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| 02:57.53 | Tene | Hi everyone! I'm not even sure how long it's been since the last time I was in here. Any chance anyone in here could recommend a lawyer to consult about a noncompete employment agreement in Utah? My brother ran into some trouble. |
| 02:59.27 | TodPunk | Tene: I have heard good things about Haymore Law in the Draper area. 801-438-4808 |
| 02:59.37 | Tene | Thanks! |
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| 16:47.58 | frostyfrog | Morning |
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| 17:10.39 | fadein | moin |
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| 17:46.30 | bryceml | Anybody read this? http://bit.ly/UtahSB190 |
| 17:46.36 | bryceml | Any thoughts? |
| 17:48.16 | bryceml | Seems like Utah high schools (mine especially) have been long overdue for some decent computer science classes. |
| 17:48.43 | programmerq | CS in schools sounds like a good idea. |
| 17:48.58 | frostyfrog | sees Silicon Slopes. |
| 17:49.23 | Migs | "Currently, Utah has over 4,000 open computing jobs." |
| 17:49.27 | Migs | where'd they get that number? |
| 17:49.53 | frostyfrog | Reminds me of some chatter I heard on the radio (HAM bands) about companies trying to get out of the Lehi area. |
| 17:50.18 | Migs | why out of Lehi? |
| 17:51.08 | frostyfrog | From my understanding of what I heard, it's because the roads suck. I had also heard that Adobe canceled their second and third expansions. |
| 17:51.41 | frostyfrog | hasn't had time to verify any of it yet. |
| 17:54.23 | bryceml | Domo did a presentation at BYU recently and they said that https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=javascript was part of the reason they are in Utah. They said they hire as much as they can here and then out source whatever jobs they can't fill. |
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| 17:55.26 | programmerq | Interesting: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765620136/Salt-Lake-metro-becoming-tech-hub.html "One out of every 14 flash memory chips in the world is produced in Lehi, Utah." |
| 17:56.02 | frostyfrog | IM Flash |
| 17:56.37 | TodPunk | I'm a bit more cynical. We have yet to teach computer science to college students well, I don't see how breaking them earlier is going to help. |
| 17:56.38 | frostyfrog | bryceml: That's interesting. I wonder if it's related to DevMountain & co. at all. |
| 17:57.31 | frostyfrog | TodPunk: I started in 4th grade. Got a programming job before I even started college... >_> |
| 17:57.53 | TodPunk | Yes, but that's the key. YOU started in 4th grade |
| 17:58.04 | TodPunk | I'm not saying kids can't learn, I'm saying we don't know how to teach |
| 17:58.12 | frostyfrog | nods. |
| 17:58.16 | frostyfrog | I can agree with that |
| 17:59.00 | TodPunk | I started when I was 9, but holy hell if it was in school I probably wouldn't know what I am doing at all by now because I'd still be trying to shoehorn it into whatever process it is they think encompasses all CS |
| 18:00.30 | Migs | no, you have to pick a niche now |
| 18:00.49 | Migs | way back when I was a kid, you could pretty much learn everything if you wanted...there's no way now |
| 18:01.04 | frostyfrog | Oh, yeah. I didn't think of that. x3 Something along the lines of "one size fits all", biased opinions, and other factors. Man. It's hard to imagine the big picture >_> |
| 18:02.32 | TodPunk | Even niches aren't enough. I agree that a niche is basically a requirement of working in the industry, but you still absolutely need to be able to think about how systems work and interact unless all you want to be is a bootcamp level gluer |
| 18:02.43 | TodPunk | (there will be plenty of need for those, mind you) |
| 18:03.09 | TodPunk | But if you get taught the way we do education today, you won't have a chance to explore it that way |
| 18:03.55 | TodPunk | every good programmer is a good programmer because /they/ learned in /spite/ of what they were taught. They understood how things were working and could manipulate them because of that understanding. Their education is rarely even a factor. |
