irclog2html for #wowi-lounge on 20060312

`00:01.33`	`Iriel`	`indeed`
`00:03.03`	`zeeg`	`http://digg.com/programming/Web_2.0_-_Where_AJAX_Doesn_t_Fix_Sucking`
`00:08.51`	`Shouryuu`	`night`
`00:10.31`	`Qzot\|fromWork`	`Weird. GetItemInfo returns two different slot locations: INVTYPE_CHEST and INVTYPE_ROBE. Those both go in the chest slot, I think.`
`00:21.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kaelten (n=Kaelten@68.63.3.183)`
`00:22.10`	`*** mode/#WoWI-lounge [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ`
`00:22.19`	`Kaelten`	`hello`
`00:22.25`	`Qzot\|commuting`	`Heyo.`
`00:22.29`	`Qzot\|commuting`	`Later, folk.`
`00:25.09`	`Osagasu`	`hai, chio`
`00:25.12`	`Osagasu`	`*ciao`
`00:30.04`	`Cairenn`	`hi Kaelten, later Qzot\|commuting`
`00:30.12`	`Cairenn`	`hey Iriel`
`00:32.08`	`Kaelten`	`hey cair`
`00:36.33`	`Kaelten`	`anyone have any suggestions on how to implement a chunked processing handler?`
`00:36.39`	`zeeg`	`wewt!`
`00:36.42`	`zeeg`	`go tmy mustang :D`
`00:50.49`	`Cairenn`	`grats zeeg`
`00:53.30`	`Cairenn`	`nothing quite so nice as rl lewt hey?`
`00:53.36`	`zeeg`	`:D`
`00:58.27`	`Legorol`	`Kaelten, you here?`
`00:58.44`	`Legorol`	`is this by any chance for KC_EnhTrades :D`
`00:59.18`	`Legorol`	`if not, i would like to complain that KC_EnhTrades is very "laggy" in the sense that it pauzes the UI for about a second each time you scroll the TradeSkill frame`
`00:59.46`	`Legorol`	`if yes, then i'm sure people here can help`
`01:00.02`	`Legorol`	`As a start, you need to be able to break down the processing task you are doing into small units`
`01:00.03`	`Osagasu`	`IMO there are too many new mustangs on the road... Thunderbird FTW`
`01:00.19`	`Legorol`	`Once you've done that, you use OnUpdate`
`01:00.46`	`Legorol`	`you set a time limit, say 100 - 200 ms. You start performing each unit, until the time runs out.`
`01:00.56`	`Legorol`	`then you pause your processing and return from the OnUpdate`
`01:01.01`	`Legorol`	`you carry on with the next OnUpdate`
`01:01.26`	`Legorol`	`I suggest you have a look at Chronos, it has library functions for chunked processing, based on the above idea`
`01:21.40`	`Iriel`	`It's very easy to implement yourself too though`
`01:21.52`	`Iriel`	`The hardest part is storing the state in a predictably restorable way`
`01:23.45`	`Iriel`	`Once you have that down, the mechanics of yielding and resuming are pretty easy`
`01:38.39`	`Legorol`	`hi Iriel!`
`01:40.16`	`Iriel`	`Hi, playing the idle/unidle game today`
`02:02.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-164-255.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`02:02.22`	`ToastTheif`	`whats up with ace site?`
`02:02.30`	`Cairenn`	`it's down`
`02:02.45`	`ToastTheif`	`mm`
`02:02.51`	`ToastTheif`	`when is it gonna be back :)`
`02:04.56`	`Cairenn`	`shrug ask Kaelten :p`
`02:16.20`	`Ktron`	`Mod idea for someone to make for me, or maybe I'll get up to it-- record time played per zone by character, level(s), race/faction, and maybe by time in combat/out of combat`
`02:16.32`	`Ktron`	`nice ui to view all the info`
`02:16.37`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge ForgottenLords (n=Forgotte@059.216-123-195-0.interbaun.com)`
`02:16.55`	`Ktron`	`and make the information save independent of which character/server you're playing on`
`02:17.39`	`Ktron`	`Potentially integrate in a data collection system, so that there could be a database online somewhere where people could see where people play`
`02:17.48`	`Ktron`	`based on all the info I listed.`
`02:18.24`	`Ktron`	`should only have to fire on changing zones`
`02:23.57`	`Kaelten`	`ask me what?`
`02:24.19`	`Ktron`	`I think it was about the ace site, I think wowace was down`
`02:24.33`	`Ktron`	`s/was/is/`
`02:24.53`	`Ktron`	`and the second was should be an is too`
`02:25.01`	`Iriel`	`Can someone go to http://www2.vigilance-committee.org/wow/downloads/ and tell me if it works?`
`02:25.04`	`Kaelten`	`damnit its spost to be bqack up by now.`
`02:25.23`	`Kaelten`	`works iriel`
`02:25.24`	`Ktron`	`Iriel; as in, can we see a directory list?`
`02:25.29`	`Iriel`	`Ktron : Yes`
`02:25.33`	`Cairenn`	`works for me Iriel`
`02:25.37`	`Ktron`	`obselete/, random/, ss/, APIInfo-1.5.0.zip... yp`
`02:25.40`	`Ktron`	`*yep`
`02:25.49`	`Iriel`	`Cool, thanks`
`02:25.57`	`Cairenn`	`Kaelten: ace still not responding`
`02:26.01`	`Iriel`	`Building out a replacement server at the server farm`
`02:26.13`	`Iriel`	`(It was time, my old one's about 5 years old)`
`02:27.55`	`Kaelten`	`sites back up`
`02:28.06`	`Ktron`	`yay`
`02:28.19`	`Ktron`	`hopefully ToastTheif heard that`
`02:28.23`	`Kaelten`	`apprently when the server restarted it didn't restart the dns service....`
`02:30.14`	`ToastTheif`	`?`
`02:30.32`	`Cairenn`	`that happens`
`02:30.39`	`Iriel`	`Isn't there a backup DNS server?`
`02:42.24`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphon (n=masked@c-67-183-238-150.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)`
`02:56.44`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge SP\|Sorren (n=email@adsl-63-204-73-249.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)`
`03:06.16`	`Kaelten`	`there are two, but both are hosted on the same server`
`03:06.30`	`Iriel`	`Ah`
`03:06.43`	`Iriel`	`Can't you find a friendly site to do mutual slaving?`
`03:06.53`	`Kaelten`	`maybe.`
`03:07.09`	`Kaelten`	`hmm I'm thinking about moving the site again, which sucks`
`03:09.22`	`Iriel`	`I'm in the midst of moving all of mine`
`03:09.24`	`Iriel`	`it's a joy`
`03:14.59`	`Iriel`	`I'm most terrified of moving email, that's always the fiddliest`
`04:05.13`	`Codayus`	`Umm....very random question. Anyone know if there's any loss of quality in using a DVI to VGA converter? (ie, connecting a graphics card with only DVI out to a CRT?)`
`04:08.55`	`Ktron`	`I don't think so, but I don't know so`
`04:09.44`	`Codayus`	`hrm`
`04:09.46`	`MentalPower`	`as with all conversions there is always some loss`
`04:10.06`	`MentalPower`	`is it noticeable, not really. is it measurable, yes`
`04:11.21`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Codayus: Some resolutions may not be supported DVI->VGA, and there is a loss. I can notice it on my Samsung 242MP when playing WoW on 1920x1200`
`04:11.54`	`Codayus`	`Hm`
`04:12.52`	`Codayus`	`I'm about to buy a graphics card, but the variety I was looking at apparently only comes with DVI out. But my monitor doesn't have DVI in. Hmm. Although come to think of it, isn't a card with VGA out basically doing the conversion on board anyhow?`
`04:13.12`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`Actually, wait, that 242MP comparison is actually VGA (comp)->VGA (LCD) and DVI (comp)->DVI (LCD)`
`04:13.56`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`It may be the case that DVI->VGA (comp)->VGA (LCD) provides better quality, but I seriously doubt it`
`04:15.16`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`VGA is an analog signal, while DVI is a digital signal, yes. When you have a monitor capable of rendering digitally (like a HD monitor), you'll notice a difference.`
`04:15.41`	`Codayus`	`Alright...`
`04:15.45`	`GenNMX\|Thrae`	`But I don't think you'll notice a difference with a cheap monitor w/ DVI vs your current monitor w/ VGA`
`04:17.11`	`Codayus`	`Oh well, probably isn't an issue.`
`04:23.15`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Wobin_ (n=wob@221.221.32.97)`
`04:34.11`	`MentalPower`	`gnight guys`
`04:36.08`	`Cairenn`	`night MentalPower`
`04:50.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Crispix (n=Crispy@c-24-7-241-103.hsd1.in.comcast.net)`
`05:28.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge KarlKFI (n=karl@adsl-67-127-99-167.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)`
`05:30.24`	`Tain`	`I will say I have a noticable difference on my cheap ($200) lcd between dvi and vga connection.`
`06:06.17`	`Tem`	`Jesus they must have taken the cap off the test server`
`06:06.38`	`Tem`	`there is no queue`
`06:06.51`	`Tem`	`but when you get in game, everything takes 1-2 seconds to do`
`06:07.01`	`Tem`	`(with 150ish ms latency)`
`06:07.06`	`Cairenn`	`=/`
`06:08.25`	`Tem`	`oh wow`
`06:08.29`	`Tem`	`there are 6 AV instances up`
`06:09.00`	`Tem`	`26 WSG`
`06:09.44`	`Tem`	`and 30 AB instances`
`06:09.59`	`Tem`	`they must have just turned off the cap all together`
`06:10.38`	`Cairenn`	`well, they did say they wanted to really push this new hardware, to see how it would hold up ...`
`06:10.50`	`Cairenn`	`so it would make sense for them to turn off the cap`
`06:10.59`	`Cairenn`	`(if that's what they did)`
`06:11.33`	`Tem`	`holy crap`
`06:11.39`	`Tem`	`I didn't scroll down far enough`
`06:11.46`	`Tem`	`there are actually 50 WSG instances up`
`06:11.52`	`Cairenn`	`sheesh`
`06:27.33`	`Cairenn`	`I'd love to figure out the physics that allow a cat to place what seems to be about 10 x their body weight on a single paw, the one that is planted on the most tender portion of your anatomy that they can manage to find`
`06:27.52`	`Tem`	`?`
`06:28.17`	`Cairenn`	`my cat just jumped into my lap ...`
`06:34.14`	`Tem`	`oh see I read that wrong`
`06:34.38`	`Tem`	`now I understand what you were saying`
`06:34.41`	`Tem`	`and, lol`
`06:34.56`	`Cairenn`	`darn cat`
`07:10.07`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot (n=esnickel@ip-66-80-2-118.dsl.sca.megapath.net)`
`07:10.17`	`Qzot`	`Evening.`
`07:10.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@rhhe10-109.2wcm.comporium.net)`
`07:10.39`	`Cairenn`	`hey Qzot`
`07:19.21`	`Ktron`	`Anyone feel like talking about a wild idea for a fairly massive addition to World of Warcraft?`
`07:19.45`	`Cairenn`	`what's up Ktron?`
`07:20.19`	`Ktron`	`I like trying to come up with things they could add to the game that would make World of Warcraft a much 'better' game, at least in my eyes`
`07:20.31`	`Cairenn`	`nod`
`07:20.37`	`Cairenn`	`and the idea?`
`07:21.34`	`Qzot`	`Simple improvement: Just rename it to "Qzot's World of Warcraft". Major improvement, just with that.`
`07:21.54`	`Ktron`	`lol`
`07:21.56`	`Ktron`	`alright, here goes`
`07:22.54`	`Qzot`	`Seriously, the fact that I RP'd Qzot as a cough bit of an ass -- rude, overbearing, but innocuous -- is having rather an unfortunate side effect in choosing that name as my addon pen name. :P`
`07:25.19`	`Ktron`	`We introduce Creep Characters (I'll refer the current ones as 'player characters' or PCs)... Suggestions for actual races are naga, gnolls, makura, murlocs, quillboars, and troggs. I'm not sure how maximum number of CCs and PCs should work, but I here's more description of mechanics...`
`07:27.14`	`Ktron`	`CCs will be limited to a maximum level of say 20. I'm not sure if we'll let them into instances, perhaps not. CCs will follow PvP rules like PCs, but with one change-- CCs can always attack other CCs`
`07:28.43`	`Ktron`	`Each will only need a village or two of trainers/vendors, and they'll all start unfriendly with each other, however they can build reputation with each other by killing other ones... Say, you kill gnolls to gain quillboar rep (and lose gnoll rep), etc`
`07:29.26`	`Ktron`	`PCs don't interact with the CCs reps/vendors/trainers`
`07:29.53`	`Cairenn`	`unh, how are you proposing we do this? you're basically wanting to interject a whole subset of the game within the game? that'd require Blizz cooperation/adaptation/adoption`
`07:30.16`	`Ktron`	`Oh I know, I'm not talking about something I could do, like a massive suggestion for blizzard`
`07:30.18`	`Qzot`	`That was his starting assumption. Changing the game.`
`07:30.26`	`Ktron`	`a expansion or major patch`
`07:30.30`	`Cairenn`	`ah, okay`
`07:30.41`	`Cairenn`	`so ideas to pitch to Blizz, then`
`07:30.48`	`Cairenn`	`yes?`
`07:30.49`	`Ktron`	`Maybe a mild number of quests per race`
`07:30.57`	`Qzot`	`Lots of luck, btw. But it's fun to think about.`
`07:31.04`	`Ktron`	`yeah, an idea to pitch to Blizzard perhaps`
