irclog2html for #wowi-lounge on 20060314

`00:01.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kirkburn (n=George@151.56.245.104)`
`00:05.00`	`AnduinLothar`	`wow... deleting those is bad... you have to go manually edit the indent for all 10 styles`
`00:07.26`	`Tem`	`and that's why MS Word is the devil`
`00:07.43`	`Tem`	`Nooo!`
`00:07.45`	`cladhaire`	`LaTeX ftw`
`00:07.55`	`Tem`	`WTB "turn this griphon around" button`
`00:08.00`	`Adrine`	`Heh. Always.`
`00:08.41`	`AnduinLothar`	`well i was hoping i could autogenerate a toc...`
`00:08.45`	`AnduinLothar`	`too hopeful`
`00:08.58`	`Tem`	`is LaTeX also a word processor?`
`00:09.07`	`AnduinLothar`	`manually, yes`
`00:09.21`	`AnduinLothar`	`i could code that up`
`00:09.27`	`AnduinLothar`	`but it's take longer`
`00:09.30`	`AnduinLothar`	`it'd`
`00:10.11`	`Adrine`	`Y'know...`
`00:10.37`	`Adrine`	`I can't ever say that I've ever considered writing a TOC-generation tool :P`
`00:14.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`if i wrote more tech papers i would`
`00:15.11`	`Adrine`	`Well now.`
`00:15.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`latex will do it automaticly actually`
`00:15.21`	`Adrine`	`You probably meant a TOC for, like, papers`
`00:15.26`	`Adrine`	`Rather than a WoW addon TOC file.`
`00:15.34`	`Adrine`	`And I'm completely off in left field. :P`
`00:15.57`	`Josh\|Gone`	`i thought WoW TOC file too...`
`00:16.11`	`AnduinLothar`	`nah, that info usually isn't in the lua unless you define global vars`
`00:16.24`	`AnduinLothar`	`which you could... but you'd have more info`
`00:16.25`	`Adrine`	`I was going to say, that seems like a lot of work for such a simple file :P`
`00:20.28`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1)`
`00:21.57`	`AnduinLothar`	`wow... it worked`
`00:22.37`	`AnduinLothar`	`auto generated with page numbers`
`00:23.24`	`AnduinLothar`	`now if only the header numbers worked`
`00:34.30`	`Kirov`	`didn't someone make an entire web site to auto generate .toc files?`
`00:35.52`	`Kirkburn`	`This is so much fun ... http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-realm-test&t=185060&p=1&tmp=1#post185060`
`00:39.17`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Hmmm. Speaking of web sites, what if we had a system which can easily communicate with everyone who has the client, allowing a networked database to be created to facilitate something like the World Wide Web inside of WoW?`
`00:39.38`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Each person could have their own webpage, with their info, maybe even a blog, and links to their exploits, etc.`
`00:39.39`	`Kirkburn`	`Aaah, channel spam lag!`
`00:39.53`	`Kirkburn`	`... is my sole comment on that idea`
`00:39.55`	`Kirov`	`I think I'll start exploiting Sky for that`
`00:40.06`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Hey, it works on a much smaller scale with flagRSP`
`00:40.18`	`Kirkburn`	`I think you made my point in your comment then`
`00:40.20`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`And wowKB wasn't too bad, even though it didn't really take off`
`00:40.30`	`Kirkburn`	`"Much smaller scale"`
`00:40.44`	`Kirkburn`	`I agree it's a cool idea tho`
`00:41.14`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Well, web pages aren't given to you instantly either. You could queue the information into "channel packets" to reduce lag while making the experience slower.`
`00:41.21`	`Kirov`	`In 1.10 we'll be able to send images via the chat channels!`
`00:41.27`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Really?`
`00:41.30`	`Kirkburn`	`yer what?`
`00:41.43`	`Kirkburn`	`Like via ASCII? ;)`
`00:41.58`	`Kirov`	`ie: send a long string of r,g,b colors and generate 120000 1x1 frames to show it with.`
`00:42.03`	`Kirkburn`	`mmm`
`00:42.07`	`Kirkburn`	`lol`
`00:42.07`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`That's great, people will use it to send JPEGs with viruses in them`
`00:42.10`	`Kirov`	`That won't be slow or anything ...`
`00:42.11`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Ahhh, that's much better`
`00:42.14`	`Kirkburn`	`I knew you were gonna suggest that`
`00:42.29`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I was thinking of something like that for in-game Myspace`
`00:42.36`	`Kirkburn`	`lol`
`00:42.39`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`But again, it would take together to get a 32-bit image`
`00:42.45`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`s/together/forever/.`
`00:42.53`	`Kirov`	`actually, that reminds me.`
`00:43.01`	`Kirkburn`	`Bitterrent in the WoWverse?`
`00:43.03`	`Kirov`	`Does anyone have any experience with sending mail?`
`00:43.06`	`Kirkburn`	`*bittorrent`
`00:43.10`	`Kirkburn`	`Kirov, eh?`
`00:43.10`	`Kirov`	`in wow`
`00:43.18`	`Kirkburn`	`Again ... er`
`00:43.31`	`Kirkburn`	`Yes, I have experienced that`
`00:43.34`	`Kirov`	`Specifically sending basically garbage character strings via the mail system.`
`00:43.46`	`Kirkburn`	`um`
`00:43.49`	`Kirkburn`	`not that though`
`00:44.23`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Is ASCII porn via WoW Mail against the TOC?`
`00:44.29`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`00:44.31`	`Cairenn`	`rofl`
`00:45.00`	`Cairenn`	`actually, it probably is :p`
`00:45.07`	`Kirov`	`I'm trying to data about your action bars via the mail system.`
`00:45.09`	`Kirkburn`	`Well durr`
`00:45.14`	`Kirkburn`	`:)`
`00:45.46`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Cairenn, silent for a long time, suddenly perks up at the mention of "porn" -- she must have it auto-highlight and beep, automatically opening up any links in the message ;)`
`00:45.54`	`Cairenn`	`not`
`00:45.57`	`Kirov`	`But, it's too much information in pure text form, but lzw adds in a lot of crazy characters. I'm wondering if anyone knows what characters aren't allowed by the mail system.`
`00:46.12`	`Kirov`	`or perhaps by the edit boxes since it seems to cause issues there as wel.`
`00:46.38`	`Kirkburn`	`How do YOU rate ... http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html`
`00:47.25`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Kirov: Since the client program itself is made to be as least dependant on localization as possible, it should accept all of ASCII Extended`
`00:47.29`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`At least`
`00:48.12`	`Ktron`	`how do you take the survey?`
`00:48.17`	`Kirkburn`	`Have steam`
`00:48.43`	`AnduinLothar`	`ooo, i win! not only do I have an auto-generated toc... but it auto-updates itself too!`
`00:48.44`	`Ktron`	`what is steam?`
`00:48.52`	`Kirkburn`	`It the world of Steam, there are more AMDs and more nVidias`
`00:48.56`	`AnduinLothar`	`onyl took me 2 hours to figure out..`
`00:48.57`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Do you get points off for having Steam in the first place?`
`00:48.57`	`Kirkburn`	`Ktron, you know VALVe?`
`00:48.59`	`Kirov`	`Valve's content delivery system`
`00:49.04`	`Ktron`	`Kirkburn; nope`
`00:49.13`	`Kirkburn`	`They made Half Life`
`00:49.24`	`Ktron`	`oh, yeah I do remember them`
`00:49.32`	`Kirkburn`	`er, do you remember Half Life 2?`
`00:49.38`	`Ktron`	`is steam the 'this is secure no hackz0rs' software for HL2?`
`00:49.46`	`Kirkburn`	`Yes`
`00:49.52`	`Ktron`	`ah, okay`
`00:50.27`	`Kirkburn`	`I had it ever since the beta, never had any problems ... I must be like the luckiest guy ever`
`00:50.47`	`Kirov`	`lol, "4 cpus ... 1"`
`00:50.52`	`Kirkburn`	`I remember getting up early just so I could authenticate HL2 on the morning it came out`
`00:51.24`	`Kirkburn`	`42" monitors ... 1`
`00:51.34`	`Kirkburn`	`omg`
`00:51.59`	`Kirkburn`	`Imagine HL2 played on 3840 x 1024`
`00:52.06`	`ForgottenLords`	`gasp`
`00:52.09`	`Kirov`	`I'm more scared by the 5 people with 32 inch monitors`
`00:52.30`	`Kirov`	`mac users, eek!`
`00:52.31`	`Kirov`	`;)`
`00:52.34`	`Ktron`	`yeah, 4 people with 3840x1024 resolution`
`00:52.43`	`Kirkburn`	`That must 3 monitors side by side`
`00:52.52`	`Kirkburn`	`s/must/must be/`
`00:53.09`	`Kirkburn`	`wiiiiidescreen`
`00:53.33`	`Ktron`	`think you're right Kirkburn`
`00:53.40`	`Kirkburn`	`Weirdly there are people still using beta versions of XP`
`00:53.56`	`Kirov`	`Yeah, why not?`
`00:54.17`	`Ktron`	`btw, are you aware that whenever people type your name, there's an overwhelming feeling that it should be 'kickburn'?`
`00:54.18`	`Kirkburn`	`Er ... well ... I'm surprised they've survived`
`00:54.22`	`Kirkburn`	`Yes`
`00:54.26`	`Kirov`	`heh, true`
`00:54.28`	`Kirkburn`	`Unfortunately so`
`00:54.40`	`Kirkburn`	`I've had more than one type it`
`00:54.42`	`Kirkburn`	`:(`
`00:54.54`	`Kirkburn`	`It's actually the name of a town, I found`
`00:55.07`	`Kirkburn`	`Means church on a hill`
`00:55.23`	`Kirkburn`	`(Or possibly a religious pyromaniac)`
`00:56.21`	`Kirkburn`	`Lots of people have more than 250Gig of free space :(`
`00:56.28`	`Kirkburn`	`I have ... 1.8`
`00:56.46`	`Ktron`	`no, not lots free with 250gb`
`00:56.52`	`Ktron`	`lots have a total of 250gb or more`
`00:57.04`	`Kirkburn`	`165 is lots to me :P`
`00:57.10`	`Ktron`	`most people have between 10 and 30 gb free`
`00:57.26`	`Kirkburn`	`Yes well kickburn doesn't`
`00:58.03`	`Kirkburn`	`I'm surprised by how little ram people have though`
`00:58.15`	`Ktron`	`I have 140gb for windows between 2 hard drives-- 25gb free on one, and 4gb free on the other`
`00:58.22`	`Kirkburn`	`I thought 1GB was becoming standard`
`00:58.55`	`Kirkburn`	`I would be able to score much more impressively if I were at home ... :(`
`00:58.57`	`Ktron`	`apparently not yet`
`00:59.04`	`Kirov`	`Kirkburn - if you buy a new computer today, you're more likely to have 1gb installed in it, but there are still some that come with 512 for some stupid reason.`
`00:59.05`	`Ktron`	`I fall in the 2.0 Gb and above :)`
`00:59.26`	`Kirkburn`	`Ktron, I hate you :)`
`00:59.39`	`Kirkburn`	`More than a quarter still have less than 512!`
`00:59.46`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Parak (n=profi@user-0cev737.cable.mindspring.com)`
`00:59.53`	`Kirov`	`They probably haven't bought a new computer in 2 years`
`01:00.06`	`Kirkburn`	`Cheapskates`
`01:00.14`	`Kirov`	`And changing memory is a scary thing... when you have no idea how.`
`01:00.25`	`Kirkburn`	`I think the results might be slightly different if it was a WoW survey`
`01:00.36`	`Kirkburn`	`I'm thinking about putting more in my laptop`
`01:00.46`	`Kirov`	`It's worse if you go online and see all those "STATIC ELECTRICITY WILL DESTROY YOUR COMPUTER" warnings they use to scare people away from breaking open their case.`
`01:00.59`	`Kirkburn`	`I have a gig, but I might get another 512 for £50 - is that reasonable?`
`01:01.30`	`Ktron`	`it's high for the US I think`
`01:01.57`	`Kirkburn`	`(anecdote - my girlfriend known very very little about computers, but she installed ram in her laptop on her own, despite the PC World people continually implying she was unable to do so as she was a girl. Idiots)`
`01:01.58`	`Kirov`	`er`
`01:02.45`	`Kirov`	`Where is 1 gig not high (excluding all asian countries were their analog watches double as 10 gig wireless storage devices)`
`01:02.57`	`Kirkburn`	`lol.`
`01:03.35`	`Kirkburn`	`I'm trying to decide whether going from 1gig to 1.5gig will do much`
`01:03.41`	`Kirov`	`probably not`
`01:03.47`	`Cairenn`	`Kirkburn: but, but, she's a girl! we don't know anything about complicated stuff like this. that's why we need big strong smart men to help us. twirl curl of hair around finger and giggle`
`01:03.54`	`Kirkburn`	`heehee`
`01:04.15`	`Kirov`	`unless you regularly enjoy running .net, photoshop, source safe, wow, and msn at the same time.`
`01:04.28`	`Kirkburn`	`She wasn't happy with them ... even the female employees were implying she couldn't do it!`
`01:04.45`	`Kirkburn`	`Kirov, but of course`
`01:05.06`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Impossible`
`01:05.08`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=KCummins@proxy-ce1.disney.com)`
`01:05.13`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`MSN doesn't run, period`
`01:05.16`	`Kirov`	`I remember a while back I was checking the memory usage on my computer ... MSN was using 120 megs`
`01:05.17`	`Kirkburn`	`Something happened to my lappy recently which has made it nearly incapable of playing DVDs`
`01:05.53`	`Kirkburn`	`I think it's the dvd drive, but with coaxing, it just about does it`
`01:06.14`	`Kirkburn`	`The weird thing is that if I use Power DVD it runs fine in a window, but not fullscreen`
`01:06.36`	`Kirkburn`	`Windows Media Player won't run it at all`
`01:06.42`	`Kirkburn`	`And media player classic struggles`
`01:06.54`	`AnduinLothar`	`vlc ftw`
`01:07.01`	`Kirkburn`	`vlc?`
`01:07.18`	`Shadowd`	`VideoLan Classic?`
`01:07.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`http://www.videolan.org/vlc/`
`01:07.24`	`Ktron`	`msn is not cool`
`01:07.27`	`Kirkburn`	`I use ffdshow n stuff`
`01:07.35`	`Kirkburn`	`Ktron, so mean`
`01:07.37`	`AnduinLothar`	`VideoLAN Client`
`01:07.40`	`Ktron`	`VLC is good, media player classic is okay for some applications too`
`01:07.54`	`Kirkburn`	`Must investigate`
`01:08.03`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`BSPlayer`
`01:08.07`	`Ktron`	`firefox ftw for features, something like k-meleon or something for efficency`
`01:08.15`	`Kirkburn`	`IE7!`
`01:08.16`	`Kirkburn`	`:P`
`01:08.20`	`AnduinLothar`	`ew`
`01:08.24`	`AnduinLothar`	`;)`
`01:08.24`	`Kirkburn`	`harr`
`01:08.33`	`Ktron`	`heh... the one thing I like about IE7`
`01:08.34`	`Kirkburn`	`It works for me :)`
`01:08.41`	`Kirov`	`bs player is by far the best video player I know ... too bad the interface annoying to use.`
`01:09.02`	`Ktron`	`is that they made it not look clean enough to be corporate, and it came out too late to catch most peopel who care about looks`
`01:09.10`	`Ktron`	`bs player kept crashing for me`
`01:09.15`	`Kirkburn`	`Intriguing, I didn't install BSPlayer last time.`
`01:09.19`	`Miravlix`	`You click play some video starts playing full screen, who cares with what player`
`01:09.24`	`Kirkburn`	`(I use the KL mega pack)`
`01:09.33`	`Kirov`	`same`
`01:09.44`	`Kirkburn`	`Miravlix, I care, since half them won't play my dvds any more :(`
`01:09.45`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Know how Internet Explorer got its name? After only 3 minutes of usage, all 300 testers in Microsoft set themselves on fire and ran by the marketing department. Their dying cry stuck in marketing heads' -- "IEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"`
`01:09.53`	`Kirkburn`	`hehehe`
`01:09.57`	`Kirov`	`I use mpc unless the video has stuttering problems, then I use bs`
`01:10.07`	`Miravlix`	`Kirkburn: Thats your codec being messed up not the players`
`01:10.07`	`AnduinLothar`	`well intuitive gui sound/picture adjustment controls are important`
`01:10.27`	`Miravlix`	`All the players can play the same movies if the codec setup is working right`
`01:10.30`	`Kirkburn`	`Miravlix, you don't know how many times I've uninstalled codecs ...`
`01:10.47`	`Kirkburn`	`I'd love to think it is them, cos that'd be easy to fix`
`01:10.51`	`Miravlix`	`Prolly a lot, since Windows codec system breaks soo easily`
`01:11.17`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Never, ever install "Codec Packs" unless a guide specifically tells you to`
`01:11.24`	`Kirkburn`	`If attempted using the nVidia codecs, Power DVD codecs (which seem to work do far, just) and the KLite codec pack stuff`
`01:11.27`	`Miravlix`	`Getting the right path through 4-5 codecs is hell`
`01:11.44`	`Kirkburn`	`s/if/I've/`
`01:11.48`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`In fact, never install codecs yourself, period. Uninstall all your codecs and follow a guide.`
`01:11.49`	`Miravlix`	`You always end up installing something that mess it all up.`
`01:11.58`	`Tem`	`Im having a very strange issue with my laptop`
`01:12.12`	`Tem`	`it refuses to discover new USB devices`
`01:12.17`	`Kirkburn`	`hmm`
`01:12.21`	`Kirkburn`	`In any/all slots?`
`01:12.24`	`Tem`	`aye`
`01:12.36`	`Kirkburn`	`Updated any drivers?`
`01:12.50`	`Tem`	`however, if I reboot or plug stuff in before I turn it on, it find stuff`
`01:13.21`	`Tem`	`but if I disconnect stuff, it won't find it again until I reboot`
`01:13.21`	`Kirkburn`	`Sounds like some kind of auto-discover has got turned off`
`01:13.21`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Tem: What about if you log in and out?`
`01:13.30`	`Tem`	`oh, and trying to scan for hardware changes just locks up the device manager`
`01:13.34`	`Tem`	`GenNMX\|Thrae: haven't tried.`
`01:13.38`	`Tem`	`brb`
`01:14.01`	`Kirkburn`	`Tem, does the USB hub show in device manager?`
`01:14.15`	`Tem`	`I don't recall`
`01:14.16`	`Kirkburn`	`or controllers, even`
`01:15.07`	`Kirkburn`	`Well since we managed to skirt a *nix, IE, and Mac debate you all deserve a reward!`
`01:15.16`	`Kirkburn`	`Go buy Psychonauts!`
`01:15.39`	`Kirov`	`I have a feeling Tem's affinity for inserting random text in to function calls goes futher than the WoW api.`
`01:15.50`	`AnduinLothar`	`lol`
`01:16.00`	`Ktron`	`I think credit goes to BSPlayer and Tem's laptop`
`01:16.08`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Tem@ip70-177-40-169.br.br.cox.net)`
`01:16.14`	`Kirkburn`	`It's not a great name is it, BS players`
`01:16.18`	`Tem`	`yeah logout fixes it`
`01:16.20`	`AnduinLothar`	`kirk, we had out debate... we all won and got tired`
`01:16.23`	`AnduinLothar`	`our*`
`01:16.26`	`Kirkburn`	`:P`
`01:16.50`	`Miravlix`	`It's not Unix, IE and Mac, it's X-Windows, Windows and OS X`
`01:17.07`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Hey, Law & Order shows NYC cops using Dell Inspiron 600m laptops -- they're just in popular in fiction as in real life!`
`01:17.19`	`Kirkburn`	`omg omg!`
`01:17.21`	`AnduinLothar`	`i'm opinionated enough, but i don't actually enjoy debates... i prefer just winning`
`01:17.24`	`Kirkburn`	`I don't have one!`
`01:17.31`	`Kirkburn`	`Of course`
`01:17.38`	`Kirkburn`	`I'm a 9300er`
`01:17.44`	`Tem`	`ok, which one of you was asking about the device manager?`
`01:17.48`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Tem: Run System Recovery back to the last date USB worked`
`01:17.48`	`Kirkburn`	`Me?`
`01:17.55`	`Kirkburn`	`lol, extreme`
`01:18.00`	`Tem`	`GenNMX\|Thrae: I turned off System Recover`
`01:18.07`	`Kirkburn`	`lol, more extreme`
`01:18.09`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`why`
`01:18.14`	`Tem`	`because it's bunk`
`01:18.17`	`Kirkburn`	`It smelt funny?`
`01:18.17`	`AnduinLothar`	`system recovery hates me... it's always off when i need it`
`01:18.27`	`Kirkburn`	`You make me cry`
`01:18.27`	`Tem`	`and it's a fun place for viruses to hide`
`01:18.40`	`Kirkburn`	`Don't get bloody viruses then!`
`01:18.47`	`Tem`	`really, I haven't`
`01:18.51`	`AnduinLothar`	`it's cald... bi-monthly reformat`
`01:18.54`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`If you have a good virus scanner you should be fine, AVG Free makes it living scanning System Recovery folders`
`01:19.01`	`Kirkburn`	`Anyways`
`01:19.05`	`Kirkburn`	`Back to Tem`
`01:19.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`isn't it free?`
`01:19.20`	`AnduinLothar`	`how does it make a living?`
`01:19.22`	`Kirkburn`	`Does the usb stuff show up properly in device manager?`
`01:19.23`	`Tem`	`In nearly 2 years of having my laptop I've only gotten one virus`
