| 00:01.14 | *** join/#utah Migs (~migs@205.122.50.108) |
| 00:03.13 | *** join/#utah Enemby (~Enemby@unaffiliated/enemby) |
| 00:06.29 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:16.24 | RyanE | The Lego Movie |
| 00:16.39 | RyanE | in which Batman is the funniest character. |
| 00:32.27 | *** join/#utah RuShan (~RuShan@68.69.169.116) |
| 00:34.03 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:54.15 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 01:36.32 | levi | First try! |
| 01:40.47 | *** join/#utah dumby (~dumby@unaffiliated/dumby) |
| 01:49.00 | *** join/#utah davido_ (~davido@c-50-168-241-168.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 02:59.57 | *** join/#utah davido_ (~davido@c-50-168-241-168.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:08.31 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:13.24 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:18.21 | *** join/#utah Guest27437 (~T4rku5@c-76-27-54-66.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:48.03 | *** join/#utah dumby (~dumby@165-243-47-212.rev.cloud.scaleway.com) |
| 03:54.48 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 03:58.05 | *** join/#utah Enemby (~Enemby@unaffiliated/enemby) |
| 04:09.11 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 04:15.19 | *** join/#utah T4rku5 (~T4rku5@c-76-27-54-66.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:15.20 | *** join/#utah T4rku5 (~T4rku5@unaffiliated/shunkydave) |
| 04:23.50 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 04:55.44 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@68.69.165.108) |
| 06:09.18 | *** join/#utah davido_ (~davido@c-50-168-241-168.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 06:11.45 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 06:18.02 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 06:18.57 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 06:56.13 | *** join/#utah OldCoder (~OldCoder@unaffiliated/oldcoder) |
| 08:19.29 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 08:21.19 | *** join/#utah dumby (~dumby@165-243-47-212.rev.cloud.scaleway.com) |
| 09:03.48 | *** join/#utah resplin (~richard@68.69.160.206) |
| 11:36.27 | *** join/#utah RuShan (~RuShan@2600:100e:b10a:c3a1:1f52:316:ddff:154) |
| 12:05.10 | *** join/#utah Squishy (~textual@162-223-221-68.evn.ngl.ninja) |
| 12:26.51 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@c-50-160-30-103.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:30.18 | *** join/#utah olli (~olli@c-73-20-95-1.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 12:55.21 | *** join/#utah tiwula (~lane@70.89.246.241-Busname-UT.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) |
| 13:45.39 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 14:08.25 | *** join/#utah josephscott (~josephsco@192.0.80.201) |
| 14:29.06 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 14:45.40 | *** join/#utah davido_work (~doswald@216.50.142.194) |
| 14:45.43 | *** join/#utah Heartsbane (tsharpe@shell.xmission.com) |
| 14:45.43 | *** join/#utah Heartsbane (tsharpe@unaffiliated/heartsbane) |
| 14:48.54 | *** join/#utah davido_work (~doswald@216.50.142.194) |
| 14:59.04 | unum | I say we heckle eightyeight |
| 14:59.23 | unum | you call THAT a random number |
| 14:59.30 | unum | ? |
| 14:59.45 | eightyeight | Hah |
| 14:59.51 | eightyeight | Prove it isn't |
| 15:01.19 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 15:02.13 | Tod-Work | I chose it from my head. Done. |
| 15:32.15 | shalkie | Is there anything truly random in the universe? |
| 15:37.58 | jfindlay | the source of random is quantum phenomena |
| 15:38.21 | jfindlay | what most people think is random is heavily coopted by chaos |
| 15:38.48 | jfindlay | very different phenomenologies |
| 15:39.28 | jfindlay | chaos can effectively be used as 'random' for mathematical purposes, and really the difference is almost philosophical |
