| 00:00.06 | Shadowd | rofl |
| 00:00.19 | Kirkburn | Why of course! I don't seem to recall you coming to ZG with though ... |
| 00:00.24 | Kirkburn | *with us |
| 00:00.47 | Kirkburn | Let alone the fact that the belt is lvl 53 min |
| 00:00.55 | Shadowd | And ZG is level 55 min |
| 00:01.01 | Kirkburn | :D |
| 00:01.07 | Shadowd | Which makes no sense as to why the belt is lvl 53 min o.o |
| 00:01.16 | Kirkburn | The wildheart one |
| 00:01.23 | Shadowd | ah though you meant the ZG one |
| 00:01.31 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 00:02.05 | Kirkburn | i.e. he wants to upgrade a belt he can't use yet to a belt he hasn't in any way earnt. Nor has the rep nor ingredients for. |
| 00:02.39 | Kirkburn | "Why do you wanna cancel your account? At least you can make some money on it (for example selling it on ebay ;), or just giving it to some1..." |
| 00:02.51 | Shadowd | rofl |
| 00:03.19 | Kirkburn | Does he know more than us?: "I think that I will start playing with the horde - blood elfs. Theses ally things are really ugly!" |
| 00:03.29 | Kirkburn | (We're an alliance guild btw) |
| 00:03.54 | Kirkburn | All that and he's only made 17 posts ... |
| 00:07.05 | Kirkburn | ~8ball Should we kick him for being useless? |
| 00:07.07 | purl | Are you smoking crack? |
| 00:07.14 | Kirkburn | No, but I think he is |
| 00:09.01 | Kirkburn | I wonder who will be playing 2moro on the Blizz WG team |
| 00:10.19 | Kirkburn | I feel like I'm on my guild chat atm |
| 00:10.35 | Kirkburn | I know 300 can see this! Say something! |
| 00:10.48 | Adrine | Something. |
| 00:16.53 | Kirkburn | Cairenn, what's your policy on mods like "Chuck Norris fact generator"? |
| 00:17.00 | AnduinLothar | i have a friend who's gonna be on the wsg blizz team |
| 00:17.11 | Cairenn | annoying but permitted |
| 00:17.48 | AnduinLothar | think she's gonna be shaman... but her main is a druid so... shoul dbe interesting |
| 00:18.29 | Kirkburn | Name? |
| 00:18.39 | Kirkburn | (of her char) |
| 00:18.45 | Shadowd | AnduinLothar any idea what the chance of actually playing against the blizzard team is? |
| 00:19.02 | AnduinLothar | no idea |
| 00:19.08 | Shadowd | damn |
| 00:19.28 | Shadowd | Trying to figure out if it's worth power leveling a character to annoy them as much as possible with :D |
| 00:19.43 | Kirkburn | Not sure what you can say, but what do you do there? |
| 00:19.55 | AnduinLothar | QA |
| 00:20.20 | AnduinLothar | if you play them i'm fairly sure you'll get owned |
| 00:20.26 | Shadowd | naw |
| 00:21.07 | Shadowd | I'm not very good at 10-19 bracket though, none of the characters are developed enough to make full use of there abilities. |
| 00:21.15 | Adrine | Yeah. |
| 00:21.27 | Adrine | 10-19 is kinda just the twink league. |
| 00:21.31 | Shadowd | I'm kind of disapointed that they didn't choose 20-29 on the US test server or something. |
| 00:22.02 | Shadowd | 20-29 would be great with non twinkable characters. |
| 00:22.15 | AnduinLothar | thus, why you will get owned |
| 00:22.28 | Kirkburn | I know QA, but that doesn't tell me much :P |
| 00:22.33 | Shadowd | Depends how well they work together. |
| 00:22.47 | AnduinLothar | doesn't matter much at that level |
| 00:22.52 | Shadowd | it does in 10-19 |
| 00:23.02 | Shadowd | At 20-29 it's a lot easier to do stuff solo due to character development. |
| 00:23.09 | AnduinLothar | ... |
| 00:23.28 | Kirkburn | And whether they play with each other's chars again (I seem to recall Coreiel had a loincloth) |
| 00:23.29 | Adrine | ....hahahaha |
| 00:23.29 | Adrine | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7528043 |
| 00:23.59 | Adrine | Also, Coreiel should only fight in BGs if permanetly stuck in 1.10 Spirit of Redemption form. |
| 00:24.04 | Adrine | It's just wrong otherwise! |
| 00:25.06 | Kirkburn | lol |
| 00:25.23 | Shadowd | 10-19 is really no character advantage it's completly how well you can work together with people. |
| 00:25.42 | Kirkburn | The chars should be better equipped this time shouldn't they |
| 00:25.42 | Shadowd | Hardly any talent points, ect. |
| 00:25.54 | Adrine | Coreiel has been hanging around the rogue forums after the resident bitter folks scared off Cay. So, much love for Coreiel. :) |
| 00:26.04 | Kirkburn | She's on a mission! |
| 00:26.19 | Adrine | Thought what I think what really happened is that Cay pulled rank and threw Coreiel at us. >_> |
| 00:26.26 | Kirkburn | I do think she'll become a full on CM at some point |
| 00:26.31 | Adrine | "No way I'm going back in there. YOU take 'em." |
| 00:26.39 | Adrine | *shoves Coreiel in, slams door* |
| 00:26.40 | Kirov | who is Faizaniel, and why does he have blueish text? |
| 00:26.47 | Adrine | MVP? |
| 00:26.54 | Kirkburn | Yes |
| 00:26.56 | Kirkburn | She |
| 00:28.28 | Kirkburn | She gets insta-flamed for posting bugs, it's quite sad |
| 00:28.38 | Kirkburn | For example: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-realm-test&t=192314&p=1&tmp=1#post192314 |
| 00:29.04 | Legorol | Tain, you around? |
| 00:29.22 | Adrine | That's exactly why I would -never- take an MVP spot. |
| 00:29.31 | Adrine | It's like running around with Benediction in a battleground |
| 00:29.44 | Kirkburn | Palehoof seems to have fun |
| 00:29.46 | Adrine | FREE HONOR *flash flash sparkle spotlight* |
| 00:29.51 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 00:30.18 | Adrine | I'm sad about the priest upgrade for one reason: |
| 00:30.30 | Adrine | My plans to form an all holy priest guild named <Honor Vendor> won't really work anymore. :( |
| 00:30.53 | Kirov | hehe |
| 00:31.41 | Shadowd | What about paladins? |
| 00:31.58 | Kirov | Can't be killed |
| 00:32.33 | Kirov | Personally I think the paladin "Hearthstone" should automatically activate their shield |
| 00:34.26 | Qzot | Who would want a <Paladin Vendor>? |
| 00:34.40 | Qzot | Now, <Rent-a-BuffBot>, on the other hand... |
| 00:35.21 | Kirkburn | Warburn of <SummonBots-R-Us> |
| 00:35.42 | Kirkburn | Last guild <Soulstones For Sale!> |
| 00:35.54 | Qzot | Or healthstones... |
| 00:36.03 | Kirkburn | Qzot smells |
| 00:36.07 | Qzot | Mages: <All Ur Water Are Belong To Us> |
| 00:36.16 | Qzot | Qzot is a lock. |
| 00:36.27 | Kirkburn | Qzot is a smelly lock? |
| 00:37.06 | Kirkburn | And with that little bit on randomness, I leave you |
| 00:37.26 | Kirkburn | I would say nn, but I believe it stands for Nuke *Nix |
| 00:37.38 | Kirkburn | And I wouldn't want to incur wrath |
| 00:37.59 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 00:38.01 | AnduinLothar | why look... someone won the $14 and got xp to boot on the intelmac |
| 00:38.09 | AnduinLothar | $14k* |
| 00:38.21 | AnduinLothar | nifty |
| 00:38.26 | Shadowd | Oh? They actually proved it |
| 00:38.44 | AnduinLothar | there's a torrent with instructions and an intaller |
| 00:39.57 | Kirov | I like the duct tape metho |
| 00:39.58 | Kirov | d |
| 00:40.13 | AnduinLothar | you have to modify the installer, make a new install disk and partition your boot drive to half HFS+ and half FAT32 |
| 00:42.05 | AnduinLothar | hardest things was hacking together windows drivers for the hardware basicly |
| 00:43.10 | AnduinLothar | kernal mod and a few vid card drivers |
| 00:44.52 | AnduinLothar | lol.. "fwiw, im benchmarking my duo core mini and it performs about the same as a 2.8ghz 2 core p4 for some reason" |
| 00:48.36 | *** part/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=kcummins@proxy-ce5.disney.com) |
| 00:51.59 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=kcummins@proxy-ce3.disney.com) |
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| 00:58.36 | Tem | did they make a change to hidden tooltip scanning on the live servers? |
| 00:58.48 | Tem | I've got some old code that isn't working anymore |
| 00:59.03 | Kirov | Tem, where have you been for the last week? |
| 00:59.15 | Tem | taking mid-terms? |
| 00:59.19 | Kirov | ah |
| 00:59.58 | Tem | I heard something about a change in 1.10 |
| 00:59.59 | Kirov | MyTooltip: SetOwner(MyTooltip, "ANCHOR_NONE") |
| 01:00.07 | Kirov | on load |
| 01:00.07 | Tem | but was there a change for the live servers as well? |
| 01:00.16 | Kirov | shouldn't of been |
| 01:00.36 | Kirov | o... live server |
| 01:00.38 | Kirov | missed taht |
| 01:01.01 | cladhaire | Tem: Don't set parent in the XML, and do what kirov said |
| 01:01.18 | Tem | but... this a 1.9 tooltip scan |
| 01:01.22 | Tem | not a 1.10 |
| 01:01.26 | cladhaire | hrm |
| 01:01.28 | cladhaire | *shrug* |
| 01:01.33 | cladhaire | that is what you need to do either way =) |
| 01:01.34 | cladhaire | lol |
| 01:02.05 | Shadowd | Did something in 1.10 change to require a change in debuff scanning, not even hidden stuff just debuffs on yourself? |
| 01:02.31 | cladhaire | Shadowd: Not from what I can see.. UnitDebuff is happy |
| 01:03.21 | Shadowd | hmm weird |
| 01:04.19 | Shadowd | Some code i have to check if i'm feared/disoriented or anything berserker rage can break doesn't seem to work on 1.10 but I can't figure out why yet, havn't had much of a chance to test. |
| 01:06.32 | Qzot | Later, people. |
| 01:06.37 | Shadowd | later Qzot |
| 01:10.37 | cladhaire | Shadowd: Most likely the tooltip issue biting you |
| 01:10.46 | Shadowd | Bah |
| 01:11.01 | Shadowd | Just using a slightly modified version of IsBuffActive. |
| 01:11.26 | Legorol | tooltips didn't change in 1.9, afaik |
| 01:12.04 | Shadowd | But they did change in 1.10 apparently or else the code would still work. |
| 01:12.10 | Legorol | What's changing in 1.10 are two things: a) you *have to* call SetOwner on the tooltip to initialize it before you can use, previously this was optional |
| 01:12.33 | Shadowd | Ahh that would probably do it |
| 01:12.39 | Shadowd | It just calls ClearLines and SetUnitBuff. |
| 01:12.40 | Legorol | b) under certain circumstances (I can explain furhter if necessary) SetOwner call from an <OnLoad> handler doesn't work |
| 01:13.22 | Legorol | The safest way to use a tooltip in 1.10 is to always call SetOwner right before you call SetXxxx on it to fill it in |
| 01:13.40 | Shadowd | Does it matter what you set the owner to? Or can you do like UIParent without issues. |
| 01:13.49 | Legorol | you can set anything.. even itself |
| 01:13.52 | Legorol | in fact that's what i do :D |
| 01:13.56 | Shadowd | hehe |
| 01:13.59 | Legorol | this:SetOwner(this, "ANCHOR_NONE") |
| 01:14.02 | Shadowd | Thanks for the help, that'll save a lot of testing |
| 01:14.10 | Legorol | this ensures no potential pitfalls with the owner getting hidden or some such |
| 01:14.38 | Legorol | btw, for tooltips *owner* and *parent* are two very separate things |
| 01:14.40 | Legorol | not to be confused |
| 01:14.50 | Shadowd | alright |
| 01:15.17 | Iriel | Legorol : Is 'owner' more akin to 'anchor relativeTo' ? |
| 01:15.18 | Legorol | yah, can be tricky.. |
| 01:15.27 | Legorol | Iriel, yes |
| 01:16.20 | Legorol | although it does allow for the IsOwned method |
| 01:16.26 | Legorol | unfortunately there is no GetOwner :( |
| 01:16.30 | Legorol | i really should've asked for it |
| 01:16.47 | Iriel | can you calculate it by enumerating anchors on the final tootlip? |
| 01:17.25 | ckknight | okay, does anyone know if I can check if a unit is a pet? |
| 01:17.35 | ckknight | something like UnitIsPet("mouseover")? |
| 01:17.39 | Legorol | Iriel, i never tried |
| 01:17.45 | Legorol | anchor enumeration is new in 1.10, right? |
| 01:17.51 | Iriel | UnitIsPlayerControlled and not UnitIsPlayer gets you part way |
| 01:18.01 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: Need to parse tooltip to be accurate |
| 01:18.01 | Iriel | Then try checking its tooltip for a pet line |
| 01:18.18 | ckknight | GenNMX|Thrae, I'm willing to do that |
| 01:18.21 | Legorol | actually, there is one thing i was looking forward to in 1.10 that i forgot about :D |
| 01:18.27 | ckknight | I need to pick up Hunter pets and Warlock minions |
| 01:18.42 | Legorol | the tooltip SetOwner method used to have a bizarre behaviour where it'd introduce a "pseudo-TOP" anchor to the tooltip |
| 01:18.52 | Iriel | I think it's UnitPlayerControlled actually, now I come to think about it, check the wiki to be sure 8-) |
| 01:19.00 | Legorol | hm, it's kind of hard to explain... but anyways, i was always wondering what was going on there |
| 01:19.11 | Legorol | with anchor enumeration in 1.10 i should be able to get to the bottom of it |
| 01:20.30 | Legorol | wah, what happened to the wowwiki? code snippets are showing up as black text on white background |
| 01:20.55 | ckknight | is that bad? |
| 01:21.02 | ckknight | before they were black on gray for me |
| 01:21.13 | Legorol | ick |
| 01:21.57 | Iriel | That's nastily ugly isn't it |
| 01:22.05 | Shadowd | yes it is |
| 01:22.11 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: http://pastebin.com/606640, nothing major |
| 01:22.49 | Legorol | Hm, i found a way to crash 1.10, and now i can't reproduce it.. |
| 01:23.06 | GenNMX|Thrae | Although I would first check UnitPlayerControlled and not UnitIsPlayer like Iriel suggested, I'm going to add that to my own function. Save you the cost of parsing the string every time. |
| 01:26.42 | ckknight | I really want to check if a player isn't a pet |
| 01:26.45 | ckknight | and is player controlled |
| 01:26.58 | ckknight | is there a better way to do that? |
| 01:27.22 | Kirov | do druids show up as being beasts when shape shifted? |
| 01:27.24 | ckknight | check UnitIsPlayer()? |
| 01:27.35 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: UnitIsPlayer instead of not UnitIsPlayer |
| 01:27.39 | cladhaire | Kirov: Yes they do |
| 01:27.55 | ckknight | okay, but UnitIsPlayer("mouseover") won't work for pets, right? |
| 01:28.01 | Iriel | Right |
| 01:28.02 | GenNMX|Thrae | Kirov: Hence why they're great at hiding the flag |
| 01:28.05 | Iriel | You should find that |
| 01:28.20 | Iriel | if (UnitIsPlayer("mouseover") or not UnitIsPlayerControlled("mouseover")) then return false; end |
| 01:28.28 | Iriel | works as good first thing to check |
| 01:28.36 | Iriel | before you make the game render you a tooltip and before you scan it |
| 01:28.53 | Iriel | Aain, I think it may be UnitPlayerControlled tho 8-) |
| 01:29.07 | GenNMX|Thrae | It's UnitPlayerControlled |
| 01:30.16 | GenNMX|Thrae | And why not something like -- function UnitIsMCd(unit) return UnitIsPlayer(unit) and UnitPlayerControlled(unit) end |
| 01:31.10 | Iriel | Well, UnitPlayerControlled always returns true for players, doesn't it? |
| 01:31.19 | GenNMX|Thrae | UnitPlayerControlled, lemme look that up again |
| 01:31.25 | ckknight | yea |
| 01:31.42 | GenNMX|Thrae | I was just thinking that Iriel, you'd think it would, but it might mean if the originating player has control |
| 01:31.52 | Iriel | I'm pretty sure it doesnt |
| 01:32.01 | Iriel | The wiki agrees with me |
| 01:32.02 | Iriel | 8-) |
| 01:32.59 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yeah, seems to define a "player" as any human, hmmm |
| 01:33.28 | ckknight | seems to work good now |
| 01:34.17 | GenNMX|Thrae | Oh wait, here's one -- UnitIsCharmed("unit") |
| 01:34.27 | GenNMX|Thrae | What does WoW consider a "charm" effect? MC? |
| 01:36.43 | Iriel | I believe so |
| 01:37.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yeah, so then UnitIsPlayer("mouseover") and UnitIsCharmed("mouseover") should be perfect |
| 01:38.09 | ckknight | perfect for what? |
| 01:38.31 | GenNMX|Thrae | I thought you wanted to see if the mouseover target was mind-controlled? |
| 01:38.57 | ckknight | no, I just wanted to see if they were human, so I could get the number of current Hks I have on em |
| 01:39.04 | ckknight | and add a line to the tooltip |
| 01:39.31 | GenNMX|Thrae | < ckknight:#WoWI-lounge> I really want to check if a player isn't a pet < ckknight:#WoWI-lounge> and is player controlled |
| 01:40.20 | ckknight | by that I meant not an NPC |
| 01:41.09 | ckknight | sorry for the confusion |
| 01:41.32 | Legorol | Iriel, would you be willing to enter into some discussions regards to Lua protection? |
| 01:41.39 | Legorol | if you are not too busy and can keep half an eye on here ;-) |
| 01:41.47 | Iriel | I can spare half a retina, sure |
| 01:42.04 | ckknight | by protection, do you mean privacy? |
| 01:42.49 | Iriel | I suspect he means code-signing/tainting protection |
| 01:43.17 | ckknight | ah, okay |
| 01:45.20 | GenNMX|Thrae | Well then this should tell you of a pet -- not UnitIsPlayer("mouseover") and UnitPlayerControlled("mouseover") and not UnitClassification("mousever") == "Humanoid" |
| 01:46.41 | Kirov | Tain protection? |
| 01:46.50 | GenNMX|Thrae | If you want to include players mind-controlled, then tack on -- ) or ( UnitIsCharmed("mouseover") and UnitReaction("mouseover") == "hostile") |
| 01:46.57 | GenNMX|Thrae | Oops |
| 01:47.01 | GenNMX|Thrae | If you want to include players mind-controlled, then tack on -- ) or ( UnitIsCharmed("mouseover") and UnitReaction("mouseover") == "friendly") |
| 01:47.16 | GenNMX|Thrae | IE, if they're charmed AND friendly, then they're an enemy that's charmed |
| 01:50.07 | GenNMX|Thrae | Hmmm, where's a good place to buy Mad Catz cables? |
| 01:50.13 | Iriel | Buy what? |
| 01:50.18 | Kirov | No where? |
| 01:50.48 | Kirov | (I usually just buy them from BestBuy) |
| 01:50.50 | GenNMX|Thrae | Mad Catz make decent console cables for decent prices, unlike the retail giant Monster |
| 01:50.57 | Iriel | #/msg legorol yeah, i'm not sure about |
| 01:51.00 | Iriel | Ack |
| 01:51.02 | Iriel | Best buy? |
| 01:51.18 | Iriel | That's just a guess, by the way |
| 01:51.19 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yeah, I'm looking on Best Buy's website and I just see the "Universal" types (which include splitters, hence lag) |
| 01:51.33 | Kirov | what kind of cable? |
| 01:51.53 | GenNMX|Thrae | I'm looking for a S-Video Cable for PS2 |
| 01:54.09 | Kirov | http://www.buy.com/prod/Monster_Cable_6_Ft_Cable_PlayStation_2/q/loc/108/201200724.html |
| 01:54.20 | Kirov | amazingly cheap for a Monster product |
| 01:54.29 | Kirov | Half the price of the "official" ones |
| 01:54.42 | GenNMX|Thrae | Kirov: Don't you know of Buy.com's reputation? |
| 01:54.47 | Iriel | with buy.com you run the risk of it being outof stock and taking a year to be delivered |
| 01:54.57 | Iriel | I've had great experiences with buy.com for items in stock ONLY |
| 01:55.04 | Iriel | Horrible experiences for ANYTHING that's backordered |
| 01:55.11 | Kirov | Yeah |
| 01:55.14 | GenNMX|Thrae | Buy.com also runs the grey market a lot, which is why their stock can flucuate |
| 01:55.19 | Kirov | That particular item is 1-2 days |
| 01:55.20 | Miravlix | Is http://ace.pastebin.com/606346 from a released addon? |
| 01:55.27 | Iriel | It CLAIMS to be 1-2 days |
| 01:55.34 | Kirov | right |
| 01:55.41 | Kirov | so, it'll be about a week |
| 01:55.45 | Iriel | or never |
| 01:55.48 | Iriel | depending on your luck |
| 01:56.01 | Kirov | I buy everything I can from newegg.com if I can help it |
| 01:56.06 | Iriel | It's sort of quantum in nature, the only way you know is to order it |
| 01:56.12 | Iriel | newegg seem a lot more reliable |
| 01:56.31 | GenNMX|Thrae | I love Newegg, everything in their NJ warehouse (most stuff) comes in 1-2 days |
| 01:56.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | With cheapest shipping |
| 01:56.56 | Kirov | I got stuff the same day once. |
| 01:57.14 | Kirov | Ordered at like 2am, got it at 3pm |
| 01:57.32 | Kirov | That one got me |
| 01:59.51 | Kirov | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000DZEUU8/qid=1142560754/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/002-0772711-8051220?v=glance&s=videogames - lol |
| 02:00.51 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Parak (n=profi@user-0cev737.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 02:13.04 | Tain | I also throw my hat in support of newegg. |
| 02:13.51 | Corrodias | i did buy most of my computer from newegg |
| 02:13.59 | GenNMX|Thrae | Well my other option is a DVI Switch -- and I find they're pretty darn expensive. |
| 02:14.04 | Corrodias | although they do have their problems with inaccurate pictures. you can't trust the pictures. |
| 02:14.18 | Corrodias | i had to order another fan because of that |
| 02:14.41 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphen (n=masked@c-67-183-238-150.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 02:15.08 | *** join/#wowi-lounge slouken (i=slouken@devolution.com) |
| 02:15.17 | slouken | Quick question, did the test server get updated today? |
| 02:15.31 | Cairenn | hadn't earlier |
| 02:15.48 | Cairenn | nope |
| 02:15.52 | slouken | Okay, thanks. :) |
| 02:15.55 | Cairenn | just checked again |
| 02:16.11 | GenNMX|Thrae | That was weird |
| 02:16.47 | Cairenn | no, that was a dev :p |
| 02:17.10 | GenNMX|Thrae | Apparently I underestimated the scope of Cairenn's knowledge -- she knows things that even Blizzard employees involved in testing may not know! |
| 02:18.55 | Iriel | slouken doesn't do testing, he just makes the bugs. |
| 02:18.56 | Iriel | 8-) |
| 02:19.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | Haha, well I mean, involved in concurrent development |
| 02:20.01 | Iriel | I frequently have to ask if my code got pushed to QA or production at work |
| 02:20.14 | Iriel | Someone else runs and deploys the build |
| 02:20.19 | Iriel | I just know if I checked my code in |
| 02:20.39 | GenNMX|Thrae | I always thought Blizzard was a more progressive company then that, I guess they're your typical game development company then |
| 02:20.58 | GenNMX|Thrae | IE, each department lives on a little island and speaks a different language |
| 02:20.59 | Gryphen | lol |
| 02:21.12 | Iriel | I dunno, I dont think it's a sign of weakness |
| 02:21.23 | Iriel | More a sign that slouken's too busy to fire up the public test client |
| 02:21.25 | Gryphen | i think its a sign of their size |
| 02:21.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | I never said it was slouken's fault |
| 02:21.48 | Iriel | Yeah, size is a big factor |
| 02:23.01 | GenNMX|Thrae | After working for gaming companies, I just became disillusioned by how the producers end up de-evolving the fluid atmosphere that the company started on. |
| 02:23.47 | GenNMX|Thrae | I mean, sure, it'll be harder to maintain solid communication and fluidity across departments as the company grows in size and new departments are made, but isn't that the MAIN job of managers? |
| 02:24.13 | Tain | I think slouken is getting used to having a bunch of people sitting in an irc channel at his beck and call. ;) |
| 02:24.14 | Gryphen | Not cost effective if they dont need to know |
| 02:24.40 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yet it seemed to me that game companies are no stranger to the same idiotic managers that plague the mainstream corporate world. |
| 02:24.54 | Iriel | Well, idiotic managers are a global phenomenon 8-) |
| 02:25.05 | Iriel | When I grow up I hope not to become one. |
| 02:25.14 | Tain | I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys R Us kid. |
| 02:25.25 | GenNMX|Thrae | Gryphen: Well, I never said that wasn't true |
| 02:25.34 | Tain | I'd really hate to wake up one day and be Toys R Us middle-management. |
| 02:26.04 | GenNMX|Thrae | Tain: They're all pedophiles anyway. |
| 02:26.07 | Iriel | You'd probably have a corporate discount |
| 02:26.10 | Iriel | That might be worth sometihng |
| 02:27.25 | GenNMX|Thrae | Ah yes, the Walmart Mentality from South Park -- "I quit my job and started at Walmart so I could get their employee discount, so we're buying everything from Walmart now. And even though I make less money now, the discount makes us about break even!" |
| 02:33.07 | ckknight | even though the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, the standard of living is rising for the poor, so they are actually better off than they were. This is thanks to many factors, the most important being the Walmart economy. |
| 02:36.14 | GenNMX|Thrae | I am in favour of a wealth cap. |
| 02:36.51 | GenNMX|Thrae | I can't see how an economy could benefit from 5% of its population obtaining something like 30% of its wealth. |
| 02:37.16 | ckknight | maybe they handle it more efficiently |
| 02:38.32 | GenNMX|Thrae | Well, there is a threshold where you have much more leeway to gain and control the economy. We're not talking about people who meet this criteria, we're talking about people who are far above it. |
| 02:39.14 | ckknight | and what about them? |
| 02:39.35 | ckknight | what if they earned their money? |
| 02:40.14 | GenNMX|Thrae | The US, in particular, was founded on democracy, yet the interaction between economy and government shows the government is far more moved by that 5% then the rest of its population. |
| 02:40.56 | ckknight | Plato said democracy could never work because then the ppor would be in power |
| 02:41.24 | GenNMX|Thrae | It's a matter of ethics. I can't see it's ethical to having too much power over the economy, even if you know what you're doing. |
| 02:42.08 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yes, and the founders loved having slaves and beating their wives, etc. -- society evolves, y'know, and so should the paradigms. |
| 02:43.24 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: Exactly my point. Democracy was founded over a thousand years ago and reshaped into what it is today. How are the thinkers of the past anymore reputable then the thinkers of today? |
| 02:44.23 | ckknight | I'm not saying they are |
| 02:44.26 | ckknight | merely making a point |
| 02:44.35 | ckknight | poor people are poor for a reason |
| 02:44.44 | ckknight | and although I disagree with inheritance |
| 02:44.47 | GenNMX|Thrae | The poor people are poor for many reasons |
| 02:44.59 | ckknight | because that is a bad factor among the whole scheme |
| 02:45.09 | ckknight | someone who is determined enough can do anything |
| 02:45.16 | ckknight | granted that they have the adequate skills |
| 02:45.46 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yes, but inheritance is fair. If the parents put through enough effort, their children should be rewarded. |
| 02:46.06 | GenNMX|Thrae | What I don't like is the absurdly high level of inheritances that can occur, in the millions upon millions. |
| 02:46.14 | ckknight | I suppose |
| 02:46.17 | GenNMX|Thrae | Or in Gates' case, the billions upon billions. |
| 02:46.26 | ckknight | my kids will get education and nothing else from me |
| 02:47.05 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: So if you invented something that made you rich, you wouldn't let your children live a better life then you did? |
