IRC log for #utah on 20160411

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00:18.52jlp_znchttp://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4041
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15:03.19keldwudso all this hype about Animaniacs being on Netflix confuses me because I was watching Animaniacs on Amazon Prime for a couple years up until a few months ago when they pulled it. Why is it news now that Animaniacs can be streamed?
15:08.34programmerqI didn't know it was on amazon prime
15:08.45programmerqmy experience with prime is that if it's any good, it isn't included in prime
15:08.48programmerqso I forget that I have it
15:14.03jlp_zncI have the same experience with netflix.  with them raising the price, I'm seriously considering dropping it entirely.
15:20.16programmerqI can almost always find something I want on netflix though. on prime when I search for stuff I know exists it seems to always be paid extra.
15:23.37jlp_zncwhat?  you have to pay for prime, and then you have to pay extra for content?
15:24.05programmerqwell, the content that is included with the prime subscription exists
15:24.13programmerqbut it's mostly meh stuff that I've never heard of
15:24.25programmerqany time I search for a movie, it's non-included content and I still have to buy/rent it.
15:26.29jlp_znccan you buy/rent it even if you don't pay annually for prime?
15:30.10programmerqyeah
15:30.27programmerqthere's stuff that's "included with prime" and stuff that isn't.
15:30.47programmerqsometimes, if I really want to watch a movie, I'll pay the $3 and watch it on amazon prime rental
15:31.08programmerqerr, I guess it's just amazon video rental
15:31.37programmerqI'm under the impression that amazon's streams are at least slightly better quality.
15:31.59programmerqthe 5.1 sound stream on netflix is almost always awful-- full of compression artifacts. for some titles I have to force it into stereo mode so I can stand it.
15:57.38voldemortensenI cancelled amazon prime this year because the only thing I used anymore was prime music.
15:59.05voldemortensenAnd the only reason I have netflix is because my father-in-law put my wife and I on his account.
15:59.55voldemortensenMain I have osmc running on my pi2 and that's done pretty well.
16:00.04voldemortensens/n/nly
16:00.33voldemortensenmainly*
16:28.46unumI think more people have netflix than amazon prime
16:30.19unumthree times as many people have netflix as amazon
16:30.26unumand most people who have amazon also have netflix
16:30.30unumaccording to one source
16:32.12unumwhich is slightly dated
16:32.28unumnew kimmy schidmt episodes this week
16:36.17eightyeighti know people like the "2-day shipping" aspect of amazon prime, but i've rarely been disappointed in standard shipping and delivery
16:36.34eightyeightand i already have a hulu and netflix subscription. i'm not adding a 3rd, just because
16:36.53unumI think we decided to add prime, but then never did
16:38.07eightyeightnever mind the 1984 Big Brother politics the company plays with its consumers
16:39.11eightyeightwhen i purchase on ebook, mp3, etc., it's mine. not yours. mine. you don't get to decide what i do with it, and you don't get to have any control over it
16:39.18eightyeightwhich is why i'll never own a swindle
16:41.31eightyeightrelated: https://twitter.com/j4cob/status/621146540074078208
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16:43.55jlp_znc"swindle" :-)
16:46.51keldwudI use the 2 day shippping *all* the time
16:47.05keldwudI think almost all of my shopping is done through amazon, well, 75% of it
16:47.25keldwudI'm also a kindle fan boy :-p
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16:51.42yukaiakeldwud: https://www.elastic.co/blog/elastic-stack-release-5-0-0-alpha-1
16:57.23keldwudclicks
16:58.24keldwudjfindlay: do you know anybody who is working on saltconf organization?
16:59.34keldwudyukaia: dang. too bad we're using graylog here. I don't think we'd be able to take advantage of the new stuff
17:01.28yukaiayou'll be able to leverage elasticsearch's new stuff.
17:02.24keldwudI will?
17:02.28keldwudbut I'm stuck on 1.7.5
17:03.36programmerqeightyeight: yeah, I don't do the kindle. I have a nook and I sideload my books.
