| 18:53.40 | *** join/#utah infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 18:53.40 | *** topic/#utah is Utah related discussion including user groups | logs @ http://ibot.rikers.org/%23utah/ | See also ##lds | OpenWest Conference May 7-9, 2015! http://www.openwest.org/ |
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| 19:17.13 | bregalad | eightyeight: do you know if there is a way to query a linux about whether a module, either as a module or compiled in is present? |
| 19:17.23 | bregalad | modinfo doesn't seem to work on modules that are compiled in |
| 19:18.16 | eightyeight | if it's compiled in, then it isn't a module |
| 19:18.16 | bregalad | hm, there is /sys/modules/<module> |
| 19:18.23 | blunaxela | if /proc/config.gz exists then you can search the config for your module |
| 19:18.25 | eightyeight | unless i'm not understand what you're asking |
| 19:18.26 | bregalad | yeah, whatever |
| 19:18.52 | eightyeight | so you won't find it in /sys/modules/ or /lib/modules/ |
| 19:19.00 | Tod-Work | bregalad, /proc/config.gz? |
| 19:19.00 | bregalad | what I'm asking is I need to find out if the module functionality is available even if it's compiled in or not |
| 19:19.13 | Tod-Work | oh, you just said that |
| 19:19.20 | Tod-Work | or blunaxela did |
| 19:19.25 | blunaxela | config.gz is the config file that was used to compile your kernel |
| 19:19.25 | Tod-Work | all these b-names |
| 19:19.45 | blunaxela | it lists the built-in modules as well as the various options used in your kernel |
| 19:19.50 | bregalad | eightyeight: why won't I find it in /sys/modules or /lib/modules? |
| 19:19.55 | Tod-Work | but you'll need to check the config for a "=y" or an entry in lsmod/modprobe |
| 19:20.03 | eightyeight | because if it's compiled in, it's not a module |
| 19:20.17 | bregalad | eightyeight: I've already found a counterexample |
| 19:20.17 | eightyeight | modules are compiled separately from the kernel source |
| 19:20.29 | Tod-Work | and loaded at runtime |
| 19:21.05 | blunaxela | also, some distros disable /proc/config.gz, but you should be able to find it under /boot/config-`uname -r` |
| 19:21.45 | blunaxela | it would be nice if there was a command or /proc file that nicely listed built-in drivers |
| 19:22.15 | bregalad | I have a module that is not a module, called ahci, that is compiled into the kernel, yet /sys/modules/ahci exists |
| 19:23.15 | Tod-Work | blunaxela, assuming you can access /boot and it's mounted |
| 19:23.48 | Tod-Work | bregalad, if you lsmod is it loaded? |
| 19:24.55 | bregalad | Tod-Work: not there, besides I can confirm that it is compiled in from the kernel config |
| 19:25.15 | bregalad | I guess this could be a nonstandard situation |
| 19:25.56 | Tod-Work | bregalad, I'm guessing you have the module compiled but it will never be loaded because it's already there |
| 19:26.26 | Tod-Work | you can compile modules all day long, really |
| 19:26.36 | bregalad | Tod-Work: I don't understand |
| 19:27.02 | bregalad | there is no ahci.ko in /lib/modules/ |
| 19:27.30 | blunaxela | Tod-Work, that's true, i was just listing locations it might be found at |
| 19:27.42 | Tod-Work | *shrug* it could be anywhere |
| 19:28.31 | bregalad | I compiled this kernel myself |
| 19:29.00 | blunaxela | oh, there's a modules.builtin under /lib/modules/<version>/ for me |
| 19:29.09 | Tod-Work | bregalad, on my machine it's not a module, but I have acard-ahci.ko files, and a /sys/module/ahci/ directory |
| 19:29.16 | bregalad | hm |
| 19:29.33 | Tod-Work | linux standards, ladies and gentlemen |
| 19:29.53 | blunaxela | :P |