| 02:47.23 | GenNMX|Thrae | Speaking of evil corporations -- $11 shipping and handling for a $4 item!! |
| 02:47.33 | ckknight | they would get proper education, and with that they can make their own money |
| 02:48.00 | Iriel | Overnight shipping?? |
| 02:48.09 | Iriel | Can't you just drive to a store? |
| 02:48.11 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: 3-7 business days to process and ship |
| 02:48.28 | GenNMX|Thrae | Yeah, I'm going to go over to Best Buy tommorrow. This is silly. |
| 02:49.18 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: Well, I don't mean to let the children mooch, but at least you wouldn't have to be stingy about toys and living arrangments. |
| 02:49.54 | GenNMX|Thrae | I agree, I wouldn't want my children to become leechy vegtables. |
| 02:49.54 | ckknight | I never got toys when I was a child |
| 02:51.09 | Iriel | The problem with inheritance is it plays against the arguments for not taxing the rich too highly |
| 02:51.31 | ckknight | I'm against taxes outright |
| 02:51.34 | GenNMX|Thrae | Well, actually, for me, I'd be careful with toys. I grew up poor with little actual toys, and even with video games all around me, I still have twice the imagination even at my age then my little brother and sister, who got all the toys they asked for. |
| 02:51.35 | Iriel | The argument goes something like this: "We shouldn't overtax the rich, because they buy lots of expensive things, which trickles down into the economy and does good" |
| 02:52.11 | Tain | Look, all I want is the opportunity to prove that argument is right or wrong from the rich person's point of view. |
| 02:52.11 | Legorol | Noo, test realm going down :( |
| 02:52.17 | Iriel | Which is fine if the rich do SPEND their riches, but if they just stick it in a vault to earn interest and their children do the same, then the money doesn't do anyone else any good other than the rich |
| 02:52.19 | ckknight | yea, I know |
| 02:52.22 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: I heard the argument -- "We shouldn't tax the rich because they know what better to do with their money then the government. Like if you didn't tax Bill Gates 20 Million a year, he'd just donate it to some charity." |
| 02:52.46 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: You're in favour of anarchy? |
| 02:52.57 | ckknight | I'm a Libertarian |
| 02:53.42 | GenNMX|Thrae | Isn't the Libertarian party most active in Europe? |
| 02:53.51 | Tain | I'm all for checking books in and out of the library too, but I don't see how that affects things. |
| 02:53.54 | ckknight | I dunno |
| 02:54.02 | ckknight | I only pay attention to the American front |
| 02:54.15 | ckknight | we'll never be in power, because it doesn't need to happen |
| 02:54.25 | ckknight | instead, we influence judges and lawyers and businessmen |
| 02:54.29 | ckknight | the lifeblood of America |
| 02:55.41 | GenNMX|Thrae | Lawyers are above my list of dislikes about the rich in general, since many of them (or at the least the notorious ones) ARE pretty wealthy, and became so by exploiting the law. |
| 02:56.03 | ckknight | and it's beautiful in its own way |
| 02:56.20 | ckknight | my brother's a lawyer, btw |
| 02:56.44 | ckknight | well, he's in his last semester of Law School |
| 02:56.59 | GenNMX|Thrae | You don't think this country is in desperate need of tort reform, both on the state and federal level? |
| 02:57.15 | ckknight | no, I'm against tort reform |
| 03:00.43 | GenNMX|Thrae | Well, how about, for instance, how in the United States there is no way to do proper trial and testing of a drug, with sufficient follow-up with any known side-effects, and not be subject to crippling civil suits? |
| 03:00.59 | GenNMX|Thrae | Hence why drugs in the US are so costly compared to Canada and Europe. |
| 03:01.20 | GenNMX|Thrae | s/not be subject/not be open/. |
| 03:03.02 | GenNMX|Thrae | There is no precedent, legal or otherwise, about how to "properly" test, distribute, and follow-up on the release of a drug in the US, because there are a team of laywers (manned by Stanley something, I think Stanley Cooper) to prevent a huge gash into their line of work (ambulance chasers). |
| 03:04.17 | ckknight | alright |
| 03:04.38 | ckknight | I'm not fully familiar with the pharmaceutical industry's legal and economic policies |
| 03:04.52 | GenNMX|Thrae | It seems to me that experience would be against the Libertarian's point of view, since it stems on the legal precendants which establish that the drug companies can take most of the blame for mishaps involving their products. |
| 03:05.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | While really the Libertarian focus should be on the doctor <--> paitent relationship. |
| 03:06.46 | ckknight | not all Libertarians are the same or share the same precise focus |
| 03:07.21 | GenNMX|Thrae | OK, then how about how a doctor can be subject to massive, crippling malpractice suits if another doctor disputes his diagnosises and if the paitent says they suffered from it. All of this is really hearsay and hindsight, yet it leads to HUGE Medical Insurance bills for the common person, and even more staggering bills for the medical facilities. |
| 03:08.13 | ckknight | if someone in the medical profession fucks up, he or she should pay the fine in full. A person's life shouldn't be gambled with |
| 03:08.39 | Iriel | Then surely the fees in medicine should be the values of someone's life |
| 03:08.55 | Iriel | If a doctor saves a life, he should get the same payment he'd have to pay if he accidently killed the person? |
| 03:09.09 | Iriel | So if someone sets your broken arm, $200,000 should be fine, right? |
| 03:09.32 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Actually, in some cases, you can sue if a doctor saves your life (DNR not included) if the doctor "was too rough". |
| 03:10.07 | Cairenn | perform CPR, crack a rib, get sued |
| 03:10.09 | Iriel | My point is that malpractice is out of control, really |
| 03:10.25 | GenNMX|Thrae | Agreed, Iriel |
| 03:10.29 | Iriel | Obviously in cases of real negligence or ineptitude, there should be a cost |
| 03:10.56 | GenNMX|Thrae | Civil court in general is in desperate need of tort reform. |
| 03:11.10 | Iriel | Yeah, standardization of legal fees would likely help too |
| 03:11.12 | Cairenn | *in your opinion* |
| 03:11.47 | Legorol | I think the US society is too "trigger happy" with legal action, full stop |
| 03:11.51 | GenNMX|Thrae | Cairenn: I thought that was implied by the scope of our discussion ;) |
| 03:11.55 | cladhaire | If something is in layout-cache.txt.. whats the easiest way to get it removed from there? |
| 03:12.05 | ckknight | no way, America is the most litigious nation in the world |
| 03:12.05 | Legorol | delete layout-cache.txt... ? |
| 03:12.06 | Corrodias | deleting the file |
| 03:12.11 | Iriel | Which of course is a tricky situation, the facts that bring about too little barrier to frivolous lawsuits is the same one that gives those without money legal recourse |
| 03:12.12 | ckknight | and it is extremely unlikely that it'll stop now |
| 03:12.14 | Iriel | :SetUserPlaced(false) |
| 03:12.15 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: Yes, we are |
| 03:12.25 | cladhaire | Iriel: Thanks.. I knew I was missing something silly =) |
| 03:12.33 | Legorol | yes Iriel, i agree |
| 03:12.43 | Legorol | i think the problem is not so much the amount of frivolous lawsuits, |
| 03:12.49 | Legorol | but the nature of the suits that are actually won |
| 03:12.53 | Cairenn | just reminding folks that the discussion is "in your opinion" (generic your, not specific), so as to prevent folks from getting too hot under the collar |
| 03:13.01 | Iriel | That could of course be solved by prosecuting those who bring about frivolous suits as a matter of course |
| 03:13.15 | Legorol | i am all for easy access to legal recourse |
| 03:13.20 | Legorol | it's way too costly as it is |
| 03:13.23 | Iriel | I think in general very few truly frivolous suits are actually Won |
| 03:13.32 | Iriel | Many are settled, which is the real pain point |
| 03:13.33 | Legorol | but i don't think that a woman who puts a doggie in a microwave should win a suit ;-) |
| 03:13.48 | GenNMX|Thrae | One problem with the law is the way that it was founded opens huge holes to the problems we are having now. The very idea of "reasonable doubt" by a jury, in this day and age of high technology and science, is a myth. |
| 03:14.18 | GenNMX|Thrae | In too many cases, it becomes about the "battle of the experts", or "which expert sounds more compelling" |
| 03:14.37 | Legorol | GenNMX|Thrae has a good point |
| 03:14.41 | Legorol | (in my opinion ;-)) |
| 03:14.48 | GenNMX|Thrae | How is the common man suppose to decide if the "SNIPS" procedure was actually necessary on DNA analysis? |
| 03:14.51 | Iriel | Well, the education system's got a fair share of blame there too |
| 03:15.03 | Legorol | so how about abolishing the jury system? |
| 03:15.09 | Legorol | do you think having a jury is a good idea? |
| 03:15.16 | ckknight | I do |
| 03:15.16 | Legorol | why not have a professional judge panel of some sort |
| 03:15.18 | Iriel | GenNMX|Thrae : Does the common man really need to decide |
| 03:15.22 | Iriel | I think it's a good idea too |
| 03:15.31 | ckknight | typically 12 normal people are going to figure out the right solution |
| 03:15.32 | Iriel | But it does require a generally educated populous to be useful |
| 03:15.33 | ckknight | typically |
| 03:16.02 | Legorol | i think that having 12 normal people on a jury biases a lot of the cases |
| 03:16.12 | Legorol | for example, what if a "normal person" is suing a large corporation |
| 03:16.16 | Iriel | I'm going to take issue with "a lot" |
| 03:16.23 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: Just watch a few episodes of Law & Order -- while some of their cases are incredulous, a lot of them are based on real cases with real legal twists and turns. |
| 03:16.23 | Legorol | ok fair enough |
| 03:16.27 | Legorol | i exaggerated |
| 03:16.37 | ckknight | GenNMX|Thrae, I love Law & Order |
| 03:16.40 | Iriel | I think the legal system works, for the most part, quite well, but has some significant aberrations at the edges |
| 03:16.55 | Legorol | ok let me restate: in my opinion there is an inherent bias when there are 12 "normal" people on the jury |
| 03:17.12 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: As do I, but I feel sad when I think that this show may actually represent reality |
| 03:17.20 | Legorol | Iriel, what do you think is the reason for the US being labelled as the most litigous country? And do you think it's true? |
| 03:17.22 | ckknight | yea |
| 03:17.25 | Iriel | I do think it's true |
| 03:17.29 | ckknight | I like SVU in particular |
| 03:17.31 | ckknight | but that's just me |
| 03:17.32 | Iriel | but I think much of the time it works out okay |
| 03:17.49 | Iriel | There are some areas where that's not true |
| 03:17.56 | GenNMX|Thrae | Of course, I'm not so fascinated by TV that I think most cases are like the ones on Law & Order. From my research, most legal cases are cut & dry. But its the snafus which make me sad. |
| 03:17.56 | Legorol | if that is indeed the case, then i'm all for it |
| 03:18.04 | Iriel | Dont get me started on Intellectual Property law |
| 03:18.18 | ckknight | ah, IP law |
| 03:18.21 | Legorol | unfortunately the impression i am getting is that often it doesn't go in the "sensible" direction |
| 03:18.23 | ckknight | interesting stuff |
| 03:18.30 | Legorol | (personal opinion and impression, not statement of facts) |
| 03:18.34 | Iriel | I've had the profound displeasure of being involved in patent suits |
| 03:18.48 | ckknight | I'm very much pro-patents |
| 03:18.55 | ckknight | not so much for software patents, though |
| 03:18.58 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: US is the most litigious country because we were there first. We held the first modernly democraticly-backed courts. |
| 03:19.06 | Iriel | I'm very much pro patents for most things, but not software |
| 03:19.12 | ckknight | I'm not anti-software patents, I merely think that 20 years is too long for the tech age |
| 03:19.16 | Iriel | Unless they're extremely specific, and ACTUALLY novel |
| 03:19.26 | Corrodias | a couple of years is plenty |
| 03:19.27 | ckknight | something closer to 4 or 5 seems better |
| 03:19.27 | Iriel | Not just a specialization of an 'obvious' general principle |
| 03:19.41 | Legorol | i think that the general idea behind software patents is OK: someone coming up with a clever algorithm deserves to reap profits |
| 03:19.43 | Corrodias | being able to lay claim to an algorithm is silly |
| 03:19.47 | Legorol | but it's probably implemented wrong |
| 03:19.57 | GenNMX|Thrae | And because of that fact, we are also hard to change, because our foundation was forging new ground. |
| 03:19.59 | Iriel | I aggree with Corrodias , unless it's REALLY novel, then maybe |
| 03:20.33 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel and Corrodias: Then how do people who make algorithmns for a living, make a living? |
| 03:20.36 | Corrodias | i really shouldn't get involved in this conversation. |
| 03:20.48 | ckknight | the patent office needs reform ;-) |
| 03:20.49 | Legorol | i think it should be approached like trademarks: as far as i know, you can't trademark a common english word, but an original creation you can |
| 03:20.54 | Iriel | Well, presumably they're making the algorithm for a purpose |
| 03:20.57 | GenNMX|Thrae | That sentance doesn't make perfect sense, but you get the idea of my question ;) |
| 03:21.10 | Iriel | that purpose presumably is an incentive to devise their idea |
| 03:21.14 | Corrodias | communism! |
| 03:21.14 | Legorol | what you'd need is a *competent* patent office |
| 03:21.22 | ckknight | goddamn commies. |
| 03:21.24 | Legorol | without that, the whole thing can't work |
| 03:21.24 | Iriel | And if you come up with an algorithm, chances are you're a subject matter expert, and what you know is valuable |
| 03:21.40 | Corrodias | we could have a programmer commune, and we could all wear shirts with leet phrases on them |
| 03:21.53 | ckknight | but what about all my A&F wear? |
| 03:22.00 | Legorol | noooooooooo |
| 03:22.03 | Legorol | test realms updating! |
| 03:22.05 | Legorol | sobs :( |
| 03:22.08 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Sometimes algorithmns can be used for more then one thing, though. For example, an Asian scientist trying to better understand microbiology found out the algorithmn he was working on could also be used to solve all Sudoku puzzles. |
| 03:22.09 | Iriel | heheh |
| 03:22.10 | ckknight | 5270? |
| 03:22.16 | Corrodias | your what wear? |
| 03:22.18 | Legorol | dunno yet, jsut getting it.. |
| 03:22.19 | Cairenn | probably |
| 03:22.25 | Iriel | So? should he get to patent that? |
| 03:22.36 | Iriel | What if you also come across the same solution from a different direction? |
| 03:22.39 | Corrodias | no, he should use it to blackmail the producers of the puzzles. :) |
| 03:22.50 | Legorol | 5174 it is |
| 03:22.54 | Iriel | What if the algorithm is an obvious jump from another commonly used algorithm? |
| 03:22.56 | Cairenn | 5174 |
| 03:23.03 | Legorol | realms not up yet though |
| 03:23.07 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: If he had published the algorithmn without any patent or copyright, then some Sudoku company could snatch it up and sell solving software without even agknowleding him. |
| 03:23.08 | Legorol | beat you Cairenn ;-) |
| 03:23.21 | Cairenn | so you did |
| 03:23.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: To misquote Thomas Edison, "We are where we are today by standing on the backs of giants." |
| 03:23.48 | Legorol | this should be a very exciting update though |
| 03:24.06 | Iriel | Well, let's take Sudoku because it's vaguelly relevant |
| 03:24.30 | Iriel | I'm pretty sure I could write a Sudoku solver, in fact, it's the kind of puzzle you give to 1st or 2nd year CS students |
| 03:24.44 | Iriel | So, suppose your scientist patented his |
| 03:24.52 | Iriel | And then I write mine, and it works, and it's kinda close to his |
| 03:24.58 | Iriel | But I didn't know his existed |
| 03:25.14 | Iriel | Is it fair that he can then demand royalties, or sue me if I try and distribute mine? |
| 03:25.25 | Legorol | doesn't this same problme |
| 03:25.33 | Legorol | *problem apply to ordinary patents too? |
| 03:25.37 | Iriel | Sort of |
| 03:25.39 | Legorol | what if someone patents a trivial application |
| 03:25.43 | Legorol | for example, an automatic kettle |
| 03:25.53 | Iriel | but I feel computer science is all about applying certain sets of solutions in different combinations |
| 03:26.12 | Iriel | You're much more likely to have multiple independent discoveries of the same thing |
| 03:26.13 | Legorol | i agree that in computer science it's much more likely that you have independent, parallel solutions |
| 03:26.17 | Legorol | jinx |
| 03:26.18 | GenNMX|Thrae | Trivial patents (like Amazon successful patenting their One Click(tm) ordering system, which is a usage of cookies) must die, I agree. |
| 03:26.24 | Iriel | Of course, that's just my opinion, but I think i'm qualfied to have it. |
| 03:26.37 | Legorol | everyone is qualified to have opinions |
| 03:26.44 | Legorol | very few are qualified to state facts ;-) |
| 03:27.12 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: I think an algorithmn should be judged by the entire proof leading up to the algorithmn, not by the result itself. |
| 03:27.19 | Legorol | you could say that you are qualified to state your opinion with an emphasis :-) |
| 03:27.33 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: Too late -- I already trademarked your opinion. |
| 03:27.50 | Iriel | GenNMX|Thrae | But that's extremely difficult to quantify in any comparable sense |
| 03:27.50 | ckknight | you can't trademark an opinion |
| 03:27.56 | ckknight | I think you can copyright it, though |
| 03:28.01 | Legorol | nope |
| 03:28.06 | Legorol | you can't do anything with an opinion |
| 03:28.10 | ckknight | lol |
| 03:28.11 | GenNMX|Thrae | I was joking ;) |
| 03:28.12 | Legorol | only have it :-) |
| 03:28.16 | Iriel | I can write it on a piece of paper and eat it |
| 03:28.19 | Iriel | That's "something" |
| 03:28.30 | Legorol | you can write it on a piece of paper, *then* you can copyright it ;-) |
| 03:28.31 | Iriel | I could substitute 'cheese' for paper, also |
| 03:28.39 | Legorol | works with cheese too |
| 03:28.46 | Iriel | And I could patent the use of cheese as an edible writing medium, unless someone else has |
| 03:28.48 | Legorol | then you will have cheesy opinions |
| 03:29.54 | ckknight | man, I want some cheese now |
| 03:30.17 | Legorol | I love the Blizz Interface AddOn Kit |
| 03:30.27 | Legorol | it makes awesome music when it completes extraction |
| 03:30.42 | Legorol | best sound effect for extraction completion i ever heard from a compressed file extractor :-) |
| 03:31.13 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: But isn't it the job of patents to quantify just that? How else does an inventor make their living? |
| 03:31.41 | *** join/#wowi-lounge slouken (n=Sam@ip68-5-42-243.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 03:31.47 | GenNMX|Thrae | I agree that it's wrong for an inventor to say "I patented this invention, so no one can invent something like this and market it without giving me royalities" |
| 03:31.51 | slouken | So, does it work, does it work? |
| 03:31.51 | Cairenn | yes, the patch has been pushed, slouken |
| 03:32.02 | Cairenn | we don't know, the servers aren't back up yet |
| 03:32.17 | slouken | Does it still block other addons if you enable MovePad? |
| 03:32.17 | slouken | Okay |
| 03:32.34 | slouken | (3 hours later...) |
| 03:32.53 | Legorol | hi slouken |
| 03:33.17 | Iriel | GenNMX|Thrae : As long as there's an allowance for independent invention, that's somewhat okay. |
| 03:33.23 | Iriel | It's from my favorite tune on the soundtrack |
| 03:33.25 | ckknight | GenNMX|Thrae, how is it wrong? he invented it first and didn't keep it a trade secret |
| 03:33.27 | Iriel | "A Call to Arms" |
| 03:33.29 | Legorol | hm, i haven't seen slouken this excited before.. |
| 03:34.01 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Exactly. |
| 03:34.22 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: Like Iriel said, there can be different ways to get to the same result. |
| 03:34.46 | GenNMX|Thrae | I feel you shouldn't be able to patent the result (the current mechanism), but the way you got to the result. |
| 03:35.17 | GenNMX|Thrae | That way it allows for people to invent the same thing, but in different ways. |
| 03:35.20 | ckknight | if there were no patents, everything would be a trade secret |
| 03:35.24 | ckknight | that's the whole point of patents |
| 03:35.30 | Iriel | I suspect that'd be a patent inspection headache |
| 03:35.51 | Iriel | I do agree that patents and trade secrets are used a bit too interchangably |
| 03:36.18 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: I'm pretty sure the point of patents is to try and disallow someone from reverse-engineering a product by any means and "clone" it. |
| 03:36.20 | ckknight | patents prevent trade secrets |
| 03:36.39 | Iriel | But sadly copyright and patents are being used for preservation of monopoly, or extortion by generalization |
| 03:36.39 | ckknight | GenNMX|Thrae that is one result of having patents |
| 03:36.53 | Legorol | hm, no significant UI code changes, only the UI.xsd validation issues fixed, so it seems |
| 03:37.01 | Iriel | The whole notion of 'Intellectual Property Portfolios' makes my skin crawl |
| 03:37.08 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: The patent is the only legal recourse against reverse-engineering. |
| 03:37.15 | ckknight | yea, I know |
| 03:37.22 | ckknight | I wasn't talking just about software, though |
| 03:37.32 | ckknight | typically software patents don't prevent trade secrets |
| 03:37.35 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: NTP vs RIM (Blackberry case) is the one freshest in my mind. |
| 03:37.49 | ckknight | as someone on the outside could see the result and try to make it themselves rather easily |
| 03:38.10 | ckknight | but if you just saw a cotton gin, how would you know how to make one yourself without schematics? |
| 03:38.14 | GenNMX|Thrae | After RIM sued Everyone It Could about Blackberry technology, NTP sued RIM about Wireless Email technology. |
| 03:38.21 | Iriel | I saw one over christmas! |
| 03:38.22 | Iriel | And no. |
| 03:38.23 | Iriel | I couldn't. |
| 03:38.50 | Iriel | Ok, time for me to drive home |
| 03:38.57 | Cairenn | safe drive Iriel |
| 03:39.02 | GenNMX|Thrae | NTP is a company that holds one patent. The owner patented the technology before RIM, but never did anything with it. |
| 03:39.07 | ckknight | cya later, Iriel |
| 03:39.12 | Iriel | Write some free software today! Support the world through free ideas 8-) |
| 03:39.21 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Remember to drive on the correct side of the road! |
| 03:39.23 | Iriel | Apparently NTP was playing a bit of a game of legal chicken |
| 03:39.36 | ckknight | Iriel, I can't feed my family with software |
| 03:39.48 | Iriel | I believe their patents were slowly being rejected during re-review and challenge |
| 03:39.56 | Iriel | But I dont know all the details |
| 03:40.05 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: You mean you can't feed your family with FREE software. Otherwise, I know a lot of people that would disagree with that statement ;) |
| 03:40.14 | Iriel | that was just the last thing I recall from a fairly deep analysis on NPR |
| 03:40.16 | ckknight | I know |
| 03:40.33 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Well, the final detail is that RIM settled out of court for $642 million with NTP. |
| 03:40.40 | Iriel | Actually, you CAN feed your family with FREE software, if you're willing to offer paid support. |
| 03:40.48 | GenNMX|Thrae | The cases on the RIM vs NTP matter were closed there. |
| 03:41.03 | Iriel | Yeah, well, RIM had some trust issues from their clients, so it was their best bet |
| 03:41.10 | ckknight | Iriel, you'd have to make something a lot of people use to make anything off support |
| 03:41.16 | Iriel | That's the problem with the legal system, you end up broke if you're sued, even if you win. |
| 03:41.27 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Right, the biggest issue being injunctions preventing them from rolling out newer models |
| 03:41.28 | Iriel | ckknight You dont have to just support your own software 8-) |
| 03:41.35 | Iriel | ckknight though that's much easier |
| 03:41.41 | ckknight | lol |
| 03:41.44 | ckknight | yea |
| 03:41.59 | Iriel | Anyway, i'm really leaving now! |
| 03:42.03 | Iriel | back later perhaps |
| 03:42.07 | GenNMX|Thrae | Iriel: Like the woman sued by the RIAA even though she didn't own a computer. She predicts she'll need $10,000 a month in legal fees. |
| 03:42.15 | Cairenn | only perhaps? :( |
| 03:42.21 | Legorol | Iriel: you dont' want to miss the test realm update ;-) |
| 03:42.27 | Iriel | Well, "probably" not "perhaps" |
| 03:42.34 | Iriel | I have some email server work to do when I get home |
| 03:42.42 | Legorol | have fun! |
| 03:42.52 | Iriel | I'm sure it'll be a joy |
| 03:43.05 | Iriel | If I can do it without looping any of my domains i'll be happy |
| 03:43.50 | ckknight | same |
| 03:43.54 | Legorol | maybe i should check on my mailbox on the live realm? |
| 03:43.58 | ckknight | I'm gonna do something useful: watch cartoons |
| 03:44.02 | Legorol | nah, i'm sure it's full of "auction expired" messages |
| 03:44.13 | Legorol | hm, good idea, i think i'll go watch 24 |
| 03:44.15 | Cairenn | cartoons are good |
| 03:44.45 | GenNMX|Thrae | japanese cartoons > american cartoons |
| 03:45.05 | Legorol | the japanese anime is not cartoon |
| 03:45.09 | Legorol | cartoon is for kiddies |
| 03:45.17 | Legorol | anime is a style of film making that is done by drawing |
| 03:45.30 | GenNMX|Thrae | Anime == Japanese Cartoons, it's their style of cartoons. |
| 03:45.53 | Legorol | ok, in my personal opinion, the word "cartoon" very strongly carries a meaning that it's primarily oriented towards children |
| 03:46.07 | Legorol | whereas japanese anime does no such thing, at least a lof of them are for adults/older teenagers |
| 03:46.08 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: So does the word "anime" to most people. |
