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| 03:04.36 | klys | ~slashdot |
| 03:26.50 | jima | slashdot...that's still around!? |
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| 15:29.30 | eightyeight | i'm tracking voting turnout by state: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16dyAbkHwK2feebJMkV8yTxOQ2DgzGIKxrLeqbiy5iO8/edit?usp=sharing |
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| 15:29.43 | eightyeight | AZ, ID, & UT still TBF |
| 15:32.18 | jsmith | What, no Wyoming?!? |
| 15:32.21 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 15:33.23 | eightyeight | it's there. their dem caucus/primary hasn't arrived yet |
| 15:33.43 | eightyeight | 903 turned out for the GOP though |
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| 15:35.04 | unum | so when a presidential candidates says he's going to repeal common core, what does he mean? since there is no federal legislation called common core. |
| 15:35.49 | voldemortensen | He's just being preemptively pro-active |
| 15:36.10 | unum | repealing a law before it's even been written? |
| 15:36.12 | unum | nice |
| 15:36.35 | unum | I'll be back in a bit and read any answers then |
| 15:37.03 | eightyeight | i guess there are some controversy over the voter turnout in AZ |
| 15:37.14 | voldemortensen | Kinda like how the supreme court nomination was rejected before there was even a nomination |
| 15:37.19 | eightyeight | my numbers come from google, who is sourcing the AP |
| 15:38.00 | eightyeight | https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=2016%20presidential%20primaries#eob=m.09c7w0/D/3/short/m.09c7w0/ |
| 15:43.35 | fadein | https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/03/24/someone-wrote-trump-2016-on-emorys-campus-in-chalk-some-students-said-they-no-longer-feel-safe/ |
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| 15:45.07 | fadein | Dear students of Emory: don't feed the trolls |
| 15:45.32 | eightyeight | double-edged sword, that one |
| 15:46.03 | eightyeight | if legit, shows the level of anger and unrest trump has managed to create with his presidential campaign |
| 15:49.21 | fadein | true, but simply saying "vote trump" is a different thing from saying "your people should get out of america" |
| 15:56.59 | eightyeight | http://qz.com/644111/trump-voters-make-up-about-5-6-of-the-voting-age-population/ |
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| 16:18.39 | TodPunk | Dear everyone, your fear is likely invalid |
| 16:23.17 | voldemortensen | vote trump = http://media3.giphy.com/media/ALBfFB6gP1evu/giphy.gif |
| 16:27.36 | jfindlay | ~trump |
| 16:27.38 | infobot | rhymes with orange |
| 16:56.37 | unum | Oda withdrew, that's interesting |
| 16:56.52 | unum | he two in party challengers for some reason |
| 16:57.06 | unum | s/he/he had |
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| 20:19.00 | levi | Heh, from http://www.corestandards.org/about-the-standards/myths-vs-facts/ : The Common Core is a stateâled effort that is not part of No Child Left Behind or any other federal initiative. The federal government played no role in the development of the Common Core. |
| 20:22.21 | unum | the last two anti-common core activist I have tried to get information out of have lead off with Common Core is not just the standard |
| 20:22.47 | unum | then they cast me as the bad guy for defining common core as it is defined by the group that developed it |
| 20:23.06 | unum | when they bundle up a bunch of other laws as part of "common core" |
| 20:23.24 | unum | as I was telling this last person you need to use the right words to be effective |
| 20:23.36 | voldemortensen | so what is "uncommon" core then? |
| 20:23.51 | unum | the state school board used the common core standardes as the basis for utah core |
| 20:24.08 | unum | there are other laws that require adaptive testing of the utah core |
| 20:24.20 | unum | but "repealing common core" does not repeal the testing requirment |
| 20:25.01 | unum | if you want to repeal the testing requirements that needs to be done in the state legislature, and the legislation would actually have to same something about adaptive computerized testing, or the law that created |
| 20:25.33 | unum | legislation "repealling common core" on any level will do NOTHING |
| 20:25.38 | unum | since there is no such law |
| 20:26.03 | jima | i want legislation repealing ipv4 |
| 20:26.05 | unum | but for some reason I'm the bad guy for using the correct legal terms, instead recognizing the evil of "common core" |
| 20:26.11 | unum | jima: fair enough |
| 20:26.29 | unum | actually I think it's only legal in utah if you use the correct port |
| 20:27.03 | jima | unum: isn't that unconstitutional, as per lawrence v. texas? |
| 20:27.21 | levi | They could defund federal educaton programs and pretend that will do anything specific to common core. |
| 20:28.49 | unum | https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070315/075847.shtml |