`01:19.33`	`Tem`	`heh AVGFree is my virus scanner`
`01:19.41`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Then why worry about System Recovery?`
`01:19.44`	`Kirkburn`	`Well there you go`
`01:19.45`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Iriel (n=daniel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)`
`01:19.55`	`Tem`	`I'm not entirely certain what it should look like in there`
`01:20.00`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I only have it disabled on my computers because I do a manual backup every night of drivers and the registry`
`01:20.04`	`Tem`	`but theres a bunch of things listed`
`01:20.35`	`Kirkburn`	`Universal Serial Bus controllers, there should be quite a few`
`01:20.39`	`Tem`	`yeah`
`01:21.02`	`Kirkburn`	`You could try doing troubleshoot from the info pages for them`
`01:21.10`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Tem: Does Add New Hardware freeze when no usb devices are plugged in?`
`01:22.15`	`Tem`	`GenNMX\|Thrae: I haven't tried`
`01:22.25`	`Kirkburn`	`Who wants to see a Blood Elf dance?`
`01:22.34`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`01:22.40`	`Kirkburn`	`<PROTECTED>`
`01:23.10`	`Kirov`	`I just want to see the bug I'm working on not be broken at the moment`
`01:23.13`	`Kirkburn`	`Someone who needs to work on their camera skills ... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-369440845305749502`
`01:23.33`	`Kirkburn`	`(it's a vid of a Belfs dancing btw)`
`01:23.57`	`Kirkburn`	`And as if by magic, this appeared 2day ... 2 Belfs dancing! http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Movies.Detail&id=2`
`01:24.03`	`Miravlix`	`Kirov: You have broken bugs?`
`01:24.05`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphen (n=masked@c-67-183-238-150.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)`
`01:24.09`	`Miravlix`	`Can I have some of those. :)`
`01:24.23`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`01:25.37`	`Kirkburn`	`Coreiel is mean! http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-rogue/984313.htm`
`01:26.07`	`Kirkburn`	`Well I should be off`
`01:26.12`	`Kirkburn`	`BUY PSYCHONAUTS`
`01:26.15`	`Kirkburn`	`ahem`
`01:26.44`	`Kirkburn`	`So yeah, night night all! psychonautspsychonautspsychonautspsychonautspsychonautspsychonautspsychonautspsychonautspsychonauts`
`01:27.13`	`Miravlix`	`Ooh, Sarfy has an AQ with experimental 1.10 code.`
`01:27.33`	`AnduinLothar`	`oh? button mashing or just clicking?`
`01:28.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Fanook (n=thenerdw@heinze726.dacor.net)`
`01:28.38`	`AnduinLothar`	`ok... this whole 1 meal a day thing isn't cutting it`
`01:29.23`	`Miravlix`	`Pffft`
`01:29.36`	`Miravlix`	`He checks for version other than 1.9 and returns`
`01:29.50`	`Miravlix`	`Thought the good Sarf might have something, but noo. :/`
`01:30.15`	`Miravlix`	`YOu get one meal a day?`
`01:31.11`	`Miravlix`	`I got 3 snackbars and a soda yesterday. (2am+ here)`
`01:31.30`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`You people are not healthy`
`01:31.50`	`Miravlix`	`Nope, but we are damn fine coders`
`01:32.05`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I wish I had a skinny nerd's metabolism`
`01:32.27`	`Miravlix`	`Well, you wont get fat on 3 snackbars a day, thats not enough food.`
`01:32.44`	`Miravlix`	`You get fat on 3l coke, 3+ full meals and lots of snacks`
`01:33.00`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I have the hefty frame type, but I'm a nerd. If I exercised a lot, I could become seriously ripped like my biological father. But again, I'm a nerd ;)`
`01:33.07`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I drink Diet Coke between meals`
`01:33.13`	`AnduinLothar`	`1.5 meals and 3 miles of skating`
`01:33.44`	`AnduinLothar`	`= pretty good size`
`01:33.49`	`AnduinLothar`	`but hungry :(`
`01:33.52`	`Miravlix`	`Been hell since my back gave up on me, can't even go to the groccery shop without having back pains`
`01:34.42`	`Kirov`	`I found out today that diet coke gets broken down in to formaldehyde in your body.`
`01:34.45`	`AnduinLothar`	`so now i'm countering starvation with an artichoke`
`01:35.03`	`Miravlix`	`I'm pondering doing an garfield.`
`01:35.28`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Kirov: Diet Coke is not unhealthy in moderation.`
`01:35.39`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`LOTS of things are bad for you in severe excess.`
`01:35.49`	`Ktron`	`in fact, all things are`
`01:35.52`	`AnduinLothar`	`the good think about 1 meal a day is you can have steak whenever you want!`
`01:35.57`	`Ktron`	`name one thing that won't kill you if you have too much`
`01:36.06`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Ktron: Not gaining money ;)`
`01:36.21`	`Ktron`	`that's not a thing`
`01:36.29`	`Fanook`	`air?`
`01:36.39`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`AnduinLothar: When Sally Struthers gives you one, mistaking you for a third-world citizen.`
`01:36.46`	`AnduinLothar`	`might get you killed tho`
`01:36.56`	`Ktron`	`yep, if I put a bike pump down your throat and pump you up, you're not going to be very healthy`
`01:37.03`	`Miravlix`	`Air is highly toxic in overedosis`
`01:37.06`	`Iriel`	`Kirov : So does tomato juice`
`01:37.07`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Money isn't a thing?`
`01:37.10`	`AnduinLothar`	`not air....`
`01:37.14`	`AnduinLothar`	`oxygen is`
`01:37.24`	`Ktron`	`money is a thing... too little money and you can't afford food`
`01:37.35`	`Ktron`	`too much money and you'll be t3h robz0rs`
`01:37.47`	`Ktron`	`s/robz0rs/robbz0rsed/`
`01:37.57`	`Miravlix`	`Whats too much money?`
`01:38.38`	`AnduinLothar`	`$3`
`01:38.51`	`Miravlix`	`Ugh I'm flithy rich then.`
`01:38.54`	`Miravlix`	`I got 6$`
`01:39.04`	`Kirov`	`iriel - I'm glad I don't drink tomato juice`
`01:39.08`	`Ktron`	`you're going to get pwned Miravlix, carrying that much $$$`
`01:39.12`	`AnduinLothar`	`ew`
`01:40.08`	`Kirov`	`We need to ban dihydrogen oxide.`
`01:40.18`	`Ktron`	`I think it's OS-wiping time`
`01:40.21`	`Kirov`	`It causes the deaths of thousands of people every year`
`01:40.25`	`Fanook`	`aye, it's a deadly substance`
`01:41.23`	`Miravlix`	`My Windows installation is 3+ years old.`
`01:41.39`	`Miravlix`	`My Linux server installation is older than dirt.`
`01:42.14`	`Ktron`	`I couldn't imagine letting windows live that long`
`01:42.32`	`AnduinLothar`	`ya, so my 1 meal on my b-day on sat... lobster tail and a pound of crap legs with baked potato, ceaser salad and a mudslide`
`01:42.37`	`Ktron`	`I have to kill windows and reinstall probably every 3 months at most`
`01:42.41`	`AnduinLothar`	`crab lol`
`01:43.01`	`Fanook`	`My windows install is at least 3-4 years old, mostly cause i haven't had the time to do a wipe`
`01:43.19`	`Miravlix`	`My harddisk get changed more than my Windows installation.`
`01:43.30`	`Kirov`	`pound of crap legs ... must be korean food`
`01:43.32`	`Miravlix`	`It's always the disk that crash and make a restart required.`
`01:43.35`	`AnduinLothar`	`waiting that long is bad.. then you get all sorts of apps you'll miss and forget to reinstall`
`01:43.51`	`Ktron`	`Miravlix; what do you do with your computer?`
`01:44.05`	`Miravlix`	`You can do stuff with Windows?`
`01:44.07`	`AnduinLothar`	`leet coding`
`01:44.09`	`Fanook`	`i always go through my applications folder before i wipe and make a list of all the apps i want to reinstall :)`
`01:44.13`	`AnduinLothar`	`lol`
`01:44.26`	`Ktron`	`I make lists of the apps I need to install, and the order I should install them`
`01:44.35`	`AnduinLothar`	`your apps all install in the same folder?!`
`01:44.53`	`Ktron`	`I just check the Start Menu and the add/remove programs menu`
`01:44.58`	`Miravlix`	`Just make a custom build Windows install CD`
`01:45.01`	`Ktron`	`I usually have everything covered through those too`
`01:45.03`	`Fanook`	`i have a partition just for my apps :)`
`01:45.07`	`AnduinLothar`	`i was speaking more of utilities`
`01:45.39`	`Ktron`	`I have a partition for my media and World of Warcraft and projects, and everythign else (apps and OS) go on the main hard drive`
`01:46.01`	`Miravlix`	`I use Windows to play WoW and since my Linux machine crashed Lua programming, but normally all stuff is done on the Linux machine, I don't use Windows.`
`01:46.05`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Fanook: That doesn't always work with XP, even with junctions`
`01:46.53`	`Fanook`	`it's worked for me since i've done it. the hardest part was moving my data and home dir to one partition`
`01:47.02`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Windows inspires lazy programming because the OS tries to be so accomidating.`
`01:47.26`	`Ktron`	`GenNMX\|Thrae, junctions?`
`01:47.36`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Fanook: I've had some myriad apps where it used full paths instead of relative paths`
`01:47.39`	`Ktron`	`that isn't linking for windows, is it?`
`01:47.49`	`Fanook`	`guess i've been lucky`
`01:47.52`	`Miravlix`	`I'm going to start fresh since I'm upgrading to Windows XP 64`
`01:47.52`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Ktron: It's similiar to symbolic linking in Linux`
`01:48.00`	`Ktron`	`GenNMX\|Thrae; can you do it with directories?`
`01:48.19`	`Ktron`	`GenNMX\|Thrae; hard linking and symbolic linking in linux are features I've greatly missed`
`01:48.20`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Ktron: Yes, I had to use it with a WoW Addon once myself to link to my MP3 directory`
`01:48.21`	`Miravlix`	`Kton: Yes, it maps a harddisk partition to a direcory, pretty nice`
`01:48.45`	`Ktron`	`I'm looking it up right now, there's a good chance I'll take advantage of that :)`
`01:48.46`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Ktron: The junctioning program is made by Sysinternals`
`01:49.08`	`Fanook`	`so it's not built into windows? weak`
`01:49.11`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`It was never released with XP for some reason, even though it supports it`
`01:49.39`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Fanook: Windows does support junctioning, there's just no interface to utilize it.`
`01:49.44`	`Fanook`	`ah`
`01:49.46`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I should say, XP's NFTS`
`01:49.54`	`Fanook`	`classic MS logic`
`01:49.54`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`s/NFTS/NTFS/.`
`01:50.36`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`One reason may be that junctioning is not 100% perfect, there have been some known flaws`
`01:50.47`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Like linking C:\Program Files to G:\Program Files`
`01:51.12`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Some say that doesn't always work, but usually does`
`01:51.42`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Another application that MS never released that I use on a daily basis as part of my backup process is ROBOCOPY`
`01:51.57`	`Miravlix`	`If you reinstall the OS, you don't have to reinstall wow`
`01:51.58`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`It is THE command-line mass copying utility for XP`
`01:52.06`	`Miravlix`	`Just copy it over and run it and it's all ready to go`
`01:53.20`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Why not use xcopy in a pinch? Because xcopy has a big bug! It doesn't support paths over 2^16 characters long, and doesn't support non-English characters in your folder names`
`01:53.42`	`Miravlix`	`I should sue them for that name, I used it 10-20 years ago`
`01:53.48`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`That caused me nothing but headaches trying to do backups for clients before I found Robocopy, made by a Microsoft Developer, just never released`
`01:54.40`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Miravlix: Robocopy was never officially released, and it's an acronym for ROBust file COPY`
`01:55.13`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`It was tacked onto a dev kit for Windows 2000`
`01:55.20`	`Miravlix`	`We should sue them for having Bust in the name too`
`01:55.39`	`Miravlix`	`They can afford to settle out of court and make us all rich.`
`01:55.48`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I don't think you can sue them when they give it away for free :D`
`01:55.56`	`Miravlix`	`You can`
`01:56.10`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Unless you have a judge who hates Microsoft, you won't get very far`
`01:56.11`	`Miravlix`	`Giving something away free doesn't resolve all legal oblicgations`
`01:56.23`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Find one who uses Windows ME`
`01:56.26`	`AnduinLothar`	`viruses are free`
`01:56.54`	`Miravlix`	`Just because OSS is free, doesn't mean they can copy Windows.`
`01:56.59`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`AnduinLothar: I don't think people are suing the virus makers because of what they named them ;)`
`01:57.20`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I'm just talking about names and function here`
`01:58.23`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Miravlix: Have you ever tried out KDE in "Redmond" theme, by the way?`
`01:58.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kirov_ (n=Kirov@adsl-64-161-16-97.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`01:59.13`	`Miravlix`	`I'm not a Windows fan so any Windowsish look or whatever is pretty low on my list to try.`
`01:59.47`	`Kirov_`	`hmm`
`01:59.48`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Miravlix: KDE + Redmond Theme + Wine = trick people into thinking they're running Windows`
`02:00.20`	`Kirov_`	`why are there two of me connected`
`02:00.43`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I just saw another day a deal on Fry Electronics -- Linspire AMD Sempron 1.6GHz for $159 before taxes`
`02:00.43`	`Miravlix`	`Because this is the internet and timeouts is a feature?`
`02:00.56`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kaelten (n=Kaelten@68.63.3.183)`
`02:01.02`	`*** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ`
`02:01.06`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Kirov_: /msg NickServ kill ghost or ghost kill or something`
`02:01.23`	`Tem`	`hey Kaelten`
`02:01.38`	`Tem`	`I haven't loaded up firefox in a while, did you get the forums fixed?`
`02:01.38`	`Cairenn`	`hey Kaelten`
`02:01.44`	`Miravlix`	`Offcourse it wouldn't be the first time in history someone has started two version of there irc software.`
`02:03.00`	`Kaelten`	`Forums should be up now`
`02:03.15`	`Kaelten`	`just ran a repair on the db`
`02:04.15`	`Tem`	`coolbeans`
`02:09.04`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Kirov_ (n=Kirov@adsl-64-161-16-97.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`02:13.03`	`Tem`	`Oh noes!`
`02:13.22`	`Tem`	`someone in my guild is trying to force everyone to install KLHThreatMeter for Vael`
`02:13.33`	`AnduinLothar`	`:P`
`02:13.42`	`Tem`	`and they don't like my l2p response`
`02:13.52`	`AnduinLothar`	`12p?`
`02:14.17`	`Fanook`	`L2P`
`02:14.25`	`AnduinLothar`	`ah`
`02:14.42`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge JBBored (i=Reeses1o@r35h67.res.gatech.edu)`
`02:14.42`	`Tem`	`oh yay! one of the other officers agrees with me`
`02:17.27`	`JBBored`	`can someone help me with my Popup problem? o.O`
`02:17.39`	`Ktron`	`learn to play`
`02:17.45`	`JBBored`	`lol`
`02:17.52`	`Ktron`	`lol`
`02:18.04`	`Ktron`	`if you're talking in game, nope`
`02:18.09`	`Ktron`	`if you're talking out of game, perhaps`
`02:18.18`	`AnduinLothar`	`anyone know how to say 'is not equal to' in prolog?`
`02:18.24`	`JBBored`	`my popup won't release focus`
`02:18.53`	`JBBored`	`my popup editbox won't release focus more precisely`
`02:19.25`	`Iriel`	`JBBored : Can't you release it explicitly?`
`02:19.35`	`JBBored`	`Iriel: I have editBox:ClearFocus()`
`02:19.59`	`JBBored`	`and it just ignores it :/`
`02:20.47`	`AnduinLothar`	`you got keyboard enabled ont he frame?`
`02:21.17`	`JBBored`	`i'm using a StaticPopupDiaglogs definition`
`02:21.41`	`JBBored`	`http://wow.pastebin.com/600896 is the entire definition`
`02:22.10`	`Iriel`	`I believe the popup dialogs assume they get hidden when they're done with`
`02:22.26`	`Iriel`	`and they try to be somewhat modal`
`02:22.29`	`Legorol`	`does the editbox in the staticpopup have autoFocus="true"?`
`02:22.36`	`Legorol`	`if so, you can't clear focus with ClearFocus()`
`02:22.48`	`AnduinLothar`	`think that's an option`
`02:23.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`uncomment the hide in EditBoxOnEscapePressed`
`02:23.27`	`AnduinLothar`	`well..`
`02:23.34`	`AnduinLothar`	`that'll close the window anyway`
`02:24.06`	`Legorol`	`ok, just checked in StaticPopup.xml`
`02:24.11`	`Legorol`	`the edit boxes have autoFocus = true`
`02:24.21`	`JBBored`	`:(`
`02:24.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`ya, most windows close with escape`
`02:24.42`	`Legorol`	`i think the widget API should allow you to change that`
`02:24.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`ask slouken`
`02:24.54`	`Legorol`	`nope`
`02:24.58`	`Legorol`	`it does't :(`
`02:25.06`	`Legorol`	`ok, this is one more thing we need to be able to override FrameXML stuff`
`02:25.12`	`Legorol`	`we can't change autoFocus from Lua atm`
`02:25.14`	`Legorol`	`:/`
`02:25.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`i just recently rewrote some of that code to allow for multiline scrollable editboxes`
`02:25.23`	`AnduinLothar`	`int he popups`
`02:25.47`	`AnduinLothar`	`in all the cases i saw escape also closes`
`02:26.42`	`JBBored`	`so basically I have to make my own pop-up now?`
`02:26.54`	`Legorol`	`why do you want to be able to clear focus?`
`02:26.56`	`AnduinLothar`	`why do you want to lose focus?`
`02:26.59`	`Legorol`	`maybe there is a way around it?`
`02:27.08`	`AnduinLothar`	`you can hide the editbox`
`02:27.26`	`AnduinLothar`	`but why do you want a popup open without the editbox?`
`02:27.34`	`Legorol`	`i guess if you wanted to allow keyboard input to the rest of the UI whilst the staticpopup is visible...`
`02:27.51`	`JBBored`	`yea, i want keyboard access while the popup is visible`
`02:27.54`	`Legorol`	`JBBored, if you tell us what you want to do, maybe we can suggest some alternative`
`02:27.56`	`AnduinLothar`	`what for?`
`02:28.01`	`Iriel`	`But doesn't that defeat the basic aim of a static popup?`
`02:28.05`	`Legorol`	`yeah`
`02:28.07`	`Iriel`	`They're trying to solicit urgent input`
`02:28.08`	`AnduinLothar`	`pretty much`
`02:28.13`	`Iriel`	`Not just say 'oh hi, you can use me too'`
`02:28.25`	`JBBored`	`i see, so I should think of it as more for urgent input rather than general input`
`02:28.27`	`Legorol`	`staticpopus aren't designed to stay on the screen long`
`02:28.35`	`AnduinLothar`	`right`
`02:28.43`	`Legorol`	`they are placed in a pretty inconvenient location for that`
`02:28.47`	`AnduinLothar`	`they aren't draggable for good reason`
`02:29.02`	`AnduinLothar`	`not that that means much in wow..`
`02:29.03`	`Legorol`	`but if you really really need to, one possible workaround is this:`
`02:29.14`	`Legorol`	`have an editbox and a fontstring both ready`
`02:29.20`	`Legorol`	`always synch the text`
`02:29.25`	`AnduinLothar`	`and replace it onshow and onhide`
