| 00:22.12 | JunkHead | So im sitting here waiting for a rare. im on my warrior. |
| 00:22.17 | JunkHead | another warrior is standing there too. |
| 00:22.23 | JunkHead | he comes up to me and opens trade. |
| 00:22.34 | JunkHead | about 30 seconds later, he gives me a strength flask |
| 00:22.42 | JunkHead | i said "ty". completely confused |
| 00:22.54 | JunkHead | and he says "gotta fuck shit up bruh" |
| 00:23.14 | JunkHead | that was the whole conversation |
| 00:24.35 | Amarande | JunkHead: then you got disconnected and ended up back in a queue that somewhat resembles the Atlanta airport security line? :) |
| 00:24.50 | JunkHead | I've been to the atlanta airport. oh god no..... |
| 00:25.20 | Amarande | apparently people are getting 3+ hour queues sometimes this expansion launch |
| 00:25.39 | Amarande | I remember how smooth MoP's launch was, this one apparently is not, it makes me glad I decided not to put down the 50 bucks up front this time, that I instead got FFXIV heh |
| 00:26.24 | Mr_Rabies | as bad as the queue is at least you don't have hartsfield airport employees hassling you constantly |
| 00:39.20 | ncsu | well leaving myself logged in being attacked by a lvl 5 wolf didnt keep me logged in while i was gone to dinner...in queue at 3350 now |
| 00:39.31 | ncsu | i need another plan to stay logged in while gone |
| 00:40.51 | JunkHead | that sucks |
| 00:41.01 | JunkHead | uhh.... |
| 00:41.02 | ncsu | maybe program a little program in c++ that just simulates pressing the W key every min or so to make it think i moved |
| 00:44.04 | ncsu | 3320 @ 800 mins lol |
| 00:44.40 | JunkHead | theres a tiny bit of lag now |
| 00:47.55 | JunkHead | yeah lag is starting to kick in now |
| 00:50.11 | ncsu | well it is 850am in china so the hackers are getting back to work |
| 00:53.53 | Amarande | ncsu: that program might save you about ... hmm ... I'd say, 180 bucks a year? ... LOL |
| 00:54.38 | ncsu | how would it save me money? im just thinking it would save me frustration from login queues |
| 00:54.51 | Amarande | ncsu: that's how much money you won't be paying Blizzard after you get banned for botting |
| 00:54.57 | Amarande | heh |
| 00:55.03 | ncsu | hmmm..good point |
| 00:55.14 | loozerr | ncsu, why not afk in stockades, letting a mob hit you so you stay in combat (no autokick in combat) |
| 00:55.38 | ncsu | i went afk in that area outside stormrage with a lvl 5 wolf hitting me |
| 00:55.45 | ncsu | but i came back and was logged out... |
| 00:55.56 | loozerr | could've been killed by another player |
| 00:56.01 | ncsu | not sure if just normally got logged out or maybe server crash or anything |
| 00:56.04 | ncsu | on pve server |
| 00:56.18 | loozerr | you can't kill wolves on a pve server? |
| 00:56.42 | ncsu | oh you mean another player killed it...thought you meant i got killed by another |
| 00:57.04 | ncsu | i guess it could be possible but i pusposefully went to pretty remote corner of the zone thinking that might happen |
| 01:22.29 | Kane_Hart | 243/246 servers are full right now with a Queue..... |
| 01:23.16 | Amarande | yow |
| 01:23.37 | Amarande | and I'm guessing all those Combined Realms share a single server's worth of capacity now for everyone in the group, instead of that many servers' X the regular capacity? |
| 01:26.35 | *** join/#wowhead Atorro (4e341361@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.52.19.97) |
| 01:28.56 | Mr_Rabies | not full, Kane_Hart, locked |
| 01:29.05 | Mr_Rabies | i wish they were full :< |
| 01:29.24 | Mr_Rabies | they're just in agressive "stability at all costs" mode right now |
| 01:29.54 | ncsu | Stormrage - 3058 @ 1360 mins :( |
| 01:30.12 | *** join/#wowhead Destidom (~Destidom@179.80-202-180.nextgentel.com) |
| 01:30.26 | Amarande | yeah, that's what Locked means |
| 01:30.32 | Amarande | Locked means it's ACTUALLY full and there's a queue |
| 01:30.39 | Amarande | I'm not entirely sure what "Full" is exactly supposed to mean, heh |
| 01:30.40 | Mr_Rabies | well, stormrage is probably actually full |
| 01:30.53 | Amarande | since generally speaking if it's "Full" you can still log on and even create characters without delay |
| 01:30.56 | Mr_Rabies | but all realms are currently locked to keep things tsable right now |
| 01:31.03 | Mr_Rabies | stable |
| 01:31.11 | Amarande | you only get a queue if it's "Locked" |
| 01:31.12 | Mr_Rabies | which means significantly reduced max players, etc |
| 01:31.19 | Amarande | (and can still create a character ... after you wait for your queue, of course, heh) |
| 01:31.45 | Mr_Rabies | they really should open up free transfers from stormrage |
| 01:32.40 | Mr_Rabies | now's as good a time as ever to fight the FOTM rerolling to that realm however possible |
| 01:33.00 | Amarande | FOTM? Stormrage has always been a top pop realm |
| 01:33.17 | Amarande | presumably people rolling there are going there to be with their buddies or to like, no longer be on a dead realm |
| 01:33.46 | Amarande | let's not see them pull the New Players Dead Realm scam again, either |
| 01:33.48 | Mr_Rabies | people have been slowly collecting on a few realms for a few years now and it's killing the other realms |
| 01:33.59 | Mr_Rabies | hardcore |
| 01:34.02 | Amarande | well, not much you can do a bout that in a social game |
