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| 06:14.34 | levi1 | Man, supposed to be writing unit tests for this protocol implementation; instead I wrote an entirely new parser for it. |
| 06:29.37 | RyanE | heh |
| 06:29.40 | RyanE | way more fun |
| 06:30.45 | levi | And my parser totally kicks ass over the current one. |
| 06:31.24 | levi | For one, it's not a single 1600 line function. |
| 06:32.37 | RyanE | blergh. 1600 line function. |
| 06:40.11 | levi | With lots of copy/paste repetition and nested switch statements. |
| 06:41.25 | levi | It does *work*, at least as far as we can tell, but it's not plainly obvious that it does. |
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| 14:57.24 | jxqz | ~lart 1600 line functions |
| 14:57.24 | infobot | throws 1600 line functions's poor little doggy off a cliff |
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| 16:25.27 | jxqz | ~lart 5000 line functions |
| 16:25.27 | infobot | turns 5000 line functions into a lifesized tux doll |
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| 16:53.42 | fadein | just now reading about Microsoft's OneGet - WTF is Chocolatey? |
| 16:54.27 | fadein | and how long has it been around? |
| 16:55.30 | fadein | wow, between systemd and OneGet, Linux and Windows are really meeting in the middle |
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| 17:00.42 | programmerq | fadein: chacolatey is a package manager. I heard of it because I saw it as an optional dependency in a chef community cookbook |
| 17:01.00 | programmerq | looked it up, and saw it was package management. it kind of works. I tried it out just to see it. |
| 17:01.04 | programmerq | bootstrapping it is awful. |
| 17:04.36 | levi | I didn't find it very hard to set up. |
| 17:06.03 | eightyeight | microsoft needs to seriously work on their commandline |
| 17:06.11 | levi | How so? |
| 17:06.17 | eightyeight | while powershell is great, the terminal emulator is horrid |
| 17:06.53 | levi | Ah, yeah. Well, you can always grab a different one via chocolatey. |
| 17:08.41 | levi | I also don't see systemd as very Windows-like. Maybe a bit more OS-X like? But it's *more* Unixy in some ways (like going back to an inetd-style service starting model) and not particularly more like Windows in any way other than "more coherent". |
| 17:09.34 | jxqz | the problem with systemd is not whether it's unixy or not, as if that really matters |
| 17:10.00 | levi | I contend that Linux has never been particularly "Unixy", especially in the configurations used by most people. |
| 17:10.06 | programmerq | levi: the problem I had is that following their directions on a fresh windows 7 install plain didn't work. |
| 17:10.16 | tomstokes | levi: How so? |
| 17:10.19 | programmerq | it wasn't super obvious that I had to manually install the right .net runtime |
| 17:10.22 | programmerq | other than that, it was okay. |
| 17:10.29 | programmerq | they may have improved docs since then. |
| 17:11.09 | jxqz | the problem is the way it's being subverted into distros by making parts of itself required dependencies for wholly unrelated projects |
| 17:11.19 | levi | tomstokes: To me, "Unixy" takes you in the direction of Plan 9 rather than KDE, Gnome, Emacs, etc. |
| 17:11.25 | jxqz | and then if you require a piece of systemd, then you need the whole thing |
| 17:12.35 | levi | jxqz: That's an absurdly silly complaint. |
| 17:12.47 | jxqz | levi: that's an absurdly silly nick |
| 17:17.28 | levi | tomstokes: Linux has always been about providing an efficient kernel with a roughly GNU-shaped userland, not about any particular "philosophy" other than "what Linus and the people contributing to it like". |
| 17:19.06 | eightyeight | as someone who has administered HPUX and Solaris for a living, GNU/Linux really marches to its own beat |
| 17:19.13 | levi | Many may claim to follow "Unix philosophy", but the ones that actually do the development work don't seem particularly motivated by that. |
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| 17:27.32 | jxqz | levi: why do you think systemd being subversive is silly? |
| 17:27.37 | jxqz | or absurdist? |
| 17:27.52 | jxqz | levi just doesn't get the absurd, I'm guessing |
| 17:30.23 | RyanE | or maybe he just has a real job, so he's too busy to reply. :) |
| 17:31.03 | levi | Inventing conspiracy theories for things that can be more easily explained by more mundane motivations is silly. |
| 17:32.13 | unum | Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. |