| 19:30.53 | bregalad | I have so far had trouble finding info on /sys/module but as long as it contains directories for configs that can be modules, I think that might be enough for my situation |
| 19:31.44 | bregalad | Tod-Work: I am unsure what you mean by 'linux standards', do you know of some documentation on /sys/module? |
| 19:32.10 | Tod-Work | My tongue-in-cheek point was that there aren't really any, just conventions |
| 19:32.20 | bregalad | oh, well then |
| 19:32.22 | bregalad | :) |
| 19:32.44 | bregalad | choose your favorite standard :) |
| 19:33.14 | Tod-Work | and fight about it on internet forums! |
| 19:42.34 | eightyeight | http://www.unixmen.com/dnf-is-the-new-default-package-manager-of-fedora-22/ |
| 19:43.30 | asoc | Package managers must be the cool new thing to change. |
| 19:43.37 | bregalad | do not flatulate |
| 19:44.03 | eightyeight | i always found it funny that an "enterprise" company used some 3rd-party forks package manager to install their software |
| 19:44.30 | bregalad | it's a bazaar, man |
| 19:45.01 | bregalad | yellowdog updater: yellowdog always makes me think of dogs and yellow snow |
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| 19:45.14 | bregalad | something I find mildly repugnant |
| 19:47.58 | unum | the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from :) |
| 19:49.14 | eightyeight | of course, first it's changing your init daemon twice. then the tty location of X. now your package manager. |
| 19:49.30 | eightyeight | RHEL training clients must be so excited to update all their courseware. yet again. |
| 19:51.15 | bregalad | I'm sure there are more changes coming |
| 19:51.48 | bregalad | my guess is the next big drama is going to be xorg -> wayland |
| 19:52.03 | eightyeight | i'll believe it when i see it |
| 19:52.15 | eightyeight | wayland has been forth-coming for what? 8 years now? |
| 19:52.25 | bregalad | just get pottering involved and it'll happen :) |
| 19:52.33 | eightyeight | that's almost as bad as btrfs |
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| 21:03.31 | jalbretsen | wow, two different recruiter voicemails within a half hour. Someone must have posted something. |
| 21:11.53 | goozbach | stupid cough |
| 21:12.12 | fozzmoo | coughs...stupidly |
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| 21:23.51 | neybar_work | fozzmoo++ |
| 21:24.02 | bregalad | stupidly coughing |
| 21:49.56 | jlp_znc | ZFS vs. btrfs... ready... FIGHT! |
| 21:50.01 | jlp_znc | https://rudd-o.com/linux-and-free-software/ways-in-which-zfs-is-better-than-btrfs |
| 21:50.47 | jlp_znc | http://drdabbles.us/journal/2014/2/15/my-case-for-btrfs-over-zfs.html |
| 21:50.51 | eightyeight | ZFS |
| 21:51.11 | eightyeight | https://pthree.org/2012/04/17/install-zfs-on-debian-gnulinux/ |
| 21:53.37 | eightyeight | https://lwn.net/Articles/627232/ |
| 21:54.12 | Jayce^ | jlp_znc has a btrfs fan one door over from him.. |
| 21:54.59 | jlp_znc | personally, I prefer ZFS |
| 21:55.10 | eightyeight | ZFS has been stable since 2005. btrfs, not so much |
| 21:55.52 | Tod-Work | ~karma eightyeight |
| 21:55.52 | infobot | eightyeight has karma of 5 |
| 21:55.57 | Tod-Work | eightyeight++ |
| 21:56.02 | Tod-Work | ~karma eightyeight |
| 21:56.02 | infobot | eightyeight has karma of 5 |
| 21:56.08 | Tod-Work | ~eightyeight++ |
| 21:56.25 | Tod-Work | this is why we can't have nice things |
| 21:56.40 | Tod-Work | ~karma eightyeight |
| 21:56.40 | infobot | eightyeight has karma of 6 |
| 21:56.52 | eightyeight | heh |
| 21:57.26 | jlp_znc | but I have to admit, I have not used btrfs in production. |
| 21:57.46 | eightyeight | i will admit that i'm watching it. along with ceph. |
