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| 16:00.41 | bregalad | ~napoleon |
| 16:00.41 | infobot | Sweet! That's like a dollar an hour! |
| 16:07.58 | Migs | http://www.pcworld.com/article/2898039/the-sucks-domain-is-coming-soon-to-an-angry-website-near-you.html |
| 16:12.04 | Migs | hoover.sucks |
| 16:19.19 | asoc | I can see the vacuum industry buying those names like crazy |
| 16:23.28 | jalbretsen | the article already suggested the one I want. comcast.sucks |
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| 16:25.29 | bregalad | does this mean that companies will finally realize that they cannot litigate the world to keep pretending that everyone likes them? |
| 16:35.48 | jalbretsen | what will likely happen will most companies will jump on this and register their domains so no one else will make a negative site about them |
| 16:36.43 | shalkie | It is brilliant in its passive aggressive way of getting money! |
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| 16:37.23 | shalkie | s/!/./ |
| 16:37.32 | shalkie | decided it wasn't that exciting. |
| 16:38.29 | bregalad | ~pinky |
| 16:38.29 | infobot | Narf! |
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| 17:05.17 | goozbach | for pete's sake! |
| 17:05.35 | goozbach | *ANOTHER* packaging tool!? |
| 17:05.38 | goozbach | php composer? |
| 17:05.52 | goozbach | why can't i be given a list of dependancies and install them via YUM!? |
| 17:06.03 | unum | that tends to by my feeling |
| 17:06.17 | unum | during my brief usage of composer (5 seconds) |
| 17:06.22 | goozbach | the kicker?: to install composer you curl somesite | php |
| 17:06.25 | unum | it seems the idea is to make it project specific |
| 17:06.33 | goozbach | curlpipe == NO! |
| 17:06.36 | unum | debian has a yum package |
| 17:06.46 | goozbach | still |
| 17:06.55 | goozbach | give me depenancies, and I'll install them! |
| 17:07.34 | unum | I need the facebook selinuim driver for my presentation |
| 17:07.48 | unum | that was the recommended way to install them |
| 17:08.10 | unum | couldn't even use pear |
| 17:08.18 | bregalad | goozbach: all the cool languages have "package managers" |
| 17:08.26 | bregalad | php is still trying to be cool |
| 17:09.12 | bregalad | every single one of them, with the possible exception of cpan, are the suxorz |
| 17:09.58 | bregalad | probably because cpan is very old and already integrates with the package manager on gentoo |
| 17:10.26 | goozbach | bregalad: even with CPAN I'll use cpan2rpm or the like for "deployment" |
| 17:11.37 | Jayce^ | but it provides what you need to accomplish that |
| 17:11.40 | bregalad | goozbach: yeah |
| 17:12.01 | bregalad | not even pip can do that :-( |
| 17:12.41 | Jayce^ | the joy of TIMTOWTDI |
| 17:14.00 | jlp_znc | curl somesite | php? yikes! |
| 17:14.11 | jlp_znc | um, no. |
| 17:14.37 | joshh | slightly better than curl | sudo bash |
| 17:15.20 | goozbach | http://jordaneldredge.com/blog/one-way-curl-pipe-sh-install-scripts-can-be-dangerous/ |
| 17:15.49 | goozbach | http://curlpipesh.tumblr.com/ |
| 17:23.33 | jlp_znc | wow |
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| 19:37.15 | shalkie | Who would install a site that way?! |
| 19:38.13 | programmerq | I agree that the curlpipe is stupid |
| 19:38.20 | shalkie | Also am I the only one that thought about dredging at Jordanel reservoir? |
| 19:38.42 | programmerq | but in my experience, distro package managers don't keep up with the various language-level frameworks. |
| 19:38.59 | programmerq | and something like a composer.json declares exactly what the code needs |
| 19:39.02 | programmerq | ...which is a good thing... |
| 19:39.10 | levi | Lots and lots of people do it, because it's really convenient. |
| 19:39.16 | bregalad | programmerq: that's why you create a repo for that distro's package manager |
| 19:39.55 | bregalad | you get both the recentness you desire and the stability provided by a real package manager |
| 19:40.16 | levi | bregalad: Because everyone wants to maintain repos for a bunch of different package managers. |
| 19:40.39 | bregalad | levi: I'm not sure what you mean by that |
| 19:40.41 | programmerq | yeah, in my experience "build your own" turns out to be quite a lot of work. I've seen projects with hundreds of dependencies. |
| 19:41.11 | bregalad | a project with hundreds of dependencies probably has other problems |
