| 00:05.00 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@unaffiliated/keldwud) |
| 00:05.15 | keldwud | frostyfrog: https://www.reddit.com/r/reallifedoodles/ |
| 00:21.52 | *** join/#utah infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 00:21.52 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds |
| 00:21.52 | *** mode/#utah [+o infobot] by ChanServ |
| 01:15.16 | *** join/#utah aeryndunham (~jacki@170.250.131.39) |
| 02:36.56 | *** join/#utah maquis (~maquis@c-98-202-241-92.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:36.56 | *** mode/#utah [+v maquis] by ChanServ |
| 02:37.45 | maquis | anyone around that could take a look at a network issue I posted to stackexchange? I posted it about 2 weeks ago, and haven't had any responses there. |
| 02:38.01 | maquis | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/42639980/no-route-to-host-within-internal-network-until-i-ping-source-machine-from-destin |
| 02:50.44 | maquis | ~lart networking issues |
| 02:50.44 | infobot | dumps 42 tons of dirt, manure, and fish heads on networking issues |
| 02:50.58 | maquis | ~lart goozbach |
| 02:50.58 | infobot | blasts goozbach with a huge firehose then strangles goozbach with it |
| 03:03.32 | TodPunk | I love how you have somehow been downvoted for the asking |
| 03:04.17 | TodPunk | My guess it is route or arp related. |
| 03:04.30 | TodPunk | Are you sending an arp request from your laptop in the first place? |
| 03:04.52 | maquis | not sure |
| 03:05.06 | TodPunk | You get to do the tcp_dump or Wireshark dance! |
| 03:05.26 | maquis | hmm... this is where I don't know much... |
| 03:05.54 | TodPunk | when you don't know what hardware address a thing on the local subnet is at, you do an Ethernet level "broadcast" to ask where a given IP address is at |
| 03:05.58 | TodPunk | this is called an ARP request |
| 03:06.12 | TodPunk | an ARP reply is sent from the MAC with the IP on it |
| 03:06.19 | TodPunk | if either of those is failing, no bueno |
| 03:06.45 | maquis | ah... right... that's the "who is 192.168.1.5" message to get the mac address back, right? |
| 03:07.01 | maquis | ok... installing wireshark currently so i can check |
| 03:07.27 | maquis | do ssh and ping normally not do an arp? it seems like their default state should do it |
| 03:07.27 | TodPunk | The other problem could be if the laptop or something doesn't know what it's local subnet IS. For instance, if I have a 192.168.1.4 with a subnet mask of 255.255.255.255, and another machine with 192.168.1.208 with a subnet mask with 255.255.255.128 |
| 03:07.48 | TodPunk | the first and the second will not talk to each other because the first will think the second is local, but the second will the the first is foreign |
| 03:08.03 | maquis | and i also was able to successfully ssh from one laptop to another when they've never pinged each other or anything before |
| 03:08.16 | TodPunk | EVERYTHING above the Ethernet layer does an ARP if it's not in the cache and the address is on the local broadcast segment |
| 03:08.33 | maquis | huh... wait... so, here's a thought... |
| 03:09.06 | maquis | on my network, the router is using addresses above 192.168.1.100 for dhcp, and addresses below that for static |
| 03:09.55 | maquis | so, my laptop is using 192.168.1.125... and the server is 192.168.1.5. So maybe somehow the laptop is only seeing the computers over .100? |
| 03:11.09 | TodPunk | Depends on the subnet masks |
| 03:13.14 | maquis | ifconfig -a is showing a netmask of 255.255.255.0 on my laptop |
| 03:13.21 | TodPunk | if I do an `ifconfig -a` the mask is there |
| 03:13.22 | TodPunk | yeah |
| 03:13.40 | maquis | so it should be able to see anything with 192.168.1.* |
| 03:15.21 | TodPunk | the laptop should be able to communicate with anything on the network |
| 03:15.28 | TodPunk | the .5 is statically configured |
| 03:15.35 | TodPunk | so it has a lot more variance probability |
| 03:16.46 | TodPunk | You could also look for a NOARP on the server's ethernet interface, which would be weird and bad |
| 03:17.11 | maquis | huh... just realized that the server is using its wireless instead of wired... :) |
