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| 02:59.53 | jlp_znc | back in California once again. looks like I missed all the fun conversations last week. ahh, well. |
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| 14:52.29 | Tod-Work | levi, I thought of you: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~srk31/blog/2014/10/07/ |
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| 15:57.33 | levi | Tod-Work: Interesting article! |
| 15:58.13 | levi | I, too, am frustrated at people over-selling type systems despite my interest in them. |
| 15:58.54 | Tod-Work | it's definitely a thing I think could be better understood in the marketing we do =c) |
| 16:00.40 | levi | Ooh, his strangeloop talk sounds interesting. |
| 16:01.51 | levi | I've been looking into descendants of Dennis Ritchie's 'streams' API for doing stream transformations. |
| 16:03.01 | levi | It got complicated into STREAMS in SVR4, and rejected by Linux, but re-implemented in Plan9 and some other places, like the x-kernel. |
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| 16:11.57 | levi | BTW, anyone who's interested in network protocol implementation at all, or low-level systems programming with data streams, should look at the x-kernel. |
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| 16:13.53 | levi | http://www.cs.arizona.edu/projects/xkernel/ |
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| 16:28.46 | Tod-Work | It's getting started article is 404'ed =c( |
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| 16:38.30 | levi | The postscript files all work. |
| 16:39.33 | levi | I'd look at the first research paper for an overview, and then the tutorial and Message Library Design Notes. |
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| 17:28.55 | eightyeight | i wonder how many of those ping timeouts, are due to belkin |
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| 17:31.12 | levi | What's up with belkin? |
| 17:34.39 | eightyeight | they pushed a router update overnight, which has caused degraded performance |
| 17:34.52 | levi | Whoops. |
| 17:35.08 | eightyeight | it now takes several seconds for the router to ping heartbeat.belkin.com, which is causing outages on all belkin and linksys models |
| 17:35.22 | eightyeight | ISP tech support is, uhm, busy right now. :) |
| 17:35.28 | eightyeight | http://www.myce.com/news/belkin-router-users-worldwide-unable-to-connect-to-the-internet-73019/ |
| 17:35.41 | levi | Firmware updates are hard. |
| 17:36.03 | eightyeight | i'd be curious to see how much SMB revenue is lost as a result |
| 17:36.17 | levi | Apple just flubbed one, too, IIRC. |
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| 17:42.53 | eightyeight | it does bring up an interesting concept of an internet kill switch though |
| 17:43.12 | eightyeight | the consumer router manufacturers hold a lot of power with automatic updates, like this |
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| 17:49.01 | levi | Yeah, no kidding. I wasn't aware that they actually *auto*-updated. |
| 17:49.26 | levi | I don't think my Netgear at home auto-updates. It's been telling me there's an update available for ages. |
| 17:49.52 | eightyeight | part of "self-healing" |
| 17:50.20 | jlp_znc | DD-WRT for the win |
| 17:50.39 | levi | Heh, self-"healing" more like. |
| 17:51.28 | eightyeight | should be interesting to see how they propose a fix, with the routers offline |
| 17:51.48 | eightyeight | getting updates through another channel doesn't instill a lot of confidence in your product |
| 17:53.52 | levi | Well, seems like another channel is going to be required. Probably a program that you install on a PC that masquerades as the update server. |
| 17:54.16 | levi | Plug the WAN port to your PC, run it, and there you go. |
| 17:54.56 | eightyeight | agreed |
| 17:55.55 | levi | Although if the WAN port can't get a remote update, maybe it can't get one from your PC either. |
| 17:55.57 | tristanrhodes_ | wow, I wonder how to deal with millions of bricks (if it can't be fixed remotely). has this happened before? |
| 17:56.45 | tristanrhodes_ | they might just ship out replacement products. cost of product + shipping could be less than supporting a work-around |
| 17:57.10 | levi | Yeah, that seems to be a likely scenario, actually. |
| 17:57.53 | tristanrhodes_ | especially because they need to "heal" their relationship with the customer. |
| 17:58.12 | joshh | wow, what idiots |
| 17:58.21 | levi | It's probably hard to budget enough for proper QA in consumer-level devices. |
| 17:58.58 | tristanrhodes_ | someone forgot a semi-colon, and now it cost them $100 million (made-up number) |
| 17:59.02 | eightyeight | i would not want to be the guy that approved the push for that update |
| 17:59.09 | jlp_znc | I was thinking that the only solution would be to ship out new product. |
| 17:59.36 | levi | There's strong price pressure and the QA cost scales at some function of volume of product shipped. |
| 17:59.47 | tristanrhodes_ | but they may not have that much in inventory. some VPs are learning about it and saying, "turn the factories to 200%!" |
| 18:00.16 | jlp_znc | they can probably recover many of the "failed" routers, fix them in house, and resell them. |
