irclog2html for #wowi-lounge on 20051127

`00:00.08`	`Legorol\|WSG`	`your legacy remains ;-)`
`00:01.15`	`krka`	`i wish someone would take it off my hands`
`00:01.29`	`krka`	`i only like to make new stuff, maintaining is boring :)`
`00:02.05`	`kergoth`	`hm, as expected, a tuple implemented with functions is much more efficient than via tables, gc wise, but is less efficient performance wise`
`00:02.08`	`kergoth`	`good to confirm`
`00:03.12`	`Iriel`	`how did you define your tables? [1][2] ?`
`00:03.19`	`krka`	`what's a tuple implemented with functions?`
`00:03.24`	`krka`	`can you give an example?`
`00:03.29`	`kergoth`	`yeah, numerically indexed, to be a fair comparison`
`00:03.32`	`Iriel`	`tuple = function() return 3,5; end`
`00:03.49`	`Iriel`	`function createTuple(x,y) return function() return x,y; end end`
`00:03.51`	`Iriel`	`etc`
`00:04.09`	`kergoth`	`yep, can be useful. a simple x,y tuple can be a workable linked list`
`00:04.13`	`krka`	`hmm...`
`00:04.15`	`krka`	`i don't get it`
`00:04.19`	`Iriel`	`They're non-serializable tho`
`00:04.28`	`kergoth`	`you call the new tuple you create to get at the values`
`00:04.28`	`krka`	`what's the use of this?`
`00:04.38`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`00:04.54`	`kergoth`	`Iriel: yeah, definately advantages and disadvantages to the approach`
`00:05.41`	`krka`	`why do you need a function to create a tuple?`
`00:06.02`	`Iriel`	`well, if you want an arbitrary one (code generated)`
`00:06.04`	`Iriel`	`you can't do it inline`
`00:06.14`	`Iriel`	`well, you CAN, but it's essentially what I just did`
`00:06.24`	`Iriel`	`if you're doing it from globals you can't`
`00:06.30`	`Iriel`	`(Unless you're very careful)`
`00:09.20`	`krka`	`i'd appreciate if anyone could point me to an example where these kind of tuples are used`
`00:09.21`	`kergoth`	`ooh, i didnt notice these items in the 5.1 changelog..`
`00:09.22`	`kergoth`	`damn, a tuple implemented with functions is much more efficient gc wise than t`
`00:09.23`	`kergoth`	`er`
`00:09.29`	`kergoth`	`damn dual clipboards in linux`
`00:09.29`	`kergoth`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:09.36`	`kergoth`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:09.40`	`kergoth`	`spiffy`
`00:09.52`	`krka`	`yay, that sounds great`
`00:10.03`	`krka`	`though, that doesn't mean that blizz will use 5.1`
`00:12.20`	`Anduin\|Work`	`mmm, that was fun`
`00:12.57`	`Anduin\|Work`	`went to work, thought i was 1 min late. manager clocks me in, i go look at the schedule ont he other side of the store, see i'm nto on for another hour, and go clock out`
`00:13.20`	`kergoth`	`krka: yeah :(`
`00:13.22`	`Anduin\|Work`	`get paid for 6 min of times for no good reason`
`00:15.23`	`kergoth`	`http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.lua.general/17681 is interesting`
`00:24.05`	`Legorol\|WSG`	`can someone tell me how i can get to the 5.1 changenotes by just following links from www.lua.org?`
`00:25.22`	`krka`	`would be real nice if LUA would include real tuples`
`00:25.25`	`krka`	`like Haskell!`
`00:25.25`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge tyndral (n=root@ppp42-174.lns2.syd6.internode.on.net)`
`00:25.34`	`tyndral`	`stupid broken Forums of Brokenness.`
`00:25.40`	`Anduin\|Here`	`mmm, this should be fun... runing loops on ADDON_LOADED to identify manual hooks by addon`
`00:25.46`	`Cairenn`	`hi tyndral and yup`
`00:25.57`	`tyndral`	`how can I procrastinate if the forums are down, eh?`
`00:26.03`	`Anduin\|Here`	`irc woot`
`00:26.06`	`tyndral`	`actually, i think the answer to that is lying right before my eyes.`
`00:26.11`	`Cairenn`	`easy, come here`
`00:26.29`	`kergoth`	`krka: indeed. check out this thread: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.lua.general/10497 in which rici proposes functional tuples as an alternative to the new ... stuff in 5.1, and is mostly shot down by roberto`
`00:26.36`	`Iriel`	`a tuple is a set of N (typically simple) values`
`00:26.37`	`krka`	`i read it`
`00:26.39`	`Anduin\|Here`	`heh, tuple == non-maliable list/table`
`00:26.50`	`Iriel`	`Generally immutable, yes`
`00:26.56`	`Iriel`	`so (1,2,3) is a 3-tuple`
`00:27.00`	`Legorol`	`ok`
`00:27.03`	`Anduin\|Here`	`immutable, that's the word i was looking for`
`00:27.10`	`tyndral`	`a triple-truple, if you will.`
`00:27.11`	`krka`	`immutable in the same way that numbers are`
`00:27.20`	`kergoth`	`"My argument is that tuples-as-functions are more useful and while`
`00:27.20`	`kergoth`	`possibly not as efficient as ..., much more efficient than`
`00:27.20`	`kergoth`	`varargs-as-tables, which is probably efficient enough (imho)."`
`00:27.23`	`kergoth`	`hmm.`
`00:27.31`	`Anduin\|Here`	`O.o`
`00:27.33`	`Legorol`	`so, can anyone tell me how i can get to the 5.1 change notes?`
`00:27.38`	`krka`	`tuples-as-functions seem kinda hackish`
`00:27.50`	`kergoth`	`krka: well, it avoids creating a new datatype`
`00:28.05`	`kergoth`	`and lua already provides the mechanisms.. function closures`
`00:28.13`	`Legorol`	`how much memory does creating a function closure take up?`
`00:28.13`	`Legorol`	`as opposed to creating a table say`
`00:28.15`	`krka`	`yes... but is that so efficient?`
`00:28.22`	`krka`	`creating new functions whenever you need a new tuple`
`00:28.36`	`Legorol`	`doesn't that need to save data about stuff like all upvalues?`
`00:28.39`	`Iriel`	`I dont know if kergoth tested it in wow`
`00:28.40`	`krka`	`(that needs to be GC)`
`00:28.52`	`krka`	`a normal tuple wouldn't need GC, I think`
`00:28.53`	`Iriel`	`Legorol : No, only those that are referenced, and even then they're resolved already`
`00:29.11`	`kergoth`	`krka: well, its been argued that a string is a special case of a tuple`
`00:29.12`	`Iriel`	`Well, a normal tuple would have to have GC unless it fit in a register`
`00:29.21`	`kergoth`	`krka: in which case you could consider a single cache for the values not unlike the string one`
`00:29.30`	`Legorol`	`ehm, so if the function code doesn't reference any upvalues, it doesn't need any extra info stored when creating closure?`
`00:29.52`	`Iriel`	`Legorol : Correct (Though I dont know if the WoW lua implementation stores debugging information)`
`00:29.57`	`kergoth`	`Legorol: its the HISTORY file in the 5.1 sources`
`00:30.01`	`kergoth`	`Legorol: download and take a look`
`00:30.16`	`Legorol`	`you mean it's not on the Lua site?`
`00:30.17`	`Legorol`	`:9`
`00:30.18`	`kergoth`	`Legorol: be warned that its quite minimal. see the mailing list threads for any info about the motivations behind any of the changes, or implementation details`
`00:30.27`	`kergoth`	`5.1 isnt released.`
`00:30.38`	`kergoth`	`if you cant be bothered to download the _beta_ release candidate to read the changes...`
`00:30.43`	`kergoth`	`:P`
`00:30.48`	`Legorol`	`which mailing list would that be?`
`00:30.53`	`kergoth`	`the lua-users one`
`00:30.55`	`kergoth`	`lua-users.org`
`00:30.55`	`Legorol`	`oh i am happy to download it`
`00:31.07`	`Legorol`	`i just didn't realise i need to download the full source to see change notes`
`00:31.13`	`Legorol`	`i thought it'd be up on the site somewhere`
`00:31.15`	`kergoth`	`i find gmane.com to be the best archive interface`
`00:31.16`	`Legorol`	`no wonder i couldn't find it`
`00:31.21`	`Iriel`	`I'm sure once they release it it will be`
`00:31.24`	`kergoth`	`indeed`
`00:31.32`	`Cairenn`	`Legorol: 1.3 - When is the next version due?Lua 5.1 (beta) is now available for testing. We hope to release Lua 5.1 by the end of the year. 1.4 - What changes will the next version bring?If you're concerned with incompatibilities, you shouldn't, because we make every effort to avoid introducing any incompatibilities. When incompatibilities are unavoidable, previous code is usually supported unmodified,`
`00:31.41`	`kergoth`	`there'a 5.1 version of the reference manual in the source tree, take a look`
`00:31.41`	`Cairenn`	`http://www.lua.org/faq.html`
`00:32.18`	`kergoth`	`thanks cair :)`
`00:32.31`	`Cairenn`	`welcome`
`00:33.10`	`Legorol`	`ty Ciar`
`00:33.12`	`Legorol`	`*Cair`
`00:33.19`	`Cairenn`	`welcome :)`
`00:33.32`	`Cairenn`	`just hope it actually helped :p`
`00:34.33`	`Cairenn`	`so, Iriel`
`00:34.41`	`Cairenn`	`what the hell did you do this time?`
`00:34.49`	`kergoth`	`http://lua-users.org/wiki/FunctionalTuples , for those wondering about such things`
`00:34.54`	`Cairenn`	`must have been pretty good, given that he's out of town!`
`00:35.10`	`Iriel`	`What? Me?`
`00:35.15`	`Cairenn`	`yes, you`
`00:35.27`	`Cairenn`	`hehehe`
`00:35.37`	`Iriel`	`I certainly didn't break the forum, if that's what you mean`
`00:35.59`	`Anduin\|Here`	`stealth bumping ftl`
`00:36.12`	`Cairenn`	`Blizz forums are broken, that means you pissed Slouken off, and it must have been a doozy to have pissed him off while he isn't even home to notice and thus take the forums down!`
`00:36.29`	`Iriel`	`Heh`
`00:36.40`	`Iriel`	`Maybe he didn't like my anchoring bug`
`00:37.08`	`Cairenn`	`sorry, every time I yell at him because the forums are broken, he tells me that it's your fault, you pissed him off so he broke the forums to get back at you`
`00:37.13`	`Cairenn`	`;)`
`00:37.18`	`krka`	`that's a good description kergoth, thanks`
`00:37.22`	`Cairenn`	`it's been an ongoing joke between us for a while now`
`00:37.45`	`kergoth`	`krka: np`
`00:38.28`	`Iriel`	`It's nice to know he blames me for something 8-)`
`00:38.34`	`Iriel`	`I'll have to find some more bugs to send him`
`00:38.34`	`Cairenn`	`;)`
`00:38.41`	`Iriel`	`You know, in payment`
`00:39.52`	`Cairenn`	`heh`
`00:39.58`	`Anduin\|Here`	`send him the CLayoutFrame bug that yatlas throws me`
`00:40.33`	`Iriel`	`make a simple test case that reproduces it, and I will 8-)`
`00:40.44`	`Anduin\|Here`	`mmm, load yatlas`
`00:40.54`	`Anduin\|Here`	`boom, error :P`
`00:41.01`	`kergoth`	`hmmm... i wonder`
`00:41.06`	`End`	`supposedly it is fixed for 1.9`
`00:41.07`	`Iriel`	`has yatlas been updated post-1.9 for scaling changes?`
`00:41.19`	`End`	`not yet`
`00:41.38`	`kergoth`	`oh, hey. yatlas rocks :)`
`00:41.40`	`Anduin\|Here`	`heh. so end knows the error i speak of?`
`00:41.49`	`End`	`yes`
`00:41.58`	`kergoth`	`when are we getting party blips in it, btw? ;)`
`00:41.58`	`Anduin\|Here`	`glad to know im not crazy`
`00:42.12`	`End`	`although, hmm, does that mean you run a mac?`
`00:42.30`	`Anduin\|Here`	`i do`
`00:42.36`	`End`	`hold on a sec`
`00:42.45`	`End`	`I'll find the post`
`00:42.47`	`End`	`if it is still up`
`00:43.46`	`End`	`oh yeah, bah`
`00:43.52`	`End`	`I forgot, forums are down`
`00:44.10`	`kremonte`	`3 epics this run, 6 epics last run... i love molten core :D`
`00:44.21`	`ToastTheif`	`what's Yatlas?`
`00:44.31`	`ToastTheif`	`I know of Atlas`
`00:44.39`	`End`	`it's..kinda like Atlas`
`00:44.50`	`ToastTheif`	`what's different?`
`00:45.25`	`End`	`but it gets its textures from in game...and instead of instance only has the contintents (actually, it can show more, like battlegrounds, but I haven't enabled those)`
`00:45.28`	`kergoth`	`ToastTheif: its like a world map that looks the way the minimap looks.. more like the way the world really is`
`00:45.59`	`Anduin\|Here`	`be nice if it worked similar to alphamap`
`00:46.01`	`End`	`the problem with instances is most are just "buildings"`
`00:46.37`	`End`	`Anduin: in time! I made it more...modular I guess you could call it. so I have a big full screen map now too`
`00:46.48`	`End`	`I just gotta make the different modes`
`00:46.55`	`ToastTheif`	`where's the lin to Yatlas?`
`00:47.01`	`ToastTheif`	`link`
`00:47.09`	`kergoth`	`i use it instead of alphamap today. set transparency and add a line to the code to do a 'goto player' when the frame is shown`
`00:47.11`	`kergoth`	`:)`
`00:47.46`	`End`	`http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=1454`
`00:47.46`	`Cairenn`	`since we're talking about YAtlas, my turn to ask a question ... why isn't it up on WoWI? pout`
`00:47.46`	`End`	`I was gonna add a track player`
`00:47.46`	`End`	`Cairenn: next version`
`00:47.48`	`End`	`next version I will upload`
`00:47.50`	`Cairenn`	`sulks alright ....`
`00:48.08`	`Cairenn`	`;)`
`00:48.13`	`End`	`I was gonna do WoWI right after curse, but it never got on curse for some reason, then I kinda forgot about it`
`00:48.52`	`Anduin\|Here`	`did net ever confirm it?`
`00:49.15`	`End`	`kergoth: anyways, I was gonna add a track player in addition to goto, but I ran out of room to put the button without making the frame itself bigger`
`00:49.23`	`kergoth`	`hehe`
`00:49.25`	`kergoth`	`thats cool`
`00:49.31`	`End`	`I never heard anything after I submitted`
`00:49.56`	`Anduin\|Here`	`check now. he confirmed a bunch recently`
`00:49.59`	`ToastTheif`	`so`
`00:50.08`	`End`	`ok, checking`
`00:50.09`	`ToastTheif`	`Yatals can do instance maps too?`
`00:50.09`	`Anduin\|Here`	`if not he's in #cosmostesters right now, u could go bug him`
`00:50.47`	`End`	`I wonder if I should just resubmit. I first submitted like two months ago.`
`00:51.06`	`ToastTheif`	`End, does Yatals also display instance maps?`
`00:51.31`	`End`	`ToastTheif: Not yet.`
`00:51.39`	`ToastTheif`	`ah`
`00:51.40`	`ToastTheif`	`well`
`00:51.43`	`End`	`instance are a helluvalot more complicated`
`00:51.50`	`End`	`for the way I want to show at least`
`00:51.54`	`ToastTheif`	`I'll hold out til you finish that ;)`
`00:52.17`	`ToastTheif`	`it's very cool though`
`00:54.03`	`Anduin\|Here`	`there we go. I got a full hook tracker now. it loads first using the ! name method and tells you what addons hook what`
`00:54.17`	`Anduin\|Here`	`well, ok so it's not all that`
`00:54.31`	`Anduin\|Here`	`only tracks functions hooked by Sea`
`00:54.51`	`Anduin\|Here`	`but one they're hooked it tracks any non sea hooks on top`
`00:57.26`	`kergoth`	`Iriel: having read a bit,`
`00:57.28`	`kergoth`	`er`
`00:57.29`	`kergoth`	`damn enter key`
`00:58.05`	`kergoth`	`'...' in lua 5.1 is a statement, not a real object, and using it gives you near direct access to the elements of the stack, no heap allocations at all`
`00:58.08`	`kergoth`	`which is good news`
`00:58.32`	`Iriel`	`That's what we figured`
