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| 05:12.26 | klys | @seen infobot |
| 05:13.26 | klys | ~seen infobot |
| 05:13.26 | infobot | infobot is currently on #stepcode (1d 11h 58m 52s) #maemo (1d 11h 58m 52s) #oe (1d 11h 58m 52s) #aegis (1d 11h 58m 52s) #tswuidev (1d 11h 58m 52s) #pillbox (1d 11h 58m 52s) ##bspress (1d 11h 58m 52s) #qi-hardware (1d 11h 58m 52s) ##ols (1d 11h 58m 52s) #wowhead (1d 11h 58m 52s) #asterisk-scf (1d 11h 58m 52s) #botpark (1d 11h 58m 52s) #n9 (1d 11h 58m ... |
| 05:13.40 | klys | ~seen me |
| 05:13.40 | infobot | klys: i haven't seen 'me' |
| 05:13.47 | klys | ~seen klys |
| 05:13.47 | infobot | klys is currently on #arm-netbook (1m 40s) #utah (1m 40s) ##lds (1m 40s). Has said a total of 4 messages. Is idling for 0s, last said: '~seen klys'. |
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| 05:24.21 | magmu | ~seen magmu |
| 05:24.22 | infobot | magmu is currently on #utah. Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 1s, last said: '~seen magmu'. |
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| 05:49.05 | klys | adds thunder to magmu's query |
| 05:49.35 | klys | ~slashdot |
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| 18:12.54 | youtah | 438 retweets and they're still rolling in https://twitter.com/youtah/status/538836526285615104 |
| 18:21.26 | youtah | Also, here are some of my shots from the weekend: http://utahpoliticohub.com/photos-protest-police-brutality-darren-wilson-verdict-downtown-salt-lake-city/ |
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| 19:34.03 | youtah | My tweet got 63,000 views |
| 19:35.23 | youtah | 2,584 embedded media clicks |
| 19:35.34 | youtah | 533 detailed media expands |
| 19:35.49 | youtah | 438 retweets |
| 19:35.52 | youtah | 396 favorites |
| 19:36.12 | youtah | LOL, one shared via email |
| 19:37.17 | youtah | 4243 "engagements" |
| 19:37.52 | wildcat | I know it would not necessarily be the proper channel to discuss that but... well.. as there seems to have a lot of IT people here |
| 19:38.12 | wildcat | anybody is installing debian automatically from the network using PXE? |
| 19:38.44 | youtah | why wouldn't this be the proper channel to discuss debian installations? |
| 19:43.32 | bregalad | can you install debian via tweet |
| 19:43.38 | bregalad | or via youtah? |
| 19:44.53 | youtah | or via your mom? |
| 19:45.03 | youtah | *ew, gross* |
| 19:45.09 | eightyeight | wildcat: yeah. i've installed debian via pxe both with preseed and fai many times |
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| 19:55.47 | wildcat | eightyeight: what would you recommend? (I'm targeting something easy to deploy with decent configuration over what is installed, especially when it comes to partitionning) |
| 20:31.11 | eightyeight | well, pxe just provides the boot |
| 20:31.21 | eightyeight | between preseed and fai, i would use fai |
| 20:31.26 | eightyeight | preseed is horrid |
| 20:34.52 | wildcat | allrighty, that's what I thought |
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| 22:42.13 | bregalad | ~napoleon |
| 22:42.14 | infobot | Just listen to your heart. That's what I do. |
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| 22:52.52 | Tene | http://sprunge.us/TiDV -- one of the reasons I hate debian distros. |
| 22:53.32 | bregalad | Tene: you hate debian because of a URL? |
| 22:53.55 | Tene | bregalad: Yes, that url, not the contents referenced by it. You're entirely right. Congrats. |
| 22:54.09 | bregalad | awesome! |
| 22:54.37 | Tene | You are the winner. You get the prize. |
| 22:55.30 | bregalad | prises the prize from Tene |
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| 23:09.07 | eightyeight | Tene: what's the problem with that paste? |
| 23:09.47 | bregalad | he should have used tape instead |
| 23:10.24 | eightyeight | Tene: was it the fact that percona-server-server-5.5 was possibly in a bad install state, and dpkg(8) fixed it? |
| 23:10.52 | eightyeight | or, the lack of verification on the 'iotop' package? |
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| 23:13.34 | wildcat | so, as there is some sysadmin here, https://github.com/tgouverneur/SPXOps/wiki |
| 23:13.48 | wildcat | this is a huge work in progress as I just published it over the weekend |
| 23:17.14 | eightyeight | interesting |
| 23:17.34 | eightyeight | so, is it a nagios replacement? |
| 23:17.38 | wildcat | nope nope nope :] |
| 23:17.55 | wildcat | basically, it serves as a server inventory software |
| 23:18.16 | eightyeight | hmm. so far, all i've seen are alerts and their configs |
| 23:18.16 | wildcat | and serve also as consistency-manager if I can call it that way |
| 23:18.18 | wildcat | basically |
| 23:18.38 | wildcat | you register a server, it goes on and index what it can find there |
| 23:18.49 | wildcat | for a solaris server, zpools, zfs, zones, stuff |
| 23:18.56 | wildcat | linux, KVM machines, etc.. |
| 23:19.26 | wildcat | I plan on adding some live tools as well to check the memory usage and those kind of stuff live on the portal, but that's another story |
