| 00:17.29 | Tod-Work | I would posit that you should just use Postgres if you are going to use a database. If you need Mysql (and therefore Maria) you're probably in a dangerous place like trying to install Wordpress. Don't do that. |
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| 00:18.52 | Tod-Work | The fancy new databases are just going to be subsets of what you can get from Postgres, or they're going to be NoSQL in which case you should reconsider your life choices that led you to thinking you needed a DB in the first place |
| 00:19.45 | d3c4f | postgresql is great, but there's nothing wrong inherently with mysql/mariadb |
| 00:19.47 | joshh | d3c4f: why maria over percona |
| 00:19.54 | jfindlay | I would posit that you should just use sqlite unless you have advanced database needs at which point you can start to optimize for whatever it is that you desire |
| 00:19.55 | d3c4f | It is OFTEN abused |
| 00:20.26 | d3c4f | joshh, different options / engines. Percona is great. Biggest problem most people have with it is that it isn't FOSS |
| 00:20.27 | Tod-Work | jfindlay, indeed, if you're not storing a lot, sqlite is going to be a godsend |
| 00:20.54 | Tod-Work | sqlite: for when you don't NEED a db, but a db would be nice |
| 00:21.00 | d3c4f | though percona does have some awesome features that are harder to implement in mariadb/mysql |
| 00:21.08 | jfindlay | databases all seem to complex for most use cases, but that's my experience |
| 00:21.18 | jfindlay | s/to/too/ |
| 00:22.26 | d3c4f | Just about any good relational database/engine can used for most databases up to about 1TB or so of data with "minimal" infrastructure |
| 00:22.44 | d3c4f | (with a bunch of tuning) |
| 00:22.52 | Tod-Work | But seriously, don't use Wordpress for anything |
| 00:23.20 | d3c4f | Tod-Work +1 |
| 00:23.26 | d3c4f | (even though I do) lol |
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| 00:36.52 | joshh | when do you people somehow not need a db, i don't get it |
| 00:37.01 | joshh | unless you're just talking about your personal toy stuff |
| 00:38.21 | jfindlay | joshh: not everybody is a web developer :-) |
| 00:38.52 | joshh | true, there's levi |
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| 00:44.53 | Tod-Work | just uses pydozer for all his sites these days |
| 00:45.38 | d3c4f | nice |
| 00:46.36 | d3c4f | I'll have to check that out a little more in depth |
| 00:47.04 | d3c4f | I have heard good things about django, but I have only used it a tiny bit for small rest-apis |
| 00:47.51 | jfindlay | django makes me feel sad |
| 00:47.54 | d3c4f | Tod-Work, do you have a site it is running on that I can check out? |
| 00:48.00 | d3c4f | jfindlay, why? |
| 00:48.50 | jfindlay | it's big, imposes an ugly orm, opaque, has lots of traditionalisms that can be daunting to beginners, etc. |
| 00:49.09 | d3c4f | what do you prefer? |
| 00:49.23 | jfindlay | lately I've been liking react |
| 00:49.33 | romanovic | jfindlay: what's wrong with using react with django? |
| 00:49.52 | romanovic | loves django, but wouldn't use their templating system these days, in favor of react or angular |
| 00:49.52 | jfindlay | obviously not a 'complete' solution, but I'm actually finding that refreshing :) |
| 00:49.56 | d3c4f | jfindlay, isn't that more of a front-end solution? |
| 00:50.05 | jfindlay | yeah, I guess |
| 00:50.20 | joshh | no love for flask or tornado? |
| 00:50.25 | d3c4f | I look at django as mostly a back-end solution |
| 00:50.43 | jfindlay | I've never used those, but I think I'm predisposed to prefer them to django :) |
| 00:50.59 | d3c4f | joshh, I'll have to check those out |
| 00:51.21 | jfindlay | I used django way back in 2007-2008 |
| 00:51.53 | jfindlay | it has lots of nice libraries and an ecosystem |
| 00:52.05 | d3c4f | All I really want is a lightweight, fast Python framework that let's me quickly create restful apis with good authentication and then stays out of my way |
| 00:52.34 | joshh | yes flask is good for that |
| 00:52.47 | d3c4f | cool, I'll have to look at it more |
