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| 03:52.40 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds |
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| 21:09.34 | keldwud | <curse words> |
| 21:09.50 | keldwud | this time it is the provo library trying to tell my daughter she can't come alone |
| 21:10.34 | keldwud | well we're gonna do it anyway, they can't stop us. and if they start calling the cops on my daughter, that would make a great news item and be great publicity for them. Turning children away from the public library. |
| 21:11.08 | keldwud | my daughter should have the freedom to navigate her neighborhood and city without being arbitrarily restricted by people's irrational fears. |
| 21:11.23 | keldwud | people's irrational fears should *not* affect our freedoms |
| 21:11.34 | keldwud | we are autonomous people and have the right to use this city just like any other citizen |
| 21:11.46 | keldwud | nobody has the right to take away that freedom from us because we aren't even breaking the law |
| 21:11.51 | keldwud | I am so freakin livid right now |
| 21:26.14 | keldwud | but they do have a rule :( |
| 21:26.19 | keldwud | http://www.provolibrary.com/policy-unattended-children |
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| 22:58.02 | ezakimak | well, their age cutoff is 9, which is arguably not too unreasonable |
| 22:58.10 | keldwud | yeah |
| 22:58.16 | keldwud | I get where they are coming from |
| 22:58.23 | ezakimak | although I'm pretty sure I used to ride my bicycle to the library alone before I was 9 |
| 22:58.26 | keldwud | people leaving their rowdy kids there tearin up the place |
| 22:58.39 | keldwud | it was just a few bad parents with shitty kids that got that rule instituted I'm sure |
| 22:58.42 | ezakimak | but kids that *choose* to go to the library are not likely to be the rowdy kind |
| 22:58.46 | keldwud | ^ |
| 22:58.47 | keldwud | exactly |
| 22:58.57 | keldwud | I'm a bit less emotional about it now |
| 22:59.14 | keldwud | I've cooled off a bit, but I do want to try and make a case with the library so they understand she isn't going to be causing problems |
| 22:59.25 | ezakimak | we went to the library at least 2 saturdays every month, my mom being an avid reader, we loved it. |
| 22:59.51 | ezakimak | we always each had our own stack of books |
| 22:59.55 | keldwud | yeah, I want my daughter to have the freedom to go there whenever she wants |
| 23:00.12 | keldwud | I even told her that was the "safe place" and if anything bad ever happens to go there |
| 23:00.26 | keldwud | or if she doesn't feel safe and she doesn't know where I'm at, to go there |
| 23:00.27 | ezakimak | maybe they could institude an "avid reader program"--kids sign up, and no matter age they are allowed to be there alone |
| 23:00.35 | ezakimak | that's a good idea too |
| 23:00.43 | keldwud | ezakimak, oh hey, that is a good idea |
| 23:00.52 | keldwud | I'll maybe ask them about that. and we could sign waivers |
| 23:01.01 | keldwud | so they don't have to worry we will sue them |
| 23:01.13 | ezakimak | they could have the parent info on file just in case, so they are no longer just anonymous child citizens |
| 23:01.27 | keldwud | dude, that's an awesome idea! |
| 23:01.32 | keldwud | thank you for sharing it |
| 23:01.46 | keldwud | much more constructive than what I wanted to do. I just wanted to fight the man |
| 23:01.51 | keldwud | and buck the system |
| 23:01.55 | ezakimak | of course, just having a library card could do that |
| 23:02.00 | keldwud | I'm still a teenager at heart |
| 23:02.09 | ezakimak | for minors it could have parent contact info |
| 23:02.35 | ezakimak | kids love having an id card--makes them feel grown up. |
| 23:02.52 | keldwud | well, we can't let kids feel TOO grown up |
| 23:03.00 | keldwud | that's what I've been running into all year this year |
| 23:03.17 | keldwud | people going out of their way to make sure my kid doesn't act too grown up |
| 23:03.21 | ezakimak | you could probably even get local merchants to sponsor a reader program by giving discounts with the card, ice cream, treats etc. |
| 23:03.40 | ezakimak | pizza hut has done similar for years |
| 23:03.41 | keldwud | ezakimak, but how many people would really want to do an "avid reader" program? |
| 23:03.53 | ezakimak | i know lots of kids that read for free pizza at pizza hut |
| 23:03.54 | keldwud | people out here don't let children out of their sight until they are 12 |
| 23:03.58 | ezakimak | tons of schools participate |
| 23:04.07 | keldwud | ezakimak, by themselves? |
| 23:04.12 | ezakimak | but in the summer there may not be anything |
| 23:04.16 | keldwud | I'm trying to teach my daughter independence and stuff |
| 23:04.29 | keldwud | but I live in a culture where independence is frowned upon |
| 23:04.34 | ezakimak | yeah, it's a problem. |
| 23:04.48 | ezakimak | i walked home, a mile, alone from kindergarten on up. |
| 23:04.58 | ezakimak | these days parents get jailed for that. it's crazy. |
| 23:05.38 | ezakimak | and we'd go to the park or the school w/o parents all the time |
| 23:05.55 | ezakimak | they made sure the knew where we were going, but didn't need to be with us |
| 23:06.07 | ezakimak | and that was everyone, all of my friends |
| 23:06.46 | ezakimak | hell, at age 6 my mom would send me 2 miles on my bike to buy milk from the store. |
| 23:07.11 | ezakimak | giving responsibility teaches responsibliity |
| 23:07.21 | ezakimak | removing it, and you get none in return. such a simple concept |