| 18:00.31 | tristanrhodes_ | https://belkininternationalinc.statuspage.io/ |
| 18:00.33 | tristanrhodes_ | update provided |
| 18:00.40 | jlp_znc | (i.e., they mail you a new one with a label to ship the old one back) |
| 18:01.00 | tristanrhodes_ | "use google for DNS on your end-devices" |
| 18:01.22 | tristanrhodes_ | they still might be able to do a remote firmware upgrade, if only DNS was broke... maybe |
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| 18:01.36 | eightyeight | looks like .... |
| 18:01.40 | levi | Heh, gotta wonder how they managed to break DNS. |
| 18:01.40 | eightyeight | tristanrhodes_ beat me to it |
| 18:01.56 | levi | Sounds fishy to me. |
| 18:02.32 | joshh | eightyeight: is xm's support slammed right now? |
| 18:02.39 | eightyeight | yeah. we're busy. :) |
| 18:02.48 | tristanrhodes_ | jlp_znc, good point, a local firmware flash in the factory, and sell them as "refurbished" |
| 18:03.42 | joshh | hold message: "call belkin instead, or head to best buy for a new linksys" |
| 18:04.02 | levi | Nah, put them in the RMA-send queue once they've passed the QA tests. |
| 18:04.14 | eightyeight | has never been a fan of auto updates, even for servers |
| 18:04.31 | eightyeight | although, a manual update here would have put me in the same boat |
| 18:05.17 | levi | Well, ideally you don't manually update your whole device fleet at once, you do a trial run first to check for problems. |
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| 18:05.33 | eightyeight | at home, my whole device fleet is a single device. :) |
| 18:05.45 | levi | But if you've just got one, that doesn't help much, though you can do a google search to see if anyone else has had problems with it first. :) |
| 18:05.52 | eightyeight | indeed |
| 18:06.19 | joshh | most people really affected will be far too non-technical to even know what their belkin device does |
| 18:06.21 | eightyeight | and auto updates will generally mean i'm lazy pushing the update, so the chances of me manually updating the same time the autoupdate bricks the device, isslim |
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| 18:08.14 | levi | Ah, gotta love password expiration plus failed login account lockout policies. |
| 18:09.29 | levi | This was really bad when the web proxy required a login linked to the same auth service. |
| 18:11.25 | romanovic | has lockout policy problems every time his password expires/is changed |
| 18:12.28 | romanovic | today, in fact. something with my old credentials somewhere keeps trying to authenticate, and my active directory account keeps getting locked out |
| 18:12.32 | levi | It's sort of an emergent failure behavior from the concurrence of two reasonable-seeming security policies. |
| 18:14.12 | eightyeight | the problem with password rotation policies, are that it masks other various threats that could be taking place |
| 18:14.34 | eightyeight | IE: if your password was compromised, a rotation just means using the same channel to compromise it again |
| 18:15.12 | levi | Yeah. |
| 18:15.12 | eightyeight | changing your password really isn't reducing any viable threat to your infrastructure |
| 18:16.05 | levi | There needs to be some "Current Security Best Practices for Dummies" that all admins are required to learn and subscribe to updates to. |
| 18:16.24 | eightyeight | of course, the IT team should be proactive in addressing the various threats, and doing all they can to close them, or minimize their risk |
| 18:16.49 | eightyeight | but yeah. password rotation policies are somewhat silly, imo |
| 18:17.22 | levi | Password rotation policies are worse than somewhat silly, imo. |
| 18:17.47 | eightyeight | another problem with them, is the lack to actually increase the entropy behind the new password |
| 18:18.08 | eightyeight | if a user on the team chooses a weak password, rotating the password means picking a new weak password |
| 18:18.23 | eightyeight | anyway, i know i'm preaching to the choir. :) |
| 18:18.26 | levi | Right, frequent rotation encourages terrible passwords. |
| 18:18.42 | levi | And also encourages writing them down on a sticky note on your monitor. |
| 18:18.45 | joshh | last time i saw a password rotation, everyone was whispering about how they were just adding a 1 to the end of their old one |
| 18:19.28 | eightyeight | yeah |
| 18:23.49 | levi | A quick poll of my coworkers reveals we're all adding 1 to our previous passwords. ;) |
| 18:25.16 | joshh | i at least added a couple special characters |
| 18:25.55 | joshh | passwords in general aren't the greatest thing anymore |
| 18:26.14 | levi | I use a really terrible password and avoid using IT-provided services as much as possible. |
| 18:27.01 | joshh | i would love to use a password manager with everything random, but im not satisfied with any that are nice and polished on mac/linux/android, and easy to use and copy/paste on phones, etc |
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| 18:27.46 | joshh | there's always something that needs it to be typed into and so it needs to be short and memorizable |
| 18:27.52 | levi | I use much better passwords for personal stuff that I actually use, but I hate passwords in general. |