`02:29.31`	`Legorol`	`when you press escape, hide the box and show the string`
`02:29.38`	`JBBored`	`ah, i see`
`02:29.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`nah, just replace with your own editbox`
`02:29.44`	`Legorol`	`and when you click the string, hide the string and show the box`
`02:29.47`	`Iriel`	`Legorol: At that point aren't you screwing around with the popup too much?`
`02:29.52`	`Legorol`	`or as AnduinLothar says`
`02:29.55`	`AnduinLothar`	`but yes`
`02:29.57`	`Legorol`	`Iriel: yes you do`
`02:29.58`	`Iriel`	`Legorol : Or is that considered 'okay' for StaticPopups?`
`02:30.03`	`AnduinLothar`	`you are screwing with it`
`02:30.19`	`AnduinLothar`	`there is no OK... as long as no one claims it's 'intrusive'`
`02:30.19`	`Legorol`	`well maybe JBBored you could tell us what is in the popup?`
`02:31.09`	`AnduinLothar`	`my code flat out replaces a few functions.. i should make them sea hooks so they aren't invisible hooks..`
`02:31.19`	`JBBored`	`i'm using it to accept itemlinks that are shift-clicked from bags/bank/chatframe`
`02:31.28`	`Legorol`	`moral dilemma: is it acceptable to use AT on the test realms with the RunBinding exploit until they fix it?`
`02:31.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`I'm using AT at work..`
`02:31.50`	`Legorol`	`yeah but you are special...`
`02:31.54`	`Legorol`	`btw, you know what?`
`02:32.08`	`Legorol`	`if i posted on the forums that Blizz QA is allowed to AT whilst players aren't... you guys would be hanged :D`
`02:32.12`	`AnduinLothar`	`hell, i made a bot with Sky with passthrough code control execution..`
`02:32.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`it's test realms, who cares`
`02:32.49`	`Ktron`	`I've just discovered somethign ridiculuous`
`02:32.50`	`JBBored`	`lol`
`02:32.50`	`Legorol`	`what i don't understand is... what do you need AT for? can't you just teleport?`
`02:33.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`yup, but if your in the same zone it's too complicated to find the coords`
`02:33.26`	`Legorol`	`another question: if blizz QA feels that running around in the game is too tedious and needs automation..`
`02:33.32`	`Legorol`	`doesn't that apply to players too?`
`02:33.35`	`Ktron`	`apparently the phrase 'st ar tk ey lo gg er' without any spaces kicks people off of IRC if they're running the right progam`
`02:33.36`	`Ktron`	`*program`
`02:33.39`	`Legorol`	`i mean i see a degree of hypocrisy here..`
`02:33.40`	`AnduinLothar`	`lol, no one else does, just me`
`02:34.02`	`Gryphen`	`AnduinLothar was a player before a QA`
`02:34.03`	`Legorol`	`Ktron: only if they are running a certain edition of Norton Internet Security suite`
`02:34.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`i'm a hacker before an employee anyway`
`02:34.22`	`Legorol`	`fair enough`
`02:34.23`	`Gryphen`	`not goin to drop all your playstyle because of a job change`
`02:34.26`	`Ktron`	`yeah, Legorol`
`02:34.35`	`Ktron`	`I'm so, so tempted to try it`
`02:34.40`	`Ktron`	`and see if anyone here gets booted`
`02:34.41`	`Legorol`	`shrugs`
`02:34.44`	`AnduinLothar`	`so you'd only really get me in trouble`
`02:34.53`	`Legorol`	`would never do that to you`
`02:35.14`	`Legorol`	`but ehm.. isn't the point of QA is so taht you play it like the players do?`
`02:35.27`	`AnduinLothar`	`thx. ya. most of the rest of qa runs with as few mods as possible`
`02:35.35`	`Ktron`	`AT?`
`02:35.40`	`Cairenn`	`autotravel`
`02:35.48`	`Legorol`	`oh and i was going to ask this bit: you guys are told not to run mods... but.. there is this whole big community out there`
`02:35.48`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`The job of QA is to break it as much as possible`
`02:35.53`	`Legorol`	`so doesn't it make sense to at least try for 5 minutes with mods?`
`02:35.54`	`Ktron`	`ah`
`02:36.00`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`The final phase of QA testing is "normal play"`
`02:36.01`	`Legorol`	`i mean.. QA should've been able to see the tradeskill bug`
`02:36.05`	`Iriel`	`Legorol : Blizzard doesn't SUPPORT the game with mods.`
`02:36.08`	`AnduinLothar`	`hey, don't ask me about WHY my bosses tell me things..`
`02:36.10`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Most times you just try to break it`
`02:36.15`	`Legorol`	`Iriel: yeah i know that`
`02:36.27`	`Legorol`	`but the thing with the tradeskill + erroneous block is...`
`02:36.35`	`Legorol`	`hm.. something you find out after 5 minutes of playing with mods`
`02:36.44`	`AnduinLothar`	`if you ask me it's easier to find obscure bugs using mods..`
`02:37.00`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Like running behind a field pole to catch your own goal in a football game -- who would do something like this?`
`02:37.01`	`Iriel`	`I imagine they count on the community (or their employees) finding those bugs on their own time.`
`02:37.11`	`AnduinLothar`	`basicly`
`02:37.12`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`A QA Tester would ;)`
`02:37.57`	`AnduinLothar`	`hell, we play blizzard games at lunch and after work... we're all pretty much addicts anyway...`
`02:38.28`	`Legorol`	`the thing is, Blizz seems to care enough about the modding community that they'd fix the tradeskill bug`
`02:38.40`	`Legorol`	`but not care enough to allow a single QA guy 5 minutes to play with loadsa addons?`
`02:38.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`iriel, got any idea how to say 'Var1 is not Var2' in prolog?`
`02:38.51`	`Legorol`	`anyways, gnight folks`
`02:39.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`i never said we NEVER play with addons...`
`02:39.46`	`AnduinLothar`	`but that's already more than i can say`
`02:39.51`	`Iriel`	`AnduinLothar : I dont know prolog well enough, btu can't you just say essentially 'not (var1 is var2)'`
`02:40.07`	`AnduinLothar`	`maybe..`
`02:40.54`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`I bet Blizz has like 1 full-time guy who does all the mod testing in conjuction with misc. other testing`
`02:41.25`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`But not religiously`
`02:41.29`	`AnduinLothar`	`Syntax error: Operator expected`
`02:41.59`	`Iriel`	`AnduinLothar : This may help a little, I dunno: http://www.codecomments.com/archive277-2005-10-656754.html`
`02:42.00`	`AnduinLothar`	`what's that tradeskill + erroneous block thing?`
`02:42.34`	`Legorol`	`if you have any addon enabled when you click Create All in a tradeskill frame,`
`02:42.43`	`Legorol`	`a randomly chosen addon gets blamed for executing a blocked function`
`02:43.04`	`Legorol`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-interface-customization&T=331202&P=2`
`02:43.08`	`Legorol`	`post 21 onwards or so`
`02:43.10`	`AnduinLothar`	`email it to me`
`02:43.15`	`Legorol`	`it's been fixed already`
`02:43.18`	`Legorol`	`slouken knows about it`
`02:43.20`	`AnduinLothar`	`nm then`
`02:43.25`	`AnduinLothar`	`i'm out!`
`02:43.27`	`Legorol`	`bye`
`02:43.38`	`AnduinLothar`	`thx iriel`
`02:45.16`	`JBBored`	`thanks for your help guys :)`
`02:45.50`	`Cairenn`	`later Iriel, AnduinLothar`
`02:55.43`	`Tem`	`good lord`
`02:55.57`	`Tem`	`after our next Ony kill, ALL of our warriors will have a Quel`
`02:56.32`	`Ktron`	`isn't that one of the signs of the wowpalypse`
`02:57.14`	`Tem`	`so we will have 8 warriors with a Quel`
`02:57.23`	`Tem`	`(probably 1 or 2 more but I've lost track)`
`02:59.55`	`Codayus`	`The DM North exploit has really driven prices down.`
`03:00.07`	`Codayus`	`Saw two books going for 1k two days ago. oO`
`03:00.26`	`Tem`	`they are down to 6 and 7 hundred gold on my server`
`03:01.22`	`Codayus`	`Not that everyone's got the memo. My brother bought one for 1150 three days ago, sold it for 2k yesterday. It sold off the AH while someone was spamming trade trying to sell one for 1500. A bit odd...`
`03:02.07`	`Codayus`	`600? Wow, that's sick.`
`03:02.30`	`Tem`	`yeah`
`03:02.39`	`Tem`	`it's within reach for pallies now`
`03:03.07`	`Codayus`	`At 600, I might buy a couple just in case I ever decided to roll a character that could equip it. :-P`
`03:03.10`	`Tem`	`but what's funny is someone in the guild bought one for 2400 gold like 2 months ago`
`03:03.17`	`Codayus`	`Doh`
`03:04.05`	`Codayus`	`Class trinket books are dirt cheap too, not that anyone cares. 5-6g a piece...`
`03:04.43`	`Ktron`	`prices should go back up with 1.10 too`
`03:04.50`	`Ktron`	`might even make sense to buy a few of them`
`03:04.54`	`Codayus`	`Hmmm.`
`03:04.59`	`Ktron`	`600 now... maybe 1k after the patch`
`03:05.09`	`Ktron`	`or higher`
`03:05.13`	`Codayus`	`Yeah? Is the exploit being fixed?`
`03:05.34`	`Ktron`	`I think so... I think that when you attack him, he calls all remaining people to him?`
`03:05.40`	`Ktron`	`something like that was the problem, right?`
`03:05.53`	`Ktron`	`(as in, you could sneak in and kill the boss over and over)`
`03:05.54`	`Codayus`	`I have no idea of the details of the current exploit.`
`03:06.08`	`Ktron`	`I _think_ that's it, but I don't really know`
`03:06.22`	`Codayus`	`It apparently involves hunters, teleport hacks, and a single hunter soloing king gordok without his friends.`
`03:06.56`	`Ktron`	`heh, then that's not what I'm talking about`
`03:07.12`	`Codayus`	`<shrug> I could be totally offbase.`
`03:08.14`	`Codayus`	`But I believe the current problem involves a single hunter soloing in King Gordok. Umm....oh, you're talking about people farming Warpwood in DM West? Yeah, I know that's being changed.`
`03:08.25`	`Ktron`	`they changed a boss in DM, so that in 1.10 he will call for aid all living mobs in the instance`
`03:08.29`	`Codayus`	`I don't think that's what's causing the massive flood of Quel books.`
`03:08.34`	`Ktron`	`yeah`
`03:08.38`	`Ktron`	`that's what I was talking about`
`03:08.41`	`Ktron`	`and okay, I lose`
`03:08.44`	`Ktron`	`I'm not that informed`
`03:08.49`	`Codayus`	`Neither am I. :-P`
`03:08.57`	`Codayus`	`Oh well, we'll see.`
`03:09.24`	`Codayus`	`But if I see any quel books for 600, I might buy a couple anyhow. Make a good paper weight if nothing else. :-P`
`03:09.42`	`Ktron`	`I'm sure it will be fixed at some point`
`03:12.10`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge cladhaire (n=jnwhiteh@cpe-24-59-191-241.twcny.res.rr.com)`
`03:18.07`	`MentalPower`	`gnight guys`
`03:19.58`	`Cairenn`	`night MentalPower`
`03:23.40`	`Fanook`	`yay for 1.5 sec lag`
`03:27.04`	`Ktron`	`I think it's time to wipe windows away`
`03:27.09`	`Ktron`	`I've made my list...`
`03:27.25`	`Ktron`	`All I have to do is be willing to give up being able to use the computer for a while:)`
`03:28.37`	`Fanook`	`wish i could do that, being a CS student in the middle of the semester makes it difficult to kill my productivity for a few days`
`03:30.45`	`Ktron`	`heh`
`03:30.55`	`Ktron`	`I expect it will only kill my productivity for a few hours`
`03:31.00`	`Ktron`	`I know exactly what needs doing`
`03:31.11`	`Ktron`	`and I keep one hard drive intact, so I can save a lot of files`
`03:32.18`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ScytheBlade1 (n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1)`
`03:33.19`	`Ktron`	`heh, I actually save my entire World of Warcraft installation every time`
`03:33.46`	`Ktron`	`World of Warcraft takes far too long to ever consider reinstalling seriously`
`03:38.30`	`Codayus`	`I did it once.`
`03:38.43`	`Codayus`	`If I have to do it again, I'm going on a bersek rampage.`
`03:39.01`	`Ktron`	`lol`
`03:39.03`	`Ktron`	`I'm used to it`
`03:39.13`	`Fanook`	`indeed, you'd think they could do a batch update so you don't have to download like 10 different patches in a row`
`03:39.37`	`Ktron`	`I require my computer to work as it is supposed to`
`03:43.55`	`Miravlix`	`Anyone made an addon that shows how many hours you have spent sheeped?`
`03:44.00`	`Ktron`	`lol`
`03:44.29`	`Ktron`	`if you make that, make an option to let it you show how many hours you've kept other players sheeped`
`03:44.29`	`Miravlix`	`I'm playing a gnome warrior, so mages really loves to sheep me`
`03:44.37`	`Miravlix`	`Since nothing else works.`
`03:44.49`	`Ktron`	`sure there are things`
`03:44.54`	`Ktron`	`you can still be slowed`
`03:45.01`	`Ktron`	`and you can only escape frost nova once`
`03:45.02`	`Miravlix`	`Escape Artist breaks it`
`03:45.12`	`Ktron`	`what is the cooldown on escape artist?`
`03:45.21`	`Miravlix`	`Like a need more than once to whack a mage. o.O`
`03:45.26`	`Ktron`	`and I didn't know escape artist worked on cold slowing effectives`
`03:45.36`	`Miravlix`	`Mage is da squishy`
`03:45.43`	`Ktron`	`I'd frost nova, get some distance, and then cone of cold you`
`03:45.45`	`Miravlix`	`It removes snares and roots`
`03:45.58`	`Miravlix`	`Intercept...`
`03:46.02`	`Ktron`	`(if you were still moving after the frost nova)`
`03:46.04`	`Miravlix`	`You wont be out of range.`
`03:46.18`	`Ktron`	`I'd blink after the intercept`
`03:46.30`	`Miravlix`	`You aren't out of range of intercept`
`03:46.39`	`Ktron`	`after the intercept`
`03:46.44`	`Ktron`	`you stun me with intercept, then I blink`
`03:46.51`	`Ktron`	`so I'm further away again, and you're still slowed`
`03:47.04`	`Ktron`	`and then I'd have to stay away until frost nova's cold down was up`
`03:47.14`	`Ktron`	`and maybe hope for impact to go off once or twice`
`03:47.25`	`Miravlix`	`I whakc you once for fatilion damage, you frost shock me, I whack you again and you blink or die`
`03:47.36`	`Ktron`	`I don't have frost shock ;)`
`03:47.43`	`Miravlix`	`frost nova who cares`
`03:47.56`	`Ktron`	`and most warriors my level it takes closer to 4 hits to kill me`
`03:48.03`	`Ktron`	`than 2`
`03:48.35`	`Miravlix`	`It's actually a help for me with the delay between contact`
`03:48.44`	`Ktron`	`but I probably would sheep you if you were higher level than me or trying to gank me (ie attacking me when I was fighting a mob or low on health and mana)`
`03:48.47`	`Miravlix`	`It means I can get my timer reset on swing anyway`
`03:49.27`	`Miravlix`	`I killed a 44 mage earlier because he frost nova didn't keep me locked down. I'm 39`
`03:49.47`	`Miravlix`	`On my own mage thats alliance I can toy with warriors`
`03:49.54`	`Miravlix`	`Until they die from fattigue chasing me`
`03:50.38`	`Ktron`	`it's probably mostly surprise that gives you an edge`
`03:50.47`	`Ktron`	`I'm sure mages can deal with you`
`03:50.58`	`Miravlix`	`The difference between having working CC and fighting a race that can counter it, is huge.`
`03:50.58`	`Ktron`	`just most mags don't expect escape artist`
`03:51.13`	`Ktron`	`CC?`
`03:51.27`	`Miravlix`	`Crowd Control`
`03:51.34`	`Ktron`	`heh`
`03:51.44`	`Miravlix`	`Frost Nova is crowd control`
`03:51.55`	`Ktron`	`well, not if you're using it against one person`
`03:52.00`	`Ktron`	`then its just a slow/snare`
`03:52.01`	`Miravlix`	`So is sheep.`
`03:52.10`	`Ktron`	`sheep is definitely a CC`
`03:52.13`	`Miravlix`	`It's still a CC ability`
`03:52.22`	`Ktron`	`I suppose, but it's not really what you're using it for`
`03:52.31`	`Ktron`	`just like sheep isn't a CC if you're using it to drown people`
`03:52.38`	`Miravlix`	`give it a rest, it's beeen a CC ability since the invention of WoW, because you think otherwise doesn't change it.`
`03:53.07`	`Ktron`	`Blizzard doesn't label abilities as CC or not, therefore its always opinion, whether yours, mine, or someone elses`
`03:54.02`	`Ktron`	`Regardless, your original sentence implies that Crowd Control is important, and it isn't, only slowing/snaring is important`
`03:54.10`	`Ktron`	`For the discussion we were having`
`03:54.45`	`Ktron`	`Either your definition is wrong or your use was wrong. Take your pick, Miravlix.`
`03:55.13`	`Miravlix`	`...`
`03:58.23`	`Miravlix`	`Anyone want to gramma and spell check every line I wrote now too, I'm sure there is lots of irrelevant errors like that too in my lines.`
`03:58.28`	`Cairenn`	`civility`
`04:06.50`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge groll (n=hepp@62.119.159.41)`
`04:15.23`	`Ktron\|afk`	`I'm out, not that I'm particularly critical to anything that goes on in here:)... I'll be back in a few hour, or tomorrow some time, need to clean up the system:)`
`04:18.47`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Wobin_ (n=wob@221.221.26.207)`
`04:22.49`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust242.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`04:58.28`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Eraphine\|Disco (n=Eraphine@brenna.human.cornell.edu)`
`05:52.05`	`Shadowd`	`Well thats an interesting bug`
`06:03.15`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge slouken (n=Sam@ip68-5-42-243.oc.oc.cox.net)`
`06:03.21`	`Kaelten`	`hey slouken`
`06:03.27`	`slouken`	`Heya. :)`
`06:03.34`	`Cairenn`	`hey slouken`
`06:04.27`	`Shadowd`	`So being able to go as high as you want ( like with the hourglass bug ) in a macro isn't allowed i'm assuming?`
`06:17.07`	`krka`	`don't be silly, getting high must be considered a feature`
`06:23.22`	`Crispix`	`ehhhg.`
`06:23.26`	`Crispix`	`I hate being sick :(`
`07:17.39`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge [MoonWolf] (n=MoonWolf@a80-127-128-193.adsl.xs4all.nl)`
`07:19.19`	`Corrodias`	`and i love other people being sick. therefore, it balances out.`
`07:23.18`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge krka\|work (n=kristofe@66.217.181.62.in-addr.dgcsystems.net)`
`07:27.55`	`Cairenn`	`night all, sleep time for me`
`07:28.11`	`[MoonWolf]`	`night Cairenn\|sleep`
`07:28.43`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower_ (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net)`
`09:03.44`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (i=the_real@tux.nerdheaven.dk)`
`09:52.33`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shade-Percha (n=Shade_Pe@139.164.132.13)`
`09:59.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (i=the_real@tux.nerdheaven.dk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`10:04.09`	`Shade-Percha`	`Hello :)`
`10:28.55`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kalroth (n=kalroth@195.215.170.222)`
`10:51.26`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (i=the_real@tux.nerdheaven.dk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`13:09.08`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust242.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`13:26.58`	`Kalroth`	`silence of the lurkers!`
`13:30.18`	`Legorol`	`?`
`13:32.05`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge JoshBorke (n=Josh@antimatter.stl.gtri.gatech.edu)`
`13:32.25`	`Wobin_`	`murf?`
`13:32.32`	`End`	`turf`
`13:32.36`	`JoshBorke`	`it's maintenance tuesday :-(`
`13:33.01`	`Wobin_`	`oh so it is`
`13:33.08`	`Wobin_`	`And I was about to go log on`
`13:33.27`	`Kalroth`	`Get an EU account, then you can play 24/7!`
`13:33.41`	`Maldivia`	`Or just play on test?`
`13:37.09`	`Wobin_`	`That would involve effort in downloading it`
`13:37.13`	`Wobin_`	`When I can just play NWN`
`13:39.32`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Hlaalu (n=PircBot@a80-127-128-193.adsl.xs4all.nl)`
`13:49.07`	`Miravlix`	`It's good with some breaks, it allows me to go shopping once a week`
`13:50.14`	`Legorol`	`yah test realms are a pain, they make you play 24/7 ;-)`
`13:55.36`	`AnduinLothar`	`gah.. this prolog is driving me bonkers`
`13:55.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`it solves top down in stead of solving for all facts`
`13:56.04`	`AnduinLothar`	`owns my brain`