| 00:52.53 | jfindlay | I'm supposed to like node, but it keeps changing so fast that tutorials I find don't work |
| 00:52.56 | joshh | it's like the equivalent of sinatra for ruby imo |
| 00:53.13 | joshh | no you aren't supposed to like node |
| 00:53.27 | romanovic | I started out in the web world doing vanilla php, then learning some cakephp, codeigniter, wordpress. |
| 00:53.38 | romanovic | Then I started working at a python shop using django, with 0 experience in either. The conventions were so intuitive, I felt like I was running circles around any php framework I had ever used in a matter of weeks |
| 00:54.09 | romanovic | i'm interested in trying flask as well for some upcoming lightweight projects |
| 00:54.49 | romanovic | joshh: is flask still actively maintained then? I looked at it years ago and haven't really kept up |
| 00:54.56 | joshh | ya |
| 00:55.04 | joshh | it's pretty popular i think |
| 00:55.16 | joshh | for microservices at python shops |
| 00:55.31 | jfindlay | do flask or tornado need to run inside of wsgi, etc.? |
| 00:55.55 | joshh | flask yes, tornado you don't have to |
| 00:56.00 | joshh | uwsgi is recommended though |
| 00:56.43 | joshh | actually it's not required for flask either |
| 00:56.52 | joshh | but that's how we run it at work |
| 01:01.01 | keldwud | got the report in and a case number. they'll get back to us tomorrow with an appointment for an interview |
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| 01:29.39 | TodPunk | d3c4f: https://phonejanitor.com or http://www.todandlorna.com or http://networksanitationcommittee.com or even http://bluntconsultants.com |
| 01:30.23 | TodPunk | many of them are open source and you can see their implementations in github, but the example fits most of the core functionality anyway |
| 01:31.06 | TodPunk | I haven't built anything production that has thousands of pages but I did generate a thousand blog posts of lorem ipsum with it and it went through it just fine (that was a very meta afternoon) |
| 01:31.50 | TodPunk | jfindlay: we use Pyramid at work |
| 01:32.04 | d3c4f | nice, thanks TodPunk |
| 01:32.06 | TodPunk | with sqlalchemy for our "orm" |
| 01:32.26 | TodPunk | though that's just for delivering JSON to an Angular frontend I suppose, so it's a bit of cheating, really |
| 01:35.16 | TodPunk | romanovic: I recommend flask right until you need to do something complex with a database pipeline, then it can get disorganized quickly |
| 01:35.45 | TodPunk | I haven't tried Bottle, but it seems from our looks at it last year it would suffer similarly |
| 01:36.01 | TodPunk | but I use Flask for some simple APIs I've setup for tooling |
| 01:41.26 | TodPunk | While I'm recommending things, I can't recommend pixelarity.com enough for templates. Nice price, clean implementations for lots of nice looking things. I've adapted some of their offerings for almost all my recent sites. |
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| 05:17.25 | keldwud | time to take the LFCE exam.wish me luck! |
| 05:18.05 | TodPunk | good luck, good sir |
| 05:36.30 | RyanE | good luck |
| 06:04.36 | shalkie | good luck keldwud |
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| 06:11.49 | keldwud | welp. that was a bust. life sure is difficult without government ID :( |
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| 13:29.13 | jfindlay | well, there I went again and used Bcc wrong again |
| 13:29.25 | jfindlay | one of these days I'm going to get it right |
| 13:29.55 | jfindlay | evidently it doesn't work if the other recipient(s) are Cc |
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| 14:09.54 | unum | what do you mean by "doesn't work" |
| 14:13.26 | jfindlay | the point of Bcc is that the Bcc recipient doesn't know they are Bcc, the header they get is To |
| 14:13.47 | jfindlay | but that only works if the other recipient(s) are also To, not Cc |
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| 15:26.14 | unum | oh I thought the point of bcc was that others wouldn't know about the person who got the bcc got it |
| 15:29.36 | jima | unum: err, yes |
