MikkZzz (n=opera@81-233-236-26-no19.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 13:04.43 | JoshBorke | wb mikk |
| 13:06.32 | Mikk | thankee |
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| 13:16.10 | *** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Beladona] by ChanServ |
| 13:27.18 | Beladona | anyone know if there is a place that the wow game client can be downloaded? |
| 13:27.44 | KamQuat | yes |
| 13:28.08 | nevcairiel | the "trial" version is there for download, but iirc its the default client |
| 13:28.27 | KamQuat | it's the full version |
| 13:28.41 | KamQuat | you need an active paid account to play long term obviously |
| 13:28.47 | KamQuat | but the full game is downloadable |
| 13:28.56 | KamQuat | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/downloads/wowclient-download.html |
| 13:29.21 | Beladona | awesome, thank you |
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| 13:29.32 | KamQuat | main download link let me grab the whole 2.5gigs in 57 minutes on my connection |
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| 13:36.01 | TS|Skrom | morning |
| 13:36.04 | |FF|Im2good4u | Cairenn: Hi! |
| 13:44.40 | Eufe | question...in what section on wowwiki api page are the rendering functions? the ones which can limit the rendering screen |
| 13:47.11 | Kaso | i'm not really sure what you mean there Eufe |
| 13:47.31 | Beladona | believe he means resizing the viewport |
| 13:47.38 | Eufe | yeah |
| 13:47.56 | Kaso | ah, well then you should look at the widgit API, just the general frame methods |
| 13:48.03 | Kaso | The frame you want to fiddle with is WorldFrame |
| 13:48.26 | Thrae | WorldFrame:Hide(), problem solved! |
| 13:48.35 | Beladona | lol Thrae |
| 13:48.45 | Eufe | :P |
| 13:50.24 | Eufe | lol, in description of WorldFrame on wowwiki: There isn't much you can do to a WorldFrame so it's best to leave the WorldFrame object in WoW alone. |
| 13:50.29 | Eufe | but I wana!! |
| 13:51.59 | Kaso | assuming you just want to crop the Rendered area just use SetPoint on it |
| 13:52.32 | Kaso | WorldFrame:SetPoint("TOPLEFT",1,-100) WorldFrame:SetPoint("BOTTOMRIGHT",1,100) is what i have in my little addon to do that |
| 13:53.14 | Eufe | tnx, thought about doing something like that, but wanted to confirm before I fuck up :P |
| 13:54.15 | Kaso | CT_Viewport is pretty good to look at to see how they do it |
| 13:54.36 | Kaso | i would use it myself, but it goes crazy when you use <0.64 UI scale |
| 13:55.10 | Eufe | it requires CT_mod...right? |
| 13:55.24 | Eufe | as in you cant only install CT_viewport |
| 13:55.40 | Kaso | iirc viewport is stand alone |
| 13:56.36 | Kaso | at least the version i have on my pc is only OptionalDepdent on CT_MasterMod |
| 13:57.03 | JoshBorke | ls |
| 13:57.05 | JoshBorke | BLAH! |
| 13:58.44 | Eufe | Kaso: true..no deps |
| 13:58.53 | Eufe | wth is UISpecialFrames? |
| 14:01.23 | Eufe | nvm...found out |
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| 15:18.44 | Corrodias | hmm. one of my addons has removed my experience bar. |
| 15:21.17 | axxo | its a good addon |
| 15:22.44 | Corrodias | not sure how to determine which one is responsible for it, though. i want it back. |
| 15:29.00 | Corrodias | i hate doing that old process of elimination. >_< oh, well. at least it gives me something to do, tomorrow. |
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| 15:37.57 | Miravlix | Any status on the addon terminate wow without even a crash dialog bug |
| 15:38.09 | Miravlix | It just instantly disapper and leave you on the desktop |
| 15:38.22 | Plorkyeran | I've had that happen a lot recently |
| 15:39.05 | Plorkyeran | Is it actually addon related? |
| 15:39.45 | Miravlix | I think so |
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| 16:07.45 | TS|Skrom | [10:36] CD|Onilink: Do you think it would be against the TOS to code an addon that reaches through someone's monitor and stabs them in the face? |
| 16:07.49 | TS|Skrom | rofl |
| 16:08.08 | JoshBorke | you'd be everyone's hero if you wrote that |
| 16:08.11 | TS|Skrom | I told him to check his EULA |
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| 16:32.53 | leech2k | Quick question. If the only information I have about a mob is the name can I determine if it is a player or npc? (Is not a target or mouseover) |
| 16:33.45 | Kaso | if you can target it. |
| 16:34.00 | JoshBorke | leech2k: i don't think so. only if it is a unit |
| 16:34.19 | leech2k | hmm.. that is the same thing I came up with. |
| 16:35.10 | leech2k | Trying to find out if the mob that a player just slayed was a player or npc. But there are a lot of scenarios where it is not targeted. |
| 16:36.33 | leech2k | Thx for help though guys. |