| 03:46.24 | Legorol | that's because of a misconception in western society about what "anime" is |
| 03:46.35 | Legorol | and because you see a lot of "anime" on TV that is for children |
| 03:46.41 | GenNMX|Thrae | Else, why would it be marketed mostly to children/young teenagers? |
| 03:46.51 | Legorol | it's only a subclass of anime that is marketed for children |
| 03:46.55 | Legorol | like Pokemon and the likes |
| 03:47.02 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: No, you see a lot of "anime" that was *edited* specifically for children |
| 03:47.03 | Legorol | but anime is a genre that is far wider than that |
| 03:47.13 | Legorol | ah yeah that as well |
| 03:47.28 | Legorol | i don't like it when they do that, they take perfectly good anime and cut it so it's suitable for children |
| 03:47.34 | Legorol | it just shows the general misconception |
| 03:47.41 | GenNMX|Thrae | I would say Pokemon is the only anime on TV right now that really IS for children, the rest have "adult themes" that were edited out and stories shifted around |
| 03:47.42 | Legorol | not all anime is automatically for children... |
| 03:47.54 | Legorol | yeah |
| 03:48.25 | Legorol | by the way, Tom and Jerry is one of the most violent cartoons i have seen |
| 03:48.30 | Legorol | i can't beleive we watched it as kids :-) |
| 03:48.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | However, I think it's probably better to say "Japanese cartoons" because the age margin for American Cartoons is just as wide as the age margin for Japanese Animation in Japan |
| 03:49.01 | Tain | I'm waiting for the day they edit down Urotsukidoji and it winds up on Adult Swim. |
| 03:49.01 | Legorol | mmm, i would contend that american cartoons are primarly written for children |
| 03:49.06 | Legorol | yet lot of adults watch them and enjoy them |
| 03:49.20 | Legorol | whereas japanese anime is primarily written for teenagers and a lot specifically for adults |
| 03:49.30 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: What about superhero cartoons? |
| 03:49.44 | Legorol | ok true |
| 03:49.45 | Tain | I'd argue that American cartoons were only focused at children since around the 80s. Go watch older cartoons and see how much adult content you see. |
| 03:50.00 | Legorol | i bow to thee arguments |
| 03:50.18 | Tain | The Smurfs ruined it for everyone! |
| 03:50.24 | Legorol | for me at least, the words cartoon and anime carry different meanings |
| 03:50.30 | Legorol | that's all |
| 03:50.40 | Legorol | smurfs <3 |
| 03:50.54 | GenNMX|Thrae | Tain: Yeah, wasn't the 80s when a censorship council was reborn for movies and TV? |
| 03:50.57 | Legorol | that's one thing i wouldn't want to watch now that i've grown up though |
| 03:51.00 | Legorol | it was fun as a child |
| 03:51.37 | GenNMX|Thrae | Really, look at an old Richard Pryor movie -- lots of the stuff he says and does in those old movies we wouldn't dream of anything but an "R" rated movie of today. |
| 03:51.50 | Legorol | what is the "R" rating?# |
| 03:51.59 | Legorol | i am not familiar with American rating system |
| 03:52.17 | Tain | No one under the age of 18 without an adult accompaniying. |
| 03:52.24 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: "Restricted", Not Intended For Teenagers 17 or Under |
| 03:52.53 | GenNMX|Thrae | There's one above it, NC17, which is never used anymore (no one under 17 allowed) |
| 03:53.36 | Legorol | so you can watch R if your parent is with you? |
| 03:53.45 | Cairenn | Legorol: yes |
| 03:53.46 | Tain | NC17 is used, there just aren't many movies that get that rating and expect to be in general theaters. |
| 03:53.52 | Legorol | that's quite liberal |
| 03:54.07 | Legorol | in the UK they wouldn't let you into an 18+ movie, full stop |
| 03:54.10 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Wobin_ (n=wob@221.221.20.22) |
| 03:54.21 | Legorol | and tbh, i think it's better this way |
| 03:54.32 | Cairenn | actually, let me amend that |
| 03:55.00 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: In the US, the "evil things" in movies are prioritized this way: Nudity > Gore > Bad Language > Violence |
| 03:55.32 | Legorol | hm, aren't there classes of these things? |
| 03:55.33 | Cairenn | in *Canada* you can view R rated if you are over ... 12? I think it is, and with a responsible adult, and you can view A rated (Adult) at any age, as long as you are with a responsible adult |
| 03:55.42 | Legorol | there is violence that is worse than some minor nudity |
| 03:56.24 | Tain | Nudity is just the worst possible thing ever. |
| 03:56.34 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: Lord Of The Rings and the Star Wars series are PG-13 (Parental Guidance *suggested* for 13 and under) |
| 03:56.46 | GenNMX|Thrae | Wait |
| 03:56.56 | GenNMX|Thrae | Sorry, PG13 is typically parental guidance required |
| 03:57.03 | GenNMX|Thrae | PG is parental guidance suggested |
| 03:57.12 | Legorol | what is parental guidance? |
| 03:57.16 | Legorol | that you need a parent with you? |
| 03:57.19 | GenNMX|Thrae | Legorol: Right |
| 03:57.28 | Cairenn | supposedly they won't let you in without a parent |
| 03:57.32 | Cairenn | *supposedly* |
| 03:57.41 | Tain | A normal PG movie you don't need a parent. PG13 you do if you're under 13. |
| 03:57.46 | GenNMX|Thrae | So, the last Star Wars movie, where someone gets horribly mutilated, is PG13 |
| 03:57.59 | Legorol | all right, can someone let me know when the test realms are up? i am going to give up trying.. |
| 03:58.03 | Legorol | i'd really appreciate it :-) |
| 03:58.20 | Legorol | i can offer cookies and hugs in return, your free choosing |
| 03:58.30 | GenNMX|Thrae | If there was 1-3 "shit" or "crap" or "fuck" in that movie, it would become R |
| 03:58.50 | ckknight | you can say shit once without it being R |
| 03:59.06 | GenNMX|Thrae | Or, if the queen of Naboo showed a little boob for a split-second, it would also be R |
| 03:59.17 | Wobin_ | And that really says it all, doesn't it, ckknight? =) |
| 03:59.19 | GenNMX|Thrae | But that movie wasn't even at the threshold for violence |
| 03:59.20 | ckknight | boobtastic |
| 03:59.31 | Tain | You can get away with one shit. |
| 03:59.33 | Tain | heh |
| 03:59.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | ckknight: Hence why I said 1-3 |
| 04:00.04 | ckknight | you said that if you said it 1-3 times, it would become R |
| 04:00.08 | Wobin_ | "Oh no, he was referring to the bodily function, IT DOESN'T COUNT! So Ner!" |
| 04:00.38 | GenNMX|Thrae | I just want to know if I am the only one that thinks the movie ratings promote sexually repressed, extremely violent teenagers? |
| 04:00.51 | Wobin_ | It's the American Way? |
| 04:01.02 | GenNMX|Thrae | Since when has violence become BETTER then sex? |
| 04:01.07 | Wobin_ | It's the American Way? |
| 04:01.20 | ckknight | I like to mix violence and sex |
| 04:01.32 | Wobin_ | We can't have the children looking at sex. |
| 04:01.36 | Wobin_ | It might lead to DANCING |
| 04:02.57 | GenNMX|Thrae | Y'know, I look at how screwed up the world is, and in most cases, I see parents and communities that aren't parenting their children properly. |
| 04:03.26 | Wobin_ | That is unfortunately the current state of affairs |
| 04:03.49 | Wobin_ | Quite a number of parents just aren't ... qualified, I guess to raise children |
| 04:03.54 | GenNMX|Thrae | These censorships, in my mind, just make things worse. There's a great deal of evidence that each child evolves differently, and too much of one stimulas while deprevation of another can seriously screw some up. |
| 04:04.32 | GenNMX|Thrae | I say lay it all out there and let the parents and communities (including schools) teach the children what's what. |
| 04:05.13 | GenNMX|Thrae | Ideally it would just be the parents, but then we're back to the fact that not all parents are educated enough to deal with all issues. |
| 04:06.21 | Wobin_ | I would suggest an exam before people being allowed to populate, but I have no idea what should be on that exam =P |
| 04:06.48 | GenNMX|Thrae | Wobin_: I'd fail, I can't take tests. |
| 04:07.32 | GenNMX|Thrae | I'm not good under pressure, but I manage on everything except important tests in specific. |
| 04:07.52 | GenNMX|Thrae | I made it up in homework, thankfully. |
| 04:08.32 | Wobin_ | If I were writing the exam, I'd pretty much have the 'common sense' questions though =P |
| 04:08.59 | Wobin_ | ie, any intelligent person with enough common sense would be able to answer the questions without any form of prompting |
| 04:10.01 | GenNMX|Thrae | I'd still score lower then I should -- the rational part of my brain starts to shut down on tests. |
| 04:10.10 | GenNMX|Thrae | Heavy medication helps. |
| 04:10.17 | GenNMX|Thrae | Especially Horse Tranquilizers. |
| 04:10.27 | GenNMX|Thrae | No, wait...Elephant Tranquilizers. |
| 04:10.38 | Wobin_ | Rhino tranqs? |
| 04:10.46 | Wobin_ | Whale tranqs? |
| 04:10.55 | GenNMX|Thrae | Ooo, Whale would be even better. |
| 04:11.46 | GenNMX|Thrae | I would have no chance of arithmic distress due to the tranquilizers, since my heart rate increases about 250%. |
| 04:12.06 | GenNMX|Thrae | ...while taking tests, that is. |
| 04:16.32 | *** join/#wowi-lounge fringey (n=52867752@c-24-11-171-1.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 04:19.42 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Miravlix (i=dragon@0x3e42aafc.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 04:20.42 | slouken | Test realm is up... |
| 04:21.03 | slouken | Cairenn, how is MovePad doing? |
| 04:21.15 | Cairenn | haven't checked it yet |
| 04:21.42 | slouken | (i.e. does it still blame other addons which are loaded before it?) |
| 04:23.02 | Cairenn | Ah ha, here's the quote I was looking for ... "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." |
| 04:23.36 | slouken | Mark Twain |
| 04:23.40 | slouken | Plato |
| 04:24.19 | Cairenn | older |
| 04:24.21 | Cairenn | Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC |
| 04:24.26 | slouken | lol |
| 04:24.46 | slouken | bbl |
| 04:24.49 | Cairenn | you missed the conversation that was going on that led to me searching for it |
| 04:24.52 | Cairenn | later |
| 04:26.04 | Cairenn | A 20-year plan for the Improvement of English Spelling |
| 04:26.04 | Cairenn | by Mark TwainFor example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasi |
| 04:26.21 | Cairenn | that one always makes me chuckle |
| 04:29.27 | MentalPower | hehe |
| 04:29.49 | MentalPower | as is custom for me at this time, gnight folks |
| 04:29.58 | Cairenn | night MentalPower, sweet dreams |
| 04:30.08 | MentalPower | thanks Cair |
| 04:30.13 | Cairenn | :) |
| 04:30.18 | Corrodias | yeah, 'ni |
| 04:31.13 | Miravlix | No S? |
| 04:31.22 | Miravlix | Baah then I can't write my name anymore. |
| 04:33.44 | Miravlix | You going to make me formaly known as prince. |
| 04:33.51 | Miravlix | Oh wait, no c either |
| 04:34.03 | Wobin_ | <indescribablesymbol> |
| 04:34.10 | Miravlix | formaly knon as prin |
| 04:34.11 | Cairenn | still s |
| 04:34.14 | Cairenn | no c |
| 04:39.32 | Miravlix | Aah yes, C replaced with k or s |
| 04:39.45 | Miravlix | Okay Sairenn |
| 04:39.55 | ckknight | cut off at "well abolish "y" replasi" |
| 04:40.19 | Cairenn | well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now ja |
| 04:40.33 | ckknight | and "x" -- bai now ja |
| 04:40.52 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:41.31 | Miravlix | I thought we removed X a while ago |
| 04:42.03 | Cairenn | have you guys never seen that before? |
| 04:42.08 | ckknight | I have |
| 04:42.11 | ckknight | it's pretty neat |
| 04:43.19 | ckknight | frankly, I'm for language reform |
| 04:43.35 | ckknight | as it stands, we're double plus ungood |
| 04:44.27 | Cairenn | that one amuses me, but I absolutely love the first quote I pasted |
| 04:44.37 | Tain | I personally see that as a need for education reform more than language reform. |
| 04:45.23 | Tain | But more importantly I see it as a need for sleep. Goodnight. |
| 04:45.31 | Cairenn | night Tain, sweet dreams |
| 04:45.34 | ckknight | cya |
| 04:45.38 | slouken | night Tain |
| 04:48.37 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust103.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) |
| 04:48.44 | Cairenn | lego, servers are up |
| 04:48.57 | ckknight | lego? |
| 04:49.02 | Legorol | weee, thanks |
| 04:49.10 | Cairenn | and slouken is whimpering because he wants to find out if movepad is fixed |
| 04:49.24 | Cairenn | but I wasn't having any problems with it, so I can't test for him :p |
| 04:50.05 | Cairenn | ckknight: Lego(rol) |
| 04:50.56 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Iriel (n=daniel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 04:51.05 | Cairenn | rofl, and there's Iriel back, too |
| 04:51.11 | Cairenn | Iriel, test servers are back up |
| 04:51.44 | Legorol | hi Iriel |
| 04:51.51 | Legorol | we can't reassign functions! wooo |
| 04:52.01 | Legorol | MovePad is fixed |
| 04:52.13 | Legorol | but i just logged in, maybe we can break it again :-) |
| 04:52.42 | Iriel | Hm, we can't reassign ANY functions? or just the chosen few? |
| 04:53.27 | Legorol | don't know yet.. just about to start playing around |
| 04:53.47 | Iriel | damn, forgot to load devtools. |
| 04:54.04 | Cairenn | whaaaat? |
| 04:54.21 | Cairenn | you were so whimpering, stop poking me :p |
| 04:54.31 | Iriel | slouken : I guess the SubvertB fix didn't make it into this build |
| 04:54.32 | Legorol | slouken, so far so good ;-) |
| 04:55.08 | Legorol | SubvertB O.o |
| 04:55.20 | slouken | Iriel, no, that's next build. |
| 04:55.27 | Legorol | Iriel, you tease |
| 04:55.30 | Iriel | ok, I wont poke there then |
| 04:56.27 | slouken | I'm not especially worried, that fix was pretty simple. |
| 04:56.45 | slouken | Tinkering around in Lua... that's scary. :) |
| 04:58.44 | Iriel | Hm, so the protected functions check the name by which they're called now? |
| 04:58.59 | Iriel | Or is this something infinitely more devious |
| 04:59.07 | slouken | oo |
| 05:00.15 | Iriel | Hm, more devious, interesting |
| 05:00.28 | Iriel | CheeseBurger() does MoveForwardStart just fine |
| 05:00.33 | slouken | :) |
| 05:00.47 | slouken | huh? |
| 05:01.16 | Iriel | (In the signed environment, that is) |
| 05:01.38 | slouken | How did you get CheeseBurger in the signed environment? |
| 05:01.45 | Cairenn | you know, I think Tain was correct in his statement ... "Tain: I think slouken is getting used to having a bunch of people sitting in an irc channel at his beck and call. ;)" |
| 05:01.52 | Iriel | through the hole you're not worried about that isn't fixed on test yet 8-) |
| 05:01.58 | slouken | Oh, right. |
| 05:02.24 | Iriel | It's a fertile source of more interesting exploration techniques |
| 05:02.36 | Cairenn | indeed |
| 05:02.43 | slouken | You guys spoil me. It's not everyone who has talented interested folks helping test new features. :) |
| 05:02.56 | Iriel | You spoil us in return |
| 05:03.04 | Osagasu | and interesting too. so many folks are so boring |
| 05:03.04 | slouken | My pleasure. :) |
| 05:03.05 | Cairenn | (by and large, this channel has turned out exactly as I envisioned when I made it) |
| 05:03.21 | Iriel | It's a symbiotic relationship, just dont talk abotu Midichlorians and we'll be fine |
| 05:03.29 | Cairenn | lol |
| 05:03.32 | slouken | lol |
| 05:03.34 | ckknight | we're you peeved about an hour ago? |
| 05:03.48 | slouken | who? |
| 05:03.57 | ckknight | Cairenn |
| 05:03.59 | ckknight | meh |
| 05:04.16 | Legorol | ok, just had to afk for a sec, back now |
| 05:04.26 | Cairenn | naw, I said I was slightly annoyed by a couple statements that had been made |
| 05:04.28 | Legorol | slouken, i don't know how you fixed the ones i sent you, but i'm going to find out :D |
| 05:04.41 | Cairenn | Osagasu: you've found something new? |
| 05:05.11 | Legorol | oh, btw, i will (ab)use this opportunity: |
| 05:05.29 | Legorol | slouken, is it possible (in theory) to get a tooltip:GetOwner() method in some patch in the future? |
| 05:05.38 | Legorol | i can request this in the 1.11 thread or whatever if you like ;-) |
| 05:05.58 | slouken | go ahead |
| 05:06.00 | Iriel | That's a good point, can I create a 1.11 thread yet? Even though I dont think we have much to put in it? |
| 05:06.11 | slouken | nope, wait until 1.10 is out |
| 05:06.12 | Osagasu | Nah, I was just replying to Iriel's comment on Midichloians. |
| 05:06.30 | Iriel | Alright -- lego, can you hang onto that until such time as the thread appears, then post it? Or do you want me to make a note? |
| 05:07.07 | Iriel | nevermind, I just created my template file and added it 8-) |
| 05:07.34 | Legorol | i am happy to put in a reminder |
| 05:07.38 | Legorol | when the thread appears |
| 05:07.46 | Iriel | if I forget, please do |
| 05:07.57 | Legorol | i'm quite amazed at how function redirect doesn't work anymore |
| 05:08.14 | Iriel | It works if you're in signed code |
| 05:08.19 | Iriel | Which is more impressive to me |
| 05:08.24 | Legorol | hm, why am i not surprised.. |
| 05:08.29 | Legorol | means Blizz code can redirect |
| 05:08.42 | ckknight | I wish the whole CreateFrame dealy had inheritance, it wasn't fun to implement UIDropDownMenuTemplate manually, and the way I did it isn't future-proof at all |
| 05:08.47 | Legorol | my guess would be tampering with rawset |
| 05:09.04 | Legorol | and/or the internal implementation of setting a global |
| 05:09.10 | slouken | MovePad doesn't block addons anymore? |
| 05:09.17 | Legorol | it doesn't |
| 05:09.20 | Legorol | as far as i can tell |
| 05:09.34 | Legorol | i tried with the usual suspects, i am sure Iriel will try too |
| 05:09.41 | slouken | good. I was worried about that, since I wasn't entirely sure why it was. I think I had fixed that bug by the time it was reported. |
| 05:10.11 | slouken | BTW, add a note why you want GetOwner |
| 05:10.56 | Osagasu | Oh, I have officially seen overkill. A Wrath Warrior with a Crusader Thunderfury and Unstoppable Force with a Thorium Spike. >.< |
| 05:11.04 | Iriel | ckknight : Can you progamatically copy an existing one? |
| 05:11.10 | Shadowd | nice Osagasu |
| 05:11.37 | Shadowd | btw, twin emps suck. |
| 05:12.06 | Legorol | slouken: sure. It's very simple: if the GameTooltip appears, i'd like to know *why* it appeared. If I know the Owner, I know if it was due to an inventory item, or bag item, etc. |
| 05:12.13 | Legorol | but i will expand on this when posting about it |
| 05:12.16 | slouken | sure |
| 05:12.24 | Osagasu | It was so beautiful I wanted to cry. |
| 05:12.38 | Legorol | Iriel: yup, redirect works from signed code |
| 05:12.45 | Legorol | Which means that what I was trying also worked :D |
| 05:13.13 | ckknight | Iriel, no, as it's virtual |
| 05:13.22 | Iriel | ckknight : yes, but there are instances of it |
| 05:13.26 | Iriel | ckknight : Can you copy an instance |
| 05:13.40 | ckknight | theoretically, but it seems so dirty |
| 05:14.00 | *** join/#wowi-lounge ForgottenLords (n=Forgotte@059.216-123-195-0.interbaun.com) |
| 05:14.54 | slouken | BTW, Iriel, you can let people know about SubvertB, if they're helping out here. |
| 05:15.20 | Iriel | I let lego know about it (well, I didn't exactly, I just gave him a couple of hints) once you said you'd fixed it 8-) |
| 05:16.15 | Legorol | yeah, Iriel was a mean tease.. he wouldn't tell how, so i had to figure it out based on his hints :-) |
| 05:16.20 | Iriel | Nice, the protection isn't just global scope either |
| 05:16.27 | Iriel | another point for the pirate |
| 05:16.41 | Legorol | i bet it's rawset.. |
| 05:16.51 | Iriel | but rawset needs somewhere to PUT its result |
| 05:17.07 | Iriel | but maybe I didn't think about that hard enough |
| 05:17.20 | Legorol | yeah but an assignment like this: Function = Protected; |
| 05:17.24 | Osagasu | err, my bad. it was an *immovable object* |
| 05:17.26 | Legorol | is technically setting a member of the global environ |
| 05:17.29 | Osagasu | I get the two mixed up |
| 05:17.49 | Iriel | yes, btu it works on objects too |
| 05:18.01 | Legorol | what do you mean? |
| 05:18.10 | Iriel | this.CheeseBurger = MoveForwardStart; |
| 05:18.15 | Iriel | this.CheeseBurger() |
| 05:18.18 | Iriel | works, from protected scope |
| 05:18.31 | Legorol | how do you plan to test that in non-protected scope? |
| 05:18.39 | Iriel | but if I assign this.HamBurger() at load, and re-assign during non-protected, it doesn't work |
| 05:18.57 | Legorol | what are you reassigning it to though? |
| 05:19.01 | Legorol | are you reassigning it to a global? |
| 05:19.07 | slouken | It's fun watching you guys think. :) |
| 05:19.11 | Legorol | hehe |
| 05:19.18 | Legorol | i bet you have a double-grin on |
| 05:19.33 | Iriel | UIParentBobButton.CheeseBurger = UIParentBobButton.HamBurger |
| 05:19.50 | Legorol | stop for a sec with your burgers |
| 05:19.52 | Legorol | which is which? |
| 05:19.53 | ckknight | why is the Burger part capitalized? |
| 05:19.57 | Iriel | which I'll note makes me unsure if I got my simulated xml load exactly right |
| 05:19.58 | Legorol | ham is protected, and cheese is not, right? |
| 05:19.59 | Iriel | ckknight : why not? |
| 05:20.11 | Iriel | Legorol : ham is the protected one, cheese is what the protected function calls |
| 05:20.23 | ckknight | Hamburgers come from Hamburg, they aren't made of Ham |
| 05:20.48 | Legorol | but then you are using rawset |
| 05:20.56 | Legorol | when you do the assignment UIParentBobButton.CheeseBurger = UIParentBobButton.HamBurger |
| 05:21.13 | Iriel | I know, there's no way around that |
| 05:21.32 | Legorol | ok i think i might have gotten confused here a bit |
| 05:21.44 | Legorol | in non-protected code, this doesn't work: PlayerFrame_OnClick = MoveForwardStart; |
| 05:21.47 | Iriel | I dont really care if it's rawset or not... I'm convinced it's that, or a lower level function doing the same |
| 05:21.59 | Iriel | My question is WHERE is it storing the information |
| 05:22.04 | Iriel | How is it representing the badness |
| 05:22.05 | Legorol | yeah |
| 05:22.13 | Legorol | good question |
| 05:22.30 | Legorol | wait a sec.. |
| 05:22.38 | Legorol | you had this example: UIParentBobButton.CheeseBurger = UIParentBobButton.HamBurger |
| 05:22.51 | Legorol | but afaik, blizz code doesn't call table elements |
| 05:22.58 | Legorol | so how are you trying to get CheeseBurger to be called? |
| 05:23.00 | Iriel | yeah, but mine does |
| 05:23.08 | Iriel | I put this.CheeseBurger() in my code |
| 05:23.15 | Legorol | OnLoad, or later? |
| 05:23.28 | Iriel | It's in an OnClick |
| 05:23.31 | Legorol | right |
| 05:23.42 | Iriel | SubvertB is a unidirectional monotonic MovePad |
| 05:23.48 | Iriel | i.e. one button, forward/stop |
| 05:24.19 | Legorol | right |
| 05:24.40 | Legorol | so you are saying that you do both reassignment and call from signed code |
| 05:24.42 | Legorol | yet it doesn't work.. |
| 05:25.08 | Iriel | If I do reassignment and call from signed code, it works |
| 05:25.21 | Iriel | if on the other hand, I do the assignment in UNsigned code, and the call in signed code, it doesn't work |
| 05:25.32 | Legorol | right |
| 05:25.36 | Cairenn | actually, that reminds me ... how do you turn using it? it only goes forward/backward/strafe left/strafe right/jump |
| 05:25.47 | Iriel | You can turn with the mouse already |
| 05:26.09 | Iriel | (That was my answer to that question when I asked it myself yesterday while playing with MovePad, anyway) |
| 05:26.17 | Legorol | so, the conclusion is, if i understand correctly: tainted code taints the assignment |
| 05:26.23 | Legorol | how exactly it does that, we don't know |
| 05:26.24 | Iriel | Legorol : yes |
| 05:26.28 | Iriel | Legorol : yes |
| 05:26.33 | Iriel | But I have some ides |
| 05:26.41 | Legorol | ok, what if you try a file local variable? |
| 05:26.43 | Legorol | not a table |
| 05:26.45 | Legorol | nor a global |
| 05:26.51 | Legorol | so that it doesn't go through table access |
| 05:27.01 | Legorol | assign to the file local variable from unsigned code |
| 05:27.05 | Cairenn | aye, but wouldn't it still make sense to put the ability to turn on it as well, it would follow logically ... |
| 05:27.17 | Legorol | i agree with Cairenn |
| 05:27.23 | Cairenn | (yes, I'm putting in my 2c on a slightly different tangent) |
| 05:27.26 | slouken | Cair, I tried that and realized that it was hard to control.. the turn rate is too high |
| 05:27.37 | Iriel | My guess is it's all in typedef union { GCObject *gc, void *p, lua_Number n; int b; } Value |
| 05:27.43 | Cairenn | okay |
| 05:27.53 | Cairenn | then there is a reason, good enough |
| 05:27.56 | Legorol | no fair, i don't know any Lua internals ;-) |
| 05:27.57 | slouken | :) |
| 05:27.58 | Iriel | Or the new wow version of the same |
| 05:28.09 | ckknight | anybody know how to convert a localized class e.g. "Hexenmeister" to english e.g. "WARLOCK"? |
| 05:28.23 | Iriel | ckknight : Look it up on a wiki or something? |
| 05:28.25 | cladhaire | ckknight: Just take the second return from UnitClass() |
| 05:28.39 | ckknight | no, cladhaire, all I have is the localized one |
| 05:28.47 | cladhaire | hehe. |
| 05:28.55 | cladhaire | have someone look it up on a german client? =) |
| 05:30.21 | ckknight | there's no easier way? |
| 05:30.43 | cladhaire | there's no mappings other than what we've provided from localization =/ |
| 05:30.53 | ckknight | darn |
| 05:31.00 | Cairenn | ckknight: look on the appropriate Blizz EU site |
| 05:31.16 | Iriel | I wonder if it's rawset at all |
| 05:31.20 | Cairenn | :p |
| 05:31.25 | ckknight | I know I can look it up |
| 05:31.29 | Cairenn | ;) |
| 05:31.38 | ckknight | GetBattlefieldScore(index) returns class, but it's the localized one |
| 05:32.20 | Legorol | wow, interesting |
| 05:32.35 | Cairenn | Legorol: ? |
| 05:32.41 | Legorol | i'm going to pastebin it, sec |
| 05:32.54 | Legorol | http://wow.pastebin.com/606902 |
| 05:33.08 | cladhaire | ckknight: You could do a quick Name > UnitID translation and then UnitClass to get the localized version |
| 05:33.12 | Legorol | ok, so, using SubvertB, OnLoad I call StoreFunction(MoveForwardStart); |
| 05:33.26 | Legorol | and then OnClick, I call ExecuteProcedure(); |
| 05:33.37 | Iriel | That should work |
| 05:33.42 | Legorol | but it doesn't |
| 05:33.45 | Legorol | gives blocked message |
| 05:34.03 | Legorol | the bit i pastebined is in a .lua file that is loaded before my virtual frame |
| 05:34.13 | Iriel | OH |
| 05:34.14 | Iriel | right |
| 05:34.17 | Iriel | that wont work then |
| 05:34.20 | Iriel | those functions are tainted |
| 05:34.28 | Legorol | right |
| 05:34.35 | Legorol | makes sense.. |
| 05:35.06 | Legorol | it's a pity there is no concept of "XML-local" variable |