| 18:04.34 | TodPunk | (I'm sure there are a few exceptions where the spark was absolutely some rare teacher effor that got them to think right, but that too is outside the bounds of normal education models) |
| 18:06.35 | spangborn | I work with two architects who are fantastic developers and didn't do more than a semester of college |
| 18:07.17 | spangborn | Education in CS is weird |
| 18:08.08 | programmerq | to be fair, CS and development aren't necessarily the same thing. developers might put CS concepts to practice, but that's not necessarily the same thing as actually doing the science. |
| 18:09.40 | TodPunk | Sure, but that point is not terribly relevant to how teaching CS works today. It's more meta discussion about classifying CS |
| 18:10.29 | TodPunk | The best way I can put it is that software is construction. We teach it like it's chemistry. Mix the right ingredients with the right process and out comes a thing that solves the problem. |
| 18:11.09 | TodPunk | When we teach construction, most people don't need a degree or really much of an education and they can build an entire house or a small office building without too much trouble, can even pick up architecture and project management to an extent, maybe some electrical |
| 18:11.38 | TodPunk | We need an architectural degree to further hone those same concepts (like CS concepts) so we can build skyscrapers, though |
| 18:12.07 | programmerq | to me, that happens at the master/phd level more than at the bachelor level. |
| 18:12.09 | TodPunk | But again, we don't teach it that way, and you sure as hell wouldn't teach architecture to a kid saying "this is how you build a house!" |
| 18:12.42 | TodPunk | Bachelor level gets into it |
| 18:13.22 | TodPunk | it just has a couple years of "recipe programming" at the beginning where you get taught about how to write a while loop (but not what it does or how it works, you have to slog through and pick that up on your own) |
| 18:13.41 | romanovic | Wow, after reading bryceml's remark, I looked at the Google Trends interest for a bunch of other software terms, it's impressive how frequently Utah is in the top spot |
| 18:14.22 | romanovic | often #1, usually in the top 3, and always in the top 10 |
| 18:14.25 | TodPunk | If you go teach first year programmers at college, you will find a lot of that response when trying to coax a student to the solution to their homework questions. "Will I need an if statement?" |
| 18:14.46 | TodPunk | romanovic: no kidding. But Lehi residents complain constantly about the growth |
| 18:15.00 | TodPunk | I'm sure we're not the only city, either |
| 18:15.42 | spangborn | If statement? I just go straight for a ternary operator |
| 18:18.20 | TodPunk | We get a lot of bootcampers at LDUG. These discussions are a constant with them. |
| 18:22.03 | TodPunk | The ones that seem to succeed are still the ones that teach themselves. It's really odd that we haven't solved this yet. |
| 18:24.18 | manithree | TodPunk: You can't teach passion |
| 18:24.52 | TodPunk | Not all good programmers I know have passion. Not saying it's not common or whatever, just saying it's clearly not necessary. |
| 18:25.09 | TodPunk | Hell, I don't have a passion for programming. It's a means to an end for me. |
| 18:25.27 | TodPunk | I write JS and I HATE that language. |
| 18:25.33 | manithree | The passion is what makes you teach yourself in spit of your professors |
| 18:25.37 | manithree | spite |
| 18:26.15 | TodPunk | That's a fair statement. I would call it drive or curiosity. Passion makes it sound like you like it so you dive in. |
| 18:26.30 | TodPunk | I only learned because I wanted to make my own games and that was a requirement. |
| 18:26.52 | manithree | I wouldn't trust anybody that's passionate about js, but driven to solve problems with computers is the common denominator |
| 18:27.36 | TodPunk | "I want to make an [app|website]" <-- more common these days |
