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| 01:32.29 | shalkie | Hey eightyeight mind if I PM you really quickly>? |
| 01:32.46 | eightyeight | Sure |
| 01:33.19 | eightyeight | (I don't mind I mean) |
| 01:33.31 | shalkie | :) |
| 01:33.36 | shalkie | I sent you a PM. |
| 01:33.59 | eightyeight | You did? |
| 01:34.05 | eightyeight | I don't see it |
| 01:34.08 | eightyeight | One sec |
| 01:34.11 | shalkie | Yeah, but I haven't signed in. :-P |
| 01:34.22 | eightyeight | Ah hah |
| 01:34.39 | eightyeight | OK. Try now. I -R |
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| 08:36.30 | Sargun | http://www.gophercon.in/blog/2014/09/25/leviinterview/ ? |
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| 13:56.03 | eightyeight | Sargun: ? |
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| 15:06.35 | harleypig | In a systemd file, I use the 'User=username' to tell systemd to run as that user, correct? |
| 15:09.24 | jlp_znc | doesn't "man systemd" tell you that? or is systemd one of the new "linux" things that people just don't bother writing man pages for because, hey, man pages are so 1970? |
| 15:14.12 | harleypig | If it does, I'm notfinding it. But other documentation, and tutorials, on the web I've found have said that the service file [Service] section should contain a User=user if I want the service to run as a u ser. |
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| 15:14.27 | harleypig | jlp_znc: a little angst there? |
| 15:14.33 | jlp_znc | a little |
| 15:14.47 | jlp_znc | one of the things I despise about linux is the lack of man pages for things. |
| 15:14.56 | jlp_znc | or the lack of suitable documentation in general. |
| 15:15.21 | harleypig | ? I'm not sure what you're seeing, but there's lots of docs for linux |
| 15:15.26 | jlp_znc | are there any examples that use the user= functionality? |
| 15:15.42 | jlp_znc | "lots of docs" != "suitable/usable documentation" |
| 15:18.13 | harleypig | There are examples ... they all seem to just have User=username |
| 15:19.03 | bregalad | jlp_znc: I'm sure you have to use a special docs reader, documentationdctl read information manual |
| 15:20.08 | bregalad | also, what is going on with that tautology? |
| 15:28.22 | jlp_znc | yes, documentationdctl... of course. |
| 15:28.32 | jlp_znc | because man pages were inadequate in some way. |
| 15:29.06 | jlp_znc | like log messages. what was wrong with a text file of individual log messages one per line? |
| 15:29.19 | jlp_znc | ~blame java |
| 15:29.19 | infobot | ACTION blames java (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
| 15:31.19 | jlp_znc | https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/systemd-is-obsolete.49372/ |
| 15:31.55 | fungus | harleypig, jlp_znc, man systemd.unit or http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.unit.html |
| 15:36.08 | jlp_znc | so there is a man page for it? well, good. how do you find that man page? is it mentioned in the SEE ALSO section of the systemd man page? |
| 15:36.25 | jlp_znc | doesn't have a linux system in front of him right now to go look |
| 15:36.29 | harleypig | fungus: there is nothing related to starting the service as a user in that page |
| 15:36.32 | harleypig | that I can see. |
| 15:36.40 | harleypig | jlp_znc: yes it is |
| 15:37.57 | harleypig | The *global* problem with man pages is that they are written as a tech manual, not a cook book. I have never seen, on any os, a standardized way of doing a 'how do I do this' and the ones I have seen are woefully incomplete. |
| 15:39.28 | fungus | harleypig, by following some see also's you should see `man systemd.exec` for info on User= |
| 15:39.33 | harleypig | However, I found this part of my problem. While the service is run as the user, it's a clean environment. |
| 15:39.48 | harleypig | I skimmed exec ... I'll look again. |
| 15:40.04 | harleypig | oh, hey |
| 15:40.31 | harleypig | But, now that I've found my problem, this wouldn't have resolved it. :D |
| 15:43.13 | fungus | systemd.exec has info for Environment= or EnvironmentFile= |
| 15:43.51 | harleypig | Yeah, that's my new problem. Now systemd is saying everything worked just fine, but my app isn't running. |
| 15:49.12 | frostyfrog | How's the StartFest stuff going? |
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| 17:21.06 | jlp_znc | harleypig: that's what the EXAMPLES section is for :-) |
| 17:23.13 | harleypig | jlp_znc: uh huh |
| 17:23.53 | bregalad | harleypig: https://xkcd.com/1343/ |
| 17:24.48 | harleypig | :] |
| 17:44.08 | jlp_znc | http://splasho.com/upgoer5/ |
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| 18:25.13 | bregalad | ~napoleon |
| 18:25.14 | infobot | Girls only like guys who have great skills: Nun-chuck skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills. |