| 21:58.03 | eightyeight | i feel like things are getting close. just not there yet. |
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| 22:01.49 | bregalad | eightyeight: that means they're not moving fast, therefore they're not cool |
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| 22:04.08 | jlp_znc | ceph is pretty freaking cool. |
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| 22:14.40 | bregalad | linux just jumped major versions like it was nothing, now that's moving fast, rite? |
| 22:15.04 | bregalad | maybe they should even skip a major version next time; that would be dope |
| 22:16.21 | bregalad | 'all those features and bug fixes in in windows 9? Well, we decided to jump way past it with windows 10 and leave it behind because we're going into the future' |
| 22:17.57 | fungus | bregalad, the major version bump in the kernel was easy because it wasn't interesting. It wasn't a major change, just a number they felt like increasing. |
| 22:18.57 | bregalad | nowai, that's totally amazing |
| 22:19.00 | bregalad | trolls |
| 22:19.11 | fungus | So you can't call it a major version any more. There is nothing major about it. |
| 22:19.28 | bregalad | linux is now at version 0.4.0.4 |
| 22:19.33 | fungus | The number is now meaningless |
| 22:19.55 | bregalad | UUIDs are orderable, right? :-) |
| 22:20.05 | jlp_znc | yep, it's just a number. they should probably just start using the revision number from git. |
| 22:20.16 | jlp_znc | (don't they use git for the kernel?) |
| 22:21.05 | bregalad | I bet git is just for show, the real work is done with an amalgamation of shell and busy work |
| 22:21.26 | jlp_znc | I'm using linux version efd01085974da90ee297f12e228719dfdce774b2 |
| 22:21.43 | jlp_znc | wheee! |
| 22:24.29 | eightyeight | i've never understood the <major>.<minor>.<revision>. ... numbering scheme |
| 22:24.41 | eightyeight | i think ubuntu did it right. yy.mm |
| 22:25.02 | eightyeight | it's descriptive and simple |
| 22:25.13 | bregalad | you mean you're not a http://semver.org/ believer? |
| 22:25.20 | eightyeight | correct |
| 22:25.59 | bregalad | I can see advantages to both schemes, I only wish salt had gone full ubuntu with version numbers |
| 22:26.20 | jlp_znc | I think the major.minor.revision model is supposed to work like this: revisions change every time you do a build, they are for bug fixes. minor revision numbers change every time you add a new feature (or set of new features) and make a "release". major numbers change when you make changes that are not backwards compatible (i.e., you change an API or something) |
| 22:26.24 | bregalad | saying 2014.7.5 is a big chore |
| 22:27.00 | jlp_znc | ahh, so my view is the same as semver, whatever that is. :-) |
| 22:27.07 | eightyeight | the problem with semver though, is if you never make releases that break backwards compatibility, you never grow past 1.x.y |
| 22:27.18 | jlp_znc | and you care why? |
| 22:27.25 | eightyeight | i don't. users do. |
| 22:27.36 | eightyeight | "version 1? does that mean it's not very good?" |
| 22:27.58 | jlp_znc | response: "no, it means we didn't do anything wrong enough to need a version 2" |
| 22:28.04 | bregalad | people thing you're not cool if you don't regularly bump the major version like googe-chrome-beta |
| 22:28.21 | jlp_znc | people are dolts |
| 22:28.27 | eightyeight | if competitors have bigger numbers, it must be better |
| 22:28.34 | eightyeight | they don't communicate that to devs |
| 22:28.43 | eightyeight | they just judge themselves, and make a poor decision |
| 22:28.55 | jlp_znc | now, there is a difference between your internal versioning scheme and whatever marketing wants to call it |
