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| 00:53.32 | herlo | ~comcast++ |
| 00:53.44 | herlo | waits for a reaction to this by fugue88 |
| 00:53.56 | herlo | ~karma comcast |
| 00:53.56 | infobot | comcast has karma of -165 |
| 00:56.11 | herlo | gah! |
| 01:02.16 | herlo | k, maybe NetworkManager will be consistent |
| 01:09.26 | herlo | nope, just dropped |
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| 02:46.55 | mindjuju | ~apb herlo |
| 02:46.55 | infobot | ACTION summons Leland to spray mace at herlo |
| 02:47.31 | herlo | mindjuju: hi |
| 02:47.45 | herlo | I was reminded that you didn't ping me the other night |
| 02:48.34 | mindjuju | do you have time now to talk |
| 02:48.36 | mindjuju | ? |
| 02:49.00 | herlo | not now, but in maybe 20 minutes |
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| 03:12.48 | herlo | mindjuju: k, anytime |
| 03:46.30 | herlo | no mindjuju I guess |
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| 17:25.43 | harleypig | Hmmm ... I think I need to re-examine tor ... |
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| 18:19.23 | shalkie | herlo: Sure, blame NetworkManager instead of ComCast. How much did they pay you for this new found ComCast love? |
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| 18:39.11 | josephpagoda | ??? |
| 18:41.56 | shalkie | josephpagoda: Sorry, conversation from yesterday. Shalkies logs runs for days apparently in this room. |
| 18:42.18 | josephpagoda | ah |
| 18:42.22 | herlo | shalkie: I sitll plan to -- them again, this was just *one* thing they did right |
| 18:42.34 | herlo | josephpagoda: comcast started implementing dnssec in 2010 |
| 18:42.56 | shalkie | What about the, experimental at least, implementation of IPv6? |
| 18:43.06 | herlo | they inserted a cheesy dns entry into my resolver and I wasn't sure why, which is how I discovered it |
| 18:43.11 | herlo | shalkie: that's related somewhat |
| 18:43.33 | herlo | shalkie: it seems they are part of the same project |
| 18:43.40 | shalkie | Interesting... |
| 18:44.01 | herlo | shalkie: yeah, so they got a ++ for that, but NM was giving me fits yesterday |
| 18:44.32 | herlo | I downgraded it because I discovered that there was no /etc/init.d/NetworkManager script anymore |
| 18:44.46 | herlo | went into #fedora to ask why and discovered that systemd changes that as well |
| 18:45.08 | herlo | which is fine, just wish there was a script that said 'deprecated, please use ... instead' |
| 18:45.26 | fugue88 | systemd is fascist. |
| 18:45.29 | fugue88 | :P |
| 18:45.43 | fugue88 | Give my rc scripts, or give me death! |
| 18:45.46 | fugue88 | s/my/me/ |
| 18:45.51 | herlo | lol |
| 18:45.58 | herlo | fugue88: I actually really like systemd |
| 18:46.08 | herlo | too bad ubuntu will never use it and instead use their broken upstart |
| 18:46.09 | fugue88 | Yeah, it and upstart both sound really cool. |
| 18:46.13 | fugue88 | heh |
| 18:46.50 | Nafai | what's broken about upstart? |
| 18:47.53 | herlo | fugue88: in his systemd article, http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html |
| 18:48.00 | herlo | he explains why upstart is doomed |
| 18:48.15 | herlo | Nafai: it's architecture is problematic |
| 18:48.43 | herlo | Nafai: see the article I just pointed fugue88 to above ^^ :) |
| 18:49.20 | herlo | I don't mean to say that upstart sucks or anything. I like it too, it definitely has potential, just that I think systemd is the future. I especially feel that way after reading that article |
| 18:50.03 | Nafai | I tend to take anything Lennart has written with a huge grain of salty |
| 18:50.05 | Nafai | salt |
| 18:50.11 | herlo | Lennart Poettering wrote systemd. He's also the infamous author of pulseaudio, which nobody likes but works better than any other sound system |
| 18:50.29 | Nafai | It's taken a long time for PulseAudio to become viable |
| 18:50.34 | herlo | Nafai: yeah, except when you realize how good of a programmer he is |
| 18:50.57 | herlo | Nafai: yeah, pulse took a long time because of the broken sound architecture underneath and poor packaging by unnamed distros... |
| 18:51.36 | Nafai | ahem, I imagine the only reason it was packaged "properly" by other distros was the developer happened to work for them |
| 18:51.37 | fugue88 | herlo: PulseAudio has plenty of crashes due to its own code, as well. |
| 18:51.38 | Nafai | :) |
| 18:51.43 | herlo | most of the underlying sound archictecture is fixed these days thanks to alsa and pulse, but it got a bad name due to others mishandling it and frustration |
| 18:52.08 | herlo | fugue88: true, but it's like any other system in linux, experimental when you implement it to work out those issues. |
| 18:52.22 | fugue88 | The only benefit I as a user have ever seen from PA is per-application volume. |
| 18:52.34 | herlo | Nafai: nope, Lennart actually went and helped althernate distributions fix their errors |
| 18:53.03 | herlo | fugue88: well, it works with many different sound systems, oss, esound, alsa. Only Jack can do as well from what I have seen. |
| 18:53.20 | Nafai | Once Canonical hired TheMuso to work full time and a large part of his duties were sound, they were fixed |
| 18:53.51 | herlo | Nafai: didn't know that, cool. I know that lennart went over and helped ubuntu fix their packaging issues and it fixed a ton too |
| 18:54.14 | Nafai | People are just quick to point fingers to their non-favorite distros (myself included) without knowing the people behind them, the resources available, etc |