| 03:17.17 | TodPunk | I put all this on the answer for your ? btw |
| 03:17.23 | maquis | it has a mask of 255.255.255.0 |
| 03:17.47 | TodPunk | wireless introduces a whole slew of new problems I won't get into on linux. If you have a server on wireless on linux, you have your own hell you made |
| 03:17.52 | maquis | cool. i appreciate the help! :) |
| 03:17.59 | TodPunk | curses wifi |
| 03:18.28 | TodPunk | is the mask 255.255.255.0 on both interfaces? |
| 03:18.32 | maquis | i'm trying to remember why i did that... i'm sure there was some sort of reason |
| 03:19.31 | maquis | hmmm.. it looks like nothing is currently even trying to do anything with the ethernet. :) I think I'm going to go walk down the hall and plug it in. :) |
| 03:21.43 | maquis | ok. plugged it in... now i need to bring up that interface... |
| 03:22.48 | maquis | ooh... okay. so, that makes things interesting. |
| 03:23.21 | maquis | now, 192.168.1.5 and 192.168.1.101 are both the server, one on wifi and one on ethernet. |
| 03:23.51 | maquis | if i exit out, and try to ssh to 192.168.1.101, it is giving me the same "no route to host" issue i get from 192.168.1.5 if i haven't pinged back to my laptop... |
| 03:24.12 | maquis | but i can still connect via 192.168.1.5 |
| 03:24.41 | TodPunk | `route print` on that server will tell you the priorities it has for various interfaces |
| 03:24.47 | maquis | the problem is, i don't know that there's a way to force it to use 101 without bringing down 5, right? |
| 03:25.15 | TodPunk | if it has no connection on 5, it shouldn't have anything in the route table for that interface/address |
| 03:25.26 | maquis | route -v? route print is just telling me how to use it |
| 03:26.03 | maquis | route -v is giving a kernel ip routing table. lists the wireless interfae above the ethernet one |
| 03:26.19 | TodPunk | ah, route -n |
| 03:26.26 | TodPunk | -n will not resolve IPs to domains |
| 03:27.18 | TodPunk | All things with a Genmask of 255.255.255.0 should have 0.0.0.0 as a gateway |
| 03:27.34 | maquis | ah. pretty similar results. 2 entries for destination 0.0.0.0 and gateway 192.168.1.1 (router), and 2 with destination 192.168.1.0 with gateway 0.0.0.0 |
| 03:28.28 | TodPunk | arp -n will give you similar information about the ARP table |
| 03:28.54 | maquis | so, under the Metric column, the wireless is 0 and the ethernet is 100. other than that and the interface name, the two lines in each set are the same |
| 03:30.01 | maquis | arp -n appears to be listing off the machines that have connected to it recently (or that it has connected to?) on the internal network, and their mac address. |
| 03:31.02 | maquis | so, if i can get wireshark to actually try to listen to something, I should be able to see what is going on when i try to ping 192.168.1.101, right? |
| 03:32.42 | TodPunk | lower metric is a higher priority |
| 03:32.53 | maquis | k |
| 03:33.06 | TodPunk | arp -n should also list the interface it thinks that MAC is on |
| 03:33.30 | TodPunk | and yes, you'd want to run wireshark or tcp_dump on both sides at once |
| 03:33.49 | TodPunk | tcpdump* |
| 03:33.56 | TodPunk | I typically do something like: |
| 03:34.20 | TodPunk | tcpdump -vvv port XX and host foo.bar.baz.ip |
| 03:34.30 | TodPunk | in this case you'd just drop the `port XX and` portion |
| 03:35.01 | maquis | and on each one, I want to put the other machine's IP address? or its own? |
| 03:35.03 | TodPunk | oh man |
| 03:35.07 | TodPunk | tcpdump -i any -vvv |
| 03:35.13 | TodPunk | the -i any is kinda important |
| 03:35.40 | TodPunk | on each one you want to put the other |
| 03:35.47 | maquis | (in case you can't tell, networking is definitely *not* my strong point) |
| 03:35.53 | TodPunk | I guess on the server you can put the host, on the laptop you can't |
| 03:36.11 | TodPunk | eh, no better time to learn than the present =cP |
| 03:36.29 | TodPunk | Especially if you want to use wifi on linux, it's good to know some of this |
| 03:36.29 | maquis | is -i the interface? |
| 03:36.33 | TodPunk | yeah |
| 03:36.48 | TodPunk | I always do `any` unless I really want to filter |
| 03:37.10 | TodPunk | the port/ip is usually enough to narrow things down, and then I can track hardware connection issues I'm not suspecting |
