| 02:01.06 | eightyeight | heh |
| 02:01.08 | eightyeight | hah |
| 02:01.10 | eightyeight | :) |
| 02:01.12 | eightyeight | ? |
| 02:01.16 | eightyeight | ~ie-- |
| 02:01.19 | eightyeight | ~edge-- |
| 02:01.22 | eightyeight | ~chrome-- |
| 02:01.24 | eightyeight | ~safari-- |
| 02:01.28 | eightyeight | ~opera-- |
| 02:01.39 | eightyeight | ~vivaldi-- |
| 02:01.42 | eightyeight | ~brave++ |
| 02:01.46 | eightyeight | ~firefox++ |
| 02:01.51 | eightyeight | ~chromium++ |
| 02:02.01 | eightyeight | ~midori++ |
| 02:02.09 | eightyeight | ~konqueror++ |
| 02:02.19 | eightyeight | ~orfox++ |
| 03:53.14 | jfindlay | ~lynx++ |
| 03:53.23 | jfindlay | ~links++ |
| 03:53.30 | jfindlay | ~links2++ |
| 03:53.33 | jfindlay | ~elinks++ |
| 03:53.36 | jfindlay | ~mosaic++ |
| 03:53.43 | jfindlay | ~w3m++ |
| 03:57.37 | klys | ~slashdot |
| 04:15.18 | eightyeight | i would like to see someone develop a text browser based on the blink rendering engine |
| 04:15.23 | eightyeight | and call it `blinks' |
| 06:05.27 | jfindlay | har |
| 06:06.11 | jfindlay | links/mutt/finch/weechat, what else do you need? |
| 12:01.17 | goozbach | heh |
| 12:01.19 | goozbach | hah |
| 12:01.23 | goozbach | :) |
| 12:01.25 | goozbach | ? |
| 12:01.30 | goozbach | gotta keep in the lead |
| 13:49.27 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@70.89.246.241-Busname-UT.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 14:35.22 | jlp_znc | oh, goozbach |
| 14:35.33 | jlp_znc | ~goozbach++ |
| 14:38.45 | eightyeight | heh |
| 14:38.47 | eightyeight | hah |
| 14:38.49 | eightyeight | :) |
| 14:38.51 | eightyeight | ? |
| 14:38.54 | eightyeight | puts on the pressure |
| 14:39.03 | eightyeight | ~hahstats |
| 14:39.08 | infobot | total count of hah on #utah: 197. Top 3: goozbach -- 83 (42.1%), eightyeight -- 49 (24.9%), keldwud -- 13 (6.6%) |
| 14:39.17 | eightyeight | ~:)stats |
| 14:39.17 | infobot | total count of :) on #utah: 1692. Top 3: goozbach -- 277 (16.4%), eightyeight -- 140 (8.3%), fozzmoo -- 106 (6.3%) |
| 14:39.29 | jlp_znc | hah |
| 14:39.31 | eightyeight | ~?stats |
| 14:39.31 | infobot | total count of ? on #utah: 558. Top 3: goozbach -- 138 (24.7%), eightyeight -- 54 (9.7%), youtah -- 43 (7.7%) |
| 14:40.03 | jlp_znc | he he he |
| 14:40.15 | jlp_znc | oh, there's no hestats |
| 14:40.41 | eightyeight | heh |
| 14:40.42 | eightyeight | hah |
| 14:40.44 | eightyeight | :) |
| 14:40.46 | eightyeight | ? |
| 14:43.24 | TodPunk | Why is systemd a thing? I don't get this at all |
| 14:43.53 | eightyeight | because sysvinit isn't handling modern computing very well |
| 14:44.12 | eightyeight | and, we can do better |
| 14:44.19 | jlp_znc | so, we had an issue with systemd the other day... |
| 14:44.21 | TodPunk | I really don't see how |
| 14:44.37 | TodPunk | I get that init process level isn't my forte, mind you |
| 14:44.46 | jlp_znc | one of our guys started some app up in a screen session, then logged out. systemd helpfully killed it (since he had logged out!) |
| 14:44.51 | eightyeight | well, for 1, we are no longer depending on shell scripts to start daemons |
| 14:44.57 | jlp_znc | apparently, that's the default for systemd now. |
| 14:45.08 | TodPunk | but systemd seems like a project not offering a lot of value while simultaneously offering a lot of "holy hell what are you doing with that knife?" feels |
| 14:45.08 | eightyeight | and, it's highly parallel, which means minimizing downtime |
| 14:45.17 | eightyeight | instead of shell scripts, we have sane configs |
| 14:46.00 | jlp_znc | https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/05/29/212204/systemd-starts-killing-your-background-processes-by-default |
| 14:46.02 | eightyeight | no more SXX+KYY = 100 dependency hell |
| 14:46.14 | TodPunk | ok, it might be better in the init arena then, so what the hell is it doing everywhere else? |
| 14:46.24 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: in screen... |
| 14:46.25 | TodPunk | wtf |
| 14:46.26 | eightyeight | i can list in the service unit file exactly what units need to be present before it can come online |
| 14:46.37 | jlp_znc | yep |
| 14:46.39 | jlp_znc | in screen |
| 14:46.53 | eightyeight | in terms of logging, if you want to still rely on rsyslog, you can, and that's still the default |
| 14:46.55 | jlp_znc | it apparently didn't actually kill screen, though |
| 14:46.56 | TodPunk | notes to not update his server to systemd unless he figures that out first |
| 14:47.08 | eightyeight | but the init system can provide more detailed logs that rsyslog couldn't have access to |
| 14:47.18 | jlp_znc | there's apparently a knob in logind.conf |
| 14:47.22 | eightyeight | in terms of ntp, it's just a siple ntp client |
| 14:47.39 | eightyeight | unlike the standard `ntp' package, which launches a daemon listenin on UDP 123 |
| 14:47.54 | TodPunk | Why am I not surprised that eightyeight of all people has drunk the koolaid? |
| 14:47.57 | eightyeight | even if you don't want it, it's still listening for connections, localhost, or otherwise |
| 14:48.07 | eightyeight | i was a systemd hater initially |
