| 00:20.10 | *** join/#utah infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 00:20.10 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds |
| 00:20.10 | *** mode/#utah [+o infobot] by ChanServ |
| 02:22.00 | *** join/#utah aeryndunham (~aeryndunh@170.250.131.39) |
| 05:07.01 | jfindlay | gtmanfred: powershell is OK, but still has some rough bits |
| 05:07.34 | jfindlay | not quite usable as a shell, but the concept is really interesting, and overall executed well |
| 05:07.50 | jfindlay | also, welcome to SLC |
| 05:09.14 | jfindlay | that is, I tried to use it as my primary shell for a while, but it didn't last longer than a day |
| 05:10.56 | jfindlay | ~napoleon eightyeight |
| 05:10.56 | infobot | ACTION throws eightyeight's favorite Masters of the Universe action figure out the bus window attached to a fishing line |
| 05:11.08 | jfindlay | ~nacho |
| 05:11.08 | infobot | NACHOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo....! |
| 05:11.16 | jfindlay | ~pondering |
| 05:11.16 | infobot | Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... ooh, it's all too much for me. |
| 05:13.31 | jfindlay | I think the most telling thing about PS as a shell is that I've never seen (in my limited experience) any windows user prefer it over cmd when a shell was needed |
| 05:13.55 | jfindlay | which says a plethora, because, come on, cmd? |
| 05:27.28 | *** join/#utah fadein (~Erik@c-24-10-167-68.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 11:17.10 | *** join/#utah RuShan (~RuShan@106.sub-174-208-6.myvzw.com) |
| 13:33.48 | *** join/#utah BitBandit (~BitBandit@50-198-187-221-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 13:47.53 | beelzebob | has anyone used/heard of dnscontrol? http://blog.serverfault.com/2017/04/11/introducing-dnscontrol-dns-as-code-has-arrived/ |
| 13:48.23 | beelzebob | it looks super slick |
| 13:49.23 | beelzebob | but is written in go, and the namecheap provider (which is the provider I need) is only partially implemented. |
| 13:50.08 | beelzebob | If someone has a similar alternative, I'm willing to be talked down from the ledge of learning enough go to implement it |
| 14:53.30 | *** join/#utah nage (~nathan.ge@unaffiliated/nage) |
| 15:07.09 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~bgerber@service.zenez.com) |
| 15:10.03 | unum | I use powerdns with a postgres backend |
| 15:10.10 | unum | it works great with namecheap :) |
| 15:11.52 | unum | well I just point them to my vps when I buy a domain |
| 15:32.43 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@unaffiliated/keldwud) |
| 15:32.51 | keldwud | good morning! |
| 15:48.34 | unum | good morning!!! |
| 15:48.36 | unum | https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/17/donald-trump-temporary-worker-h1b-visa-executive-order |
| 15:48.41 | unum | I didn't think he'd actually do it |
| 15:49.17 | keldwud | anybody have any experience with Identrust as an employer? |
| 15:51.56 | keldwud | what I don't get about this whole rejection of people in our workforce is that I was under the impression that the larger your labor capital, the better it is for everyone |
| 16:01.53 | keldwud | but I might just be misunderstanding economics |
| 16:02.47 | keldwud | and not only that, but if you increase your labor capital, don't you also increase the consumption of goods? |
| 16:10.25 | TodPunk | unum: âBut I think during the campaign the president addressed this at length. Iâm frankly surprised that you didnât brief yourself before coming here ... I donât know if youâre asking because you donât know or youâre pretending you donât know.â |
| 16:10.36 | TodPunk | I adore that official |
| 16:12.45 | TodPunk | keldwud: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/IdenTrust-Reviews-E30644.htm |
| 16:16.18 | keldwud | well I know there's glass door :-p |
| 16:16.24 | keldwud | I was looking for first-hand information :) |
| 16:21.42 | unum | keldwud: depends on the amount of resources that you have aviliable |
| 16:22.01 | unum | there are those who argue that aren't enough resources for everyone in the world to have the average american life style |
| 16:22.29 | unum | so if you try and give everyone that opportunity, we'll all end up with lower life styles |
| 16:23.09 | unum | of course if you look at these issues from a moral lense rather than a national economic lense, you come up with very different answers |
| 16:23.40 | frostyfrog | jfindlay: re: PowerShell Well, as far as that goes... <Win+r>cmd<enter> Not sure if the same could be said about PS. |
| 16:24.01 | frostyfrog | Morning all |
| 16:25.12 | keldwud | unum: I'm okay with reducing my lifestyle so that people can have a better one. I mean, we do that with our children and significant others, don't we? |
| 16:25.44 | keldwud | but I'm really not sure I believe that increasing labor capitol reduces the number of resources available |
| 16:25.54 | keldwud | s/capitol/capital |
| 16:28.12 | TodPunk | the morality lens changes when harsh realities come into play |
| 16:29.47 | TodPunk | We have the luxury of pontificating about what the moral thing to do is, but life doesn't ever really cooperate with that. That's ignoring human behavior trends, too. |
| 16:30.40 | TodPunk | I see an increasing number of attempts by people on the internet to fight that tide, and it's hilarious. "Please use the group's search function before posting a question." I'm sure that will work. |
| 16:31.24 | keldwud | wait, one of those sentences is not like the others |
| 16:31.32 | unum | increasing labor doesn't reduce the number of resource available, it spreads them out |