`00:58.39`	`kergoth`	`yeah, wanted to confirm though`
`00:58.40`	`Iriel`	`Except that you can't nest them`
`00:58.49`	`Iriel`	`or is there a syntax for that?`
`00:59.09`	`kergoth`	`there isnt. rici proposed adding a way to give a psuedo name to ..., but i dont think that went in`
`00:59.24`	`tyndral`	`so, Cair.. did Dolby think my suggestion sucked, or did you forget to pass it on? :p`
`00:59.26`	`kergoth`	`something like function a(foo, [bar]) end would name '...' as 'bar'`
`00:59.30`	`kergoth`	`or so`
`01:00.08`	*** join/#wowi-lounge id` (n=tom@hellsblade.xs4all.nl)
`01:04.07`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Plorkyeran (i=Knightki@adsl-71-141-99-197.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)`
`01:20.21`	`Iriel`	`1b`
`01:20.25`	`Iriel`	`ack, mispaste`
`01:24.05`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Trilian (n=Miranda@dyndsl-085-016-000-164.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`01:25.37`	`End`	`2c?`
`01:51.26`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`trying to buy a wow cd key on ebay has proven to be quite troublesome.`
`01:52.02`	`Cairenn`	`and you figure the people in this channel will care .... why?`
`01:52.33`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`dunno, maybe someone knows an easier way to get one:)`
`01:52.45`	`Cairenn`	`go out and buy the game`
`01:53.09`	`Cairenn`	`easiest and most legal way I know :p`
`01:53.33`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`is doing it the ebay way illegel?`
`01:53.39`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`illegal.`
`01:54.24`	`Iriel`	`pretty much, unless it's an unopened box`
`01:54.31`	`Iriel`	`Accounts are non-transferrable`
`01:55.39`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`i'm not interested in an account, heh. Well not directly.`
`01:56.03`	`Iriel`	`thus my box comment`
`01:56.10`	`Cairenn`	`so if you don't want an account, why would you need a cd key?`
`01:56.24`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`to create one,`
`01:56.29`	`Iriel`	`he's after an UNUSED wow cd key`
`01:56.40`	`Cairenn`	`I know Iriel ...`
`01:56.43`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`01:56.59`	`Iriel`	`that's going to be tricky to verify before sending payment`
`01:57.37`	`Cairenn`	`Okay, so you don't want an account, thus you won't buy the game, instead you want to buy just a CD key so you can create one .... none of that makes any sense, you realize`
`01:59.02`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`no no, I want an account, but I want to creat my own with an unused cd key. I'm all for buying the box but that means I have to wait until monday.`
`01:59.15`	`Cairenn`	`ah`
`01:59.34`	`Cairenn`	`no stores around there open on Sundays? (Canadian here, used to Sunday shopping)`
`02:00.18`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`oh, i'm canadian, just didn't think the mall would be open on sunday? shrug.`
`02:00.48`	`Cairenn`	`Where are you? What province?`
`02:00.57`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`Nova scotia.`
`02:01.13`	`Cairenn`	`NS has Sunday shopping, last I was down there ...`
`02:01.44`	`Cairenn`	`you should be able to find an EB, Staples, Walmart, Future Shop open`
`02:01.55`	`Cairenn`	`any of which carry it`
`02:02.00`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`neat, I tend to avoid shopping at all costs. Last time Iwas out to walmart was to get my picture taken.`
`02:02.28`	`Cairenn`	`Naw, go hit up Walmart ... the one here is open until 11pm, and it's only 10 down there, so you'd still have time to get there`
`02:02.45`	`Cairenn`	`plus a lot of stores are going to midnight shopping at this point, with christmas coming`
`02:02.58`	`Cairenn`	`either way, if you can't get there tonight, you should be able to go pick it up tomorrow`
`02:04.30`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`aw, sappose. I'ma still see what ebay says tonight. ever sence my friend wanted his account back i've been mmoless. and it blows big time.`
`02:04.53`	`Cairenn`	`even if you do buy one over ebay, you won't get it tonight anyway`
`02:05.13`	`Cairenn`	`you'd have to wait for it to be sent to you, it'll actually take you longer`
`02:05.35`	id`	`the words "friend" and "account" dont mix`
`02:05.41`	id`	`period`
`02:05.50`	id`	`:)`
`02:06.11`	id`	`~ugt`
`02:06.12`	`purl`	`somebody said ugt was Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant.`
`02:06.20`	id`	`(UGT) Good Night`
`02:06.32`	`Cairenn`	`night Indu`
`02:06.38`	`ToastTheif`	`what`
`02:06.47`	id`	`3am getting hungry, bad to eat at night :E`
`02:06.49`	`Iriel`	`Dammit, now I need to go create a rogue`
`02:06.54`	id`	`so, sleepy time`
`02:06.55`	`Iriel`	`Stupid combo points`
`02:06.58`	`Iriel`	`8-)`
`02:07.12`	`Cairenn`	`heh, poor Iriel, it's a tough life :p`
`02:07.15`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`hehe, I regret giving it back to him. hes one of them altaholics.`
`02:08.40`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`you know, get to 30 then ask some stupid question like, "how does the warlock teleport work?". Blah.`
`02:10.44`	`Cide`	`god`
`02:10.51`	`Cide`	`someone unbreak the forums so I have something to do`
`02:11.30`	`Iriel`	`Cide: What classes do you have on the test server?`
`02:11.44`	`Cide`	`just priest`
`02:11.53`	`Cide`	`just copied over my main`
`02:11.58`	`Cide`	`I have a 36 rogue I could copy`
`02:12.57`	`Iriel`	`Anything would work really`
`02:13.16`	`Iriel`	`I'd just like someone to try playing with the new stat rings (Once I finish one more thing) and see how much they hate it`
`02:13.36`	`ToastTheif`	`the circle health/mana bars?`
`02:14.02`	`Iriel`	`Yes, the H.U.D style ones`
`02:14.07`	`ToastTheif`	`mmm`
`02:14.14`	`ToastTheif`	`I hope those turn out good`
`02:14.17`	`ToastTheif`	`they look fun`
`02:15.06`	`kremonte`	`i'm a bar guy`
`02:15.06`	`kremonte`	`:(`
`02:15.26`	`ToastTheif`	`Vertical Bars seemed like a cool idea`
`02:15.41`	`ToastTheif`	`no one ever really did anything about it though`
`02:16.44`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`i tried playing with vertical health bars with discord, it seemed rather odd to play with.`
`02:18.14`	`Codayus`	`Hmmm`
`02:19.28`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`I just want a non-complicated group window. Maybe like everquest. Every group window I came up with always seem to have tons going on.`
`02:19.36`	`kremonte`	`Cide, when in a raid does CTRA increase memory usage a good deal?`
`02:19.47`	`kremonte`	`i was getting 15kb/s+ increasing rate during MC today`
`02:19.59`	`Iriel`	`Well, if someone wants to be brave`
`02:20.00`	`Cide`	`I haven't had that happen`
`02:20.07`	`Iriel`	`http://www.vigilance-committee.org/wow/downloads/`
`02:20.09`	`kremonte`	`bah. my game is broken then :(`
`02:20.12`	`Codayus`	`Mmm, every time I start fiddling with unit frames, I always thing: "Hey, this bit of info would be kind of nice to have, and it won't take up TOO much screen space!"`
`02:20.15`	`Iriel`	`StatRings-0.6.1dev-10900.zip`
`02:20.35`	`Cide`	`I get like 1kb/s when I raid usually`
`02:20.46`	`kremonte`	`yep. my game is broken. WoW hates me.`
`02:20.49`	`Cide`	`haha`
`02:20.51`	`Iriel`	`Note that REQUIRES 1.9`
`02:20.53`	`Codayus`	`Then I repeat that process 30 times, and end up with ugly cluttered mess.`
`02:20.55`	`kremonte`	`Zul'Gurub hates me too, and i think that's related`
`02:21.53`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`uh huh I feel your pain, sometimes it even extends to other areas of the UI:(`
`02:26.04`	`ToastTheif`	`J³®³мΨ`
`02:28.40`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`does the unified LFG/trade channels mean the channels will span across IF/SW like one channel?`
`02:28.52`	`Iriel`	`yes`
`02:28.55`	`Iriel`	`And Darnassus`
`02:29.01`	`Iriel`	`Everyone hates the night elves for some reason`
`02:29.47`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`I didn't mean to exclude:p my main was a 60 ne rogue.`
`02:33.06`	`ToastTheif`	`yawn`
`02:33.18`	`ToastTheif`	`does 1.9 save keybindings per char?`
`02:33.25`	`Iriel`	`if you want it to`
`02:33.31`	`ToastTheif`	`mmm cool`
`02:33.42`	`Codayus`	`My first 60 was a NE rogue too. And I've gone back to Darnassus all of...uh...a dozen times since I left the newbie zone...`
`02:34.12`	`Codayus`	`And I think all of those were to visit the alchemy trainer. :-)`
`02:34.36`	`ToastTheif`	`no need for myBindings then I guess`
`02:34.38`	`Codayus`	`Honestly, apart from the alchemy and weapons trainers, whats the point of the place?`
`02:34.50`	`Iriel`	`There are some quests there`
`02:34.54`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`neat background music.`
`02:35.40`	`Codayus`	`Iriel: Heh, I guess. Somehow, I've always managed to bypass them though. I've been into the BFD instance a grand total of...zero times. oO`
`02:35.52`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`better place to hang then ironforge. I always hung out at southshore -.-`
`02:37.04`	`Codayus`	`Well, it IS the closest capital city to...hmm. DM I guess. Maybe Silithus, not sure..`
`02:37.15`	`Iriel`	`The BFD quests come out of auberdine anyway`
`02:37.16`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`you should. the last boss and some turtles almost owned a 60 rogue, lol.`
`02:37.57`	`Codayus`	`Once it gets an AH, maybe it'll see more popularity. Then again, IF is still closer to Strat/Scholo and the entire BRM set of instances, so...`
`02:38.56`	`Codayus`	`Iriel: Oh? I thought there was 1-2 given next to the alchemy trainer in Darnassus. maybe from some...argent dawn guys?`
`02:39.10`	`Iriel`	`oh yes`
`02:39.14`	`Iriel`	`You're righy`
`02:39.27`	`Iriel`	`the odd incomplete-feeling argent dawn quest givers`
`02:39.40`	`Codayus`	`Heh, at least they HAVE NPCs there.`
`02:39.57`	`Codayus`	`The empty argent dawn building near the SW cathedral is just kinda freaky.`
`02:39.57`	`Iriel`	`Did they add another mailbox, or do we still only have one?`
`02:39.59`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`SW has a AD building but no NPCs;p`
`02:40.05`	`Codayus`	`My theory is the scourge kidnapped them. :-)`
`02:40.32`	`Codayus`	`Where IS the Darnassus AH in 1.9? Anyone know?`
`02:40.34`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`I was hoping for a "gone for lunch" sign inside but none:(`
`02:40.42`	`Iriel`	`The merchant area`
`02:40.52`	`Iriel`	`bottom floor of one of the existing buildings`
`02:40.57`	`Codayus`	`Hmm`
`02:41.26`	`Iriel`	`Cool, my mage is L4 now`
`02:41.31`	`Iriel`	`what am I saying, rogue, not mage`
`02:41.47`	`ToastTheif`	`rogues lvl damn fast`
`02:48.19`	`Iriel`	`it's a real shame I can't draw`
`02:48.31`	`kremonte`	`haha i started a big argument in my guild`
`02:48.37`	`Iriel`	`statrings would look much better with some artwork`
`02:49.05`	`kremonte`	`Fun Fact: Tell your guild you're rolling on Perdition's next time it drops when you're a caster, and watch the ensuing fight. It's very funny!`
`02:49.20`	`Iriel`	`http://www.vigilance-committee.org/wow/downloads/random/srings3.jpg`
`02:49.50`	`Iriel`	`Though normally for full health/mana it's faded`
`02:50.19`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`what are the top circles for?`
`02:50.23`	`Iriel`	`pets`
`02:50.26`	`ToastTheif`	`so you can't have a full circle?`
`02:50.41`	`Iriel`	`The screenshot has everything on 'full'`
`02:50.49`	`Iriel`	`People didn't seem to like the full circles as much`
`02:50.56`	`ToastTheif`	`mmm`
`02:51.05`	`Iriel`	`http://www.vigilance-committee.org/wow/downloads/random/sframes.jpg`
`02:51.06`	`ToastTheif`	`I'd perfer full circles, personally`
`02:51.10`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`what about target mana/hp?`
`02:51.12`	`Iriel`	`An earlier all circle version`
`02:51.24`	`Iriel`	`Target appears inside your ring`
`02:51.29`	`Iriel`	`with darker and thinner rings`
`02:51.45`	`Iriel`	`(Which need more opacity next time im in tehre because they're too dark)`
`02:52.07`	`Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ`	`I think people are taking the whole circle thing a little to far. Neat though, iriel.`
`02:52.16`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`just a thought but you "could" out them below the standard rings (just like the pet bars but below instead of on-top)`
`02:52.45`	`Iriel`	`Yes, but I like the side-by-side because it's good for judging if I'm about to die`
`02:52.51`	`Iriel`	`or if they'll die first`
`02:53.02`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`true`
`02:55.20`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`so when will this version be out for public onsuption (on the test servers of course)`
`02:55.31`	`Iriel`	`It already is`
`02:55.38`	`Iriel`	`http://www.vigilance-committee.org/wow/downloads/`
`02:55.50`	`Iriel`	`StatRings-0.6.1dev-10900.zip`
`02:56.01`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`awesome`
`02:56.34`	`Iriel`	`I've been staring at it too long so I've lost objectivity, but i'd welcome feedback (iriel@vigilance-committee.org if i'm not paying attention here)`
`02:59.31`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`will do`
`03:07.56`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol\|alt (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`03:49.36`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`04:02.04`	`Anduin\|Work`	`ya, looks like they finally nuked ooz channels in 1.9`
`04:02.53`	`Anduin\|Work`	`i assume they figure linked ah will make up for the trade channel`
`04:03.14`	`Anduin\|Work`	`and whatever lfg they're coming up with in 1.10 with make up for lfg/den`
`04:04.58`	`MentalPower\|PC`	`I guess that means the we'll have a skinnier Channel Manager`
`04:05.20`	`Anduin\|Work`	`guess i finally gave them enough information via the wiki that they figured it was worth shutting down`
`04:07.28`	`Anduin\|Work`	`lil skinier, ya.`
`04:07.42`	`Anduin\|Work`	`less channel issues to debug tho`
