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| 14:21.44 | jlp_znc | my condensed "resume" is five pages, my full resume is seven pages. perhaps that is why I have better luck going through recruiters. |
| 14:22.17 | jlp_znc | I have written cover letters before, but I generally let the recruiters take care of introducing me and talking me up. |
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| 15:19.44 | spangborn | Most places ignore resumes that are over 2pg |
| 15:19.49 | spangborn | It's a waste of time |
| 17:12.06 | spangborn | lol another creative cloud password dump |
| 17:12.15 | spangborn | oh maybe not passwords |
| 17:12.21 | spangborn | but a bunch of user data at least |
| 17:54.42 | youtah | ~trump ignores spangborns resume |
| 17:54.42 | infobot | ACTION fires ignores spangborns resume |
| 17:54.47 | youtah | wait |
| 17:54.48 | youtah | no |
| 17:55.03 | youtah | saw that going differently in my head |
| 17:55.11 | youtah | ~trump spangborn's resume |
| 17:55.11 | infobot | ACTION sends spangborn's resume down an escalator |
| 17:55.15 | youtah | lol |
| 18:01.55 | jfindlay | spangborn: most of the places you have interviewed at, I'm sure |
| 18:02.04 | jfindlay | my experience has been the opposite |
| 18:02.07 | spangborn | I interview lots of people here |
| 18:02.22 | spangborn | and if it's over a page, you get scrutinized heavily as just trying to waste time |
| 18:15.43 | romanovic | same here, spangborn. we got a 7 page resume a couple of months ago. didn't read past page 2 |
| 18:19.09 | romanovic | 2 pages is already suspect. when we get resumes with more than that, I always wonder why candidates worry that if they omit a long list of employers, we'll judge their value to be less. The most attractive and most experienced candidates that have come in to interview have had very understated resumes |
| 18:19.45 | spangborn | Yep. |
| 18:20.55 | romanovic | they claim a certain number of years of experience, but they only briefly summarize their key employment experiences. they give a conservative skillset that includes their specialties without including every buzzword. And it always fits on 1 page. |
| 18:21.25 | jfindlay | there are other people out there in the world that don't expect 1 page resumes |
| 18:23.36 | jfindlay | I am surprised at your unwillingness to posit a case for a resume not crammed into an advertising document form factor, or for anyone that would not want that |
| 18:23.59 | romanovic | They treat the interviewers like we're not stupid. If we want to check out more of their code or experience, the github and linkedin urls are available. otherwise they just come in confident that they _are_ the valuable candidate we are looking for, and not the candidate interested in documenting every facet of their career. |
| 18:24.58 | spangborn | It's a resume, not an autobiography |
| 18:24.59 | romanovic | jfindlay: totally. there are plenty of situations where a CV is more desirable, where a certain level of due diligence needs to be done beyond basic experience/skills check. |
| 18:26.04 | romanovic | but that's something out of the ordinary in the software industry for those of us not C-level, IME. |
| 18:26.54 | jfindlay | romanovic: I have had poor reception where I am with a marketing resume because everyone wants the CV format |
| 18:33.44 | romanovic | interesting. I have no experience with marketing resumes or interviews, but I can see how that could be different. with developers, it's easier to do a skills check within the context of an interview in addition to looking at their documented work history. with marketing, it makes sense that thorough documentation of real world successes would be more valuable |
| 18:36.06 | jfindlay | by 'marketing resume' I mean the single page format, which really doesn't give you much space to discuss all of the relevant data |
| 18:36.21 | jfindlay | basically, you're reducing your career to a marketing document |
| 18:36.42 | jfindlay | simple bullet points, manipulative text, glitzy fonts, etc. |
| 18:39.44 | romanovic | ah I misunderstood. |
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| 18:47.53 | jfindlay | everyone has a different idea of what a resume is supposed to look like, I think |
| 18:48.18 | jfindlay | lately I have been frustrated with the single page model |
| 18:48.20 | romanovic | to be clear, I'd consider excessive bullet points, corporate speak, and fancy fonts to be the opposite of an understated resume, and I'd likely set them on the back burner along with the 7 page resumes. I feel like the effective resume makes some key qualification claims up front, lets them speak for themselves, and leaves an invitation to seek out more information if the interviewer honestly wants comprehensive work |
| 18:48.20 | romanovic | documentation. this is only specific to my experience with tech resumes |
| 18:48.23 | romanovic | yeah, I think you are right |
| 18:49.54 | jfindlay | amazon, microsoft, and every other tech company in Seattle other than perhaps FB and goog want you to give them a 'machine-readable' CV |
| 18:51.39 | spangborn | That's called LinkedIn |
