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| 00:47.51 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 00:55.26 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 01:00.30 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 01:00.37 | TodPunk | oh, javascript devs |
| 01:00.42 | TodPunk | you make me snicker |
| 01:05.05 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 01:09.25 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 01:12.35 | spangborn | ~ie++ |
| 01:12.45 | spangborn | ~karma ie |
| 01:12.45 | infobot | ie has karma of -711 |
| 01:17.01 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 01:18.07 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
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| 03:42.11 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
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| 15:01.30 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 15:03.02 | eightyeight | ~brave++ |
| 15:03.06 | eightyeight | ~karma ie |
| 15:03.06 | infobot | ie has karma of -715 |
| 15:04.57 | eightyeight | still waiting for the brave team to release 0.10.4. 0.10.3 is unusable (no UI, literally) on gnu/linux |
| 15:05.00 | eightyeight | https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/releases |
| 15:06.17 | jfindlay | but do the ads work? |
| 15:07.04 | eightyeight | do the ads work? |
| 15:07.12 | eightyeight | i guess? |
| 15:08.05 | jfindlay | from what I heard, brave is just another platform to host deep telemetry hooks |
| 15:10.05 | eightyeight | ad blocking by default is the next browser feature to be implemented |
| 15:10.10 | eightyeight | brave is just ahead of the curve |
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| 15:47.23 | programmerq | levi: I've been making my way through that pdf here and there. definitely all kinds of messed up. |
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| 16:50.49 | Randall_Flag | hello |
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| 16:54.48 | jlp_znc | you know, I think the anti-gun fanatics would get more action if they didn't try to lump all gun reforms into a single bill. |
| 16:58.56 | fadein | I think the anti-gun crowd would get more action if they were conversant in gun jargon |
| 16:59.36 | fadein | it would go a long way if they sounded like they knew what they were talking about, instead of coming off as people with a visceral reaction to something they clearly don't understand |
| 17:00.01 | jlp_znc | "the shoulder thing that goes up" |
| 17:00.02 | fadein | that advice applies, of course, to anybody who doesn't like something |
| 17:00.22 | jlp_znc | personally, I have no problem with closing the background check loopholes. |
| 17:00.39 | fadein | I don't think that many pro-gun people have a problem with that |
| 17:01.00 | fadein | but we get painted with the "you want murder and carnage" brush |
| 17:01.12 | fadein | how can there be a cogent debate when that's the level of rhetoric? |
| 17:01.22 | programmerq | I haven't verified it yet, but there's been an obama video floating around a bit where he mentions that the NRA blocks the CDC from conducting research on gun violence. |
| 17:01.25 | Jayce^ | "loopholes" see, that sounds the same.. |
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| 17:02.16 | Jayce^ | programmerq: it's a longer story, back in the 90's the CDC was sponsoring some really really bad studies, about guns as "a sickness".. pretty much all of them finally got recsinded later because they were sooo bad |
| 17:02.33 | programmerq | Jayce^: yeah, I figured there would have to be more to it. |
| 17:02.39 | eightyeight | don't worry. we have a pornography health crisis to worry about instead. |
| 17:02.56 | jlp_znc | yeah, why would the centers for disease control be looking at that at all? is it a disease? |
| 17:03.04 | jlp_znc | is violence in general a disease? |
| 17:03.06 | Jayce^ | basically, during the 90's some groups tried using the CDC as a means to block several things as "health" concerns |
| 17:03.18 | jlp_znc | those guys need to read some of the larry niven known space and kzin wars stuff. |
| 17:03.29 | eightyeight | porn is a disease |
| 17:03.45 | Jayce^ | porn addiction is a disease |
| 17:03.47 | jlp_znc | porn acts a lot like a disease... it is definitely an addiction |
| 17:03.53 | jfindlay | the main point is that NRA effectively blocked meaningful and detailed research on gun violence |
| 17:03.57 | fadein | eightyeight: I can't tell when you're being sarcastic anymore |
| 17:04.09 | jlp_znc | true, Jayce^, I don't suppose there is anything wrong with porn itself... it's the addiction that is the disease. |
| 17:04.40 | eightyeight | porn kills |
| 17:04.43 | Jayce^ | jfindlay: except it was repeatedly used for non-meanifgul, and very non-correct-detailed |
| 17:05.15 | Jayce^ | exits to yet another meeting :( |
| 17:05.25 | jfindlay | ~meet Jayce^ |
| 17:05.25 | infobot | hey Jayce^ :) |
| 17:05.45 | eightyeight | what i have found from the anti-gun crowd is not what fadein is experience with ignorance |
| 17:06.08 | eightyeight | a lot of anti-gun nuts are very well versed in gun terminology, from what i've seen. they're just emotional. |