`04:08.08`	`Anduin\|Work`	`once i finally had it all simplified down to the point anyone could use it :/`
`04:09.52`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, no more OOZ channels?`
`04:10.21`	`Cairenn`	`Frankly ... thank god`
`04:10.39`	`Cairenn`	`One less stupidity on the forums :p`
`04:10.52`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, I kind of enjoyed hanging out in IF trade while farming out in Un'Goro or wherever...`
`04:11.00`	`Codayus`	`Oh well, small loss. :-)`
`04:11.10`	`Anduin\|Work`	`well, for guildies, that's fine. but it was a life saver when a pickup grp lost a member in the mid of a raid`
`04:11.32`	`Codayus`	`Oh, yeah, I forgot that.`
`04:12.13`	`Anduin\|Work`	`guess well have to get more people to use CTA`
`04:12.20`	`Codayus`	`I think my server may be odd, but pretty much all the lvl 60s on the Alliance side (not sure about horde) hangs out on a channel called endgame.`
`04:12.38`	`Anduin\|Work`	`ya, thats odd`
`04:13.08`	`Codayus`	`That's where all pickup raids are advertised; most people will also advertise on IF LFG if they're around, but you pretty much never see an endgame raid advertised only in a LFG channel.`
`04:13.48`	`kremonte`	`endgame as in MC~?`
`04:13.52`	`Codayus`	`It's really quite nice - not sure how it got started, nor why other servers don't use it.`
`04:14.29`	`Codayus`	`Endgame as in Baron runs onwards. Pickup MC/Ony raids do get advertised there. Sometimes people even look for Mauradon groups, but they usually get yelled at for that.`
`04:16.38`	`Codayus`	`Hmm.`
`04:19.40`	`Codayus`	`2048x1536 is really kinda...fuzzy on this monitor. I wonder why. :-/`
`04:37.30`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Plorkyeran[Away] (i=Knightki@adsl-71-141-99-197.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)`
`04:45.35`	`Legorol`	`noobie question about Shaman's Ancestrall recall`
`04:45.49`	`Legorol`	`does it share the place that it's locked to with the Hearthstone?`
`04:45.56`	`Legorol`	`or can the two be set to two different places`
`04:49.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`04:51.51`	`Codayus`	`The former, I think.`
`04:51.58`	`Codayus`	`And you mean Astral Recall, I think. :-)`
`04:52.32`	`ToastTheif`	`hey End, you still here?`
`04:53.01`	`ToastTheif`	`does that mean freenode is going down?`
`04:53.39`	`ToastTheif`	`gah`
`04:53.50`	`ToastTheif`	`how the hell do I get timestamps on for Xchat dammit`
`04:53.57`	`Codayus`	`Easy!`
`04:54.01`	`Codayus`	`You switch to irssi.`
`04:54.35`	`ToastTheif`	`no =P`
`04:54.47`	`ToastTheif`	`BTW..`
`04:54.57`	`ToastTheif`	`somone just released a pwnage map mod`
`04:54.59`	`ToastTheif`	`http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=1645#comments`
`04:55.01`	`Codayus`	`See, here I am, trying to help you. But do you listen? sigh`
`04:55.03`	`ToastTheif`	`it's omfg great`
`04:55.35`	`Codayus`	`Hey, that doesn't look too bad.`
`04:55.57`	`ToastTheif`	`like I said, it fing pwns`
`04:56.48`	`ToastTheif`	`it seems there are a few bugs with the initial release`
`04:57.04`	`ToastTheif`	`but it will be the map mod I think anyway ;)`
`04:59.51`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, the author needs better taste in addon sites to upload too. :-)`
`05:01.40`	`ToastTheif`	`ya`
`05:01.47`	`ToastTheif`	`I hate worldofwar`
`05:01.58`	`ToastTheif`	`WoWI or at least CG`
`05:02.03`	`Codayus`	`nod`
`05:02.26`	`ToastTheif`	`I rarely check ui.worldofwar`
`05:02.33`	`ToastTheif`	`Devla pointed it out to me lol`
`05:02.58`	`Codayus`	`I never check it - the only reason I ever see it is if I've followed a link there.`
`05:03.04`	`ToastTheif`	`mhmm`
`05:03.29`	`ToastTheif`	`I need to get all my addons in order`
`05:03.38`	`ToastTheif`	`computer will be here on monday`
`05:08.46`	`ToastTheif`	`65 addons ><`
`05:11.19`	`ToastTheif`	`erm`
`05:11.26`	`ToastTheif`	`in 1.8`
`05:11.37`	`ToastTheif`	`they took out cross-faction inspecting`
`05:11.54`	`ToastTheif`	`did they also take out the ability yo increase inspect range?`
`05:13.41`	`ToastTheif`	`(especially Iriel)`
`05:13.43`	`Cair\|wow`	`Iriel, you there?`
`05:14.28`	`Cair\|wow`	`to what?`
`05:14.44`	`Cair\|wow`	`about inspecting? I believe so on both, yes`
`05:14.53`	`ToastTheif`	`ah damn`
`05:15.07`	`ToastTheif`	`well, least it gets rid of another addon shrugs`
`05:15.25`	`Codayus`	`Uh, no, actually.`
`05:15.25`	`ToastTheif`	`byebye InspectorAce`
`05:15.35`	`Codayus`	`Not only did they not remove the ability to instpect at long distances...`
`05:15.44`	`Codayus`	`...I THINK they added the ability to the default UI.`
`05:16.19`	`Codayus`	`I use InspectorAce so that I can bind a key to inspecting, so I'm not 100% sure on whether the default UI can inspect at long ranges.`
`05:16.55`	`Codayus`	`But you certainly can as of 1.8 using InspectorAce. :-)`
`05:16.56`	`ToastTheif`	`I see nothing in the patch notes`
`05:17.42`	`ToastTheif`	`nope`
`05:17.46`	`ToastTheif`	`nothing in the patch notes`
`05:18.14`	`Codayus`	`(The cross-faction inspecting is dead, however. Which is a pity; I never quite understood what the problem with it was. Maybe if I PvPed more...)`
`05:18.28`	`ToastTheif`	`I liked it`
`05:18.31`	`kergoth`	`i miss that. it was nice`
`05:18.41`	`kergoth`	`"This is free software including free source code. Install solely at your own risk. Consult your attorney and/or chaplain regarding legality and/or morality in your locality."`
`05:19.25`	`ToastTheif`	`Kergoth`
`05:19.34`	`ToastTheif`	`do you know if they changed the inspect range in 1.8?`
`05:20.37`	`kergoth`	`don't know`
`05:20.43`	`ToastTheif`	`meh`
`05:21.07`	`Codayus`	`I'll test it for you in about 20 minutes.`
`05:21.10`	`Codayus`	`:-)`
`05:21.19`	`Codayus`	`(If you haven't discovered the answer by then.)`
`05:22.12`	`ToastTheif`	`well`
`05:22.19`	`ToastTheif`	`I still don't have WoW yet`
`05:22.26`	`ToastTheif`	`so I probally won't =P`
`05:25.07`	`Cide`	`http://www.ctmod.net/betadownloads.ct for a CTRA usable on test`
`05:32.23`	`ToastTheif`	`alright`
`05:32.38`	`ToastTheif`	`54-55 addons depending on the whole inspect range thing`
`05:34.56`	`ToastTheif`	`shurgs`
`05:36.10`	`ToastTheif`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:36.32`	`ToastTheif`	`somone is very bad at the english language...`
`05:36.38`	`ToastTheif`	`at least they're informative`
`05:38.13`	`ToastTheif`	`55 addons, 54 when 1.9 goes live`
`05:40.16`	`ToastTheif`	`wow`
`05:40.32`	`ToastTheif`	`I totally missed the addons can now load per char thing in 1.9`
`05:40.37`	`ToastTheif`	`there goes another addon`
`05:45.27`	`ToastTheif`	`what does that mean`
`05:46.52`	`ToastTheif`	`Hey Kergoth`
`05:47.02`	`ToastTheif`	`which Visor is stable?`
`05:47.13`	`ToastTheif`	`er, which one should I use anyway`
`05:53.35`	`kergoth`	`i'm using the most recent release`
`05:53.38`	`kergoth`	`works well`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cair\|wow (n=Cairenn@CPE001217452e29-CM014500004571.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Anduin\|Work (n=KarlKFI@ip70-181-69-252.oc.oc.cox.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge RedcXe (n=user@cpe-72-225-160-94.si.res.rr.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge RasmusKL (i=RasmusKL@wnpgmb09dc1-119-73.dynamic.mts.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.10`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Iriel (n=daniel@adsl-66-123-190-42.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Jeebs\|So\|ZzZ (i=Jeebs@blk-224-159-44.eastlink.ca) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge age (n=nothx@pool-138-88-13-177.res.east.verizon.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Irishbruin (n=Irishbru@ip68-110-153-94.hr.hr.cox.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Eraphine\|DiscoDo (n=Eraphine@brenna.human.cornell.edu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Vizir (n=Vizir@CPE-70-92-246-76.wi.res.rr.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower\|PC (n=chatzill@eacb01-00-crlnpr-24-48-144-65.miamfl.adelphia.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MentalPower (n=void@eacb01-00-crlnpr-24-48-144-65.miamfl.adelphia.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.11`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Auzhia (n=chatzill@user-0cev015.cable.mindspring.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zeeg (n=wguru@63.147.183.137) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge kremonte (n=help@ool-18bba44d.dyn.optonline.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Mondinga (n=morquan@24.197.195.41) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge End (n=end@c-67-161-159-86.hsd1.co.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge dukeku (i=dukeku@c-67-160-162-146.hsd1.or.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ghent (i=ghent@fangorn.starshadow.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge BadMojo (n=mojo@yes.rps.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge cladhaire (i=jnwhiteh@fairfax.dreamhost.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tain (i=Shrubber@c-66-31-196-19.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kiliek (i=wwarneck@stfu.mpls.mn.us) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Codayus (n=cody@chaos.net.nz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.13`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge kergoth (n=kergoth@c-24-118-219-25.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`05:57.13`	`*** mode/#WoWI-lounge [+o Cair\|wow] by irc.freenode.net`
`05:58.53`	`ToastTheif`	`er`
`05:58.53`	`ToastTheif`	`which would be the most current?`
`05:58.53`	`ToastTheif`	`Rowne's?`
`05:58.53`	`ToastTheif`	`or the person who took over?`
`05:59.16`	`ToastTheif`	`Tain's`
`06:02.16`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge zeetg (n=wguru@63.147.183.137)`
`06:02.29`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Auzhia_ (n=chatzill@user-0cev015.cable.mindspring.com)`
`06:04.08`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Skottie (n=Irishbru@ip68-110-153-94.hr.hr.cox.net)`
`06:06.45`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Ghent (i=ghent@fangorn.starshadow.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`06:08.44`	`*** mode/#WoWI-lounge [-o Cair\|wow] by ChanServ`
`06:09.09`	`*** mode/#WoWI-lounge [+o Cair] by ChanServ`
`06:09.42`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge kremonte (n=help@ool-18bba44d.dyn.optonline.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`06:11.51`	`Codayus`	`ToastTheif: Found your answer yet?`
`06:11.57`	`ToastTheif`	`no`
`06:12.01`	`Cair`	`kergoth: you around?`
`06:12.35`	`ToastTheif`	`ya, I need to know which version you meant, Ker =P`
`06:12.48`	`ToastTheif`	`er, Codayus`
`06:12.54`	`Cair`	`Iriel`
`06:13.03`	`Iriel`	`(Not literally, mind)`
`06:13.10`	`ToastTheif`	`I found a forum that said they increased the inspect range in 1.9`
`06:13.11`	`Codayus`	`Mmmm, hot chocalate = uber.`
`06:13.16`	`ToastTheif`	`is that true Iriel?`
`06:13.26`	`Cair`	`imo, the target ones need to have less opacity`
`06:13.33`	`Codayus`	`Increased it? Hmm, odd...`
`06:13.34`	`Cair`	`I found it hard to see the target ones`
`06:13.54`	`Iriel`	`Cair; I noticed that too, I'll be changing it next time i'm in there.. thanks for giving it a try.`
`06:13.58`	`Cair`	`np`
`06:14.07`	`Cair`	`:)`
`06:14.28`	`Iriel`	`ToastTheif : Hm, I suspect it's just a result of some other change to the game mechanics.. The 'official' inspect range is unchanged`
`06:15.04`	`ToastTheif`	`I've seen reports that as long as the target is in sight, you can view the inspection panel for it`
`06:15.13`	`Iriel`	`That is I believe the case`
`06:15.15`	`ToastTheif`	`so I guess you'll have to test it Coday ;)`
`06:15.21`	`Iriel`	`As long as your client knows abotu it,you can inspect it`
`06:16.14`	`Cair`	`why does irc hate me?`
`06:16.27`	`kergoth`	`were you mean to it?`
`06:16.31`	`Codayus`	`Hmmm`
`06:16.34`	`Cair`	`don't think so`
`06:16.42`	`ToastTheif`	`Kergoth, which version did you mean by 'the lastest'?`
`06:16.49`	`Codayus`	`Logged in with an alt I abandoned I while back with no addons...and...`
`06:16.49`	`ToastTheif`	`Tain's or Rowne's?`
`06:16.53`	`Cair`	`but chanserv won't let me set bela's level high enough to auto-op`
`06:16.56`	`Codayus`	`...dude, the default interface is teh ugly!`
`06:16.56`	`kergoth`	`rowne isnt maintaining it anymore`
`06:16.59`	`kergoth`	`its tains now`
`06:17.01`	`Codayus`	`I always manage to forget that...`
`06:17.04`	`kergoth`	`so thats what i use`
`06:17.08`	`ToastTheif`	`ok`
`06:17.28`	`kergoth`	`Codayus: me too. once in a while i see it again and shudder`
`06:17.51`	`kergoth`	`Cair: hmm.. i've never had a problem with that. you know that you can adjust the levels for things as well as adjust the level of users, righ?`
`06:18.00`	`kergoth`	`so if you cant bring bela to the autoop, drop autoop to bela`
`06:18.09`	`Cair`	`hrm`
`06:18.11`	`Codayus`	`ToastTheif: Okay, targeted someone miles away, right clicked on their portrait and inspect was greyed out.`
`06:18.16`	`kergoth`	`going from memory here, its been a while since i messed with it, but i dont recall having any problems`
`06:18.18`	`Codayus`	`Manually typed /inspect, and it worked though.`
`06:18.24`	`ToastTheif`	`aah, ok`
`06:18.26`	`ToastTheif`	`well`
`06:18.37`	`ToastTheif`	`I'll have to update InspectorAce I guess`
`06:18.58`	`ToastTheif`	`mostly to get rid of all the extra crap`
`06:19.12`	`ToastTheif`	`and make it only un-grey + key binding`
`06:19.50`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, that reminds me - speaking of visor, it doesn't have any ability to place artwork or backdrops, does it?`
`06:19.57`	`Codayus`	`(The way DART does.)`
`06:21.55`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge BadMojo (n=mojo@yes.rps.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`06:22.40`	`Cairenn`	`okay, why can't I set the access level higher than X ... I'm the owner of the channel, I've added people to the access list at level X+1 before ... why is it being stupid today?`