17:04.26eightyeightall my ebooks are either epub or pdf
17:04.50eightyeightalthough, unfortunately, i purchased one ebook from amazon, only to find out it was later drm-encumbered, and past the return policy date
17:09.21keldwudyukaia: I wonder what my upgrade path will have to be like to get to the new stack
17:15.40keldwudwouldn't it be interesting to perform systems work using nethack commands?
17:23.47asochttp://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030911&mode=classic
17:24.19asockeldwud: that one and the few in line show how you can at least make the illusion of doing that :)
18:43.12jlp_znceightyeight: http://the-digital-reader.com/2015/06/25/how-add-kindle-drm-removal-plugin-calibre/
18:46.33keldwudI was going to mention calibre
18:46.40keldwudbut then forgot
18:46.49jlp_znccalibre rocks
18:54.41jlp_znc"pushing packets around"... yeah, that's what we do.
18:56.34frostyfroghttp://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-12/02/namco-patent-ends-allowing-loading-screen-minigames
19:02.47keldwudI wanted to link a gif of curling to illustrate your comment, jlp_znc but I couldn't find a good one
19:03.22jlp_zncheh
19:03.26frostyfrogStripping DRM to protect purchases... I wish I could do so with Youtube...
19:03.32jlp_zncloves curling
19:04.25RyanEfrostyfrog: mpsyt?
19:08.07frostyfrogI'll have to try it, RyanE. Never heard of mpsyt before. I've tried youtube-dl but the files are encrypted with YouTube's DRM.
19:08.45RyanEyeah, you can use it to browse or watch videos, or download various resolutions of them.
19:08.54RyanE(unencrypted)
19:09.02RyanEand it's a CLI app.  :)
19:09.36jlp_zncbash$ brew search mpsyt
19:09.37jlp_zncNo formula found for "mpsyt".
19:09.40jlp_znccries a little
19:09.51RyanEhttps://github.com/mps-youtube/mps-youtube
19:09.58jlp_zncstops crying
19:10.19RyanEpip3 install mps-youtube
19:11.28frostyfrogOr, if using an Arch based distro: pacman -S mps-youtube
19:11.45RyanEshowoff.  :)
19:12.13frostyfrogHonestly, I thought it would be in the AUR instead of the repos.
19:12.35frostyfrogdoesn't like pip due to a coworker's influence.
19:13.58RyanEI don't like coworkers due to coworkers' influences.
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19:35.11frostyfrogSometimes, it's for the better. Like when it comes to security and getting sued...
19:41.10voldemortensenSpeaking of that, I do some side work for a startup who needs to be hipaa compliant. One of the junior devs decided it would be a good idea to hardcode an API key (you know, one that gets access to all the things) into a clientside javascript file.
19:41.41spangbornWeeeeee
19:41.50frostyfrogo.o
19:41.53spangbornSounds like a good time for you to charge more
19:42.40voldemortensenI really should.
19:43.36frostyfrogSounds like they need to be taught about making things configurable. When you hard-code features, the tech-debt sky rockets. :(
19:43.39voldemortensenBecause that mixed with this garbage I found the other day: $sql = 'SELECT stuff FROM table WHERE user_id = '  . $_REQUEST['id'];
19:44.02voldemortensenMade me want to quit.
19:45.12Jayce^well, that and the obvious "you're using php, no job is worth having to do that..."
19:45.35spangbornslinks into a corner as a WP dev
19:45.39RyanEgah
19:46.06RyanEworked for a place that made HIPAA transaction testing software.  In PHP.
19:46.15RyanErun away
19:46.52frostyfrogpats spangborn.
19:47.07spangbornThankfully that's not my FT job ;p
19:47.20RyanEonly good benefit is it was working from home.
19:47.30RyanEwhich hides a multitude of sins
19:47.49keldwudit's because everybody values "self-taught" programmers more than those who have a formal education in it
19:48.03keldwudbecause "I've known people with degrees who can't program their way out of a paper bag!"
19:48.27RyanEeveryone who worked there had a CS bachelor's, and only the UI was in PHP.  The 'engine' was all quite clean C code.
19:48.57keldwudI don't think anybody who has had a first years CS course is going to hard code things unless they have a reason or unless they are extremely daft
19:49.12keldwudI mean, they hammer it into you during your first few CS classes
19:49.22voldemortensenUnless you go to UVU.