`07:31.23`	`Ktron`	`I was looking for reactions first`
`07:31.32`	`Cairenn`	`><`
`07:31.38`	`Ktron`	`for example, if everyone here thought it was a horrible idea, I'd think twice`
`07:32.34`	`Qzot`	`Hmm. If I can speak freely...`
`07:32.55`	`Ktron`	`heh, I think the last part of the pitch would be suggesting that blizzard allows a free 'demo' version of WoW to be released that lets a player have like 1 creep character or such`
`07:33.09`	`Cairenn`	`so what's the difference between a creep and an NPC?`
`07:33.11`	`Qzot`	`I think thinking about the game is wonderful. In real terms, any change to the game mechanics is something Blizz is prolly not open to hearing, esp any major change.`
`07:33.49`	`Ktron`	`Qzot; I know, but whichever, it's fun to think, and interesting to think, and interesting to consider for future games perhaps`
`07:34.08`	`Qzot`	`Definitely.`
`07:34.28`	`Ktron`	`Cairenn; Creep Characters are played by players`
`07:34.37`	`Qzot`	`As long as everyone realizes exactly how likely implementation is, I'm happy to shoot the breeze.`
`07:34.39`	`Ktron`	`to me, creep and npc are the same`
`07:35.10`	`AnduinLothar`	`Happy birthday to Karl, happy birthday to Karl!`
`07:35.31`	`Ktron`	`creep generally implies 'for killing' to some degree I suppose, while npc might suggest more for 'rp' or such, but I don't think there's a real distinction`
`07:35.34`	`Ktron`	`heh, enjoy AnduinLothar`
`07:35.37`	`Cairenn`	`happy birthday AnduinLothar!`
`07:36.01`	`Qzot`	`Happy bday, Karl.`
`07:36.30`	`Cairenn`	`okay, you're confusing me here ... on the one hand, you are saying that CCs are the same as NPCs, but on the other, you are saying that CCs are played by PCs`
`07:36.43`	`Ktron`	`heh, CC is 'Creep Character' not 'Creep'`
`07:37.05`	`Qzot`	`I think the Ktron is proposing low-level mobs-turned-into-PCs.`
`07:37.16`	`Ktron`	`Something like what Qzot said.`
`07:37.27`	`AnduinLothar`	`cc is crowd control, stop making up new acronyms`
`07:37.32`	`Ktron`	`lol`
`07:37.52`	`Qzot`	`I thought 'CC' was 'Change Category' when filling out a bug report.`
`07:38.06`	`AnduinLothar`	`O.o`
`07:38.54`	`Qzot`	`Okay, I listened to your idea. And I was almost polite about it. Now you have to listen to mine. :D`
`07:39.01`	`AnduinLothar`	`bah, no one around to get drunk with..`
`07:39.15`	`Cairenn`	`Qzot`
`07:39.36`	`Qzot`	`Yes?`
`07:40.01`	`Qzot`	`I told you, picking Qzot as my pen name turns me into quite an imp.`
`07:40.05`	`Ktron`	`Summarizing again... Add another selection of special races (see above or ask for my suggested list) for players to choose to play. These races are limited to a max level of 20, only have 2-3 villages, and probably have a reduced possibility of classes. These races have very few quests, and can always attack other players playing these races. Further, they gain reputation by killing these races.`
`07:40.29`	`Ktron`	`Sure Qzot`
`07:40.33`	`Qzot`	`How does it interact with the regular PCs?`
`07:40.35`	`Cairenn`	`you aren't currently RPing as a "bit of an ass -- rude, overbearing, but innocuous"`
`07:40.42`	`Cairenn`	`so don't`
`07:41.01`	`Qzot`	`I know. I just keep hearing Q's voice in my head.`
`07:41.12`	`Ktron`	`Qzot; just like how they'd normally interact with other PCs`
`07:41.32`	`Qzot`	`Pretty much open PvP?`
`07:41.43`	`Ktron`	`No, just like they would depending on the server type`
`07:42.09`	`Qzot`	`Would they have to pretend to ignore normal PCs until they got within agro range?`
`07:42.29`	`Qzot`	`And not notice what was going on 15 yards away?`
`07:42.37`	`Ktron`	`no`
`07:43.19`	`Qzot`	`But it's kinda like 10 factions instead of two, right? They start out unfriendly with everybody.`
`07:43.32`	`Ktron`	`I think they'd just be permanently flagged PvP, so a PC could attack a sPC (special player characters) but it would turn on his PvP flag, and an sPC can attack a PC with their PvP flag on`
`07:44.32`	`Qzot`	`Hmm. Might be more interesting if you thought of the PvP flag as a PvP-against-certain-factions flag.`
`07:44.38`	`Ktron`	`yeah, lots of factions, probably paired off so you can be friendly with 3 or them and at war with 3 of them, or at war with more but not friendly with all of them`
`07:45.01`	`Ktron`	`ie, you kill naga to get murloc rep, kill murlocs to get naga rep, for example... I'm not sure if that pairing would make sense or not`
`07:45.15`	`Qzot`	`And killing NPCs of a certain type would flag you for that type, so that if you're grinding murlocs in the wetlands, an SPC murloc could defend his 'brethren'.`
`07:45.18`	`Ktron`	`a PvP-against-certain-factions flag would be interesting`
`07:45.44`	`Ktron`	`Qzot, well, currently all SPCs can attack all SPCs`
`07:45.59`	`Ktron`	`well, maybe not SPCs of the same race`
`07:46.14`	`Ktron`	`no, I take that back, let all SPCs attack all SPCs`
`07:46.26`	`Ktron`	`they'd have to learn to get along :)`
`07:46.32`	`Qzot`	`That leads to griefing problems.`
`07:47.08`	`Ktron`	`maybe letting SPCS of the same race never attack each other makes sense`
`07:47.19`	`Qzot`	`Actually, the problem is deeper.`
`07:47.20`	`Ktron`	`I'm not set in thinking it should be one way or another`
`07:47.45`	`Ktron`	`what are you worried about Qzot?`
`07:47.56`	`Qzot`	`If you can gain or lose rep with other factions, and two SPCs of different factions meet, whose reputation with the other faction takes precedence?`
`07:49.01`	`Ktron`	`what do you mean 'takes precendence'?`
`07:49.49`	`Qzot`	`Does faction only affect an SPC's relationship with mobs, or does it also affect an SPC's relationship with other SPCs?`
`07:50.23`	`Ktron`	`both`
`07:50.32`	`Ktron`	`well`
`07:50.32`	`Ktron`	`no`
`07:50.36`	`Ktron`	`well`
`07:50.37`	`Ktron`	`yeah, both`
`07:50.42`	`Qzot`	`Hehe. You're beginning to see the problem, I think.`
`07:50.45`	`Ktron`	`yeah`
`07:50.47`	`Ktron`	`I do`
`07:50.55`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Crispix (n=Crispy@c-24-7-241-103.hsd1.in.comcast.net)`
`07:51.16`	`Ktron`	`If one SPC is at war with a race and an SPC of that race is friendly with the race of the first SPC, are they hostile or not`
`07:51.19`	`Ktron`	`hm...`
`07:51.41`	`Qzot`	`Yes. You see the problem.`
`07:51.47`	`Ktron`	`Actually, it's not a problem`
`07:51.55`	`Ktron`	`they all can attack each other if they're different races`
`07:52.21`	`Qzot`	`So that answers my previous question: Faction only affects your relationship with mobs.`
`07:52.43`	`Ktron`	`yep, even if you're friendly with murlocs, for example, you can attack murloc players, but it will lower your murloc rep`
`07:53.06`	`Ktron`	`More signficantly than killing NPC murlocs too, I imagine`
`07:54.11`	`Ktron`	`Last little tidbit I forgot`
`07:55.28`	`Ktron`	`I'm thinking, if the max level is 20, perhaps at 12/16/20 every SPC gets a rank of recruit, that lets you basically make pets out of 1/2/3 of a race you're honored with and higher level than or something like that`
`07:55.57`	`Ktron`	`maybe a few levels lower than even`
`07:56.01`	`Ktron`	`maybe 3?`
`07:56.20`	`Ktron`	`So you can have your own little guard or such`
`07:56.43`	`Ktron`	`they'd work together, so just one pet bar, no need ot make it confusing with having a pet bar each`
`07:57.18`	`Ktron`	`I'm not sure if we'd need special classes for SPCs too, maybe/maybe not`
`07:58.27`	`Ktron`	`One of my friends suggested that he was worried about people getting ganked by groups of murlocs in stonetalon or such`
`07:58.50`	`Ktron`	`maybe we'd have to lower the max level to like 16 if we thought that'd be a problem`
`07:59.28`	`Ktron`	`but since they can't get above 20, I think the horde and the alliance would be more than capable of keeping the SPCs from getting to be too much of a problem`
`07:59.28`	`Qzot`	`Or a fatigue bar if you travel outside the racial village too far.`
`07:59.44`	`Ktron`	`nah, I want them to be able to roam`
`08:00.08`	`Ktron`	`especially if they'd be loosely a 'demo race' type thing, because you want to let people see the world`
`08:00.33`	`Ktron`	`plus, there's very few zones that players would be marked PvP (ie the SPCs could attack players)`
`08:00.39`	`Ktron`	`that aren't above 20`
`08:00.57`	`Ktron`	`parts of redridge, parts of stonetalon, a tiny bit of ashenvale`
`08:01.23`	`Ktron`	`... not much else that SPCs at 20 could hold their own in easily`
`08:01.41`	`Ktron`	`I think I named them all anyway`
`08:02.06`	`Ktron`	`Nearly of the Wetlands and Hillsbrad are too high`
`08:02.18`	`Ktron`	`and certainly all the other zones are`
`08:03.17`	`Ktron`	`I'd hope for SPCs to clash a lot amongst themselves and a little bit with lower level players`
`08:09.02`	`Ktron`	`Almost a minigame within World of Warcraft that should be able to barely stand on their own, and should give casual players a new thing to do and people characters to play with, and of course, a way to satisfy a desire to play a murloc or your other favorite race`
`08:39.48`	`Cairenn`	`night guys`
`08:41.35`	`Qzot`	`gn`
`09:39.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`09:43.18`	`Shouryuu`	`arghhh my brother is driving me crazy with his 40gigs of mac Gyver`
`09:44.12`	`Crispix`	`Cairenn's best response ever: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3974`
`09:46.26`	`Shouryuu`	`I can't even get it to load that dumb download is eating my bandwidth`
`09:49.09`	`Shouryuu`	`lol`
`09:58.56`	`Wobin_`	`Anyone know what the framename for the quest list is?`
`09:59.06`	`Wobin_`	`the one where you can put a count of what stuff you have left to do on a quest`
`10:47.30`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge SP\|Sorren (n=email@adsl-63-204-73-249.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)`
`11:08.04`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Elkano (n=elkano@ip-213-135-2-160.handshake.de)`
`11:28.57`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge duke\|ib (i=dukeku@c-67-160-162-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)`
`11:39.53`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge duke\|ib (i=dukeku@c-67-160-162-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)`
`12:00.48`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Codayus (n=cody@chaos.net.nz)`
`13:17.57`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide (i=Cide@81-226-233-5-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`13:25.06`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Crispix (n=Crispy@c-24-7-241-103.hsd1.in.comcast.net)`
`13:56.29`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge wereHamster (n=tomc@gw.ptr-62-65-141-13.customer.ch.netstream.com)`
`14:11.18`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`14:16.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge qwxyr (i=qw@201.80-202-198.nextgentel.com)`
`14:25.06`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge [MoonWolf] (n=moonwolf@f176182.upc-f.chello.nl)`
`14:51.41`	`JoshBorke`	`( Wobin_ ): i think it is QuestLogFrame.xml`
`14:53.03`	`Wobin_`	`wow`
`14:53.05`	`Wobin_`	`ta =)`
`15:01.15`	`Wobin_`	`Aha`
`15:01.18`	`Wobin_`	`QuestWatchFrame =)`
`15:42.34`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge wereHamster (n=tomc@gw.ptr-62-65-141-13.customer.ch.netstream.com)`
`16:09.45`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`16:11.34`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge krka (n=krka@c80-216-103-22.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`16:27.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ratbert_CP (n=KCummins@c-24-130-132-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)`
`16:34.04`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge krka (n=krka@c80-216-103-22.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`16:35.53`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge krka (n=krka@c80-216-103-22.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`16:37.26`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge elema (n=ele_ma@p548AF081.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`16:40.13`	`elema`	`hy guys`