| 14:48.20 | eightyeight | but after having to administrate it, i've changed my mind |
| 14:48.31 | TodPunk | Sure, and you don't do things in the middle ground |
| 14:48.43 | eightyeight | even the Netfilter kernel module is more sane to administer with firewalld.service |
| 14:48.46 | TodPunk | so switching is usually a 180 |
| 14:49.03 | TodPunk | is looking forward to netfilter being more prominent |
| 14:49.11 | TodPunk | iptables is nice and all, mind |
| 14:49.19 | TodPunk | just hasn't really been updated |
| 14:49.37 | TodPunk | well, I guess it has, actually, to netfilter |
| 14:49.41 | eightyeight | Netfilter is the kernel module |
| 14:49.49 | eightyeight | iptables is the user space command |
| 14:50.43 | eightyeight | i gave a presentation on systemd at openwest: http://aarontoponce.org/presents/2016/openwest/systemd/systemd.html |
| 14:51.03 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: I don't get their choice to change the default there |
| 14:51.22 | TodPunk | seems very "my opinion is better than yours" |
| 14:51.27 | eightyeight | so far, my only gripe of systemd, is that journald is slower than plaintext on equally sized log files |
| 14:52.35 | TodPunk | I guess I could just run my linux servers on windows now. Probably easier. |
| 14:52.53 | jlp_znc | TodPunk: yeah, it even ignores nohup |
| 14:53.08 | eightyeight | windows has bash. linux has powershell |
| 14:53.11 | eightyeight | hell is freezing over |
| 14:53.12 | *** join/#utah manithree (~blr@li4-76.members.linode.com) |
| 14:53.15 | jlp_znc | it's like systemd says "hey, I know you said you wanted this to keep running after you logout, but we know better than you" |
| 14:53.20 | TodPunk | cats and dogs, sleeping together! |
| 14:53.33 | *** mode/#utah [-o eightyeight] by eightyeight |
| 14:53.35 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: that seems to be a common theme |
| 14:53.42 | jlp_znc | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11782364 |
| 14:53.45 | TodPunk | To me, this is a giant red flag |
| 14:54.02 | TodPunk | for that is the Windows way |
| 14:54.10 | TodPunk | and if I wanted it, I'd install Windows |
| 14:54.20 | TodPunk | at least they gave you a config option for it this time |
| 14:54.28 | eightyeight | you don't have to keep systemd installed ,unless you're on fedora |
| 14:54.29 | TodPunk | I've read other stories where no such workaround was there |
| 14:54.29 | jlp_znc | but they default it the wrong way |
| 14:54.39 | eightyeight | debian ships other init daemons |
| 14:54.41 | TodPunk | Windows always gives you registry nonsense |
| 14:54.53 | TodPunk | eightyeight: or ubuntu |
| 14:55.00 | jlp_znc | I have no problem with having a knob for that, and even for being able to administratively say "you can't have background processes", but to make it the default? stupid. |
| 14:55.35 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: it's like they couldn't see any precedent for people running background processes in linux |
| 14:55.48 | jlp_znc | "why would anyone ever want that?" |
| 14:55.51 | TodPunk | I wonder where their heads were that they couldn't see things so plainly obvious |
| 14:55.56 | TodPunk | I have guesses |
| 14:56.01 | jlp_znc | my response "um, because unix has been that way since 1969" |
| 14:56.22 | jlp_znc | it's not just that they can't see it, it's that they refuse to acknowledge it after the fact. |
| 14:56.35 | TodPunk | Embrace, Extend, Extinguish |
| 14:56.44 | TodPunk | by the time they've taken over the kernel, it will be too late |
| 14:56.45 | jlp_znc | https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4mbbn9/shower_thoughts_on_systemd_killing_processes_on/ |
| 14:57.42 | jlp_znc | so the systemd devs have apparently asked the screen devs and tmux devs to add support for doing it "the systemd way" |
| 14:58.01 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4mbbn9/shower_thoughts_on_systemd_killing_processes_on/d3x17o6 |
| 14:58.08 | TodPunk | totes eightyeight |
| 14:58.11 | *** join/#utah fadein (~Erik@c-67-169-242-216.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 14:58.23 | jlp_znc | 22 08:56 < jlp_znc > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4mbbn9/shower_thoughts_on_systemd_killing_processes_on/ |
| 14:58.25 | TodPunk | technically correct, of course |
| 14:58.42 | TodPunk | yeah, I was linking to a specific comment |
| 14:58.47 | jlp_znc | oh |
| 14:59.26 | jlp_znc | yeah |
| 14:59.55 | jlp_znc | https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4lh7yv/systemd_developer_asks_tmux_and_other_programs_to/ |
| 15:00.08 | eightyeight | iirc, there was a security implication with cgroups on why it killed backgronuded PIDs on logout |
| 15:00.10 | TodPunk | AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |
| 15:00.46 | TodPunk | "Just binary link all your code with systemd, it'll be fine, and there's cake" |
| 15:04.17 | TodPunk | I can't keep reading about this, it's just so one-sidedly bad |
| 15:04.40 | TodPunk | I'd rather read about the presidential election |
| 15:05.25 | jlp_znc | one last one: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2900 |
