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| 01:21.44 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds |
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| 04:10.44 | levi | unum: The point isn't spending more than you make, it's spending all that you spend *through* some channel that kicks stuff back to you. |
| 04:12.24 | levi | unum: I don't have the patience to deal with routing my transactions through rewards kickback channels. |
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| 16:40.08 | saazam1976 | jima, hi |
| 16:42.33 | saazam1976 | infobot |
| 16:43.18 | saazam1976 | samba |
| 16:43.56 | bregalad | ~napoleon |
| 16:43.56 | infobot | There's like a buttload of gangs at this school. One of them kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo-staff. |
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| 16:45.03 | bregalad | levi: spend all your stuff through #utah |
| 16:46.40 | Tod-Work | I'll give you a kickback in nachos |
| 16:51.00 | jima | that was...odd. |
| 17:04.00 | Tod-Work | jima, friend of yours? |
| 17:07.45 | jima | not at all. |
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| 19:33.46 | keldwud | bus driver took my daughter's bus pass away from her today. |
| 19:36.14 | Tod-Work | keldwud, is that even legal? |
| 19:36.48 | keldwud | because it's my bus pass. I couldn't find hers this morning |
| 19:37.03 | keldwud | she has her own but I lose shit all the time |
| 19:37.06 | keldwud | ever since I had a kid |
| 19:37.22 | keldwud | but I still don't understand why the bus driver would go out of his way to take it from her |
| 19:37.31 | keldwud | especially since she rides the goddamn bus a couple times per week |
| 19:37.36 | keldwud | with her own bus pass |
| 19:37.45 | keldwud | something is up with that |
| 19:38.07 | keldwud | I could see why somebody would go out of their way to enforce the rules on an adult trying to take advantage |
| 19:38.26 | Tod-Work | yeah, the moment you said it was your bus pass I wasn't on your side on this one |
| 19:38.30 | keldwud | but seriously, who tries to get a 7 year old girl in trouble for taking the bus with her dad's bus pass? |
| 19:38.40 | keldwud | I get that he's in the right |
| 19:38.42 | keldwud | legally |
| 19:38.44 | Tod-Work | life is unfair |
| 19:38.57 | Tod-Work | does she have an id? |
| 19:39.00 | keldwud | no |
| 19:39.08 | keldwud | so he can't prove that it's not hers anyway |
| 19:39.16 | Tod-Work | so like basically you've got a 7 year old claiming to be an adult male |
| 19:39.20 | keldwud | yeah |
| 19:39.23 | Tod-Work | 7 year old girl* |
| 19:39.43 | keldwud | her bus pass is probably buried in the car somewhere |
| 19:39.58 | Tod-Work | did the bus at least take her where she needed to go? |
| 19:40.18 | keldwud | pretty sure, yeah, the school called me and left me a message |
| 19:40.28 | keldwud | stating that she got the bus pass confiscated |
| 19:40.35 | Tod-Work | yeah, at least he was nice about enforcing that policy |
| 19:40.54 | keldwud | rules is rules |
| 19:40.56 | Tod-Work | I'm squarely with the bus driver on this one. |
| 19:41.00 | keldwud | zero tolerance and all that |
| 19:41.20 | keldwud | we don't have room for judgement calls. judgement calls puts you in a position where people get free rides on the bus |
| 19:41.23 | Tod-Work | Unless I knew your daughter as the bus driver, I'd do the same |
| 19:41.23 | keldwud | and we can't have that |
| 19:41.28 | keldwud | we'd have utter chaos without rules |
| 19:41.49 | Tod-Work | more like the bus driver doesn't give a damn about society and big picture and would like to just keep his job |
| 19:42.02 | keldwud | life is so dumb |
| 19:42.04 | keldwud | seriously |
| 19:42.16 | keldwud | at least he protected himself |
| 19:42.18 | keldwud | from getting fired |
| 19:42.30 | Tod-Work | yeah, thank god he can feed his own family |
| 19:42.38 | keldwud | that's not the part I think is dumb |
| 19:42.48 | Tod-Work | yeah, but it comes right along with the part you do |
| 19:42.52 | keldwud | I think it's dumb that he would even have to worry about his job security for letting a 7 year old girl ride the bus |
| 19:43.02 | keldwud | who has her own bus pass |