| 23:19.37 | wildcat | then, you can define some checks |
| 23:19.53 | wildcat | if you go on the demo site, and hit Checks->List |
| 23:19.56 | wildcat | you can see some examples |
| 23:20.02 | wildcat | they are basically defined in LUA |
| 23:20.16 | wildcat | for example, you can check that zpool status are ONLINE (so nothing degraded) |
| 23:20.24 | wildcat | or that the ntp client is on sync |
| 23:20.34 | wildcat | those kind of stuff (that for example puppet can't check) |
| 23:20.42 | eightyeight | that seems very nagios to me |
| 23:20.58 | eightyeight | IE: what to check, the frequency, the ability to ack/silence the alert |
| 23:20.58 | wildcat | mmh in a way, but it doesn't intend as being a real monitoring replacement |
| 23:21.17 | wildcat | it's really more of a running-consistency check |
| 23:21.55 | wildcat | and it's really server-unix focused |
| 23:22.13 | bregalad | a nachos replacement? |
| 23:22.28 | wildcat | I mean, I started this thing because most of the companies I've been working for were managing their list of servers using dns zones :] |
| 23:23.22 | joshh | nachos would be a great name for a nagios fork/reboot |
| 23:23.39 | wildcat | indeed :] |
| 23:23.52 | bregalad | ~nacho |
| 23:23.52 | infobot | Do you remember when the people were shouting my name and I used my strength to rip my blouse? |
| 23:27.03 | Tene | eightyeight: One problem is that dpkg is far too willing to leave things in unconfigured and half-configured and otherwise problematic states, and the other problem is that apt didn't give me any indication that it was going to perform any operation on percona-server-server-5.5 |
| 23:27.57 | eightyeight | i see |
| 23:28.34 | joshh | do you know why it did? |
| 23:28.36 | Tene | With rpm, if I try to install a package without its dependencies present, rpm refuses to operate without a --force. With dpkg, if I install a package whose dependencies aren't present, it completes the operation without mentioning any problems, and then the next invocation of apt is much more exciting. |
| 23:29.14 | eightyeight | if you try to install a package without its dependencies present, apt-get(8) will resolve those for you from your configure repos |
| 23:29.32 | eightyeight | if it can't, it will exit unsucessfully, without performing any operations |
| 23:30.09 | Tene | eightyeight: If you're installing from a repo with apt-get. If you have a local package not yet present in a repo, you have to use dpkg to install it, because apt-get doesn't know how to install a local file. |
| 23:30.35 | eightyeight | sure. it's a two-step process: dpkg -i file.deb && apt-get install -f |
| 23:30.52 | bregalad | aptitude > apt-get |
| 23:31.05 | eightyeight | aptitude(8) can't install local .deb files either |
| 23:31.28 | Tene | Yep. I find that rather objectionable, since dpkg has everything it needs to know that dependencies aren't satisfied when you go to install it. |
| 23:31.39 | bregalad | neither can almost any command ever invented |
| 23:31.50 | Tene | bregalad: Yum can, though. |
| 23:31.55 | Tene | yum install /path/to/foo.rpm |
| 23:32.05 | bregalad | Tene: yum can install .deb files? :) |
| 23:32.12 | Tene | :) |
| 23:32.13 | eightyeight | the rationale is that dpkg(8) deals with the packages. apt(8) doesn't duplicate that functionality |
| 23:32.35 | bregalad | I also consider that a material weakness of aptitude |
| 23:32.38 | eightyeight | s/packages/local packages/ |
| 23:32.41 | Tene | eightyeight: Yes, and when dealing with the packages, I'd really prefer to have to explicitly ask for a broken system, rather than that being the default. |
| 23:32.42 | bregalad | but not too bad of a problem |
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| 23:33.37 | joshh | ya, seems like a minor issue where you should know the behavior and do what you need to accordingly |
| 23:34.15 | joshh | there probably are cases where someone wants to dpkg install something with no dependencies, though it seems reasonable to have that not work by default |
| 23:34.24 | eightyeight | gdebi(1) will also handle local .deb files, as well as resolving dependencies remotely, if you want a single-purpose command |
| 23:34.38 | joshh | but of all the things to complain about debian for, seems weak |
| 23:35.14 | eightyeight | i understand the complaint about restarting the percona server though. that's potentially disasterous |
| 23:35.23 | Tene | Generalizing my experience, on dpkg/apt systems, it's not uncommon at all to encounter "something went wrong in apt-get install, and the system is hosed, and I can't use apt-get again until after I grovel around with dpkg and purge some packages that way", whereas with yum, it's a lot more common to encounter "something went wrong with yum install, and the system was left in a consistent state, and I can still use yum" |
| 23:35.44 | eightyeight | it's funny, because i've had the opposite experience |