| 15:06.37 | jima | why would anyone bring up systemd at 9am? i can't start drinking at work. |
| 15:07.44 | TodPunk | I was linked to a thing |
| 15:08.12 | TodPunk | As I was reading said thing, a familiar confusion came to mind |
| 15:10.17 | jlp_znc | was it along the lines of "what the hell was wrong with init in the first place?" |
| 15:10.53 | TodPunk | As best I can tell, people didn't like writing scripts to change default behaviors in things and wanted a convoluted config file instead |
| 15:11.20 | jlp_znc | because "old and busted" vs. "new hotness"? |
| 15:11.37 | jima | jlp_znc: and yet people still avoid ipv6... ;-) |
| 15:11.43 | TodPunk | I am reminded about YAML vs JSON, except that discussion has some nuance and merit, and systemd is a nice option that went off the rails |
| 15:11.50 | jlp_znc | yeah, makes you a little sad, doesn't it? |
| 15:12.10 | TodPunk | ipv6 is only avoided because it is effort to setup whereas ipv4 is not |
| 15:12.23 | TodPunk | when my mother can set up an ipv6 router, it will be done |
| 15:12.29 | jima | TodPunk: ipv4 is effort, it's just effort to which people are accustomed. |
| 15:13.04 | TodPunk | You can setup a linksys or tp-link or something without ever looking at an IP address |
| 15:13.19 | TodPunk | that's not possible with ipv6 outside a select few ISPs |
| 15:13.22 | jima | that's becoming more and more true with ipv6, too. |
| 15:13.28 | TodPunk | I agree |
| 15:13.31 | *** join/#utah youtah (~Jeff@63.228.192.221) |
| 15:13.40 | TodPunk | but it's not even "mostly" true yet |
| 15:14.01 | jima | the bigger part of the problem is vendors shipping devices with it disabled by default or not capable. |
| 15:14.01 | youtah | your face is not even mostly true yet |
| 15:14.20 | TodPunk | (plus there's lots of web content that isn't ipv6 friendly and the tutorials on how to do this for your average wordpress "admin" are absolutely terrible) |
| 15:14.22 | youtah | How was your party btw TodPunk? Wish I could have come, but I was driving at that time |
| 15:14.43 | TodPunk | youtah: the video game night is this upcoming friday |
| 15:14.51 | youtah | WAIT WUT |
| 15:14.55 | youtah | I can make it then! |
| 15:14.59 | TodPunk | well then you should |
| 15:15.02 | TodPunk | bring family |
| 15:15.08 | youtah | I totally thought it was this last Friday |
| 15:15.20 | TodPunk | well, we've never praised your reading comprehension skills |
| 15:15.25 | youtah | ouch |
| 15:15.33 | TodPunk | you take good photos, it makes up for it |
| 15:15.39 | youtah | lol |
| 15:15.42 | youtah | I am a visual person |
| 15:15.50 | youtah | BTW, for the people following the mesh node project... we have setup the Lake Mountain site |
| 15:15.52 | jima | reading is a visual activity... |
| 15:15.56 | TodPunk | That was my indirect point |
| 15:16.07 | TodPunk | youtah: did you see my bitchin' slip-n-slide? |
| 15:16.11 | youtah | I did |
| 15:16.23 | youtah | I heard it was a "rock"n time |
| 15:16.33 | TodPunk | Two people got cut |
| 15:16.36 | TodPunk | both in my family |
| 15:16.39 | youtah | lol |
| 15:16.41 | TodPunk | one was me |
| 15:16.42 | youtah | OMG |
| 15:16.50 | youtah | Did you guys see the paraglider that was killed this weekend? |
| 15:17.06 | TodPunk | though in my case it was because I was slipping down the hill without the use of the slip-n-slide |
| 15:17.10 | TodPunk | youtah: yes, I did |
| 15:17.21 | TodPunk | poor bastard died as he lived |
| 15:17.26 | youtah | Crashed into the top of a churches roof. Went through the roof into the chapel... right as 9am church was starting. |
| 15:17.27 | jima | TodPunk: a lot of those processes would be easier if key figures would get with the program, but it's not important to them so *shrug* |
| 15:17.29 | youtah | Horrific |
| 15:17.36 | jima | oh ouch |
| 15:17.42 | youtah | how big is the cut btw TodPunk? |
| 15:18.20 | TodPunk | my son's was tiny, just on his knee. Mine was actually many cuts on my back, but didn't bleed too much and scarring is sexy or something |
| 15:18.23 | youtah | http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/877/3qafhk.jpg |
| 15:19.13 | *** join/#utah programmerq (~jefferya@unaffiliated/programmerq) |
| 15:19.50 | TodPunk | For anyone interested in seeing said slide: https://vimeo.com/179617295 |
| 15:20.24 | youtah | Oh! Your pool is open now, right? |
| 15:21.05 | TodPunk | No, that's why I did the slip-n-slide. We had a party for the opening scheduled for Saturday, but inspection failed so they have to fix it, delayed it a couple weeks. This was to keep things positive in the neighborhood |
| 15:21.33 | youtah | Uhg |
| 15:21.38 | youtah | did they say why it failed? |
| 15:21.49 | youtah | they found the bodies, didn't they.... |
| 15:22.11 | TodPunk | I can't go into details until the hearing... |
| 15:22.14 | youtah | we all told you the pool was a horrible place to hide them |
| 15:22.19 | youtah | lol |
| 15:22.48 | TodPunk | jima: I feel a lot of the "key players" are now essentially equivalent to my mother as far as needs to switch |
| 15:23.18 | jlp_znc | who would set up their awning right in the path of the slide? |