| 16:32.05 | TodPunk | it can do both |
| 16:32.12 | TodPunk | waste is a thing |
| 16:32.19 | unum | TodPunk: true |
| 16:32.38 | TodPunk | sometimes that's avoidable, sometimes you will never stop it |
| 16:32.49 | TodPunk | and anywhere between |
| 16:33.15 | unum | there was a washington post article a while back that argued the defining trait of the two parties would soon be weather you first saw your self a citizen of your country or world |
| 16:34.16 | TodPunk | The leaders being those that consider themselves to be a leader of the country or the world, I presume |
| 16:34.33 | unum | the fact that you compared sharing with someone from an other country to sharing with your family members, marks you as a liberal :) |
| 16:35.17 | keldwud | hey now |
| 16:35.24 | keldwud | some people use that as a dirty word! |
| 16:35.28 | keldwud | you callin me names? :) |
| 16:35.37 | unum | :) |
| 16:35.39 | frostyfrog | Wait, what? |
| 16:35.58 | TodPunk | I can see the world/nation viewpoint, though I don't see a lot of utility to it. That's more ignorant of your average voter's motivations and more a description of how PR is working to try to speak to them. |
| 16:35.59 | frostyfrog | Taking care of your family makes you a liberal? Whaaat? o.o |
| 16:36.17 | frostyfrog | oh, wait |
| 16:36.18 | keldwud | but it's true. I remember reading the fundamental difference between 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that conservatives view their unit as more immediate and necessary than any of those outside of their unit |
| 16:36.18 | frostyfrog | nvm |
| 16:36.26 | TodPunk | no, comparing sharing with other countries to sharing with family |
| 16:36.28 | frostyfrog | comparing it does. got it |
| 16:36.40 | unum | to put it really locally |
| 16:36.50 | keldwud | frostyfrog: no, me saying that I don't mind sharing my resources with people who aren't part of my "unit" because my "unit" is the whole population of earth |
| 16:37.00 | unum | recently the county/state looked at putting a homeless shelter in my city |
| 16:37.47 | unum | I saw no reason that they shouldn't consider it, my neighbors organized to make sure leaders knew they were opposed to it |
| 16:37.56 | keldwud | I mean, the homeless imo are everyone's problem. not just someone else's |
| 16:38.01 | unum | because of how it would negatively impact their lives |
| 16:38.08 | unum | keldwud: there you go again |
| 16:38.11 | keldwud | lol |
| 16:38.19 | keldwud | "not in MY backyard!" |
| 16:38.52 | keldwud | I mean, eventually *somebody* has to take responsibility for stuff that nobody else wants to take responsibility for |
| 16:39.31 | keldwud | that's like my kid saying "well I didn't use those dishes or make those messes, so I'm not going to clean them up" |
| 16:39.34 | keldwud | we have to hold ourselves accountable even if it might be uncomfortable or take some of our resources |
| 16:39.51 | keldwud | because in the end it benefits everyone long term |
| 16:40.17 | unum | keldwud: I like your my unit definition |
| 16:40.39 | keldwud | yeah, I chose the phrase "my unit" because it has fewer political connotations |
| 16:40.54 | keldwud | versus tribe or nation or state or country or ethnic group, etc |
| 16:41.04 | unum | I think I'm going to steal that for a blog post |
| 16:41.05 | keldwud | because we all do define our units differntly |
| 16:41.12 | unum | maybe just a facebook post |
| 16:41.29 | keldwud | some people define it as themselves, others define it as their families, others their churches, and so on |
| 16:41.35 | unum | ya |
| 16:41.49 | unum | the broader you define it the more liberal you are |
| 16:42.11 | keldwud | I think long term, though, the narrower your unit, the greater the risk of conflict and lack of resources |
| 16:42.37 | keldwud | which is fine if you can justify that those outside of your unit don't deserve resources and have earned your conflict |
| 16:42.57 | keldwud | but I don't personally see a moral way of justifying that |
| 16:43.08 | keldwud | because it will always be completely arbitrary |
| 16:43.19 | keldwud | and quit calling me names, unum! :) |
| 16:47.25 | manithree | I think you're assigning the most demeaning motives you can to people who disagree with you. |
| 16:47.58 | romanovic | I think assuming more social responsibility is not the same as broadening your unit boundaries and definition to include more of your fellow humans, though. I definitely define my personal "unit" as my family - I'm willing to sacrifice all of my time and resources and have everything in common with them, but this arrangement does not scale, at all |
| 16:49.18 | romanovic | I want to be socially responsible for all of my fellow humans, though, and I think that will take the form of empowering them at the lowest, most local level to improve their own lives and solve their own problems |
| 16:50.33 | keldwud | yeah, I'm probably being a bit idealistic when viewing it this way. I agree it has some scaling challenges |
| 16:50.35 | romanovic | some won't be able to solve their own problems, and I'm happy to contribute as a member of a modern society to safety nets for those people |
| 16:50.40 | unum | manithree: I'm not sure I follow what you mean |
| 16:50.48 | manithree | unum: figures |
| 16:51.26 | unum | manithree: made a lot of statements, I don't which one you are referring to |
| 16:51.31 | unum | manithree: I made a lot of statements, I don't which one you are referring to |
| 16:55.15 | manithree | is NOT a conservative, but ... |
| 16:55.23 | manithree | It is fun to watch progressives in their echo chambers congratulating themselves for being so much smarter and compassionate than everybody else while ignoring the actual differences |