| 15:30.04 | jima | i've never heard of any implication that bcc was about disguising how the bcc recipient got the message |
| 15:30.23 | jima | it's pretty obvious, if they look at the visible headers |
| 15:30.38 | jima | "i'm not in 'to' or 'cc,' guess i was bcc'd" |
| 15:31.13 | jima | bcc is about looping someone in without 'to' or 'cc' knowing about it |
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| 15:31.53 | jima | (unless 'to' or 'cc' are the mail system admins, but that's a bit of a corner case ;-) |
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| 15:44.53 | eightyeight | goozbach: kind of fun, no? :) |
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| 15:51.11 | moriancumer | Anyone have a sec to look at a really bad bash script? http://pastebin.com/HMv5HHJ4 |
| 15:51.22 | moriancumer | need some fresh eyes. |
| 15:51.58 | RyanE | sorry, I can only offer proofreading for spelling mistakes. :) |
| 15:52.02 | jima | hopefully it doesn't corrupt said fresh eyes |
| 15:52.16 | RyanE | it cannot be unseen. |
| 15:52.35 | jima | dangit |
| 15:52.36 | moriancumer | it may. I know there is a better way. |
| 15:53.14 | jima | what's the input/excepted output? |
| 15:53.18 | jima | expected* |
| 15:53.23 | jima | i can't type today |
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| 15:54.50 | moriancumer | I just want to take a list of names, "randomize" it, and break it up in groups of n |
| 15:55.28 | moriancumer | i.e. input 3 - randomized groups of 3 |
| 15:55.39 | moriancumer | is the output |
| 15:56.08 | eightyeight | moriancumer: you don't "cat" variables. you print them. "printf $g" |
| 15:56.29 | eightyeight | also, unless you know what you're doing, you should double-quote your shell variables |
| 15:56.58 | voldemortensen | If you're interested, I recently wrote a similar perl script. http://pastebin.com/PsjgSLJT |
| 15:57.08 | moriancumer | eightyeight: oh. why printf instead of cat. still learning. |
| 15:57.27 | moriancumer | voldemortensen: thanks. I take a look. |
| 15:57.42 | voldemortensen | You'd just have to switch out the students array to an array of names and the groups array to $ARGV[0] to pass in the group num. |
| 15:57.49 | eightyeight | moriancumer: because cat(1) concatenates files. |
| 15:58.35 | moriancumer | eightyeight: makes sense. |
| 15:58.55 | eightyeight | also, "printf" is more portable than "echo" |
| 15:58.57 | moriancumer | however I get a sig warning piping xargs to sed. |
| 16:02.11 | Tod-Work | moriancumer, you know that variable names being longer doesn't slow down the script anymore, right? Not even on like, embedded stuff |
| 16:03.27 | eightyeight | moriancumer: also, '>' is used for file redirection. you don't redirect to a shell variable. |
| 16:03.56 | eightyeight | if you want to reassign a shell variable, then 'g=$(printf "$e" | sort -R)' |
| 16:05.37 | moriancumer | eightyeight: didn't know about the redirection to a variable. |
| 16:07.10 | eightyeight | moriancumer: and "$1" is a positional parameter. IE: "./employees.sh foo" |
| 16:07.20 | eightyeight | ^ "$1" == "foo" |
| 16:07.36 | moriancumer | Thanks for the help and clarification. Let me apply some fo the changes. |
| 16:08.06 | eightyeight | of course, it would help if we had a better idea of what the script was actually doing |
| 16:08.20 | eightyeight | i'm assuming that "e=employees" and "g=groups" isn't the actual data you're processing |
| 16:08.29 | moriancumer | eightyeight: I think that's what I wanted. employee.sh 3 wold break up list in groups of 3. |
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| 16:10.10 | moriancumer | eightyeight: employees is the list of names groups is just "randomized list" |
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| 16:39.04 | goozbach | eightyeight: what's that in context to? |
| 16:39.40 | eightyeight | the tweet about entropy estimation you faved |
| 16:46.53 | goozbach | ahh |
| 16:46.57 | goozbach | haven't read it yet |
| 16:47.03 | goozbach | I use favs as bookmarks |
| 16:47.13 | goozbach | so I'll be reading it next time I've got free mins |
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| 16:52.44 | eightyeight | heh |