| 15:23.32 | jlp_znc | "hey, this looks like a good spot." |
| 15:23.36 | jlp_znc | blammo! |
| 15:23.46 | TodPunk | I'm reminded that my father was once a programmer, then got into management about 20 years ago, and stopped programming much of anything 15 or so ago, and now he couldn't write simple scripts to save his life |
| 15:23.48 | youtah | TodPunk, is this yours? |
| 15:23.57 | TodPunk | youtah: "this"? |
| 15:24.06 | youtah | this video |
| 15:24.16 | youtah | I assume not |
| 15:24.18 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: it's funny, their canopy got hit twice, by the same dude who held the record |
| 15:24.22 | TodPunk | youtah: no, neighbors |
| 15:24.25 | TodPunk | I don't own a drone |
| 15:24.25 | youtah | wondering if you have/own a quda copter |
| 15:24.28 | youtah | quad |
| 15:24.32 | youtah | cool |
| 15:24.41 | TodPunk | His was a quad, yes |
| 15:24.43 | youtah | I just watched his Inversion video |
| 15:24.53 | youtah | https://vimeo.com/155243621 |
| 15:24.57 | jima | TodPunk: your mother is not a key player in ipv6 deployment...i don't think, anyway. |
| 15:25.11 | youtah | Disgustingly amazing really |
| 15:25.14 | TodPunk | jima: she might as well be |
| 15:25.36 | youtah | might actually get something done? |
| 15:26.05 | jima | TodPunk: fwiw, sky broadband in the uk went from 20% to 80% in about 3 months, so it does happen. |
| 15:26.10 | jlp_znc | so we just need a really tall ladder to get above the inversion? |
| 15:26.22 | jlp_znc | plans his new tree house |
| 15:26.43 | jima | jlp_znc: you need a really tall tree...which will never grow that tall because inversion. |
| 15:26.43 | TodPunk | jima: can you think of any reasons why the UK might have an easier time than the US? |
| 15:26.47 | TodPunk | I can |
| 15:27.05 | jlp_znc | jima: there are artificial trees... haven't you seen that one cell tower in utah county? |
| 15:27.22 | jima | if you're making assumptions about geography, i think you're making some bad assumptions. |
| 15:28.06 | jima | TodPunk: and fwiw, the us is actually ahead of the uk by a fair amount. |
| 15:28.24 | TodPunk | it's not geography. This is the internet, after all |
| 15:28.53 | TodPunk | In the UK, they take getting told they're switching REALLy well, on all sorts of tech things |
| 15:28.56 | TodPunk | like TV |
| 15:28.57 | jima | 34% vs 23% as per apnic's stats, 29% vs. 15% as per google's |
| 15:29.26 | TodPunk | that's a good sign |
| 15:29.35 | TodPunk | we have more internet users last I checked, I thought |
| 15:30.05 | TodPunk | youtah: starts at 6:30, bring any snacks/drinks you want, alcohol allowed by drunkedness not |
| 15:30.06 | jima | probably. |
| 15:30.16 | TodPunk | we'll shut down about 2 AM if anyone has made it that far |
| 15:30.16 | jima | those metrics are a little harder. |
| 15:31.09 | youtah | Random factoid |
| 15:31.16 | youtah | has *never* been drunk |
| 15:31.45 | TodPunk | I don't recommend it |
| 15:31.57 | youtah | yeah.... I don't like losing control |
| 15:32.12 | jlp_znc | ~random |
| 15:32.16 | TodPunk | I just let people know because in Utah people are dumb about alcohol, so telling them ahead of time lets everyone know what the rules and expectations are |
| 15:32.35 | youtah | Roger that... I saw your post |
| 15:32.39 | TodPunk | We'll be playing Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros WiiU |
| 15:32.41 | youtah | I thought it was spot on |
| 15:32.44 | TodPunk | ah, yes |
| 15:32.51 | TodPunk | I forgot I did that |
| 15:33.26 | youtah | and I complimented you on your use of "could not care less" |
| 15:34.06 | TodPunk | mhmmm |
| 15:34.14 | TodPunk | It's all coming back, all coming back to me nooooowwwww |
| 15:34.30 | TodPunk | There were moments of gold and there were flashes of liiiiiight |
| 15:59.52 | youtah | Carbonated Water.... Why in the freak would someone do something like that? Thanks a lot for the mess undercover plain looking water bottle. |
| 16:00.26 | jlp_znc | it's called "sparkling" water. apparently, it's a big thing in europe. |
| 16:00.32 | jlp_znc | and probably among hipsters here. |
| 16:00.42 | youtah | I gave it a shot |
| 16:00.46 | youtah | it's horrible |
| 16:00.48 | jlp_znc | yeah |
| 16:00.58 | jlp_znc | see, you're not a hipster |
| 16:01.00 | youtah | I wasn't sure if I was drowning or what was happening |
| 16:01.16 | jlp_znc | if you were a hipster, you would think it was horrible, but you would drink it anyway because, hey, it's "hip" |
| 16:01.23 | frostyfrog | Reminds me of ã©ã ã (Ramune) |
| 16:02.24 | jlp_znc | http://lifehacker.com/three-myths-about-sparkling-water-debunked-1759280798 |
| 16:04.32 | jlp_znc | https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/3i007y/eli5_why_is_sparkling_water_so_popular_in_europe/ |
| 16:05.20 | TodPunk | I love ramune, but just the soda, the gimmick isn't worth the price |
| 16:07.08 | jlp_znc | remember Orbitz? (the beverage) |
| 16:07.18 | TodPunk | yes |
| 16:07.21 | TodPunk | nasty thing |
| 16:07.26 | TodPunk | probably cancerous |
| 16:07.28 | TodPunk | probably |
| 16:08.04 | youtah | We are owned by a French company |