| 01:34.16 | Mr_Rabies | they could just not let you transfer to it and offer free transfers off of it |
| 01:34.26 | Mr_Rabies | until things stabilize |
| 01:34.42 | Amarande | and as for New Players Dead Realm |
| 01:34.50 | Amarande | a lot of people do get the feeling that one was a deliberate scam |
| 01:35.04 | Amarande | for the longest time, the recommended realm for new players would always be some absolutely hopelessly dead one |
| 01:35.29 | Mr_Rabies | i wouldn't say that's a scam, it's probably not a good business decision |
| 01:35.35 | Amarande | I don't think they stopped doing that till the time Ysera became one of the New Players realms and actually became a very solidly populated realm after that |
| 01:35.56 | Amarande | Mr_Rabies: the usually believed scam is the idea that people were encouraged to start on a poorly populated realm |
| 01:36.12 | Mr_Rabies | i really wish they'd just get rid of paid transfers altogether and then just stop transfers to realms with queues until queues are gone |
| 01:36.12 | Amarande | in the hopes that they would get frustrated when they hit max level and would feel the need to purchase a transfer to get somewhere where they can get a guild and group |
| 01:36.23 | Mr_Rabies | eh i doubt it |
| 01:36.25 | Mr_Rabies | that's a bad gamble |
| 01:36.29 | Mr_Rabies | most people just will stop playing |
| 01:37.10 | Amarande | dead realms also seem an inevitable one of the two choices of the great launch dilemma, sadly |
| 01:37.19 | Mr_Rabies | they just need to keep the queues going on stormrage for a bit longer then open up free transfers away |
| 01:37.28 | Mr_Rabies | hopefully that'll fix a lot of things |
| 01:37.44 | Amarande | either you end up with like now, or when FFXIV V2 launched, where the servers are so overcrowded you can't get in for a week |
| 01:37.56 | Mr_Rabies | i have zero sympathy for people waiting in queue on stormrage at this point after everyone contributed to killing a ton of realms by xfering there |
| 01:37.59 | Amarande | or you have plenty of servers to take the launch load, which seems to have been their shtick in past expansions |
| 01:38.12 | Amarande | and then you get a bunch of realms that are dead as a doornail after the initial surge subsides |
| 01:38.38 | Amarande | I think SW:TOR had the "too many servers" thing at launch too, from what I've gathered |
| 01:38.39 | ncsu | well i have been on stormrage for about 8 years now...so i didnt just transfer there |
| 01:39.03 | Amarande | there's a lot of servers that I've heard of in TOR that don't exist anymore, apparently because after the initial launch frenzy subsided, they started merging realms to accommodate the dropped population |
| 01:39.18 | Mr_Rabies | yeah i know a lot of people who are innocent still are unfortunately victim to all the rerollers, but |
| 01:39.27 | Amarande | yeah, I've only ever done paid transfers twice in my WoW lifetime |
| 01:39.33 | Amarande | if I started over on a new realm, I started OVER |
| 01:39.47 | Mr_Rabies | i've been told that i should xfer away from my dead realm enough times that i just don't have any sympathy left |
| 01:39.56 | Amarande | rerolled, only continuing benefits being (since 5.0) the account mounts and pets |
| 01:40.01 | ncsu | and i would transfer off stormrage if it were free....or if i only have 1 character to worry about ...but i have multiple that i want to keep |
| 01:40.31 | Amarande | it's nice to be on an Amber Scorpion the moment you hit 20 though :) |
| 01:40.39 | Mr_Rabies | they really should open free xfers off to a select set of dead realms now while there's a constant queue on SR |
| 01:40.54 | Amarande | I transferred from Turalyon to Quel'dorei and back to Turalyon during the last months of BC |
| 01:41.21 | Amarande | that, because leveling was still a fairly slow process back then vs. now, and because there simply was no action for a fresh 70 warlock at that point when you couldn't promise 5 nights a week for raiding |
| 01:41.21 | nebula169 | everyone has a constant queue... i have friends on really low pop servers and they still have to wait hours to get online |
| 01:41.37 | Mr_Rabies | maybe enough would xfer off to fix the dead realms and permanently keep stormrage from "that realm everyone transfers to" status |
| 01:41.42 | Amarande | not on Turalyon, anyway |
| 01:41.53 | Amarande | there was on QD, which I actually selected specifically BECAUSE its raid progression sucked |
| 01:42.02 | Amarande | which meant, logically, that a fresh 70 should have a much better shot at a group |
| 01:42.35 | Amarande | Turalyon had already been at the "LFM heroics, have your T5!" stage for aeons |
| 01:42.51 | Amarande | mind you, BC heroics WERE pretty damn brutal, in their defence |
| 01:42.52 | Mr_Rabies | i just can't really figure out why blizzard allowed stormrage to get so overcrowded while letting so many other realms slowly strangle for so long |
| 01:43.18 | Amarande | The ONLY place I've seen party-tier dungeons that are as hard as BC heroics, is in LOTRO |
| 01:43.21 | Mr_Rabies | they should have stopped xfers to stormrage years ago |
| 01:43.31 | Amarande | (where the 6-mans are FRIGGIN brutal, I swear they're harder than the raids even) |