| 20:29.10 | unum | levi: that seems to be the response I got |
| 20:29.46 | unum | something about ESSA now makes the "optional" common core stuff mandatory. I ask for specific "common core" stuff that is now mandatory, I haven't heard back |
| 20:30.50 | levi | Looking at this after reading through some of www.corestandards.org gives me a bit of whiplash: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/25/breitbart-news-guide-to-the-gop-2016-candidates-and-common-core/ |
| 20:31.06 | unum | it's one of the most succesfull strawman attacks I've ever seen |
| 20:32.37 | unum | so when Kasich endorses common core(this is how my argument started) in the mind of many conservatives he's endorsing federally mandated high stakes testing |
| 20:32.41 | unum | even though he's not |
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| 20:33.58 | unum | I don't know why Utah passes so many of those "will you please look at this federal governments sir" things |
| 20:34.02 | unum | they never look at them |
| 20:34.46 | jfindlay | the Utah government is a circus |
| 20:48.04 | RyanE | the * government is a circus |
| 20:48.36 | RyanE | and not a *good* circus, either. More like a flea circus. |
| 20:48.52 | spangborn | itches |
| 20:49.44 | levi | Apparently Breitbart considers Race To The Top to be the federal government's forcing of state goverments to accept Common Core. |
| 20:53.07 | levi | Which, based on my reading of the actual document that Gov. Herbert signed for the Utah application for Race To The Top, is complete nonsense. |
| 20:54.04 | fungus | That's breitbart's expertise. making nonsense sound intelligent. |
| 20:56.56 | levi | You can hate on Common Core all you want, but recasting it as some federally-mandated initiative that's been forced on the states is just blatant lying. |
| 21:01.52 | levi | So, this guy in my neighborhood is running for the state house of representatives. Some people asked him on Facebook who else was running. He would only mention himself. |
| 21:01.56 | unum | and trying to define common core to include federal and state statutes is dishonest |
| 21:02.28 | unum | http://elections.utah.gov/election-resources/2016-candidate-filings |
| 21:02.28 | RyanE | who else is running? Just some crooks. |
| 21:02.39 | unum | RyanE: nice, I should try that one ;) |
| 21:02.43 | jfindlay | ~napoleon |
| 21:02.43 | infobot | Sweet! That's like a dollar an hour! |
| 21:02.53 | RyanE | wait... I forgot. It's some crooks and a child molester! |
| 21:02.53 | unum | actually I'm very careful about how I talk about my opponent |
| 21:02.57 | RyanE | think of the children! |
| 21:03.13 | unum | I have a bunch of people telling me I should do everything I can to publize his picture with trump |
| 21:03.21 | unum | but I don't think that would really help me that much |
| 21:03.39 | RyanE | b/c a picture with someone indicates that you agree with all their philosophies. |
| 21:03.48 | unum | not sure anything would but that's a different story |
| 21:03.56 | jfindlay | RyanE: you forgot the terrorist |
| 21:04.04 | RyanE | I knew I was leaving someone out. |
| 21:04.12 | RyanE | his name is muhammed or something like that. |
| 21:04.13 | unum | he did also endorsing and there's a facebook video from channel 13 of him explaining his reasoning |
| 21:04.13 | jfindlay | she was feeling left out |
| 21:04.26 | unum | where he spend most his time talking about donald trump junior for some reason |
| 21:05.21 | unum | did you read about how Trump lost delegates in illinoise because they had non english names |
| 21:06.40 | levi | My mother in law is apparently a Trump supporter. I can't fathom why. |
| 21:07.56 | jima | not enough hugs as a child? |
| 21:07.59 | unum | my family is republican some of them pretty right wing, but I don't think any of them support trump |
| 21:08.11 | unum | my in laws are democrats |
| 21:08.40 | RyanE | may daughter went to the D Caucus meeting the other night. Was afraid I'd yell at her if she told me. |
| 21:08.49 | RyanE | (which I did not) |
| 21:09.04 | jfindlay | what irritates me is how most people don't ever question their fealty to $party |
| 21:09.32 | levi | My in-laws are very Republican, but my father-in-law does not like Trump. I guess he's a Cruz supporter. |
| 21:09.33 | jfindlay | political party is dictated by environment and you must accept or you don't belong |
| 21:09.46 | voldemortensen | I went to the caucus. Some guy got up and was talking about how with Trump its not about being qualified or the right guy for the job, its about a New World Order. |
| 21:09.47 | jima | i don't agree 100% with either party. well, any party. |
| 21:09.49 | RyanE | I just checked, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a socialist, so at a national level, I think I may be OK being a R. |
| 21:10.10 | levi | My parents are Republican as well. I haven't really talked to them about this election, but from what I've seen they're not Trump fans. |