`16:40.22`	`Cairenn`	`hey elema`
`16:40.48`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide (i=Cide@81-226-233-5-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`16:43.40`	`elema`	`does /n start a new line in a string ?`
`16:44.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Maldivia (n=the_real@62.61.134.59.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk)`
`16:44.56`	`Maldivia`	`Cide ?`
`16:47.16`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Parak (n=profi@user-0cev737.cable.mindspring.com)`
`16:48.38`	`elema`	`so ?`
`16:57.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`17:02.39`	`elema`	`does no one knows this ?`
`17:02.55`	`Maldivia`	`which?`
`17:07.15`	`elema`	`"/n"`
`17:07.23`	`elema`	`what does this do in a string`
`17:07.33`	`elema`	`does it start a new line ?`
`17:07.48`	`[MoonWolf]`	`nope`
`17:07.55`	`[MoonWolf]`	`that was removed it think.`
`17:08.03`	`[MoonWolf]`	`s/it/i/`
`17:08.40`	`elema`	`hmm, so how can I do it now ?`
`17:08.40`	`Maldivia`	`\n normally newline`
`17:08.48`	`elema`	`really?`
`17:08.59`	`Maldivia`	`where do you want to use it ?`
`17:09.04`	`[MoonWolf]`	`i get the slashes confused all the time.`
`17:09.12`	`Shouryuu`	`hasn't any ability to make a newline been removed?`
`17:09.34`	`[MoonWolf]`	`i think so`
`17:09.35`	`Shouryuu`	`except in tooltips`
`17:09.47`	`elema`	`I wanna create a large helptext with only one fontstring element`
`17:09.49`	`[MoonWolf]`	`it allowed spoofing /random lines.`
`17:09.55`	`Shouryuu`	`yeah`
`17:10.01`	`Shouryuu`	`faking server messages`
`17:10.24`	`Maldivia`	`well, \n has always been disallowed in SendChatMessage`
`17:10.34`	`Maldivia`	`except for the bug in item-links, that's been fixed`
`17:10.41`	`elema`	`I just want to use it for a fontstring`
`17:10.51`	`elema`	`does it there worj ?`
`17:10.54`	`Shouryuu`	`In a fontstring there's a way but it's weird`
`17:10.54`	`elema`	`work`
`17:11.00`	`elema`	`so how?`
`17:11.07`	`Shouryuu`	`I don't know it, but I think it's really crooked`
`17:11.50`	`elema`	`I thought, that it would maybe work with tables`
`17:12.14`	`elema`	`like settex:(table); table = { textone, texttwo, textthree };`
`17:12.34`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge wereHamster (n=tomc@gw.ptr-62-65-141-13.customer.ch.netstream.com)`
`17:12.50`	`Shouryuu`	`actualy \n should work with fontstrings`
`17:13.02`	`elema`	`great`
`17:13.20`	`Shouryuu`	`At worst you'll get d/ced when you try anyways :P`
`17:13.36`	`elema`	`;)`
`17:14.19`	`elema`	`does anyone know a good tutorial for context menues (like the ones of the chatframe) (the right click menues)`
`17:14.23`	`Maldivia`	`\n shouldn't disconnect you, unless you're trying to send it`
`17:15.32`	`Maldivia`	`Just tried a: /script ChatFrame1:AddMessage("Test\nTest"); worked fine (game me two lines)`
`17:15.41`	`Maldivia`	`gave*`
`17:17.54`	`Shouryuu`	`yeah`
`17:18.16`	`Shouryuu`	`it must have been disable in SendChatMessage then, you were right :P`
`17:19.16`	`Maldivia`	`Well, it's been disabled in SendChatMessage since release, or so`
`17:19.26`	`Maldivia`	`except for the little bug :)`
`17:20.50`	`Shouryuu`	`which I don't know of`
`17:22.11`	`Maldivia`	`the item link bug... which should be fixed`
`17:22.19`	`Shouryuu`	`ah`
`17:22.53`	`Shouryuu`	`I want to know how that worked`
`17:23.08`	`Maldivia`	`I'll tell you, when 1.10 is released :)`
`17:23.10`	`Shouryuu`	`but I guess I'll wait till 1.10 goes live before asking around :P`
`17:23.35`	`Cide`	`Maldivia: here now`
`17:24.01`	`Maldivia`	`Cide: you're using CameraOrSelectOrMove to detect casts in your ressurection monitor, right?`
`17:24.10`	`Cide`	`yeah, I have been`
`17:24.21`	`Maldivia`	`Cide: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-interface-customization&t=335196&p=1&tmp=1#post335196`
`17:25.59`	`Cide`	`yeah, I just saw that as well :) I was happy`
`17:26.25`	`Maldivia`	`well, just posted it 10 minutes ago :)`
`17:26.47`	`krka`	`is 1.10 released yet?`
`17:26.51`	`Maldivia`	`nope`
`17:27.16`	`Maldivia`	`Cide: hopefully they wont restrict it`
`17:27.34`	`Cide`	`yeah`
`17:27.37`	`Cide`	`I don't think they will`
`17:27.45`	`Cide`	`they only wanted us not to hook movement functions`
`17:27.51`	`Shouryuu`	`well if you can't hook it to "auto"cast anything it should be fine`
`17:27.53`	`Shouryuu`	`aye`
`17:28.04`	`Maldivia`	`MouseDown/Up is not a hardware event`
`17:28.11`	`Shouryuu`	`yeah I read your thread :P`
`17:28.16`	`Maldivia`	`:)`
`17:28.52`	`Maldivia`	`I wasn't even aware that you could register the scripts on WorldFrame, before I tried...`
`17:28.52`	`Cide`	`nice idea & find, by the way :)`
`17:29.07`	`Maldivia`	`first I tried UIParent, but then the world frame didn't got the events`
`17:36.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge elema (n=ele_ma@p548AF081.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`17:38.04`	`elema`	`hello back`
`17:41.18`	`elema`	`again my question: does anyone know a GOOD tutorial for context menues ( like the menu of the chatframe, the right click menu)`
`17:45.32`	`Shouryuu`	`there aren't really any`
`17:45.38`	`Shouryuu`	`at least to my knowledge`
`17:46.15`	`Wobin_`	`BossPanel has got that sort of thing working for it...`
`17:47.30`	`Shouryuu`	`yeah you're best bet is to just dissect other addons..`
`18:00.38`	`Maldivia`	`Uhh... you can say \n now !`
`18:00.48`	`Maldivia`	`and it just shows up as \n :\|`
`18:01.02`	`Maldivia`	`Bugger, there goes my quick disconenct`
`18:01.07`	`Shouryuu`	`lol`
`18:01.26`	`Maldivia`	`\n is so much faster to write than /quit :)`
`18:02.22`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot (n=esnickel@ip-66-80-2-118.dsl.sca.megapath.net)`
`18:02.39`	`Qzot`	`I be here.`
`18:03.07`	`Maldivia`	`you sure are?`
`18:07.36`	`Qzot`	`Typito, ergo sum.`
`18:07.50`	`Qzot`	`Yah, that convinces even me.`
`18:10.27`	`Maldivia`	`hehe`
`18:18.45`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cairenn (n=Cairenn@CPE001217452e29-CM014500004571.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`18:18.46`	`*** mode/#WoWI-lounge [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ`
`18:29.02`	`Tain`	`I'm sitting in an actual computer chair with my keyboard and monitor on an actual surface other than plastic storage bins.`
`18:32.28`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Parakie (n=profi@user-0cev737.cable.mindspring.com)`
`18:39.42`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide- (i=Cide@81-226-233-5-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`18:58.26`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ForgottenLords (n=Forgotte@059.216-123-195-0.interbaun.com)`
`19:04.59`	`Ktron`	`afternoon everyone`
`19:22.24`	`Qzot`	`Good morning.`
`19:27.12`	`Shouryuu`	`good evening`
`19:29.34`	`Qzot`	`Grr. I want Blizz to implement an Elixir of Cowardice.`
`19:29.51`	`[MoonWolf]`	`does what ?`
`19:30.22`	`Qzot`	`The imbiber get about 20 minutes of following normal server rules for PvP flagging, rather than PvP server rules.`
`19:31.26`	`krka`	`what for?`
`19:31.44`	`Qzot`	`Just to eliminate the worst 5% of ganking.`
`19:31.52`	`Qzot`	`On PvP servers.`
`19:32.52`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Iriel (n=daniel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)`
`19:33.00`	`Shadowd`	`Why would you roll on a PVP server if you didn't expect to get corpse camped over and over and over?`
`19:33.04`	`Qzot`	`I hate spending an hour to finish a quest that would take me 5 minutes on a PvE server.`
`19:33.23`	`Qzot`	`Because I'm a member of a great guild that chose PvP for reasons that complete escape me.`
`19:33.34`	`Shadowd`	`Thats why you bribe friends to follow you around 24/7 to protect you`
`19:33.51`	`Qzot`	`"Bribe friends". That has to be a classic line.`
`19:33.55`	`Iriel`	`Morning`
`19:34.02`	`Qzot`	`Morning, Iriel.`
`19:34.06`	`Shadowd`	`morning Iriel`
`19:34.16`	`[MoonWolf]`	`top o the morning to ya Iriel`
`19:35.18`	`Qzot`	`Actually, there's another solution: To the extent that the ganking is by people who get no HKs from killing you, increase your ghost run speed, and your rez radius.`
`19:36.12`	`Shadowd`	`Really don't think there needs to be a solution, you choose to roll on a PvP server, and you should have known that you would be camped and such`
`19:36.59`	`[MoonWolf]`	`shadowd you expect that you might be attacked, but you do not expect and should not have to that you will be griefed and corpsecamped into getting sick of playing to game for a day.`
`19:37.24`	`Qzot`	`As I said, it's the top 5% that gets my goat. I'm as willing as the next guy to see an opportunity to take someone down. But having a level 60 camp a level 35 for an hour is silly.`
`19:37.33`	`[MoonWolf]`	`that happend to me more then once.`
`19:37.49`	`Iriel`	`I dont think corpse camping is 'acceptable behaviour' period, PvP is about challenge and danger, not about antisocial tendencies and futility.`
`19:37.52`	`Shadowd`	`I expect that theres a lot of assholes and people who enjoy making others lives suck and that I should never expect something to be followed honestly (IE not corpse camping)`
`19:38.14`	`Shadowd`	`Hence why i've yet rolled on a PvP server.`
`19:38.15`	`Qzot`	`I was in a scheduled instance group -- low 40s -- and a group of 4x 60s made it their goal to keep us from getting through the portal for over an hour.`
`19:39.05`	`Qzot`	`Even tho I'm not one of the guildmates in favor of being on a PvP server, I've enjoyed a lot of the open people. But the worst instance far away the best.`
`19:39.06`	`Miravlix`	`How was that possible?`
`19:39.24`	`Qzot`	`Their hunter set freeze traps in front of the instance portal.`
`19:39.39`	`Miravlix`	`Should still be able to zone in`
`19:39.50`	`Shadowd`	`hunter = one trap, if you have 5 of them then I don't see how the other 5 didn't get in`
`19:39.52`	`Miravlix`	`Before you die`
`19:40.04`	`Shadowd`	`err other 4`
`19:40.32`	`Miravlix`	`Besides a full instance team can still kill 60's and make it hell for them`
`19:40.36`	`Qzot`	`If we hit the freeze trap, we died. We eventually got in by using the edges of the instance portal. He couldn't cover it 100%.`
`19:40.48`	`Miravlix`	`I could understand 60's camping The Deadmines or something lowbieish`
`19:41.03`	`Qzot`	`Yeah, but 4x 60 vs 5x 42 is no match.`
`19:41.17`	`Qzot`	`And our agro radius for the nearby mobs didn't help.`
`19:41.27`	`Miravlix`	`Yes it is`
`19:41.43`	`Shadowd`	`that makes no sense still, you're saying that 5 x 42 couldn't get into an instance with one freezing trap set by a hunter?`
`19:41.45`	`Miravlix`	`But if your on a pvp server without the ability to pvp it's hopeless`
`19:41.51`	`Shadowd`	`Or did they have entrapment and that procced.`
`19:42.33`	`Miravlix`	`I've killed 60's from I was level 20`
`19:42.46`	`Qzot`	`Mir, believe me. We did make it in. But with each successive member getting in, we had a 5 minute run back from the GY, and worse odds for the remaining members.`
`19:42.51`	`Miravlix`	`It's not like fighting a 60 mob`
`19:43.01`	`Qzot`	`Yes, I'm completely aware of that.`
`19:43.32`	`Qzot`	`And altho I would guess that I'm below average in PvP (I wasn't pulling for being on this server, remember), I've learned a lot.`
`19:44.38`	`Maldivia`	`yawn`
`19:45.26`	`Iriel`	`Miravlix : I'm sure when you're level 60 you wont expect level 20's to take you out constantly.`
`19:45.30`	`Qzot`	`I bow to you, the PvP Master.`
`19:46.21`	`Iriel`	`Miravlix : So i'm not sure that your statement holds much argumentative power in terms of making Qzot's situation any less frustrating or impassable. Sure, if it'd been a group of completely retarded L60's perhaps, but I suspect we can assume they knew what they were doing`