| 19:41.18 | shalkie | I get the convenience factor but I would hope people would only do that from a site they absolutely trust. Ideally something they control and a script they wrote. |
| 19:41.21 | levi | bregalad: So you create a new language that runs on n different platforms, each of which has a platform-specific package manager. |
| 19:41.27 | programmerq | building your own repo of hundreds of packages only used by you/your team probably doesn't buy you that much stability anyway. |
| 19:41.42 | bregalad | programmerq: I'm not saying that projects make you create packages, I'm saying that they should be creating distro-specific packages |
| 19:42.14 | bregalad | like use composer's deb or rpm tools, assuming that those existed |
| 19:42.16 | levi | bregalad: Are you going to prefer to maintain n packages in n different formats per each of your m language-specific packages, or are you going to prefer to maintain m language-specific packages in your own package format? |
| 19:42.18 | programmerq | so if I want to use celery, and three third party plugins, I have to enable four yum repos? |
| 19:42.39 | bregalad | programmerq: yes |
| 19:42.51 | levi | bregalad: You aren't thinking this through. Tsk. |
| 19:43.00 | programmerq | because third party yum repos always play nicely together. |
| 19:43.05 | bregalad | programmerq: this makes you think much more about the inherent instabiligy of your project design |
| 19:43.24 | bregalad | levi: I've thought through this many times |
| 19:43.24 | programmerq | using common code that is in widespread use is generally considered good practice, in my experience. |
| 19:45.10 | bregalad | programmerq: actually what would be better is to allow language specific package managers to use the distro package manager transparently |
| 19:45.32 | levi | bregalad: Why are you so keen on distros? |
| 19:46.07 | bregalad | so that when you do pip install <pkg>, it generates an rpm and then calls yum to install that |
| 19:46.22 | bregalad | levi: one of the services a distro provides is a sane package environment |
| 19:46.40 | bregalad | I'm tired of pip et al screwing things up |
| 19:46.55 | programmerq | how does pip screw things up? |
| 19:47.01 | levi | How does pip screw up your 'sane' package environment? |
| 19:47.14 | programmerq | is someone doing 'sudo pip install' system-wide? |
| 19:47.22 | programmerq | yes, that is dumb and you shouldn't do that, I agree |
| 19:47.31 | programmerq | and yes, devs don't know that. |
| 19:47.45 | bregalad | by defecating all over the place, not cleaning up after itself, and wantonly screwing with files brought in by other packages |
| 19:48.00 | programmerq | but if it's in a virtualenv in an application user directory, it won't touch the system. |
| 19:48.30 | levi | In my experience, distros tend to all be insane to varying degrees. |
| 19:48.36 | bregalad | programmerq: that's the problem, you're not thinking about deployment |
| 19:49.09 | programmerq | uhhh |
| 19:49.13 | programmerq | that's kind of what I do |
| 19:49.26 | programmerq | pip install in a virtualenv is a perfectly sane way to deploy python code. |
| 19:49.55 | bregalad | levi: I agree with that, I also think that multiplying many package managers greatly adds to the potential insanity |
| 19:50.44 | bregalad | programmerq: I'm glad virtualenv deploys work for you, but I've also seen cases where that can cause further problems |
| 19:51.10 | programmerq | bregalad: oh? that's interesting. that's by far the most common way to deploy python code. what is the rest of the python community missing then? |
| 19:51.30 | programmerq | I don't see an actual tangible problem created by using these package manager properly |
| 19:51.41 | programmerq | they work in production in practice across a great number of projects |
| 19:51.48 | programmerq | are they perfect? no |
| 19:51.54 | programmerq | do they work very well? yes. |
| 19:52.10 | fungus | I see 3 solutions: 1. Force all distros to use the same package manager. 2. Use lang specific PMs (pip, gem,etc). 3. Use curlpipes, and highly compatible build scripts. |
| 19:53.30 | fungus | 1 will never happen, 2 and 3 are fairly popular already. |
| 19:53.54 | levi | I prefer my OS to provide baseline stuff, and for custom builds or language-specific package managers to supply the stuff I interact with on a regular basis. |
| 19:53.58 | programmerq | source: I deploy mostly python, ruby, and php applications for a living. |