| 16:56.31 | unum | manithree: this came about from specific policy discussion |
| 16:56.39 | manithree | I read that |
| 16:56.40 | unum | ok may be two |
| 16:56.57 | unum | yes I broaden it by referencing the washington post article |
| 16:56.59 | TodPunk | manithree's statement is about your characterization of those that were opposed to said policy |
| 16:57.12 | manithree | And your definition of liberal |
| 16:57.14 | TodPunk | you chose "how it would negatively impact their lives" |
| 16:57.27 | unum | the homeless shelter policy then? |
| 16:57.28 | TodPunk | I could have just as accurately said "because they felt it was a poor choice" |
| 16:57.45 | TodPunk | I picked that one |
| 16:57.47 | unum | I was referring to spefic neighbors and facebook posts they made |
| 16:57.49 | TodPunk | I don't know about manithree |
| 16:58.26 | TodPunk | The sentiment he's expressing is caustic, but still relatively true. You are not empathizing with those opposite you. You have essentially dismissed their position by dismissing their motives. |
| 16:58.56 | TodPunk | For instance, they probably feel the same dismissal for your supposed altruism |
| 16:59.07 | TodPunk | they are no less right or wrong in that dismissal |
| 16:59.22 | manithree | And I give the same crap to my conservative friends |
| 16:59.32 | TodPunk | You don't have to agree with manithree's point here, I'm just trying to communicate his point better than the angst he gave it |
| 17:00.12 | TodPunk | It is pretty fundamental as a point to why people form their units in the first place. |
| 17:00.28 | unum | manithree: what would you say are the actual differences? |
| 17:00.55 | manithree | I think the role of government is more fundamental to the difference, than "I'm more compassionate than you? |
| 17:01.46 | TodPunk | This is interesting, too. If you define your unit wide enough, you actually don't include a lot of individuals in your unit at all. Their interests are dismissed to sacrifice for another set in the unit. You take from one kid and give to another. The reasoning might be sound for such, but it doesn't change that it is taking. |
| 17:02.14 | unum | so I could have worded, is the role of government to promote the interest of only it's own citizens? Or is the role of government simply to allow units with in it to promote themselves? |
| 17:02.33 | manithree | I'm not versed on SLC's homeless issues, I was commenting more generally on the unit discussion. |
| 17:02.40 | fungus | manithree, specifically referring to the issue of the homeless shelter. I talked to several people in my community who signed the petition to keep it out of their city. |
| 17:02.57 | unum | there was a guy at the homeless shelter meeting who told the Draper mayer he should not being considering in action to help the homeless since they are not draper residents |
| 17:03.00 | fungus | They actually do have bad motives. |
| 17:03.06 | unum | is that a conservative or liberal statement? |
| 17:03.17 | fungus | Selfishness. e.g. property values. |
| 17:03.35 | TodPunk | unum: more fundamentally, it's a question of if the role of government is to take from one group to give to another. |
| 17:03.47 | unum | fungus: property values, crime, inconvinience, were reasons listed by my neighbors |
| 17:04.04 | TodPunk | (this is a sort of trick, in that government literally can't do anything else) |
| 17:04.05 | fungus | unum, do you live the in sugarhouse area? |
| 17:04.12 | unum | TodPunk: exactly |
| 17:04.17 | unum | fungus: no, Draper |
| 17:04.24 | TodPunk | (but the boundaries of how are the debate, really) |
| 17:04.39 | fungus | lol, same sentiments in both places then. |
| 17:04.51 | TodPunk | labeling the statement conservative or liberal will say more about the labeler than the statement |
| 17:04.56 | unum | TodPunk: but how does that fit in with gay marriage |
| 17:05.08 | TodPunk | don't jump around |
| 17:06.23 | TodPunk | Unrelated: Facebook can't keep track of which notifications I've seen to save it's life, and it's sometimes very frustrating. |
| 17:06.47 | keldwud | TodPunk: I don't necessarily think he was calling me liberal because of that, I viewed it as just an observation of an example of where people lie on the scale between who we consider okay to provide resources for versus those who we choose not to share our resources with |
| 17:07.07 | keldwud | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZaz7OqyTHQ |
| 17:07.12 | unum | labels such as liberal and conservative are very fluid, and pretty much everyone has a different definition |
| 17:08.17 | TodPunk | keldwud: I don't actually think it matters much. I'm representing manithree's point, not my own position in any of this (my own position is that these discussions are really quite stupid and ephemeral as they relate to getting anything done) |
| 17:09.07 | romanovic | wrong. the point of these discussions is to provide morning entertainment instead of getting work done |
| 17:09.08 | unum | I know many conservatives claim it's a difference about giving to charities vs government, but in context of immigration that makes no sense |
| 17:09.15 | unum | romanovic: :) |
| 17:09.20 | keldwud | ahh, yeah |
| 17:09.22 | keldwud | I see |
| 17:09.39 | TodPunk | the fun part is that both unum and manithree are correct in their characterization of those at the meeting about the homeless shelter |
| 17:09.41 | keldwud | romanovic: I chose to go with the HB1 immigration and homeless discussion over the dad of five discussion |
| 17:09.46 | keldwud | far less triggering |
