| 02:43.50 | *** join/#utah Vibrasian (~vibrasian@c-76-23-60-71.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:45.15 | klys_ | goodness hi |
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| 04:18.13 | jlp_znc | keldwud: are you putting stuff in the queue faster than it is coming out? (possibly more importantly) do you have stats on that? |
| 04:19.15 | keldwud_ | jlp_znc: turns out overseas had already written a couple scripts to mitigate it where they dump the cache and delete some unnecessary indices |
| 04:19.34 | keldwud_ | so he showed me where to find those and we ran them |
| 04:19.41 | keldwud_ | it is definitely a memory / heap issue |
| 04:19.57 | keldwud_ | but it is also something to do with graylog getting overloaded |
| 04:20.22 | keldwud_ | I'll be getting the debriefing by tomorrow morning, I'll report back with the actual cause |
| 05:54.04 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
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| 14:24.05 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 14:26.01 | eightyeight | ~brave++ |
| 14:37.53 | eightyeight | RIP Pat Summitt |
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| 15:40.05 | youtah | http://www.extracrispy.com/culture/136/now-hiring-extra-crispy-is-looking-for-a-bacon-critic |
| 15:48.22 | eightyeight | for the devs in the channel: https://twitter.com/AaronToponce/status/747682113386840065 |
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| 17:14.48 | jlp_znc | youtah: so, I assume you are applying for that bacon critic job? |
| 17:15.04 | jlp_znc | oh, you missed the deadline!?! |
| 17:15.18 | youtah | lol |
| 17:15.18 | youtah | yeah |
| 17:15.30 | jlp_znc | bummer |
| 17:15.55 | jlp_znc | I would have loved reading your essay. "Bacon is, like, mmmmmm." |
| 17:33.39 | jlp_znc | followed by five pages of "mmmmmMMMMMMmmmMMmmmmmmMmmmMMMMMmmmmmmm." |
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| 17:56.07 | SunSparc | ~bacon |
| 17:56.07 | infobot | it has been said that bacon is a filling substance which will make you even fatter than you already are... Take my advice, bacon is a food for the gods or for underweight models such as that McBeal chick... |
| 18:15.04 | jlp_znc | heh, "that McBeal check" |
| 18:30.50 | d3c4f | Anyone interested in BSD Jails might want to attend this: http://www.meetup.com/UtahBUG/events/231587686/ |
| 19:04.53 | spangborn | Happy birthday youtah_! |
| 19:18.10 | eightyeight | So, this happened: https://goo.gl/photos/eq43wU9orWfn2oTD6 |
| 19:18.27 | youtah_ | Thanks! |
| 19:21.08 | jlp_znc | but who gets all the fractional pennies, eightyeight? |
| 19:21.27 | eightyeight | they're sent to my bank account |
| 19:21.33 | jlp_znc | you wish |
| 19:28.14 | eightyeight | you know, corporate accounting is sure as hell gonna notice $305,326.13 |
| 19:29.00 | jlp_znc | hey, Peter, man, check out channel 9! |
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| 21:01.28 | youtah | is it legal to let someone go because they have medical issues? |
| 21:01.39 | youtah | I thought that was a no no |
| 21:02.29 | eightyeight | utah is a no-reason fire state |
| 21:02.50 | youtah | It's a right to work state |
| 21:02.50 | youtah | yes |
| 21:03.03 | youtah | however I thought there are federal laws that trump portions |
| 21:04.36 | RyanE | http://bfy.tw/6UxO |
| 21:05.59 | RyanE | Like everything, I think "it's complicated." |
| 21:06.42 | youtah | RyanE, who uses Google Shorteners anymore? |
| 21:06.49 | youtah | Either A) it's a rick roll |
| 21:06.54 | youtah | B) it's a LMGTFY |
| 21:07.03 | youtah | C) I dunno why |
| 21:19.47 | unum | did you LMGTFY yourself? |
| 21:19.57 | unum | oh no Ryane did |
| 21:20.01 | unum | sorry I got confused |
| 21:20.13 | unum | I blame gnome |
| 21:20.47 | youtah | I haven't even clicked the link yet |
| 21:24.34 | jlp_znc | so, youtah, I think they might get in trouble for firing you because you have a medical issue |
| 21:24.51 | youtah | not me |
| 21:24.56 | youtah | someone I know that was let go |
| 21:25.04 | jlp_znc | so first, they'll give you an impossible task and set you up to fail |
| 21:25.16 | jlp_znc | then, when you fail, they can fire you for "not meeting performance requirements" |
| 21:25.37 | jlp_znc | so it takes them a little longer, sure, but eventually, they can get rid of you for whatever reason they want. |
| 21:25.40 | youtah | Their CTO kept complaining about how sick this person kept getting, and suddenly they were let go |
| 21:26.31 | unum | if the medical issue was causing an attendance problem they may be ok ianal |
| 21:26.38 | jlp_znc | and, like many laws, a "right to work" state simply means that you can be fired for any reason at all, or, indeed, no reason. |