| 22:29.01 | jlp_znc | witness Solaris 2 |
| 22:29.07 | jlp_znc | (a.k.a. SunOS 5) |
| 22:29.14 | bregalad | I remember reading once about how when microsoft started naming their versions after years that it was a genius marketing move because it reminded people how old their stuff is |
| 22:29.38 | eightyeight | slackware 4.0 -> 7.0. "because everyone else has big numbers" |
| 22:29.59 | eightyeight | firefox weekly releases. because google is doing it. |
| 22:30.05 | eightyeight | semver is worthless |
| 22:30.33 | jlp_znc | semver is useful internally. no need to publish those versions to the great unwashed masses, though. |
| 22:31.02 | eightyeight | my point is, though, the masses do watch the version numbers |
| 22:31.18 | jlp_znc | so give them their own nice version numbers that don't really mean anything to you |
| 22:31.26 | eightyeight | thus, yy.mm |
| 22:31.39 | jlp_znc | sure, even YYYYMMDDNN |
| 22:31.45 | eightyeight | too verbose |
| 22:31.50 | jlp_znc | (in case you had more than one build in a day) |
| 22:32.09 | jlp_znc | in the end, it's just a number so you can equate what they have to what you built |
| 22:32.45 | jlp_znc | and, ideally, so you can tell if what you have is newer/older than what they have |
| 22:32.45 | eightyeight | it is. i just find more value in something descriptive and understandable by common masses. i feel semver isn't it. |
| 22:32.46 | bregalad | well defined versions are way more important in dependency calculations than marketing |
| 22:33.03 | eightyeight | codenames aren't it either, imo |
| 22:33.23 | eightyeight | great for internal. whatever. but shouldn't be released publicly, imo |
| 22:33.47 | eightyeight | IE: is "Mental Monkey" the latest version? or "Bouncy Beaver"? |
| 22:33.54 | jlp_znc | like gingerbread, honeycomb, ice cream sandwich, etc. |
| 22:33.59 | bregalad | yeah, I hate it when people refer to debian or ubuntu releases by codenames because I have to go to wikipedia to look it up |
| 22:34.01 | eightyeight | when was "Vector Video" released? |
| 22:34.06 | eightyeight | exactly |
| 22:34.43 | bregalad | it's like referring to a street by some arbitrary name rather than it's numerical value |
| 22:34.45 | bregalad | duh |
| 22:34.50 | jlp_znc | heh heh |
| 22:35.12 | bregalad | people want to attach sentiments to names rather than numbers |
| 22:35.37 | jlp_znc | on the base where I grew up, the housing area had named streets where each street was named after a type of tree... with alphabetically increasing names: alder, beech, cedar, dogwood, etc. |
| 22:36.04 | jlp_znc | you had the comfort of street names with the regularity of being able to tell how many blocks you had to go to get to someone's house |
| 22:36.42 | jlp_znc | it went as far as larch. I don't know what they would have done if they needed more than 26 streets for the housing area |
| 22:36.51 | eightyeight | because knowing the distance from 'm' to 'v' is intuitive. :) |
| 22:36.58 | bregalad | that can be a good compromise, but I love SL county's preeminent grid system, where they don't try to hide the useful numbers with dingbat names |
| 22:37.07 | bregalad | some of the time, anyway |
| 22:37.09 | jlp_znc | I love the grid system, too |
| 22:37.23 | jlp_znc | when someone gives me an address with a name, I ask what the number is for that. |
| 22:37.44 | jlp_znc | if I have the coordinates, I can find it. I might end up driving around in goofy subdivision hell for a bit, but I will find it. |
| 22:37.46 | eightyeight | on the other hand, it's entertaining to get mail from companies that aren't familiar with the grid system |