| 05:35.17 | Legorol | one whose scope is the event handlers in an XML |
| 05:35.20 | Iriel | there is, just not in any reachable scope |
| 05:35.39 | Legorol | well you have local variables that is local to a handler |
| 05:35.55 | Legorol | how would you declare a variable to be visible from a set of handlers, but nowhere else? |
| 05:36.18 | Iriel | Make the handlers in OnLoad and SetScript them |
| 05:36.23 | Iriel | use upvalues from the closures |
| 05:36.28 | Legorol | ah, neat |
| 05:36.39 | Legorol | i keep forgetting about SetScript :D |
| 05:37.29 | Iriel | Man, this taint flag sure is sticky |
| 05:38.05 | Legorol | Iriel, how did you get a clickable button that is not tied to the AH frame? |
| 05:38.22 | Iriel | Legorol : magic? |
| 05:38.24 | Legorol | for now, i just have set handlers to the close button, but that's inconvenient because i have to open the AH frame first :D |
| 05:38.33 | Legorol | ok, so you want me to figure it out myself, fine! |
| 05:38.41 | Iriel | Nested frames, with explicit parents |
| 05:39.04 | Legorol | right |
| 05:39.30 | Iriel | Technically SubvertB's current implementation breaks the AH a bit, but only because I was lazy |
| 05:40.21 | Iriel | I wish lua errors in XML snippets got reported as a UI error |
| 05:40.31 | Iriel | instead of the old favorite 'Attempt to call a nil value' |
| 05:40.52 | Iriel | slouken needs to check the return value on loadstring 8-) |
| 05:42.53 | ckknight | okay, where could I get a list of strings for the classes with tha appropriate \### encoding things in them? |
| 05:43.21 | Legorol | why is the OnLoad handler of UIPanelCloseButton getting executed twice, i wonder.. |
| 05:43.34 | Iriel | Are there 2 of them? |
| 05:43.40 | Iriel | Printout this:GetName() in your OnLoad |
| 05:43.41 | Iriel | 8-) |
| 05:43.51 | Iriel | Okay, so here's my theory based on a few tests |
| 05:44.15 | Iriel | There's now a bit at the lua_TObject level that says if the object is tainted |
| 05:44.30 | Iriel | any time a value is returned to tainted code, it's set |
| 05:44.41 | Iriel | the bit is preserved in tables, assignments, etc |
| 05:44.47 | Iriel | but otherwise is invisible to us (the users) |
| 05:45.07 | Iriel | a tainted and untainted version of the same value appear identical in code |
| 05:46.22 | Legorol | unfortunately i dont' know enough about Lua internals to understand that :( but i take your word for it |
| 05:46.39 | Legorol | one of these days, i really should have a look at Lua's source :-) |
| 05:46.42 | Iriel | lua_TObject is a struct with 2 values in it |
| 05:46.50 | ckknight | nvm, found one |
| 05:46.56 | Iriel | one is the type of the value (an int, which indicates if it's a function, string, table, etc) |
| 05:47.07 | Iriel | the other is the union I listed before, which can contain any single valid lua value |
| 05:47.55 | Legorol | right |
| 05:50.24 | Iriel | That's the only place I can think of to put this information |
| 05:50.27 | Iriel | the function doesn't change |
| 05:50.38 | Iriel | It's not table related (tainting transfers into locals) |
| 05:50.51 | Legorol | ahh, AuctionFrame and AuctionDressUpFrame both use the close button |
| 05:50.55 | Legorol | i have to find another virtual frame |
| 05:51.12 | Iriel | and it's not name based |
| 05:51.17 | Legorol | how did you test that tainting transfers into locals? |
| 05:51.29 | Iriel | upvalues and some hastily created local methods on my object |
| 05:51.36 | Legorol | right |
| 05:52.04 | krka | good morning |
| 05:52.07 | Legorol | morning krka |
| 05:52.09 | slouken | hey krka |
| 05:52.21 | Legorol | It seems that i can't create functions in signed code |
| 05:52.25 | Legorol | they end up tainted |
| 05:52.33 | Legorol | "signed" in the sense of SubvertB |
| 05:52.39 | Iriel | I can |
| 05:52.55 | Legorol | then i must be doing something wrong |
| 05:52.57 | Iriel | Remember that calling them from tainted code taints their execution |
| 05:53.09 | Corrodias | taint~ |
| 05:54.06 | Legorol | yeah i know that |
| 05:54.12 | Legorol | sec, still battling with a bit of XML |
| 05:54.30 | krka | slouken, will only blizzard be able to sign addons? |
| 05:55.04 | Legorol | gah, i need to find a virtual that's only used once |
| 05:55.06 | krka | also, i am slightly curious how the signing is implemented :) |
| 05:55.21 | Iriel | Legorol : Not really |
| 05:55.29 | Iriel | Legorol : Just name your embedded frame with a unique name |
| 05:55.34 | Iriel | Legorol : It'll only get instantiated once |
| 05:55.52 | Legorol | i got two copies :/ |
| 05:56.03 | Iriel | My guess is a signed checksum of all of the files mentioned in the toc (and the toc itself) |
| 05:56.03 | Legorol | they have same name |
| 05:56.07 | krka | i am thinking cryptographic hash of the source code, then a trusted author signs the user id + the hash |
| 05:56.25 | Iriel | Oh. hm. well, set a global then and dont run your code the 2nd time? |
| 05:56.46 | Legorol | that's not the issue |
| 05:56.50 | Legorol | i get two copies of the frame i am creating |
| 05:56.55 | Legorol | it's no big deal, but kinda annoying |
| 05:57.05 | Legorol | one has name, the second one has nil as name |
| 05:57.08 | Legorol | but it does get created |
| 05:57.11 | Iriel | I used SmallMoneyFrameTemplate |
| 05:57.22 | Iriel | it's only used once, but is somewhat more complex |
| 05:57.39 | Legorol | i see it twice |
| 05:57.56 | Legorol | AuctionFrameMoneyFrame and AuctionsDepositMoneyFrame |
| 05:58.04 | Legorol | but that's not the important part |
| 05:58.05 | krka | hmm,,, what is this subvertb? |
| 05:58.09 | Legorol | the interesting part is that, |
| 05:58.19 | Legorol | krka: a method for us to create signed blizz code that Iriel discovered |
| 05:58.30 | Legorol | slouken already fixed the hole so we can talk about it openly |
| 05:59.02 | Legorol | Iriel, the interesting thing is that i thought that if i try to create a frame with the same name twice, the second one doesn't get created |
| 05:59.07 | krka | ah |
| 05:59.10 | Legorol | looks like this is not true, they both are created, |
| 05:59.16 | Legorol | and their event handlers function |
| 05:59.16 | Iriel | Just one has no name? |
| 05:59.19 | Legorol | yup |
| 05:59.22 | Legorol | this seems new |
| 05:59.37 | Legorol | and i don't understand why you are not seeing this, since SmallMoneyFrameTemplate is in fact used twice |
| 05:59.39 | Legorol | oh well |
| 05:59.50 | krka | that's an impressive find, i would think you would need to create source code with the same hash |
| 06:00.12 | Iriel | I cheated |
| 06:00.28 | Iriel | I dont actually change the bizzard code, I just fool WoW into including my code into it |
| 06:00.37 | Iriel | fun with virtual frames, and knowing how they load |
| 06:00.51 | krka | oh, interesting |
| 06:03.20 | Legorol | Iriel, i still can't create blessed closures |
| 06:03.45 | Iriel | Legorol : Pastebin your code |
| 06:03.46 | Legorol | i am |
| 06:03.56 | Legorol | http://wow.pastebin.com/606922 |
| 06:04.02 | Legorol | i am executing this in a blessed OnLoad |
| 06:04.40 | Legorol | I might as well pastebin my entire XML |
| 06:04.48 | Legorol | is that OK? |
| 06:04.54 | Legorol | since we can talk about it publically.. |
| 06:04.54 | krka | what is moveforwardflag? |
| 06:05.02 | slouken | Iriel, just send him SubvertB |
| 06:05.19 | Iriel | slouken : he's created his own equivalent, but i'd be happy to send him mine |
| 06:05.41 | Legorol | personally, i think it's more interesting (at least to me), and possibly more useful if we have two independent approaches |
| 06:05.48 | Legorol | more likely that we stumble onto something |
| 06:06.00 | krka | i kinda hope the game company i work at never have this kind of mad following |
| 06:06.00 | Legorol | plus, this is fun :-) |
| 06:06.07 | Legorol | lol krka |
| 06:06.12 | slouken | Yeah, I agree. :) |
| 06:06.21 | Iriel | krka: The question isn't whether the following exists |
| 06:06.25 | Iriel | It's whether you know about it |
| 06:06.30 | Legorol | Iriel: http://wow.pastebin.com/606924 |
| 06:06.40 | krka | if you know about, even more work for you :P |
| 06:06.42 | krka | poor slouken |
| 06:06.53 | slouken | Hah, I'm having a great time. :) |
| 06:06.56 | Iriel | As slouken said, better now, than in hotfixes/emergency patches post launchy |
| 06:06.57 | Legorol | i've put in a block so that the OnLoad code only happens once |
| 06:07.17 | Legorol | well to be entirely honest, it's been tightened down so much already |
| 06:07.24 | Legorol | any holes that are still left must be very very hard to find |
| 06:07.32 | Legorol | i don't think anyone's going to find it any time soon |
| 06:08.08 | Iriel | Legorol : Does movement have a HW requirement now? |
| 06:08.18 | Legorol | hm, could be |
| 06:08.21 | Legorol | but it should fail silently |
| 06:08.23 | Legorol | we have to ask slouken |
| 06:08.36 | Legorol | is hardware requirement in in this update? |
| 06:08.47 | slouken | Nope |
| 06:09.15 | Legorol | ok then i don't see why my PlayerFrame_OnUpdate hooking isn't working |
| 06:09.24 | Legorol | when i type /script MoveForwardFlag = true, i get blocked |
| 06:10.02 | Iriel | Maybe tainting is a bit more pervasive than I thought |
| 06:10.09 | Iriel | perhaps even VALUES are tainted |
| 06:10.13 | Legorol | but what is getting tainted here? |
| 06:10.16 | Iriel | your flag |
| 06:10.20 | Iriel | MoveForwardFlag could be |
| 06:10.30 | Iriel | That's crazy enough slouken might have done it |
| 06:10.33 | Legorol | but that can't be... |
| 06:10.37 | Iriel | sure it could be |
| 06:10.40 | Legorol | i mean |
| 06:10.50 | Iriel | Let me test it tho |
| 06:10.53 | Legorol | it would mean that a blizz function accessing a global that you assigned to last |
| 06:10.55 | Iriel | Just to be sure you're not doing something else |
| 06:10.59 | Legorol | would taint that function |
| 06:11.02 | Legorol | ok |
| 06:11.08 | Iriel | I dont think it has anything to do with WHERE the data is stored |
| 06:11.24 | Legorol | yeah |
| 06:11.30 | Legorol | global was just an example |
| 06:12.12 | slouken | BTW, /script is tainted. |
| 06:12.12 | Legorol | what you are trying to suggest implies that the mere act of accessing a variable (even a boolean) that is tainted causes tainting from there on |
| 06:12.28 | Iriel | Damn, you're good slouken |
| 06:12.34 | Legorol | lol |
| 06:12.45 | Iriel | ALL values are taintable |
| 06:12.45 | slouken | Thanks. :) |
| 06:12.45 | Iriel | except for nil |
| 06:12.45 | Iriel | which doesn't exist |
| 06:12.47 | Iriel | i'm sure if it did, it would be |
| 06:12.54 | Legorol | how do you represent a nil value? |
| 06:13.01 | Iriel | if you touch a tainted value, your execution path is tainted |
| 06:13.07 | Legorol | ick |
| 06:13.12 | Legorol | that is harsh |
| 06:13.18 | Iriel | but effective |
| 06:13.45 | Legorol | hm, so how am i going to give free access to MoveForwardStart to a random addon with SubvertB ;-) |
| 06:13.59 | Legorol | ah hold on |
| 06:14.04 | Legorol | hmm no.. |
| 06:14.22 | Iriel | Legorol : Pick a frame, show/hide it? OnHide/OnShow sets the flag ?? |
| 06:14.28 | Iriel | Legorol : That MIGHT just work |
| 06:14.40 | Iriel | I'll try it |
| 06:14.46 | Legorol | onshow/onhide does follow tainitng |
| 06:14.54 | Legorol | if you call Show() it taints the OnShow handler |
| 06:14.55 | Legorol | i tried it |
| 06:15.15 | Legorol | it's similar to the RunBindig exploit |
| 06:15.28 | Legorol | it looks like that now even if you go back to C and come out again, you come back out tainted |
| 06:16.01 | Legorol | hm, actually, that's not the *only* possible conclusion from my test |
| 06:16.03 | Iriel | Then you'll have to use a chat event |
| 06:16.22 | Legorol | strictly speaking the assignment tainting can also explain my result.. |
| 06:16.27 | Legorol | yeah OnShow is worth a try |
| 06:16.48 | slouken | It actually doesn't taint. I'm debating whether it should. |
| 06:17.09 | Iriel | OnShow/OnHide doesn't taint |
| 06:17.11 | Legorol | it doesn't? i see |
| 06:17.20 | Legorol | ah ok, i see what was happening |
| 06:17.26 | Iriel | I dont think it should either, it's only a danger if I can sign my own code |
| 06:17.30 | Legorol | a tainted value was causing my block with the OnShow test i was doing |
| 06:17.30 | Iriel | and in that case, why bother. |
| 06:17.34 | krka | slouken, will only blizzard be able to sign addons? |
| 06:17.48 | slouken | It's a danger if the OnShow/OnHide already does what you need. |
| 06:18.15 | Legorol | would it be very difficult to follow tainting back into C and out again? |
| 06:18.15 | Iriel | True, but the risk is that you'd accidently taint most of the standard UI by accident |
| 06:18.23 | slouken | Yeah |
| 06:18.35 | slouken | Which is why I didn't do it. |
| 06:18.54 | Iriel | Not having OnShow/OnHide as hardware events likely kills any bad things, coupled with your taint-everything plan 8-) |
| 06:18.54 | Legorol | right, so if we can find a way to do reassignment without tainting, |
| 06:19.13 | Legorol | the OnShow trick still works |
| 06:19.19 | Iriel | if we can do reassignment without tainting then we dont need OnShow/OnHide |
| 06:19.26 | krka | ok, now you need to stop talking for about an hour while i take the train to work |
| 06:19.32 | slouken | lol |
| 06:19.34 | Iriel | But OnShow/OnHide does work as a nice tainted->untainted communication mechanism |
| 06:19.44 | Legorol | that's the easiest i found so far |
| 06:19.49 | Cairenn | later krka :) |
| 06:19.50 | Legorol | you do your reassignment, then call Show |
| 06:19.50 | Iriel | For good OR evil 8-) |
| 06:20.16 | Legorol | long live the BankFrame! |
| 06:20.25 | Legorol | the poor thing, i've shown and hidden it so many times :D |
| 06:20.30 | Iriel | So for event handling, OnEvent dispatches start out untainted, but if you fiddle with event or the args, then the taint spreads. |
| 06:20.45 | Legorol | nice |
| 06:20.57 | Legorol | so that you can't change args and affect a subsequent handler? |
| 06:21.16 | Iriel | Well, not in any trust-breaking way |
| 06:21.24 | Iriel | You can screw up your entire UI if you try really hard, perhaps |
| 06:21.36 | Iriel | We have ENDLESS ways of breaking stuff |
| 06:21.49 | Iriel | But I dont think we have ways of subverting it to do things it doesn't want to do |
| 06:22.05 | Legorol | which is good |
| 06:22.32 | Iriel | Its better than I thought would be possible, I have to say. |
| 06:22.48 | Legorol | yeah |
| 06:22.56 | Legorol | slouken is a clever chappy |
| 06:23.12 | Iriel | I focussed too much on the FUNCTIONS rather than just VALUES |
| 06:23.32 | Legorol | darn reloadui... |
| 06:23.39 | Legorol | why doesn't this thing work with it |
| 06:23.55 | Iriel | I have to say, the reload thing is odd |
| 06:24.07 | Iriel | I can't explain why SubvertB doesn't work after a reload |
| 06:24.08 | Legorol | maybe some caching? |
| 06:24.33 | Iriel | I wonder if Blizzard_AuctionUI is no longer blessed after a ReloadUI either |
| 06:24.36 | Iriel | sadly there's no way to tell |
| 06:24.56 | Iriel | It's a pity MovePad isn't Load On Demand |
| 06:25.05 | Legorol | lol |
| 06:27.07 | Iriel | I wonder what the smallest bit of code that taints something unexpected is, I'd love to post it on the forum for someone to figure out. |
| 06:27.56 | Legorol | smallest bit of code to taint something unexpected? |
| 06:27.58 | Iriel | Sadly something like /script TurnOrActionStart=TurnOrActionStart is too obvious |
| 06:28.16 | Iriel | And I can't find any special functions that are preceded by a global reference 8-( |
| 06:28.29 | Legorol | ah right so you want to make it cryptic |
| 06:28.31 | Iriel | (not counting 'keystate') |
| 06:28.41 | Legorol | you want to post something that looks weird and has an unexpected result |
| 06:29.03 | Iriel | I was hoping for something like /script WARRIOR="WARRIOR" |
| 06:29.13 | Iriel | Or /script Something=true |
| 06:29.19 | Iriel | something really baffling if you dont expect it |
| 06:29.27 | Legorol | in that case, how about: setmetatable(getfenv(0), { __newindex = function(t,k,v) rawset(t,k,v) end }) |
| 06:29.33 | Iriel | that's too easy |
| 06:29.36 | Legorol | everything works except it breaks all protected bindings |
| 06:30.25 | Legorol | hehe i like your idea for the puzzle :_) |
| 06:30.50 | Legorol | ok i got SubvertB to do MoveForwardStart on demand for me |
| 06:30.54 | Legorol | via OnShow |
| 06:30.57 | Legorol | but that's too easy |
| 06:32.25 | Legorol | hmm ok, so what we know so far is that assignment in tainted code causes tainting... i wonder about setglobal :D |
| 06:32.53 | Legorol | darn... denied! |
| 06:33.29 | Iriel | well, setglobal reads 2 args |
| 06:33.40 | Iriel | to do something 'subversive' we'd have to get one to it untainted |
| 06:34.22 | Iriel | I thought I had a sneaky trick using UIOptionsFrame, until I found out all values were tainted, not just functions |
| 06:34.31 | Legorol | i was simply thinking that maybe something like setglobal or rawset doesn't go through the same path in C that a simple = does |
| 06:34.51 | Legorol | that was very naive i admit |
| 06:34.52 | Iriel | I believe you'll find the act of READING a tainted value taints your path |
| 06:35.08 | Legorol | no i am not doing that |
| 06:35.16 | Legorol | what i am doing is trying to set MoveForwardFlag to true |
| 06:35.21 | Legorol | without tainting MoveForwardFlag |
| 06:35.28 | Legorol | since it's initially nil, it starts untainted |
| 06:35.58 | Legorol | according to your theory ;-) |
| 06:35.58 | Iriel | Yes, but you use setglobal, from a tainted environment, so the new value is tainted |
| 06:35.58 | Legorol | that's exactly what i wanted to check: |
| 06:36.01 | Iriel | even if you can trick a signed setglobal, you still have to pass it "MoveForwardFlag" somehow |
| 06:36.03 | Legorol | is setglobal equivalent to an assignment? |
| 06:36.08 | Iriel | and likely that'll be tainted |
| 06:36.14 | Iriel | and your value, tainted. |
| 06:36.16 | Iriel | probably |
| 06:36.25 | Legorol | hold on a second... in a Lua table, |
| 06:36.25 | Iriel | UIOptionsFrame MIGHT give you an untainted value |
| 06:36.33 | Legorol | the entries, are they all Lua values? |
| 06:36.36 | Iriel | yes |
| 06:36.42 | Legorol | so they all have the same struct |
| 06:36.45 | Legorol | and now the special taint bit |
| 06:36.45 | Iriel | Well, ther'es a mix of value pairs, and just values |
| 06:36.46 | Iriel | yes |
| 06:36.47 | Iriel | Yes |
| 06:37.10 | Legorol | what an inefficient piece of system :D |
| 06:37.11 | Legorol | j/k |
| 06:37.38 | Legorol | slouken, you just multiplied our heap usage thanks to your evil scheme |
| 06:38.03 | Legorol | are you using a single bit, or are you wasting 8 whole precious bits on the tainted flag ;-) |
| 06:38.29 | slouken | It's a megabyte per variable. |
| 06:38.36 | Iriel | lua uses an INT (32 bits) for the object type |
| 06:38.37 | Cairenn | he could tell you, but then he'd have to kill you |
| 06:38.41 | Iriel | even though that has like 6 values |
| 06:38.42 | slouken | I figured, what's an extra terabyte of RAM? |
| 06:38.50 | Legorol | lol Cairenn |
| 06:38.52 | Legorol | rofl slouken |
| 06:38.56 | Cairenn | ;) |
| 06:39.00 | Legorol | you just make me laugh too much |
| 06:39.00 | slouken | :) |
| 06:39.01 | Iriel | sorry, 9 values |
| 06:39.20 | Iriel | (One of them IS nil, nils do sometimes have an object, just not in a table) |
| 06:39.25 | Iriel | (most of the time) |
| 06:39.32 | Legorol | Iriel: maybe they were thinking of adding lot more types.. |
| 06:39.36 | Legorol | like elephants, zebras etc. |
| 06:39.41 | Iriel | I suspect it's more than ints are fast |
| 06:39.44 | Iriel | very fast |
| 06:39.45 | Legorol | ok i am getting sleepy, bad jokes started coming out of me |
| 06:40.24 | slouken | Thanks guys, I feel much better about the system now that you've poked at it. |
| 06:41.12 | Corrodias | the Elephant data type? |
| 06:41.39 | Iriel | If our guesses are correct, the only real risk seems to be if a variable access path got missed when taintifying the lua runtime |
| 06:42.16 | Legorol | even that is a low risk.. |
| 06:42.20 | Legorol | we would still need signed code |
| 06:42.34 | Iriel | Indeed, to be useful it probably would |
| 06:42.45 | Iriel | and we've already tried some fairly tricky things |
| 06:43.06 | Legorol | heck, we have access to signed code yet we can't open a hole when we *want to* |
| 06:43.26 | Iriel | I think we can open some fairly wide holes until the SubvertB fix |
| 06:43.41 | End | I'm pretty sure it stores more than just a bit for taintedness |
| 06:43.45 | End | since it knows what addon |
| 06:43.58 | End | you could say the tainting has coloring :P |
| 06:44.05 | slouken | :) |
| 06:44.09 | Iriel | End: Good point |
| 06:44.44 | Legorol | it can store the addon's index |
| 06:45.17 | End | well, it's blessed, macro/script or addon |
| 06:45.28 | Iriel | It may just be 'addon' |
| 06:45.35 | Iriel | And they can check whether the addon is blessed |
| 06:45.44 | End | true |
| 06:46.24 | Iriel | Which would allow for a more complex access control system later if we get user-signed-somewhat-trusted addons later |
| 06:46.31 | End | although, that means it'd count FrameXML as an addon. and blizzard addons don't show up with normal indexes |
| 06:46.41 | Iriel | Build it right the first time so you dont have to rebuild it later. |
| 06:46.46 | End | (well, it'd have to assign FrameXML some sort of id though) |
| 06:46.48 | Iriel | I think FrameXML is processed, logically, as an addon |
| 06:46.55 | End | yeah |
| 06:46.55 | Iriel | It has the same structure as one |
| 06:47.01 | End | it does |
| 06:49.33 | slouken | Okay guys, it's been fun. I'm heading to bed. Let me know if you find anything else! :) |
| 06:49.40 | Iriel | Sleep well |
| 06:49.45 | End | cya slouken |
| 06:49.47 | Iriel | I think you can sleep soundly knowing we wont |
| 06:49.48 | slouken | Thanks again! :) |
| 06:49.48 | Iriel | 8-) |
| 06:50.07 | Iriel | But who knows what i'll dream up when I sleep |
| 06:50.07 | Cairenn | night slouken, sweet dreams :) |
| 06:50.23 | Legorol | i should go sleep too |
| 06:50.29 | Legorol | it was fun |
| 06:50.31 | Cairenn | and that makes three |
| 06:50.37 | Cairenn | night guys, I'm out |
| 06:50.39 | Iriel | I assume the signing code does checksum ALL included files when it loads |
| 06:50.40 | Iriel | 8-) |
| 06:50.45 | slouken | :) |
| 06:50.50 | Legorol | ah, idea: |
| 06:50.54 | Legorol | we haven't played with bindings yet :p |
| 06:51.02 | Legorol | i don't know if there is anything to be gained there or not |
| 06:51.07 | Cairenn | tomorrow Legorol, tomorrow |
| 06:51.10 | Iriel | I'm pretty sure there isn't |
| 06:51.11 | Cairenn | go sleep :) |
| 06:51.11 | Legorol | probably not.. |
| 06:51.15 | Legorol | yes mum! |
| 06:51.19 | Cairenn | ;) |
| 06:51.24 | Iriel | They also dont work on LoD code |
| 06:51.52 | Legorol | ah Iriel, could you do me a favour? |
| 06:51.59 | Iriel | Depends on what it is |
| 06:52.03 | Legorol | if you have time/inclination, could you find out why are you not getting two copies of your frame? |
| 06:52.15 | Legorol | it makes sense that i get two copies... |
| 06:52.22 | Iriel | Probably not, it's rather late 8-( |
| 06:52.27 | Legorol | fair enough |
| 06:52.32 | Legorol | not urgent, was just curious |
| 06:52.35 | Legorol | see ya |
| 06:58.40 | dukeku | http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6200/wow20060316173031342vv.jpg |
| 06:58.43 | dukeku | truly, art |
| 07:02.07 | Corrodias | are those all dead gnomes? |
| 07:04.14 | dukeku | yup |
| 07:04.26 | ckknight | can we still make 60's on the test realm? |
| 07:05.23 | Corrodias | believe it or not, george isn't at home |
| 07:06.08 | Wobin_ | ...That's really.... artistic |
| 07:06.14 | Wobin_ | for all it's morbidity |
| 07:06.34 | Wobin_ | To have to organise that many people.... |
| 07:06.50 | dukeku | they just asked for people to come on in the wow general forums |
| 07:06.56 | dukeku | caydiem's corpse is in there somewhere =P |
| 07:07.09 | Wobin_ | Surely this artwork has a name? =) |
| 07:07.21 | dukeku | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7528043 |
| 07:07.22 | dukeku | =/ |
| 07:19.58 | *** join/#wowi-lounge [MoonWolf] (n=MoonWolf@a80-127-128-193.adsl.xs4all.nl) |
| 07:21.20 | *** join/#wowi-lounge krka|work (n=kristofe@66.217.181.62.in-addr.dgcsystems.net) |
| 07:21.36 | krka|work | ok, now you can start talking again! |
| 07:23.19 | Iriel | I think we're done |
| 07:23.23 | krka|work | damn :/ |
| 07:23.27 | Iriel | Slouken bested us |
| 07:25.52 | Iriel | though for now the virtual frame trick is a chink in the armor |
| 07:26.01 | Iriel | But it's still only somewhat useful |
| 07:29.03 | krka|work | stupid timezones, i miss everything |
| 07:30.32 | Iriel | the basic conclusion is, everything is taintable, any value, anywhere |
| 07:30.44 | Iriel | if you touch something tainted during execution, everything else you do is tainted |
| 07:30.50 | krka|work | interesting |
| 07:31.01 | Corrodias | what is "tainted"? |
| 07:31.35 | Iriel | An indication that a value is not to be trusted, kinda |
| 07:32.56 | Iriel | so for example, if a piece of blizzard code checks teh value of a flag and then calls MoveForwardStart |
| 07:33.05 | Iriel | if the flag's value is set by blizzard code, the function will work |
| 07:33.19 | Iriel | if it's set by non-blizzard code, the function wont work, because the value is tainted |
| 07:33.30 | Corrodias | why are they attacking the ability to hook movement functions? |
| 07:33.40 | Corrodias | i am not aware decursive uses them |
| 07:33.42 | Iriel | AutoBuff/AutoDebuff I think |
| 07:33.49 | Iriel | More AutoBuff than anything else |
| 07:35.09 | Iriel | thats just my guess, given how they made the change |
| 07:51.35 | Iriel | Sleepytime for me |
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| 09:04.11 | Kirov | Anyone around? |
| 09:07.53 | Wobin_ | you've hit the quiet time |
| 09:07.54 | [MoonWolf] | not reallty |
| 09:08.13 | [MoonWolf] | this is the time when the us is away and the eu is still arriving. |
| 09:08.29 | Wobin_ | And oceania is still sticking around =P |
| 09:08.46 | [MoonWolf] | oceania haxx |
| 09:09.02 | Wobin_ | heh I was actually quite amused yesterday |
| 09:09.10 | Wobin_ | We had a person roleplaying in chinese =) |
| 09:09.30 | Wobin_ | (granted she was asking for gold, but I still gave it to her for the novelty of it all) |
| 09:12.12 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (i=the_real@tux.nerdheaven.dk) |
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| 12:32.58 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@rhhe10-109.2wcm.comporium.net) |
