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| 00:19.07 | jlp_znc | success! |
| 00:20.10 | jlp_znc | except mosh doesn't want to penetrate the firewall here. :-( |
| 00:20.45 | jlp_znc | well, more fiddling required. ProxyCommand seems to be working as expected, at least. |
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| 00:48.12 | klys_ | ~slashdot |
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| 15:30.41 | eightyeight | heh. apparently, glenn beck is still a thing: http://wonkette.com/569594/glenn-beck-is-sick-and-tired-of-all-this-racism-against-glenn-beck |
| 15:30.44 | eightyeight | mwahahaha |
| 15:32.11 | jima | wat |
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| 16:29.30 | fozzmoo | Yes, Glenn Beck is still continues to be a thing. |
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| 16:30.56 | fozzmoo | I don't think Glenn Beck was the only one who found the Obamas claims of racism to be flimsy and superfluous. |
| 16:31.47 | fozzmoo | First of all, it's mighty ironic for the first black president of the United States to say he experiences racial discrimination. It's pathetic really. |
| 16:31.49 | eightyeight | <PROTECTED> |
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| 16:32.44 | fozzmoo | And the First Lady claims it was racism that someone asked her to grab something off the top shelf at Target? Maybe because she's a tall person, not because she's black. |
| 16:33.00 | eightyeight | No one has understood bigotry like Glenn Beck. We should start a civil rights compaign to protect Christian whites in America. |
| 16:34.16 | fozzmoo | Some context would help. |
| 16:34.29 | fozzmoo | (as usual.) |
| 16:34.49 | jima | i used to get asked to grab stuff off top shelves at the grocery store all the time |
| 16:35.06 | jima | serves me right for moving to munchkintown. |
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| 16:41.53 | Jayce^ | fozzmoo: check your height privilege |
| 16:42.53 | Jayce^ | oh wait, was that sufficiently trigger-warninged? |
| 16:43.18 | jima | check your trigger privilege |
| 16:45.58 | Jayce^ | does need to get some more range time in... |
| 16:46.44 | jima | i said trigger privilege, not trigger discipline. ;-) |
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| 17:50.05 | youtah | hey goozbach https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152658964788681&set=vb.25139098680&type=2&theater |
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| 18:14.07 | jlp_znc | why, oh why is sieve blocked from the outbound firewall? |
| 18:14.15 | jlp_znc | port forward to the rescue |
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| 19:39.34 | eightyeight | the systemd unit files are sexy |
| 19:39.39 | eightyeight | case in point: http://ae7.st/p/44b |
| 19:39.48 | eightyeight | so much better than a crufty init script |
| 19:41.01 | eightyeight | oh, and booting on a laptop with an ssd? bios post. grub. login. |
| 19:41.06 | eightyeight | < 10s |
| 19:42.33 | jalbretsen | forks eightyeight over systemd, creates eighty-uan |
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| 21:09.48 | programmerq | I'm also a fan of systemd. |
| 21:10.03 | programmerq | I'd be in favor of a system that gives me the same advantages that isn't as bloaty |
| 21:10.36 | programmerq | but as it is, I'm fairly happy with it so far. |
| 21:10.47 | programmerq | you know, as long as we're voicing unpopular opinions wrt systemd |
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| 21:12.58 | jlp_znc | :-) |
| 21:13.26 | jlp_znc | init and rc.d were good enough for DMR, so they should be good enough for you! |
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| 21:29.03 | Tene | I still don't understand the standards by which people are describing systemd as "bloated". /lib/systemd/systemd is 1.2M? That doesn't really seem excessive to me? |
| 21:29.20 | Tene | Maybe if you're running on a tiny little microcontroller? |
| 21:29.44 | Tene | I must be entirely missing the point. |
| 21:29.50 | jlp_znc | $ du -sh /sbin/init |
| 21:29.59 | jlp_znc | 148K/sbin/init |
| 21:31.15 | Tene | $ grep MemTotal /proc/meminfo |
| 21:31.15 | Tene | MemTotal: 2939848 kB |
| 21:31.27 | jlp_znc | :-) |
| 21:31.29 | Tene | :) |
| 21:52.44 | jsmith | jlp_znc: Then again, systemd does a lot more than init :-p |
| 21:54.12 | d3c4f | like breaking posix compliance? |
| 21:54.19 | d3c4f | runs away |
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| 22:07.15 | programmerq | on a system that isn't posix compliant anyway, I say meh |
| 22:07.50 | programmerq | unless you bring that argument up because you want systemd to work on other systems, perhaps? |
| 22:08.12 | programmerq | yeah, I'm jumping ship on that. we should systemd-ize every posix OS out there! |
| 22:08.16 | programmerq | who's with me!? |
| 22:08.47 | d3c4f | irrational people? |
| 22:12.31 | programmerq | so, if they accepted a PR to switch out the interfaces it uses away from the linux-specific and use the posix interfaces instead, would you happily embrace it? I just don't see posix compliance itself being the real crux of your concern, you know? |
| 22:15.42 | eightyeight | i worry about feature creep on systemd, and so far, journalctl does not perform well on shared web hosts with several hundred MB log files |
| 22:16.41 | d3c4f | I think the question is: what is gained / lost from switching to systemd? To me there are very few gains (most of which are silly, like slightly fast possible boot times and "easier management") and many losses (posix, lots of dependencies, portability, etc). Couldn't this energy be better spent on some of the other major problems with linux? |
| 22:17.06 | eightyeight | i think the gains are bigger than that |