| 17:32.32 | jxqz | darn |
| 17:32.34 | levi | rolls eyes. |
| 17:32.35 | unum | ok a little different, but still a favorite quote of mine |
| 17:32.48 | RyanE | rickrolls eyes |
| 17:33.02 | unum | I didn't mean to imply I think systemd is stupid |
| 17:33.09 | unum | I know very little about it |
| 17:33.10 | levi | Well, I do agree with the principle, but I don't think "stupidity" is the factor here. |
| 17:34.16 | levi | The fuss over systemd reminds me a lot of the Linus vs. Tanenbaum kernel design debates. |
| 17:34.32 | jxqz | levi: I'm sorry that your opinion is informed by conspiracy, but you cannot argue the fact of the obscure dependency phenomenon |
| 17:35.13 | jxqz | but whatever, I don't really care that much |
| 17:35.37 | levi | What "obscure dependency phenomenon"? |
| 17:35.51 | jxqz | like gimp, for example |
| 17:36.25 | jxqz | why does an image editing program care what init system is being used? |
| 17:36.46 | levi | Surely systemd has dependencies, but they're hardly obscure or difficult to find non-conspiritorial explanations for. |
| 17:37.26 | jxqz | yes, and you're claiming I have found conspiritorial explanations? |
| 17:37.52 | levi | No, you've been claiming such nonsense. |
| 17:38.05 | jxqz | I claim no nonsense |
| 17:38.12 | RyanE | 11:35 < jxqz> but whatever, I don't really care that much |
| 17:38.16 | RyanE | apparently |
| 17:38.25 | jxqz | the nonsense which you see is your own chimera |
| 17:38.41 | levi | Gimp does not require systemd. That's one piece of nonsense. |
| 17:38.56 | RyanE | do I have to start singing "Let it Go" at the top of my lungs? |
| 17:39.03 | jxqz | yeah, I don't care and shouldn't care about levi's opinion of either me or systemd, so whatever |
| 17:39.35 | jxqz | levi: a demonstrably false claim |
| 17:39.43 | jxqz | absconds |
| 17:39.49 | jxqz | ~napoleon |
| 17:39.49 | infobot | It's a liger, bred for its skills in magic. |
| 17:42.41 | levi | jxqz: Well, come back if you're actually interested in discussing how large masses of interdependent software actually evolve instead of just making vague claims about how systemd is some subversive force. |
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| 17:48.15 | jxqz | calendars a future confrontation with levi about his proclivity for absurdist avoidance and vague phobia |
| 17:53.11 | eightyeight | grabs the popcorn |
| 17:53.57 | jxqz | grabs eightyeight's popcorn |
| 17:54.15 | eightyeight | kicks jxqz in the shins |
| 17:54.43 | levi | Go bother someone else, jxqz. |
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| 17:55.29 | jxqz | bothers RyanE |
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| 18:04.05 | jxqz | levi: sorry for giving up so easily |
| 18:04.13 | jxqz | I'm not as good at arguing as I used to be |
| 18:04.31 | jxqz | we can keep arguing if you want or whatever |
| 18:04.54 | jxqz | C > ML |
| 18:05.45 | jxqz | vim > emacs |
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| 18:20.20 | unum | seems like we need a good political debate to prep for tuesday ;) |
| 18:21.46 | youtah | Communists are all jerks |
| 18:21.56 | unum | some of my best friends are communists |
| 18:21.56 | youtah | did I do it right unum? |
| 18:22.11 | unum | youtah: that seems about right |
| 18:22.14 | youtah | Your friends are bacon haters?!?!??! |
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| 18:22.51 | unum | no you're thinking of mormons, my friends like to play board games |
| 18:23.25 | unum | one more night of walking |
| 18:23.28 | unum | then one more day.... |
| 18:23.29 | youtah | I almost just shot Chocolate milk out my nose (I'm in Utah county) |
| 18:23.33 | unum | then a honk and wave |
| 18:23.38 | unum | then all that's left is the party |
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| 18:41.55 | youtah | http://www.boredpanda.com/halloween-foods/#post1 |
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| 18:55.59 | unum | youtah: those are great |
| 18:57.25 | youtah | I wanna do the worms one |
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| 19:59.29 | fungus | systemd includes a great init system. I like it very much. My concern with systemd is it's trend of replacing other subsystems with inferior (IMHO) implementations. E.g. syslog, fstab, udev, etc. |
| 20:03.05 | fungus | I do not blame Gnome for depending on systemd-logind, I blame systemd devs for making their tools so tightly coupled, as to cause conflicts with other stuff. |