| 22:38.04 | bregalad | it used to really bug me that google maps often borks on grid addresses until I switched to open street maps |
| 22:38.07 | jlp_znc | "so, how do you like N 200 W stree?" |
| 22:38.15 | eightyeight | ^ that |
| 22:38.30 | jlp_znc | they're not set up to handle it |
| 22:38.49 | eightyeight | but nothing is more frustrating than going to toronto, looking for "123 church st.", and finding that there are 3 of them |
| 22:38.55 | jlp_znc | I hate the grid system in vegas, though. the individual address numbers have nothing to do with the street numbers |
| 22:39.06 | jlp_znc | so address 285 might be between 5th street and 6th street |
| 22:39.19 | jima | st. paul is like that, too. |
| 22:39.27 | bregalad | that's annoying |
| 22:39.30 | jima | minneapolis isn't, though. |
| 22:39.33 | eightyeight | jima: yeah. i noticed that with my brother's address when he lived there |
| 22:39.56 | jima | that fact is even true in downtown st. paul...pissed me off the first time i noticed it. |
| 22:40.03 | eightyeight | "how does that work? your house number is 43, but you're between 1st and 2nd" |
| 22:40.25 | jlp_znc | well, it's the 43rd house. maybe. |
| 22:40.37 | jima | former minnesota jesse ventura once caught grief for saying that the streets of st. paul were laid out by drunken irishmen. |
| 22:40.41 | jima | +governor |
| 22:40.49 | jima | he was right, though. |
| 22:41.00 | jlp_znc | no, they were drunken norwegians |
| 22:41.07 | jima | ja, you betcha |
| 22:41.14 | jlp_znc | don' cha know |
| 22:41.20 | eightyeight | boston streets, so i have heard, were former cow paths |
| 22:41.25 | jima | you've read howard mohr's book? |
| 22:41.29 | jlp_znc | that I can believe. |
| 22:41.36 | jlp_znc | they are about as wide as cows |
| 22:41.43 | eightyeight | hates driving in boston |
| 22:41.50 | eightyeight | such a mess |
| 22:41.52 | jlp_znc | who's howard mohr? |
| 22:42.05 | jima | spent 30 years in minnesota, which was at least 10 years too long. |
| 22:42.39 | jima | jlp_znc: http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Minnesotan-Howard-Mohr/dp/1565114930 |
| 22:43.07 | jlp_znc | no, haven't read it. I lived in Duluth. My dad is also from MN. |
| 22:43.24 | jima | i'm sorry. |
| 22:43.27 | jlp_znc | I picked it up from my grandma and my cousins. :-) |
| 22:43.39 | jima | at least i lived in the twin cities. :-) |
| 22:43.46 | jlp_znc | we moved from Biloxi MS to Duluth MN. that was a bit of a shocker. |
| 22:43.52 | jima | oh, wow. |
| 22:44.05 | jima | except the summer humidity, maybe |
| 22:44.08 | jlp_znc | I was only six at the time, though, so I didn't really know any better. |
| 22:44.48 | jlp_znc | so, do you have any good Ole/Sven jokes? |
| 22:44.59 | jima | ole/lena |
| 22:45.13 | jlp_znc | Vell, Lena gets involved some uf da time. |
| 22:45.27 | jima | i'm danish/german from that side, maybe the norwegians focus on ole/sven |
| 22:45.36 | jima | or swedes |
| 22:45.52 | jima | i think i've forgotten most of those jokes, sadly. |
| 22:46.05 | jlp_znc | my favorite: Sven says to Ole: "Hey, dere, Ole! I heard you vend down into de bottom of de outhouse de udder day." |
| 22:46.31 | jlp_znc | Ole: "Vell, ya, I had dropped a couple of qvarters in dere, so I tossed in my vallet and vatch, too." |
| 22:46.42 | jlp_znc | Sven: "Vat vould you do dat for?" |
| 22:46.59 | jlp_znc | Ole: "I vasn't goin' to go down dere for yust fifty cents!" |
| 22:47.53 | jima | i think i remember that one. |
| 22:51.34 | jima | ok, errand time, everyone have a nice night |
| 22:51.57 | bregalad | I didn't know you were a knight |
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