| 17:09.48 | manithree | I actually think a big part of the problem with political discourse is the labeling and team mindset. So I think it is useful. |
| 17:10.20 | unum | manithree: I agree with you, and admit I was completely guilty in perpetrating the problem :) |
| 17:10.25 | TodPunk | It isn't. That will never change. |
| 17:10.54 | TodPunk | Discussing it is mental trickery of ourselves. |
| 17:10.54 | manithree | TodPunk: You might be correct, but it's still a problem. |
| 17:11.09 | TodPunk | s/problem/state/ |
| 17:11.35 | TodPunk | It will change when our DNA changes to drive out those instincts |
| 17:11.47 | TodPunk | which won't be anytime soon |
| 17:12.07 | manithree | I don't think it requires gene therapy, just self-examination and rational thought. |
| 17:12.08 | TodPunk | though CRISPR and the like probably make it a hell of a lot sooner than the tens of thousands of years it would normally take |
| 17:12.16 | manithree | whether that will catch on or not, is another question. |
| 17:12.40 | TodPunk | um... how much of humanity do you think are even capable of either? Because I have really, really bad news for you if you think either of those can be taught, let alone done. |
| 17:13.41 | manithree | If that's really true (and I'm not saying it's not), then what we really need is a benevolent dictator |
| 17:14.31 | TodPunk | Humans definitely search for a king |
| 17:14.52 | unum | anyone else read plato's republic? |
| 17:14.59 | TodPunk | a long, long time ago |
| 17:15.18 | manithree | But that never turns out well, so I have to have hope. Which admittedly requires some disregard for history. |
| 17:15.47 | unum | personally I view more useful for personal guidance |
| 17:15.49 | TodPunk | hope is fine |
| 17:15.56 | unum | but the goverment ideas are interesting |
| 17:16.02 | TodPunk | yes |
| 17:16.21 | TodPunk | it's just a game, but it is fun and utilitious in thinking about things that matter |
| 17:16.47 | TodPunk | at the very least it can help one define their own stances on how to live before the decision-making has to happen |
| 17:16.50 | keldwud | you guys wanna tackle the depressing and anger inducing topic now? |
| 17:16.54 | TodPunk | sure |
| 17:16.56 | TodPunk | bring it on |
| 17:17.01 | TodPunk | (the answer is you're dumb) |
| 17:17.12 | jlp_znc | snorts |
| 17:17.15 | TodPunk | (I'll accept my prize now) |
| 17:18.26 | unum | I know conservatives who like to claim the differences are about the proper role of government, the conservatives currently feel like they are party less |
| 17:18.54 | jlp_znc | so wait, conservatives == confederates? |
| 17:19.04 | TodPunk | people that make claims, regardless of what they are, are always heavily influenced by what comforts themselves |
| 17:19.08 | unum | jlp_znc: did you miss the flag debate |
| 17:19.10 | jlp_znc | didn't we have a war about that? |
| 17:19.13 | jlp_znc | I must have |
| 17:19.14 | manithree | I've seen lots of NIMBY from "liberals" |
| 17:19.17 | jlp_znc | just tuned in |
| 17:19.35 | unum | jlp_znc: some people are still fighting the war, and waving the battle flag |
| 17:19.36 | jlp_znc | just in time to see TodPunk's comment about "you're dumb" |
| 17:19.40 | unum | and posting it on their trucks |
| 17:19.46 | keldwud | dad of five, abuses his kids on youtube under the banner of "just a prank" |
| 17:19.48 | jlp_znc | gracious |
| 17:20.08 | jlp_znc | as Yakov Smirnov would say, "what a country!" |
| 17:20.21 | TodPunk | keldwud: you'll have to define "abuse" because some people define my not giving each kid ice cream as abuse, and sincerely believe I should be locked up for it. |
| 17:20.48 | unum | my daughter tells me I'm mean because I won't let her play on my phone all day |
| 17:20.55 | keldwud | he's called "dad of five" |
| 17:20.57 | jlp_znc | you're a terrible person, TodPunk. you too, unum |
| 17:21.10 | TodPunk | I've never claimed otherwise, jlp_znc |
| 17:21.15 | jlp_znc | :-) |
| 17:21.25 | manithree | "You're so mean" "That's my job" is becoming cliche at my house |
| 17:21.25 | keldwud | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvoLmsXKkYM&t=615s |
| 17:21.38 | keldwud | warning - this topic could trigger rage |
| 17:22.00 | keldwud | you see video of a child actually being abused and how the child reacts to this abuse |
| 17:22.11 | jlp_znc | brief pause while everyone goes to watch the video |
| 17:22.13 | keldwud | and then you watch a video of the parents justifying the behavior |
| 17:22.18 | keldwud | well it's 13 minutes |
| 17:22.23 | keldwud | so I can summarize if necessary |
| 17:23.56 | TodPunk | I feel like that video is not what you meant it to be |
| 17:24.01 | jlp_znc | wow |
| 17:24.27 | keldwud | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvoLmsXKkYM&t |
| 17:24.32 | keldwud | accidentally had a timestamp in it |
| 17:24.43 | jlp_znc | I think I have to go with "they are asshole parents who are exploiting their children for money" |
| 17:24.44 | keldwud | watch from the beginning |
| 17:24.52 | keldwud | jlp_znc: not just that, it gets worse |
| 17:25.03 | keldwud | the one child, cody is actually experiencing trauma |
| 17:25.03 | manithree | I got a video about the facebook shooter. |
| 17:25.14 | keldwud | manithree: yeah I pasted the link with a timestamp accidentally |
| 17:25.24 | keldwud | try the second link or start the video from the beginning |
| 17:25.43 | keldwud | there's even one point where they prank the kid with a fake home invasion and a gun and everything |
| 17:25.43 | jlp_znc | I started it from the beginning |
| 17:26.53 | jlp_znc | "at least you're not beating us like most parents" |