| 18:27.53 | TodPunk | "I want to make more money" <-- the most common reason people start now |
| 18:28.29 | manithree | Yeah, I teach some at MLATC, and I see a lot of both |
| 18:30.10 | TodPunk | I'm part of a few gamedev communities, too and it's strangely just as bad there, though. You don't really need to know how to program much to do a game now. Just like making a website is a lot like making a fancy word document (and you can do it with Word, come to think of it) you can make many games without any programming |
| 18:30.51 | TodPunk | Risk of Rain was done by one guy who swears he doesn't know how to program and has done some streams on making a game with Gamemaker without any programming |
| 18:30.52 | manithree | Back to the original question, I'm conflicted on HS CS |
| 18:31.00 | TodPunk | He's incorrect, in that he's clearly doing scripting |
| 18:31.05 | TodPunk | but not much |
| 18:31.14 | TodPunk | ah yes, HS CS |
| 18:31.41 | manithree | On one hand, helping the right people figure out it that's what they want to do is a good thing |
| 18:32.08 | manithree | OTOH, I feel dirty teaching newbs javascript |
| 18:35.15 | romanovic | I felt like my high school taught CS well (late 90s). They used c++, students knew the difference between the stack and heap, and what data structures actually looked like in memory |
| 18:37.05 | romanovic | so when we got to CS in college, even when we were using higher level languages, we grasped what was happening in the machine at a lower level. |
| 18:37.41 | romanovic | and the HS always taught with the goal of sending students to the HS programming competition at the U of U each year. |
| 18:41.04 | romanovic | the AP CS was fairly small, maybe 20 people each year out of 3000 high school students. I'm not sure how well they marketed CS to students as an increasingly valuable skill at the time, I hope they've improved since then |
| 18:49.55 | romanovic | manithree: what do you teach at MLATC? Is JS used as the language to teach basic CS skills, or is it secondary to a more traditional CS educational language? |
| 18:51.55 | TodPunk | manithree: my oldest is a freshman at Skyridge HS (new school, first year they're opened this year) and they work on Windows7 boxes running QBasic |
| 18:53.30 | TodPunk | romanovic: interestingly while I never participated in a programming competition like ACM sponsored stuff, I find that those that do compete tend to learn pretty well about execution algorithms at the very least. This is probably related to the drive manithree was talking about. |
| 18:53.45 | TodPunk | and I wouldn't teach JS to anyone |
| 18:53.51 | TodPunk | ever |
| 18:54.09 | TodPunk | unless they already knew how to program and just needed to get a webdev job like most people, in which case they can teach themselves, ugh |
| 19:01.33 | romanovic | yeah. I think for many web developers, including myself, it started as "I can write software, and now all of these companies will pay me to write it for the web, so I guess this is what I do now" |
| 19:03.38 | romanovic | My younger brother is in some CS classes (SLCC?) for the first time. They seem to be spending an awful lot of time working on html and css, along with JS, while still trying to learn core software skills |
| 19:04.34 | romanovic | He'll contact me with homework questions to get his stylesheets just right, and I wonder how this is even a priority for the class at this point |
| 19:11.09 | TodPunk | I got into web because that's where most jobs have moved and my other loves (Java and C#) were all enterprise bullshit |
| 19:11.40 | TodPunk | plus my networking background helps a lot in web where a lot of web programmers should know more but don't |
| 19:12.22 | TodPunk | I curse CSS daily. DAILY. But it's better than when we styled with extra tags, admittedly |
| 19:12.45 | TodPunk | but god, why can't we all just use XAML for our GUIs everywhere and be done with it? |
| 19:44.52 | frostyfrog | Propose it to standards communities or to open source browsers? |
| 19:48.35 | jholtom | lol, I do not have any love lost for XAML |