| 21:26.48 | jlp_znc | you have a right to work... somewhere else. |
| 21:26.53 | unum | at will means you can be fire for any reason |
| 21:27.04 | unum | right to work means you have a right to work with out joining a union |
| 21:27.15 | unum | I know that because I clicked on Ryane's link |
| 21:27.20 | jlp_znc | I suppose so, unum, but in practice the terms are interchangable |
| 21:27.29 | unum | ya |
| 21:27.58 | unum | a union contract can protect you from these sort of things |
| 21:29.00 | unum | employers are expected to adapt to disabilities, but if you can't show up for work.... |
| 21:29.38 | jlp_znc | I guess that would depend on the "sick leave" policy |
| 21:29.53 | jlp_znc | some places have no sick leave limits... if you're sick, stay home until you're better. |
| 21:30.22 | jlp_znc | most places will move you to some kind of short term disability after you are sick for a period longer than, say, two or three weeks. |
| 21:30.53 | unum | ya, reasonable employers who have an employee they like will work with the employee |
| 21:30.56 | jlp_znc | many places will give you a balance of accrued "sick leave" time, by which they will pay you when you are sick. others just tell you to use the same PTO you use for vacation time. |
| 21:31.14 | unum | but if they're not to fond of someone, and they can't show up.... |
| 21:31.34 | jlp_znc | it's pretty complicated... if you are sick every ether day, say, and your company has "unlimited sick leave", then it depends on if you are able to get your job done. |
| 21:31.48 | jlp_znc | you come in to the office often enough that they can't put you on disability |
| 21:32.20 | jlp_znc | (which is another scam... you have to be "sick enough" to not be able to perform your work, and the determination is made by the insurance company, not a physician who has examined you) |
| 21:33.01 | jlp_znc | if you're getting your work done even if you're only in the office half time, they would have a hard time firing you (although they might want to because if you were in all the time you would get twice as much done as they're paying you for!) |
| 21:33.45 | jlp_znc | hence, the preponderance of "at-will" employment contracts and language in your employment docs that specifically state that they can let you go for any reason or even for no reason at all. |
| 21:35.02 | spangborn | https://twitter.com/Zerglinator/status/747510084691865600 |
| 21:37.23 | unum | and of course this all depends on how the employee was handling thing. Was he visiting a doctor and providing documentation, etc |
| 21:39.47 | SunSparc | ~recursion |
| 21:39.47 | infobot | To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. see ~recursion |
| 21:41.24 | SunSparc | What I consider to be frustrating is that if a person can get their work done in half the time, why would we then expect them to do twice the work? Why MUST we work 8+ hour days? Why not just work until the task is complete and then enjoy life? :) |
| 21:42.07 | SunSparc | Reminds me of, "The 4-hour Work Week" by Timothy Ferriss. |
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| 21:54.20 | TodPunk | In all honesty, I take a pay cut so I don't have to work as hard. I could make $140K/yr at a startup or something if I wanted to work my butt off for 40+, but I'm very tired of doing that for now |
| 21:56.15 | TodPunk | and I oddly fall on the side of the company. If you can't show up to work, I don't care if you're sick, the company needs to survive for everyone working there, not so sicky can draw a paycheck. Get better insurance, start your own company, whatever, but don't bring down an entire company just because of your bad luck (or in some cases stupidity). |
| 21:57.11 | TodPunk | That's the ultimate to me. Does this person provide value? If so, I don't care how they look in the office politics game or if they show up on time or whatever (unless that's how they're supposed to provide value, like a security guard needs to be there obviously) |
| 21:58.19 | SunSparc | Hmm... that could tangent into a discussion of how a society should care for people who are legitimately always sick/unable to work. |
| 21:58.51 | TodPunk | Depends |
| 21:59.03 | TodPunk | In the future of post scarcity, I don't think people should have to work at all |
| 21:59.12 | TodPunk | but that's a good 20-50 years off for any of us |
| 21:59.43 | SunSparc | post scarcity, eh? Is that really a thing? |
| 21:59.55 | TodPunk | In the now, my opinion, harsh as it is, is if they aren't going to get better and aren't going to be able to do anything, kill them as humanely as possible |
| 22:00.30 | TodPunk | Yes, it is |
| 22:00.51 | TodPunk | If you can build shelter and produce food and enough luxury with near complete automation, you're in it |
