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| 00:27.29 | [-jon-] | prospecting in bgs makes people rage |
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| 00:37.33 | [-jon-] | are there any addons that add up what you have for sale and what money is pending? |
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| 02:44.56 | Domh | ~weather CYYT |
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| 02:52.31 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1301.JPG.html |
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| 02:55.26 | BlackNet | i finally broke out my light tent |
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| 03:00.18 | Stormkitty | It's funny seeing how worked up we Canadians can get about hockey. Gretzky's infamous trade in 1988: "upset Canadians to the extent that New Democratic Party House Leader Nelson Riis demanded that the government block it" |
| 03:06.28 | Raws | I heard you guys are postponing a debate so people can watch the Bruins game the night before |
| 03:06.34 | Raws | It's turned into news here in Boston |
| 03:07.22 | Raws | Oh, the Habs |
| 03:07.31 | Raws | Hilarious |
| 03:09.56 | Stormkitty | Yup |
| 03:10.08 | Stormkitty | Not post-poning |
| 03:10.10 | Stormkitty | pre-poning |
| 03:10.13 | Stormkitty | It's airing a day earlier |
| 03:10.28 | Stormkitty | Also it's the French debates so how much you wanna bet nobody would watch it |
| 03:10.32 | Stormkitty | if it was same time as the Habs |
| 03:13.09 | Stormkitty | Also Raws http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8IGDIujijQ |
| 03:14.02 | Raws | I saw that the other day |
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| 03:14.10 | Stormkitty | Don't be a beech! |
| 03:14.11 | Raws | That guy is like a skinny Duke Nukem |
| 03:14.11 | Stormkitty | Come on |
| 03:14.31 | Stormkitty | Raws it gets better. In one of the videos you find out |
| 03:14.32 | Stormkitty | his name |
| 03:14.33 | Stormkitty | is Dimitri |
| 03:17.40 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1298.JPG.html how is this one |
| 03:18.43 | Raws | Angelic |
| 03:19.19 | BlackNet | toss up with the first one |
| 03:19.48 | Raws | I like the honesty of the first one |
| 03:20.26 | BlackNet | lighting is a bit off on the first one |
| 03:20.54 | Raws | I'd like to get a black backdrop and photograph some colorful side-lit flowers against it |
| 03:21.07 | BlackNet | i did that the other night |
| 03:21.12 | Raws | Maybe even rear-lit |
| 03:21.32 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1187.JPG.html |
| 03:21.39 | BlackNet | and http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1195.JPG.html |
| 03:21.52 | Raws | Sweet |
| 03:22.02 | Raws | That second one looks like some kind of sea anemone |
| 03:22.09 | BlackNet | lol |
| 03:22.18 | BlackNet | it's a vine that's not fully open |
| 03:22.19 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1284.JPG.html |
| 03:22.23 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1285.JPG.html |
| 03:22.26 | BlackNet | this is fully open |
| 03:22.41 | Raws | Oh, those things rule, I've seen them before |
| 03:22.59 | BlackNet | clematis crystal rain. |
| 03:23.15 | BlackNet | it's a 6-8 foot vine that resembles morning glory |
| 03:23.17 | Raws | Nice color on the lattice and everything in the second |
| 03:23.30 | BlackNet | has a good 5 inch spread |
| 03:23.42 | Raws | Pretty impressive |
| 03:24.07 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1297.JPG.html here is my starlight oriental lilly's in bloom |
| 03:24.46 | Raws | Wow |
| 03:25.05 | BlackNet | and street view of my house. http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1108.JPG.html |
| 03:25.14 | BlackNet | im on the right, the pink dogwood is my driveway |
| 03:25.56 | Raws | Huh, cool tree variety around the neighborhood |
| 03:26.19 | Raws | What's that tall narrow pink one in the center background? |
| 03:27.53 | Gary13579 | didn't he literally just say it was a pink dogwood |
| 03:28.09 | Raws | Dogwoods aren't tall and narrow :P |
| 03:28.11 | Gary13579 | or am I missing the tree you are speaking of |
| 03:28.38 | Raws | It's way in the background, and is tall like a pine tree |
| 03:28.39 | Gary13579 | pink dogwood is certainly rather small :| |
| 03:28.39 | BlackNet | the white ones is white dogwood |
| 03:28.43 | Gary13579 | covers a lot of surface area maybe |
| 03:29.30 | Gary13579 | Oh okay I see it, I don't think it's actually pink though |
| 03:29.35 | Raws | I have a white dogwood and pink cherry tree, and my neighbor has a sweet red japanese maple |
| 03:29.42 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1052.JPG.html |
| 03:29.48 | BlackNet | that's the blooms close up |
| 03:30.07 | Raws | wtheck color is it, Gary |
| 03:30.19 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1102.JPG.html and that's the view from my living room |
| 03:30.25 | BlackNet | looking to the right |
| 03:30.26 | Raws | I've never seen a tall, narrow blooming tree that high |
| 03:30.40 | Raws | In the US, at least |
| 03:31.03 | Gary13579 | Raws, mmm I can't think of the proper english phrase for it, but a combination of angle, lighting, and camera making it appear a color it isn't if you were to stand right next to it in full daylight |
| 03:31.43 | Raws | That's one hell of an optical effect if it's supposed to be green |
| 03:32.01 | Raws | Anyway, I'm outta here |
| 03:32.08 | Raws | Goonnight, internet |
| 03:32.13 | Gary13579 | I do know of a few purple-ish evergreens |
| 03:32.13 | BlackNet | the tall one in the middle is white dogwood |
| 03:32.16 | Gary13579 | it is an evergreen, yes? |
| 03:33.04 | BlackNet | which? |
| 03:33.08 | BlackNet | dogwood? |
| 03:33.21 | Gary13579 | Look at the white dogwoods, in the center, then look up |
| 03:33.26 | Gary13579 | Tall narrow scrawny mother fucker |
| 03:33.35 | Gary13579 | with appearingly purple leaves |
| 03:34.13 | BlackNet | by the black car? |
| 03:34.26 | Gary13579 | it looks like some kind of dying trimmed evergreen,t o me |
| 03:34.33 | Gary13579 | what? no, above the white dogwood. |
| 03:34.57 | BlackNet | there is some border stuff, that might be it |
| 03:35.49 | BlackNet | that neighbor, one with the black car is disabled and cant do much at all |
| 03:39.18 | BlackNet | looking to see if i have anymore shots from that day |
| 03:41.12 | BlackNet | nope |
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| 04:53.09 | Stormkitty | Subway challenge: Go to subway and order a sub without saying "uh" or "um" |
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| 05:42.45 | kullervo | Stormkitty: want to remind me about the amount of hit needed to interrupt raidbosses? |
| 05:44.59 | Stormkitty | wat |
| 05:45.21 | fewyn | over 9000 |
| 05:45.26 | Stormkitty | ^ |
| 05:45.33 | kullervo | no really |
| 05:45.40 | kullervo | was it 5% aka... n rating |
| 05:45.42 | kullervo | or more |
| 05:45.48 | fewyn | 17% |
| 05:45.53 | kullervo | melee |
| 05:45.58 | fewyn | 26% |
| 05:46.03 | kullervo | jesus |
| 05:46.10 | fewyn | i have no idea |
| 05:46.21 | kullervo | yeah so I asked someone who probably has |
| 05:46.38 | Stormkitty | 8% for specials |
| 05:46.49 | fewyn | i was close! |
| 05:46.50 | Stormkitty | 27% for white attacks while dual-wielding |
| 05:47.03 | Stormkitty | I might be wrong, check wowpedia |
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| 07:12.41 | Evious | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_1PfqGVSg0 |
| 07:12.44 | Evious | I want that shirt |
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| 07:27.15 | Evious | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-3YuU8lBUM |
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| 07:55.54 | g0urra | http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear |
| 08:00.57 | Stormkitty | http://fukung.net/v/27490/1b38def8b2f1ab9a9ff4f1fed2cfe03c.jpg Nature. It doesn't care. |
| 08:03.44 | Icystorm | The tree was hungry... Probably. |
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| 08:28.01 | g0urra | http://www.gmbase.com/bbs/Topic.aspx?BoardID=46&TopicID=1878 |
| 08:28.02 | g0urra | check out the other illustrations, the man is a genius |
| 08:30.29 | stuf | http://fukung.net/v/8473/647c669a7bf1ce6aee1c80d4e6dba336.jpg bhahaha |
| 08:34.48 | Stormkitty | http://fukung.net/v/27587/slide_5921_79826_large.jpg |
| 08:39.29 | g0urra | so old |
| 08:45.45 | Icystorm | Hey, guys, new Reign of Chaos screenshots! http://goo.gl/oA5iM |
| 08:46.23 | Icystorm | (for the curious, yes, it's battle.net's 2002 website) |
| 08:47.51 | hylje | slowpoke |
| 08:55.47 | g0urra | http://replay.waybackmachine.org/19961223104720/http://battle.net/ |
| 08:55.47 | g0urra | win |
| 09:01.34 | Stormkitty | http://i.imgur.com/CRxoC.png |
| 09:05.03 | g0urra | http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/04/meet-the-senator-blocking-big-contents-web-censorship-plan.ars |
| 09:05.10 | g0urra | Ron Wyden's possibly the best senator the U.S. has. |
| 09:10.56 | *** join/#wowhead jnwhiteh_ (~jnwhiteh@li37-84.members.linode.com) |
| 09:22.42 | BlackNet | but he thinks you should be able to sue gun manufactures for someone doing crimes like robing gas stations. |
| 09:23.39 | Stormkitty | I'd say sue American society |
| 09:23.46 | g0urra | I'd sue Stormkitty |
| 09:23.49 | Stormkitty | for making sure everybody and their dog has a gun |
| 09:23.53 | g0urra | ^ |
| 09:24.09 | BlackNet | that's like being able to sue ford motor company because someone ran over someone and killed them with a car |
| 09:24.19 | Stormkitty | I'd say sue the guy who died |
| 09:24.22 | Stormkitty | he didn't get out of the way |
| 09:24.26 | Stormkitty | and wrecked the car |
| 09:24.27 | Stormkitty | jeez |
| 09:24.28 | Stormkitty | selfish git |
| 09:24.40 | hylje | you better be ironic |
| 09:24.49 | g0urra | BlackNet: I'd like to see the guy that uses a gun to drive |
| 09:24.54 | Stormkitty | I'd make a good ambulance chasing personal injury lawyer |
| 09:25.07 | BlackNet | g0urra you missed the point. re-read what i said |
| 09:25.10 | g0urra | let's see.. what is guns good for.. that's right, shooting and hurting people |
| 09:25.21 | g0urra | there is nothing good with guns. |
| 09:25.28 | Stormkitty | ^ |
| 09:25.28 | g0urra | trying to compare it to cars it absurd |
| 09:25.44 | hylje | guns are good when used to kill bad people |
| 09:25.45 | Stormkitty | I find the idea that Americans actually have the RIGHT to use a gun |
| 09:25.47 | Stormkitty | to be absurd |
| 09:25.59 | BlackNet | g0urra that's why cars kill and injure more people per year :) |
| 09:26.06 | Stormkitty | Actually... |
| 09:26.13 | g0urra | hylje: of course, but that doesn't mean that everyone should have a gun to kill people |
| 09:26.37 | hylje | you never know when you encounter a bad person |
| 09:26.52 | BlackNet | first off neither of you know the issue that well |
| 09:27.09 | g0urra | americans has always been crazy for guns |
| 09:27.11 | g0urra | for CENTURIES |
| 09:27.23 | Stormkitty | ^ |
| 09:27.29 | g0urra | so I guess it's pretty pointless to point out the risks for guns |
| 09:27.36 | Stormkitty | They just don't get it. |
| 09:27.40 | g0urra | since, you know, you're so damn convinced that guns are GOOD |
| 09:27.47 | BlackNet | vehicles has more risk btw |
| 09:28.02 | Stormkitty | That's why you need a license. |
| 09:28.25 | BlackNet | license does not slow the death or injury rate down any |
| 09:28.40 | g0urra | because retards either don't have a license, drives drunk, or does something else that requires attention (like speaking on a mobile phones) |
| 09:28.46 | g0urra | not to mention the ones that drive too fast |
| 09:28.53 | Stormkitty | Don't drive like a tard and amazing |
| 09:28.57 | Stormkitty | You'll have a perfect record |
| 09:29.18 | hylje | cars and roads are engineered to be unsafe for everyone that is not a car |
| 09:29.19 | g0urra | BlackNet: tell me, why did people who drove cars die, or die by the ones that drove cars? |
| 09:29.25 | BlackNet | that senator has serious double standards btw. |
| 09:29.27 | Stormkitty | My uncle's been driving since he was 17 years old. He turned 56 this year. You know how many accidents he's had? |
| 09:29.27 | Stormkitty | 0. |
| 09:29.52 | BlackNet | voted for gun control and all but yet votes to prohibit liability and slander against bloggers. |