| 01:43.50 | Mr_Rabies | challenge modes were insane, did you do any of those in MoP |
| 01:44.02 | Amarande | nope. never got around to them |
| 01:44.18 | Mr_Rabies | and that's why no one wants that kinda content :p |
| 01:44.25 | Amarande | I guess Blizzard has just permitted players to choose which realm they socially want to be on |
| 01:44.40 | Amarande | there's not really much they can do about it without creating obstacles for incoming players |
| 01:44.57 | Mr_Rabies | well now they're having queues that don't clear up for 8+ hours, so it's gonna take some fixing |
| 01:45.03 | Mr_Rabies | even without the DDoS protection going on right now |
| 01:45.11 | Mr_Rabies | stormrage would have a queue for hours |
| 01:45.31 | Mr_Rabies | just way, way too much of the population has xfered there |
| 01:45.35 | Amarande | how, exactly, can they retain new blood in the game if they're told "oh, we're sorry, you CAN'T play with your friends ... you'll have to roll here on the OVERFLOW SERVER, if your friends wanna play with you without losing progress, well, maybe offer to pay their transfer fees? I dunno." |
| 01:45.40 | Mr_Rabies | and it's bleeding people off the small realms |
| 01:45.50 | Mr_Rabies | at the same time though, Amarande |
| 01:46.01 | Mr_Rabies | they're constantly losing people on countless low pop servers |
| 01:46.16 | Amarande | I still remember how FFXI had that World Pass system designed to force people to roll characters on servers in a load-balanced fashion |
| 01:46.37 | Amarande | which ... was even *more* lame, especially since FFXI had an even more absolute demand to be social than any more modern MMO |
| 01:46.43 | Amarande | it was probably the last of the "forced group" age of MMOs |
| 01:47.16 | Amarande | and that's one thing that's always a brutal challenge for MMOs ... how to combat attrition with new players |
| 01:47.23 | Amarande | especially since the game design tends to be so heavily slanted against newcomers |
| 01:47.42 | Amarande | oh, what's that, you didn't play the current raids the week they came out? oh, I'm sorry, you don't have enough experience ... NEXT! |
| 01:47.52 | Mr_Rabies | i'd be okay with leaving rolling new characters on stormrage |
| 01:48.13 | Mr_Rabies | but leaving transfers to it off until there is no login queue for at least a month |
| 01:48.27 | Amarande | that will never happen :p |
| 01:48.44 | Amarande | pretty sure the big 5 or so servers at least have queues on peak weekend hours no matter what the normal case might be |
| 01:48.53 | Mr_Rabies | it needs to get drastic, these small realms are really, really dying and connected realms is taking too long to happen |
| 01:49.01 | Amarande | also, it might be too little too late for WoW anyway |
| 01:49.11 | Amarande | I mean, if you've looked at wowprogress, say |
| 01:49.21 | Amarande | look how few realms had guilds that managed to do heroic Terrace when it was current |
| 01:49.31 | Amarande | and even mega servers like Illidan never sported more than 5 or 6 such guilds |
| 01:49.42 | Amarande | most servers didn't have any, many didn't have even one raid group that touched non-LFR Terrace |
| 01:49.52 | Mr_Rabies | heroic terrace was a weird thing |
| 01:49.58 | Amarande | with stats like that, if you tried to even out the population, there's a good chance you'd just spread it too thin for anyone to be able to achieve anything at all |
| 01:50.27 | Amarande | they really need to just *shut down* some dead realms and force merge |
| 01:50.29 | Mr_Rabies | then they need to very quickly get connected realms happening |
| 01:50.34 | Amarande | like EA has done over the years with SW:TOR |
| 01:50.43 | Mr_Rabies | that's the death knell for an mmo, though |
| 01:50.51 | Mr_Rabies | shutting down realms and force merging |
| 01:50.59 | Amarande | but the usual cynical opinion is that Activision won't allow it, because it means explaining to the stockholders why a revenue source is being foregone |
| 01:51.07 | Amarande | TOR seems to be doing pretty well still |
| 01:51.09 | Mr_Rabies | wow still has a ton of players, it's just that they're so concentrated now |
| 01:51.17 | Mr_Rabies | it's really not |
| 01:51.22 | Mr_Rabies | no mmo other than wow is really doing well |
| 01:51.30 | Mr_Rabies | they're staying afloat and that's about it |
| 01:51.55 | Amarande | they even have a new expansion pack coming out in December |
| 01:52.08 | Amarande | although, on the other hand, they did already fall back to the F2P business model |
| 01:52.22 | Mr_Rabies | another death knell for an mmo |
| 01:52.30 | Amarande | from what I've seen there are only four MMOs that look like they're really going strong with the sub-only model, sadly |
| 01:52.41 | Amarande | Eve, WoW, and the two Final Fantasy MMOs |
| 01:52.49 | Mr_Rabies | the only one really going strong at all is WoW |
| 01:52.59 | Mr_Rabies | the rest are so minor, free to pay or not |
| 01:53.09 | Mr_Rabies | er |
| 01:53.10 | Mr_Rabies | free to play |
| 01:53.14 | Amarande | Eve is really an exception to the whole rule though, and PROBABLY because it's so heavily PvP |
| 01:53.34 | Mr_Rabies | eve probably has what? about 8% of the population of wow in it? |
| 01:53.37 | Amarande | with that huge a slant towards PvP, players basically become the content, so a lot of the issues that plague other MMOs don't come up for Eve |