| 22:01.14 | TodPunk | If you can do so with less than half the population participating, you're arguably at a point where you need to consider yourself in it |
| 22:01.38 | SunSparc | Sounds like you are describing my household. :) |
| 22:02.02 | SunSparc | need to put his kids to work! |
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| 22:03.59 | TodPunk | There's argument to be made there for the current generation. A lot of complaints are levied at the current 20-somethings, many of which I think are unfounded, but honestly more and more of our kids don't have to do anything. I mean, who doesn't have a dishwasher now? They're $100 for a working new one (no features, sure, but whatever). So even the classic "chores" are easy |
| 22:04.13 | jlp_znc | TodPunk: you might change your tune if you were the one who was sick... or your wife or child was. |
| 22:04.40 | SunSparc | Good point. |
| 22:05.19 | jlp_znc | hmmm, these retired people aren't working/providing anything to the world. let's just euthenize everyone at age 70. |
| 22:05.21 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: I realize this may be surprising, but as a broken human, no, I wouldn't change it. Sociopathy can be useful, but it does make me cold. |
| 22:05.28 | TodPunk | I also want to die at ~55 |
| 22:05.44 | jlp_znc | or, hey, how about age 21 (see Logan's Run - the book, not the stupid movie) |
| 22:05.53 | TodPunk | but the movie had boobs! |
| 22:07.08 | SunSparc | Your mom has boobs. |
| 22:07.09 | jlp_znc | it was age 21, wasn't it... I'm not remembering that wrong? children 0-7 were one color, adolescents 8-14 were another, and 15-21 were "adults" with the red flower. |
| 22:08.01 | TodPunk | Logan's Run is an interesting point about population control. If you can have 20 kids safely, then you run out of resources to control them no matter your production rates. You will expand to meet them quickly. |
| 22:08.02 | jlp_znc | then on your last day your flower started flashing black. you were expected to report for the "lottery" where if you won you were taken somewhere to live out your life (spoiler: no one ever really won the lottery) |
| 22:08.03 | SunSparc | jlp_znc: I have not read the book. |
| 22:08.38 | jlp_znc | I think the lottery was called something like carousel, or some such. |
| 22:09.14 | jlp_znc | some people would "run" on their last day, meaning they would try to not report for termination. a job you could get if you were good enough was "sandman", whose job it was to hunt down and terminate runners. |
| 22:09.25 | jlp_znc | it was a better book than a movie. |
| 22:09.32 | TodPunk | SunSparc: an interesting addendum for the invalid would be to make them the responsibility of a volunteer to take care of them, thus making society absolved while still giving individuals the opportunity to be charitable, thus maximizing happiness |
| 22:09.54 | TodPunk | I don't have any data to support if that would work out well or not |
| 22:10.15 | jlp_znc | the error in your plan, TodPunk, is in your assumption that an invalid can't provide anything to society. witness Stephen Hawking. |
| 22:11.00 | SunSparc | If we could just get cyborg bodies working, we could transplant some brains! |
| 22:11.13 | TodPunk | To me it's not an error. You don't have random truck driver's suddenly doing on disability and becoming theoretical physicists |
| 22:11.15 | jlp_znc | brains! |
| 22:11.27 | SunSparc | ~brains |
| 22:11.28 | infobot | BRAIIINZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
| 22:11.46 | jlp_znc | but who is to decide that the truck driver can't paint beautiful pictures with a brush held in his feet after he loses his arms in some horrific accident? |
| 22:12.17 | SunSparc | In this case, robots will soon be doing all the truck driving. |
| 22:12.21 | TodPunk | If they can take do something to add value, the realistic viewpoint is not "well, you had to stop doing one thing, now we put you out to pasture" it's "well, you're already doing this other thing you enjoy, might as well switch to that full time" |
| 22:13.07 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: society doesn't give a damn about subjective stuff. Individuals and sub-cultures do. Those are not society. Hence the "volunteer" option |
| 22:13.27 | TodPunk | Keep in mind post-scarcity this shouldn't be an issue in the first place, this is just in a strapped pre-scarcity situation |
| 22:13.44 | unum | this brings us to the switzerland proposition, which I think is plausible already |
| 22:13.53 | unum | not saying it's a good idea but I think it's plausible |
| 22:13.56 | TodPunk | yes |
| 22:14.10 | unum | we're already providing guarenteed checks to %10 of our population |