`06:22.53`	`kergoth`	`Codayus: i'm pretty sure it does. there's an example of usign it to texture the chat editbox to make confab unnecessary..`
`06:24.25`	`Codayus`	`I don't THINK that's what I want; it's not that I want to change the texture of an existing frame, I want to create my own (purely decorative) frame. I think.`
`06:26.07`	`kergoth`	`afaik visor doesnt include frames. its the ultimate tool for manipulating frames, it doesnt provide a pile of fluff, that'd be against rowne's development style. i'd think thatd be best off in a seperate addon, then use visor to move them around and parent them and stuff`
`06:26.27`	`Codayus`	`That's more or less what I thought.`
`06:27.34`	`Codayus`	`All I'm doing is creating a simple backdrop for a chunk of the screen where I stick all my action buttons and minimap. I'm currently using DART, but it's a bit overkill. :-)`
`06:29.43`	`Cairenn`	`DUH`
`06:29.57`	`Cairenn`	`I hadn't identified myself to chanserv, only to nickserv`
`06:42.16`	`ToastTheif`	`DNA is a lie`
`06:42.57`	`Cair`	`unh ... huh?`
`06:44.39`	`ToastTheif`	`mhmm`
`06:45.55`	`Cair`	`and what prompts that sudden declaration?`
`06:46.07`	`kremonte`	`i agree.`
`06:46.12`	`Codayus`	`A paternity suit?`
`06:46.19`	`kremonte`	`while 1 { message("DNA IS A LIE"); }`
`06:46.25`	`Cair`	`heh, that's what I was wondering, Codayus`
`06:48.02`	`Cair`	`ToastTheif ?`
`06:48.05`	`ToastTheif`	`I 16`
`06:48.09`	`ToastTheif`	`Im 16*`
`06:48.15`	`ToastTheif`	`I don't have any kids`
`06:48.22`	`Cair`	`a statement like that, out of the blue ... come on, you've got to tell us what the hell you are talking about`
`06:48.29`	`ToastTheif`	`well`
`06:48.40`	`ToastTheif`	`I just decided it could all be a lie`
`06:48.40`	`Cair`	`HAH! 16 doesn't mean you can't (biologically) be a father`
`06:49.01`	`ToastTheif`	`I mean, maybe the government made it all up`
`06:49.11`	`ToastTheif`	`and millions of people were wrongly convicted`
`06:49.19`	`Codayus`	`...`
`06:49.41`	`ToastTheif`	`just like the whole landing on the moon thing`
`06:49.56`	`Cair`	`bull ... DNA testing has actually gone a very long way to exonerating people who have been falsely imprisoned`
`06:50.54`	`Cair`	`and goes a long way to making sure that the wrong people aren't convicted unjustly`
`06:51.26`	`ToastTheif`	`I dunno man`
`06:51.33`	`ToastTheif`	`the government is tricky like that`
`06:51.41`	`Cair`	`now, landing on the moon? I give you that that might have been made up :p`
`06:57.25`	`Cair`	`lalala`
`07:14.18`	`Anduin\|Work`	`mmhmm`
`07:14.25`	`Cair`	`lalala`
`07:14.33`	`Anduin\|Work`	`moo?`
`07:14.42`	`Cair`	`purr`
`07:14.50`	`Anduin\|Work`	`roar`
`07:23.55`	`ToastTheif`	`gnight`
`07:33.39`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge futrtrubl (n=not@24-117-41-234.cpe.cableone.net)`
`07:37.15`	`kergoth`	`ooh, new beta of itemrack has switching on events, like rogue stealth and warrior stance`
`07:37.18`	`kergoth`	`and it works, too`
`07:38.49`	`Cair`	`:)`
`07:51.05`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Matt@adsl-1-74-197.lft.bellsouth.net)`
`07:51.23`	`Tem`	`alright, so for the fastest progression of all time, my guild took down garr tonight`
`07:51.35`	`Cair`	`grats!`
`07:51.45`	`Tem`	`so this is our second night in MC`
`07:51.52`	`Tem`	`(our first instance)`
`07:51.53`	`kergoth`	`yay, grats`
`07:53.15`	`Tem`	`and we've taken down luci, mag, gehennas and garr`
`07:53.30`	`Cair`	`rocking right along, aren't you?`
`07:53.35`	`Tem`	`oh and we've taken down Ony too`
`07:56.11`	`Cair`	`It's really bizarre to me. Back in EQ, I was GL of one of the top guilds on our server. We were always right up at the front, pushing to figure out how to beat the high end encounters. And the thrill of victory when we did ...`
`07:56.31`	`Tem`	`now you aren't even max level`
`07:56.36`	`Cair`	`But now, in WoW ... I'm (in effect) not even in a guild, and I care absolutely nothing about seeing the high end of the game`
`07:56.53`	`Tem`	`well to be honest, MC sucks`
`07:57.01`	`kergoth`	`i'm pretty bored of playing`
`07:57.04`	`Tem`	`ZG is fun, but it's way hard compared to the loot it drops`
`07:57.07`	`Cair`	`I don't have the ... bond ... with people that I had back in EQ`
`07:57.08`	`kergoth`	`have more fun coding for it than playing it`
`07:57.08`	`kergoth`	`heh`
`07:57.12`	`Tem`	`MC is so much easier then ZG`
`07:57.23`	`Tem`	`it's rediculous...`
`07:57.25`	`Cair`	`I played EQ for 5+ years ... I've played WoW for what, 1.5?`
`07:57.28`	`Cair`	`I'm SO bored`
`07:57.53`	`Cair`	`It just hasn't grabbed me the way EQ did`
`07:59.48`	`Cair`	`Anyway, that was rather tangential, grats Tem, glad your guild is rocking along and you are having fun with it. :)`
`07:59.50`	`Iriel`	`How much of it is because your 'needs' are greater?`
`08:00.13`	`Cair`	`Whom was that directed at, Iriel?`
`08:00.28`	`Iriel`	`you Cair`
`08:00.42`	`Tem`	`H'ok I'm hella sleepy`
`08:00.43`	`Tem`	`bye`
`08:00.43`	`Iriel`	`There are things I'd have put up with in game 2-3 years ago that I wouldn't bother with now`
`08:00.45`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Matt@adsl-1-74-197.lft.bellsouth.net)`
`08:00.52`	`Cair`	`Aye, that may be`
`08:01.38`	`Cair`	`I can't but help to admit, though, that I miss what I had back in EQ`
`08:02.01`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tem (n=Matt@adsl-1-74-197.lft.bellsouth.net)`
`08:02.11`	`Tem`	`Iriel: I forgot to ask you this earlier`
`08:02.17`	`Cair`	`I guess I'm starting to fall into the category of "old jaded gamer" or something`
`08:02.28`	`Anduin\|Work`	`:P`
`08:02.37`	`Cair`	`Karl, hush :p`
`08:02.44`	`Anduin\|Work`	`:-D`
`08:02.53`	`Anduin\|Work`	`i didn't say it ;)`
`08:03.14`	`Cair`	`no, but you thought it loud enough that you may as well have said it`
`08:03.16`	`Anduin\|Work`	`tho i did just get 20 Elemental Air for 4g..`
`08:03.55`	`Anduin\|Work`	`and 4 Pristine Black Diamond for 10g`
`08:04.25`	`Tem`	`in the table setup I was descripting earlier, We both agreed that the column anchors was the way to go. However, I have to "fake" the text on the row moving down when the row is clicked. How should I do that`
`08:04.26`	`Anduin\|Work`	`and I've been stocking up on lesser cards for the rarity increase in 1.9`
`08:04.51`	`Tem`	`(that's the reason I had previously anchored by row)`
`08:05.43`	`Iriel`	`Hm.. adjusting the anchor pairs`
`08:05.44`	`Tem`	`Temporarily re-anchor, or do a messy loop to hit all of them`
`08:05.49`	`Iriel`	`(above and below)`
`08:05.58`	`Iriel`	`in a loop, yeah`
`08:06.05`	`Tem`	`blech`
`08:06.13`	`Tem`	`oh well, that will be fine I guess`
`08:06.19`	`Tem`	`now I need to go sleep`
`08:06.27`	`Tem`	`later guys`
`08:06.34`	`Cair`	`night Tem`
`08:07.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge MoonWolf (i=MoonWolf@ip51ccaa81.speed.planet.nl)`
`08:08.05`	`MoonWolf`	`greetings`
`08:08.09`	`Anduin\|Work`	`moo`
`08:08.14`	`Cair`	`purr`
`08:09.51`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tain (i=Shrubber@c-66-31-196-19.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`08:10.07`	`futrtrubl`	`rawr`
`08:10.13`	`Cair`	`purr`
`08:10.57`	`Cair`	`Tain, what are you doing awake? Go (back) to bed!`
`08:12.07`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge cladhaire (i=jnwhiteh@fairfax.dreamhost.com)`
`08:12.15`	`Cair`	`hey cladhaire`
`08:12.43`	`Cair`	`what's the deal guys? 3 am and you're logging in to channel now? go sleep already!`
`08:13.28`	`Anduin\|Work`	`looks like midnight to me`
`08:13.56`	`Cair`	`not for tain & claid, they're both in the same timezone I am, eastern`
`08:14.00`	`Cair`	`which makes it 3am`
`08:16.00`	`Cair`	`Okay, so since jaded gamers have come up ... what would you guys do if you were creating a MMORPG?`
`08:16.23`	`Anduin\|Work`	`well first of all. i wouldn't`
`08:16.43`	`Cair`	`why?`
`08:16.49`	`Tain`	`Give out heroin with each subscription.`
`08:17.25`	`Anduin\|Work`	`cause it's lucritive.`
`08:18.43`	`Tain`	`I wouldn't create one because I would create what I would want and would get annoyed at anyone who didn't like it.`
`08:19.00`	`Cair`	`You wouldn't make a MMORPG because it's lucritive? That seems rather ... backwards`
`08:19.48`	`futrtrubl`	`I would make mine crafting heavy, I like crafting`
`08:19.58`	`Anduin\|Work`	`i only invest in sinking ships`
`08:20.55`	`Cair`	`alright, let me rephrase then ... what would be your ideal in an MMORPG?`
`08:21.18`	`futrtrubl`	`I would also allow people to chat with those in the game from outside the game`
`08:21.25`	`Cair`	`EQ did that`
`08:21.40`	`Tain`	`No, EQ did it half-assed. Anarchy Online did it right.`
`08:22.04`	`Cair`	`I didn't say they necessarily did it well, just that they did it`
`08:22.10`	`Cair`	`and it wasn't that bad :p`
`08:22.10`	`Tain`	`Actually, I shouldn't say that. I don't know if EQIM ever improved.`
`08:22.20`	`Cair`	`It was pretty good by the time I left`
`08:22.24`	`Tain`	`(Darn I'm cranky when I wake up and can't sleep.)`
`08:22.35`	`Cair`	`Yeah, you are, go back to bed, grumpy :p`
`08:22.58`	`Tain`	`I just remember that you could message individuals, but not participate in guildchat, or other channels.`
`08:23.13`	`Cair`	`you could by the time I left`
`08:23.24`	`Tain`	`That's good then.`
`08:23.25`	`Cair`	`We were in channels`
`08:23.53`	`Cair`	`that was how we kept tabs on raid target spawns`
`08:24.00`	`Tain`	`My ideal in a MMORPG would start with actual penalties for dying.`
`08:24.09`	`Cair`	`so that we could be doing other things while we waited for whatever to spawn`
`08:24.51`	`Tain`	`Experience loss, but not level loss.`
`08:25.06`	`Tain`	`Kids today have it too easy.`
`08:25.51`	`Anduin\|Work`	`hardcore ftw. one death = restart`
`08:26.07`	`Cair`	`Ugh`
`08:26.16`	`Tain`	`Yeah, I personally wouldn't go that far. :)`
`08:27.26`	`Tain`	`There's little things that annoy me. Like the fact that vendor bought equipment is useless, why even bother having it for sale.`
`08:27.43`	`Tain`	`The only thing it's good for is buying your weapons until oh level 10 or so`
`08:27.50`	`Cair`	`Okay, heavy crafting, outside conversation, hard core death penalty, decent vendor gear`
`08:27.58`	`Cair`	`what else?`
`08:28.01`	`Tain`	`After that no one ever buys weapons or armor from any vendor ever again.`
`08:29.25`	`Tain`	`I like WoW's solo vs. group content balance. Let people solo if they want to, but I do think better rewards at the same level should only come from things you need to group for.`
`08:29.48`	`Codayus`	`Mmm, heavy crafting is pretty hard to do; if you make crafted items powerful relative to quests/drops/vendor then everyone piles into crafting and devalues it. :-/`
`08:30.13`	`Tain`	`Vendor is already devalued to begin with though.`
`08:30.29`	`Codayus`	`The normal response is to make recipes really rare, and often be drops from mobs - which promptly removes most of the benefits of crafting...`
`08:31.59`	`Tain`	`That's sort of a symptom of a bigger problem, I think. Actually not necessarily a problem per se, but a situation.`
`08:32.01`	`Codayus`	`I hate to say it, but I think WoW's implementation of crafting is pretty decent.`
`08:32.36`	`Tain`	`People will model towards what you can do at max level, for the most part the levels below that don't mean anything to many.`
`08:33.13`	`Tain`	`There's a lot of great crafting stuff in WoW at all levels, for example. But you don't see a lot of it for sale across all levels.`
`08:34.50`	`Codayus`	`nod`
`08:34.53`	`Tain`	`Really that becomes the biggest issue eventually for any MMORPG, what to do with your character once you reach the level cap.`
`08:35.39`	`Tain`	`That doesn't mean everyone, but I believe a majority of your paying customers are playing to get to max more than enjoying and experiencing the content.`
`08:35.44`	`Codayus`	`Tain: Did you play AO?`
`08:36.07`	`Tain`	`I did, Codayus. At launch for about six months. Missed all of the changes after that.`
`08:36.18`	`Codayus`	`Ah, k.`
`08:36.53`	`Tain`	`I went back in a few months ago after I saw the free access to the non-expansion stuff, or whatever it is.`
`08:37.10`	`Codayus`	`Yeah, the AO answer to that question, post shadowlands, seemed to be: "Make sure people don't hit the level cap." Now, I admit it, I'm not hardcore, but DUDE, that was a steep XP curve.`
`08:37.31`	`Tain`	`My 48 Enforcer was still there. But I couldn't deal with it after all the games that have improved things.`
`08:38.13`	`Tain`	`I actually think AO had the most new and original ideas of any MMORPG since EverQuest, but the implementation just didn't live up to the ideas.`
`08:38.19`	`Codayus`	`Oh yeah.`
`08:38.48`	`Codayus`	`WoW coppied a lot of ideas from AO, I think. But AO really badly bungled a lot...`
`08:39.08`	`Tain`	`That includes the current crop, as much as I enjoy WoW it's still an incremental update of everything previous more than brand new ideas.`
`08:39.10`	`Codayus`	`(The crafting system was just...broken. And the SL expansion was wrong on so many levels...)`
`08:40.41`	`Tain`	`I do think that anything new has a very difficult path. If you go the swords and sorcery route you're just competing with everything.`
`08:40.43`	`Codayus`	`Ayup. I THINK AO actually invented instancing. (Or was, at least, the first to implement it; not sure the idea is non-obvious enough to qualify as an invention.) But WoW actually did it in a useful way. by instancing the bosses and "cool" content.`
`08:41.15`	`Tain`	`If you introduce a different genre though, you risk not drawing enough fans who would be interested.`
`08:41.42`	`Codayus`	`Whereas AO instanced the random boring grinding; the temple of the winds - which was crying out to be an instance - ended up as a freeking nasty 24/7 frenzy of ganking, griefing, training, and competing for spawns... sigh`
`08:41.57`	`Tain`	`heh`
`08:42.30`	`Tain`	`So really I still come back to, "I wouldn't start a new one." :)`
`08:43.07`	`Codayus`	`If nothing else, the barriers to entry are so high...`
`08:43.26`	`Codayus`	`It takes a LOT to attract a critical mass of people away from their current fancy.`