| 09:29.56 | g0urra | BlackNet: tell me, why did people who drove cars die, or die by the ones that drove cars? |
| 09:29.57 | BlackNet | major double standards there |
| 09:30.01 | g0urra | BlackNet: tell me, why did people who drove cars die, or die by the ones that drove cars? |
| 09:30.09 | g0urra | way to turn around the conversation |
| 09:30.19 | Stormkitty | This conversation is getting fascinating. |
| 09:30.38 | g0urra | sorry, the discussion |
| 09:30.51 | BlackNet | g0urra mind rephrasing that question? |
| 09:31.40 | g0urra | you say people die and get injured by cars every year. mind tell me WHY they get killed and injured? |
| 09:32.05 | BlackNet | very diverse reasons |
| 09:32.09 | Stormkitty | People get killed and injured by guns for one reason: It's a gun. It's designed to kill people. |
| 09:32.21 | Stormkitty | It's for causing lethal harm to another organism. |
| 09:32.38 | g0urra | BlackNet: give me examples |
| 09:32.48 | BlackNet | g0urra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision |
| 09:32.50 | hylje | i would argue most streets are designed to kill people by the virtue of enabling people to drive too fast |
| 09:33.12 | hylje | you can design a street to at most injure people, and it's very reasonable wherever there's any pedestrians |
| 09:33.17 | g0urra | let's see |
| 09:33.17 | Stormkitty | hylje I'd wager it's teenagers who think they're invincible |
| 09:33.35 | g0urra | vehicle design < not the fault of the driver. so suing the car company is reasonable |
| 09:33.46 | BlackNet | Stormkitty truth be known movies and the like has given you a serious biased towards firearms and you have a phobia |
| 09:33.47 | g0urra | speed of operation < completely at the fault of the driver. |
| 09:33.59 | Stormkitty | BlackNet: No I'm realistic. |
| 09:34.01 | g0urra | road design < fault of the ones that don't maintain the roads |
| 09:34.12 | g0urra | driver impairmen < they should know their limits to driving |
| 09:34.15 | Stormkitty | It's a gun. It's for killing people. |
| 09:34.16 | Stormkitty | Period. |
| 09:34.30 | BlackNet | g0urra oh btw. there are laws against suits against car lots, manufactures and the like for deaths and the like. |
| 09:34.45 | BlackNet | if someone runs over you and kills you with a honda you cant sue honda for it |
| 09:34.51 | g0urra | ERROR 505 CAREFACE NOT FOUND |
| 09:34.55 | g0urra | anyway |
| 09:35.01 | Stormkitty | BlackNet we're talking about person dying because car design was horrible |
| 09:35.06 | Stormkitty | and they died because they hit a wall |
| 09:35.15 | Stormkitty | and none of the safety equipment worked |
| 09:35.21 | BlackNet | if someone crashes into a gas station and steals the register with a ford suv you cant sue ford motor company :) |
| 09:35.22 | Stormkitty | etc |
| 09:35.30 | g0urra | injuries and deaths from cars is a "side effect" of driving, where on the other hand deaths and injuries from guns is the PURPOSE of guns |
| 09:35.35 | Stormkitty | Stop trying to shift the conversation |
| 09:36.00 | BlackNet | but this senator wants you to be able to sue glock becuase some crackhead stole a cop's glock and knocked over a gas station |
| 09:36.09 | g0urra | the purpose of cars it TRANSPORTATION. purpose of guns is DEATHS and INJURIES |
| 09:36.18 | g0urra | is* |
| 09:36.27 | BlackNet | g0urra that is not correct |
| 09:36.32 | g0urra | rofl. right |
| 09:36.36 | Stormkitty | Oh really now. |
| 09:36.45 | BlackNet | explain bb guns or pellet guns |
| 09:36.49 | BlackNet | or .17 |
| 09:37.03 | Stormkitty | You ever been shot with a pellet gun? |
| 09:37.10 | Stormkitty | I'd say that's pretty injurious |
| 09:37.16 | BlackNet | actually yes i have |
| 09:38.29 | BlackNet | i didnt' die :) nor was i injured |
| 09:38.36 | g0urra | too bad. |
| 09:41.04 | BlackNet | see classic case in point right there :) |
| 09:41.18 | BlackNet | no need to be afraid of objects, it's the person you need to be concerned with |
| 09:42.16 | Stormkitty | It's not fear, it's being practical. |
| 09:42.18 | BlackNet | just because i take my firearms near a school does not mean it will discharge |
| 09:42.23 | BlackNet | Stormkitty it's a phobia |
| 09:42.29 | Stormkitty | No, it's not. |
| 09:42.46 | BlackNet | psychologists and socialogist will beg to differ |
| 09:42.53 | BlackNet | and denial is not a river in egypt |
| 09:43.10 | Stormkitty | I have no phobia of guns. I'll go to a shooting range and fire off various guns no problem, and I'll handle them no problem. |
| 09:43.15 | g0urra | Stormkitty: trying to argue against the gun crazy americans is useless.. they'll never listen. they haven't for centuries |
| 09:43.21 | Stormkitty | I just think civilians have no business carrying them around in public. |
| 09:43.27 | g0urra | ^ |
| 09:43.54 | BlackNet | Stormkitty what country do you live in again? |
| 09:43.56 | Stormkitty | The reason you have high gun crime is BECAUSE you all have guns |
| 09:44.06 | *** join/#wowhead Anubisss (~anubisss@77.111.167.112) |
| 09:44.20 | Stormkitty | Canada, along with the rest of the civilised people in North America. |
| 09:44.24 | BlackNet | Stormkitty the uk has a very high crime rate and they dont have guns there. how is that possible? |
| 09:44.33 | Stormkitty | Note the fucking word GUN CIRME |
| 09:44.35 | hylje | knifes |
| 09:44.36 | Stormkitty | you dumb shit |
| 09:44.50 | Stormkitty | I'll spell it out again because you're a sub-moronic American |
| 09:44.51 | Stormkitty | GUN. CRIME. |
| 09:45.01 | g0urra | inb4 BlackNet turns the argument to knife crimes |
| 09:45.07 | Stormkitty | ^5 g0urra |
| 09:45.13 | g0urra | ^5 Stormkitty |
| 09:46.25 | Stormkitty | What about the crime that is American music |
| 09:46.28 | Stormkitty | :3 |
| 09:46.45 | BlackNet | canada and us is almost equal. |
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| 09:46.55 | Stormkitty | Except we're not gun nuts |
| 09:46.58 | Stormkitty | and we have sane laws |
| 09:47.08 | BlackNet | the last numbers i did look at a while back used data that was 10 years old for canada vs 1 year old from the us |
| 09:47.25 | BlackNet | sane laws? now i know you are on crack |
| 09:47.42 | g0urra | .. the cleaning lady has a ring tone of Stardust - Music Sounds Better With You |
| 09:47.46 | Stormkitty | So if we're equal, where's your national health service? Or lack of a DMCA? or non-Big Brother esque police powers |
| 09:48.29 | BlackNet | do tell me where the sanity is in forced registration |
| 09:48.38 | Stormkitty | How about your military, where rape and sexual harassment is commonplace |
| 09:49.07 | Bundy | Firearm homicide rate |
| 09:49.08 | Bundy | per 100,000 pop |
| 09:49.22 | BlackNet | Bundy better exclude suicides |
| 09:49.31 | Bundy | US: 2.97 - Canada - 0.54 |
| 09:49.31 | g0urra | lol why |
| 09:49.35 | Stormkitty | inb4 g0urra corrects BlackNet |
| 09:49.49 | g0urra | 2l8 |
| 09:49.53 | BlackNet | Bundy and quote years on the figures |
| 09:50.00 | Stormkitty | Hey g0urra I heard a suicide is a homicide now |
| 09:50.07 | g0urra | holy crap |
| 09:50.13 | Bundy | Source: United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 2000[8] |
| 09:50.26 | g0urra | 10 years |
| 09:50.38 | BlackNet | so 2000 for one and 2008 for the other :) |
| 09:50.50 | Bundy | uh, no? |
| 09:50.51 | Stormkitty | "Canadian police services reported just over 8,100 victims of violent gun crime in 2006" |
| 09:51.06 | Stormkitty | That includes people who didn't die. |
| 09:51.11 | Stormkitty | That's probably one DAY for the US. |
| 09:51.28 | Bundy | apperently us and canada figures are 1999 |
| 09:51.35 | Bundy | but both are from the same year |
| 09:52.12 | BlackNet | that would be new. almost all the sources quoted differs greatly on the year |
| 09:52.18 | Stormkitty | I'm grabbing 2006 statistics right now |
| 09:52.20 | Stormkitty | for Canada |
| 09:52.40 | g0urra | http://www.unodc.org/images/data-and-analysis/Homicide-sub-region-two_sources.gif |
| 09:52.58 | g0urra | bleh. stupid statistics blending canada and US |
| 09:52.58 | Stormkitty | Homicide per 100,000 in Canada for 2006: 1.9 |
| 09:53.09 | Stormkitty | Lowest in PEI at 0.7 |
| 09:53.14 | BlackNet | interesting that they show same color for us and canada there g0urra :) |
| 09:53.18 | Stormkitty | Highest in Newfoundland at 1.4 |
| 09:53.24 | Stormkitty | wait what |
| 09:53.32 | Stormkitty | That can't be right |
| 09:53.53 | Stormkitty | oh ok they don't include all the provinces in the chart, but the national average does |
| 09:54.36 | g0urra | canada: 1.7 |
| 09:54.38 | BlackNet | g0urra look at the spread range they give |
| 09:54.41 | Stormkitty | Cases of homicide in Yukon Territory in 2006: 0.0 |
| 09:54.41 | g0urra | US: 5.2 |
| 09:54.50 | g0urra | http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html |
| 09:54.54 | g0urra | Homicide statistics, Trends (2003-2008) |
| 09:54.56 | g0urra | click it |
| 09:55.03 | Stormkitty | What throws off the numbers a lot is Nunavut has high homicide rates for some reason |
| 09:55.07 | BlackNet | comparing 2003 vs 2008 is just fail |
| 09:55.21 | g0urra | problem? |
| 09:55.25 | BlackNet | Stormkitty drugs is the problem there |
| 09:55.48 | Stormkitty | Actually, it's sniffing gas fumes. |
| 09:55.50 | Stormkitty | I shit you not. |
| 09:55.54 | Bundy | BlackNet : do you really think that the overall stats has changed over 5 years? |
| 09:56.00 | Stormkitty | It was a big issue in Labrador in the 90s |
| 09:56.01 | BlackNet | Bundy yes |
| 09:56.05 | Stormkitty | natives would sniff bags of gas fumes |
| 09:56.07 | Stormkitty | to get high |
| 09:56.11 | BlackNet | it changes drastically according to whats going on |
| 09:56.22 | Bundy | do you have anything to back it up? |
| 09:56.30 | BlackNet | Stormkitty that still falls under the drug use realm |
| 09:56.38 | BlackNet | Bundy look at the tends |
| 09:56.40 | Stormkitty | Canada had 594 murders TOTAL in 2006. |
| 09:56.45 | g0urra | United Republic of Tanzania25,8 |
| 09:56.46 | g0urra | o_O |
| 09:56.47 | Stormkitty | American has that many in a day probably. |
| 09:56.59 | Ashley_ | this seems like a lovely conversation |
| 09:57.24 | Stormkitty | In 2001, Canada had about 32,000 people in prison or about 0.13% of the total population. |
| 09:57.29 | Stormkitty | and that hasn't really changed much. |
| 09:57.39 | g0urra | Canada1,62004 |
| 09:57.44 | g0urra | United States of America6,02005 |
| 09:57.47 | Bundy | BlackNet :what trends? |
| 09:57.50 | g0urra | doesn't differ much from other statistics |
| 09:58.11 | Stormkitty | Only trend I see |
| 09:58.16 | Stormkitty | Americans like killing each other |
| 09:58.19 | Stormkitty | Canadians don't |
| 09:58.20 | g0urra | ^ |
| 09:58.24 | g0urra | afk |
| 09:58.34 | BlackNet | Bundy patterns and relations to what is going on at the time. |
| 09:58.46 | BlackNet | Stormkitty that's pure bullshit and you know it |
| 09:58.51 | Stormkitty | Not really. |
| 09:58.54 | Stormkitty | The statistics say it. |
| 09:59.15 | Stormkitty | Homicide rate of 6 per 100,000 in 2005? That's pretty damn high for a supposedly modern nation. |
| 09:59.21 | Bundy | its pretty obvious from the statistics |
| 10:00.23 | BlackNet | Stormkitty now look at the rape stats |
| 10:00.34 | Stormkitty | http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-statistics/Pivot_by_Country.20100201.xls trends for 2003-2008 homicide around the world |
| 10:00.37 | BlackNet | and look at the vehicle death rate |
| 10:01.31 | Stormkitty | Why don't you |
| 10:01.35 | BlackNet | i did |
| 10:01.37 | Stormkitty | Since you're the one telling us to. |
| 10:01.42 | Stormkitty | Then provide us with a link. |
| 10:02.05 | BlackNet | do your work for you? |
| 10:02.09 | Bundy | haha |
| 10:02.12 | Bundy | dude |
| 10:02.12 | Stormkitty | We're doing it for you. |
| 10:02.30 | Stormkitty | No link = you didn't actually look |
| 10:02.35 | Stormkitty | and are making shit up |
| 10:02.37 | Stormkitty | and are now denying it |
| 10:02.44 | Stormkitty | Less strawman pl0x |
| 10:02.46 | BlackNet | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate |
| 10:02.47 | BlackNet | there |
| 10:03.10 | robokitty | :| |
| 10:03.11 | Bundy | rape stats |
| 10:03.14 | Bundy | 2009 Rate / 100,000 |
| 10:03.14 | robokitty | |: |
| 10:03.22 | Bundy | US: 28.6 |