| 22:14.23 | unum | what happens if we make it %100 |
| 22:14.33 | unum | you can work and collect your $500/month check |
| 22:14.46 | unum | or you can paint with your feet and collect your $500/month check |
| 22:14.58 | unum | or you can watch netflix all day and collect your check |
| 22:15.36 | unum | and we fire all the people who's job it is to make sure you are really poor/disabled |
| 22:15.48 | TodPunk | It's when you cross over to functional burden that it becomes the real question of "value" |
| 22:16.06 | jlp_znc | but what will those people do, unum? heh, sit back and collect their checks, no doubt. |
| 22:16.06 | TodPunk | Like someone else must feed and bathe you |
| 22:16.18 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: hopefully |
| 22:16.54 | jlp_znc | heinlein postulated a society similar to that... let me see if I can remember the book... |
| 22:17.40 | TodPunk | The alternative is mostly killing off those that don't fit some specific subset of human possibilities, and you're basically making a poorly defined eugenics program at that point |
| 22:17.52 | unum | jlp_znc: I don't think most people would do that. |
| 22:17.54 | jlp_znc | I think it was "For Us, The Living" |
| 22:17.59 | unum | people like to feel productive |
| 22:18.14 | unum | I guess we could look at retirees and see what they do |
| 22:18.19 | unum | which is mostly watch tv...... |
| 22:18.37 | jlp_znc | essentially, the government paid out a stipend to everyone. every year, of course, the stipend was larger than the previous year because of developments that reduced the cost to produce things. |
| 22:18.47 | TodPunk | This is always the issue with "the intelligent rule" type situations, like Atlas Shrugged nonsense. There are no objective measures to this stuff, and the markers change constantly, so trying to put caps on any axis of these is just impossible |
| 22:19.07 | unum | heinlein had strong political views that would shape that story |
| 22:19.19 | jlp_znc | if you wanted to work, you could, and you could sell what you produced to improve your personal condition (or you could give stuff away to benefit everyone) |
| 22:19.37 | jlp_znc | in the story, some dude from 1939 wakes up in this future and is baffled trying to figure it out. |
| 22:19.47 | unum | now it sounds like looking backwards |
| 22:20.47 | jlp_znc | beyond this horizon detailed a similar society (and might have been the book I was originally thinking about) |
| 22:20.56 | TodPunk | Universal basic income or something a lot like it is basically a requirement, impossible as it is, in the next few decades. I have a feeling the transition is going to be more war than politics, though. |
| 22:22.18 | TodPunk | We are, measurably, eliminating most of our workforce, and contrary to popular belief we're not going to "train up" people. It's not like the difference between a doctor and a truck driver is just some schooling and elbow grease, despite what some would prefer to think. |
| 22:22.41 | jlp_znc | in beyond this horizon, there is a minor story line about some guy from the early 1900s who comes out of an experimental stasis field and is similarly baffled by the new society. |
| 22:22.52 | jlp_znc | he ends up re-creating the NFL |
| 22:22.56 | TodPunk | Especially when there are already diagnostic algorithms that are better than most doctors for a huge percentage of cases |
| 22:23.15 | TodPunk | jlp_znc: why the NFL? |
| 22:23.32 | TodPunk | Why not soccer or something? |
| 22:23.41 | jlp_znc | why not? he used to play football in college and he knew the game. the current society didn't have anything comparable. |
| 22:23.49 | TodPunk | ah |
| 22:25.25 | unum | now most of our low skill jobs are in retail instead of manufacturing and we all insist that those jobs should be held by high school students not people with families |
| 22:25.26 | jlp_znc | anyway, you guys should read both those books if you are interested in such things... "Beyond This Horizon" and "For Us, The Living". both interesting takes on society. |
| 22:25.42 | TodPunk | unum: you couldn't live off those jobs anyway |
| 22:25.50 | TodPunk | not with any sort of family |
| 22:27.01 | jlp_znc | ultimately, the service jobs are going to be the ones for people with few skills. and it will be the purview of the very rich to employ servants again. |
| 22:27.13 | TodPunk | yes |
| 22:27.32 | jlp_znc | "I ate at $restaurant the other day... it was extremely expensive, but worth it... there was a human waitress!" |
| 22:28.01 | jlp_znc | some people will always want to work |
| 22:28.26 | jlp_znc | eventually it will balance out. It will be a bumpy ride getting there, though. |