| 17:28.37 | unum | I'm starting to be very tempted to give up on firefox |
| 17:28.45 | jlp_znc | these kids are going to have long term problems |
| 17:28.59 | keldwud | the video did help me take a look at myself and when I yell at my kid and has helped me with finding a way to better resolve those situations where I feel like yelling at my kid because seeing how that kid reacts makes me realize that my kid has no clue what is going on when I'm yelling and it's not her fault (I knew this logically, just couldn't get it to translate emotionally) but I definitely will use this as an opportunity to change myself and make |
| 17:29.05 | TodPunk | I'll be honest, I don't think they're being abused. I'm betting that a) the kids are in on it, and b) you're projecting your own culture, which would change things if theirs was yours. They have a different culture and they'll have their own maladjusted stupidity as adults. The kids seem fine in the discussion video. I won't want my kids hanging out with their kids anytime ever, but this is mild at worst. |
| 17:29.31 | keldwud | TodPunk: did you miss the parts where Cody was getting hit and pushed into his bookshelf? |
| 17:29.40 | keldwud | he gets physically abused by his brothers |
| 17:29.45 | keldwud | while the dad films it |
| 17:30.07 | keldwud | I'll definitely accept your point b) though |
| 17:30.10 | manithree | I really have an issue with that being legally actionable. |
| 17:30.15 | keldwud | that very well could be part of how I am responding |
| 17:30.33 | TodPunk | Either he's in on it, or you're watching a mild form of brotherly play. I don't say that I agree with their choices, but they're just their family's choices on what to allow. |
| 17:30.56 | keldwud | that kid Cody isn't going to know what's real or ever truly feel safe, though |
| 17:31.00 | jlp_znc | I do expect that the kids are in on it to a certain extent |
| 17:31.15 | TodPunk | There are communities that resolve issues with actual fights and leave the loser in the yard to regain consciousness, and that's all over youtube. |
| 17:31.18 | TodPunk | keldwud: so what? |
| 17:31.18 | keldwud | they give him toys and then break them just to get a reaction out of him |
| 17:31.50 | TodPunk | feeling safe is a) a lie, and b) not a requirement of parenting |
| 17:32.20 | frostyfrog | c) none of the above |
| 17:32.28 | frostyfrog | :p |
| 17:32.34 | keldwud | bullying is bullying regardless of how we frame what we think kids should have |
| 17:32.34 | TodPunk | I highly doubt a 10 minute youtube video experience is the entire context of that kids life either. They probably play video games and talk about responsibility and eat corndogs as a family, too |
| 17:32.36 | frostyfrog | thinks outside the box. |
| 17:32.49 | TodPunk | bullying is not one thing |
| 17:33.10 | TodPunk | it /might/ be one thing to /you/ |
| 17:33.23 | keldwud | I don't know, dude |
| 17:33.25 | TodPunk | but there's definitely no legal definition with which to judge others on |
| 17:33.43 | keldwud | watching this kid cry while his family bullies him makes me believe that there is something fucked up going on |
| 17:33.45 | manithree | Ok, the part where the dad pushes the kid into the shelf and gives him a bloody nose, that's pretty bad. |
| 17:34.07 | keldwud | destroying his possessions after he did something positive |
| 17:34.24 | keldwud | it destroys his trust |
| 17:34.34 | TodPunk | I get why you hate this video, man, truly. I'm not condoning his actions, but you projecting your culture on him is just as bad as him projecting his culture on you, and I would defend you to him calling you names about how messed up he thinks your parenting style is. |
| 17:34.46 | manithree | Completely trailer trash, despicable, and I'm glad I didn't watch the source video to give them ad revenue. |
| 17:35.27 | keldwud | I'm just really having a difficult time putting myself in the dad's shoes, TodPunk |
| 17:35.28 | TodPunk | They're also totally hicks. This is absolutely their world and they seem to be doing ok given that context. |
| 17:35.45 | TodPunk | oh, dude, keldwud, you never will be able to. TOTALLY different world |
| 17:35.53 | jlp_znc | and this is a large problem with our society. |
| 17:36.22 | manithree | jlp_znc: The trailer trash, or keldwud's inability to relate? |
| 17:36.26 | manithree | or both? |
| 17:36.28 | keldwud | lol |
| 17:36.31 | keldwud | I was wondering the same |
| 17:37.01 | TodPunk | keep in mind that these kids will likely grow up to be the workhorses of whatever industry might be left, and they'll take stress a hell of a lot better in those cases. There are definitely positive outcomes to their choices, or they wouldn't have a place in society right now. |
| 17:37.15 | keldwud | I mean, are there situations where we *have* to put ourselves in their shoes to understand? can there sometimes be situations where we can say "okay, that's pretty fucked up, I can't stand by that" |
| 17:37.26 | keldwud | TodPunk: ok I get that last point |
| 17:37.55 | keldwud | I do understand that people who have a poor socio-economic background are at risk of higher stress peer groups and jobs |
| 17:38.05 | keldwud | and without the proper "toughness" they will always be victims |
| 17:38.18 | TodPunk | Socially, or legally? Because you can and should see that and say something socially about it, but getting the government to enforce your opinion is a different matter. |
| 17:38.19 | keldwud | so I can see how you can spin it as this dad is giving his kids a better chance of survival |