| 19:43.04 | keldwud | but didn't today |
| 19:43.08 | keldwud | so she used a bus pass |
| 19:43.21 | Tod-Work | and got a free ride anyway |
| 19:43.28 | keldwud | but how is it free? |
| 19:43.31 | keldwud | the bus pass paid for it |
| 19:43.41 | Tod-Work | No, the bus pass paid for YOU to ride |
| 19:43.43 | RyanE | obvs. she's a terrorist. Thank heavens the driver confiscated the pass. Imagine what she could've done with it!!! |
| 19:44.12 | keldwud | that's the part I think is pretty weird. I do understand *why* they have a non-transferable rule for passes |
| 19:44.17 | keldwud | it's to keep people from taking advantage |
| 19:44.24 | keldwud | so you don't have one bus pass being used for ten people |
| 19:44.43 | RyanE | Personally, I think it was kinda a jerk move, although you have some culpability here, as well... |
| 19:44.44 | keldwud | but we've both paid for our own bus passes so the fare has been paid one way or another |
| 19:44.52 | keldwud | I do have some culpability, absolutely |
| 19:44.54 | RyanE | yeah, but the driver doesn't have a way of knowing that. |
| 19:44.57 | keldwud | I don't deny that part |
| 19:44.59 | RyanE | without it being a much smaller world. |
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| 19:45.06 | keldwud | I was too lazy to find my daughter's bus pass |
| 19:45.08 | RyanE | unfortunate circumstances. |
| 19:45.11 | keldwud | before she got on the bus |
| 19:45.25 | Tod-Work | I mean this utterly seriously. You can't have this both ways. Either you want to have civil services your daughter can take part of, or you want anarchy that fits your whims. The bus driver did what he was supposed to AND still got your daughter to school. That's a bus driver going above and beyond while still passing the inconvenience onto you (where it does, in fact, belong) |
| 19:46.31 | Tod-Work | Again, if the bus driver knew your daughter personally, I think if I were him I'd let it slide once or twice with a warning to your daughter, maybe right YOU a note about not doing that, but I'm sure the bus driver doesn't |
| 19:46.53 | RyanE | hence why it would not be a problem in a smaller society. |
| 19:46.58 | Tod-Work | mhmmm |
| 19:47.06 | RyanE | sadly, that time has passed. |
| 19:47.16 | Tod-Work | small towns do exist, but they don't have buses |
| 19:47.36 | Tod-Work | and they don't have jobs for graveyard IT guys =c) |
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| 19:52.28 | keldwud | I get what you're saying, it just doesn't sit well with me that I live in a society where we threaten a person's financial security for losing a company $2 |
| 19:52.45 | keldwud | or even better, *potentially losing |
| 19:53.06 | keldwud | I'm not even saying that it shouldn't be like that, I'm just saying it makes me, personally, super uncomfortable |
| 19:53.18 | RyanE | we don't know that the person would lose his job for letting it slide. |
| 19:53.21 | RyanE | that's a major assumption |
| 19:53.22 | Tod-Work | If your financial security is bound to a bus pass, I'd take better care not to lose it. no? Why does this responsibility lie with others AS WELL as you? |
| 19:53.26 | keldwud | that was the argument Tod-Work used |
| 19:53.45 | RyanE | Tod-Work is obviously in an argumentative state. Time to back away. :) |
| 19:53.50 | keldwud | lol |
| 19:53.51 | Tod-Work | Given UTA's policies, if he was caught he could easily be punished up to and including termination |
| 19:53.53 | keldwud | yeah |
| 19:54.11 | keldwud | that's the part that makes me uncomfortable |
| 19:54.19 | keldwud | that we live in a society where that can happen |
| 19:54.30 | Tod-Work | I'm really not sure why that bothers you |
| 19:54.43 | keldwud | that the $2 is worth more than the financial security of an employee who was on shift when the loss happened |
| 19:55.04 | keldwud | that's placing profit above humans |
| 19:55.07 | Tod-Work | Like, where exactly is the line drawn and how do you avoid the bureaucracy surrounding that and yet still get things like a functioning library? |
| 19:55.32 | keldwud | I'm not proposing any alternatives, just stating that I don't like the way it makes me feel |
| 19:55.36 | keldwud | I'm not arguing against it |
