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| 04:25.36 | TodPunk | LDUG Wednesday. Apparently we're growing: http://www.meetup.com/Lehi-Developers-User-Group/events/222875308/ |
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| 19:10.41 | jima | eightyeight: it's weird when you're reading retweets from someone you know, and then you realize they're being retweeted by a completely different social circle. |
| 19:11.48 | eightyeight | What did you read? |
| 19:12.07 | jima | eightyeight: whfsdude keeps RT'ing you, i know him from #ipv6 |
| 19:12.16 | eightyeight | Ah. Heh. |
| 19:12.27 | eightyeight | I was on an XMPP rant last night |
| 19:12.36 | jima | i miss xmpp being a thing. |
| 19:12.45 | eightyeight | Indeed |
| 19:20.08 | Tod-Work | I miss XMPP being an option, but wish it had been replaced by something better |
| 19:20.30 | jima | as opposed to being replaced by worse things, all around? |
| 19:24.11 | bregalad | ugh |
| 19:24.17 | bregalad | that's for sure |
| 19:27.20 | shalkie | But how on earth would you be able to place pirate hats and beards on people inside of a video chat?! |
| 19:27.46 | bregalad | sounds like a killer feature |
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| 19:28.00 | Tod-Work | I honestly don't think it matter too much to most users. XMPP just gives us better options as devs for interop stuff |
| 19:28.41 | shalkie | http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_browser/2012/07/google_effects_the_wildly_popular_new_tool_that_lets_video_chatters_wear_virtual_monocles_tiaras_and_puppy_faces_.html |
| 19:28.42 | Tod-Work | being able to integrate my phone services with google talk or skype or any other number of things would be nice as an option |
| 19:28.48 | bregalad | it makes the difference between a corporate totalitarian internet vs a democratized peer to peer internet |
| 19:29.13 | Tod-Work | no, dude, you're not forced to use google chat |
| 19:29.31 | bregalad | if everyone else is using it, I effectively am |
| 19:29.38 | Tod-Work | if it's "democracy" or some other bullshit ideology you want, just do your own service |
| 19:30.10 | Tod-Work | that still is your choice. Either this is measurable or you just don't like it. The latter is a personal issue and has nothing to do with corporations or totalitarianism or anything else |
| 19:30.12 | bregalad | even if I reverse engineered it somehow, I'm still contacting people from within the google garden |
| 19:30.46 | Tod-Work | if anything, it's MORE democratic because people just voted by using the service, and what you're whining about is that it wasn't the guy YOU voted for |
| 19:31.08 | Tod-Work | using patriotic terminology to butter that up doesn't change what it is |
| 19:32.03 | Tod-Work | (For examples of this awesomeness at work, see: Mumble) |
| 19:32.42 | Tod-Work | Looking at it now, I'd probably have to revive some dev work on mod_xmpp for FreeSwitch integration |
| 19:32.43 | bregalad | sorry for getting you all worked up :) |
| 19:33.25 | jima | bregalad: it's ok, i drank the xmpp flavor-aid 5+ years ago. |
| 19:34.03 | Tod-Work | pfft, if that's "worked up" I think today is a really good day, but I must be getting old or something |
| 19:34.35 | jima | "get off my lan!" |
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| 19:48.59 | Tod-Work | once more with feeling, LDUG tomorrow, with our own levi speaking part of it: http://www.meetup.com/Lehi-Developers-User-Group/events/222875308/ |
| 19:51.44 | levi | bregalad: Part of having a democratized peer-to-peer internet as we do means that people are fully empowered to build commercial and closed services on it, and other people are welcome to *use* those services according to the terms of the service provider. |
| 19:52.08 | levi | If it were not so, it wouldn't really be a democratized peer-to-peer internet, would it? |
| 19:53.59 | jima | i'm disappointed by google's decision to take their chat infrastructure closed-source, but i don't challenge that they have every right to do so. |