| 18:28.16 | romanovic | also frightening - when you change multiple characters on a password, and the system tells you it is too similar to your last password |
| 18:28.31 | joshh | indeed |
| 18:29.10 | levi | I hate the arbitrariness of what various places restrict password formats to. |
| 18:30.03 | romanovic | if it can check password similarity, that's nearly as bad as storing it plain-text somewhere |
| 18:30.21 | joshh | something i was signing up for the other day kept telling me my password didn't meet their rules, even after quadruple checking. i ended up making the capitals lowercase and then it worked |
| 18:30.36 | levi | romanovic: Well, the "change password" form generally requires you to manually input both old and new. |
| 18:31.07 | levi | romanovic: So it doesn't necessarily imply they're storing the password in a form where they could calculate similarity. |
| 18:32.44 | romanovic | levi: you're right, but i see it occasionally on "forgot password" password reset forms as well |
| 18:33.03 | levi | Yeah, that's troubling. |
| 18:33.11 | joshh | of course, plenty of places just email you your plaintext password as well |
| 18:33.22 | joshh | when you forget |
| 18:33.35 | levi | Thus you should never use the same password in more than one place. :/ |
| 18:33.36 | joshh | though usually for non-serious things |
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| 18:50.59 | eightyeight | ~blame obama |
| 18:50.59 | infobot | ACTION blames obama (and Canada) for all the evil in the world |
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| 19:42.51 | Jayce | PCI 8.2.3 and 8.2.4 <-- blame those for most poor password requirements |
| 19:43.24 | Jayce | well, and 8.2.5 |
| 19:44.18 | eightyeight | if you're going to saintcon, i'll be giving two presentations on passwords |
| 19:44.33 | eightyeight | one regarding the mathematics of passwords, and the other covering multi-factor auth |
| 19:48.17 | jalbretsen | Jayce: Preaching to the choir. I thought with 3.0 they would have raised the number, but nooooooo |
| 19:48.43 | Jayce | of course not |
| 19:49.01 | Jayce | yeah, several of us will be there.. especially since one of our guys helps run it |
| 19:49.49 | jalbretsen | I found a lot of what I do is actually better than PCI. SSH key only logins and better password requirements |
| 19:50.17 | Jayce | jalbretsen: yeah, even the PCI group says they aren't "best practice" just "minimum acceptable" |
| 19:50.27 | Jayce | but then they do some things totally wrong |
| 19:50.31 | jalbretsen | indeed. |
| 19:51.05 | Jayce | for instance a couple other ISA's are trying to claim that PCI 3 now means we have to run "antivirus" software on all our linux and mac boxes... all the time... |
| 19:51.33 | Jayce | I have to keep slapping their hands, but I have other work to do so they find time to try and push these requirements |
| 19:51.45 | jlp_znc | STIG requried that years ago. |
| 19:51.55 | jlp_znc | well, it required that antivirus software be "installed" |
| 19:52.01 | jalbretsen | I can't convince people that the login password to their Mac and the password to their email is NOT the same thing. I have no hope making them use 2-factor anything |
| 19:54.32 | jalbretsen | We have antivirus installed on our boxes thanks to the auditor years ago. Then last year they insisted I needed to have some sort of management console for it. I said show me where that is required. They could not. But continued to insist I needed it. So in our operational procedure docs, I now say Salt Stack acts as our AntiVirus management console. |
| 19:56.52 | Oberon4278 | I just got an honest-to-god, zero-irony, response from a developer saying to RTFM. |
| 19:57.13 | Oberon4278 | "Please review the documentation, especially the Data Integrity Guide section on Shadowing." |
| 19:58.18 | Oberon4278 | (Yes, I did read the documentation, and no, the feature I'm requesting is not supported.) |
| 19:58.43 | jalbretsen | Read it again, maybe it changed in the last 5 minutes |
| 19:58.53 | *** join/#utah youtah (~youtah@69-195-66-178.unifiedlayer.com) |
| 19:59.26 | youtah | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:59.48 | fozzmoo | It wasn't me... it was my dog. |
| 19:59.58 | fozzmoo | He really enjoyed it last time. |
| 20:00.10 | Jayce | the dog that died from the algae? |
| 20:00.28 | youtah | Yes |
| 20:00.34 | youtah | too much licking |
| 20:00.49 | jlp_znc | jalbretsen: nice |
| 20:01.02 | jlp_znc | youtah: not nice |
| 20:01.31 | youtah | eh? |
| 20:02.27 | jlp_znc | so, my wife told me I was over the hill today. I responded "I prefer to think of myself as 'on top of the hill'." |
| 20:02.34 | Oberon4278 | You just turned 40? |
| 20:02.37 | jlp_znc | 50 |
| 20:02.48 | jlp_znc | my hill must be taller than yours, Oberon4278 |
| 20:02.54 | youtah | lol |
| 20:02.59 | youtah | I've always heard it was 40 |
| 20:03.10 | youtah | Mine was 23 |
| 20:03.11 | Oberon4278 | Inflation. |
| 20:03.24 | jlp_znc | :-) |
| 20:04.05 | fozzmoo | If you define "over the hill" as when too many parts of your body don't work like they're supposed to, I was over the hill at age 5. |
| 20:04.43 | jalbretsen | I'm almost 39 and can run further than I could in high school. What does that make me? |