| 12:58.29 | Osagasu | I just realized the irony in Saien's Master Control Program addon... |
| 12:59.31 | [MoonWolf] | what would that be then ? |
| 13:00.21 | Osagasu | It just lets you turn on and off addons from inside the game, like a number of other addons |
| 13:00.47 | Osagasu | But in this case, the Master Control Program was the main antagonist in Tron. |
| 13:01.05 | [MoonWolf] | aha |
| 13:04.39 | krka|work | name may be chosen deliberately |
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| 13:14.30 | *** join/#wowi-lounge JoshBorke (n=Josh@antimatter.stl.gtri.gatech.edu) |
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| 13:20.55 | JoshBorke | morning |
| 13:21.28 | [MoonWolf] | morning |
| 13:23.40 | JoshBorke | do you know if SPELLCAST_START gives rank information? |
| 13:23.59 | [MoonWolf] | not a clue |
| 13:26.54 | Cide | it doesn't |
| 13:27.13 | Cide | it has 2 args, arg1 is spell name, arg2 is cast time in ms, I believe |
| 13:28.24 | Osagasu | krka: probably is, but it doesn't stop it from being ironic. |
| 13:32.24 | Tain | Shadowbane just dropped their monthly fee, for anyone interested in trying something new. |
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| 15:22.35 | Wobin_ | maybe spell name gives the rank? |
| 15:23.49 | krka|work | just check what action you clicked on |
| 15:24.04 | krka|work | and we can still hook castspell, right? |
| 15:27.24 | Adrine | Dude. Nerf hunters (and shaman). :( |
| 15:27.27 | Adrine | http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=obsidian2mo.jpg |
| 15:27.39 | Adrine | Black Grasp of the Destroyer. Want leather version plz. |
| 15:28.13 | Adrine | The shield and breastplate are crazy too. |
| 15:28.44 | Adrine | Actually, come to think of it. |
| 15:28.50 | Adrine | Nerf everyone that can wear armor I can't. >_> |
| 15:32.19 | JoshBorke | i like the black grasp of the destroyer |
| 15:32.26 | Wobin_ | oh dear god |
| 15:32.39 | Wobin_ | 8 mana drain per hit |
| 15:32.43 | Adrine | That's insane. |
| 15:32.46 | Adrine | Not even a proc. |
| 15:32.49 | Adrine | That's -per hit- |
| 15:32.54 | krka|work | haha: http://qdb.us/56819 |
| 15:32.58 | Wobin_ | I know! |
| 15:33.12 | Wobin_ | That's just crazytalk |
| 15:33.16 | krka|work | 8 mana is nothing |
| 15:33.33 | Wobin_ | it's 8 free mana |
| 15:33.37 | Wobin_ | on ranged as well |
| 15:33.49 | JoshBorke | wow, if you use a fast weapon with that |
| 15:34.14 | JoshBorke | or even 2 weapons with it |
| 15:34.24 | Adrine | Yeah. |
| 15:34.47 | krka|work | or 3! |
| 15:35.03 | Wobin_ | ... |
| 15:35.07 | Wobin_ | 3 weapons? |
| 15:35.12 | Corrodias | so i ask you this |
| 15:35.27 | Corrodias | what spellcaster is going to go attacking with his hands? a druid, maybe |
| 15:35.33 | Corrodias | that's about it |
| 15:35.36 | Wobin_ | ? |
| 15:35.55 | JoshBorke | i'm thinking a warrior could use that to mana-drain a caster |
| 15:35.58 | Wobin_ | they're gloves, aren't they? |
| 15:36.08 | Adrine | Yes |
| 15:36.10 | Corrodias | although i see the advantages for hunters |
| 15:36.25 | Wobin_ | so, hunters could wear them and multishot/fastshot/etc |
| 15:36.30 | Adrine | I'd suspect they're great hunter raiding gloves. |
| 15:36.38 | Adrine | Specifically because of the mana return. |
| 15:36.48 | JoshBorke | i see PvP repercussions myself |
| 15:36.59 | Adrine | Eh. Viper sting in PVP is a lot more effective. |
| 15:37.13 | Adrine | But rogues don't have a mana drain, and want one, so leather gloves please! :D |
| 15:38.59 | JoshBorke | rogues are over-rated. nerf rogues |
| 15:39.18 | Adrine | @_@ |
| 15:39.57 | JoshBorke | :D |
| 15:40.59 | JoshBorke | wb |
| 15:41.08 | AnduinLothar | only 7 hrs? |
| 15:41.44 | Cairenn | thanks |
| 15:41.47 | Cairenn | AnduinLothar: ? |
| 15:42.12 | AnduinLothar | nm... more like 9+ |
| 15:42.15 | AnduinLothar | [22:54] ---Cairenn is now known as Cairenn|sleep |
| 15:42.27 | krka|work | i like to get 13 |
| 15:42.28 | AnduinLothar | [07:40] ---Cairenn|sleep is now known as Cairenn |
| 15:42.35 | Cairenn | and I've been up for a couple hours already, out running errands |
| 15:42.41 | AnduinLothar | ah, good girl |
| 15:42.49 | AnduinLothar | i haven't slept yet |
| 15:42.57 | Cairenn | you should sleep |
| 15:42.59 | AnduinLothar | DotA tourneys at work |
| 15:43.05 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 15:43.10 | krka|work | sleep is imba nerf sleep |
| 15:43.41 | AnduinLothar | after hours thursday is DotA time. we had enough peeps stay for 2 full 10 man games ata atime |
| 15:44.24 | AnduinLothar | we try to balence the team sout , but it makes the games last forever |
| 15:46.17 | Corrodias | DotA. i have played that a couple of times. i suck amazingly. |
| 15:47.18 | Corrodias | we took three of the best players versus three of the worst players in the lab yesterday and turned it into a 30 minute survival game. we did not succeed, and i lead in deaths. -.- |
| 15:50.34 | AnduinLothar | i did decently with Tree today |
| 15:50.52 | AnduinLothar | no one likes him, but he's basicly the only way i can play melle well |
| 15:51.19 | AnduinLothar | i just don't know when to back off, so cloaking in the trees allows me to stay allive |
| 15:51.36 | Corrodias | i am not familiar with the items and what is beneficial, yet |
| 15:51.55 | AnduinLothar | i died once that game, got to 25 and had top score, but only a handfull of kills |
| 15:52.03 | AnduinLothar | basicly invincible support |
| 15:52.13 | Adrine | I really rather suck at RTSes. :D |
| 15:52.31 | Corrodias | DotA isn't really an RTS at all |
| 15:52.36 | AnduinLothar | DotA's different, it's more of a multiplayer rpg |
| 15:52.47 | Corrodias | which is the only reason i'm interested, seeing as i am abysmally bad at -those- |
| 15:52.50 | AnduinLothar | with 20min-1h games |
| 15:52.51 | JoshBorke | what is DotA? |
| 15:53.02 | AnduinLothar | www.dota-allstars.com |
| 15:53.03 | Corrodias | i have to go to class now, but enjoy learning about it! [away] |
| 15:53.08 | Cairenn | Defense of the Ancients |
| 15:53.17 | Cairenn | later Corrodias |
| 15:53.24 | Corrodias | (i also enjoy me a good game of tower defense) |
| 15:53.33 | AnduinLothar | ya, occationally |
| 15:53.47 | AnduinLothar | been towing with element td the past month or two with a friend |
| 15:54.15 | AnduinLothar | yay! payday! |
| 15:55.10 | AnduinLothar | karl likes payday.. makes him feel rich for a while |
| 15:55.28 | AnduinLothar | till he spends it on sill ythinks like rent and utilities and food... |
| 15:55.42 | AnduinLothar | then he feels poor again |
| 15:56.14 | AnduinLothar | stupid utilities here are obcesely expensive |
| 15:56.25 | AnduinLothar | obsenely* |
| 15:56.34 | AnduinLothar | w/e |
| 15:56.37 | AnduinLothar | high |
| 15:57.46 | AnduinLothar | ug... 3 hrs till class... this is not good... |
| 15:57.53 | AnduinLothar | i need to find a project.. |
| 15:58.07 | AnduinLothar | oh i know. I was gonna make new graphics for slouken's pad |
| 15:58.52 | AnduinLothar | anyone got suggestions? I was thinkign of going with something that looks like the xbox joypad only a lil more wow style |
| 15:59.16 | AnduinLothar | not sure if i'm that pro tho.. |
| 15:59.25 | AnduinLothar | be easier if i could 3d model it |
| 16:00.26 | AnduinLothar | yay for taling to myself! |
| 16:00.40 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 16:00.44 | Legorol | it's good AnduinLothar, keep it up |
| 16:00.57 | AnduinLothar | why look, it's a leg |
| 16:00.59 | Legorol | ideas come more freely when you are talking to someone |
| 16:01.03 | AnduinLothar | where's the arm? |
| 16:01.37 | Legorol | It's legO not leg |
| 16:01.38 | AnduinLothar | so um.... joypad sounds ... soooo last decade.. |
| 16:01.43 | Legorol | hehe |
| 16:01.52 | JoshBorke | yea, joypad ftl |
| 16:02.07 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol^ (n=Legorol@tcmpc43.phy.cam.ac.uk) |
| 16:02.10 | Legorol^ | ahh, this is better |
| 16:02.29 | AnduinLothar | i either need somehting really old school to match the wow medevil thing or something new and exciting like line art or animated fireballs |
| 16:02.35 | Cairenn | aw crap, lego is replicating again |
| 16:02.44 | AnduinLothar | i have tons of legos.. |
| 16:02.58 | Legorol^ | yeah i have a drawer full somewhere.. |
| 16:03.05 | Legorol^ | i am planning on keeping it for my children |
| 16:03.13 | Legorol^ | although i think they wouldn't be interested :/ |
| 16:03.15 | AnduinLothar | i like the bendy flexi ones best.. the small ones that take you 30 min to find in the pile |
| 16:03.17 | Legorol^ | they'll be all into digital stuff |
| 16:03.34 | AnduinLothar | but are essential for your masterpiece |
| 16:03.36 | Legorol^ | yah that's annoying when you are looking for that one piece... and you can't find it! |
| 16:03.47 | AnduinLothar | i did that all the time |
| 16:03.47 | Legorol^ | especially annoying if you find the right shape.. but the wrong colour |
| 16:03.52 | AnduinLothar | i would stil for hours |
| 16:03.57 | AnduinLothar | ya |
| 16:04.28 | AnduinLothar | sometimes you had to go with a color scheme instead of just 1 color, caus eu didn't have enough black pieces.. |
| 16:04.54 | AnduinLothar | red pieces are pretty useless |
| 16:05.33 | Legorol^ | unless you are doing the fire engine |
| 16:05.40 | AnduinLothar | meh |
| 16:05.45 | AnduinLothar | space ftw |
| 16:05.59 | krka|work | take stuff out of context FTW: <AnduinLothar> i like the bendy flexi ones best.. |
| 16:06.04 | AnduinLothar | monorail had red i think... the first one. the 2nd one was blue and grey |
| 16:06.25 | AnduinLothar | i always wanted a monorail set.. |
| 16:06.33 | AnduinLothar | like $200 |
| 16:07.03 | AnduinLothar | i wish, they don't make um |
| 16:07.11 | AnduinLothar | it'd prolly be liek $500 |
| 16:07.13 | Legorol^ | what's a monorail set? |
| 16:07.29 | AnduinLothar | lemme try and find some relics of my childhood |
| 16:07.33 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot|clean (n=esnickel@ip-66-80-2-118.dsl.sca.megapath.net) |
| 16:07.45 | Qzot|clean | *yawn* |
| 16:07.50 | AnduinLothar | the best set i ever got tho, was hands down the ice planet flag ship |
| 16:07.55 | Cairenn | hey Qzot|clean |
| 16:07.59 | AnduinLothar | that thing was UBER |
| 16:08.40 | AnduinLothar | it like transformed into 5 parts that interconnected and had a rocket/satelite and a sliding door for a rear docking bay hanger |
| 16:08.52 | Qzot | What mob drops that? |
| 16:08.58 | krka|work | that's hunter loot |
| 16:09.10 | Cairenn | we are discussing the geeky goodness that is Lego blocks |
| 16:09.11 | AnduinLothar | and those bright orange phase chainsaws were uber |
| 16:09.14 | Qzot | I have a hunter. What mob drops that? |
| 16:09.23 | Qzot | Oh. |
| 16:09.46 | Qzot | My little brother got Legos. I didn't. :( |
| 16:09.51 | AnduinLothar | http://www.ngltc.org/Train_Depot/monointr.htm |
| 16:10.07 | Qzot | Poor me. |
| 16:10.07 | Qzot | Poor, poor me. |
| 16:10.08 | krka|work | legos are the best toy ever |
| 16:10.15 | krka|work | except for wow lua pre 1.6 :P |
| 16:10.19 | Qzot | Yeah, I could tell. |
| 16:10.34 | AnduinLothar | the 1996 version was the best ever |
| 16:11.15 | AnduinLothar | but the 1987 was OG |
| 16:11.27 | AnduinLothar | as in original gangsta |
| 16:11.40 | AnduinLothar | came out before my lego days tho |
| 16:11.52 | AnduinLothar | i started legos just as futron was being replaced |
| 16:11.57 | Qzot | Anything exciting happening? Something that would justify further procrastination, so that I could delay going off and reading the 300 pages of transcripts I need to have read within 4 hours?? :P |
| 16:12.12 | Cairenn | nope |
| 16:12.18 | Qzot | *rats* |
| 16:12.58 | Qzot | Okay. I'm going afk, except to check back in here for a spot of sanity... |
| 16:14.27 | AnduinLothar | omg... best site ever http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Space |
| 16:14.52 | AnduinLothar | Blacktron was sexy |
| 16:15.11 | AnduinLothar | i had a blacktron spaceship i remember |
| 16:16.16 | AnduinLothar | here's the 1st one: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6990 |
| 16:16.34 | AnduinLothar | i didn't liek space police so much |
| 16:16.40 | AnduinLothar | M:Tron was cool tho |
| 16:17.27 | AnduinLothar | ah, here the Blacktron 2 set i had: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6981 |
| 16:17.29 | AnduinLothar | uber |
| 16:17.39 | End | I remember Ice Planet |
| 16:17.48 | AnduinLothar | i still have that main B shield |
| 16:18.03 | AnduinLothar | and it's still recognizable as a B |
| 16:18.31 | Legorol^ | whoah, Lego monorail sounds so cool |
| 16:18.34 | Legorol^ | i wish i had had one of those |
| 16:18.41 | AnduinLothar | this was the uber Ice Planet one. my favorite lego set ever: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6973 |
| 16:18.58 | End | yeah |
| 16:19.19 | AnduinLothar | i still have the instruction manul, half fallign apart at my parents house taped together |
| 16:20.06 | AnduinLothar | here's the monorail v2 i always wanted: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6991 |
| 16:20.26 | AnduinLothar | super expensive, my parents wouldn't get it for me :'( |
| 16:20.28 | Legorol^ | this is the biggest set I probably ever had: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6392 |
| 16:20.40 | Legorol^ | nothing exciting, but at the time it was quite exciting to build it |
| 16:20.55 | Adrine | I never had sets - just random mishmashes of pieces. |
| 16:21.02 | Adrine | I had a huge container of them though |
| 16:21.21 | Legorol^ | i'd get sets, and they'd end up in the container :-) |
| 16:21.25 | Adrine | I burned hours on end constructing things with legos before I discovered the computer. |
| 16:21.29 | End | I had started out with sets, but then they wouldn't be sets anymore |
| 16:21.33 | AnduinLothar | the iceplanet ship was pretty huge and lots of pieces for being only $45 |
| 16:21.53 | AnduinLothar | compared to the monorail |
| 16:22.19 | AnduinLothar | the og monorail had as much pieces as a 'Model Team' set |
| 16:22.43 | AnduinLothar | omg online lego catalogues |
| 16:23.26 | AnduinLothar | I always wanted the Mach II Red Bird Rig too from Model Team: http://www.peeron.com/catalogs/1994/mini/1/ |
| 16:24.32 | AnduinLothar | come to think of it. i had EVERY Unitron set |
| 16:24.34 | End | haha, wtf. apparently Google co-founder Larry Page built an inject printer out of legos |
| 16:24.47 | AnduinLothar | except the monorail |
| 16:24.55 | Adrine | End: That doesn't surprise me. At all. |
| 16:25.13 | Adrine | Speaking of, I need to apply to Google. They're building an office in-town. :D |
| 16:25.28 | AnduinLothar | ya, this one was sexy too: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/1789 |
| 16:25.46 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphen (n=gryphon@67-42-95-27.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 16:26.14 | AnduinLothar | like half a tie defender mixed with an x wing.. |
| 16:26.35 | AnduinLothar | didn't like Spyrius much |
| 16:26.57 | AnduinLothar | rthe robo was cool: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6949 |
| 16:27.56 | AnduinLothar | this thing was pretty uber too i had: http://guide.lugnet.com/set/6982 not quite as cool as the iceplanet but it came out 3 years later |
| 16:29.12 | AnduinLothar | i kinda grew out of legos about the time of the UFO series tho |
| 16:30.31 | AnduinLothar | but i think i prolly got 40% of the space sets from 89-96 |
| 16:31.39 | AnduinLothar | the good old days. same time i started playing old text based adventures and arcade type games on my mac |
| 16:33.45 | AnduinLothar | the monorail 2 is the 4th most expensive lego set ever :) |
| 16:34.37 | AnduinLothar | omg... i found a place to buy it! $190 |
| 16:35.30 | AnduinLothar | if i got it i would so have to go home and find all my unitron sets and rebuild them and seet um all up for display |
| 16:37.05 | AnduinLothar | it's so not worth it... but it's liek a piece of my childhood. one of those longings that never got fullfilled (prolly for good reason) |
| 16:38.09 | AnduinLothar | $190 used |
| 16:38.20 | AnduinLothar | used and it |
| 16:38.29 | AnduinLothar | s still more than the orig price |
| 16:38.34 | Cairenn | You guys may find this interesting. A way around the hooking movement keys: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17865#post17865 |
| 16:39.34 | End | meh, that's trying |
| 16:39.49 | MentalPower | its a good idea |
| 16:40.13 | Adrine | Swapping the keybindings seems iffy to me. |
| 16:41.35 | Cairenn | if it'll work, will those that would do it care whether it's "iffy" or not? |
| 16:41.37 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=KCummins@c-24-130-132-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 16:42.08 | Adrine | Likely not. |
| 16:42.15 | Adrine | Also, Snakes on a Plane is going to be hilarious. |
| 16:42.56 | End | well, it won't work as well, considering now you effectively need to "eat" up the hardware event |
| 16:43.08 | Adrine | This is true. |
| 16:43.17 | Adrine | Means two keypresses, but still. Eh. |
| 16:43.54 | AnduinLothar | much easier to spam mouseclicks than keyboard tho |
| 16:51.48 | AnduinLothar | oh wow.. how did i miss out on the lego batman sets!> |
| 16:51.58 | Cairenn | lol |
| 16:52.01 | AnduinLothar | http://shop.lego.com/product.asp?p=7781 |
| 16:52.06 | AnduinLothar | i so need one |
| 16:52.31 | AnduinLothar | equipped with projectile |
| 16:52.37 | *** part/#wowi-lounge Legorol^ (n=Legorol@tcmpc43.phy.cam.ac.uk) |
| 16:52.38 | AnduinLothar | and flames |
| 16:52.57 | Cairenn | boys and their toys |
| 16:53.12 | AnduinLothar | omg it's work it just for the batman figurine itself |
| 16:53.23 | AnduinLothar | check out the helmet and cape |
| 16:53.31 | AnduinLothar | onyl $30... |
| 16:53.41 | AnduinLothar | wow.. i'm gonn ahave to find it in stores |
| 16:54.31 | AnduinLothar | it has ficken dragon wings! |
| 16:54.56 | AnduinLothar | i got 2 hours till class... wonder if target has it |
| 16:56.35 | AnduinLothar | dude... it's a batmobile... |
| 16:56.43 | AnduinLothar | you just don't understand.. |
| 16:57.00 | Cairenn | heh |
| 16:57.21 | AnduinLothar | if there was a good Tie Defender Model I'd get that too |
| 16:58.12 | AnduinLothar | a coworker just got himself the UBER Star Destroyer model |
| 16:58.28 | AnduinLothar | he brought it in to work, lol. I'd fricken HUGE |
| 16:58.33 | AnduinLothar | it's* |
| 16:59.13 | AnduinLothar | http://shop.lego.com/product.asp?p=10030 |
| 16:59.22 | AnduinLothar | monsterous |
| 17:02.05 | AnduinLothar | gotta admit these are pretty good: http://shop.lego.com/product.asp?p=10131 |
| 17:02.20 | AnduinLothar | dont like the defender tho.. |
| 17:02.32 | AnduinLothar | the bomber's done well |
| 17:02.40 | AnduinLothar | and the normal tie's pretty easy |
| 17:02.51 | AnduinLothar | never seena good defender tho |
| 17:04.04 | AnduinLothar | oh right, it's an 'advanced, vader's ship, not the bomber. the bomber has two center things |
| 17:04.49 | Corrodias | where's their defender? |
| 17:04.56 | AnduinLothar | they dont have one |
| 17:05.05 | AnduinLothar | they have a driod fighter from ep 1 |
| 17:05.08 | Corrodias | so you don't like the one... that doesn't exist? >_> |
| 17:05.13 | AnduinLothar | right |
| 17:06.00 | AnduinLothar | this y-wing's good tho |
| 17:06.02 | AnduinLothar | http://shop.lego.com/product.asp?p=10134 |
| 17:06.38 | AnduinLothar | cept i think it's missing a rotating photon cannon on top.. |
| 17:06.41 | Corrodias | you know, i'm not sure what Lego is about any more. they have so many premolded pieces that i'm not sure you even have to build anything |
| 17:07.25 | AnduinLothar | that y-wing's actually fairly impressive |
| 17:07.43 | AnduinLothar | yikes |
| 17:07.50 | AnduinLothar | $130... ok never mine |
| 17:07.52 | AnduinLothar | mind* |
| 17:08.27 | Corrodias | if they sold a life size replica of a star destroyer made out of legos for that price, i'd be all over it. |
| 17:08.31 | AnduinLothar | oh ok, the turret's near the front, i didn't see it |
| 17:09.14 | AnduinLothar | ok, i'm done dreaming with legos for now.. it's an addictive habit i don't want to get back into |
| 17:09.40 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 17:09.41 | AnduinLothar | i gave legos a decade of my life. no more |
| 17:09.53 | Corrodias | *eyebrow* |
| 17:10.35 | AnduinLothar | i'm serious... you can never manage to afford every cool lego set that comes out. |
| 17:10.45 | AnduinLothar | I would have to work at lego |
| 17:10.57 | AnduinLothar | i always wanted to design lego sets tho |
| 17:11.07 | AnduinLothar | that would be pretty awsome |
| 17:12.41 | AnduinLothar | ya ok.. i'm gonna have to block that site now |
| 17:12.42 | Miravlix | I had my 1000 pieces some years ago, you don't need sets, just lost of pieces and you can build anything. |
| 17:13.09 | AnduinLothar | i have upwards of 10 thousand pieces |
| 17:14.28 | AnduinLothar | two 2'x2'x3' boxes |
| 17:14.37 | Miravlix | I don't like modern lego with pre-made pieces, that only wok in one shape. :p |
| 17:14.53 | Corrodias | i'm not sure if you have to -build- anything any more |
| 17:15.01 | *** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net) |
| 17:15.21 | AnduinLothar | complain complain. i always wished i could make my own custom pieces |
| 17:15.56 | AnduinLothar | but part of the fun is building somethign actually looks good with a custom piece froma completely different se |
| 17:15.59 | AnduinLothar | set* |
| 17:16.02 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 17:16.04 | Shouryuu | rawr |
| 17:16.10 | Gryphen | ono i esceared of teh rawr! i need a huggle. |
| 17:16.11 | Cairenn | *purr* |
| 17:16.21 | AnduinLothar | moo |
| 17:16.28 | JoshBorke | ruff |
| 17:16.41 | AnduinLothar | legos are poison now.. they eat my $ |
| 17:16.56 | Shouryuu | ? |
| 17:16.56 | AnduinLothar | i... must.. not.... buy... legos.. |
| 17:16.59 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 17:17.06 | Qzot|bored | You guys are *still* talking legos??? O.O |
| 17:17.28 | AnduinLothar | dude, you have no idea how adicted karl was to legos |
| 17:17.30 | Cairenn | yup, they are |
| 17:17.35 | Miravlix | My mom gave my lego away years ago, all i've gotten since then was a dragon and it was a pre-made figure. |
| 17:17.37 | Cairenn | or rather, AnduinLothar is |
| 17:17.54 | AnduinLothar | it's like crack except your parents pay for it |
| 17:17.56 | Qzot|insane | May I please change the topic? I'm taking a break before going back to reading... |
| 17:18.35 | Cairenn | no one is stopping you |
| 17:18.37 | AnduinLothar | and say, oh my... he's going to grow up to be an engineer, lets encourage him and give him more legos and let him sit in his room for hours on end |
| 17:18.45 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 17:18.46 | Qzot|insane | "like crack except your parents pay for it". I had the wrong parents... |
| 17:19.19 | Qzot|insane | I got chemistry sets for Christmas. Never. Even. Opened. |
| 17:19.40 | Shouryuu | awww |
| 17:19.48 | AnduinLothar | ya, my dad tried to get me off legos a couple times |
| 17:19.54 | Shouryuu | I got legos from the tooth fairies and my god father |
| 17:19.54 | Qzot|insane | I recently invented a hunter technique. I have to be about the millionth person, but it was new to me. |
| 17:19.55 | AnduinLothar | electronics sets |
| 17:20.07 | AnduinLothar | chemistry sets |
| 17:20.25 | Qzot|insane | Having a single mob shuttle between you and your pet. Ever heard of it? |
| 17:20.25 | AnduinLothar | it was the video games that finally did it |
| 17:20.40 | AnduinLothar | and then the internet... omg the internet is more addicting than legos.. |
| 17:21.18 | AnduinLothar | and now we have internet + video games = the most addictive form of 'entertainment' on the planet |
| 17:21.40 | AnduinLothar | what's next... |
| 17:21.58 | Qzot|insane | And if you've heard of it, what names have you heard for the technique. I liked to try Googling it. |
| 17:22.16 | Qzot|insane | 'Shuttling' was just what I thought of when I started trying it. |
| 17:23.17 | AnduinLothar | pretty soon it'll be like the sci-fi Tek series where half the population is addicted to a digital drug called Tek that is sold on chips and you can only experience in the digital world |
| 17:23.34 | Qzot|insane | 'Shuttling': Send pet to attack. Start firing. When mob heads to you, tell pet to wait. When mob arrives, feign death. Mob heads back to pet. When arrives have pet attack again, and you attack again. When mob heads back to you... |
| 17:24.09 | AnduinLothar | and people murder each other in the digital world and they'll have freedom fighters whole fight for the good old days when drugs where semi-herbal |
| 17:24.23 | Cairenn | rofl |
| 17:25.02 | AnduinLothar | and the new *fat* people will just live in the digial world |
| 17:25.11 | Cairenn | Karl, you really need to try to get some sleep soon ... |
| 17:25.16 | Cairenn | lol |
| 17:25.36 | Corrodias | AND THERE WILL BE FLYING BEEF SANWICHES! |
| 17:25.43 | Corrodias | *sandwiches. |
| 17:25.45 | AnduinLothar | and then we get to the whole Circuit of Heaven sci-fi level where we all upload our conscienseness into a digial world and cremate our bodies |
| 17:25.50 | Cairenn | oh noez |
| 17:26.09 | AnduinLothar | and there will be andriods taking over the world and learning about love |
| 17:26.22 | Corrodias | and the power of friendship |
| 17:26.31 | Corrodias | of course they're japanese androids |
| 17:26.35 | AnduinLothar | and humans falling in love with andriods like romeo and juliet only... twisted |
| 17:26.46 | Qzot|insane | AnduinLothar: You seem a little on the manic side. Any chance you've been eating any legos manufactured in Taiwan from the last half of 1998? |
| 17:26.50 | Corrodias | japanese humans! |
| 17:27.11 | AnduinLothar | actually i have always loved chewing on things |
| 17:27.20 | Shouryuu | no comment |
| 17:27.22 | AnduinLothar | i chewed on legos regularly for a decade |
| 17:27.29 | AnduinLothar | and ice |
| 17:27.43 | AnduinLothar | and when i was an infant, my thumb |
| 17:27.46 | Shouryuu | but not gum? |
| 17:28.13 | Cairenn | I really worry about some of you by times ... |
| 17:28.17 | Qzot|insane | Um. Check the lot #s, and compare against http://www.surprisingtoxins.org/generic.aspx?cat=leg&id=2742 |
| 17:28.26 | AnduinLothar | well my mother always bought sugar free.. which i chewed for a while... but only ever really liked cinamen flavor |
| 17:29.04 | AnduinLothar | so now i don't like gum much unless it cinimen or sour apple flavor |
| 17:29.30 | AnduinLothar | and i downright detest almost all types of sugar substitutes |