| 16:08.21 | youtah | so they probably bought them for visitors |
| 16:08.21 | jlp_znc | http://www.bustle.com/articles/93475-whatever-happened-to-orbitz-soft-drink-a-brief-history-of-the-lava-lamp-beverage |
| 16:08.44 | manithree | Bwaha - http://www.news9.com/story/32784075/oklahoma-native-american-says-he-was-attacked-over-redskins-shirt |
| 16:08.50 | TodPunk | oh wow, it was made by Clearly Canadian |
| 16:08.57 | TodPunk | which is a good drink I wish I had more of |
| 16:11.57 | jima | jlp_znc: i just used orbitz as a comparison to boba tea last week, actually. |
| 16:13.40 | jima | and yes, sparkling water is big in europe, many restaurants will ask "gas or flat?" (iirc) in response to a request for water |
| 16:14.34 | programmerq | I generally can't do the sparkling, but I had meant to try it once on my last trip to europe, but forgot to each time. |
| 16:15.07 | programmerq | https://www.amazon.com/Ard-Bia-Cookbook-Aoife-Carrigy/dp/1855942216/ - I ate at the Ard Bia restaurant, and now I really really want this cookbook. |
| 16:16.11 | TodPunk | It's only 4 beeleon dollars |
| 16:17.01 | programmerq | It's a big thick cookbook with everything you could think of, and it has measurements in grams so I don't have to do the conversion myself. :) |
| 16:58.19 | jfindlay | ~napoleon youtah |
| 16:58.19 | infobot | ACTION makes youtah his secret service captain |
| 16:58.30 | youtah | woo hoo |
| 16:58.52 | youtah | http://imgur.com/4AqzfKy |
| 17:05.37 | frostyfrog | Huh, found this in my email today... http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd |
| 17:06.41 | spangborn | ~brave-- |
| 17:10.50 | eightyeight | frostyfrog: heh |
| 17:11.23 | eightyeight | that's actually an interesting read |
| 17:22.10 | frostyfrog | indeed |
| 17:24.41 | programmerq | "interesting" |
| 17:24.51 | programmerq | I've become numb to all the negative systemd narrative |
| 17:24.55 | youtah | ~brave-- |
| 17:24.56 | programmerq | there's too much sensationalism |
| 17:24.58 | youtah | ~karma brave |
| 17:24.58 | infobot | brave has karma of 123 |
| 17:26.00 | programmerq | most of the time, it boils down to the person doing the disliking just not liking systemd, but they have a hard time citing _why_. "it isn't the other thing that I do like" |
| 17:28.35 | jlp_znc | don't get me wrong... I like some things about systemd. I just think they went too far and broke the unix model (the model that says make simple pieces of software that can interact). |
| 17:28.59 | youtah | I blame @fozz |
| 17:29.02 | youtah | fozzmoo, |
| 17:29.39 | jlp_znc | systemd's version of grep would be something that can recursively grep things in my source tree, automatically ignore backup and revision system files, and magically color code the output for me in clever ways. |
| 17:29.41 | *** join/#utah romanovic (~romanovic@puritynine.com) |
| 17:29.45 | jlp_znc | oh, wait, that's "ack". |
| 17:29.55 | joshh | i don't like having to remember how to use journald, but i don't mind it as an init system/daemon manager |
| 17:30.00 | jlp_znc | (I really like ack, btw, it totally rocks) |
| 17:30.06 | joshh | and overall i don't know as much about it as i should |
| 17:30.30 | jlp_znc | http://beyondgrep.com/ |
| 17:30.45 | jlp_znc | (if you haven't used ack, you should check it out) |
| 17:31.43 | jlp_znc | of course, the guys who wrote ack didn't manage to get all system integrators to remove find and grep in the process. |
| 17:48.05 | joshh | interesting |
| 17:48.57 | joshh | debian has conflicting ack and ack-grep packages though, with the same description. know which one is right? |
| 17:49.17 | joshh | slightly newer version for ack though |
| 18:05.44 | eightyeight | programmerq: indeed |
| 18:06.01 | eightyeight | programmerq: when you read the criticisms of systemd online, it's hate, hate, hate, and more hate |
| 18:06.16 | eightyeight | it's rare to find quality counterpoints |
| 18:09.12 | jfindlay | the main two are: 1) project creep, 2) a corporate redhat agenda |
| 18:10.05 | jfindlay | they've been put in a position of incredible influence and can't help themselves to fix all the things |
| 18:12.00 | eightyeight | the former might be a valid point, if you can counter with good alternatives |
| 18:12.11 | eightyeight | the latter is the sort of fanboy hate that is the least interesting |
| 18:13.14 | jfindlay | I recognize that you may wish to characterize it that way, but redhat has shown increasing disregard for the community for several years. the systemd debacle is just the latest act |
| 18:23.34 | eightyeight | how have they shown increasing disregard for the community? |
| 18:23.46 | eightyeight | they brought centos in house for dedicated development and server hardware |
| 18:23.52 | eightyeight | and fedora has a very active community |
| 18:30.13 | joshh | truth is the community has a lot of young people who don't care about the unix philosophy, and they like systemd |
| 18:30.22 | joshh | stupid kids |
| 18:30.31 | manithree | get off our lawn |
| 18:30.50 | joshh | us old people are irrelevant now, and we need to realize it |
| 18:31.07 | joshh | all we do by trying to be conservative is holding back progress and getting in the way |