| 10:03.24 | BlackNet | interesting to note MORE deaths in canada by cars than in the us |
| 10:03.30 | Stormkitty | No. |
| 10:03.30 | Bundy | canada: 1.5 |
| 10:03.35 | Stormkitty | US: 15 |
| 10:03.36 | Stormkitty | Canada: 13 |
| 10:03.39 | Stormkitty | Problem, Americans? |
| 10:04.16 | Stormkitty | Per 100k vehicles. Per 100k people: USA 12.3, Canada 9.2 |
| 10:04.21 | Stormkitty | Still less |
| 10:04.22 | Stormkitty | HOW ODD |
| 10:04.23 | BlackNet | ok shows here about equal |
| 10:04.33 | Stormkitty | How about you actually read it |
| 10:04.36 | Stormkitty | Since you obv didn't |
| 10:04.40 | BlackNet | 8.2 and 8.5 |
| 10:04.56 | Stormkitty | that's per billion vehicle km |
| 10:05.04 | BlackNet | the only realistic figure |
| 10:05.04 | Stormkitty | and Canada is lower AGAIN on that one |
| 10:05.16 | BlackNet | not by much |
| 10:05.20 | Stormkitty | Bundy do you see a pattern |
| 10:05.21 | Stormkitty | I do |
| 10:05.52 | Bundy | I see the usual denial |
| 10:05.59 | BlackNet | 15 and 13 for 100k vehicles |
| 10:06.05 | Bundy | and i wonder why i even waste my time arguing about this |
| 10:06.16 | BlackNet | so canadians and americans like to kill people with cars |
| 10:06.23 | robokitty | You're arguing on the internet |
| 10:06.27 | Bundy | yes |
| 10:06.28 | Bundy | im retarded |
| 10:06.29 | Bundy | i know |
| 10:06.30 | robokitty | That's the problem in the first place, right there |
| 10:06.33 | Bundy | :) |
| 10:06.45 | Bundy | especially in this channel |
| 10:06.50 | Bundy | i seem to get into retarded arguments |
| 10:06.53 | BlackNet | robokitty because they are to chicken shit to do it in person |
| 10:07.05 | Stormkitty | Not really. |
| 10:07.06 | Bundy | hah |
| 10:07.10 | Stormkitty | I'd just punch you in the face |
| 10:07.11 | Stormkitty | and walk away |
| 10:07.13 | robokitty | ^^ |
| 10:07.14 | Stormkitty | about 20 minutes ago |
| 10:07.20 | Bundy | and then he'd shoot you |
| 10:07.23 | Bundy | and rape you |
| 10:07.24 | Stormkitty | Since you have no desire to listen to reason |
| 10:07.31 | Stormkitty | Bundy: then run me over with his car |
| 10:07.32 | robokitty | and then you'd be the stereotypical USmerican |
| 10:07.52 | BlackNet | Stormkitty then provide some reason and not some phobia |
| 10:08.06 | Stormkitty | You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. |
| 10:08.24 | Bundy | What is it you want a reason for? |
| 10:08.35 | Stormkitty | That's what I'm curious about actually. |
| 10:08.40 | Stormkitty | Since I already provided one some time ago. |
| 10:09.06 | Stormkitty | [02:43:17] <Stormkitty> I just think civilians have no business carrying them [guns] around in public |
| 10:09.12 | BlackNet | http://common-phobias.com/Hoplo/phobia.htm |
| 10:09.25 | Stormkitty | Bundy: I say we let him keep talking |
| 10:09.26 | BlackNet | and that is an opinion |
| 10:09.28 | Stormkitty | See where this ends up |
| 10:09.32 | Stormkitty | It can be fun |
| 10:09.34 | robokitty | in before "the need for a strong and well-armed militia" |
| 10:09.38 | BlackNet | one that has been given no reason at all for i might add :) |
| 10:09.41 | Stormkitty | inb4 american gun fanatics |
| 10:09.50 | Stormkitty | oh w8 |
| 10:09.50 | robokitty | because there's always the odds of the UK coming over to reclaim their country |
| 10:09.52 | Stormkitty | 2l8 |
| 10:10.07 | Stormkitty | robokitty I think they should. They've proven they can't govern themselves |
| 10:10.23 | robokitty | who, the UK? |
| 10:10.27 | Bundy | BlackNet : saying that everyone having a gun is not a good thing, is not the same a fear of firearms |
| 10:10.28 | Bundy | i love guns |
| 10:10.29 | Stormkitty | Both |
| 10:10.32 | Stormkitty | UK and US |
| 10:10.36 | Bundy | but im pretty happy with the gun laws where i live |
| 10:10.48 | BlackNet | Bundy which is where? |
| 10:10.51 | Bundy | Denmark |
| 10:11.48 | BlackNet | only experience i have with denmarks laws is on hunting. they use this weird energy standards for what rounds you can use. |
| 10:11.52 | Stormkitty | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Causes_of_death_by_age_group_%28percent%29.png I'm just gonna leave this here. |
| 10:13.34 | BlackNet | so what that shows is kids 15-24. which would be the street gangs :) |
| 10:13.57 | BlackNet | interesting to note about teh same graph for the uk but it's knives :) |
| 10:14.05 | BlackNet | you ban one object they find another object. |
| 10:14.14 | Bundy | mhm |
| 10:14.16 | Stormkitty | At least I can defend myself against a knife. |
| 10:14.20 | Stormkitty | Against a gun, what do I do? |
| 10:14.21 | Bundy | and what would you rather face? |
| 10:14.31 | Bundy | a guy with a gun, or a guy with a knife? |
| 10:14.32 | BlackNet | just like a suicidal person they get what they can find to do the job. if they cant get a firearm then they get pills, a knife or a car |
| 10:14.44 | Bundy | and what has the greatest chance of collateral damage? |
| 10:14.47 | robokitty | someone armed with a daffodil |
| 10:14.54 | BlackNet | Bundy a guy with a gun any day of the week. |
| 10:14.58 | Stormkitty | I am not afraid of a guy with a knife. I will fuck his day up. |
| 10:15.10 | BlackNet | it's not the object that makes the person 'armed' |
| 10:15.12 | Bundy | BlackNet : and your reasoning behind that? |
| 10:15.22 | BlackNet | it's the skill the weilder has that makes them 'armed' |
| 10:15.26 | BlackNet | lets make no mistake about that |
| 10:15.34 | Stormkitty | He can shoot you before you get close enough to touch him |
| 10:15.35 | Stormkitty | then what |
| 10:15.36 | Stormkitty | you lay there |
| 10:15.39 | Stormkitty | bleeding to death |
| 10:15.41 | Stormkitty | like a jackass |
| 10:15.43 | robokitty | but it sure as hell makes a difference if said person is armed with a 12" shotgun or a bleeding daffodil |
| 10:15.48 | Bundy | its much easier killing a person with a gun than with a knife |
| 10:15.58 | BlackNet | Stormkitty you watch way to many movies. you need to get out more and learn how things work in the real world |
| 10:16.04 | Stormkitty | I think YOU do. |
| 10:16.25 | BlackNet | Stormkitty so tell me the average shooting distance :) |
| 10:16.38 | Bundy | that its probaby point blank |
| 10:16.49 | Stormkitty | Average distance is less than 4 metres |
| 10:16.59 | Bundy | still easier to fend of a knife than a bullet |
| 10:17.44 | BlackNet | you clearly have never seen a competent blade user |
| 10:18.06 | Bundy | no, but we're not talking a fucking samurai here |
| 10:18.15 | Bundy | we're talking a average dude with either a gun or a knife |
| 10:18.28 | Stormkitty | average dude with a knife will use poor technique and poor grip |
| 10:18.40 | BlackNet | so we are talking thugs who have little to no skill in using the object |
| 10:18.48 | Bundy | yes |
| 10:18.51 | Stormkitty | aka average person |
| 10:19.04 | BlackNet | then it does not matter what they are using in that case as it's all poor skill |
| 10:19.13 | Stormkitty | easier to kill someone with a gun |
| 10:19.16 | Stormkitty | even with no skill |
| 10:19.17 | Bundy | ooh |
| 10:19.28 | Bundy | why is that every american ive ever met has been super nice |
| 10:19.36 | Bundy | but on the internet |
| 10:19.39 | Bundy | they are mostly tards? |
| 10:19.40 | Bundy | i dont get it. |
| 10:19.54 | Stormkitty | afraid of getting a real-time punch to the face |
| 10:21.54 | Bundy | oh there was this one cabdriver in SF though |
| 10:21.55 | Bundy | haha |
| 10:21.59 | Bundy | that was an awesome cabride |
| 10:22.14 | Bundy | brb, gotta get something to eat |
| 10:22.23 | Stormkitty | dude I had an argument with a taxi driver over the nature of the universe once |
| 10:22.29 | Stormkitty | Talk to taxi drivers. They're awesome. |
| 10:22.54 | Stormkitty | "Olympics are finished but Broadway construction is never finished." |
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| 11:18.08 | g0urra | woah.. Faithless split up on friday :< |
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| 12:15.33 | Icystorm | Oh! |
| 12:17.05 | Owkkuri | g0urra: they had a rather poor concert here a month or two ago |
| 12:17.31 | g0urra | ok |
| 12:17.47 | g0urra | rocks out to Stardust - Music Sounds Better with You |
| 12:20.07 | g0urra | one of the best dance tunes of the late 90's |
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| 12:36.47 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1306.JPG.html |
| 12:39.07 | Owkkuri | http://macromeme.com/dog/plot-twist-6.html |
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| 13:01.07 | robokitty | g0urra, makes sense, given that it was designed to be the ultimate one-hit wonder :P |
| 13:02.06 | g0urra | :V |
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| 15:16.09 | Icystorm | How many images does macromeme have? |
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| 15:26.39 | robokitty | steals Djanes kittens and runs off |
| 15:27.53 | Djane | shakes fist at robo |
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| 15:28.59 | [-jon-] | are there any better uses of carnelian than to just vendor them? |
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| 15:35.54 | kadrahil | eat them |
| 15:40.19 | [-jon-] | im not hungry |
| 15:40.54 | Demetrious | [-jon-]: I am assuming that is a gem, right? |
| 15:51.58 | Starkie | I'm at 65/75 quests for the Nagrand achievement and I can't find any quests, any suggestions? |
| 15:53.50 | robokitty | Wowhead profiler or Everyquest |
| 15:54.23 | kadrahil | or Quest Completist |
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| 15:58.10 | Lopin | mhm, some ideas where to go on level 35 (Alliance :))? :) |
| 16:00.21 | robokitty | Go to Stormwind, look at board |
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| 16:02.00 | Lopin | okay |
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| 16:17.20 | Pi_Medi | any hunters |
| 16:17.42 | Raws | Presumably millions |
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| 16:30.13 | JunkHead-Work | ha |
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| 18:08.37 | Djane | One of my melee dps guildees just whispered one of the tank guildees |
| 18:08.42 | Djane | "Why didn't you use a shield that go?" |
| 18:08.58 | Djane | The tank was using a shield, of course, but the paranoia and doubt is hilarious. |
| 18:13.57 | wink | more like idiocy |
| 18:14.06 | wink | i wouldnt believe anyone :P |
| 18:14.19 | *** join/#wowhead Izzmo (~IceChat77@adsl-75-39-138-193.dsl.tpkaks.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:14.32 | Izzmo | Anyone have any ideas on when the content patch will be out? |
| 18:18.29 | g0urra | maybe before the end of the month |
| 18:18.32 | g0urra | but not soon |
| 18:21.01 | Izzmo | Really? I can't believe it is taking this long... |
| 18:21.27 | Ac-town | and? |
| 18:21.30 | Djane | Welcome to software patch dates., |
| 18:21.35 | Ac-town | they've added a lot of stuff |
| 18:21.43 | Ac-town | and new code = new bugs |
| 18:22.09 | Izzmo | What do you mean by added a lot? |
| 18:22.18 | Izzmo | The major content updates are ZG and ZA right? |
| 18:22.26 | Izzmo | I thought everything else was bug fixes and class updates |
| 18:22.47 | Djane | It's dead easy to balance classes. |
| 18:22.48 | Djane | Right? |
| 18:23.18 | Izzmo | Well, the way Blizzard has set them up, that will be an infinite amount of time to balance |
| 18:24.08 | Djane | And, it's pretty easy to set up a whole new guild recruitment interface, yeah? |
| 18:24.22 | Izzmo | of course! |
| 18:24.23 | Djane | Oh and guild challenges, they only require a few lines of code. |
| 18:24.36 | Izzmo | Relatively speaking :P |
| 18:25.04 | Djane | Oh, and of course moving all BoA's to actually be mailed to different Wow accounts on the same battlenet, including faction, too. |
| 18:25.23 | Izzmo | Eh, now that one I have to disagree on |
| 18:25.29 | Izzmo | I don't think that's a big of feat as you might think |
| 18:26.29 | Djane | Yeah, it's only taken them an expansion to implement it. |
| 18:26.30 | JunkHead-Work | i got big feat! |
| 18:26.52 | Djane | Clearly a dead simple change. Otherwise it would of taken longer, right? |
| 18:27.23 | Izzmo | Djane.. where is your credibility on this subject? |
| 18:27.43 | Izzmo | I've been developing software for over 10 years, I know how design and implementation of code rolls out |
| 18:27.49 | Djane | That's nice. |