| 19:55.13 | levi | You can complain all you like about people choosing Google-provided services over alternatives, or about Google changing protocols for its services, or about Google deciding not to allow chat federation with third parties. But they operate on a free internet. |
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| 19:55.32 | bregalad | levi: I'm sorry if you don't like my argument, what I was trying to say is that I wish people would make choices that would keep the internet democratized and open even for higher level services like video chat, there is no technical reason those communications have to be routed through google |
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| 19:56.42 | levi | bregalad: Using Google doesn't make the internet any less democratized or open. Google's services may be less open, but Google and their users are not the internet. |
| 19:57.00 | bregalad | but now they are, and now I have to choose between (more relative) privacy or communicating with other people |
| 19:57.17 | levi | Alas, you must make difficult choices! |
| 19:57.27 | levi | Such is life in a land of freedom. |
| 19:58.24 | Tod-Work | darn adulthood |
| 19:59.00 | jima | speak for yourself |
| 19:59.01 | Tod-Work | if I were a sane individual concerned about video chat options via my browser, I'd probably just setup a freeswitch box with WebRTC video support and be done with it |
| 19:59.03 | Tod-Work | oh wait |
| 19:59.08 | Tod-Work | that's easy and I did |
| 19:59.24 | Tod-Work | (and then threw it away because I don't want to video chat in reality) |
| 20:00.19 | Tod-Work | I haven't gone so far as eightyeight and invented my own card-based encryption implementations, but that's pretty cool |
| 20:06.32 | levi | BTW, if you love XMPP, Cisco's enterprise messaging junk is all XMPP based. :P |
| 20:09.30 | levi | But XMPP is actually kind of a crappy protocol, and it loses terribly when you want to make a mobile client, so it's not surprising that Google and Facebook and the like moved away from it. |
| 20:11.23 | Tod-Work | That's explicitly WHY they moved away from it |
| 20:11.40 | Tod-Work | it's not like people have been hush hush about this stuff |
| 20:13.13 | Tod-Work | technically you cn still do the chat portion of hangouts via xmpp I guess |
| 20:13.45 | levi | And open federation of chat services is not all it's cracked up to be either. Do you think Freenode just lets any server on as a peer on its network? |
| 20:15.11 | Tod-Work | this is actually an interesting case study in open source, too. Like, the reason pidgin exists isn't because not using those networks' clients would be more "free" or whatever, it turns out it's just because it's convenient to be connected to them all at once, and there wasn't a good client for linux to do that. The reason there's no hangouts client from open source that's widely used is because there's no point, the no |
| 20:15.12 | Tod-Work | rmal linux client is fine if you want to be on their network. |
| 20:16.38 | Tod-Work | for all we (as a society) talk about freedom and privacy, in our actions we rarely give even the slightest of cares about either. Some of us individually do, but that really just becomes a non-participation policy, which is its own debate |
| 20:17.35 | levi | Yeah. We'll pay lip service to the ideals when someone riles us up, but in general we go for convenience almost every time. |
| 20:18.59 | jima | and anyone who doesn't is branded as a member of the fringe. |
| 20:19.08 | Tod-Work | wouldn't mind throwing Phone Janitor money at an open single-identity system that protected privacy and decentralized everything but still enabled everything to be tied to one account so you'd have a history for that identity's activity on your service or something. Like email, but for logins, instead of Oauth2, which is just using GroupX's logins somewhere |
| 20:19.23 | Tod-Work | jima, by definition, they ARE a member of the fringe |
| 20:19.32 | levi | XMPP also scales even worse than IRC does. Check this out regarding the composition of Jabber traffic on a popular server in 2006: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2006-May/011158.html |
| 20:20.05 | Tod-Work | levi, that reminds me of how the news service propagates (or more specifically how it does not) |