| 18:31.24 | joshh | as soon as we die out the kids will do what they want |
| 18:31.32 | joshh | the world is theirs for now |
| 18:32.38 | *** join/#utah unum (~unum@truecomputing.biz) |
| 18:32.44 | unum | http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/08/22/490847797/why-do-we-judge-parents-for-putting-kids-at-perceived-but-unreal-risk?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160822 |
| 18:32.50 | unum | that's something we've talked about before |
| 18:33.00 | unum | oops, copied the arguments |
| 18:33.20 | unum | http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/08/22/490847797/why-do-we-judge-parents-for-putting-kids-at-perceived-but-unreal-risk |
| 18:33.23 | unum | that's better |
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| 18:44.41 | *** join/#utah fadein (~Erik@c-67-169-242-216.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 18:45.40 | jlp_znc | yeah, we used to discuss that a lot with keldwud's free range daughter. |
| 18:49.17 | unum | "It is basically criminalizing poverty and single parenthood." |
| 18:49.21 | unum | is a line he might like |
| 18:49.40 | unum | but he's gone |
| 18:52.16 | jlp_znc | yeah, haven't seen him much since he started his new job |
| 18:52.37 | unum | I came across an article about a woman who would run to the store across the street for 10 minutes(a possibility in a big city) and she asked in a forum if that was ok |
| 18:52.55 | unum | a whole lot of opinions on that.... |
| 18:53.06 | unum | oh I forgot to mention it was while her baby was napping |
| 18:53.21 | joshh | i started leaving the house for short periods with my kids home alone when they were about 5-6 |
| 18:53.41 | joshh | unless the house burns down or there's an earthquake, i don't see an issue with that |
| 18:54.18 | jlp_znc | we had a family thing that you got your house keys when you turned ten. that meant you were able to be home by yourself. |
| 18:55.15 | eightyeight | joshh: the unix philosophy is largely a myth anyway |
| 18:56.01 | joshh | it's basically a guideline |
| 18:56.06 | joshh | for small cli apps |
| 18:56.48 | eightyeight | re: the `unix philosophy', this reddit user is on-point: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4ycum1/microsoft_open_sources_powershell_brings_it_to/d6nkpxr |
| 18:56.51 | jlp_znc | "back in my day"(tm) small cli apps were all there were :-) |
| 18:57.38 | eightyeight | another: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4ycum1/microsoft_open_sources_powershell_brings_it_to/d6n4bu8 |
| 18:58.19 | eightyeight | last one :https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4ycum1/microsoft_open_sources_powershell_brings_it_to/d6n06xy |
| 18:59.12 | eightyeight | `ls is the IDE of producing lists of file names' |
| 18:59.13 | eightyeight | :) |
| 18:59.25 | jlp_znc | heh |
| 19:00.01 | joshh | but there's a difference between doing a few extra things, and doing everything |
| 19:00.25 | eightyeight | and the argument against systemd not following the unix philosophy is hilarious, because sysvinit is _definitely_ not following it |
| 19:00.29 | joshh | i've had neighbors cats that would always piss on the hood of my car, and shit in my front yard |
| 19:00.30 | eightyeight | it did not do init well |
| 19:00.35 | joshh | oops wrong window lol |
| 19:00.43 | jlp_znc | heh |
| 19:00.53 | eightyeight | upstart actually did init okay, and lennart considered using it as the basis for his init |
| 19:00.58 | joshh | outdoor cat discussion in some other channel |
| 19:00.58 | jlp_znc | joshh: simple solution: big dog |
| 19:01.00 | eightyeight | but it fell short of doing init well also |
| 19:01.48 | joshh | but then your dog has to be outdoors to notice |
| 19:01.59 | eightyeight | on the other hand, i find that systemd does init user space daemon supervisory management very well |
| 19:02.01 | joshh | and in the front yard |
| 19:02.08 | joshh | i guess you need a crew of patrol dogs |
| 19:03.23 | frostyfrog | programmerq: In regards to the systemd thing I posted early, I mainly found things like this interesting: https://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/NEWS?id=2d1ca11270e66777c90a449096203afebc37ec9c#n1224 |
| 19:03.56 | frostyfrog | "replacing the current kernel implementation." |
| 19:16.21 | unum | I'd rather have cats pooping in my front yard than dogs |
| 19:17.18 | unum | having recently used systemd to set up tshark when I had been trying to use an init script for some reason |
| 19:17.24 | unum | I'm a big fan of systemd |
| 19:17.40 | unum | that reminds me I need to set up a cron job remove old packet captures |
| 19:17.52 | unum | I can't make systemd do that for me can I? |
| 19:20.11 | fungus | Yes you can. systemd.timer |
| 19:34.09 | frostyfrog | systemd has a built in cron daemon via the *.timer units. |
| 19:55.31 | youtah | https://twitter.com/msternfield/status/767802545876021248 |
| 19:55.54 | TodPunk | The idea that systemd devs aren't power-hungry assholes is laughable in the extreme. Next someone will tell me Gnome devs love and listen to their users |