| 03:37.21 | maquis | should I use the ethernet interface isntead of any? because I'm wanting to try that... (and because I'm ssh'd to the server, so it's dumping the ssh as part of the dump |
| 03:37.34 | TodPunk | port not 22 |
| 03:37.53 | maquis | much better :) |
| 03:40.19 | maquis | ok. so i saw a bunch of arp requests on the server that seemed to be timed right along with the pings from the laptop... |
| 03:40.42 | maquis | and a bunch of arp requests on the laptop that also appeared to be timed with the pings |
| 03:41.01 | TodPunk | but not the pings? |
| 03:41.46 | maquis | no. ping replied with destination host unreachable? |
| 03:42.09 | TodPunk | k, ARP is definitely failing then |
| 03:42.17 | TodPunk | why is the server sending ARP requests? |
| 03:42.25 | TodPunk | shouldn't those be ARP replies? |
| 03:42.30 | maquis | this is using the ethernet rather than the wifi interface on the server |
| 03:42.38 | maquis | which i haven't actually tested, although ifconfig appears to be correct |
| 03:43.34 | TodPunk | There is a complication in that if you already have an ARP entry for X on ethernet, it may not add one for X onthe wifi |
| 03:43.37 | maquis | which, the tcpdump was using the hostname of the various computers rather than ip address in printing the arps |
| 03:43.49 | TodPunk | I don't know enough about the Linux stack to say how it will behave in that (weird) scenario |
| 03:44.08 | TodPunk | yeah, tcpdump tries to resolve IPs to names |
| 03:44.33 | maquis | i could take down the wireless interface for the server and just sit over in the room with the server |
| 03:45.25 | TodPunk | why would you need to sit in that room? |
| 03:45.42 | TodPunk | if your laptop is on wifi, the server can be wherever ethernet is and you should be able to get to it |
| 03:46.25 | maquis | the server's ethernet is what is not replying currently when i try to ping it |
| 03:46.35 | maquis | oh... and my irc session is currently in screen on the server :) |
| 03:46.50 | TodPunk | this just further compounds all day |
| 03:47.01 | maquis | sorry, :) |
| 03:47.03 | TodPunk | if you leave wifi down and reboot the server, I'm willing to bet ethernet will start working |
| 03:47.18 | TodPunk | (I'd say flush ARP, but I don't know how to do that on linux) |
| 03:47.30 | maquis | probably. i likely need to tell it not to start wifi automatically, right? |
| 03:47.56 | TodPunk | yes |
| 03:48.00 | maquis | i don't mind bouncing the server... it's not doing anything special. |
| 03:48.09 | TodPunk | except your IRC |
| 03:48.10 | maquis | ok... let me see... that would be in /etc/... |
| 03:48.31 | maquis | well.. irc and a drupal site that gets visits from various foreign countries... :) |
| 03:48.42 | TodPunk | "visits" =cP |
| 03:48.46 | maquis | :) |
| 03:48.59 | maquis | it's entertaining seeing all the attempts to load wordpress pages on my drupal site |
| 03:50.04 | maquis | ok... so, in /etc/network/interfaces, I want to comment out auto wlp2s0, right? |
| 03:50.41 | maquis | or i could just change all the instances of wlp2s0 with my ethernet interface, and comment out the wpa info |
| 03:51.03 | TodPunk | has no idea how that's configured |
| 03:51.11 | TodPunk | I have some distant memories of that file on debian? |
| 03:51.21 | maquis | what distro do you use? |
| 03:51.23 | TodPunk | oh, no, Ubuntu server |
| 03:51.25 | maquis | is using lubuntu |
| 03:51.27 | TodPunk | I remember this |
| 03:51.36 | TodPunk | I just have to do that like, once in a blue moon during setup |
| 03:51.59 | TodPunk | so yeah, comment out the auto wlp2s0 |
| 03:52.25 | TodPunk | there should be an auto <whatever-your-ethernet-is> |
| 03:53.28 | maquis | yeah... there wasn't another one for the ethernet... only for lo. |
| 03:53.54 | maquis | i think i have it. :) |
| 03:54.10 | TodPunk | we shall pray |
| 03:56.11 | *** join/#utah maquis (~maquis@98.202.241.92) |
| 03:56.11 | *** mode/#utah [+v maquis] by ChanServ |
| 03:56.23 | maquis | hi... just switched to my laptop instead of the server |
| 03:57.23 | TodPunk | oh, ok |