| 19:55.56 | Tod-Work | If you don't understand why administrators err on the side of bureaucracy, that's a different statement than saying you know society shouldn't err on that side |
| 19:56.02 | Tod-Work | I see |
| 19:56.18 | Tod-Work | does UTA operate as a profit company? |
| 19:56.24 | Tod-Work | I honestly don't know |
| 19:56.38 | keldwud | I misspoke, you're right, I don't think they are for profit |
| 19:57.01 | keldwud | so then I'm not even sure what they would be fighting for if they fired a driver over such a situation? |
| 19:57.06 | keldwud | the principle of the thing? |
| 19:57.06 | Tod-Work | They could be, but on a project basis, maybe? Like light rail projects often charge fares to cover their costs until those are paid off |
| 19:58.02 | Tod-Work | For breaking the rules. Having a large organization where unknowns are plentiful is a very, very dangerous problem to have in many ways |
| 19:58.06 | Tod-Work | and not in the terroristy way |
| 19:58.29 | Tod-Work | It is often small things adding up along those chains that land us in big, big problems |
| 19:58.44 | keldwud | I still think it falls too far into the "zero tolerance" philosophy |
| 19:59.03 | keldwud | I get why it is an attractive philosophy to have for many entities and people |
| 19:59.09 | keldwud | it feels safe |
| 19:59.10 | Tod-Work | zero tolerance is, again, a better policy to administer from than a select few tolerances someone decided on randomly |
| 19:59.16 | keldwud | and it's easy to understand |
| 19:59.22 | Tod-Work | If THIS policy needs to change, that's different, and doable |
| 19:59.24 | keldwud | there are no gray areas, just black and white |
| 19:59.29 | keldwud | and that makes it more efficient |
| 19:59.55 | Tod-Work | at a certain size it's actually /necessary/ for operation |
| 20:00.05 | keldwud | just not a fan of it, personally, and that's just an opinion I'm sharing |
| 20:00.10 | Tod-Work | This is also why I don't work in large corporations |
| 20:00.21 | Tod-Work | because I largely agree for many things |
| 20:07.45 | romanovic | i'm not a fan of zero tolerance policies, especially as organisations grow larger. it's a sign that you don't/can't trust your own employees and managers to make rational human decisions at the lowest possible level, which would be much more efficient |
| 20:08.45 | bregalad | 1-tolerance is way better |
| 20:09.34 | romanovic | instead you see growing problems and use the most blunt weapon available to bludgeon the problem away |
| 20:09.52 | programmerq | in a school setting, zero tolerance policies can result in severe consequences to young people. This is not healthy since making mistakes is part of growing up. |
| 20:11.12 | programmerq | kid brings pocket knife to school by accident. zero tolerance could see him expelled, which can seriously affect his life negatively. |
| 20:11.32 | romanovic | programmerq: agreed. it seems like "zero tolerance" and "school" are themes that come up together frequently in the news |
| 20:12.27 | programmerq | the bus pass thing sucks. seems like you should be able to petition to get it back? |
| 20:12.46 | programmerq | it could be as simple as having accidentally grabbed the wrong one. |
| 20:14.12 | Tod-Work | romanovic, at a certain size, you CAN'T trust your own employees and managers, and such policies are there to counterbalance the negative affects trusting such employees would have. Being overzealous on that front is better than not being enough, because one screw up mean a lot of people lose their jobs because we wanted to be nice. |
| 20:14.49 | Tod-Work | This also means a lot of good people will also just lose their jobs needlessly over time, but the opposite is everyone losing, not nobody losing |
| 20:15.03 | Tod-Work | (and everyone here just means those not at the top, sadly) |
| 20:15.10 | bregalad | yeah, that one dude screwed up so all of you people are going to be fired! |
| 20:15.12 | bregalad | :) |
| 20:15.15 | romanovic | there was an article somewhere... talking about how frequently schools just call the police and have students arrested now, for non-violent incidents (cheating, social media posts, mostly harmless pranks). It's sad. |