| 17:38.47 | TodPunk | CPS exists to keep the boundaries there, and those are very broad but they exist. |
| 17:38.48 | keldwud | like "a boy named Sue" by Shel Silverstein (famously sung by johnny cash) |
| 17:39.32 | keldwud | so you've spoken on the pranks and bullying parts, but the physical abuse? I still think there's quite a strong case for emotional abuse as well |
| 17:39.38 | TodPunk | I don't think the dad has any concept of what he's doing to his kids. Both parents (mostly the mom) are passing on their culture, probably unknowingly. |
| 17:39.43 | keldwud | which I agree is difficult to quantify |
| 17:39.52 | TodPunk | You call it physical abuse, but that again says more about your culture than theirs. |
| 17:40.15 | keldwud | "my parents did this to me, so it must be okay, because my parents wouldn't ever do anything wrong to me" |
| 17:40.18 | keldwud | like that? :-p |
| 17:40.30 | keldwud | so therefore it's okay for me to do it to my kids |
| 17:40.32 | jlp_znc | both |
| 17:40.36 | keldwud | because *I* turned out okay, right? |
| 17:40.38 | jlp_znc | sorry, got sucked into work :-) |
| 17:40.48 | keldwud | np, this is a really rough subject to deal with |
| 17:40.57 | TodPunk | Story time |
| 17:41.51 | TodPunk | once when I ran the call center, we took a call from a woman trying to get a refund who, ON THE PHONE CALL, beat her child. She was in some eastern state in the middle like Kentucky or something. She had to call back so she hung up while beating her kid for taking a cookie, I believe. |
| 17:42.40 | TodPunk | The rep wanted to do something, so I had her call CPS in that state (which was a difficult number to find). |
| 17:43.14 | TodPunk | CPS empathized with wanting to do something, but said that unless it left a permanent mark, it was legal to punish your child physically. |
| 17:43.41 | manithree | An even more stark example would be a JW parent letting a child die by refusing blood transfusions. Do they have that right as parents? |
| 17:43.42 | TodPunk | I've thought a lot about that over the years, and frankly, I agree with CPS. I don't want you or anyone else telling me how my parenting sucks with the force of the law behind you. |
| 17:44.33 | TodPunk | I support your right to talk to me about it at the park. I don't support your ability to harass me with cops about what you don't agree with, regardless of whatever research about how "traumatic" it might be. |
| 17:44.53 | keldwud | but like I mentioned earlier, I used this as an opportunity to look at myself and see what I could change about myself to be less like the dad in the videos and more like somebody that I want my daughter to have in her life. |
| 17:45.00 | TodPunk | Because at the end of the day, and this is the important bit, we're both giving our kids different limitations. |
| 17:45.08 | keldwud | and you're right, TodPunk. Who am *I* to say what's traumatic and isn't? |
| 17:45.38 | keldwud | but sometimes we objectively conclude that there are certain things that we can't do to our children |
| 17:45.56 | keldwud | and we grow as a society |
| 17:46.18 | TodPunk | I disagree. That's never happened. |
| 17:46.24 | keldwud | I'm not trying to be hyperbolic with this example, but we learned that having children work in factories and mines was not necessarily in the best interest of the child |
| 17:46.29 | jlp_znc | keldwud, you have personal experience with this after having your daughter brought home by the cops when she was just trying to get to school. |
| 17:46.38 | TodPunk | We have medical evidence that something is universally bad, and the rest is just etiquette |
| 17:46.51 | keldwud | so we took away a parent's rights to have their children work in those situations |
| 17:47.02 | keldwud | jlp_znc: that's true |
| 17:47.13 | jlp_znc | I think our society is starting to homogenize, thanks to the internets, and as this happens we will face more social issues like this |
| 17:47.23 | keldwud | but I can objectively show that she wasn't harmed and wasn't being harmed and isn't going to be harmed as a result |
| 17:47.27 | TodPunk | Um, not really, you can still have your kid work 12 hour days in a factory, if you own it, or you own the company contracted to work it. |
| 17:47.50 | jlp_znc | nothing is happening that hasn't been happening for decades. we are just learning about it thanks to youtube, blogs, etc. |
| 17:47.52 | TodPunk | keldwud: you can't prove she was safe. |
| 17:48.04 | keldwud | I can, because she is still with me and alive |
| 17:48.11 | keldwud | I think the burden of proof is that she was in danger |
| 17:48.24 | TodPunk | No, you can only conclude that nothing happened in those instances. You'll never win the safety argument. It's sensational, so nobody can win it. |
| 17:48.40 | keldwud | also, I can punch an adult and I would get assault charges |
| 17:48.53 | keldwud | but why can I punch a kid and get away with it because "parenting rights"? |
| 17:48.55 | jlp_znc | as this happens, our society will start to come to a common point. it will likely take a long time, but as communication and travel continues to become easier, eventually we will all harbor similar beliefs. |
| 17:48.59 | TodPunk | The cops bringing her home shows that a) no burden of proof is needed, and b) your ideals don't matter |
| 17:49.12 | TodPunk | you can't |
| 17:49.18 | TodPunk | you can punch YOUR kid, but that's different |
| 17:49.30 | keldwud | pedant |
| 17:49.31 | TodPunk | because frankly, /somebody/ will have to |
| 17:49.36 | keldwud | lol, you know I meant "my" kid |
| 17:49.43 | TodPunk | No, you're bringing in the law. Definitions are all the law has. |
| 17:49.52 | TodPunk | So I clarified. |