| 19:56.39 | TodPunk | Whats-his-face has already tried to control the kernel dev directly |
| 19:58.15 | TodPunk | I can see some niceness to the tech, mind you, but aesthetic opinion isn't technical merit, and systemd configs are just as cryptic to just as many people as sysv configs were |
| 19:58.32 | TodPunk | so the argument that it's an improvement is opinion and conjecture |
| 19:58.57 | TodPunk | the argument that they are actively crowding out every subsystem they can get their hands on is not |
| 19:59.11 | TodPunk | Hell, I don't even hate systemd, I just don't get how we got to this point |
| 19:59.25 | unum | for my use cases, my time spent has been reduced by systemd |
| 20:03.03 | fungus | systemd is better technically than sysvinit, objectively. It's faster and more powerful. |
| 20:04.21 | fungus | Now if you case was to compare systemd and upstart, I might have agreed with you. But sysvinit is clearly inferior. |
| 20:18.37 | youtah | I found TodPunk as a child... http://imgur.com/gallery/L8eieTu |
| 20:18.46 | TodPunk | For me it might be upstart, being a ubuntu user and all |
| 20:19.05 | TodPunk | I'm not well versed on what the sysv vs upstart difference were |
| 20:19.31 | TodPunk | I largely avoid creating custom services, because holy hell that's stupid, just put it in a VM or docker container or something you spin up instead |
| 20:20.05 | youtah | some of us aren't rich like you TodPunk and can afford the VMs.... TodPunk |
| 20:20.05 | TodPunk | I kid on that last one, I can't find a use case for learning docker either =cP |
| 20:27.34 | TodPunk | Some woman is mad at me because she posted to the neighborhood group that essentially the drivers going the opposite way at our bus stop are endangering kids |
| 20:28.08 | TodPunk | I had the audacity to politely point out the law that they aren't required to stop in two situations going the opposite direction that both apply to this bus stop, and linked the law |
| 20:28.40 | TodPunk | she felt attacked, another dude was like "it doesn't matter, common sense, yadda yadda" and then she quit the facebook group and deleted her post |
| 20:28.52 | TodPunk | Moral of the story: nobody can be adult anymore |
| 20:28.58 | TodPunk | least of all youtah |
| 20:29.53 | youtah | lol |
| 20:30.10 | youtah | did she quit the group and then delete her post? |
| 20:30.17 | youtah | or did she delete her post and then leave the group? |
| 20:30.34 | youtah | I dont think the first is possible without rejoining the group and then deleting it |
| 20:30.46 | youtah | although you never mentioned whether or not she rejoined the group |
| 20:31.38 | youtah | btw, you still have that link readily available? |
| 20:32.21 | youtah | and was this in the edge or the tmma group? |
| 20:32.50 | TodPunk | delete post, then quit |
| 20:33.06 | TodPunk | it's just the Edge one, sadly |
| 20:33.13 | youtah | dang |
| 20:33.17 | youtah | I love a good rage quit |
| 20:33.51 | TodPunk | I wasn't even attacking her, I literally just wanted everyone to stay calm and not get into a fight (we've had some fantastic fights before) |
| 20:34.20 | TodPunk | I said as much, and apparently not blindly yes-man-ing is grounds for a ragequit |
| 20:34.27 | TodPunk | kids these days |
| 20:34.43 | TodPunk | (she's older than me, I believe, but her kids are younger than mine, so maybe I'm the old man?) |
| 20:38.03 | joshh | you don't use docker for technical reasons, but to solve organization/engineering issues |
| 20:39.10 | TodPunk | I think in my case I just don't use docker. Full stop. |
| 20:39.57 | joshh | docker is just another way to separate out various concerns |
| 20:40.16 | TodPunk | I keep getting told it's the solution to all life's problems |
| 20:40.52 | joshh | no that's alcohol |
| 20:43.20 | jlp_znc | so, divided highway? don't stop. |
| 20:43.40 | jlp_znc | seems like common sense to me. |
| 20:45.19 | joshh | i don't understand the concept of getting emotional/ragey over facebook |
| 20:45.33 | joshh | but i've been numbed by internet trolls for years |
| 20:45.48 | joshh | and i don't have a facebook account |
| 20:46.01 | joshh | but my wife tells me about drama threads and i don't understand |
| 20:48.24 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: divided highway AND it's at an intersection |
| 20:49.43 | TodPunk | I continue to have one for marketing purposes and because the community's primary communication method is this stupid group until I can replace it |
| 20:49.56 | TodPunk | since I want to influence the HOA, communicating with them is going to be required |
| 20:50.19 | TodPunk | (Nothing sinister, I just don't want requirements on the number of inches your grass has to be, etc) |
| 20:51.06 | jlp_znc | TodPunk: so, does the bus turn on his red flashing lights when he stops there? |
| 20:52.19 | *** join/#utah jima (jima@fedora/jima) |
| 20:52.20 | TodPunk | well yes, he's required to any time he loads kids, technically |
| 20:52.34 | jlp_znc | I've seen some cases where they don't, just curious |
