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| 06:38.57 | levi | TodPunk: No, I can't believe people pay for hipchat either. |
| 06:39.33 | TodPunk | I like my IRC, but I'd like to have all my communications in one interface, to be honest. $5/month for that seems reasonable to me |
| 06:40.17 | levi | Because all previous attempts to do that have worked so well... |
| 06:43.13 | levi | I mean, I sometimes think that too, but SAAS needs to die in a fire. |
| 06:43.58 | levi | Or at least grow a better client than @#%@% web pages. |
| 06:46.10 | TodPunk | I totally agree |
| 06:46.36 | TodPunk | (hipchat and slack are both rich apps for all features, mind you) |
| 06:46.56 | TodPunk | I'd rather have something built on open standards that can be installed on my own server with my own domain, and interop with everyone elses |
| 06:47.03 | TodPunk | but I haven't invented it yet |
| 06:47.12 | levi | When you say "rich apps" you mean "runs on the web *and* your phone"? |
| 06:47.27 | TodPunk | no, I mean it's actual code running on your desktop |
| 06:47.41 | TodPunk | not just a thing wrapper to a webpage like Tweetdeck or something |
| 06:47.45 | TodPunk | *thin |
| 06:47.53 | levi | Well, that's something. |
| 06:48.39 | levi | But yeah, we've got email and shared drives and chat clients and servers already. |
| 06:50.06 | levi | The fact that hipchat and slack can make money in this space speaks to the glaring incompetence of corporate IT departments. And the fact that software these days is generally terrible, too. |
| 06:55.14 | TodPunk | ugh, IT departments |
| 06:55.50 | TodPunk | I used to be in IT more than dev. I left it because I was the only one that gave a damn about how anything worked rather than just wanting to run through tutorials and look how cool the running raid array was in benchmarks. |
| 06:56.42 | TodPunk | Larger companies always steal the sysadmins that are worth their salt, mind you, so I often worked with the dregs in that world. This is not indicative of all sysadmins |
| 07:09.09 | levi | Larger companies that haven't outsourced their IT, anyway. |
| 07:09.32 | Sargun | levi: SaaS has a thick client. |
| 07:09.40 | Sargun | er, not SaaS |
| 07:09.46 | Sargun | but, Hipchat |
| 07:09.56 | TodPunk | Having worked for more than one outsourced IT company, I don't know why anyone would ever outsource it |
| 07:09.59 | levi | I don't care, it's called hipchat. |
| 07:10.12 | TodPunk | levi: hipchat with me |
| 07:10.15 | TodPunk | you know you want to |
| 07:11.27 | Sargun | How do you do email? Do you not use gmail? |
| 07:11.39 | levi | gmail is not called "hipchat" |
| 07:12.04 | Sargun | I mean - RE: SaaS. |
| 07:12.07 | TodPunk | it used to have "Buzz" |
| 07:12.33 | levi | Buzz is also not called "hipchat" |
| 07:12.43 | levi | There's nothing "hip" about chat software. |
| 07:13.00 | Sargun | I also dislike HipChat, not for the name, but the dramatic lack of stability. |
| 07:14.05 | levi | No one who could write decent software would actually try to start a company around chat software, much less one called "hipchat". |
| 07:14.26 | levi | I mean, it's a bit insulting. |
| 07:14.57 | levi | People who write software write chat servers to try out a new language or something. |
| 07:14.58 | Sargun | Whatsapp? |
| 07:15.50 | Sargun | What's app's backend is fairly good quality software. |
| 07:15.55 | levi | We also don't get filthy stinking rich, because pandering to the lowest common denominator just doesn't occur to us. |
| 07:16.11 | levi | And, realize, that by "us" I mostly mean me. |
| 07:16.36 | levi | But whatever. I guess there's a market for this tripe. |
| 07:16.41 | TodPunk | Sargun: I'm going to call bullshit on that |
| 07:16.47 | Sargun | TodPunk: why |
| 07:17.14 | TodPunk | Whatsapp was written by one guy |
| 07:17.23 | levi | When someone says that some software is fairly good quality, calling bullshit is always a good bet. |
| 07:17.25 | Sargun | mostly one guy, not only one guy. |
| 07:17.34 | TodPunk | originally, one guy |
| 07:17.50 | TodPunk | like Facebook, anyone else inherited that guy's app |
| 07:18.12 | Sargun | They've talked at great lengths, even pre-acquisition, about their architecture |
| 07:18.16 | TodPunk | He wrote it as a project to learn something I can't recall, but I think it was app dev |
| 07:18.16 | Sargun | It seems reasonable. |
| 07:18.37 | Sargun | Erlang/OTP |
| 07:18.37 | TodPunk | reasonable I can agree with |
| 07:18.50 | TodPunk | "fairly good quality software" I can't |
| 07:19.03 | TodPunk | I'm sure it's hipsterism all over the place |
| 07:19.05 | Sargun | What do you call good quality software? |
| 07:19.10 | TodPunk | probably written on a macbook over coffee |
| 07:19.15 | Sargun | Erlang/OTP is a hipsterism? |
| 07:19.42 | levi | Good quality software is seL4. |
| 07:19.44 | TodPunk | at 1:20AM it sure as hell is |
| 07:20.02 | TodPunk | but seriously, it's chat |
| 07:20.21 | Sargun | Erlang/OTP runs the AXD301s. |
| 07:20.25 | TodPunk | that's like saying a blog software is good quality. What the hell else could it be? |
| 07:20.39 | TodPunk | Wordpress, that's what |
| 07:20.49 | Sargun | levi: Hm, do you think all software should be provable / proven? |