`19:47.23`	`Miravlix`	`I�ve been level 60 for 6+ months on a pvp server`
`19:47.41`	`Miravlix`	`Releveling on a RP-PVP server though so reliving not being 60 again`
`19:48.22`	`Qzot`	`I would warn against drawing comparisons between PVP and RPPVP servers...`
`19:48.30`	`Miravlix`	`Why?`
`19:48.39`	`Miravlix`	`RP-PVP is worse ganking than PvP`
`19:48.51`	`Miravlix`	`Because on RP there is no levels!`
`19:49.07`	`Shadowd`	`?`
`19:49.10`	`Qzot`	`I don't understand that last statement.`
`19:49.11`	`Iriel`	`?`
`19:49.19`	`[MoonWolf]`	`Miravlix, that doesnt mean you cannot see the difference between equipment`
`19:49.46`	`[MoonWolf]`	`and you really should consider the player behind the char in cases like that..`
`19:49.53`	`Qzot`	`Has Blizz implement level hiding for RP/RPPVP servers? I've been off an RP server for a while.`
`19:50.09`	`[MoonWolf]`	`qzot no, but your character doesnt know what a lvl is`
`19:50.28`	`Iriel`	`No, RP-PvP is a standard PvP realm, with RP rules added via ToS, no functional difference`
`19:50.29`	`[MoonWolf]`	`or xp or defense ratings or any of those things.`
`19:50.41`	`Iriel`	`Yes, but your character does understand relative apparent skill`
`19:50.48`	`Qzot`	`Have you actually found an RPPVP server where a significant amount of RP is going on? Where even 5% of players RP?`
`19:51.04`	`[MoonWolf]`	`Iriel, what i wast trying to point our.`
`19:51.05`	`Iriel`	`If you're a mighty warrior you can still identify someone you could crush, entirely in character`
`19:51.16`	`Miravlix`	`I'm not here to argue with stupidity that exist as an excuse on RP-PVP server to gank anyone`
`19:51.31`	`[MoonWolf]`	`qzot, rp is mostly limited to guild events and meetings.`
`19:51.38`	`[MoonWolf]`	`and some of it happening in random places`
`19:51.40`	`Miravlix`	`I just know that the ganking is 100 times worse than on PvP servers`
`19:51.49`	`[MoonWolf]`	`if you look for others rping you most likely will not fine it.`
`19:52.12`	`[MoonWolf]`	`intead you should initiate it yourself.`
`19:52.32`	`Iriel`	`Hm, I think I may have found my first 1.10 bug.`
`19:52.39`	`[MoonWolf]`	`please tell.`
`19:52.53`	`Qzot`	`My own experience in a number of guilds on one RP server, is that most guilds did not RP, and most players did not RP. A sizable minority of an RP server is made up of people who expressly choose not to RP, but believe that the maturity level on an RP server is higher.`
`19:53.00`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: uhh?`
`19:53.12`	`Qzot`	`Let's change topics. Iriel's bug sounds much more interesting, imho.`
`19:53.20`	`Shouryuu`	`Do you like poor anime?`
`19:53.21`	`Iriel`	`Slouken appears to have put tests in for recursive tables, but I dont think it works.. Ignore me, this is the first time i've had to play with 1.10 properly since it went up.`
`19:53.31`	`Iriel`	`(In saved variables, that is, sorry)`
`19:53.41`	`Shouryuu`	`Enjoy crap animation, boring dialogues, uninteresting story lines?`
`19:53.52`	`Shouryuu`	`then Trinity Blood is the series to see!`
`19:54.10`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, I've actually never considered having recursive tables as a saved variable... :)`
`19:54.48`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : it doesn't handle it well normally`
`19:54.54`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : But sometimes you can accidently end up with them`
`19:55.06`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: how does 1.10 handle them ?`
`19:55.25`	`Iriel`	`<PROTECTED>`
`19:55.34`	`Iriel`	`Except it does it one level too high for my liking`
`19:55.59`	`Qzot`	`Lol. And he doesn't even generate the code at the end to re-link it for you?? :D`
`19:56.12`	`Maldivia`	`Qzot: ofcourse not`
`19:56.19`	`Qzot`	`It was a joke.`
`19:56.34`	`Iriel`	`8-)`
`19:56.44`	`Iriel`	`I dont mind that part, I mind that Z had some non-recursive elements`
`19:57.01`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: Hmm, as in x.y.z.a = x -- will have z = {--[[ recursive]]} ?`
`19:57.58`	`Iriel`	`Perhaps, I do need to fully investigate, the problem surfaced in a piece of code where I dont generate the table's contents myself, but get it from somewhere else, so it's possible i'm jumping to the wrong conclusion`
`19:58.07`	`Iriel`	`I'll know in a minute when I get a test addon together`
`19:58.08`	`Qzot`	`Seems to me, that slouken is implementing this so the system doesn't break. If he were concerned about restoring to the same state, or getting as much of it as possible, that's when he'd worry about restoring sibs or re-linking.`
`19:58.57`	`Qzot`	`Same could be said of pointers to userdata or functions.`
`19:59.04`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: That is indeed what he's doing`
`19:59.50`	`Qzot`	`Find circular paths is one swift p.i.t.a.`
`20:00.23`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: Saved variables doesn't serialize recursive objects or certain complex ones, but it shouldn't crash.`
`20:00.37`	`Qzot`	`Yup.`
`20:00.59`	`Qzot`	`Hmm.`
`20:01.19`	`krka`	`ooh... recursive tables in saved variables`
`20:01.38`	`krka`	`shouldn't be so hard to implement`
`20:01.58`	`Qzot`	`I bet you could write an addon that allowed you to have circular paths in your saved variables, survive the save, and be patched up correctly at load time.`
`20:02.03`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: Not really when dumping`
`20:02.17`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: And reconstructing is actually quite doable, /dump does it already for display`
`20:03.04`	`Qzot`	`I'd have to think about how to make sure the processing is done in the right order.`
`20:03.19`	`Iriel`	`Well, you know it's read in the same order it's written`
`20:03.36`	`Iriel`	`So you're half way there`
`20:04.00`	`Iriel`	`Having said that, it's NOT possible in the current SV structure`
`20:04.01`	`Qzot`	`But after Client Package C is ready to go to sleep, helper package H comes in, breaks any circular links, and stores enough knowledge to be able to restore them.`
`20:04.09`	`krka`	`since savedvariables is just lua code, why not generate the code that will produce the correct data?`
`20:04.13`	`Iriel`	`because of the way that lua initializers ioerate,'`
`20:04.29`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, have a table, with the table-pointer as index, and the full variable name as value, then check all table variables you meet when you save in that table, and store the variable instead of the table, if it already exists in the table...`
`20:04.31`	`Iriel`	`krka: Exactly, but doing so would break SV's as we know them today`
`20:04.32`	`Qzot`	`Seems possible to me, Iriel. Please explain.`
`20:04.38`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : That's exactly how /dump does it`
`20:04.39`	`krka`	`how?`
`20:04.47`	`krka`	`not really following`
`20:04.56`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: hehe, ok :) Just the simplest method I could think of`
`20:05.00`	`Iriel`	`Consider Y = {}; X = { A = Y, B = Y, C = Y }`
`20:05.13`	`Iriel`	`Now try representing X as a SINGLE initializer`
`20:05.28`	`krka`	`what does single initalizer mean?`
`20:05.33`	`Qzot`	`Just a sec. I'm assuming that Client Package can depend on the Helper package, if needed. It doesn't have to be blind.`
`20:05.54`	`Iriel`	`krka: It means a single X = ... expression`
`20:05.59`	`Iriel`	`krka: I.e. without Y = {}`
`20:06.05`	`krka`	`ah ok`
`20:06.12`	`krka`	`why is that a requirement for SV?`
`20:06.14`	`Qzot`	`Yes, but SV can't generate that kind of conundrum.`
`20:06.21`	`Maldivia`	`I guess X = { A = {}, B = X.A, C = X.A } doesn't work`
`20:06.42`	`Qzot`	`SV breaks everything down to literals.`
`20:06.43`	`Iriel`	`krka: because that's how ALL of the SV's work today`
`20:06.53`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Correct, X doesn't exist until it's fully baked`
`20:07.03`	`krka`	`but why can't that be changed?`
`20:07.07`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: If you could reference in-progress tables it'd be a different matter`
`20:07.11`	`Qzot`	`And I wasn't guaranteeing the same structure, but at least one where the literal forms matched.`
`20:07.18`	`Iriel`	`krka: Because it'd break all the SV's we have today, which was my point`
`20:07.18`	`Maldivia`	`Only way would be: X={} X.A = {} X.B = X.A X.C = X.A`
`20:07.27`	`Iriel`	`It'd break all the non-lua SV tools`
`20:07.34`	`Iriel`	`Like the php ones, etc, there'd be an uproar`
`20:07.36`	`krka`	`ah... true`
`20:07.42`	`krka`	`but that's not really that important`
`20:08.01`	`Maldivia`	`cough just read the SV files with lua, no problem :)`
`20:08.01`	`Qzot`	`Ah. I wasn't planning to make guarantees outside WoW.`
`20:08.17`	`Iriel`	`Plus it's overcomplex, I think if you really NEED to serialize those kinds of structures you should serialize a non-complex representation and reconstitute the original one`
`20:08.27`	`Qzot`	`Well, I wasn't planning the SV for the helper package to be simple patch-up.`
`20:08.27`	`Iriel`	`Which is what QZot was suggesting with the library approach`
`20:08.45`	`krka`	`overcomplex? shouldn't be too hard to implement`
`20:09.08`	`Qzot`	`Here's my first straw man (ignoring OOB SV access):`
`20:09.10`	`krka`	`also, "nice" data would be saved the same way`
`20:09.36`	`Iriel`	`Well, One has to consider that most of the time you try and serialize a recursive structure, it's by accident`
`20:09.41`	`Qzot`	`[1] The helper package does a depth-1st search of the client's saved vars.`
`20:10.03`	`Qzot`	`[2] It keeps all tables found in a hash.`
`20:10.13`	`krka`	`Iriel, yes, but that's only because of that limitation`
`20:10.19`	`Iriel`	`krka: I disagree`
`20:10.29`	`krka`	`without the limitation, i can see plenty of reasons to have recursive data structures`
`20:10.59`	`krka`	`graphs is one example`
`20:11.03`	`Iriel`	`I can think of situations where they're handy`
`20:11.05`	`Qzot`	`[3] If it finds a used table -- indicating a circular path -- it nils out the value, and in its own data structure, keeps enough enough for the path to the original version, and the niled-out one.`
`20:11.17`	`Iriel`	`but most of the time there's a very acceptable non-recursive-table representation`
`20:11.26`	`Qzot`	`Iriel: Agreed.`
`20:11.45`	`krka`	`it's still a limitation that is easily taken care of`
`20:11.56`	`Qzot`	`Iriel: I haven't felt any need for complex data structures. In fact, I try to simplify them as much as possible.`
`20:12.04`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: You can decompose any single table into 2 data structures, 'fragments' and 'assembly instructions'`
`20:12.09`	`Maldivia`	`hmm... saving a double linked list in SV... :)`
`20:12.11`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: Using your kind of logic`
`20:12.19`	`Iriel`	`Qzot; And that'd work perfectly`
`20:12.21`	`krka`	`i was just gonna say linked lists`
`20:12.35`	`Iriel`	`krka: So link by ID and not by reference`
`20:12.48`	`Qzot`	`Well, by path from root.`
`20:12.49`	`Iriel`	`Sure it's an extra lookup, but it's not that onerous`
`20:12.53`	`krka`	`yes, that's how i made the graphs in AutoTravel`
`20:13.10`	`krka`	`should be more memory wasteful though, but i haven't verified that`
`20:13.25`	`Iriel`	`krka; It's not`
`20:13.31`	`Iriel`	`krka: Slower at runtime, slightly`
`20:14.10`	`krka`	`hmm... why isn't it more memory wasteful?`
`20:14.16`	`Iriel`	`(Unless you weren't assigning ID's otherwise, then possibly there's a memory overhead)`
`20:14.39`	`Qzot`	`Frankly, what I would prefer more than slouken's current solution, is no SV stored at all in this case, and a comment in the SV.lua describing the bad link.`
`20:15.05`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: The 'SV standard approach' is to try and create a representative object, with a comment`