| 17:29.36 | Qzot|afk | Back to reading... |
| 17:30.51 | Corrodias | Qzot|afk: DNS failure. |
| 17:31.25 | Qzot|afk | It was a joke. I was trying to imply that chemical were interfering with thought processes... |
| 17:31.36 | Qzot|afk | Fabricated. |
| 17:31.39 | Qzot|afk | Made up. |
| 17:31.41 | Qzot|afk | Pretend. |
| 17:31.52 | Corrodias | i see |
| 17:31.53 | AnduinLothar | my memory is really weird.. i relember blacktron sets and their defining features from 1991 but i can't remember what anyone at work was wearing today or even the names of the people i ate dinner with |
| 17:32.01 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net) |
| 17:32.07 | Shouryuu | why do the walls in my apartement have to be so thin, and why do my brother/roomate gf/bf have to be so f***** loud |
| 17:32.13 | Corrodias | phht, i don't remember people much at all |
| 17:32.23 | AnduinLothar | so loud f****** ? |
| 17:32.26 | Corrodias | so go join them! orgy! orgy! orgy! |
| 17:32.35 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 17:32.45 | Qzot|afk | It could be worse. |
| 17:32.50 | Shouryuu | no really they are driving me nuts |
| 17:32.58 | Qzot|afk | You could share a wall with your parent. |
| 17:33.04 | AnduinLothar | you sould go ask if you can borrow her for a dance |
| 17:33.09 | Qzot|afk | s/parent/parents/ |
| 17:33.15 | Shouryuu | yeah a friend of mine had that |
| 17:33.18 | Shouryuu | un-cool |
| 17:34.07 | AnduinLothar | so... headphones... |
| 17:34.12 | AnduinLothar | i need new ones |
| 17:34.19 | AnduinLothar | i really cant decide |
| 17:34.27 | Shouryuu | headphones are not cool when trying to sleep |
| 17:34.31 | Corrodias | what sort of quality and price are you looking for? |
| 17:34.43 | Shouryuu | I've though of earplugs but then I won;t hear my alarm clock :( |
| 17:35.21 | AnduinLothar | i wish some mid-high quality in-ear ones came with the rubber 'arround the ear' style |
| 17:35.24 | Qzot|afk | Use earplugs and get an alarm clock for the deaf. |
| 17:35.28 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 17:35.40 | Qzot|afk | Strobe lights, usually. |
| 17:35.48 | Corrodias | the sony mdr-v150's are extremely popular, having what i'd call "good" audio quality for a low price ($20 last i checked), although they're classic over-the-top sit-on-your-ear headphones |
| 17:36.06 | AnduinLothar | ya, i dont want those |
| 17:36.58 | Corrodias | the v600's are large, cover-the-entire-ear types with very good audio quality ($75), but due to their size they can be cumbersome, though they are comfortable, especially if you don't wear glasses |
| 17:37.04 | AnduinLothar | the problem is i wan tthem to be good for use while skating, loud and bassy, but still good acustic quality for theater listening |
| 17:37.27 | Corrodias | beyond that i don't know much... especially i don't know of anything good for movement |
| 17:37.33 | AnduinLothar | which basicly means inear is the only way |
| 17:37.48 | AnduinLothar | but the good inear ones start at about $80 |
| 17:38.10 | Corrodias | aren't there some that go around the back of your head and hold onto the ears from the front? |
| 17:38.59 | AnduinLothar | some, ya |
| 17:39.24 | Shouryuu | I have some of those |
| 17:39.25 | AnduinLothar | i dont liek those as much because they require you to put them over your head to put on |
| 17:39.39 | AnduinLothar | i'd rather hav sepperate ear clips |
| 17:39.46 | AnduinLothar | not connected |
| 17:39.57 | Corrodias | i love my v150's... they're quick to toss on or rip off and will not be expensive to replace if i break them. |
| 17:40.39 | AnduinLothar | i spose i could try the koss clipons |
| 17:40.43 | AnduinLothar | $20 |
| 17:40.46 | Corrodias | i have to spend some moments seating the 600's on my head if i want to wear those and it's too inconvenient when there is anybody else around |
| 17:41.16 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kirkburn (n=George@151.56.232.176) |
| 17:41.26 | AnduinLothar | i wish i could go bluetooth wireless, but the tech isn't quite ripe yet |
| 17:41.32 | Kirkburn | Cair, what's the discord situation? |
| 17:41.36 | Shouryuu | hummm milano mintsss |
| 17:41.40 | Cairenn | Kirkburn: ? |
| 17:41.47 | Kirkburn | The website |
| 17:42.06 | Cairenn | http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4047 |
| 17:42.32 | AnduinLothar | if i went in ear i'd prolly just bite the price and go with the Ultimate Ears super.fi 3 Studio Black |
| 17:42.37 | AnduinLothar | $100 |
| 17:42.39 | Kirkburn | So, er, it didn't happen? |
| 17:43.06 | Corrodias | they'd better sound good for that price |
| 17:43.26 | AnduinLothar | best rated in-ear monitors for under $300 |
| 17:43.33 | Corrodias | excellent |
| 17:43.40 | Corrodias | in-ear means ear buds, right? |
| 17:43.44 | AnduinLothar | no |
| 17:43.52 | Cairenn | these were what we picked up for our daughter for christmas: http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10066523&catid=# |
| 17:43.57 | AnduinLothar | ear buds sit outside your ear canel |
| 17:44.11 | AnduinLothar | in-ear go inside your ear canal |
| 17:44.12 | Corrodias | you're talking about the kind with tubes that go inside? |
| 17:44.20 | AnduinLothar | http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/in-ear-monitor/ultimate-ears-superfi-3-studio-black.php |
| 17:44.36 | AnduinLothar | similar with tubes: http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/in-ear-monitor/etymotic-er-6i.php |
| 17:44.58 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Tem@ip70-177-40-169.br.br.cox.net) |
| 17:45.09 | Cairenn | Sennheiser is a really good name for audio |
| 17:45.09 | AnduinLothar | i saw those cair, they're well rated |
| 17:45.20 | Kirkburn | Indeed |
| 17:45.25 | AnduinLothar | best in class i think for open over the head |
| 17:45.38 | Corrodias | i prefer closed >_> |
| 17:45.39 | AnduinLothar | but i don't want either.. |
| 17:46.09 | AnduinLothar | i'd rather have IEM or closed, but closed suck fro skating |
| 17:46.12 | Kirkburn | In-ear one's both make my ears ache and fall out all the time :s |
| 17:46.45 | AnduinLothar | ya, the falling out is tough while skating, that's why i like the wrap around the ear type cause even if they come out they dont fall off |
| 17:46.49 | Kirkburn | (er, ear buds even, sicne someone just pointed there's a difference) |
| 17:47.17 | AnduinLothar | but even with bud i wrap the cord around my ear |
| 17:47.33 | AnduinLothar | makes for less pain if they get yanked too |
| 17:48.08 | Kirkburn | I like one's that go round the back of your head best |
| 17:48.09 | AnduinLothar | yay: The symmetrical 46-inch "Y" cord can be looped behind the ears to reduce cable noise and avoid cable obstructions and has a cable adjustor to snug the cord to the back of the neck. |
| 17:48.44 | AnduinLothar | two-year warranty and black leather case |
| 17:48.50 | AnduinLothar | i'm tempted |
| 17:49.15 | Tem | you know the ones that go in your ear do more damage to your hearing than normal headpones |
| 17:49.21 | Tem | s/pones/phones/ |
| 17:49.25 | AnduinLothar | onyl if you listen louder |
| 17:49.39 | AnduinLothar | the think about in-ear is you only need half the volume |
| 17:49.47 | Kirkburn | Yeah |
| 17:49.54 | AnduinLothar | because it's a seal that keeps out noise |
| 17:49.55 | Kirkburn | Since there's no background noise to block out |
| 17:50.20 | AnduinLothar | so it's not really any worse unless you're counting on leaving the volume level the same |
| 17:50.29 | Kirkburn | It weird how iPods have brought up the whole arguement again |
| 17:50.30 | AnduinLothar | which would pretty much hurt |
| 17:50.41 | Kirkburn | Hello, jouranlists, we did this with Walkmans? |
| 17:50.46 | Kirkburn | *journalists |
| 17:50.47 | Corrodias | it's strange... my headphones don't seem to block out any noise, but if they're playing anything, they quickly block out everything but themselves |
| 17:50.58 | AnduinLothar | :P |
| 17:51.05 | Kirkburn | Noise cancelling |
| 17:51.19 | Kirkburn | It's very cool |
| 17:51.30 | Corrodias | it's not that.. |
| 17:51.36 | AnduinLothar | noise canceling is only really good for people who fly or take public transit a lot i think |
| 17:51.44 | Kirkburn | Well, then maybe your ears are just adjusting |
| 17:52.04 | Corrodias | i can still hear the other sounds but only during quiet moments. you are correct, they just sort of drown it all out |
| 17:52.06 | AnduinLothar | tho it might be good for this room, canceling out the drone from 3 computers |
| 17:52.35 | Tem | it does very, very well for canceling white noise |
| 17:52.50 | AnduinLothar | ya, my father has a pair i like |
| 17:52.51 | Tem | not so much for active noise like people talking |
| 17:52.55 | AnduinLothar | right |
| 17:52.58 | Cairenn | thought about getting her the same ones except with the noise cancelling, since she spends over an hour on the bus each way every day |
| 17:53.14 | AnduinLothar | more expensive and need batteries :/ |
| 17:53.24 | Cairenn | that's why I didn't |
| 17:53.30 | Tem | only 1 triple A |
| 17:53.31 | AnduinLothar | batteries are bad in headphones |
| 17:54.01 | Tem | and the battery is only needed when you have the noise cancellation on |
| 17:54.03 | AnduinLothar | mmm, i think i'm gonna splurge and get those UE ones |
| 17:54.49 | AnduinLothar | my friend was gonna get me a pair of headphones for xmas but they never got to me so he returned them, i'll just have him put that money towards these and i'll pay the rest |
| 17:54.58 | JoshBorke | Adrine: you here? |
| 17:54.58 | Kirkburn | Someone needs to stop me installing beta software on my computer all the time :s |
| 17:55.01 | Corrodias | great idea |
| 17:55.20 | Kirkburn | I get between 1 to 8 error msgs every time I shut down |
| 17:55.29 | Corrodias | beta software? i can't even stand to install well-known software until i test it on another computer first >_> |
| 17:55.31 | Adrine | JoshBorke: Yup |
| 17:55.40 | AnduinLothar | cause i've needed new headphones for 3 months now, it'd gettign rediculous with the ones i got killing my ears |
| 17:55.59 | Corrodias | why, what's wrong with them? |
| 17:56.12 | JoshBorke | Adrine: for your healcap, i think you should disregard crit heals when calculating overhealing (if you calculate that) |
| 17:56.20 | Kirkburn | (IE7 Beta 2 Preview, Windowblinds beta, Iconpackager beta, WindowFX beta...) |
| 17:56.31 | Adrine | I'm not calculating overhealing at the moment |
| 17:56.35 | Corrodias | joshie makes a good point |
| 17:56.41 | Adrine | Just breaking it down by your health when the heal was cast on you |
| 17:56.48 | JoshBorke | Corrodias: don't call me that :-P |
| 17:56.49 | Corrodias | you're one of them appearance customizers, eh? |
| 17:56.50 | Adrine | Since that's really the important bit in regards to overhealing |
| 17:57.01 | Adrine | If I'm getting hit with gheal when I'm at 90% HP, there's a problem :P |
| 17:57.02 | JoshBorke | Adrine: indeed |
| 17:57.09 | Kirkburn | Corrodias, but of course :) |
| 17:57.11 | AnduinLothar | they're philips ones, pretty decent.. kind of a half bud/half in-ear style i'd never seen before. but the rubbers have long since gotten lost and so they are a little scrapy and fall out a lot and they've been through the wash |
| 17:57.24 | Corrodias | i choose a visual style, but i fear i don't get into any other customization |
| 17:57.27 | Kirkburn | Object Desktop, one of the best purchases I've made |
| 17:57.29 | Adrine | It's a different approach, but I think it'll be more effective than overheal numbers |
| 17:57.39 | JoshBorke | Adrine: i agree, i like your thinking :-) |
| 17:57.43 | Adrine | Since those are prone to skewing with crits and PoH |
| 17:57.47 | Corrodias | even cursors annoy me because i have yet to find a set i like besides "inside your computer" from the windows 95 Plus! pack |
| 17:58.05 | Kirkburn | I have a suggestion for you then |
| 17:58.15 | Adrine | (When I play my priest, I abuse the hell out of PoH, since it costs as much mana as 2 flash heals with approximately the same return) |
| 17:58.19 | Kirkburn | CursorXP |
| 17:58.41 | Adrine | If 2 people in my party are down ~1k HP or more and don't need emergency care, PoH time. :D |
| 17:58.41 | Adrine | <--- world's laziest healer |
| 17:58.47 | Kirkburn | (go to Wincustomize for lots of cursor packs) |
| 17:59.03 | Corrodias | i have tried cursorxp. it felt unnatural |
| 17:59.28 | Kirkburn | My current isn't one of those stupid one's, it's really nice ... I'll find a link |
| 17:59.30 | Corrodias | it overrides the cursors instead of setting them in windows. besides, the cursors were all big and flashy and just not my style |
| 17:59.56 | Corrodias | maybe i'll give it another shot on the new computer |
| 18:00.04 | Kirkburn | I don't know about it overriding windows, it's appears instead of the normal window |
| 18:00.15 | Corrodias | *normal cursor, you mean? |
| 18:00.24 | Kirkburn | (goddamn, my apostrophes are bad today) |
| 18:00.36 | Kirkburn | I meant the config window |
| 18:01.10 | Kirkburn | http://www.crystalxp.net/galerie/img/th2_112.jpg |
| 18:01.31 | Kirkburn | (the little blue earth rotates :) |
| 18:01.37 | Corrodias | those aren't so bad.. |
| 18:02.04 | Kirkburn | I think I've been using them for about 3 years now ... never found a nicer set |
| 18:02.10 | Corrodias | sigh, it also takes so much time to browse all the stuff available and decide what you want to try. i have spent days upon days reviewing visual styles |
| 18:02.25 | Kirkburn | It's not uncommon for people to think I'm running a Mac |
| 18:02.50 | Kirkburn | (and it doesn't look like one, no) |
| 18:03.01 | Corrodias | lol |
| 18:03.17 | Kirkburn | It's a sorry statement on the 'beauty' of windows |
| 18:03.22 | AnduinLothar | i used to customize a lot. it takes up a lot of time tho and i find myself having more important things to do |
| 18:03.39 | Corrodias | ugh, i shudder to think of the time i've spent clicking around at deviantart, seeing the multitudes of visual styles |
| 18:04.21 | Kirkburn | I used to, too ... but I've settled on three things now ... Thallos for the skin, Gant for the icons and BlueCrystal for the cursor. Just beautiful :) |
| 18:04.40 | Corrodias | i think part of what annoys me about any new visual style or cursor set is that i'm not used to it, so it's "different" |
| 18:04.56 | Kirkburn | I can't stand most of the 'alternative' skins that turn up |
| 18:05.08 | Kirkburn | The ones that look like they were designed by blind people |
| 18:05.15 | Corrodias | Bette Midler - The Wind Beneath My Wings |
| 18:05.28 | Corrodias | lol.. let's see, i should be able to find a link to the style i use |
| 18:06.20 | Kirkburn | Wincustomize seem to be populated to sets of people. Those who have no idea of style and say "well done" to bright luminescent 'Paint' skins. And then those who are professionals who actually make nice skins which you can *use* |
| 18:06.28 | Corrodias | http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/1119658/ |
| 18:06.30 | Kirkburn | *bye two sets |
| 18:06.53 | Corrodias | i don't use any alternate icons, just the style |
| 18:07.08 | Kirkburn | Quite nice |
| 18:07.35 | Corrodias | thin taskbar styles are pretty much necessary, now, since i use a 4-line taskbar |
| 18:07.51 | Kirkburn | Well, I reply with http://www.deviantart.com/view/28997666/ |
| 18:08.02 | Kirkburn | (and I thought 2 line was enough) |
| 18:08.32 | Kirkburn | The skin is transparent, too :P |
| 18:08.46 | Corrodias | that's pretty nice... i shall save it |
| 18:09.34 | Kirkburn | That one needs WB, there's a Windows visual style on there too, under Thallos VS |
| 18:09.49 | Corrodias | that one was submitted some time since my last crawl across what is available... |
| 18:10.01 | AnduinLothar | dock ftw |
| 18:10.09 | Kirkburn | Which dock? |
| 18:10.15 | Corrodias | i find no matches for "thallos vs" |
| 18:10.25 | Kirkburn | google |
| 18:10.53 | Kirkburn | (Nope, no idea why the dA search doesn't find it either) |
| 18:11.18 | Corrodias | does your cursor set require cursorxp? |
| 18:11.20 | Kirkburn | And to complete the set, my icon set http://www.wincustomize.com/Preview.aspx?Source=DoctorNick/ip/1289.jpg |
| 18:11.36 | Corrodias | eh, i like the windows icons, thanks :) |
| 18:11.39 | Kirkburn | Interesting question, probably |
| 18:12.42 | Corrodias | depends on if it's a set of .cur/.ani files or a .cursorxp file (basically a .zip with image files inside) |
| 18:13.06 | Cairenn | http://tkingart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41 |
| 18:13.17 | Kirkburn | I extracted the .cursorxp file, it's made up of .png :( |
| 18:13.20 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Crispix (n=Crispy@c-24-7-241-103.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
| 18:14.30 | Corrodias | i'll have to see about acquiring cursorxp again. well, it's time to pack the mouse and such and go home! bye |
| 18:14.40 | Cairenn | later Corrodias |
| 18:14.51 | Corrodias | thanks for your suggestions, too |
| 18:14.57 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 18:14.59 | Kirkburn | Taraa |
| 18:15.10 | Cairenn | I love the T.King themes |
| 18:15.45 | Kirkburn | Yeah it's cool |
| 18:16.10 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Adrine (n=Adrine@208.187.119.42) |
| 18:16.21 | Kirkburn | I didn't realise just how many file formats are just renamed .zip files ... I suppose it makes the devs look more professional :P |
| 18:16.46 | Adrine | Hehe, yeah |
| 18:16.55 | Kirkburn | The new Office file format will just be xml |
| 18:17.28 | Kirkburn | I mean, they'll be coded *in* xml |
| 18:17.45 | Kirkburn | Which is pretty cool, easy editing |
| 18:19.48 | Kirkburn | The whole mods getting banned thing still isn't dieing down :( Now the roleplaying community is up in arms about the supposed banning of Flag-RSP |
| 18:21.17 | Cairenn | le sigh |
| 18:21.35 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot|afk (n=esnickel@ip-66-80-2-118.dsl.sca.megapath.net) |
| 18:21.38 | Gryphen | le mew |
| 18:22.53 | Kirkburn | le pew pew |
| 18:24.54 | Kirkburn | Just in from Aeus: Recently, players expressed some concern over the use of programmable gaming peripherals while playing World of Warcraft. We want to make sure it's clear that creating hotkeys for certain actions in the game is ok. However, if these peripherals are used to automate gameplay to the point where the player is able to conduct repeated actions in the game without paying attention, then that will constitute a violation of our game poli |
| 18:24.54 | Kirkburn | cies. The use of sustained automated play grants an unfair advantage over players who earn their achievements by actively playing through the game as it was designed. In the interest of maintaining an even playing field for all players, we will investigate reports of automated play and take action as needed to prevent this from occurring in the game. |
| 18:25.23 | Cairenn | good |
| 18:25.37 | Cairenn | that should put an end to it |
| 18:25.51 | Cairenn | okay, so I'm being optimistic |
| 18:26.00 | Kirkburn | Oh and in answer to Anvilbeard's followup question "So does the simple action of using third party software to create delays in macros constitute an offence?" |
| 18:26.02 | Shouryuu | OK curious george is a very poor movie |
| 18:26.11 | Kirkburn | "I'm sure if you search your conscience you will find an answer to that question, Anvil ;)" |
| 18:26.18 | *** part/#wowi-lounge Adrine (n=Adrine@208.187.119.42) |
| 18:26.24 | Kirkburn | So that's not a definite no, but near enough |
| 18:26.32 | Cairenn | indeed |
| 18:26.38 | Cairenn | link, pretty please? |
| 18:26.45 | Kirkburn | (I mean yes, well you now what I meant) |
| 18:26.55 | Kirkburn | http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general-en&t=899630 |
| 18:27.43 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Tem@ip70-177-40-169.br.br.cox.net) |
| 18:28.11 | Kirkburn | Hey cool! Blizz EU are doing a WG battlegrounds thing too! |
| 18:28.20 | AnduinLothar | not one really liked the 'turbo' buttons on the old 3rd party NES controlers... just felt like cheating.. but then the same people bought game genies... |
| 18:28.24 | Kirkburn | ... also horde :) |
| 18:28.29 | AnduinLothar | no one* |
| 18:28.37 | JoshBorke | i loved my turbo buttons |
| 18:28.40 | JoshBorke | :-D |
| 18:28.45 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Adrine (n=Adrine@208.187.119.42) |
| 18:28.45 | JoshBorke | but didn't like the thought of game genies |
| 18:29.09 | Kirkburn | They'd grant your wishes and you'd always end up worse off |
| 18:29.11 | AnduinLothar | i liked game genies cause you could generate your own codes that woudl have random effects |
| 18:29.21 | Kirkburn | Only three times though, surely? |
| 18:29.39 | JoshBorke | unless you wished them free |
| 18:30.06 | Kirkburn | I thought that it was in the ToS that you couldn't wish that? |
| 18:30.20 | AnduinLothar | *rolls eyes* |
| 18:30.25 | AnduinLothar | *me poofs |
| 18:30.28 | AnduinLothar | blah |
| 18:30.31 | AnduinLothar | grr |
| 18:30.36 | Cairenn | later AnduinLothar |
| 18:31.36 | AnduinLothar | /me is rebooting his brain |
| 18:31.40 | AnduinLothar | CRAP! |
| 18:31.51 | Kirkburn | Eh? |
| 18:31.53 | AnduinLothar | *system failure* |
| 18:32.06 | Kirkburn | Why didn't that work? |
| 18:32.30 | Kirkburn | (I've lost my titlebar, so I haven't clicked exit yet ...) |
| 18:33.23 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot|afk (n=esnickel@ip-66-80-2-118.dsl.sca.megapath.net) |
| 18:33.24 | Kirkburn | Aha, it's back |
| 18:33.24 | Qzot|afk | You can't get rid of me *that* easily. |
| 18:38.19 | Cairenn | that man is making me crazy |
| 18:39.38 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kirkburn (n=George@151.56.232.176) |
| 18:40.25 | Kirkburn | Only seven error when I tried to shut down that time. rundll32, explorer, explorer, wb5traycontained, mcisomething, explorer ... what fun! |
| 18:41.12 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Adrine (n=Adrine@208.187.119.42) |
| 18:47.15 | *** join/#wowi-lounge [MoonWolf] (i=moonwolf@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl) |
| 18:50.26 | Crispix | Does anyone know where you can buy ammo in theramore? |
| 18:50.52 | Cairenn | the chickie down by the gryphon master |
| 18:51.37 | Crispix | Thankes :D |
| 18:51.48 | Cairenn | np |
| 18:58.30 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=KCummins@proxy-ce3.disney.com) |
| 19:04.45 | JoshBorke | ok, so i'm trying to write a heal watcher for PvE raids |
| 19:05.49 | JoshBorke | basically, when you click on a target in the raid, it presents a list of people that are in the process of healing that person |
| 19:06.45 | JoshBorke | i'm ok with the fact that i'll never be able to always have the right targets for heals |
| 19:09.47 | JoshBorke | but i'm just a little hung up on getting what i think the targets are |
| 19:11.01 | JoshBorke | i'll have to use CHAT_MSG_SPELL_FRIENDLYPLAYER_BUFF and watch for (%s+) begins to cast (%s+) for the spell name and person. but i'll have to have an array to go from player name -> raid id, correct? |
| 19:12.44 | Shouryuu | I guess |
| 19:12.58 | Shouryuu | although what you're trying to do seems insanely difficult (to my eyes) but I guess |
| 19:13.17 | JoshBorke | Shouryuu: i know :-/ |
| 19:13.32 | Shouryuu | hehe |
| 19:14.07 | JoshBorke | my other question is how much lag is incurred from passing information through a channel? |
| 19:16.26 | Kirkburn | I'm so sorry: Chuck was once on Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. He spun first. The rest of the show consisted of everyone standing around awkwardly waiting for the wheel to stop spinning. |
| 19:16.48 | JoshBorke | :-( |
| 19:17.19 | Kirkburn | Well, surely it depends on the machine sending/receiving and how much info |
| 19:19.00 | JoshBorke | say 20 people saying a 50 character string at one time every 1 second |
| 19:19.17 | Kirkburn | WHy don't you just make a hammer instead |
| 19:19.24 | JoshBorke | lol |
| 19:19.24 | Kirkburn | Get the job done quicker |
| 19:19.39 | JoshBorke | that's what i was thinking also :-) |
| 19:19.43 | Adrine | There is a delay long enough that I think the info would be relatively useless, JoshBorke |
| 19:20.05 | Adrine | What you -could- do though... |
| 19:20.13 | Kirkburn | Only send info when targetting? |
| 19:20.14 | Adrine | ...is watch the combat log and show who has recently been healing your target |
| 19:20.31 | Adrine | So you have an idea of who else/how many others are healing your target |
| 19:20.40 | JoshBorke | Kirkburn: it would only send "Name" "Spell" "Duration" when they cast |
| 19:20.58 | Kirkburn | I just read the rest of what you wrote, I see now |
| 19:21.55 | JoshBorke | Adrine: so have it predict who that person is healing? |
| 19:22.10 | JoshBorke | what sort of logic would i use? |
| 19:22.49 | Adrine | Not really predict |
| 19:23.06 | Adrine | Just provide a short-term history, so in the last 10 sec, my target has been healed by A and B, for example |
| 19:23.24 | Adrine | Though I guess it dpeends what you're trying to do :) |
| 19:23.37 | JoshBorke | hrm, i'm more of trying to help prevent people double-healing when they don't need to |
| 19:24.00 | Shouryuu | argrhhh I need to find something to do |
| 19:24.11 | Kirkburn | Talk shop. |
| 19:24.17 | Adrine | I think that given chat lag time and heal cast time, without the use of SpellStopCasting(); to stop it automatically, it may not provide neough time. |
| 19:24.24 | Adrine | I very well may be wrong though. |
| 19:24.30 | Kirkburn | Grow an orange |
| 19:24.37 | Kirkburn | Start a hamster farm |
| 19:24.42 | Shouryuu | I mean *now* |
| 19:24.49 | Kirkburn | Okay, then |
| 19:24.54 | Kirkburn | Talk shop now. |
| 19:24.57 | Kirkburn | Grow an orange now. |
| 19:25.01 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 19:25.02 | Kirkburn | Start a hamster farm now. |
| 19:25.24 | Kirkburn | Eat your mousepad |
| 19:25.36 | Shouryuu | I'm on a laptop |
| 19:25.48 | Kirkburn | So am I |
| 19:25.55 | Kirkburn | I can afford a mouse, however |
| 19:26.06 | JoshBorke | Adrine: hm. but would listening for "Person begins to cast Greater Heal" be enough time to pop-up a bar showing the heal incoming? |
| 19:26.40 | Kirkburn | See what effect syrup has on your monitor |
| 19:26.48 | Kirkburn | Stab a banana |
| 19:27.10 | Kirkburn | Form a cohesive argument for the banning of chocolate |
| 19:27.15 | Kirkburn | Form a band |
| 19:27.29 | Kirkburn | Buy a lollipop |
| 19:27.36 | Kirkburn | Get kicked for spamming |
| 19:28.06 | Kirkburn | Buy some spam |
| 19:28.37 | JoshBorke | ok, general lua question |