19:49.47keldwudI went to UVU :_p
19:49.49keldwud:-p
19:49.57keldwudand I know better than to hard code things
19:50.16voldemortensenThe "advaned PHP" teacher taught the class to do sql like I described above.
19:50.30voldemortensens/advaned/advanced
19:50.43keldwudoh I was referring to the hardcoding of the API key
19:51.05voldemortensenSame teacher had a create a config file and hardcode the database credentials.
19:51.18voldemortensenIn a publicly accessible directory.
19:51.38frostyfrogI found that, after going to a few CS courses at UVU, I was actually a worse programmer than when I started. :(
19:52.03T4rku5lol frostyfrog
19:52.12frostyfrogcouldn't write re-usable code to save their life.
19:52.26voldemortensenOne day I'll get over it and finish my degree because I know it looks good on paper.
19:52.32frostyfrog^
19:52.43frostyfrogI'm trying to get to that point.
19:53.05Jayce^I did that back in the day, just decided to finish my last few classes at night...  still not sure it was a good idea :)
19:54.24voldemortensenI wish I only had "a few" classes
19:54.26leviI had some great UVU CS classes. And a few terrible ones.
19:54.35voldemortensenI've still got 2 years.
19:55.30frostyfrogWell, Operating Systems theory course. Wrote C code for each assignment, then threw all the code away and started from scratch. D=
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19:56.53leviThe first OS class I took there was one of the terrible ones; mostly because it was in the evening and taught by some guy who used to do IBM mainframe stuff, but had recently been teaching finance stuff.
19:57.36leviMost everyone dropped it except the few of us who already knew most of what was in the curriculum and who just wanted to get the requirement out of the way.
19:59.20leviBut in the end, you can't look at CS classes simply as a set of tasks you have to do; or rather, you can, but you won't get as much as you could out of it.
20:01.03leviJayce^: I finished my classes at night and got my employer to pay my tuition, and got a raise at the end of it. Plus I got a reasonable amount of education out of it. So it was definitely a good idea for me!
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20:01.19Jayce^yeah, my employer wouldn't pay
20:01.39voldemortensenJayce^: should've waited until this year.
20:01.56spangbornI just about peed myself laughing at work.
20:01.57Jayce^I had a lot of bad experiences when I tried doing some of those at UVU... bad teachers killed my desire to keep going
20:02.11Jayce^voldemortensen: yeah, about 16 years too late :)
20:02.14spangbornI IM'd a snippet of code to a coworker to send to someone implementing our stuff, followed by commentary on the subject.
20:02.30spangbornThe commentary got copy/pasted into the e-mail to the person implementing :)
20:02.46spangborn"Ta-daaaaa"
20:03.41Jayce^in early '99 had a professor at uvu trying to argue with us that any form of client/server and the web was impossible, and that thick java clients was the necessary future of "the web"..
20:04.32frostyfrogSee: The death of Java, ~15 years later.
20:04.55frostyfrog(In the web, I mean.
20:05.32RyanEIf only it would die everywhere else.
20:07.27jfindlayoracle is working hard on that
20:07.54jfindlayI read that google is considering swift for android, and I hope that that means java displacement
20:11.13voldemortensenSeems like a smart move if people are using swift for iOS already. It'd be easier to do apps for both.
20:11.57leviJayce^: Yeah; there are some good one and not-so-good ones. Fortunately, the bad classes are at least not *hard* and bad.
20:13.06unumisn't putting it in a config file the opposite of hard coding it?
20:13.41romanovicI think that java could have focused more on new innovations to the language, like c#, to stay relevant.  Oracle seems less interested in innovation, and more interested in just going after google for being so successful while using java on Android
20:14.43romanovicI too hope android goes with a new language and platform to displace java
20:18.36jfindlayJayce^: for an institution of higher learning, UVU sure seems to generate and retain plenty of ignorance
20:19.09jfindlayI guess that applies to other universities too, but at UVU ut's just so much more blatant
20:19.11leviOracle is not particularly interested in innovation, they're interested in extracting money from gigantic enterprise software deals.