| 18:27.55 | Djane | My credibility is I actually read patch notes. |
| 18:27.57 | Izzmo | I'll tell you how it probably went down |
| 18:28.06 | Izzmo | Patch notes mean nothing.. |
| 18:28.11 | Djane | No, you'll tell me how you believe it went down, in some kind of bullshit pseudo conspiratorial rubbish. |
| 18:28.17 | Djane | And i'll mock you some more, and go back to Raiding. |
| 18:28.25 | Izzmo | .. really? |
| 18:28.30 | Djane | Yup, Nef calls. |
| 18:28.30 | Izzmo | That's where you want to go? |
| 18:28.33 | Djane | Bbiab. |
| 18:28.42 | Izzmo | You're an idiot. |
| 18:28.44 | Demetrious | I am listening, Izzmo, don't get discocuraged by the mob. |
| 18:28.49 | Djane | Sometimes, mostly around women. |
| 18:28.56 | Djane | Or potent spirits. |
| 18:29.23 | Djane | That doesn't change the fact that the only reason the patch is taking long is because there's a lot to do. |
| 18:29.39 | Djane | If there wasn't a lot to do, they'd release. The delay on releasing is directly proportional to how much they have to work. |
| 18:29.44 | Izzmo | Well, anyways.. software developers, especially at game companies, are very good (usually) at what they do and become highly efficient out turning out code.. so most likely they've had this feature done on their internal builds for some time. |
| 18:30.02 | Demetrious | Izzmo, I tend to agree. |
| 18:30.07 | Izzmo | By the time some higher up finally got around to looking at it, he didn't like it, and either wanted more or wanted to change it all up. |
| 18:30.18 | Izzmo | back to coders to redesign and retest and reimplement |
| 18:30.26 | Demetrious | Feature creep, being there. |
| 18:30.31 | Izzmo | maybe it goes back and forth for a while before they finally reach an agreement |
| 18:30.47 | Izzmo | then they send it out to customers, which then has to bug test for a while, then they release it |
| 18:31.04 | Izzmo | Unfortunately with such a big platform, it can take features a while to actually get to the PTR. |
| 18:31.06 | Demetrious | Yes. Add to that: they do not *need* to push it out. |
| 18:31.10 | Djane | Err, yes they do. |
| 18:31.15 | Djane | Since it's the mmo business model. |
| 18:31.20 | Demetrious | They are receiving income, no matter what. |
| 18:31.24 | Djane | Every day they don't release, they lose profit. |
| 18:31.25 | Izzmo | There is "one" model Djane? |
| 18:31.31 | Demetrious | They do not *need* to push it out. |
| 18:31.33 | Djane | Pretty much. |
| 18:31.37 | Djane | it's "release" or Lose out. |
| 18:31.42 | Izzmo | No, it's not that easy. |
| 18:31.58 | Ac-town | Izzmo: you forgot about the guild finder |
| 18:32.03 | Ac-town | and the new random rewards |
| 18:32.21 | Ac-town | and guild challenges |
| 18:32.25 | Izzmo | Well, I was just saying in general, I have no idea how it actually went down, I'm just speculating |
| 18:33.23 | Izzmo | I have no doubt the next patch will be nice for guilds :) Just mad it took so long |
| 18:33.36 | Izzmo | Not mad.. just anxious. |
| 18:33.56 | hylje | u mad |
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| 18:35.17 | Izzmo | I'm so mad I'm going to roll down to Blizzard HQ and blow them up just to make a point. |
| 18:35.55 | Demetrious | Not smart thing to say, thought, albeit as joke. |
| 18:36.12 | Izzmo | yeah, very true lol |
| 18:36.28 | Izzmo | sarcasm doesn't come across very well in text. |
| 18:36.40 | Demetrious | Aye. |
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| 18:42.11 | dekae | i called homeland security...they laughed at the thought of a limey terrorist and hung up |
| 18:42.26 | dekae | shrugs |
| 18:42.43 | Izzmo | lulz |
| 18:45.01 | Demetrious | Remember Canuks collaborate with HLS, *closely*. |
| 18:45.38 | dekae | HLS is just using them |
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| 19:00.00 | Djane | Seal of insight tanking is wierd. |
| 19:06.13 | [-jon-] | why would you use seal of insight anyway |
| 19:08.49 | Djane | Because it heals you. |
| 19:09.19 | Izzmo | "For a retarded amount" I might add. |
| 19:09.22 | [-jon-] | I doubt much |
| 19:09.37 | Djane | 400k on that fight |
| 19:09.38 | Izzmo | tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves for around 8-10k HPS |
| 19:09.38 | Djane | 5min 30 |
| 19:10.02 | [-jon-] | how much damage would seal of truth have done? |
| 19:10.08 | Djane | Irrelevant. |
| 19:10.10 | Djane | Nef isn't a dps check. |
| 19:10.19 | Djane | And threat is roflstomp. |
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| 19:10.31 | [-jon-] | i have threat problems but maybe our tanks are just bad |
| 19:10.37 | Djane | I do 40-50k tps. |
| 19:10.43 | Djane | In my heavy self healing spec. |
| 19:10.49 | [-jon-] | i dont see why the tank doesnt give me salv before i pull |
| 19:10.59 | Djane | because it's useless |
| 19:11.03 | Izzmo | Djane, do you have any exp/hit on u? |
| 19:11.07 | [-jon-] | 20% less threat |
| 19:11.10 | Djane | Izzmo, 5% hit for nef. |
| 19:11.12 | Izzmo | Salv isn't useless.. |
| 19:11.13 | Djane | No expertise. |
| 19:11.16 | Djane | It is on the pull. |
| 19:11.22 | Izzmo | Not really |
| 19:11.23 | Djane | Glyphed is useful. |
| 19:11.28 | Djane | Unglyphed, utterly useless. |
| 19:11.32 | [-jon-] | Djane: i stopped glyphing for it |
| 19:11.38 | Izzmo | Most dps like to bring it out at the beginnig of a fight |
| 19:11.41 | [-jon-] | because i would end up pulling after it wore off |
| 19:11.45 | Djane | Then stop complaining that the tank doesn't salv you. |
| 19:11.48 | [-jon-] | the glyph doesnt erase your threat, just delays it |
| 19:12.05 | Izzmo | Mmm, well |
| 19:12.13 | Djane | Unglyphed salv reduces so little threat when used on the pull that you might as well of rolled druid and cowered. |
| 19:12.17 | Izzmo | You would hope the tank would have enough TPS by that time |
| 19:12.28 | [-jon-] | the glyph is useless the tank gets his threat up before it wears off |
| 19:12.37 | [-jon-] | i sometimes pull halfway through the fight |
| 19:12.43 | Djane | then your tank is bad. |
| 19:12.45 | Izzmo | what is ur class? |
| 19:12.48 | [-jon-] | ret |
| 19:12.52 | Izzmo | Ah |
| 19:12.55 | Djane | My 25k dpsers can't pull off me. |
| 19:12.58 | Djane | Not remotely. |
| 19:13.03 | [-jon-] | my gear isnt even that good |
| 19:13.13 | Izzmo | Do u stay 5% all the time Djane? |
| 19:13.17 | Izzmo | or just for nef? |
| 19:13.27 | [-jon-] | Izzmo: you need the interrupt to hit on nef |
| 19:13.29 | Djane | All the time, mostly because everything else is faceroll for us right now. |
| 19:13.41 | [-jon-] | is the interrupt cap only 5% and not 8? |
| 19:13.45 | Djane | Yes. |
| 19:13.48 | Djane | For level 85 mobs |
| 19:13.56 | [-jon-] | oh right, its not a boss |
| 19:14.07 | Djane | Come 4.1 i'll be dropping to 0% hit and 10 expertise(glyphed) |
| 19:14.19 | Izzmo | Why's that? |
| 19:14.20 | [-jon-] | you need to switch seals for that 10 exp |
| 19:14.26 | [-jon-] | Izzmo: interrupts cant miss next patch |
| 19:14.29 | Djane | They're taking hit requirements off rebuke. |
| 19:14.36 | Izzmo | Pummel for warriors can't miss? |
| 19:14.43 | Djane | Non damaging interupts. |
| 19:14.44 | Izzmo | I didn't see that in patch notes, hmm |
| 19:15.02 | Izzmo | That's nice |
| 19:15.05 | [-jon-] | it was in the first patch notes |
| 19:15.09 | Izzmo | I'm sick of warrior tanks have a 12 sec CD too |
| 19:15.37 | [-jon-] | imo prot pallys interrupts are op |
| 19:16.20 | [-jon-] | warriors sorta s uck in that department |
| 19:17.28 | [-jon-] | my guild refuses to let me go ret, its really getting frustrating |
| 19:18.43 | Izzmo | If you know how to dps in Ret.. paly ret is very good dps imho |
| 19:18.51 | [-jon-] | i do very well |
| 19:18.53 | Izzmo | a lot of ppl still think is sucks though purely because so many people suck at ret |
| 19:19.10 | [-jon-] | my gear is signifigantly worse than everyone else's, and i am still usually #1-2 |
| 19:19.32 | Izzmo | Wow, niec |
| 19:19.54 | [-jon-] | I have 2 blues, a pvp relic, and tanking bracers. |
| 19:21.18 | [-jon-] | I am going to literally have to say I am going ret or I quit |
| 19:23.15 | [-jon-] | Izzmo: I dont understand how people can suck at ret |
| 19:23.20 | [-jon-] | the rotation is not difficult. |
| 19:24.28 | Izzmo | Yeah, I dunno, I'm not a paly lol; |
| 19:24.55 | [-jon-] | there is literally an addon |
| 19:25.01 | [-jon-] | that tells you what button to press for optimal dps |
| 19:25.09 | Djane | Which is also quite suboptimal. |
| 19:25.38 | Izzmo | I don't know why ppl would ever use such an addon |
| 19:26.05 | [-jon-] | I use it |
| 19:26.12 | [-jon-] | Djane: Its based on the EJ rotation |
| 19:26.24 | Djane | Rotations don't take into account situational effects. |
| 19:26.26 | Djane | Which a good raider will |
| 19:26.32 | [-jon-] | right |
| 19:26.32 | Djane | (i have to move in 7 seconds, therefore i Do X) |
| 19:26.42 | [-jon-] | but it at least helps keeping up inq, etc |
| 19:34.08 | Gnarfoz | that's BS; I challenge you to do more dps than possible by adhering to a properly setup clcinfo |
| 19:34.31 | Gnarfoz | if you can't use it and be situationally aware, there's going to be bigger problems anyway |
| 19:35.32 | Gnarfoz | it also frees up some of your attention, which leads to higher situational awareness in return |
| 19:35.58 | [-jon-] | just because you use it doesnt mean you have to follow it blindly |
| 19:36.01 | Izzmo | If you are good at your rotational and have simple key bindings.. then you should be fine without an addon |
| 19:36.07 | Djane | Gnarfoz, my point is. |
| 19:36.14 | Djane | Clc doesn't know if you have to move in 7 seconds. |
| 19:36.18 | Djane | or maybe 5 seconds. |
| 19:36.20 | Gnarfoz | Izzmo: there is not rotation |
| 19:36.29 | [-jon-] | Izzmo: its all based on procs really |
| 19:36.35 | Djane | Zealotry stacks fantastic, for instance with wings |
| 19:36.59 | [-jon-] | Djane: I know that is better dps, but it always frustrates me not being able to do an exo proc :( |
| 19:36.59 | Djane | And no addon can factor in raid circumstances with procs. |
| 19:37.02 | Gnarfoz | Djane: so? name an example of something you would not do or do differently, knowing you would have to move soon |
| 19:37.32 | [-jon-] | you use the addon AND you think about what is coming up! |
| 19:37.43 | Gnarfoz | also, taking into account raid circumstances, at least timer-based ones, would not be hard to implement, really |
| 19:37.46 | Djane | a)burn phases |
| 19:37.58 | [-jon-] | clc doesnt tell you to pop cooldowns |
| 19:38.02 | Djane | (for instance damage vulnerabilities) |
| 19:38.23 | Djane | No, it tells you how to manage your procs, which a is easy, b would have you use up your HP when it might be better served holding onto it. |
| 19:38.40 | [-jon-] | so hold on to it |
| 19:38.43 | Djane | Exactly. |
| 19:38.48 | Djane | clc would tell you to use TV. |
| 19:38.48 | [-jon-] | but you really shouldnt be holding on to it for long |
| 19:38.53 | Djane | No, of course not. |
| 19:38.55 | [-jon-] | Djane: that doesnt mean you have to do it |
| 19:39.05 | Djane | What i'm saying is it's suboptimal in many situational situations. |
| 19:39.19 | Djane | if you don't follow it, why bother in the first place. |
| 19:39.20 | Gnarfoz | I contest that. |
| 19:39.25 | [-jon-] | you have to turn your monitor on |
| 19:39.31 | Djane | Gnarfoz, you have 3 hp, you're going up onto magmaw to do chains. |
| 19:39.38 | Gnarfoz | following it as closely as the situation allows = maximum possible dps output |
| 19:39.38 | Djane | Do you a)use TV like clcinfo says |
| 19:39.53 | Gnarfoz | of course I do TV, the HP would decay while I ride the fucker |
| 19:39.55 | Djane | b)use something else then popping wings and zealotry on burn phase and leading with a TV. |
| 19:39.58 | Djane | No, it wouldn't. |
| 19:40.01 | Djane | (i've tested) |
| 19:40.05 | [-jon-] | unless youre jumping at that point, you probably should use it |
| 19:40.12 | [-jon-] | holy power doesnt decay in combat |
| 19:40.14 | [-jon-] | afaik |
| 19:40.27 | Gnarfoz | then you gained the 3rd HP 1s before you jumped, or something ;) |
| 19:40.30 | [-jon-] | Djane: iirc the burn phase is longer than wings + zealotry |
| 19:40.41 | Djane | [-jon-], of course it is. |
| 19:40.46 | Djane | That doesn't change the optimisation of your abilities. |
| 19:40.52 | [-jon-] | yes it does |