`13:57.34`	`krka\|work`	`i feel your pain`
`14:08.24`	`End`	`that's prolog for you`
`14:26.14`	`AnduinLothar`	`i cant for the life of my figure out how to have exclusivity`
`14:26.44`	`[MoonWolf]`	`why the hell do you use prolog /`
`14:26.47`	`[MoonWolf]`	`?*`
`14:26.54`	`AnduinLothar`	`it's a fucking hw assignment`
`14:27.21`	`[MoonWolf]`	`:(`
`14:28.05`	`AnduinLothar`	`one which is making me very angry and losing me time to study for a quiz for another class i'm failing..`
`14:29.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`and no one seems to have any idea what i'm talkign about so there's no one to ask questions..`
`14:30.08`	`AnduinLothar`	`and i swear the docs where written by a monkey`
`14:30.51`	`JoshBorke`	`:-(`
`14:30.52`	`AnduinLothar`	`it's like the author thinks completely different than me and has no idea how to communicate except in math i don't understand using symbols they pulled out of their ass`
`14:43.24`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide (i=Cide@81-226-233-5-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
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`15:29.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower\|PC (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net)`
`15:41.00`	`Wobin_`	`anyone encountered "invalid order function for sorting."?`
`15:41.27`	`Wobin_`	`which only occurs for some people all the time and some others some of the time and the rest none of the time?`
`15:43.50`	`Wobin_`	`Too tired to bugcheck =`
`15:43.51`	`Wobin_`	`\`
`15:43.53`	`Wobin_`	`night =)`
`16:04.50`	`Adrine`	`If I were guessing, I'd say that you're providing a custom function to a table.sort that isn't returning a valid value due to bad data.`
`16:07.42`	`AnduinLothar`	`i hate it when you get so tired that your knees start aching`
`16:08.01`	`Adrine`	`It's generally my eyes that go first.`
`16:08.47`	`ckknight`	`when I get super tired, I get endorphin rushes`
`16:08.48`	`AnduinLothar`	`after about 20 hours my eyes don't close due to caffine`
`16:08.49`	`ckknight`	`then I'm not so tired`
`16:09.04`	`AnduinLothar`	`but my body aches`
`16:09.49`	`AnduinLothar`	`if i don't do anything for a while i start staring into space and then my eyes goes byebye.. but if i keep um busy it's ok`
`16:10.03`	`AnduinLothar`	`yay, i beat the prolog!`
`16:10.09`	`AnduinLothar`	`no more...`
`16:10.13`	`AnduinLothar`	`on to haskel..`
`16:10.28`	`Adrine`	`What happens for me is that my eyes start burning, so I reeeeally want to close 'em.`
`16:10.40`	`Adrine`	`What on earth are you doing that requires prolog and haskel?`
`16:10.54`	`AnduinLothar`	`hw in a programming language class`
`16:11.02`	`Adrine`	`Ahhh, ok.`
`16:11.06`	`Adrine`	`Yeah, I rememer that one.`
`16:11.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`I can't say that I've actually learned either of them..`
`16:12.04`	`Adrine`	`I tend to stick to procedural/OO paradigms and let the crazy people actually learn the logical/functional ones. :)`
`16:12.09`	`AnduinLothar`	`the prolog i actually kinda cheated on, cause I found a discussion page in japanese on a similar problem and bablefished it`
`16:12.21`	`AnduinLothar`	`but that was after 6 hours of scratching my head`
`16:13.37`	`AnduinLothar`	`and having never seen an even remotely advanced prolog example or tutorial I am quite proud of simple figuring out the syntax`
`16:13.49`	`Adrine`	`Hehe, awesome`
`16:15.24`	`AnduinLothar`	`now.... the first big challenge will be figuring out how to run haskel on my mac`
`16:16.13`	`AnduinLothar`	`since my prof never even bothered to tell us how to install the pc app... just gave us it's name and had it install in the lab... yesterday`
`16:16.43`	`AnduinLothar`	`i'll be glad when this quarter's over... these classes all suck..`
`16:17.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`i thought having all comp sci classes would be more interesting... it just means all using one side of the brain and it gets burned out faster`
`16:17.30`	`Adrine`	`Do you have gcc or the mac equivalent?`
`16:17.39`	`AnduinLothar`	`ya`
`16:17.44`	`Adrine`	`(I'm not sure what OS X ships with in terms of dev tools)`
`16:17.48`	`AnduinLothar`	`i'm sure i can find a build`
`16:17.54`	`Adrine`	`http://haskell.org/hugs/`
`16:18.01`	`Adrine`	`Implementation in ANSI C`
`16:18.03`	`Adrine`	`So it should compile ok`
`16:18.04`	`ckknight`	`Xcode should be on the OS X DVD`
`16:18.14`	`Adrine`	`Oh, look`
`16:18.17`	`Adrine`	`There's a port for it. :)`
`16:19.38`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@rhhe10-109.2wcm.comporium.net)`
`16:21.51`	`AnduinLothar`	`why does it need xcode..`
`16:22.02`	`Adrine`	`Looks like it doesn't.`
`16:22.13`	`Adrine`	`I just hit the front page and it said "Hey, written in C, should compile anywhere"`
`16:22.19`	`Adrine`	`So...yeah. :)`
`16:22.34`	`AnduinLothar`	`no, i mean DarwinPorts the mac port`
`16:25.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide- (i=Cide@81-226-233-5-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`16:30.19`	`AnduinLothar`	`this is going to be a pain.. maybe it's time to dust of vpc`
`16:33.51`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Good morning, people.`
`16:33.57`	`AnduinLothar`	`morning anyway`
`16:34.02`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Good morning, undergrads.`
`16:34.54`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Seems like CS professors never change.`
`16:35.10`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Tho in my day it was Simula, Lisp, APL, and Snobol.`
`16:35.23`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`No serious functional languages available at that time.`
`16:35.33`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Oh, yeah, and Algol.`
`16:35.48`	`AnduinLothar`	`i've done some lisp out of those..`
`16:35.50`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge [MoonWolf] (n=moonwolf@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`16:37.46`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Actually, if I was teaching CS, I think I'd include Lua in the set these days.`
`16:38.09`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`A tiny language in which you can use all your standard programming tricks.`
`16:38.16`	`AnduinLothar`	`lua ftw`
`16:38.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`pythons fun too`
`16:38.32`	`ckknight`	`I dunno, I don't think Lua would be good for beginning programming`
`16:38.36`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I wouldn't use both Python and Lua.`
`16:38.37`	`ckknight`	`seems more like intermediate level`
`16:38.46`	`Adrine`	`Lua is not a good language to teach in, IMO`
`16:38.53`	`Adrine`	`It doesn't implement enough fundamentals`
`16:39.00`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`We're talking about the languages you use to expose CS students to variety.`
`16:39.06`	`AnduinLothar`	`that's cause they're all implimented for you :)`
`16:39.11`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Adrine: Exactly.`
`16:39.34`	`Adrine`	`Well, Lua's just kinda your run-of-the-mill procedural scripting language`
`16:39.43`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`That's exactly why Lua should be included in a 'breadth set'. It shows students how to implement the fundanmentals given a small base set.`
`16:39.57`	`Adrine`	`It has some interesting variety in that you can simulate objects with its tables, but for the most part, it isn't really unique.`
`16:40.03`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Adrine: Run-of-the-mill? No. It's elegant in its simplicity.`
`16:40.12`	`AnduinLothar`	`depends... are you teaching so the student knows the most in the least amount of time? Or is your goal to let them be most productive in the least amount of time.`
`16:40.21`	`Adrine`	`I'll definitely agree that it's elegant`
`16:40.52`	`Adrine`	`But as far as the language goes, it's not anything different enough from <insert scripting language here> to really set it apart, other than the fact that it's embeddable and is designed to be so.`
`16:41.51`	`AnduinLothar`	`now if onyl we could squeeze some more efficiency out of it`
`16:41.55`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`In a first class, the focus is on data structures and algorithms. Choose a good language. In a 2nd class, breadth of languages available is a core component. Lua deserves a place as an elegant, tiny language. You should also have at least one strongly typed language, a functional language, and some exotic language.`
`16:42.39`	`krka\|work`	`haskell is both functional and strongly typed, yay!`
`16:42.54`	`AnduinLothar`	`and painful`
`16:43.03`	`krka\|work`	`not compared to prolog :P`
`16:43.10`	`AnduinLothar`	`spose`
`16:43.24`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Lua also provides some features not common in some other languages, like closures. So you can teach some things you can't with, say, Java.`
`16:43.57`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I'm not a Perl hacker: Does it support closures?`
`16:44.37`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@204.90.50.252)`
`16:44.52`	`[MoonWolf]`	`exotic language: brainfuck.`
`16:44.56`	`Adrine`	`Heh.`
`16:45.13`	`ckknight`	`I made a Brainfuck compiler for .NET a little while ago`
`16:45.17`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@204.90.50.252)`
`16:45.18`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Are you describing the impact, or is that a name of one?`
`16:45.29`	`Adrine`	`That's an actual language.`
`16:45.30`	`[MoonWolf]`	`if someone write a hello world in your classes in brainfuck, they deserve an extra point to their grade.`
`16:45.30`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Nm. Question answered.`
`16:45.38`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@204.90.50.252)`
`16:46.47`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@204.90.50.252)`
`16:46.55`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Ah, yes.`
`16:47.09`	`AnduinLothar`	`http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/`
`16:47.13`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`The standard corollary from my day was Markov's algorithms.`
`16:47.26`	`Tem`	`finally`
`16:47.28`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cairenn (n=Cairenn@CPE001217452e29-CM014500004571.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`16:47.28`	`*** mode/#wowi-lounge [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ`
`16:47.35`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`But the assignment was to implement the language, and write a couple simple programs in it.`
`16:48.10`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`And/or write a compiler to it from some other stripped-down language.`
`16:48.12`	`[MoonWolf]`	`write a prime number calculator in brainfuck.`
`16:48.28`	`AnduinLothar`	`ya, we had to impliment a turing language parser and compiler in java and write a few programs for it`
`16:49.28`	`[MoonWolf]`	`writing a compiler.. isnt that a pretty hefty task on itself ?`
`16:49.45`	`AnduinLothar`	`it was intro to the next class`
`16:49.52`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Depends on the language and the final form.`
`16:49.57`	`AnduinLothar`	`it was also half implimented for us`
`16:50.02`	`[MoonWolf]`	`aha`
`16:50.08`	`AnduinLothar`	`fill in the blank style`
`16:50.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`so we didn't have to do structural design`
`16:50.25`	`[MoonWolf]`	`in that case its pretty fun and doable.`
`16:50.27`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I can write a compiler that compiles Lua into Lua fairly easily. :P`
`16:50.27`	`AnduinLothar`	`just implimentation`
`16:51.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net)`
`16:51.23`	`[MoonWolf]`	`a language is only a language if you can write a compiler for itself in it`
`16:51.28`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Lua into Brainf**k would be pretty easy, too, depending on the level of optimization.`
`16:51.30`	`[MoonWolf]`	`but that doesnt make it easy.`
`16:51.40`	`[MoonWolf]`	`not for me anyway.`
`16:51.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`lol... the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck entry is humerous`
`16:51.54`	`ckknight`	`it's really not as hard as you think`
`16:53.09`	`AnduinLothar`	`actually, there's a hello world right there`
`16:53.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`<PROTECTED>`
`16:54.12`	`Adrine`	`http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages :)`
`16:54.57`	`[MoonWolf]`	`there is a language called borg!!!`
`16:55.05`	`AnduinLothar`	`saw that :)`
`16:55.18`	`AnduinLothar`	`main: "Hello, world!\n">out :`
`16:55.19`	`Adrine`	`Ook! is friggin' hilarious.`
`16:55.30`	`[MoonWolf]`	`lol`
`16:55.36`	`AnduinLothar`	`so is chef`
`16:55.58`	`[MoonWolf]`	`piet is original`
`16:56.21`	`ckknight`	`Chef looks awesome`
`16:56.26`	`AnduinLothar`	`lol, null`
`16:56.44`	`[MoonWolf]`	`chef is the ultimate obfuscating language`
`16:56.45`	`AnduinLothar`	`lol, ya ook! is killing me`
`16:57.03`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Hmm. Thanks for the info.`
`16:57.25`	`AnduinLothar`	`I should write a lua > chef converter..`
`16:57.40`	`ckknight`	`ook is just brainfuck`
`16:57.43`	`AnduinLothar`	`and then a lua interpriter`
`16:58.02`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I've decided to write a Lua->Brainfk compiler, and a Brainfk interpreter, and debug my addons in Lua, but release them in Brainf*k. Security through obscurity. Take that, Thottbot!`
`16:58.12`	`[MoonWolf]`	`lol`
`16:58.19`	`ckknight`	`lol`
`16:58.33`	`Adrine`	`Heh.`
`16:59.00`	`AnduinLothar`	`transcript, lol`
`16:59.34`	`AnduinLothar`	`var'aq - Note: actually prints "What do you want, universe?" in Klingon.`
`16:59.37`	`[MoonWolf]`	`Qzot\|atwork, the problem is that as lua is a scripting language and you need ot procide the interpreter half a decent coder can unobfuscate it.`
`17:00.37`	`ckknight`	`2D programming languages are kinda neat`
`17:00.46`	`[MoonWolf]`	`and hard to read.`
`17:00.51`	`ckknight`	`right`
`17:01.22`	`Adrine`	`You know, someone really needs to write a nice sandbox for mod development.`
`17:01.35`	`Adrine`	`Because I'm sitting here at work working on an addon that I won't be able to test till tonight.`
`17:02.21`	`Adrine`	`I can't imagine it'd be too terribly hard. You'd need any image/sound/font resources you use, just parse the XML, build your interface, stub the API functions, and provide a method for allowing the programmer to trigger events.`
`17:02.35`	`Adrine`	`For the most part you could stub most stuff.`
`17:03.56`	`ckknight`	`http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/report/shakespeare/shakespeare.html#sec:hello`
`17:04.56`	`groll`	`hmm anyone know of a good bagsort addon?`
`17:05.23`	`Adrine`	`What are you looking to do, groll?`
`17:05.33`	`groll`	`sort item x to bag x kinda`
`17:05.40`	`groll`	`or such`
`17:05.45`	`groll`	`i dont like messy bags :P`
`17:05.45`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower_ (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net)`
`17:05.55`	`Adrine`	`See, I'm just the opposite.`
`17:06.04`	`Adrine`	`I said "Aww, hell with my bags, let them do what they want"`
`17:06.12`	`ckknight`	`Shakespeare looks awesome, lol`
`17:06.13`	`Adrine`	`And then wrote an addon to give me a searchable/sortable list of my inventory :P`
`17:07.14`	`groll`	`ah hehe oke`
`17:07.41`	`groll`	`ah i think i know which one u mean :D`
`17:07.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`bags are only really good for spacial and visual representation.. if you remember names and colors often a text tree/list is better`
`17:08.06`	`Adrine`	`I've heard people sing praises for EngInventory`
`17:08.06`	`Adrine`	`http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=1882`
`17:08.10`	`Adrine`	`Might be what you're looking for`
`17:08.21`	`groll`	`eng inventory kicks ass :D`
`17:08.45`	`groll`	`but i need to know what spot a bagspos is called for usecontainer item macros :P`
`17:08.53`	`groll`	`and i dont think i can do that with that one`
`17:09.06`	`Adrine`	`Well, you could write a macro to get that, I think.`
`17:09.08`	`Adrine`	`Let's see...`
`17:09.08`	`groll`	`or can you use item names or such?`
`17:09.13`	`Adrine`	`No, you can't use names`
`17:09.17`	`groll`	`k`
`17:09.49`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphen (n=gryphon@67-42-95-27.tukw.qwest.net)`
`17:10.05`	`AnduinLothar`	`wardrobe has those functions`
`17:10.46`	`groll`	`how do you mean AnduinLothar?`
`17:11.35`	`Adrine`	`http://www.wowwiki.com/API_GetContainerItemLink`
`17:11.35`	`AnduinLothar`	`its util lua has functions that will allow you to get the bag and slot by name or even use by name or id`
`17:11.41`	`Adrine`	`Check the example on that page`
`17:11.45`	`Adrine`	`There's a function to use by name`
`17:11.56`	`Adrine`	`You could change it pretty easily to spit out the bag/slot index when a match is found`
`17:13.51`	`groll`	`k i'll try to fix it myself :D otherwise i come bag to haunt ya :D`
`17:13.51`	`End`	`hmm, my neck itches`
`17:13.52`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge malreth (n=malreth@cpe-72-177-82-90.austin.res.rr.com)`
`17:14.06`	`malreth`	`I am a genius!`
`17:14.06`	`End`	`is that so?`
`17:14.19`	`malreth`	`yes`
`17:14.25`	`End`	`I see.`
`17:15.10`	`malreth`	`i'm speaking generally. i've done nothing in particular.`
`17:15.43`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=KCummins@proxy-ce1.disney.com)`
`17:16.16`	`End`	`I see.`
`17:16.35`	`End`	`It might help if you do do something in particular then?`
`17:16.59`	`End`	`might as well be useful, and put your genius to work`
`17:17.07`	`End`	`that's a good start`
`17:18.35`	`malreth`	`Ah... That's the medicine that papa needs.`
`17:19.38`	`Adrine`	`Man, I'm looking forward to 1.10.`
`17:19.39`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower (n=chatzill@host-70-45-84-10.onelinkpr.net)`
`17:19.52`	`Adrine`	`Procedural UI element creation will be so welcome.`
`17:20.24`	`malreth`	`it'd be nice to drop the .xml files for a few of my little addons`
`17:20.36`	`Adrine`	`I'm just looking forward to simplying them, really.`
`17:20.42`	`End-wackyhat`	`it'd be nice to not allocate hundreds of textures by hand.`
`17:21.09`	`Adrine`	`I was creating a gradient bar chart last night, and while it wasn't too bad (virtual template, inherit on the 20 bar frames), it was...tedious`
`17:22.16`	`AnduinLothar`	`bah prolog use \= and haskel uses /= to mean not equal to...`
`17:22.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`just to be annoying`
`17:24.48`	`ckknight`	`lol`
`17:26.40`	`Tem`	`ok this is very odd... anyone familiar with java around?`
`17:26.52`	`ckknight`	`yea`
`17:27.05`	`Adrine`	`Familiar, yeah, but I have a restraining order against it.`
`17:27.08`	`Tem`	`I've got a java.io.File object that tells me it exists`
`17:27.15`	`Tem`	`file.exists() == true`
`17:27.32`	`ckknight`	`alright`
`17:27.47`	`Tem`	`but when I pass the file to the constructor of a java.util.Scanner object, it throws a FileNotFoundException`
`17:28.09`	`ckknight`	`does the file actually exist?`
`17:28.13`	`Tem`	`aye`
`17:28.23`	`ckknight`	`hrm`
`17:28.24`	`ckknight`	`wtf.`