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| 16:42.45 | JoshBorke | leech2k: at the time of the event the unit might be targetted |
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| 17:07.40 | Qzot | Iriel: ping |
| 17:08.01 | Iriel | Qzot: ack |
| 17:08.01 | JoshBorke | wb Cairenn |
| 17:08.12 | koomi | dumm.di.dumm |
| 17:08.21 | koomi | my logging mod is up and kind of running ^^^ |
| 17:08.28 | Qzot | Afayk, WoW's lua supports weak tables? |
| 17:08.37 | Kirov | weak tables? |
| 17:08.49 | Xuerian | It does, iirc :P |
| 17:08.54 | Iriel | Yes |
| 17:09.01 | Iriel | weak keys, values, or both |
| 17:09.42 | Qzot | Conceptually, I don't see a lot of difference between weak keys, weak values, or weak both. At least as far as the table itself is concern. What am I missing? |
| 17:10.22 | Qzot | More explicity, I don't see a case where if you want a weak table, you wouldnt' set both keys and values to weak. |
| 17:10.22 | koomi | just wondering: what are weak tables? |
| 17:10.46 | Qzot | Tables where the GC is willing to remove entries if it runs out of space. |
| 17:10.48 | Iriel | There are many cases where you wouldn't set both to weak |
| 17:10.56 | Qzot | Caches that can play nice with the memory system. |
| 17:11.10 | Qzot | Iriel: Okay. I'm missing something. Learn me. :D |
| 17:11.12 | Iriel | It's not quite 'when it runs out of space' |
| 17:11.19 | krka | and for storing attribute values of objects |
| 17:11.23 | krka | without locking on to them |
| 17:11.25 | Iriel | It's more tables that dont count as a 'reference' when removing things |
| 17:11.34 | Iriel | (From a GC perspective) |
| 17:11.52 | Iriel | Krka's attribute example is a good one for a situation where you'd use weak keys but not values |
| 17:12.09 | Iriel | suppose you've created a generic metadata system, where you store metadata on other objects |
| 17:12.19 | krka | didn't come up for it myself, i read it in the pil :( |
| 17:12.20 | Qzot | Please explain why using weak values in that example would be harmful? |
| 17:12.21 | Iriel | But you dont have control over the lifetime of those other objects |
| 17:12.39 | Iriel | If you use weak VALUES then your metadata can be collected whenever a GC run happens unless someone happens to have it referenced |
| 17:12.47 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ven (n=ven@dynadsl-080-228-72-052.ewetel.net) |
| 17:12.51 | krka | Qzot: because then you'd lose your attribute for an object, even if the object is still around |
| 17:13.00 | Iriel | If you use weak KEYS then metadata for no-longer-referenced objects can be removed, but metadata for referenced objects is preserved |
| 17:13.06 | krka | if nothing else holds on to the value, that is |
| 17:13.17 | Qzot | Iriel: Great. Gotcha now. |
| 17:13.27 | krka | hopefully i said the same thing as Iriel |
| 17:13.31 | krka | if not: i meant what he said |
| 17:13.33 | Iriel | You did |
| 17:14.10 | *** join/#wowi-lounge tyroney|work (n=tyroney@66.239.241.162.ptr.us.xo.net) |
| 17:14.35 | Qzot | Okay. An example where you might want weak values, but not keys? |
| 17:14.44 | krka | hm |
| 17:15.30 | krka | maybe something where you have integer keys and objects as values |
| 17:15.41 | krka | and want to know when the object have been gc'd |
| 17:16.11 | krka | not sure what you need to know examples for all combinations |
| 17:16.16 | Qzot | I doubt strong keys would behave differently there. |
| 17:16.31 | Qzot | Trying to get my head around them. |
| 17:17.48 | krka | have you read the PIL? |
| 17:17.56 | krka | pretty sure it discusses it |
| 17:18.00 | Qzot | I think the other systems that supported weak references only supported weak keys (they didn't use weak key/weak value terminology). |
| 17:18.29 | Qzot | Make sense. No, I haven't read much of the PIL. Usually just go to the reference manual, but your suggestion is good. |
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| 17:20.35 | Iriel | I've used weak values for 'free list' implementations |
| 17:20.43 | Iriel | but I could just have easily used weak keys |
| 17:23.34 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@208.104.133.240) |
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| 17:36.22 | krka | kernighan and richie? |
| 17:36.29 | Qzot | Indeed. |
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| 17:38.59 | [floyd] | K&R were on drugs. And that's about all the good I can say about them :D |
| 17:42.44 | Kirov | hmm |
| 17:43.17 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (i=the_real@85.24.43.252) |
| 17:43.32 | Kirov | gello's post makes me wonder if it'd be possible to make a mod to manage name plates in a more sane manner |
| 17:44.02 | zenzelezz | sane how? |
| 17:44.08 | Maldivia | hehe, looking to that at the moment aswell :) |