| 20:10.02 | spangborn | LOL, so I'm at lunch, discussing the John Swallow case |
| 20:10.18 | spangborn | Without realizing the guy sitting at the table next to me was one of the prosecutors in the case |
| 20:20.07 | frostyfrog | o.o |
| 20:20.14 | frostyfrog | Awkward? |
| 20:20.21 | romanovic | spangborn: did he interject? |
| 20:20.38 | spangborn | LOL very awkward |
| 20:20.41 | spangborn | He didn't say anything |
| 20:20.52 | spangborn | But probably because I was pointing out how poor of a job the DA's office did on a few things |
| 20:32.06 | manithree | romanovic: I teach parts of a "Web Dev" course that's very front-end heavy. I don't actually teach javascript |
| 20:32.27 | manithree | likes enterprise bullshit |
| 20:34.29 | frostyfrog | \o/ |
| 20:34.35 | frostyfrog | Yay, for enterprise! |
| 20:42.22 | unum | I've been telling everyone here for the last 11 years that no one uses or learns qbasic anymore(except us) |
| 20:42.26 | unum | I guess I've been wrong |
| 20:42.46 | unum | my school switched from pascal to c++ my senoir year |
| 20:42.50 | frostyfrog | "What's qbasic?" |
| 20:43.03 | frostyfrog | :P |
| 20:46.00 | jlp_znc | When I was in high school (way back in the dark ages), we had a "Computers 1&2" year long course. |
| 20:46.15 | jlp_znc | Most people taking it were seniors. I took it as a junior. |
| 20:46.25 | jlp_znc | (so 1980-81) |
| 20:46.59 | jlp_znc | We learned BASIC on an HP 2000 mini-computer that was physically across town at the district offices. We used Bell TTY33 teletypes and acoustic modems to connect. |
| 20:47.26 | jlp_znc | Mr Sanford, the instructor, had a list of computery things (like conditionals, loops, subroutines, etc.) |
| 20:47.59 | jlp_znc | He would introduce one concept a week and people would have a week to work on a solution (i.e. a program that used the technique to do something). |
| 20:48.24 | jlp_znc | You could work at your own pace, though, you didn't have to wait until the concepts were introduced to start using them. In fact, he encouraged it. |
| 20:48.35 | jlp_znc | I had the whole year's assignments done by the end of the first quarter. |
| 20:48.52 | frostyfrog | Nice :) |
| 20:48.54 | jlp_znc | The second quarter, he came up with weird problems for me to try to solve. |
| 20:49.21 | jlp_znc | It was awesome. The second semester, I was his aide and helped all the other students learn the stuff they were struggling with. |
| 20:49.59 | jlp_znc | There were only four of us who took the course as juniors... our senior year, we petitioned the school to add a "Computers 3" course, which they did, just for us. |
| 20:50.24 | jlp_znc | We learned Pascal and 6502 assembly programming... Mr Sanford was learning right along side of us. |
| 20:50.45 | frostyfrog | Man, that sounds awesome! |
| 20:51.17 | jlp_znc | It was pretty amazing at the time. When I went to college, I already understood most of the basic concepts and breezed through the first year's courses. |
| 20:51.55 | jlp_znc | I still think Mr Sanford was ahead of his time. |
| 20:52.05 | frostyfrog | nods. |
| 20:52.41 | jlp_znc | http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.minnesota.counties.pine/3110/mb.ashx?pnt=1 <- his obituary |
| 20:53.21 | jlp_znc | it doesn't say anywhere near enough about how awesome he was. |
| 21:03.26 | TodPunk | manithree: like UML diagrams, layers upon layers of abstractions, and meetings like crazy? |
| 21:04.08 | TodPunk | I can see utility to them, but I'd only ever use the 2nd and I'm not interested in projects that require all 3 |
| 21:06.18 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: those kinds of comp teachers are the best. Just "here's a goal, let's push forward, I have no idea how to get there, explore." |
| 21:07.51 | manithree | TodPunk: A few too many Spring abstractions, no UML diagrams, and short stand-ups |
| 21:08.08 | manithree | I like enterprise architecting, devops, lift&shift, etc |
| 21:08.30 | TodPunk | That seems less enterprise and more just deving with enterprise tools |