`17:28.34`	`Tem`	`wtf indeed`
`17:28.42`	`ckknight`	`I don't know`
`17:28.51`	`Adrine`	`Is it on a path with spaces in it?`
`17:29.01`	`Tem`	`no`
`17:29.03`	`Adrine`	`ie, "Program Files", "Documents and Settings", etc`
`17:29.20`	`Tem`	`File f = new File("test.txt");`
`17:29.31`	`Tem`	`Scanner s = new Scanner(f);`
`17:29.31`	`ckknight`	`hrm`
`17:30.12`	`Tem`	`oh, and theres a System.out.println(file.exists()); line in there`
`17:31.35`	`Tem`	`(which dutifully spits out "true" right before I have the unhandled exception`
`17:31.36`	`Tem`	`)`
`17:32.04`	`Adrine`	`Just to clarify, the file does actually exist?`
`17:32.18`	`Adrine`	`(I'm wondering if file.exists() may be at fault, rather than the Scanner constructor)`
`17:33.37`	`Tem`	`well, I changed the path to someplace where that file doesn't exist`
`17:33.43`	`Tem`	`and file.exists returns false`
`17:38.44`	`Natasem`	`so whats with Blue breaking the Mana Conserve in CT_Raid? what was their reason for doing that?`
`17:38.54`	`End-wackyhat`	`what does .canRead() tell you?`
`17:39.01`	`Adrine`	`I'd guess it's just not intended behavior`
`17:39.14`	`ckknight`	`Natasem, no longer able to call SpellStopCasting()`
`17:39.15`	`Tem`	`canRead returns true`
`17:39.17`	`Adrine`	`Makes sense, really. Spell casts have to be explicitly triggered, so spell interrupts should be too.`
`17:39.20`	`End-wackyhat`	`huh`
`17:39.43`	`Natasem`	`so the esc key won't work either then?`
`17:39.49`	`Tem`	`it will`
`17:39.49`	`malreth\|away`	`you can still call SpellStopCasting()... it just requires a hardware event`
`17:40.11`	`ckknight`	`that's it`
`17:40.12`	`Natasem`	`why don't they just simulate the esc key being pressed`
`17:40.17`	`Adrine`	`Esc should work, sure`
`17:40.28`	`Tem`	`becuase that would be botting`
`17:40.31`	`Adrine`	`The difference is that you need a keypress to fire SpellStopCasting()`
`17:41.18`	`End-wackyhat`	`ok Tem, I figured it out. Java is just silly. that's why it does that. I can't say any more than that however.`
`17:41.24`	`End-wackyhat`	`;p`
`17:41.29`	`Tem`	`but...`
`17:41.38`	`Tem`	`how annoying`
`17:41.41`	`End-wackyhat`	`well yeah`
`17:43.04`	`End-wackyhat`	`honestly, I have no idea, but java can be kinda like that sometimes`
`17:44.56`	`Tem`	`ckknight: did your "that's it" mean anything?`
`17:47.51`	`ckknight`	`that it needs a hardware event`
`17:48.01`	`ckknight`	`the SpellStopCasting()`
`17:49.20`	`End-wackyhat`	`oh, I bet I know why this editor's find in files feature is so broken`
`17:49.41`	`End-wackyhat`	`the file probably has mixed line ending types`
`17:49.49`	`End-wackyhat`	`(or files actually)`
`17:50.39`	`End-wackyhat`	`well, I was right, it does have mixed line ending types, but it doesn't match the line numbers it gives...`
`17:51.51`	`malreth`	`what editor are you using?`
`17:52.21`	`malreth`	`(so i can avoid it)`
`17:52.40`	`End-wackyhat`	`I doubt you'd ever use it, this isn't for addon work :P`
`17:52.58`	`End-wackyhat`	`well, it's more of an ide I suppose. it's called avr studio`
`17:53.07`	`malreth`	`ah... okeh`
`17:53.33`	`End-wackyhat`	`its find in files feature is really messed up >_<`
`17:53.53`	`Adrine`	`It's all about the UltraEdit. :)`
`17:54.57`	`End-wackyhat`	`I really like kate, but that's a kde thing, and I spend most of my time on windows`
`18:01.53`	`malreth`	`maintenance days are so boring. i hardly know what to do at work!`
`18:06.17`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ktron (n=khamer@c-24-128-172-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)`
`18:07.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@204.90.50.252)`
`18:22.37`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-164-255.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`18:26.15`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kirov (n=Kirov@adsl-64-161-16-97.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`18:28.28`	`malreth`	`hi, kirov`
`18:28.37`	`Kirov`	`allo`
`18:35.00`	`JoshBorke`	`hi`
`18:35.07`	`Gryphen`	`heya`
`18:36.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ktron (n=khamer@c-24-128-172-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)`
`18:37.41`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=KCummins@proxy-ce1.disney.com)`
`18:42.07`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=kcummins@proxy-ce1.disney.com)`
`18:58.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Eraphine\|Lab (n=Eraphine@brenna.human.cornell.edu)`
`19:04.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tain (n=pmallett@ip68-109-28-84.ri.ri.cox.net)`
`19:05.42`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Hlaalu (i=moonwolf@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`19:06.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Hlaalu (n=PircBot@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`19:09.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ForgottenLords (n=Forgotte@059.216-123-195-0.interbaun.com)`
`19:13.50`	`Kirov`	`Anyone know what's up with the WoW site?`
`19:15.04`	`Ktron`	`I'm off, if anyone knows what's up with discordmods.com too, I'd be curious to here how long its expected to be down... I like trying out discordmods once in a while`
`19:15.23`	`Adrine`	`It's Tuesday.`
`19:15.30`	`Adrine`	`Things are always broken on Tuesday. :)`
`19:15.38`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`19:15.43`	`Adrine`	`Though it has been down longer than usual.`
`19:16.10`	`Tain`	`Gah how could D&D Online decide to make Tuesday their weekly patch day as well!`
`19:16.10`	`Tain`	`That's cruel!`
`19:16.23`	`Adrine`	`Tuesday is actually the day that MMO developers get together and go out for beer and wings.`
`19:16.38`	`Kirov`	`mmm... hooters`
`19:17.23`	`Tain`	`mmm wings`
`19:17.33`	`Adrine`	`Beer and wings actually sounds really good right now.`
`19:19.03`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ro (n=chatzill@pool-72-65-126-110.ptldme.east.verizon.net)`
`19:24.31`	`krka`	`hmm... Adrine and Kirov... new people or have i been away too much lately?`
`19:24.48`	`Adrine`	`I'm new :)`
`19:25.08`	`Adrine`	`Posted a Q on the interface forums yesterday, Cairenn told me to pop in here, and I liked it enough that I stayed. :)`
`19:25.15`	`Kirov`	`new to irc`
`19:25.17`	`Cairenn`	`:)`
`19:25.18`	`Cide-`	`Kirov is new in channel but not on the boards, I believe!`
`19:25.20`	`Kirov`	`long time forum troll`
`19:25.30`	`Tain`	`We're like heroin.`
`19:25.34`	`Tain`	`The first taste is free.`
`19:25.39`	`ckknight`	`I'm cold...`
`19:25.43`	`Adrine`	`Eh. It's IRC. :)`
`19:25.44`	`ckknight`	`lol`
`19:25.53`	`Adrine`	`It's just nice to have a connection for other addon developers!`
`19:26.05`	`Kirov`	`Opps, forgot. Let me break out that cap locks key again`
`19:26.18`	`Kirov`	`HELLO ALL IM NEW TO IRC111`
`19:26.25`	`Kirov`	`cough`
`19:26.25`	`Cairenn`	`lol`
`19:26.26`	`Tain`	`~lart Kirov`
`19:28.08`	`Kirov`	`Cide - you know "hide" on the resurrection meter drop down has been broken since like 1.41, right?`
`19:28.22`	`Cide`	`actually no :)`
`19:28.34`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`19:28.35`	`Cide`	`and we haven't had a single bug report on it as far as I know, either`
`19:28.44`	`Cide`	`(we've disabled them for quite some time though)`
`19:28.46`	`Adrine`	`My biggest complaint with the rez monitor is that you turn it on for one character, it's on for all.`
`19:28.51`	`Adrine`	`And I really don't need it on my rogue. :P`
`19:28.55`	`Kirov`	`lol`
`19:28.59`	`Cide`	`an option set should take care of that?`
`19:29.03`	`Cide`	`I think..!`
`19:29.17`	`Adrine`	`Hm. Tried that at one point, and it seemed to not work.`
`19:29.22`	`Adrine`	`But I probably used it wrong. :)`
`19:29.26`	`Cide`	`I'll have to look`
`19:29.28`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`19:29.52`	`Adrine`	`I run CTRaid pretty stock. DUF to stick all the status frames together and boom, happy me.`
`19:31.14`	`JoshBorke`	`eh res meter in CTRA?`
`19:31.42`	`Cide`	`yep?`
`19:32.06`	`JoshBorke`	`i likey :-) except i like to hide it when everyone is alive`
`19:32.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Synik (n=Seracht@CPE00159a838ed7-CM00159a0250a2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`19:32.14`	`Synik`	`hi`
`19:32.16`	`JoshBorke`	`hi`
`19:32.18`	`Cide`	`hi`
`19:32.18`	`Kirov`	`hello`
`19:32.18`	`Synik`	`does anyone here use Discord Unit Frames`
`19:32.23`	`Adrine`	`Aye`
`19:32.25`	`Gryphen`	`heya`
`19:32.28`	`Tain`	`Duffman says oh yeah.`
`19:32.42`	`Synik`	`I want to change my unit frames lol (using WoW default) but what can you recomend for a rogue`
`19:33.08`	`Adrine`	`I just set them up according to my tastes from scratch - didn't use a prebuilt setup.`
`19:33.12`	`Synik`	`oh`
`19:33.15`	`Tain`	`The world is your oyster. Or, lockbox as it were.`
`19:33.18`	`Adrine`	`Took a bit of time, but it's not really too difficult.`
`19:33.24`	`Synik`	`really?`
`19:33.28`	`Synik`	`like making it look pretty and all?`
`19:33.30`	`krka`	`good, then i am not crazy`
`19:33.35`	`Kirov`	`http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi2CfuqcUGE - for those of you who want to scar your mind with bad blue screen and david Hasselhoff`
`19:33.37`	`Adrine`	`http://wow.tachyonsix.com/newui3.jpg`
`19:33.39`	`Tain`	`That's a separate issue, krka. ;)`
`19:33.43`	`Adrine`	`That's sorta kinda my setup`
`19:33.54`	`krka`	`you make a valid point tain`
`19:33.55`	`Adrine`	`All done from scratch with discord, though the 3d models are a custom job`
`19:34.10`	`Synik`	`looks nice :)`
`19:34.37`	`Synik`	`ill go make mine :)`
`19:34.40`	`krka`	`too much info on screen for my taste`
`19:34.40`	`Adrine`	`The discord menu lets you tweak literally everything. Just play around with it. :)`
`19:34.43`	`Kirov`	`Has anyone released a unit model addon that doesn't require hacking away at the xml to configure yet?`
`19:34.47`	`Adrine`	`Yeah, I've toned it back a good bit since`
`19:34.58`	`Synik`	`heh`
`19:35.06`	`Adrine`	`Dropped the models in the middle and the rogue ticker, reverted to standard map, shrunk the action bars`
`19:35.18`	`Tain`	`I use WatchDog. No graphics whatsoever, just the info I need.`
`19:36.42`	`Synik`	`where do you combo buttons show adriane`
`19:36.43`	`Kirov`	`I love the idea of 3d models for characters, but in practice I've never been able to get used to them.`
`19:36.43`	`Synik`	`adrine`
`19:37.02`	`Adrine`	`They show up under the right side of my portrait there`
`19:37.14`	`Kirov`	`they either a) take up more space then I want them to or b) are something else moving on my screen I don't need to pay attention to.`
`19:39.45`	`Adrine`	`Eh, I guess I've gotten used to 'em`
`19:39.51`	`Adrine`	`But I also have a lot of screen real estate to play with.`
`19:40.02`	`Adrine`	`1920x1200 resolution tends to give you a lot of space to put stuff in.`
`19:40.09`	`Kirov`	`yeah, and you're a rogue`
`19:40.22`	`Synik`	`adrine, also your icons look different`
`19:40.25`	`Adrine`	`Yeah. Lots and lots of keyboard shortcuts :D`
`19:40.26`	`Synik`	`like your portrait osrry`
`19:40.35`	`Synik`	`how do i get my portrait to look like that :)`
`19:41.00`	`Adrine`	`I did it by just putting together an XML file that created the appropriate portraits, and then positioned them with DUF`
`19:41.02`	`Adrine`	`However --`
`19:41.10`	`Tain`	`No matter how much screen space I have I need to have things clear from the middle of my screen. Everything I use is around the edges.`
`19:41.15`	`Adrine`	`Zuxana's Model Citizen should do the same thing for you`
`19:41.17`	`Kirov`	`Playing a warrior or rogue you can get away with covering your entire screen with stuff.`
`19:41.25`	`Adrine`	`Eh. I have a priest as well.`
`19:41.38`	`Adrine`	`I can use the same setup with just minor tweaks`
`19:41.45`	`Kirov`	`Priest you're spend most of the time looking at health bars.`
`19:41.47`	`Tain`	`The only thing I like in the middle of my screen as a Rogue is PocketHelper. Ooh I love that.`
`19:41.59`	`Kirov`	`I play a hunter and spend a lot of my time with my UI off.`
`19:42.08`	`Adrine`	`Heh.`
`19:42.11`	`Adrine`	`I'm not sure what that says :P`
`19:42.32`	`Kirov`	`hehe`
`19:42.40`	`Tain`	`Ah it's easy to do, well except for unit frames, if you use and know all of your keyboard shortcuts.`
`19:42.44`	`Crispix_`	`Awwgh. cries`
`19:42.51`	`Tain`	`But I wouldn't want to do without seeing health for me and my target.`
`19:42.55`	`Crispix_`	`I keep sweating bullets nad my cold won't die :(`
`19:44.06`	`Adrine`	`I need to make my ZeldaUI work again and actually clean it up :P`
`19:44.09`	`Adrine`	`Nice, simple UI.`
`19:44.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Hlaalu (n=PircBot@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`19:44.28`	`Crispix_`	`Zelda UI?`
`19:44.34`	`Adrine`	`Lemme find a shot`
`19:44.38`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge elema (n=ele_ma@p548AE4AF.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`19:44.41`	`Adrine`	`Was really my first foray into UI modding`
`19:44.44`	`Adrine`	`Here it is`
`19:44.45`	`Adrine`	`http://wow.tachyonsix.com/zeldaui2.jpg`
`19:44.45`	`Kirov`	`blink`
`19:44.56`	`Adrine`	`I could do a lot better now, I think. :)`
`19:45.11`	`Crispix_`	`Waits for browser to load`
`19:45.13`	`Kirov`	`must ... resist ... fanboy tendancies ...`
`19:45.18`	`ckknight`	`lol.`
`19:45.26`	`Kirov`	`glee!`
`19:45.28`	`Crispix_`	`Adrine, I'll be happy to assist you with the recreation.. if I can do antyhing`
`19:45.31`	`ckknight`	`although, kudos`
`19:45.56`	`Adrine`	`It even does the sounds and all that when you gain hearts and stuff. >_>`
`19:46.02`	`JoshBorke`	`lol`
`19:46.07`	`Adrine`	`Yes, I'm a nerd. Stop looking at me like that.`
`19:46.16`	`Kirov`	`what does the bomb count?`
`19:46.22`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (n=the_real@62.61.134.59.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk)`
`19:46.30`	`JoshBorke`	`Adrine: that is awesome`
`19:46.32`	`Adrine`	`I had it literally counting my engineering bombs :P`
`19:46.36`	`Kirov`	`hehe`
`19:46.46`	`elema`	`hy`
`19:46.47`	`Adrine`	`But I think I'd probably make it be assignable to whatever item`
`19:46.53`	`JoshBorke`	`hi`
`19:46.58`	`Kirov`	`And is that number counting your copper?`
`19:47.03`	`Gryphen`	`heya`
`19:47.03`	`Kirov`	`ie: you have 6 g?`
`19:47.03`	`Adrine`	`Yeah`
`19:47.07`	`Adrine`	`Err`
`19:47.08`	`Adrine`	`Silver`
`19:47.14`	`Kirov`	`ah, ok`
`19:47.19`	`Adrine`	`Also, the # of hearts increases with level`
`19:47.28`	`Kirov`	`hehe`
`19:47.34`	`ckknight`	`lol`
`19:47.36`	`Adrine`	`So as you level up, you get more hearts, 3 at level 1, 20 at level 60. :D`
`19:47.44`	`Adrine`	`Lots of fun to be had with it.`
`19:47.44`	`elema`	`why does this not work (my editor tells, me, that it won't work):`
`19:47.48`	`elema`	`<Button name="Elema's_Debug_Framerate_Button">`
`19:47.48`	`elema`	`<Anchors>`
`19:47.48`	`elema`	`<Anchor point="TOPLEFT">`
`19:47.48`	`elema`	`<Offset>`
`19:47.48`	`elema`	`<AbsDimension x="15" y="-6"/>`
`19:47.48`	`elema`	`</Offset>`
`19:47.50`	`elema`	`</Anchor>`
`19:47.52`	`elema`	`</Anchors>`
`19:47.54`	`elema`	`<Layers>`
`19:47.56`	`elema`	`<Layer level="OVERLAY">`
`19:47.58`	`elema`	`<FontString name="Elema's_Debug_Framerate" inherits="Elema's_Debug_Font" text="fps: 103.5">`
`19:47.59`	`ckknight`	`thanks for the spam`
`19:48.00`	`elema`	`<Anchors>`
`19:48.01`	`Crispix_`	`o_O`
`19:48.02`	`elema`	`<Anchor point="CENTER">`
`19:48.04`	`elema`	`<Offset>`
`19:48.04`	`ckknight`	`use pastebin next time`
`19:48.06`	`elema`	`<AbsDimension x="0" y="0"/>`
`19:48.08`	`elema`	`</Offset>`
`19:48.10`	`elema`	`</Anchor>`
`19:48.12`	`elema`	`</Anchors>`
`19:48.14`	`elema`	`</FontString>`
`19:48.15`	`JoshBorke`	`wow.pastebin.com :-(`
`19:48.16`	`elema`	`</Layer>`
`19:48.18`	`elema`	`</Layers>`
`19:48.18`	`Crispix_`	`!kick elema`
`19:48.20`	`Kirov`	`ieeeee!`
`19:48.20`	`elema`	`<Scripts>`
`19:48.22`	`elema`	`<OnEnter>`
`19:48.24`	`elema`	`Elema's_Debug_Framerate_OnEnter();`
`19:48.26`	`elema`	`</OnEnter>`
`19:48.28`	`elema`	`</Scripts>`
`19:48.29`	`Crispix_`	`STOP :\|`
`19:48.30`	`elema`	`</Button>`
`19:48.30`	`AnduinLothar`	`omg...`
`19:48.32`	`elema`	`ok, I'm sometimes toooooo lazy`
`19:48.33`	`Adrine`	`Mein IM beep alerts!`
`19:48.34`	`elema`	`;)`
`19:48.34`	`Tain`	`Elema please use pastebin for things like that. NO one can read it in irc anyway.`
`19:48.35`	`Crispix_`	`Cairenn\|afk`
`19:48.36`	`elema`	`sorry`
`19:48.44`	`Adrine`	`Needs more indenting. >_>`
`19:48.52`	`ckknight`	`for 3 lines or so, it's okay`
`19:48.54`	`Crispix_`	`Cairenn hopes her machine still beeps when her name is said..`
`19:48.54`	`AnduinLothar`	`tabs ftw`
`19:48.58`	`ckknight`	`but more than that is just unnecessary`
`19:49.11`	`Kirov`	`I see what's wrong with that code, it's filled with random comments like "thanks for the spam"!`
`19:49.23`	`Adrine`	`Heheh`
`19:49.24`	`Tain`	`That throws it all off, Kirov!`
`19:49.29`	`Adrine`	`Not valid XML, it'd seem`
`19:49.51`	`Synik`	`adrine another question`
`19:49.53`	`elema`	`(http://wow.pastebin.com/602208)`
`19:50.02`	`Synik`	`your bars (health/energy) they are not like mine`
`19:50.05`	`Synik`	`they are like more boxy, which I like`
`19:50.11`	`Adrine`	`I think it's the texture I used`
`19:50.18`	`Adrine`	`Erm...trying to remember where it is`
`19:50.30`	`Crispix_`	`man.. I've been in cue for Arathi for 6 minutes... :\|`
`19:50.31`	`Adrine`	`I think on the "Self" section, select the "Health bar" thing, then there will be two tabs`
`19:50.39`	`Synik`	`ya`
`19:50.42`	`Adrine`	`Go into the second tab and there should be a box somewhere for a texture`
`19:50.44`	`Synik`	`base - special`
`19:50.49`	`Adrine`	`type "bg" without quotes and hit enter`
`19:50.49`	`Synik`	`yup`
`19:50.50`	`Synik`	`custom texture`
`19:50.54`	`Synik`	`AH`
`19:50.56`	`Synik`	`Thank you`
`19:50.57`	`Adrine`	`the "bg" texture ships with Discord`
`19:51.07`	`Adrine`	`You can add your own, as well, but I happen to like that one`
`19:51.14`	`Cairenn\|afk`	`elema: http://wow.pastebin.com/`
`19:51.23`	`Cairenn\|afk`	`for future reference`
`19:51.32`	`elema`	`yeah, did it(http://wow.pastebin.com/602208)`
`19:51.36`	`Kirov`	`he already reposted using it`
`19:51.42`	`Adrine`	`Is that right under the <Ui> element?`
`19:51.46`	`elema`	`but, did it before, but was this time too lazy`
`19:51.56`	`elema`	`no`
`19:52.07`	`Adrine`	`The button itself just doesn't show up?`
`19:52.10`	`Kirov`	`frames / functions have apostrophes?`
`19:52.13`	`elema`	`yep`
`19:52.21`	`Synik`	`and how do i Center it :)`
`19:52.21`	`Adrine`	`That's possibly it, Kirov`
`19:52.23`	`Kirov`	`oy, I'm so abusing that now`
`19:52.47`	`Adrine`	`Synik: I think there's an option in there to center justify the text`
`19:52.51`	`Adrine`	`But I can't remember where it is`
`19:53.06`	`Kirov`	`justifyh="center"`
`19:53.08`	`Kirov`	`I think`
`19:53.15`	`Adrine`	`Well, in Discord`
`19:53.18`	`Adrine`	`Not in the XML :)`
`19:53.20`	`elema`	`if I comment out that button, and replace it with only a fontstring, then it works`
`19:53.57`	`Kirov`	`hmm`
`19:54.04`	`Synik`	`what are the background textures available?`
`19:54.08`	`Synik`	`for portrait`
`19:54.11`	`Synik`	`I want to get mine pretty :)`
`19:54.15`	`Adrine`	`You don't have a <Size> set for the button - maybe that's it?`
`19:54.31`	`Adrine`	`I don't remember, Synik - take a look in the Discord Unit Frames folder`
`19:54.38`	`Adrine`	`I think there's a folder called CustomTextures in there`