| 20:05.11 | asoc | jalbretsen: running down hill is easier |
| 20:05.16 | asoc | you are over the hill |
| 20:05.20 | fozzmoo | hee. |
| 20:06.27 | jalbretsen | The Doctor is now played by an actor older than me again, I'm not counting myself out yet. |
| 20:06.53 | jlp_znc | hmmm, I just got an e-mail from marriott rewards... "Think You Know Football? Win a trip to the 2015 Pro Bowl ..." my answer, "no, I don't think I know football... or even Know Football. |
| 20:07.10 | jalbretsen | Pro Bowl is boring anyway |
| 20:07.25 | jalbretsen | No one wants to get hurt, so they don't even try |
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| 20:09.54 | jlp_znc | isn't the pro bowl where a bunch of professional bowlers get together to try and get perfect games? |
| 20:10.08 | jlp_znc | I'm not sure what that has to do with football |
| 20:10.14 | jlp_znc | have you ever kicked a bowling ball? |
| 20:10.16 | jlp_znc | ow |
| 20:11.48 | asoc | Probably only something that you would be able to do twice |
| 20:12.04 | youtah | you guys ever see my moon? |
| 20:12.05 | jlp_znc | http://youtu.be/oNxLxTZHKM8 |
| 20:12.10 | jlp_znc | youtah: pass |
| 20:12.15 | youtah | lol |
| 20:12.44 | youtah | I was out with the former President of SLAS practicing taking photos of the moon for the Blood Moon coming up |
| 20:12.53 | youtah | I will be sleeping in my car tonight in the west desert |
| 20:12.59 | youtah | in prep to take photos at 4:30am |
| 20:13.11 | youtah | http://www.jeffmcgrathphotography.com/Landscape/Astrophotography/i-VQsZrBp/A |
| 20:16.01 | jalbretsen | youtah - Is one of those a pic of the annular eclipse a couple of years ago? |
| 20:16.23 | tristanrhodes_ | jlp_znc, I thought you were going to turn that Marriot email into "I don't know if I will be around in 2015, that is how old I am!" |
| 20:16.25 | youtah | Yes |
| 20:16.30 | youtah | jalbretsen, that was in Kanarraville |
| 20:17.19 | jalbretsen | nice. I happened to be in a parking lot in Cedar City when that happened. Had a great view of it. |
| 20:17.35 | youtah | I was there shooting for the UofU Newspaper |
| 20:18.01 | youtah | right along side some TV station from Japan, Reuters, SL Tribune, CNN and AP |
| 20:18.11 | jalbretsen | just a hobby, or are you a Physics / Astronomy major at the U? |
| 20:18.57 | youtah | I would classify myself as a semi pro photographer (it's not my primary source of income) |
| 20:19.22 | youtah | I am studying mass comm new media, and have TWO and a half classes left |
| 20:22.03 | jalbretsen | ah. |
| 20:24.12 | levi | Jayce: You keep using TLAs like 'PCI' and 'ISA' and they clearly don't mean what they're supposed to! :P |
| 20:26.14 | Jayce | heh, you're too stuck in your world :-p |
| 20:26.25 | levi | I.e. Perpheral Component Interconnect and Instruction Set Architecture, or perhaps Industry Standard Architecture if you were talking about really old PC busses. :P |
| 20:26.33 | Oberon4278 | TLAs? |
| 20:26.35 | Jayce | PCI - https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/ |
| 20:26.38 | Oberon4278 | something-level acronyms? |
| 20:26.45 | levi | Three Letter Acronyms. :) |
| 20:26.48 | youtah | TLA's!!! |
| 20:26.49 | Jayce | what you have to pass to process credit cards |
| 20:26.50 | youtah | I love those |
| 20:27.16 | Oberon4278 | ahh |
| 20:27.18 | Jayce | ISA = Internal Security Assesor |
| 20:27.23 | youtah | having worked previously at a gov defense contractor, you get used to TLAs and SLAs |
| 20:27.29 | Oberon4278 | SLA? |
| 20:27.33 | Oberon4278 | Several Letter? |
| 20:27.34 | Jayce | eg somebody who paid a lot of money to be "certified" for a year to sign off on internal PCI audits |
| 20:27.37 | youtah | Sixteen |
| 20:27.48 | Jayce | vs paying even more money for a QSA (and external company) to do the same |
| 20:27.52 | Oberon4278 | I can't say as how I've seen a sixteen letter acronym before. |
| 20:27.53 | jxqz | http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/10/06/1837237/lennart-poettering-open-source-community-quite-a-sick-place-to-be-in |
| 20:27.59 | levi | I don't actually deal much with ISA busses these days... they're uncommon in small embedded SoCs. |
| 20:28.06 | levi | Er, PCI busses I mean. |
| 20:28.18 | Jayce | yeah, it's all EISA :) |
| 20:28.18 | Oberon4278 | Longest one I can recall off the top of my head is CJSOTF-AP, which (hang on while I count) is eight, unless I forgot how to number. |
| 20:28.33 | Jayce | basically, if you process cards, you have to do PCI audits each year |
| 20:28.58 | fozzmoo | gets certified as a VLB+ auditor. |
| 20:29.04 | levi | Mostly they're some proprietary bus and everything's memory-mapped, so it doesn't make a programmatic difference anyway. |
| 20:29.18 | jxqz | all I can say is that I'm glad I'm on gentoo where I can still make choices about which crap to leave out |
| 20:31.09 | levi | jxqz: I'm not sure what the article you linked to has to do with gentoo and leaving software out. |
| 20:31.57 | jxqz | it's a rant by the guy who brought us avahi, pulse, NetWorkManaGer, and SystemD |
| 20:32.16 | levi | Indeed. |
| 20:32.31 | jxqz | crap, mostly |
| 20:32.36 | levi | No, not crap. |
| 20:32.45 | jxqz | yes, crap |
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| 20:33.16 | jxqz | bad documentation, strategic dependency grandfathering into all distros |