| 19:41.02 | Djane | (not to mention you have a higher chance on internal procs coming of the initial attacks due to a period of no damage) |
| 19:41.09 | Gnarfoz | and you don't want to save 3HP to start a burn phase with a TV, you want to use those 3HP before popping CDs to refresh Inq, so you don't have to waste HP on it during Zealotry |
| 19:41.20 | [-jon-] | if youre holding 3 hp for more than a few gcds, youre probably doing it wrong |
| 19:41.22 | Djane | Gnarfoz, and had you used that TV, you wouldn't be able to refresh Inq. |
| 19:41.38 | [-jon-] | Gnarfoz: Ive had to refresh inquisition regardless |
| 19:41.40 | Djane | Thank you for proving my point. |
| 19:41.44 | Gnarfoz | you just said something else, now you turn what I said to your side? that's cute |
| 19:41.59 | Djane | You just provided a different reason for having HP in that situation. |
| 19:42.07 | Djane | Which proved the "you shouldn't use TV like clcinfo says" point. |
| 19:42.11 | Djane | So yes, pretty much. |
| 19:42.13 | [-jon-] | Djane: No addon is going to play your character for you. It does help though. |
| 19:42.18 | Gnarfoz | :S |
| 19:42.26 | Djane | I think it helps, like any buff or proc notifier addon would. |
| 19:42.31 | Djane | But following it is not always optimal. |
| 19:42.38 | Djane | 95% of the time it is. |
| 19:42.42 | Djane | If not even higher. |
| 19:42.46 | Djane | And in some fights, 100%. |
| 19:42.48 | Djane | But not always. |
| 19:42.51 | [-jon-] | you need to know when to stray from it |
| 19:43.10 | Djane | If you have sufficient knowledge of the class, and an advanced sense of judgement, you will do more dps. |
| 19:43.19 | Gnarfoz | so why make your wording "it's suboptimal in many situational situations" when you really want to say "you still need to use your brain"? :P |
| 19:43.21 | Djane | (then if you follow everything it says 100% of the time) |
| 19:43.31 | Djane | Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. |
| 19:43.31 | [-jon-] | nobody said it was right 100% of the time |
| 19:43.36 | Gnarfoz | brain users do more dps! |
| 19:43.42 | [-jon-] | but that doesnt mean you shouldnt follow it the other 95% of the time |
| 19:43.44 | Djane | It is suboptimal in many situational situations. |
| 19:43.56 | [-jon-] | so, use it when it is optimal, otherwise ignore it |
| 19:44.17 | Djane | And here I point out to basic psychologyu. |
| 19:44.35 | Djane | Following an external input device into your decision making process introduces lag. |
| 19:44.56 | [-jon-] | there is a gcd. |
| 19:45.24 | [-jon-] | and clc will tell you 1 gcd ahead, you have plenty of time to think. |
| 19:45.41 | Djane | by having clcinfo, instead of knowing how to play ret properly, you add a conflicting piece of data into your game. If you are capable of doing all the same things that clcinfo would tell you to do, because -you- know it's the right thing to do, you remove said lag. It's not significant lag, but it's there nonetheless. |
| 19:45.57 | [-jon-] | you are arguing a retarded point |
| 19:46.04 | Djane | I'm arguing skill > addon. |
| 19:46.14 | [-jon-] | i am arguing skill + addon > addon |
| 19:46.15 | Djane | You're right, it is retarded. |
| 19:46.19 | Djane | That should be obvious. |
| 19:46.20 | [-jon-] | skill + addon > skill |
| 19:46.32 | Djane | Addon negatively impacts your skill. |
| 19:46.35 | Izzmo | lulz |
| 19:46.40 | [-jon-] | no, you are wrong. |
| 19:46.42 | Djane | If you add it into your decision making process, it makes you worse. |
| 19:46.46 | Djane | (assuming equal skill) |
| 19:46.49 | [-jon-] | no, you are wrong. |
| 19:47.04 | Djane | Clcinfo is more advanced than your brain at processing information, is it? |
| 19:47.22 | Gnarfoz | it's also perfect at processing information, because it's a computer program. |
| 19:47.39 | [-jon-] | unless the boss has specific mechanics, it is always going to be right. |
| 19:47.40 | Djane | if only we had some kind of processing capacity that could computate billions of pieces of information, experience and knowledge in a fraction of a nanosecond, somehow. |
| 19:47.52 | [-jon-] | which means you have more focus to avoid other shit, etc |
| 19:47.54 | Gnarfoz | and it's faster than you in taking into account procs, mana, gcd, whatever |
| 19:47.58 | Djane | No, it isn't. |
| 19:48.00 | Djane | It's just easier. |
| 19:48.14 | [-jon-] | its faster |
| 19:48.34 | Djane | Unless you're running a quantum computer, that would defy the laws of reality. |
| 19:48.40 | [-jon-] | you need to take into account your cooldowns, your mana, your buffs, your procs, and your holy power |
| 19:48.45 | Djane | Which isn't that hard. |
| 19:48.46 | robokitty | blows the whistle |
| 19:48.48 | robokitty | right |
| 19:48.48 | Djane | Especially for ret. |
| 19:48.54 | robokitty | that's a timeout, go to your corners |
| 19:48.55 | Djane | Oh wait. |
| 19:48.55 | Gnarfoz | it would certainly not, because your brain does not work instantaneously either. |
| 19:48.55 | [-jon-] | all at different places on your screen |
| 19:48.57 | *** join/#wowhead Ressolute (~videodrom@adsl-68-191-103.cha.bellsouth.net) |
| 19:48.58 | Djane | am i meant to be raidleading? : |
| 19:49.01 | robokitty | yes |
| 19:49.36 | Izzmo | Fact: brains have a 4 ms delay |
| 19:49.37 | [-jon-] | a computer can generate the optimal ability faster than your brain. |
| 19:50.04 | Djane | Izzmo, more accurately, brains have a 4ms delay from information to decision. |
| 19:50.06 | robokitty | your brain still have to interpret the data from the computer and convert it an action |
| 19:50.17 | Gnarfoz | how can something that quasi-instantly (maximum delay: 1 frame) gives you the result of multiple input datapoints algorithmically not be faster than you manually taking those datapoints in via sensory input, read: seeing, hearing, reading? |
| 19:50.21 | [-jon-] | the addon will calculate it far faster than 4ms. |
| 19:50.48 | Gnarfoz | (I realize reading = seeing, I meant symbols/graphics vs. text) |
| 19:51.05 | *** join/#wowhead rcfreak0 (~rcfreak0@75-129-147-218.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com) |
| 19:51.27 | [-jon-] | It has 16 ms before your sreen even refreshes. probably double that. |
| 19:51.40 | Gnarfoz | uhm? |
| 19:51.42 | Gnarfoz | so? |
| 19:51.55 | Djane | Now add in the additional delay created by decision dissonance? |
| 19:52.04 | Gnarfoz | those 16ms apply to your brain, too, because before your screen refreshes, there is no data for you to take in |
| 19:52.07 | Djane | That's between 100 and 1500ms, for the average person. |
| 19:52.18 | [-jon-] | rofl |
| 19:52.19 | Djane | Sometimes, sometimes, in exceptional people as little as 75ms |
| 19:52.21 | [-jon-] | 1500 ms? |
| 19:52.28 | [-jon-] | do they have downs? |
| 19:52.34 | Djane | No, that's the -average- person. |
| 19:52.42 | Djane | Well, technically. |
| 19:52.47 | Gnarfoz | so in the same instant that you can start to take in the data, the addon will already have processed it and displayed the new result (if the result changed) |
| 19:52.56 | Djane | Since Downs has no scientically noticable alteration of decision making dissonance. |
| 19:53.10 | [-jon-] | Djane is trying to act smart. maybe he took psych 101 |
| 19:53.16 | Gnarfoz | ...and failed |
| 19:53.43 | Djane | It's the same principle as someone walking out in front of your car just as the green light comes on at the traffic light |
| 19:53.54 | Djane | You have two opposing instructions to the brain, and you need to process which one takes precident. |
| 19:54.09 | Gnarfoz | urrr when my green light goes on, his has been red for 5s+ |
| 19:54.19 | Djane | Irrelevant. |
| 19:54.22 | [-jon-] | you can anticipate any break from the rotation. |
| 19:54.31 | Gnarfoz | of course, since it goes contrary to your example. hahaha |
| 19:54.42 | Djane | It's irrelevant becuase it's a hypothetical situation. |
| 19:54.46 | Djane | A well documented one at that. |
| 19:54.56 | Gnarfoz | your hypothetical situation still has to make sense. |
| 19:54.58 | [-jon-] | Djane: what are your qualifications to make these claims? |
| 19:54.59 | Djane | You can't ignore the point by saying it shouldn't happen, because whilst right, that doesn't change it from happening. |
| 19:55.22 | Gnarfoz | it doesn't happen, lights don't turn green for cars the same instant pedestrian's turn red |
| 19:55.33 | Djane | It does happen, because people are dicks and try to run across anyways. |
| 19:55.47 | Gnarfoz | which is a totally different situation |
| 19:55.58 | Djane | No, it isn't. Light turns green, someone walks out in front of you. |
| 19:56.00 | Gnarfoz | which includes purposefully ignoring the lights |
| 19:56.03 | [-jon-] | I cant believe you are making such a retarded argument |
| 19:56.15 | [-jon-] | someone ignored the light. |
| 19:56.21 | Gnarfoz | there are four lights! |
| 19:56.26 | Djane | Yes, what is relevant is how the brain processes that information. |
| 19:56.32 | Djane | Not the relative legal standing in it. |
| 19:56.34 | [-jon-] | Djane: what are your qualifications to make these claims? |
| 19:57.20 | Djane | You mean, quote conclusions from well documented peer reviewed studies? |
| 19:57.26 | Djane | I wasn't aware there was a degree in that. |
| 19:57.29 | [-jon-] | I can be good at bullshitting my way out of an argument too. |
| 19:57.30 | *** join/#wowhead ShinDarth (~shin@host118-110-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:57.49 | [-jon-] | throw in some bs science, and a few big words |
| 19:57.53 | Djane | In terms of education I'm what you'd call a major in neuroscience, specialising in psyiological somatism in relation to trauma. |
| 19:58.02 | Djane | Not that that matters anything in an internet debate. |
| 19:58.09 | Djane | physio* |
| 19:58.27 | Gnarfoz | his question is a valid one, since you seem to be referencing, if not quoting stuff, but citing no sources. so either you're some prodigy on this (and hence, have qualifications) or you have sources. or you're full of it. :) |
| 19:58.50 | Djane | My sources are sitting in a pile of textbooks and magazines. |
| 19:58.56 | Gnarfoz | for a change, alternative 2 seems to apply, hehe. |
| 19:59.00 | [-jon-] | my sources are sitting on the internet |
| 19:59.09 | [-jon-] | does that make them valid? |
| 19:59.16 | Djane | If it's true, yes. |
| 19:59.23 | *** join/#wowhead deek| (deek@cpe-75-85-213-93.dc.res.rr.com) |
| 19:59.28 | Djane | I have a question. |
| 19:59.34 | Djane | are you ok with the idea of decision dissonance? |
| 19:59.45 | [-jon-] | your argument is wrong. |
| 19:59.55 | [-jon-] | no matter how mayn big words you throw out there |
| 20:00.02 | Djane | Can you accept that two pieces of information coming in close together, with opposing directions of purpose will create a dissonance in decision making processes? |
| 20:01.16 | *** join/#wowhead Judicata (186a35aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.106.53.170) |
| 20:01.23 | Judicata | G'Afternoonall |
| 20:01.34 | fewyn | BIG WORDS |
| 20:01.39 | Gnarfoz | small words |
| 20:01.39 | fewyn | MAKE BRAIN HURT |
| 20:01.52 | fewyn | FEWYN MUST SMASH BIG WORDS |
| 20:01.59 | Djane | FEWYNSMASH. |
| 20:02.10 | Judicata | G' Afternoon All |
| 20:02.13 | Judicata | ;P |
| 20:02.50 | Gnarfoz | Djane: being suggested by an addon "do X" and your situation awareness suggesting "maybe better do Y" is not really such a drastic situation, though. it's more like having two alternatives and picking the better one. it's not like you're under pressure to decide |
| 20:02.56 | Gnarfoz | *situational |
| 20:03.37 | Juippis | play without addons to train your situational awareness even better |
| 20:03.47 | Djane | Gnarfoz, that would be true if the brain acted under computational logic. |
| 20:04.11 | Djane | But the brain chooses via exclusion rather than parallel logic. |
| 20:04.24 | [-jon-] | regardless |
| 20:04.25 | Djane | Doing a must exclude b, and doing b must exclude a. |
| 20:04.29 | [-jon-] | as long as you choose before the next gcd |
| 20:04.29 | Gnarfoz | uhm |
| 20:04.33 | [-jon-] | it does not make a difference. at all. |
| 20:04.39 | Gnarfoz | so you're saying the brain is not capable of compromise. |
| 20:05.01 | Juippis | during the moment of decision it's not |
| 20:05.05 | Djane | ^ |
| 20:05.16 | Gnarfoz | which is obviously not true, or must be rendered as "but you could also do C which exludes both a and b" |