| 03:58.50 | maquis | ok. server is back up... and it is replying to pings to my public domain name (i changed it to use 192.168.1.5 for ethernet). and looking on the computer itself, the wifi is down and ethernet is up |
| 03:58.54 | maquis | so, that's good |
| 03:59.19 | maquis | ooh!!! it is also replying to pings to its ip address |
| 04:00.00 | maquis | if it continues replying to pings by internal ip address for a few more days, this might have solved it! |
| 04:00.08 | TodPunk | excellent |
| 04:00.13 | maquis | i'm not quite sure *what* the problem was, though |
| 04:00.22 | TodPunk | something with routing and ARP |
| 04:00.43 | TodPunk | which I can't guess without being on the thing to see it's config, but the realm of possibilities there contains it |
| 04:00.59 | maquis | hmmm.. wonder if thesuperbigfrog can ping it |
| 04:01.26 | maquis | because he couldn't before |
| 04:01.29 | maquis | and... he can! |
| 04:01.36 | TodPunk | Also excellent! |
| 04:01.37 | maquis | so, it looks like this is solved!!! Thanks a ton! |
| 04:01.48 | TodPunk | well, check back if it dies again |
| 04:01.56 | maquis | i will :) |
| 04:02.06 | maquis | i miss this place. wish i had more time to hang out here |
| 04:02.39 | TodPunk | having a life has cons |
| 04:03.37 | maquis | :) |
| 04:04.06 | maquis | i posted a quick summary to stack overflow, and tried to upvote your comment, but I don't have any reputation, so it didn't show up |
| 04:05.19 | TodPunk | I'm not concerned about the internet points I might receive, but thank you for trying anyway =cP |
| 04:05.34 | maquis | My life recently consists of endless alphabet songs, fights about homework, and taking kids to school... with a little bit of evening attempts to work on an android game :) |
| 04:05.49 | maquis | :) |
| 04:07.26 | TodPunk | I have to work on an android app in a month or so, but it's not as fun as a game |
| 04:08.08 | maquis | :) |
| 04:17.17 | maquis | anyway, i'm going to crash. thanks again, TodPunk!!! |
| 04:17.31 | maquis | have a good night |
| 04:17.39 | TodPunk | sleep well |
| 11:16.32 | *** join/#utah RuShan (~RuShan@19.sub-174-208-7.myvzw.com) |
| 14:14.22 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~bgerber@service.zenez.com) |
| 14:24.46 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~bgerber@service.zenez.com) |
| 14:58.51 | *** join/#utah nage (~nathan.ge@unaffiliated/nage) |
| 15:00.15 | *** join/#utah SunSparc (~jonathan@45.56.57.85) |
| 15:36.59 | *** join/#utah aeryndunham (~aeryndunh@170.250.131.39) |
| 15:37.32 | aeryndunham | there's a wasp in my bedroom I am incapable of dealing with |
| 15:38.16 | spangborn | Eat it |
| 15:38.36 | aeryndunham | I can't even go in the room |
| 15:39.01 | programmerq | wasps are easy to catch. Any time they want to go away from the spot where they've landed, the fly straight up. Take a water bottle and cut it in half. Take another water bottle and remove the lid. |
| 15:39.31 | programmerq | First, trap it in the water bottle cut in half by putting it over the wasp. it should try to fly up. when it does, you can take the other water bottle and put it over the opening. |
| 15:39.54 | programmerq | now you have the wasp in one and your goal is to get it into the one with the cut lid |
| 15:40.11 | programmerq | flip the whole thing over and position the open water bottle directly over the wasp. it'll fly straight up into the water bottle |
| 15:40.16 | programmerq | you can then put the lid on it |
| 15:40.21 | programmerq | trapped wasp |
| 15:49.24 | SunSparc | Or you can take a cup and do the same thing then slip a piece of paper under the opening then take the cup outside and let the bug go. |
| 15:49.37 | SunSparc | Or spray it full of bug spray. |
| 15:49.54 | SunSparc | Depending on your sentimentatlity toward bugs. |
| 15:50.13 | aeryndunham | Many bugs I will try to remove from my house and release them again |
| 15:50.20 | aeryndunham | bees and wasps do not afford this luxury |
| 15:50.44 | spangborn | Salt gun |
| 15:50.47 | TodPunk | bees should, wasps are assholes |
| 15:50.57 | SunSparc | Honey bees get a bad rap because of wasps. Honey bees are good. Wasps can die a fiery death. |