| 20:33.40 | levi | "strategic dependency grandfathering"? Seriously? |
| 20:33.53 | jxqz | levi: have you ever dealt with systemd? |
| 20:34.08 | levi | Yes, I have dealt with all of the above. |
| 20:34.10 | jxqz | not as a "user" |
| 20:34.14 | levi | Yes. |
| 20:34.45 | levi | I've delved deep into the guts of pulseaudio, not so deeply into the others. |
| 20:34.53 | jxqz | well, all I can say is that my experience with all of those packages has been frustrating and annoying |
| 20:35.14 | jxqz | so it's interesting they all come from the same guy |
| 20:35.26 | jxqz | begrudging, even |
| 20:35.42 | levi | I can't say my experiences have been without frustration, but then I've had quite a bit *more* frustration with other solutions. |
| 20:36.06 | levi | There are no "frustration-free" tools in those spaces. |
| 20:37.20 | levi | It's notable because he targets troublesome areas that are typically full of difficult issues. |
| 20:38.24 | levi | His solutions tend to be a bit opinionated, but they also tend to address a lot of the real problems that exist in their spaces that are ignored by other "solutions". |
| 20:39.26 | youtah | flings nacho cheese at Jayce |
| 20:39.41 | levi | They're adopted because they solve real problems relatively well, not because of "strategic dependency grandfathering." |
| 20:40.04 | levi | If you find other solutions for those problems and you're happy with them, I'm happy for you. |
| 20:40.16 | jxqz | they're adopted because so many packages depend on them that distros cannot afford to not adopt them |
| 20:40.19 | youtah | PEOPLE OF THE IRC! tvc123 HASN'T SEEN BREAKING BAD YET! |
| 20:40.21 | jxqz | at least in the systemd case |
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| 20:40.46 | levi | jxqz: Yeah, go ahead and keep your head in the sand then. |
| 20:41.01 | tvc123 | youtah: yes I know ... I have a problem |
| 20:41.16 | jxqz | levi: I'm sure there's dispute as to which of us is sand-encased |
| 20:41.44 | jxqz | basically if you want to feature gnome3, you have to go systemd |
| 20:41.51 | fadein | systemd: "you're already running a super-complicated kernel, so why not one moar thing?" |
| 20:42.26 | jxqz | that's not a community philosophy |
| 20:42.43 | levi | "community philosophy?!" |
| 20:42.54 | jxqz | yeah |
| 20:42.56 | eightyeight | i actually really like systmed |
| 20:42.58 | levi | Gimme a break. |
| 20:43.12 | eightyeight | from an administrator's perspective, it's a solid replacement over sysvinit and upstart |
| 20:43.20 | levi | Indeed, it is. |
| 20:43.53 | jxqz | sysvinit is probably crap and should be replaced, but the manner of replacement by systemd is suspect |
| 20:44.01 | eightyeight | it's actually a thought through init system |
| 20:44.22 | eightyeight | it addresses a lot of the shortcomings of sysvinit, such as dependency hell |
| 20:44.34 | jxqz | maybe it will eventually become a decent thing to work with, but for now all it can seem to do is frustrate and annoy |
| 20:44.42 | jxqz | same with networkmanager and pulse |
| 20:44.43 | eightyeight | it has a standardized high level administrative utility |
| 20:45.06 | levi | jxqz: You're going to continue to be frustrated by it, because that's what you expect. |
| 20:45.12 | eightyeight | i've only had one issue with systemd, and it was pebkac and rtfm |
| 20:45.42 | jxqz | levi: no, I'm not frustrated by choice, whatever you believe; my frustration is borne of experience |
| 20:45.44 | eightyeight | also, pulseaudio addresses a lot of audio issues alsa and oss don't |
| 20:46.03 | eightyeight | i've found smoother playback with pulse than alsa, personally |
| 20:46.11 | eightyeight | and network manager is a godsend for laptops |
| 20:46.24 | jxqz | and I don't necessarily believe unix is some mystically perfect idea of how a computer should work either |
| 20:47.03 | eightyeight | although, i wasn't aware that network manager was developed by lennart |
| 20:47.07 | levi | There's no such thing as "The UNIX Way" anymore. At least no real embodiment of it. So arguments from that area are dead to begin with. |
| 20:47.22 | jxqz | great, now levi thinks I'm dead |
| 20:47.49 | eightyeight | afaik, lennart has only developed systemd, pulseaudio, and avahi |
| 20:47.50 | levi | That's an odd reading of what I said. |
| 20:48.05 | jxqz | levi: you are a reason? |
| 20:48.07 | fadein | I've had problems with NetworkManager on RHEL 6.5 with VMs - when I deploy a template I have to boot into single user mode and edit some obscure text files to get rid of a MAC address; otherwise the VM hangs on boot |
| 20:48.30 | fadein | at least the Networkmanager config files are still text files... |
| 20:48.45 | jlp_znc | tristanrhodes_: well, you never know |
| 20:48.49 | levi | I had some issues with NetworkManager, but most of them have been resolved now. |
| 20:50.09 | tristanrhodes_ | jlp_znc, sorry if that was creepy, I often force humor |
| 20:50.14 | jxqz | that's all the argument I get? |
| 20:50.25 | jxqz | I was hoping for some real entertainment |
| 20:50.41 | jxqz | where's sjansen when you need him? |
| 20:51.19 | jxqz | linux sux, gnu hurd 4ever! |
| 20:51.27 | jxqz | frowns |