| 01:54.03 | Amarande | it's probably not a coincidence that games with enduring popularity of late tend more often than not to be PvP based |
| 01:54.19 | Amarande | also note the large amount of shift from MMO to MOBA, too, in that light |
| 01:54.42 | Amarande | FFXIV: ARR is still doing really well, though |
| 01:54.53 | Mr_Rabies | eh it's not really a shift in the traditional sense |
| 01:55.08 | Mr_Rabies | it's like saying that the "popular genre" going from platformer to FPS was a shift |
| 01:55.09 | Amarande | one might start to worry when they don't have any realms left where they have to X out character creation temporarily, but that is some considerable time off |
| 01:55.19 | Mr_Rabies | it really wasn't |
| 01:56.00 | Amarande | just a few months left till xpac, and still multiple servers in both Japan and NA/EU that are full enough that they regularly disallow character creation |
| 01:56.08 | Mr_Rabies | as of feb 2013 eve has 500k subs, which is the best number i can find, and wow has 7.4 mil as of the most recent earnings report |
| 01:56.24 | Amarande | WoW is mostly running on inertia, though |
| 01:56.35 | Amarande | it's been in a very steady decline for years, and much more dramatically so than other MMOs |
| 01:57.14 | Amarande | and it pulsates worse than an asymptotic giant branch star at that, with the end of expansion ennui phases getting increasingly worse over time |
| 01:58.06 | Mr_Rabies | i think if wow goes down, the genre will basically just collapse |
| 01:58.09 | Mr_Rabies | at this rate |
| 01:58.22 | Amarande | well, if WoW goes down, it will probably be *because* the whole genre collapsed |
| 01:58.23 | Amarande | maybe |
| 01:58.24 | Mr_Rabies | wow still has about 40% of the market share as far as i can tell |
| 01:58.35 | Amarande | I still think Square might be able to pull something to reinvigorate the genre |
| 01:58.41 | Mr_Rabies | and literally everything else makes up the other 60%, with the top competition having less than 10% |
| 01:58.58 | Mr_Rabies | which was lineage 1 as of 2013 |
| 01:59.05 | Amarande | the fact that Square isn't hobbled by being someone else's subsidiary really helps their cause, too |
| 01:59.23 | Amarande | they're like, one of two AAA devs I can think of that has that catbird seat still (the other of course is Valve) |
| 01:59.23 | Mr_Rabies | they are hobbled by being square, though |
| 02:00.00 | Mr_Rabies | i haven't really looked at square enix games as a mark of quality since... before they were Square Enix |
| 02:01.02 | Amarande | really the biggest general broad-brush issue I can think of with MMOs, is that combating attrition to ensure a game's longevity is a most vexing task |
| 02:01.20 | Amarande | it's also a problem more or less *unique to* MMOs, too, because for the most part game publishers don't WANT a game to have longevity |
| 02:01.33 | Amarande | the longer yesteryear's game stays popular, the harder it is to sell this year's :P |
| 02:02.33 | Amarande | exception of course for games where the business model is to puke out another round of nigh impossible puzzles every few weeks and sell anti-frustration devices (yes King I'm looking at you heh) |
| 02:02.51 | Mr_Rabies | the mmo bubble was brief and basically both created and popped by wow |
| 02:03.17 | Mr_Rabies | it's more popular of a genre than it was before wow started still, but it's slowly declining |
| 02:03.18 | Amarande | Got a craving for candy? Try Candy Crush Saga! Before long, the sight of candies will make your blood pressure rise unhealthily and OH GOD DON'T EVEN MENTION CHOCOLATE |
| 02:03.52 | Mr_Rabies | now if someone could ever come out with something as revolutionary as wow they'd probably do wonders |
| 02:04.12 | Mr_Rabies | but no one wants to take the risks wow did back in 2004, if anything it might be blizzard again |
| 02:04.28 | Amarande | the biggest problem with combating attrition, seems to be that players who aren't at the head of the curve nigh inevitably fall to a cycle of endless frustration |
| 02:04.44 | Amarande | because the players who ARE at the head of the curve don't want to go back and pull them up into the raid community |
| 02:04.49 | Mr_Rabies | wow's always addressed not being ahead of the curve very well |
| 02:04.55 | Mr_Rabies | and only gotten better with time |
| 02:05.03 | Amarande | largely, it seems, because of team jumprope style boss designs and the lockout system |
| 02:05.34 | Mr_Rabies | there are so many mechanics to springboard into raiding nowadays that there's basically no excuse unless you're just bad |
| 02:05.45 | Amarande | but on the OTHER hand, if you try to address the team jumprope design or relax lockouts |
| 02:06.00 | Mr_Rabies | i don't think team jumprope design is a thing and lockouts are pretty relaxed now |
| 02:06.01 | Amarande | then people tear through content faster, and an MMO lives and dies on its ability to keep people wanting to stay |
| 02:06.14 | raspy | yaya world server doiwna gain |
| 02:06.26 | JunkHead | world server down. |
| 02:06.36 | Amarande | yeah, maybe it's more the way the FFXIV Coil of Bahamut bosses are specifically, since most of the jumprope complaints I've seen are about them |