`19:54.39`	`elema`	`ahhh`
`19:54.42`	`Adrine`	`Which contains your possible choices`
`19:54.51`	`Synik`	`sorry for asking so many questions`
`19:54.56`	`Adrine`	`No worries. :)`
`19:55.18`	`JoshBorke`	`elema: for XML development, XMLSpy home edition is free and provides XML validation`
`19:55.33`	`Synik`	`again how did you do your portrait :)`
`19:55.41`	`Synik`	`or how can I do it`
`19:55.42`	`Synik`	`easily`
`19:55.54`	`Adrine`	`Easily? I dunno. I wrote a custom XML file to create the appropriate frames :)`
`19:55.55`	`Adrine`	`However...`
`19:56.28`	`Adrine`	`Try this: http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=1900`
`19:56.35`	`Adrine`	`I haven't tried it myself, so I can't say that it works`
`19:56.43`	`Adrine`	`But it seems like it should let you do what you want easily.`
`19:58.06`	`Synik`	`cool`
`19:58.06`	`Synik`	`thanks`
`19:58.33`	`Synik`	`hope these work in 1.10`
`19:58.37`	`Kirov`	`should`
`19:58.43`	`Kirov`	`No reason they shouldn't`
`19:58.46`	`Adrine`	`Can't think of any reason why they wouldn't`
`19:59.06`	`Maldivia`	`elema: hmm, don't you have problems with how you've named your frames and methods (using ' )`
`19:59.14`	`Kirov`	`Only thing breaking in 1.10 is every mod that uses tooltips ... ...`
`19:59.24`	`Synik`	`oh`
`19:59.37`	`Adrine`	`Good thing there aren't many of those, Kirov!`
`19:59.43`	`Maldivia`	`yeah, only around 50% or so :)`
`19:59.57`	`Kirov`	`Which reminds me, slouken posted that he figured out what the bug was, and that it was fixed ... but there were two bugs talked about in that tooltip thread.`
`20:00.18`	`Maldivia`	`Kirov: but it's not every mod... only the mods that parse hidden tooltips, without calling SetOwner`
`20:00.19`	`AnduinLothar`	`he fixed the name size limit`
`20:00.23`	`Synik`	`and i dont know how to use this model citizen thing lol`
`20:00.26`	`AnduinLothar`	`old bug`
`20:00.36`	`Kirov`	`Maldivia - I know, just trying to cause a panic`
`20:01.01`	`Adrine`	`But, I guess I have plenty of time to fix it now.`
`20:01.01`	`Kirov`	`So do I`
`20:01.11`	`Kirov`	`So do most people who parse tooltips`
`20:01.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Tem@ip70-177-40-169.br.br.cox.net)`
`20:01.16`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Iriel (n=daniel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)`
`20:01.16`	`Synik`	`ah cool :)`
`20:01.17`	`Kirov`	`I know Tem does.`
`20:01.21`	`Synik`	`adrine I didn't mena that`
`20:01.22`	`Kirov`	`heh`
`20:01.23`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@ip70-177-40-169.br.br.cox.net)`
`20:01.27`	`Maldivia`	`Adrine: just add: tooltip:SetOwner(UIParent, "ANCHOR_NONE") before, and tooltip:Hide() after`
`20:01.30`	`Synik`	`I meant the shoulder view you have`
`20:01.31`	`Synik`	`lol`
`20:01.39`	`Adrine`	`Maldivia: Thanks!`
`20:01.45`	`Adrine`	`copies for later use`
`20:01.59`	`AnduinLothar`	`oh btw tooltip:SetOwner(UIParent, "ANCHOR_NONE") doesn't always seem to work onload..`
`20:02.06`	`Adrine`	`I'm not familiar with ModelCitizen, so I couldn't tell you, Synik. Sorry :/`
`20:02.10`	`Kirov`	`Yes it does`
`20:02.21`	`Maldivia`	`AnduinLothar: yeah, I was refering to before SetHyperlink etc calls - ie, everytime`
`20:02.22`	`AnduinLothar`	`it tends to break when i zone into instances for some odd reason..`
`20:02.26`	`Kirov`	`You just need to make sure the tooltip is in the xml before the onload is called`
`20:02.37`	`Kirov`	`hmm...`
`20:02.48`	`Adrine`	`Speaking of...`
`20:02.56`	`Iriel`	`Does it work when UIParent is hidden?`
`20:03.03`	`Adrine`	`Are OnLoad handlers called as the XML is parsed, or after the entire XML file is parsed?`
`20:03.03`	`Iriel`	`(i.e. Alt-Z?)`
`20:03.12`	`Synik`	`mnever mind :)`
`20:03.14`	`Synik`	`got it to wokr`
`20:03.15`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: if the tooltip is parented to UIParent, then it breaks`
`20:03.15`	`Iriel`	`Adrine : There's a wiki document for that`
`20:03.27`	`Crispix_`	`ooooh.. next level I get Track Demons... how useless :\|`
`20:03.28`	`Kirov`	`Synik - I used it a while back. Read the readme.txt, fairly informative.`
`20:03.33`	`Iriel`	`http://www.wowwiki.com/UI_Code_Load_Order`
`20:03.42`	`Adrine`	`Wonderful, Iriel, thanks.`
`20:04.08`	`Iriel`	`The simple answer is it's called for each element as the element is completed`
`20:04.16`	`AnduinLothar`	`"Cannot justify constraints in explicitly typed binding`
`20:04.18`	`Iriel`	`The fiddliness comes when there are nested and virtual elements`
`20:04.27`	`Adrine`	`Heh. Fun.`
`20:04.43`	`AnduinLothar`	`^^ worst haskell error ever`
`20:05.12`	`Maldivia`	`... and that error means?`
`20:05.13`	`End-wackyhat`	`Crispix, not when you are trying to get your bow`
`20:05.18`	`AnduinLothar`	`exactly..`
`20:05.20`	`Crispix_`	`what bow?`
`20:05.23`	`Crispix_`	`o_O`
`20:05.25`	`End-wackyhat`	`the epic one`
`20:05.37`	`End-wackyhat`	`you need to kill 4 demons I think`
`20:05.40`	`Crispix_`	`... the epic one.. I love vague things :\|`
`20:05.53`	`Iriel`	`Track demons is handy when you're hunting for felcloth too`
`20:06.14`	`Iriel`	`Crispix_ : There's only one hunter class specific quest which yields an epic bow`
`20:06.22`	`Iriel`	`Crispix_ : So that's not really vague at all`
`20:06.51`	`Maldivia`	`hmm... I have a hunter... level 7... and I know which bow he's refering to :)`
`20:07.22`	`Iriel`	`Ironically I have no idea what the actual bow is called, or its stats (And i'm an L60 hunter)`
`20:07.36`	`Iriel`	`But I know which one it is 8-)`
`20:07.38`	`End-wackyhat`	`the name is really annoying`
`20:08.38`	`End-wackyhat`	`Rhok'delar`
`20:08.45`	`End-wackyhat`	`I had to check thottbot, since I never remember how to spell it`
`20:09.35`	`Synik`	`Adrine final question :)`
`20:09.40`	`Synik`	`is there a good combo point texture out there`
`20:09.55`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: Rhok'delar`
`20:11.16`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: As for stats: 89 - 166 @ 2.90 (44.0 dps), +1% crit, +17 RAP -- Ok, had to look that up :)`
`20:11.39`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Hm, I guess I should try and get it someday`
`20:11.53`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : though I hate the idea of using the same bow everyone else does`
`20:11.57`	`End-wackyhat`	`Iriel, are you in an MC/Onyxia guild?`
`20:12.28`	`Iriel`	`End-wackyhat : No, we've never tried`
`20:12.43`	`Maldivia`	`You can always buy the leaf from an MC guild`
`20:12.56`	`End`	`you could`
`20:13.01`	`Maldivia`	`as in, wait out side, get a summon and loot it from domo's chest`
`20:13.34`	`End`	`you need the sinew too, which is most commonly gotten off of onyxia (but apparently you can get it off of emberstrife too??)`
`20:13.52`	`Maldivia`	`the sinew drops from the dragonkin in winterspring`
`20:14.07`	`Maldivia`	`just like the eye of shadow drops from non-boss mobs`
`20:14.18`	`End`	`there is two pieces of sinew`
`20:14.27`	`End`	`blue and black`
`20:14.50`	`Maldivia`	`yeah, but one of them is for the quiver, right?`
`20:14.52`	`End`	`black is bop, blue is not`
`20:15.12`	`End`	`blue is for quiver`
`20:15.23`	`Tain`	`It's unskinny bop bop bop.`
`20:16.00`	`End`	`it looks like you use blue for quiver, and black for the actual bow`
`20:16.04`	`Synik`	`guys for discord unit frames - is there a good texture for combo points?`
`20:16.36`	`Maldivia`	`End: hmm, ok - the black only drops from onyxia, afaik`
`20:17.04`	`End`	`I've heard of it dropping off of other creatures, but I've only seen it drop off of onyxia`
`20:17.33`	`End`	`well`
`20:17.34`	`Maldivia`	`it's the blue that drops from the blue dragonkin in winterspring...`
`20:17.41`	`End`	`yes`
`20:17.53`	`Maldivia`	`according to thott and allaphazam, black is Onyxia only`
`20:17.55`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zeeg (n=wguru@63.147.183.47)`
`20:18.10`	`End`	`there are other -black- dragons though. -however-, I'm inclined to agree it'd only drop off of onyxia`
`20:18.14`	`End`	`since`
`20:18.31`	`End`	`I don't trust wherever I heard it dropping elsewhere`
`20:18.55`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, which black dragons should it drop from... where do you find that high level black dragonkin ?`
`20:19.25`	`Maldivia`	`and don't say Burning Steppes, those are only around level 50 :)`
`20:19.45`	`End`	`I'm not sure, I've heard people say emberstrife drops it, but I have no proof :P`
`20:19.57`	`End`	`he's..level 61 or 62 I think`
`20:20.53`	`End`	`it'd make sense that nefarian would drop it only because he is a black dragon, but apparently he doesn't drop it.`
`20:20.54`	`Synik`	`adrine you here?`
`20:21.00`	`Maldivia`	`I've never seen him drop anything..`
`20:21.10`	`End`	`I've never killed him`
`20:21.13`	`Maldivia`	`neither Nef nor Emberstrife`
`20:21.15`	`End`	`yeah`
`20:21.25`	`End`	`let's just go with onyxia only dropping it then`
`20:21.27`	`Maldivia`	`well, never seen NEf drop the sinew, never seen Emberstrife drop anything`
`20:22.09`	`End`	`(I was really just covering my ass, when I said other things might drop it, since I wasn't sure)`
`20:22.37`	`Adrine`	`Synik: Sorry, was grabbing lunch.`
`20:22.40`	`Adrine`	`I don't remember which one I used`
`20:22.49`	`Adrine`	`And I'm at work, so I can't check`
`20:23.16`	`Adrine`	`and IIRC, the black sinew only drops from Onyxia.`
`20:23.51`	`Maldivia`	`Emberstrife is only used for the UBRS key, afaik`
`20:24.21`	`End`	`Onyxia key, horde side`
`20:24.36`	`End`	`I didn't know about UBRS key though, since I never bothered doing that one`
`20:25.17`	`Maldivia`	`You have to mind control him, when he's about to die, for the UBRS key`
`20:25.46`	`End`	`ah`
`20:27.24`	`Maldivia`	`something in the line of gather the seal and the 3 gems, gather them, go to emberstrife, almost kill him, mind control him (with a specific item), and have him breathe on the seal, to activate it`
`20:28.15`	`End`	`yeah, I was just reading about it`
`20:28.39`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge qwxyr (i=qw@201.80-202-198.nextgentel.com)`
`20:28.52`	`Adrine`	`Farming LBRS for gems is just painful.`
`20:29.00`	`Maldivia`	`not really...`
`20:29.23`	`Adrine`	`Well, that probably has something to do with the fact that I just utterly detest LBRS :)`
`20:29.28`	`Maldivia`	`when I did the first rund for the gems, all 3 dropped in one run :)`
`20:29.43`	`Adrine`	`Wow. Nice.`
`20:29.52`	`Maldivia`	`and I think I've done LBRS 2 or 3 times since :)`
`20:29.52`	`zeeg`	`babahahahah`
`20:29.54`	`zeeg`	`http://www.wowguru.com/forums/showthread.php?p=65891#post65891`
`20:29.55`	`zeeg`	`i win`
`20:31.05`	`Maldivia`	`ehh... ok ?`
`20:31.58`	`Crispix_`	`Could anyone tell me where Theramore is? o_O`
`20:32.27`	`Adrine`	`It's in Duskwallow Marsh`
`20:32.31`	`Adrine`	`Alliance or Horde?`
`20:32.40`	`Adrine`	`If Alliance, take the leftmost boat from Menethil`
`20:32.47`	`End`	`why would Horde care? o_O`
`20:32.53`	`Adrine`	`Well, how to get there`
`20:33.03`	`End`	`wait, I do remember a quest where I had to get a lockbox from beneath the docks or something`
`20:33.07`	`Crispix_`	`Thankee adrine`
`20:33.09`	`Crispix_`	`I'm alliace :)`
`20:33.18`	`End`	`so I guess horde might care`
`20:33.34`	`Adrine`	`Well, Thrall cares.`
`20:33.48`	`End`	`Hehe.`
`20:33.59`	`zeeg`	`Maldivia, spammers know they wont have a site to spam if i have to delete their posts :P`
`20:34.19`	`End`	`so you stealth-editted it?`
`20:34.26`	`zeeg`	`no that wasnt me`
`20:34.28`	`zeeg`	`they did it themselves`
`20:34.38`	`Crispix_`	`So take the gryph to menethil, then take the left most boat.... nods got it... omw there now.. I need to turn a quest...`
`20:34.57`	`End`	`I see.`
`20:41.42`	`Crispix_`	`Ermm Adrine.. the boat to theramore?`
`20:41.42`	`Crispix_`	`or another one?`
`20:41.42`	`Adrine`	`Yup, that's the one.`
`20:41.44`	`Crispix_`	`uuhh.....`
`20:41.44`	`Crispix_`	`Where is thereamore?`
`20:41.45`	`Crispix_`	`this boat took me to the Mists edge o_O`
`20:41.45`	`Adrine`	`Once you're done zoning, you're in it :)`
`20:41.45`	`Adrine`	`That's the right boat`
`20:41.45`	`Adrine`	`Go back to Menethil`
`20:41.45`	`Adrine`	`You want the left boat`
`20:41.45`	`Crispix_`	`k.. goto Menethil.. then head to?`
`20:41.45`	`Adrine`	`There are two "branches" to the dock at Menethil - left and right. Left goes to Theramore, right goes to Darkshore.`
`20:42.03`	`Crispix_`	`ok.. I'll look for the one that heads to theramore`
`20:47.52`	`zeeg`	`http://davidcramer.net/gallery.php?do=cat&cid=16`
`20:47.53`	`zeeg`	`:D`
`20:49.23`	`Crispix_`	`hrm... this Green Squall Power Aid isn't that bad...`
`20:49.40`	`Adrine`	`It's really sad that my first thought was "What buff does that give?"`
`20:58.07`	`krka`	`heh`
`21:05.28`	`Crispix_`	`20532 xp until 32 -_-;`
`21:07.00`	`Crispix_`	`I can't believe this....`
`21:07.14`	`Crispix_`	`I put 6 spiders silk up on the AH and theres not even a single bid on it :\|`
`21:07.35`	`Adrine`	`Well, the servers were down for a part of the day.`
`21:07.46`	`Tem`	`Iriel: do you have a few minutes? I'm stumped`
`21:07.56`	`Crispix_`	`What's Nat Pagle's Guide to Extreme Anglin' used for ??? o_O`
`21:08.07`	`Tem`	`Crispix_: nothing, it's vendor trash`
`21:08.44`	`Tem`	`Crispix_: anything that's grey (with the exception of the Darkmoon Faire ticket turn-in items) is vendor trash`
`21:09.44`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Tem: Are you kidding him about Nat Pagle's book?`
`21:09.48`	`Tem`	`no?`
`21:10.03`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Tem: You're not going to tell him what happens if you take 50 of those to the Dark Forge in BRD?`
`21:10.05`	`Tem`	`isn't that the grey book that you get in Dire Maul from the dusty tomes?`
`21:10.16`	`Tem`	`Qzot\|atwork: shhh!`
`21:10.31`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`hehe`
`21:11.04`	`Tem`	`Qzot\|atwork: would you happen to be a java person too?`
`21:11.19`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Yes. Might be rusty, tho.`
`21:11.19`	`JoshBorke`	`ew, java`
`21:11.32`	`Tem`	`I'm stumped here`
`21:11.32`	`Adrine`	`You can take it into the forge behind Golemagg and turn it into a random epic, can't you?`
`21:11.59`	`Tem`	`yeah, the big Mercedes symbol`
`21:12.00`	`JoshBorke`	`Adrine: yep, exactly!`
`21:12.10`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`What's your question, Tem.`
`21:12.23`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I'm afraid I'm on a bit of a tight schedule, so spit it out!`
`21:12.26`	`Adrine`	`We don't even charge DKP for those. Free epix!`
`21:12.41`	`Tem`	`Qzot\|atwork: I've got a File object that returns true for both the exists and canRead methods`
`21:14.16`	`Tem`	`Qzot\|atwork: but when I pass it to a Scanner object it throws a FileNotFoundException`
`21:14.18`	`Tem`	`that's java.io.File and java.until.Scanner btw`
`21:14.18`	`JoshBorke`	`wb Cairenn`
`21:14.18`	`Cairenn`	`thanks`
`21:14.55`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`That's more an API question, than a Java question. Checking the API docs now.`
`21:15.02`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`What's the filename, btw?`
`21:15.26`	`Tem`	`test.txt`
`21:15.39`	`Tem`	`I'm sure I'`
`21:15.47`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Hmm. What version of Java?`
`21:15.48`	`Tem`	`stupid ' key so close to enter`
`21:16.16`	`Tem`	`I'm sure I'm just doing something stupid`
`21:16.17`	`Tem`	`1.5`
`21:17.04`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I assume you meant java.util`
`21:17.05`	`Adrine`	`Maybe something with the working directory?`
`21:17.05`	`Adrine`	`ie, it succeeds for some reason but the Scanner constructor is working with a different working directory?`
`21:18.17`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Try foo = new FileReader(file)`
`21:18.23`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`See if that also fails.`
`21:18.25`	`Tem`	`oh yeah lol`
`21:18.49`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`That should at least split the problem in half.`
`21:19.24`	`Maldivia`	`different working directory shouldn't be a problem, if you're new Scanner(file) <-- where file is the File object, you checked canRead() on`
`21:19.53`	`Tem`	`Qzot\|atwork: yeah it also fails`
`21:21.09`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`You don't happen to have test.txt as a directory in your system, do you?`
`21:21.59`	`Maldivia`	`Tem: pastebin the code?`
`21:22.08`	`Tem`	`Qzot\|atwork: nope`
`21:22.45`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Do file.getAbsoluteFile().toString() and file.getCanonicalFile().toString() look reasonable?`
`21:22.49`	`Tem`	`http://wow.pastebin.com/602391`
`21:23.54`	`Tem`	`Absolute file looks fine`
`21:24.04`	`Tem`	`CanonicalFile throws an IOException`
`21:24.20`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Egad.`
`21:24.47`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`What system are you running on? And what's the java -v?`
`21:25.18`	`Maldivia`	`Tem, hmm, running it from within a jar file ?`
`21:25.29`	`Tem`	`I'm running it in Eclipse`
`21:25.32`	`Tem`	`so, no`
`21:25.42`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Windows, or Linux?`
`21:25.45`	`Tem`	`Windows`
`21:26.29`	`Maldivia`	`running the exact same code here works fine`
`21:26.54`	`krka`	`might want to check new File(".").getAbsolutePath()`
`21:27.14`	`Maldivia`	`ohh... do you have the test.txt file open in an editot ?`
`21:27.28`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Or try to sidestep: new Scanner(new FileReader("text.txt"))`
`21:27.48`	`krka`	`no that wouldn't really help i think`
`21:28.06`	`krka`	`i guess the likely thing is that windows has the file locked`
`21:28.23`	`Maldivia`	`yeah, a sharing violation is my best bet...`
`21:28.36`	`Tem`	`I don't`
`21:28.42`	`Maldivia`	`depending on how agressive the Scanner is when it tries to open the file`
`21:28.50`	`Tem`	`but I do have a messy editor that might be holding it 'open'`
`21:29.00`	`Tem`	`ok no`
`21:29.15`	`Tem`	`I just put the whole mess on a unix box and got the same result`
`21:29.29`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Copy test.txt to test2.txt, and switch names in your source.`
`21:29.38`	`krka`	`interesting...`
`21:30.03`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`same as what, Tem?`
`21:30.14`	`Tem`	`same as on my windows box`
`21:30.16`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`same as before?`
`21:30.30`	`Tem`	`getCanonicalFile throws an IOException`
`21:30.35`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Is test.txt part of your eclipse project?`
`21:30.47`	`Tem`	`no`
`21:30.48`	`krka`	`more specific exception msg plz?`
`21:31.00`	`Tem`	`that's it krka`
`21:31.08`	`krka`	`oh running from eclipse?`
`21:31.10`	`Tem`	`the function threw that exception`
`21:31.45`	`krka`	`print out the current directory`
`21:31.48`	`Maldivia`	`what's the message of the exception`
`21:31.50`	`krka`	`and see if the file is there`
`21:31.59`	`Tem`	`but on the unix box, I did not use eclipse`
`21:32.01`	`krka`	`new File(".").getAbsolutePath()`
`21:32.06`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`IOException takes a string argument, or can. None passed?`
`21:32.21`	`Tem`	`getAbsolutePath shows the correct path for the file`
`21:32.56`	`Maldivia`	`ex.printStackTrace(); the exception`