`20:15.08`	`Qzot`	`I think I'd prefer no SV to a potentially broken one buried deep in initialization code.`
`20:15.24`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: Love it or hate it, it's at least consistent 8-)`
`20:15.33`	`Qzot`	`Understood. Doesn't mean I have to like it. :D`
`20:15.35`	`krka`	`node1 = {} node2 = {} node1[node2] = weight node2[node1] = weight`
`20:15.40`	`krka`	`or`
`20:15.43`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: The basic underlying 'rule' I think is "make sure you dont put bad stuff in your SV's'`
`20:15.52`	`Qzot`	`Yes.`
`20:16.44`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, how is SVtable[table_refence] = "Something" saved?`
`20:17.10`	`krka`	`edges = {} edges[1] = {} edges[2] = {} edges[1][2] = weight edges[2][1] = weight`
`20:17.28`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: or SVTable[function]?`
`20:17.35`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Same way all non-array table entries are saved`
`20:17.47`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : As a key value pair, with key and value as standard lua 'values'`
`20:18.04`	`Maldivia`	`So: ["table:0x293462"] = "Something"`
`20:18.05`	`Maldivia`	`?`
`20:18.11`	`krka`	`ex1: two tables, two keys, two values ex2: 3 tables, 4 keys, 2 values`
`20:18.11`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : I.e. the { stringreference, double, boolean(C int), object reference } union`
`20:18.37`	`Maldivia`	`Ok`
`20:18.53`	`Iriel`	`krka: were node1 and node2 locals in your first example? How do you find them afterwards?`
`20:19.13`	`krka`	`well, that depends on implementation`
`20:19.34`	`krka`	`only need to remember one node in the best case`
`20:19.36`	`Iriel`	`krka: You're comparing implementations, so you must specify`
`20:19.54`	`Iriel`	`krka: Is that YOUR implementation though, it's important`
`20:20.02`	`krka`	`ok, let's say i have one node stored explicitly in SavedVariables`
`20:20.18`	`krka`	`(all other nodes can be reached from it9`
`20:20.28`	`krka`	`as a bonus side effect, all unreachable nodes are GC`
`20:21.00`	`Iriel`	`krka: Yes, in that case a purely nested table representation is cleaner`
`20:21.14`	`Iriel`	`krka; But you have NO random access to an arbitrary node, you must traverse the tree to it`
`20:21.23`	`krka`	`yes`
`20:21.44`	`krka`	`good or bad, depending on the usage`
`20:22.22`	`Maldivia`	`ups... I crashed WoW`
`20:23.01`	`Iriel`	`Ok, verified slouken did it right, which means something ELSE is breaking my test case 8-(`
`20:23.20`	`krka`	`so, what exactly did slouken fix?`
`20:23.42`	`Iriel`	`It detects attempts to serialize a table which references one of its parents`
`20:23.52`	`krka`	`ah`
`20:23.57`	`Qzot`	`function fcn1() end;function fcn2(...) return arg; end;POX = {};POX[1] = {};POX[1][fcn1] = fcn2;POX[1][fcn2] = 2;POX[1][2] = fcn1;`
`20:24.12`	`Qzot`	`And the result...`
`20:24.13`	`Qzot`	`POX = {`
`20:24.13`	`Qzot`	`[1] = {`
`20:24.13`	`Qzot`	`[fcn2] = 2,`
`20:24.13`	`Qzot`	`[fcn1] = fcn2,`
`20:24.13`	`Qzot`	`[2] = fcn1,`
`20:24.15`	`Qzot`	`},`
`20:24.17`	`Qzot`	`}`
`20:24.29`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: well, I found a bug :)`
`20:24.50`	`Qzot`	`So, that would actually work if the code is already loaded correctly.`
`20:25.01`	`krka`	`Qzot, what was the point of that? :)`
`20:25.11`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: /script t = {} SVtable = {} SVtable[t] = "test" ReloadUI() -- Crash!!`
`20:25.29`	`Qzot`	`Wow.`
`20:25.33`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge wereHamster (n=tomc@gw.ptr-62-65-141-13.customer.ch.netstream.com)`
`20:25.53`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: I'm not sure what that function is demonstrating?`
`20:25.54`	`krka`	`it's fine, l2wtsv`
`20:26.12`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Live, or test?`
`20:26.19`	`Qzot`	`The way that SV deals with function values on the LHS. It kinda works if certain assumptions are being made.`
`20:26.19`	`Maldivia`	`Test`
`20:26.34`	`Qzot`	`The 1st was the ingame calls. The 2nd was the SV.lua for it.`
`20:26.48`	`krka`	`do we know that slouken (or bliz in general) are against producing more complex SV code?`
`20:27.04`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: logging on to live, to test right now :)`
`20:27.06`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Oops 8-) That used to work, because it used to be broken and he fixed it`
`20:27.28`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : It's already in my 'BreakSV' addon 8-)`
`20:27.37`	`krka`	`hmm... you can serialize functions in SV?`
`20:27.43`	`Iriel`	`krka: No`
`20:27.44`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: hehe`
`20:27.50`	`Iriel`	`krka: Or rather, yes, btu you just get a dummy function back`
`20:28.10`	`krka`	`ah`
`20:28.22`	`Maldivia`	`works fine on Live..`
`20:28.29`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : let me duplicate the error and i'll send it to the pirate`
`20:28.34`	`Maldivia`	`OK`
`20:28.49`	`Maldivia`	`then I wont make a post about it, the other way is easier :)`
`20:29.10`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: I get a different result:`
`20:29.20`	`Qzot`	`Luapad code: t1 = {}POX = {};POX[t1] = 2`
`20:29.27`	`Iriel`	`krka: We dont know if slouken is against producing more complex SV code (though the new RegisterForSave behaviour leads me to believe they will be from now on)`
`20:29.29`	`krka`	`i wonder how hard it will be to fix multi-referencing tables serializing in an optimal way`
`20:29.43`	`Iriel`	`krka; However, seeing how he handled tables-as-keys, I believe it's a safe assumption`
`20:29.57`	`Qzot`	`From the SV.lua...`
`20:29.58`	`Qzot`	`POX = {`
`20:29.58`	`Qzot`	`[{`
`20:29.58`	`Qzot`	`}] = 2,`
`20:29.58`	`Qzot`	`}`
`20:30.02`	`Iriel`	`krka: If you're willing to run a pass over the table before saving and after loading, it's not that hard`
`20:30.03`	`krka`	`hmm... i just thought of something`
`20:30.05`	`Maldivia`	`Qzot: on test server ?`
`20:30.10`	`Qzot`	`No. 1.93`
`20:30.17`	`Qzot`	`s/1.93/1.9/`
`20:30.23`	`krka`	`what if savedbychar data interacted with savedperrealm data`
`20:30.27`	`Maldivia`	`Qzot: just said it worked on live, but crashed on test :)`
`20:30.33`	`Iriel`	`Boom, yes`
`20:30.36`	`Qzot`	`Missed that. Sorry.`
`20:30.45`	`krka`	`would be weird with my suggestion :/`
`20:31.04`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: checked if the same problem exists with other "complex" types?`
`20:31.43`	`krka`	`wish we atleast could get a "about to write to SV" event`
`20:31.48`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : I'm about to re-run my BreakSV tests`
`20:31.50`	`Iriel`	`krka; We have one`
`20:31.54`	`Iriel`	`krka; PLAYER_LOGOUT`
`20:31.57`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: with function ?`
`20:31.58`	`krka`	`oh? i totally missed it`
`20:32.02`	`krka`	`ah.. good point`
`20:32.03`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: or userdata?`
`20:32.03`	`krka`	`thanks`
`20:32.18`	`krka`	`then i am fine, can have my graphs at runtime and convert at savetime`
`20:32.33`	`Maldivia`	`no problem with function`
`20:32.33`	`krka`	`ooooh, could write a library function to convert back and forth`
`20:32.38`	`krka`	`that would be fun to do`
`20:33.29`	`Qzot`	`krka: Doesn't PLAYER_LEAVING_WORLD work pretty well for that?`
`20:33.36`	`Maldivia`	`hmm... SVtest[CastSpellByName] = "test" -- produced the following SV file:`
`20:33.37`	`Maldivia`	`= {`
`20:33.37`	`Maldivia`	`[CastSpellByName] = "Test",`
`20:33.37`	`Maldivia`	`}`
`20:33.53`	`Maldivia`	`ups, missed the variable name in that paste :)`
`20:33.57`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: On 1.10 or 1.9?`
`20:34.00`	`Maldivia`	`1.10`
`20:34.08`	`krka`	`how does leaving world differ from player logout?`
`20:34.08`	`Qzot`	`k. Same as 1.9, then.`
`20:34.22`	`krka`	`is leaving world triggered when changing continents or instances?`
`20:34.39`	`Qzot`	`Iriel?`
`20:34.42`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : I haven't actually added userdata to my sript, i'll do that, but I have the others`
`20:34.42`	`Iriel`	`+/- infinity cause problems too`
`20:34.42`	`Iriel`	`krka: you leave then re-enter the world when instance hopping`
`20:34.52`	`Maldivia`	`just tested userdata - no problem`
`20:34.55`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: That's new behaviour then`
`20:35.12`	`krka`	`hmm... that would also trigger a reloadUI, so better to use that`
`20:35.13`	`Qzot`	`That's what my first test was about.`
`20:35.20`	`Maldivia`	`or well, userdata created an error when loading the SV file`
`20:35.47`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : That doesn't count then, breaksv started out that way 8-) I'll add it`
`20:35.47`	`Maldivia`	`SVtest[UIParent[0]] = "test" =>> [nil --[[ ]]] = "test",`
`20:36.15`	`Qzot`	`krka: My trick has been to keep the data-in-use in a table separate from SV, but on PLAYER_LEAVING_WORLD I crunch a saved formed. I hadn't realized it was being triggered by instance-hopping, but I haven't had problems with it.`
`20:36.21`	`krka`	`ooh... could even clear out the actual saved variable after it's been converted... save a bit of memory`
`20:36.37`	`Maldivia`	`meaning you'll get a "table index is nil" error, when reloading - probably leaving the entire table uninitialized`
`20:36.47`	`krka`	`Qzot, yeah, that was my plan too`
`20:36.57`	`Maldivia`	`yep, my saved var is nil`
`20:37.04`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : I'll add it to the report 8-)`
`20:37.30`	`Maldivia`	`:)`
`20:37.49`	`Iriel`	`infinite numeric keys break also`
`20:37.51`	`krka`	`hmm... you can't use nil-values for keys, right?`
`20:38.04`	`Iriel`	`right`
`20:38.04`	`Qzot`	`krka: right.`
`20:38.28`	`Qzot`	`You can even really use nil values as values. :P`
`20:39.41`	`Qzot`	`I'm pretty sure t={1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}; t[3]=nil; for i,v in ipairs(t) ... will only iterate 2 values.`
`20:39.43`	`Maldivia`	`Qzot: well, not really :)`
`20:40.06`	`Tain`	`That's correct, Qzot.`
`20:40.29`	`krka`	`right... so just use t directly :P`
`20:40.45`	`Iriel`	`nil 'values' aren't values`
`20:40.50`	`Qzot`	`Well, maybe that was a bad example.`
`20:40.56`	`Qzot`	`There are 2 things going on.`
`20:41.00`	`Iriel`	`(Though they actually Do get stored as nil values, sorta, sometimes)`
`20:41.12`	`Maldivia`	`ipairs check for consecutive integer values`
`20:41.13`	`Qzot`	`(1) mumble = nil is syntactic sugar for 'delete mumble'`
`20:41.14`	`Tain`	`Yeah, when they're defined as TITAN_NIL. ;)`
`20:41.15`	`Iriel`	`half of the 'array' funtions would iterate that`
`20:41.19`	`Iriel`	`half of them wouldnt`
`20:41.36`	`Qzot`	`(2) and a bunch of the language takes nil as a non-value, such as for loops`
`20:41.38`	`Tain`	`In that case of ipairs() it wouldn't. pairs() would.`
`20:42.42`	`Maldivia`	`uhh, SVtest[PI] = "test" -- saved with enough precision, that /dump SVtest[PI] actually writes test, after a reload`
`20:42.43`	`Qzot`	`Tain: yup. I chose ipairs on purpose, and then realized it was case (2), not case (1).`
`20:43.43`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : It writes full precision (it didn't used to)`
`20:43.49`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : (But that got fixed quite a while back)`
`20:44.05`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: yeah, previously I was saving all my floating point numbers as strings :)`
`20:44.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Miravlix (i=dragon@0x3e42aafc.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`20:44.21`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: or well, actually all my numbers :)`
`20:44.30`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Miravlix (i=dragon@0x3e42aafc.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`20:44.38`	`krka`	`oooooh! full precision`