| 15:39.44 | jfindlay | s/mathematical/useful/ |
| 16:12.22 | *** join/#utah jalbretsen (~jalbretse@sonic.itransact.com) |
| 16:14.38 | levi | The more specific you want to get about what "random" means, the more different definitions you'll find. Beyond a rather vague description, you need to specify a research context to get a more specific definition. |
| 16:17.35 | levi | This is true of most words, and is a source of a great deal of argument among people who can't accept multiple contextual definitions for technical terms they care about. |
| 16:20.03 | unum | middle class is my favorite :) |
| 16:20.16 | unum | of course it's the favorite of all politicians |
| 16:23.23 | shalkie | first class is my favorite... |
| 16:23.32 | shalkie | Wait, what are talking about? |
| 16:23.42 | shalkie | :D |
| 16:28.33 | unum | :) |
| 16:33.17 | eightyeight | prefers business class |
| 16:35.55 | jfindlay | levi: you should just accept my definitions because they are the correct ones |
| 16:36.06 | jfindlay | I've spent, like, half a day thinking that stuff out |
| 16:36.25 | eightyeight | Rule 30 is an interesting RNG |
| 16:38.01 | eightyeight | i'm not sure i agree that every true random generator is based on quantum phenomena, however |
| 16:38.36 | eightyeight | IE: atmospheric noise is considered as non-quantum |
| 16:38.57 | jfindlay | I would still argue that that variability originates from chaos |
| 16:40.46 | eightyeight | seems lightning strikes are the product of a chaotic dynamical weather system |
| 16:40.58 | eightyeight | i can agreed with that |
| 16:41.31 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 16:41.39 | eightyeight | i still wouldn't classify atmospheric noise as a quantum source of randomness, however |
| 16:43.21 | jfindlay | eightyeight: I'm not arguing that either, I am only experimenting with the idea that only quantum phenomena are random |
| 16:43.38 | eightyeight | that's my confusion |
| 16:43.47 | eightyeight | are you implying that non-quantum events are not random then? |
| 16:43.53 | jfindlay | everything else that has the appearance of randomness originates from chaos |
| 16:44.00 | eightyeight | oh, i see |
| 16:44.08 | jfindlay | yes, I am implying that they would be merely chaotic |
| 16:44.40 | eightyeight | so you don't agree that chaotic systems can be truly random |
| 16:44.48 | jfindlay | but reality is not so clean in this way as quantum effects are easily observable in macroscopic contexts |
| 16:45.33 | eightyeight | chaotic systems can be predictable in the shortterm, but are generally impossible to predict in the longterm |
| 16:45.38 | jfindlay | and moving beyond the Bohr interpretation of quantum phenomena, each quantum interaction only further entangles a progressively larger system |
| 16:45.41 | eightyeight | and they're highly sensitive to initial conditions |
| 16:45.57 | eightyeight | so, it seems like they are good sources of randomness, provided time has elapsed sufficiently |
| 16:46.11 | jfindlay | so that macroscopic phenomena are necessarily inextricable from their quantum origins |
| 16:46.58 | jfindlay | so, I'm thinking that you can observe randomness from an entropy source, but there's just no way to distinguish the random from the chaos |
| 16:47.15 | eightyeight | fair enough |
| 16:47.17 | jfindlay | but it practically does not matter |
| 16:47.24 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 16:47.57 | eightyeight | finds a power source |
| 16:48.01 | jfindlay | I'm not going to argue that I'm fully correct, it's just an interesting philosophical position to take |
| 16:48.22 | eightyeight | randomness is always a fun philosophical discussion |
| 16:48.59 | jfindlay | and it seems that levi already has more interesting things to say about randomness than I do ;-) |