| 20:15.44 | Tod-Work | bregalad, more like the company loses face because there aren't controls around 1 person's job, malicious or not, and thus revenue stops, and entire divisions are gone |
| 20:15.54 | Tod-Work | i agree that in a school it's just dumb |
| 20:16.47 | bregalad | I never understood why people get fired to appease a belligerent customer, especially when nobody did anything willfully wrong |
| 20:17.13 | Tod-Work | That's still just erring on the side of caution. Turns out that's needless erring, but old habits die really, really hard |
| 20:17.49 | bregalad | I would be very wary of working for a company that has a history of doing that |
| 20:18.02 | Tod-Work | granted certain powerful people will still exist and be able to be said belligerent customer if they want, they just never are in practice |
| 20:19.34 | Tod-Work | still, faced with the option of reducing your revenue by 60% and firing one employee who doesn't deserve it, the choice becomes pretty clear, albeit unfair. It's an interesting choice, but it's not much of one. You make your stand if you want, but you're likely just delaying letting that employee go, so this becomes a problem |
| 20:20.02 | Tod-Work | can you replace the lost revenue? How fast? Can you make that employee look like they got fired instead, but not actually fire them? |
| 20:20.39 | Tod-Work | was always pretty direct with such customers that they weren't welcome, but they also weren't a huge portion of revenue |
| 20:20.59 | Tod-Work | makes my "spine" seem far less useful |
| 20:21.36 | bregalad | what I don't understand is that firing an employee who was closes to the problem, even when they clearly did nothing wrong, and may have been even working hard to fix the problem, somehow makes customers feel that 'something was done' |
| 20:22.56 | bregalad | if the problem was not human, then the solution is going to be not human as well: use better equipment, update procedures, etc. |
| 20:24.51 | bregalad | why should firing people appear to be even part of that 'solution'? It seems that this would only make sense to people unintelligent enough to consult their emotions when making serious decisions |
| 20:26.12 | programmerq | keldwud: how did the bus driver detect the pass wasn't her's? does a name pop up or something? |
| 20:28.46 | Tod-Work | bregalad, because humans are dumb and want to feel powerful? |
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| 20:29.23 | bregalad | doesn't ever want to work for a 'powerful' person |
| 20:30.44 | Tod-Work | This entire conversation is rather depressing, isn't it |
| 20:31.14 | Tod-Work | Thank heavens this cheery song just came on |
| 20:31.24 | bregalad | ~napoleon |
| 20:31.24 | infobot | Sweet! That's like a dollar an hour! |
| 20:32.03 | Tod-Work | oddly relevant |
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| 20:35.11 | bregalad | unfortunately, it seems that if you want the big kilodollars, you have to work for BigCorp, where such managerial hubris and corporate caprice knows no restraint against the people who get the real work done |
| 20:39.01 | bregalad | why is it that whenever I have to use bitbucket, I feel dirty? |
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| 20:50.44 | jlp_znc | programmerq: I'm assuming there is some distinction visible on the pass between a pass for an "adult" and a pass for a "minor", since the minor's pass costs $21 less than the adult pass. |
| 20:50.58 | jlp_znc | and wasn't today the last day for the september pass, anyway? |
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| 21:03.52 | Tod-Work | jlp_znc, do they not have yearly passes? |
| 21:04.27 | romanovic | bregalad: what's wrong with bitbucket? |
| 21:05.03 | romanovic | has never used bitbucket |
| 21:05.42 | jlp_znc | they have monthly passes, and then they have the fare pay card and the various eco-passes. |
| 21:06.11 | jlp_znc | fare pay cards do not expire, so if you got that confiscated you might be out whatever money you had on the card. the eco pass is an annual thing. |
| 21:09.08 | jlp_znc | as far as I know, the fare pay card is transferrable, but the eco pass is definitely not. |