| 17:44.38 | Maldivia | Kirov, you happen to know if there's cvar, that determines the distance of when you see the namesplates and when you dont? |
| 17:45.12 | [floyd] | Probably the same as the distance at which you can see enemies. |
| 17:45.40 | Maldivia | the nameplates are only visible like 30 yards or so |
| 17:46.43 | Maldivia | make that 20 |
| 17:46.53 | [floyd] | Do you have all details turned on? |
| 17:46.59 | Qzot | Kirov: Link to Gello's post? |
| 17:49.07 | Kirov | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=31213336&sid=1 |
| 17:50.23 | Kirov | Maldivia - wish there was, but I don't think so. |
| 17:51.00 | Maldivia | ok, think the range is 20yards |
| 17:51.43 | Maldivia | yeah, dropped a totem with 20yd range on top an npc standing still... ran out, and when I saw the nameplate of the npc, I got my totems buff aswell |
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| 18:00.06 | Osagasu | Interesting. |
| 18:00.44 | Maldivia | if the nameplate distance could be raised, they could be used to get information about all the mobs near you |
| 18:00.51 | Osagasu | I thought they weren't hooked into the UI. |
| 18:01.03 | Maldivia | you would have the health from the statusbars |
| 18:01.15 | Maldivia | although, you wont have any unit-references to them |
| 18:01.19 | Maldivia | Osagasu: so did I |
| 18:03.14 | Kaso | Hmm, thats very interesting |
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| 18:12.31 | Kirov | The frames probably don't have names |
| 18:12.38 | Kaso | they dont |
| 18:12.49 | Kirov | It's the same thing as the minimap arrows |
| 18:13.03 | Kirov | they exist, but originally not in a way that was queryable by the ui |
| 18:13.07 | Kaso | he's basically enumerating all statusbars that are children of worldframe, and assuming they're nameplates |
| 18:13.17 | Kirov | now that we have GetChildren() we're able to see all sorts of nify stuff |
| 18:13.59 | Maldivia | if only we could change the range of the nameplates, should be able to get the position of everyone on the screen |
| 18:14.15 | Kirov | Not really |
| 18:14.35 | Kirov | the way nameplates are positioned, in a crowd they wouldn't be accurate at all. |
| 18:14.46 | Qzot | Hmm. Darn close if you know camera position and assume a flat world. |
| 18:15.00 | Qzot | And assume everyone is the same height. |
| 18:15.08 | Maldivia | Kirov: well, you could get the "floating heal text" everyone is always asking about |
| 18:15.10 | Kirov | heh |
| 18:15.19 | Kaso | What i'm wondering is if we can add some sort of smoothing to the movment of the Nameplates. |
| 18:15.34 | Maldivia | uhh... |
| 18:15.39 | Kirov | hmm |
| 18:16.03 | Maldivia | do the nameplates must have an OnClick we can call, to target that unit? |
| 18:16.03 | Kirov | dampened movement wouldn't be too hard, but dangerous |
| 18:16.21 | Kaso | dangerous how? |
| 18:16.50 | Kirov | Kaso - It's not guarenteed that one nameplate frame will be used for the same target from one frame to another. |
| 18:17.31 | Maldivia | and in places, with multiple mobs with the same name ,you can't see if they're unique... |
| 18:17.34 | Kaso | i see |
| 18:17.42 | Kirov | Maldivia - that's not a problem. |
| 18:17.55 | Kirov | keep references of each name plate you see. |
| 18:18.24 | Kirov | or, actually, just enumerate over GetChildren each time, the return will be in the same order every time. |
| 18:19.07 | Maldivia | but as you said, you can't be sure that nameplateX is the same unit from frame to frame |
| 18:19.20 | Kirov | GetCenter(), move back to last seen Center, move %10 of the way there, cache GetCenter() returns |
| 18:19.57 | Kirov | It's the same old issue of same name, possibly same health, level, etc. |
| 18:21.22 | Kirov | Doing too much could obviously lead to blizzard protecting GetChildren() |
| 18:21.25 | Kirov | which would suck |
| 18:21.34 | Maldivia | Ok, I can: WFC = { WorldFrame:GetChildren() } WFC[7]:Click() selects that person |
| 18:25.18 | Maldivia | hmm, the target functions requires a key-press, right? |
| 18:25.26 | Kirkburn | Anyone I'm missing? http://www.wowwiki.com/Blizzard_forum_posters |
| 18:25.56 | Kaso | Maldivia you mean like the tab target |
| 18:26.15 | Maldivia | Kaso: yeah, and TargetUnit etc |
| 18:26.40 | Elkano | Kirkburn, the German ones ;) |
| 18:26.43 | Kaso | you can targetunit without, but not TargetNearestEnemy |
| 18:26.51 | Kaso | and i see what you're getting at :> |
| 18:27.00 | Kirkburn | If I knew who they were, Elkano ... :P |
| 18:27.17 | Maldivia | I can call Click in an OnUpdate, and it targets the unit |
| 18:27.49 | Iriel | The TargetNearest functions do |
| 18:27.52 | Kirov | I'd expect that whatever function is being used there isn't one they ever expected people would use, so it's not protected |
| 18:27.52 | Iriel | TargetUnit does not |