| 02:06.44 | Amarande | although it seems like that was the case for WoW bosses for a long time too |
| 02:06.57 | raspy | hit 94 though like 20 mins ago |
| 02:07.28 | Amarande | but yeah, when it's questioned why people don't go back and help newer folks learn more |
| 02:07.39 | Amarande | an awful lot of the weight seems to lie on the opportunity cost of doing so |
| 02:07.49 | Mr_Rabies | i'd say after TBC finished, there's been very few barriers to getting into raiding |
| 02:08.20 | Amarande | yeah, many of them are player made |
| 02:08.21 | Mr_Rabies | if you're not good enough to climb up that single step that's left now, you're unfortunately not good enough to get into raiding |
| 02:08.41 | Mr_Rabies | like |
| 02:08.55 | Mr_Rabies | we have a guy in our raid group with partial paralysis and he still does fine |
| 02:08.56 | Amarande | usually that there's a certain level of avoidance for taking on any greater level of challenge than necessary, unless you actually are a world first kinda guild |
| 02:09.07 | Mr_Rabies | he can't use one hand at all, and the other is missing fingers from surgery |
| 02:09.14 | Amarande | which leads to a demand, generally, for a lot more gearedness than you actually need |
| 02:09.35 | Amarande | interestingly, in "standard" RPGs, such an approach is usually considered cowardly :) |
| 02:09.43 | Mr_Rabies | not in my experience, outside of pugs |
| 02:10.23 | Amarande | but in the MMO, I suppose the fact that you've got 7 or 9 or 11 or 19 or 24 other people's feelings to consider, and most people don't want to be inconvenienced just for the sake of challenge for no extra reward is the issue |
| 02:10.47 | Mr_Rabies | the biggest barrier before WoD was basically set raid sizes |
| 02:10.50 | Mr_Rabies | now there's no real barrier |
| 02:10.52 | Amarande | I guess that's the thing, for the folks who were first starting raiding |
| 02:11.13 | Amarande | the usual process it seems people try to follow is to get into a group as a pug member, prove themselves, and go on from there |
| 02:11.29 | Amarande | and meanwhile established groups often keep their wagons pretty well circled |
| 02:11.40 | Mr_Rabies | that process hasn't really been viable since wrath |
| 02:12.21 | Mr_Rabies | people don't really run pugs for recruitment, they run pugs because they're bored |
| 02:12.53 | Amarande | mind you I guess you need a pretty strong cult of personality as a raid leader to tell your other 6 regular members that yes, you're going to take this random guy in without assurance of skill and with assurance that if you fail because of him, they've wasted their evening |
| 02:13.00 | Mr_Rabies | i could be seeing a lot of effects of having a low pop realm though |
| 02:13.05 | Amarande | either that or you need to be Linus and your raid mates all need to be like Sally, LOL |
| 02:13.19 | Mr_Rabies | every recruit we've taken in in the past 6 months or so has been disappointing |
| 02:13.27 | Mr_Rabies | we've taken in probably 10 and every single one has been awful |
| 02:13.28 | Amarande | and even Sally complained about being robbed and cheated after spending the night in the pumpkin patch for nothing :) |
| 02:14.14 | Amarande | are players just that bad nowadays? |
| 02:14.21 | Mr_Rabies | we outgeared heroic SoO so hard that we'd take people literally undergeared, not just "raid group construct undergeared" |
| 02:14.30 | Mr_Rabies | well, the raid was out for an entire year |
| 02:14.32 | Amarande | is that why the MMO bubble has been stalling, because most of the people who've got the talent to succeed in MMOs already are? |
| 02:15.03 | Mr_Rabies | so the only people still raiding either had established groups or were jumping from group to group trying for a carry |
| 02:15.10 | Mr_Rabies | by that point |
| 02:15.12 | Amarande | and probably the economy too, I suppose |
| 02:15.25 | Amarande | especially now with things like Obamacare in the US and its fell effect on part time work |
| 02:15.33 | Mr_Rabies | the real reason is that everyone who wants to play MMOs is playing them already |
| 02:15.55 | Mr_Rabies | the genre's a hard sell when every other game is basically just a 3d content tour of hallways nowadays |
| 02:16.05 | Amarande | if you have to get two jobs, even at 4 hours a day which is likely for part time work, chances are your shifts are going to be so random and scattered that you can't get in the needed reliable availability |
| 02:16.31 | Amarande | ... that sounds like most AAA games in general nowadays, heh |
| 02:16.54 | Mr_Rabies | so either you're still playing mmos, don't want to play mmos, or stopped playing them because you're tired of wow and everything else is just trying to be wow, but hasn't learned any lessons from whatever version of wow they're trying to copy |
| 02:16.58 | Amarande | RETURN TO THE COMBAT AREA! RETURN TO THE COMBAT AREA! RETURN TO THE COMBAT AREA! THIS IS WHY I DON'T PLAY CALL OF DUTY! |
| 02:17.27 | Amarande | which is probably why FFXIV looks like a possible breaker of the mold |
| 02:17.38 | Mr_Rabies | it just doesn't, to me |
| 02:17.41 | Amarande | it's certainly maintaining a noticeable level of popularity (servers regularly being full) |
| 02:17.47 | Mr_Rabies | it looks like every korean mmo ever to me |