`08:44.29`	`Tain`	`Actually, the one full "genre" that I do think could be tapped would be an implementation of the old Shadowrun pen and paper RPG. Cyberpunk.`
`08:45.27`	`Tain`	`But Shadowrun, to me, could be made as an MMORPG.`
`08:45.55`	`Cair`	`The thing is, if you put RPG into the title, you basically have consigned yourself to running the basic Medieval High Fantasy, S&S`
`08:46.11`	`Tain`	`That's the challenge, and bar to entry.`
`08:46.18`	`Cair`	`s/consigned/constrained/`
`08:46.55`	`Cair`	`the instant you say "Role Play", that's what everyone thinks`
`08:47.12`	`Anduin\|Work`	`mmm, Starcraft RPG`
`08:47.18`	`Tain`	`The reality is RPG doesn't mean swords and socery, the public perception has been that. I'd be tempted to think that's changing with the success of City of Heroes, and to a lesser extent Star Wars Galaxies.`
`08:48.11`	`Tain`	`However, that is the crux of it. Enter into an already (in my opinion) saturated swords and sorcery market that you know has a user base.`
`08:48.39`	`Tain`	`Or enter into an unknown quantity for higher risk and potentially higher reward, or massive failure.`
`08:48.55`	`Cair`	`Well, and what genre hasn't already been exploited?`
`08:49.06`	`Cair`	`FPS - covered (and then some)`
`08:49.17`	`Cair`	`Fantasy (S&S) - covered (and then some)`
`08:49.19`	`Tain`	`Cyberpunk, post-apocylptic earth`
`08:49.28`	`Tain`	`Love me some Fallout RPG`
`08:49.32`	`Cair`	`Comic Book SuperHero - covered`
`08:49.59`	`Cair`	`You don't think Half Life pretty much covers that, Tain?`
`08:50.13`	`Cair`	`With the lovely mutants from outerspace and all?`
`08:50.13`	`Tain`	`Not if we're talking MMORPGs.`
`08:50.24`	`Cair`	`No, it's a FPS`
`08:50.39`	`Cair`	`But how would you turn it into a RPG?`
`08:50.40`	`Tain`	`I know that's what Half Life is, but you were asking about ideas for MMORPGs.`
`08:51.15`	`Cair`	`(btw, I'm just making random chit chat, since I'm bored :p )`
`08:51.35`	`Tain`	`Things I would like to see still are MMORPGs based on Cyberpunk/Shadowrun, and then Fallout/Gamma World.`
`08:52.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge RS (n=Vizir@CPE-70-92-246-76.wi.res.rr.com)`
`08:52.19`	`Tain`	`Fallout/Gamma World being post-apocolyptic society, most of the world nuked itself to death, people surviving on primitive technology and whatever they scavange and figure out of the old stuff.`
`08:53.50`	`Cair`	`but do you really think those could fit the RPG genre or would they do better to remain as they currently are, FPS`
`08:54.47`	`Cair`	`could they reasonably be expected to adapt themselves to the RPG genre of MMOs?`
`08:56.01`	`Tain`	`No, I'm looking at them in their original formas, as pen and paper RPGs.`
`08:56.20`	`Tain`	`Those can be made.`
`08:58.31`	`Tain`	`I think there are a lot of original pen and paper RPGs that could be made over somewhat easily.`
`08:58.36`	`Cair`	`Are you saying make them pen & paper, or adapt them to MMO from the pen & paper?`
`08:59.03`	`Tain`	`Create the MMO from the pen & paper guidelines.`
`08:59.32`	`Tain`	`Like what Dungeons and Dragons Online is trying to do now, but they'll fail since there's too much competition in the fantasy space.`
`09:00.04`	`Cair`	`Yet there are other S&S MMOs in the works`
`09:00.22`	`Cair`	`The most publicized being V:SoH`
`09:00.27`	`Tain`	`Actually in my opinion (I got lots of those) Dungeons and Dragons has the most to lose of any.`
`09:01.05`	`Tain`	`There's a huge fanbase out there still for the p&p games to tap. However if you stray too far from those rules you'll lose that audience.`
`09:01.54`	`Tain`	`D&D doesn't fit into the same realm as WoW. It's just a different type of system entirely. Peopl see max character level 20 and can't imagine it.`
`09:02.45`	`Codayus`	`I dunno, coming from AO with 220 levels to WoW with 60, going to a game with only 20 wouldn't be much of a jump. :-)`
`09:03.12`	`Tain`	`So if you modify to use what they call "Epic" levels you can keep the generic game player happy, but run the risk of losing the built in fanbase of the true D&D players.`
`09:04.10`	`Tain`	`So there are three MMORPG "genres" that I would like to see without even discussing logistics.`
`09:04.26`	`Tain`	`1) Cyberpunk/Shadowrun`
`09:04.49`	`Tain`	`2) Fallout/Post-apocyliptic`
`09:05.02`	`Codayus`	`AO was a vaguely related riff on Cyberpunk. They seemed to abandon most of it shortly after launch though.`
`09:05.19`	`Tain`	`3) White Wolf - Vampire the Masquerade.`
`09:05.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge cladhaire (n=jnwhiteh@cpe-24-59-51-225.twcny.res.rr.com)`
`09:05.56`	`Tain`	`AO had some of those ideas, but they really focused more on .. actually I don't think anyone knew what they were focusing on.`
`09:06.13`	`Cair`	`VtM would really be a variation on the S&S theme though, I'd think?`
`09:06.32`	`Codayus`	`Tain: Everything! And of the shadowlands expansion we will not speak. Keepers... shudder`
`09:07.03`	`Codayus`	`Actually, what I want is a steampunk/gaslamp MMO, but that probably puts me in a pretty small minority.`
`09:07.09`	`Cair`	`And if you're gonna go VtM, you could also go MtG`
`09:07.23`	`kergoth`	`i remember playing a steampunk like rpg.. arcanum`
`09:07.25`	`kergoth`	`not mmo though`
`09:07.25`	`Tain`	`No, no MtG.`
`09:07.34`	`Cair`	`but again, we're right back to S&S`
`09:07.46`	`Tain`	`I'm talking more of the White Wolf RPG games than the card games.`
`09:08.12`	`Tain`	`Although I loved Vampire The Masquerade card games.`
`09:08.23`	`Codayus`	`WoW has steampunk elements, but it sticks to them about as well as AO did to cyberpunk. Bliz can't seem to decide how the gnomes/goblins should be treated. Gnomregan completely messes up the overall steampunk "feel"...`
`09:08.27`	`Tain`	`I still have my original decks from when they were called Jyhad.`
`09:09.06`	`Tain`	`But it would do best as a pure PVP games, Werewolves vs Vampires.`
`09:09.28`	`Tain`	`With each faction on each side also fighting amongsth themselves.`
`09:09.43`	`Codayus`	`Oooh, that'd work.`
`09:09.47`	`Cair`	`True`
`09:09.54`	`Cair`	`that could actually be a lot of fun`
`09:10.00`	`Tain`	`It would be... something. hehe I don't know that it would work well. :)`
`09:10.08`	`Codayus`	`On a slightly related note, did those rumors about Diablo 3 ever pan out, or was that just people trolling and making stuff up?`
`09:10.19`	`Tain`	`I don't know, but I'd play.`
`09:10.25`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tain (i=Shrubber@c-66-31-196-19.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`09:10.36`	`Cair`	`Lycans ...`
`09:10.51`	`MoonWolf`	`<PROTECTED>`
`09:10.51`	`futrtrubl`	`g'night all`
`09:11.07`	`Cair`	`night futrtrubl`
`09:11.15`	`Tain`	`I miss the short-lived tv show they did based on Vampire: The Masquerade`
`09:11.29`	`Cair`	`Aye, scroll up through the conversation MoonWolf, you'll see where it came from`
`09:11.43`	`Tain`	`I think after my bonus I'll hit up ebay and see if I can find it.`
`09:13.14`	`Tain`	`Really though the worlds are already fully fleshed out in Shadowrun and Gamma World, they're both original pen and paper RPGs.`
`09:13.52`	`Tain`	`Although if anyone were going to try to do a Gamma World/post-apocolyptic game they'd also better play Fallout, and Fallout2`
`09:14.05`	`Cair`	`You know, the more I think about that ... VtM could be a lot of fun`
`09:14.09`	`Tain`	`Those are the bibles.`
`09:14.27`	`Tain`	`I'd definitely enjoy a VtM type game.`
`09:14.40`	`Tain`	`In fact there was a single player game a bunch of years back called Bloodnet.`
`09:14.58`	`MoonWolf`	`wow, i had a gm response in 5 minutes flat. if even that.`
`09:15.06`	`Cair`	`steals Tain's suggestion and goes to sell it to the highest bidder`
`09:15.23`	`Tain`	`You were a vampire, and had to try to keep your bloodhunger down with syrums or else you'd go crazy and start murdering people on the street.`
`09:15.37`	`Tain`	`But you also had to go into "the net" as an avatar and get information.`
`09:16.20`	`Cair`	`nod`
`09:17.57`	`Tain`	`It was fun.`
`09:18.23`	`Cair`	`and it would still appeal to all the b.net kiddies, since they could play a sexy vamp`
`09:18.48`	`Tain`	`haha you could draw in the entire emo and goth crowds`
`09:18.55`	`Cair`	`oh hell yes`
`09:19.14`	`Tain`	`Advertise on suicidegirls.com, instant paying memberbase`
`09:19.15`	`Cair`	`You'd get the indi crowd too`
`09:19.17`	`kremonte`	`didnt look it`
`09:19.23`	`kremonte`	`oops, mt`
`09:21.23`	`Tain`	`Then there's an area that I have no desire to approach, but there is a possibility for fanbase.`
`09:22.43`	`Tain`	`I don't even want to think about it actually. But...`
`09:22.45`	`Tain`	`Furries.`
`09:23.07`	`Anduin\|Work`	`as in Star trek Furries?`
`09:23.42`	`Anduin\|Work`	`wasn't there an episode in each seaon about the furries... except Enterprise..`
`09:24.05`	`Tain`	`As in the whole subculture of people who dress up in animal costumes and have sex.`
`09:24.06`	`Cair`	`tribbles!`
`09:24.28`	`Cair`	`that's just weird :p`
`09:24.39`	`Cair`	`but to each their own :)`
`09:24.39`	`Tain`	`You just look up furries`
`09:24.41`	`Tain`	`You'll see`
`09:28.30`	`Cair`	`anyway, time for this chick to go get some sleep, night all`
`09:31.13`	`Cair\|sleep`	`Hey Tain, before I forget again ... you are registered on Tom's site, right?`
`09:31.28`	`Tain`	`Yes I think so`
`09:32.06`	`Cair\|sleep`	`If you have access to the supporter's forum (I would imagine you do), you should check out the updated thread in there ... screenshot of one of the new pieces he is working on for EQ`
`09:32.22`	`Tain`	`aahh cool thanks :)`
`09:32.23`	`Anduin\|Work`	`http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671541811/103-3492701-7071837?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance`
`09:32.25`	`Cair\|sleep`	`and on that note, I'm to bed ... night night`
`09:32.33`	`Anduin\|Work`	`http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook5832.htm`
`09:33.07`	`Anduin\|Work`	`ah, here we go.`
`09:33.11`	`Anduin\|Work`	`http://www.ereader.com/product/book/series/724`
`09:35.59`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge shouryuu (n=nicolass@29.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`09:36.02`	`shouryuu`	`rawr`
`09:36.25`	`shouryuu`	`rwar?`
`09:37.09`	`Anduin\|Work`	`wrra`
`09:37.46`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Tain (i=Shrubber@c-66-31-196-19.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`09:42.04`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge cladhaire (n=jnwhiteh@cpe-24-59-51-225.twcny.res.rr.com)`
`10:14.38`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge AnduinLothar (n=KarlKFI@ip70-181-69-252.oc.oc.cox.net)`
`10:18.18`	`AnduinLothar`	`Ok guys, here's the latest SeaHooks if you wanna play with it: http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=2689`
`10:19.23`	`AnduinLothar`	`I figured I'd made enough changes already. I'll leave the auto-debugging non-sea hooks for next release.`
`10:20.12`	`AnduinLothar`	`Still, debugging potential conflicts works well`
`11:05.40`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Stylpe (n=Stylpe@98.84-48-162.nextgentel.com)`
`11:20.48`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge elema (n=ele_ma@p548AFD4F.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`11:51.58`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Trilian (n=Miranda@dyndsl-085-016-004-081.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`13:03.03`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide (i=Cide@81-226-233-223-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`13:09.31`	*** join/#wowi-lounge id` (n=tom@hellsblade.xs4all.nl)
`13:24.41`	id`	`im making water as much as my level, is this normal?`
`13:25.44`	id`	`e.g. im a lvl 6 mage and when i clikc make water i get a stack of 6`
`13:31.37`	`Cide`	`I believe it's 2+(yourLevel-attainedLevel)`
`13:31.58`	`Cide`	`you got it at level 2, so 2+(6-2)`
`13:33.04`	`Cide`	`or it might be 4+2*(yourLevel-attainedLevel), not sure actually`
`13:34.53`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol\|alt (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`13:51.23`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol\|alt (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`13:51.48`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`13:57.41`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Trilian (n=Miranda@dyndsl-085-016-014-062.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`15:02.50`	id`	`AllInOneInventory vs Onebag`
`15:03.01`	id`	`I'm using OneBag now`
`15:03.06`	id`	`hmm.. wirks great..`
`15:03.09`	id`	`win!`
`15:03.09`	id`	`:D`
`15:10.44`	id`	`http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=628`
`15:10.45`	id`	`so using`
`15:10.53`	id`	`if i like this ill be converting/downsizing it :D`
`15:13.52`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Eraphine\|Disco (n=Eraphine@brenna.human.cornell.edu)`
`15:44.57`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Beladona (n=Beladona@115-60.124-70.tampabay.res.rr.com)`
`16:21.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol\|alt (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`16:56.33`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Trilian (n=Miranda@dyndsl-085-016-010-203.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`17:06.21`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`17:15.54`	`ToastTheif`	`hrtmmm`
`17:15.59`	`ToastTheif`	`hrmm*`
`17:16.11`	`ToastTheif`	`We will put a live version of BETA 1.5 tomorrow or the next day for testing on live servers.`
`17:16.39`	`ToastTheif`	`I wonder if Cide has inside info on when 1.9 is going live ^^`
`17:28.21`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Trilian41 (n=Miranda@dyndsl-085-016-022-245.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`17:28.50`	`futrtrubl`	`morning all`
`17:30.46`	`ToastTheif`	`yaaaaar`
`17:32.31`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Cide (i=Cide@81-226-233-223-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`17:34.08`	`Cide`	`hi hi`