| 18:27.59 | Kaso | so you can itterate though a select list of nearby targets now |
| 18:28.14 | Kaso | whats the cap of number of Nameplates? |
| 18:28.14 | Maldivia | Kirkburn: what about the technical staff? |
| 18:28.18 | Kirov | A list of nearby units that are on your screen. |
| 18:28.34 | Maldivia | Kaso, well - the range is limited to what seems 20yds |
| 18:28.51 | Kirkburn | Tech staff? |
| 18:28.52 | Kaso | tab target cant be much more than that anyway? |
| 18:28.57 | Kirkburn | Links help! :) |
| 18:29.15 | Maldivia | Kirkburn: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/search.html?stationId=1&forumId=11110&searchText=&characterName=&blizzardPoster=true&recentPosts=0&x=480&y=-17 |
| 18:29.25 | Cairenn | krka: ping? |
| 18:29.30 | Arrowmaster | can you check for the raidicons on the nameplates and only show ones with certain raidicons? |
| 18:29.46 | Kirkburn | Never come across them, thanks Maldivia |
| 18:30.15 | Maldivia | Kirkburn: davidhc, nickjs, justinkk - might be more |
| 18:30.31 | Kaso | Arrowmaster yah you could target em and do GetRaidTargetIndex |
| 18:30.41 | Maldivia | Kirkburn: evanm, datth |
| 18:31.06 | Kirkburn | All tech support guys? |
| 18:31.08 | Arrowmaster | the raidicon is displayed as part of the nameplate, any other way than targetting them? |
| 18:31.32 | Kaso | i dont know could you work out what icon it was from the Texture, cos the icons all use the same big texture and have cooords |
| 18:31.35 | Elkano | Kirkburn, some for deDE: http://forums.wow-europe.com/search.html?stationId=3&forumId=11112&searchText=&characterName=&blizzardPoster=true&recentPosts=0&x=430&y=-31 |
| 18:31.42 | Kaso | there's a GetTextureCoords function isnt there? |
| 18:31.47 | Arrowmaster | maybe just check if any raid icon was set, not care about which one |
| 18:31.54 | Maldivia | are the raid icons textures on worldframe, or drawn by the 3d engine ? |
| 18:32.10 | Kaso | when you have nameplates they're attatched to the plates |
| 18:32.12 | Kirov | 3d engine for sure |
| 18:32.27 | Kirov | er |
| 18:32.40 | Kirov | <- doesn't use name plates often |
| 18:32.43 | Kirov | dps class |
| 18:32.45 | Kaso | ha |
| 18:33.07 | zenzelezz | lol |
| 18:33.25 | zenzelezz | Noth the Plaguebringer down for the first time, and in the excitement the healers stopped healing me (offtank on adds) |
| 18:33.34 | Kaso | you'd have to check if they are child of the frame or not really |
| 18:33.45 | Plorkyeran | Kirkburn: Block? |
| 18:34.25 | Kirkburn | How could I miss Block!? |
| 18:35.02 | Kaso | haha |
| 18:35.06 | Kaso | he's the best |
| 18:35.22 | Kirkburn | What does Block do exactly? |
| 18:35.57 | Plorkyeran | Isn't he a dev? |
| 18:36.16 | cogwheel | He announced the upcoming South Park episode... |
| 18:36.18 | cogwheel | XD |
| 18:36.46 | Kirkburn | I've put him under other employees |
| 18:38.46 | |FF|Im2good4u | WTF.. |
| 18:39.23 | |FF|Im2good4u | some guy send a line in party chat and replaied to ti whit yes u are ... the best and i didnt type it... |
| 18:40.02 | Kirkburn | Why's the wiki down ... again :/ |
| 18:40.12 | axxo | |FF|Im2good4u: its a stupid trick |
| 18:40.26 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 18:40.33 | axxo | i'm gay [guild] [bla] yes you are |
| 18:40.41 | axxo | wow will wrap on the spaces |
| 18:40.47 | axxo | and it'll look real |
| 18:40.50 | Kirkburn | Great fun if you're announcing the arrival of the guy with the AQ sceptre in Silithus .... not that I ever did that :P |
| 18:41.17 | cogwheel | will also get you a severe warning from a GM if you're reported :P |
| 18:42.08 | Kirkburn | I didn't push it when I did it =) |
| 18:42.21 | axxo | like /1 HI Warning: server going down for emergency maintance in 5min |
| 18:42.23 | Kirkburn | He arrived about 30 mins later anyway, and I still was the one who announced it ;) |
| 18:42.54 | |FF|Im2good4u | so that will anouce it under some1 else his name oO |
| 18:43.41 | axxo | Kirkburn: it'd be more impressive if you had the sceptre :p |
| 18:43.52 | Kirkburn | heh |
| 18:44.28 | |FF|Im2good4u | so axxo so how do i say somthing under some1 his name ? |
| 18:45.03 | axxo | l2iq |
| 18:45.15 | Kirkburn | Type it as it would appear in the log |
| 18:45.51 | Kirkburn | e.g. if you're typing in guild ..... say your bit then lots of spaces, and: [Guild] [Guy]: Blah blah blah |
| 18:45.57 | cogwheel | SomeMessage blah blah [Party] [Cogwheel]: hehe |
| 18:45.58 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Werik (i=werik@catv5403B174.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 18:46.10 | Cairenn | and get in trouble if you get caught |
| 18:46.11 | |FF|Im2good4u | ah lol :P |
| 18:46.17 | Kirkburn | Doesn't work for people with chat addons though, since they change how it appears, and it'll be obvious |
| 18:46.21 | cogwheel | Cairenn: i mentioned that ;) |