| 21:11.04 | eightyeight | i have a hard time fathoming cruz supporters |
| 21:11.21 | RyanE | I understand 'not Trump' supporters. |
| 21:11.22 | programmerq | the best thing about cruz? he's not trump :/ |
| 21:11.26 | RyanE | exactly |
| 21:12.03 | eightyeight | kasich is also not trump. and sane. |
| 21:12.20 | RyanE | and IMHO less likely to win, possibly for the same reasons. |
| 21:12.35 | RyanE | this election is a crap shoot. |
| 21:12.40 | eightyeight | it bothers me where people vote for a candidate, because "not trump" |
| 21:12.53 | eightyeight | rather than voting for the best candidate they feel |
| 21:12.55 | jfindlay | ~trump |
| 21:12.55 | infobot | Noooooooooooo! |
| 21:13.20 | jfindlay | http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ted-cruz-jerk-hated |
| 21:13.24 | eightyeight | i don't believe sanders will secure the nomination. but i really feel he's the best candidate on the political stage, so he got my vote |
| 21:14.49 | jima | he's not without problems, but he seems like he has the fewest/least troubling problems :-\ |
| 21:15.09 | jfindlay | eightyeight: same here |
| 21:15.30 | jima | eightyeight: utah seems to agree |
| 21:15.45 | eightyeight | people feel that your "wasting your vote" if you vote for the underdog |
| 21:15.48 | voldemortensen | I have a hard time liking a guy whose economic values align with Mussolini. |
| 21:15.49 | jfindlay | strangely, he doesn't seem to be promoting his best positions: diplomacy and pacifism and civil liberty and privacy |
| 21:15.51 | eightyeight | i find that highly troubling |
| 21:15.59 | eightyeight | for many reasons |
| 21:16.25 | jima | jfindlay: pfft, diplomacy and pacifism are SO passe |
| 21:16.27 | jfindlay | every other major candidate is pro war and pro big brother |
| 21:16.38 | jfindlay | because they think that's what the people want |
| 21:16.40 | eightyeight | "don't vote for kasich. vote for cruz so trump doesn't get the delegates" |
| 21:16.50 | eightyeight | WHAT?! |
| 21:16.50 | eightyeight | are you insane? |
| 21:16.50 | eightyeight | or just stupid? |
| 21:17.01 | jima | every other candidate is 'MURICA, F YEA ;-) |
| 21:17.25 | levi | eightyeight: What makes you think strategic voting is insane or stupid? |
| 21:18.13 | eightyeight | let's pretend that you really feel kasich or sanders (per your party affiliation) are the best candidate |
| 21:18.25 | levi | It's not as if it's some pledge of support or approval of a person. It's a tally mark that goes in a column. |
| 21:18.33 | eightyeight | further, let's hypothesize that the other 3 are part of some secret society government conspiracy for a NWO |
| 21:19.05 | eightyeight | by not voting for you who feel is the best candidate (kasich/sanders), you are furthering the NWO agenda |
| 21:19.10 | eightyeight | that's either insane or stupid |
| 21:19.17 | levi | That's ridiculous. |
| 21:19.21 | eightyeight | i agree |
| 21:19.28 | levi | No, your statement is ridiculous. |
| 21:19.32 | eightyeight | insane, stupid, or ridiculous |
| 21:19.52 | eightyeight | this is your country. not reality tv. |
| 21:20.01 | eightyeight | the vote you cast has implications on a world stage |
| 21:20.03 | jfindlay | awesome! do you know how long it's been since we've had a good argument in #utah? |
| 21:20.10 | jima | \o/ |
| 21:20.12 | levi | The fact that this is my country does not change the mechanics of the election process. |
| 21:20.12 | eightyeight | playing popularity vote is insane or stupid |
| 21:20.14 | jima | jfindlay: need popcorn? |
| 21:20.17 | jfindlay | yeah |
| 21:20.27 | jima | goes to pop another bag |
| 21:20.36 | levi | My feelings about people are irrelevant; the voting box doesn't care. |
| 21:21.01 | eightyeight | exits stage left to teach a numbers game to a coworker |
| 21:21.32 | RyanE | game theory (choosing who you think can win, not who you like best) certainly applies (and should) in elections. |
| 21:22.15 | fungus | I understand eightyeight's feelings, but sometimes tactics must be considered in choosing a candidate. |
| 21:22.16 | levi | I will vote in a way that I feel will be most likely to produce the best outcome that my vote could produce. |
| 21:22.39 | RyanE | as well you should |
| 21:22.56 | fungus | Choosing the least evil candidate that can win, can be a better choice than choosing a non-evil candidate that cannot win. |
| 21:23.56 | *** join/#utah youtah_ (~Jeff@50.243.6.92) |
| 21:25.04 | voldemortensen | i.e. unless there's a contested convention, Kasich can't win (and even then its not probable). So its stupid or insane to vote for him, especially if you really don't want clinton or sanders. |
| 21:25.44 | fungus | It's not stupid or insane to vote for him, it just might not be tactically sound. |
| 21:25.47 | RyanE | the only person arguing on the other side of this argument has left the room. |
| 21:26.02 | RyanE | so, argue amongst yourselves. :) |