| 19:54.10 | levi | I don't really care about the OS, it's just a substrate to run the stuff I'm developing on. |
| 19:54.24 | programmerq | not having to run any deploy steps as root, and having uber repeatability with pip/gem/compose is a huge win |
| 19:54.53 | programmerq | I can create many environments across different hosts that are identical based on my requirements.txt, Gemfile.lock, or compose.json file |
| 19:55.02 | programmerq | I can run my OS-level updates without worrying about breaking my application |
| 19:55.14 | bregalad | my users would much rather install a distro package than a python package |
| 19:55.23 | programmerq | new version of the mysql gem with a backwards compatibility issue? BROKEN |
| 19:55.27 | bregalad | and I can't blame them, considering what our project does |
| 19:56.20 | programmerq | that may be true, but that doesn't negate the fact that pip/gem/compose installs solve a lot of problems for the vast majority of the python/ruby/php communities |
| 19:56.28 | fungus | It depends on the intended audience. programmerq's method is best for deploying application servers and such. |
| 19:57.12 | programmerq | the best part about any tool, of course, is that if it doesn't work for your use case, don't use it. that doesn't make everyone else "wrong" though. |
| 19:57.13 | fungus | bregalad's users are trying to install user apps. A very different experience. |
| 19:57.22 | levi | If you're deploying something that integrates with the OS, doing distro-specific packaging makes more sense. |
| 19:57.42 | programmerq | yeah, I wouldn't expect a python gui app to use a virtualenv-- that would suck. |
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| 19:57.53 | programmerq | in fact, I do get annoyed when they want to do it that way. :) |
| 19:58.10 | bregalad | but the more package managers you involve in the deployment, the less stable your deployment will be |
| 19:58.21 | fungus | Example: dropbox and chrome users would like to use their system PM. |
| 19:58.32 | programmerq | bregalad: I have years of experience using those package managers that says otherwise. |
| 19:58.42 | bregalad | I guess that's an indication that your application is not modular enough |
| 19:59.22 | fungus | Now a web application or J2EE app, is best deployed individually. |
| 19:59.32 | programmerq | why would I need my application to be more modular when I get deploys that work across a large number of servers repeatably and stay up until I take them down? |
| 19:59.57 | programmerq | it's a non-problem |
| 20:02.05 | programmerq | for desktop-gui apps, sometimes an embedded copy of the interpretor seems to work. that's getting outside my realm of expertise though. |
| 20:04.42 | bregalad | the big advantage that a package manager provides is idempotence |
| 20:05.02 | levi | In my dream utopian future, we'd all be using Nix for package management, and all builds would be exactly as specified and completely repeatable. |
| 20:05.16 | bregalad | I guess if you're creating disposable VMs or containers then you don't care about that |
| 20:05.49 | programmerq | I can get idempotence out of a pip requirements.txt |
| 20:05.52 | programmerq | or a Gemfile.lock |
| 20:05.55 | bregalad | or disposable projects |
| 20:06.30 | programmerq | but with as quickly as python/ruby/php packages release updates, I'd have to lock versions in yum all the time |
| 20:06.37 | programmerq | that sounds like a nightmare |
| 20:06.44 | bregalad | programmerq: yeah, that's great, but when you have more than one notion of idempotence from more than one package manager, you can have problems |
| 20:07.14 | programmerq | bregalad: you keep referencing hypothetical problems, but I haven't seen them in all the years that I've used these very causes of said hypothetical problems |
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| 20:07.24 | programmerq | so I'm confused what you are trying to convey. |
| 20:07.37 | bregalad | programmerq: the problems that I've dealt with are not hypothetical |
| 20:07.46 | programmerq | go on. |
| 20:08.00 | bregalad | mixing and matching dependencies coming from multiple package managers is not idempotent |
| 20:08.18 | programmerq | ah, so you're talking about people using 'pip install' against the system site-packages |
| 20:08.21 | programmerq | yeah, you shouldn't do that |
| 20:08.24 | programmerq | problem solved. |