| 16:49.24 | eightyeight | i would like to see some USB devices of photons traveling through a semitransparent mirror as a TRNG |
| 16:49.28 | eightyeight | whitened, of course |
| 16:50.14 | eightyeight | seems all people want to do is diode breakdown, shot noise, thermal noise, etc. |
| 16:51.28 | jfindlay | yeah, it would be interesting to study computational sources of random information |
| 16:58.49 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 17:01.17 | jfindlay | eightyeight: let's quit our jobs and just do math and philosophy all day |
| 17:01.31 | eightyeight | Yay |
| 17:10.24 | *** join/#utah dkelson (~dkelson@63-248-208-199.static.sdyl0425.digis.net) |
| 17:20.50 | levi | If you can't perfectly reconstruct the generation model and the outputs are statistically random, then there's no practical difference between unpredictably chaotic and truly random. |
| 17:22.23 | levi | And apparently there are some physicists that disagree about quantum phenomena being truly random; they're just the results of some process we can't observe. But it's purely a philosophical distinction at that level. |
| 17:24.09 | *** join/#utah jlp_znc (jlp@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fedf:3238) |
| 17:28.57 | eightyeight | Fun discussion however |
| 17:34.57 | *** join/#utah dumby (~dumby@unaffiliated/dumby) |
| 17:50.56 | *** join/#utah SunSparc (~jonathan@23-228-170-152.mci.googlefiber.net) |
| 17:52.34 | *** join/#utah rainbows (~rainbows@unaffiliated/rainbows) |
| 17:56.19 | *** join/#utah Enemby (~Enemby@unaffiliated/enemby) |
| 18:00.36 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 18:16.26 | jalbretsen | jfindlay: No love for physics? |
| 18:19.15 | jfindlay | jalbretsen: physics, philosophy, what's the difference? :) |
| 18:19.45 | jalbretsen | is that like astronomy and astrology? ;) |
| 18:23.24 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 18:32.32 | eightyeight | jalbretsen: star trek and star wars |
| 18:34.04 | jfindlay | lol |
| 18:34.35 | jfindlay | I enjoy philosophy that is the formal study of physics |
| 18:35.26 | jfindlay | I wish that physicists were not such secularists with their own field; it detracts from their credibility and sincerity |
| 18:35.36 | jalbretsen | go on |
| 18:36.23 | jfindlay | to me the most compelling features of physical theory are the philosophical merits |
| 18:37.31 | jfindlay | I feel that if you're studying or practicing physics, but don't care about why you're doing what you're doing, you're just an intellectual mercenary |
| 18:37.43 | jfindlay | like someone who becomes a doctor or a programmer for the money |
| 18:38.01 | jfindlay | you go into physics for the perceived academic standing |
| 18:38.48 | jfindlay | but do you even really care about what you're doing? If you did, then you sold your soul to academia long ago and are not even a real person anymore |
| 18:38.48 | jalbretsen | I don't know a single physicist (or scientist in general) that goes into it for the money, despite what Fox news wants me to believe. |
| 18:39.06 | jfindlay | jalbretsen: that's not what I said |
| 18:39.33 | jfindlay | people go into science for the gratification of perceived intelligence |
| 18:39.50 | jfindlay | the anti-money aspect actually reinforces this |
| 18:40.31 | jfindlay | 'I could have made a plethora of money, but I decided to sacrifice that for science, thus making me so noble' |
| 18:43.17 | jalbretsen | Pretty much every one I frequently interact with care about what they are doing. A lot. But my interaction is a small dataset |
| 18:43.29 | jalbretsen | everyone in academics |
| 18:43.37 | jalbretsen | including myself. |
| 18:43.43 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 18:44.39 | jalbretsen | however I will say I have seen a lot of "academic politics" which made me sad |
| 18:46.25 | jfindlay | yeah, probably most people do science because they love it, but academia does its best to destroy that |