| 17:06.47 | eightyeight | the discussion should be not "terrorism vs guns" but "terrorism _AND_ guns" |
| 17:07.20 | eightyeight | and i find the porn focus in utah laughable, to say the least |
| 17:07.39 | jfindlay | eightyeight: would you call it an obsession? |
| 17:07.42 | eightyeight | clearly religious congressmen find alcohol and porn more damaging than guns |
| 17:07.51 | jfindlay | eightyeight: s/focus/addiction/ |
| 17:07.53 | jfindlay | :) |
| 17:08.15 | eightyeight | something something religious opression |
| 17:08.40 | eightyeight | responsible parenting vs overcontrolling bubbles. hmm... |
| 17:20.30 | fadein | I look forward to meeting the "anti-gun nut" who is well-versed in the terminology |
| 17:21.11 | fadein | I had a very left-leaning friend whom I persuaded to come shooting with me |
| 17:21.21 | jfindlay | what is an anti-gun grain? |
| 17:21.45 | fadein | after a while he told me "this is actually kinda fun. now I understand why people would want to do this sort of thing" |
| 17:22.29 | fadein | prior to that he thought shooters were sadists who just wanted to kill stuff |
| 17:22.56 | jlp_znc | see, more guns are the answer! |
| 17:26.17 | eightyeight | i own a walther 9mm. and i'm all for stripping the 2nd amendment from the constitution |
| 17:26.30 | eightyeight | imo, gun ownership should be a privilege, not a right |
| 17:27.03 | jfindlay | the 2nd amendment doesn't say anything about guns. It talks about 'arms' |
| 17:27.27 | jfindlay | so, what about swords, bows, axes? |
| 17:27.56 | eightyeight | we don't have a problem with drinking, smoking, drug, sex, porn, marriage, and abortion restrictions |
| 17:28.20 | TodPunk | so, the problem with calling porn addiction an "addiction" is the same thing as calling it a gambling "addiction" because people try to treat it like a substance addiction until it gets codified elsewise |
| 17:28.27 | eightyeight | but we get our knickers in a twist when we start rationally talking about gun restructions |
| 17:29.22 | TodPunk | porn is not an "addiction" it is a problem in some of the population that forms habits that are detrimental to a healthy societal life for that individual, where porn is the focus in that individual's expression of poor habit management |
| 17:29.53 | TodPunk | You treat it like a gamblind addiction where it manifests itself as such, but it isn't really anything to do with porn as the problem |
| 17:30.43 | *** part/#utah taxilian (~taxilian@192.41.95.30) |
| 17:30.45 | TodPunk | There is an issue with forming policy around this subject because there are a LOT of activities that a person can form such a problem around |
| 17:31.30 | TodPunk | so banning one means we have grounds for banning all of them, and that becomes an issue when you start seeing things like eating toilet paper as a common enough problem within the same vein |
| 17:31.39 | eightyeight | i never mentioned banning |
| 17:31.48 | TodPunk | it was an example, lets not fixate |
| 17:32.16 | TodPunk | other policies would include limiting the sale of such a thing to minors, something we can't do for a lot of these activities |
| 17:32.25 | TodPunk | others we already do, like porn |
| 17:32.48 | TodPunk | those policies don't really help anyone with an actual problem |
| 17:35.41 | TodPunk | Honestly if we could get better about access to competent mental health professionals without it costing so much, this would largely be more manageable |
| 17:36.04 | TodPunk | It's ironic that the people that can afford therapy and psychiatry are often the people that need it the least |
| 17:36.15 | TodPunk | (often, not always) |
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| 18:19.03 | levi | Also, it would be helpful to not stigmatize the use of the services of mental health professionals. |
| 18:19.18 | fadein | levi++ |
| 18:28.20 | levi | If people could feel comfortable talking about using the services of mental health professionals the same way they feel comfortable about using the services of physical trainers or whatnot, probably a lot more people would be able to find the right sort of help for things they might want some help with. |
| 18:36.02 | manithree | There has to be a way to normalize widespread mental health care without reverting back to the days of abused involuntary commitment |
| 18:39.43 | levi | Normalization wouldn't be the result of involuntary commitment anyway. Quite the opposite. |
| 18:41.46 | manithree | No, but some proposed federal mandate solutions claim to want normalization, but look more like a return to the bad old days of involuntary commitment |
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| 19:10.00 | levi | Oh, I hadn't heard of those. Doesn't sound very good. |
| 19:10.17 | manithree | Heh. Redwood Drive-in (according to the daily unifarce): Moviegoers pay $9 for two movies and need to bring an FM radio station. |
| 19:11.35 | levi | Heh. How much are FM radio stations going for these days? |
| 19:12.16 | manithree | I think the ones that fit in your car are expensive |
| 19:14.12 | levi | Well, technically those are really cheap; you get them in the iPod adapters that don't use the cassette tape things. But it's funnier to think of full-power FM signal towers. |