| 02:17.52 | Amarande | and they have introduced some things I really haven't seen much at all of elsewhere |
| 02:17.54 | Mr_Rabies | i dont' really see it doing anything groundbreaking |
| 02:17.56 | Amarande | things like the FATEs |
| 02:18.13 | Mr_Rabies | those were basically in wow as of Cata, but as of WoD are everywhere |
| 02:18.20 | Amarande | usually something like that where you can just jump in, is reserved for momentous world events or banal seasonal stuff |
| 02:18.33 | Mr_Rabies | i like CoD: MW1/2 from this angle |
| 02:18.42 | Mr_Rabies | they're basically the modern quake 3 arena, or as close as you can get |
| 02:19.00 | Amarande | eh, the stuff like that I've seen in WoW didn't seem nearly so well implemented by comparison |
| 02:19.12 | Amarande | in particular, FATEs are timed, come and go, and don't leave behind any stale spawns or anything like that |
| 02:19.21 | Amarande | leftover FATE mobs despawn when the event is over |
| 02:19.29 | Mr_Rabies | WoD has pretty much honed them to an art, though i haven't seen much of it |
| 02:19.37 | Mr_Rabies | i'm still only 93 |
| 02:19.47 | Mr_Rabies | i'm taking my time and enjoying things |
| 02:19.48 | Amarande | in WoW, usually the mobs associated with such a setup represent a permanent obstacle to normal questing |
| 02:19.59 | Amarande | but that's the biggest sigh-worthy thing about WoW |
| 02:20.12 | Amarande | it used to be a pace setter, now most of the "new" stuff I see in WoW seems like it's cribbed from other MMOs that dared to do something new |
| 02:20.19 | Mr_Rabies | well |
| 02:20.27 | Mr_Rabies | in my opinion, that's what makes wow so strong |
| 02:20.43 | Mr_Rabies | unlike most other mmos, it's willing to actually learn lessons from the competition |
| 02:20.58 | Mr_Rabies | so it iterates on the best features of each other one, and spins them into its own thing |
| 02:21.17 | Amarande | however, if MMOs do fail, it's likely more as a result of a vital defect at paradigm level than it is the fault of any particular implmentations |
| 02:21.27 | Mr_Rabies | the other mmo's are basically HEY GUYS LETS MAKE BURNING CRUSADE |
| 02:21.34 | Mr_Rabies | AND NOT LEARN ANYTHING THAT WOW HAS LEARNED SINCE |
| 02:21.44 | Mr_Rabies | OH NO WE'RE FREE TO PLAY AND CLOSING SERVERS |
| 02:21.51 | Mr_Rabies | just months later |
| 02:22.11 | Amarande | well, F2P also has certain paradigmatic advantages, but other disadvantages, alas |
| 02:22.23 | Amarande | one of the troubles with the traditional subscription model is that players pay solely based on amount of time played |
| 02:22.23 | Mr_Rabies | i'm pretty much done with F2P as a thing |
| 02:22.36 | Mr_Rabies | if WoW ever goes F2P it'll probably just trade one audience for another |
| 02:22.40 | Amarande | which means you have to design the game to as far as possible drag people's gameplay out, so that they have a reason to stay subscribed |
| 02:22.53 | Mr_Rabies | most sub players will quit, and the f2p players will start |
| 02:22.57 | Amarande | with F2P, people pay based on what they're actually doing |
| 02:23.07 | Mr_Rabies | i just don't pay |
| 02:23.10 | Mr_Rabies | ever |
| 02:23.14 | Mr_Rabies | for a f2p game |
| 02:23.19 | Mr_Rabies | they're so rarely worth paying for |
| 02:23.22 | Amarande | the downside is that being hardcore in F2P games can be an exercise in extreme pain |
| 02:23.52 | Amarande | sometimes not so much so ... like LOTRO and TOR, you just subscribe, and you basically get the benefits of a subscription MMO plus the ability to buy conveniences |
| 02:24.17 | Amarande | there is VERY little in the LOTRO or TOR cash shops that can be thought of as pay to win, that isn't simply something that provides a la carte access to what is otherwise a subscriber benefit |
| 02:24.47 | Amarande | but pure F2P games, those are another story altogether |
| 02:24.58 | Amarande | like Neverwinter ... well, Neverwinter might be one of the most egregious examples though heh |
| 02:25.10 | Amarande | a top tier enchant, the kind you pay a few thousand gold on the AH for in WoW? |
| 02:25.13 | Amarande | Hello there, $160. |
| 02:25.15 | Amarande | I only wish I was kidding. |
| 02:25.28 | Amarande | There's a reason I will never play Neverwinter in anything but a very casual capacity indeed. :P |
| 02:25.53 | Mr_Rabies | if something's gone free to play i take that as far as it goes, then as my interest wanes i just stop playing |
| 02:25.55 | Mr_Rabies | i don't pay a cent |
| 02:26.36 | Mr_Rabies | i also don't buy DLC in almost every case |
| 02:26.52 | Mr_Rabies | both trends are a blight on game design and have no place |
| 02:27.26 | Amarande | ugh, DLC |
| 02:27.46 | Amarande | did you hear that EA is apparently mandating that every single title from here on out shall have microtransactions? |
| 02:28.36 | Mr_Rabies | there's a reason i haven't bought an EA game since rock band 2 |
| 02:28.43 | Mr_Rabies | now i did buy a shitload of rock band DLC |
| 02:29.11 | Mr_Rabies | because i felt it was worth it, it was 100% gameplay at a reasonable price, and unfortunately had to deal with the music industry when it came to pricing |
| 02:29.39 | Amarande | heh, one wonders how long at that rate before AAA gaming is back to the arcade like days |