`17:34.26`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge mrch0mp3rs (n=asilvers@207-255-31-033-dhcp.jst.pa.atlanticbb.net)`
`19:04.37`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Legorol (i=legorol@cpc3-cmbg6-6-0-cust238.cmbg.cable.ntl.com)`
`19:22.46`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Vizir (n=Vizir@CPE-70-92-246-76.wi.res.rr.com)`
`20:20.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`20:21.47`	`futrtrubl`	`so, what's everyone up to?`
`20:24.29`	`Industrial`	`first steps in php5`
`20:24.41`	`Industrial`	`decided i need a little cms`
`20:24.45`	`Industrial`	`for my addons website`
`20:24.49`	`Industrial`	`because im lazy`
`20:24.53`	`Industrial`	`:D`
`20:30.01`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Iriel (n=daniel@adsl-66-123-190-42.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)`
`20:35.31`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Rowne (n=Wuff@81-178-107-81.dsl.pipex.com)`
`20:39.42`	`Iriel`	`Afternoon all`
`20:40.15`	`krka`	`evening`
`20:40.57`	`Rowne`	`H'lo.`
`20:41.12`	`Rowne`	`Heya krka, haven't seen you around in an age and a half! Good to know you're still around.`
`20:41.50`	`krka`	`i just hang around irc to annoy people, haven't played for a few months`
`20:42.04`	`Rowne`	`I didn't play for a few months until I was offered a free account.`
`20:42.56`	`krka`	`by who?`
`20:43.07`	`Rowne`	`A friend in the UK`
`20:43.13`	`Rowne`	`Who wanted me to code for them. :p`
`20:43.17`	`krka`	`not blizzard then`
`20:43.22`	`Rowne`	`Hahahaha, no.`
`20:43.50`	`Rowne`	`Though Blizzard does seem nicer lately, I loved Caydiem's reactions to the Tigon stuff.`
`20:43.54`	`Rowne`	`She's such a tease.`
`20:44.05`	`krka`	`tigon?`
`20:44.13`	`Rowne`	`Ohhh yes, a wonderful thread that was.`
`20:44.15`	`Rowne`	`I'll dig it out.`
`20:45.26`	`Rowne`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=5714455&P=1`
`20:48.14`	`krka`	`i see`
`20:51.40`	`Rowne`	`Personally, I really ... rillyrillyrilly would like to see Tigon's but it's like wishing for the moon, s'not going to happen. Pandaren would be more likely but that's not going to happen. I'm wondering who the Alliance will get. Since the Horde got their 'beauty' race, I can only speculate that the Alliance will now get a beast race.`
`20:53.29`	`krka`	`Pandaren made it into War3...`
`20:53.47`	`krka`	`alliance already have dwarves though`
`20:53.59`	`Iriel`	`I'm voting for the Squirren, a race of mutated noble Squirrels.`
`20:54.25`	`Rowne`	`I really, really hope so.`
`20:54.25`	`krka`	`I think it's Fruitelves`
`20:54.52`	`Iriel`	`A marteting tie in with Starburst and Keebler?`
`20:55.01`	`Rowne`	`That's scary.`
`20:55.14`	`Rowne`	`Of course, they could just go with a little race of sentient robots, just for kicks.`
`20:55.20`	`Iriel`	`Or perhaps with skittles - they get 'rainbow of fruit flavor' as a racial trait`
`20:55.31`	`krka`	`i want a Lost Vikings race for alliance`
`20:55.37`	`Rowne`	`Augh ... millions of R2D2 and people with; "Warning, warning, DANGER $name!!" ... no, bad idea.`
`20:56.10`	`krka`	`what would really rock though is Protoss`
`20:56.11`	`Rowne`	`I have a feeling it's going to be Worgen related though.`
`20:56.22`	`Rowne`	`I mean ... Caydiem said they have to have a link to the Outland.`
`20:56.32`	`Rowne`	`And the undead say that the Worgen are from another dimension/World.`
`20:56.38`	`Rowne`	`Elsedimension/World == Outland?`
`20:56.57`	`Rowne`	`So that's another silent hope.`
`20:57.00`	`Iriel`	`Chris Metzen's comment at blizzcon was something aong the lines of : "When you find out you're going to go "Oh!" and then you're going to go "Wow."`
`20:57.33`	`Iriel`	`He also more or less said it wouldn't be pandaren, but he could have been lying`
`20:57.34`	`Rowne`	`It's probably going to be something rare from Warcraft I or II that they've built a lot of lore on that's also a beast race ...`
`20:57.44`	`Rowne`	`They probably were.`
`20:57.56`	`krka`	`Water elementals!`
`20:57.56`	`Rowne`	`They swore the Horde would never get Elves, frequently, often and with vigour.`
`20:58.30`	`krka`	`or Gryphons!`
`20:58.47`	`krka`	`Racial trait: can carry dwarves`
`20:58.52`	`Rowne`	`I could definitely play the Alliance for a little while as an anthro-Gryphon. :p`
`20:59.27`	`krka`	`the two headed ogre thing would be both "Oh!" and "Wow."`
`20:59.35`	`krka`	`(played by two people)`
`21:00.36`	`Rowne`	`...`
`21:00.38`	`Rowne`	`Gods, he's right.`
`21:00.38`	`krka`	`hmm.. blizzards april 1 jokes are usually correct, so that would make sense`
`21:00.45`	`Rowne`	`It would take two heads to go Oh! and Wow.`
`21:00.46`	`krka`	`they did one with 0.9~ = 1`
`21:00.47`	`Rowne`	`...`
`21:00.55`	`krka`	`thus, it's ogrs`
`21:01.03`	`Rowne`	`Two-headed Ogres!`
`21:01.05`	`krka`	`aren't they from outland too? i can't remember`
`21:01.38`	`Rowne`	`And they're a part of Venture Co! So they do have Alliance-ish links whilst still being neutral at Goblin-Dwarf-Gnome gatherings.`
`21:01.47`	`Rowne`	`Then again, this theory blows up at one point ...`
`21:01.52`	`Rowne`	`The Horde have a friendly Ogre town.`
`21:01.53`	`krka`	`http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warcraft_universe`
`21:01.55`	`krka`	`YES`
`21:01.58`	`krka`	`they're from outland`
`21:02.17`	`krka`	`so? there can be different clans of ogres`
`21:02.27`	`krka`	`there are evil versions of all races, I think`
`21:02.35`	`krka`	`s/evil/hostile/`
`21:02.50`	`Rowne`	`True enough.`
`21:03.03`	`Rowne`	`Like the Grimtotem Taurens versus the normal Taurens who're treehuggers.`
`21:03.12`	`Rowne`	`In fact, the treehuggingness is getting appreciably silly.`
`21:03.15`	`krka`	`evil humans... check, evil dwarves... check (dark iron)`
`21:03.20`	`Rowne`	`1.9 will introduce a flower-seller into Thunder Bluff.`
`21:03.23`	`krka`	`trolls.... plenty of them`
`21:03.25`	`Rowne`	`I wholly support this.`
`21:03.39`	`Rowne`	`Actually ...`
`21:03.47`	`Rowne`	`The Adventurer's Guild can be downright evil too.`
`21:04.02`	`Rowne`	`"Please don't dig on our land? It's not nice.", "RAR!!! Kill the Taurens!", "Eep."`
`21:04.35`	`Rowne`	`So I think they throw in hostile everything, regardless.`
`21:04.49`	`Rowne`	`I don't think it has to do with tribe or anything. Some are hostile just to give the players something to kill.`
`21:05.22`	`Rowne`	`Still, Ogres would be interesting ...`
`21:05.32`	`Rowne`	`But why would Ogres choose to take up arms with the Alliance?`
`21:05.35`	`Rowne`	`Aren't they anarchists?`
`21:05.53`	`Rowne`	`My lore on them is a little spotty but I think usually they are.`
`21:06.18`	`krka`	`maybe ogres are PO:d at orcs`
`21:06.26`	`krka`	`they weren't allied at all in Warcraft 3`
`21:06.46`	`Rowne`	`That's entirely possible.`
`21:06.59`	`Rowne`	`But I think they'd be just as likely to give the boy King a wedgie as the Orcs would.`
`21:07.24`	`Rowne`	`Still, you definitely have a sound and solid theory.`
`21:07.27`	`Iriel`	`Well, the're a lot of stuff been going on in Outland, stuff which might make some seek out the alliance for help.`
`21:07.29`	`Rowne`	`I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were right.`
`21:07.35`	`Rowne`	`That's very true.`
`21:07.40`	`Rowne`	`It's a good theory, very sound.`
`21:07.45`	`Iriel`	`I suspect they can brew up a reason for ANY outland race to want to join forces.`
`21:07.51`	`krka`	`most likely it will be one-headed ogres though`
`21:08.06`	`Iriel`	`or semi-decapitated two headed ones.`
`21:08.07`	`Rowne`	`And pass up the oppurtunity for two-headed emotes?`
`21:08.09`	`krka`	`if NE and tauren can be enemies, why can't ogres be friends with alliance?`
`21:08.15`	`krka`	`also, tauren and undead are allied?`
`21:08.17`	`krka`	`WTF is that?`
`21:08.24`	`Rowne`	`Ah, there's good reason for that.`
`21:08.30`	`Rowne`	`The undead are ... frankly, very insideous.`
`21:08.43`	`Rowne`	`"Help us make the Goblins all friendly and nice?", "Sure, we'll allies, we'll aid you in doing that!"`
`21:08.45`	`Rowne`	`And they do.`
`21:08.58`	`Rowne`	`Er, by the Goblins I refer to those of Venture Co.`
`21:09.08`	`Rowne`	`They make a kind of 'plague-variant' to make them tame.`
`21:09.37`	`Rowne`	`I think Thrall is just secretly hoping there's good in the Undead and that by showing compassion, they'll eventually cool down and stop wanting to kill everything.`
`21:09.41`	`Rowne`	`Thrall is idealistic like that.`
`21:09.49`	`Rowne`	`And his idealism rubs off on Cairne, a lot.`
`21:10.19`	`Rowne`	`Of course, the Trolls can't say anything because they're indebted to the Orcs, so they probably know what's going on but they can't do a damned thing about it. :p`
`21:10.26`	`Rowne`	`Thrall is wholly the Xavier of the Warcraft Universe.`
`21:10.50`	`krka`	`isn't it cairne that is most indebted?`
`21:11.04`	`Rowne`	`Nope, that was mutual.`
`21:11.06`	`krka`	`the orcs saved the taurens in War3 if i'm not mistaken`
`21:11.11`	`Rowne`	`Not exactly.`
`21:12.15`	`Rowne`	`The Orcs were lost and without a place, the Taurens helped them and guided them, provided for them and then, when the Taurens were on the verge of extinction with the Centaurs, the Orcs had respect for their new Tauren brothers and rose up and fought for them. The Taurens and the Orcs fought together and beat back the Centaurs and took Mulgore for their own. Without the Orcs, the Taurens would've died.`
`21:12.23`	`Rowne`	`So it was very much a mutual saving.`
`21:12.47`	`Rowne`	`Because the Taurens are very giving, "All that is ours is yours." and that. The Orcs are very honourbound and loyal.`
`21:13.06`	`Rowne`	`So they kinda just bounced well off each other.`
`21:13.14`	`Rowne`	`Nope, it's the Trolls who're most indebted.`
`21:13.18`	`Rowne`	`Becasue the Orcs outright saved them.`
`21:13.34`	`krka`	`i see`
`21:13.48`	`Rowne`	`That's why the Chieftain of the Darkspear Tribe swore allegiance.`
`21:13.55`	`Rowne`	`Purely because of their humility to the Orcs.`
`21:14.20`	`Rowne`	`So I get most of what's going on with the Horde.`
`21:14.38`	`Rowne`	`I'm wondering how long it'll be thought before the Undead go batshit and everyone has to try to oust them. :p`
`21:15.35`	`Rowne`	`Of course, I'm not convinced that all undead are evil myself. I played a rather pleasant one myself, not a very happy one but a pleasant one. He was kind of like HitchHiker's Marvin. He was a butler in his past life, name of Jeeves. A very eccentric fellow too, to boot.`
`21:15.44`	`Rowne`	`Though he did have his moments of pure evil.`
`21:16.09`	`krka`	`too bad blizzard can't really change alliances so easily`
`21:16.32`	`Rowne`	`Yeah, the Horde could use a new race.`
`21:16.37`	`Rowne`	`The Undead do seem kind of out of place.`
`21:16.43`	`krka`	`people would get angry if they got split up from their friends`
`21:16.55`	`Rowne`	`Because the Trolls are picking up on the family stuff and the Orcs/Taurens are wholly into this "Brothers of the Horde!" stuff.`
`21:17.02`	`Rowne`	`True.`
`21:17.19`	`Rowne`	`Then again, the Undead could botch up the plague and actually regain their emotions.`
`21:17.21`	`Rowne`	`Now that'd be funny.`
`21:17.55`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge shouryuu (n=nicolass@29.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`21:17.57`	`shouryuu`	`rawr`
`21:18.00`	`Rowne`	`"Well, that was a hilarious failiure. Ha. Hahahaha. Hahahahaha.", "What's wrong with you?", "I ... think I was laughing.", "OMG?! WTF?! KAAAAHN!"`
`21:18.02`	`Iriel`	`Anyone know any _return value_ API changes for 1.9 not covered in the 1.9 changes thread yet? I'm working on my usual API changes thread`
`21:19.33`	`shouryuu`	`my back is killing me`
`21:20.16`	`shouryuu`	`I had to sleep on the floor last night`
`21:20.18`	`shouryuu`	`bad experience`
`21:20.24`	`shouryuu`	`not to be tried again'`
`21:20.25`	`krka`	`kill it right back!`
`21:20.44`	`futrtrubl`	`"beauty" race?`
`21:21.21`	`krka`	`aka a race that doesn't have rotting flesh or huge teeth`
`21:21.32`	`krka`	`or udders`
`21:22.25`	`futrtrubl`	`he said "udders" he, hehehe ;']`
`21:22.37`	`Rowne`	`... but I like the udders.`
`21:22.54`	`Rowne`	`They're udderly fantastic, don'cha know.`
`21:23.21`	`futrtrubl`	`how Troll.`
`21:23.48`	`Rowne`	`Just milking it for all it's worth.`
`21:26.37`	`krka`	`can Taurens drink milk btw?`
`21:26.42`	`krka`	`that would be weird, I think`
`21:26.44`	`cladhaire`	`Yep`
`21:26.49`	`cladhaire`	`i' have two stacks of milk in my bags atm`
`21:26.56`	`krka`	`or eat beef?`
`21:27.01`	`cladhaire`	`mmmm beef.`
`21:27.02`	`krka`	`and can undead eat at all?`
`21:30.04`	`Rowne`	`Yes, they can.`
`21:30.09`	`Rowne`	`They can even devour corpses for food.`
`21:30.11`	`Rowne`	`Really.`
`21:30.28`	`Rowne`	`I've seen one knock down an Alliance NPC then feast on his flesh.`
`21:30.32`	`Rowne`	`I think it only works for humanoids, too.`
`21:35.27`	`shouryuu`	`man my internet is so jumpy`
`21:35.30`	`shouryuu`	`this is killing me`
`21:36.31`	`shouryuu`	`it goes from fast to slow to on to off left right up down RAWR`
`21:36.52`	`Rowne`	`I'm suddenly reminded of the Capcom cheat.`
`21:37.02`	`shouryuu`	`I'm not even sure you can hear me`
`21:37.14`	`Tain`	`Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A`
`21:37.35`	`shouryuu`	`maybe my messages are being dumped in syber-space`
`21:37.38`	`shouryuu`	`*cyber`
`21:38.12`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Verlaine (n=nicolass@29.239.97-84.rev.gaoland.net)`
`21:38.25`	`Verlaine`	`\|24\/\/\|2`
`21:41.10`	`Industrial`	`if i define a local in an if will it stay in the if?`
`21:41.59`	`Industrial`	`local bla='lol1' if 1 then local bla='lol2' print(bla) end print(bla)`
`21:42.05`	`Temsleep`	`Iriel: for return value changes, you might want to look up the friends api. I suspect it may have undergone a similar change to the GetGuildRosterInfo`
`21:42.06`	`Industrial`	`will output lol2 lol1 ?`
`21:42.18`	`Verlaine`	`I'd say it does`
`21:42.22`	`Verlaine`	`but I'm no expert`
`21:42.35`	`Temsleep`	`Industrial: yes it should`