| 21:09.11 | TodPunk | Spring abstractions just happen because people working in that space tend to overengineer, but that's not necessarily a con, just a place for improvement. |
| 21:09.34 | TodPunk | A few too many is definitely on the nicer end of the usual spectrum, though, in JavaEE land |
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| 22:39.21 | programmerq | https://www.reddit.com/r/Utah/comments/5xc1b0/utah_house_of_reps_has_voted_5912_to_use_ranked/ |
| 22:49.02 | TodPunk | I got my wish and I didn't even know it was a possibility! |
| 22:49.22 | TodPunk | (I don't know if it's exactly what I was wishing for, but it's related) |
| 23:14.23 | SunSparc | needed: one-liner bash command that watches for a file to exist |
| 23:15.03 | SunSparc | Am currently looking at inotifywait, but it seems to want the file to exist, unless I watch a directory. |
| 23:20.44 | frostyfrog | yes |
| 23:21.02 | frostyfrog | That's because it has to add a watcher to the file descriptor |
| 23:22.10 | frostyfrog | SunSparc: ^^ also: it's because of the way this function was setup in C: https://linux.die.net/man/2/inotify_add_watch |
| 23:29.28 | SunSparc | frostyfrog: Does that mean it is not possible to watch for a file that does not exist? Watching for a directory is not what I need. |
| 23:31.37 | frostyfrog | SunSparc: Someone would need to create a command (unless the inotify-tools already do it or someone already has) that will, given a file name, what the parent directory until the file is created. Recursion may also be needed if you're watching a file who's parent directory doesn't exist. |
| 23:32.15 | frostyfrog | If the directory exists, it shouldn't be too hard to hack together a quick C program to do it. |
| 23:34.28 | jlp_znc | what's wrong with while [ ! -e /path/to/file ]; do sleep 1; done |
| 23:34.44 | jlp_znc | (okay, it's more expensive than inotify, but still |
| 23:34.46 | jlp_znc | ) |
| 23:34.58 | jlp_znc | (dig my lispy parens!) |
| 23:35.31 | SunSparc | frostyfrog: Thanks. |
| 23:36.03 | SunSparc | jlp_znc: Yeah, that is the backup option. :D |
| 23:36.28 | jlp_znc | OS X has wait4path, but I don't see that on linux |
| 23:36.33 | SunSparc | ~lisp jlp_znc |
| 23:36.33 | infobot | (((((jlp_znc))))) |
| 23:37.01 | jlp_znc | hmmm, wait4path only checks when the mount table updates... that's probably not what you want. |
| 23:37.44 | frostyfrog | https://github.com/frostyfrog/Renzoku/blob/dev/oldwatcher.c I've hacked with inotify before. This is much more complicated than what you're looking for, but shows (roughly in an ugly way) of how I used inotify to look for changing files. |
| 23:38.10 | frostyfrog | It was also one directory deep. |
| 23:38.29 | SunSparc | What I really want, is for the systemd name.path unit to work probably when I install a package that contains it. |
| 23:39.00 | SunSparc | But apparently the path unit is not popular. |
| 23:39.17 | frostyfrog | One of the lesser used functions. |
| 23:39.22 | frostyfrog | er... units. |
| 23:39.37 | SunSparc | Shame, seems pretty useful. |
| 23:40.32 | frostyfrog | Another lesser used unit is .mount |
| 23:40.47 | SunSparc | frostyfrog: Wow, yeah, that oldwatcher program is crazy. |
| 23:40.52 | frostyfrog | most people still use /etc/fstab instead, from my understanding. |
| 23:41.04 | frostyfrog | Why thank you xD |
| 23:41.07 | SunSparc | :D |
| 23:41.54 | SunSparc | Yeah, there are quite a few units available. All seem pretty useful, but so far I have only needed the .service units, until now. |
| 23:42.01 | frostyfrog | I demoed it a bit at PLUG once. Been trying to build it into an actual program that works well (see the rest of the repo) |
| 23:42.34 | jlp_znc | http://www.noah.org/wiki/Inotify,_FAM,_Gamin |
| 23:44.56 | SunSparc | ~frostfrog++ |
| 23:45.04 | SunSparc | ~jlp_znc++ |
| 23:45.26 | SunSparc | Thanks for the help. I will get this figured out. Hopefully sooner than later. |
| 23:46.13 | frostyfrog | If you need some help hacking something together, holler ;) |
| 23:46.29 | SunSparc | Cool, thanks! |