`20:44.44`	`krka`	`that was not the case pre 1.5 i think`
`20:44.50`	`krka`	`or pre 1.6 maybe`
`20:45.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Miravlix (i=dragon@0x3e42aafc.adsl.cybercity.dk)`
`20:45.33`	`krka`	`is it possible write an exact represtation of a float in text-form though?`
`20:45.42`	`Iriel`	`krka: sure`
`20:45.55`	`Iriel`	`krka: You just have to write enough such that when it's re-read it comes out to the same bit value`
`20:46.01`	`krka`	`hmm... maybe it was the other way around that can't be done`
`20:46.26`	`krka`	`base 10 -> base 2 is harder than base 2 -> base 10`
`20:46.26`	`Iriel`	`You can't represent a large number of simple decimals EXACTLY as floats (or doubles)`
`20:46.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Crispix (n=Crispy@c-24-7-241-103.hsd1.in.comcast.net)`
`20:46.38`	`Iriel`	`that's probably what you were thinking of`
`20:46.44`	`Maldivia`	`I remember back, when I was writing a raid-logger, using time() to log timestames... and then it was saved as 1.1235e9 or somethng like that`
`20:46.51`	`Maldivia`	`meaning more or less worthless as a timestamp :)`
`20:48.07`	`Maldivia`	`thats when I started saving them as ""..time()`
`20:48.21`	`Qzot`	`There's a variation of Euler's algorithm that can give you a rational within a given arbitrary precision. That would work well for base conversions.`
`20:48.46`	`Iriel`	`I would imagine the standard C library has the best available implementation`
`20:49.02`	`krka`	`yeah, by representing values as fractions, all base conversions could be perfect`
`20:49.21`	`Qzot`	`Doesn't make PI a lot easier, tho. :P`
`20:49.27`	`Iriel`	`krka: Though potentially requiring infinite storage space`
`20:49.33`	`krka`	`pi = 22/7`
`20:49.48`	`Maldivia`	`krka: naah...`
`20:49.52`	`krka`	`i think you misunderstand me`
`20:49.55`	`Iriel`	`krka: Or at least, an arbitrarily bounded finite amount of storage space`
`20:49.58`	`Qzot`	`Oh. Of course. How irrational of me to have thought otherwise.`
`20:50.16`	`krka`	`converting a value in base A to base B wouldn't increase the storage`
`20:50.16`	`Maldivia`	`storing PI as a fraction... good luck :)`
`20:50.51`	`Tain`	`I like cherry pi`
`20:51.12`	`Iriel`	`krka: it COULD`
`20:51.28`	`Qzot`	`Iriel: I'm not following. How can conversion of a rational from base to base require potentially infinite storage?`
`20:51.32`	`Iriel`	`krka: actually, let me restate that`
`20:52.10`	`Maldivia`	`Tain: mmmmm`
`20:52.13`	`Iriel`	`krka: Since yes, the base you choose to display something in has nothing to do with storage space`
`20:52.43`	`Iriel`	`krka: However, doing math with rationals starts to get tricky if they dont have common factors, I wasn't answering the right issue`
`20:52.53`	`Qzot`	`(Ignoring what I said earlier about the algorithm searching for the simplest rational within a given distance of the desired float.)`
`20:55.24`	`Iriel`	`So that 'global function output' is a disaster waiting to happen`
`20:55.41`	`Maldivia`	`?`
`20:55.52`	`Iriel`	`well, what if the function isn't there next time you load up`
`20:56.02`	`Iriel`	`Your SV will fail to parse and will abort`
`20:56.12`	`Maldivia`	`ahh ,yeah... have to try something`
`20:57.08`	`krka`	`i am thinking we should store all that as strings`
`20:57.13`	`krka`	`store strings as "s" .. str`
`20:57.16`	`Maldivia`	`Uhh...`
`20:57.18`	`Maldivia`	`[function() --[[ inline function body not available ]] end] = "test",`
`20:57.27`	`krka`	`store global funs as "gf" .. fun-name`
`20:57.29`	`Maldivia`	`for a SVtest[function() end] = "test"`
`20:58.07`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : That's live, right?`
`20:58.20`	`Maldivia`	`that's test`
`20:58.47`	`Maldivia`	`apparently, it compares function reference with API functions`
`20:58.47`	`krka`	`would be pretty cool if functions were identified by a checksum computed from function body`
`20:58.49`	`Qzot`	`that's disgusting`
`20:59.00`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, nope`
`20:59.11`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: I think it compares with global frame.`
`20:59.11`	`Iriel`	`Hm, I thought I got an error when I did that`
`20:59.20`	`Maldivia`	`it checks if the function is in global env :\|`
`20:59.28`	`Qzot`	`Yup.`
`20:59.38`	`Qzot`	`That's consistent with my test on 1.9.`
`20:59.45`	`Iriel`	`Wzot: it compares with global env`
`20:59.46`	`Maldivia`	`I did a t = SpellStopCasting SVtest[t] = "2" -- It created the following SV file: [SpellStopCasting] = "2",`
`20:59.48`	`Iriel`	`Qzot, that is`
`21:00.05`	`Maldivia`	`which I find quite interesting`
`21:00.06`	`Iriel`	`I did function DummyFunc() end`
`21:00.12`	`Iriel`	`then X[DummyFunc] = "2"`
`21:00.13`	`Iriel`	`worked`
`21:00.16`	`Iriel`	`until I reloaded`
`21:00.18`	`Iriel`	`then it broke`
`21:00.21`	`Qzot`	`Hehe.`
`21:00.24`	`Iriel`	`(thus my comment above about it being flawed)`
`21:00.37`	`Iriel`	`Even an API reference based one would be flawed`
`21:00.40`	`Iriel`	`since the API does change sometimes`
`21:00.47`	`Qzot`	`Check back to my first experiment that everyone complained about. :P Exactly what I said.`
`21:01.10`	`Iriel`	`Qzot: I didn't complain about it 8-) I just wasn't sure what you were showing!`
`21:01.13`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: but check my example... setting a global variable to a function, and then using that variable, still the name of the function the variable points to is used`
`21:01.15`	`krka`	`functions are tricky, i dont think they should be saved at all in SV`
`21:01.21`	`Qzot`	`True enough. It was poorly labeled.`
`21:01.40`	`Qzot`	`I think they should be converted to lisp, and then saved.`
`21:01.49`	`krka`	`for me it could even cause problems if functions are saved`
`21:02.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Parak (n=profi@user-0cev737.cable.mindspring.com)`
`21:02.48`	`krka`	`consider this structure: fun ={ ["body"] = "if X then return 1 else return 0 end", ["fun"] = nil }`
`21:02.51`	`Qzot`	`Or better than Lisp, as Fortran.`
`21:02.57`	`krka`	`and then creating "fun" when needed`
`21:03.31`	`krka`	`if that was a SV variable, and SV saving was actually trying to store the function it would break things, if it didn't manage to save it correctly`
`21:03.37`	`krka`	`replacing it with an empty function or something`
`21:03.38`	`Iriel`	`krka: Indeed, we can do that also, with loadstring.`
`21:03.52`	`krka`	`exactly`
`21:03.53`	`Qzot`	`Oh, gross. It gets worse.`
`21:03.55`	`krka`	`or RunScript`
`21:04.15`	`krka`	`do we have loadstring now or do we get it in 1.10 btw?`
`21:04.41`	`Iriel`	`krka: It already does replace it with an empty function1.10`
`21:04.47`	`Iriel`	`1.10, that is`
`21:05.24`	`Qzot`	`function (a) return function() return a end end; SV[1] = function(2);`
`21:06.17`	`Iriel`	`Do you get function() --[[ inline function body not available ]] end`
`21:06.21`	`Iriel`	`or something else?`
`21:06.55`	`Qzot`	`Probably. Mostly trying to illustrate that there's probably no good representation for closure in the way krka is trying to develop.`
`21:07.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shouryuu (n=Shouryuu@26.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`21:07.42`	`Maldivia`	`the function reference is flawed... it uses the first name in the global enviroment it finds that matches the reference... so doing a,b,c,d,e=SpellStopCasting,SpellStopCasting,SpellStopCasting,SpellStopCasting,SpellStopCasting SVtest[SpellStopCasting] = "Something", any of the now 6 variables are candidates for being listed in the SV file (in my test, b was saved)`
`21:08.25`	`Qzot`	`And the global environment is probably a hash table, so chances are very good you could pollute the more canonical name.`
`21:08.45`	`Maldivia`	`the global enviroment is a lua table`
`21:08.47`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : My recomendation in my email si to drop the functionality completely`
`21:08.56`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: Exactly.`
`21:09.13`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Namely, dont serialize table entries with keys that are tables, functions, or userdata. Period.`
`21:10.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Gryphon (n=masked@c-67-183-238-150.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`21:10.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Shadowd (n=outlaw@mocha.kamungus.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`21:10.27`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Qzot\|commuting (i=user@sandbox.xerox.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`21:10.28`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Corrodias (n=no@th-242-251.rh.uwec.edu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`21:10.28`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: yeah, or perhaps tostring() them ?`
`21:10.28`	`Iriel`	`No, they shouldn't be saevd, at all`
`21:10.28`	`Iriel`	`We dont want to save one thing and get back something of a different type`
`21:10.28`	`Shadowd`	`Suckers`
`21:10.28`	`Qzot`	`Iriel: Agreed. I would go further, and do the same for function/closure and userdata values.`
`21:10.29`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: yeah`
`21:10.29`	`Iriel`	`Userdata values come back as nil`
`21:10.29`	`Qzot`	`Acceptable.`
`21:10.55`	`Maldivia`	`which fucks up the entire saved table`
`21:10.55`	`Maldivia`	`so unacceptable`
`21:10.56`	`Iriel`	`But I`
`21:10.56`	`Qzot`	`But the problem Mald just illustrated for functions as keys has its counterpart for functions as values.`
`21:10.56`	`Iriel`	`I'll request that function values come back as nil also`
`21:11.43`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: Well, I prefer thet the whole SV be unwritten. But given the bounds Blizz is setting, a nil value seems more acceptable than a complete screw-up.`
`21:12.04`	`Maldivia`	`How will you save a nil value as the key?`
`21:12.29`	`Iriel`	`You're misinterpreting me`
`21:12.42`	`Maldivia`	`or do you mean save it as ["function:123123123"] = nil ?`
`21:12.48`	`Iriel`	`My recommendation is: As KEYS, table, function, userdata values should cause the entry to NOT get written`
`21:12.55`	`Maldivia`	`Yeah, ok`
`21:12.57`	`Iriel`	`As VALUES, they get written as nil, with a comment`
`21:13.12`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: I think the point under discussion is the representation of userdata as value (not as key). My preference is with you, don't put it in the SV. But if it comes back as nil, that's within the bounds Blizz is currently using.`
`21:13.54`	`krka`	`yes, that's reasonable`
`21:14.07`	`Maldivia`	`well, tables, functions and userdata as key, could just be marked as a comment in the SV file, but no actual table-entry`
`21:14.21`	`krka`	`saving an empty-function instead is just stupid`
`21:14.31`	`Maldivia`	`and functions and userdata s value, as a nil value with a comment`
`21:14.59`	`Maldivia`	`well, using complex types as keys in a saved variable is asking for trouble anyway :)`
`21:14.59`	`Iriel`	`It's not "stupid", it was discussed on the forum at the time`
`21:15.04`	`Iriel`	`it's something you just have to know about`
`21:15.28`	`Iriel`	`the basic feeling was 'it's ugly and not very helpful, but you shouldnt be doing it anyway'`
`21:15.29`	`Qzot`	`Mald's suggestion here would help mod devs. Possibly a pain with multi-line data, so the comment might only have the key's value, and not the value's value. I lik it.`
`21:16.32`	`Qzot`	`s/multi-line data/data values which are themselves tables and would normally be expressed as multiple lines in the SV/`
`21:17.01`	`Qzot`	`And I like Mald's suggestion, I don't lik or lick it.`
`21:17.07`	`Iriel`	`I agree with the suggestion for a comment in the file`