| 21:26.35 | voldemortensen | I don't actually think its insane, but I was playing the game. |
| 21:26.48 | voldemortensen | I do think its a little stupid though. |
| 21:27.48 | fungus | I am in the middle actually. I understand both sides. Tactics vs chosing the right |
| 21:28.20 | levi | Voting is not choosing. I don't get to choose, I just get to vote. |
| 21:28.38 | levi | The *process* chooses. I can influence that process, to a very limited degree, with my vote. |
| 21:28.58 | voldemortensen | ~youtah |
| 21:28.58 | infobot | Did someone say Nachos? |
| 21:29.07 | youtah | lol |
| 21:29.15 | levi | My real choice is how I want to apply my limited influence on the process. |
| 21:29.16 | youtah | ~youtah |
| 21:29.16 | infobot | Did someone say Nachos? |
| 21:29.31 | fungus | agreed. I think eightyeight might be referring to the idea that if everyone voted tactically only we will almost always get less optimal outcomes. |
| 21:29.37 | youtah | voted for Bernie. |
| 21:29.41 | eightyeight | sorry. i've been waiting to teach my coworker that game for a while. he just became available |
| 21:29.44 | eightyeight | heh |
| 21:30.08 | eightyeight | i don't agree with tactical games when things of this nature are involved |
| 21:30.25 | levi | But this is when tactical games are most important. |
| 21:30.26 | youtah | liked Bernie and voted for me |
| 21:30.28 | youtah | him |
| 21:30.29 | youtah | lol |
| 21:30.30 | fungus | Most optimal outcomes from the process are more likely when people vote in their best interests. |
| 21:30.32 | eightyeight | the quality of life for millions could be at stake, and you're playing political tactical games?! |
| 21:30.42 | youtah | So I went to the Dem Caucus |
| 21:30.45 | youtah | It was interesting |
| 21:30.56 | jima | youtah: you're secretly bernie sanders? I KNEW IT |
| 21:30.58 | youtah | They were all chanting and saying they wanted the SAME THIGNS as the GOP |
| 21:31.11 | levi | eightyeight: The quality of life for millions could be at stake, and you're not thinking tactically?!! |
| 21:31.17 | eightyeight | i just don't agree with it |
| 21:31.22 | youtah | jima, and it felt so good |
| 21:31.28 | eightyeight | i'm thinking rationally |
| 21:31.31 | levi | That's fine, but surely you can see my position is not unreasonable. |
| 21:31.31 | eightyeight | and i'm well informed |
| 21:31.43 | levi | I don't think your position is unreasonable either. |
| 21:32.32 | youtah | 's ballot felt the Bern! |
| 21:32.48 | eightyeight | if cruz is elected president, and my wife as a result, gets paid less as a school teacher, because everyone voted for cruz to keep trump out, i think that's stupid |
| 21:32.53 | eightyeight | and it affects my family |
| 21:32.55 | youtah | He's promised lots of free stuff |
| 21:32.57 | youtah | like dom |
| 21:33.03 | youtah | Lots and lots of Free Dom |
| 21:33.13 | fungus | It reminds me of the Prisoner's Dilemma. |
| 21:33.38 | levi | eightyeight: What if Trump is elected and your wife gets paid less as a school teacher as a result? |
| 21:34.07 | jfindlay | youtah: document object model? |
| 21:34.10 | eightyeight | voting for a candidate _just_ to prevent another candidate from getting the nomination, is unreasonable |
| 21:34.10 | eightyeight | sorry |
| 21:34.14 | fungus | Sometimes you have to vote for a bad option due to the environment around the situation. elections are not done in a vacuum. |
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| 21:34.18 | youtah | yup jfindlay |
| 21:34.38 | youtah | regardless of browsers too. No descrimination |
| 21:34.50 | eightyeight | my point is, people should vote for the best candidate. not play tactical games at the voting booth. |
| 21:34.50 | levi | eightyeight: You didn't answer my question. |
| 21:34.53 | youtah | doesn't matter if you like the Opera or you're a Fox |
| 21:35.02 | fungus | It feels wrong, and sometimes backfires badly though. |
| 21:35.06 | jima | youtah: i think you misread my comment |
| 21:35.18 | youtah | probably misread jimas comment |
| 21:35.28 | eightyeight | if trump is elected because people think he's the best candidate, and my quality of life decreases as a result, at least people did what they believed was best |
| 21:35.37 | jima | 15:30 * youtah liked Bernie and voted for me |
| 21:35.39 | jima | 15:30 < jima> youtah: you're secretly bernie sanders? I KNEW IT |
| 21:36.00 | levi | What if what people believe is best is that Trump *not* be elected president, and don't feel strongly about anyone else? |
| 21:36.04 | youtah | oh, lol... yeah. My bad jima |
| 21:36.15 | jima | you're bad ;-) |
| 21:36.36 | youtah | I am bad? or it's my bad? |
| 21:36.37 | eightyeight | if trump is elected because people played tactical games, and my quality of life decreases as a result, i think they're morons |
| 21:36.39 | RyanE | started to say what levi said, but he said it better (backspace backspace) |
| 21:36.53 | jima | youtah: yes. |