| 17:01.04 | shalkie | bummer keldwud |
| 17:02.02 | programmerq | yay snow. :) |
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| 17:23.04 | HumanCell1 | I'm looking around for a part-time/intern Woocommerce Store admin ... anyone know someone who might be interested, or where I might look? |
| 17:24.01 | HumanCell1 | josephscott: I meant to ask you at the CTO breakfast the other morning ... |
| 17:24.38 | josephscott | HumanCell1: there are a couple of local WP meetup groups, that would be a reasonable place to start looking |
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| 17:25.44 | voldemortensen | HumanCell1: there's a jobs channel in the UtahWP slack |
| 17:25.46 | voldemortensen | http://utahwp.com/slack/ |
| 17:26.17 | josephscott | there is even a new WP meetup in Park City that recently started |
| 17:26.32 | HumanCell1 | thanks both of you ... are these Meetup.com meet ups? |
| 17:26.52 | HumanCell1 | I'll also jump into slack |
| 17:27.06 | voldemortensen | http://www.meetup.com/utahwp/ |
| 17:38.23 | HumanCell1 | Huh ... how do I get into the WP slack? |
| 17:39.17 | HumanCell1 | I get a Team page ... entered my info .. do i have to wait for some approval? |
| 17:40.06 | voldemortensen | You should get an email. |
| 17:43.25 | jlp_znc | eightyeight: I think you were misunderstanding moriancumer's code... "employees" and "groups" are file names... hence cat $e and > $g |
| 17:44.56 | eightyeight | yeah. there were a lot of things not flushed out, so i was making assumptions based strictly on the pastebin. indeed. |
| 17:45.05 | jlp_znc | I'm not sure exactly what he was intending with xargs, though. or grep. |
| 17:45.56 | eightyeight | yeah. more info is needed. it's hard to make recommendations, when data is missing from the problem. |
| 17:53.28 | jlp_znc | I think he could have done it with a one liner in awk: |
| 17:53.38 | jlp_znc | awk 'BEGIN { print "Group 1 :" } { print; if (NR % 3 == 0) { printf "\nGroup %d :\n", (NR/3 + 1) } }' e |
| 17:53.49 | jlp_znc | or something like that |
| 17:54.51 | jlp_znc | (although that could print an extraneous Group N at the end) |
| 18:03.47 | jlp_znc | if he wanted a pure bash solution, he should explore the "read" command and look at a look like ct=1; group=2; echo "Group 1 :"; while read line; do echo $line; if [ $ct -eq 3 ]; then echo ""; echo Group $group :; group=`expr $group + 1`; ct=0; fi; ct=`expr $ct + 1`; done < e |
| 18:04.13 | jlp_znc | s/look at a look/it would look something/ |
| 18:05.25 | jlp_znc | and yes, I know there is some math built into bash so the use of expr is unnecessary, but I'm old. |
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| 20:28.58 | shalkie | Sometimes I find it so frustrating to watch people use vi/VIM. So many shortcuts they could/should be using... |
| 20:30.19 | voldemortensen | I recently learned about tabs. I felt silly having a screen session and opening vim in different screen windows. |
| 20:32.02 | voldemortensen | But then I remembered I've only really been using vim for a few months and it was a natural learning event. |
| 20:34.08 | asoc | shalkie: I know what you mean. I wish at times everyone would have popups like the guy that does vimcasts so you can see the key presses. |
| 20:34.33 | asoc | instead of just inturrupting them and asking how they just did what they did. |
| 20:38.41 | shalkie | Ah, I just (like ~2 mins) refered someone to vimcasts. :) |
| 20:39.44 | voldemortensen | if you use openelec on a raspberry pi there's a vimcasts plugin that grabs all the videos. |
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| 21:22.34 | shalkie | kodi |
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| 21:44.42 | Tod-Work | I always feel like I can't learn advanced vim stuff because I'm constantly on boxes that don't have that feature or that feature requires my vimrc so I can't have anything nice |
| 21:54.21 | jlp_znc | I never use advanced vim stuff, since I can't depend on it being there. I stick with basic vi stuff. just like I stick with basic sh stuff instead of all that groovy hip bash stuff. :-) |