| 02:29.55 | Amarande | back-breakingly hard games that demand 25 cents from you on a regular basis to keep going |
| 02:29.58 | Mr_Rabies | honestly the bubble's gonna burst soon |
| 02:30.18 | Mr_Rabies | they're riding in on a bubble of new gamers that are just gonna stop playing them eventually |
| 02:30.38 | Amarande | of course there'll probably be the argument that a buy-once game model is not sustainable from a business standpoint, not with how GPU tech is nowadays |
| 02:30.42 | Mr_Rabies | and then the core will be like "we're not buying anything for more than about $20, you guys made shit for like a decade" |
| 02:31.04 | Amarande | sadly, that might be true, especially looking at WoW vs. Call of Duty, say |
| 02:31.10 | Amarande | WoW: 80% of revenues are profit |
| 02:31.28 | Amarande | CoD: not sure what the numbers breakdown is, but there's a lot of indication it's struggling to keep a steady margin |
| 02:31.29 | Mr_Rabies | i don't buy games for more than about $30 nowadays, unless it's amazing |
| 02:31.33 | Mr_Rabies | like dark souls II |
| 02:31.47 | Amarande | and gets ever increasingly pushy about DLC for that reason |
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| 02:32.02 | Amarande | because if they tried to actually raise the game price with costs, gamers would balk (DUDE A GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE $60) |
| 02:32.04 | Mr_Rabies | (though it has dlc i haven't played yet and despite hearing it's good, i don't have much interest in the concept) |
| 02:32.18 | Mr_Rabies | eh |
| 02:32.20 | Amarande | except, gamers are starting to balk at all the DLC they're expected to buy, sooo ... :S |
| 02:32.34 | Mr_Rabies | so much cost goes into marketing that is unnecessary |
| 02:32.56 | Amarande | like I've said before, I always wonder lately if Activision is covering the shortfalls for CoD by siphoning money off of WoW |
| 02:33.00 | Mr_Rabies | like, no one needs a billboard for the next assassin's creed game to be 20 stories tall on the side of a building |
| 02:33.03 | Mr_Rabies | if they're doing that |
| 02:33.05 | Mr_Rabies | margins are fine |
| 02:33.05 | Amarande | since WoW has that reliable, ongoing revenue stream that a game like COD doesn't |
| 02:33.40 | Amarande | also WoW *content* probably costs less to develop, most costs there are server maintenance I'd think |
| 02:33.56 | Amarande | after all CoD needs near realistic graphical work, while WoW's comic book style is a lot easier |
| 02:33.57 | Mr_Rabies | eh |
| 02:34.08 | Mr_Rabies | once you've made a good enough m4 model |
| 02:34.16 | Mr_Rabies | put it in about 100 games and you'll get your money's worth |
| 02:34.19 | Mr_Rabies | can't really do that in wow |
| 02:35.24 | Amarande | and yeah, F2P might already be sinking |
| 02:35.37 | Amarande | King must be desperate, looking at this Candy Crush Soda Saga thing |
| 02:35.57 | Amarande | used to be they'd just add new pieces to Candy Crush Saga and add them in with the new levels at the tail end of the existing game |
| 02:36.15 | Amarande | this time they're starting a brand new game that's basically, well, Candy Crush Saga with new pieces |
| 02:36.17 | Mr_Rabies | it is, mobile gaming is gonna sink and drag all the casual gamers back out, unfortunately |
| 02:36.27 | Mr_Rabies | then the semicasual games that are everywhere nowadays will also sink |
| 02:36.29 | Mr_Rabies | and we'll have like |
| 02:36.51 | Mr_Rabies | platinum and fromsoftware left |
| 02:37.27 | Amarande | and even some of the best mobile games have jumped the shark it seems |
| 02:37.27 | Amarande | like Words With Friends |
| 02:37.48 | Amarande | I love that game, it's one of the best done of mobile games I think ... only thing I found that I really felt the need to pay for was ad removal |
| 02:37.53 | Mr_Rabies | i'm 100% okay with a market crash, because good games will still be good games |
| 02:38.10 | Amarande | in fact, the new edition of it has REMOVED all the pay-for powerups, except for ad removal (which costs more now I think but if you had it before you're grandfathered) |
| 02:38.12 | Mr_Rabies | it'll just keep the bad games from getting a free ride |
| 02:38.35 | Amarande | here's where it falls apart, though |
| 02:38.46 | Amarande | they're pushing and pushing people to update ... yet ... the Android version of the new edition? |
| 02:38.48 | Amarande | IT ONLY WORKS ON PHONES |
| 02:39.08 | Amarande | want it on your tablet? sorry, fuck you. Your device is not compatible with this version. |
| 02:39.13 | Mr_Rabies | turns out i'm better at scrabble still than almost all my friends, so |
| 02:39.19 | Mr_Rabies | i don't play it anymore |
| 02:39.27 | Amarande | yeah, I barely get to play Words much anymore |
| 02:39.38 | Amarande | being +200 -55 =1 probably has something to do with that |
| 02:39.58 | Mr_Rabies | i have a pretty good knowledge of words AND letter point values |
| 02:40.11 | Mr_Rabies | plus words with friends doesn't have the best scrabble rule |
| 02:40.24 | Mr_Rabies | if you're good enough at bullshitting that it's a real word you can use fake words :D |
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| 02:41.03 | Amarande | to put things in perspective, my Words With Friends lifetime record is better than Emanuel Lasker's lifetime record at chess |