`21:33.51`	`krka`	`oh right, i still have java 1.4, can't test it :P`
`21:34.58`	`krka`	`or just put "throws Exception" after all your methods :)`
`21:35.10`	`Tem`	`the message from the IOException is the file path`
`21:35.30`	`Tem`	`the cause is also the file path`
`21:35.38`	`[MoonWolf]`	`look people my bot can make semi sensible responses to you`
`21:35.39`	`[MoonWolf]`	`http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6258/naamloos0ya.jpg`
`21:36.26`	`Tem`	`rofl`
`21:36.30`	`Tem`	`I just found the problem`
`21:36.38`	`Tem`	`I'm retarded`
`21:36.41`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Woot!`
`21:36.45`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`And it is...?`
`21:36.49`	`Adrine`	`I should write a chatbot for WoW, and run it while I'm playing my lock`
`21:36.57`	`Tem`	`I didn't have a try block`
`21:37.04`	`Adrine`	`So that people who ask for summons can hold a conversation with a script while I go merrily about my business. :)`
`21:37.13`	`krka`	`wtf is that [MoonWolf]`
`21:37.17`	`Tem`	`so it was giving me shit because the method I was calling /could/ throw the exception`
`21:37.30`	`JoshBorke`	`[MoonWolf]: nice :-)`
`21:37.35`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`There was a greeter bots stationed at the AH doors on my server for a day or so.`
`21:37.46`	`Adrine`	`Awesome.`
`21:37.46`	`krka`	`... so it didn't even compile tem?`
`21:37.47`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I think it was responding to mouseover.`
`21:37.48`	`Maldivia`	`Tem, and you choose to ignore the warning Eclipse gives you every time you try to run it ? :)`
`21:37.57`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`-.-`
`21:38.05`	`Tem`	`it was giving me: unhandled exception`
`21:38.09`	`[MoonWolf]`	`that is what you get when you feed two days of irc chatting in some random geeky channel in a markov chain bot and then have it generate replies to what people have said.`
`21:38.31`	`JoshBorke`	`[MoonWolf]: aw, you didn't write it yourself?`
`21:38.32`	`krka`	`usually a good idea to distinguish between compile errors and runtime errors :P`
`21:38.34`	`Maldivia`	`Tem, you mean the: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Error: Unresolved compilation problem:`
`21:38.37`	`JoshBorke`	`that was going to be a project of mine at some point...`
`21:38.42`	`Tem`	`aye mal`
`21:38.50`	`[MoonWolf]`	`JoshBorke, hell no.`
`21:39.04`	`malreth`	`who? wha?`
`21:39.29`	`Maldivia`	`malreth: you want to be smacked aswell?`
`21:40.41`	`Tem`	`I can't believe how much of my day I just lost to me not reading the error`
`21:41.00`	`JoshBorke`	`reading comprehension ftl eh?`
`21:41.03`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Don't worry about it, Tem.`
`21:41.24`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Worry about how much of my and Maldivia's day you just lost to you not reading the error. :)`
`21:41.26`	`malreth`	`we've all had a day like that`
`21:41.47`	`Tem`	`Thanks a lot for your help guys`
`21:41.49`	`[MoonWolf]`	`more then once`
`21:41.56`	`Tem`	`oh pusha Qzot\|atwork`
`21:42.00`	`Tem`	`you know you wanted a distraction`
`21:42.16`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I used to do graphics work for high-speed printers.`
`21:42.38`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Rule #1: There are good affine transformation days, and bad affine transformation days.`
`21:43.01`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ForgottenLords (n=Forgotte@059.216-123-195-0.interbaun.com)`
`21:43.02`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Rule #2: You cannot write decent transform code on a bad affine transformation day.`
`21:43.28`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Rule #3: All good affine transformation days are preceded by one or more bad affine transformation days.`
`21:45.44`	`Iriel`	`Qzot\|atwork : Postscript, or something more obscure?`
`21:46.38`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`The layer below Postscript. But I also wrote a pdf decomposer to help test the imaging layer.`
`21:48.01`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Reminds me of Ginsberg's restatement of the laws of thermo...`
`21:48.10`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`1. You can't win.`
`21:48.10`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`2. You can't even break even.`
`21:48.10`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`3. You can't get out of the game.`
`21:48.39`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Now, back to work with me...`
`22:02.02`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge JoshBorke (n=Josh@antimatter.stl.gtri.gatech.edu)`
`22:10.57`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Hlaalu (n=PircBot@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`22:19.05`	`Natasem`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-suggestions&t=743731`
`22:19.08`	`Natasem`	`lol ya right`
`22:20.03`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com)`
`22:21.58`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Hlaalu (n=PircBot@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`22:22.13`	`Guillotine`	`hi hlaalu :)`
`22:22.24`	`[MoonWolf]`	`Hlaalu, hi.`
`22:22.25`	`Hlaalu`	`[MoonWolf]: I liked it enough that I liked was "how do others sw deal with you`
`22:22.32`	`[MoonWolf]`	`:P`
`22:22.44`	`Cairenn`	`blink`
`22:22.49`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zespri_work (n=andrews@202-180-70-50.jetbuster.co.nz)`
`22:22.49`	`Guillotine`	`huh?`
`22:23.37`	`[MoonWolf]`	`He is a bot, i made him. he responds to messages beginning with his name.`
`22:23.40`	`Cairenn`	`why do I get the impression that Hlaalu is a bot ...`
`22:23.48`	`Cairenn`	`[MoonWolf]: ...`
`22:23.55`	`Guillotine`	`then get him out of here :P`
`22:24.03`	`Cairenn`	`Guillotine: not your place`
`22:24.07`	`Guillotine`	`we don't want purl to think we're cheating on him...`
`22:24.23`	`Legorol`	`g'evening folks`
`22:24.33`	`[MoonWolf]`	`he is harmless unless you go talk to him.`
`22:24.38`	`Cairenn`	`hey Legorol`
`22:24.45`	`Legorol`	`Does anyone know anything about latest test realm patch?`
`22:24.50`	`Legorol`	`what changed, what fixed..`
`22:24.52`	`Guillotine`	`Cairenn: wasn' being serious :) Just a joke we made a while ago that purl would get jealous if it saw other bots...`
`22:25.19`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I am a bot.`
`22:25.41`	`Guillotine`	`then quite a good one. I never would have guessed`
`22:25.43`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zespri_work (n=andrews@202-180-70-50.jetbuster.co.nz)`
`22:26.01`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Do I pass the Touring test?`
`22:26.09`	`Guillotine`	`with flying colors`
`22:26.25`	`[MoonWolf]`	`colours can fly ?`
`22:26.39`	`Guillotine`	`though you wouldn't know what colors are, b/c you're a bot! HAHAHA! I laugh at your weakness`
`22:26.48`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Note that I spelled Touring the British way, with 'ou', since he was British.`
`22:27.12`	`[MoonWolf]`	`you always spell it ou because its a NAME names dont translate.`
`22:28.05`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Depends on whether they're call by reference or call by value.`
`22:28.09`	`Guillotine`	`that's not what us americans seem to think`
`22:28.15`	`Guillotine`	`we change names to fit our language`
`22:29.00`	`End`	`so we forcibly cast?`
`22:29.08`	`End`	`is that what you are saying?`
`22:29.09`	`Guillotine`	`ever heard of ellis island?`
`22:29.16`	`Guillotine`	`;)`
`22:29.20`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`(There was a great quote by Niklaus Wirth, whether to pronouce his name "worth" or "virt" in the U.S., and he made a refernce to call-by-value and call-by-reference...)`
`22:30.39`	`Iriel`	`Actually, you always spell it Turing, no o`
`22:31.19`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`That was a joke, Iriel.`
`22:31.41`	`Iriel`	`Qzot\|atwork : I know yours was, MoonWolf's comment afterwards however...`
`22:31.41`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Or a poor attempt at one.`
`22:31.52`	`[MoonWolf]`	`i dont know the actuall name, but it doesnt change in language.`
`22:32.17`	`Iriel`	`Alan Turing`
`22:32.23`	`[MoonWolf]`	`i fail at humor once again.`
`22:32.37`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`MoonWolf: That may depend on the locally available orthography, which may in turn depend on the local phonemics.`
`22:33.02`	`[MoonWolf]`	`dont you use complicated words like that.`
`22:33.07`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Hmm. Humour as a Turing test.`
`22:33.26`	`Iriel`	`Qzot\|atwork : An automated response of "Huh? I dont get it" would likely get quite far`
`22:33.48`	`[MoonWolf]`	`only for about the first 5 lines or so.`
`22:34.15`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I dunno. "Huh? I dont get it" only makes sense if it even recognizes the attempt at humour.`
`22:34.20`	`[MoonWolf]`	`but elisa who simply throws what you said back to you does what you suggested only a slightly more complicated level.`
`22:34.25`	`[MoonWolf]`	`and eliza passes turing.`
`22:35.05`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`I don't think Eliza would pass a Turing test with a reasonable cross-section of the western population today.`
`22:35.13`	`End`	`a friend of mine long ago argued with an eliza bot for about an hour once :X`
`22:35.27`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Okay. I take back what I just said, then.`
`22:35.31`	`[MoonWolf]`	`lol`
`22:35.44`	`Legorol`	`yay, they fixed RunBinding exploit!`
`22:35.45`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Hoomanity is doomed.`
`22:35.50`	`Legorol`	`ehm.. let me rephrase that....`
`22:35.57`	`Legorol`	`cry, no more AT :(`
`22:36.02`	`Legorol`	`again!`
`22:36.02`	`zespri_work`	`RunBinding exploit?`
`22:36.14`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`RunBinding exploit?`
`22:36.15`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`AT?`
`22:36.27`	`zespri_work`	`Legorol, tell us more about this`
`22:36.30`	`End`	`was it that you could move around by using RunBinding() or something? that didn't didn't check for hardware event properly?`
`22:36.31`	`[MoonWolf]`	`AutoTarget ?`
`22:36.33`	`Legorol`	`nothing major, zespri`
`22:36.36`	`Legorol`	`AT = AutoTravel`
`22:36.39`	`Iriel`	`RunBinding wasn't subject to the same restrictions as the things it contained`
`22:36.45`	`[MoonWolf]`	`oh`
`22:37.13`	`Iriel`	`Slouken says the various Saved Variables problems will be fixed in the 1.10 release version too`
`22:37.44`	`Legorol`	`it seems some of it already is`
`22:37.48`	`Legorol`	`no more RegForSave`
`22:37.52`	`Guillotine`	`can you still hook RunBinding though?`
`22:38.06`	`End`	`my only gripe (and very minor one at that) is that I would sometimes generate some table, and use RegisterForSave so I could look at it outside of WoW`
`22:38.06`	`Legorol`	`i havent tested yet, just got the update`
`22:38.21`	`Legorol`	`End: just have a generic table in yo9ur ## SavedVar`
`22:38.24`	`Iriel`	`Legorol : I'm referring to some specific problems with non-trivial data types`
`22:38.26`	`Legorol`	`and populate it if you need to, or nil it if you dont`
`22:38.28`	`zespri_work`	`I actually don't bitch often about this types of things, but fishing that was boring enough before, now, without auto-recast is not just only boring but annoying as hell as well`
`22:38.34`	`Legorol`	`Iriel: ah that one`
`22:38.43`	`Legorol`	`not like it matters ot us shrug`
`22:38.53`	`Guillotine`	`auto-cast should work`
`22:38.54`	`Legorol`	`and Bliz isn't using them, otherwise they would've noticed`
`22:38.54`	`End`	`Legorol: Except, this isn't for a specific addon. It's only to test out a /script or something.`
`22:38.55`	`Guillotine`	`you can still call mouselook without a key`
`22:39.03`	`Legorol`	`End: right, that's true`
`22:39.15`	`Legorol`	`Guillotine: what??`
`22:39.21`	`Legorol`	`which function can you call without a key?`
`22:39.32`	`Iriel`	`The new mouselook ones`
`22:39.33`	`Guillotine`	`with the right mouse button you can call fishing`
`22:39.51`	`End`	`what I -should- do, is make an addon called "Testing" or something, with a few defined Saved Variables, and a blank xml and lua file for testing`
`22:39.59`	`Guillotine`	`so just change the right key to call a mouselook and a fishing cast`
`22:40.01`	`Legorol`	`is that exploitable?`
`22:40.05`	`Guillotine`	`don't think so`
`22:40.06`	`Legorol`	`i mean..`
`22:40.15`	`Legorol`	`i haven't played with the new functions yet, but what do they let you do?`
`22:40.20`	`Legorol`	`they are not the same thing as r-click right?`
`22:40.29`	`Legorol`	`sorry, got to go... be back later to test/chat`
`22:40.31`	`Guillotine`	`just activate mouselook, and deactivate mouselook pretty much`
`22:40.53`	`Guillotine`	`be quiet bot`
`22:41.26`	`Guillotine`	`purl, lart Qzot\|atwork`
`22:41.45`	`Guillotine`	`<3 purl`
`22:41.48`	`Guillotine`	`purl is the only bot for me`
`22:41.50`	`Guillotine`	`and panda`
`22:42.15`	`Qzot\|atwork`	`Guellotine: I have a blank addon for exactly the purpose you describe. And Luapad to drive it...`
`22:43.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine_ (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com)`
`22:43.15`	`zespri_work`	`what mouslook has to do with this?`
`22:43.41`	`Guillotine_`	`that that's how most auto-cast (for fishing) addons work`
`22:43.50`	`Guillotine_`	`by hooking the right click button`
`22:46.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine_ (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com)`
`22:48.30`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Guillotine__ (n=Guilloti@ns.motek-services.com)`
`22:48.56`	`krka`	`woo, someone said AT`
`22:49.23`	`End`	`yeah, well I say, &T`
`22:49.29`	`Natasem`	`Hlaalu <3 Purl`
`22:53.04`	`zespri_work`	`right ckick button is hooked by hooking TurnOrActionStart, right?`
`22:53.25`	`zespri_work`	`or is there another way?`
`22:53.38`	`Kirov`	`no`
`22:56.34`	`Iriel`	`Hm, how does lua's tail recursion handling look in terms of the calling stack on a function?`
`22:56.42`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zeetg (n=wguru@63.147.183.47)`
`22:56.47`	`Iriel`	`i.e. if I have function A() end function B() return A() end`
`22:57.15`	`Iriel`	`if I do function C() B() end`
`22:57.25`	`Iriel`	`then does A know it's called from B, or does it just see C on the call stack?`
`22:57.47`	`krka`	`hmm`
`22:57.50`	`krka`	`probably won't tailrecurse`
`22:58.28`	`zespri_work`	`Is it possible to examine the stack ata ll in lua?`
`22:58.31`	`Iriel`	`Well, LUA has a TAILCALL operand`
`22:58.33`	`krka`	`actually... scrap that`
`22:58.36`	`Iriel`	`So it does`
`22:58.43`	`krka`	`might be possible to check at runtime`
`22:58.43`	`Iriel`	`But what that looks like on the call stack, I dont know`
`22:58.50`	`Iriel`	`zespri: yes, kinda.`
`22:59.07`	`Iriel`	`Most of the API functions have access to the lua C api's so they can do quite a lot`
`22:59.56`	`zespri_work`	`why does it matter for you?`
`23:00.01`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem_ (n=Tem@ip70-177-40-169.br.br.cox.net)`
`23:00.24`	`krka`	`might be that the compiler can tailcall-optimize certain code`
`23:01.16`	`Iriel`	`Well, if the tailcall didn't show up in the call stack then it may be a way to get around the hooking restriction`
`23:01.28`	`krka`	`just compile some code and test`
`23:01.33`	`Iriel`	`So, B doesn't show up in the stack, but there's a tailcall indication`
`23:01.37`	`Iriel`	`Wonder if slouken checked for that 8-)`
`23:01.55`	`zespri_work`	`oh, that's what they are doing!`
`23:02.06`	`zespri_work`	`I was wondering how they implemented this =)`
`23:02.12`	`Iriel`	`That's what I THINK they're doing`
`23:02.15`	`End`	`well`
`23:02.19`	`Iriel`	`It's the only logical way`
`23:02.20`	`End`	`lua remembers there is a tail call`
`23:02.34`	`End`	`however, I don't know what it stores`
`23:03.05`	`Iriel`	`My suspicion is that the WoW LUA runtime flags each function with whether it was created in a 'secure' or 'unsecure' execution environment`
`23:03.13`	`Iriel`	`(i.e. core API, or signed addon)`
`23:03.25`	`krka`	`not getting and tailcall when i compile`
`23:03.26`	`Iriel`	`And then the 'restricted' functions examine their stack`
`23:03.28`	`krka`	`any`
`23:03.34`	`Iriel`	`krka;l Did you remember to RETURN the value?`
`23:03.41`	`Iriel`	`function B() A() end doesn't work`
`23:03.45`	`Iriel`	`function B() return A(); end`
`23:03.46`	`Iriel`	`is required`
`23:03.48`	`krka`	`ah, no i dien't`
`23:04.15`	`Iriel`	`So, i'd be interesting to see what happens if you hook TurnOrActionStart with a tailcall to the original`
`23:04.22`	`Iriel`	`it'd be, even`
`23:04.31`	`zespri_work`	`TAILCALL only generated by return statement, so it's not surprising`
`23:04.42`	`krka`	`wtf, the lua compiler is stupid: function C() return nil end compiles to: LOADNIL RETURN RETURN`
`23:04.59`	`krka`	`and yeah, i got a TAILCALL then iriel`
`23:06.06`	`Iriel`	`krka: You'll find the returns have different parameters`
`23:06.38`	`Iriel`	`krka: I dont know lua bytecode well enough to know if that makes either of them non-redundant`
`23:06.55`	`krka`	`yes, but function() end should compile as the same thing as function() return nil end but it doesn't`
`23:07.45`	`ckknight`	`no it shouldn't, krka`
`23:08.01`	`krka`	`why not?`
`23:08.01`	`ckknight`	`hang on, lemme draw up an example`
`23:08.17`	`ckknight`	`function alpha(...) print(table.getn(arg)) end`
`23:08.32`	`ckknight`	`alpha(function() return end) -- returns 0`
`23:08.40`	`ckknight`	`alpha(function() return nil end) -- returns 1`
`23:08.48`	`ckknight`	`alpha(function() return nil, nil end) -- returns 2`
`23:08.53`	`krka`	`oh, didn't know that`
`23:09.24`	`End`	`so...what does function C() return; end do?`
`23:09.45`	`krka`	`function alpha(...) print(table.getn(arg)) end`
`23:09.45`	`krka`	`alpha(function() return end)`
`23:09.45`	`krka`	`alpha(function() return nil end)`
`23:09.45`	`krka`	`alpha(function() return nil, nil end)`
`23:09.49`	`krka`	`1`
`23:09.53`	`krka`	`1`
`23:09.53`	`krka`	`that's what i got`
`23:10.04`	`zespri_work`	`lol, Iriel you seem to be right`
`23:10.08`	`Iriel`	`function X() end; and function Y() return; end;`
`23:10.15`	`Iriel`	`generate different opcodes`
`23:10.22`	`Iriel`	`in the latter case, there's a redundant RETURN 0 1 0`
`23:10.35`	`krka`	`ckknight, did you even try your own code? :)`
`23:10.45`	`krka`	`we must use different lua versions`
`23:10.47`	`ckknight`	`oh, krka, I messed up`
`23:11.06`	`ckknight`	`alpha((function() return end)())`
`23:11.10`	`ckknight`	`alpha((function() return nil end)())`
`23:11.15`	`ckknight`	`alpha((function() return nil, nil end)())`
`23:11.23`	`krka`	`ah`
`23:11.31`	`ckknight`	`before, it was feeding a function, not the results`
`23:11.45`	`End`	`hmm, it looks like lua just remembers the number of tailcalls, but that's all it stores`
`23:12.10`	`krka`	`that got the expected results`
`23:12.12`	`End`	`I say looks like, because that's what a grep and a quick look seems to tell me`
`23:12.15`	`Iriel`	`End: Which makes sense, since the point of a tailcall is to not waste stack`
`23:12.45`	`zespri_work`	`http://wow.pastebin.com/602618`
`23:12.48`	`krka`	`i must say am annoyed with lua over this`