| 21:37.01 | *** join/#utah jcp (sid143528@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539) |
| 21:37.06 | unum | there's important part to understand about people voting strategically for cruz. In Utah if a candidate gets over 50% then they get all of the delegates, if no one gets over 50% then they are assigned proportionally |
| 21:37.09 | fungus | RyanE, he usually does. :) |
| 21:37.13 | levi | eightyeight: You're just full of weird hypotheticals that could never be proven out, aren't you? |
| 21:37.23 | eightyeight | i'm just emotionally charged |
| 21:37.37 | RyanE | levi's poistion is voting *against* trump, not for Cruz. Voting for Kaisich is a vote for Kaisich, but not a vote *against* Trump. |
| 21:37.40 | unum | so voting for cruz helped lead to a contest covention, which arguably increases Kasich's chances more so than voting for him |
| 21:37.55 | RyanE | if you assume Kaisich can win a contested election. |
| 21:37.56 | youtah | sticks an emotional voltmeter to eightyeight. "Well Well, Watt do we have here?" |
| 21:37.57 | levi | I get that; that's fine. But you're telling other people how they should act and not providing a reasonable justification. |
| 21:38.13 | jfindlay | so you clearly can't choose the glass in front of youtah |
| 21:38.20 | RyanE | heh |
| 21:38.23 | jima | youtah: your humor is so negative |
| 21:38.28 | RyanE | "I'm just getting started!" |
| 21:38.33 | eightyeight | i gave a very reasonably justification- my quality of life because of others actions |
| 21:38.36 | eightyeight | s/bly/ble/ |
| 21:38.36 | unum | RyanE: his odd of winning a contest convention are MUCH higher than his odds of winning one where trump wins on the first ticket |
| 21:38.42 | RyanE | unum: true |
| 21:38.50 | youtah | jima, are you positive? Need me to amp it up? |
| 21:38.55 | eightyeight | take the government shutdown, for example |
| 21:39.02 | RyanE | please, don't. |
| 21:39.04 | jima | youtah: this conversation is leaving me drained. |
| 21:39.10 | RyanE | and me more stupid |
| 21:39.12 | jfindlay | har |
| 21:39.25 | eightyeight | ted cruz and mike lee felt that putting people out of work was the best thing to do, because they didn't want to bend on a bill before a deadline |
| 21:39.29 | eightyeight | that's moronic |
| 21:39.30 | jima | RyanE: i'm immune to youtah's humor somehow |
| 21:39.42 | jima | you could even say i'm resistent to it |
| 21:39.47 | youtah | OhMG these puns are awesome |
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| 21:40.07 | youtah | jima has the capacity to deal with my jokes |
| 21:40.32 | youtah | even at a high frequency |
| 21:40.48 | jima | youtah: well, it's mostly due to how you conduct yourself |
| 21:41.01 | RyanE | Let's not bicker and argue over *who* killed *whom*... |
| 21:41.28 | youtah | RyanE... please... don't interupt a good pun fest |
| 21:41.33 | youtah | lol |
| 21:41.40 | RyanE | there'd have to be a *good* one for me to interrupt. |
| 21:41.44 | jima | some people need some lightning up |
| 21:41.47 | youtah | Ha! |
| 21:41.48 | levi | eightyeight: You have asserted a causal relationship between strategic voting and poor outcomes, but haven't actually provided reasoning that connected the two. Just assertions and emotion. |
| 21:42.13 | eightyeight | i don't see how people's lives at stake is unreasonable |
| 21:42.27 | RyanE | assertions and emotions... sounds like politics to me! |
| 21:42.34 | youtah | RyanE, jokes so good I almost die(o)d |
| 21:42.50 | levi | Claiming that people's lives are at stake is not unreasonable. |
| 21:42.54 | unum | eightyeight: I assert that a vote for cruz was more likely to lead to a Kasich presidency than a vote for Kasich, you didn't address that |
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| 21:43.28 | RyanE | I still assert that it's a crapshoot, and that your wife is more likely to get thrown in a secret prison if Trump is elected. |
| 21:43.39 | RyanE | but that's just me. |
| 21:43.41 | levi | Claiming that "because people's lives are at stake, one must not vote tactically" is a logical leap that you have not successfully connected. |
| 21:44.00 | unum | now for a less obviously political discussion, would you rate the ceo of this company as trustworthy: https://zyto.com/ |
| 21:44.03 | jima | youtah: it's nice being in a channel that discusses current events |
| 21:44.21 | youtah | shocking I know |
| 21:44.41 | RyanE | unum: I'm afraid of any kind of biocommunication. :) |
| 21:44.49 | RyanE | so not trustworthy. |
| 21:45.07 | jima | it really can generate some polarity, though |
| 21:45.08 | eightyeight | unum: i disagree |
| 21:45.09 | RyanE | "This technology is used by practitioners to make better health and wellness decisions through biocommunication." |
| 21:45.27 | eightyeight | and is it just me, or is the lag to freenode being obnoxious? |
| 21:45.29 | youtah | you mean political reactance, jima? |
| 21:45.37 | RyanE | I suppose we all use biocommunication. my lips are bio. |