| 20:05.20 | Djane | You cannot hold two mutually exclusive thoughts simultaniously. |
| 20:05.27 | Djane | Yes, of course. |
| 20:05.36 | Djane | There are an infinite numbers of You could also do N |
| 20:05.57 | Judicata | You are hurting my brain |
| 20:06.07 | Gnarfoz | so how is this in any way a restriction on the brain's decision making? |
| 20:06.25 | Gnarfoz | you can still pick the best solution out of many, regardless of conflicts |
| 20:06.32 | Gnarfoz | no matter how you got there |
| 20:06.43 | Djane | It's not a restriction. The principle of decision dissonance states that the more opposing variables are within the matrix, the greater the delay in resolving said matrix. |
| 20:06.51 | Gnarfoz | and as you so neatly pointed out earlier, the brain is exceedingly good at this |
| 20:06.52 | Djane | If you have 10 choices, all of which are different |
| 20:06.58 | Djane | It would take considerably longer than 5. |
| 20:07.07 | Djane | The more different the decisions, the longer, the more, the longer. |
| 20:07.24 | Djane | Now, if you have information source a: Clcinfo that tells you to do crusader strike |
| 20:07.49 | Juippis | wait what are you arguing over an addon which tells you what to press next? |
| 20:07.51 | Juippis | fuck off |
| 20:07.56 | Djane | Juippis, that he is. |
| 20:08.01 | Gnarfoz | I am? you are! |
| 20:08.06 | Djane | I'm arguing against them. |
| 20:08.09 | Gnarfoz | we're just arguing you're full of it :P |
| 20:08.17 | Djane | Or rather, stating that you can get better results without using them. |
| 20:08.39 | [-jon-] | do you use DBM? or any addons? |
| 20:08.43 | [-jon-] | that might cause confusion |
| 20:08.47 | Djane | Yes, it might. |
| 20:08.58 | Djane | I actually run my own timers. |
| 20:09.04 | [-jon-] | what if your timers are wrong |
| 20:09.08 | Djane | Then I have to compensate. |
| 20:09.12 | Gnarfoz | you run your timers IN YOUR MIND |
| 20:09.15 | Djane | and adjust on the fly. |
| 20:09.16 | [-jon-] | then stop using timers |
| 20:09.18 | Gnarfoz | otherwise they'd be conflicting |
| 20:09.19 | Djane | Gnarfoz, some, not all. |
| 20:09.21 | Gnarfoz | durrrr |
| 20:09.28 | Djane | [-jon-], and? |
| 20:09.30 | Djane | It's not that hard. |
| 20:09.44 | [-jon-] | but its hard if the button says crusader strike and you dont want to? |
| 20:09.55 | Djane | I never said it was hard. |
| 20:10.02 | [-jon-] | Djane is arguing just to argue |
| 20:10.03 | [-jon-] | fuck you |
| 20:10.03 | Djane | It's suboptimal to introduce a conflicting piece of information. |
| 20:10.06 | Gnarfoz | face it, you might be a good neuroscientist some day, but everyone using clcinfo will still do more dps than you following your theory of "less 'conflicting' info is more dps" |
| 20:10.19 | Djane | Assuming equal skill, it is. |
| 20:10.21 | Juippis | >everyone |
| 20:10.22 | Juippis | hehe |
| 20:10.33 | Djane | Assuming you have the capacity to hold the information about your class in your mind, it is. |
| 20:10.43 | [-jon-] | plus all of the variables |
| 20:10.46 | Djane | If you don't have the ability, skill or inclination to hold that information, or train that muscle memory(depending on class) |
| 20:10.48 | [-jon-] | which you cant hold in your mind |
| 20:10.53 | Djane | Then yes, clc will be better. |
| 20:10.57 | *** join/#wowhead Judicata_ (186a35aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.106.53.170) |
| 20:11.13 | Gnarfoz | there is no muscle memory involved in a proc based skill priority list |
| 20:11.20 | Djane | No, which is why I said depending on class. |
| 20:11.22 | Gnarfoz | there is no set rotation to follow |
| 20:11.23 | [-jon-] | skill + addon > skill = addon |
| 20:11.25 | Gnarfoz | alright |
| 20:11.29 | Djane | It's almost as if I quantified that. |
| 20:11.37 | Djane | [-jon-], let me put that right for you. |
| 20:11.57 | Djane | High enough level of skill > high enough level of skill + addon > average skill + addon > skill |
| 20:11.59 | Gnarfoz | let's turn this in another direction. would having two brains improve the situation? |
| 20:12.04 | Djane | Probably not. |
| 20:12.10 | [-jon-] | Gnarfoz: no, conflicting information |
| 20:12.14 | Gnarfoz | conflicting brains! |
| 20:12.17 | Djane | Yes. |
| 20:12.30 | Djane | Which is also a relatively well documented set of phenomina. |
| 20:12.41 | [-jon-] | Djane got an A+ in bullshitting |
| 20:12.46 | Djane | Some brain damage can cause what's known as colloqually as split brain syndrome. |
| 20:12.59 | Djane | Where the right half and left half fight over decision making processes. |
| 20:13.17 | Djane | There's some sensationalised bullshit around it, but it's mostly accurate in principle, if not practise. |
| 20:13.23 | Gnarfoz | I've got enough split brain syndrome to handle at work, when a cluster node disconnects ;\ |
| 20:13.52 | Judicata_ | So....I feel left out as a wow nerd by not having a computer job :/ |
| 20:14.08 | Gnarfoz | being a wow nerd does not qualify you for one |
| 20:14.14 | Djane | The whole point I was making is If you're good enough to be able to react within that 1 gcd jon keeps pointing out optimally, an addon that provides the same information but cannot account for situational instances will negatively impact your dps. |
| 20:14.17 | [-jon-] | at least you have a job? |
| 20:14.46 | Djane | If you're unable to come to the same conclusions clc does those 95-99% of the times then yeah, clc would be an increase for you. |
| 20:14.50 | Juippis | also wtf kind of nickname is [-jon-] |
| 20:15.01 | Gnarfoz | Djane: and we're saying: you will be slower at processing the information required to react within that timeframe. hence, use an addon that speeds this up |
| 20:15.02 | [-jon-] | this is fucking freenode |
| 20:15.02 | Juippis | cubes and walls |
| 20:15.37 | Djane | Gnarfoz, the average human being is more than adequate in processing that information quick enough by an order of magnitude or so. |
| 20:15.40 | Juippis | Gnarfoz: how does it work? Does it give you like a popup which tells you what to press next? |
| 20:15.44 | Juippis | I hate popups in my screen |
| 20:15.55 | [-jon-] | Juippis: it has a little icon |
| 20:15.56 | Gnarfoz | it's not a popup, it's constantly there |
| 20:16.03 | [-jon-] | two, one for the current, and one for the next |
| 20:16.05 | Djane | The one advantage clc will always have is in compensating for lag. |
| 20:16.09 | Juippis | like forte? |
| 20:16.14 | Gnarfoz | forte has nothing to do with it |
| 20:16.24 | Juippis | but is it similar? |
| 20:16.29 | Djane | Juippis, it is, to you, yes. |
| 20:16.31 | Gnarfoz | I don't think so |
| 20:16.42 | Gnarfoz | it is similar in that both are addons. that is basically all |
| 20:16.43 | [-jon-] | Juippis: http://media.curse.com/Curse.Projects.ProjectImages/20386/16808/clcret_frame_bf.jpg |
| 20:16.50 | Djane | Gnarfoz, i'll elaborate on my point above. |
| 20:17.05 | Djane | I assume you use forte to give you the information in one place to help you decide what your next gcd should be? |
| 20:17.10 | Djane | @Juippis. |
| 20:17.25 | Juippis | mm yea I guess that was the point |
| 20:17.32 | Djane | Then yes, clc just does that for you. |
| 20:17.37 | Juippis | I tried forte during wotlk when cata patch hit and all classes got RNGd |
| 20:17.41 | Juippis | and I hated it |
| 20:17.44 | Gnarfoz | Djane: uhm, you're saying that having, at the same time!, available to you: a fully finished decision, presented to you as clcinfo's "do this next" icon; and: a visual indicator for a proc, maybe a sound playing... that the latter, which still requires processing by your brain, is going to be faster? |
| 20:18.02 | [-jon-] | Juippis: clc will take procs in to account |
| 20:18.19 | BlackNet | i hate allergies :( |
| 20:18.21 | Djane | Gnarfoz, two things. |
| 20:18.23 | Juippis | but blizzards default UI does it too pretty well |
| 20:18.25 | Juippis | so it's good |
| 20:18.34 | Djane | a)the human mind, if it has access to all the information at the same time as clc, will do it faster, yes. |
| 20:18.42 | Juippis | those kinds of addons are useless bling bling |
| 20:18.43 | [-jon-] | the default ui doesnt do anything with inquisition |
| 20:18.55 | [-jon-] | besides having to stare at the small buff icon |
| 20:19.02 | Djane | b)the human mind can do it in around 1/10th[average approx] of the time needed, |
| 20:19.05 | Djane | It's not about faster. |
| 20:19.09 | Djane | It's about collision of data. |
| 20:19.32 | Gnarfoz | Djane: but you can't assume that. given how WoW's addon system works, clcinfo will always be already done calculating at the same time that you get to see the information it used for its calculation. |
| 20:19.41 | BlackNet | what is clc |
| 20:19.45 | Djane | No, you can't, thus as I stated above. |
| 20:20.01 | Gnarfoz | so why are you arguing an impossible situation? |
| 20:20.03 | Djane | <Djane> The one advantage clc will always have is in compensating for lag. |
| 20:20.10 | Gnarfoz | the mind can never be faster, clcinfo will always already be done |
| 20:20.14 | Gnarfoz | it has nothing to do with lag |
| 20:20.14 | Djane | Irrelevant. |
| 20:20.19 | Djane | It's not about faster, it's about optimisation. |
| 20:20.29 | Juippis | a-ha! |
| 20:20.30 | [-jon-] | Gnarfoz: It also takes into account the next move. ie. you have 2 holy power and you are doing a cursder strike. you will have 3 holy power then, so do X |
| 20:20.31 | Djane | If you have 1 second to make your decision, and clc takes 0.04 seconds, and the mind takes 0.1 seconds |
| 20:20.33 | Juippis | I know where this is going now |
| 20:20.49 | Gnarfoz | optimize this: A is done at second 0, B is done at second 0 + brain processing time. which is optimal? A, not B |
| 20:21.01 | Gnarfoz | Juippis: shitville |
| 20:21.11 | Djane | Gnarfoz, you're neglecting to consider that the brain STILL has to process the information from clcinfo |
| 20:21.14 | [-jon-] | FUCK |
| 20:21.22 | [-jon-] | I set a way too low bid price and one of my ingots sold for 100g :( |
| 20:21.24 | Djane | Which takes the same amount of time as to derive the solution itself, more or less. |
| 20:21.27 | Gnarfoz | Djane: that information is a lot simpler than the other info, though. |
| 20:21.38 | Juippis | not necessarily |
| 20:21.39 | Djane | Not really. |
| 20:21.49 | Djane | or rather. |
| 20:21.57 | Djane | When the brain handles about a trillion pieces of information a second. |
| 20:21.59 | Gnarfoz | and: I contest that it takes the same amount of time to see "do X" and understand this, than it takes to take in all new circumnstances and come to the same (or another, better) conclusion |
| 20:22.04 | Djane | Whether it comes in 10 bits or 100 bits, is kind of irrelevant. |
| 20:22.22 | [-jon-] | you have to take in information all over your screen as well |
| 20:22.24 | [-jon-] | its not in one place |
| 20:22.31 | [-jon-] | you have to look at like 5 different things |
| 20:22.37 | Gnarfoz | and the best thing is: neither of us can prove the other wrong without relying on non-problem-specific data |
| 20:22.39 | Djane | If you have a default or poor ui, yes. |
| 20:22.53 | [-jon-] | well, what else are you going to compare it to other than stock? |
| 20:23.10 | Djane | The vast majority of raiders will have data information gathering addons of one form or another |
| 20:23.19 | Gnarfoz | clcinfo is one of them... |
| 20:23.29 | Djane | A part of clcinfo is one of them, yes. |
| 20:23.33 | BlackNet | so clc is a power aura spinoff? |
| 20:23.35 | [-jon-] | Gnarfoz: give up |
| 20:23.37 | [-jon-] | you cant fix stupid |
| 20:23.40 | Gnarfoz | BlackNet: no. |
| 20:23.48 | BlackNet | [-jon-] you can fix stupid. you can replace it |
| 20:23.50 | Djane | If you just used clcinfo as a proc addon, it would have no problems. |
| 20:24.08 | BlackNet | Main purpose of the addon is to help the user easily track various cooldowns/auras/procs. |
| 20:24.17 | BlackNet | sounds like power auras |
| 20:24.24 | Gnarfoz | it would have *the same* problem you claim it has, unless it supresses the original info |
| 20:24.34 | Gnarfoz | BlackNet: main purpose is not that. that's secondary. |
| 20:24.40 | Djane | Gnarfoz, not at all. |
| 20:24.53 | Djane | If you have an addon that notifies you when shortbuff A procs. |
| 20:24.54 | *** join/#wowhead yarddog (~yarddog@70.88.160.150) |
| 20:24.56 | BlackNet | then what is the main purpose |