| 19:15.18 | jlp_znc | I have an FM radio station that fits in the palm of my hand. it just operates on the 2m band. |
| 19:15.26 | jlp_znc | (still FM, though) |
| 19:15.40 | jlp_znc | but yeah, I don't think that's what they meant |
| 19:39.10 | SunSparc | eightyeight: I would not mind removing the 2nd amendment, because neither the constitution or any law has the ability to grant rights. The right to defend myself is innate. The right to use arms (of any kind) is innate. |
| 19:42.10 | SunSparc | But let's talk about mysql |
| 19:43.13 | SunSparc | If a mysql server has SSL enabled with a trusted cert purchased through a well known CA, does a remote mysql client need to specify any cert params? |
| 19:44.21 | eightyeight | SunSparc: agreed. which makes the 2a odd in itself |
| 19:44.43 | eightyeight | specifically spelling out a right, that has already been declared as `god-given' and `inalienable' |
| 19:45.33 | SunSparc | As I understand, the founders specified certain rights that they felt the most applicable at the time that needed to be protected from the government. |
| 19:45.58 | SunSparc | The who Constitution was written to protect the people from the government that it was establishing. |
| 19:46.11 | SunSparc | You see that all over the constitution. |
| 19:46.45 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 19:47.47 | eightyeight | oddly enough, it wasn't adopted until 1791, 15 years after we had established ourself as in independent nation |
| 19:48.43 | eightyeight | we've already removed the english threat. so it couldn't be to protect ourselves from the british |
| 19:49.03 | SunSparc | Well, even then there were those who regarded more highly the forms of government that were more central and controlling. |
| 19:49.06 | SunSparc | eightyeight: Exactly. |
| 19:49.31 | eightyeight | although, our experiences were certainly dealing wyth a tyrannical government forcefully |
| 19:50.28 | eightyeight | so, it seems it was ratified more to combat an internal threat, than an external one |
| 19:50.44 | SunSparc | Government is the necessary evil that a society creates in order to provide for the common defense of life, and property. |
| 19:51.11 | eightyeight | which means, the 2a was specifically written to have the right to fight existing citizens forcefully, if means necessary |
| 19:51.43 | SunSparc | Correct |
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| 20:12.02 | levi | I'm not sure this is a correct analysis. You both seem to be making strong assumptions about what a very terse piece of text must have been intended to mean, and I don't think you're including enough historical context. |
| 20:12.44 | SunSparc | Probably |
| 20:12.45 | SunSparc | :) |
| 20:13.07 | SunSparc | There will always be more history than what I know. |
| 20:13.23 | levi | Not that the context you are including is incorrect in itself, but I think there's a wider context that might color things differently. |
| 20:14.25 | eightyeight | i don't have time right now to read through the wikipedia article on the 2a |
| 20:14.26 | levi | Or it might end up painting the same picture; I'm just saying that really doing this sort of contextual "what did they really intend?" thing is going to involve a lot more than what you've presented. |
| 20:17.11 | levi | If you don't have the time to do deep historical analysis and a lot of reading, drawing conclusions from shallow analysis is not really an acceptable substitute. Drawing hypotheses to investigate further later... sure! But statements like "that must mean that..." or "it couldn't be that..." are going to be on shaky ground. |
| 20:18.01 | eightyeight | i have time later |
| 20:18.04 | eightyeight | i don't have time now |
| 20:18.25 | SunSparc | levi: I agree, and I have done quite a bit of reading, but there is a lot more reading that I have yet to do. |
| 20:22.25 | SunSparc | What really matters to us know, though, is how we proceed from where we are now. Whether we continue to increase the size of the nanny state or return liberty to the citizenry and expect them to accept responsibility for those liberties. |
| 20:24.09 | levi | I think going back to English law is important, too; that provides a lot of context as to what the prevailing definitions for legal/government words would have been and it's plainly one of the strongest influences on how our government structure turned out, both as a source of things to keep and things to do differently. |
| 20:25.13 | SunSparc | Agreed. Definitions have changed over the past 240+ years. |
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| 22:16.00 | programmerq | 567y678y6y7657yxiy665 |
| 22:16.05 | programmerq | whoops. :/ |
| 22:17.36 | eightyeight | writes down programmerq's password |
| 22:18.50 | jfindlay | zsx%AX+5=9^oc$Lfxp |
| 22:23.57 | TodPunk | ~ie-- |
| 22:24.46 | eightyeight | ~brave++ |
| 22:25.04 | jfindlay | ~napoleon |
| 22:25.04 | infobot | Just listen to your heart. That's what I do. |
| 22:44.36 | programmerq | that is actually courtesy of balancing something on my keyboard while transporting my laptop upstairs. |