| 21:45.50 | youtah | ~twss |
| 21:45.50 | infobot | That's what she said! |
| 21:45.54 | fungus | "decision support technology" There is more marketing buzz language than real information. Bad company. |
| 21:45.55 | eightyeight | unum: a vote for kasich or cruz is not a vote for trump. |
| 21:46.39 | youtah | okay, I am out. I really need to finish this script |
| 21:46.46 | levi | eightyeight: You are arguing as if caucus votes directly elect a president. |
| 21:47.18 | levi | General election votes don't even directly elect a president. |
| 21:47.25 | jima | youtah: not sure what you mean, i'm kind of out of my element here |
| 21:47.30 | unum | eightyeight: I said a vote for Cruz is more likely to lead to a Kasich presidency than a vote for Kasich. |
| 21:47.43 | eightyeight | no |
| 21:47.43 | eightyeight | i understand how delegates work |
| 21:47.43 | eightyeight | (even with iowa, nevada, maine, and other democratic "equivalents" |
| 21:47.58 | unum | I don't think I would have voted for Cruz anways, but I think it's a valid statement |
| 21:48.04 | levi | You claim you do, but you haven't actually argued as if you do. |
| 21:48.06 | eightyeight | and both colorado and north dakota sitting out on the gop midterms this year |
| 21:48.17 | youtah | right to the very core jima |
| 21:48.37 | jfindlay | the very outer or inner core? |
| 21:48.43 | youtah | like it's the nucleus |
| 21:49.18 | jima | youtah: i'd better go, i've got something of a short fuse |
| 21:49.36 | jfindlay | ~wiki proximity fuse |
| 21:49.42 | levi | If you want to convince people, you're going to have to do better than appeal to your own emotions. |
| 21:49.52 | youtah | doesn't want to Bohr you |
| 21:49.53 | eightyeight | levi: i'm not sure if you're arguing just to argue, or if you really can't understand how an "other vote" to keep $CANDIDATE out, can have negative impacts on people's lives |
| 21:50.04 | eightyeight | i'm tending to believe the former |
| 21:50.23 | jima | waves |
| 21:50.30 | eightyeight | gah. this lag is killing me |
| 21:50.51 | jfindlay | anybody want a peanut? |
| 21:51.03 | levi | eightyeight: *any* vote can have negative impacts on people's lives. If I truly believe Trump would be more harmful than Cruz and vote to keep Trump out and succeed, then perhaps I have caused a reduction in overall negative impacts. |
| 21:51.45 | levi | eightyeight: I told you I don't find your stance unreasonable. I find your insistence that my stance is unreasonable to be unreasonable. |
| 21:51.55 | unum | I'm still waiting for an explantion about how voting in a way to give trump more delegates, hurts trump. |
| 21:52.14 | youtah | jima, I think they want us to put a Cork in it |
| 21:52.35 | youtah | ^ dang that was a good oe |
| 21:52.36 | youtah | one |
| 21:52.42 | levi | I don't understand why you're okay with negative impacts on people's lives that could have been prevented by tactical voting, but weren't because I voted for the person I thought was the best candidate. |
| 21:53.05 | jfindlay | youtah: I keep thinking of things that are too obscure, like Limerick is a city in Ireland |
| 21:53.20 | levi | As if it's okay that the world burns as long as everyone voted for who they thought was best. |
| 21:53.42 | youtah | knows of Limerick |
| 21:53.45 | youtah | is Irish |
| 21:53.49 | unum | levi: that's a good way of explaining it |
| 21:53.57 | youtah | okay, for real, I need to put my head down and get back to work |
| 21:54.41 | jfindlay | youtah: so is Cork |
| 21:54.49 | RyanE | cork it |
| 21:54.59 | youtah | alright, dont make me split |
| 21:55.20 | jfindlay | you should make a banana split |
| 21:55.31 | youtah | Did you hear about Atom and Eve's split? It was rather atomic. |
| 21:56.29 | jfindlay | lol |
| 21:57.05 | unum | I've heard people claim Sander's speech's have no substance, but he actually mentions real policy proposals more often than anything else: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/these-are-the-phrases-that-sanders-and-clinton-repeat-most/ |
| 21:57.20 | unum | well atleast there are no owl jokes today |
| 21:57.38 | unum | IAP holds there caucus' later so we have to wait, he has two in party challengers |
| 21:57.52 | levi | I will *generally* vote for who I think is best; votes for presidential candidates in Utah are largely tactically irrelevant, and so the most value will come from the show of support. |
| 21:58.24 | levi | But I can't get behind a blanket condemnation of tactical voting. |
| 21:59.27 | youtah | ~owl |
| 21:59.27 | infobot | Please no kicking the owls. |
| 21:59.57 | jfindlay | lol |
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| 22:00.45 | unum | I guess as part of my statement I'm assuming <%30 of voters were voting tactically |
| 22:01.29 | unum | I much would have preferred Kasich won Utah. |
| 22:02.02 | RyanE | so would've Kasich. :) |