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| 20:05.47 | jsmith | fungus: I can understand that... I honestly worried if I'd ever be able to live without syslog |
| 20:06.45 | jsmith | fungus: And, after a little bit of retraining my muscle memory, I found that the systemd journal worked for 99% of what I was using syslog for, and I found that it works just fine along-side syslog for that other 1% |
| 20:07.18 | fungus | agreed |
| 20:07.44 | fungus | but it "feels" wrong to have to run both journald and a syslog daemon. |
| 20:11.39 | jxqz | I think what the systemd devs are really after is making it so that daemons on people's systems are named '${daemon}d' |
| 20:11.54 | jxqz | to fulfill some evil plan |
| 20:13.07 | fungus | Nah, they aren't evil. They are just conceited. "Systemd can do better in every way" |
| 20:13.48 | eightyeight | my only complaint, thus far, has been the slow throughput of journald |
| 20:14.09 | eightyeight | rsyslog in my testing is much more performant, when reading large logs |
| 20:14.28 | eightyeight | however, installing new init configs for some one-off daemon is stupid simple |
| 20:14.31 | fungus | agreed |
| 20:14.43 | eightyeight | no more scowering the internets for systemv init script templates |
| 20:14.47 | eightyeight | win |
| 20:15.09 | fungus | journald seems optimized for quick writes, which seems the right way, but not always. |
| 20:15.24 | fozzmoo | fstab isn't replaced by systemd. systemd still treats /etc/fstab as authoritative. |
| 20:15.47 | fozzmoo | And everything else (journald, logind, etc.) are optional. |
| 20:15.53 | eightyeight | learning the new tools is somewhat painful, but that's only because i'm not familiar with what's available |
| 20:16.16 | eightyeight | i've decided i like the sntp-client functionality |
| 20:16.27 | fozzmoo | But I can completely understand people's leariness given systemd's need to bury tenticles into seemingly every aspect of Linux |
| 20:16.32 | fungus | fozzmoo, interesting. the swap and mount Unit files are just another option? |
| 20:17.33 | eightyeight | while we're talking unix, does anyone know how to do something like this with a single gnu grep(1) instead of piping twice?: http://ae7.st/p/04i |
| 20:17.41 | fozzmoo | fungus: See the systemd.mount man page. |
| 20:17.51 | eightyeight | i can do this simply enough with gnu awk(1): |
| 20:18.07 | fozzmoo | "Mounts listed in /etc/fstab will be converted into native units dynamically at boot and when the configuration of the system manager is reloaded." |
| 20:18.12 | eightyeight | $ gpglist $KEYID | awk '/User ID not found/ {print gensub(/^.*([A-F0-9]{16}).*$/,"\\1","g")}' |
| 20:18.32 | eightyeight | just curious. seems like the following should work, but it doesn't: |
| 20:18.41 | eightyeight | $ gpglist $KEYID | grep -oe '[A-F0-9]{16}' -e 'User ID not found' |
| 20:18.41 | fungus | fozzmoo, thanks. sounds interesting. |
| 20:18.46 | eightyeight | User ID not found |
| 20:19.21 | fungus | the -o option to grep applies to all patterns passed, that's the problem with that part. |
| 20:19.47 | eightyeight | and it doesn't matter which pattern is first either. it always selects the last match |
| 20:20.11 | eightyeight | i don't mind doing it with awk(1), just curious if grep(1) can do it in a single invocation |
| 20:20.35 | fungus | I think awk or sed are your best bets. |
| 20:21.47 | fungus | sed -r '/User ID not found/!d;s/.*([A-F0-9]+)/\1/' |
| 20:21.49 | fungus | or something like that |
| 20:22.14 | eightyeight | but, but, but grep(1) is like 20x faster, and i want all the wasted milliseconds of my life back! |
| 20:27.38 | fungus | hehe |
| 20:34.07 | jxqz | I'm not necessarily for or against systemd myself other than the reservations I mentioned earlier and that it will be awesome if, since systemd is taking over so much low level stuff for so many distros that they will fix many of the annoying things about basic linux system functionality that were created in the beginning by some hacker writing a quick fix or having not thought the matter through and exist now |
| 20:34.08 | jxqz | by tradition |
| 20:34.49 | jxqz | that they will do that without introducing so many new annoyances such that the net annoyance decreases |
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| 23:39.23 | shalkie | Anyone going to be watching Game 7? |
| 23:48.03 | joshh_ | me |
| 23:52.23 | shalkie | joshh_: Backing any particular team or just in it for the fun? |
| 23:52.33 | joshh_ | giants |
| 23:53.24 | joshh_ | hopefully the non-bumgarner starter doesn't blow it |