| 18:46.25 | Kirkburn | As Cairenn says, don't try it in main channels! |
| 18:46.33 | |FF|Im2good4u | i got chat addons but none of my dchances it :P |
| 18:46.34 | Cairenn | cogwheel: I know, just re-confirming it |
| 18:46.53 | [Cu]Werik | Evening. |
| 18:47.01 | Kirkburn | Morning :) |
| 18:47.10 | Cairenn | hey [Cu]Werik, how goes it? |
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| 18:47.25 | [Cu]Werik | Ahh, not too good :) |
| 18:47.37 | Cairenn | :( |
| 18:47.40 | Cairenn | sorry to hear that |
| 18:47.52 | Cairenn | anything we can do? even if only commiserate? |
| 18:47.58 | Kirkburn | Soo, german posters - Gnorog, Wrocas, Trigmas, Vaneck? |
| 18:48.18 | [Cu]Werik | Yeah, but me a new hamster |
| 18:48.20 | [Cu]Werik | buy* |
| 18:48.23 | Cairenn | heh |
| 18:48.35 | Elkano | maybe there are some more. and iirc at least Gnorog and Vaneck are CMs |
| 18:48.39 | |FF|Im2good4u | oke i thoghu i had some sort of addon the had this little h@x init :p |
| 18:48.54 | Cairenn | tell you the same thing I tell Blizz ... upgrade to Guinea pigs ;) |
| 18:49.14 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight (n=ckknight@198.199.136.120) |
| 18:49.16 | [Cu]Werik | Nah, hamsters are trendy |
| 18:49.19 | Cairenn | lol |
| 18:49.49 | [Cu]Werik | Girls love them, so its a must |
| 18:49.56 | Cairenn | hehehehe |
| 18:50.02 | Kirov | http://cyberartist.shackspace.com/etc/wowserverupgrade.jpg |
| 18:50.05 | Kirkburn | Breed like wildfire, though :P |
| 18:50.19 | [Cu]Werik | haha |
| 18:50.43 | Kirkburn | Did you know the Spanish version of EU WoW is now out? |
| 18:50.55 | Kirkburn | (at anyone, not just you, obviously :P) |
| 18:51.13 | Kirov | if, or you're saying it is |
| 18:51.33 | Kirkburn | It is |
| 18:51.40 | Kirov | hmm |
| 18:52.01 | Kirov | I guess it's time to add another skew to my localization |
| 18:52.32 | cogwheel | They should release it in the US too... XD |
| 18:52.41 | Kirkburn | Oooh, and they've annouced the BC COllector's Edition! |
| 18:52.42 | Kirkburn | http://www.wow-europe.com/en/burningcrusade/townhall/collectors.html |
| 18:52.56 | cogwheel | Kirkburn: it's on the front page of worldofwarcraft.com ;) |
| 18:53.24 | Kirkburn | These things normally are :P |
| 18:53.43 | Elkano | btw: Kirkburn, could it be that the panda is the default GM avatar? |
| 18:54.24 | Kirkburn | What makes you say that? |
| 18:54.44 | Elkano | http://forums.wow-europe.com/board.html?forumId=18536 |
| 18:54.50 | Elkano | look at the stickys |
| 18:55.04 | Elkano | all three blue have the same avatar |
| 18:55.08 | Kirkburn | That's a point, yes |
| 18:55.36 | Kirkburn | Can anyone else reach the wiki? |
| 18:56.05 | Elkano | I can't |
| 18:56.20 | Kirkburn | That Collector's Edition looks amazing, gonna have to get it |
| 18:57.23 | Kirkburn | Anyone know what Berghe does? Moderator? |
| 18:58.14 | Elkano | some more German: http://forums.wow-europe.com/search.html?stationId=3&forumId=11113&searchText=&characterName=&blizzardPoster=true&recentPosts=0&x=447&y=-20 |
| 18:58.23 | tyroney|work | Maybe this time I'll have the cash for a collector's ed. |
| 18:59.05 | Elkano | I would have had it last time, too... I just didn't find the time until it was to late :/ |
| 18:59.35 | Kirov | http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wow-europe.com%2Fes%2Fcontests%2Fcostume%2F&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools |
| 18:59.37 | Elkano | anyways I've got to fid out how to get the english version... BC will finaly make me switch over |
| 19:01.17 | Kirkburn | English version? |
| 19:01.29 | [floyd] | You can get the language packs anyway. |
| 19:01.32 | Kirkburn | You can download language packs for the EU version |
| 19:01.37 | [floyd] | # |
| 19:01.41 | [floyd] | Uh :D |
| 19:01.44 | tyroney|work | So is there some boss key or worksafe auction browser out in the wild? |
| 19:01.45 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight_ (n=ckknight@198.199.136.120) |
| 19:01.45 | [floyd] | What Kirkburn said ;) |
| 19:01.56 | Elkano | well, I want a clean install, but in this case I ment the englich CE |
| 19:01.57 | Kirkburn | You were first :P |
| 19:02.06 | Kirkburn | Elkano, ah, I see |
| 19:02.23 | [floyd] | Any particular reason, Elkano? |
| 19:02.36 | Elkano | since iirc they are also going to rename the major citys with BC :/ |
| 19:02.53 | Osagasu | say what? |
| 19:03.09 | Elkano | at least I heared rumors |
| 19:03.47 | *** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower (i=chatzill@host-70-45-82-92.onelinkpr.net) |
| 19:04.30 | Elkano | -> http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=45555192&sid=3 |
| 19:07.39 | *** join/#wowi-lounge KaoS` (n=[KaoS]`@about/apple/macbookpro/KaoS) |