20:19.45manithreethinks groovy is the future
20:19.49spangbornThey are the Oracle.
20:20.04voldemortensenmy "intro to IT" class at UVU required that I job shadow someone in my field so I would "know I wanted to go into it". When I asked the teacher if I could be exempt because I already work full time in the field he said no. So I helped QA validate an issue and called it good.
20:21.14unumUVU is better than the for profit places
20:21.17leviAn IT track at any university is going to have serious problems.
20:22.32leviThe more your classes are focused on things that need to follow current practices rather than fundamental theory, the more out-of-date and less relevant they're likely to be.
20:22.58unumI asked this before now that more people are present I'm going to ask again
20:23.17RyanEfor the last time, the answer is 'no'!!!!
20:23.22unumI have a neighbor who's son wants to go to dev mountain(a boot camp) rather than college
20:23.31unumRyanE: but this time I'll buy more olive oil
20:23.38RyanEgo ask your mother.  :)
20:23.39leviOn the other hand, at UVU you're more likely to get people with real industry experience teaching than you are at a big university that will be largely populated by career academic researchers.
20:24.09unumdue to my own experience I'm very suspecious of for profit education
20:24.22unumsuspicious
20:24.26leviE.g., if you want to learn C++, you'd be hard pressed to find a better source than Chuck Allison at UVU.
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20:25.01spangbornunum: I know someone who took an iOS course through them and said it was pretty good.
20:25.10voldemortensenlevi: I did like that my SQL class was taught by a guy who worked for xactware. He knew what was up.
20:25.12spangbornIf you have Twitter, reach out to @unculturedswine
20:25.14leviunum: So, we have boot camp groups come to LDUG fairly frequently.
20:26.08voldemortensenunum: I have a buddy that went through dev mountain and learned some good front end skills. But they were mostly in the latest JS framework so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
20:26.43unumit seems like they are the exact opposite of universities, in that rather than teaching you fundmentals and expecting you to the learn the latest and greastest on your own
20:26.45RyanEwhat 'kind' of programmer does your neighbor's son want to be?
20:26.53leviunum: I think they do okay for what they are, but they're very focused on a particular technology and don't get very deep even in that one area.
20:27.00unumthey teach you the latest and greatest and expect you to pick up the fundamentals at work
20:27.03RyanEso, consensus.
20:27.17RyanEas in: "What's a stack"?
20:27.21unumRyanE: that's a good question and something I talked to him a little bit about
20:28.02unumthat route wouldn't have worked well for me at all since I didn't end up working with a bunch of other devs
20:28.32RyanEI think certain people are built to be coders, and that kind of thing would probably end up being OK, if they read up on the fundamentals themselves.
20:28.35unumI read blogs and attend user group meetings to try to learn from other developers, but I think it's easier to pick up on the latest and greatest that way
20:28.44RyanEif they aren't that sort, I think learning the fundamentals in college is best.
20:29.41unumI think the thing that bothered me the most at the place I taught was how they would tell these people that despite having never used a computer before, they would be well paid it professional in three years
20:30.15RyanEyeah, that's deceptive.
20:30.30unumfor some students I could see that career path was going to work, but for most they were just going to end up with a lot of debt because they just weren't a good fit for it
20:30.37RyanEif you live and breathe computers already, maybe.
20:30.39unumya
20:30.41unumexactly
20:30.56levivoldemortensen: I know you're going to get a bunch of frustrating and seemingly useless stuff thrown at you, but I'd strongly encourage you to keep and open mind about your classes and, when they're bad, see if you can mine something good from them rather than just blow it off and get it over with.
20:31.18leviUgh, s/and open mind/an open mind/
20:34.07leviTake the time to get to know your professors and what they're actually interested in. If you find someone who has interests overlapping with yours, you can put together a research project and work on a cool project for credit.
20:35.41voldemortensenlevi: yeah, I've learned some good bits from school. My afore mentioned sql professor knew his stuff and taught some pretty nifty tricks  
20:36.37leviMy database class there was not so great, so you got lucky. :)
20:36.40RyanEMost important thing I learned in college: Which other students were smart enough that I wanted to work with them (or for them).