| 20:25.03 | Djane | And an addon that tells you to press X when shortbuff A procs. |
| 20:25.14 | Djane | Situation 1 gives you a piece of information, a variable in the decision making process. |
| 20:25.18 | Gnarfoz | main purpose is to use its advanced features to make it tell you what button to press next, BlackNet |
| 20:25.22 | Djane | Situation 2 gives you a weighted conclusion to the decision making process. |
| 20:25.27 | Djane | Sit 1 is -always- useful. |
| 20:25.35 | Djane | Sit 2 can conflict due to its conclusional nature. |
| 20:25.59 | Gnarfoz | sit2 allow me to skip sit1 and weigh sit2 against whatever my mind came up with, itself |
| 20:26.02 | [-jon-] | I dont care what your books say. You are wrong. |
| 20:26.06 | Djane | No, it doesn't. |
| 20:26.09 | Djane | That's not how brains work. |
| 20:26.15 | Gnarfoz | ... |
| 20:26.19 | Djane | Sit2 competes against what your mind comes up with. |
| 20:26.26 | Djane | Which means your mind must eliminate one of them. |
| 20:26.29 | Gnarfoz | so? |
| 20:26.31 | Djane | (which is decisional dissonance) |
| 20:26.38 | Gnarfoz | that is not a problem. |
| 20:26.45 | Djane | And the average delay on that kind of disssonance, for this kind of situation is between 150-1500ms |
| 20:27.01 | Gnarfoz | there is not proc display addon saying "you should get the fuck out of where you're standing!!" |
| 20:27.14 | Gnarfoz | hence no "sit1" that applies for situational awareness |
| 20:27.23 | Djane | Except your senses. |
| 20:27.37 | Juippis | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:27.40 | Juippis | well presented argument! |
| 20:27.42 | Gnarfoz | indeed, and since they can't be embodied in an addon, your point is rather moot |
| 20:27.44 | Djane | this isn't even getting into situational paralysis. |
| 20:27.57 | BlackNet | everyone see the shots i took this am? |
| 20:27.58 | Gnarfoz | that's just when you're overwhelmed |
| 20:28.06 | BlackNet | http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/v/3409+idle+hour/IMG_1309.JPG.html |
| 20:28.07 | Gnarfoz | this am? |
| 20:28.12 | BlackNet | this morning |
| 20:28.14 | Djane | No, situational paralysis is a defined term. |
| 20:28.22 | Gnarfoz | "this am" is not possible :< |
| 20:28.36 | BlackNet | considering it's pm i can say this am :) |
| 20:28.38 | Djane | Its where the brain can't decide between opposing conclusions due to too equal sides, or various other conclusions. |
| 20:28.42 | BlackNet | as in the past |
| 20:28.48 | Gnarfoz | BlackNet: unless you know what those terms mean :F |
| 20:28.56 | BlackNet | am as in morning :) |
| 20:29.03 | Gnarfoz | "am" doesn't stand for morning. |
| 20:29.03 | BlackNet | thought everyone knew what that ment |
| 20:29.33 | Gnarfoz | it's bad enough the US is still stuck with 12-hour time, hehe |
| 20:29.46 | BlackNet | whatthefuckever dude |
| 20:29.53 | Judicata_ | ^Djane, that's why I'm of the branch of thought that implores the use of a simple UI with clear and precise aural and visual stimuli that provides somesort of info. |
| 20:30.21 | Djane | Judicata_, I tend to agree. |
| 20:30.38 | Djane | Gnarfoz, am and pm are universally understood. |
| 20:30.48 | Gnarfoz | or you could just suppress ALL those stimuli, let clcinfo do the thinking and then just "exclude" whether you want to do waht clcinfo says or what your surroundings (i.e. 3d stuff, your position, etc, things you can't suppress) dictate. |
| 20:30.54 | Djane | no, you can't. |
| 20:30.58 | Juippis | yeah I understood that but it's a good way to troll americans |
| 20:31.00 | Gnarfoz | Djane: if by "universally" you mean "the US", then I agree |
| 20:31.02 | Djane | Unless you're a robot. |
| 20:31.10 | Djane | Gnarfoz, england, europe, africa, australia, china. |
| 20:31.13 | Djane | Japan too. |
| 20:31.17 | Djane | Those are the places I know personally. |
| 20:31.21 | Gnarfoz | Djane: you're pulling that out of your ass. |
| 20:31.29 | Djane | also, this is the internet. |
| 20:31.30 | Izzmo | likes hot dogs |
| 20:31.34 | Djane | So you have cultural diffusion. |
| 20:31.37 | Djane | Anyways. |
| 20:31.38 | Gnarfoz | I'm in germany, which is certainly in Europe, and nobody would assume "this am" means "this morning" :p |
| 20:31.39 | BlackNet | Gnarfoz no he's not, so get over it |
| 20:31.47 | Djane | <Gnarfoz> or you could just suppress ALL those stimuli, let clcinfo do the thinking and then just "exclude" whether you want to do waht clcinfo says or what your surroundings (i.e. 3d stuff, your position, etc, things you can't suppress) dictate. |
| 20:31.51 | Djane | That is not how brains work. |
| 20:31.56 | Djane | That is not how decision making works. |
| 20:32.00 | Gnarfoz | that's how wow can work, nothing to do with my brain |
| 20:32.02 | Izzmo | OMG YOU GUYS ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT CLCINFO HOLY SHIT |
| 20:32.02 | Djane | That is not how you think. |
| 20:32.05 | Izzmo | It's been like an hour |
| 20:32.10 | [-jon-] | Gnarfoz: Give up. he's going to use that excuse until you stop arguing with him. |
| 20:32.10 | Djane | Welcome to the internet. |
| 20:32.15 | BlackNet | does clcinfo have a wetwire to the brain or something? |
| 20:32.22 | Djane | You cannot supress stimuli. |
| 20:32.23 | Gnarfoz | Izzmo: is your attention span too short? if so, follow BlackNet into the land if ignorant bliss |
| 20:32.31 | Izzmo | lol |
| 20:32.33 | Izzmo | I was playing SC2 |
| 20:32.36 | Gnarfoz | Djane: I can suppress wow displaying the stimuli, and they're gone. |
| 20:32.42 | *** part/#wowhead Glar (~Glar@75.103.13.171) |
| 20:32.50 | Djane | No, you cannot. |
| 20:32.53 | Gnarfoz | if you claim otherwise, you're contradicting reality. |
| 20:33.04 | Gnarfoz | so you say I can't disable proc displays, buff displays? |
| 20:33.14 | Gnarfoz | why must you insist that I cannot do which I can obviously do? |
| 20:33.15 | Djane | tilts head. |
| 20:33.18 | Judicata_ | Not through your brain you can't |
| 20:33.23 | BlackNet | hands out mydol |
| 20:33.27 | Djane | not through your brain, no. Through an external function, yes. |
| 20:33.28 | Gnarfoz | Judicata_: nobody claimed that |
| 20:33.33 | Djane | If the stimuli exists, you cannot ignore it. |
| 20:33.37 | Gnarfoz | ... |
| 20:33.40 | Gnarfoz | what the FUCK. |
| 20:33.54 | Gnarfoz | how can you be so bone headed? |
| 20:34.05 | Djane | The stimuli in question is the clc "press this next". |
| 20:34.07 | Judicata_ | So you're arguing to disable everything and just follow what clc states? |
| 20:34.19 | Ac-town | clc? |
| 20:34.19 | Djane | If you disable that, I have no problems. |
| 20:34.21 | Gnarfoz | the only way to know what procs and buffs are in play would be to reverse-engineer clcinfo's decision making process in my mind |
| 20:34.28 | Gnarfoz | why the fuck would my mind bother with that |
| 20:34.32 | Djane | Or display the information appropriately. |
| 20:34.38 | Djane | because it's -really- not that complicated. |
| 20:34.40 | Gnarfoz | Judicata_: almost that. |
| 20:34.41 | BlackNet | it's a game, who cares? |
| 20:34.49 | Judicata_ | That takes the game out of it really |
| 20:34.49 | Gnarfoz | BlackNet: we do, obviously, go back to making knives ;) |
| 20:34.52 | Izzmo | Oh shit.. BlackNet pulled out the "It's a game" |
| 20:35.03 | Judicata_ | ]And I don't think it would improve dps with any appreciable amount. |
| 20:35.07 | Izzmo | BlackNet.. you just lost. |
| 20:35.07 | Gnarfoz | next up: the "get a life" card |
| 20:35.09 | Djane | Gnarfoz, the logic clcinfo uses is really not that hard to follow. |
| 20:35.20 | BlackNet | and the game is loosing subscribers like the titanic taking on water |
| 20:35.29 | Izzmo | BlackNet, u know this how? |
| 20:35.29 | [-jon-] | no its not |
| 20:35.33 | Ac-town | wow losing people? |
| 20:35.34 | Gnarfoz | because he just thought it up. |
| 20:35.38 | Ac-town | I haven't seen it that much |
| 20:35.50 | Izzmo | The day Blizz closes a server is the day I'll believe u. |
| 20:35.55 | Djane | Gnarfoz, a real stretch of the brain would be to manually calculate combustion values for fire mages. |
| 20:35.55 | Ac-town | there is the normal burn out |
| 20:36.13 | Djane | because then you're looking at mulptiple five digit additions every fraction of a second. |
| 20:36.14 | [-jon-] | rift is new and shiny |
| 20:36.19 | Djane | That's just not doable for most people. |
| 20:36.33 | Ac-town | I've seen people come back from rift allready |
| 20:36.40 | Gnarfoz | Djane: my point is: if I suppress all the input clcinfo uses (which I can do, don't claim otherwise), then I can have a situation where I just have to weigh those circumstances I can not suppress (which clcinfo doesn't take into account anyweay) against clcinfo's suggestion. this works according to your claims. |
| 20:36.40 | Djane | clc's calculations though are dressed up in a lot of pretty math, but the actual mechanics are simple. |
| 20:36.43 | Judicata_ | The rift story line is really depressing :/ |
| 20:36.54 | Djane | reads. |
| 20:36.56 | [-jon-] | Ac-town: it's new. look at warhammer, APB, what were the others? |
| 20:37.04 | Djane | You can disable the input clcinfo uses, not suppress. |
| 20:37.05 | Ac-town | [-jon-]: Yeah |
| 20:37.09 | Djane | Which I agree with. |
| 20:37.12 | Gnarfoz | what. |
| 20:37.13 | Ac-town | I can understand people wanting to try it cause its new |
| 20:37.17 | Djane | You can turn that stimuli off |
| 20:37.24 | Gnarfoz | disabling would mean it's not available to clcinfo in the first place. |
| 20:37.26 | Djane | But you can't suppress, Suppress would mean they exist, and you ignore it. |
| 20:37.39 | Djane | You can disable them in terms of your experience of them. |
| 20:37.44 | Djane | remove them from your screen, etc. |
| 20:38.07 | Djane | But you can't actually stop your brain from intaking the stimulus if it has experience of them./ |
| 20:38.11 | Gnarfoz | if you're going to argue that, because clcinfo used them to come to a conclusion, I would inevitably know they were in play, and hence couldn't do anything BUT try to reverse-engineer them from clcinfo's result, then you're simply nuts. why would I want to spend time on that? |
| 20:38.24 | Djane | You're not understanding my point there. |
| 20:38.34 | Gnarfoz | probably because it's bordering on insanity. |
| 20:38.35 | Gnarfoz | :D |
| 20:38.37 | Djane | What i'm saying is, if you remove the input clc uses from your perception of the world. |
| 20:38.45 | Djane | So don't show them on the screen, but let clc do it. |
| 20:38.48 | Djane | That's fine. |
| 20:38.52 | Gnarfoz | that's what I am saying |
| 20:38.58 | Gnarfoz | and that's what I can technically achieve |
| 20:38.59 | Djane | Yes, you're using the wrong terminology. |
| 20:39.17 | [-jon-] | your brain cannot process all of the information it receives. |
| 20:39.23 | Djane | [-jon-], incorrect. |
| 20:39.31 | Gnarfoz | not... really, unless you mistook my "supress" as anything else than "not displaying/playing sound in game" |
| 20:39.33 | Djane | Your conscious mind cannot conceive all the information it receives. |
| 20:39.42 | BlackNet | psychology tells us we process more info that we are conscious of. |
| 20:39.49 | BlackNet | like patterns on the ceiling and floor |
| 20:39.54 | Gnarfoz | you're hearing voices, BlackNet |
| 20:39.56 | Djane | Gnarfoz, supress means to push down in terms of your unconscious awareness of data. |
| 20:40.03 | Gnarfoz | yeah, in your corner of the world. |
| 20:40.07 | Djane | i.e attempting to become unaware of something |
| 20:40.24 | Gnarfoz | if I make them invisible in the game client, then they're still there, not disabled, but suppressed. words have more than one application. |
| 20:40.48 | Djane | Supress is the wrong word if you're talking about the brain, in this instance. |
| 20:40.56 | Gnarfoz | I'm not talking about the brain. |
| 20:40.57 | Djane | (and I really wish I knew if it had one p or two) |
| 20:41.04 | Gnarfoz | I'm talking about visual and aural effects in the game. |
| 20:41.13 | Gnarfoz | suppress, two p |
| 20:41.17 | Djane | Thanks. |
| 20:41.18 | Djane | Either way |
| 20:41.20 | Djane | Terminology aside. |
| 20:41.24 | Djane | I'll continue |
| 20:41.26 | Gnarfoz | Terminators aside! |
| 20:41.37 | Djane | removing clc's input data from your experience, but allowing it to use it. Yes. I agree with that. |