| 18:54.14 | herlo | but pulse isn't an init system. I'd say it is actually more complex |
| 18:54.16 | fugue88 | herlo: I had alsa+dmix for the longest time, still do on a couple of systems, and *never* had problems with it. |
| 18:54.23 | fugue88 | PA still gives occasional problems on one of those systems when booted to a different distro. |
| 18:54.37 | herlo | fugue88: you should file bugs :) |
| 18:54.41 | fugue88 | Agree, PA more complex. |
| 18:54.48 | fugue88 | herlo: The bugs are already there. |
| 18:54.56 | herlo | fugue88: you +1d them right? |
| 18:54.57 | fugue88 | Some of them for years. |
| 18:55.09 | fugue88 | herlo: Nope. |
| 18:55.19 | herlo | I'm sure they'll get squashed...if you help remind the authors they are there |
| 18:55.27 | herlo | it'll probably go faster that way |
| 18:55.31 | fugue88 | After a bug has so many affected's, one more doesn't really help. |
| 18:55.42 | fugue88 | And others complain continuously. |
| 18:55.53 | fugue88 | My voice really would not contribute. |
| 18:55.54 | herlo | that's life sometimes |
| 18:55.58 | fugue88 | Yep. |
| 18:56.06 | fugue88 | Anyway, here's my beef with systemd. |
| 18:56.07 | Nafai | my big concern is in open source that there are a lot of "old boy's clubs" and people outside their ciricles aren't listened to |
| 18:56.09 | herlo | fugue88: do you feel that way about the political system too :) |
| 18:56.17 | fugue88 | herlo: heh, no. |
| 18:56.19 | herlo | kids |
| 18:56.36 | herlo | Nafai: sure, as with any other industry. |
| 18:56.47 | fugue88 | herlo: Then again, I'm not part of an overwhelmingly voiciferous part of the politcal population. |
| 18:56.54 | fugue88 | ;) |
| 18:57.07 | fugue88 | k, systemd beef: |
| 18:57.25 | fugue88 | I think it's design to auto start services on first access by watching sockets, pipes, files, &c, is brilliant. |
| 18:57.27 | herlo | fugue88: me either. In fact I prefer to listen to what rhetoric I'me exposed by my choosing and make my own decisions about who's right and wrong. |
| 18:58.15 | fugue88 | But then, it tries to pull way too much, imo, of other functionality under its umbrella, like setting priority, uid/gid, etc, that can already be done be existing utilities, as the admin sees fit. |
| 18:58.31 | fugue88 | herlo: Mind rewording that last statement? I don't understand it. |
| 18:58.52 | herlo | fugue88: oh, I was just saying that I don't enjoy being caught in flame wars in #utah |
| 18:58.59 | herlo | about politics |
| 18:59.03 | fugue88 | heh |
| 18:59.25 | herlo | more or less, those sorts of SHOUTING there and on facebook and other places my so-called friends like to rant isn't my idea of fun |
| 18:59.53 | fugue88 | It gives some (too many) people their "democracy fix". |
| 19:00.12 | fugue88 | Then they can go back to tv and not think about it until the next flame a week later. |
| 19:00.22 | fugue88 | :) |
| 19:00.26 | fugue88 | Anyway... |
| 19:00.29 | fugue88 | turns back to his tv |
| 19:00.30 | Nafai | I get caught up in the political stuff too much |
| 19:00.32 | fugue88 | j/k |
| 19:00.59 | fugue88 | herlo: So, what do *you* think about systemd taking on all that other stuff, like uid/gid, priority, etc. |
| 19:01.00 | Nafai | Mainly because it feels like the vociferous ones seem to ignore my point of view and their are dogmatically absolutely correct |
| 19:01.03 | fugue88 | ? |
| 19:01.19 | fugue88 | (that ? was for herlo) |
| 19:01.40 | Nafai | s/their/they/ |
| 19:02.02 | fugue88 | Nafai: And your thoughts on systemd are welcome too. |
| 19:02.15 | fugue88 | isn't trying to start a flame, just get some better-informed opinions |
| 19:02.39 | herlo | Nafai: sure |
| 19:03.03 | Nafai | fugue88: I haven't delved deep enough into it to have an informed opinion |
| 19:03.13 | Nafai | So all I can say is that it originated from RH so it must be bad. :) |
| 19:03.17 | herlo | fugue88: I think there are definite debates on how much an init system should take. I kind of like the convenience of having it all in one tool. |
| 19:04.00 | herlo | but I can see the logic of wanting it in both places. I've not read much about all of those controls so I'll have to do a bit more reading. Was actually going to spend a bit of time reading his 'systemd for administrators' today |
| 19:04.09 | fugue88 | Ah, cool. |
| 19:04.42 | herlo | just so many cool things to use and play with these days, plus all the normal work and then there's goose and fpaste and silver and all of my other little projects floating around in my head :) |
| 19:04.43 | fugue88 | Nafai: You are absolutely correct, you dogmatic vociferous commentator, you. :) |
| 19:05.24 | herlo | lol |
| 19:06.21 | herlo | fugue88: overall, I think I like the work that Lennart does. Even with the debate over PA and the alternates for init systems, I really like his code, ideas and planning. |
| 19:07.50 | herlo | I can say that there are many people I admire who are very similar in this way. I think the biggest contribution Ubuntu has made to free software code is Upstart. I do think there are some problems with it and would like to see either a rearchitecting or adoption of systemd or something that melds the two in the future. It's definitely a fun time to be a linux system administrator for sure. |
| 19:09.31 | fugue88 | Yeah, good ideas in both, to be sure. |
| 19:10.56 | herlo | Lately, I've been thinkgin about how amazing this world is with technology and what it would be like without it all. How far we have come and what conveniences we have because people came up with these awesome ideas! |
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