| 20:55.25 | TodPunk | My middle schoolers' last year didn't if he was just waiting for them initially (we're the first stop for this route) so he might have been there for 10 minutes just waiting. Sometimes he'd turn them on briefly while they stepped on |
| 20:55.57 | jlp_znc | apparently, according to 41-6a-1302 4 a, the operator doesn't have to operate the lights if the kids don't have to cross the highway to get where they are going |
| 20:56.50 | jlp_znc | https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6A/41-6a-S1302.html?v=C41-6a-S1302_2015051220150512 for people too lazy to search |
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| 21:06.36 | TodPunk | oddly, I linked I believe that exact url |
| 21:06.44 | TodPunk | shocking how law is referencable |
| 21:07.35 | jlp_znc | isn't it, though? |
| 21:16.58 | manithree | The reason to use docker is so you can type cool commands like "docker kill silly_feynman" and "docker rm jolly_borg" |
| 21:21.37 | eightyeight | i like docker for quick chroot environments to test stuffs, and quick teardown |
| 21:21.50 | youtah | TodPunk, another interesting one that most people dont know about, is that you don't have to wait for the cross walk to be clear to drive through it |
| 21:21.58 | youtah | you only have to wait for your lane to be clea |
| 21:21.58 | youtah | r |
| 21:22.19 | eightyeight | rather than build a full-fledged vm that takes a considerable amount of time |
| 21:22.34 | eightyeight | however, coming full circle, it would be nice if docker would integrate with systemd |
| 21:22.43 | eightyeight | both utilize cgroups extensively |
| 21:22.51 | eightyeight | and linux namespaces, actually |
| 21:22.54 | eightyeight | seems like a natural fit |
| 21:23.14 | youtah | any of you guys ever used pytest? |
| 21:23.42 | eightyeight | i would much rather have systemd as my PID 1 than /bin/bash |
| 21:24.35 | jlp_znc | yeah, pytest is awesome |
| 21:25.28 | youtah | I am just reading up about it |
| 21:33.58 | manithree | I actually like docker for lots of reasons, but the generated container names make me chuckle occasionally |
| 21:40.32 | TodPunk | youtah: is gud |
| 21:40.58 | TodPunk | manithree: I think I preferred the previous docker names of just hex numbers |
| 21:45.02 | klys | systemd seems bloaty and take-over hostile; why let it replace pid 1, the user should be in complete control over pid 1: so I often use sh + kmscon or getty. am a sysvinit fan and would like to branch sysvinit sometime. =) |
| 21:45.18 | TodPunk | user, or administrator? |
| 21:45.29 | youtah | you guys are all forgetting something about systemd |
| 21:45.37 | youtah | it's fozzmoo's fault |
| 21:45.47 | TodPunk | #$^& |
| 21:46.08 | eightyeight | manithree: indeed |
| 21:46.14 | klys | administrators are the only ones with a choice on pid 1 |
| 21:46.30 | TodPunk | "choice" is really costly in some "choices" |
| 21:46.32 | eightyeight | TodPunk: docker still uses the hex ids |
| 21:46.58 | eightyeight | the container names are unique and memorable, as an alternative |
| 21:47.19 | TodPunk | options are good |
| 21:47.32 | manithree | high-davinci OR 74f438d0a409 |
| 21:47.41 | manithree | you be the judge |
| 21:48.02 | eightyeight | enjoys the ones with `torvalds' |
| 21:48.22 | TodPunk | 74f<tab> all the way |
| 21:48.23 | klys | control means choice/rights more than privs/options |
| 21:48.27 | eightyeight | `reverent_gates' |
| 21:48.36 | eightyeight | `distracted_hawking' |
| 21:49.14 | manithree | I haven't installed the zsh docker completion, so I'll take mad_torvalds |
| 21:50.31 | manithree | in real usage, I always name containers, but when I'm messing around/testing, I sometimes don't, just to see what I get |
| 21:50.32 | eightyeight | i'm really, really, really not a fan of them using 172.16.0.0/12 though |
| 21:50.38 | eightyeight | i mean, honestly |
| 21:52.25 | manithree | is easily entertained |
| 21:59.23 | jlp_znc | ~seen goozbach |
| 21:59.26 | infobot | goozbach is currently on #utah. Has said a total of 54 messages. Is idling for 9h 57m 56s, last said: 'gotta keep in the lead'. |
| 21:59.45 | RyanE | can't disagree with that sentiment |
| 22:02.17 | eightyeight | heh |
| 22:02.18 | eightyeight | hah |
| 22:02.20 | eightyeight | :) |
| 22:02.21 | RyanE | hee |
| 22:02.22 | eightyeight | ? |
| 22:02.33 | jlp_znc | RyanE: there are no heestats |
| 22:02.39 | RyanE | poo |
| 22:07.51 | *** join/#utah neanderslob (~quassel@c-50-168-247-73.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 22:42.52 | youtah | flings scalding nacho cheese in goozbach's general direction |
| 22:53.07 | eightyeight | heh |
| 22:53.09 | eightyeight | hah |
| 22:53.11 | eightyeight | :) |
| 22:53.13 | eightyeight | ? |
| 22:55.58 | jlp_znc | ~fling youtah |
| 22:55.58 | infobot | ACTION flings poo at youtah |
| 22:56.19 | jlp_znc | ~cheese youtah |
| 22:56.19 | infobot | ACTION hands youtah a tray of sliced sharp cheddar and pineapple |
| 23:02.58 | youtah | lol |
| 23:02.58 | TodPunk | hohoho |
| 23:03.03 | youtah | hi santa |
| 23:12.47 | jlp_znc | ~santa youtah |
| 23:12.52 | jlp_znc | awwww |
| 23:13.03 | youtah | lol |
| 23:54.24 | *** join/#utah aarobc (~aarobc@2601:681:4c03:d420:a99c:6052:2a54:beac) |