| 22:28.30 | TodPunk | The problem of poverty is, like most simple problems, very difficult to enact a solution for. We have yet to find one, just theorize a few. |
| 22:29.00 | TodPunk | (the simple problems that are easy to enact solutions for are not really problems, just laziness) |
| 22:29.42 | TodPunk | In unrelated news, SQL is a pain |
| 22:29.52 | TodPunk | nothing better out there, mind you, but it's still a pain |
| 22:30.34 | unum | TodPunk: people used to feed their families off of manufacturing jobs, with a skill set similiar to that of retail workers |
| 22:30.48 | unum | the difference is factory workers were unionized |
| 22:31.10 | TodPunk | the difference is we needed a ton of those |
| 22:31.32 | SunSparc | http://i.imgur.com/qdCjV1q.jpg |
| 22:31.52 | TodPunk | every solution to this issue is just delaying inevitables. Unions, minimum wages, whatever. It's all irrelevant in the course of a century. |
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| 22:32.54 | TodPunk | Efficiency will always, always get rid of the workers anyway, in the course of time. No such thing as a secure job or industry, and we kid ourselves as the greatest lie of our era |
| 22:33.32 | SunSparc | for one, welcomes his new robot overlords. |
| 22:33.52 | TodPunk | The hilarious irony is the our homeless (our HOMELESS) live better than many medieval kings and we can't stop whining about how terrible everyone has it |
| 22:34.14 | SunSparc | First world problems. |
| 22:34.22 | TodPunk | Gotta have something |
| 22:34.27 | TodPunk | humans suck |
| 22:34.28 | SunSparc | I guess |
| 22:34.30 | SunSparc | :) |
| 22:34.54 | spangborn | Well-spoken from a cushy office chair |
| 22:35.00 | TodPunk | No, really, psychologically most people do need to have something. Actual contentment seems to kill you. |
| 22:35.08 | SunSparc | spangborn: Yuppers |
| 22:35.28 | TodPunk | spangborn: does the exercise ball still qualify me? |
| 22:35.34 | spangborn | Probably ;p |
| 22:35.37 | TodPunk | Yes! |
| 22:35.43 | SunSparc | TodPunk: True, contentment is a terminal disease. |
| 22:36.07 | TodPunk | a good death, I imagine |
| 22:36.20 | SunSparc | Peaceful, I suppose. |
| 22:37.32 | TodPunk | I just want to fiddle with home automation defederation. Is that too much to ask? |
| 22:37.44 | SunSparc | Whenever I am content for too long I tend to become discontent. Meaning, I find that I need/want something to do. |
| 22:38.14 | TodPunk | SunSparc: the question is, do you DO something, or do you bitch about something to save yourself the effort? |
| 22:38.19 | SunSparc | TodPunk: That could provide value to others, which leads to business proposition... |
| 22:38.42 | SunSparc | TodPunk: Depends on how much energy I have at the time. :D |
| 22:38.44 | TodPunk | Eh, the business often follows, but that's boring. I've done that so much, it's more like doing taxes to me. |
| 22:39.02 | SunSparc | Yeah, taxes suck. |
| 22:39.19 | TodPunk | "We could build a business around this." "Sure... but then what?" |
| 22:39.27 | SunSparc | All the business part of doing a business makes it almost not worth it. |
| 22:39.47 | TodPunk | I absolutely don't mind it. It's just not motivating. |
| 22:40.27 | SunSparc | Yeah, few things are motivating. |
| 22:40.33 | TodPunk | My current business is basically a shoe-in for the next 5-10 years at least, and I can't be arsed to feel excited about it. I have customers, they're happy, I could get more, but why? |
| 22:40.44 | SunSparc | A rapid dog chasing me down... usually motivating, but temporary. |
| 22:40.49 | TodPunk | aye |
| 22:41.03 | TodPunk | Even right now I'm avoiding finding a topsoil vendor |
| 22:41.10 | SunSparc | lol |
| 22:41.51 | SunSparc | wonders when that zombie apocalypse is supposed to show up, that should be exciting |
| 22:42.54 | TodPunk | I think it's more likely to be a resource shortage. Kind of like the "tryouts" scene in Dark Knight, but with cities and such. |
| 22:45.56 | SunSparc | In the world of The Walking Dead, the zombies are not even the scariest thing. It is the other people. I guess that is not much different than now. |
| 22:47.07 | TodPunk | Yeah, in Left 4 Dead's universe, the special zombies are what make working together the least bit plausible |
| 22:47.39 | SunSparc | I only got about half way through that game. Did not hold my attention. |
| 22:47.40 | TodPunk | TWD is kind of weird in that the zombies are still slow-zombies too. |
| 22:47.58 | TodPunk | L4D is a friend game. If you don't play it with friends, it's dumb. |
| 22:48.08 | SunSparc | That makes sense. |
| 22:48.10 | TodPunk | Co-op is the only way I can game (with my family) these days |
| 22:48.30 | SunSparc | Yeah, team games for the win. |
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