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| 20:53.11 | levi | Speaking of "The Unix Way", I have been reading up on how Dennis Ritchie's idea of a streams API for network drivers has evolved and influenced subsequent software. |
| 20:53.18 | jxqz | fadein: sendmail configs are m4 source code, that sounds like the winning way to go |
| 20:54.24 | fadein | jxqz: the best thing I can say for sendmail config is that it's better than a binary format |
| 20:54.35 | fadein | I'll even put it above XML |
| 20:55.22 | jxqz | even xml configs can be made to be not so bad, but binary configs can never be good by design |
| 20:56.09 | fadein | Having worked with XML parsers and XML data, I cannot come to the conclusion that XML is readable by either computers or humans |
| 20:57.12 | levi | I don't think binary vs. text is the most important issue in a configuration format. |
| 20:57.17 | jxqz | fadein: no! levi's trying to fragment us from arguing against his advocacy of evil binary configs by inciting arguments over lesser problems |
| 20:58.17 | jxqz | levi: I think that the human computer interface should be as close to natural language as is tenable, but no closer |
| 20:58.44 | fadein | I think that ASCII is a kind of binary format, and I therefore live in the best of both worlds |
| 20:58.49 | jxqz | binary whatever encoding isdefinitely not as close as is tenable |
| 20:59.37 | levi | I think "closeness to natural language" is probably not a primary classification axis for good configuration interfaces either. |
| 21:00.11 | jxqz | because even if your configuration is binary but you say that you have a tool to translate it for you |
| 21:00.25 | jxqz | I'm not sure where I'm going with that |
| 21:01.26 | levi | The point of a configuration interface is to expose the points of configuration in such a way that it's straightforward to express the desired range of configurability but difficult to express nonsensical configurations. |
| 21:04.28 | levi | M4-based configuration does okay on the expressiveness aspect, but is terrible at the nonsensical configuration aspect. |
| 21:06.30 | jxqz | yes, if I can be intellectually lazy but provocative enough, levi will rework my argument into a philosophical masterpiece |
| 21:06.34 | jxqz | without any work on my part |
| 21:06.56 | jxqz | I'm a genius |
| 21:07.09 | levi | Similarity of configuration mechanism across a whole system is also a desirable trait, although it is often in tension with the desirable traits for configuration of individual subsystems. |
| 21:08.12 | jxqz | levi: do you know that there are standards for that? |
| 21:08.35 | levi | It does not surprise me that there are standards for that. |
| 21:08.41 | jxqz | windows' WMI is an implementation of one of them |
| 21:08.58 | jxqz | but linux doesn't really have anything yet to compare |
| 21:09.08 | jxqz | the VM revolution is quicly changing all of that, though |
| 21:09.16 | jxqz | k |
| 21:10.00 | levi | I wouldn't say linux doesn't have anything that compares. It certainly doesn't have anything that compares in *standardization*, but there are a whole lot of tools for configuration automation. |
| 21:10.44 | levi | The Microsoft guys are starting to target Linux servers with their WMI framework as well. |
| 21:13.17 | levi | Linux has traditionally been weak at highly-integrated systems, whether they be desktop environments or whatever. The design space is huge, and also encompasses a vast number of variables. These are the "frustration points" that Pottering has targeted, incidentally. |
| 21:22.30 | levi | jxqz: If you look at CoreOS, you'll see they're relying heavily upon systemd and a component they developed called etcd, which is a distributed configuration management database that combines the discovery aspects of Avahi with centralized system configuration. |
| 21:24.38 | levi | When you get to this level of system integration, it becomes clear that it's the semantics of system configuration that become critical rather than issues of representation. |
| 21:27.22 | jlp_znc | tvc123: don't feel bad, I haven't seen breaking bad yet, either. I'm waiting to watch it with my wife. |
| 21:27.55 | jlp_znc | for the rest of you, wondering why I'm responding to statements from 30+ minutes ago, just go back to frothing at the mouth over systemd et al. |
| 21:30.38 | eightyeight | i've been keeping an eye on CoreOS and SmartOS |
| 21:30.40 | jlp_znc | personally, I thought sysV init scripts were good enough |
| 21:30.46 | eightyeight | exciting stuff coming out of the Illumos camps |
| 21:30.54 | jlp_znc | but I don't hate/despise systemd, and certainly not it's author |
| 21:31.36 | eightyeight | jlp_znc: then you can't have an opinion on the matter. :) |
| 21:31.51 | jlp_znc | I really don't |
| 21:31.52 | eightyeight | lennart |
| 21:31.54 | eightyeight | er |
| 21:31.57 | eightyeight | lennart-haters only please |
| 21:32.10 | levi | Script-based init has its strong points, kind of like Sendmail's M4-based configuration. ;) |
| 21:32.19 | jlp_znc | well, I wouldn't go that far |
| 21:32.34 | jlp_znc | having worked intensely with sendmail's m4 configs, I know that I like postfix much much better |
| 21:32.42 | eightyeight | from what i've read on debian-devel, irc, twitter, google+, and other forums, is most of the hate comes from "change" |