| 19:28.54 | Kirkburn | I don't think he's online |
| 19:29.06 | *** join/#wowi-lounge End (n=end@c-67-161-159-86.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 19:29.20 | Kirkburn | (General Lua, hahaha... okay, well it was funnier in my head) |
| 19:29.39 | JoshBorke | if i have a global table, and i say "local table = gtable", is local table just a pointer to gtable? |
| 19:31.38 | JoshBorke | and yes kirkburn, it was mildly entertaining :-P |
| 19:32.06 | Kirkburn | Mildly :( |
| 19:32.18 | Adrine | JoshBorke: Basically, yes |
| 19:32.26 | Kirkburn | I need an anti-crastination machine! |
| 19:32.56 | Adrine | As far as listening, sure, that should be possible |
| 19:33.29 | Adrine | If they're not using cast->click to target, then you can get IsTargetTarget("target", "raidXtarget") to determine if their target is your target, I think |
| 19:34.12 | Wobin_ | ow. |
| 19:34.18 | Wobin_ | all armour at 0% =P |
| 19:34.30 | JoshBorke | ok, so the reverse case, 'gtable = ltable' will act the same way |
| 19:34.35 | Wobin_ | And I only managed one of my BRD quests |
| 19:34.36 | Adrine | Yeah |
| 19:34.54 | Adrine | If you need to copy a table, iterate it and assign newtable[key] = value; |
| 19:35.02 | Adrine | Though there may be a more efficient way of doing that :P |
| 19:35.10 | Adrine | for k,v in oldtable do newtable[k] = v; end |
| 19:35.28 | JoshBorke | so gtable won't be nil'd when i exit from ltable's scope |
| 19:35.44 | Adrine | I..I'm not sure |
| 19:36.04 | JoshBorke | oh no, my life is ruined :-9 |
| 19:36.07 | JoshBorke | ~help |
| 19:36.22 | Kirkburn | ~8ball Help him? |
| 19:36.23 | purl | No. |
| 19:36.28 | Adrine | Muahaha. |
| 19:37.48 | JoshBorke | :-( |
| 19:39.49 | JoshBorke | i'm sure leg knows for sure |
| 19:39.54 | JoshBorke | oh well, i'm sure it'll be fine |
| 19:42.35 | JoshBorke | is table.getn just as fast as keeping a 'n' value in the table? |
| 19:42.52 | Adrine | Likely, but I'd have to look at the lua internals to be sure |
| 19:43.16 | JoshBorke | but it would be safe to assume i could use them interchangeably without caring? |
| 19:43.42 | *** join/#wowi-lounge kaiden (n=kaiden@63.251.174.3) |
| 19:44.13 | kaiden | Heya Cide, is there a quick function for targetting the seperate mt's designated within CT? been looking through the code tyring to find a variable or anything but it's giving me a headache :P |
| 19:44.36 | Cide | CT_RA_TargetMT(#)? |
| 19:44.38 | Cide | I believe |
| 19:44.49 | Cide | where # would be the MT id |
| 19:45.15 | kaiden | hrmph, could have sworn i tried that when trying the emergency monitor targetting oh well back to the drawing board |
| 19:45.17 | kaiden | thanks! |
| 19:47.02 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kirov (n=Kirov@adsl-64-161-16-97.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) |
| 19:47.04 | Cide | it should work :) it hasn't failed me so far |
| 19:55.55 | Kirov | Anyone here know much about memory usage overhead in mods? |
| 19:56.12 | Adrine | What specifically? |
| 19:56.57 | Kirov | Well, are you familiar with ItemSync or LootLink enhanced? |
| 19:57.09 | Adrine | Just the stock lootlink, really :) |
| 19:57.27 | Kirov | Well, I'm working on LootLInk enhanced right now. |
| 19:58.01 | Kirov | I have a cleaning function that goes over all of your links and tries to clean them up (fix anything that's wrong with them, remove duplicate items, etc.) |
| 19:58.37 | Kirov | However, when it's running I'm loosing like 400-500 kb of memory a second |
| 19:58.48 | Adrine | Wow. Ouch. |
| 19:58.54 | Adrine | Creating lots of tables? |
| 19:58.56 | Kirov | so, it hitches constantly as it hits the gc limit |
| 19:59.31 | Kirov | Well, sort of. |
| 19:59.44 | Kirov | hmm... |
| 19:59.46 | Kirov | actually, yes |
| 19:59.54 | Adrine | I'd try to reuse tables where possible |
| 20:00.45 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (n=the_real@62.61.134.59.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 20:01.21 | Kirov | what happens to table elements that are nilled or tremoved? |
| 20:01.31 | Kirov | Do they linger in memory till gc? |
| 20:01.34 | Maldivia | yep |
| 20:01.59 | kaiden | Anyone have any cyanide i can take.. |
| 20:02.07 | kaiden | i just saw a lvl 50 warrior with glowing brightwood staff equipped |
| 20:02.12 | Adrine | Hahahahaha |
| 20:02.15 | Kirov | ... |
| 20:02.16 | Shadowd | haha |
| 20:02.36 | kaiden | i'm so tempted to whisper him and ask him if anyones called him a f'in moron yet |
| 20:02.46 | Adrine | Ask if you can buy it for 1200g |
| 20:02.49 | Maldivia | Kirov: it's impossible to know, if the element that was referenced from the table is referenced elsewhere until a GC sweep |
| 20:02.56 | Adrine | "Oh, it's soulbound? *cry*" |
| 20:03.15 | Shadowd | kaiden: do it |
| 20:04.48 | Kirov | hmm |
| 20:05.09 | JoshBorke | Kirov: like adrine said, it's best to reuse tables if you can |
| 20:05.23 | Kirov | not quite sure if thats possible |
| 20:06.03 | Kirov | I'm basically taking a table of tables and resorting them. |
| 20:06.15 | Adrine | pastebin some code? |
| 20:06.29 | Kirov | sure, this is going to make your eyes bleed though |
| 20:06.33 | Adrine | Hehe, that's fine |
| 20:07.16 | Kirov | http://pastebin.com/607940 |
| 20:07.45 | JoshBorke | s/;$// |
| 20:08.24 | Kirov | LootLink enhanced allows for multiple items with the same name via a really ugly hack of keeping all duplicate items in a table inside the main item. |
| 20:08.39 | Kirov | Keeps backwards compatibility, but ugly as hell. |
| 20:08.47 | Kirov | And makes sorting a bitch |
| 20:10.20 | JoshBorke | i'm a nub, so is this a correct statement? all of the tables in sortIndex are hanging around until GC? |
| 20:10.25 | Adrine | ItemLinks is a table of ["item name"] = standard_blizzard_item_link, yes? |
| 20:10.42 | Kirov | nope |
| 20:11.00 | *** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower_ (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net) |
| 20:11.03 | Kirov | let me paste bin an example item |
| 20:11.06 | Adrine | Awesome |
| 20:11.07 | JoshBorke | i don't think you need ItemLinks[name] = {}; ItemLinks[name] = newval |
| 20:11.21 | JoshBorke | because you're creating a table and then removing the reference to it |
| 20:13.43 | Kirov | ... |
| 20:13.47 | Kirov | computer not happy ... |
| 20:14.10 | Kirov | takes like 30 seconds to open a folder ... |
| 20:15.30 | Kirov | hmm |
| 20:16.19 | Kirov | You'll have to ignore some of this... http://pastebin.com/607950 |
| 20:16.27 | Adrine | No problem |
| 20:16.35 | Kirov | Partially implemented lzw compression on the tooltips |
| 20:16.45 | Adrine | Hah, was wondering if that's what it was. |
| 20:17.32 | Adrine | So you're sorting by the colon-delimited number list, essentially |
| 20:17.40 | Kirov | Yes |
| 20:17.45 | Adrine | Hm, ok. |
| 20:18.06 | Kirov | Sorting by the first integer, then the third, then the second |
| 20:18.20 | Kirov | itemId, secondary or bonusId, and enchant |
| 20:18.51 | Kirov | this isn't actually a perfect example as the itemId of the second item should be different from the first. |
| 20:20.08 | Kirov | http://pastebin.com/607966 |
| 20:20.12 | Kirov | that's more accurate |
| 20:21.17 | Kirov | the function I posted earlier would take this list and put 19821 as the base item, then resort the rest of them from highest to lowest |
| 20:26.37 | JoshBorke | wel,l it's too complex for me to be of any help |
| 20:26.45 | End | heheh. "When you see programmers writing software, what does it look like they're really doing? Are the results of their work immediately apparent, as with carpenters, painters, and plumbers? Or do you get the impression they're just pressing buttons randomly because they hope a piece of cheese will appear in the wall dispenser the way it always used to back in the good old days?" |
| 20:27.14 | Kirov | lol |
| 20:28.10 | JoshBorke | ~log |
| 20:28.11 | purl | i heard log is as piece of wood |
| 20:28.16 | JoshBorke | ~logs |
| 20:28.17 | purl | apt/ibot/jbot/purl all log to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz, or updated "nightly" |
| 20:32.33 | End | ~fart |
| 20:32.34 | purl | ACTION farts, releasing large quantities of methane and sulfur dioxide. "Evacuate the channel! GO! *gag* SAVE YOURSELVES *cough* MOVE *choke* MOVE!" |
| 20:33.27 | Adrine | Kirov: |
| 20:34.01 | Adrine | I don't know if this is any more memory efficient (think it is!), but it keeps the "9 loops per sort" without invoking any tables |
| 20:34.20 | Adrine | http://wow.pastebin.com/607984 |
| 20:34.43 | Adrine | well, that's 9 loops worst case |
| 20:35.00 | Adrine | Best case is that it hits in the first loop :) |
| 20:37.28 | Tem | why not use table.sort? (I haven't looked yet) |
| 20:37.37 | Adrine | He is |
| 20:37.41 | JoshBorke | Tem: he is, but with a custom sort |
| 20:37.42 | Tem | table.sort is in C land so it's likely faster than anything we could write |
| 20:37.44 | Adrine | It's the custom sort method that we think is killing performance |
| 20:37.51 | Tem | aha |
| 20:37.55 | Adrine | That's the comparison function :) |
| 20:37.58 | JoshBorke | and by we he means Adrine :-D |
| 20:44.35 | JoshBorke | http://wow.pastebin.com/608001 would the for loop not be run if the string.gfind didn't match? |
| 20:44.58 | Adrine | Correct |
| 20:45.10 | JoshBorke | that's pretty cool |
| 20:45.27 | Adrine | Well, if it doesn't match, there are zero iterations to iterate over :) |
| 20:45.27 | JoshBorke | Wobin_: i recommend that trick for the lua tricks wiki |
| 20:45.41 | JoshBorke | i see |
| 20:53.00 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Kolth (n=amoeba@c-24-22-17-70.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 20:56.23 | MentalPower | what is the most locale-friendly way to get the current language (Common, Orcish, etc) |
| 20:58.47 | Kolth | http://www.wowwiki.com/Localisation |
| 20:58.50 | Kolth | zat vay |
| 20:59.02 | Kolth | oh |
| 20:59.05 | JoshBorke | lol |
| 20:59.09 | Kolth | I halfread your sentence. |
| 20:59.36 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 20:59.53 | MentalPower | erm... yeah |
| 21:00.08 | Kolth | I gave up parenthesis. |
| 21:00.28 | Kolth | I got addicted to 'em back in high school and had to enter Parenthesis Anonymous |
| 21:01.00 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:01.05 | Kirkburn | Only singular ones? |
| 21:01.23 | Kolth | That would be a correct correction, Kirkburn :) |
| 21:01.32 | Kirkburn | <-- picky bastard |
| 21:01.44 | Kolth | It's not picky when I'm wrong. |
| 21:02.08 | Kirkburn | <-- picky bastard when Kolth isn't wrong too ;) |
| 21:03.08 | Kirkburn | I was just looking at the logs ... I didn't realise it was open season on attacking the api :P |
| 21:04.00 | Miravlix | Hmm, all those MoveMent triggering addons can't they just use CURSOR_UPDATE event? |
| 21:05.02 | Adrine | I'd suspect that doesn't qualify as a hardware event for spellcasting |
| 21:05.29 | Shouryuu | aye |
| 21:05.41 | Shouryuu | and my internet is playing with my head again |
| 21:07.03 | Kirkburn | Didn't you take my advice earlier? |
| 21:08.56 | Shouryuu | I hate the person who invented bubble gum |
| 21:09.05 | Shouryuu | Haven't had time yet |
| 21:09.07 | Shouryuu | been busy |
| 21:09.17 | Kirkburn | Ah, I can't cope with FF :( |
| 21:09.22 | Shouryuu | and I'm France, everyhting is closed starting 7 :( |
| 21:09.37 | Kirkburn | Well go to riot then |
| 21:09.39 | Shouryuu | and I need to find a way to translate what you told me in French as well |
| 21:09.41 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:09.42 | Shouryuu | I will! |
| 21:12.17 | Kirkburn | I await your picture on the BBC News |
| 21:12.33 | Tain | Throw some stinky cheese at them! |
| 21:12.45 | Kirkburn | *Shouryuu overthrows French government, installs Murlocs as police* |
| 21:13.01 | Shouryuu | Well the word riot isn't actually adequat, their more like demonstrations |
| 21:13.06 | Kirkburn | Murgluglglglgllgl |
| 21:13.09 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:13.18 | Tain | I can't tell the difference. :( |
| 21:13.19 | Kirkburn | (that sounds french to me) |
| 21:13.26 | Kirkburn | hehe |
| 21:13.43 | Shouryuu | well riots are violent |
| 21:13.49 | Shouryuu | demonstrations are peacefull |
| 21:13.53 | Shouryuu | *peaceful |
| 21:14.09 | Kirkburn | Unless you turn up |
| 21:14.32 | Kirkburn | It all goes downhill from there :P |
| 21:15.14 | Kirkburn | I never thought I'd manage this, but I'm well over 50,000 downloads now |
| 21:15.48 | Shouryuu | and demonstrations are a good thing! |
| 21:15.51 | Shouryuu | 50 000 downloads on? |
| 21:16.08 | Kirkburn | a sunny beach |
| 21:16.23 | Kirkburn | in Guadeloupe |
| 21:16.37 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:16.59 | Kirkburn | There are some really obsessive francophone ClearFont users there |
| 21:17.40 | Kirkburn | They sit there with their laptops going click click click. In fact, they macroed the download button, so they can do it unattended. |
| 21:17.50 | Kirkburn | I'm sure they're gonna get banned soon ... |
| 21:18.17 | Shouryuu | Am I the only one not following what he's saying? |
| 21:18.28 | Kirkburn | OMG bLIzZ8RD bANNED d0wnloading! |
| 21:18.29 | JoshBorke | i'm totally lost |
| 21:18.47 | Kirkburn | I make myself smile, and that's what counts |
| 21:18.54 | Shouryuu | :P |
| 21:19.14 | Kirkburn | (and it was in relation to the whole G15/banned addons debacles) |
| 21:19.25 | Shouryuu | Your smile is infectious?: |
| 21:19.38 | Kirkburn | It's the Grinning Disease |
| 21:19.47 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:20.04 | Shouryuu | Run away, run away! |
| 21:23.26 | Kirkburn | Who is KDM? |
| 21:23.40 | Adrine | Caydiem |
| 21:23.55 | Adrine | Kay-Dee-Em :) |
| 21:24.43 | Kirkburn | Bah |
| 21:24.57 | Kirkburn | Took me a while. It's a stupid acronym anyway |
| 21:25.15 | Adrine | [1. General - Ironforge] who is TDK? |
| 21:25.24 | Kirkburn | Telvash del Kissel |
| 21:25.26 | Adrine | I know :) |
| 21:25.32 | Adrine | It just reminded me of that. |
| 21:25.33 | Kirkburn | I know too :) |
| 21:25.40 | Adrine | Also, I'm impressed you remembered that name so easily. |
| 21:25.44 | Kirkburn | heh |
| 21:25.59 | Kirkburn | I'm a book |
| 21:27.05 | Kirkburn | I have literally taken over the WoW Info section on my guild website's forum |
| 21:28.39 | Adrine | Someone should write a bot that attempts to answer commonly-asked questions in general. |
| 21:29.01 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:29.02 | JoshBorke | lol |
| 21:29.32 | Kirkburn | I know one |
| 21:29.40 | Adrine | SHE'S DEAD. GO SOUTH ON THE ROAD. SHE'S LYING THERE. DEAD. |
| 21:29.41 | Kirkburn | "/1 Thottbot" |
| 21:29.58 | kaiden | I have been contemplating doing that, i miss whats her name from EQ |
| 21:30.05 | kaiden | cross server message her for any info at all |
| 21:30.09 | kaiden | item links everything ;) |
| 21:30.32 | Kirkburn | Happy days ... http://www.battle.net/war3/pandaren/ |
| 21:30.44 | Adrine | Heh. This would be an interesting bot... |
| 21:30.56 | Adrine | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:30.58 | Tain | ~8ball Do you like other bots muscling in on your turf? |
| 21:30.59 | purl | No. |
| 21:31.13 | Adrine | [Wowbot] I have seen [Thrash Blade] on (go on to list 43 characters) |
| 21:31.35 | Tain | Oh we used to run an EQ bot that did equipment and spell lookups against Alla's database. |
| 21:31.42 | Adrine | Nice :) |
| 21:31.58 | Tain | So I'm sure someone must have done a WoW equivilent by now. |
| 21:34.21 | JoshBorke | ok, what would be a good way to experimentally determine if someone has improved healing talents? ie Greater Heal only takes 2.5 seconds to cast |
| 21:34.51 | JoshBorke | when they begin to cast record the time, when they finish the cast get the time, subtract and then just average that over a long period? |
| 21:34.56 | Adrine | Watch the combat log for "starts" and "finish" and the time between them and av...yeah |
| 21:35.12 | Adrine | You could calibrate it by timing non-improvable spells |
| 21:35.14 | JoshBorke | then throw out values with +1 and attribute to interruptions |
| 21:35.24 | kaiden | oh how i hope the pandaren are the new alliance race |
| 21:35.28 | kaiden | that would just be too darn cool |
| 21:35.38 | Kirkburn | Tbh honest, anything *is* possible |
| 21:35.42 | Adrine | ie, I know Flash Heal takes X time, it can't be sped up, it's taking x+y, so I can extrapolate that gheal takes (observed time)-y in reality. |
| 21:35.44 | JoshBorke | hm, CHAT_MSG_SPELL_FRIENDLYPLAYER_BUFF is only called when someone else casts, right? |
| 21:35.48 | kaiden | they've already said it WONT be pandarens though |
| 21:35.48 | kaiden | :( |
| 21:36.03 | Adrine | I want worgen. |
| 21:36.05 | Tain | I heard it's were-Zheva |
| 21:36.05 | JoshBorke | would i need to add in latency information? |
| 21:36.07 | kaiden | worgen are evil |
| 21:36.13 | kaiden | they would never be a playable race |
| 21:36.19 | Adrine | JoshBorke: See the suggestion about calibrating on a non-improvable spell |
| 21:36.20 | JoshBorke | i heard it was murlocs |
| 21:36.29 | Adrine | That would eliminate the need to guess at latency |
| 21:36.33 | Adrine | The evilness of worgen is debatable! |
| 21:36.42 | Adrine | First mention of them is as servants of Elune. |
| 21:36.42 | Kirkburn | not really |
| 21:36.46 | Kirkburn | Er |
| 21:36.52 | JoshBorke | Adrine: how does someone get friendly with the scarlet crusade? |
| 21:36.55 | Adrine | Scythe of Elune sort of thing? |
| 21:37.02 | Adrine | JoshBorke: Heheh, paging through my images directory? |
| 21:37.10 | JoshBorke | :X |
| 21:37.18 | Adrine | You have to kill a lot of Argent Dawn. >_> |
| 21:37.32 | JoshBorke | ew |
| 21:37.35 | Adrine | Either that, or be on the disguise quest and have a copy of photoshop. |
| 21:37.37 | Kirkburn | Worgen: read |
| 21:37.38 | Kirkburn | http://www.wowwiki.com/Worgen |
| 21:38.08 | JoshBorke | though i suppose you could do that. be friendly with both argent and sc |
| 21:38.15 | Adrine | Worgen need to not be evil so I can be one :( |
| 21:38.27 | Kirkburn | "the night elf Sentinel Velinde Starsong was given the task clear Felwood of demons. She prayed to Elune and was granted a magical Scythe which could summon Worgen" |
| 21:38.27 | JoshBorke | i wonder if that would make sm strat different |
| 21:38.55 | JoshBorke | get a 5-man group friendly with Scarlet Crusade and take them to see balnazzar |
| 21:39.00 | Kirkburn | There's def some kind of Elune connection, but what it is, we don't know |
| 21:39.00 | Osagasu | Worgen aren't evil. They're mindless and thralls of an extradimensional power. |
| 21:39.38 | Tain | I'm so using that defense at my trial. |
| 21:40.03 | [MoonWolf] | lol |
| 21:40.32 | Tain | Hah! I can use the defense that I plagurized at my plagurization trial! |
| 21:40.48 | [MoonWolf] | is it possible to be sued while in custody ? |
| 21:41.00 | JoshBorke | what? i thought it was the cool thing to do |
| 21:41.02 | Kirkburn | I see no reason why not |
| 21:41.21 | *** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot|afk (n=esnickel@ip-66-80-2-118.dsl.sca.megapath.net) |
| 21:41.28 | Kirkburn | Noo! |
| 21:41.42 | Kirkburn | I always lost to my blue friend |
| 21:41.55 | Kirkburn | Him and his bloody wyrms |
| 21:41.57 | kaiden | can you do or calls in lua? |
| 21:42.02 | kaiden | if (blah == blah) or (blah == moo) then |
| 21:42.03 | kaiden | ? |
| 21:42.06 | [MoonWolf] | sure |
| 21:42.10 | Tain | Absolutely! |
| 21:42.15 | kaiden | ok :) just making sure hehe |
| 21:42.17 | JoshBorke | definitely! |
| 21:42.23 | Qzot | or 'calls'? |
| 21:42.29 | Osagasu | *Kirk |
| 21:42.30 | Kirkburn | absotiddely! |
| 21:42.35 | kaiden | Qzot, actually 'or' calls :P |
| 21:42.36 | Kirkburn | lol |
| 21:42.44 | Tain | Oh we've got trouble, right here in River City. |
| 21:42.57 | Adrine | You can do or calls or and calls and and and or calls. |
| 21:43.03 | Qzot | My brain must not have recovered yet. My brain hurts. |
| 21:43.10 | Tain | Toss a few 'not' in to the mix as well. |
| 21:43.16 | JoshBorke | don't forget not or and not and and not and not calls |
| 21:43.28 | Kirkburn | *cough* plagiarise |
| 21:43.47 | [MoonWolf] | a and a+ or a = y not x or a = y + |
| 21:43.56 | Tain | It did take me a little bit to understand how things get processed. Like a = b and c or d |
| 21:44.00 | JoshBorke | lua doesn't have var++? |
| 21:44.05 | Tain | It does not. |
| 21:44.09 | [MoonWolf] | JoshBorke, nope |
| 21:44.17 | Qzot | Full frontal ugliness... |
| 21:44.18 | [MoonWolf] | neither does it have a += |
| 21:44.19 | JoshBorke | a=b == boolean(true)? right? |
| 21:44.21 | Kirkburn | I've been having fun 'discussing' why furbolgs are indeed a possibility, and Draenei are not certain |
| 21:44.31 | Adrine | When in doubt, use parentheses :) |
| 21:44.33 | Qzot | ./script C=CheckInteractDistance;t='target';z=C(t..t,1)and(C(t,1)and{gcinfo,'Feign Death'}or{PetWait,'Concussive Shot'})or((C('pet',1)or UnitExists(t..t))and{PetAttack,'Immolation Trap'}or{PetFollow,'Mend Pet'});z[1]();CastSpellByName(z[2]); |
| 21:44.49 | Adrine | My god, it's full of Perl! |
| 21:44.56 | Adrine | Well, not really. |
| 21:44.57 | Kirkburn | Loot it! |
| 21:45.02 | Adrine | But it looks like your average perl script. :) |
| 21:45.12 | JoshBorke | Qzot: i read it as "do or" as in print bob or die :D |
| 21:45.17 | Qzot | Yeah. I had to fit it in the macro char limit. It's ugly. |
| 21:45.22 | Osagasu | *files |
| 21:45.29 | Kirkburn | Doing good 2day, eh ;) |
| 21:45.37 | Tain | Happy St. Patrick's Day |
| 21:46.38 | Kirkburn | Happy St. Patrick's Day! |
| 21:46.46 | Adrine | My boss left early today |
| 21:46.48 | Kirkburn | Christ, it's nearly bed time here Qzot |
| 21:46.49 | JoshBorke | 15 minutes left |
| 21:47.01 | Adrine | And said "Well, since I won't be here, I won't know if you left early, right?" |
| 21:47.10 | Adrine | But I have work to be done, so will be here till 5. |
| 21:47.15 | Qzot | :( |
| 21:47.35 | Crispix | mmmm KFC Crispy Snackers w/ Hot sauce ^__^ |
| 21:47.48 | Kirkburn | Qzot, I fail to see how me saying it's nearly bed time should make you unhappy - you still have the day left! |
| 21:48.02 | Qzot | I was feeling empathy for Adrine. |
| 21:48.20 | Qzot | His co-workers get the afternoon off, and he's stuck at work. :( |
| 21:48.28 | Osagasu | wuh oh, KCI has a bug! >.> |
| 21:48.28 | Adrine | Well |
| 21:48.34 | Adrine | 2 of my co-workers are here still. |
| 21:48.37 | Adrine | But. Well. Yeah. |
| 21:48.38 | Qzot | I do have a soul, you know. |
| 21:48.48 | Qzot | If I can only find it here, somewhere... |
| 21:49.13 | Kirkburn | Good thing I got that pacemaker installed |
| 21:49.48 | Kirkburn | Can you imagine what the General forum will be like when they announce the new race? |
| 21:50.05 | Kirkburn | (y'know, they've just *got* to do it on April 1st) |
| 21:50.10 | Qzot | Btw, in the script above, gcinfo is a space-filler so I have something valid to call, when I don't need to call anything. Anyone know of something with a shorter name? |
| 21:50.25 | Kirkburn | I miss murloc day :( |
| 21:50.46 | Qzot | (Or better, annouce a fake race, Panda Pizza Deliverymen, on April 1.) |
| 21:50.54 | Adrine | Two-headed ogres. |
| 21:50.57 | Adrine | LEave people guessing. |
| 21:51.08 | Adrine | Is it? Isn't it? Why would they rehash the joke unless it was real?! |
| 21:51.16 | Adrine | The old joke was just to prepare us for the real thing! |
| 21:51.23 | Kirkburn | What's the april first jokes we've had so far? |
| 21:51.55 | JoshBorke | i hope we get the pandaren's in game again for April 1st |
| 21:52.07 | Adrine | If I were in charge of Blizzard's jokes, I would be really cruel to people. >:) |
| 21:52.16 | Adrine | That's prbably why I'm not. |
| 21:52.24 | Qzot | Yes. We know. It's why you're still at work, Adrine. |
| 21:52.30 | Adrine | :( |
| 21:52.35 | Qzot | Bad Karma. |
| 21:52.39 | Adrine | :( :( |
| 21:52.44 | Adrine | Harmless cruel jokes! |
| 21:52.54 | Adrine | Just the sorts of jokes that make people grab for their chests. |
| 21:53.18 | Shouryuu | I wonder how Blizzard manages to keep the Alliance race secret... I'm mean HL2 source code was hacked and stolen, find some bit of info an a race shouldn |
| 21:53.18 | Shouryuu | t |
| 21:53.21 | Shouryuu | be that hard... |
| 21:53.33 | Adrine | Like, log in and everyoen finds that their gear has been "stripped" from them - just put it in the hidden overflow bags... |
| 21:53.35 | Kirkburn | Last year's http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/pandaren-xpress.html |
| 21:53.38 | Adrine | ...but imaging the possibilities. |
| 21:53.52 | Qzot | "You have entered the zone of ANTI-gold." Your gold starts scrolling backward to zero. "Just kidding!" |
| 21:53.59 | Adrine | Exactly! |
| 21:54.08 | Adrine | Have random "gold" and "anti-gold" spots in the world |
| 21:54.15 | Adrine | Stand in one and your gold display adjusts automatically! |
| 21:54.30 | Adrine | *places anti-gold display on top of ironforge mailbox* |
| 21:54.44 | Kirov | Shouryuu - It's really easy when they don't have any clue themselves |
| 21:54.51 | Qzot | Oooo. At the same time of day, everyone logged on has a "GM" contact them about harrassing other players. |
| 21:54.52 | Adrine | Hehehe |
| 21:55.05 | Adrine | Yes! |
| 21:55.21 | Adrine | Or notify them that they are receiving a 3-day suspension, effective March 28. |
| 21:55.32 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 21:55.36 | Qzot | You *are* cruel. |
| 21:55.57 | Adrine | "Dude, I knew the lag was bad, but a 3 day ping is ridiculous!" |
| 21:56.58 | Adrine | I adminned a largeish forum for a while. People started getting antsy around Halloween/April Fool's |
| 21:57.12 | Qzot | Pinto bean debuffs you can put on other people. |
| 21:57.41 | Miravlix | Whats the wiki url for the broken addons page? |
| 21:57.41 | Adrine | One Halloween I embedded a flash file in the header of the site that would load approximately every 20 page hits. It was silent for a while, and then played the occassional fast spooky sound. |
| 21:57.56 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 21:57.59 | Adrine | People were freaking out, because they thought it was only them that could hear it, since it wasn't easily reproducable. :D |
| 21:58.17 | Qzot | I hear dead people. |
| 21:58.23 | Adrine | They weren't even sure if it was the forums, so people were posting hysterically about ghosts in their houses. |
| 21:58.27 | Shouryuu | geeks and hallowen |
| 21:58.34 | Adrine | I had way too much fun with that. |
| 21:58.37 | Kirkburn | Hmm, was there no 2003 april fools? |
| 21:58.49 | Adrine | Another year, I coded up a mod that randomly switched peoples' avatars and sigs. |