`21:17.49`	`Qzot`	`Request: Can you guys please change the topic to something more boring, so that I can get back to work, please? :D`
`21:18.39`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, not much forum activity today...`
`21:18.44`	`Shouryuu`	`aye`
`21:18.46`	`Shouryuu`	`not a bad thing`
`21:18.50`	`Maldivia`	`or is it "that day of the month" ?`
`21:18.59`	`Shouryuu`	`...`
`21:19.18`	`Maldivia`	`billing day = no posting rights`
`21:19.21`	`Iriel`	`I think it's just calmed down from the 1.10 frenzy`
`21:19.59`	`Shouryuu`	`how do you say that in english?`
`21:20.05`	`Shouryuu`	`before the strom, the calm?`
`21:20.26`	`Maldivia`	`I haven't seen a single "Will [insert addon here or macro] work in 1.10" post today :)`
`21:20.37`	`Qzot`	`Shouryuu: The clam before the strom.`
`21:20.55`	`Maldivia`	`storm :)`
`21:21.44`	`Qzot`	`Shouryuu, what's your first language, if you don't mind me asking?`
`21:22.03`	`Shouryuu`	`french :P`
`21:22.05`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@rhhe10-109.2wcm.comporium.net)`
`21:22.08`	`Maldivia`	`strom... why does that remind me of stroh rum :)`
`21:22.31`	`Qzot`	`Reminds me too much of hiding from Alliance in Arathi highlands. :P`
`21:22.49`	`Maldivia`	`The Alliance have clams ?`
`21:23.06`	`Qzot`	`Shouryuu: Do you play on the Euro servers or the U.S.?`
`21:23.26`	`Ktron`	`Maldivia; people won't ask until the addons come out`
`21:23.33`	`Ktron`	`s/addons/patch/`
`21:23.59`	`Maldivia`	`Ktron: so the tons of posts the last week is just a warmup ?`
`21:24.21`	`Ktron`	`yep:)`
`21:25.08`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, I think I'll have to get myself a 3-day suspension form the forums the day the patch comes out then...`
`21:26.51`	`Maldivia`	`There's going to be so God damn many posts whining about this and that addon is being blocked...`
`21:27.36`	`Qzot`	`(Yay! mIRC blocked my accidentally spamming you with code I'm pasting from one file to another.)`
`21:27.46`	`Iriel`	`I'll post a summary of our discoveries and suggestions to the forum`
`21:28.12`	`Maldivia`	`OK`
`21:28.22`	`Maldivia`	`Qzot: dammit - I wanted to steal your code! :)`
`21:28.44`	`Qzot`	`Heh. Not this code you don't.`
`21:28.50`	`Qzot`	`It's ugly.`
`21:28.53`	`Iriel`	`We could blackmail you with it`
`21:29.01`	`Qzot`	`That you could do.`
`21:29.05`	`Iriel`	`Threaten to send it to future potential employers`
`21:29.30`	`Maldivia`	`hmm... I think I should start purging some CVS repositories then...`
`21:29.31`	`Iriel`	`Is it just me, or are the forums glacially slow today?`
`21:29.47`	`Qzot`	`It's actually why I'm moving it ... from foo.lua to foo-retiredCode.lua.`
`21:29.49`	`Maldivia`	`it's slow... in all ways`
`21:30.36`	`Maldivia`	`I had a thread, which I stealth-bumped almost 2 hours ago... it's still on the front page :)`
`21:30.51`	`Qzot`	`Stealthed-bumped?`
`21:31.01`	`Qzot`	`STOP SAYING INTERESTING THINGS, darn you!`
`21:31.49`	`Maldivia`	`Well, not a B-2, just a normal Stealth Bump :)`
`21:32.48`	`Iriel`	`Stealth bump -- Post a bump then delete it`
`21:32.54`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Stylpe (n=Stylpe@147.84-48-169.nextgentel.com)`
`21:32.59`	`Iriel`	`All the goodness of a bump, but none of the annoying 'bump' posts`
`21:33.06`	`Iriel`	`Cairenn's the expert on the technique`
`21:33.08`	`Shouryuu`	`qzot- Sorry was afk, US`
`21:33.22`	`Qzot`	`Spill it.`
`21:33.29`	`Maldivia`	`Iriel: except when forget to delete the posts, or people are to quick to quote :)`
`21:33.31`	`Stylpe`	`Hey, can anyone help me with a small c++ question?`
`21:33.47`	`Qzot`	`Maldivia: Tnx for big hint.`
`21:34.03`	`Qzot`	`Iriel: Tnx for answer.`
`21:34.08`	`Iriel`	`Stylpe : Sure`
`21:34.16`	`Iriel`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?ForumName=wow-interface-customization&ThreadID=335282`
`21:34.30`	`Iriel`	`That's my proposal on SV fixes`
`21:34.39`	`Iriel`	`I added one more we didn't directly discuss here`
`21:34.43`	`Stylpe`	`How do I use the [] operator of an object I only have a pointer to?`
`21:35.06`	`Iriel`	`(*object)[index]`
`21:35.07`	`Stylpe`	`p[0] doesn't work, neither does *p[0]`
`21:35.10`	`Stylpe`	`Ah =)`
`21:35.12`	`Stylpe`	`Thanks`
`21:35.23`	`Iriel`	`p[0] parses as (p[0])`
`21:35.26`	`Iriel`	`which is what's throwing you`
`21:35.55`	`krka`	`index[*object] should work too`
`21:36.17`	`Iriel`	`krka: Err, no`
`21:36.30`	`krka`	`hmm... maybe just in C`
`21:36.30`	`Iriel`	`krka: That';s not even close to valid for C++`
`21:36.47`	`Iriel`	`Not even C`
`21:36.53`	`krka`	`really?`
`21:37.04`	`Iriel`	`object->operator[](index) works too, I think, in C++`
`21:37.07`	`Iriel`	`yeah`
`21:37.16`	`Maldivia`	`krka: well, if you have some weird names for your variables, then it can work :)`
`21:37.39`	`Iriel`	`(arrayPtr)[1] versus 1[arrayPtr]`
`21:37.45`	`Iriel`	`(in C, that is)`
`21:38.24`	`Shouryuu`	`awwww dannng`
`21:38.45`	`krka`	`int main() { char s[80] = "Hello World"; printf("%c\n", 6[s]); }`
`21:38.49`	`krka`	`this compiles in C`
`21:38.56`	`krka`	`and prints W`
`21:38.59`	`Qzot`	`function me:newCountTable()`
`21:38.59`	`Qzot`	`-- A table, t, where t[foo] returns 0 for undefined foo.`
`21:39.00`	`Qzot`	`local result = {};`
`21:39.00`	`Qzot`	`setmetatable (result, {__index = function(tbl,key) return 0; end});`
`21:39.00`	`Qzot`	`return result;`
`21:39.00`	`Qzot`	`end`
`21:39.07`	`Qzot`	`grr. mt.`
`21:39.09`	`Shouryuu`	`tried to iron something on my school bag using some special papper, and I just ended up with a an ugly lump of white on it =(`
`21:39.23`	`Iriel`	`krka: That wasn't the question, though`
`21:39.42`	`Iriel`	`krka: you'd need char **ptr = &s; then do stuff with ptr.`
`21:39.56`	`Maldivia`	`krka: hehe, that's a REALLY ugly way of indexing :)`
`21:39.58`	`krka`	`ah`
`21:40.35`	`krka`	`#include <cstdio>`
`21:40.37`	`krka`	`int main() { char s = "Hello World"; char p = &s; printf("%c\n", 6[p]); }`
`21:40.40`	`krka`	`that compiles and runs with G++`
`21:40.49`	`Iriel`	`krka: Though who knows, it might still work for array objects. C++ adds the [] operator for objects, which I THINK this was a question about`
`21:41.03`	`Iriel`	`krka: I stand corrected on that for arrays then, still, does it work for objects?`
`21:41.10`	`krka`	`probably not :)`
`21:41.17`	`Maldivia`	`krka: now do it with int :)`
`21:41.40`	`krka`	`since the overloading is for the object, not for int`
`21:42.03`	`Maldivia`	`it works, 6[s] translates to mem-location 6 + mem-location of s`
`21:42.11`	`Stylpe`	`Here's another newb question: If I want an array of pointers to objects, is this the right way to do it: myClass *a;a = new myClass[10]; a[0] = new MyClass(args);`
`21:42.33`	`Iriel`	`Yes`
`21:42.37`	`Stylpe`	`:D`
`21:42.46`	`Stylpe`	`i r smrt`
`21:43.03`	`krka`	`looks about right`
`21:43.25`	`Stylpe`	`Thanks guys =)`
`21:43.34`	`krka`	`you know, a good way to test it is to ... test it!`
`21:43.43`	`krka`	`compile the code and see if it runs`
`21:43.57`	`Iriel`	`runs and 'is the right way to do it' isn't always the same 8-)`
`21:44.34`	`krka`	`true`
`21:44.51`	`Stylpe`	`I guess`
`21:45.02`	`Maldivia`	`krka: t.c:3: warning: initialization makes pointer from integer without a cast`
`21:45.10`	`Iriel`	`c++decl> declare a as array of pointer to class myClass`
`21:45.10`	`Iriel`	`class myClass *a[]`
`21:45.18`	`krka`	`i'd probably do: vector<*myClass> a(10); a[0] = new MyClass(args);`
`21:45.26`	`Stylpe`	`but I got so many compile errors on my last edit, I haven't had the chance yet >_<`
`21:45.31`	`Iriel`	`c++decl prefers the array approach over the pointer-to-pointer one`
`21:46.10`	`krka`	`actually, i try to avoid pointers as much as possible and use references instead`
`21:46.46`	`Iriel`	`You need to have the objects around to use references though`
`21:47.08`	`Maldivia`	`krka: hehe, and what's the different of a pointer and a reference...`
`21:47.40`	`Iriel`	`esentially a reference ends up as 'constant pointer which you can't DO many things with safely'`
`21:47.48`	`Stylpe`	`Okay, this is odd`
`21:47.51`	`Iriel`	`it's nice sugar, but not fundamentally different if you know what you'er doing`
`21:48.05`	`krka`	`reference is basically a write-once pointer`
`21:48.18`	`krka`	`and it acts syntactically as the object itself`
`21:48.30`	`Stylpe`	`How does it make QList<int> jumps; into QList<int>& ?`
`21:48.35`	`krka`	`yes, it's only sugar, but good sugar`
`21:50.05`	`Shouryuu`	`any NE priests around?`
`21:50.11`	`Osagasu`	`yo.`
`21:50.16`	`Osagasu`	`What you need Shour?`
`21:50.24`	`Shouryuu`	`do you feel that the new racial talent sucks?`
`21:50.31`	`Shouryuu`	`well new being a big word`
`21:50.33`	`Osagasu`	`I haven't had a chance to try it`
`21:50.44`	`Stylpe`	`Oh, quick question, float takes less mem than double, right?`
`21:50.49`	`Osagasu`	`I have looked at an experimental build for a PvP priest though`
`21:50.49`	`Iriel`	`Yes`
`21:50.52`	`Osagasu`	`http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/priests2/talents.html?00000000000000003250030000000000502525103511251`
`21:50.56`	`Iriel`	`But it's correspondingly less precise`
`21:51.02`	`Iriel`	`And not necessarily any faster`
`21:51.08`	`Iriel`	`(in fact, it can end up slower)`
`21:51.10`	`Shouryuu`	`I'm quite unsure about my build`
`21:51.12`	`Stylpe`	`I just need to store two decimal places`
`21:51.18`	`Shouryuu`	`I'm not going to be playing till april so I'm no hurry`
`21:51.19`	`Shouryuu`	`but still`
`21:51.27`	`Iriel`	`Are you using it for currency?`
`21:51.31`	`Stylpe`	`no`
`21:51.46`	`Iriel`	`Will the numbers be very large?`
`21:51.49`	`Shouryuu`	`you should take holy focus and no holy specialisation`
`21:51.53`	`Stylpe`	`no, between 1 and -1`
`21:51.56`	`Shouryuu`	`holy focus will seriously pimp your healing`
`21:51.59`	`Iriel`	`then float will do fine`
`21:52.04`	`Stylpe`	`=)`
`21:52.19`	`Iriel`	`Though there's very little reason NOT to use double`
`21:52.28`	`Iriel`	`unless you'rre in a very memory constrained environment`
`21:54.17`	`Maldivia`	`two decimal places... signed char can contain -100 to 100 -- only 1 byte :)`
`21:56.59`	`krka`	`hmm... char is generally 16 bits i think`
`21:57.04`	`krka`	`though it can be 1 byte`
`21:57.06`	`Shouryuu`	`lol http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7478696&p=1&tmp=1#post7478696`
`21:57.11`	`Shouryuu`	`I'm going to watch that`
`21:57.26`	`Iriel`	`char is 8 bits`
`21:57.28`	`Iriel`	`wchar is 16`
`21:57.45`	`Iriel`	`unless they changed something significant while I wasn't paying attention`
`21:58.44`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, what's the largest integer a double can contain - with full precision...`
`21:58.46`	`Shouryuu`	`my god " Joana hit level 50 on Jubei'Thos at 3 days 5 hours /played playing 18 hours per day. "`
`21:58.57`	`Shouryuu`	`how is that even possible`
`21:59.00`	`Shouryuu`	`that can't be done`
`21:59.39`	`Shouryuu`	`even farmers take like 2 weeks to lvl you from 0-60`
`22:00.03`	`krka`	`hmm... sorry, i was thinking of JAva`
`22:01.02`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : I think it's +/- 4503599627370496`
`22:01.33`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, ok`
`22:01.59`	`Iriel`	`double precision has 1 bit sign, 11 bit exponent, 52 bits of fraction`
`22:02.24`	`Stylpe`	`Bummer, it crashes :(`
`22:02.36`	`Maldivia`	`been too long since I've worked with the inner working of IEEE floating numbers :)`
`22:02.41`	`Maldivia`	`anyway... afk :)`
`22:02.46`	`Iriel`	`I asked google`
`22:04.23`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge duke\|ib (i=dukeku@c-67-160-162-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net)`
`22:04.58`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Actually, it's double what I posted`
`22:05.05`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : Due to the implied leading bit`
`22:05.26`	`Iriel`	`Maldivia : So it'd be +/-9,007,199,254,740,992`