| 18:56.39 | eightyeight | ~boo |
| 18:56.39 | infobot | for heaven's sake, eightyeight, don't do that! |
| 19:10.33 | bregalad | ~rails infobot |
| 19:10.34 | infobot | infobot refactors to 0.421088459417234 picolines of code with the latest rails magic |
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| 19:40.28 | programmerq | provo in gizmodo: http://gizmodo.com/are-these-the-ugliest-city-flags-on-earth-1728268005 |
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| 20:19.39 | asoc | lol systemd is a hungry hippo |
| 20:19.40 | asoc | https://media.giphy.com/media/5xtDarAgrjoOrBxSVYk/giphy.gif |
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| 21:52.50 | frostyfrog | nom nom nom |
| 21:53.02 | jlp_znc | https://twitter.com/jlp78/status/639193789962125312 <- get $5 off a TrackR (it's a little bluetoothy gizmo that you attach to stuff you like to lose and want to find again) |
| 21:53.49 | frostyfrog | Apparently systemd can manage the network, sockets, services, system logging, bootup, user sessions, and more >_> |
| 21:54.07 | frostyfrog | Not too sure how I feel about that. :/ |
| 21:54.57 | frostyfrog | Seems as if they are trying to make everyone depend on it as much as they depend on linux. |
| 22:01.53 | bregalad | locale |
| 22:02.07 | bregalad | and don't forget systemd-nspanwnd-D |
| 22:02.09 | bregalad | d |
| 22:04.23 | bregalad | I'm fine with systemd taking over lots of things as long as what they're replacing it with are well-designed, modular tools |
| 22:05.58 | bregalad | what concerns me is the passive-aggressive approach: spinning dependency logic to coerce adoption of this growing ecosystem that is not too well decoupled or extrinsic in either thought, methodology, or consideration |
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| 22:08.07 | bregalad | it smacks of the kind of startupy can-do attitude one expects from web developers enamored of the latest favorite framework or language or coding style and their own simplistic worldviews |
| 22:09.22 | levi | Do you have any particular criticisms regarding how it fails to be "well decoupled or extrinsic in either thought, methodology, or consideration"? |
| 22:10.11 | bregalad | nope, I'm just going to hide behind my generalizations |
| 22:10.19 | bregalad | it's so much easier |
| 22:10.48 | jlp_znc | levi: read the bsd forum post I linked earlier today |
| 22:10.57 | levi | systemd is kind of an umbrella project now for a bunch of system pieces that manage various related things. |
| 22:11.09 | jlp_znc | https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/systemd-is-obsolete.49372/ |
| 22:11.28 | jlp_znc | talks about the dependency issue in one of the comments (last one, I think) |
| 22:15.10 | levi | jlp_znc: I sympathize with those arguments, but OpenEmbedded builds a systemd-based cross-compiled embedded distribution from scratch, so clearly the problems he cites are not as terrible as claimed. |
| 22:16.33 | programmerq | as far as I can tell, the anti-systemd crowd just doesn't like the idea of systemd. I can sympathize with that, but I tend to worry about real world effects the longer I've been in this profession. |
| 22:16.44 | programmerq | yeah, systemd takes away the modularity of my low level system stuff. |
| 22:16.53 | programmerq | does this interfere with my end goals? it hasn't so far. |
| 22:17.14 | levi | As an actual embedded systems developer, I *love* systemd. |
| 22:17.52 | joshh | we plan on using systemd to replace supervisord, and after seeing that both ubuntu and debian are using it, as well as most distros, sort of decided to stop fighting it/caring and just roll with it |
| 22:17.57 | programmerq | I also disagree that wrapping multiple things into one binary is a clear violation of the unix separation of concerns. (I don't know enough about systemd to know how true this is for that specific case) |
| 22:18.12 | programmerq | take busybox for example-- it's one binary that does it all! this is still okay because it's made up of smaller pieces |
| 22:18.37 | bregalad | busybox was created for a specific, narrow use case where that made sense |
| 22:19.15 | programmerq | systemd was created for a specific reason too, and its creators would argue it makes sense too. |
| 22:19.17 | joshh | "I find it more troubling that FreeBSD is getting launchd: http://www.slideshare.net/iXsystems/jordan-hubbard-free-bsd-the-next-10-years and that there are people in the FreeBSD camp who believe that FreeBSD should adopt PLists for configuration files. That is so anti-UNIX." |
| 22:19.25 | levi | bregalad: It makes sense a lot more often than you might think. |
| 22:19.25 | joshh | that's actually kinda scary for bsd fans |
| 22:19.57 | bregalad | I guess what really concerns me is so much of the linux ecosystem being gobbled up by a single player |