| 22:02.10 | unum | my common core argument came about because of someone who endorsed Cruz over Kasich, when posted his reasons for opposing Kasich I thought, everyone of those things is actually a good thing....... |
| 22:03.48 | levi | For the record, I hate Ted Cruz and would have a hard time voting for him even tactically. I certainly don't want him to be President. I don't want Kasich to be President either though, despite how good he looks next to his current competitors. |
| 22:04.14 | unum | levi: agreed |
| 22:04.20 | jfindlay | it kind of feels like the end of the Roman Empire |
| 22:04.22 | unum | my feelings exactly |
| 22:04.38 | jfindlay | but I'm sure this empire will stagger along for a few more hundred years before collapse |
| 22:04.44 | voldemortensen | I don't want any of the current candidates to be President honestly. |
| 22:04.45 | unum | interesting it looks like cruz and sanders are mostly like to repeat policy proposals |
| 22:05.37 | unum | s/mostly like/most likely |
| 22:05.57 | unum | voldemortensen: are their actual policy proposals you don't like, or you just don't like anybody as a person |
| 22:08.08 | voldemortensen | I think all candidates (maybe with the exception of Kasich), are too extreme in their views and what they claim they would do as president. |
| 22:08.25 | voldemortensen | Bernie: Socialize all the things! |
| 22:08.40 | voldemortensen | Trump: Ban all the people that scare us! |
| 22:08.59 | voldemortensen | Cruz: Obamacare is the worst thing ever! Repeal everything! |
| 22:09.41 | voldemortensen | I wish both sides would swing more moderate instead of progressively getting more extreme. |
| 22:10.28 | voldemortensen | Sure, there are other issues that each candidate is more moderate on, but they aren't pushing those in their campaigns. |
| 22:10.32 | unum | bernie may belong to a party with socialist in the name, but he doesn't want to socialize everything |
| 22:11.04 | jfindlay | all of them except Sanders want to bomb all the countriez |
| 22:11.33 | unum | ya now Paul is gone we are mostly left with hawks |
| 22:11.45 | unum | well I guess we always mostly had hawks |
| 22:12.01 | unum | but we used to have two less hawkish candidates |
| 22:12.44 | unum | so I think I've decided I prefer individual health insuraunce to single payer |
| 22:12.50 | levi | voldemortensen: You can't win a primary by voicing your moderate views. You'll probably hear more moderate views in the general election campaigning. |
| 22:12.53 | voldemortensen | I'm not a far of war at all. I'd like to avoid it. But there is a point where its necessary to defend home and country. |
| 22:13.27 | voldemortensen | levi: I know, but that's part of the problem. |
| 22:13.28 | unum | sigle payer may be more effecient, but you generally don't get elected by promising to raise taxes, even if it's for a good thing |
| 22:13.31 | unum | trust me I've tried |
| 22:13.43 | unum | so I worry about a death spiral with single payer |
| 22:13.47 | voldemortensen | its so divisive |
| 22:14.09 | unum | with in the state party we tend to have a lot of moderates |
| 22:14.17 | unum | people in salt lake can be more to the left |
| 22:14.49 | unum | right now we have a division with in the party calling it self the utah centrist party |
| 22:15.11 | unum | but their gubernational candidate is the ceo of the company I linked to above |
| 22:15.54 | voldemortensen | I wish anarchy would work. |
| 22:16.13 | voldemortensen | but sadly, government is a necessary evil. |
| 22:17.00 | RyanE | he's probably really good a synergizing efficiencies. |
| 22:17.58 | voldemortensen | I don't even know why I got elected as a county delegate. |
| 22:18.06 | TodPunk | levi: this Bill Conley character, do you know if he's feckless and just annoying, or does he actual become a problem now and then? |
| 22:18.19 | TodPunk | Assuming you even know who he is |
| 22:19.53 | TodPunk | suppose I could have asked youtah, didn't see him there |
| 22:19.54 | unum | voldemortensen: so you could vote for a moderate |
| 22:22.51 | RyanE | s/moderate/unicorn |
| 22:25.34 | TodPunk | I prefer to vote ocelot. |
| 22:25.49 | TodPunk | Just seems more realistic to me |
| 22:26.01 | RyanE | or lancelot |
| 22:27.04 | TodPunk | C'est moi! |
| 22:28.54 | unum | I keep hoping superdell will update his blog |
| 22:32.39 | unum | http://www.utahiap.org/elections.html |
| 22:32.42 | unum | if you want to vote for him |
| 22:34.56 | levi | TodPunk: He seems to be pretty pissed about the Thanksgiving Point driving range. |
| 22:38.24 | TodPunk | levi: it seems it's always something, and I just don't have the history to know if I can just safely ignore him because literally everyone else does, or if he's a problem that needs to be contained |
| 22:40.25 | levi | Yeah, I don't know much about him. |
| 22:40.44 | RyanE | "think of the children" plea makes me think less of him. |
| 22:41.10 | TodPunk | RyanE: superdell? |
| 22:41.26 | RyanE | no, I thought you were going back to Bill Conley. |