| 23:10.14 | joshh | and our parents or grandparents could take their rifles to school, and it was no problem at all |
| 23:10.28 | joshh | the world changes fast |
| 23:11.26 | keldwud | sorry I'm always in here bitchin about my kid's troubles |
| 23:11.40 | keldwud | I mean, I do bring it on myself. I know where I live |
| 23:11.44 | keldwud | I know how people are going to react |
| 23:11.47 | keldwud | but I refuse to conform |
| 23:11.50 | ezakimak | yep. i have a friend that kept his gun in his truck at school, cause after they'd all go hunting or shooting |
| 23:11.54 | keldwud | especially when it comes to raising my kid |
| 23:12.34 | ezakimak | there's a good nytimes (i think?) article a few years back about a mom that came up with a "coming of age" activity list for her 13 yro son |
| 23:12.52 | ezakimak | i think it spawned a whole website for ideas somewhere |
| 23:13.46 | ezakimak | and i took a knife to school every day growing up--my trusty swiss army knife. i used it to eat my lunch with, always handy to have a knife |
| 23:14.04 | ezakimak | and some class project--was handy for art, science, etc. |
| 23:14.23 | ezakimak | now days, scissors w/rubber padding, and non-toxic barely-sticks glue |
| 23:14.32 | joshh | and we could ride in the back up pickup trucks on city streets |
| 23:14.59 | ezakimak | i remember when they made the rule that you had to be at least 16 to ride in the back of a pickup |
| 23:15.08 | ezakimak | then they simply took it away entirely. |
| 23:16.18 | ezakimak | looks like some states still allow it |
| 23:16.33 | keldwud | ezakimak, that was the free range lady |
| 23:16.34 | keldwud | wasn't it |
| 23:16.47 | ezakimak | i grew up in california |
| 23:17.10 | keldwud | I read it a long time ago, if it's the one I'm thinking of. then she wrote a book. now there *are* some issues with her philosophy. she hasn't studied childhood development or consulted with professionals, afaik |
| 23:17.20 | keldwud | but I agree with her sentiment |
| 23:17.40 | ezakimak | watch any movie from the 40s-70s, and kids are portrayed as pretty much free roaming |
| 23:18.00 | ezakimak | and now those kids are the parents complaining and causing problems |
| 23:18.26 | ezakimak | padded playground equipment is what gets me irked. |
| 23:18.41 | ezakimak | i'd rather risk getting burned on a fun, fast, metal slide then zapped on a lame, slow plastic one any day. |
| 23:18.54 | ezakimak | just part of growing up. |
| 23:19.14 | ezakimak | any kid that never got hurt simply didn't play hard enough. |
| 23:20.31 | ezakimak | kids learn ingenuity also. we'd pack water to pour on the slides to cool them off |
| 23:21.34 | keldwud | I read a great article on some playgrounds they have in england I think it is |
| 23:21.47 | keldwud | just wild life with a pond and weeds and trees and dirt and tires |
| 23:21.53 | keldwud | and rusty nails and shit |
| 23:22.06 | ezakimak | lol. kids don't care. they have imagination, and can find fun anywhere |
| 23:22.09 | keldwud | and there are supervisors at the park to make sure the kids get help if someone gets hurt |
| 23:22.13 | keldwud | but they don't intervene |
| 23:22.17 | keldwud | they stay out of the picture |
| 23:22.22 | ezakimak | sounds perfect |
| 23:22.29 | keldwud | they just have a quarter acre lot with nature |
| 23:22.33 | keldwud | and donated materials like pallets |
| 23:22.37 | keldwud | the older kids even make fires |
| 23:22.42 | ezakimak | excellent. |
| 23:22.43 | keldwud | let me see if I can find the article |
| 23:22.54 | ezakimak | bet there's frogs and other fun critters |
| 23:23.07 | keldwud | yup |
| 23:23.15 | keldwud | and there is a movement to get them implemented all over |
| 23:23.23 | keldwud | and some districts have been giving public funds for it |
| 23:23.30 | keldwud | I hope I can find it |
| 23:23.42 | ezakimak | i grew up by a river, we'd go down there unsupervised all the time (a real river, not a utah "river" that's only 5 ft wide) |
| 23:24.11 | ezakimak | tons of critters, wildlife, fish |
| 23:24.16 | ezakimak | and swimming |
| 23:24.25 | keldwud | here is an article that talks about how kids need to experience risk |
| 23:24.25 | keldwud | http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/28/spontaneous-order-on-the-free-range-play |
| 23:24.32 | keldwud | and how the playground is the place to do it |
| 23:24.36 | keldwud | but not what I was looking for |
| 23:24.44 | keldwud | yeah,, this place had a pond that you could drown in |
| 23:26.13 | ezakimak | ban tag?? when, where?? |
| 23:27.58 | ezakimak | wow. |
| 23:28.14 | ezakimak | back in 2013. wonder if they've lifted it since |
| 23:28.28 | keldwud | wait, what? |
| 23:28.53 | ezakimak | the "tag" link in that article is to another about some place in NY that banned ball use during recess |
| 23:29.19 | ezakimak | and called tag and cartwheels "rough games" requiring supervision |
| 23:29.42 | ezakimak | tag was the go-to game for half my grammar school year recesses |
| 23:30.26 | keldwud | oh wow |
| 23:30.39 | ezakimak | yah, we got hurt. one kid even broke a leg |
| 23:31.25 | ezakimak | but that's just being kids |
| 23:31.37 | ezakimak | preaching to the choir here though. |
| 23:31.53 | keldwud | yeah |
| 23:32.03 | keldwud | man I wish I could ifnd that article |
| 23:32.08 | keldwud | it was the coolest playground ever! |
| 23:37.45 | ezakimak | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2182280/A-modern-rite-passage-How-mother-set-13-year-old-son-13-ticklish-tasks-grown-was.html |
| 23:39.28 | keldwud | ticklish tasks wut? |
| 23:39.56 | ezakimak | .uk should give you a clue |