| 22:20.25 | joshh | its only a matter of time before systemd is only made or broken and is embraced or replaced by something else. worst case it makes linux worse for a few years |
| 22:20.46 | levi | bregalad: That doesn't even make sense. |
| 22:21.10 | joshh | he won't topple linus |
| 22:25.02 | programmerq | yeah, all the distros could pull out of systemd in a few releases similar to how they all bought in to it. |
| 22:25.42 | bregalad | concludes levi is the arbiter of systemd and sense :-) |
| 22:25.53 | joshh | i don't view it as the end of the world, and unix philosophy arguments aside, the technical quality of systemd seems mostly ok |
| 22:26.11 | joshh | though im sure there will be some really frustrating bugs at some point |
| 22:26.49 | levi | The technical quality of systemd is, overall, really good. Especially when compared to a pile of shell scripts with distro-specific dependencies. |
| 22:27.23 | programmerq | yeah, I'm very glad to be done with all those effing shell scripts for the most part. |
| 22:27.24 | joshh | ya, nobody defends the status quo |
| 22:27.25 | bregalad | what about when you compare it to the pile of other things it purports to replace? |
| 22:28.09 | levi | bregalad: Still overall pretty good. |
| 22:28.24 | Tod-Work | can it replace X too? |
| 22:28.34 | Tod-Work | kids |
| 22:28.46 | joshh | basically people were against systemd but without any other idea to replace it with, it won by default, over the status quo, and is here now |
| 22:28.49 | bregalad | Tod-Work: yes, the replacement is Xctl |
| 22:28.58 | joshh | until if and when something else better gets traction |
| 22:29.00 | Tod-Work | We'll never get nice desktop layers for linux =c( |
| 22:29.02 | levi | Basically a small vocal minority was against systemd. |
| 22:29.22 | levi | People who actually built distros were clearly for it. |
| 22:29.26 | bregalad | I would say it was more of a visual minority |
| 22:29.37 | Tod-Work | well, we don't actually speak, no |
| 22:29.45 | Tod-Work | [typing intensifies] |
| 22:29.53 | joshh | there are also a lot of people against it who are really just ignorant about it and don't like it because "i heard it's not unix-like" and stuff, who could eventually be swayed in favor |
| 22:30.13 | joshh | but either way, its just not in my top 500 problems |
| 22:30.35 | levi | The vast majority of people who use Linux will barely notice the difference. |
| 22:31.14 | joshh | ya, desktop users who use ubuntu because it's easiest and stuff certainly won't |
| 22:31.19 | unum | I just need to watch the video from openwest so I can move my custom init scripts to it |
| 22:31.27 | joshh | unless it ends up improving thigns |
| 22:31.43 | levi | Tod-Work: Gnome 3 + Wayland is working fairly well these days. |
| 22:32.02 | Tod-Work | is never going to agree that Gnome 3 works well in any measurement |
| 22:32.44 | joshh | does anyone currently run linux on a retina mbp with good results? i might be installing linux on it soon |
| 22:33.15 | levi | The relevant bit for you, then, would be that the underlying toolkits are working well and someone could potentially create a desktop environment that meets your needs based on them now. |
| 22:33.47 | joshh | but i care about things like the resolution, graphics card switching, wifi of course, sleep/suspend/resume, trackpad, thunderbolt, etc all work well |
| 22:34.25 | Tod-Work | joshh, Stock ubuntu seems to work on my coworkers' MBP, but multi-monitor support and detection is still hit or miss |
| 22:34.44 | levi | joshh: I haven't tried myself, but Gnome 3 at least has GUI scaling stuff built-in now for retina displays. Probably the latest KDE does too. |
| 22:35.48 | joshh | i use a thunderbolt monitor and laptop display at work, and kb/mouse usb via the thunderbolt monitor |
| 22:35.52 | joshh | so that working would be nice |
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| 22:36.16 | Tod-Work | I don't know about the thunderbolt stuff, but it should be ok |
| 22:37.29 | joshh | alright, so far i have optimism since your coworker's seems to work |
| 22:37.57 | programmerq | I have a rmbp, but I haven't tried putting linux directly on it. |
| 22:38.10 | jlp_znc | joshh: I have a similar setup. OS X is working well enough at the moment that I don't have a big desire to change. |
| 22:38.27 | jlp_znc | I did just have to reboot my monitor, though (that sounds weird) because the USB ports quit working. |
| 22:38.38 | levi | Thunderbolt should look pretty much like a PCI-E bridge to Linux, I think. |
| 22:38.42 | joshh | i don't desire to change, but our IT guys soon want to require casper for macs to connect to the vpn, and i don't want that stuff |
| 22:38.47 | joshh | of course linux is exempt |
| 22:38.55 | jlp_znc | of course |
| 22:39.11 | programmerq | joshh: just run linux in a VM and then set up your routes appropriately. |