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| 21:58.29 | joshh | you used to not be able to depend on vim, these days it's generally pretty safe |
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| 21:58.37 | joshh | in fact i don't think i've ever not had it |
| 21:59.05 | joshh | even on non-linux |
| 21:59.20 | jlp_znc | aix |
| 21:59.25 | joshh | never touched that |
| 21:59.32 | jlp_znc | lucky you |
| 21:59.50 | joshh | indeed |
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| 22:04.33 | asoc | jlp_znc: just build it yourself. |
| 22:04.49 | asoc | then you can depend on it being there. :) |
| 22:05.27 | asoc | well if you have somewhere you can pull it from.- |
| 22:05.42 | asoc | or a shared home directory. |
| 22:05.54 | jlp_znc | gotta have a compiler |
| 22:06.25 | jlp_znc | oh yeah, that's another of those things you will "always" have, :-) |
| 22:06.54 | asoc | Yea I guess that is true... |
| 22:07.51 | asoc | AIX can be a pain. Luckily the AIX boxes that I have worked on I either already had gcc installed or I was able to install it without anybody caring. |
| 22:08.38 | jlp_znc | yeah we couldn't put a compiler on production boxes at $EMPLOYER-5 |
| 22:09.26 | Tod-Work | asoc, I can not be on a (nor treat it as) dev environment on every box I'm on. For instance my router with busybox, built for an obscure SoC you don't have a cross-compiler for or specs for |
| 22:10.05 | Tod-Work | This is also why I am well versed in nano/pico |
| 22:10.15 | Tod-Work | because sometimes THAT is what you get. Or ed. |
| 22:10.17 | Tod-Work | *shiver* |
| 22:11.18 | asoc | jlp_znc: in those cases that is where we have just had pick up a tgz over ftp or something. But I can see where in scenarios that wouldn't fly either. |
| 22:11.40 | jlp_znc | ed for the win! |
| 22:12.06 | jlp_znc | I learned ed a looooong time ago because it was in /bin and you could be sure of having it even in single user mode. |
| 22:12.08 | asoc | Tod-Work: That is a good point. I didn't think about that scenario. It is a good point. |
| 22:12.54 | jlp_znc | I can manage with nano/pico, but I would prefer ed over either of them. |
| 22:12.58 | Tod-Work | It gets worse if you have to share normal linux boxes |
| 22:13.14 | Tod-Work | because then no, you CAN'T have vim with nice things at all |
| 22:13.36 | Tod-Work | if you do, you're taking away nice things from someone else that now can't use vim because you've broken the basics for THEM |
| 22:13.39 | jlp_znc | yeah, you can't even be sure your keyboard mapping will be something you are familiar with. |
| 22:13.39 | Tod-Work | or visa versa |
| 22:14.05 | jlp_znc | I always hated trying to help Tommy Knowlton out with stuff at Raytheon because he used a dvorak keyboard mapping. |
| 22:14.50 | Tod-Work | Like, most devs I know that use vim exclusively are already using a bunch of custom mappings and stuff which makes them useless on anything else but their machine and their specific thoughts about the structure of their code and how it should be laid out |
| 22:15.45 | Tod-Work | This is also a huge leader as to why a lot of those devs refuse to learn anything new, because they can't, and they dismiss it with nonsense like C/C++ being fast or X being unreadable |
| 22:15.48 | asoc | jlp_znc: But non qwerty is better!!!!00!! :P That is why I make sure I can switch back to qwerty if someone needs to look at something on my pc. |
| 22:15.49 | joshh | how often do you code on machines that can't have your dotfiles though |
| 22:16.52 | Tod-Work | joshh, depends on the day, but I do often edit configuration (which is often in code form) on a variety of environments that I don't get my dotfiles on (and let's not get started that I'm not a "Linux everywhere for all the things" zealot) |
| 22:17.03 | joshh | all our boxes pull and deploy everyones dotfiles on a cron basis |
| 22:17.13 | joshh | people also have functions to clone and install them etc |
| 22:17.19 | Tod-Work | editing xml files is a fairly common thing I do on other-peoples-machines |
| 22:17.36 | joshh | if you're doing one off editing of some config file or something it should be ok to use the stock vim conf |