| 19:09.47 | cogwheel | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2139555376132383479 |
| 19:10.08 | KaoS` | what are some good wow pod/video casts? |
| 19:16.12 | *** join/#wowi-lounge malreth (n=triti@cpe-72-179-20-11.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 19:16.19 | malreth | RAWR!@#! |
| 19:16.26 | Maldivia | Elkano: hmm, that's can be a hell, for people doing localizations of addons :) |
| 19:17.16 | malreth | my... lab... lives aGAIN!! |
| 19:19.20 | Cairenn | malreth: grats |
| 19:21.26 | zenzelezz | for another hour or so Mal :) |
| 19:21.34 | malreth | but there was one casualty |
| 19:21.45 | zenzelezz | the kid who caused the problem? |
| 19:22.12 | malreth | i built a new ASR image... it took 5 hours, but with it i could completely fix a machine in 15 minutes flat |
| 19:22.39 | malreth | sadly, the computer I made the image from died after the image creation completed |
| 19:22.54 | malreth | i mean... like a minute after it was done... X_X |
| 19:22.55 | zenzelezz | like Yoda |
| 19:23.02 | malreth | YES! Just like Yoda! |
| 19:23.48 | malreth | It's like this little Mac was all, "My hard drive... S.M.A.R.T. reports that it's failing but I'll.. hold.. out..... JUST FOR YOU!!! *bleh*" |
| 19:23.57 | JoshBorke | lol |
| 19:24.57 | malreth | these machines are in the last months of their warranties |
| 19:25.22 | malreth | it's time for brand new shiny intel iMacs |
| 19:26.10 | malreth | which means I get to spend some more monies! |
| 19:26.17 | malreth | and that makes malreth happy |
| 19:26.22 | JoshBorke | lol |
| 19:26.42 | malreth | we submitted the project proposal to refit this building. |
| 19:26.47 | malreth | three floors of computer labs |
| 19:27.09 | malreth | plus replacements for our check-out laptops |
| 19:27.24 | malreth | 600 grand |
| 19:27.46 | malreth | i mean... you just HAVE to smile when you write down a number like that |
| 19:28.26 | malreth | but then you frowny frown when they cut the budget in half anyway |
| 19:32.16 | Cairenn | krka: ping? |
| 19:37.38 | Elkano | Kirkburn, seems like wowwiki is back to life |
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| 19:49.45 | JoshBorke | you do mean XLM right? or is it XMasterLoot? |
| 19:49.52 | JoshBorke | *sigh* MT |
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| 19:57.09 | Kirkburn | Elkano, cool, I'll get back to finishing those updates later |
| 19:58.36 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ckknight (n=ckknight@198.199.136.120) |
| 20:00.58 | zenzelezz | so close to getting Dreadnaught Sabatons :-x |
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| 20:12.50 | *** join/#wowi-lounge jimzy (n=J@12.5.103.2) |
| 20:13.13 | jimzy | can wow use lua to connect to an external website to get data? |
| 20:13.18 | JoshBorke | no |
| 20:13.19 | cogwheel | no |
| 20:13.22 | jimzy | booo |
| 20:13.29 | jimzy | can i read from an external file? |
| 20:13.32 | JoshBorke | no |
| 20:13.36 | jimzy | man |
| 20:14.05 | jimzy | it just reads a file on load i guess? |
| 20:14.16 | JoshBorke | you can read the SavedVariables file on load and reloads |
| 20:14.16 | cogwheel | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11381215&sid=1#13 |
| 20:14.28 | jimzy | thanks |
| 20:18.57 | jimzy | can you reload an interface on demand? |
| 20:19.02 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Xuerian (n=Xuerian@12-196-151-240.psknet.net) |
| 20:19.12 | JoshBorke | yes. /script ReloadUI() |
| 20:19.17 | jimzy | cool thanks |
| 20:19.31 | JoshBorke | jimzy: that takes anywhere from 15-60 seconds |
| 20:19.34 | jimzy | does it reload all the interfaces or just the one you specify? |
| 20:19.41 | nevcairiel | that reloads all |
| 20:19.48 | jimzy | bah |
| 20:19.58 | jimzy | thanks |
| 20:20.05 | cogwheel | jimzy: it's intentional that it's hard to communicate with the outside world |
| 20:20.26 | jimzy | seems like it |
| 20:21.02 | Qzot | Moreover, reloading single modules could have unintended consequences, due to the fact that all the modules share a single address space. |
| 20:21.28 | jimzy | ah |
| 20:22.48 | Qzot | I.e. if module Foo registers a callback with Bar, and then you reload Foo, Bar might call both the old and new registered methods. Stuff like that. You can defend against it, but it a whole new set of potential bugs to have to fight. |
| 20:23.15 | cogwheel | but that's not really the point ;) |
| 20:24.10 | Qzot | You think not? |
| 20:24.22 | cogwheel | his goal isn't to disable a single addon... |
| 20:24.37 | Qzot | I rather like the guarantee that an addon is guaranteed to be loaded at most once into a running version of lua. |
| 20:24.38 | cogwheel | it's to get/put information from/to the outside world |
| 20:25.02 | cogwheel | the idea of reloading a single addon was only mentioned as a way to accomplish that |