| 15:52.18 | SunSparc | laughs at the mental picture presented by TodPunk... flying anal sphincters... lol |
| 15:52.21 | aeryndunham | Ah, yes, I logically understand that bees are not wasps |
| 15:52.22 | aeryndunham | but |
| 15:52.42 | SunSparc | still scary? |
| 15:52.42 | SunSparc | :) |
| 15:52.51 | TodPunk | they're also far less aggressive than wasps |
| 15:52.55 | spangborn | I'd be okay being covered in honey bees |
| 15:53.00 | spangborn | I would not be okay being covered in wasps |
| 15:53.43 | SunSparc | Much, honeybees have no desire to sting you, especially away from the hive. If they fly toward you it just means you are in their flight path and if they bump into you they will just climb over you and fly away. |
| 15:54.11 | SunSparc | Wasps are just mean and angry little bugs. |
| 15:54.31 | TodPunk | Regardless, getting the wasp out is either going to require catching/swatting it, or opening a window and pray it finds its way out before others find their way in |
| 15:54.32 | SunSparc | So if it is a honeybee, you can calm your nerves a bit. |
| 15:54.41 | SunSparc | Yep |
| 15:54.56 | TodPunk | I got stung for the first time about 8 months ago, actually |
| 15:55.03 | aeryndunham | Luckily Chris just messaged that he's coming back here for lunch so I think it has just become someone else's problem |
| 15:55.04 | SunSparc | aeryndunham: If you do not feel up to it mentally, ask a neighbor? |
| 15:55.24 | TodPunk | picked up a rock, there was a wasp on it, it stung my palm |
| 15:55.31 | aeryndunham | I've been stung a few times |
| 15:55.40 | aeryndunham | I know my fears are still irrational, but here we are |
| 15:55.45 | SunSparc | :) |
| 15:56.00 | TodPunk | I swore a few times and then purposely mortared the wasp into the wall that rock was meant to go into |
| 15:56.12 | SunSparc | lol |
| 15:56.23 | aeryndunham | It's been cool by Florida standards for the past week so I've had the window open but for someone reason my 1-year-old "luxury apartment" complex has never heard of screens |
| 15:56.45 | SunSparc | screens for the win |
| 15:56.47 | TodPunk | knows his fears of spiders are irrational and cripplingly vivid, but he still kills them |
| 15:57.11 | TodPunk | admittedly it did take a number of years of work to get to that point, though |
| 15:57.53 | aeryndunham | I'm not good with most insects, really |
| 15:58.07 | SunSparc | That reminds me of the one Ted Talk about overcoming fear by facing the fear repeatedly. Good talk. He talked about walking into spider webs if you are afraid of spiders. |
| 15:58.31 | aeryndunham | there are also lizards here everywhere; I'd much rather lizards break into my apartment |
| 15:59.08 | SunSparc | Oh yeah, it was Commander Chris Hadfield. Such a cool guy. https://www.ted.com/talks/chris_hadfield_what_i_learned_from_going_blind_in_space |
| 15:59.30 | SunSparc | aeryndunham: Well yeah, lizards eat bugs. :) |
| 15:59.33 | aeryndunham | will definitely not be walking into any spider webs |
| 15:59.44 | aeryndunham | SunSparc: Perfect! |
| 15:59.49 | SunSparc | :D |
| 16:00.43 | aeryndunham | We had lunch at this Cuban cafe last weekend, right on the beach, and it was overrun with iguanas |
| 16:00.45 | aeryndunham | was prettty cool |
| 16:01.28 | spangborn | Hm, Ancestry headhunter coming after me |
| 16:01.41 | spangborn | Somehow found an e-mail I don't use particularly often |
| 16:02.14 | aeryndunham | Ancestry... headhunter? |
| 16:02.20 | spangborn | Recruiter |
| 16:02.34 | programmerq | Ancestry.com is headquartered here in utah. |
| 16:02.35 | SunSparc | aeryndunham: That sounds cool. Makes me miss the beach. |
| 16:02.44 | spangborn | Looking for a security engineer (something I happen do be doing currently) |
| 16:02.47 | aeryndunham | ahh |
| 16:03.19 | aeryndunham | You're right, I knew it was in Utah |
| 16:03.25 | spangborn | Lehi, it looks like |
| 16:04.08 | SunSparc | ~hunt spangborn for bounty |
| 16:04.08 | infobot | ACTION grabs a truncheon and begins stalking spangborn for bounty |
| 16:04.21 | spangborn | haha |
| 16:04.44 | SunSparc | :) |
| 16:05.19 | spangborn | I'm impressed when a recruiter actually understands the work I do |