| 22:17.48 | joshh | like nobody should be useless without it |
| 22:17.55 | Tod-Work | All you're saying is "it works in my walled garden, why can't it work for you?" |
| 22:18.07 | Tod-Work | You say that, but then... dvorak comes along |
| 22:18.40 | Tod-Work | Guy I used to work with uses programmer's dvorak. It's a great dividing line between places he can work on and places he can't |
| 22:18.46 | jlp_znc | alias vi='vim -C' |
| 22:19.02 | Tod-Work | pfft |
| 22:19.22 | Tod-Work | "here, just run these N commands before you can do anything on any number of boxes. Hope they work!" |
| 22:19.38 | joshh | ya some people do that, but whatever |
| 22:19.42 | joshh | life goes on |
| 22:19.52 | jlp_znc | I used to keep a subset of my .bashrc that I could deploy out to any machine and source on a whim. |
| 22:20.09 | jlp_znc | there were a few aliases and such, and my prompt string, that I really liked. |
| 22:20.41 | Tod-Work | I get that people want those environments and that's cool and all. I just can't myself. It limits me in ways I can't sacrifice. |
| 22:20.57 | Tod-Work | I wouldn't even advocate NOT isolating yourself somewhat, really |
| 22:21.34 | Tod-Work | it's worked for my career in a niche of knowing how to get in and do anything anywhere, but it's not ideal if I can't specialize a workflow either. Always tradeoffs |
| 22:21.56 | joshh | well like i said i've never been anywhere without vim, anywhere where i can't get my dotfiles onto all boxes easily, etc. and i can be just fine in the case of them missing |
| 22:22.32 | joshh | and it's nice to have thigns like a different prompt color for prod boxes vs other envs, etc |
| 22:23.35 | Tod-Work | I agree. I wasn't saying you're wrong for having that viewpoint. I was only sharing that some of us can't =c) Hopefully it was illustrative and we both appreciate the strengths and sacrifices of our approaches |
| 22:23.51 | jlp_znc | joshh: I used to work at a company where we developed an appliance. we were constantly re-deploying the test boxes (often multiple times a day) and we had to log into them via a maintenance account (not our own accounts). impossible to make sure you had your own dot files around. |
| 22:24.23 | joshh | ya, cases like that exist |
| 22:24.48 | joshh | but in general i think it makes little sense to just "deal with" not having any nice things |
| 22:25.07 | jlp_znc | at LinkedIn, though, the environment was a little different... there were tens of thousands of machines and thousands of users. no way to always deploy everyone's personal environment out, but you could depend on it sticking around if you pushed it out yourself. most of the time. |
| 22:25.59 | jlp_znc | the systems would generate a new home directory for you if you had never logged in there before, but they generally didn't clean things up, so you could get your environment on all machines you used (you just had to work at it a little). |
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| 22:26.12 | joshh | so we have like 30k boxes, a couple thousand users, and ya we deploy dotfiles on everything, they run a cronjob that pulls them them from s3 |
| 22:26.44 | joshh | you can just push your stuff to the dotfiles repo and it will be live on everything in 10 minutes or less |
| 22:27.08 | jlp_znc | wow. that's pretty cool. |
| 22:27.11 | joshh | only a couple hundred users do have custom dotfiles though, many don't care |
| 22:27.58 | jlp_znc | did you push everyone's dotfiles to personal (desktop) machines, too? |
| 22:28.02 | jlp_znc | s/did/do/ |
| 22:28.14 | joshh | no |
| 22:28.25 | joshh | that's all up to you |
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| 23:16.41 | shalkie | ~. |
| 23:16.41 | infobot | methinks ~. is not the escape sequence you're looking for. |
| 23:25.17 | jima | guessing someone forgot to hit enter first |
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| 23:57.02 | shalkie | jima: I thought I had, but I guess I didn't. |
| 23:57.29 | shalkie | I was also surprised that the connection was still valid given the troubles with Utopia today. |