| 21:58.58 | Adrine | That was fun too. |
| 21:59.19 | Kirkburn | 2002 - Pandaren, 2004 - Ogres, 2005 - Pandaren Xpress |
| 22:00.17 | Adrine | 2003 - Starcraft: Ghost? |
| 22:00.17 | Adrine | >_> |
| 22:00.31 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 22:00.45 | [MoonWolf] | ghost will still come out before Duke nukem forever. |
| 22:00.46 | Shouryuu | I can't bear FPS on consoles |
| 22:00.47 | [MoonWolf] | most likely |
| 22:00.54 | [MoonWolf] | diablo patch 1.10 did |
| 22:00.56 | Adrine | Eh. That was primarily Nihilistic that messed Ghost up, from what I've heard. |
| 22:01.05 | Shouryuu | Nihilistic? |
| 22:01.12 | Adrine | The developer that was developing Ghost |
| 22:01.22 | Shouryuu | ah |
| 22:01.58 | Adrine | I'm pretty sure that Duke Nukem Forever is just a myth at this point. |
| 22:02.14 | Adrine | One of those urban legends passed down to scare young venture capitalists. |
| 22:02.48 | Kirkburn | They once did an april fools for Diablo ... it was kinda crap |
| 22:02.50 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 22:03.02 | Kirov | heh |
| 22:03.10 | Kirov | Duke Nuken Forever is still in production |
| 22:03.14 | Shouryuu | The secret cow level has to be an everyday april's fool |
| 22:03.20 | Kirkburn | http://www.google.com/intl/xx-elmer/ |
| 22:03.43 | Kirov | 3d Realms has made about 5 complete games now and scrapped them, starting from new. |
| 22:03.46 | Adrine | Kirov: See my pastebin about the possible alternate sorting method? |
| 22:03.58 | Kirov | Yeah, testing it out now |
| 22:03.59 | Kirov | thanks |
| 22:04.10 | Adrine | Awesome, let me know how it goes. I'm curious. :) |
| 22:04.23 | Cairenn|afk | http://www.wowwiki.com/Broken_Addons_0.10:_Repair_and_Reporting |
| 22:04.38 | *** join/#wowi-lounge cladhaire (n=jnwhiteh@cpe-24-59-191-241.twcny.res.rr.com) |
| 22:05.07 | Miravlix | Thanks, just fixed ArcanePartyBar and CastOptions. |
| 22:06.04 | Cairenn | np hun |
| 22:06.11 | Qzot | Instant poll: Should I release the revised PartyAims with only a command line config, or wait until 1.10 for a gui config? |
| 22:06.23 | Shouryuu | wait |
| 22:06.24 | Kirov | PartyAims? |
| 22:06.40 | Qzot | 1-0 in favor of wait. Thanks. |
| 22:06.41 | Shouryuu | if you actualy intend on making a GUI, if not, just go ahead |
| 22:07.01 | JoshBorke | release |
| 22:07.02 | Qzot | I'm planning on creating dynamic gui config. |
| 22:07.08 | Qzot | 2-1 wait. |
| 22:07.11 | Adrine | Woot! :) |
| 22:07.21 | Shouryuu | people can wait if they don't know they're actualy waiting... They won't be missing anything since they don't know what they're missing :P |
| 22:07.24 | Qzot | Same data will drive command line config and gui config. |
| 22:07.25 | Cairenn | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=4307 |
| 22:07.26 | Adrine | I'd recommend an "alpha" release that states very clearly that it has no GUI |
| 22:07.39 | Shouryuu | yeah I guess that's best |
| 22:07.48 | JoshBorke | Shouryuu: exactly, no sense in not releasing if they don't know about the GUI |
| 22:07.50 | Kirov | I'm kinda' curious if the code for generating a gui is going to be any less memory than just having the damn ui. |
| 22:07.54 | Miravlix | WoW, talk about Noob zone... the EU test server with 60 chars. o.O |
| 22:08.03 | cladhaire | Qzot: They should be seperate addons.. one loadondemand (the gui) |
| 22:08.16 | Qzot | Prolly. |
| 22:08.16 | cladhaire | Qzot: Release the codebas enow, with commandline configs.. and then package the GUI with it when its done. |
| 22:08.28 | JoshBorke | bye all |
| 22:08.28 | Qzot | That's a good idea. |
| 22:08.31 | cladhaire | Trust me.. make them seperate now.. you'll thank yourself =) |
| 22:08.31 | JoshBorke | Adrine: thanks for all the help |
| 22:08.34 | Cairenn | later JoshBorke |
| 22:08.35 | Shouryuu | bye bye :P |
| 22:08.42 | Kirkburn | Wait, how many Targetoftargets can you do? |
| 22:08.49 | cladhaire | XML for a gui takes a nice hunk of memory, depending on the application |
| 22:08.53 | Qzot | I hate addon deps. *sigh* |
| 22:08.54 | JoshBorke | targettargettargettarget |
| 22:09.07 | Kirkburn | (e.g. Discord has a pretty massive gui) |
| 22:09.08 | cladhaire | Qzot: Not dependencies. |
| 22:09.15 | *** part/#wowi-lounge JoshBorke (n=Josh@antimatter.stl.gtri.gatech.edu) |
| 22:09.17 | Adrine | Discord is large regardless :P |
| 22:09.27 | cladhaire | Qzot: Look at the latest versino of WatchDog.. the slash command handler is at the bottom, which opens the GUI |
| 22:09.29 | Adrine | I think that DAB -without- the GUI is something like 8MB on my startup. |
| 22:09.30 | Kirkburn | At least the ui loads on demand |
| 22:09.31 | cladhaire | and the GUI is LoadOnDemand |
| 22:09.56 | Qzot | ahhkay. |
| 22:10.13 | Kirkburn | targettargettargettarget = target's target's target's target? |
| 22:10.14 | Miravlix | I think it's fairly impressive to only have to disable 5 addons out of 170 to play on test |
| 22:10.20 | Kirov | SimpleActionSets's GUI takes up around 600kb by itself |
| 22:10.20 | cladhaire | Qzot: Package them together in one zip file.. one is dependant on the other.. but only loads if needed. |
| 22:10.33 | Kirov | I need to work on that |
| 22:10.51 | Kirkburn | My addon's ui doesn't exist |
| 22:10.56 | Kirov | hehe |
| 22:10.58 | Qzot | clad: I'm just now getting you. Even though the gui config is reusable, don't try to re |
| 22:10.58 | Kirov | sure it does |
| 22:11.05 | Kirov | It's called "chat edit box" |
| 22:11.10 | Qzot | use it as much as keep it from loading unless needed. |
| 22:11.12 | Shouryuu | :P |
| 22:11.13 | cladhaire | Qzot: *nod* |
| 22:11.38 | cladhaire | Qzot: Helped Discord tremendously around 2.0 time.. and I took the bait and did the same for WD.. helped load times and memory usage |
| 22:12.10 | cladhaire | http://wow.pastebin.com/608169 is the current code. |
| 22:12.16 | Shouryuu | so each time you zone, you're reloading every XML/lua file there is? |
| 22:12.17 | cladhaire | just nice and simple.. only change i really required |
| 22:12.30 | cladhaire | Shouryuu: No, any time the UI is torn down and reloaded. |
| 22:12.36 | cladhaire | Shouryuu: Which doesn't happen on zoning |
| 22:12.43 | Adrine | Zoning fires a ton of events |
| 22:12.46 | Adrine | But it doesn't reload the UI |
| 22:12.52 | Shouryuu | well zoning as in instances/cahnging continent |
| 22:12.58 | Adrine | Right |
| 22:13.04 | Adrine | Seeing a loading screen :) |
| 22:13.12 | Shouryuu | not as in Orgrimmar - Durotar |
| 22:13.14 | Kirkburn | Kirov, I just realised that you're right! |
| 22:13.23 | Kirov | It just repaints the entire UI, same as hiding it / unhiding it |
| 22:13.25 | Kirov | lol |
| 22:13.54 | Kirkburn | In my wisdom, the only setting you can change in CF in-game is ... the chat font size. |
| 22:14.10 | Kirkburn | And no-one changes it from the defaults anyway :P |
| 22:14.18 | Kirov | hmm, any reason not to do strlower(msg) on those? |
| 22:14.19 | [MoonWolf] | i set it to 12 |
| 22:14.37 | cladhaire | Shouryuu: Zoning between continents just re runs PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD, but it doesn't rebuild the UI |
| 22:15.08 | [MoonWolf] | cladhaire, and instance zoning ? |
| 22:16.32 | Kirov | should as well |
| 22:17.31 | Kirkburn | Erm, it the official WoW site working? |
| 22:17.35 | cladhaire | MoonWolf: Same as far as I know. |
| 22:17.43 | cladhaire | The only time the UI is rebuilt is on a reloadui |
| 22:17.46 | Tain | What the hell? I'm very confused. UPDATE_BINDINGS does not fire if you go into the bindings and set something, and hit Ok, but it does if you cancel or escape? |
| 22:18.07 | cladhaire | lol |
| 22:18.07 | Qzot | Cairenn: Did you get my PMs? Or am I being blocked again? |
| 22:18.16 | Cairenn | you forgot to ident, didn't you? |
| 22:18.18 | Tain | How does that make sense? That makes no sense! |
| 22:18.20 | Cairenn | no, I didn't get them :p |
| 22:18.28 | Kirov | Tain - does it fire when you change the binding? |
| 22:18.31 | Qzot | Um. That wasn't one-time-forever, huh? |
| 22:18.32 | Tain | No, Kirov. |
| 22:18.38 | Cairenn | every time you log in |
| 22:18.49 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:18.52 | Tain | It only changes when you escape out of the binding menu, or click Cancel. I'm doing it over and over again right now. |
| 22:19.27 | Kirov | lol, damn it |
| 22:19.45 | Kirov | that's just mean |
| 22:19.46 | Kirov | heh |
| 22:19.51 | Kirov | hmm |
| 22:20.13 | Kirov | too many local variables (limit=200) |
| 22:20.16 | Kirov | :( |
| 22:21.28 | Kirov | kirk - it's down for me too, though the forusm work |
| 22:22.35 | Kirkburn | Hello, ah I wanted to see the pandaren xpress site :( |
| 22:22.41 | Kirkburn | Nostalgia |
| 22:23.23 | Shouryuu | I am so insanely bored out of my mind |
| 22:23.24 | Kirkburn | Most IRC clients can do /msg chanserv identify <pw> for you |
| 22:23.39 | Shouryuu | L |
| 22:23.40 | Kirkburn | Shouryuu, don tempt me to spam again |
| 22:23.43 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 22:23.50 | Shouryuu | L'ennemie c'est l'ennui! |
| 22:23.59 | Shouryuu | I actualy watched "get rich or die trying" |
| 22:24.09 | Kirkburn | L'ennemie est Shouryuu! |
| 22:24.17 | Shouryuu | Oh noez! |
| 22:24.20 | Shouryuu | I am uncovered! |
| 22:24.29 | Kirkburn | Put some clothes on man! |
| 22:24.34 | Shouryuu | lol |
| 22:24.37 | Kirkburn | You'll catch your death out here |
| 22:27.55 | Kirkburn | Has anyone ever heard of Liquisoft? |
| 22:28.00 | Kirov | nope |
| 22:28.34 | Kirkburn | I am seriously envious of his design skills (his WIP thesis: http://www.liquisoft.com/school/thesis/bubbles.html) |
| 22:29.05 | Kirkburn | You should see some of the poster designs he makes *jealousy* |
| 22:29.54 | [MoonWolf] | wow, flashed used in a way that does not make me convulse on the floor |
| 22:30.34 | Kirkburn | :) |
| 22:32.25 | Kirkburn | If I ever needed something designed I'd get him to do it. http://liquisoft.deviantart.com/ |
| 22:37.16 | Adrine | To resurrect the topic from earlier: |
| 22:37.17 | Adrine | http://www.ezprezzo.com/crazypics/lego_aircraft_carrier.html |
| 22:37.32 | Adrine | I'm thoroughly impressed. |
| 22:38.00 | Cairenn | rofl |
| 22:38.36 | Kirkburn | meh :P |
| 22:38.58 | Kirkburn | What "earlier" is this? |
| 22:39.20 | Cairenn | they got on about lego earlier |
| 22:39.26 | Shouryuu | night |
| 22:39.36 | Cairenn | most specifically AnduinLothar, but others were involved too |
| 22:39.59 | Kirkburn | I see |
| 22:40.02 | Kirkburn | Well I should be off too |
| 22:40.09 | Cairenn | later Kirkburn |
| 22:40.15 | Kirkburn | Enjoy the rest of your day!! |
| 22:40.20 | Kirov | http://hometown.aol.com/Klaupacius/Lego/DarkGundam.html |
| 22:40.35 | Kirkburn | (That was a The Sims cheat name!) |
| 22:40.51 | Kirkburn | (Until it got changed to Rosebud) |
| 22:41.17 | Kirkburn | (I'm talking about Klapaucius btw) |
| 22:41.34 | Adrine | ((())) |
| 22:42.02 | Kirkburn | I disagree. ()()() |
| 22:45.12 | Kirov | Adrine - your function seems to work |
| 22:45.21 | Adrine | What's the performance like? |
| 22:45.31 | Kirov | it's sorting in the wrong order though for some reason, messing with that now. |
| 22:45.37 | Adrine | Just flip the > and < |
| 22:45.40 | Adrine | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:45.41 | Adrine | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:45.44 | Kirov | Yeah, I know |
| 22:45.46 | Adrine | Just reverse the comparisons :) |
| 22:45.46 | Kirov | that's not right either |
| 22:45.47 | Kirov | heh |
| 22:45.53 | Adrine | Define "wrong order"? |
| 22:46.49 | Kirov | well, first it was sorting the itemid smallest to largest, now it's putting enchanted items at the top |
| 22:47.17 | Adrine | Enchant is the third number, yes? |
| 22:47.28 | Kirov | no |
| 22:47.29 | Kirov | second |
| 22:47.34 | Adrine | Aha, ok |
| 22:47.58 | Adrine | What's the third? |
| 22:48.00 | Kirov | item:itemid:enchantid:suffixid:uniqueid |
| 22:48.09 | Adrine | suffix, ok |
| 22:48.27 | Adrine | So you want itemid ascending, enchant ascending, suffixid ascending? |
| 22:48.31 | Adrine | err, suffixid descending |
| 22:48.44 | Adrine | Or itemid->suffix->enchant? |
| 22:49.12 | Kirov | hmm |
| 22:49.12 | Adrine | And do you care about the uniqueid matter at all? |
| 22:49.24 | Adrine | Also, I'm a moron. |
| 22:49.31 | Adrine | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:49.31 | Adrine | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:49.33 | Adrine | Flip those two lines |
| 22:51.19 | Adrine | I flipped those two lines, don't do anything to the > and < lines, and I get these results: |
| 22:51.29 | Adrine | http://pastebin.com/608234 |
| 22:51.43 | Qzot | Kirov: Does uniqueId encode the crafter, but non-stackable, crafted items? |
| 22:51.52 | Adrine | The first 5 are the pre-sorted order, the second 5 are the sorted order |
| 22:52.29 | Kirov | I'm trying to figure out how the hell I managed to get my code to do what it did |
| 22:52.40 | Adrine | Heh. What did you have it doing? |
| 22:52.54 | Kirov | just a sec |
| 22:54.09 | Adrine | Does anyone know if there's a way to get the next result from a gsub without running it in a for loop? |
| 22:54.32 | Kirov | http://pastebin.com/608237 |
| 22:55.01 | Adrine | So ID descending, enchant ascending, unique descending |
| 22:55.18 | Adrine | Or is it ID descending, unique descending, enchant ascending? |
| 22:55.45 | Kirov | second |
| 22:56.03 | Kirov | id decending, suffix descending, enchant ascending |
| 22:56.58 | Adrine | Ok. Solved it, but give me a moment |
| 22:57.03 | Adrine | I may have found a more efficient way of doing this. |
| 22:57.26 | Kirov | Qzot - sort of |
| 22:58.33 | Kirov | Qzot - the unique id doesn't in itself seem to have any information encoded in it. It seem to be a pointer to some data that holds the information about who crafted it, as well as who it was crafted for (if it's a quest item) |
| 22:58.58 | Kirov | ooo ... wowwiki is super fast now |
| 22:58.58 | Kirov | http://www.wowwiki.com/API_TYPE_ItemString |
| 22:59.24 | Adrine | Kirov: I think can improve the big O of the function - gimme a sec. |
| 22:59.31 | Adrine | Move it from O(n) to n :) |
| 22:59.41 | Adrine | Err |
| 22:59.52 | Adrine | O(n^2) to O(n) |
| 22:59.58 | Kirov | ooo |
| 23:00.09 | Adrine | Bingo, there we go. Now I just need to read about lua iterators... |
| 23:00.22 | Kirov | hehe |
| 23:00.38 | Adrine | I need a way to manually get "next" from a lua iterator. |
| 23:02.37 | Kirov | well |
| 23:02.40 | Qzot | Adrine: I think you can only do that if you extract the 3 args the iterator returns. |
| 23:02.51 | Kirov | you could just do this. |
| 23:02.55 | Adrine | Qzot: I'm starting to think that's right. :/ |
| 23:03.10 | Adrine | "An iterator is any construction that allows you to iterate over the elements of a collection. In Lua, we typically represent iterators by functions: Each time we call that function, it returns a "next" element from the collection." |
| 23:03.15 | Adrine | See, that's what I'd expect |
| 23:03.20 | Adrine | Call it X times, get X iterations |
| 23:03.25 | Adrine | Oh. Duh. |
| 23:03.29 | Adrine | Hello. Moron typing. |
| 23:03.29 | Qzot | Using Lua iterators is easy. Making them is more difficult. Tweaking existing ones is murderous. |
| 23:03.33 | Kirov | for string.gfind(e1.i, "(%d+):(%d+):(%d+):%d") do |
| 23:03.54 | Adrine | I could do that, but I think this will be easier. |
| 23:04.02 | Adrine | My problem was that I was re-initializing the iterator each time. |
| 23:04.05 | Adrine | But that would work too. |
| 23:04.42 | Qzot | What are you trying to iterate over? |
| 23:05.13 | Kirov | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64wQMMxvKTc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ethesuperficial%2Ecom%2Farchives%2F2006%2F03%2F17%2Fchuch%5Fnorris%5Freads%5Fchuck%5Fnorri%2Ehtml - chuck norris reading chuck norris facts |
| 23:05.32 | Adrine | Just a gsub function |
| 23:05.44 | Adrine | But Kirov pointed out that I was doing it the hard way. :) |
| 23:06.49 | Adrine | http://pastebin.com/608254 |
| 23:07.55 | Adrine | phear my leet variable names. >_> |
| 23:08.04 | Kirov | hehe |
| 23:08.23 | Adrine | But that produces the proper output, I believe. |
| 23:09.07 | Adrine | And it's O(1), I believe. |
| 23:09.13 | Kirov | one thing this is missing, btw |
| 23:09.16 | Adrine | ? |
| 23:09.22 | Kirov | checks for ie e1 and e2 exist |
| 23:09.29 | Kirov | since, they won't always in a sort |
| 23:09.35 | Adrine | Is that possible? |
| 23:09.40 | Kirov | aparently |
| 23:09.45 | Adrine | That seems completely wrong |
| 23:09.51 | Adrine | Why would you attempt to sort nils? |
| 23:09.56 | Adrine | Unless you have nils in your table |
| 23:09.59 | Kirov | ask the lua gods |
| 23:10.09 | Adrine | Huh. I've never run into that. |
| 23:10.37 | Adrine | if not e1 or not e2 then return 0; end |
| 23:10.41 | Adrine | That should do it, I think |
| 23:10.43 | Adrine | Wait... |
| 23:10.56 | Adrine | I don't know what return 0; does in a lua sort, since a bool is expected |
| 23:11.10 | Adrine | In PHP, you have -1 for "less than", 0 for "equal" and 1 for "greater than" |
| 23:11.16 | Kirov | if not e1 then return true elseif not e1 return false end |
| 23:11.17 | Adrine | So I'd just return 0 and make no change. |
| 23:11.37 | Qzot | Adrine: That's an improper use of gfind. |
| 23:11.40 | Adrine | Possibly backwards, but that should work. |
| 23:11.43 | Adrine | Qzot: How so? |
| 23:12.12 | Kirov | don't need the (1) at the end |
| 23:12.16 | Adrine | I edited that out :) |
| 23:12.22 | Adrine | You were too fast for me :( |
| 23:12.25 | Kirov | and don't need .gfind |
| 23:12.28 | Kirov | .find |
| 23:12.38 | Adrine | Huh? |
| 23:12.56 | Kirov | string.gfind is an iterator function |
| 23:13.04 | Qzot | An iterator returns 3 values: A function, a static state, and an initial value (which is *not* guaranteed to be the first value). |
| 23:13.07 | Adrine | No, it constructs and returns an iterator function |
| 23:13.19 | Adrine | Qzot: Hm. |
| 23:13.35 | Adrine | I'll have to test, because initially it was only returning one function |
| 23:13.41 | Qzot | Any proper call to the iterator function is supposed to pass back the static state, and the last value returned from the iterator. |
| 23:14.02 | Adrine | Obviously I need to lern2read :) |
| 23:14.03 | Qzot | This gives iterator implementors a variety of ways to implement an iterator that works well with the for statement. |
| 23:14.38 | Qzot | Moreover, string.find will do just what you want. No iterator involved. |
| 23:14.50 | Adrine | ...doh. |
| 23:15.32 | Qzot | local _,_,a,b,c = string.find(e1.i, "(%d+):(%d+):(%d+):%d+"); |
| 23:16.31 | Qzot | You get 2 extra return values from string.find, but they're easily enough disposed of. |
| 23:16.54 | Adrine | Yeah |
| 23:17.35 | Adrine | http://pastebin.com/608279 |
| 23:17.37 | Kirov | works |
| 23:17.39 | Adrine | That seems more better. |
| 23:17.41 | Kirov | already fix it. |
| 23:17.41 | Kirov | heh |
| 23:17.44 | cladhaire | Anyone here use WatchDog? |
| 23:18.01 | Miravlix | No but my WatchCat is sleeping in my laundry |
| 23:18.54 | cladhaire | =) |
| 23:21.08 | Kirov | Adrine, seems to be working perfectly |
| 23:21.22 | Adrine | How's performance? |
| 23:21.28 | Kirov | though, it lead me to another bug of mine ... |
| 23:22.09 | Kirov | difficult to gauge |
| 23:22.15 | Adrine | Spit it out :P |
| 23:22.22 | Adrine | Also, woo, leaving in 30 minutes |
| 23:27.15 | Qzot | Adrine: Add the 'local' before your vars. Naked globals are bad news. |
| 23:27.30 | Adrine | Yes, yes >_> |
| 23:27.38 | Adrine | (I do that in my actual code, honest!) |
| 23:27.51 | Adrine | I tend to proof-of-concept in a rather sloppy fashion :) |
| 23:27.51 | Qzot | Lies! |
| 23:27.56 | Tain | I can't seem to find it, how do you enable/disable the display of keybindings on the default UI buttons? |
| 23:28.00 | Kirov | and I do it to Adrine's code when I actually use it. |
| 23:28.00 | Adrine | See: 1-character variable names |
| 23:28.00 | Kirov | =) |
| 23:28.06 | Adrine | See? Kirov's got my back. :) |
| 23:29.15 | Adrine | Hahahaha. |
| 23:29.16 | Adrine | http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,70348-0.html?tw=wn_index_3 |
| 23:29.19 | Tain | Oh you can't disable showing bindings by default. I guess. |
| 23:29.41 | Kirov | Tain - nope |
| 23:30.51 | Adrine | > Wield dagger |
| 23:30.55 | Adrine | You look slightly less feeble. A knight rides by on a gleaming white charger. He is bedecked from head to toe with shining armor. His shoulder armor alone is big enough to house you, your family and any pets you pick up at the auction house, and still have room to hang that pathetic dagger of yours on the wall as a constant reminder of your utter weakness compared to a true man like him. |
| 23:32.59 | Miravlix | Whats the current solution to not using movement hooks? |
| 23:33.17 | Kirov | use temporary movement hooks |
| 23:33.20 | Kirov | ? |
| 23:33.34 | Miravlix | You cant use temp hooks |
| 23:33.42 | Kirov | why not? |
| 23:33.59 | Miravlix | Because blizzard decided thats how it should be |
| 23:34.08 | Kirov | Is this recent? |
| 23:34.26 | Miravlix | Not really been around for a few weeks now |
| 23:34.31 | Kirov | erm |
| 23:34.39 | Kirov | I tested it on the test server fine |
| 23:34.49 | Adrine | temporary movement hook = temporarily rebind the movement keys to fire your function, I believe |
| 23:35.02 | Kirov | well, no |
| 23:35.06 | Kirov | though, that'd work just as well |
| 23:35.16 | Kirov | I'm temp hooking the mouse clicks |
| 23:35.42 | *** join/#wowi-lounge {RA}BC-Werk (n=BC@216.31.182.146) |
| 23:35.42 | Miravlix | so you arent hooking movement functions.. |
| 23:35.47 | Kirov | true |
| 23:35.57 | Kirov | but they're under the same rules |
| 23:36.31 | Rabid-Werk | greetings |
| 23:36.43 | Adrine | Afternoon |
| 23:37.26 | Cairenn | hi |
| 23:37.30 | Rabid-Werk | another place to idle :P |
| 23:37.33 | Gryphen | heya |
| 23:37.37 | Cairenn | heh |
| 23:37.57 | Adrine | Yeah. >_> |
| 23:38.01 | Qzot | Adrine: I just found a problem with your code. |
| 23:38.13 | Adrine | Lay it on me, Qzot |
| 23:38.18 | Cairenn | would we recognize you under a different pseudonym, Rabid-Werk? |
| 23:38.20 | Qzot | It's going to sort in lexicographic order. |
| 23:38.46 | Adrine | Ahahaha |
| 23:38.48 | Adrine | You're right. |
| 23:38.49 | Qzot | Not numeric. |
| 23:39.05 | Kirov | eek |
| 23:39.06 | Kirov | fixing |
| 23:39.25 | Rabid-Werk | Rabid the guy who flamed in the mazzle thread that you PM'd to remove iit, which I did :) |
| 23:39.43 | Adrine | http://pastebin.com/608306 more better? |
| 23:39.48 | Rabid-Werk | want to learn more so I thought I should lurk here |
| 23:39.51 | Cairenn | right |
| 23:40.06 | Kirov | adrine, I just do the tonumbers on the return |
| 23:40.09 | Cairenn | you're more than welcome to :) |
| 23:40.11 | Adrine | Does that work? |
| 23:40.13 | Rabid-Werk | w00t |
| 23:40.14 | Kirov | sure |
| 23:40.23 | Adrine | Oh, I suppose so, since the two _ parameters are numeric as well. |
| 23:40.29 | Adrine | Not that I'm sure Lua would mind. |
| 23:40.33 | Kirov | no no, not there |
| 23:40.52 | Kirov | http://pastebin.com/608307 |
| 23:41.10 | Adrine | That works as well, I suppose. |
| 23:41.22 | Kirov | only ever does tonumber twice |
| 23:41.30 | Adrine | Aha, yes. |
| 23:41.36 | Kirov | and I don't care if the ~= are being done on strings vs. numbers |
| 23:41.40 | Adrine | Good catch. :) |
| 23:42.09 | Adrine | My test says it checks out. |
| 23:43.35 | Rabid-Werk | wow |
| 23:43.39 | Cairenn | mmmmm fresh warm cinnamon rolls with maple frosting *gains five pounds just looking at them* |
| 23:43.59 | Adrine | That sounds awesome. |
| 23:44.33 | Rabid-Werk | *sigh* |
| 23:44.34 | Cairenn | heh |
| 23:44.54 | Rabid-Werk | though if I made those here at work folks would riot |
| 23:45.41 | kaiden | rioting is good |
| 23:45.49 | Qzot | Adrine: You still here? |
| 23:46.32 | End | ah, today has been a long day, but now I am done...! |
| 23:46.35 | Adrine | For a moment, yes! |
| 23:46.47 | Cairenn | later End-afk :) |
| 23:46.55 | End-afk | cya :) |
| 23:46.59 | Qzot | I tried to come up with a way to write that comparator much more cleanly... |
| 23:47.27 | Qzot | http://pastebin.com/608320 |
| 23:47.33 | Qzot | I failed miserably. |
| 23:47.46 | Kirov | lol |
| 23:48.17 | Adrine | I'm pretty sure that if we try hard enough, we'll eventually compress it to 2.66 bytes. |
| 23:48.39 | Adrine | Though, as we are unable to represent fractions of a byte, we'll have to settle for the long version. :( |
| 23:49.07 | Qzot | Not on quantum computers, we won't. |
| 23:49.29 | Adrine | Well, we will. |
| 23:49.31 | Adrine | But we won't. |
| 23:49.34 | Adrine | Simultaniously! |
| 23:49.40 | Kirov | Until we look at it |
| 23:49.46 | Adrine | At which case it might break |
| 23:49.51 | Adrine | But we don't know if it didn't. |
| 23:50.02 | Adrine | Quantum physics makes my head hurt, and I -like- physics. |
| 23:50.13 | Qzot | Oh, what entangled states we weave, when we first practice... |
| 23:50.22 | Adrine | It's like "Here, everything you know is completely wrong, have a hammer to the forehead." |
| 23:50.56 | Qzot | I especially like the all-worlds interpretation of state collapse. |
| 23:51.51 | Qzot | Btw, what's the need for sorting item ids? |
| 23:52.40 | Kirov | Partial rewrite of LootLInk |
| 23:53.07 | Kirov | http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=3326 |
| 23:53.28 | Kirov | attempting to reduce some of the memory holes |
| 23:53.35 | Qzot | Why the concern about the particular sort you use? |
| 23:53.50 | Qzot | ?? |
| 23:54.45 | Kirov | The way they're sorted I want the "best", non enchanted item first |
| 23:55.09 | Qzot | Hmm. |
| 23:55.09 | Kirov | Any item that's enchanted gets tossed after that, along with variants of the bonuses |
| 23:55.41 | Kirov | Makes it easier to find the best version of the item you're looking for so you can see the possible ranges. |
| 23:55.58 | Qzot | I've always wanted LL to key only on the primary ID, and keep a list of the random variations actually seen. |
| 23:56.45 | Kirov | which is what LLe does |
| 23:56.53 | Qzot | I'd just as soon LL toss any player-added enchant. Or at the most, keep them in a separate DB. |
| 23:56.58 | Qzot | Excellent. |
| 23:57.04 | Kirov | well |
| 23:57.24 | Adrine | I should extend Sanity to provide links for items in the mailbox from the LL database if LL is installed. |
| 23:57.37 | Adrine | Right now, there's no way to get a link for them and it drives me nuts. |
| 23:57.43 | Kirov | Adrine, did you see the function I wrote for RTE? |
| 23:57.58 | Adrine | No - which one? |
| 23:59.29 | Kirov | http://pastebin.com/608332 |