| 17:50.04 | jlp_znc | returns to work |
| 17:50.14 | TodPunk | You were conflating the age. I was conflating the relationship. The relationship is the important bit. |
| 17:50.32 | manithree | jlp_znc: Maybe the majority on some core issues, but there will always be deviants |
| 17:50.36 | TodPunk | Also, I agree with jlp_znc |
| 17:50.50 | jlp_znc | gasp |
| 17:50.53 | jlp_znc | :-) |
| 17:51.00 | keldwud | true, it is more about the relationship |
| 17:51.24 | keldwud | like how partners can physically hit each other and get into less trouble than two strangers punching one another |
| 17:51.28 | TodPunk | but this will be a problem, because quite frankly someone has to drive steers and birth calves and work on oil rigs, and your feelings mean squat in those situations and we've already got problems with adults that can't deal with the stress of being criticized for being poor performers. |
| 17:52.05 | TodPunk | so the homogenization will probably mean the deviants will have greater aptitude at doing certain things. |
| 17:52.10 | jlp_znc | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVaPCPoP_cI |
| 17:52.26 | TodPunk | Yes, yes I can |
| 17:52.28 | keldwud | jlp_znc: ew gross |
| 17:52.37 | manithree | I'm talking about the serious deviants, like people with a desire to eat other people, or murder for fun |
| 17:53.27 | manithree | As well as some general disagreement |
| 17:54.03 | jlp_znc | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vLQZh6eaTg |
| 17:54.20 | keldwud | TodPunk: are you arguing that being bullied is necessary for the development of children so that they can be successful at working on oil rigs and birthing calves? |
| 17:54.47 | keldwud | and is it possible to be successful at those tasks having "missed out" on those types of experiences of being "toughened up"? |
| 17:54.49 | jlp_znc | if my children start having calves instead of babies, I'll be concerned. |
| 17:54.54 | manithree | JP is hilarious |
| 17:55.03 | TodPunk | manithree: ok, not typically THAT far deviant |
| 17:55.15 | keldwud | I get how it would be beneficial if we lived in a warring society where we had to have what it takes to harm other human beings |
| 17:55.43 | keldwud | but I don't get how it's required or necessary for developing humans in a first world society |
| 17:56.48 | TodPunk | keldwud: no. Bullying is normal human behavior and will never be stopped, regardless of your definition of bullying, because they're kids and they don't have reasoning skills until their teens anyway. DEALING with bullying is easier, and can be a healthy mastery of self /and/ the bully, but this is not the approach we take. |
| 17:56.50 | keldwud | also, the other topics were less emotional for me :( I maybe want to get back to them. I cried today watching that kid. |
| 17:57.29 | keldwud | not trying to run away from the topic, just understanding that I'm getting too emotionally invested in it to have a rational discussion |
| 17:57.30 | TodPunk | Instead, we assume the bully is in a position of power and must have that removed from him by a being of greater power. What we should be doing is showing the bullied how the bully is really without meaning or power and how he can be controlled. |
| 17:57.36 | TodPunk | But yeah, that's a different convo |
| 17:57.54 | keldwud | ok I agree with that last point. I think I see what you're getting at now |
| 17:57.58 | TodPunk | What we tend to do is remove any adversity from our childrens' lives, which is only a semi-related concept. |
| 17:58.14 | keldwud | how just because we don't agree with their methods, it doesn't make it right for us to take away their autonomy |
| 17:58.16 | keldwud | or something like that |
| 17:58.44 | TodPunk | Ultimately, I just don't agree with forcing our morality on others. |
| 17:58.55 | TodPunk | Despite the utility of some of those morals. |
| 17:59.15 | TodPunk | "Don't murder" is not something we need to have a moral reason to enforce in law. |
| 17:59.23 | TodPunk | "Don't call someone a mean name" is |
| 17:59.51 | TodPunk | Where the line inbetween those is drawn is a subject worth debating, but it changes constantly and I don't care much about it, just that we don't go extreme in either direction. |
| 18:00.23 | TodPunk | Balance, I guess, is my desired goal in all these things, and that means we need people opposite each other around the wheel. |
| 18:00.31 | TodPunk | like you and Daddy of Five |
| 18:00.39 | keldwud | cringes |
| 18:00.46 | keldwud | you did that on purpose |
| 18:00.51 | keldwud | put me and him in the same sentence |
| 18:00.58 | TodPunk | drives it home, doesn't it |
| 18:00.59 | keldwud | and it got an emotional reaction out of me :( |
| 18:01.17 | TodPunk | You can't remove him from necessity without removing yourself. |
| 18:01.39 | TodPunk | You are either both valid, or both invalid for opposite reasons. |
| 18:02.19 | unum | going back to earlier, I don't think I ever made a moral judgement about viewing your kids as equal to kids with different color skin on the other side of globe |
| 18:02.19 | TodPunk | The nice thing is there's no reconciliation that has to happen for you to accept that. |
| 18:02.38 | unum | I was just saying you're more likely to identify as liberal if you are willing to make that comparison |
| 18:03.03 | TodPunk | writes some javascript |
| 18:03.08 | unum | I did see someone show up at a democratic meeting and start talking about mexicans stealling americans jobs, they threw her out and told her not to come back |
| 18:03.52 | unum | my leg chair was contacted by a democrat asking if she was organizing opposition to the homeless shelter, she said she was not.... |