| 21:32.50 | jlp_znc | but I also know that I like qmail's configuration much much less |
| 21:32.51 | eightyeight | lennart is trying to improve the linux ecosystem, not worsen it |
| 21:33.20 | eightyeight | and it brings out the vocal, grumpy, resistent-to-change, minority, that thinks "linux is becoming more like micro$oft!" |
| 21:33.23 | levi | eightyeight: IIRC, your feelings on the systemd matter have changed a bit over time. |
| 21:33.29 | eightyeight | they have |
| 21:33.37 | jlp_znc | eightyeight: complete with $ |
| 21:33.38 | eightyeight | i was skeptical at first |
| 21:33.41 | levi | Which is completely reasonable, of course. |
| 21:33.46 | eightyeight | but, i've been running it on my workstation |
| 21:33.55 | eightyeight | and as i've gotten to know it, it's impressed me, actually |
| 21:34.17 | eightyeight | my biggest concern though, and it's still valid, is parsing the logging output from journald |
| 21:34.46 | eightyeight | i know the log is stored in binary, and i know that lennart plans on changing the internal binary format from version to version, and leaving it undocumented |
| 21:35.02 | eightyeight | as long as the printed output format remains largely unchanged, i'm good |
| 21:35.17 | eightyeight | also, i'm excited about a vixie crond(8) replacement |
| 21:35.22 | jlp_znc | I'm not fond of binary formatted log files |
| 21:35.29 | programmerq | coreos is pretty sweet. |
| 21:35.41 | levi | As far as I'm concerned, that's the correct technical decision with regard to logging. |
| 21:36.19 | eightyeight | it does seem though that getting data out of journald is slower than plain text log files |
| 21:36.22 | eightyeight | at least from what i've experienced |
| 21:36.28 | eightyeight | and by significant margins too |
| 21:36.59 | jlp_znc | makes me wonder how the log processing interview question(s) would change |
| 21:37.56 | eightyeight | i'm also not sure how i feel about systemd's timesync daemon |
| 21:38.12 | jlp_znc | does it use ntp? |
| 21:38.27 | eightyeight | aiui, it's a drop-in replacement. but i could be wrong. |
| 21:38.35 | eightyeight | http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019537.html |
| 21:38.44 | fadein | what I don't understand about journald (and perhaps someone here can explain to me) is why it's necessary when you could get the same benefit by making syslog write out to an SQLite db |
| 21:38.58 | eightyeight | "It implements an SNTP client" |
| 21:39.17 | eightyeight | so, i'm guessing there will finally be a separation of an "ntp daemon" and an "ntp client"? |
| 21:39.45 | eightyeight | it does make sense to have a specific ntp client, without the daemon |
| 21:39.54 | levi | eightyeight: I think that's the idea. Plus, I think there were some race condition problems with time sync in the startup process. |
| 21:40.02 | eightyeight | if it's simpler in design, it could increase security, which is ++ |
| 21:40.06 | jlp_znc | huh. I don't see why you would want a distinction. don't people do peer-to-peer ntp on local networks any more? |
| 21:40.28 | levi | I also think the timesync component is a compile-time option. |
| 21:40.35 | eightyeight | jlp_znc: there isn't much benefit to local network peering versus just standard 'server blah' |
| 21:41.00 | eightyeight | with peering, there isn't increased time accuracies over using traditional servers |
| 21:41.18 | jlp_znc | I don't like this about systemd-timesync: focusing only on querying time from one remote server |
| 21:41.43 | jlp_znc | the beauty of ntp is that you can talk to multiple servers and pick the one you like best to chime with |
| 21:42.06 | eightyeight | yeah. it does mean you could blindly follow a wrong time server |
| 21:42.16 | eightyeight | but at the same time, the server likely is syncing from multiple upstreams |
| 21:42.18 | jlp_znc | I used to always run three ntp "servers" for a network... each talking to two different upstreams and peering with each other |
| 21:42.38 | levi | jlp_znc: That is perhaps a bit overkill? |
| 21:42.41 | jlp_znc | then use broadcast or multicast ntp on the local network |
| 21:42.48 | eightyeight | i think peering only makes sense for latencies, and decrease bandwidth costs |
| 21:42.50 | jlp_znc | I'm kind of a stickler for correct time :-) |
| 21:42.59 | eightyeight | but then, ntp doesn't exactly use a lot af bandwidth |
| 21:43.17 | eightyeight | i connect to 10 upstream servers, which is the ntp calculation max |
| 21:43.30 | eightyeight | and let ntp workout which is the best source for time synchronization |
| 21:44.50 | levi | jlp_znc: See IEEE 1588 then. :) |
| 21:44.57 | jxqz | jlp_znc: yeah, start hating leanheart like eightyeight! |
| 21:45.02 | jxqz | or whatever |
| 21:45.26 | jxqz | I'm not going to read this backlog (I turn around and then the argument goes on without me) |
| 21:45.33 | jxqz | unfortunately I have something real to do now |
| 21:45.35 | eightyeight | hates all the people |
| 21:46.35 | jlp_znc | levi: nice. |
| 21:47.14 | levi | The systemd journal format was apparently designed for extremely efficient journal writes. Which seems to me where you ought to be optimizing, considering that you are logging things like web server hits. |