| 22:41.33 | RyanE | http://fox13now.com/2015/07/28/lds-church-puts-plans-to-demolish-thanksgiving-point-driving-range-on-hold/ |
| 22:42.04 | TodPunk | I haven't read a think of the children plea from him, but admittedly he drones on a lot |
| 22:43.44 | klys | less than half of voters will agree, that voting is tactical or strategic. tactical or strategic voting is a delusive idea. The two-party system is not really a system supported by the consent of the governed. It is also a delusion. Neither tactical voting nor the two-party system represents a unique solution. |
| 22:47.55 | TodPunk | I don't think any of the voting discussion matters. No matter how you slice it, you are debating how best to throw your drop in the ocean. The only thing that matters is that you threw it or not. |
| 22:49.12 | TodPunk | If there was some large mass participation in some thing that we wanted to argue against in aggregate casting of drops, that would be at least a notable discussion, but ultimately pointless since our influence over the drops (regardless of who we are) is going to be minimal at best. |
| 22:49.52 | klys | the idea that the only problem lefto to solve is the vote of an individual: the parties have grappled with the facts and come to compromises such as runoff ballots for delegates. while this may look like a solution to any member of a party, it does not represent a systemic solution to the problems of the two-party system. |
| 22:51.14 | TodPunk | your statement assumes it is a problem |
| 22:51.43 | klys | if it was not a problem then why come up with a solution? |
| 22:51.50 | TodPunk | I didn't |
| 22:52.01 | klys | that is all my statement means in this context. |
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| 22:59.54 | klys | the party cannot come up with an internal solution to the problem of political dualism that it is causing. |
| 23:01.08 | klys | the fact that is has tried, and that thereby party members are largely satisifed with the results, further serves to illustrate that the political dualism is a problem for every constituent. |
| 23:02.12 | klys | to just reduce the idea of political dualism to a single vote is delusive because people are still undecided about what the vote means and how it represents anyone's conscience. |
| 23:02.44 | levi | I think Conley has a point, but he appears to have been a consistently annoying jerk and can't keep his story straight. |
| 23:04.37 | TodPunk | Apparently it's deleted now. *rolleyes* |
| 23:05.57 | klys | http://www.poll-maker.com/poll350309x644946f0-13 |
| 23:06.01 | TodPunk | klys: it doesn't have inherent meaning and it doesn't necessarily represent a person's conscience. It's a vote. |
| 23:06.23 | klys | the vote is derived from an earlier concept of a "voice." |
| 23:06.58 | TodPunk | Which doesn't change my point at all |
| 23:07.43 | TodPunk | Even applying the concept of a conscience to it is just showing how the observer judges the voter, not anything about the vote, and honestly very little about the voter |
| 23:07.47 | klys | the idea that I have to choose your right hand or your left as an accessory to your right to vote is another aspect of the problem of political dualism. |
| 23:09.09 | levi | What's deleted now? |
| 23:09.35 | TodPunk | Bill's post |
| 23:09.52 | TodPunk | on facebook, I haven't checked his "blog" |
| 23:10.06 | levi | Wow, Bill Conley's twitter account is pretty revealing about him. |
| 23:10.21 | levi | I read through his blog, it's mostly about the Family Search plat thing. |
| 23:11.50 | levi | https://twitter.com/billconley7 |
| 23:12.40 | levi | His twitter feed is a weird mix of "life coach" tips and blasting of some local business for not meeting his standards. |
| 23:12.58 | TodPunk | his political twitter is pretty bad, too |
| 23:13.02 | TodPunk | https://twitter.com/bill4lehi |
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| 23:14.00 | levi | http://bcunleashed.blogspot.com/ |
| 23:14.18 | levi | Compare the life tips with his public interactions. |
| 23:14.40 | TodPunk | yeah, this guy has totally got it together |
| 23:14.50 | TodPunk | loses more faith in humanity |
| 23:15.07 | TodPunk | time to go home,though! |
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| 23:17.59 | levi | He claims he was the victim of "affinity fraud" by some Mormons, to the tune of millions. I can see how that could make someone a bit bitter. |
| 23:27.25 | programmerq | what is affinity fraud? |
| 23:27.51 | programmerq | oh, just fraud that targets large groups, got it. |
| 23:29.12 | klys | fiasco |
| 23:38.32 | unum | I think the affinity comes from targetting your "friends" |
| 23:39.21 | unum | well usually fellow church members |
| 23:39.32 | unum | so it's particulary popular among mormons and jews |
| 23:49.53 | *** part/#utah Nemus (~Nemus@unaffiliated/nemus) |
| 23:50.01 | RyanE | I'd be as likely to hire him as a motiviational speaker as I would be to hire Oscar the Grouch as a Chef. |