| 20:25.12 | Qzot | Ah. Wasn't paying attention that far back. I was giving a reason for being unable to reload a single addon. Yes, they are very much defending against comm with outside. |
| 20:25.56 | Qzot | Think he understands that now? |
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| 20:57.37 | TS|Skrom | What's a good hp amount for a hunte who wants to start raiding? |
| 20:57.58 | JoshBorke | 5 |
| 20:58.08 | TS|Skrom | great! I'm in like flynn |
| 21:06.14 | Mr_Rabies2 | start raiding? eh 3-4000 is more than enough, you'll almost never get hit if you're raiding |
| 21:06.30 | Mr_Rabies2 | well, if everyone's doing everything right |
| 21:06.53 | Kirov | 6k health, still die |
| 21:06.57 | Kirov | but I'm main puller |
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| 21:08.50 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kirochi|At (n=kiroforc@m201.net81-64-58.noos.fr) |
| 21:09.00 | Kirochi|At | Hello |
| 21:09.05 | JoshBorke | hola |
| 21:09.17 | Mr_Rabies2 | i manage 4000 raid buffed in my melee gear and do fine |
| 21:09.22 | Satanic`melody | ello |
| 21:09.29 | Mr_Rabies2 | cept lava packs :[ |
| 21:09.40 | Devlark | x.x |
| 21:09.55 | zenzelezz | pet pull plx |
| 21:10.02 | nevcairiel | you call MC raiding ? :D |
| 21:10.58 | Mr_Rabies2 | the bwl trash isnt as evil to me as lava packs |
| 21:10.58 | JoshBorke | what really sucks is when you are out of combat for a lava pack pull and still get wtf pwned |
| 21:10.58 | Mr_Rabies2 | i always always get chain conflaged or whatever in lava pakcs |
| 21:10.58 | Qzot | Hmm. Our puller dies a few times each night, but usually feigns before taking a 2nd hit. |
| 21:11.00 | *** part/#wowi-lounge Devlark (n=pornbot@c-66-177-246-173.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 21:11.00 | zenzelezz | huh? Conflag in lava packs? o_O |
| 21:11.06 | Mr_Rabies2 | their stun+dot |
| 21:11.12 | Mr_Rabies2 | whatever its called |
| 21:11.39 | JoshBorke | fire blossom? |
| 21:11.40 | nevcairiel | barrage |
| 21:11.44 | JoshBorke | barrage! |
| 21:11.46 | Mr_Rabies2 | yeah that |
| 21:11.49 | zenzelezz | ah, right |
| 21:12.00 | Mr_Rabies2 | same as drakk's conflag pretty much |
| 21:12.13 | zenzelezz | conflag would be more fun though, seeing people walk around with their arms in the air \o/ |
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| 21:40.40 | Miravlix | 19120Is this a roll call? |
| 21:40.47 | Miravlix | I don't roll only rock |
| 21:42.29 | Cairenn | just seeing if anyone is still alive in here or not |
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| 22:06.48 | MentalPower | Question: Where in the ToS/EULA does it say that you cannot play unattended (ie bots)? |
| 22:06.57 | MentalPower | been scouring and can't find it |
| 22:07.33 | nevcairiel | i would guess the no 3rd party programms thing would get that. |
| 22:07.45 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kaelten (n=Kaelten@68.63.37.188) |
| 22:07.46 | *** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ |
| 22:08.52 | Miravlix | You can't bot in pure lua afaik |
| 22:09.33 | Plorkyeran | Even with a hardware keypress generator you're not allowed to do things unattended, though |
| 22:11.50 | MentalPower | I know the limitations, I'm just trying to tell someone that an anti-AFK program would be against the ToS/EULA |
| 22:11.58 | MentalPower | just can't find the right clause |
| 22:12.31 | Plorkyeran | well, a program would be covered by the no third-party program part |
| 22:14.30 | Plorkyeran | "You agree that you will not ... create or use cheats, "mods", and/or hacks, or any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;" |
| 22:15.03 | Cairenn | and "cheats" is a pretty broad ranging generic term |
| 22:15.11 | Cairenn | so is "hacks" |
| 22:15.25 | Kirochi | Anyway you can have your account banned anytime without any reason |
| 22:15.36 | Iriel | Isn't Anti-AFK *explicitly* prohibited? |
| 22:15.45 | Plorkyeran | I think so, but not in the ToS |
| 22:16.07 | Plorkyeran | At least, not in the version they have on the site |
| 22:16.39 | Mikk | "any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience" |
| 22:16.41 | Mikk | whoops |
| 22:16.46 | Mikk | that'll be 100% of all addons then :-P |
| 22:16.49 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Cairenn (n=Cairenn@CPE001217452e29-CM014500004571.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 22:16.49 | *** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 22:17.12 | Qzot | Which effectively reduces it to, "We ban what we want." |
| 22:17.15 | Plorkyeran | addons are specifically allowed elsewhere, though |
| 22:18.11 | Qzot | My most recent graphics card modifies my World of Warcraft experience. |
| 22:18.18 | Qzot | Well, at least the driver does. |
| 22:18.22 | Qzot | Intentionally. |