| 22:39.18 | Tod-Work | what's wrong with casper? |
| 22:39.29 | levi | A friendly ghost? C'mon. |
| 22:39.30 | jlp_znc | I do like the mac hardware, though. one thing, in particular, makes my life much easier. |
| 22:39.38 | jlp_znc | the mag-safe power connector! |
| 22:39.42 | joshh | i have lots of linux vm's already, but only headless that i ssh to. don't really want a vm main desktop |
| 22:40.00 | programmerq | you wouldn't need to do your gui stuff in the vm |
| 22:40.00 | jlp_znc | with four dogs at home, it is a necessity. |
| 22:40.07 | programmerq | just run the VPN and turn on NAT to the host |
| 22:40.08 | levi | I am trying to get a departed coworker's MBP, but apparently no one has time to get stuff off it and reprovision it. :P |
| 22:40.25 | levi | So I am stuck with a thinkpad with a crappy tiny screen. |
| 22:40.29 | joshh | a lot of people who didn't bother removing casper a long time ago complain about it all the time, slows things down, and plus IT guys can force a security update reboot at odd times and stuff, just seems like something to avoid if there's a loophole |
| 22:40.59 | joshh | plus it's basically spyware etc |
| 22:41.26 | joshh | although their official policy is they do not do any snooping type stuff, that could always change with a new exec or whatever |
| 22:41.47 | programmerq | when I was at HP, in order to use my HP email on an android device, I had to have some weird spyware installed and submit to the exchange administrator policy. |
| 22:41.52 | programmerq | so I carried two phones |
| 22:41.58 | Tod-Work | I thought it was just a VPN client, it seems to be a lot more |
| 22:42.02 | Tod-Work | well screw that |
| 22:42.04 | joshh | so i filled out their form and just said i use linux, but i might need to really do so depending on how they implement the vpn thing |
| 22:42.22 | Tod-Work | will not work for a company that has such a sweeping control of a dev machine |
| 22:42.39 | Tod-Work | I'm with programmerq though, just use a VM |
| 22:42.39 | joshh | it's because we got a new CSO who cares about "proper endpoint security" |
| 22:43.01 | joshh | they aren't generally control freaks or bad people |
| 22:43.09 | bregalad | systemd will make it all better! |
| 22:43.11 | joshh | they mainly use it to enforce filevault and timely updates |
| 22:43.11 | bregalad | trolls |
| 22:43.15 | joshh | which i already have |
| 22:43.16 | Tod-Work | relevant: https://vimeo.com/135347162 |
| 22:44.53 | joshh | i think their fear is a stolen laptop without filevault and unlocked could potentially be used to connect to the company stuff |
| 22:45.10 | joshh | so their fix as those sorts of people is to mandate an installed thing to enforce it, because what else could they think of |
| 22:45.24 | jlp_znc | programmerq: xposed framework, rootcloak, and Exchange Bypass. |
| 22:45.56 | joshh | ya, you can get around that with a rooted android phone |
| 22:46.18 | joshh | but it's fairly benign stuff imo |
| 22:47.16 | jlp_znc | we had some heinous thing at linkedin that "managed" your phone, too. I don't remember what it was called. it would bitch at you if your phone was rooted, but rootcloak worked just fine. |
| 22:48.01 | joshh | heh |
| 22:50.00 | jlp_znc | they were in the process of moving to google apps for domains when I left. I suspect that resolved a lot of the issues people had. |
| 22:50.17 | jlp_znc | I mainly cared about having my calendar make it to my phone. |
| 22:50.36 | joshh | i really do like google for work |
| 22:54.02 | bregalad | it is truly awesome how much private and proprietary info feeds into the googleplex |
| 22:55.29 | romanovic | yes. the private info black hole is scary |
| 22:56.09 | joshh | it makes the nsa datacenter look like a wiring closet |
| 22:56.16 | romanovic | i look forward to a day when proprietary info is no longer a thing though |
| 22:58.28 | romanovic | probably not this decade or next. but I have high hopes the next generation or two will realise how ridiculous the notion of owning bits of information was, since they are not a product but companies still treat them that way. |
| 22:59.21 | bregalad | romanovic: or owning ideas for that matter |
| 23:00.20 | romanovic | a lot of the lockdown where I work is in place for the sole purpose of keeping IP internal |
| 23:01.32 | joshh | ugh that's gotta be bad |
| 23:03.48 | programmerq | joshh: since the company was happy buying me a phone, I was happy to just do all that crap and leave it as a work-only phone. |
| 23:04.21 | programmerq | now that I have the asus zenfone 2, I'd probably try to do all that stuff and take advantage of the dual sim capabilty on the phone. |
| 23:29.17 | *** join/#utah trent_ (~tcameron@192.34.60.42) |
| 23:31.30 | *** part/#utah Nemus (~Nemus@unaffiliated/nemus) |