| 20:08.51 | programmerq | use pip for non-system locations and leave the system locations for the distro package managers |
| 20:08.56 | programmerq | absolutely 100% agree with you there |
| 20:08.57 | bregalad | programmerq: you seem to really want to win an argument today :-) |
| 20:09.03 | levi | So does a sudo pip install put packages in the same place your OS package manager does? |
| 20:09.08 | programmerq | levi: yes |
| 20:09.17 | programmerq | and bregalad and I agree that is bad |
| 20:09.18 | levi | Well, that's stupid. |
| 20:09.19 | youtah | I want a Tesla |
| 20:09.23 | programmerq | youtah: me too! |
| 20:09.26 | youtah | lol |
| 20:09.30 | fozzmoo | ~lart youtah |
| 20:09.30 | infobot | gets a hotmal account and SPAMs youtah |
| 20:09.30 | bregalad | lets programmerq win all arguments for the day |
| 20:09.37 | programmerq | youtah: I test drove one a couple months back. |
| 20:09.43 | programmerq | it was a p85 |
| 20:09.45 | programmerq | it was *amazing* |
| 20:09.50 | youtah | spangborn just went for a ride in one |
| 20:09.55 | fozzmoo | has a friend who has a P85d |
| 20:09.57 | levi | I also want a Tesla, in the sense that I'd really like it if someone loaned me one long-term. |
| 20:10.04 | spangborn | It was amazeballs |
| 20:10.07 | spangborn | P85D |
| 20:10.08 | shalkie | A hotmail account? Well that is fancy. |
| 20:10.10 | youtah | drools |
| 20:10.21 | youtah | at the hotmail account AND the Tesla |
| 20:10.23 | programmerq | yeah, the p85d hadn't been released yet when I did the test drive. |
| 20:10.27 | spangborn | He turned on insane mode, hahaha |
| 20:10.31 | shalkie | I have a boss and a coworker with Teslas. |
| 20:10.37 | spangborn | Stopped on the freeway onramp. And then hit it hard. |
| 20:10.57 | shalkie | They have spunk. And Silent, oh so silent. |
| 20:11.04 | programmerq | I got on the freeway in the p85. I was pretty shy getting on the freeway, but it was still amazing. |
| 20:11.12 | programmerq | I should do another test drive. |
| 20:11.19 | youtah | perhaps I should tag along? |
| 20:11.28 | youtah | Can you fit >2 people in one? |
| 20:11.34 | shalkie | programmerq: Where did you do a test drive? |
| 20:11.43 | programmerq | shalkie: san francisco |
| 20:11.50 | programmerq | I'll be out there again next week |
| 20:11.51 | fungus | Kick the sales guy out, and drive off. Free Tesla. |
| 20:12.01 | programmerq | maybe I should set up another appointment. |
| 20:12.03 | shalkie | Okay, I noticed a dealership in LA off the 405 now. |
| 20:12.04 | levi | Teslas (aside from the roadster) are pretty roomy. |
| 20:12.05 | fozzmoo | You can fit 7 people in a Tesla, if you get the rearward-facing 3rd row. |
| 20:12.22 | programmerq | I'm going to seriously consider the model 3 |
| 20:12.34 | levi | I haven't sat in one, but someone in our building owns one and I walk past it on occasion. |
| 20:12.50 | spangborn | They're four seaters. |
| 20:13.05 | fozzmoo | I checked them out in a show room in Houston a couple years ago. |
| 20:13.06 | programmerq | spangborn: the one you were in didn't have a middle seatbelt in the back? |
| 20:13.24 | youtah | You can fit about 53 people in a tesla, in a dehydrated powder form |
| 20:13.33 | levi | Gotta love the size of the center console touchscreen. |
| 20:13.35 | shalkie | They are nice, plus you get a nice little web app for monitoring and control. It is funny to watch my coworker turn on the AC/heating and watch his phone to decide when he should head out. |
| 20:13.35 | youtah | is guessing |
| 20:13.52 | bregalad | whatever |
| 20:13.54 | shalkie | youtah: I suspect your being very conservative. |
| 20:13.55 | bregalad | cars are lame |
| 20:15.03 | shalkie | I was just going to figure out the amount of "people" you could put in a tesla assuming vacuum packing and decided that I don't want to know that... |
| 20:15.09 | shalkie | ~lart youtah |
| 20:15.09 | infobot | eats youtah's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti |
| 20:15.28 | shalkie | That seems oddly appropriate. |
| 20:15.30 | youtah | So spangborn you are buying one now? |
| 20:15.47 | spangborn | lol, like I can afford a $115K car. |
| 20:15.57 | youtah | shalkie, you're probably correct... It's probably way conservative |
| 20:16.08 | spangborn | Even just the LEASE payments on that car, they're more than my mortgage payments. |
| 20:16.15 | fozzmoo | When my Forester bites the dust, I'll seriously consider a Tesla. Hopefully, by then, the cost will be a tad more reasonable. |