| 22:19.01 | MentalPower | Iriel: thats what I'm looking for, but I can't find it |
| 22:19.03 | Iriel | but was it designed to modify World of Warcraft? Or is it indiscriminate? |
| 22:19.22 | Qzot | Eh. True enough. |
| 22:20.05 | Plorkyeran | If the driver was specifically targetting WoW I think it'd violate that |
| 22:20.10 | Plorkyeran | Unless a driver isn't a program |
| 22:20.53 | [floyd] | Remember the ATi drivers a while back that would render all objects semi-transparent? |
| 22:21.26 | zenzelezz | can't say I do, but I remember Asus having something like that |
| 22:21.26 | Qzot | Sound indiscriminate to me. :P |
| 22:21.34 | Qzot | Help you cheats in *several* games. |
| 22:21.40 | Qzot | s/cheats/cheat |
| 22:22.35 | [floyd] | Yep. And it didn't specifically target WoW :) |
| 22:22.51 | [floyd] | In fact, they were released way before WoW. |
| 22:27.40 | Kirochi | The fact that prepaid cards ain't free modify A LOT my WoW experience |
| 22:30.44 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Devlark (n=pornbot@c-66-177-246-173.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 22:30.49 | Devlark | cogwheel |
| 22:30.52 | Devlark | i want you babbys |
| 22:30.54 | Devlark | and with that |
| 22:30.56 | *** part/#wowi-lounge Devlark (n=pornbot@c-66-177-246-173.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 22:32.22 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:39.03 | Qzot | Wait! |
| 22:39.07 | Qzot | WAIT!! |
| 22:39.20 | Qzot | We have to know ... do you want to bear them ... or eat them? |
| 22:39.58 | Iriel | Maybe babbys is Devlark's pet name for cogwheel? |
| 22:40.40 | Qzot | Or it's a diminuitive of "Babbage's Analytical Engine", and he's wanting cogwheel's computers. |
| 22:41.05 | zenzelezz | perhaps he just wants his boobies |
| 22:41.25 | Kirochi | purl, dict babbys |
| 22:41.39 | Kirochi | purl, dict boobies |
| 22:42.25 | Iriel | that's sure not the definition I usually use for it |
| 22:43.00 | Qzot | That's the *real* definition, Iriel. (Sheesh. What a boob.) |
| 22:43.07 | Cairenn | lol |
| 22:43.19 | Kirochi | *is listening to Britney Spears + Newgrounds, Make my boobies one more size* |
| 23:04.02 | *** join/#wowi-lounge JoshBork1 (n=Josh@r35h14.res.gatech.edu) |
| 23:05.03 | JoshBork1 | hola again |
| 23:09.20 | Cairenn | evening JoshBork |
| 23:10.01 | JoshBork1 | hehe, i'm too lazy to connect to my irssi session... |
| 23:11.02 | Cairenn | you're allowed to be |
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| 23:36.47 | Kirkburn | http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Bc-collectors.jpg is very LotR, isn't it :P |
| 23:37.30 | Xuerian | Geez, just assimilating everything |
| 23:37.31 | Cairenn | yeah, it is kinda, isn't it? |
| 23:38.30 | zenzelezz | I don't think so |
| 23:38.49 | Iriel | It's just like the previous couple of blizzard Collectors' Ed's. |
| 23:38.49 | zenzelezz | doesn't reminds me of any of the book covers I've seen for it, and I refuse to acknowledge the movies |
| 23:38.56 | zenzelezz | -s |
| 23:39.14 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Arrowmaster` (i=Arrow@cpe-24-209-111-105.woh.res.rr.com) |
| 23:51.19 | Kirkburn | zenzelezz, it's similar to the boxes for the LotR films DVDs |
| 23:51.19 | zenzelezz | like I said, I don't acknowledge those :-p |
| 23:51.19 | Kirkburn | Right, now am I missing anyone? :) http://www.wowwiki.com/Blizzard_forum_posters |
| 23:51.19 | Kirkburn | zenzelezz, bah humbug and all that :P |
| 23:51.19 | zenzelezz | yes, that's what I think of the movies |
| 23:51.20 | Iriel | How come the MVP one isn't animated? |
| 23:51.20 | AnduinLothar | is on my screen |
| 23:51.20 | Iriel | odd. |
| 23:51.20 | zenzelezz | is here too |
| 23:51.20 | Iriel | Oh, needed a shift reload |
| 23:51.20 | Qzot | I'm seeing lots and lots more animated forum avatars all over the place. Must be a creation tool somewhere... |
| 23:54.39 | Kirkburn | I'm sure I've missed some :P |
| 23:55.50 | Plorkyeran | Ogre? |
| 23:55.57 | Plorkyeran | Does he even post anymore? |
| 23:56.00 | Kirkburn | My next job will be to move all the icons to be local copies |
| 23:56.15 | Kirkburn | Haven't heard of Ogre - what forum? |
| 23:56.36 | Plorkyeran | He posted occasionally on the beta boards |
| 23:56.48 | Plorkyeran | If you haven't heard of him, the answer to the second question is probably no :P |
| 23:57.22 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 23:57.35 | Kirkburn | Like Katricia? |
| 23:57.52 | Plorkyeran | Yeah, but no amusing and dramatic leaving |
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| 23:59.30 | Kirkburn | How did Katricia leave then?# |
| 23:59.59 | Kirkburn | Btw, similar topic - what MVPs do people know of that I may have missed? http://www.wowwiki.com/MVP |