`21:42.41`	`Verlaine`	`w00t`
`21:42.42`	`Industrial`	`Temsleep: yay for lua!`
`21:42.47`	`Verlaine`	`she can talk and sleep!`
`21:42.54`	`Iriel`	`Yeah, I got the friend/guild ones`
`21:42.58`	`Verlaine`	`can you debug my add-on as well when your sleeping?`
`21:43.13`	`Iriel`	`Industrial : yes, it does`
`21:43.41`	`Industrial`	`she? tem's a she? :)`
`21:43.46`	`Tem`	`I'm afraid I'm not very good at dubugging`
`21:43.48`	`Verlaine`	`no idea`
`21:43.53`	`Tem`	`(no, Tem is not a she)`
`21:43.56`	`Verlaine`	`ok`
`21:43.58`	`Verlaine`	`sorry`
`21:44.01`	`Verlaine`	`my bad`
`21:44.01`	`Industrial`	`its a she-tem!`
`21:44.07`	`Industrial`	`oh.. not.. hehe ok`
`21:44.21`	`Tem`	`Understandable, the avatar I use on the forums in a "she."`
`21:44.24`	`Verlaine`	`your avatar is a she so I just consider you as a lvl 8 female night elf, not a human being`
`21:44.42`	`Tem`	`lol... I don't even know what level that character is`
`21:44.48`	`Verlaine`	`8`
`21:44.56`	`Tem`	`I made it when my realm was down like 2 weeks after release`
`21:45.05`	`Tem`	`and I haven't played it since`
`21:45.20`	`Verlaine`	`lol`
`21:45.24`	`Verlaine`	`I have tons of toons like that`
`21:46.25`	`Tem`	`then of course the forums were busted for a long time so I couldn't post with my main`
`21:46.54`	`Tem`	`by the time I could use my actual character, people already knew me as "tem"`
`21:48.36`	`Verlaine`	`I'm shouryuu, and have always been :P`
`21:48.43`	`Rallion`	`Except right now.`
`21:48.45`	`Tain`	`Shoruare`
`21:49.29`	`Verlaine`	`rawr`
`21:49.35`	`Verlaine`	`shoruare?`
`21:50.06`	`Tain`	`Sure you are`
`21:50.17`	`Rowne`	`Sounds like Tooska.`
`21:50.21`	`Tain`	`It was a very bad attempt at word play humor.`
`21:50.27`	`Verlaine`	`rawr :P`
`21:50.38`	`Tain`	`But it was funny in my head when I typed it.`
`21:50.41`	`Rowne`	`I'll have to get linguistics guy to add that one to the Tooska Tak dictionary.`
`21:50.59`	`Verlaine`	`listen to this song`
`21:51.01`	`Verlaine`	`http://shieldhearth.ytmnd.com/`
`21:51.56`	`Rowne`	`It's ytmnd.com ... so eeee, no.`
`21:52.46`	`Rallion`	`Tain, I laughed.`
`21:53.11`	`Verlaine`	`fine`
`21:53.13`	`Verlaine`	`be prejudiced`
`21:53.15`	`Verlaine`	`see if I care`
`21:54.03`	`Rallion`	`I like how whoever set it up managed to misspell 'hearth'`
`21:54.25`	`Rowne`	`They did?`
`21:54.40`	`Rallion`	`not in the URL`
`21:54.42`	`Verlaine`	`lol`
`21:54.45`	`Rowne`	`Oh.`
`21:54.55`	`Rowne`	`Reason #2 not to click that link. ;p`
`21:55.07`	`Rallion`	`the graphic says "Shield Heath FTW"`
`21:55.10`	`Verlaine`	`:'(`
`21:55.19`	`Rallion`	`lol`
`21:56.06`	`Verlaine`	`Magical trevooorrrrr`
`21:56.10`	`Rowne`	`Hokay, so I think I'm going to head out of IRC and actually go and ... er, do ... something. Something that's something.`
`21:56.39`	`Rowne`	`Maybe code, maybe Anachronox, maybe City of Villains, maybe Warcraft but I have the urge to dooo something. So off I go.`
`21:56.45`	`Cide`	`MAGICAL TREVOR!`
`21:56.50`	`Verlaine`	`beeannnsS!!!!!`
`21:56.58`	`Rowne`	`Oh no.`
`21:57.03`	`Rowne`	`It's Leeroy all over again.`
`21:57.04`	`Rowne`	`Isn't it?`
`21:57.11`	`Verlaine`	`where is the cow? Hidden right noe!`
`21:57.28`	`Verlaine`	`i r gut spelerz`
`21:57.38`	`Verlaine`	`I think magical trevor reduces my IQ`
`21:57.46`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Rowne (n=Wuff@81-178-107-81.dsl.pipex.com)`
`21:58.02`	`Verlaine`	`rawr`
`21:58.18`	`Verlaine`	`well I'm off as well`
`21:58.22`	`Verlaine`	`my back hurst`
`21:58.29`	`Verlaine`	`*Hurts`
`21:58.30`	`Tain`	`That's right, you better run.`
`21:58.45`	`Verlaine`	`i don't want to go to school tomorow`
`21:58.49`	`Verlaine`	`I'm tired`
`21:58.54`	`Verlaine`	`and god hates me`
`21:58.56`	`Verlaine`	`and tain is mean`
`21:58.58`	`Verlaine`	`sooooooooo`
`21:59.01`	`Verlaine`	`rawr`
`21:59.03`	`Verlaine`	`to you all`
`21:59.06`	`Tain`	`Me too. :(`
`21:59.12`	`Tain`	`Except I don't have to to go school.`
`21:59.25`	`Rallion`	`Oooh, Rowne's playing Anachronox`
`21:59.28`	`Rallion`	`Excellent game`
`22:00.06`	`Iriel`	`These new LFG API's are quite detailed`
`22:00.57`	`Iriel`	`All the Dungeons, Raids, Zones, Battlegrounds, and many Quests`
`22:01.32`	`Iriel`	`Unfortunately that's as far as I can get since there's no UI code to figure out the workings of the rest (and nobody else LFG that way, obviously)`
`22:03.30`	`cladhaire`	`Well at least they show promise.`
`22:05.47`	*** join/#wowi-lounge krem`afk (n=help@ool-18bba44d.dyn.optonline.net)
`22:06.21`	`Rallion`	`i bought a whole new N64 on ebay because my power supply stopped working....because it was cheaper`
`22:07.07`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge mrch0mp3rs (n=asilvers@207-255-31-033-dhcp.jst.pa.atlanticbb.net)`
`22:14.09`	`Iriel`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-interface-customization&t=270816&p=1&tmp=1`
`22:14.19`	`Iriel`	`The API changes thread, please let me know if I missed anything`
`22:14.46`	`cladhaire`	`Slouken was in here a few nights ago looking for it.. so he'll be happy to see it :P`
`22:15.49`	`Iriel`	`I can't tell if you're joking 8-)`
`22:19.03`	`Iriel`	`There are unfortunately 7 or 8 not-backward-compatible API changes, NOT including the scale stuff`
`22:22.42`	`cladhaire`	`NO he was here asking for you`
`22:22.54`	`cladhaire`	`in all seriousness =)`
`22:23.05`	`Tain`	`Is there anything that's really positive about the scale changes? It seems like it's just going to make things a lot more difficult. But I guess more flexible.`
`22:23.22`	`Iriel`	`It's a really good change`
`22:23.45`	`cladhaire`	`It makes it work like it always should have`
`22:23.56`	`Iriel`	`If you build complex frame structures, the 'innards' dont need to constantly work out what their effective scales are`
`22:26.02`	`Iriel`	`Damn, I missed some frame methods in my post`
`22:26.14`	`Iriel`	`And getItemInfo`
`22:27.16`	`Tain`	`I fear what I don't understand.`
`22:30.01`	`kremonte`	`they changed getiteminfo?`
`22:30.18`	`Iriel`	`arg 8 is no longer localized`
`22:30.28`	`Iriel`	`There's a new arg 9 which is the inventory texture for the item`
`22:31.34`	`cladhaire`	`I love the Buff/Debuff changes.. rips a lot of code out of a few mods =)`
`22:31.56`	`krka`	`buff/debuff changes?`
`22:32.00`	`krka`	`do elaborate!`
`22:32.13`	`kremonte`	`http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-interface-customization&t=270816&p=1&tmp=1#post270816`
`22:32.30`	`Iriel`	`I predict a couple of posts on the forum from people who changed their calls to UnitBuff/UnitDebuff, but forgot to change their tooltip SetUnitBuff/SetUnitdebuff calls to match`
`22:32.32`	`cladhaire`	`krka: the game will filter castable/dispellable debuffs for you`
`22:33.04`	`clad\|laundry`	`brb`
`22:33.37`	`krka`	`interesting`
`22:33.45`	`krka`	`should reduce overhead a bit`
`22:35.17`	`Iriel`	`Ok, filled in all the holes i'm aware of now`
`22:36.18`	`Iriel`	`GameTooltip:GetAnchorType() is new and wasn't announced`
`22:36.20`	`Iriel`	`For anyone who carea`
`22:36.23`	`Iriel`	`cares`
`22:37.43`	`Iriel`	`Oh, and he did add bitlib, as promised.`
`22:41.40`	`kremonte`	`bitlib?`
`22:41.56`	`Iriel`	`bitwise operators`
`22:43.00`	`kremonte`	`yea. i dont know what that is. wikitime!`
`22:43.13`	`kergoth`	`thatll be nice for doing a decent checksumming algo`
`22:43.15`	`kergoth`	`sh4 or something`
`22:43.46`	`Iriel`	`I've added all of the bitlib functions to my API changes post`
`22:43.53`	`Legorol`	`Iriel, i noticed GetAnchorType too, any idea what it does?`
`22:43.56`	`kergoth`	`muahah, i love this mod to the original quake, running in a superior engine. chopping each others limbs off and beating each other to death with them`
`22:43.59`	`kergoth`	`so much fun`
`22:44.02`	`krka`	`will be interesting to see if anything useful comes from it`
`22:45.02`	`Legorol`	`are the bitlib functions in a table like bitlib. or something?`
`22:45.10`	`Iriel`	`bit`
`22:45.40`	`Iriel`	`GetAnchorType tells you which direction the frame is anchored from its parent, I believe`
`22:47.52`	`Iriel`	`I dont really use visible tooltips for anything though, so i'm guessing`
`22:49.17`	`MoonWolf`	`yeah, the only tooltip i ever used was invisible simply so i could dump an item in it and read it.`
`22:49.20`	`MoonWolf`	`stupid system.`
`22:50.00`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Auzhia_ (n=chatzill@user-0cev015.cable.mindspring.com)`
`22:50.39`	`Iriel`	`Anyone know who Flisher on the forum is?`
`22:50.47`	`Iriel`	`They claim to be part of the cosmos dev team`
`22:52.44`	`Iriel`	`But they also claimed blizzaed change stuff between test and live, but haven't been back to give examples of any`
`22:54.13`	`Legorol`	`Iriel, have you got a few minutes? I need someone to explain to me what the UnitBuff function is, how it used to work, and what are the new changes to it`
`22:54.38`	`Legorol`	`in particular, what is the 2nd "index" parameter of UnitBuff?`
`22:55.00`	`Legorol`	`and yes i did look at the wowwiki :-)`
`22:55.20`	`Iriel`	`Sure..`
`22:55.49`	`Iriel`	`UnitBuff returns the texture to display for the buffs on a unit.. You basically iterate over the buffs until you get a new value`
`22:56.00`	`Legorol`	`iterate over them?`
`22:56.04`	`Iriel`	`UnitBuff("party1", 1) UnitBuff("party1", 2) etc`
`22:56.11`	`Iriel`	`loop through the indices`
`22:56.18`	`Legorol`	`so those refer to the buffs that are currently on that unit`
`22:56.27`	`Iriel`	`That you know about yes`
`22:56.34`	`Legorol`	`right`
`22:56.37`	`Iriel`	`(i.e. enemy units without detect magic have none)`
`22:56.43`	`Legorol`	`makes sense`
`22:56.52`	`Iriel`	`the new flag simply means that it ignores those you can't cast yourself`
`22:56.53`	`Legorol`	`a question here: if a buff expires from a unit,`
`22:57.03`	`Legorol`	`does the corresponding UnitBuff(unit, 2) say return nil?`
`22:57.09`	`Legorol`	`or what happens?`
`22:57.13`	`Iriel`	`They all slide down to fill the gap`
`22:57.20`	`Iriel`	`it's always 1..N with no gaps`
`22:57.22`	`Legorol`	`right`
`22:57.39`	`Legorol`	`so the indices are in one-to-one correspondence with the actual visible buff icons on the screen`
`22:57.42`	`Iriel`	`so if you have 3 buffs, you'll have 1, 2, 3`
`22:57.55`	`Iriel`	`then if 1 expires, you'll have 1, 2 but they'll be the old 2.3`
`22:57.57`	`Iriel`	`yes, 1:1`
`22:58.02`	`Legorol`	`right, makes sense`
`22:58.04`	`Iriel`	`The UNIT buffs`
`22:58.06`	`Legorol`	`and this new flag?`
`22:58.06`	`Iriel`	`Not PLAYER buffs`
`22:58.09`	`Iriel`	`they are different.`
`22:58.11`	`Legorol`	`ehm..`
`22:58.18`	`Legorol`	`what's the difference? :-)`
`22:58.20`	`Iriel`	`So the ones on the target and party frame`
`22:58.24`	`Iriel`	`they're the unit ones`
`22:58.27`	`Legorol`	`ah right`
`22:58.32`	`Iriel`	`the ones on the right by your minimap are player ones`
`22:58.37`	`Iriel`	`Player ones are categorized and have more info`
`22:58.39`	`Legorol`	`ok, thanks for explaining that`
`22:58.49`	`Iriel`	`It's not that important, but some dont show up on both lists`
`22:58.50`	`Legorol`	`does indexing of player buffs work the same way though?`
`22:58.51`	`Iriel`	`Okay.. so the new flag`
`22:59.01`	`Legorol`	`i.e. sliding down to fill gaps`
`22:59.17`	`Iriel`	`If "party1" had 3 buffs before, 1, 2, and 3 , and say the 2nd one is mark of the wild, and you're a druid`
`22:59.26`	`Iriel`	`(Re: player buffs, Yes, pretty much)`
`22:59.42`	`Legorol`	`ok, please do carry on`
`22:59.45`	`Legorol`	`sorry for the diversion`
`22:59.56`	`Iriel`	`Assuming buffs 1 and 3 are from say, food, then if you passed in the new flag to UnitBuff, i.e. UnitBuff("party1", i, 1)`
`23:00.07`	`Iriel`	`Then you'd only get a hit on index 1, which would be mark of the wild`
`23:00.12`	`Legorol`	`right`
`23:00.15`	`Legorol`	`and not on index 2?`
`23:00.21`	`Legorol`	`so it also compacts the list.`
`23:00.24`	`Iriel`	`yes`
`23:00.41`	`Iriel`	`which is why it's terribly important you ALSO pass the flag to GameToolip:SetUnitBuff`
`23:00.41`	`Legorol`	`hm, so it is potentially difficult to match buffs to one another in the two lists`
`23:00.56`	`Legorol`	`right, i see what you mean`
`23:01.05`	`Iriel`	`well, it'd only be tricky if you had two buffs with the same texture`
`23:01.12`	`Iriel`	`but one was and one wasn't filtered`
`23:01.21`	`Iriel`	`In that case you'd need to use a tooltip to differentiate`
`23:01.29`	`Legorol`	`well i mean`
`23:01.34`	`Legorol`	`even if the textures are unique,`
`23:01.37`	`Iriel`	`I suspect most (all?) of the time it'd be enough to compare textures`
`23:01.43`	`Legorol`	`you have to do some iterations etc. to match them up`
`23:01.51`	`Iriel`	`well yes, you'd a have to iterate`
`23:01.57`	`Iriel`	`Though I suspect they remain in the same order`
`23:01.59`	`Legorol`	`e.g. let's say i want to find out the ids (in the full, unfiltered list) of all castable buffs`
`23:02.03`	`Legorol`	`that'd be hard?`
`23:02.10`	`Iriel`	`I dont think it'd be that hard`
`23:02.17`	`Legorol`	`or rather, involve a double loop of sorts..`
`23:02.30`	`Iriel`	`just get the first castable one, loop through the unfiltered listuntil you findit`
`23:02.38`	`Legorol`	`yeah that'd work`
`23:02.42`	`Iriel`	`You would need a double loop BUT`
`23:02.42`	`Legorol`	`then it's only one loop`
`23:02.45`	`krka`	`what would be the point of that?`
`23:02.59`	`Iriel`	`You could always start your inner search after the previous result`
`23:03.04`	`Legorol`	`well let's say i wanted to display the full list, but display castable ones in a different place or soemthing like that`
`23:03.18`	`Legorol`	`that was just a random idea`
`23:03.23`	`Iriel`	`So the search is O(2N) rather than O(N^2)`
`23:03.27`	`Legorol`	`yeah`
`23:03.29`	`krka`	`best thing would be to make a table of which buffs are castable`
`23:03.39`	`Legorol`	`i guess with maximum 16 buffs that's not too much of a difference`
`23:03.41`	`Iriel`	`krka: But then you'd have to maintain that`
`23:03.45`	`krka`	`which is O(N) :P`
`23:04.03`	`krka`	`isn't that pretty static though?`
`23:04.06`	`Iriel`	`krka: Whereas Legorol's suggestion is blizzard-maintained`