20:36.43keldwudChuck Allison++
20:37.04voldemortensenand my php teacher was cool. He allowed one page of notes for tests. He also frequently said that a browser only loaded one page at a time so…. :)
20:37.38leviSo, I dunno if he still does, but Curtis Welborn was putting together a class on the *implementation* of database engines, which would have been interesting.
20:39.46leviThe AI class I had with Todd Peterson was really great, too. Nice mix of theory and implementation. Although this was just before the huge Machine Learning boom, so maybe it's been reworked by now.
20:40.34leviI also enjoyed my networking classes with Dave Heldenbrand.
20:41.04RyanEAnyone I had classes from at BYU has either retired or died (or both, I suppose).
20:41.29Jayce^I think allison started just after I left, he made some big changes there for sure
20:41.32romanovicThe U of U definitely takes more of a foundational approach... outside of the intro classes (Java, when I attended), none of the classes or instructors really focused on teaching specific computer languages
20:41.52romanovicthere was a lot of theory, and approaches to programming languages and software architecture
20:42.47romanovicbut we'd start a semester and do .net and c# to write a game, then the next semester jump into c#, then the next jump into c/c++
20:42.51leviThere are lots of CS theory classes at UVU as well. And, at least in the classes I took there, I was usually able to choose which language I wanted to use.
20:43.19romanovicI took a web development elective, and any language you preferred was acceptable for class projects
20:43.21leviI'd taken most of the core CS theory stuff at BYU, though.
20:44.49leviThe U certainly has some historical CS cred, especially in the area of computer graphics.
20:45.23romanovics/next semester jump into c#/next semester jump back to java/
20:47.02leviI used a large variety of languages in my UVU classes; C, C++, D, Java, C#, F#, Scheme, OCaml, Haskell, Javascript, and Python
20:47.18eightyeight12:42:23 <jlp_znc> eightyeight: http://the-digital-reader.com/2015/06/25/how-add-kindle-drm-removal-plugin-calibre/
20:47.37eightyeightjlp_znc: nice! i'll have to look into it. i would <3 to strip that drm off the ebook, and convert to epub
20:48.03eightyeighthowever, i don't have access to a Windows machine
20:48.09romanovicI think that is important, and if the university is providing a basis of education that makes it easy for students to pick up any language and learn with it, they're doing it right
20:48.16eightyeightcurious if it will also work with Calibre on GNU/Linux
20:49.21leviromanovic: Most of that was purely on my own initiative; I think you could probably get away with only C# and Java, with maybe a bit of C/C++, depending on what classes you take.
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20:50.38leviI think *most* places could do a better job of encouraging students to learn a wider variety of languages.
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21:02.33jfindlayvoldemortensen: my graduate QM professor allowed us to use anything.  During the first midterm someone asked him about using the internet or calling someone and he said in his characteristic Russian accent, "You can do whatever you want, but you'll be wasting your time"
21:02.37jfindlayand he was right
21:03.29jfindlayhe created his own problems that were at the right skill level for the class, but were unique enough that unless you had been in the class, you wouldn't know what to do in the time given
21:04.52eightyeightthat was the case for my topology class
21:05.12eightyeightall the problems were unique enough, that you wouldn't find generic help online, if you didn't know what you were doing
21:06.19jfindlaythe higher I got into math and physics, the freer the curriculum became at the same time the subject matter became far more interesting, and the textbook prices dropped until I was using PDFs for everything
21:07.03jfindlayI probably averaged less than $100 for books per year in grad school
21:07.13eightyeighton an unrelated topic, the only posts to the FSLC mailing list are nelson beebe announcements
21:07.29jfindlayis he still at UU math?
21:07.38eightyeighti think so
21:08.09eightyeighthttp://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/
21:11.43jlp_zncnelson will be there until he dies
21:12.33jlp_znceightyeight: I think the actual converter plugin is available on multiple platforms (and probably as source code)
21:13.03RyanEyeah, the De-DRM plugins are based on command-line De-DRM code, from what I remember.
21:13.04manithreeI've never understood programmers who resist learning new languages.  That's half the fun.