| 20:16.29 | youtah | like the $40k model ? |
| 20:16.49 | programmerq | yeah, my plan is to buy a couple investment properties. I figure after about a decade of investing, I could afford a car in the same class as the model s |
| 20:16.53 | spangborn | I meant the P85D - $115K base :( |
| 20:16.59 | shalkie | Or you could look at something like the Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf. |
| 20:19.04 | programmerq | my brother-in-law put money down for the model X |
| 20:20.10 | Jayce^ | I'll probably look heavily when the 3 comes out |
| 20:20.27 | programmerq | it's too bad that our legislators flipped tesla the bird |
| 20:20.30 | unum | I probably could my a model s if it wasn't for my "investment properties" |
| 20:20.47 | spangborn | They're still selling them online to Utah. |
| 20:20.51 | spangborn | That's how my coworker got his. |
| 20:20.53 | Jayce^ | yeah, hoping next session we can get those last votes |
| 20:20.55 | programmerq | yup |
| 20:21.02 | spangborn | And the dealership here can still act as a maintenance spot and showroom. |
| 20:21.23 | programmerq | oh, I didn't know they would let it function as a showroom. |
| 20:21.35 | spangborn | I could be wrong, but that's what I had heard. |
| 20:21.58 | spangborn | Anyway, an amazing car. Beautiful inside and out. |
| 20:22.10 | Jayce^ | they just have to toe the line in what they say, because dealerships will bring in lawyers to bait them into crossing some legal line |
| 20:22.14 | spangborn | The UI of their software is beautiful. |
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| 21:18.06 | bregalad | controversial statement |
| 21:23.19 | youtah | http://imgur.com/gallery/idAiu |
| 21:23.57 | bregalad | http://youtah.horse/ |
| 21:24.24 | RyanE | dang. No youtah.horse. |
| 21:24.26 | RyanE | :( |
| 21:25.26 | youtah | someone wanna donate it to me |
| 21:25.36 | youtah | I am saving up my pennies for the youth.sucks domain |
| 21:27.07 | *** join/#utah RegionSyx (~regionsyx@c-174-52-198-61.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 21:28.57 | RyanE | I'm saving for youtah.sucks |
| 21:29.41 | youtah | lol, oh crap |
| 21:29.50 | youtah | THANKS A LOT MAC AUTOCORRECT |
| 21:30.23 | bregalad | lol |
| 21:30.23 | youtah | keeps changing youtah to youth. |
| 21:30.31 | RyanE | I love youth's pictures. |
| 21:30.36 | youtah | LOL |
| 21:30.56 | Jayce^ | http://imgur.com/gallery/RhXC6 |
| 21:31.02 | Jayce^ | WIN |
| 21:31.32 | youtah | It's CENTAUR-IFIC |
| 21:35.45 | unum | there's .wtf |
| 21:36.08 | bregalad | youtah.horse.wtf |
| 21:36.10 | unum | mulls buying utah.wtf |
| 21:39.27 | youtah | quit being such a blog fish! |
| 21:39.29 | youtah | blob |
| 21:41.58 | RyanE | damn auto-correct. |
| 21:45.11 | youtah | that one wasn't autocorrect |
| 21:55.08 | unum | there's a .gripe |
| 21:55.17 | unum | they want $24.88 |
| 21:59.20 | unum | utah.wtf is taken! |
| 22:00.07 | unum | darn so it utah.gripe |
| 22:17.47 | RyanE | how about utah.tripe |
| 22:27.45 | *** join/#utah RuShan (~RuShan@68.69.169.116) |
| 22:32.22 | *** join/#utah kendsnyder (~Adium@68.69.174.66) |
| 22:46.56 | bregalad | ~rot31337 youtah.utah |
| 22:46.56 | infobot | fvbaho.baho |
| 22:49.09 | youtah | lol |
| 22:49.16 | youtah | ~rot13 rot13 |
| 22:49.16 | infobot | ebg13 |
| 22:53.36 | youtah | I am excited to go to the AWS Meetup tonight |
| 22:54.44 | levi | What's going to be discussed at the AWS Meetup? |
| 22:55.28 | youtah | Ummm. |
| 22:55.32 | youtah | lemme get you the linkage |
| 22:55.47 | youtah | http://www.meetup.com/Salt-Lake-AWS/events/220256662/ |
| 22:56.03 | youtah | "Practical CloudFormation " |
| 22:56.12 | youtah | "Overview of Elastic Block Storage including Magnetic, Provisioned IOPS, and General Purpose, and the differences between products" |
| 22:59.22 | levi | Huh. |
| 23:01.42 | youtah | It's their very first one |
| 23:10.20 | *** join/#utah bgerber (~gerberb@suse103.zenez.com) |
| 23:15.22 | youtah | 1hr 15m |
| 23:19.27 | unum | .ninja!!!!! |
| 23:24.25 | youtah | http://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.html |
| 23:32.16 | *** join/#utah neanderslob (~quassel@c-76-23-38-21.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:42.45 | *** join/#utah neanderslob (~quassel@c-76-23-38-21.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 23:58.36 | *** part/#utah Nemus (~Nemus@unaffiliated/nemus) |