| 16:05.34 | spangborn | Given that the area of web development I work in is a bit of a niche |
| 16:06.07 | spangborn | I find most recruiters just do keyword searches on resumes and blast out irrelevant job listings |
| 16:06.15 | spangborn | Or don't even specify what the job is at all |
| 16:06.46 | aeryndunham | ... we can't find the bug in the room now and my boyfriend thinks I'm insane |
| 16:07.12 | SunSparc | Is the window still open? |
| 16:08.24 | aeryndunham | Yeah, but very little, and the blinds were closed, so I'm impressed if it managed to get back out that way |
| 16:11.17 | manithree | grew up in GA and loves the lack of insects and arachnids in UT |
| 16:17.16 | SunSparc | Tropical weather comes at a cost. |
| 16:25.45 | TodPunk | https://stateofprogress.blog/choose-sql-d017cfc08870#.3xyoqclbh |
| 16:29.26 | spangborn | Weee evacuated from my building in Boston |
| 16:29.54 | jlp_znc | what's going on in Boston, spangborn? |
| 16:30.11 | spangborn | I dunno. Could just be a fire in the building |
| 16:30.25 | spangborn | Three Boston FD engines rolled up |
| 16:33.45 | spangborn | No fry sauce at Five Guys in Boston :( |
| 16:34.09 | SunSparc | Just ask for some mayo and then mix it yourself with some ketchup ;) |
| 16:34.11 | manithree | TodPunk: That sql article is satire, right? |
| 16:34.19 | TodPunk | It is not. |
| 16:34.23 | SunSparc | manithree: I was wondering the same. |
| 16:36.11 | TodPunk | In all seriousness, choosing a NoSQL database like Mongo is usually a poor choice. NoSQL has its place, but as a replacement for the realities of a business application datastore, it is not something that should have ever been considered |
| 16:36.13 | manithree | I had to stop when I got to this: "MySQL is being used from top-traffic websites like Facebook and Twitter, to high traffic websites like GitHub and Basecamp and almost every PHP installation out there. If this is not scaling, then what is it?" |
| 16:36.48 | TodPunk | The math, which was all done 40 years ago (mostly by Cobb), has never changed on this either |
| 16:37.06 | manithree | TodPunk: I agree, there are lots of misapplications of Mongo |
| 16:37.54 | TodPunk | If you just want to run some long-term aggregate evaluations over large datasets that you'll largely process and throw away quickly, this is where NoSQL dbs are often a good fit |
| 16:38.55 | frostyfrog | or if you want to store medical records and generate medical reports and such >_> |
| 16:39.48 | TodPunk | That would very often be far better served with a relational database with an appropriate interchange formate |
| 16:40.19 | TodPunk | probably XML, to be honest, because those systems will natively support XML more often than not |
| 16:40.27 | frostyfrog | It's a difficult problem to get that data to fit in a relational database. |
| 16:40.47 | frostyfrog | Yeah, we're using NoSQL with XML as the storage format. |
| 16:41.56 | TodPunk | It absolutely is not any more difficult than any other kind of data |
| 16:42.10 | TodPunk | I will agree that it is hard to be consistent with your data like such a database requires |
| 16:42.13 | TodPunk | but that's kind of the point |
| 16:42.20 | TodPunk | NoSQL lets you be lazy, to your peril |
| 16:42.56 | TodPunk | frankly with HIPPA, I'm surprised that laziness would even be allowed, because it will bite later |
| 16:42.58 | frostyfrog | Well, apparently the medical industry isn't consistent between facilities, let alone between states. |
| 16:43.06 | TodPunk | It's not supposed to be |
| 16:43.09 | TodPunk | hence the interchange format |
| 16:43.14 | frostyfrog | HL7? |
| 16:43.18 | TodPunk | YOUR facility should be consistent |
| 16:43.26 | TodPunk | that's all you should ever try to maintain |
| 16:43.40 | TodPunk | the interchange protocol could be standardized between them all, but that is hard to get everyone to agree to |
| 16:43.53 | frostyfrog | ^ |
| 16:44.54 | TodPunk | (That's also pretty much every industry) |
| 16:45.49 | frostyfrog | scrolls up to remember what was said about the UV5R yesterday... |
| 16:45.55 | beelzebob | hey manithree, I grew up in UT and am now in GA - looking forward to discovering insects and arachnids ;) |