| 02:41.20 | Amarande | (not quite as good as Morphy's chess record though) |
| 02:41.54 | Amarande | yeah, sometimes I play a valid word and it's "not an acceptable word" |
| 02:42.14 | Amarande | on the other hand, Words With Friends lets you try as many times as you want to play words if they're not valid |
| 02:42.22 | Amarande | while in Scrabble you lose your turn altogether the first time |
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| 02:43.08 | Amarande | but yeah, I get the feeling it's going to die out soon, because they cut off so many devices from it |
| 02:43.24 | Amarande | tablets just get "device isn't compatible with this version" |
| 02:43.35 | Amarande | not sure if 3G tablets work with it maybe |
| 02:43.54 | Amarande | though that was really always a problem with Android |
| 02:44.56 | Amarande | want to do all your banking from your tablet so you can save your phone's battery by only keeping bare essentials apps on it? SORRY! |
| 02:45.38 | Amarande | want your airline booking app on your tablet? SORRY! |
| 02:48.00 | Amarande | I still won't use iOS though, I'd have to rebuy apps and I do not like the walled garden model |
| 03:42.24 | Stormkitty | "the servers must have been jay wilson's job because only somebody that incompetent and stupid can fuck up this bad" |
| 04:06.25 | Eraclito | https://twitter.com/Rygarius/status/533468443065212928 "no shit, sherlock" |
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| 07:20.39 | *** topic/#wowhead is Welcome to the official Wowhead channel - IRC rules/stats at http://www.wowhead.com/irc |
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| 10:44.21 | harl | updates? i love updates! |
| 10:45.40 | harl | (there was no sarcasm involved in my previous statement) |
| 11:03.04 | tenterflex | bam! |
| 11:03.10 | tenterflex | managed to hit 100 minutes before shutdown |
| 11:03.24 | tenterflex | and loved every minute of it so far, bar the lag/queue issues |
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| 14:59.48 | ALTF4 | Hey guys. How to get from the garrison to Orgrimmar? I'm stuck in Draenor |
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| 15:12.11 | JunkHead | stormrage is up guys by the way. i assume other NA servers are up too |
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| 15:47.27 | g0urra | somehow I have become a wowhead patreon |
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| 16:21.57 | raspy | hmmm |
| 16:23.31 | raspy | 29 in que and 3 mins left |
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| 16:24.08 | ncsu | not sure which small garrison buildings to get |
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| 17:15.35 | Fawnest | Hmmm the queue is much shorter today! I'm only behind 500 people |
| 17:24.38 | kullervo | well good on you |
| 17:24.55 | kullervo | I started about 1.2k higher than yesterday |
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| 18:00.21 | Kane_Hart | think its bullshit |
| 18:00.27 | Kane_Hart | I ran alt |
| 18:00.29 | Kane_Hart | 5k+ in queue |
| 18:00.33 | Kane_Hart | no way they reduced it |
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| 18:06.46 | JunkHead | i saw on twitter that server capacity is back to normal. |
| 18:06.50 | JunkHead | so its no longer reduced |
| 18:06.54 | kullervo | bhahaha |
| 18:07.18 | kullervo | http://kullervo.dy.fi/pub/drop/pic/2014-11-15_20-07-16.jpg |
| 18:07.22 | kullervo | 2 hours in queue |
| 18:07.29 | JunkHead | jeez |
| 18:11.13 | Lugburz | yeahhhhh |
| 18:11.20 | Lugburz | WoW q times are out of control |
| 18:11.21 | ncsu | so i got in queue for SR yestuerday at like 7pm @ 3550 |
| 18:11.27 | ncsu | and got logged in about 3am lol |
| 18:11.40 | ncsu | now i jumped back in right at server restart |
| 18:11.48 | ncsu | and it seems to be running fine |
| 18:12.27 | ncsu | hint: instead of logging out go into stockades and aggro like 1 mob. there is no way it can kill you if you are high level and you wont get logged out if you are in combat |
| 18:12.43 | ncsu | did that when i went to breakfast for a few hours and came back still logged in |
| 18:15.48 | rlmccormick | nice idea |
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| 19:45.53 | tenterflex | got a level 99 follower from my smuggler's den vendor in spires of arak, nice |
| 19:48.58 | ncsu | anyone had problem turning in quest in gorgrond to rangari jonaa....only quest i have atm and cant proceed because the NPC isnt there to turn it in to |
| 19:55.12 | JunkHead | where is that npc located? |
| 19:55.28 | JunkHead | im almost done with gorgrond. havent had any issues yet |
| 19:55.38 | JunkHead | but i saw someone els ein chat say they couldnt find any more quests |
| 19:56.40 | ncsu | its where the outpost is |
| 19:56.44 | ncsu | i selected the arena |
| 19:56.55 | ncsu | anyway im out for a few hours |
| 19:57.03 | ncsu | hope my afk in the stockades works |
| 19:57.35 | tenterflex | ncsu: I've 100% Gorgrond with no issues so far, that was Ally side |
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| 23:41.05 | synth | hello |
| 23:49.19 | tenterflex | yo |
| 23:49.23 | raspy | weeee |
| 23:49.29 | tenterflex | 'sup raspy |
| 23:59.14 | raspy | nadda much just killing shit and trying to lvl |