| 21:13.32 | jlp_znc | at bluehost, I was paying about $180/month on my fare pay card for frontrunner and bus (I worked from home typically one day/week). at verisys, I have an ecopass and I pay $150 for the whole year (well, what's left of the year... it expires on 31 DEC). |
| 21:19.11 | programmerq | $180.00/month? seems like it'd be more economical to get a super cheap car and pay for gas/insurance |
| 21:22.12 | jlp_znc | have you driven from SLC to Provo and back during rush hour? |
| 21:22.16 | Tod-Work | programmerq, in fact, it IS, as eightyeight can attest (he's done the math) |
| 21:22.22 | Tod-Work | unless you can't drive, of course |
| 21:23.17 | programmerq | I have, but from my (admittedly limited) experience, the bus/rail system can take over twice as long against normal traffic, and still underperforms compared to heavy traffic |
| 21:23.26 | jnbek | but that's like 98% of ppl on the road in Utah, Tod-Work |
| 21:23.43 | jlp_znc | www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvV3nn_de2k |
| 21:23.45 | programmerq | so unless you live and work a stone's throw from a station, and have to make zero transfers, it just isn't worth it in my book. |
| 21:23.52 | Tod-Work | slaps his knee, on the inside |
| 21:23.55 | programmerq | unless you can work on the train and bill for that time |
| 21:23.58 | jnbek | lol |
| 21:24.03 | programmerq | then it's worth it |
| 21:24.20 | jlp_znc | I would sleep on the train in the morning and surf in the evening. :-) |
| 21:25.11 | jlp_znc | it's not nearly as bad as it was when I used to ride the bus to BYU every day. Of course, back then the premium bus pass was only $60/mo. |
| 21:25.18 | jlp_znc | instead of $196 |
| 21:25.21 | jnbek | I used to do the train thing when I was living in Cali and working in San Francisco |
| 21:25.37 | jlp_znc | I rode caltrain in california, too. company paid for a pass. |
| 21:25.50 | jnbek | cost $0.95 on the BART plus ~20-30 mins of walking |
| 21:25.52 | programmerq | yeah, in the bay area, BART can be faster than taking a car |
| 21:26.02 | jlp_znc | I didn't have a car there. |
| 21:26.16 | programmerq | I travel there regularly. I have my own clipper card. |
| 21:26.18 | programmerq | I never rent a car |
| 21:26.25 | jnbek | on those rare occasions, you could use your BART ticket to get on the AC Transit and get an all day transfer |
| 21:26.33 | jlp_znc | I lived about four blocks from the san jose caltrain station and work ran a shuttle to/from the mtn view station. |
| 21:26.52 | jlp_znc | I have a clipper card kicking around somewhere, too... still has about $18 on it, I think. |
| 21:27.11 | programmerq | mine is in my wallet, actually. |
| 21:27.18 | programmerq | I'd forget it if I didn't keep it there |
| 21:27.41 | jlp_znc | I let dremex use it when he and his wife went to SF a while back... might not have gotten it back. :-/ |
| 21:27.43 | jnbek | I probably still have an old BART ticket or two hidden somewhere, lol |
| 21:27.48 | programmerq | jnbek: this is a great video that you starred in. when was it made? |
| 21:28.15 | jnbek | oh, I was much younger |
| 21:28.21 | jnbek | like 12 or something |
| 21:28.28 | jnbek | I looked older for my age, eh? |
| 21:28.31 | jnbek | :-P |
| 21:28.40 | jlp_znc | what video is this? |
| 21:28.45 | jlp_znc | did I miss a link? |
| 21:28.51 | programmerq | www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvV3nn_de2k |
| 21:28.59 | jnbek | I t6hink he's referring to your's jlp_znc |
| 21:29.02 | jnbek | ya |
| 21:29.05 | programmerq | yup |
| 21:29.09 | jlp_znc | oh, ha. |
| 21:29.33 | unum | for me rail+bus takes about 30 minutes vs 20 minutes coming into work |
| 21:29.43 | unum | and 45 minutes vs 30 minutes going home |
| 21:29.52 | unum | but I do get to read the wheel of time |
| 21:30.03 | unum | instead of sitting there frustrated that I'm not moving |
| 21:30.52 | jlp_znc | when I was working at bluehost, I was on the train about 48 minutes and bus about 5. then walked about 12 minutes to/from the office. |
| 21:31.33 | jlp_znc | but I would usually get a ride to/from the train station in the morning/evening since that was a 30 minute walk. nearest bus stop to my house is a 25 minute walk. |
| 21:31.54 | eightyeight | Tod-Work: you mean https://pthree.org/2014/08/26/the-outrageous-fares-of-the-utah-transit-authority/ ? |