| 16:53.22 | *** join/#utah youtah (~Jeff@67.139.187.132) |
| 17:00.02 | TodPunk | frostyfrog: it's also probably worth saying that legacy systems are going to just compound the problem, not because A or B is the right choice, but because A or B was chosen long before and there's no way we're going to convert the mainframe data to postgres without an act of god. The landscape was also quite different before the 70s when a lot of such systems were made |
| 17:01.18 | TodPunk | but if you're using a column delimited nonsense, that is easy to convert, but the interface they're using (probably some terminal app) is not going to translate well because everyone will say "oh, put it in a website" and that's a step backwards |
| 17:01.38 | TodPunk | so it just gets hairy |
| 17:09.55 | spangborn | Ah, I remember my days of NoSQL |
| 17:10.02 | spangborn | MarkLogic gave me PTSD |
| 17:10.17 | RyanE | -/clear |
| 17:10.20 | RyanE | or not |
| 17:10.32 | RyanE | HIPAA and HL7 are a nightmare. |
| 17:11.06 | spangborn | I'm grateful for not having to do MarkLogic anymore and not having to work for the large religious organization that used it |
| 17:14.40 | manithree | beelzebob: and humidity |
| 17:33.09 | beelzebob | that too! getting a dose of that and heat today - where did you grow up? |
| 17:33.19 | SunSparc | HL7?! I still need to finish all the HL2 episodes. |
| 17:33.24 | manithree | Villa Rica. Where are you? |
| 17:34.02 | beelzebob | I'm in Athens (at UGA) |
| 17:34.28 | manithree | How 'bout them dawgs |
| 17:34.41 | beelzebob | yup :) |
| 17:35.17 | beelzebob | how 'bout them? I'm not sure if there is an expected response, I'm stil an outsider |
| 17:36.05 | manithree | I think the only proper response is something like "I tell you what!" |
| 17:36.18 | beelzebob | haha |
| 17:37.25 | manithree | Or maybe some commentary about Herschel Walker (it's been a long time since I lived in GA) |
| 17:40.30 | beelzebob | hm. TIL about Herschel Walker |
| 18:20.34 | levi | TodPunk: There's going to be a non-trivial number of medical databases that are still in MUMPS, too. |
| 18:20.42 | TodPunk | yes |
| 18:20.45 | TodPunk | and how |
| 18:27.47 | levi | All you people whining about various technologies--look at MUMPS for a while and be grateful you have not had to use it. :P |
| 18:29.10 | TodPunk | This is the one referred to, btw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS |
| 18:47.19 | levi | MUMPS is like if you took MongoDb back to 1977 and tried to fit it in a PDP-7 and the only language you knew was a really simplistic early BASIC. |
| 18:48.29 | beelzebob | lets hope it doesn't experience a resurgence with the anti-vaxxer movement |
| 18:49.02 | TodPunk | i c wut u did there |
| 18:49.23 | beelzebob | bows |
| 18:55.07 | levi | It was actually based on a language called JOSS, which was invented in the same general time period as BASIC and had some stuff in common with it. |
| 19:00.41 | beelzebob | First appeared1966; 51 years ago |
| 19:00.44 | beelzebob | quite a legacy |
| 19:02.26 | levi | I don't want to crap all over these early languages themselves, as they were frankly pretty amazing and cutting edge stuff at the time of their invention. But MUMPS as practiced today is practically the definition of the ridiculously terrible legacy code base. The original constraints led to a certain design for the implementation, which led to certain quirks of usage, which led to lots of really terrible, |
| 19:02.28 | levi | unreadable code. |
| 19:04.29 | beelzebob | I imagine coders working on legacy systems are largely anthropologists |
| 19:04.59 | levi | Pretty much all code for 60s minicomputers was terrible and unreadable by today's standards, largely because you typically had to pay for compute time and obfuscating your code to hell to make it run faster was considered a pretty good trade-off. |
| 19:05.21 | TodPunk | it measurably was a good trade-off in many cases |
| 19:05.27 | TodPunk | but it led to bad habits over time |
| 19:05.52 | TodPunk | preamature optimization, delicious |
| 19:05.58 | levi | None of these programs were very *big*, because big programs didn't fit, so you could usually still figure them out. |