`23:12.57`	`krka`	`trailing nils shouldn't make a difference imo`
`23:13.02`	`Iriel`	`End: And that's what my test using debug.traceback() shows`
`23:13.05`	`Iriel`	`krka: Ye,s they should`
`23:13.11`	`zespri_work`	`Well, now it's not entirely clear if this information is stored on stack or is it just traceback limitation`
`23:13.16`	`Iriel`	`krka: That's very important for correctness`
`23:13.20`	`End`	`zespri, I got the same output when I tried the same thing.`
`23:13.20`	`krka`	`why?`
`23:13.21`	`Iriel`	`return x,y returns 2 values, ALWAYS`
`23:13.26`	`Iriel`	`regardless of the values of x and y`
`23:13.33`	`End`	`actually, my example is backwards o_O`
`23:13.48`	`Iriel`	`lua lets those who dont care not care`
`23:13.51`	`End`	`http://endif.cjb.net/misc/foo.lua`
`23:13.52`	`Iriel`	`but those who DO care, it works for`
`23:13.58`	`End`	`I switced the order of A and C`
`23:13.59`	`End`	`:P`
`23:14.15`	`End`	`oh, and I used io.write`
`23:14.19`	`zespri_work`	`End, lol`
`23:14.22`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zeeg (n=wguru@63.147.183.47)`
`23:14.54`	`krka`	`still haven't seen any real example where it's _useful_`
`23:15.21`	`Kirov`	`as a topic to discuss on irc?`
`23:15.26`	`Iriel`	`krka: Pseudo-operator-overloading`
`23:15.36`	`Iriel`	`The pass-by version, rather than the return-by version`
`23:15.43`	`Iriel`	`But really, it boils down to the way the language works`
`23:15.49`	`Iriel`	`the number of 'return slots' is pre-determined in the bytecode`
`23:15.55`	`Iriel`	`and doesn't vary during execution`
`23:16.03`	`Iriel`	`if you do return x,y then it reserves 2`
`23:16.06`	`krka`	`hmm... not getting through to me, will need a concrete example`
`23:16.32`	`Kirov`	`function A() return x, y end`
`23:16.43`	`Kirov`	`local x,y,z = A(), 1, 2`
`23:16.48`	`Kirov`	`badness`
`23:16.56`	`Iriel`	`krka: Well, not really`
`23:17.07`	`Iriel`	`krka: lua defines that when followed by a , only the first return is used`
`23:17.09`	`krka`	`in that case you only get the first value from A, right?`
`23:17.19`	`Iriel`	`Oops, I meanr Kirov, not krka, there`
`23:17.20`	`Iriel`	`yeah`
`23:17.25`	`Iriel`	`if it's on the END you get all of it`
`23:17.29`	`Iriel`	`otherwise you just get the first`
`23:17.54`	`krka`	`i just want an example of when removing trailing nils from return in the compiling step can be a bad thing`
`23:18.30`	`Iriel`	`krka: The compiling step doesn't know they're nil`
`23:18.34`	`Iriel`	`return x,y;`
`23:18.38`	`Iriel`	`how does it know if y is nil`
`23:18.44`	`Iriel`	`It cant`
`23:18.53`	`krka`	`in Kirov's example, i'd rather have lua functions always return the same number of variables`
`23:18.54`	`End`	`wasn't the original example return nil; though?`
`23:19.08`	`Iriel`	`And if return x,y (where both are nil) is different than return nil, nil, then you WILL run into problems later`
`23:19.20`	`Iriel`	`just because you'll forget, the rule makes no sense`
`23:19.27`	`krka`	`hm, true, the compiler can't always tell`
`23:19.29`	`Iriel`	`if you didn't WANT a nil, then you shouldn't have PUT one in your code`
`23:20.25`	`krka`	`ok, it's probably the ... i am upset with then`
`23:20.34`	`Kirov`	`I guess a better example would be`
`23:20.34`	`Kirov`	`local x,y,z = A(), 1 ... if the y is nil and it doesn't return it, y will == 1 instead of z`
`23:20.37`	`Iriel`	`Now the ... can be useful`
`23:20.52`	`Iriel`	`suppose I have a function that has different behaviours based on number of arguments`
`23:21.03`	`Iriel`	`(But arbitrary subsets of the arguments can be nil)`
`23:21.03`	`krka`	`table.getn(args) = 2, with args = {1 = nil, 2 = nil)?`
`23:21.09`	`Iriel`	`I need a way to tell between A(x) and A(x,y)`
`23:21.11`	`krka`	`that makes no sense to me`
`23:21.57`	`Iriel`	`kirov : x,y,z = A(),1 is ALWAYS x=A(); y=1; z=nil`
`23:22.16`	`krka`	`overloading function behaviour in lua... shudder`
`23:22.35`	`Iriel`	`krka: Some of the base API calls are arg-count-dependent, in WoW`
`23:22.41`	`krka`	`yeah, i know`
`23:22.49`	`krka`	`actually, didn't know that`
`23:22.53`	`zespri_work`	`Actually I think it's simple enought to modify lua code so it never generates TAILCALL instruction and genereates CALL instead`
`23:22.55`	`krka`	`i assumed they check for nil-values`
`23:23.02`	`Iriel`	`It's not commonly done, but it's possible`
`23:23.03`	`zespri_work`	`this one think blizz may have done`
`23:23.05`	`Iriel`	`Some do, some dont`
`23:23.18`	`krka`	`SetTexCoord?`
`23:23.34`	`End`	`zespri, yeah, that's what I was thinking`
`23:24.08`	`End`	`unless it is the taint method`
`23:24.17`	`Iriel`	`zespri_work : That'd be bad, because you'd break code which depends on it`
`23:24.32`	`End`	`where going into "unsafe" (addon, or whatever) code sets a tainted bit`
`23:24.47`	`End`	`well, a little more than a bit, since you need to know what addon`
`23:25.03`	`krka`	`i don't think blizzard worries to much about addon writers who depend on tail-recursion`
`23:25.20`	`zespri_work`	`I thoght that TAILCALL is merely optimization`
`23:25.33`	`zespri_work`	`Am I wrong Iriel?`
`23:25.48`	`krka`	`it is... but it can mean the difference between stack overflow and not`
`23:25.53`	`Iriel`	`what krka said`
`23:25.56`	`End`	`that's the ...oh`
`23:26.06`	`End`	`I was about to say that's the only reason I can think of`
`23:26.07`	`Iriel`	`NOT having it means you have to implement some things differently`
`23:26.15`	`End`	`but I guess it is -the- reason :P`
`23:26.17`	`krka`	`tailrecursion can replace while-loops`
`23:26.32`	`End`	`oh`
`23:26.33`	`End`	`However, a tail call erases any debug information about the calling function.`
`23:26.37`	`Iriel`	`so it's one of those things where it's vitally important to know that if the language promises to do it.`
`23:26.41`	`krka`	`i'll give an exmaple`
`23:26.41`	`End`	`from the lua manual`
`23:26.57`	`End`	`so that confirms what we thought`
`23:27.00`	`Iriel`	`End: yes, because the calling function has been unwound, that's kind of the point`
`23:27.01`	`Kirov`	`http://wow.pastebin.com/602640`
`23:27.01`	`Kirov`	`should Table:foo() return "bar" in this case?`
`23:27.03`	`zespri_work`	`right`
`23:27.06`	`End`	`there isn't -any- trace :P`
`23:27.10`	`Iriel`	`End: The real question, however, is.. did slouken protect against it`
`23:27.18`	`Iriel`	`There's a trace that the tailcall happened (and how many)`
`23:27.35`	`Iriel`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:27.35`	`End`	`are we all at work or something?`
`23:27.35`	`Iriel`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:27.35`	`Iriel`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:27.35`	`Iriel`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:27.35`	`Iriel`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:27.38`	`Iriel`	`I am, yes`
`23:27.43`	`End`	`it shouldn't be too hard to test`
`23:28.19`	`Iriel`	`function TurnOrActionStart() return TurnOrActionStart(); end`
`23:28.23`	`Iriel`	`That should do the trick`
`23:28.27`	`Iriel`	`With /script in front`
`23:28.28`	`zespri_work`	`Kirov you can't use local inside a table`
`23:28.45`	`Kirov`	`er, bad me`
`23:28.46`	`End`	`isn't /script already considered unsafe though?`
`23:28.54`	`Kirov`	`sans the local, should it work?`
`23:28.59`	`End`	`I mean, wouldn't it see that in the stack either way?`
`23:29.08`	`Iriel`	`End that does nothing until you click`
`23:29.19`	`End`	`oh, yeah, I'm dumb`
`23:29.22`	`End`	`you're right.`
`23:30.03`	`krka`	`two versions of the same function, one tailrecursive, one iterative http://wow.pastebin.com/602645`
`23:30.09`	`Iriel`	`Kirov: You want Table = { bar = "bar"; foo = function(self) return self.bar; end }`
`23:30.12`	`zespri_work`	`Kirov, not really because you have to reference bar as Table.bar then if bar is a member`
`23:30.13`	`Iriel`	`Kirov: I think`
`23:30.24`	`Iriel`	`Kirov: because that function syntax isn't valid in a table either`
`23:31.32`	`Iriel`	`Kirov: local bar = "bar"; Table = { foo = function() return bar; end } is also valid`
`23:31.38`	`Iriel`	`But has rather different behaviour`
`23:32.02`	`krka`	`what you want is a closure object!`
`23:32.07`	`krka`	`private variables FTW`
`23:32.12`	`Iriel`	`I'm not sure if that's what he wanted tho`
`23:32.14`	`Iriel`	`It may have been`
`23:32.19`	`krka`	`j/k`
`23:32.25`	`Kirov`	`...`
`23:32.28`	`Iriel`	`I find closures rather fun tho, I must say`
`23:32.44`	`krka`	`it's my favorite -ure`
`23:32.51`	`Kirov`	`The examples Iriel gave make sense.`
`23:32.56`	`End`	`well`
`23:32.57`	`Kirov`	`I'm ignoring krka though`
`23:33.02`	`krka`	`aww`
`23:33.03`	`End`	`it is better than manure`
`23:33.11`	`krka`	`for sure`
`23:33.22`	`End`	`unless you are gardening`
`23:33.31`	`krka`	`that's too mature`
`23:34.04`	`zespri_work`	`not sure how much more if this I can endure`
`23:34.06`	`End`	`umm, that's not pure?`
`23:34.20`	`krka`	`you all fell for my lure!`
`23:34.41`	`krka`	`i am afraid there's no known cure`
`23:34.50`	`Kirov`	`http://wow.pastebin.com/602648 would be correct, right?`
`23:35.05`	`krka`	`no`
`23:35.10`	`krka`	`you need to put self as the first parameter`
`23:35.11`	`End`	`There was someone named Midge Ure`
`23:35.15`	`Iriel`	`Kirov: What krka just said`
`23:35.24`	`Kirov`	`opps`
`23:35.33`	`krka`	`the only time self magically appears is when using :`
`23:35.36`	`Iriel`	`Kirov: self is only implicit if you do the function Table:foo() return self.bar; end`
`23:35.44`	`krka`	`what Iriel just said`
`23:35.52`	`End`	`I was about to say that. :(`
`23:35.57`	`Iriel`	`"magically appears" is more fun than "implicit" tho`
`23:36.14`	`End`	`personally I like the word automagically. and yes, it is a word now.`
`23:36.22`	`krka`	`implicit is teacher-word for "magic i am too tired to explain"`
`23:37.04`	`krka`	`i personally try to avoid the colon when defining functions`
`23:37.22`	`krka`	`it's quite nice for calling though`
`23:37.32`	`Iriel`	`End: You know, based on some of the bugs around the 'blizzard only' error, i'm inclined to think they may indeed be using explicit tainting`
`23:37.34`	`End`	`hmm, apparently automagically is an example of a portmanteau`
`23:38.04`	`End`	`Iriel: well, tainting means they won't be fooled by tail recursion at least.`
`23:38.29`	`krka`	`they're adding stuff to our bytecode???`
`23:38.52`	`zespri_work`	`Iriel, what is explicit tainitning and what are blizz only errors?`
`23:39.22`	`zespri_work`	`oh blizzz only is that is displayed when you hook`
`23:39.38`	`zespri_work`	`what is explicit tainting then?`
`23:40.29`	`krka`	`Iriel, do you mean they add a "someVariable = true" when entering a common-function?`
`23:40.43`	`krka`	`and with common i mean untrusted`
`23:40.50`	`Iriel`	`krka: I'd imagine it's done at the VM level, not in lua`
`23:41.16`	`Iriel`	`krka: But that'd be what a tainting model was, as end described it earlier, set the flag if you were previously untainted, and enter an untrusted call`
`23:41.23`	`krka`	`must be difficult to keep track of it at runtime`
`23:41.26`	`krka`	`soup and crackers and all`
`23:41.31`	`End`	`probably not`
`23:41.34`	`End`	`I mean`
`23:41.36`	`zespri_work`	`Yeah if you rephrase "hooking not allowed" to "calling these functions from addons not allowed" then I think you;ll see the picture more clear..`
`23:41.37`	`End`	`probably not difficult`
`23:41.45`	`Iriel`	`well, not really, you just mark each closure and/or prototype as trusted or not`
`23:42.05`	`krka`	`hm, yeah i guess`
`23:42.13`	`Legorol`	`hi folks`
`23:42.18`	`krka`	`hi folk`
`23:42.18`	`Iriel`	`Some of those bugs looked like places where it forgot to reset the flag`
`23:42.29`	`Legorol`	`if you don't mind, i'll jump into the discussion too :-)`
`23:42.37`	`zespri_work`	`although. What if you hook something and never call the original function? in most cases this is not a concern for blizzard because there is not many functinal things that you can achive with this. all these functions are really vital and you can't just not call them`
`23:42.51`	`Iriel`	`I suspect that still works zespri`
`23:42.52`	`krka`	`you can take over my spot, i really should get some sleep about now... or about an hour ago`
`23:42.55`	`Legorol`	`zespri: you can still hook fine if you don't call the original`
`23:43.04`	`Iriel`	`it's not really a hook then tho, it's more of a 'replacement' 8-)`
`23:43.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ForgottenLords (n=Forgotte@059.216-123-195-0.interbaun.com)`
`23:43.16`	`Legorol`	`i'm not going to read everything you guys said, so if i ask/say something that's already been said, stop me`
`23:43.28`	`Legorol`	`one thing i wanted to note about Blizzard's guarding is that i doubt it's based on stacktrace`
`23:43.33`	`krka`	`sorry lego, we already said that`
`23:43.37`	`Legorol`	`ok`
`23:43.42`	`krka`	`jk!`
`23:43.44`	`End`	`Legorol, we went into a long discussion about tail calls, and the generation of return statements :P`
`23:43.45`	`Iriel`	`well, we said it may or may not be 8-)`
`23:43.59`	`Legorol`	`i have strong arguments for why it isn't based on stack trace`
`23:44.10`	`Legorol`	`well maybe not that strong`
`23:44.20`	`Legorol`	`but it's because of global functions and hooks`
`23:44.24`	`zespri_work`	`Legorol, you better tekk what it's based on on your opinion then`
`23:44.31`	`Legorol`	`ok sorry`
`23:44.35`	`Legorol`	`in my opinion :-)`
`23:44.36`	`krka`	`one sure sign of me needing sleep is when my sense of humor goes from weak to non-existant`
`23:44.45`	`Legorol`	`krka, you are always funny`
`23:44.47`	`Legorol`	`no worries`
`23:44.54`	`Legorol`	`btw, today i mourned the death of AT for the second time`
`23:44.56`	`Iriel`	`Legorol: I think you're basing 'stack trace' on the wrong aspect of the trace`
`23:44.58`	`Legorol`	`it was less painful this time`
`23:45.03`	`krka`	`that implies i never need sleep O_O`
`23:45.05`	`Legorol`	`Iriel, quite possibly`
`23:45.05`	`zespri_work`	`So Legorol, what it's not based on stack trace, what is it based on?`
`23:45.12`	`Iriel`	`Legorol: Blizzard have the function OBJECTS to look at, not the names`
`23:45.12`	`Legorol`	`memory location`
`23:45.17`	`zespri_work`	`This what I actually asked, sorry for the conbfusion Lego`
`23:45.29`	`Legorol`	`Iriel: yeah`
`23:45.34`	`Iriel`	`memory location == stack trace tho`
`23:45.39`	`Iriel`	`if it's "memory location of the caller`
`23:45.40`	`Legorol`	`ehm...`
`23:45.45`	`Legorol`	`oh right`
`23:45.47`	`Legorol`	`in that sense`
`23:46.02`	`Iriel`	`I think End's suggestion of a taint model is more likely tho, at present`
`23:46.07`	`Legorol`	`i thought that "stack trace" in this context is the calling sequence of function names`
`23:46.23`	`krka`	`isn't there any available blizzard function that takes a function as a parameter and calls it?`
`23:46.29`	`Iriel`	`It's "calling sequence of function/closure/prototype objects"`
`23:46.31`	`Legorol`	`it wouldn't matter, krka`
`23:46.38`	`krka`	`then we could pass the untouchables to it and let blizzard execute it`
`23:46.43`	`Legorol`	`yes Iriel, that's my conclusion too`
`23:46.51`	`Iriel`	`krka: But we'd still be on the bottom`
`23:46.58`	`Legorol`	`actually krka has a point`
`23:47.00`	`Iriel`	`krka: And so a stack analysis would find it`
`23:47.03`	`krka`	`ah, so it's not just the direct caller?`
`23:47.04`	`Iriel`	`krka: And so it wouldn't work`
`23:47.07`	`krka`	`but the complete stack?`
`23:47.07`	`Iriel`	`I would hope so`
`23:47.08`	`Legorol`	`if you pass the reference of an original Blizz function to a blizz function, you would be fine`
`23:47.12`	`Iriel`	`Slouken's not THAT sloppy`
`23:47.15`	`krka`	`but that doesn't fit in with RunBinding`
`23:47.26`	`Legorol`	`how does RunBinding work now?`
`23:47.30`	`krka`	`our code -> RunBinding -> untouchable`
`23:47.33`	`Iriel`	`krka: That depends on what RunBinding does`
`23:47.51`	`Iriel`	`RunBinding may have been going back into the C and coming out again on a 'blessed' entrypoint`
`23:48.01`	`krka`	`true`
`23:48.13`	`Legorol`	`Iriel, that's almost certainly the case`
`23:48.21`	`Iriel`	`That was my assumption`
`23:48.39`	`Iriel`	`To me the really interesting thoughts are around how stuff gets blessed`
`23:48.57`	`Iriel`	`And how robust that is`
`23:48.58`	`Legorol`	`brb`
`23:49.05`	`Legorol`	`i have some ideas to discuss on that :-)`
`23:49.06`	`Legorol`	`brb`
`23:49.26`	`krka`	`Iriel, they probably have lots of auto-generated paladins in their database for that`
`23:50.03`	`krka`	`ok... so about my idea, do we have any way of actually testing it?`
`23:50.22`	`krka`	`i recall some old version of the dropdown code taking functions as input somewhere`
`23:50.28`	`Iriel`	`sure, find a blizzard function that calls something else`
`23:50.38`	`Iriel`	`then remap the something else to one of the 'restricted' functions`
`23:50.49`	`Iriel`	`then call the blizzard function`
`23:51.01`	`Iriel`	`Just pick something suitably obscure`
`23:51.21`	`krka`	`hmm... yeah, could probably even just reset some other global function directly`
`23:51.39`	`zespri_work`	`So once again, why stack trace is less like for doing this?`
`23:51.44`	`zespri_work`	`*likely`
`23:52.34`	`krka`	`ok, going to sleep now, looking forward to a report in a couple of hours`
`23:53.39`	`Iriel`	`zespri: I'm basing my leaning that way entirely on how it failed in test, but it may be a cleaner implementation too`
`23:54.36`	`zespri_work`	`Can you expand on this please? What exactly in the way how it failed in test contradicts the stack ealking model?`
`23:54.37`	`Iriel`	`The flip side of that argument is that a stack approach only affects those functions which need to be protected, as well as allowing quite complex tainting rules, whereas a taint flag affects the performance of every function call`
`23:54.56`	`Iriel`	`Well, in test some quite 'innocent' automatic operations seemed to get flagged`
`23:55.32`	`Iriel`	`That's either some problem with the LoD blessing system, or some problem with the clearing of a taint flag.`
`23:55.41`	`Iriel`	`the latter seems slightly more likely`
`23:55.43`	`Iriel`	`slightly`
`23:56.08`	`Iriel`	`but who knows, I could be miles off 8-)`
`23:56.24`	`Iriel`	`Without a wow client in front of me to delve, i'm only guessing`
`23:56.33`	`zespri_work`	`I don't get it. the 'innocent' operations shouldn't get flagged the very same way as they won't show anyhing bad on stack. what's the difference?`
`23:57.12`	`Iriel`	`a stack trace based scheme can't be affected by something that happened earlier than the current execution stack`
`23:57.20`	`Iriel`	`Because you're just looking at this call stack`
`23:57.28`	`Iriel`	`A taint flag, however, might persist forever`
`23:57.39`	`Iriel`	`so if you forget to reset it, it catches the next thing that runs`
`23:57.40`	`zespri_work`	`Ok, then how in your opininon the tainting model work?`
`23:57.56`	`Iriel`	`We're single threaded in lua land, so there only has to be one taint flag`
`23:58.18`	`zespri_work`	`oh I see`
`23:58.48`	`zespri_work`	`It's just not completely clear when to set this flag`
`23:59.11`	`zespri_work`	`and then when to reset`
`23:59.23`	`Iriel`	`I suspect it's SUPPOSED to get reset whenever the program flow leaves the game engine and hits the LUA world`
`23:59.32`	`Iriel`	`But that some LUA entrypoints got missed`
`23:59.49`	`zespri_work`	`this is something that would take time to figure it ouit fopr blizzard. Where as the stack trace comcept is much more ... er.. visual.`

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