21:13.24jlp_znchttps://github.com/apprenticeharper/DeDRM_tools/releases
21:13.41jlp_zncmanithree: you've never been asked to look at ruby, then :-)
21:14.10jlp_zncI'm a perl programmer and I think ruby is obtuse.
21:14.23manithreeI can understand resistance to some languages.  But general resistance to learning ANY new languages is weird to me.
21:14.36manithreeAnd I've done a little ruby.  Didn't like it.
21:14.47romanovicjlp_znc: statistics seem to agree with you... someone put together some graphs after polling developers' language preferences
21:15.53jlp_zncwell, I'm not opposed to learning *any* new language.  I think I'd like to learn go if I could find a use for it.
21:16.38jlp_zncromanovic: http://githut.info/
21:17.04manithreeI'm really trying hard to find a reason for my employer to pay me to write something in rust.
21:19.10romanovicjlp_znc: I don't mean that perl is more popular.  just that linux users, people who use scripting languages, android users, data science developers, all tend to be in the same group (non-ruby)
21:19.14jlp_zncalthough it considers css, TeX, matlab, makefile, and puppet to be languages :-/
21:19.14RyanEyeah, Rust looked interesting at UTOS last year.
21:19.45romanovicwhereas apple users and developers who prefer concise, shiny, readable but maybe not the most performant code tend to prefer ruby
21:19.53romanovicover python or c*
21:20.07jlp_zncromanovic: scroll down and you can see how the usage is growing by project... perl is a sad #15, but ruby seems to be flattening out.
21:21.07romanovicwow, javascript has outpaced java
21:21.20romanovicas far as increase in activity, anyway
21:21.56jlp_zncI am not sure how useful those graphs are, but they are interesting.
21:24.52jlp_zncsheesh, now I'm getting recruiter spam directly to my *work* e-mail address!
21:29.27jimai got my first one the other day, after ~4.5 years
21:30.24spangbornjlp_znc: Ditto.
21:30.25jimait was pretty stupid, because it was for a position in dallas with no relocation benefits
21:30.31spangbornI usually e-mail them back about how it's inappropriate.
21:30.49jimaspangborn: and then email them from your personal address asking for more info? ;-)
21:30.57spangbornHaha, depends on the gig ;)
21:31.14TodPunkunum: Pro tip for your neighbor's kid: just start programming, start attending some local user groups, get a few projects under your belt and into a github repo, and then approach companies.  The bootcamps rarely have any ability to add enough value to be worth their cost.
21:31.36TodPunkThe few people I've worked with from bootcamps that are awesome would have been awesome without the bootcamps if they just knew how to start on their own
21:32.01TodPunkthe rest aren't awesome because they went to bootcamps and usually know it, but a few have unrealistic expectations of themselves
21:32.11TodPunk*just because
21:41.09*** join/#utah shhhhh (~ircap@200.93.119.162)
21:42.13TodPunkunum: alternatively if he needs structure, he's probably going to want to go through an actual CS program unless he really just wants to be the lowest form of code monkey, not understanding a damn thing about what is going on in the code he writes
21:56.20jlp_zncand then he ends up at an interview and can't code his way out of a fizz buzz bag.
21:57.38jlp_znchttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjS8vCKyofMAhUI52MKHS7CA_sQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FHow-should-I-prepare-for-interviews-for-Java-programming-positions-with-companies-such-as-TIBCO-Amdocs-ZS-Associates-and-FICO&psig=AFQjCNEIfTrT0GfhsZ8jYouMxuOefQm7Yg&ust=1460498243212351
21:57.43jlp_zncugh!
21:57.58jlp_zncthat's a horrific url, sorry about that.  let me see if I can get something a little cleaner
21:58.34jlp_znchttps://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-87c69f03b17e0abe82557374d8048f43 <- that's better
21:59.25*** part/#utah shhhhh (~ircap@200.93.119.162)
22:33.42unumTodPunk: that's some good advice
23:31.20*** join/#utah T4rku5 (~T4rku5@unaffiliated/shunkydave)
23:57.50*** join/#utah mellor (ae177175@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.174.23.113.117)

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