`22:18.41`	`Qzot`	`Shouryuu (now gone): I don't think farmers are particularly efficient at leveling toons.`
`22:24.13`	`Shadowd`	`Before I start working on changing a mod, FontString's cannot get click events I assume?`
`22:31.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge wereHamster (n=tomc@gw.ptr-62-65-141-13.customer.ch.netstream.com)`
`22:36.28`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge sweede (n=sweede@71.194.83.65)`
`22:36.40`	`sweede`	`i got a question about hookin teh chat frame..`
`22:37.09`	`sweede`	`anyone up for it ?`
`22:37.21`	`Iriel`	`sure?`
`22:37.35`	`sweede`	`you know of either Forgotten Chat addon or the RaidList addons ?`
`22:38.27`	`Iriel`	`Shadowd : Not on their own, no.. they're not 'frames' just regions of a frame`
`22:38.34`	`Iriel`	`Shadowd : You can put them in, or under, a button tho`
`22:39.00`	`sweede`	`when i am using Forgotten Chat addon, RaidList doesnt work. RaidList simply hooks Chat Events and looks for a keyword (i.e. a word like list). but when i use Forgotten Chat, it seems that RaidList no longer hooks the ChatEvent`
`22:40.27`	`Iriel`	`Does RaidList CHANGE any of the text, or is it just 'passive' ?`
`22:42.50`	`sweede`	`passive`
`22:43.09`	`sweede`	`forgotten chat though, creates a new frame for each person that sends you a tell.`
`22:43.23`	`Iriel`	`Well, why is raidList hooking anything?`
`22:43.30`	`Iriel`	`It should have its own frame, registered for its own events`
`22:44.13`	`sweede`	`wait.. by changing text what do you mean ?`
`22:44.47`	`sweede`	`it does have an option to "hide" the list text and other keywords..`
`22:44.58`	`Iriel`	`ah, so it does need to hook, ok.`
`22:45.30`	`Iriel`	`I suspect the problem may just be that ForgottenChat creates its own frames with their own handlers, perhaps?`
`22:45.47`	`sweede`	`i would imagine so..`
`22:45.53`	`Iriel`	`You'd need to look at what ForgottenChat is doing to work out why it's breaking raidlist (or more likely, just not calling it)`
`22:46.27`	`Iriel`	`It's likely not THAT hard to fix, either, you'd have to make raidlist become forgottenchat aware though`
`22:47.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge SP\|Sorren (n=email@adsl-63-204-73-249.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)`
`22:48.12`	`sweede`	`Where would i start, in the FC hook ?`
`22:48.21`	`sweede`	`ChatFrame_OnEvent=FC_ChatFrame_OnEvent ?`
`22:48.41`	`Iriel`	`Well, you'd want to see if it's doing any other event handling`
`22:48.56`	`Iriel`	`is the problem that raidlist doesn't get called AT ALL, or just that it doesn't get called ENOUGH?`
`22:49.49`	`sweede`	`i dont think its being called at all.`
`22:50.19`	`sweede`	`i put in a DEFAULT_blah blah in teh raidlist ChatFrame event method and it doesnt print out when i send myself a whisper.`
`22:50.52`	`Iriel`	`Hm, then the problem may be in ho wthe FC hook works`
`22:50.59`	`Iriel`	`perhaps FC doesn't ever call the 'original' function`
`22:51.18`	`Iriel`	`One thing to try is make your addon optionally depend on FC, so it always loads after FC`
`22:51.46`	`Iriel`	`(you need a full client logout login after changing that)`
`22:52.08`	`Shadowd`	`Iriel: Thats what I though, just going to move them to buttons. Thanks`
`22:53.04`	`sweede`	`forgotten chat doesnt enable itself until AFTER the first sell is sent. i put in some code like,`
`22:53.04`	`sweede`	`function RaidList_Function_OnEvent( event )`
`22:53.04`	`sweede`	`DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("fdasfds");`
`22:53.22`	`sweede`	`and fdasfds is printed until i send myself a tell`
`22:55.36`	`Iriel`	`Does FC ever call the original OnEvent?`
`22:55.46`	`Iriel`	`And if it does, does it grab its reference to it right before it hooks, or does it erroneously grab it early but hook late`
`22:57.39`	`sweede`	`the last one you said there..`
`22:58.13`	`Iriel`	`grab early, hook late?`
`22:58.23`	`sweede`	`it looks like, the OnEvent method is finding a CHAT_MSG_WHISPER, then calls the method to enable Forgotten Chat, then calls the method that actually sets up the hook to the frame`
`22:58.24`	`Iriel`	`If so, that's a design flaw, and needs to get corrected.`
`22:58.52`	`Iriel`	`Hook methods usually look something like:`
`22:59.08`	`Iriel`	`local tempRef = realRef; realRef = newHookRef`
`22:59.13`	`sweede`	`ya.`
`22:59.15`	`Iriel`	`using tempRef`
`22:59.27`	`Iriel`	`but if that original reference is obtained long before the hook is installed`
`22:59.46`	`Iriel`	`then it'll be broken in the presence of changes to the function in the meantime`
`23:00.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zeeg (n=wguru@63.147.183.47)`
`23:01.05`	`sweede`	`well, here's the flow from the <OnEvent>..`
`23:01.13`	`sweede`	`elseif(event=="CHAT_MSG_WHISPER") and (FCVar_UserDisabled==0)then`
`23:01.13`	`sweede`	`if(FCVar_Enabled==0)then FC_Enable() end`
`23:01.19`	`sweede`	`then from FC_Enable()`
`23:01.36`	`sweede`	`or, inside fc_enable(),`
`23:01.36`	`sweede`	`OldChatFrame_OnEvent=ChatFrame_OnEvent`
`23:01.36`	`sweede`	`ChatFrame_OnEvent=FC_ChatFrame_OnEvent`
`23:02.03`	`Iriel`	`Hm, that should work then, as long as FC_ChatFrame_OnEvent actually CALLS OldChatFrame_OnEvent`
`23:02.42`	`sweede`	`in that method, i'm not sure whats going on.. heh`
`23:03.54`	`sweede`	`theres a method called FC_IsValidWhisper(), ad if it returns 0 then it calls teh old chatframe event...`
`23:04.00`	`sweede`	`so lets go there and see what happens..`
`23:06.05`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge wereHamster (n=tomc@gw.ptr-62-65-141-13.customer.ch.netstream.com)`
`23:10.33`	`sweede`	`ok, Forgotten Chat doesnt call the oldChatFrame event at all..`
`23:10.40`	`sweede`	`after its been replaced`
`23:10.53`	`AnduinLothar`	`typical..`
`23:11.14`	`AnduinLothar`	`it's hard to effectivly hook ChatFrame_OnEvent without replacing it`
`23:11.43`	`sweede`	`well.. the function of the addon creates new chat frames for the person sending you a tell..`
`23:12.23`	`sweede`	`i just made the new chatevent call the old one, and created a new chat frame for the whispers so they are hidden`
`23:12.30`	`AnduinLothar`	`which could be done with a sepperate event driver, the problem is effectively blocking that message on other chat frames`
`23:12.57`	`sweede`	`ya.. seems to have been my problem`
`23:13.39`	`AnduinLothar`	`which should logically be done by ChatFrame_OnEvent, but because of the crappy way it was written it's probably better to hook all 7 ChatFrame#.AddMessage`
`23:14.03`	`sweede`	`well damnit.. thats why a lot of addons that i have (like WhispermeNot) didnt work :\|`
`23:14.03`	`AnduinLothar`	`which means 7 hooks and regex`
`23:14.47`	`AnduinLothar`	`old problem, same is true with sky`
`23:14.53`	`sweede`	`heh`
`23:15.43`	`sweede`	`so i guess the question is how i can suppress whispers from being displayed on the original ChatFrame, but have everything work as it always has.`
`23:16.11`	`AnduinLothar`	`you can't. hooking the AddMessage is pretty much a hack.`
`23:16.58`	`AnduinLothar`	`Which is what TellTrack does, your primary competition`
`23:17.09`	`sweede`	`heh`
`23:17.52`	`AnduinLothar`	`more compatible, less intuitive, requires a bunch of other hooks to make it act like the default system`
`23:18.33`	`AnduinLothar`	`you can just call the normal dissable for other frames usign the default filters`
`23:20.05`	`Maldivia`	`hmm, interesting... not only is Blizzard's signed code allowed to call the movement commands etc, but all the spell functions doesn't require hardware events when called from signed code`
`23:20.19`	`AnduinLothar`	`right`
`23:20.28`	`AnduinLothar`	`that's why they're signed :P`
`23:21.09`	`sweede`	`heh.. give it like, 1 month before the CA that signs the addons and whatnot is leaked/hacked/cracked`
`23:21.47`	`Maldivia`	`Highly doubt it'll be hacked or cracked...`
`23:21.50`	`Maldivia`	`if anything, then leaked`
`23:22.35`	`Miravlix`	`Who says they are signing at all`
`23:22.51`	`Miravlix`	`They might just have crc for Bliz stuff`
`23:22.52`	`Gryphon`	`lol`
`23:23.09`	`AnduinLothar`	`prolly just md5'd in some unmodifiable mpq`
`23:23.35`	`Miravlix`	`Nothing we can do about it, since we can't get the sign into wow.exe`
`23:26.41`	`Miravlix`	`Though they could be transfaring the serial when login in to the server.`
`23:26.53`	`Miravlix`	`I noticed that .tocs is read after you login.`
`23:27.41`	`Miravlix`	`So it's server side and nothing to do about it at all, but since any use of the signing by us would require some kind of hack, does it matter?`
`23:28.06`	`Gryphon`	`love discussions based on specualtion`
`23:29.11`	`Miravlix`	`We don't we speculate on how to make movement hooking work then? atleast that has a use.`
`23:30.00`	`Maldivia`	`Miravlix: ever noticed the .pub files for all the Blizzard addons ?`
`23:30.35`	`Miravlix`	`I've heard of them, but I've never looked in the bliz directories`
`23:30.39`	`Maldivia`	`and last I checked, it wasn't a Microsoft Publisher document :)`
`23:31.58`	`Miravlix`	`pub is used by Public Key Signing technoligy`
`23:32.26`	`Miravlix`	`So I guess bliz is using PGP or something like it.`
`23:33.02`	`Miravlix`	`What else would use use?`
`23:33.25`	`Miravlix`	`s/use use/you use/`
`23:34.24`	`Miravlix`	`PGP technoligy is well tested and mature these days, so that does seem like a logical technoligy to use for signing stuff.`
`23:35.00`	`Gryphon`	`lol`
`23:35.08`	`Gryphon`	`its like you are talking to someone i cant see`
`23:35.19`	`Gryphon`	`adding more to the convo that was as said`
`23:36.15`	`Miravlix`	`and your point?`
`23:36.18`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=Kronus@rhhe10-109.2wcm.comporium.net)`
`23:36.47`	`Gryphon`	`its like you are arguing a point that wasnt even stated`
`23:37.36`	`Maldivia`	`Gryphon: are you perhaps mixing my nick with Miravlix ?`
`23:37.46`	`Miravlix`	`I still don't see your point?`
`23:37.52`	`Gryphon`	`no`
`23:38.11`	`Miravlix`	`There was others involved in the conversation, I was making a guess at what the pub file is.`
`23:42.50`	`Shouryuu\|Sleep`	`wow lots of ppl are using ctProfiles already`
`23:43.16`	`Miravlix`	`Anything new is cool. :)`
`23:44.05`	`Shouryuu\|Sleep`	`:P`
`23:46.52`	`Shouryuu`	`man I hate it when I'm tired but just don't want to sleep`
`23:54.02`	`Shouryuu`	`Shakespeare is so cool`
`23:54.11`	`AnduinLothar`	`i never really WANT to sleep unless i've been up 36 hours`
`23:54.16`	`Miravlix`	`He is old, old isn't cool`
`23:54.30`	`Shouryuu`	`I mean 'Thou has not half that power to do me harm As I have to be hurt" has to be the coolest way to say "hurt me all you can bitch"`
`23:54.38`	`AnduinLothar`	`lots of people are using it, is it good tho?`
`23:55.14`	`Shouryuu`	`I don't want to sleep neither, just sleeping in class sucks`
`23:55.15`	`AnduinLothar`	`I haven't tried it yet`
`23:56.03`	`Miravlix`	`I assume you aren't talking about taking a run in Shakespeare. :p`
`23:56.13`	`AnduinLothar`	`ctprofiles`
`23:56.23`	`Shouryuu`	`ah`
`23:56.39`	`Shouryuu`	`it takes a while to load but once it's loaded it's real quick`
`23:56.42`	`Shouryuu`	`which is cool`
`23:57.00`	`AnduinLothar`	`i meant feature wise`
`23:57.06`	`Shouryuu`	`nothing new`
`23:57.14`	`Shouryuu`	`items, talents, rep, honor`
`23:57.17`	`Shouryuu`	`whipeee`
`23:57.46`	`AnduinLothar`	`addon anything special?`
`23:57.53`	`Miravlix`	`Takes a while to load?`
`23:57.59`	`Shouryuu`	`well it does here`
`23:58.06`	`Shouryuu`	`a while is abit too much`
`23:58.11`	`Miravlix`	`Takes a while to load as an addon?`
`23:58.29`	`Shouryuu`	`no the page its self`
`23:58.38`	`Shouryuu`	`never tried the addon`
`23:59.31`	`Miravlix`	`The page sucks, I just tried to look up myself and I'm not there!!!1!!`
`23:59.38`	`Shouryuu`	`awwwww`

Generated by irclog2html.pl by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net! Modified by Tim Riker to work with blootbot logs, split per channel, etc.