| 20:22.12 | Tod-Work | internet-wide multicast would be a nice thing to have if it worked well |
| 20:28.11 | Tod-Work | levi, you ever done anything with a lowpower mesh? |
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| 21:36.50 | levi | Tod-Work: Like a Bluetooth Smart mesh? |
| 21:37.11 | levi | I think we've got a CSR Mesh kit, though I haven't played with it myself. |
| 21:37.40 | levi | A couple of my coworkers attend Bluetooth SIG calls related to BT mesh and other things like that. |
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| 22:43.26 | Tod-Work | levi, like anything. Specifically I've been looking at zigbee and the ilk, but I'm just thinking about it from a home automation perspective |
| 22:43.34 | Tod-Work | or other gadgetry i suppose |
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| 22:45.29 | Tod-Work | Everything I've found is like $10 or more just for the communications chip bits |
| 22:45.42 | Tod-Work | I'd think that could be more like $4 |
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| 22:54.40 | RyanE | volume, Tod-Work, volume. |
| 22:55.11 | Tod-Work | pfft, if I was purchasing at volume I'd be looking at something in the cents range |
| 22:55.34 | RyanE | no, volume compared to WiFi chipsets sold or Bluetooth. |
| 22:55.44 | Tod-Work | Ah, that |
| 22:55.59 | Tod-Work | I'd do bluetooth if it didn't suck? |
| 22:56.00 | RyanE | ZigBee is also pretty narrowly sourced. |
| 22:56.05 | Tod-Work | it is |
| 22:56.17 | Tod-Work | there are other just generic radios though |
| 22:56.31 | Tod-Work | XBee does a Zigbee and an "other" version, for instance |
| 22:56.56 | RyanE | 802.15.4 RF. |
| 22:57.01 | Tod-Work | and Wifi |
| 22:57.31 | RyanE | 802.11 |
| 22:57.50 | RyanE | both 2.4GHz, but everything else is different. :) |
| 22:58.11 | Tod-Work | aye |
| 22:59.09 | Tod-Work | I wouldn't mind doing my own protocol over normal Tx/Rx abstractions in the wireless whatever-it-is, but I think 2.4 is going to interfere with a lot of things in my house |
| 22:59.15 | Tod-Work | and 900 isn't going to go very far |
| 22:59.33 | RyanE | Some of the 802.15.4 channels ZigBee uses are just outside WiFi spectrum. |
| 22:59.40 | RyanE | Z-Wave is also 802.15.4 radios. |
| 22:59.50 | Tod-Work | How do they play with microwaves? |
| 23:00.00 | Tod-Work | like the appliance, not the scientific phenomenon |
| 23:00.05 | RyanE | well, unless you microwave stuff with the door open, it should be OK. :) |
| 23:00.44 | Tod-Work | no, man, WiFi isn't always ok with that, I can't imagine a tiny device mesh is going to fare better |
| 23:01.08 | Tod-Work | I get that it's because of imperfect shielding, mind |
| 23:01.18 | eightyeight | Tod-Work: heh. have you tried the card cipher(s)? |
| 23:01.25 | RyanE | Never seen a problem with it, and Control4 has shipped over 2M ZigBee devices. |
| 23:01.39 | RyanE | mesh and retransmit pretty much handle it. |
| 23:01.45 | eightyeight | (replying from an earlier highlight) |
| 23:01.58 | Tod-Work | eightyeight, I read one of your earliest blog posts about the other guy's blog post about it and that's about it. I have no used for it, and literally 0 people that would learn it for any reason, use or not. |
| 23:02.11 | RyanE | since ZigBee isn't a high bandwidth protocol, it doesn't bug it as much as WiFi. |
| 23:02.22 | eightyeight | yup. that's about right. :-) |
| 23:02.36 | eightyeight | regardless, /r/cardciphers |
| 23:02.39 | eightyeight | :-) |
| 23:03.00 | Tod-Work | RyanE, I would hope that would be the case, but then again, I would expect bluetooth to be more stable than it is, too |
| 23:04.02 | eightyeight | hand/field/pencil/paper ciphers are intriguing to me. silly hobby, but meh |
| 23:05.04 | eightyeight | did you know there is a National Cipher contest in the UK? You have to be 18 or less, and a student of some Brit school, but solving the old challenges is fun |
| 23:05.09 | eightyeight | shrug |
| 23:05.10 | Tod-Work | won't be silly in the zombie apocalypse!!! |
| 23:05.36 | eightyeight | Playing cards and bullets will be the new currency |
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