| 07:21.23 | levi | Sargun: To a much larger degree than it is today, sure. |
| 07:21.31 | Sargun | Hm |
| 07:22.00 | Sargun | I don't know how I feel about TLA+ / Coq |
| 07:22.21 | levi | TLA+ has absolutely nothing to do with Coq. |
| 07:22.44 | levi | Aside from both being fine tools. |
| 07:22.59 | Sargun | No, but they're both systems to build better (verified) software. |
| 07:24.11 | levi | TLA+ is a specification language. Coq is a proof assistant. You could use either of them to help write better software, among all sorts of other tools that people fail to use. |
| 07:24.26 | Sargun | Those are the two I've poked at. |
| 07:24.55 | TodPunk | hopes to one day write good quality software, but he'll have to be independently wealthy and stuff before that happens |
| 07:25.08 | levi | But you could also use TLA+ to specify hardware systems, or any other sort of temporally-changing system that needed precise specification. |
| 07:25.13 | Sargun | Or, work in a distributed systems group somewhere like FB |
| 07:25.56 | levi | Coq is used more often to write math proofs than anything else, I'd wager. |
| 07:26.30 | Sargun | You can also use Coq to do code synthesis |
| 07:26.33 | Sargun | in Haskell / OCaml / Erlang |
| 07:27.27 | levi | I don't thing FB would be willing to take the time to verify anything to the level that seL4 has been, but at least they're moving some terrible stuff in the direction of being somewhat less terrible. |
| 07:27.37 | TodPunk | goddam hipsters and their erlang |
| 07:28.33 | levi | Sargun: I know what you can use Coq for. |
| 07:28.49 | levi | Erlang was cool before the damned dirty hipsters. |
| 07:28.52 | Sargun | lol |
| 07:29.08 | levi | Remember the Erlang Movie? |
| 07:29.17 | Sargun | YES |
| 07:29.21 | Sargun | It's amazing. |
| 07:29.38 | levi | These guys were clearly *not* hipsters. Totally un-ironic. |
| 07:30.20 | Sargun | erlang isn't a hipster language, IMHO |
| 07:30.24 | levi | People who do the firmware for telecom switches know about software quality. |
| 07:30.50 | Sargun | yep |
| 07:30.57 | levi | Sargun: Being a hipster language is not necessarily an innate property of the language. |
| 07:31.07 | levi | Ruby was not always a hipster language either. |
| 07:31.28 | Sargun | The community around Erlang |
| 07:32.04 | levi | It used to just be this weird little scripting language that nice people wrote scripts with, led by a mild-mannered Japanese dude who liked perl and smalltalk. |
| 07:32.05 | TodPunk | dude, Ruby isn't even a language, it's a travesty |
| 07:32.20 | Sargun | uh |
| 07:32.23 | Sargun | TodPunk: based on what? |
| 07:32.24 | TodPunk | A travesty headed by rails |
| 07:32.30 | TodPunk | Sargun: based on my hate of Ruby |
| 07:32.35 | Sargun | TodPunk: So, what do you like? |
| 07:33.06 | TodPunk | Jalapeno Cheddar Cheetos, several Uinta beers, um... The Legend of Zelda |
| 07:33.41 | Sargun | uh |
| 07:33.45 | Sargun | I mean, in software |
| 07:34.09 | levi | What is there to like in software? It's all terrible. |
| 07:34.17 | TodPunk | I have fond feelings towards Battletoads |
| 07:35.41 | TodPunk | Java that isn't Othere People's Java is pretty nice sometimes, but it lives in a fairly useless bubble. I like Forth. Python can be pretty good. OCaml seems like it might be kind of fun. |
| 07:35.57 | TodPunk | I need to get over the fact that OCaml is french, though |
| 07:36.21 | levi | Standard ML, man. |
| 07:36.49 | levi | Accept no French substitutes! |
| 07:37.19 | TodPunk | oh, Ada |
| 07:37.22 | levi | Sure, it's a bit minimal, but it's formally specified! |
| 07:37.27 | TodPunk | Ada has some strong points |
| 07:37.59 | levi | I want to like Ada, but I haven't written any programs with it, so I'm not certain that I will. |
| 07:38.23 | TodPunk | One does not like Ada for Ada, but for writing software to reliably control a missile |
| 07:39.05 | levi | Haskell is fun, but also far from perfection. |
| 07:39.16 | TodPunk | I hear you're going to teach me Haskell |
| 07:39.42 | levi | Sure, I'll teach anyone Haskell. |
| 07:40.10 | levi | I was just reading the Haskell Report today, and a few papers and tutorials about type inference algorithms. |
| 07:40.31 | TodPunk | Lambda Lounge |
| 07:40.37 | TodPunk | I'm totes going to be there |
| 07:40.41 | TodPunk | You will teach me |
| 07:41.08 | TodPunk | You will also likely make fun of me for doing this on Windows |
| 07:41.31 | levi | Nah, Windows is fine. I actually need to reboot into Windows, but I'm putting it off. |
| 07:41.44 | TodPunk | I need to go to bed, but I'm putting that off |
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| 07:48.26 | levi | Well, that too. I've got a plane to catch tomorrow. |
| 07:48.52 | TodPunk | Then I shall assist you, I'm going to bed, you should too, GO! |
| 07:48.56 | TodPunk | sleeps |
| 07:49.21 | levi | Just had to make sure that the Windows partition still worked and that I can edit Office docs in it. |
| 08:07.29 | levi | Aaaagh, I hate Word. |
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| 23:05.01 | harleypig | youtah: Your comment on my picture on fb ... if my extended family weren't able to see that I would have made some nasty commetns!! :D |