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| 03:38.11 | klys | ~slashdot |
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| 17:27.58 | youtah | did youknow that there is 1.5x10^54's worth of calories in a cubic light year of ham? |
| 17:28.35 | romanovic | that sounds like a good XKCD "What If" topic |
| 17:29.00 | youtah | http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=What+else+floats+in+water%3F |
| 17:29.23 | romanovic | Actually there was a similar one. https://what-if.xkcd.com/4/ "A Mole of Moles" |
| 17:29.28 | keldwud | ~wolframalpha++ |
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| 17:33.32 | romanovic | This is going to be a loooong week. We have a devops team overstepping their bounds more than usual |
| 17:39.29 | romanovic | Engineering teams are progressive, but devops team is unreasonably resistant to change. We've survived by using git internally and improving our development builds on our own, but they are fighting back every step of the way |
| 17:39.54 | programmerq | that... doesn't sound like a devops team. |
| 17:40.33 | jfindlay | yeah, usually devops is the buzzword dispensary |
| 17:42.23 | romanovic | what progress we have made is because we publicly demonstrate new proofs of concept and tools to the CTO and the department as a whole, and only then can devops be cowed into taking any recommendations from our dev teams |
| 17:42.36 | programmerq | devops is about introducing feedback loops to better work with developers, legacy it teams, and customers as a whole. just saying "no" is not what devops is about. that's what being a sysadmin is about. (I realize I'm opening a can of worms here since all these terms are so poorly defined. I'll go away now) |
| 17:46.03 | jfindlay | devops is about closing a tin of wormholes |
| 17:49.58 | romanovic | that sounds like a reasonable definition of a useful devops team, but so different from how ours works :( |
| 17:50.51 | RyanE | and opening new ones. :) |
| 17:56.01 | romanovic | ours seems to be about 1) being the middle man between developers and vital build systems, 2) dictating acceptable coding tools 3) dictating acceptable source control use and branching strategy 4) configuring builds for software whose architecture they don't understand |
| 17:58.29 | romanovic | these are the negatives, obviously they take responsibility for releasing products and releases generally happen on schedule. |
| 18:18.05 | romanovic | A few days ago, my teammate demonstrated some end-to-end javascript tests written in Protractor. "Look! These tests run in a matter of seconds instead of the minutes or hours that our manual QA testing takes!" |
| 18:23.58 | jfindlay | if manual tests are part of your long term QA workflow, you're doing it wrong |
| 18:25.18 | romanovic | the engineers rejoiced. the devops team immediately had several questions and complaints about why we are suddenly using this new Protractor thing without analysis and approval by devops |
| 18:26.08 | romanovic | definitely. we have a combination of automated and manual testing |
| 18:27.07 | jfindlay | I always think of manual tests as transient artifacts or source material in a deployment automation pipeline |
| 18:27.21 | romanovic | but 90% of the manual testing could be replaced by automated tests. a lot of our unit tests are never run during a build, because the devops engineers aren't engineering them into the build |
| 18:28.35 | romanovic | and engineers are completely hands off as far as build process. also, our input into the build process is often not welcomed, and they tell us so |
| 18:28.41 | romanovic | it is very frustrating |
| 18:29.17 | jfindlay | sounds like antidevops |
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| 18:50.52 | levi | I'm sure it's also frustrating for devops people to deal with engineers doing random devops stuff with un-vetted tools. But if they're not providing services that meet actual engineering needs, then I blame them for their frustrations. |
| 18:52.35 | jfindlay | well, software is hard no matter where you're working :) |
| 18:54.05 | levi | I end up doing a lot of devops stuff for my group, which has its ups and downs. It's a small group with fairly simple needs so it's not a ton of work, but it would be nice if the company-maintained devops tools were not all poorly maintained and locked down to a much heavier process than we need. |
| 18:56.03 | romanovic | I agree. We'd welcome their input any time they wanted to vet our proposed tools. Usually their responses are "thanks for your ideas, but we do things the way we do them now because reasons. we'll do some research, and if devops decides your tool is necessary, we'll let you know." |
| 18:57.12 | romanovic | and then nothing happens. |
| 18:57.28 | levi | IT and by extension devops is typically put in a really screwy situation as far as incentives and management go. |
| 19:01.00 | levi | They tend to be their own segment of the organization, and they're purely a cost center, so there's a lot of pressure to manage the costs. And then they naturally want to do things in a way that makes accomplishing their organizational goals as easy as possible. This rarely aligns well with providing optimal service to the rest of the company. |
| 19:01.54 | romanovic | yeah. it is unfortunate. |
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| 19:58.48 | shalkie | Hooray! Mug Fabrizios started shipping this week. :) |
| 19:59.30 | shalkie | Just in case anyone else was waiting on one. |
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| 21:49.24 | unum | civ 6 stuff is starting to come out |
| 22:22.22 | keldwud | unum: thank god I no longer have a gaming machine at home :) |
| 22:22.47 | keldwud | so I'm doing this new thing and I think it's starting to work out pretty well. I've been doing 10 flights of stairs 2 - 3 times daily at work. |
| 22:23.08 | keldwud | I have to start training for the 65 mile relay/marathon in park city come october |
| 22:23.30 | keldwud | here it is |
| 22:23.31 | keldwud | http://redrockrelay.com/park-city/ |
| 22:28.01 | TodPunk | does not get the running thing |
| 22:28.10 | TodPunk | plus, don't you still smoke? |
| 22:28.22 | TodPunk | 65 miles is hard |
| 22:28.30 | TodPunk | would die at .5 |
| 22:31.05 | keldwud | it's a relay |
| 22:31.06 | keldwud | team |
| 22:31.26 | keldwud | so we each do a couple legs of like 6 miles each, just depends on the elevation changes |
| 22:31.30 | RyanE | if it's a person every 100 feet, I'm in. |
| 22:32.05 | RyanE | Of course, that's more "Hands Across America" than a race. |
| 22:35.31 | TodPunk | I can take maybe 300 ft |
| 22:35.36 | TodPunk | if I start training |
| 22:36.23 | SunSparc | keldwud: Relays are enjoyable. Running is hard, but worth it. I am glad every time I finish a run. |
| 22:36.51 | SunSparc | ~run TodPunk |
| 22:36.51 | infobot | ACTION runs TodPunk in Windows and gets an illegal page fault, then runs TodPunk in Linux and all the problems magically disappear. |
| 22:37.06 | TodPunk | I doubt that's true on either side |
| 22:51.41 | keldwud | RyanE: that brings up an interesting question |
| 22:51.48 | keldwud | how many people would it take to span 65 miles? |
| 22:51.57 | keldwud | I guess we can figure it out pretty quickly |
| 22:52.18 | keldwud | The average human arm span of a woman is 5 feet 4 inches while the average arm span of a man is 5 feet 9 inches |
| 22:52.30 | keldwud | so let's go with the low estimate |
| 22:53.08 | keldwud | 64 350 |
| 22:53.38 | keldwud | so I'm going to round that off at 65,000 people to span 65 miles hand to hand arms spread |
| 23:06.30 | unum | keldwud: civ v runs on linux and doesn't need a fancy graphics card |
| 23:06.57 | unum | I suspect civ vi will be the same, so unless you're running only pi's..... |
| 23:07.19 | unum | I'd rathor die than run a mile |
| 23:09.19 | eightyeight | unum: probaly will finish book 4 this week. hopefully start book 5 before monday |
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| 23:24.24 | shalkie | keldwud: If your interested in stopping smoking, this could be a good time to try. :) Go run when you start craving. I also found that caffeine helped take the edge off. |
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