| 23:35.44 | joshh | restarting percona was terrible, but im having a hard time imagining why it happened |
| 23:35.58 | eightyeight | i've fought more with yum(8) and rpm(8) than apt(8) and dpkg(8) |
| 23:36.02 | joshh | same |
| 23:36.17 | joshh | especially since i haven't used yum since it was brand new and barely worked |
| 23:37.14 | Tene | The other big complaint I have is the assumption dpkg makes that you've got a user sitting at a keyboard waiting to interactively answer questions. We have to use a wrapper script around apt that sets multiple options just to try to stop that behaviour, and we've run into multiple misbehaving packages that ignore those options and still attempt to interactively ask questions. |
| 23:37.36 | Tene | That's a fine assumption for a carefully-maintained individual personal system, but a terrible assumption for a whole cluster. |
| 23:37.50 | eightyeight | i have found that behavior preferrable. i would rather be asked questions, than the package assume it knows what i want it to do |
| 23:37.56 | eightyeight | isn't a fan of auto-updates |
| 23:39.32 | Tene | is a big fan of programs doing whatever I tell them to do, rather than assuming I'd like them to stop and ask me more questions, even though there's no actual way for me to actually provide feedback because it's not an interactive session. |
| 23:40.09 | eightyeight | if it's pausing for interaction, how is in not interactive? |
| 23:40.44 | Tene | eightyeight: Because the install is being run by configuration management, not by a person typing at a keyboard. |
| 23:40.55 | Tene | So there's no human on the other end of the tty. |
| 23:41.00 | eightyeight | ah. i see. |
| 23:41.33 | Tene | Then I have to kill the misbehaving script, and then the package database is inconsistent and all apt operations fail until I purge the package. |
| 23:42.16 | eightyeight | # export DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive |
| 23:42.31 | joshh | whats your config management? |
| 23:42.38 | Tene | Yes, and also -o Dpkg::Options::=--force-confold |
| 23:42.44 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 23:42.53 | eightyeight | there are builtin configuration for non-interaction |
| 23:42.58 | Tene | And even then I've run into several packages which ignore DEBIAN_FRONTEND and still ask questions. |
| 23:43.08 | Tene | joshh: cfengine |
| 23:43.09 | eightyeight | have you reported a bug upstream? |
| 23:43.14 | joshh | yikes |
| 23:43.26 | Tene | eightyeight: I think I did for one of them; I stopped caring after that. |
| 23:45.05 | Tene | It took weeks for ubuntu to even accept a patch we provided for a PHP vulnerability that was being actively exploited; I just don't care enough to argue with them about more-trivial shit. |
| 23:46.09 | eightyeight | working with ubuntu package maintainers and developers is very problematic |
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| 23:46.29 | eightyeight | initially, it seemed that they were heavy into "community work" |
| 23:46.50 | eightyeight | then a paradigm shift happened with the CLA, and canonical started rejecting community patches |
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| 23:48.39 | Tene | But, my general experience has been that the whole debian family has an assumption of careful personal interactive care and attention for each special machine, and the Red Hat family has a general assumption of working on a whole cluster where you want things to do as they're told and expect conformity. I've seen this distinction described as pets vs cattle. |
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| 23:49.08 | Tene | You want a lot of special attention and care and individual treatment for the family dog. You don't want that for a whole herd of cattle. |
| 23:49.39 | joshh | debian can make a good pet, but a perfectly fine cow also |
| 23:50.31 | joshh | ive never seen an interactivity problem with package installs or upgrades happen with puppet or chef, fwiw |
| 23:50.58 | joshh | maybe cfengines apt/dpkg provider is dumber |
| 23:51.40 | Tene | joshh: We use our own that shells out to apt-get with those options set. |
| 23:52.07 | joshh | eh, switch to something not invented there, imo |
| 23:52.28 | Tene | Also it splits the install up into a separate install for every individual package, because there's no possible way to persuade apt-get to continue with an install if you specify even one package that doesn't exist in the repos. |
| 23:56.43 | joshh | i think it gets called separately for each package resource in most config management systems |
| 23:57.05 | joshh | not sure though, but i also don't have repo/missing package issues often |
| 23:59.36 | Tene | We had several cases where there was a typo in a package name or an error in which hosts a repo was deployed to, which resulted in all package installs failing until the bug was fixed. Ideally we don't have bugs, but given that it's happened to us several times, that's a better failure case. |
| 23:59.57 | Tene | It's not often, but once or twice a year maybe? |