| 21:31.56 | eightyeight | programmerq: ^ |
| 21:32.09 | Tod-Work | why yes, yes I do |
| 21:32.14 | eightyeight | :) |
| 21:33.10 | unum | ya it costs me twice as much to drive as it does to take train+bus which is the biggest deterent |
| 21:33.16 | programmerq | yeah, they'd have to halve the rates for me to want to do UTA instead of driving. |
| 21:33.29 | jlp_znc | now I'm on the train one stop (eight minutes) and the bus about three minutes. |
| 21:33.46 | programmerq | even if I'm in traffic, I still feel like I'm more in control. I hate taking public transport. any mistake there can cost you an hour |
| 21:38.58 | unum | oops I worded that backwards |
| 21:39.03 | unum | twice as much to take the train |
| 21:39.26 | unum | and I don't take front runner |
| 21:40.25 | keldwud | programmerq, any mistake in driving a car can cost you your life :-p |
| 21:40.51 | jalbretsen | wow, I need to get a job at UTA and get a salary increase |
| 21:40.53 | keldwud | according to the signs on our freeways, we sometimes go three or four days without a fatality! |
| 21:41.09 | programmerq | keldwud: caltrain is shut down regularly due to public transit deaths |
| 21:41.21 | programmerq | a navigational mistake is what I'm talking about |
| 21:41.36 | keldwud | aren't most public transit deaths from people driving their vehicles, though? |
| 21:41.40 | keldwud | or walking in front of a moving train? |
| 21:41.42 | programmerq | uta has its share of deaths |
| 21:41.52 | programmerq | keldwud: yes, but you could say the same for driving a car |
| 21:42.06 | keldwud | but I get what you're saying, I was just being a pedant |
| 21:42.09 | keldwud | I'm having a rough day |
| 21:42.35 | keldwud | the driver probably noticed she had a different pass today than she did yesterday |
| 21:42.43 | keldwud | to answer your earlier question while I was out |
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| 21:44.24 | jlp_znc | does the monthly adult pass still have a big A on it? |
| 21:45.02 | programmerq | keldwud: ah, so they are obviously visually distinguishable |
| 21:45.18 | keldwud | no, they look different |
| 21:49.54 | programmerq | does frontrunner see a decent amount of use? |
| 21:50.06 | keldwud | I know during commute times it is standing room only |
| 21:50.17 | keldwud | from firsthand experience, but that is still anecdotal |
| 21:50.21 | keldwud | as I don't see every car |
| 21:51.09 | keldwud | oh wait, I meant affirmative for your analysis that they are distinguishable. I read it as "indistinguishable" sorry. I suck at reading today |
| 22:06.48 | bregalad | I ride frontrunner every day, and at least between SLC and Lehi, I've seen about a 0.2 increase in riders over the past year that I've been riding |
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| 22:15.31 | jlp_znc | there were quite a few on the old Comet car this morning. I usually sit at that end of the train in the morning becasue it's usualy easier to make my transfer. |
| 22:16.06 | jlp_znc | the train is *always* late, though. I don't think that particular one is never on time, either. usually aboug 5-10 minutes late. |
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| 22:16.48 | bregalad | I'm hoping they'll add a new car soon |
| 22:17.30 | jlp_znc | there is definitely room at the platform. caltrain had five cars each train. |
| 22:18.43 | bregalad | another bike car actually, every train should have at least two |
| 22:18.59 | bregalad | because bike+frontrunner makes so much sense |
| 22:19.35 | bregalad | a bike makes train transit much more useful |
| 22:21.01 | jlp_znc | agreed. that would be nice. |
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| 22:28.56 | unum | I wish trax had bike cars |
| 22:29.17 | unum | I used to take my bike on trax but I like being able to sit down and read |
| 22:29.41 | shalkie | But fighting with the bikes is what makes the (de)boarding process fun! |
| 22:30.11 | shalkie | Just a reminder: OALUG is this evening. Main event is 7pm at Startup Ogden. |
| 22:32.00 | jlp_znc | VTA (in San Jose) had bike racks on their light rail. worked pretty well. |
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