`23:04.18`	`Legorol`	`so Iriel, do you think the ordering match between the two lists guaranteed?`
`23:04.19`	`Iriel`	`I certainly wouldn't want to do it`
`23:04.20`	`krka`	`let the addon generate the table automatically`
`23:04.31`	`Iriel`	`Legorol : I'm almost certain it is.`
`23:04.39`	`Legorol`	`ok`
`23:04.48`	`Legorol`	`i also have a related question since you brought up player buffs`
`23:04.48`	`Iriel`	`I still think using the built in function would be faster, given the cases where you have multiple buffs with the same icon`
`23:04.54`	`krka`	`the ordering should be display order for both`
`23:04.56`	`Legorol`	`i see there is a GetPlayerBuff function etc.`
`23:05.10`	`Legorol`	`how are the ids for teh player buffs related to the ids of UnitBuff("player"..)?`
`23:05.25`	`Legorol`	`is UnitBuff("player", x) even a valid call?`
`23:05.33`	`Iriel`	`Since not all of the player buffs show up in UnitBuff, I think it's a similar issue`
`23:05.38`	`Iriel`	`yes, you can use UnitBuff on player`
`23:05.51`	`Iriel`	`A common mistake is for people to mix UnitBuff and CancelPlayerBuff`
`23:06.00`	`Legorol`	`can you give me some example of what doesn't occur in UnitBuff?`
`23:06.07`	`Legorol`	`ouch, that would cause problem :-)`
`23:06.11`	`Legorol`	`cancelling the wrong buff..`
`23:06.13`	`Iriel`	`I think 'Mounted' may be one`
`23:06.19`	`Iriel`	`but I'm not certain offhand`
`23:06.24`	`Iriel`	`it's that kind of thing, tho`
`23:06.25`	`krka`	`maybe fishing rod`
`23:06.36`	`Legorol`	`so from this, am i right in that the Blizz UI code doesn't use UnitBuff("player") anywhere?`
`23:06.39`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Osagasu (n=NOYB@rhhe10-109.2wcm.comporium.net)`
`23:07.10`	`Iriel`	`Not explicitly`
`23:07.11`	`Legorol`	`i can't think of any other UI element that displays the player's buffs except for the stuff in top right`
`23:07.14`	`Iriel`	`though UnitFrames might`
`23:07.23`	`Iriel`	`I dont think 'player' has a debuff rollover tho`
`23:07.29`	`Iriel`	`(Everything we said for buffs applies for debuffs)`
`23:07.44`	`Legorol`	`so UnitDebuff("player") doesn't work?`
`23:07.51`	`Iriel`	`No, it works`
`23:07.58`	`Iriel`	`it just doesn't match the 'PlayerDebuff' versions`
`23:08.06`	`Legorol`	`right`
`23:08.15`	`Legorol`	`so let's say i target myself`
`23:08.20`	`Iriel`	`I believe it's true to say that if UnitIsUnit(X,Y) then UnitBuff(X, i) == UnitBuff(Y, i)`
`23:08.26`	`Iriel`	`to answer your next questio preemptiveluy`
`23:08.27`	`Iriel`	`8-)`
`23:08.30`	`Legorol`	`lol`
`23:08.38`	`Legorol`	`i was going to ask, with myself targeted,`
`23:08.48`	`Legorol`	`i get a list of buffs on the target frame as well as my own player buffs`
`23:08.56`	`Iriel`	`yes`
`23:09.01`	`Legorol`	`i take it the ones on the target frame are just obtained using UnitBuff("target") in Blizz code`
`23:09.03`	`Iriel`	`let me go test that with mounted right now`
`23:09.04`	`Iriel`	`Yes.`
`23:09.13`	`Legorol`	`don't worry about testing`
`23:09.19`	`Legorol`	`i probably shouldn't try to understand all at once`
`23:09.26`	`Iriel`	`I want to know for future reference 8-)`
`23:09.26`	`Legorol`	`it's just that i never ever looked at any buff related code ;-)`
`23:09.39`	`Legorol`	`i am also not sure i got the terminology right 100%`
`23:09.41`	`futrtrubl`	`can I use a false boolean as a key in a table? and if so how would I define that?`
`23:09.45`	`Iriel`	`And I have 2 machines 8-)`
`23:09.46`	`Legorol`	`a "buff" is something beneficial, right?`
`23:09.50`	`Iriel`	`futrtrubl : yes you can use [false]`
`23:10.02`	`futrtrubl`	`thanks iriel`
`23:10.03`	`Legorol`	`if I cast a beneficial spell on me, that's a buff i take it`
`23:10.11`	`Iriel`	`yes`
`23:10.15`	`Legorol`	`if an enemy casts a beneficial spell on themselves, is that also called a buff?`
`23:10.30`	`Osagasu`	`yes`
`23:10.42`	`Legorol`	`if i cast a non-beneficial spell on enemy, or if i receive a non-beneficial spell from an enemy, that's a debuff`
`23:10.46`	`Osagasu`	`they're buffing themselves`
`23:10.48`	`Legorol`	`is that correct?`
`23:10.54`	`Osagasu`	`yes`
`23:10.56`	`Legorol`	`ok`
`23:11.02`	`Legorol`	`this did confuse me for a while :-)`
`23:11.04`	`Osagasu`	`hehe, noob. :P`
`23:11.12`	`Legorol`	`well i thought that "buff" is something that's good for me`
`23:11.15`	`Legorol`	`and "debuff" is bad for me`
`23:11.28`	`Legorol`	`so if i cast something that does damage to the enemy, that'd be a buff :-)`
`23:11.38`	`Iriel`	`It's relatiev to the 'recipient'`
`23:11.43`	`Iriel`	`Damn I can't type today`
`23:11.46`	`Legorol`	`yeah i understand now`
`23:11.56`	`Legorol`	`i just wanted to make sure as i was confused about it for a while`
`23:11.59`	`Legorol`	`:-)`
`23:12.04`	`Iriel`	`Mounted and eating and the cheese bonus all show up on both lists by the way`
`23:12.11`	`Legorol`	`right`
`23:12.19`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Kaelten (n=Kaelten@pcp0010773238pcs.mobilh01.al.comcast.net)`
`23:12.30`	`*** mode/#WoWI-lounge [+o Kaelten] by ChanServ`
`23:12.49`	`Legorol`	`i also had something else about terminology, trying to remember what`
`23:13.01`	`Legorol`	`something relating to decursing`
`23:13.12`	`Legorol`	`what would you say the word "decurse" means?`
`23:13.17`	`Kaelten`	`hello guys`
`23:13.21`	`Legorol`	`hi Kaelten`
`23:13.25`	`Iriel`	`decurse means removing debuffs from your friends`
`23:13.42`	`Legorol`	`so when i cast Purge on an enemy to remove a buff they cast on themselves,`
`23:13.44`	`Legorol`	`what's that called?`
`23:14.04`	`Iriel`	`I dont know if there's a terminology there 8-)`
`23:14.16`	`Iriel`	`beyond 'Purging'`
`23:14.30`	`Legorol`	`oh i remember now.. i used to think that's called "debuff"`
`23:14.37`	`Legorol`	`analogous to "decurse"`
`23:14.40`	`Legorol`	`that's what was confusing me!`
`23:15.10`	`Iriel`	`Ah yes, that would be confusing`
`23:15.16`	`Legorol`	`bah, why can't these games use some sensible terminology..`
`23:15.25`	`Legorol`	`why is "debuff" a noun and "decurse" a verb`
`23:15.27`	`Legorol`	`:-)`
`23:15.44`	`Iriel`	`I think debuff is both`
`23:15.53`	`Legorol`	`analogous to "to buff"?`
`23:15.58`	`Iriel`	`though unbuff would be a verb only`
`23:16.13`	`Legorol`	`right`
`23:16.45`	`Iriel`	`especially since 'buff' and 'debuff' are verbs used as nouns, really.. Since they apply to active 'things'`
`23:17.22`	`Legorol`	`fair enough`
`23:17.31`	`Iriel`	`decurse = dedebuff`
`23:17.32`	`Iriel`	`8-)`
`23:17.34`	`Legorol`	`so removing a debuff from yourself is to "decurse"`
`23:17.44`	`Legorol`	`no wonder i was confused in the past :-)`
`23:18.17`	`Legorol`	`so what shall one call buff removal ;-)`
`23:19.00`	`Iriel`	`buff purging or buff removal would be fine, and unambiguous, though not necessarily catchy`
`23:19.19`	`Iriel`	`unbuff would be fairly unambiguous too`
`23:19.39`	`Legorol`	`i propose: if (de-debuff == decurse) then (de-buff == curse) end`
`23:19.40`	`Legorol`	`:-)`
`23:19.54`	`Legorol`	`although applying is a curse puts a debuff on :/`
`23:19.58`	`Legorol`	`meh, i give up`
`23:20.06`	`kremonte`	`but not all debuffs are curses!`
`23:20.20`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge Parak (n=profi@user-12hdr8d.cable.mindspring.com)`
`23:20.27`	`Legorol`	`hm, now that i think about it, buff removal is a form of debuff`
`23:20.32`	`Iriel`	`yes you can't put those hyphens where you did`
`23:20.46`	`Iriel`	`(de-debuff = de-dcurse --> debuff = curse)`
`23:20.46`	`Legorol`	`and in fact matches more with what i'd expect the word "debuff" to stand for`
`23:20.50`	`Iriel`	`which is more or less how it's used`
`23:21.15`	`Legorol`	`ok thanks for the pointless but fun discussion :-)`
`23:24.58`	`Codayus`	`Hmmm.`
`23:25.02`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge phil_ (n=phil@ppp233-95.lns2.adl4.internode.on.net)`
`23:25.06`	`Codayus`	`I can't login to the official forums.`
`23:25.11`	`Codayus`	`"Login failure" :-/`
`23:25.20`	`Iriel`	`Is today your account renewal day?`
`23:25.32`	`Codayus`	`I...have no idea`
`23:25.54`	`Iriel`	`Check the account management page`
`23:25.59`	`futrtrubl`	`I get login failures far too often for it to be happening only on my renewal days`
`23:26.39`	`Iriel`	`There's a specific flavor of failure (which implies your account doesn't exist) which you get on renewal day`
`23:26.49`	`Iriel`	`As opposed to the more general broken-login-server ones`
`23:26.51`	`Codayus`	`Next bill date is... Yeah, Nov 27th.`
`23:27.02`	`Iriel`	`Welcome to billing purgatory`
`23:27.06`	`Iriel`	`It's a most unpleasant time`
`23:27.14`	`Codayus`	`Grrr.`
`23:28.09`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, I see my todays payment is listed as "pending"...`
`23:28.26`	`futrtrubl`	`maybe I should pay every three months then, less down time on the forums ;']`
`23:28.41`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, I bet that's there plan...`
`23:28.45`	`Codayus`	`IT'S A PLOT!`
`23:28.55`	`futrtrubl`	`CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!`
`23:28.58`	`Iriel`	`heh`
`23:29.36`	`futrtrubl`	`but they should change that, if you can log in to the game you should be able to log in to the forums.`
`23:29.58`	`Iriel`	`they dont seem to care`
`23:30.03`	`Codayus`	`A.) Their forum authentication sucks.`
`23:30.25`	`Iriel`	`I submitted it to their support folks when it happened to me and the response was basically "yes, that's how it works"`
`23:30.29`	`Codayus`	`B.) They probably shouldn't change it. If they did, the probabale result would be that you could log into the game either. :-)`
`23:30.47`	`Codayus`	`... And C.) Their forum software sucks in general, really.`
`23:30.53`	`futrtrubl`	`probably Codayus`
`23:31.54`	`Iriel`	`The best workaround is to use the 6 month subscription plan`
`23:32.01`	`Iriel`	`I only have to suffer twice a year`
`23:32.06`	`Iriel`	`(less, given the number of free days)`
`23:32.26`	`Codayus`	`Hmm, I've been paying monthly since launch.`
`23:32.36`	`Iriel`	`So far my next day of pain is scheduled to be the 19th`
`23:32.42`	`Iriel`	`of january`
`23:33.11`	`Codayus`	`I mostly don't notice it though, because I don't post on the official forums very often.`
`23:33.24`	`Iriel`	`Assuming they dont give us any more credits between now and then`
`23:33.36`	`futrtrubl`	`Iriel, I'll laugh if Jan 19th ends up being a patch day ;']`
`23:34.01`	`Iriel`	`25 free days so far`
`23:34.11`	`Temdoingwork`	`I disagree`
`23:34.13`	`Iriel`	`It's a wednesday`
`23:34.20`	`Temdoingwork`	`Decurse is to remove a CURSE`
`23:34.35`	`futrtrubl`	`damn, we need 6 more free days then Iriel ;']`
`23:35.59`	`Iriel`	`heh, free days tend to imply earlier suffering`
`23:35.59`	`Codayus`	`Dammit, it's COLD.`
`23:36.06`	`Iriel`	`so i'd rather have the game work 8-)`
`23:37.11`	`Temdoingwork`	`Sorry, I'm about an hour behind in the conversation`
`23:37.50`	`Temdoingwork`	`anyway, It's time for me to get on the road.. Gotta go to bestbuy and replace my headset again, and MC at 8`
`23:38.00`	`futrtrubl`	`is table.insert table.getn friendly?`
`23:38.11`	`Iriel`	`yes`
`23:38.38`	`futrtrubl`	`thanks again Iriel`
`23:38.43`	`Temdoingwork`	`futrtrubl: BEWARE: table.inserts will break a for i=1 to table.getn .. loop`
`23:38.52`	`Iriel`	`No they will not`
`23:38.56`	`Temdoingwork`	`oh?`
`23:39.15`	`Iriel`	`table.getn/table.insert/table.remove all play well together`
`23:39.17`	`Temdoingwork`	`Well, I guess I had another bug in that...`
`23:39.33`	`Iriel`	`it's people who insist on changing the tables themselves and NOT updating table.setn who have problems`
`23:40.02`	`Iriel`	`Once you've used table.insert or table.remove on a table, NEVER play with it yourself unless you know what you're doing (i.e. unless you manage getn/setn)`
`23:40.07`	`Temdoingwork`	`But I thought a for loop evaluated it's conditions only once`
`23:40.23`	`Iriel`	`Oh.. you mean if you do inserts in the middle?`
`23:40.27`	`Temdoingwork`	`like the table.getn call would resolve into a number that it would check`
`23:40.29`	`Iriel`	`On, yes, that'd break 8-)`
`23:40.35`	`futrtrubl`	`that would be... painful`
`23:41.03`	`Iriel`	`I thought you were accusing them of being more fundamentally broken 8-)`
`23:41.04`	`Temdoingwork`	`However, an iterator won't break`
`23:41.10`	`Temdoingwork`	`oh, no`
`23:41.50`	`Iriel`	`I think you should have specified that doing table.inserts in the MIDDLE of a for i=1, table.getn loop leads to unexpected issues 8-)`
`23:41.58`	`Temdoingwork`	`well`
`23:42.04`	`Temdoingwork`	`you should have read my mind`
`23:42.11`	`Iriel`	`I'd rather not`
`23:42.12`	`Iriel`	`8-)`
`23:42.22`	`Iriel`	`I might crash`
`23:42.34`	`Temdoingwork`	`heh`
`23:42.45`	`Temdoingwork`	`aww my brain isn't that confusing`
`23:42.47`	`Iriel`	`Ok.. i'm off for a while.`
`23:42.50`	`Temdoingwork`	`ok well maybe it is`
`23:43.08`	`Iriel`	`keep my thread updated with any changes i've missed`
`23:43.16`	`Iriel`	`But I think I got all the known ones now`
`23:43.24`	`Temdoingwork`	`Anyway, I'm out too... I need to go make BestBuy regret that they sold me a replacement plan for only 5 dollars`
`23:43.27`	`*** part/#wowi-lounge Cide (i=Cide@81-226-233-223-no60.tbcn.telia.com)`
`23:43.56`	`Temdoingwork`	`(I've broken my headset twice in the last month)`
`23:44.00`	`futrtrubl`	`Tem, your mind is a looped table`
`23:44.16`	`Temdoingwork`	`No`
`23:44.22`	`Temdoingwork`	`It just has cycles`
`23:44.36`	`Temdoingwork`	`and sometimes uses itself as a key`
`23:44.47`	`Temdoingwork`	`TemBrain = {}`
`23:44.55`	`Temdoingwork`	`TemBrain[TemBrain] = TemBrain`
`23:44.56`	`futrtrubl`	`that's what I was trying to say, just badly`
`23:45.08`	`*** join/#wowi-lounge ToastTheif (i=ToastThe@24-177-151-62.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com)`
`23:45.36`	`Temdoingwork`	`wow that's pretty damn confusing`
`23:45.43`	`Temdoingwork`	`must go before I hurt myself`
`23:45.46`	`Temdoingwork`	`Later guys`
`23:45.50`	`futrtrubl`	`later`

Generated by irclog2html.pl by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net! Modified by Tim Riker to work with blootbot logs, split per channel, etc.