| 22:17.19 | programmerq | from what I have seen, the speed increase is more than slight. |
| 22:17.40 | eightyeight | ripping out the crufty, buggy, and slow shell init scripts, in favor of simplistic config files is a big win |
| 22:18.16 | eightyeight | and the dependency handling seems to be superior |
| 22:18.38 | programmerq | yeah, the socket passing eliminates the need to worry about race conditions. |
| 22:18.53 | d3c4f | perhaps, but in an enterprise setup, you don't reboot your whole infrastructure at the same time, unless there is a MAJOR problem, in which case you will have some downtime anyway. In a workstation/small business setup, the 10-20 extra seconds doesn't seam like a big deal at all. |
| 22:19.08 | fadein | who says that init scripts have to be crufty? or that they must be written in bourne shell at all? |
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| 22:19.15 | d3c4f | I will agree on some of the dep.mgmt |
| 22:19.23 | d3c4f | but I like init scripts |
| 22:19.38 | eightyeight | i hate them |
| 22:19.40 | d3c4f | and they really aren't that complicated, I think they are quite nice, tbh |
| 22:19.46 | fadein | if we're talking about replacing the entire init engine, why not insist on installing some "modern" interpreter and writing init programs in that language? |
| 22:20.12 | fadein | Python is still considered "modern", right? so write init programs in nice, clean, object oriented Python |
| 22:20.24 | fozzmoo | systemd is an improvement. |
| 22:20.26 | eightyeight | one of the problems with the current shell scripts based init system is teh execution time by the shell to interpret the script |
| 22:20.32 | fozzmoo | It's not without its downsides. |
| 22:20.48 | fozzmoo | Many people say systemd tries to take over the whole Linux system... and they have a point. |
| 22:20.48 | eightyeight | debian moved to /bin/dash for this very reason, because it is lighter, and executes more quickly than /bin/bash |
| 22:20.58 | fozzmoo | But for init replacement, it is definitely an improvement. |
| 22:21.28 | eightyeight | and when deploying a custom daemon, you have to keep an init script template around to fit |
| 22:21.36 | d3c4f | yeah, I agree one of the large problems with it is that it isn't JUST an init replacement |
| 22:21.41 | fozzmoo | One big problem with classic init scripts is that every flipping single init script implements the same general code. |
| 22:21.49 | eightyeight | then the K and S scripts in /etc/rc?.d/ don't add to 100 when enabling and disabling the service, breaking dependency |
| 22:22.00 | fozzmoo | systemd takes care of most of that functionality. |
| 22:22.07 | eightyeight | let alone Red Hat getting it wrong with /etc/rc.d/rc?.d/ |
| 22:22.48 | eightyeight | systmed is a big improvement in terms of management, fixing dpendency issues, unifying distros in the init space, and execution speed |
| 22:23.14 | fozzmoo | And parallellization (I love saying that outloud.) |
| 22:24.08 | asoc | fadein had a decent point with the whole "cruftyness" of shell scripts |
| 22:24.26 | eightyeight | i find init shell scripts fragile, and over complicated |
| 22:24.29 | programmerq | having faster boot times is nice when you want to dynamically add more capacity. |
| 22:24.30 | fadein | does anybody have any benchmarks on the execution times of 100-line Bourne shell init scripts? I sorta doubt that once /bin/sh is cached in memory that you're really spending _that_ much time |
| 22:25.15 | programmerq | as much as I like syslog, there are just too many programs that don't want to adhere to the syslog model. journalctl, imo, can handle more types of logging, which is a win when I have to admin lots of services that don't want to follow the syslog logging model. |
| 22:25.28 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 22:25.43 | eightyeight | i just wish it performed better. that's my big gripe of systemd- journalctl is slow, slow, slow |
| 22:26.15 | programmerq | yeah, I haven't pushed it that hard yet. logging systems absolutely need to perform. |
| 22:26.38 | eightyeight | i've only noticed it in trying to read large logs |
| 22:26.49 | fadein | I get it: slow init scripts == "dealbreaker"; slow journalctl == "meh, it doesn't slow down my reboot" |
| 22:26.49 | programmerq | though, to be honest, I really want a logging system that can take all my log streams and then marshall them to splunk or logstash. |
| 22:26.54 | eightyeight | i keep it disabled, for fear the writes suffer from similar performance problems |
| 22:27.34 | eightyeight | fadein: fast init, fast rsyslog. pretty straight forward. |
| 22:27.50 | eightyeight | although, the rsyslog team could, uhm, improve their docs |
| 22:27.51 | programmerq | I don't think anyway has said "meh" about the journalctl performance issues |
| 22:28.14 | programmerq | s/anyway/anyone/ |
| 22:28.24 | programmerq | my typing this week has been terrible. |
| 22:28.36 | eightyeight | hates writting custom one off rsyslog rules, when their docs are 'teh suck' |
| 22:33.00 | eightyeight | although, to be fair, the location of the systemd unit files is... strange |
| 22:33.07 | eightyeight | rather than /etc/ as is standard, it's /lib/ |
| 22:33.09 | eightyeight | weird |
| 22:33.43 | programmerq | yeah |
| 22:34.15 | d3c4f | welcome to linux, where filesystem structure and posix means NOTHINGS! |
| 22:34.17 | d3c4f | lol |
| 22:34.36 | d3c4f | grumble grumble FreeBSD |
| 22:34.42 | Jayce^ | ~cue drew carey meme |
| 22:34.49 | eightyeight | it's fairly standard with Red Hat, from what i've seen |
| 22:34.55 | eightyeight | standards usually take a back seat |
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| 23:54.22 | youtah | https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/545379913772302336 |