| 20:41.52 | Gnarfoz | I shall make that my goal for... some day. |
| 20:42.03 | Djane | Then you have a situation where you weigh those circumstances(which you're quite correct in stating clc cannot account for) |
| 20:42.06 | Gnarfoz | until then, I'll continue wasting reaction time because of decision making dissonance |
| 20:42.20 | Djane | The error in your comment is in this next statement though |
| 20:42.36 | Gnarfoz | is obviously superhuman with decision making time below the average! |
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| 20:42.45 | Djane | "where I just have to weigh those circumstances against clcinfo's suggestion. this works according to your claims." |
| 20:42.51 | Djane | It's not so much weigh against. |
| 20:42.56 | Djane | As decide via exclusion. |
| 20:42.57 | Gnarfoz | well, exclude either |
| 20:43.01 | Djane | Yup. |
| 20:43.08 | Gnarfoz | what else is weighing one thing against another? |
| 20:43.17 | Gnarfoz | a or b must win |
| 20:43.23 | Djane | Depends on contxt. |
| 20:43.27 | Gnarfoz | it's not like I'm flipping a coin |
| 20:43.28 | Djane | You can also consider relative worths. |
| 20:43.41 | Djane | (which is slightly different on mostly a semantic level) |
| 20:43.58 | Djane | then you're adding personal preference into your decision making process. |
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| 20:43.58 | Gnarfoz | weighing is considering "relative worth", is it not |
| 20:44.06 | Djane | Nah |
| 20:44.09 | Djane | Not inherently |
| 20:44.15 | Gnarfoz | it's not like I can prevent that, humans aren't objective |
| 20:44.22 | Djane | But it's a meaningless semantice aside in terms of this discussion. |
| 20:44.25 | Djane | -e |
| 20:44.47 | Djane | So yes, your statement is true enough. |
| 20:44.58 | Djane | The point I was making is that that weighing against can actually take a lot of time. |
| 20:45.06 | Gnarfoz | (also, while we're at semantics, I should point out that I'm not a native english speaker. I cannot exclude the possibility of me chosing the wrong words for something.^^) |
| 20:45.14 | Djane | That's good to know. |
| 20:45.33 | Djane | So assuming a)you could do everything clc could do, the 95% of the time there is no conflict of conclusion b)you were aware enough to do the right thing anyways |
| 20:45.44 | Djane | by eliminating the decisional dissonance, you actually increase your dps. |
| 20:45.58 | Djane | As you a)eliminate a source of situational paralysis and b)remove lag in those 5% of times. |
| 20:48.10 | Gnarfoz | hyptothetically, having taken in all you said by now, I could agree. however, I would posit that that "lag" (this would actually be "brain lag", wouldn't it?) would not be serious enough to make a difference in the end. |
| 20:48.16 | Gnarfoz | *hypothetically |
| 20:48.18 | Djane | nods |
| 20:48.27 | Djane | Where I state that lag is between 150 and 1500ms |
| 20:48.32 | Djane | (where the upper range does cause issues) |
| 20:48.49 | Gnarfoz | so basically, this is what separates good and bad players (in terms of reaction time) |
| 20:48.55 | Djane | Yes. |
| 20:49.03 | Djane | Examples would include things like |
| 20:49.15 | Djane | The healer who takes a second to move out of fire because they're not sure if they should finish the heal they're in or move. |
| 20:49.41 | Gnarfoz | omg omg FIRE and pyroblast proc and nearly out of mana and raid leader saying something on VoIP... WHAT DO I DOOOO *SPLERG* |
| 20:49.51 | Djane | Yeah |
| 20:50.04 | Gnarfoz | curiously, I seldomly have trouble handling those situations. |
| 20:50.06 | Djane | Most people, most of the time tend around the 150-200ms range |
| 20:50.16 | Djane | some people are better at it, and average around 75-100ms |
| 20:50.29 | Djane | But some people, some of the time spike past a second. |
| 20:50.49 | Djane | it's also something that's reduced by practise. |
| 20:50.56 | Judicata_ | I had one of those healing issues the other day |
| 20:51.06 | Djane | It's often why tanks are better at moving out of fire than any other role. |
| 20:51.09 | Judicata_ | Alt healer has half the haste of main healer....bad things happened |
| 20:51.15 | Djane | And why healers know much more about range than anyone else. |
| 20:51.57 | [-jon-] | I dont knwo why everyone tries to portray tanking as so difficult |
| 20:52.54 | Djane | Who portrays it as difficult? |
| 20:52.59 | Djane | False syllogism. |
| 20:53.19 | [-jon-] | the community in general |
| 20:53.20 | Djane | People see a lot of bad tanks and thus assume it has a higher skill threshold than other roles, which is most certainly untrue. |
| 20:53.56 | [-jon-] | its just that terrible tanks dont blend in |
| 20:54.26 | Djane | Bad tanks cause more issues than bad dps. |
| 20:54.26 | Djane | Bad healers cause more issues than bad dps but less than bad tanks. |
| 20:54.30 | Djane | Unless you're a priest, because. |
| 20:54.35 | Djane | Whilst everyone else can't heal stupid. |
| 20:54.36 | Djane | They can. |
| 20:54.38 | [-jon-] | a bad healer in 10 man can be just as bad |
| 20:54.41 | [-jon-] | if there are only 2 |
| 20:54.59 | [-jon-] | priest healing is fine. |
| 20:55.04 | Judicata_ | Two healers in a 10man can chalk some issues at time to bad luck as well. |
| 20:55.06 | Djane | You missed the joke. |
| 20:55.10 | Djane | Yes. |
| 20:55.12 | Djane | We 2 heal cho'gall. |
| 20:55.19 | [-jon-] | it sucks |
| 20:55.25 | Djane | And if both healers get MC'd just as the fire buff hits the main tank, JUST after the other tank kited the add. |
| 20:55.29 | Djane | Just as the adds are spawning. |
| 20:55.38 | Djane | 9/10 times you're ok. |
| 20:55.39 | Djane | But sometimes. |
| 20:55.42 | Djane | Very sometimes. |
| 20:55.42 | Djane | ow. |
| 20:55.51 | [-jon-] | the tank will dip but should survive |
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| 20:55.55 | Judicata_ | I have done cho'gall two man, but at times stuff is just annoying |
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| 20:56.12 | [-jon-] | we dont follow the add tank, its just sucky due to range |
| 20:56.18 | Djane | Gnarfoz, the key to decisional dissonance is to reduce as many external conclusional factors as possible. |
| 20:56.26 | Gnarfoz | I'm the tank, I get the healers out of the MC ^^ |
| 20:56.29 | [-jon-] | beacon the add tank and he is on his own |
| 20:56.30 | Djane | Yes <3 |
| 20:56.35 | [-jon-] | if he gets the 25% debuff, bubble. |
| 20:56.37 | Djane | Avengers shield > all. |
| 20:56.43 | Gnarfoz | indeed |
| 20:56.53 | Djane | I get about 80% of our interupts on that fight. |
| 20:56.55 | Gnarfoz | except at fight start, where there's a ghoul army and shaman wolves around |
| 20:57.05 | Djane | Ahh |
| 20:57.07 | Djane | We has no dk. |
| 20:57.23 | Gnarfoz | if I don't aim properly, I might even hit NO player at all, thanks to way too many targets. |
| 20:57.29 | Djane | Unf. |
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| 20:57.42 | [-jon-] | a good number of ours are broken by MC |
| 20:57.47 | [-jon-] | the ones that arent are usually got by the fire mage |
| 20:57.59 | Gnarfoz | broken by MC? you mean something else |
| 20:58.04 | [-jon-] | err |
| 20:58.05 | [-jon-] | AS |
| 20:58.10 | Gnarfoz | right |
| 20:58.40 | [-jon-] | i still hate that fight |
| 20:58.43 | [-jon-] | it is not fun to heal at all |
| 20:59.00 | Gnarfoz | *shrug*, there's worse stuff |
| 20:59.10 | [-jon-] | nef sucks |
| 20:59.14 | Gnarfoz | for example |
| 20:59.18 | [-jon-] | i dont like healing |
| 20:59.27 | [-jon-] | i heard 25 mans are a lot more fun though |
| 21:00.39 | [-jon-] | healing in 10m is not competitive enough for me |
| 21:00.41 | Djane | Entirely personal. |
| 21:00.44 | Djane | "competetive" |
| 21:00.47 | Djane | It is what you make it. |
| 21:01.15 | Djane | Healing is the wrong role if you want competition. |
| 21:01.17 | Zicon | Hrm. If you think healing is a competitive sport, you may be doing it wrong... |
| 21:01.22 | Djane | Yes <3 |
| 21:01.24 | [-jon-] | thats why I dont like it |
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| 21:02.04 | [-jon-] | but i am forced into it still |
| 21:02.22 | Judicata_ | Wahooo!!!! There was a murder in my jurisdiction! |
| 21:02.40 | Izzmo | what? |
| 21:03.01 | Judicata_ | Looks like I get to work on a murder prosecution! |
| 21:03.10 | Djane | Yay for you! |
| 21:03.11 | Djane | I think... |
| 21:03.16 | [-jon-] | if you catch them |
| 21:03.24 | Djane | (sidenote: That's a pretty creepy thing to say :P) |
| 21:03.26 | Judicata_ | He is caught |
| 21:03.37 | Judicata_ | It's in a rural area, there are no secrets there |
| 21:03.45 | Izzmo | lol, riiight |
| 21:03.49 | Judicata_ | ^ Djane....my career depends on big cases, so it's good for me. |
| 21:03.50 | Izzmo | they are all aliens, you know? |
| 21:04.01 | Judicata_ | all aliens? |
| 21:04.44 | Izzmo | All of them. |
| 21:05.11 | Judicata_ | Impersonal pronouns do no good here, who are 'them' |
| 21:06.03 | Gnarfoz | THEY are aliens |
| 21:06.16 | Gnarfoz | using impersonal pronouns is part of the deal here. |
| 21:06.43 | Judicata_ | Ohhhh okay. Makes 'them' sound much more sinister forsure. |
| 21:07.43 | Gnarfoz | and you could be one of them! |
| 21:07.52 | Gnarfoz | (for just 3.99.) |
| 21:08.26 | Judicata_ | I'm so glad my shaman isn't an alien any more |
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| 21:52.51 | [-jon-] | has anyone tried out the PTR? |
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| 22:15.56 | [-jon-] | so mining is going to suck next patch |
| 22:15.59 | [-jon-] | ore prices are going to fucking tank |
| 22:16.10 | Ac-town | why? |
| 22:16.26 | [-jon-] | gemsw ill only vendor for 75s |
| 22:16.32 | [-jon-] | which is retarded |
| 22:16.37 | Ac-town | wasn't in the patch notes |
| 22:16.41 | Ac-town | it was data-mined |
| 22:16.47 | Ac-town | so it may not happen in 4.1 |
| 22:16.51 | [-jon-] | I bet it will |
| 22:16.56 | Ac-town | I could see it |
| 22:16.59 | Ac-town | but its not offical |
| 22:17.04 | Djane | which ore prices? |
| 22:17.09 | [-jon-] | elementium and obsidium |
| 22:17.15 | Djane | Ahh, I don't care then. |
| 22:17.18 | Djane | I only stock up on pyrite. |
| 22:17.23 | [-jon-] | pyrite might too |
| 22:17.24 | Ac-town | I have been thinking about maxing JC on my pally |
| 22:17.30 | BlackNet | pyrites going to crash as well |
| 22:17.30 | Ac-town | 85 to 500 |
| 22:17.32 | Djane | Doubt it. |
| 22:17.35 | Ac-town | unfun |
| 22:17.36 | [-jon-] | after 4.1 i might start stocking up on pyrite |
| 22:17.38 | BlackNet | transmuting |
| 22:17.39 | Djane | Pyrites tied to other things. |
| 22:17.46 | [-jon-] | pyrite will go down. |
| 22:17.46 | Djane | and is also limited in supply. |
| 22:18.04 | [-jon-] | elementium will be worthless |
| 22:18.39 | Djane | also |
| 22:18.52 | Djane | gem vendor price doesn't necessitate price crashes. |
| 22:19.02 | Djane | All it means is you won't have a floating point. |
| 22:19.30 | [-jon-] | ore prices bottomed out at around 35-40g a stack |
| 22:19.34 | [-jon-] | because you can vendor the gems for that much |
| 22:19.38 | Djane | Yes, floating point. |
| 22:19.55 | [-jon-] | I bet they will at least be half of current prices |
| 22:20.00 | [-jon-] | half or below |
| 22:20.06 | BlackNet | and think what ore prices were when cata rolled out |
| 22:20.24 | [-jon-] | can you not cut perfect gems when youre doing your jc daily? |
| 22:20.34 | [-jon-] | I used to hear people bitching about cutting perfect ones, but i have never |
| 22:20.37 | Djane | You can no longer cut perfect solid/timeless/the other one. |
| 22:20.44 | Djane | It was changed. |
| 22:21.16 | BlackNet | which upcoming patch will give everyone MVP awards? :) |
| 22:21.17 | BlackNet | ducks |
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| 23:35.34 | *** join/#wowhead rannmann (~SmurfGutz@209-193-57-225-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net) |
| 23:44.44 | *** join/#wowhead Interest (~chatzilla@c-66-31-30-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 23:45.15 | Interest | http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2246-Patch-4.1-Archaeology-Items-4.1-PTR-Notes-Update-Blue-Posts-Artwork-Daily-Blink |
| 23:45.23 | Interest | blog on this may be needed for wowhead =D |
| 23:50.27 | *** join/#wowhead Jamash (~Jamash@99-92-174-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