| 19:05.59 | TodPunk | premature* |
| 19:08.29 | levi | These were the days of magnetic drum storage and main memory sewn together as arrays of little magnetic toroids. |
| 19:11.04 | *** join/#utah RobertReynolds (~RobertRey@128.187.116.9) |
| 19:15.04 | levi | If you've never read The Story of Mel, here's a treat for you: http://www.jamesseibel.com/blog/story-of-mel-explained |
| 19:33.13 | levi | So, JOSS was not just a language, it was an entire timeshared operating system built around interactive program execution. Pretty impressive stuff, considering. |
| 19:37.01 | beelzebob | thanks for the read about Mel, levi |
| 19:48.17 | levi | Certainly Mel was not a *typical* programmer of the day, but an extreme example of the archetype. And self-modifying assembly code and the "constant trick" were certainly not unheard of throughout minicomputer and early microcomputer coding. |
| 19:50.53 | levi | A much more recent example of clever use of self-optimizing code can be found here: http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/index.html |
| 20:04.56 | *** join/#utah aarobc (uid151482@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ruazhgkduivbxlpl) |
| 20:13.42 | beelzebob | "Currently, the Quamachine uses a 68030 processor rated for 33 MHz, but running at 50MHz, thanks to a homebrew clock circuit, special memory decoding tricks, a higher-than-spec operating voltage, and an ice-cube to cool the processor." |
| 20:14.57 | beelzebob | color me impressed |
| 20:32.39 | spangborn | An ice cube, heh |
| 20:46.17 | frostyfrog | Works great in antarctica, I presume. |
| 21:04.24 | Migs | Random recollection. I just remembered this girl I used to chat with on IRC over 20 years ago, when I was 16 or 17. She lived in Utah, too, and her name was Reese. She wasn't bad looking. She shared a photo of herself once with some friends, including a cute blonde girl named Kris. One time Kris came on with Reese and chatted with me, too. For some reason, I got infatuated with Kris, and tried |
| 21:04.24 | Migs | to mail some presents to Kris through Reese. I remember Reese putting up with this for awhile, but finally getting mad about how I was giving all the attention to her friend. She totally was into me, but I blew it. |
| 21:04.40 | Migs | I was in the bathroom doing my business and just remembered that for some reason and cringed |
| 21:07.25 | spangborn | lol |
| 21:08.01 | Migs | I remember Kris liked elephants (according to Reese...I even asked her what Kris liked), but only with the trunk up, so one of the gifts her a stuffed elephant with a raised trunk. |
| 21:08.19 | Migs | in hindsight, there were several girls in high school that were into me, and was oblivious |
| 21:08.32 | Migs | instead I just hung out in the math teacher's room after school playing chess with my friends |
| 21:09.19 | Migs | Magic the Gathering, too |
| 21:12.27 | spangborn | Women are trouble anyway |
| 21:13.28 | Migs | yeah no kidding |
| 21:22.08 | *** join/#utah cstead (sid219570@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kvakzwdyulfjpbsg) |
| 21:37.46 | levi | It's hilarious that you just randomly recalled that and felt like sharing. |
| 21:38.25 | programmerq | same thing happens to me from time to time. remember a time when you where younger and you just cringe. |
| 21:39.29 | levi | Sure, I'll bet we all have some roughly similar experiences and that we randomly recall them. Not a lot of us share the random cringeworthy recollections, though. ;) |
| 21:42.02 | jima | Migs: big of you to acknowledge being an idiot without being threatened with having that fact exposed. |
| 21:44.48 | TodPunk | I onced doubled down on lying about my friend saying something he didn't, by telling him to his face that he said this. I don't even remember what I was saying he said. I just remember thinking back on it later and telling myself I would never be able to undo that one. I was 12. |
| 21:54.56 | frostyfrog | knows of no girls that were into them except in like, kindergarten >_> |
| 22:41.39 | frostyfrog | Although, I do recall this one awkward conversation in 5th grade... |
| 23:38.31 | *** join/#utah keldwud (~keldwud@unaffiliated/keldwud) |