| 21:48.08 | levi | It's also designed for efficient single-writer, multiple-reader concurrency. |
| 21:49.55 | levi | Also, being a binary format, it allows applications to log arbitrary data. |
| 21:52.04 | fadein | hmmm |
| 21:52.20 | jxqz | can it log the first two measures of Beethoven's 5th symphony? |
| 21:52.28 | jxqz | or a cat gif? |
| 21:52.37 | jxqz | taunts |
| 21:52.48 | levi | Why would the answer be no? |
| 21:52.52 | fadein | jxqz: "arbitrary" |
| 21:53.01 | jxqz | why not would the answer be yes? |
| 21:53.11 | jxqz | is arbitrary data good logging information? |
| 21:54.26 | jxqz | thinks logs should only be recorded in dactylic hexameter |
| 21:54.35 | jxqz | like an ancient greek epic |
| 21:56.05 | youtah | Okay... I have an SSH Keys Newb question |
| 21:56.14 | T4rku5 | go |
| 21:56.22 | youtah | Say I had an ssh key generated on a workstation with the name of "nachos" |
| 21:56.27 | youtah | and now nachos is all gone |
| 21:56.44 | youtah | so I had backed up the .ssh dir for nachos onto a thumb drive |
| 21:56.59 | youtah | and now I want to import and put those same ssh keys back into my new workstation called "bacon" |
| 21:57.05 | youtah | (note the name change) |
| 21:57.27 | youtah | are there any issues/problems I need to be aware of? |
| 21:57.39 | jlp_znc | youtah: no |
| 21:57.53 | fungus | as long as your directory permissions are correct, no. |
| 21:57.57 | T4rku5 | it checks to see if the key is there, not the name |
| 21:58.09 | T4rku5 | if you have the key, you have your 'in' |
| 21:58.19 | youtah | So do I just open my id_rs.pub and change the workstation name at the end? |
| 21:58.50 | fungus | If you feel like it. totally optional |
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| 21:59.08 | jlp_znc | I still have a key from when I worked at regence, where the key name is r609804, and even one where the key name is jlp@whizbang.com (from whizbang labs) |
| 21:59.10 | fungus | It's only a comment, it could be "mashed potatoes" |
| 21:59.36 | youtah | Perfect |
| 21:59.37 | youtah | thanks |
| 21:59.53 | youtah | So really just to help me keep my keys straight |
| 22:00.03 | youtah | was looking at his id_rsa.pub btw |
| 22:01.09 | youtah | I am also assuming I can just drop my id_rsa and id_rsa.pub into the ~/.ssh dir, restart the machine and walla! |
| 22:01.39 | fungus | no need to restart |
| 22:01.48 | youtah | bounce the service? |
| 22:01.51 | fungus | nope |
| 22:02.51 | youtah | just ssh-add? |
| 22:02.56 | youtah | and the agent automagically handles it? |
| 22:03.00 | youtah | this is too easy |
| 22:03.11 | fungus | pretty much |
| 22:03.50 | youtah | This has been a good exercise |
| 22:03.53 | fungus | ssh-add is only needed to pre-load your key. Usually not necessary either |
| 22:03.57 | youtah | I have never had to "restore" keys before |
| 22:04.10 | eightyeight | ssh keys are cheap |
| 22:04.28 | eightyeight | there is no reason why not to have a unique ssh key for every ssh client |
| 22:04.40 | eightyeight | and when the client dies, if you lost the keys, meh. just regen, and send over |
| 22:05.28 | eightyeight | gpg keys, on the other hand, are not cheap, if you care and/or participate in the web of trust |
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| 22:08.30 | youtah | oh yuck |
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| 22:09.19 | youtah | fedoras install hash the alias ll='ls -sl' and not -asl |
| 22:09.29 | youtah | bash* |
| 22:10.03 | eightyeight | by and large, i'm not a fan of default aliases. definitely if '-a' is passed to ls(1) |
| 22:10.28 | jxqz | what about ls(1.1)? |
| 22:14.42 | harleypig | What -A ? |
| 22:14.52 | harleypig | s/What/What about/ |
| 22:15.14 | youtah | WhAt About -A? |
| 22:16.43 | eightyeight | $ alias la="ls -a" |
| 22:16.46 | eightyeight | might be a better fit |
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| 22:18.11 | youtah | I wanna see the permissions |
| 22:18.32 | eightyeight | $ alias la="ls -al" |
| 22:18.33 | youtah | has eaten way too many sun flower seeds |
| 22:18.42 | youtah | ^ that is better |
| 22:18.46 | youtah | the s is... eh |
| 22:19.05 | youtah | one more column |
| 22:19.54 | jlp_znc | my "ls" aliases: alias la='ls -aC'; alias laf='ls -aFC'; alias lf='ls -FC'; alias ls='ls -C'; alias ll='ls -al' |
| 22:20.27 | eightyeight | $ alias lh='ls -hlrS' |
| 22:20.29 | jlp_znc | -s prints the size of the file in blocks |
| 22:21.04 | jlp_znc | I sometimes use ls -i, hardly ever ls -s |
| 22:22.08 | Oberon4278 | youtah: Enjoy the gastrointestinal repercussions of the sunflower seeds. |
| 22:23.01 | youtah | I fixed it for you jlp_znc |
| 22:23.03 | youtah | alias la='ls -als'; alias laf='la'; alias lf='laf'; alias ll='lf' |
| 22:23.40 | jlp_znc | gee, thanks, youtah |
| 22:23.44 | youtah | Oberon4278, I eat sunflower seeds like there is no tomorrow. never had any issues |
| 22:23.45 | youtah | lol |
| 22:23.49 | youtah | like that? |
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| 22:47.15 | jxqz | alias ls=rm |
| 22:47.26 | youtah | :) |
| 22:47.35 | jxqz | shellshock |
| 22:53.48 | youtah | is finally using github for his random stuff |
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