| 18:51.02 | romanovic | where's our rain? it was in the forecast all day long. Haven't seen one drop yet |
| 18:52.04 | unum | it had sprinkled before I got to work |
| 18:52.20 | unum | but I haven't seen anything since |
| 18:54.00 | keldwud | I had a couple sprinkles this morning |
| 19:23.40 | *** join/#utah infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 19:23.40 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds |
| 19:23.40 | *** mode/#utah [+o infobot] by ChanServ |
| 19:24.49 | unum | I get this much closer to switching to chromium everyday |
| 19:26.01 | TodPunk | from? |
| 19:26.43 | unum | firefox |
| 19:26.49 | TodPunk | no question, do it now |
| 19:29.24 | jsmith | Might want to wait for Chromium to fix the "emoji domain spoofing" issue first, though :-) |
| 19:30.01 | TodPunk | I somehow don't think that affects unum |
| 19:30.14 | TodPunk | plus, I don't think Firefox has fixed it either, have they? |
| 19:30.38 | TodPunk | switches to Edge, just in case |
| 19:30.39 | jsmith | They fixed it a couple of years ago |
| 19:30.41 | TodPunk | surely this will improve things |
| 19:31.00 | jsmith | (Not everyone cares about security -- that being said, I'll bet unum cares about security) |
| 19:36.38 | TodPunk | Sure, but how often is he phished in general to even get to the point where it would matter? |
| 19:39.05 | unum | that's funny firefox is a head on this one |
| 19:39.23 | unum | firefox seems to eat up a whole bunch of memory from time to time |
| 19:39.29 | unum | and it seems to be getting worse |
| 19:39.35 | unum | even though I have flash disabled |
| 19:46.50 | manithree | chrome still does that, sometimes too. |
| 19:47.42 | spangborn | I've found Chrome to be worse with it |
| 19:48.04 | keldwud | lynx! we should all go back to lynx |
| 19:48.36 | keldwud | I had this really cool browser once called arachne on my dos box that I was running in 2006 |
| 19:48.40 | keldwud | it was pretty neat |
| 19:48.55 | keldwud | I can't remember where I found the network stack from to even get onto the web, but I found a network stack for dos 6.0 |
| 19:49.32 | keldwud | this guy right here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne_(web_browser) |
| 19:49.56 | keldwud | then I upgraded to OS/2 warp 4 and used netscape in 2007 |
| 19:50.19 | keldwud | these are the types of stories I should tell in job interviews |
| 19:51.28 | aeryndunham | heh, not at interviews, but one of my fave tech stories is that my first computer was very out of date and older than I was and I didn't have a clue :p |
| 19:52.11 | aeryndunham | My mom's friend was a teacher and they were upgrading in her classroom so in 1994 I was given an Apple IIc |
| 20:05.24 | manithree | When I first started programming, we didn't even have one's. We had to program all in zeros. And we liked it! |
| 20:38.03 | frostyfrog | ^ |
| 20:38.49 | frostyfrog | "We had to do it the hard way AND WE LIKED IT!" Nowadays, it's all "Uugh, is there an easier way to do this?" |
| 20:39.20 | frostyfrog | s/easier/easier (but maybe less efficient)/ |
| 20:46.06 | TodPunk | (but definitely less efficient) |
| 20:47.06 | keldwud | oh god, the salary question! |
| 20:48.53 | frostyfrog | They just don't think about the efficiency though :p |
| 20:49.17 | frostyfrog | They just care that it's easier and their code works. |
| 20:49.56 | keldwud | I successfully avoided it during the screening! |
| 20:50.10 | unum | "on time and under budget" is my model |
| 20:50.33 | unum | or the way my boss puts it, "the goal of this company is to make as much money as possible with as few people as possible" |
| 20:52.01 | keldwud | or as few dollars |
| 21:01.39 | romanovic | heh. keldwud, I too hate the salary question and always answer $0. All of my past salaries were $0, because I won't let that be a factor in someone's decision to extend a job offer |
| 21:02.43 | keldwud | I was able to get away with "I'm happy to negotiate salary when you guys are ready to make an offer" |
| 21:02.47 | keldwud | lol, is that bad? |
| 21:02.56 | keldwud | I didn't say it in those words exactly, but to that effect |
| 21:02.59 | romanovic | No, I think that is an excellent answer |
| 21:04.06 | *** join/#utah aarobc (uid151482@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mutnrxpesqgwkjek) |
| 21:16.29 | jlp_znc | nicely done, keldwud |
| 21:16.41 | romanovic | takes advantage of this depressingly rain-less afternoon to take a walk |
| 21:17.12 | jlp_znc | I hate the salary question, as well. |
| 21:17.24 | jlp_znc | I generally like to counter with "how much to YOU make?" |
| 21:17.29 | jlp_znc | s/to/do/ |
| 21:17.34 | jlp_znc | arg |
| 21:17.44 | jlp_znc | regexp substitution fail |
| 21:18.32 | frostyfrog | xD |
| 22:42.07 | manithree | romanovic: Or "how much do all my peers on my team make?" |
| 22:48.50 | gtmanfred | jfindlay: yah, yesterday i was able to powershell into a windows vm from centos 7 |
| 22:48.58 | gtmanfred | https://github.com/PowerShell/psl-omi-provider#connecting-from-linux-to-windows |
| 23:00.09 | unum | eightyeight: I forgot to tell you. I finished 13 last night |
| 23:01.22 | eightyeight | I'm about a third through 11. |
| 23:12.23 | klys | gtmanfred, powershell running on centos? |
| 23:33.22 | gtmanfred | yeah |
| 23:33.33 | gtmanfred | i used it to connect to a windows machine so i didn't have to use rdp to install salt |
| 23:33.39 | gtmanfred | manually* |
| 23:33.42 | gtmanfred | i could have used salt cloud |
| 23:33.52 | gtmanfred | but wanted to mess with master and salt-call on the windows server |