| 18:50.23 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 18:53.03 | *** join/#utah RyanE (rberick@shell.xmission.com) |
| 19:00.08 | jalbretsen | jfindlay: Now I have seen that happen in many different ways |
| 19:00.50 | jalbretsen | that is why I love being an adjunct. No meetings, no proposals, no politics, just go and teach physics. |
| 19:01.09 | jalbretsen | The biggest discussion we've had is the book used. |
| 19:05.21 | jfindlay | jalbretsen: me too, that's part of the reason I dropped out |
| 19:44.19 | *** join/#utah SunSparc (~jonathan@23-228-170-152.mci.googlefiber.net) |
| 19:53.13 | *** join/#utah RuShan (~RuShan@2600:100e:b10a:c3a1:1f52:316:ddff:154) |
| 19:53.23 | *** join/#utah josephscott (~josephsco@proxy.automattic.com) |
| 20:06.54 | *** join/#utah tristanbob_l (~tristanbo@137.190.208.10) |
| 20:11.00 | *** join/#utah AimerPaddle (~AimerPadd@63.228.203.97) |
| 20:19.37 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 20:35.18 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 20:47.50 | *** join/#utah wargasm (~wargasm@137.190.104.100) |
| 20:51.06 | *** join/#utah SunSparc (~jonathan@23-228-170-152.mci.googlefiber.net) |
| 21:06.26 | *** join/#utah josephscott (~josephsco@192.0.80.201) |
| 21:26.03 | Migs | http://imgur.com/gallery/UNq4r |
| 22:06.20 | *** join/#utah AimerPaddle (~AimerPadd@63.228.203.97) |
| 22:12.38 | *** join/#utah josephscott (~josephsco@192.0.80.201) |
| 22:12.59 | romanovic | Migs: what exactly are they trying to say about Mounds bars? |
| 22:31.30 | eightyeight | haha: https://anders.unix.se/2015/10/28/screenshots-from-developers--unix-people-2002/ |
| 22:31.40 | eightyeight | "I donât know how to make a screenshot, because I normally use my computer in text-mode. I have X and GNOME installed, but I use them only occasionally." -- Richard Stallman |
| 22:32.09 | levi | Migs: My wife was laughing at that last night while I was trying to watch a show on TV. |
| 22:32.43 | levi | eightyeight: Yup, that's RMS all right. |
| 22:33.37 | levi | So, there's currently (or at least as of a week or so ago) an open position for lead Emacs maintainer. The mailing list discussion about it was kind of interesting. |
| 22:34.36 | eightyeight | those screenshots bring back memories |
| 22:36.24 | levi | I actually thought that the things RMS wrote in it were pretty reasonable, although I still think he's making some poor strategic decisions in some areas relating to how GNU software is developed. |
| 22:39.54 | eightyeight | i don't have any issues with his philosophies toward software freedom. i think they're sound. |
| 22:39.55 | eightyeight | i do have issues with his personality |
| 22:40.00 | eightyeight | i think he's an asshole |
| 22:40.30 | levi | He was very civil in this thread, despite several people offering opportunities to be not-so-civil. |
| 22:40.50 | eightyeight | he may have just had an off-day when i met him |
| 22:41.01 | eightyeight | but he was very much not so when he spoke at weber state not too long ago |
| 22:42.00 | levi | Maybe he's better at controlling his self-presentation over email. |
| 22:42.30 | programmerq | I've talked to a few folks that have met him that have described strang social interactions. |
| 22:42.35 | programmerq | strange* |
| 22:42.59 | eightyeight | i think he may be either autistic or have aspergers |
| 22:43.07 | programmerq | that was my thought as well. |
| 22:43.08 | levi | I really wish he'd stuck to writing code. He was good at that, and there's a much lower expectation of social graces there. |
| 22:55.33 | pashdown | shut up! |
| 22:55.37 | pashdown | goes back to writing code |
| 22:56.48 | jfindlay | lol |
| 22:58.52 | SunSparc | Sometimes you just need to shout at someone. :) |
| 23:18.34 | programmerq | eightyeight: are you at saintcon? |
| 23:19.27 | eightyeight | Yeah |
| 23:19.53 | programmerq | I'm in the challenge room. |