| 18:52.27 | jfindlay | and everyone I've talked to expects that you're supposed to phrase your work history with demonstrable quantification and impact |
| 18:52.44 | jfindlay | which is difficult to do in a one-line bullet |
| 19:05.33 | jfindlay | in the end, though, a resume is almost useless, because getting a job depends on how good the recruiter is and how good the people relationships are between you, the hiring manager/team, and the recruiter, if necessary |
| 19:05.46 | jfindlay | I suppose it may be different in other places |
| 19:14.02 | youtah | weather.comâs server IP address could not be found |
| 19:14.26 | spangborn | Doesnât exist |
| 19:14.30 | spangborn | Weather isnât real |
| 19:14.33 | youtah | ping: weather.com: Name or service not known |
| 19:14.34 | spangborn | Nothing is real |
| 19:14.37 | spangborn | Birds are spies |
| 19:14.42 | spangborn | Robot spies |
| 19:16.38 | youtah | sudo apt install weather.com'sipaddress |
| 19:17.48 | youtah | ~trump weather.comsdns |
| 19:17.48 | infobot | ACTION builds a wall at weather.comsdns's expense |
| 19:25.07 | jlp_znc | I've been thinking of a totally different resume format... just a few paragraphs of text. no real formatting or structure other than that. Who I am, what I have done, what I want to do. |
| 19:26.12 | jlp_znc | I'm thinking something like this: https://www.liveabout.com/funny-college-application-essay-4059249 |
| 21:13.40 | jfindlay | jlp_znc: I tried to format my resume as a timeline once |
| 21:15.14 | jfindlay | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:37.34 | jlp_znc | why the heck were you doing fortran in the 2009-2012 time frame? |
| 21:39.32 | jlp_znc | and what fortran do people use these days? I originally learned Fortran 4, and then Fortran 77... I heard there was something like Fortran 90 at one point... is there anything more modern than that? |
| 22:14.17 | spangborn | Honestly in tech, why is anything but the last 5ish years relevant? |
| 22:14.23 | spangborn | With everything changing so quickly |
| 22:16.17 | jlp_znc | I dunno... a lot of what I learned over the last 30+ years contributes to how I solve problems today. I bill myself as a "senior" level engineer (little "e"... I do not have an engineering degree). Without knowing how I got where I am, are you willing to take my word for where I am? |
| 22:16.57 | jlp_znc | I don't want to take the first hour of the interview to recap how I got here. |
| 22:17.39 | spangborn | But is how you got here really relevant if you prove you can do the job? |
| 22:17.40 | jlp_znc | (I've had interviews where that happened because the interviewer never bothered to look at my resume and started with the question "what have you done in your career so far?") |
| 22:17.47 | spangborn | I think thatâs my point |
| 22:17.57 | jlp_znc | ahh, but you can't prove you can do the job until you actually do the job, can you? |
| 22:18.39 | spangborn | Fair, but you can test their knowledge of it, which is generally what Iâve found to happen in tech interviews |
| 22:19.01 | jlp_znc | I've been through a lot of interview cycles over the past several years. Some of them have been intense, with panel interviews and with multiple modules. I've also had interviews where the hiring manager talks to me for an hour and then offers me the job. |
| 22:19.30 | jlp_znc | Out of the two, the latter have been jobs that I've stayed at longer and made bigger contributions. |
| 22:20.12 | spangborn | Interesting |
| 22:20.14 | jlp_znc | when I do a tech interview, for example, I try to avoid questions like "what command do you use to deploy X into a kubernetes environment?" |
| 22:20.27 | jlp_znc | I'd rather get a feel for how the candidate thinks about a problem. |
| 22:21.01 | spangborn | Precisely |
| 22:21.02 | jlp_znc | I want to know how they think. How they solve a problem. When they give up and ask for help. |
| 22:21.21 | spangborn | I think itâs more of âability to do the jobâ than âknows exactly how to do the jobâ |
| 22:21.25 | jlp_znc | I want to know what kinds of questions they ask when I give them a vague problem description. |
| 22:21.55 | jfindlay | jlp_znc: scientific HPC |
| 22:22.07 | jlp_znc | they still use fortran for that? |
| 22:22.22 | jfindlay | it's still around, I'm sure |
| 22:22.37 | jlp_znc | so what's the latest fortran (or was when you were working with it)? |
| 22:22.49 | jfindlay | fortran has been modernized somewhat |
| 22:23.01 | jfindlay | f95 |
| 22:23.10 | jfindlay | was the latest standard I remember working with |
| 22:23.46 | jlp_znc | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran |
| 22:23.52 | jlp_znc | apparently they are up to Fortran 2018 now |
| 22:24.07 | jfindlay | jlp_znc: I also interviewed for Cray recenlty |
| 22:24.17 | jlp_znc | Cray is still around? |
| 22:24.18 | jfindlay | just before they got bought by HPE |
| 22:24.25 | jlp_znc | ah |
| 22:24.34 | jfindlay | like, a few months ago |
| 22:24.36 | jlp_znc | HPE bought SGI, too, didn't they? |
| 22:25.05 | jfindlay | I'm sure it's a grab bag of formerly proud engineering firms |
| 22:26.52 | jlp_znc | yep, HPE bought SGI in november 2016 (according to the font of all knowledge) |
| 22:30.33 | jlp_znc | huh, evans and sutherland now builds planetariums |